Kraken Hunter-Killer Submarine

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12/30/13 01:05 PM
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No expenses were spared in the creation of this hunter killer submarine. Intended to be used by the best of the best, these curbstomp any opposition short to an opposing force with a huge number advantage. It's armor protection is massive and enhanced by two laser AMS systems on the nose. An Armored Motive System lets it take a lot of punishment with little fear of becoming stranded. HarJel makes breaches a non-issue as long as the armor holds. The LRT/20 racks are attached to an Artemis-V to make them as accurate as possible, and an Angel ECM Suite minimizes the effects of enemy Artemis equipped launchers(and they can perform double-duty as ECCM). A Bloodhound Active Probe lets it seek out all but the most stealthy vessels.
Only one self-sufficient underwater factory currently creates the Kraken in Crossroads.
----
Kraken Hunter-Killer
Mixed(Base Clan)
95 tons
BV ???
Cost 30 million something... I think.

Movement 3/5(Submarine)
Engine 255 XL

Internal 40
Armor 370 Heavy Ferro Fibrous

Location Internal Armor
FR 10 140
RS 10 95
LS 10 95
RR 10 40

Weapons Loc
LRT 20 w/ Artemis V FR
LRT 20 w/ Artemis V FR
Laser AMS FR
Laser AMS FR

Ammo
5 tons Artemis V capable LRT 20 ammo w/ CASE

Equipment Location
HarJel FR
HarJel RS
HarJel LS
HarJel RR
Armored Chassis BD
Armored Motive System BD
Angel ECM Suite BD
Bloodhound Active Probe BD

Optional Quirks:
Improved Communications
Improved Sensors
Improved Targeting(Long)
Distracting
CrayModerator
12/30/13 08:31 PM
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Since it's a Clan vehicle, it will be facing Clan weapons for at least part of its service. This means its weapons (LRTs) do not have a very large range advantage against underwater Clan energy weapons, no more than 5 hexes. Also, it doesn't have much of a speed advantage against some of the fastest Clan 'Mechs.

This isn't necessarily a problem. A 5-hex range advantage is perfectly exploitable. However, in the case of the Kraken, the torpedoes are in fixed forward mounts. This means sharply constrains your attack angles. Against fast 'Mechs (those with 12 or more forward movement), you won't even be able to backup to keep the range open.

Simple solution: turret.

A turret lets you fire from all angles as you maneuver to keep the range open. Do drive-by torpedoings, head-on charges, and fire over your should as you speed away to increase the range again. Using this vehicle would become a lot faster and easier because you'd be able to fire on almost every turn.

You can probably find the tonnage by downsizing the missile launchers. In underwater combat, it is more important to simply hit the target than to destroy the armor. Breach rolls give a good chance of flooding entire sections with just a few points of damage, so you want to land lots of hits rather than particularly heavy hits. (For that reason, you might consider LRM 5s instead of larger launchers.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/30/13 09:57 PM
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Why would a Clan have a weaponized subs?

Subs are a pain in the butt to transport to other worlds.

They are of little use in taking other worlds since most worlds main population centers are not under water nor are their military bases.

Last, hiding under water is not a Clan like tactic.

I see no reason that the Clans would build weaponized subs when battlemechs are quite capable of fight under water.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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TigerShark
12/30/13 10:09 PM
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They're like vehicles: A way to defend a static asset cheaply and effectively.

Clans are still, at their heart, a conglomerate of military organizations. Honor matters to the individual warrior, but as you go higher up in the ranks, the honor of the Clan and its prosperity matters more. That's why you see things like nuclear warheads, warships, artillery, TAG, etc. still in production.

At times, the honor of the warrior must be set aside for the good of the Clan. In the case of a submarine, it's a cost-effective way to keep underwater or island facilities safe from assault.
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12/31/13 01:34 AM
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Only one self-sufficient underwater factory currently creates the Kraken in Crossroads.
Still an alternate history faction design with clan tech for the lack of a better alternative. Just like my more recent submarine. I'm wondering if in the future I should bold and caps that at the beginning of the posts.

Anyways, it's a big thing that hunts other big things. It's not supposed to fight the faster mechs and stuff. (though, underwater I believe their movement is hindered, so that 12/18 mech won't be... seeing as a hex costs 4 points per, it'll be more like a 4/6 mech. If it has 12 UMUs, that mech better have an XXL engine, otherwise it won't be packing much punch.). Either way, you don't need a turret, in my experience it's just careful positioning. In battles bigger than lance size, it's not an issue, as you can't keep everything out of the arc of everything or anything. All this is irrelevant though, because I use different, faster subs to deal with the speedy flankers.

If I recall right, subs don't require special vehicle bays to transport them, and you can *technically* land your dropship in the middle of the ocean to deposit them.

Plus, you need less battlemech specific materials to make the sub. And you don't need to invest in as much HarJel per mech, no MASS, no UMUs, none of that crap. And then a battlemech still seems to be albeit inferior in underwater combat, seeing as they are likely to be breached quite quickly with their numerious but thin hit locations. Battlemechs just can't be the king of everything.

I'd rather have the larger launchers with Artemis V to squeeze every last drop of utility out of them possible. That -1 to-hit mod and +3 on the cluster hits table is just too useful for me to willingly switch it out to LRT/5 spam.

The longest of the clan energy weapons is the ER laser and PPC, both with a max range of 16. I can deal with that.

And not all worlds are deserts. You can't just say they are of little use because many of them don't have underwater cities or bases. What almost every world will have, though, is their major cities lying on the coasts. As far as I see it, you can take the coasts in two ways... From the ocean to the beaches in an amphibious operation, or from inland outwards to the coast. There's not much reason

Anyways, once megamek fixes the sub issue where HarJel does nothing('cause it's biased to only protect mechs apparently), I'll take your "completely capable" underwater combat tweaked mechs up against my dedicated HarJel submarines any day of the week.
CrayModerator
12/31/13 09:08 AM
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Quote:
I see no reason that the Clans would build weaponized subs when battlemechs are quite capable of fight under water.



BattleMechs can fight in shallow water. BattleMechs are helpless little punks once the water gets deeper than about 120 feet. See the Extreme Depths rules of House Steiner Handbook or their reprinting in the Tactical Handbook. The only unit type that operates easily across the entire range of depth options is a submarine.

Quote:
Why would a Clan have a weaponized subs?



Clans have significant underwater installations and hold trials of possession for them. The original Clan battle armors were developed from underwater exoskeletons.

Quote:
Subs are a pain in the butt to transport to other worlds.



While annoying to get from planet to planet, there are sometimes valuable assets in the water on other planets that make submarines worth the trouble.

Quote:
They are of little use in taking other worlds since most worlds main population centers are not under water nor are their military bases.



However, per A Time of War, even the most water-starved worlds often have large amounts of water-borne shipping and industrial activities.

Ovan, in A Time of War, is a case in point: it has less than 20% water coverage, but it is in the form of an equator-girdling river-ocean that forms that major transport artery for the planet. Ovan's farming is also highly dependent on tributary waterways and flood control systems. The planet is entirely dependent on that river-ocean and letting a few submarines loose in there could grab the planet by its short and curlies.

Karachi, in the A Time of War Companion, is another example. It has 11% water coverage but its population clusters around the two tiny oceans. Getting some combat submarines into those bodies of water would give you a stranglehold on the planet.

Quote:
Last, hiding under water is not a Clan like tactic.



On the other hand, mining underwater is an old Clan industrial practice. Further, the Clans have opponents (like the Federated Suns) who do hide underwater.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
12/31/13 12:23 PM
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Who is to say the clans dont have assets underwater? Anyone smart enough would. It is a good place to hide things. And if your opponent doesnt have anything that can go underwater to find it, you have a perfect base with which to raid them from.

Cray does bring up a good point and one that is decent. Breaking the lunchers into smaller units to have more possibilities to break armor/hulls is a great idea. The turret is decent but would not put all launchers in it. Even if it doesnt breach, the posibility of a turret lock still exists.

One last thing. Seems the desing threads are getting threadjacked a little more often. This conversation should be moved as well.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/13 12:58 PM
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Quote:

Ovan, in A Time of War, is a case in point: it has less than 20% water coverage, but it is in the form of an equator-girdling river-ocean that forms that major transport artery for the planet. Ovan's farming is also highly dependent on tributary waterways and flood control systems. The planet is entirely dependent on that river-ocean and letting a few submarines loose in there could grab the planet by its short and curlies.

Karachi, in the A Time of War Companion, is another example. It has 11% water coverage but its population clusters around the two tiny oceans. Getting some combat submarines into those bodies of water would give you a stranglehold on the planet.



It still comes down to its not Clan stile tactics to hide and fight a gorilla war as such such a sub would not be built by the Clans. Now if this was redesigned with SI tech I could see it totally being built even more so to counter the Clans advanced weapons and other combat technologies.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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12/31/13 01:34 PM
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Still an alternate history faction design with clan tech for the lack of a better alternative.

I read somewhere, though I can't pinpoint it now, that there was at least one instance of clans utilizing submarines in a trial. So the niche is there, especially with opportunistic clans such as Hell's Horses who don't have a strict view of zellbrigen rules and regularly use combined arms tactics.

I guess this design could be adapted either as a clan or an IS design.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/13 02:41 PM
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If I used my Mino Attack Subs in numbers I could bring even this supper sub down. Granted I might need a six to one ratio and I might take a good number of losses but I can take it down. And I would be doing that with not wasting advanced technology which would be best used elsewhere.

I would use my higher speed to maneuver my subs to your rear ark.

If I had some real good luck staying away from your front ark I might even take it down with one of my Mino Attack Subs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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TigerShark
12/31/13 02:59 PM
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The Clans did fight a protracted, guerilla-style campaign to defend Huntress. And yes, the Clans would fight such a battle. You're confusing the politics and honor of individual warriors vs. the Clan military structure.

Many larger campaigns abandon zellbrigen entirely. Happened in the fiction, happened in the canon books, on several occasions. If 100% of Clan combat were under zellbrigen, there'd be no reason to maintain their fleet or vehicle corps.
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12/31/13 03:43 PM
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You'd need more than a 6 to 1 ratio to take down the "super sub". Much, much more. And on a campaign where you have dropships that have to transport stuff.

Considering you manage to coordinate so many submarines, it is very unlikely you can manouver all of them into one of my sub's rear arcs. Every one of my submarines will likely have at least one target it can fire at per turn. And that's before you realize, like anything else I use, they aren't alone.

Not that you'll have much luck with it's front arc, with laser AMS and all.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/13 04:37 PM
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The last place I would want to be is in your front ark. With my speed of 7/11 and your 3/5 I think that I would have some say of where I can be compared to your sub.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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12/31/13 04:58 PM
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Subs. There won't ever be just one.

The arc arguement becomes less applicable the larger either side becomes.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/13 07:12 PM
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At the great amount of resources that you have to use to build yours the loss of one would be a blow to you, where I could lose dozens of mine with little regard to the costs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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12/31/13 08:16 PM
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In one turn a veteran crew can destroy up to 2 minos. One hit to the sides or rear, and they're breached. In a chokepoint along a river any number of your minos will be curbstomped like the Persians at Thermopylae.

The Kraken is also a better hunter than the minos with it's bloodhounds to locate the threats and Angel ECM suite to help conceal it. Anything with HarJel like the Kraken will curbstomp many numbers of midget subs. Which is basically it's role.

Costs could be greatly reduced by removing the armored motive system for more missile launchers or a turret. But not many designs use that system.(Or the Angel ECM Suite, or the Bloodhound Active Probe). So the use of these won't tie up other vehicle production lines, despite the high unit cost.

Don't tell me you put your veteran pilots in kamikaze Minos Attack Subs...
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/13 11:35 PM
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Yes your sub could destroy two of my mino subs if the pilots of the mino subs where dumb enough to just sit there and let your sub shoot at them.

They would be using their superior speed to their advantage. Like staying way from your front ark and keeping your to hit roll as high as possible so when they where in your front ark where you have little chance of hitting them. Since they can stay at range do to your slow speed they can pick and choose when to come within range to fire where its to their advantage and not yours.

Subs are of little use in small water ways like large rivers like say the Mississippi. If a sub cant dive its just a sitting target. The caption of your sub would rather chop his arm off than to take his ship up into a river of any size.

The only person that thinks that they are kamikaze ships is you where you think that they will just stand still wail you take careful aim at them. They will be moving at flank speed at long range hoping that you will wast ammo shooting at them.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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12/31/13 11:59 PM
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Talk to me once you figure out a way to keep your 50 or so mino swarm somehow out of the arcs of many krakens. It just won't happen.

At larger scale conflicts manouver tactics aren't as effective as you can't keep out of the way of everything since there's just so many things to be shot with. Try to do so in a 8v8 and be disappointed.
At flank speed, your 7/11 sub can make a +3 target movement modifier underwater... but only if it moves in a straight line. If it turns at all, it becomes a +2. To keep out of my arc you probably have to turn often, leaving it a modest at best +2 most of the time.
So +2, plus whatever range. Artemis V makes that -1. +1/+3/+5 at S/M/L ranges. The Krakens will probably be moving backwards or not at all, depending on the position. With larger conflicts, often one does not simply leave the firing arc of one unit without probably entering one of another. At SR, a 4/5 pilot will have no problem hitting a Mino, with a TH of 5. Unfortunately for you, being reserved for the best of the best, pilots will probably have gunnery skills of 3, 2, or even 1. None will have problems at S or M ranges, and LR shots are always quite possible.

Rivers like the Amazon are so big you often can't even see from one side to the other. Park something with an arrow or a huge something with a long tom and give your friendlies some nice arty support. If it's deep enough to submerge to a safe depth, even better.

If you're on the surface in order to use flank speed, you are vulnerable to VTOLs, convfighters, aerofighters, WiGEs, displacement vessels, hydrofoils, hovercraft, and more. If you insist regardless of the support I have above, I can just dive down to the depths if I'm not already, forcing you to pursue me and losing your flanking speeds.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/01/14 09:26 AM
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Why would I not use flank speed wail submerged!?! That is just foolish.

As for anything other than mechs that are below the surface, (displacement vessels, hydrofoils, hovercraft with torpedoes), under water armed fixed bunkers, and other subs nothing can attack a submerged sub.

I totally doubt you would have more than four of your subs do to the great cost and lack of use in the broader inter space conflict to be making vast numbers of them
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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I am now a General *pain*
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01/01/14 06:09 PM
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Why not use flank speed while submerged? I think there is a rule somewhere, but I can't find them to save my life. At least in Megamek it's impossible to expend your flanking MP when submerged w/ a submarine. I don't think it's a bug though, it should be more difficult to trudge through water than mostly air.

Any unit, with LoS and torps or energy weapons required to hit underwater targets can hit a submerged submarine.

The cost for a single unit is mostly made up of the electronic suites and the Armored Motive System. You don't need a whole lot of subs to cover your force with AECM coverage and benefit from a Bloodhound, and an incredibly durable platform at that.(Though you seem to want to compare it on a 1v1 basis, or at least dismiss the fact that they won't be alone...)
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01/01/14 06:10 PM
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One thing that honestly irritates me is the inability of any sort of VTOL to do anti-submarine duty.
CrayModerator
01/01/14 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Quote:

Ovan, in A Time of War, is a case in point: it has less than 20% water coverage, but it is in the form of an equator-girdling river-ocean that forms that major transport artery for the planet. Ovan's farming is also highly dependent on tributary waterways and flood control systems. The planet is entirely dependent on that river-ocean and letting a few submarines loose in there could grab the planet by its short and curlies.

Karachi, in the A Time of War Companion, is another example. It has 11% water coverage but its population clusters around the two tiny oceans. Getting some combat submarines into those bodies of water would give you a stranglehold on the planet.



It still comes down to its not Clan stile tactics to hide and fight a gorilla war as such such a sub would not be built by the Clans.



However, Clans do fight in the water for aquatic assets like mines, underwater cities, underwater command posts, and ships. A submarine is a useful way to seize enemy shipping in a trial of possession. Hence, a Clan submarine makes sense in those sorts of battles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
01/01/14 06:28 PM
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Quote:
The arc arguement becomes less applicable the larger either side becomes.



To an extent, but limiting the firing arcs of the Kraken's main weapons is still not a good idea. A turret is a huge force-multiplier because each sub gets a chance to fire each turn at preferred targets.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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01/01/14 08:03 PM
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In my experience turrets are overrated underwater. In addition it would require me to thin out the armor into 5 locations and add even more of the rare and precious HarJel. Quite frankly there's nothing I would want to sacrifice for that extra turret.

Plus it ruins the aesthetics.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/02/14 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
The arc arguement becomes less applicable the larger either side becomes.



To an extent, but limiting the firing arcs of the Kraken's main weapons is still not a good idea. A turret is a huge force-multiplier because each sub gets a chance to fire each turn at preferred targets.



Normally I would disagree with you on this but since his sub so large, slow and only has two weapons I will have to agree with you this one time. If you can keep out of his front ark and do its slow movement that is not out of the question his sub is a sitting duck. It would do a great deal better do to its slow speed with his weapons being in a turret.

If the weapons where in a turret I would not want to engage it do to the great losses I would sustain because I could not out flank it.

If I had to engage it with the two LRT-20s in a turret because I had no choice in the matter I would want at least ten to one to a fifteen to one numerical advantage so I can take a great deal of losses and still win the battle.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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01/02/14 11:51 PM
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Tell me how you are going to keep at least part of the swarm out of any one sub's arc, keeping in mind that the Kraken is only a small part of the entire blue water based battlegroups.

And it still ruins the aesthetics, and IMO the extra part jutting out *should* reduce your speed underwater.(Pretty sure drag is a problem in any fluid, not just air.) At least if I had to house rule it, that'd be the case.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/03/14 12:10 AM
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Quote:
At least if I had to house rule it, that'd be the case.



BT dose not have such a rule so your abjection is irrelevant. My subs can move up to 11 hexes under water. Deal with the rules as they are not as you want them to work because they are inconvenient to your subs design.

I would be surprised if such a rule would ever be made cannon do to subs being so far of the writers radar.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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I am now a General *pain*
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01/03/14 01:13 AM
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In Megamek they can't move 11 hexes underwater. They are limited to cruising speeds, for whatever reason that may be.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/03/14 01:32 AM
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Quote:
In Megamek they can't move 11 hexes underwater. They are limited to cruising speeds, for whatever reason that may be.



Does Megamek have something to do with Battletech cannon?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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01/03/14 01:40 AM
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Let's put it this way. If your theoretical force manages to somehow get past the entire armada that is benefitting from it's BHP and AECM to flank it to death, the entire battlegroup is going to have more problems than it's "flagship" lacking a turret(even though it will be virtually impossible for the entire force to keep out of the way of even one additional sub). It's not going to be a problem one turret and 2 LRT/20s with Artemis V attached can solve(Plus the additional tonnage from the turret, the additional necessary harjel, and the overall thinner armor... and where would you sacrifice for the addition?)
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01/03/14 01:41 AM
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It is supposed to follow the rules of battletech *canon* rules. So in a way yeah.
ghostrider
01/03/14 02:45 AM
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does the artemis system work underwater? I thought it was laser based, and they have a limited range. Could be my mistake.

I could understand limiting the speed a sub goes underwater, though not sure if btech has done so yet. I would think that all units moving underwater would be slowed down just like a mech walking thru deep water, but not sure. Would figure the stress of making a turn that fast underwater would snap it in half.

I agree its way expensive, but if it does that job, then thats all that matters. Yes, it would be better to use cheaper units to do that job, and one problem with most clans is they dont think vehicles worth a damn to spend that kind of money.

As was mentioned before. Breaking them into smaller multiple launchers would solve some of it. More chance to breach, as well as engaging multiple targets.

Still an interesting design. The ecm might make all the difference, if it works against sonar. Cannt find it if you cannt see it.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/03/14 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Still an interesting design. The ecm might make all the difference, if it works against sonar. Cannt find it if you cannt see it.



A lot of subs use passive sonar and if something is actively moving in water its going to make noise. Active sonar cant be avoided and if your using active sonar to look on to your target everyone and their brother is going to know exactly where you are.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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I am now a General *pain*
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01/03/14 10:17 AM
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Run on silent much?

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.

Read the last line of that again, and then thrice.

And this is just the Guardian ECM Suite

Active sonar just got avoided bro?

And then to deal with subs running passive? Bloodhounds. Also I believe they can detect minefields so you don't accidentally waltz in 'em. Another plus.

Yes, the artemis V works underwater. There is torpedo Artemis V capable ammunition.


Edited by Retry (01/03/14 10:30 AM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/03/14 12:16 PM
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I wander why HARM ammo has not been added to the game to track and engage Guardian broadcasting units.

I might add HARM ammo as a house rule if I ever have a chance to have the free time to play BT again.

I never understood why Guardian units would be so affective all one has to to is track the broadcasting unit and aim for where the signal is coming from.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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01/04/14 12:13 AM
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What the hell is a HARM missile? Whatever it is, if it could have been developed by now it would have been, seeing the incredibly prevalent ECM of all sorts.

One does not simply lock onto a jamming device. Otherwise it's not doing it's job, is it?
ghostrider
01/04/14 01:41 PM
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harm is an anti radar missle used by the militaries today. I think its high altitude radiation missle. They used them in iraq during that war.
If I recall, they can fire them, and if the enemy turns off the radar, they will fly as high as they can if a target lock is lost, and parachute down to a preset altitude. If they radar is turned back on, it locks. If the radar isnt turned back on before the preset hieght, then it goes for the last target lock it has.

As for ways around the guardian. If you have a jamming device present, it shouldnt be that hard to figure out where the jammer is. I have not seen anything stating you can change the size of the jammer, so the middle of the jamming radius hold the jammer. Shouldnt be that hard to take it out with an artillery shot if it stable. Maybe a bomber could drop something as well. They dont need target locks to blow up the area.
Yes this thought doesnt really work underwater, but does well on the surface or land.
Retry
01/04/14 03:27 PM
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It jams Artemis IV, V, and sonar. It works fine.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/04/14 06:49 PM
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HARM missiles are very popular in Car Wars do to all of the radar type of devises used in that game system.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
01/04/14 07:15 PM
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One interesting thing about jammers. They dont block your return signals. Now if its because its set for a certain frequency, then the enemy should be able to determine what frequency they are being scanned on and change to that one. Even if its good for only one shot, you might stop the jamming.

No, retry, this is not trying to undermine your design. Just a stupid thought I have had about jammers in the game.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/27/14 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Why not use flank speed while submerged? I think there is a rule somewhere, but I can't find them to save my life. At least in Megamek it's impossible to expend your flanking MP when submerged w/ a submarine. I don't think it's a bug though, it should be more difficult to trudge through water than mostly air.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

Propulsion:
1 MTU 16V 396 diesel-engine[1]
9 HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells, 30–40 kW each (U31)
2 HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells 120 kW (U32, U33, U34)[citation needed]
1 Siemens Permasyn electric motor 1700 kW,[citation needed] driving a single seven-bladed skewback propeller
Speed: 20 knots (37 km/h) submerged, 12 knots surfaced.
Range:
8,000 nautical miles (14,800 km, or 9,196 miles) at 8 knots (15 km/h)
Endurance: 3 weeks without snorkeling, 12 weeks overall

The Type 121 submarine is "FASTER" when submerged and not when it is running on the surface.

So not only do the rules not agree with you but real world submarines do not agree with you.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/27/14 11:30 PM
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I had looked at almost all US and Russian current military submarines and I had not found one sub that was faster on the surface than submerged. A good many had double or more the speed under water than on the surface.

This is just a guess on my part but I would say the reason for this is that the propeller is not fully under water and is far less affective pushing the ship.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Retry
01/27/14 11:47 PM
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WWII U-Boats ran faster on the surface.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/28/14 12:03 AM
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I think that subs that are in the 34th century are a weeeeee more advanced than WW2 technology.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Retry
01/28/14 01:17 AM
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They are also not modern day subs. If you gave a canon ICE heavy vehicle an Abrams engine it would likely be faster with more tonnage to spare.
Retry
01/28/14 01:44 AM
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Oh, and you are right, they are more advanced. More advanced enough to overcome problems with turbulence and such that slows down teardrop subs on the surface. But overcoming water resistance would not be so simple as "tech up". Hence with the problems of modern subs cured they should still be slower underwater.
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