Voidshape
09/15/09 04:50 PM
209.234.42.162
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BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: AllSleep
Tech: Clan / 3132
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 100 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 400 XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: 3 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 90 meters
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
11 Medium Pulse Lasers
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
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Type/Model: AllSleep
Mass: 100 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 152 pts Endo Steel 7 5.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 4 LA, 3 RA)
Engine: 400 XL Fusion 10 26.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 3
Heat Sinks: 22 Double [44] 12 12.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LA, 1 RA, 2 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Gyro: 4 4.00
Cockpit, Life Supt.: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA R: Sh+UA 12 .00
Armor Factor: 307 pts Ferro-Fibrous 7 16.00
(Armor Crit Loc: 4 LA, 3 RA)
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 31 46
Center Torso (Rear): 16
L/R Side Torso: 21 32/32
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 10/10
L/R Arm: 17 34/34
L/R Leg: 21 42/42
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
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5 Medium Pulse Lasers RT 20 5 10.00
5 Medium Pulse Lasers LT 20 5 10.00
1 Medium Pulse Laser HD 4 1 2.00
1 Targeting Computer LT 5 5.00
3 Standard Jump Jets: 3 6.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 1 RT, 2 CT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 44 76 99.50
Crits & Tons Left: 2 .50
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 28,217,334 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,172
Cost per BV: 8,895.75
Weapon Value: 9,912 / 9,912 (Ratio = 3.12 / 3.12)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 77; MRDmg = 47; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 4, Armor/Structure: 8/6
Damage PB/M/L: 11/9/-, Overheat: 0
Class: MA; Point Value: 32
New to the game... And little obsessed.
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Lafeel
09/15/09 06:01 PM
157.157.185.29
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Not quite as ouch now that they've nerfed the pulse lasers tc combo.
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Voidshape
09/16/09 09:57 AM
209.234.42.162
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What is this nerfing of which you speak?
New to the game... And little obsessed.
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Lafeel
09/16/09 03:35 PM
157.157.185.29
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I mean you can no longer target a individual location using the targeting computer and get the -2 bonus to hit with the pulse lasers.
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Voidshape
09/17/09 04:03 PM
209.234.42.162
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Oh, right. Called shots suck anyway. And who needs to call a shot with 11 med pulse lasers? My chances of hitting any one location are still good.
In my version of Heavy Metal Pro, this Mech has the highest Battle Value. Anyone have a higher BV mech?
New to the game... And little obsessed.
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Lafeel
09/17/09 05:51 PM
157.157.185.29
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Can't say I've seen ones with higher BV no, not apart from severly munched level 3's, of course.
Edit: And as far as I can see there's no level 3 tech on this design. Mind pointing it out to me, mate?
Edited by Lafeel (09/17/09 05:56 PM)
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Voidshape
09/22/09 11:02 AM
209.234.42.162
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To be honest, I just select "level 3" in Heavy Metal Pro when I build. Not sure what would be level 3 tech. Actually, I just went into HMP and selected Level 2, and it didn't change a thing. So I guess it's a level 2 tech mech.  (I'm new to the game)
What "severely munched" designs are you talking about? I'm curious.
New to the game... And little obsessed.
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Lafeel
09/22/09 12:38 PM
157.157.185.29
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Let's see..Almost anything using a weapon designed another player and not the powers that be (very rare exeptions)
Anything mounting a XXL engine (they'd be wayy too expensive to be worth it) then adding hardened armor on top of that to try to cut down on it's fragility.
And those are just the ones I can remember on the top of my head.
edit: this would fit the bill nicely, but I suspect he did it on purpose
Edited by Lafeel (09/22/09 12:41 PM)
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Karagin
09/22/09 12:43 PM
72.178.75.99
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Munched Designs are the ones that have enough heat sinks to fire everything all day and never build any heat no matter what your movement is.
Along those same lines are the ones that have nothing but Pulse Lasers and Targeting Computers, though The Powers That Be (TPTB) have changed the rules and now this is less annoying. Or you have the ones who make a mech that has Triple Strength Myomer, Dual Hatchets, Target Computers for the Direct fire weapons, full armor and moves the fastest for its' class and then they want to put a pilot in this mech who is either a Gunnery of a 1 as well a 1 Pilot or even worse a 0/0 for pilot and gunnery skills.
Or you have a mech that has every new toy that can be fit on the frame and it some how can actually use all of them without any negative side effects.
What it comes down to is this, mechs have flaws other wise what would be the point of having battles if every machine is perfect?
The book mechs, aka the canon designs, are all built with a few flaws, sure they can be improved on, but really they don't need to always fixed. If you find that your home made mech can beat every book mech, then you may want to start over on the designs. Some folks will let custom or home made mechs in a game, other will as long as it is not to over the top.
Designing can be fun and we all have mechs that we would never use because we know they are munchy and ruin the fun for a lot of folks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
09/22/09 07:56 PM
123.2.140.247
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Quote:
Munched Designs are the ones that have enough heat sinks to fire everything all day and never build any heat no matter what your movement is.
Now Karagin, this is not munchy it's good design practice. Your other points are valid but having enought heat sinks to fire all weapons and move should come standard on all mechs.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
09/23/09 12:25 AM
72.178.75.99
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It is munchy as all hell. A decent mech design does not need to have enough heat sinks to fire everything, it means you learn to fire the weapons so as to do the damage and get out of the enemies range. Having the ability to stand there and dish out damage and NOT use any tactical thinking isn't good design practice it is a foolish results of the flaws of someone wanting to win at all cost and fun of the other player(s).
Munchkins want to win, they do not care about the game9s) they are playing or if they are ruining said game(s) for anyone else. These same folks do not have any tactical ability beyond running or jumping the mech right up to the other side and blasting away, so where is the fun in that for other side? Tell me how you would enjoy having to play against someone like that in a game or at a convention, how soon before it becomes pointless to play since unless you copy their inability to play with out using the loop holes to win, it is always going to be you losing and their uber toys walking off the field with another win.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
09/23/09 02:57 AM
123.2.140.247
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NOT being able to move and fire at the same time limits your tatical abilities.
If i have the ability to jump and fire with everything and suffer minor to no heat issues then it's an option more of the time.
Also look at almost every L2+ canon design... heat is one of the things they all try to get rid of so they can move and shoot with no issues (L2 hunchback anyone, 13 DHS with an AC20 and minor backup weapons... I would have left it at 10 DHS and added more AC ammo myself).
What I'm saying it that having the ability to move AND fire with no heat means i'll be moving more often... with many canon designs you have to "stand there and dish out damage and NOT use any tactical thinking"
because you don't have the heat to move as well.
I prefer hit and run tactics myself and with a TACTIC like that you need the extra heat sinks.
(For the record i like that tactic because it's actually harder to win then stand and shoot in 80% of BTech games. The game is designed to favor the boring stand and shoot options)
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Tripod
09/23/09 03:03 AM
192.94.94.105
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I'd take a Hussar with 10 single heat sinks vs this guy, would be fun... for me...not the guy piloting this mech
TBA
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LAMdriver
09/23/09 03:13 AM
68.118.31.98
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I can see both sides of the arguement. I agree with both of y'all on some of the points rasied, and greatly disagree with some of them.
First and foremost, I agree with ZC on the abilty to shoot and move. Your mech should be able to do just that. Period. If you over heat from just getting into place and firing your weapons that are in range, then you need to find a nice plott of dirt and reserve it for your casket if there is enough to fill one. This aspect is VITAL to warfare in the past, present, and future.
If you can get away with it by offerning up an Assualt mech to be a weapons magnet while your lighter units surround them, then it is good strategy if it works.
Now for the munchkins side of the debate. When I play something I like to win, you like to win, WE ALL LIKE TO WIN. If you are just playing with no real expectations of winning don't bother comming to the table. I want my oppoents to be the sneakiest, strategic, underhanded, brilliant that they can be to win the game we are playing. I might learn something new.
Now if I can use a custom design, I will. I much rather use an IS design that has not been made into a IIC model, and get it equipped with Clan tech weapons. I want the most bang for the buck. I also build to what I want the design to do. Now i have played with guys that are straight number crunchers and it got frustrating quick (75 tonner with 14 ER med lasers and enough DHS to Alpha strike every round...never doing that again!) but it is a style of play that is legitimate...much like camper in a 1st person shooter video game. When you play your going to come across these types of players. You deal, drink water and drive on, HOOAH! (sorry channeling my Drill Sgt from basic)
$00.02 C-Bill
" The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make some other bastard die for his!"--Patton
""War is Hell. Combat is a motherfucker."---General Tommy Franks
Edited by LAMdriver (09/23/09 04:21 AM)
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Zandel_Corrin
09/23/09 04:17 AM
123.2.140.247
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Now THAT (75T with 14 ER M LAS) is a munchy design. Munchy is more then just being able to fire and move at the same time.
BTW Tripod, Love those mechs in open terrain but watch those hilly or forested encounters the last time i tried that in hills my lance of hussars got the smackdown laid on them by a mixed lance of jenners and javerlins.... SRM + Jets + hills = OWNAGE
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Venom
09/23/09 04:28 AM
207.191.218.35
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I wonder, do Arab extremists think that our weapons are munchy?
The point of war is to win, not play a good game and everybody gets a trophy. Loosing sucks, as you have come to learn. Learn to win and you won't have to blame it on your very narrow definition of munch.
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Karagin
09/23/09 06:24 AM
72.178.75.99
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Then if you want to move and shoot, you need to learn or the player needs to learn to know what to shoot and when and how to get to where they can use the right weapons to do the needed damage to the enemy.
I am not saying a mech can't have enough heat sinks to fire its' weapons and stay cool, what I am saying is one that is never builds up any heat NO matter what it does for movement AND weapons fire. Most designs will build up heat one or two points 5 at the most from walking and firing. You can live with that and work around it, other designs build up a lot of heat, so you learn to combo the weapons firing order and thus get the max out of the mech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
09/23/09 08:27 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Quote:
Munched Designs are the ones that have enough heat sinks to fire everything all day and never build any heat no matter what your movement is.
Now Karagin, this is not munchy it's good design practice. Your other points are valid but having enought heat sinks to fire all weapons and move should come standard on all mechs.
Not really. There are some designs where sinking to alpha strike is just a waste of tonnage and holding back the maximum firepower. The Grasshopper comes to mind as an over-sinked design - I'd love to drop about 5 heat sinks to upgrade the weapons array. The Warlord and Penetrator show the value of having heat sinks for only one set of weapons at a time. Any 'mech with a heavy Inner Sphere LRM array and short ranged secondary weapons (e.g. medium lasers or SRMs) certainly doesn't need to be able to alpha strike.
Look what happens to the Penetrator if you try to give it enough heat sinks to fire all of its guns: you have to drop half of its ER LLs or half of its pulse lasers, leaving it with the firepower of a medium 'Mech.
Sometimes, alpha strike heat sink arrays just hold back the firepower of a design and compensate for poor heat management by the MechWarrior/player.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (09/23/09 08:34 AM)
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Tripod
09/23/09 11:15 AM
8.23.64.196
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"Munched Designs are the ones that have enough heat sinks to fire everything all day and never build any heat no matter what your movement is."
I thought that needed to be reworded too. It seems, open ended... A great number of 3025 lights fall into that statement : )
Has anyone else worked up a higher BV monster? I don't have the program or I would tinker with it...
TBA
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Karagin
09/23/09 11:35 AM
72.178.75.99
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Tripod you know what I meant, look at the designs that have nothing but high damage high heat weapons and not much else and all the heat sinks to fire all day, while running or jumping.
Would like to see a post of what I am talking about, would that help you guys get the hint?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
09/23/09 11:37 AM
72.178.75.99
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And if you Alpha with it, it shuts down...which means it's not a munchy mech in that sense, poorly made yes.
Really wish they had never given that option to the blasted computer version of Battletech...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
09/23/09 07:55 PM
123.2.140.247
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I think we both meant slightly different things than what we originally said Karagin.
Cray has hit the nail on the head... I should have worded my response better because i meant:
"Now Karagin, this is not munchy it's good design practice. Your other points are valid but having enough heat sinks to fire all weapons in a range bracket and move should come standard on all mechs."
My net browser shutdown when i was typing it the first time and it seems i left that part out the second time.
I'm not saying that an Archer needs the sinks to alpha strike.... just fire all it's LRMs OR MLas and move at the same time... though truth be told there are a few exceptions to that rule and the archer is one of them.
It doesn't need to be able to fire it's LRMs and move as much as other designs... (Warhammer should have enough sinks to fire both PPCs with no heat at the very least).
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
09/23/09 10:26 PM
72.178.75.99
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Firing the main weapons and not overheating is fine, firing EVERYTHING on the mech and still showing no heat even after running or jumping is what I am getting at that is munchy as all hell.
It is the idea that the mech must fire everything every turn that makes the munchkin must win at all cost player the anti-fun of this game. Like the old quote says, after being told that the game is about 14 century Italian politics and intrigue, the guy still wants to play a ninja.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
09/23/09 11:09 PM
123.2.140.247
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But what if the mech only has main guns? (Javerlin, cicada etc)
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
09/24/09 12:36 AM
72.178.75.99
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Javelin has what for weapons, a couple of lasers and a SRM...wow..so many things there...:rolleyes:
Seriously, you know the mechs I am talking about. I will post a design with what I am referring to since you do not seem to be following along.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Voidshape
09/25/09 03:41 PM
209.234.42.162
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So I guess my AllSleep is munchy?
I can see where fun could be ruined by this kind of design, for the other player. But I'm new to the game, and I take pride in designing what I see as effective war machines. Ostensibly, the pilots of these beasts are trying to win. And so am I. After having gone through the mech creation process by hand based on the Tech Manual, I looked over a few of the cannon mechs and thought I could improve on them. I'm sure we all think that, and it's fun, right? Doesn't anyone get that mad scientist gleam in their eyes and go "I can make this more deadly"?
However, I Do see the value of playing more underpowered mechs. My buddy and I were talking about this last night. I was lamenting the fact that ballistics pretty much suck VS energy weapons. i mean, ammo constraints, ammo explosions... So we decided that we are going to play a LOW tech game. We're going to limit ourselves to ICE power, damn near steampunk type mechs. No lasers. Ammo explosions are cool. I mean, if I want to WIN, and don't HAVE to deal with it, i won't. But if there are just no energy weapons around to be had, well, we ALL have to deal with ammo explosions, so cool, let's all blow up!
But, in a game where custom builds are allowed, and it's understood that everyone is playing to win, and THAT is where the fun is, the pure, universally understood relentless competition of it, why not use the most effective mech possible?
New to the game... And little obsessed.
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Karagin
09/25/09 03:45 PM
72.178.75.99
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If you just play to win then enjoy your style, others of us play for the enjoyment of the game in that we have a tactical problem to over come and solve, not just bash in the other side's head, but if win is your goal then again have fun at your style and I would recommend your getting the Solairs IV game books, it is there that your style of play comes into it's own.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Voidshape
09/25/09 03:54 PM
209.234.42.162
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Actually, this style of play is getting a little played out for me, which is why we're doing the low-tech type game. One other issue we have is that there are only two of us... Hard to do complex scenarios. But yeah, I'd actually really liek to limit things, or work toward scenarios.
New to the game... And little obsessed.
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Karagin
09/25/09 04:10 PM
72.178.75.99
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If you have the time and the money, you may want to check out Ebay, there you might find some of the old Scenario packs, they can give you a good number battles to fight out and they are pack full of interesting bits about the game universe. Some titles to look into More Tales of the Black Widow, Twycross, Rolling Thunder, Tales of the Black Windows, Fox's Teeth.
Hope this helps you out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Voidshape
09/25/09 04:38 PM
209.234.42.162
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Thanks!
New to the game... And little obsessed.
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