CYBRN4CR
02/13/10 01:44 AM
71.236.221.45
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These next series of threads examine some of my redesigned 3050 Clan mechs, and their potential utility among the Clans.
This thread examines my redesigned Mad Dog.
Stats are shown in MegaMek condensed style to reduce clutter.
Code:
Mad Dog Prime (Custom)
60 tons Clan TW
Movement: 4/6
Engine: 240 XL
Heat Sinks: 14 [28]
Internal: 99 (Endo Steel)
Armor: 192/201 (Ferro-Fibrous)
HD: 3 9
CT: 20 30 ( 7)
RT: 14 20 ( 7)
LT: 14 20 ( 7)
RA: 10 20
LA: 10 20
RL: 14 26
LL: 14 26
Large Pulse Laser [LA] 10 Heat
Large Pulse Laser [RA] 10 Heat
LRM 20 [LT] 6 Heat
LRM 20 [RT] 6 Heat
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [LT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [LT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [LT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [LT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [RT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [RT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [RT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [RT]
ECM Suite [HD]
Carrying Capacity:
One battle armor squad
BV: 2,214 Cost: 14,148,000 Cbills
I think it's pretty good. Can certainly perform it's functions better than the original. 
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Karagin
02/13/10 01:52 PM
80.149.45.102
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It is a fire support mech, the Naga does a much better job. Now against the Inner Sphere this works but they can counter this with fire support of their own.
You would be better off giving this jump jets if you can find away to fit them on there, you really don't need all the ammo you have given it, not for most of the typical battles.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/13/10 11:47 PM
71.236.221.45
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As far as I know, the Naga is the Clan's Arrow IV mech, and they don't like to use Arrow IV indirectly due to their views about warfare. What would be good for Clan Nagas to have is their own TAG so that pilots can attack their own targets. But they don't, thus Nagas can't make effective use of their own biggest weapons without help, which is virtually nonexistant as Clanners are more worried about their own firepower, than functioning as a team (which is the Inner Sphere's greatest strength).
Now the Mad Dog was meant to be a frontline missle mech, with pulse lasers as backup. I just enhanced its longevity, armor, and its heat management so that it can slug it out longer with all its intended weapons.
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Karagin
02/14/10 01:37 AM
80.149.45.102
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They don't like to play gang bang either and all of your designs are reflecting of that tactic. You really don't seem to understand Clan tactical thinking. They try to stay one on one for the most part, allowing each warrior to kill their targets, yes they do help each other out, but not to the point where 5 mechs are firing on one mech. The only time they go all out like that is if the other side does they same.
Enhanced it to the point of pushing into the realm of munchkin land.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/14/10 05:15 AM
71.236.221.45
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I don't know where you are getting the idea that I am advocating ganging up behavior for the Clans. I think you are going out on a limb there, as that is not my intention at all.
Picture this scenario: a Clan warrior in the canon Mad Dog prime varient. Normally with only 6 (I think) shots per launcher, they will have to be VERY conservative with their missiles, effectively reducing their overall firepower (as they only have the pulse lasers to rely on and even then the warrior can only fire the large ones without much heat issues). This turns those missile launchers into 12 tons (w/ ammo) of wasted tonnage, until they deem it necessary to fire those weapons. However, once those 6 shots per launcher are up, it's like the mech never had twin LRM 20s at that point. Not good in any sort of battle scenario OR Clan trial.
My design fixes these weaknesses. While I would have loved to put jumpjets on, the rule of 24 won out for the ammo. To do all this I reduced the engine rating, maxed the armor, removed the med pulse lasers and exchaned them for heatsinks, with just enough tonnage for 8 tons of ammo (24 shots per launcher). This makes for a much deadlier Mad Dog overall as now the pilot doesn't have to worry so much about running out of ammo. They can engage enemies one on one for FAR longer than the original ever could.
The Mad Dog can finally be an effective, standalone, mech.
Otherwise, I wouldn't even bother and get an all energy weapon variant. 
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Karagin
02/14/10 05:36 AM
80.149.45.102
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That is the point, the Clans fight conservative, they don't go blasting away just to show they can do so. They fight to show who is the better warrior, they do not turn the art of war in a paint by numbers style like you are wanting to do with your improvements.
Your mechs fit the Inner Sphere style of fight, that means two or more mechs blasting away at several targets as they come into range or once their buddies have soften them up.
You seem to be confusing the two styles and trying to merge them into something they are not. You have too much ammo, you will never use it in a normal BT game. Seriously how many times have you actually played the board game versus playing Mega-Mek? I am asking because your claim that you need all this extra ammo is suggesting that you do not have a lot time playing the board game against other people. Maybe you have played for a long time but your theories are not suggesting that.
Your Mad Dog makes mechs like the Stormcrow pointless. Sure it's a stand alone mech, it has enough ammo to fire until the world ends at the going rate. I am sorry but your mechs is not something Clans would use.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/14/10 07:26 AM
71.236.221.45
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Ok. Thank you for your opinion.
But in the end, I disagree, and still think that simply adding more ammo does not mean that these mechs were meant to fight in Inner Sphere fashion. They are CLAN mechs, and so they are designed to increase their effective firepower, and have increased armor so Clan warriors can win more trials, engage more enemies in those trials, and in turn engage more Inner Sphere mechs in CLAN fashion. They are beneficial in all senses of Clan warfare.
Now if your real beef with my designs is the ammo, then let me tell you something. I have played a Star of heavies and assaults vs a full company of heavies and assaults before with these mechs, and I have to say the extra ammo IS appreciated. By the time the dust settled, I was able to win by using terrain and my extra ammo to its fullest. I probably could've gone for an extra lance, but that was pushing it. Now what Clanner wouldn't like those odds? 
And, no, it doesn't make the Stormcrow pointless. The Stormcrow is a medium mech, and thus is meant to be faster than heavy mechs. So even though the Stormcrow won't be able to carry as much weaponry, it will still be able to outrun heavy designs in a pinch.
I'm not as contradictory as you think. I HAVE done my homework.
Edited by CYBRN4CR (02/14/10 04:15 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
02/14/10 05:30 PM
203.208.78.129
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Hate to burst your bubble but 5 clan vs 12 IS and the clan winning is not all that uncommon. Especially if dueling rules are in effect.
Just had to say it....
I kinda agree... i think you take the extra ammo to the extream the the Mad Dog would be fine with 12 or even 9 shots per launcher, 24 is just a waste of space... you should never use it and iff you do then your not fighting in the clan way... at all.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/14/10 06:45 PM
71.236.221.45
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My bad. It was a Star vs two companies of heavies and assaults. I remember because I had six bots, each commanding a lance of mechs.
I guess I stand alone on the matter of ammo. Which is fine. But I sorely disagree on the matter that it's anti-clanlike.
Edited by CYBRN4CR (02/14/10 07:04 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 01:29 AM
123.2.140.247
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bots....?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 02:56 AM
71.236.221.45
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In MegaMek you can host a simulated Battletech board game with AI players, aka. "Bots." These bots can control as many mechs as you want, but for speed, it's better to have each bot control a lance up to a Comstar demi-company.
So if you want to simulate two companies worth of enemy mechs, you create 6 bots, have them control a lance each, and have all the bots on one team.
Got it?
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Karagin
02/15/10 03:20 AM
80.149.45.102
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Which proves my point that the game is NOT like the board game. Computers are predictable, they can only do what is programed. Where as a human won't do predictable moves or actions.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 03:40 AM
71.236.221.45
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Hey, if you have a copy of MegaMek, I'd love to do several throwdowns with you.
It's one thing to say it's a different experience with actual players, but it's another thing to say it's a whole different game. Just callling you out on that fact.
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Karagin
02/15/10 04:03 AM
80.149.45.102
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I played the game a few times, I got bored with it since the game did the same moves over and over. I would rather play face to face with a person, it is more fun and worth while.
And you are right it is a fact that playing the game, any game, versus a human IS a different game then playing the computer. I can regularly beat the computer, not so likely against a person.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:01 AM
203.208.78.129
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Ah i see...
Well in that case you really need to play vs real peeps more often. No design is truly battle proven till it's been taken out for a spin by human hands.
No computer can EVER simulate the pure chaos that comes from human thoughts and emotions.
You'd be surprised what ideas come when the chips are down and your facing imminent defeat.
No, until you've faced human players nothing else counts.
Explains the over ammo-ing of your designs tho...
Tell me about this mega mek a little... does it use focus firing? Jump attacks? Physical attacks? Anything more than basic come close and shoot tactics?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 06:12 AM
71.236.221.45
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You are allowed it in the options, but as of the bots not sure. Haven't tested it THAT much. One thing for sure, they know how to exploit MY weaknesses.
I like it because it greatly simplifies calculation.
Well, if there is anything I will admit defeat to is the fact I have yet to play against a human opponent (on MegaMek or the physical board game). With that said, if I can figure out more about its networking abilities, I'd love to play against y'all to get some experience.
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Karagin
02/15/10 06:15 AM
80.149.45.102
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And using a computer to run that isn't the same as having the board, the counters/miniatures and having to roll your own dice. Adding in all the distractions of things like people talking, moving around, kids, spouses, cell phones etc...all that make up the part of playing the game and still being able to stay focused on what you are doing.
Let me know when the computer can sim all of that.
Where do you actually live? City or state if in the US or are you in Europe? I am stationed in Germany currently, but normally I am in Texas or Michigan back in the states.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:19 AM
203.208.78.129
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I must say then until you have tested the finer points of that software your designs and comments won't really hold a lot of weight... sure the theory is sound but everyone knows that theory and practice in warfare are VERY different.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
02/15/10 06:26 AM
80.149.45.102
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Uhmmm I have used the program before, back on my Win ME machine, it is not a new program. I found it to be lacking and while okay for long distance gaming, there are better game engines out there that could be modded into a BT game. Like the Steel Panthers series of games for the tactical fight or Hearts Of Iron games for a larger scale fight.
I would rather play against a person for several reason, one it gives me the chance to make a new friend and thus share ideas and swap stories about the game and past battles. And second it allows me to learn, by watching, new tactical moves or ideas on how to use mechs in a mix that I may not have thought of my self.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:32 AM
203.208.78.129
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There's that as well. Two heads are better than one after all (if they listen to each other).
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
02/15/10 06:56 AM
80.149.45.102
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True.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:59 AM
203.208.78.129
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I must say that even with our differences of opinions i like that there is more going on here at the sarna boards... perhaps it will continue...
Hey cyber how about some vehicle designs? Or is that mega mek not able to do vehicles.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
02/15/10 07:02 AM
80.149.45.102
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It can do vehicles, or so it could back when it first came out...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Tripod
02/15/10 08:07 AM
192.94.94.105
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So Cy, What part fo the world are you in? I'd love to attempt some multiplayer MegaMek. Not sure what version I have currently. There seems to be a constant few, regular posters here. I don't know why we dont get together on MegaMek and have some fun.
TBA
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 05:28 PM
71.236.221.45
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I'm happy y'all want to know where I live. Though to be frank, I think it's so the lot of you can send a few Salamanders my way to torch my ass.
But all past grievances aside, I live in Portland, OR.
@ Zandel
Megamek can simulate everything from infantry, to Battle armor, to vehicles, to mechs, to ASFs, to dropships, and it even has listings for Jumpships, Warships, and I think space stations (need to confirm this). Since I usually play ground battles, I'm not too familiar on the AT2 side of things.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 05:40 PM
123.2.140.247
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No need to fear me... I'm in Australia!
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 06:20 PM
71.236.221.45
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Well, that's comforting, at least. 
BTW, don't confuse MegaMek with a design builder like TDB, Vehicle Factory, or the HM series. It's a computerized Battletech board game with the ability to host games over the net. Again, I have to truly test how that works, but I figure real people can play on that platform as well.
I just post designs in MegaMek-style readouts because it's to the point without all the extra clutter.
Edited by CYBRN4CR (02/15/10 08:42 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 10:41 PM
123.2.140.247
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Is this free? if so where can i find it? if not where can i find it anyway?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 11:09 PM
71.236.221.45
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Yes it's ALWAYS free. Here is the site.
http://megamek.sourceforge.net/
Now to get it, go to the Downloads section and ALWAYS get the most recent "Current Stable" version. Right now that is v0.34.9. You can get the development snapshots, but at the risk of things being weird.
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Karagin
02/16/10 12:06 AM
80.149.45.102
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Noting here simulate being the key word and all the dice rolling is done via the computer thus the random factor how a person rolls or has a habit of rolling goes out the window.
Well you are in the same neighborhood as some our board members like Bob Richter and Nic (Slayer) is in Washington State for school as well. I was at Ft. Lewis for a while myself, now I am stuck in Germany.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/16/10 12:08 AM
80.149.45.102
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That extra clutter you complain about are just as important as the mechs weapons and armor. Look at the TROs, the fluff and such add to the mech, thus a mech gains a certain amount of character and becomes something folks want to use versus a set of numbers that you have min-maxed to get something from.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Tripod
02/16/10 12:36 AM
192.91.75.29
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I've done IP games with other real people in MegeMek befor. In a previous version... You can even save games and pick then up later, or if someone looses connection. The grafics suck(on the last version I played) but the simulation of the boardgame and adherance to the rules was spot on! There are many optional rules that can be toggeled on/off. I personally like floating crits, no reason it shouold always be CT???
TBA
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Karagin
02/16/10 01:05 AM
80.149.45.102
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I too have used it, to me it lost a lot of the fun of the game since there was next to no social interaction. Where as with a face to face game you have more things going on, thus you can get a feel for the person and how they react and don't react then with this computer game. For example, you like medium mechs and you have your force built around say Enforcer, my Warhammer rips apart your mech and does so in a really odd way, say blows off a leg which has the damage transferring over to the side torso which sets of other events. Now if the fight was going pretty even up to this point, one of us is going to get more excited then other and odds also favor one of us playing more cautious now as well. Add in all the silliness that folks like to do, making noises when rolling or talking all the talk about how this attack is the end all of attacks...things that go with the game. All of that is lost with the computer doing the dice rolling and damage allocation for you.
Plus the damn thing is normally easy to beat, one of the reason I quite using it. Call me old school, but I would rather drive 20 miles, play the game and have a chance to meet some one and get to know them then play via a computer doing 98% of all the work for me.
Short story time, back with the Mechwarrior 2 Computer games where out, the Ghost Bear add-on, we had a kid show up to UCON, gaming convention in Ann Arbor Michigan, with his laptop, sit down at the table, turn on the lap top and then ask where he is suppose to plug in so we can play? When he noted the blank looks, he asked if this was Battletech and we were playing? We said yes, explained that is was not a computer game, showed him the whole hey here is what we are playing. He was upset and thought we were crazy for mis-leading him in the convention booklet, he seriously thought the game was LAN and we would be duking it out via computers, guess he missed the part about the game he signed up for and paid money to play was listed under boardgames.
I am sure if he had taken the ten minutes to listen to us he might have had fun, but he didn't. Point here is Cyber is not getting the hint, the computer game doesn't give him a true take on the game, yes it follows the rules, but the variables of how a real person moves or calulates the odds of moving are not going to ever be the same as the computer, which is min-maxing the moves and the ability to do damage. This is already been shown in all of his designs, he over does the ammo, armor is maxed out, speed is damn near prefect for the weight etc...that is all great when facing the computer, just like the alpha strikes that Mechwarrior 2,3, and 4 have made infamous. They don't work in the board game, yet folks still do their best to design mechs that can alpha every turn and then wonder why those who have been playing the game for minute roll our eyes at them and shake our heads and cap them with our puny standard mechs.
He ran a sim, then tells us his way proves right cause my mech, which I pointed out from the get go was over the top, did more damage, he failed to take into account it was a Clan mech, he also failed to note, even though it was pointed out, it had 8 shots per Gauss, and three back up weapons, it didn't have max armor and it didn't have jump jets. But it was a power mech, so really what did he prove? That two power mechs can beat each other up, we already knew that.
How about he post the turn by turn text from the game, then we can all see what happen and then also see how the computer does the work for you, thus taking the fun out of the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 02:07 AM
71.236.221.45
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Well, now that you said that, I don't think I will.
Look, I don't have any beef against playing the actual board game. Yes, the real thing is different (and better) than a simulation. But that never was what I was saying.
Sometimes, the simulation is all you got until you settle in with a group of buddies that all have the time to get together and play.
Dude, I'd LOVE that. But I don't have that...yet.
So take it easy. I'm done fighting with all of you. You win.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 02:12 AM
71.236.221.45
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Really? That's good. I thought it was possible, but wasn't too sure. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
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Karagin
02/16/10 03:27 AM
80.149.45.102
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Who is fighting? You posted your mechs, thus you open things up for us to comment, and that is what we are doing, trying to help you get a better understanding of the game.
As for needing a group to play in, no not really, since moving to Texas I have found a good number of pickup games, some times with the same group, most of the time not. Most are happy to have someone willing to play, thus it's not hard to find folks willing to play, it is finding the time, and that is about the only things the computer game has going for it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 07:54 AM
71.236.221.45
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Well, since getting a new design software, I've changed my design based off several opinions on the matter, and made my equivalents of the rest of the variants.
Below are my takes on the known Mad Dog variants in order.
Code:
Mad Dog
Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped Omnimech
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 11,280,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 813
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 240 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.5 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
35.0 tons of pod space.
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 99 points 3.00
Internal Locations: 3 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Engine 240 6.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT
Gyro: Standard Gyro 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 192 10.00
Armor Locations: 3 LT, 2 LA, 2 RA
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 30
Center Torso (rear) 7
L/R Torso 14 20
L/R Torso (rear) 7
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 14 26
================================================================================
Loadout Name: Prime (Custom) Cost: 14,140,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,275
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 14(28) 4.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 2 LA, 2 RA
CASE Locations: LT, RT 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Pulse Laser RA 10 2 6.00
ER Medium Laser RA 5 1 1.00
Large Pulse Laser LA 10 2 6.00
ER Medium Laser LA 5 1 1.00
LRM-20 RT 6 4 5.00
LRM-20 LT 6 4 5.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@LRM-20 (18) RT - 3 3.00
@LRM-20 (18) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 23
4 3 3 2 0 2 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, LRM 2/2/2, IF 2
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:11 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: A (Custom) Cost: 14,502,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 1,840
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 13(26) 3.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 3 RA
CASE Locations: LT, RT, LA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC RA 15 2 6.00
LB 5-X AC LA 1 4 7.00
4 SRM-4s RT 12 4 4.00
4 SRM-4s LT 12 4 4.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@SRM-4 (50) LA - 2 2.00
@LB 5-X (Slug) (20) LA - 1 1.00
@LB 5-X (Cluster) (20) LA - 1 1.00
@SRM-4 (75) RT - 3 3.00
@SRM-4 (75) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 18
4 2 2 2 0 2 2 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, SRM 4/4/0
This one was interesting. Since I love SRM4s over SRM6s (more missiles per ton of ammo), I exchanged out the 6 previous srms and gave it enough SRM4s to equal the heat of the previous SRM6 barrage at full blast. Keeping much of the variant the same (other than the SRM ammo), I added an ECM for protection, like the Prime, and rounded out the rest of the space with heatsinks.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:15 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: B (Custom) Cost: 14,177,600
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,108
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 15(30) 5.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 3 LA, 2 RA
CASE Locations: LT, RT 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA+LA+H
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Pulse Lasers RA 8 2 4.00
2 ER Large Lasers LA 24 2 8.00
3 Streak SRM-4s RT 9 3 6.00
LRM-20 LT 6 4 5.00
Artemis IV FCS LT - 1 1.00
@Streak SRM-4 (75) RT - 3 3.00
@LRM-20 (Artemis) (6) RT - 1 1.00
@LRM-20 (Artemis) (12) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 1
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 21
4 6 6 3 0 2 2 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, IF 1
While I don't usually go for streaks, if I had to pick a streak, it'd be the SSRM4 for the extra ammo in the bin vs the 6. So switching out the SRMs, and adding appropriate ammo tonnage, I had to remove one pulse laser. Otherwise much of the design is the same (except for the heatsinks).
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:18 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: C (Custom) Cost: 13,840,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,355
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CASE Locations: LA, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
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Gauss Rifle RA 1 6 12.00
Gauss Rifle LA 1 6 12.00
2 ER Medium Lasers RT 10 2 2.00
2 ER Medium Lasers LT 10 2 2.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@Gauss Rifle (24) RT - 3 3.00
@Gauss Rifle (24) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 8
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 24
4 6 6 3 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA
Like the F variant below, this variant gives the C variant much needed backup weapons, and an extra ton of ammo for the Gausses.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:23 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: D (Custom) Cost: 14,608,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,324
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 14(28) 4.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 2 LA, 2 RA
CASE Locations: LT, RT, LA, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Pulse Lasers RA 8 2 4.00
2 Medium Pulse Lasers LA 8 2 4.00
ATM-12 RT 8 5 7.00
ATM-12 LT 8 5 7.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@ATM-12 (10) RA - 2 2.00
@ATM-12 (10) LA - 2 2.00
@ATM-12 (HE) (10) RT - 2 2.00
@ATM-12 (HE) (10) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 23
4 5 6 0 0 2 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA
With ATMs, I only like the standard and HE ammo, so I removed the ER ammo and changed out the mixed lasers for a solid med pulse laser combo as backup. Like before, I added an ECM suite.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:26 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: E (Custom) Cost: 14,120,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,232
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CASE Locations: LA, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HAG-30 RA 6 8 13.00
HAG-30 LA 6 8 13.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@HAG-30 (16) RT - 4 4.00
@HAG-30 (16) LT - 4 4.00
Free Critical Slots: 6
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 22
4 4 4 4 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, FLK 4/4/4
This variant mainly increases the HAG 30 ammo, and adds an ECM suite.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:30 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: F (Custom) Cost: 14,348,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,190
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 14(28) 4.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA
CASE Locations: LA, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HAG-20 RA 4 6 10.00
HAG-20 LA 4 6 10.00
2 ER Medium Lasers RT 10 2 2.00
2 ER Medium Lasers LT 10 2 2.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@HAG-20 (18) RT - 3 3.00
@HAG-20 (18) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 22
4 6 6 3 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, FLK 3/2/2
This variant mainly increases the HAG 20 ammo, heatsinks, and has the standard ECM suite.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:46 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: H (Custom 2) Cost: 14,224,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,179
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 12(24) 2.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 2 LA
CASE Locations: LT, RT, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle RA 1 6 12.00
2 Heavy Medium Lasers LA 14 4 2.00
LRM-20 RT 6 4 5.00
LRM-20 LT 6 4 5.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@Gauss Rifle (16) RA - 2 2.00
@LRM-20 (18) RT - 3 3.00
@LRM-20 (18) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 22
4 4 4 2 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, LRM 2/2/2, IF 2
This one changed the most as I had leftover tonnage after putting everything in, with not enough space. Plus the heat went way over the top of what I would call comfortable, so I kept two of the heavy medium lasers, upgraded the LRM15s to 20s, and shuffled some components around to make just enough room for a Gauss rifle with 16 shots of ammo.
Last I got. Any good? And no telling me these aren't Clanlike, as I tried to keep to the original variants where I could.
Plus, there are others that don't mind the change in ammo levels, so please just keep this discussion to a pure "how can this varient be improved" topic.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/24/10 06:06 PM
123.2.140.247
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Quote:
Plus, there are others that don't mind the change in ammo levels, so please just keep this discussion to a pure "how can this varient be improved" topic
Sorry to say but your ammo levels on most of these designs IS 'how this variant can be improved'.
One question for all of them tho... Why the ECM? I mean i know what it does and all, but why on each and ever design? After all TRUE clanners will stay OUT of ECM range for the most part and take down there enemies from range. I'd suggest removing it from the non-brawler configs.
Now on to the mechs:
PRIME:
I actually agree with the ammo on this one... the standard prime with 6 rounds never sat well with me... I'd drop the ECM for extra armour or an extra ER Med Las but otherwise keep this pretty much as is.
VARIANT A:
This one does have Ammo problems... mainly too much. Trust me when i say it will be a VERY rare battle indeed that you will ever use 25 rounds for those SRMs... and 40 rounds for that AC? You'll NEVER use it all. I'd suggest Dropping 2 tons of SRM ammo and the ECM then upgrade that AC to a LB-10X AC (pretty sure that's 10 tons...) that way you get increased firepower with no real loss.
VARIANT B:
Again with the ammo... SSRMs do NOT need as much as other SRMs cause there is NO waste... drop a ton each of SSRM and LRM ammo and add an extra M Pulse Las or 2 Sml Pulse Las to take out infantry.
VARIANT C:
This one I like... with the range of the gauss and no min range this is probably the first design where you might come close to using that ammo... and the ECM could be useful here.
VARIANT D:
I'd say this one is over cooled.... i'd drop back to 12 DHS and add another Med Pulse... you won't need to fire the Lasers and ATMs at the same time often and when you do next round just use lasers (4 heat extra) or the ATMs (8 heat extra).
VARIANT E & F:
Can't say much here cause i don't have stats for HAGs... they look ok tho 16 and 18 shots of ammo are good figures assuming those weaps can be used at long and med range if not short as well.
VARIANT G:
??? is there one or did you just forget your alphabet there for a sec?
VARIANT H:
I'd drop the ECM for another Heavy M Las. Otherwise stay at range and keep firing.
Ok so there are my suggestions. Sure many of them address your ammo but over all you've got better with that... remember that the best battle is a quick one, in a quick battle you need extra weaps for damage but not as much ammo (As I proved in the 100T monster thread...) you can do more damage over time with extra ammo but with more weaps that no longer matters cause the fight is over b4 the extra ammo comes into play.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 06:42 PM
71.236.221.45
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Thanks man for the input. THIS is what I was looking for when I first posted my designs, and your advice on the variants is well appreciated. I will look into them.
As far as I've seen, there is no official G variant. 
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CYBRN4CR
02/25/10 01:41 AM
71.236.221.45
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Btw, HAGs are essentially machine gun Gauss rifles that act like LBXs or LRMs at range (one shot equals a volley of shots equal to the grade). All HAGs have a -2 to hit at short range and +2 at long/extreme range, so this places them in an interesting role. With a range much like a light or standard gauss, they seem like they could be good for sniping, but with the to hit values they are better up close. And of couse, like all gausses the ammo doesn't explode so it's ok to pack it on.
Now as for the ECM, that is added to protect the design from everything the ECM neutralizes. For the long range variants, it's to make it harder for missiles to hit, and safeguards the design from being a NARC target. For the up-close and personal designs, it's to neutralize any streak missiles and C3 networks. So really I'm just adding to the design's invasive ability and defence by adding an ECM. It's just what I like to equip on things if possible.
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Karagin
02/25/10 03:33 AM
80.149.45.102
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While the ECM makes sense, the limited RANGE it has makes it not worth bothering to use, AMS would be against missiles. I believe they need to revamp the ECM and what it does and how far out its' reach is etc...but as it stands the rules work against it given its' range is 6 or less hexes...not going to do much against anything to make it worthwhile.
But if you like using it, knock yourself out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/25/10 06:25 AM
71.236.221.45
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Well, I did have a thought with my comment about the Narcs and Zandel's suggestions, that perhaps giving these mechs ECM was a bit much. I DO like its effects, but the IS needs as many tactics they can use against these buggers as possible, especially with all the upgrading I'm doing. So I think I will restrict their use with these Clan designs.
What if I exchange them for small pulse lasers for their anti infantry abilities? I think that would be a good enough substitute.
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Karagin
02/25/10 07:31 AM
80.149.45.102
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The ECM is fine, the rules as written are the main issue, mostly the range limit is the killer. If it was longer say out to 15 hexes or so then it could and would be an effect tool.
It works well enough in a city, but no one wants to fight in a city if they can avoid it.
If want to do an exchange, the pulse lasers idea is fine or AMS. Or use the Laser AMS found in MaxTech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/25/10 09:15 AM
71.236.221.45
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Thanks for the green light, Karagin. I appreciate it.
Well, back to the drawing board I go! No, wait...I made these in SSW...nevermind.
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Karagin
02/25/10 11:24 AM
80.149.45.102
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If you get the chance go to this webpage:
http://battletech.hopto.org/deathshadow/ds_Mk1Omnis.html
Think it will help you out or convince you that it has been done before and give you a better direction to take things.
As for going back to the drawing board, I don't see the need, just know the limitations of the equipment in the board game would help you out more when build mechs folks might or will likely want to give a try in said board game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/25/10 07:14 PM
71.236.221.45
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FYI, I was trying to be funny when I said that.
Either way, taking all this input in stride, I will have to take a second look at what I created and modify the designs accordingly.
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