Design Contest

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Karagin
08/07/10 07:04 AM
80.149.45.147

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Okay let's try this out for fun and see what we can come up with:

60 ton mech

Must have close to full armor

Any tech level can be used expect for BAR or Industrial Mech items.

Price: 8 million c-bill price range.

Everything else is up to you on what it carries weapon wise or electronic wise or what type of armor.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/07/10 08:33 PM
24.6.132.62

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Technology Base: - Inner Sphere - Level 2
Equipment Mass 60
Internal Structure: ES 3
Engine: 300 19
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: double 13
Gyro: XL 1.5
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 200 standard 12.5

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3/9
Center Torso 20/30
Center Torso(rear) 9
R/L Torso 14/23
R/L Torso(rear) 5
R/L Arm 10/20
R/L Leg 14/28

Weapons and Ammo Location

4 Med Laser LT
1 ER LL LA
4 Med Laser RT
1 ER LL RA

Cost 6,550,080 C-Bills

Way under budget but it works. The weakness is that it has no jump jets. I am not that big of a fan of mechs over 55 tons with jump jets.

Clan mech

Technology Base: - Clan - Level 2
Equipment Mass 60
Internal Structure: ES 3
Engine: 300 EL 19
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5
Heat Sinks: double 11
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 192 ferro fibrous 10

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3/9
Center Torso 20/28
Center Torso(rear) 7
R/L Torso 14/21
R/L Torso(rear) 5
R/L Arm 10/20
R/L Leg 14/28

Weapons and Ammo Location

1 ER PPC LT
2 Med Pulse laser LT
3 Med Pulse laser RT

Cost 6,218,880 C-Bills

Again under budget. This time I added jump jets. It easily over heats if it keeps jumping and firing all five pulse lasers. A good tactic is to jump around at long range of the ER PPC and take pot shots.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
08/08/10 03:52 AM
80.149.45.147

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Both are good designs. Interesting choice weapons. Noting that you didn't use any ammo based weapons.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/08/10 10:26 AM
24.6.132.62

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I just find ballistic and missile weapons to heavy and limiting to wast my limited weight on.

Have your ammo using weapons. I will do what ever I can to make you either not to take that risky shot to save ammo or to make you use up your ammo and become defenseless. With out the concern of ammo I can stay at long range for the entire encounter and take the shots that needs a 12 to hit. The first time I played Battletech I had an all ammo designed mech. I lost the fight because I ran out of ammo before it was over.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ix
08/08/10 07:46 PM
81.6.219.90

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A jumping, Pulse Laser and accident-prevention design in my own particular idiom. Being unable to use AES on 60+ ton mechs is silly.

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-F
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 7,901,256 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,152

Construction Options: Fractional Accounting

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 180 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.400000000000006 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 150 meters (180 meters)
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
6 (CL) Medium Pulse Lasers
1 ECM Suite
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 99 points 3.000
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 4 LA, 2 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 180 7.000
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 5 (6) Improved
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LT, 3 RT 10.00
Heat Sinks: (CL) Double Heat Sink 11(25) 1.000
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro: Standard GyroStandard 2.000
Cockpit: (A) Torso-Mounted 6.000
(A) Life Support + (A) Life Support Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Ferro-Lamellor AV - 201 14.351
Armor Locations: 6 LA, 6 RA

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 30
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 14 21
L/R Torso (rear) 7
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 14 28

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 (CL) Medium Pulse Lasers RT 8 2 4.000
2 (CL) Medium Pulse Lasers LT 8 2 4.000
Partial Wing LT/RT - 3/3 3.000
2 (CL) Medium Pulse Lasers HD 8 2 4.000
ECM Suite HD 0 1 1.000
Free Critical Slots: 0
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/08/10 10:37 PM
24.6.132.62

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Not bad at all for a short range scraper. I like the armor.

The problems I have with it is its lack of non jumping speed, its lack of long range weapons, and it is short on heat sinks for the weapons and jump jets that it carries.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
08/09/10 12:15 AM
80.149.45.147

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Not being able to alpha all the time, isn't a bad thing.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Zandel_Corrin
08/09/10 12:46 AM
123.2.140.247

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That should be 11 (22) in the heat section.... Looks good.

Nice design that makes you think about your moves and overheats like a biatch just like all good clanners... i think they have a thing for pain those guys...

Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/09/10 05:16 AM
24.6.132.62

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Quote:

Not being able to alpha all the time, isn't a bad thing.





One should be able to use all of one range category weapons at once. I would have recommended dropping one pulse laser and put in two double heat sinks in its place. But with not having any crits left that is not an option. Having only four medium pulse lasers available with running or three MPL and jumping is very underpowered for a 60 tun mech.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/09/10 05:17 AM
24.6.132.62

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Another problem with this design is its extreme reliance on resupply of highly specialized armor. As long as you can stay at your base that should not be to much of a problem, at least for a while. How much of that specialized armor are you going to have laying around your base? On campaign you might just find yourself very quickly having no armor to replace damaged armor. Its quite unlikely your going to capture such armor from the enemy. For that reason I try to avoid using specialized armor in my designs.

When I do use specialized armor I have at least 10 tons of armor for each ton of armor the mech has on it stockpiled in my base just encase I might have resupply problems.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ix
08/09/10 09:43 AM
81.6.219.90

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Quote:

I would have recommended dropping one pulse laser and put in two double heat sinks in its place.




Why? If you dropped a pulse laser you wouldn't need to add any heatsinking at all, it'd lose 2 heat per turn at max alpha. It doesn't run that hot. The heat is 11(25) with max heat 27, the Partial Wing loses 3 heat per turn in a standard atmosphere. The heat build-up with max jumping and firing every gun every turn is 2, easy to manage. If you doubt the firepower of 6 MPL try it in MegaMek. =) Designs like this are very powerful on anything short of a bowling green map as they can move in and out of cover and over obstacles so easily.

As far the armour you're right about supply, though the patchwork rules are awful, you should really be able to patch up areas with any salvaged armour as through the loss of FL it'd have space for any other kind of armour if the patchwork rules worked properly as a % of bulk rather than this stupid per location stuff.

Cheesemobile/SomeRulesAreBroken

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 5,500,160 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,722

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 60 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 10.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 21.6 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters / 300 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 (CL) ER Large Lasers
1 Watchdog CEWS
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 99 points 3.00
Internal Locations: 3 LA, 4 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 60 1.50
Walking MP: 1
Running MP: 2
Jumping MP: 0 / 10 Jump Booster
Heat Sinks: (CL) Double Heat Sink 12(24) 2.00
Heat Sink Locations: 5 LT, 5 RT
Gyro: Extra-Light GyroXL 0.50
Cockpit: Small 2.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 201 10.50
Armor Locations: 4 LA, 3 RA

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 30
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 14 21
L/R Torso (rear) 7
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 14 28

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(T) (CL) ER Large Laser RT 12 1 4.00
(T) (CL) ER Large Laser LT 12 1 4.00
Watchdog CEWS HD 0 2 1.50
Mech Shoulder Turret LT - 1 0.50
Mech Shoulder Turret RT - 1 0.50
Jump Booster * - 4 30.00
Free Critical Slots: 2

* The Jump Booster occupies 2 slots in each leg.


Edited by ix (08/09/10 11:56 AM)
Karagin
08/09/10 11:07 AM
80.149.45.147

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I wouldn't hold much "proof" of anything via MegaMek, what matter is the board game and the rules that go with that against another person.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ix
08/09/10 11:59 AM
81.6.219.90

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I only meant Megamek as an easily accessible way of testing, what material difference does it make assuming you agree a similar rule set?
Jon
08/09/10 02:10 PM
24.21.3.118

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I've always liked the look of the Thug out of the 2750 book. I guess i'm into the older tech. I have created a 30T version that I use in Solaris 7 matches. My GM hates it as he can't beat it so far. So i went for a 60T version for your competition:

Inner Sphere - Level 3
Bipedal mech
60 tons

Movement:
Walk: 5
Run: 8
Sprint: 10
Jump: 5

Some people may see jump jets as a hinderance, I've always looked at them as an insurance policy - when i want them and don't have them is when i usually get blown up =)

Weapons: 2 Light AC/5's
2 Rocket Launchers - 10 packs
AMD system

I like the rocket launchers because they weigh less than the other 'One-Shot' systems, and they are basically fire and forget rockets. They have provided a nice surprise to the enemy in the last few mechs i have used them in, and they don't need case as they are all self contained systems.

I think it's 5 points away from max armor

Internal Structure:
Head = 3
LT/RT = 14
CT = 20
LA/RA = 10
LL/RL = 14

Armor = IS Ferro Fibrous
Head = 9
LT/RT = 21
Rear LT/RT = 6
CT = 29
Rear CT = 9
LA/RA = 20
LL/RL = 28

Weapons:
AMS = Heat 1, Damage 'Special', Located in Head
Light AC/5 = Heat 1, Damage 5, Ranges: S5/M10/L15/Ex20 = one in each arm at 2 crit spaces
RLauncher = Heat 3, Damage 1/missile, Ranges: S5/M11/L18/Ex22 = one in LT & RT

AMS Ammo is stored in CT with CASE = 1 Ton or 12 shots - Not alot, but it does come in handy
AC/5 ammo located in LT/RT with CASE = 1 ton each location so total of 20 shots per system

The thing i like about all these weapons is that there isn't a Minimum Range on any of them, so if i can sneak in behind my enemy they are hosed.

The only negative is that the RLaunchers have a +1 to their Base to Hit number

Max Heat is 9, and I kept it simple with the base 10 single heat sinks so i can fire everything and jump and still be ok on heat.

Battle Value = 1081
Cost is = $6,188,160

So it's under the $8 million mark. If i pulled the Jump Jets i could put in more ammo and possibly other components, but like I told my GM when I showed him this mech, "Since i started playing this game in the late '80s, JUmp Jets have saved my ass more that the extra ammo or weapons I could replace them with."

yes I'm that old, I learned how to play BT in 1989 =)
Karagin
08/09/10 02:25 PM
80.149.45.147

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Nice mech, I can see your point about the jets and at the same time I can see the counter points about the ammo and armor.

I got started in the game with a copy of Battledroids and then a couple of the scenario packs. Really think the House Books sold me on the game. Man I miss those days.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
08/09/10 02:28 PM
80.149.45.147

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I am not a fan of Mega Mek, you are not playing another person, the dice are not rolled by you, but by a computer, there is no interaction, like watching the face of the other guy as your mechs move away from where he thought they were going to go and then realizing you out flanked him. The interaction of human dialog is gone since you can't talk face to face with the person...the list goes on, plus the game is to randomized in how it handles damage. No I will stick to playing this great game as it was meant to be played. On a table-top, with counters or miniatures against real people, rolling the dice my self.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ix
08/09/10 03:02 PM
81.6.219.90

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Well most of that is your preference and I'd respect that but it's about the experience of playing and is immaterial in assessing designs. What do you mean about the randomness of the damage? There's nothing wrong with computer generated random numbers for something as simple as Battletech unless the MegaTek coders have set out to cock it up (possible but unlikely). If you have evidence that it's wrong tell them as it'd be extremely easy to fix.


Edited by ix (08/09/10 07:11 PM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/09/10 03:44 PM
24.6.132.62

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Quote:

Quote:

I would have recommended dropping one pulse laser and put in two double heat sinks in its place.




Why? If you dropped a pulse laser you wouldn't need to add any heatsinking at all, it'd lose 2 heat per turn at max alpha. It doesn't run that hot. The heat is 11(25) with max heat 27, the Partial Wing loses 3 heat per turn in a standard atmosphere. The heat build-up with max jumping and firing every gun every turn is 2, easy to manage. If you doubt the firepower of 6 MPL try it in MegaMek. =) Designs like this are very powerful on anything short of a bowling green map as they can move in and out of cover and over obstacles so easily.




I don't know where your getting this 11(25) from. 11 Double heat sinks let you drop 22 heat not 25. I know nothing about Partial Wings so I cant say anything about them or the rules governing them. The rules that I am familiar when it comes to advanced jump jets they create 2 heat per hex jumped, that info could quite easily be out dated. Jumping 5 (Assuming 1 hear per hex) and firing 6 MPL create 29 heat. Having 11 double heat drops that to 7 heat. If your info about the wings is correct that would drop the heat to 4 not 2. When I said that if it was possible I would have swapped the MPL for two DHS I did not know anything about Partial Wings and that they drop 3 heat.

This is just a guess on my part but I would assume that the Partial Wings only drop extra heat when one is using them to fly. If one is walking or running around the wings do not help with heat control.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/09/10 04:01 PM
24.6.132.62

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Quote:


Weapons:
AMS = Heat 1, Damage 'Special', Located in Head
Light AC/5 = Heat 1, Damage 5, Ranges: S5/M10/L15/Ex20 = one in each arm at 2 crit spaces
RLauncher = Heat 3, Damage 1/missile, Ranges: S5/M11/L18/Ex22 = one in LT & RT

Max Heat is 9, and I kept it simple with the base 10 single heat sinks so i can fire everything and jump and still be ok on heat.




I would count that as max ?8 heat with jumping since the RLs are one shot weapons they don't need to be counted.

When did the standard AMS start creating a heat point? I know that the Laser AMS creates a lot of heat if its still in the game.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ix
08/09/10 06:07 PM
81.6.219.90

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Heat sunk:
11 Double heat sinks = 22
1 Partial Wing = 3 (Tactical Operations, p. 295 Atmosphere 'Normal')

Total heat sinking: 25

Heat generated:
6 Medium Pulse Laser = 24
5 Improved Jump jets (1 per 2 squares jumped, rounded up TechManual, p. 225 MaxTech p.81) = 3
Total heat max: 27

As I understand it partial wings always sink heat when a mech's in an atmosphere. The rules change and there are so many it's easy to lose track! =)


Edited by ix (08/09/10 06:11 PM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/09/10 07:04 PM
173.126.173.86

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I don't agree with the rules for the partial wings or improved Jump jets. There way over powering.

The wings should not act like free heat sinks when there is not a great deal of air passing over them.

The jump jets give you way to much for so little of a cost. I think the improved jump jets where fine when they cost two heat points for each hex jumped.

Well this is not the first time a player disagreed with the game designers nor will it be the last.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ix
08/09/10 07:21 PM
81.6.219.90

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Ah well, that's a different issue. There are a lot of rules I'd change, Patchwork Armour being the first (the current rules are basically useless as they don't make any sense for trying to apply patchwork armour in a campaign setting to an existing mech, you want to put normal armour on the arm? I'm sorry, the Ferro-Fibrous armour that was until now covering the rest of your mech no longer fits and magically falls off). I think, from lots of tinkering with designs, that Improved jumpjets are fine; they take so much space and weight and you always have to closely compare the Improved JJ design with the better engine, more heatsinks and standard JJ design, the latter often turning out to be superior. They do gain something of an edge if you're using Fusion Engines as we have to in this contest, they're balanced around XL engines which is fair enough, they shouldn't be available when Fusion engines are the best tech. Partial Wing is too good because it gives you two resources 'at the going rate' or even slightly better but also gives you an additional boost.

For a 60 tons mech:
-3 heat sinking via Double Heat sinks: 1.5 tons 3 crits
+1 Jump movement (over Walk MP): 2 tons, 2 crits
Total: 3.5 tons, 5 crits

Partial Wing -3 heat +1 Jump: 3 tons 6 crits

So they seem similar but Partial Wing also gives you the increased maximum jump benefit so outperforms both Improved Jumpjets and Double heatsinks.

For Medium mechs they're even better:
55 ton mech
-3 heat DHS: 1.5 tons 3 crits
+2 Jump movement (over Walk MP): 2 tons 4 crits
Total: 3.5 tons 7 crits

Partial Wing:
3 tons 6 crits

I love them from a flavour point of view, from a game design point of view they're too strong.


Edited by ix (08/09/10 07:26 PM)
KitK
08/10/10 03:53 PM
69.11.4.21

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8 mill C-bills becomes all about the engine (size and type) - anything lighter than a standard starts taking up well over 50% of the cost. So this is a bit slower than I would like. There are crits for endosteel or ferro fiberous but I was trying to keep below 8.6M $C. I'd also have preferred ER mediums, but again the cost.

It runs hot. It's suppose to.

Code:
 Bastion 420

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Cost: 8,592,960 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,487


Power Plant: 240 Light Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.5 km/h
Jump Jets: Yes
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 PPCs
1 MML-7
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: CMCDesigns


================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 99 points 6.00
Engine: Light Fusion Engine 240 9.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT 4.00
Heat Sinks: Double 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT
Gyro: Standard Gyro 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 192 12.00
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 27
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 14 20
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 14 25

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Lasers RA 6 2 2.00
PPC LA 10 3 7.00
MML-7 RT 4 4 4.50
PPC LT 10 3 7.00
@MML-7 (SRM) (14) RT - 1 1.00
@MML-7 (LRM) (17) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 21

KitK
09/08/10 11:08 PM
69.11.5.13

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Well, it looks like SSW miscalculated the Bastion's cost, failing to include the cost of ammo. MegaMek puts it at 8,920,960 and I calculate it at 8,684,160. So still in the $8M.

Nice job on those coming in under budget. What I found challenging about this was to actually try to use the budget without massively overrunning it.

I made a rough estimate based on the average cost of 3025 era 60 ton mechs and guessed $8M to be about a 60% spending increase. If you apply that much of an increase to the range of Mechs (Assuming each hit $8M exactly) you get a range of spending increase from 46%-78%.

That strikes me as a pretty generous boost in military spending on one hand, and on the other hand it's not much compared to the new stuff to hit the battlefield after 3050 with all of those XL engines. Oh, and let's not forget the WOB skimming all that dough off the HPG's to fund their hightech army.

At any rate, I found this challenging and applied 60% to other weights (30, 50, 80). I'd say it wasn't a good idea to apply the same rate across weight classes. (not enough for 80, almost too generous at 30). So, are there actual numbers for what would be a reasonable increase for house armies? More than doubling the costs of mechs is fine if cost isn't and issue, but what if the Sphere's market simply couldn't bear it? I would think that many were near broke after the jihad if not before it.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
09/09/10 08:15 PM
173.116.238.37

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I have always found vehicles far better because of there cost.

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/150980/an/0/page/5#150980
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/150962/an/0/page/5#150962

Either one can take out a light mech for twenty present of the cost of the mech that it took out. I could outfit an entire regiment for the cost of one lance of assault mechs. At 33 to 1 odds the lance of mechs will be over ran. Yes, I would lose a lot of vehicles but I will more than make up for it in salvaging the mechs
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
KitK
09/10/10 10:59 PM
69.11.5.13

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Yes, we know you like vehicles and can buy them in hordes if money were an issue.

But that is irrelavent. Dropping an XL engine in a tank is going to shoot its price up as well. So the question is the same for an army of tanks as it is for an army of mechs. What's a reasonable increase in military funding? For example if you were paying x-Million C-bills for military hardware item A, but you needed a replacement or upgrade to stay competitive, would you be willing to pay x-Million + 120% or only x-Million +40%. With that parameter set, then as a manufacturer you want to build something that taps that extra cash the army is willing to pay, wherein lies the challenge.

Soooo . . . take your favorite 3025 era, 60 ton tank and add 60% to its cost. See Karagin's original post for other (non cost) parameters and upgrade or design from scratch to meet that cost as closely as possible. And, post it here so we can see.

KK
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
09/14/10 09:52 AM
174.144.7.213

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Putting a XL engine into a vehicle is a wast and pointless because you have to add an extra 50% to any fusion power plant that is put into any vehicle. You also defeat the whole advantage in vehicles, there cheap cost.

Other than putting in fusion power plants into vehicles so you can take advantage of there built in ten heat sinks and use of lasers with out amplifiers you don't do much upgrading because again you defeat the cost savings. You also keep the vehicles as light as possible so there not bonged down with heavy and costly power plants or other equipment.

One vehicle verses one mech when there both over 35 tons the mech will win every time. The real advantage of vehicles is the use of large numbers of light cheap vehicle swarming one or very few heaver mechs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Zandel_Corrin
09/14/10 04:42 PM
123.2.140.247

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You don't have to go XL to get the same increase in effectiveness.

You also didn't answer the question about what YOU would do to upgrade 3025 vehicle designs for the military and what you think would be a good increase in spending to keep up with the market but still stay cheap-ish.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
09/14/10 05:17 PM
173.151.181.176

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Quote:

You also didn't answer the question about what YOU would do to upgrade 3025 vehicle designs for the military and what you think would be a good increase in spending to keep up with the market but still stay cheap-ish.




There are lots of new weapons and other equipment that I don't even know about since the game books that I once had where maybe ten years out of date or more when they disappeared two years ago. People on this forum keep mentioning stuff that I say, "WTF is that!"

Its not so much of what ones budget is but what one gets out of the budget that they have. I could defeat a 50 million CBill battle mech with a force of vehicles that cost one quarter of that. Look at world history. A $2 molotov cocktail could destroy a 10 million dollar main battle tank by cooking off its ammo.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
KitK
09/15/10 10:32 AM
69.11.4.75

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Well, I've never done a tank before, so this might not be a great tank.

Took a Manticore Heavy Tank
240 Engine (4/5)
PPC
LRM 10 @ 1
SRM 6 @ 1
ML
11 Tons St. Armor (176)
3 Heatsinks

Original is C-2,640,800
60% increase shoots for C-4,225,280


New Manticore Heavy Omni Tank (Prime)
C-4,251,000 (25,720 over target)

300 Engine (5/8)
15 ton turret pod
PPC (Turret)
MML 9 (Turret)
..LRM @ 1 (Body)
..SRM @ 1 (Body)
Artemis IV FCS (Turret)
MG (Turret)
..MG @ .5 (Body)
ML (Front)
8.5 Tons Heavy Ferr- Fibrous (168)
3 Heatsinks


KK
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
09/15/10 01:43 PM
72.57.134.129

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Not a bad go at it.

But when it comes to vehicles bigger is not better. The more costly you make it the more you lose when its destroyed.

I would drop it to a 30 ton tank strip everything out other than the PPC and bump the speed to 5/8

150 engine (5/8)
.7 turret
PPC in turret
9.5 tons standard armor

For a cost of 836,550 CBills and I would buy 5 of them for a cost of 4,182,750 CBills 4.2m is about what a medium mech runs and how many medium mechs can stand up to 5 PPC carrying tanks? The mech might take out one of the tanks before it was destroyed. Say I lost two tanks to the cost of one mech. I would have lost 1.7m CBills of tanks to there 4.2m CBill Mech. I will also still have three tanks to keep the fight going.

Or I could field 11 of the following tanks for your 4,225,000 budget. A 100 ton Clan assault mech would be hard pressed to destroy all of them tanks before it its self was destroyed.

cost 383,300 CBills

tech level IS 3
tank weight 20
chassis type track
engine 100 fusion 4.5t
cruse speed 5
Flank speed 8
Lift/rotor/other none
control 1t
IS 2t

Armor IS/Armor 84 5.25t

Front 2/30
LT/RT 2/15
Back 2/8
Turret 2/16

Weapons/ammo placement weight
Large Laser turret 5
MG front .5
MG ammo (50) body .25
Infantry Squad body 1t
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Schevv
09/15/10 02:58 PM
91.33.21.238

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For a mere 10k C-Bills more you can mount that Large Laser onto a VTOL having it moving much faster:

Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 10 pts Standard 0 1,50
Engine: 25 Fusion 0 ,50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 ,50
Cruise MP: 8
Flank MP: 12
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 ,00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 1,00
Crew: 1 Members 0 ,00
Rotor Equipment: Main/Tail Rotors 0 1,50
Armor Factor: 80 pts Standard 0 5,00

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 2 28
Left / Right Sides: 2 19/19
Rear: 2 12
Rotor: 2 2

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Large Laser Front 8 1 5,00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 8 1 15,00
Items & Tons Left: 7 ,00

Total Cost: 390.000 C-Bills



And for the original topic, I thought about building the 'Mech around the all-mighty Gauss Rifle
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 99 pts Endo Steel 14 3,00
Engine: 240 6 11,50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 3 ,00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 RT)
Gyro: 4 3,00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3,00
Armor Factor: 200 pts Standard 0 12,50

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 20 29
Center Torso (Rear): 10
L/R Side Torso: 14 21/21
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 7/7
L/R Arm: 10 20/20
L/R Leg: 14 28/28

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Gauss Rifle RA 1 16 9 17,00
(Ammo Locations: 2 RT)
3 ER Medium Lasers LT 15 3 3,00
1 Guardian ECM LT 0 2 1,50
1 SRM 6 CT 4 15 3 4,00
(Ammo Locations: 1 RT)
1 C Slave Unit HD 0 1 1,00
CASE Equipment: RT 1 ,50
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 20 67 60,00
Crits & Tons Left: 11 ,00

Total Cost: 6.220.160 C-Bills

The Gauss is a decent weapon on (almost) all ranges, M-Lasers add punch on Med or Short Ranges and the SRM tries to find some open spots in the armor. ECM is always nice and with the ECCM-rules it may also help to protect the C-network against enemy ECM.



And my Clan 'Mech idea priced at almost 7M

Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 99 pts Endo Steel 7 3,00

Engine: 300 6 19,00
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 0 ,00
Gyro: 4 3,00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3,00
Armor Factor: 192 pts Ferro-Fibrous 7 10,00


Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 20 28
Center Torso (Rear): 9
L/R Side Torso: 14 20/20
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 7/7
L/R Arm: 10 19/19
L/R Leg: 14 27/27

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 ER PPC RA 15 2 6,00
2 ER Medium Lasers LA 10 2 2,00
1 Adv. Tact. Msl. 9 RT 6 28 8 9,00
(Ammo Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT)
1 Adv. Tact. Msl. 9 LT 6 4 5,00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 37 61 60,00
Crits & Tons Left: 17 ,00

Cost: 6.920.960

PPC and ATM can cover all ranges and the Med-Lasers for added punch on short ranges.
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