Karagin
03/03/14 07:48 PM
70.118.139.48
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This one doesn't need DHS. SO the point is mute on using them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/03/14 07:58 PM
67.239.109.174
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2 hits to the engine with the 10 SHS will overwhelm the mech's 10 heat sinks actually, it'd be as good as taken out.
I don't see how lining tanks with side MGs to crit soak is okay but using DHS to do the same is not.
Karagin, It doesn't need anything. That doesn't give an excuse to strip out most of the weapons like the small laser or the armor just because it doesn't need it.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 08:27 PM
66.27.181.33
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First tanks can not use dhs.
You can always line mechs with mgs to soak up crits. Mg's in tanks are used to fight infantry that are more likely to attack an tank at close range, because a tank can not step on them like a mech can.
But if that is why you think tanks mount mgs, then that is your choice.
The use of double heat sinks to soak up damage is thumbing your nose at the enemy.
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Retry
03/03/14 08:41 PM
67.239.109.174
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First, your first point is irrelevant, I'm not talking about tanks with DHS.
Secondly, why spend tonnage to fit more MGs just to crit soak when you can use a DHS more efficiently for no cost in tonnage in DHS whatsoever, for many benefits for scenarios that can easily happen for an insignificant increase in CBills.
As I said, using spare DHS to crit soak is no different than using any other thing to crit soak.
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Karagin
03/03/14 08:42 PM
70.118.139.48
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Upgrading things mean things change, you work with what you have again, this one wasn't of the idea to cram all the high tech into. I am not sure why you can't see that Retry, that a mech doesn't need every single high tech toy be useful or even see use.
Your idea of min/maxing to get the cool stuff and to soak the criticals suggest that your style is one of having to have the best no matter what and that is not how a lot of us play, while that may work for you and your group it doesn't work for the rest of us and as Ghostrider has said you keep stating these things as if it's the only way to play or build thing when in fact it is not.
Again if you can do better, post your designs, other wise except the fact that the mech we are talking about doesn't need DHS and move on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/03/14 08:53 PM
67.239.109.174
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And apparently what we have here is a mech that has top-of-the-line endo-steel, FF, XLEs, and a streak weapon systems. Clearly your "you use what you have" argument has little substance in this mech at least.
I'm not saying it's not useful, I'm saying it could easily be more useful with a tiny modification that would take minimal effort.
Survivability is a good proportion of my design strategy. Hence many of my tanks have armored chassis to protect against TACs partially, and the high armor of many of my vehicles in general(and the use of specialty armor.) Ghostrider has not said anything along the lines of what you claim, he has only, apparently, claimed that my use of DHS as a crit sink could be considered a munchkin tactic.
There's a difference between not min-maxing and foolhardily giving the mech a potential crippling flaw.
It's not worth my while to post the exact same thing with a simple addition of 2 DHS in the torsos. Such a modification is hardly worth a footnote it's so simple to do.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 09:54 PM
66.27.181.33
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with the old mechs in battle tech, how did you ever use them? so many of them overheat when using weapons according to range.
Retry is using the items in the game in a way that takes the spirit of the game and tosses it.
It is not his fault that the developers forgot a cardinal rule of games. If it can be exploited, some one will. I have seen this in other game. It will happen anytime they put in idea, just to come up with something new.
Everything should have a weakness. If not, then the game losses it's challenge.
I do think you take survivability a little to far. But if you are playing with limited funds, I can see the urge to bring everything back alive.
Anti dropship towers would be the best way to start. Then mine all potential drop zones as well as have them pretargetted with artillery. Then place all potential targets underground and make sure you can defend the openings.
But even that is too much to have fun with..
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Karagin
03/03/14 10:13 PM
70.118.139.48
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Or have some kind of contact mines around known jump points along with space stations breaming with Anti ship weapons and fighters...
The point is Retry wants to win, got that, he exploits things to win, got that part too. What I like is to win as well, who doesn't, what I hate is winning just to win. I enjoy a challenge, if a player is better then I, I learn how to get better and I try again at winning against them, if not I keep trying. Thus the game is enjoyable. If I do win then hey maybe next time I won't, not the end of the world. Having fun is.
Lots of ways to win by min/maxing, not so much when you have mechs that aren't top of the line, have flaws, overheat, run out of ammo etc...but wait that is the challenge part, the part where you have to think, can I do A or B and if I do will I be able to pull of C and D?
I guess in the day and age of computer games where someone can hack them so as to win all the time they fail to learn that there is more to things then winning.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 10:25 PM
66.27.181.33
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I have had lots of issues with luck and dice. I have taken down a friends mech that his normal group could not hit one internal without striping all the armor off. I did it with an lrm 5 that found a weak point in his armor. Took out the gyro.
I have had a roll of 2 using masc and took down the mech when the legs lock. It happens.
I have yet to see where luck doesn't play a roll in winning or losing. A simple head shot is enough to end a mechs life. Not a single thing you can do to stop it.
As it was said in the movie wargames.
The only winning move is not to play.
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Retry
03/03/14 10:53 PM
67.239.109.174
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The old mechs have no choice but to use SHS. And that's fine. I can still use the MAD-3R reasonably effectively with a chain firing 2-1-2 strategy with my PPCs firing though I prefer to reserve those for icy planets or in a water hex where I get a bonus in heat dispersion. I would definitely not use them in a planet with desert conditions.
I REALLY like the MAD-3L though, the one with one LL and a PPC and extra heat sinks.
This one does have a choice. And it makes the wrong one.
HAVE you actually used the items as I suggested on the mech in a battle, played it or against it and thought "damn, these freaking DHS are ruining this game!"
IF not, stop claiming that the addition of a mere DHS would ruin the game.
The 20 tonner will still have the weakness of being made out of paper. You won't fix that one with DHS but it can be partly patched with the DHS crit sink.
One game I made a TAC early on a mech, hitting it's engines. It had only 10 heat sinks. By then we knew the result and mutually agreed to call it quits early.
Otherwise that mech ran cool. I can argue the combination of lack of DHS(though the mech was a 3025 something one so it couldn't have them anyways) and the lucky/unlucky hit ruined that game pretty early, and it wouldn't be any less valid than your claim that using the DHS would ruin the game. Except that the above situation isn't theoretical and actually happened.
I'll answer karagin later.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:04 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
Or have some kind of contact mines around known jump points along with space stations breaming with Anti ship weapons and fighters...
The point is Retry wants to win, got that, he exploits things to win, got that part too. What I like is to win as well, who doesn't, what I hate is winning just to win. I enjoy a challenge, if a player is better then I, I learn how to get better and I try again at winning against them, if not I keep trying. Thus the game is enjoyable. If I do win then hey maybe next time I won't, not the end of the world. Having fun is.
Lots of ways to win by min/maxing, not so much when you have mechs that aren't top of the line, have flaws, overheat, run out of ammo etc...but wait that is the challenge part, the part where you have to think, can I do A or B and if I do will I be able to pull of C and D?
I guess in the day and age of computer games where someone can hack them so as to win all the time they fail to learn that there is more to things then winning.
I'd like to see your degree in psychology. Seeing as you're quite confident in your evaluations of me.
None of this post even pertains to the damn Fireball, just your philosophy of Battletech.
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Karagin
03/03/14 11:06 PM
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No it didn't make the wrong choice Retry, not to me, I upgraded what I felt needed to be upgraded, you feel you have better ideas on how to do things, then please show us your designs or how you would upgrade things better then the rest of us can.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/03/14 11:08 PM
70.118.139.48
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It does pertain to the mech since you keep harping that you know best that it needs at all cost DHS cause it needs them to be sponges for critical hits, when in fact the mech works very well without them. So if you don't like an overview of how you come across then I am sorry, and I know how I come across, as an over bearing ****.
You keep telling us we are wrong because we are not following your design theory, yet you won't post something that shows how we are wrong, why is that?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:12 PM
67.239.109.174
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I'm not cluttering the forum with a design that has the sole addition of DHS. It's a simple swap that you won't... shouldn't need an entire outline to see.
I never said the mech couldn't function without them.
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Karagin
03/03/14 11:14 PM
70.118.139.48
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And again it doesn't need them, which is the point of it can function without them thus it doesn't need them. Thank you for seeing that finally. Now we can move on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:17 PM
67.239.109.174
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It doesn't need it's medium laser. It can function without it thus it doesn't need them. Thus shall we take that weapon system away as well?
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Karagin
03/03/14 11:21 PM
70.118.139.48
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Hey good idea! I can arm it with all Smalls! I like that idea, cuts down on the cost as well! Good Job Retry! Thanks for the variant!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 11:22 PM
66.27.181.33
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dhs aren't ruining the game. The use of them just to have something else that can soak up a crit to avoid other problems is seen as one.
I love dhs on mechs. Allows me to fire more often then with shs. The issue comes from when they are needed.
Now dhs was availible earlier then 3055.I believe they were used in the black widow company scenario pack. The light horse used them against the black widows. Damn, have to find where I put the other books.
How about you stop using clan tech and remember innersphere tech.
endosteel using 14 crits. Ferrous fiber 14 crits. dhs using 3 crits.
Can't put dhs in the legs. No room. A fully functioning arm, can only handle 2 dhs.
Yeah the mech could handle it with the crits.
Also not every company has the designs for dhs, or other weapons as well.
I think the having access to everything under the sun had made you forget some of the problems innersphere units deal with.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 11:25 PM
66.27.181.33
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the sinks in the legs means this unit would not be able to doubles at all.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:31 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
DHS will allow this Fireball to operate comfortably in very hot environments and still function with 2 engine crits. With 2 engine crits you generate 10 heat just by standing still. Which will be a problem, or so the pilot frying would be led to believe.
On top of that 2 DHS in the left and right torsos would make a great crit sink that could prevent a crit to the engine in the first place.
Well done forgetting this very early comment in order to push your claim that I claimed I said to use the DHS solely to crit sink.
And I'm designing a MAD variant right now. IS tech. Hardly "forgetting IS tech".
"not every company has the designs for dhs, or other weapons as well."
Yes. Neither can every company aquire mechs with endo-steel, ferro-fibrous, and XL engines.
Much less on the same chassis.
Yet you add DHS on that endo+ferro+XL mech and that becomes too much? It's not like it's the DHS that needs to be made in an orbital factory. Does one not see the hypocrisy here?
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ghostrider
03/03/14 11:48 PM
66.27.181.33
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I agree with the endo and xl and ferrous. The biggest problem I can see with all the upgrades using them is the lack of facilities to produce the required units.
And it is nice to be able to pick units for each mission seperately. on a hot world a locust would be a great mech to have. The standard 3025 one that has a single laser and movement to heat it up.
Most people are stuck with the mechs they use for other missions.
And with innersphere xl engines, losing a side torso means the mech is dead, since it has 3 spots in each torso.
Now if heat is a problem, pull some of the weapons out of a unit, or don't use them. Its that simple. Take your cold mech without all the extra experimental crap and play the game. It will probably die because they lack weapons to fire. Stayed cool the entire time, but 3 lasers against 4 plus missile with the same move and armor because you might run into a hot planet.
Now if you are involving your campaign into the mainstream logic again, then living on a hot planet will cause your designs to be cold running.
If the crits are that bad, run the game where there are no crits. You fight until you deplete all the center torso internal structure.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:59 PM
67.239.109.174
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Great. Then wouldn't it be convenient for an insignificant cost in C-Bills if the default model could incorporate DHS to deal with such environments in case they were the only mechs they could bring to do the job?
(Oh wait, I guess the company is too cheap for that because it "doesn't need it". Poor mechwarriors.)
A torso can be critted by a TAC or a hit to the internals, the engine can be hit without losing a torso, in which case the mechwarrior will thank that you have a DHS that took the hit instead of the engine, or that the DHS can take care of the engine's heat if it's been hit.
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Karagin
03/04/14 12:07 AM
70.118.139.48
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TAC? Is that a new weapon?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/04/14 12:18 AM
66.27.181.33
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Then you would not buy mechs at all because a single hit could very well hit the internal structure and completely wipe out the engine or gyro.
I wondered what a TAC was myself, but not having the new super mech items, I thought it was just something new.
Now the argument of using dhs on this mech is irrelevant unless you want to redesign it. The only sinks not covered by the engine are in the legs. NO ROOM FOR the triple crit dhs in this particular mech design.
Plus the manufacturers don't care about the warrior. They want to sell mechs. It is up to the pilot to use it efficiently.
I believe the scenario pact black widows the deal with a hot world. I am not sure, but I think there is one in mckinons raiders as well.
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Retry
03/04/14 12:22 AM
72.214.204.166
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Through Armor Criticals.
I know I saw posts here before using that term first.
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ghostrider
03/04/14 12:26 AM
66.27.181.33
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snake eyes on the to hit locations. The bane to many of us. Full armor and no gyro. These are worse then head hits at times.
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Karagin
03/04/14 12:28 AM
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Nope first time seeing that combo.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/04/14 12:30 AM
70.118.139.48
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Point here is things happen, if you are using a mech, you need to know how to use it, cause unlike your home made faction, the average warrior doesn't get to pick his mech.
Balance is key Retry, again the mech has no need for DHS since the heat out put isn't warranting it. Sure it could use DHS, but why waste them on this mech when they could on something else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/04/14 12:31 AM
66.27.181.33
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you have never had a roll of a 2 on a die roll to find where you hit?
That is a possible torso critical.
Or are you talking about the term of TAC?
I mean there are times that you don't read past the first line.. :P
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Retry
03/04/14 12:37 AM
72.214.204.166
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Why lose a mech due to *already listed possibilities* because you are too cheap to DHS it?
That is my 2... Million.
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