Greyslayer
01/24/03 09:10 AM
216.14.192.226
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If that wasn't fixed then dare say about 50% of your armies will consist of jump SRM infantry with infernos instead of the standard one or two platoons you usually field  .
So essentially the argument is over how lazy fasa/FP have been regarding the minimum ranges of Clan LRMs or if in fact they were truly lazy in fixing them up to start with?
Seeing as how the clan mechs were extensively tested prior to release (as was seen with the original clan mechs being weakened alot from their original incarnations) one would think something like this would've been picked up early there. Not only though does the weapons stats reside on the weapons table in the construction area of a rulebook though but on each mech.... so essentially to me this would say, was the error after they had decided on the original mechs or before? It would be no good changing the balance of mechs only to stuff up the stats for the weapons.
Greyslayer
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BA_Evans
01/24/03 09:53 AM
65.194.182.3
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When you use Clan LRM's, do you use them in their long range support role or do you prefer to use them up close?
I have only piloted one Clan Machine, the MadCat Primary (battlefield salvage). I actually preferred using the LRM's up close because of their low heat output compared to their high damage potential. Much better than using the ER Large Lasers up close.
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Apoc
01/26/03 03:51 AM
67.224.53.69
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BattleTech Tatical Handbook, pg 48...Level Three Rule, Hotloading LRMS
The minimum range of LRMs under standard rules reflects the time required for the missles' internal guidance system to lock onto their targets and for their explosive pyalods to arm. Hot-loading rules enable a player to arm the warheads of LRMs before the missiles are fired, and so hot-loaded LRMs have no minimum range modifer.
However, hot-loaded LRMs usually are not as accurate as standard LRMs. When resolving damage from a flight of hot-loaded LRMs, the attacking player rolls 3D6. Use the two lowest results to determine the hits on the standard Missile Hits Table....
Simply put, Inner Sphere LRMs hotloaded are armed in the tubes(having the chance to explode if the launcher is hit), have no minimum and are slightly inaccurate. The Clan being more technologicly advanced, have inproved on this system. LRMs are armed right after leaving the tubes(no exploding possible) without the inaccuracy problem.
That's the only way I can think of it. I honestly think the Clan LRM's should of have a reduced minimum of 3 or 4 instead of none.
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Vapor
01/26/03 05:11 AM
202.128.69.122
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I disagree with your statement. In order for a missile to be considered "hot-loaded," it would have to be armed before it went into the ammo-bin. Clan missiles do not have any danger of exploding inside the launcher if the launcher is hit, so they can't be hot-loaded.
I prefer to think that the Clans use something similar to a bore-sight lock on their missiles, ie. when a flight of missiles is launched, just prior to the missiles leaving the racks, the launcher provides the target-lock to the missiles so they already have a lock when they leave the launcher. And it would be a relatively simple matter to set the missiles to arm the moment they clear the launcher, thus eliminating the minimum range. Why IS technicians haven't copied this yet, I have no clue. IS missiles should have a reduced minimum range, by now.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Cray
01/26/03 07:45 PM
65.32.253.120
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In reply to:
In order for a missile to be considered "hot-loaded," it would have to be armed before it went into the ammo-bin. Clan missiles do not have any danger of exploding inside the launcher if the launcher is hit, so they can't be hot-loaded.
Yeah, maybe they arm themselves when they move into the missile tube instead of when they're loaded into the ammo bin.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Warner_Doles
01/26/03 08:41 PM
209.107.201.212
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- Yeah, maybe they arm themselves when they move into the missile tube instead of when they're loaded into the ammo bin.'
Actually Mike this would be an electrical and / or electronic safety interlock that has to be over-ridden by the MechWarrior. They remove the arming limitation interlock by over-ridding it at the Fire Control. It couldn't be a mechanical safety interlock because you'd have to remove each and everyone while in the ammo bin. I do not think anyone would want to be marching around, not counting combat, with an ammo bin of hot ordnance reading to detonate.
An example is like our Mk 48 Torpedo and the Mk 48 ADCAP we use in the Submarine Fleet. The weapons have minimum range to arm. That's purely for safety of ship. It’s the same here for the LRMs. They have the minimum range to arm for safety of the ‘Mech. I know it would suck to have a full flight of LRMs do a come back on you right after firing because their gyros were bad or they had some really bad targeting data and you were selected as the target instead of firing platform! 
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Vapor
01/27/03 03:43 AM
202.128.73.148
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In reply to:
Yeah, maybe they arm themselves when they move into the missile tube instead of when they're loaded into the ammo bin.
Actually, Maximum Tech specifically states that the missiles have to be armed before they are loaded in the ammo-bins (for 'Mechs). You have to specify whether or not the missiles are hot-loaded before the beginning of the scenario, and then you can't change that option after the scenario starts.
Vehicles are the exception to this because they have a crew member(s) who load the missiles into the racks, and they can arm the missiles before loading them into the racks. So with vehicles you can switch between hot-loaded and standard LRM's, or vice versa, at the end of a turn.
There isn't really any greater amount of danger in having hot-loaded LRM's in the ammo-bins of a 'Mech, simply because a hit to the ammo-bin is going to blow up any missiles in there, regardless of whether or not they are hot-loaded. The danger comes into play if the launcher gets hit. In that case, any hot-loaded missiles in the launcher blow up, destroying the launcher and dealing the regular amount of damage for exploded munitions to the launcher's location.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Bob_Richter
01/27/03 11:01 AM
4.35.174.250
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-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/27/03 11:07 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Bob, Eric is not man enough to admit he was wrong.<<<
Eh. What else is new?
I, on the other hand, was attempting to argue an unpopular point without evidence. Not very smart of me, eh?
Thanks for the save.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/27/03 11:08 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>The munchkin in me is perfectly fine with min-less CLRMs. It makes whupping up on you ugly spheroids that much more fun..... At least for me..... <<<
Have to agree there.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
01/27/03 11:19 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I honestly think the Clan LRM's should of have a reduced minimum of 3 or 4 instead of none. <<<
I think they should have the full minimum range of 6. Clan LRMs are spiffy enough just being half the mass.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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SinOriginal
01/28/03 03:46 AM
158.222.228.186
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I see why one would think the IS min range should be dropped, but its not like the game is unbalanced because of it. And remember you can always use your own level 3 rules. Also I see the IS working on all these new ammo types I'm sure research has been done into new LRMs but i doubt they would be in widespred testing, i think hands are full with new autocannons, lasers and MRMs. Still ppl bring up good points about how technology would be improving. But by the same token why hasn't the overall range of LRMs been increased, hmmm? Or the damage per missile. Why improve the current system? Why not create a new and more powerful one?
Oh and one last theory... it might be cost ineffective to rework the LRMs to not have a min range... but reworking them to have a shorter min and increasing the cost might be a plausible change to the game.
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Greyslayer
01/28/03 06:46 PM
63.12.145.119
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The game was not really designed for 'progression'. Weapon systems remain the same or they create new ones with different names. The IS could create LRMs with no or changed minimum ranges but going on their convention it would not be a standard LRM launcher but a new launcher (example ILRM Launcher I = Improved), the stats may be different for such things as weight, criticals and even how much ammo is available to the new weapon systems though essentially the weapon does a similar job (a example would be medium lasers and er medium lasers, they could not simple say that medium lasers naturally progressed). If they say did a 'time-line' jump then yes the Standard LRM launcher in a future time could be one without a minimum range or a Medium Laser with the basic stats similar to that of a ER Medium Laser, but because it is a progressive time-line it wouldn't work.
Greyslayer
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TJHairball
02/06/03 06:52 PM
152.10.182.229
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Yah. Clan LRMs having NO min range when IS LRMs and even clan ACs do is a bit cheesy.
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Karagin
01/17/07 12:28 PM
70.123.166.36
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Sorry the poll is old but we can still talking about this...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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sdog
01/21/07 01:37 PM
139.174.165.124
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what was the result of the poll?
I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...
- Skaven, ArmA modding community
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Karagin
01/21/07 05:47 PM
70.123.166.36
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It tied out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Askhati
02/22/07 04:16 AM
155.232.128.10
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The lack of a minimum range on the Clan LRM means that most people (and I speak under correction) will favour the LRM over the SRM (when building Clan) for the simple reason that the LRM has a much better range than the SRM, and no minimum range penalty to give the SRM a competitive edge.
Evolve or DIE!
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Toontje
02/22/07 07:19 AM
131.155.85.19
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ATM even better in that regard..
Rather to blow up, then.
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NewPharoah_Max
02/23/07 03:09 PM
207.160.205.13
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Quote:
The game was not really designed for 'progression'.
Total Warfare book p. 11 says "dynamic universe with progressing story lines".
Greetings to you too.
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Karagin
02/23/07 11:27 PM
70.123.166.36
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Progressing story line doesn't mean the tech changes or makes sense, it means it has an interesting and detailed universe that changes and keeps folks interested with it's rich background etc...
Also it's good to see that you have the new rule book, so you can see that LAMs are dead as far as normal play is concered. Good luck getting Randal to change that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Toontje
02/24/07 02:33 PM
84.31.236.100
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I think in upcoming 3039 it is shown nicely with the HK missiles; A small chance, then another change that nullifies the previous change. (as from the preview)
Thus all statistics remain the same. The universe may change, tech may even change, but the net effect on the battlefield is negligable.
Also, do not forget the production standpoint; produce well standardised equipment, or experiment on your own, with a risk of losing 20-30% of your market share due to incompatibility. And with the vastness of the IS, the momentum of set standards is huge.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Sasuga
11/21/16 12:32 PM
99.108.227.57
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The IS LRM Minimum is not a matter of technology. The IS LRM Minimum is a matter of mentality. The clanners are not concerned about being shot in the back by an ally, while the IS is.
The IS do have better trained pilots at the time of the invasion, that was a major part of how they halted the clan invasion in the first place... But not all IS pilots are as well trained as those experts who brought the clans to a stand-still. Those experts were brought together for that purpose (well, there was some luck involved too, initially... the grand story is a bit more, but keeping this simple.)
The outer planets did not have as well trained pilots, and the IS is always bringing in new pilots to replace old ones. The clan assumes every pilot has been put through years and years of training, which they have since birth, and thus knows how to use their weapons properly. (Really, the clan pilots should be better trained, but the game usually gives IS better pilots to balance out for the tech. - You could argue the clan became dependent on their tech, or whatever. Also, the clan mentality was to fight in small groups or even solo pilots vs. small groups or solo pilots in an open field. Sort of like the British vs. the Americans in the revolutionary war. Anyway....)
So, the IS doesn't want the LRMs to blow up on allies, so they set a minimum range into them. It actually requires a little bit more technology to put that distance tracker inside the rockets then it does for clanners who don't use it.
I seem to recall there being advanced rules somewhere for "Hot-Firing" LRMs, even as IS. I would think you'd have to modify the ammo before battle (in the Battletech Universe anyway. In Real life, Mechs would likely carry few missiles instead of bunches, and the missiles would be super accurate like Javalins and probably take most Mechs out in one hit, or two.)
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Cray
11/22/16 06:19 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
Sasuga writes:
The IS LRM Minimum is not a matter of technology. The IS LRM Minimum is a matter of mentality. The clanners are not concerned about being shot in the back by an ally, while the IS is.
It is a matter of technology. The Inner Sphere struggled to reduce the minimum range of LRMs with the Enhanced LRM, which only could drop the minimum range to 3 with "more sophisticated arming mechanisms to improve its targeting and tracking in close combat." --see p. 326 Tactical Operations.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
11/23/16 01:16 AM
66.74.61.223
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This goes back to the question of whether innersphere and clan munitions can be used in the others weapons. I have not seen where they say definitively either is correct. This may have been addressed, and I forgot it, but there is issues with how things work in the game because of it.
In the novels, video games, and adventure packs, they have raids on enemy depots. If the tech is different, then why bother trying to take much from the depot? Just destroy it.
The lrms is a good example of this.
The clan launchers are half the weight due to advance construction and materials in them, yet they use the same sized munitions, otherwise the shots per ton would be different. It is suggested that they have used IS munitions in them without any modification needed. So is it the launcher that does this, or did they leave a gaping hole in the rules?
Had the same questions about cannon ammo. The clans go further, yet they supposedly use the same munitions as the IS. The IS raided the munitions of the clans but without the clan weapons, the shots didn't go as far? I will grant some leeway with targeting factors, but the munitions determine range, not the firing unit. The one exception is the gauss line of weapons, as the magnetic coils provide the power to send the shot out, not the propellant used by cannon shells.
As for the accuracy issue, we had a talk about that. Basically, if the game used real life munitions, there would be no need for mechs, as they would not survived landing on a planet for long. Every gun that could reach them would destroy them and the drop ship before they even debarked.
Best guess is they basically made bottle rockets to save on costs. Same with the rest of the weapons. But that was in another thread.
So how much damage does an explosive tipped arrow do to mech armor?
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Drasnighta
11/23/16 01:39 PM
79.141.163.14
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In one of the RPGs, I saw it fell an AS7-D......
Of course, it was one of those situations where the percentile said it did 1 point of BT Scale damage... Then proceeded to Roll a Hit Location of 2... 12 for Criticals, and blow out 3 Engines....
But, Y.know.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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