Retry
02/16/14 11:45 PM
67.239.109.174
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It's not so much as having it questioned or criticized as it is that you continuously push your poorly constructed arguements. It was clearest when you commented that the VSS was "not needed" because you could counter it simply by looking at it w/o sensors, which could not be further from the truth.
And quite frankly, you are rude.
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ghostrider
02/17/14 01:27 AM
24.30.128.72
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The enemy having ecm and such might counter everything this unit has. That is possible. It is possible the enemy might have a hatchet wielding mech to take it out. There are a lot of possibilities.
I can see retry likes the ecm/stealth on alot of units. It is my guess that the enemy either is not using, or cares to use them. There is no big problem with this. Atn loves his oversized units, probably because his opponents don't use logic to take them out. It is how each player does his thing.
One of these days you need to get cray or nic to host a game for you to play in. Then you could see how each other uses units.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/17/14 06:40 AM
172.56.8.162
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Quote:
One of these days you need to get cray or nic to host a game for you to play in. Then you could see how each other uses units.
Oh the humanity!!!
That would be such a one sided slaughter! Retry would go down within just a couple of turns.
Karagin Might be even a worse opponent depending on his military training in tactics. Someone that would be really bad to go up against is a chest master that loves BT.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
02/17/14 11:15 AM
70.118.139.48
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Seeing how I don't use MegaMek, their hosting a game for me would not happen. I play face to face on the table top with real dice and real people. And I do try to make many of the gaming conventions in Texas.
But if you feel that your stuff is so much better Retry then hey that is as I said your opinion. I point out that you don't need something and showed that the same mech can be built on a smaller chassis, which was my point, doing the same over all job. You didn't like it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 12:36 PM
67.239.109.174
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Gimping it with an XL engine and less-than-max armor hardly makes it the same mech.
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Karagin
02/17/14 01:06 PM
70.118.139.48
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Right and a 100 ton crawling mech that sole reason of being built is to support BA...that is way better not.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 01:13 PM
67.239.109.174
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Because a bigger engine would benefit a mech using VSS so much...
(Hint:It doesn't. Tested in game)
Edited by Retry (02/17/14 01:20 PM)
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KamikazeJohnson
02/17/14 02:00 PM
50.72.218.68
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I'm torn on this. It's hard to deny the effectiveness of something that Just. Won't. Die. Twin cLPLs make is a dangerous machine to ignore while you focus on the Battlearmour.
On the other hand, the complete lack of speed drastically reduces its ability to affect the battle, so unless it's tasked with guarding a critical installation, it can probably be simply bypassed. Then there's the price tag: 20 million just to back up infantry. I would expect the battlearmour would benefit more from rapit transport into the thick of the fight.
If my mission was to kill this thing and its associated infantry, I could see that being extremely difficult...would probably have to weather the LPL fire until I cleared the infantry, then mob it from close range, ideally with my own pulse lasers.
In the grand scheme of things, it would probably be more effective to use a 50-ton knock-off, and field 3-4 times as many if them. With each 'Mech and its Battlearmour creating a little island on the battlefield, they would be much more difficult to bypass or ignore.
Overall, I like the concept, but having to commit 100 tons of High Tech expense to supporting infantry just seems inefficient.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/17/14 02:25 PM
70.118.139.48
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So you are saying Kamikaze that they form the old square infantry formation akin to the British did in the Napoleonic Wars?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/17/14 02:47 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
So you are saying Kamikaze that they form the old square infantry formation akin to the British did in the Napoleonic Wars?
Lol...more or less...although it would be more of a "hex" formation than a "square" formation, wouldn't it?
And same as that era, it should be quite effective, as long as the enemy isn't deploying area-effect like artillery or bombing/strafing runs.
Or nukes...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/17/14 02:49 PM
70.118.139.48
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Correct it would be a hex shape lol....yeah area-effect weapons will make things less wonderful for anyone.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/17/14 03:31 PM
24.30.128.72
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So Karagin has a set of loaded dice. Good to know 
The one thing that seems to be implied is that the enemy has one mech attacking this mech with supporting battle armor. If this is the case, then yes, the one mech should lose.
Have you tested it with the same amount of battle armor on both sides with the mechs? I know that sounds bad, but I think it needed to be asked.
I can see where retry has probably been burned from critted xl engines. It is a pain when you can't fire everything at once all the time. The heat build up bites.
I will say I have not played as much as it sounds like some people have. Most of the time, the game was settled before the armor was stripped off a mech. Always that torso crit taking out part of an engine, or gyro. Or someone decides everything belongs in one arm and when its gone, the mech dies quickly. I have talked with one person that was the unluckiest person I know. He would strip all the armor off a mech before he could do a single point of damage to the internals of his enemies. Just really bad luck there.
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Karagin
02/17/14 03:41 PM
70.118.139.48
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Loaded dice...yeah I wish.
Good point that most fights are over long before armor loss becomes the major issue. We have all had a mech lost to the XL engine getting critted to death, it happens. Saying that is the sole reason not use one is not much a of reason. Knowing a unit's strengths and weaknesses means more then justing know the max effective range of the weapons or picking weapons that only can kill things in one hit, all of that means nothing if you can't get the mech into the fight.
And I provided alternate chassies, while not perfect, sit fit the bill in the idea of the mech supporting infantry and were far cheaper then the 100 ton crawling monster mech, and Retry didn't like the idea, similar ATN's attitude, on how a smaller cheaper mech can do the job. Granted it had draw backs but it still did the job.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/17/14 03:42 PM
70.118.139.48
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Imagine the BA and the supporting mech making the "hex" formation, with whole cluster doing the same and the other side charging in and breaking around these "island", it would be very interesting to see what happens. A modern Waterloo...LOL!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/17/14 04:19 PM
24.30.128.72
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technically an old style locust or stinger or vulcan would be infantry support mechs. A firestarter mech would be as well.
I guess the best thing to do is define infantry support.
My opinion is a unit that is designed to wipe out large groups of infantry quickly, with some firepower to deal with bunkers and hardened fire positions. They may hang back until the infantry finds an enemy, probably something they can't deal with, and call in the back up.
If this is the case, anything can be infantry support. This could include battle armor.
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Karagin
02/17/14 04:30 PM
70.118.139.48
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Good points.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 04:40 PM
67.239.109.174
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"Cheaper" is very, very relative and abstract in this case. Especially when using some of the most advanced systems in the existance of Battletech. The Void system, the AECM and BHP, and lastly the Nova CEWs. Regardless of the mech chassis and they are mounted on, regardless of the up-front cost, when you lose one of these systems, well...
I'm using the british/french Infantry Tank concept to define the Infantry Support Mech.
"Infantry tanks were designed to support foot soldiers in the attack. To achieve this, the vehicles were generally heavily armoured to allow them to operate in close concert with infantry even under heavy fire. The extra armour came at the expense of speed, which was not an issue when supporting relatively slow moving infantry"
XL engines are not too big an issue on standard mechs who just need to have that extra weight so they can get a bunch of headcappers in the battle. But this one is by design supposed to be the Zombie mech of Zombie mechs so it could support infantry for as long as possible. XL engines in this regard does not help achieve this goal.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/17/14 04:43 PM
24.114.22.123
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Quote:
technically an old style locust or stinger or vulcan would be infantry support mechs. A firestarter mech would be as well.
I guess the best thing to do is define infantry support.
My opinion is a unit that is designed to wipe out large groups of infantry quickly, with some firepower to deal with bunkers and hardened fire positions. They may hang back until the infantry finds an enemy, probably something they can't deal with, and call in the back up.
If this is the case, anything can be infantry support. This could include battle armor.
Part of the original concept was to limit the 'Mech's speed to that of the unitd it's supporting, which I think is where the concept spiralled out of control...a slow 'Mech supporting Infantry/Battlearmour becomes a primary target, so itneeds to be able to survive...this unit has so much invested in survivability that it has little else to contribute...it's own firepower is matchef by most modern 30-40-tonners.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/17/14 04:45 PM
70.118.139.48
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Your idea has flaws, too many to be practical in this game really, no one is going to ignore the BA and they will destroy the mech by area denial and given that it has to weapons it not that big of a threat to a smart player who will divided it away from the infantry and defeat it in detail, just as was done to the Brits and French support tanks in the opening days of WW2.
But as you keep telling up this is alternate setting, so maybe in your take on things the concept worked...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 04:51 PM
67.239.109.174
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That's the thing about being connected to infantry regiments. One does not simply divide the Nephilidae from it's attached group.
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Karagin
02/17/14 04:56 PM
70.118.139.48
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Okay Retry if you say so, then it must be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 05:02 PM
67.239.109.174
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An additional comment:Often the hostiles won't realize the Nephilidaes are there due to their VSS until it's too late. So it will have the element of surprise among other things.
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Retry
02/17/14 05:31 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
Have you tested it with the same amount of battle armor on both sides with the mechs? I know that sounds bad, but I think it needed to be asked.
The Nephilidae's cLPLs generally shredded medium battle armor and were serious threats to heavy and assault battle armor. A direct hit(MoS of 3) do an Elemental will kill it. Conventional infantry are tricky though.
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Cray
02/17/14 07:31 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
The Clans do not use mechs to support infantry.
Yes, they do. From the first Blood of Kerensky novel to the current setting, the Clans work in a close combined arms formations. OmniMechs are designed to carry battle armor into combat.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
02/17/14 07:34 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Actually the VSS is not needed. Since it is there to support infantry and they will SEE the damn thing with their Mark One Eye Balls with or without the battlearmor HUD.
Karagin, the Void Signature System gives a blanket to-hit penalty to all attackers including infantry using their Mark One Eyeballs. Yes, the infantry will see it. They will still have a penalty to hit. Chalk it up to the benefits of camo.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/17/14 07:34 PM
70.118.139.48
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Working together and carrying them is not the same as a dedicated mech who's only job is to slog along with them supporting them only and being 100 tons on top of that.
The Clans use combined arms to a point, but once the battle is joined the mechs go off to kill other mechs and leave the battlearmor to do what they do best. And see how terrifying the Inner Sphere was of Battlearmor they built mechs to take it out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/17/14 10:26 PM
172.56.6.241
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This my the Clan IIC Blazzer
Technology Base: - Clan L3
Equipment Mass 75
Internal Structure: -Endo Steel
Engine: 375 XL
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 14(28) Double
Gyro: 4
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: Ferro-Fibrous 230 12t
Internal Armor/Armor
Internal Armor/Armor
Head 3/9
Center Torso 23/35
Center Torso(rear) -/10
R/L Torso 16/25
R/L Torso(rear) -7
R/L Arm 12/24
R/L Leg 16/32
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
ER Large Laser LA 1 4
3 Pulse Lasers LT 3 6
ER Large Laser RA 1 4
3 Pulse Lasers RT 3 6
Targeting Computer LT 2 2
Targeting Computer RT 2 2
I can stay at long range with the ERLL and pick away at Retry's meck armor even if it takes hours. Do to my speed me being over ran or him trying to retreat is not a risk. And if the armored infinity tried to attack unsupported by the walking target I can wipe them out with the MPLs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/17/14 10:30 PM
67.239.109.174
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You can't stay at long range and pick away because you can only see the mech at 15 hexes or less, since the VSS cuts the visual range by a fourth from the normal visual range of 60.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/17/14 11:33 PM
172.56.6.241
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The wiki says nothing about that. It just says there is a modifier depending on the movement of the carrying mech. The faster it moves the less the bonus.
Game Rules
A 'Mech with this system may not mount a Chameleon Light Polarization Shield, Null Signature System, or Stealth Armor. Any Satellite Uplink systems, Targeting Computers or C3 equipment cannot be mounted either.
When the system is active, a 'Mech with the system generates 10 points of heat more than it usually would. When active, the system's stealth ability depends on how much the 'Mech moved, with greater benefits with less movement. However, while the system is active, all shots fired by the unit suffer reduced accuracy.
Like Mimetic Armor, when the Void system is active attacking units gain a to-hit penalty based on the 'Mech's movement. If a Mech doesn't move, the Void system imposes a +3 to hit penalty on the attacker. A Mech that moves 1-2 hexes imposes a +2 to hit penalty, and if the Mech moves 3-5 hexes the attacker suffers a +1 to hit penalty. A Mech that moves 6 or more hexes imposes no to-hit penalty. In addition conventional infantry are less confused by the Void's electronic countermeasure systems and so any to-hit penalty imposed by the Void system is reduced by 1 point. An active Void system is invisible to every electronic probe except the Bloodhound Active Probe.[1]
The void signature system does not weigh a significant amount by itself. However, it does require an ECM suite to be installed to function. The system takes up one critical slot in each of the 'Mech's hit locations except for the head, for a total of seven critical slots. A critical hit to any of these slots (including the ECM suite) will disable the entire system.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (02/17/14 11:34 PM)
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Retry
02/17/14 11:47 PM
67.239.109.174
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Can't find it but I'm fairly certain it gives sight penalties.
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