Karagin
02/16/10 12:08 AM
80.149.45.102
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That extra clutter you complain about are just as important as the mechs weapons and armor. Look at the TROs, the fluff and such add to the mech, thus a mech gains a certain amount of character and becomes something folks want to use versus a set of numbers that you have min-maxed to get something from.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Tripod
02/16/10 12:36 AM
192.91.75.29
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I've done IP games with other real people in MegeMek befor. In a previous version... You can even save games and pick then up later, or if someone looses connection. The grafics suck(on the last version I played) but the simulation of the boardgame and adherance to the rules was spot on! There are many optional rules that can be toggeled on/off. I personally like floating crits, no reason it shouold always be CT???
TBA
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Karagin
02/16/10 01:05 AM
80.149.45.102
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I too have used it, to me it lost a lot of the fun of the game since there was next to no social interaction. Where as with a face to face game you have more things going on, thus you can get a feel for the person and how they react and don't react then with this computer game. For example, you like medium mechs and you have your force built around say Enforcer, my Warhammer rips apart your mech and does so in a really odd way, say blows off a leg which has the damage transferring over to the side torso which sets of other events. Now if the fight was going pretty even up to this point, one of us is going to get more excited then other and odds also favor one of us playing more cautious now as well. Add in all the silliness that folks like to do, making noises when rolling or talking all the talk about how this attack is the end all of attacks...things that go with the game. All of that is lost with the computer doing the dice rolling and damage allocation for you.
Plus the damn thing is normally easy to beat, one of the reason I quite using it. Call me old school, but I would rather drive 20 miles, play the game and have a chance to meet some one and get to know them then play via a computer doing 98% of all the work for me.
Short story time, back with the Mechwarrior 2 Computer games where out, the Ghost Bear add-on, we had a kid show up to UCON, gaming convention in Ann Arbor Michigan, with his laptop, sit down at the table, turn on the lap top and then ask where he is suppose to plug in so we can play? When he noted the blank looks, he asked if this was Battletech and we were playing? We said yes, explained that is was not a computer game, showed him the whole hey here is what we are playing. He was upset and thought we were crazy for mis-leading him in the convention booklet, he seriously thought the game was LAN and we would be duking it out via computers, guess he missed the part about the game he signed up for and paid money to play was listed under boardgames.
I am sure if he had taken the ten minutes to listen to us he might have had fun, but he didn't. Point here is Cyber is not getting the hint, the computer game doesn't give him a true take on the game, yes it follows the rules, but the variables of how a real person moves or calulates the odds of moving are not going to ever be the same as the computer, which is min-maxing the moves and the ability to do damage. This is already been shown in all of his designs, he over does the ammo, armor is maxed out, speed is damn near prefect for the weight etc...that is all great when facing the computer, just like the alpha strikes that Mechwarrior 2,3, and 4 have made infamous. They don't work in the board game, yet folks still do their best to design mechs that can alpha every turn and then wonder why those who have been playing the game for minute roll our eyes at them and shake our heads and cap them with our puny standard mechs.
He ran a sim, then tells us his way proves right cause my mech, which I pointed out from the get go was over the top, did more damage, he failed to take into account it was a Clan mech, he also failed to note, even though it was pointed out, it had 8 shots per Gauss, and three back up weapons, it didn't have max armor and it didn't have jump jets. But it was a power mech, so really what did he prove? That two power mechs can beat each other up, we already knew that.
How about he post the turn by turn text from the game, then we can all see what happen and then also see how the computer does the work for you, thus taking the fun out of the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 02:07 AM
71.236.221.45
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Well, now that you said that, I don't think I will. 
Look, I don't have any beef against playing the actual board game. Yes, the real thing is different (and better) than a simulation. But that never was what I was saying.
Sometimes, the simulation is all you got until you settle in with a group of buddies that all have the time to get together and play.
Dude, I'd LOVE that. But I don't have that...yet.
So take it easy. I'm done fighting with all of you. You win.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 02:12 AM
71.236.221.45
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Really? That's good. I thought it was possible, but wasn't too sure. Thank you for confirming my suspicions. 
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Karagin
02/16/10 03:27 AM
80.149.45.102
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Who is fighting? You posted your mechs, thus you open things up for us to comment, and that is what we are doing, trying to help you get a better understanding of the game.
As for needing a group to play in, no not really, since moving to Texas I have found a good number of pickup games, some times with the same group, most of the time not. Most are happy to have someone willing to play, thus it's not hard to find folks willing to play, it is finding the time, and that is about the only things the computer game has going for it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 07:54 AM
71.236.221.45
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Well, since getting a new design software, I've changed my design based off several opinions on the matter, and made my equivalents of the rest of the variants.
Below are my takes on the known Mad Dog variants in order.
Code:
Mad Dog
Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped Omnimech
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 11,280,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 813
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 240 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.5 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
35.0 tons of pod space.
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 99 points 3.00
Internal Locations: 3 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Engine 240 6.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT
Gyro: Standard Gyro 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 192 10.00
Armor Locations: 3 LT, 2 LA, 2 RA
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 30
Center Torso (rear) 7
L/R Torso 14 20
L/R Torso (rear) 7
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 14 26
================================================================================
Loadout Name: Prime (Custom) Cost: 14,140,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,275
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 14(28) 4.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 2 LA, 2 RA
CASE Locations: LT, RT 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Pulse Laser RA 10 2 6.00
ER Medium Laser RA 5 1 1.00
Large Pulse Laser LA 10 2 6.00
ER Medium Laser LA 5 1 1.00
LRM-20 RT 6 4 5.00
LRM-20 LT 6 4 5.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@LRM-20 (18) RT - 3 3.00
@LRM-20 (18) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 23
4 3 3 2 0 2 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, LRM 2/2/2, IF 2
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:11 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: A (Custom) Cost: 14,502,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 1,840
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 13(26) 3.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 3 RA
CASE Locations: LT, RT, LA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC RA 15 2 6.00
LB 5-X AC LA 1 4 7.00
4 SRM-4s RT 12 4 4.00
4 SRM-4s LT 12 4 4.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@SRM-4 (50) LA - 2 2.00
@LB 5-X (Slug) (20) LA - 1 1.00
@LB 5-X (Cluster) (20) LA - 1 1.00
@SRM-4 (75) RT - 3 3.00
@SRM-4 (75) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 18
4 2 2 2 0 2 2 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, SRM 4/4/0
This one was interesting. Since I love SRM4s over SRM6s (more missiles per ton of ammo), I exchanged out the 6 previous srms and gave it enough SRM4s to equal the heat of the previous SRM6 barrage at full blast. Keeping much of the variant the same (other than the SRM ammo), I added an ECM for protection, like the Prime, and rounded out the rest of the space with heatsinks.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:15 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: B (Custom) Cost: 14,177,600
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,108
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 15(30) 5.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 3 LA, 2 RA
CASE Locations: LT, RT 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA+LA+H
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Pulse Lasers RA 8 2 4.00
2 ER Large Lasers LA 24 2 8.00
3 Streak SRM-4s RT 9 3 6.00
LRM-20 LT 6 4 5.00
Artemis IV FCS LT - 1 1.00
@Streak SRM-4 (75) RT - 3 3.00
@LRM-20 (Artemis) (6) RT - 1 1.00
@LRM-20 (Artemis) (12) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 1
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 21
4 6 6 3 0 2 2 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, IF 1
While I don't usually go for streaks, if I had to pick a streak, it'd be the SSRM4 for the extra ammo in the bin vs the 6. So switching out the SRMs, and adding appropriate ammo tonnage, I had to remove one pulse laser. Otherwise much of the design is the same (except for the heatsinks). 
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:18 AM
71.236.221.45
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Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: C (Custom) Cost: 13,840,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,355
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CASE Locations: LA, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle RA 1 6 12.00
Gauss Rifle LA 1 6 12.00
2 ER Medium Lasers RT 10 2 2.00
2 ER Medium Lasers LT 10 2 2.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@Gauss Rifle (24) RT - 3 3.00
@Gauss Rifle (24) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 8
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 24
4 6 6 3 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA
Like the F variant below, this variant gives the C variant much needed backup weapons, and an extra ton of ammo for the Gausses.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:23 AM
71.236.221.45
|
Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: D (Custom) Cost: 14,608,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,324
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 14(28) 4.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 2 LA, 2 RA
CASE Locations: LT, RT, LA, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Pulse Lasers RA 8 2 4.00
2 Medium Pulse Lasers LA 8 2 4.00
ATM-12 RT 8 5 7.00
ATM-12 LT 8 5 7.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@ATM-12 (10) RA - 2 2.00
@ATM-12 (10) LA - 2 2.00
@ATM-12 (HE) (10) RT - 2 2.00
@ATM-12 (HE) (10) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 23
4 5 6 0 0 2 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA
With ATMs, I only like the standard and HE ammo, so I removed the ER ammo and changed out the mixed lasers for a solid med pulse laser combo as backup. Like before, I added an ECM suite.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:26 AM
71.236.221.45
|
Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: E (Custom) Cost: 14,120,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,232
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CASE Locations: LA, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HAG-30 RA 6 8 13.00
HAG-30 LA 6 8 13.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@HAG-30 (16) RT - 4 4.00
@HAG-30 (16) LT - 4 4.00
Free Critical Slots: 6
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 22
4 4 4 4 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, FLK 4/4/4
This variant mainly increases the HAG 30 ammo, and adds an ECM suite.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:30 AM
71.236.221.45
|
Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: F (Custom) Cost: 14,348,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,190
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 14(28) 4.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA
CASE Locations: LA, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HAG-20 RA 4 6 10.00
HAG-20 LA 4 6 10.00
2 ER Medium Lasers RT 10 2 2.00
2 ER Medium Lasers LT 10 2 2.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@HAG-20 (18) RT - 3 3.00
@HAG-20 (18) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 22
4 6 6 3 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, FLK 3/2/2
This variant mainly increases the HAG 20 ammo, heatsinks, and has the standard ECM suite.
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 08:46 AM
71.236.221.45
|
Code:
================================================================================
Loadout Name: H (Custom 2) Cost: 14,224,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E BV2: 2,179
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks: Double 12(24) 2.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 2 LA
CASE Locations: LT, RT, RA 0.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle RA 1 6 12.00
2 Heavy Medium Lasers LA 14 4 2.00
LRM-20 RT 6 4 5.00
LRM-20 LT 6 4 5.00
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.00
@Gauss Rifle (16) RA - 2 2.00
@LRM-20 (18) RT - 3 3.00
@LRM-20 (18) LT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 22
4 4 4 2 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SOA, LRM 2/2/2, IF 2
This one changed the most as I had leftover tonnage after putting everything in, with not enough space. Plus the heat went way over the top of what I would call comfortable, so I kept two of the heavy medium lasers, upgraded the LRM15s to 20s, and shuffled some components around to make just enough room for a Gauss rifle with 16 shots of ammo.
Last I got. Any good? And no telling me these aren't Clanlike, as I tried to keep to the original variants where I could.
Plus, there are others that don't mind the change in ammo levels, so please just keep this discussion to a pure "how can this varient be improved" topic.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/24/10 06:06 PM
123.2.140.247
|
Quote:
Plus, there are others that don't mind the change in ammo levels, so please just keep this discussion to a pure "how can this varient be improved" topic
Sorry to say but your ammo levels on most of these designs IS 'how this variant can be improved'.
One question for all of them tho... Why the ECM? I mean i know what it does and all, but why on each and ever design? After all TRUE clanners will stay OUT of ECM range for the most part and take down there enemies from range. I'd suggest removing it from the non-brawler configs.
Now on to the mechs:
PRIME:
I actually agree with the ammo on this one... the standard prime with 6 rounds never sat well with me... I'd drop the ECM for extra armour or an extra ER Med Las but otherwise keep this pretty much as is.
VARIANT A:
This one does have Ammo problems... mainly too much. Trust me when i say it will be a VERY rare battle indeed that you will ever use 25 rounds for those SRMs... and 40 rounds for that AC? You'll NEVER use it all. I'd suggest Dropping 2 tons of SRM ammo and the ECM then upgrade that AC to a LB-10X AC (pretty sure that's 10 tons...) that way you get increased firepower with no real loss.
VARIANT B:
Again with the ammo... SSRMs do NOT need as much as other SRMs cause there is NO waste... drop a ton each of SSRM and LRM ammo and add an extra M Pulse Las or 2 Sml Pulse Las to take out infantry.
VARIANT C:
This one I like... with the range of the gauss and no min range this is probably the first design where you might come close to using that ammo... and the ECM could be useful here.
VARIANT D:
I'd say this one is over cooled.... i'd drop back to 12 DHS and add another Med Pulse... you won't need to fire the Lasers and ATMs at the same time often and when you do next round just use lasers (4 heat extra) or the ATMs (8 heat extra).
VARIANT E & F:
Can't say much here cause i don't have stats for HAGs... they look ok tho 16 and 18 shots of ammo are good figures assuming those weaps can be used at long and med range if not short as well.
VARIANT G:
??? is there one or did you just forget your alphabet there for a sec?
VARIANT H:
I'd drop the ECM for another Heavy M Las. Otherwise stay at range and keep firing.
Ok so there are my suggestions. Sure many of them address your ammo but over all you've got better with that... remember that the best battle is a quick one, in a quick battle you need extra weaps for damage but not as much ammo (As I proved in the 100T monster thread...) you can do more damage over time with extra ammo but with more weaps that no longer matters cause the fight is over b4 the extra ammo comes into play.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/24/10 06:42 PM
71.236.221.45
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Thanks man for the input. THIS is what I was looking for when I first posted my designs, and your advice on the variants is well appreciated. I will look into them.
As far as I've seen, there is no official G variant. 
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CYBRN4CR
02/25/10 01:41 AM
71.236.221.45
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Btw, HAGs are essentially machine gun Gauss rifles that act like LBXs or LRMs at range (one shot equals a volley of shots equal to the grade). All HAGs have a -2 to hit at short range and +2 at long/extreme range, so this places them in an interesting role. With a range much like a light or standard gauss, they seem like they could be good for sniping, but with the to hit values they are better up close. And of couse, like all gausses the ammo doesn't explode so it's ok to pack it on.
Now as for the ECM, that is added to protect the design from everything the ECM neutralizes. For the long range variants, it's to make it harder for missiles to hit, and safeguards the design from being a NARC target. For the up-close and personal designs, it's to neutralize any streak missiles and C3 networks. So really I'm just adding to the design's invasive ability and defence by adding an ECM. It's just what I like to equip on things if possible.
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Karagin
02/25/10 03:33 AM
80.149.45.102
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While the ECM makes sense, the limited RANGE it has makes it not worth bothering to use, AMS would be against missiles. I believe they need to revamp the ECM and what it does and how far out its' reach is etc...but as it stands the rules work against it given its' range is 6 or less hexes...not going to do much against anything to make it worthwhile.
But if you like using it, knock yourself out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/25/10 06:25 AM
71.236.221.45
|
Well, I did have a thought with my comment about the Narcs and Zandel's suggestions, that perhaps giving these mechs ECM was a bit much. I DO like its effects, but the IS needs as many tactics they can use against these buggers as possible, especially with all the upgrading I'm doing. So I think I will restrict their use with these Clan designs.
What if I exchange them for small pulse lasers for their anti infantry abilities? I think that would be a good enough substitute.
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Karagin
02/25/10 07:31 AM
80.149.45.102
|
The ECM is fine, the rules as written are the main issue, mostly the range limit is the killer. If it was longer say out to 15 hexes or so then it could and would be an effect tool.
It works well enough in a city, but no one wants to fight in a city if they can avoid it.
If want to do an exchange, the pulse lasers idea is fine or AMS. Or use the Laser AMS found in MaxTech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/25/10 09:15 AM
71.236.221.45
|
Thanks for the green light, Karagin. I appreciate it.
Well, back to the drawing board I go! No, wait...I made these in SSW...nevermind.
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Karagin
02/25/10 11:24 AM
80.149.45.102
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If you get the chance go to this webpage:
http://battletech.hopto.org/deathshadow/ds_Mk1Omnis.html
Think it will help you out or convince you that it has been done before and give you a better direction to take things.
As for going back to the drawing board, I don't see the need, just know the limitations of the equipment in the board game would help you out more when build mechs folks might or will likely want to give a try in said board game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/25/10 07:14 PM
71.236.221.45
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FYI, I was trying to be funny when I said that.
Either way, taking all this input in stride, I will have to take a second look at what I created and modify the designs accordingly.
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