JMInc. Operation Upgrade -- TRO:3025-3050

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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 05:59 PM
172.56.39.144

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Type/Model scout Tank
Mass: 10
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting

Equipment Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 0 1.00
Engine: 60 ICE 0 1.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 1.50
Cruise MP: 6
Flank MP: 9
Heat Sinks: 0 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 0.50
Crew: 1 Members 0 .00
Armor Factor: 32 pts standard 0 2.00

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 1 12
Left / Right Sides: 1 8/8
Rear: 1 4


Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
Beagle Active Probe body 0 - 1 1.50
TAG body 0 - 1 1.00
@Anti-Missile System front 0 12 1 1.00

Cost 435,000 C-Bills

I will admit that this dose not have the speed or the armor of KarikazeJohnson's Ostscout OTT-JM, but it costs 5.6% of his mech. You can field about 18 of these for the cost of one of his mechs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 06:03 PM
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So your going to drop four mechs for a raid and one of them is going to be completely unarmed!?!

If your going to drop a force that is big enough that it can afford to have a mech that is totally unarmed that is an invasion and not a raid.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
03/01/14 06:04 PM
70.118.139.48

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True and you can't cross many terrain features as the mech can and you are also limited on range do to the IC engine and the need for fuel. Also the damage spread on vehicles will leave this a smoking wreak faster then the mech would be.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/01/14 06:06 PM
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You could have a mech that is unarmed in a raid, that way they won't go and do something stupid like attack the enemy. They scout, mark targets and given an intel advantage to the rest of the force as well as follow up attacks.

ALL recon elements first rule is to remain unseen/undiscovered, fight only if they have too and run verses fighting because dead means no intel to your friends who are counting you and your buddies to get them the info they need to engage the other side.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 06:10 PM
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A VTAL with a machine gun as its only weapon can trash his 8 million C-Bill unarmed mech because it cant fire back.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 06:22 PM
38.108.87.20

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Quote:
I will admit that this dose not have the speed or the armor of KarikazeJohnson's Ostscout OTT-JM, but it costs 5.6% of his mech. You can field about 18 of these for the cost of one of his mechs.



Not to mention less specialized training, so it would probably be cheap to man the 18 Jeeps than to keep 1 competent 'Mechwarrior.

Like I said, some suspension of disbelief is required to accept that the Ostscout in general is worth it. But given that it has a use, this is an upgrade, at least for those who wouldn't rather have my version of the Spider.


Edited by KamikazeJohnson (03/01/14 06:23 PM)
Retry
03/01/14 06:36 PM
67.239.109.174

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Can TAG be body mounted? Cause as I understand it, it is basically a laser that guides guided weaponry, so it should have a crit location on one of the sides anyways.

Anyways, donkey, your tank has neither the speed nor the armor to be of much use in any larger conflict that uses anything bigger than Scorpion tanks.
Karagin
03/01/14 06:52 PM
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TAG can be mounted on any part of the mech you have a critical slot open.

Retry you are aware that tanks are a compromise of speed, armor and weapons, where you never get the best of all three and are lucky to get the best of two?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/01/14 07:08 PM
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Yeah, well, Donkey's tank isn't quite a mech.

You are aware if made well enough tanks don't have to compromise much of anything?
Karagin
03/01/14 07:10 PM
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Okay Retry it is clear you don't understand tanks, very clear.

And Donkey's tank is well enough for a cost worried group to use it verse a mech.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/01/14 07:25 PM
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Technically not a tank, but my already-posted Mirage chopper sacrificed none of the three.

The Charger series I also posted was average in all three catagories. A little slower than normal 55 tonners, but you can treat two of them as a whole 90 ton-ish mech.

Heck, even some canon units of the 3025 era got it. The Manticore is a solid design. The Patton and Rommel both are as well. The Rhinos are not too slow for their size while carrying a nice amount of armor and weaponry.

Really, the only time you ever have to sacrifice a serious amount of one of the three is when your design specifications are too extreme to be placed on a normal chassis anyways... *cough* Dragon HAAAV *cough*
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 07:42 PM
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Yes you can have a tank that has a XXL fusion plant and everything else that will maximize what you can pack onto the frame but then your not using the tank for what it is best for, a cheap combat unit.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Retry
03/01/14 07:47 PM
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You don't even need an XL powerplant. A fuel cell one will suffice if you don't use energy weapons, SFEs otherwise do the job.

I don't think any of my canon unit examples even uses an XXL.

If you want a cheap combat unit, you take infantry with some field guns and artillery. Perhaps some APCs but that's mostly it. Tanks are moderate cost weapons of war at worst.
KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 07:48 PM
24.114.45.78

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Anyway, could you guys please rehash the old 'Mech's vs Tanks Superiority debate sonewhere else? Keep comments here at least marginally relevent to my upgrade (if questionable value) to an established design (of questionable value)?

Thanks.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Retry
03/01/14 07:50 PM
67.239.109.174

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Well, you have a mech that only has a TAG as a "weapon". And if you don't have the proper equipment supporting you, that makes your only backup weapon your fists.
ghostrider
03/01/14 07:55 PM
24.30.128.72

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The tank is like most other units. It is good in some areas, and can't be useful in others.
Most light mechs will run down the tank when they know its there. Not much a tank can do to lose something chasing it. But the tank works and is cheaper.
Having an expensive mech that only scouts in the books and actually using one is 2 different stories. I know there is alot of times the mech is preferable to the tank. With the higher chance a single point of damage will stop a tank, the mech is sturdier.

Now I will point out the Rhino tank is not a 3025 vehicle. It was built earlier in the star league time, but was not really in use in 3025. It came from the helm core.

Now I will agree tag need to have an opening to laze the target. Other then that, it could be anywhere. A turret would be the best spot, since it can be turned to which ever direction to be used. In the body/sides including front, needs to be turned to where the target is at for the tag to function properly. If not, then stop trying to say you are trying to play a canon type of game.
KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Well, you have a mech that only has a TAG as a "weapon". And if you don't have the proper equipment supporting you, that makes your only backup weapon your fists.



1) Only deploy this model when there is proper support
2) Any pilot who attempts any sort of combat with this 'Mech deserves to fry in his cockpit.
3) Assuming the commander deploying this unit does not suffer from a case of terminal stupidity, the TAG and Active Probe are much more useful than the original's paltry single ML.
4) I would prefer to have a much more "well-rounded" unit personally, but the Ostscout is, and always has been, a specialist.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Retry
03/01/14 08:01 PM
67.239.109.174

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I don't disagree with you with the TAG tidbit, it was more of a summary of the entire mech.

(Um, can anyone tell me how exactly BAPs and BHPs work in-game?)
ghostrider
03/01/14 08:02 PM
24.30.128.72

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A tag is a support weapon, not a true line of sight instant damage weapon. I believe alot of these people have forgotten there is flight times with arrow IV systems. Unless they are on board, there is atleast a round before the ordinance reachs the battlefield.
Or did they change this as well?
Retry
03/01/14 08:04 PM
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No, Arrow IV and any other type of artillery have flight times to the target. If the arty is close though there isn't much of an issue.
KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 08:07 PM
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Quote:
I don't disagree with you with the TAG tidbit, it was more of a summary of the entire mech.

(Um, can anyone tell me how exactly BAPs and BHPs work in-game?)



Never used them myself, partly because I've never played with hidden units. As I understand it though, a Hidden unit within the effect radius of a probe is revealed if the unit with the probe (or a unit friendly to the probe unit,) has LOS.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Retry
03/01/14 08:10 PM
67.239.109.174

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Is the hidden unit rule the one that included the thing with the 60 hexes sight limit?
ghostrider
03/01/14 08:15 PM
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So you would rather spend time chasing down a weaponless mech, instead of looking for the artillery unit that is close by and eliminate it before the mech?

You know the launcher units for the artillery is slow and would have nice juicy ammo units with it, as well might be unguarded.

And there have been times that you can target a unit one round, but not the next. Even one round flight time creates havoc trying to target things.

Remember, los for tag....
Karagin
03/01/14 08:16 PM
70.118.139.48

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60 hexes? Isn't it 6 hexes or did they change the range of the probes?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/01/14 08:19 PM
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I'm talking visual range. As in if a unit isn't within 60 hexes of some other unit, it won't be seen, even if it doesn't have stealth armor or hidden bonuses of sorts.
ghostrider
03/01/14 08:30 PM
24.30.128.72

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I have not seen any canon rules that shows how far a sensor detect a unit of certain size. Or any way to determine if the unit can be found on sensors without the advanced equipment.

The Crescent Hawk game, though not official, was the closest thing I can find that had some sort of idea how sensors worked. They showed a symbol that something was there, but not what it was. Only when you got within a certain distance or visual range did it show what the unit was.

I have seen in (I think) Rhondas irregulars that they dealt with sensor baffled lifts on a battle field. They also have examples of that in the maccarons book as well though these were actually buildings with weapons in them, but in the main battle tech game, they have NO information on them. Only canon supplementals.

This is frustrating.
By the way. Did they add in the firewalls for buildings in the newer version?
They are basically case items for buildings.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 08:31 PM
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Quote:
2) Any pilot who attempts any sort of combat with this 'Mech deserves to fry in his cockpit.



To use TAG or the Beagle Active Probe you have to get within weapon range. You will be shot at!
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
03/01/14 08:33 PM
24.30.128.72

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The probe is limited to like 5 or 6 hexes. There is no doubt of taking fire unless you are lucky enough not to be spotted, or the units have nothing but sl, mgs or flamers.
KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 08:35 PM
24.114.45.78

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Quote:
The probe is limited to like 5 or 6 hexes. There is no doubt of taking fire unless you are lucky enough not to be spotted, or the units have nothing but sl, mgs or flamers.



Good reason to put the probe on a hard-to-hit unit with decent protection.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
03/01/14 08:36 PM
70.118.139.48

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Where are you getting this 60 hexes from?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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