Karagin
03/02/14 05:03 PM
70.118.139.48
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Code: BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Fireball ALM-39D
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3055
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 20 tons
Chassis: Corean Model 334AA Endo Steel
Power Plant: 220 DAV XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 118.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 183.6 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Durallex Nova Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 Medium Laser
1 Small Laser
1 Streak SRM 2
Manufacturer: Corean Enterprises
Location: New Avalon
Communications System: Lynx-Shur
Targeting & Tracking System: Corean B-Tech
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Fireball ALM-39D
Mass: 20 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 33 pts Endo Steel 14 1.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 LA, 1 RA, 4 LT, 4 RT, 2 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Engine: 220 XL Fusion 12 5.00
Walking MP: 11
Running MP: 17
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 2 .00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LL, 1 RL)
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 69 pts Ferro-Fibrous 14 4.00
(Armor Crit Loc: 1 HD, 4 LA, 3 RA, 3 LT, 3 RT)
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 6 8
Center Torso (Rear): 4
L/R Side Torso: 5 7/7
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 3/3
L/R Arm: 3 6/6
L/R Leg: 4 8/8
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
1 Small Laser RT 1 1 .50
1 Streak SRM 2 LT 2 50 2 2.50
(Ammo Locations: 1 LT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 6 71 20.00
Crits & Tons Left: 7 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 3,190,540 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 550 (old BV = 457)
Cost per BV2: 5,800.98
Weapon Value: 164 / 149 (Ratio = .30 / .27)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 8; MRDmg = 1; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 11, Armor/Structure: 2/1
Damage PB/M/L: 2/1/-, Overheat: 0
Class: ML; Point Value: 6
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 05:06 PM
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Let's see... you have an XL engine and SHSs in use in tandem.
Seems like a large waste of resources.
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Karagin
03/02/14 05:11 PM
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I don't have anything, this is a STANDARD BOOK MECH, modified by me. The heat build up doesn't warrant DHS, so yes it has has SHS, not everything needs DHS so really NO its' not a large waste of resources, again it's not about min/maxing things here Retry. Not all of us play that way or want to be in games like that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 05:17 PM
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Then it's not a standard book mech if it's modified, now is it.
You say that until you meet a circumstance that doesn't take place inside a vacuum. Including but not limited to:
Really hot environments
Inferno SRM hits
Engine crits. While with DHS you could still fall back or keep fighting with the design if you are unlucky enough to get hit twice. But with these standard 10 SHS instead you will slowly roast your pilot until he either shuts down his mech or fries to death.
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Karagin
03/02/14 05:25 PM
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Rare events with the infernos, as for engine hits they are going to ruin the day for a mech with DHS so that is not a point to even worry about.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/02/14 05:26 PM
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If you can build one better Retry then post your ideas.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 05:33 PM
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Except instead of engine hits being a death sentence with SHS only it becomes a thorn in your side which you can simply trot back to base to repair it.
DHS. Problems solved.
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Karagin
03/02/14 05:41 PM
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The mech does not need DHS, there never was an issue with it's heat to start with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 05:45 PM
67.239.109.174
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DHS will allow this Fireball to operate comfortably in very hot environments and still function with 2 engine crits. With 2 engine crits you generate 10 heat just by standing still. Which will be a problem, or so the pilot frying would be led to believe.
On top of that 2 DHS in the left and right torsos would make a great crit sink that could prevent a crit to the engine in the first place.
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Karagin
03/02/14 06:12 PM
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Again IF you can do better, then post your version.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 06:18 PM
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I'm not posting a version that the only change is DHS.
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Karagin
03/02/14 06:21 PM
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You seem to think all mechs should have every single thing on them at the highest tech level, why is this? Even if they don't need the items, you design style is not logical so could you please fill us in why you think it's okay to drive up the cost just because you want the highest tech available when the normal tech items do the job without going overboard.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/02/14 06:24 PM
70.118.139.48
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All you offered for comments is it needs (even though it doesn't) DHS. I don't see the need for DHS both from a cost position or from a need for the mech's current heat output. Oversinking a mech for just in case events is both pointless and a waste of resources.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 06:37 PM
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You don't seem to see my arguements for it at all either. A bit of a case of logical nearsightedness, it would appear.
Same with your claim of "just in case" events being a waste of resources. It's nearsighted.
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Karagin
03/02/14 06:39 PM
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Again I was not going for min/max building like you are suggesting. If you look at the changes I have made, I am not going crazy with the tech, simple easy upgrades not shovel everything you can into just because you can attitude.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 06:40 PM
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If I recall, they supposedly set the internal runnings of a mech to match extreme temperatures for planets they will be on, ie fire less often on a hot world. I am not sure if that was fluff in one of the books or in a novel.
But it would make sense.
Granted it would bring down the costs of dhs if they were used on everything they could, but give the price of them as well as a lack of need in the normal range of combat, it is not necesary. If you want them, then order the mech with them.
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Retry
03/02/14 06:41 PM
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Assuming DHS wouldn't be a simple easy upgrade.
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Karagin
03/02/14 06:49 PM
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You make it sounds as if they are.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 06:52 PM
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Seeing as this is no omnimech, the weapon swap couldn't be quite so easy to do either as well.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 06:56 PM
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even with omnis, you can't swap dhs for shs or the other way around. But you control your playing models, so if you want dhs, use dhs.
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Retry
03/02/14 07:46 PM
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A waste of resources would be using this mech without the DHS as at least a crit sink. It'd be a pointless and nonsensical way to lose your mech all tricked out with all these advanced engines and endo-steel which needs to be made in an orbital factory. And the pilot is a bonus.
But apparently my Nephilidae, whose production uses equipment that almost no other mechs use and so would not detract production in other areas, is an even bigger waste.
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Karagin
03/02/14 07:49 PM
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You have a different design outlook then many of us, so to you it dose seem that way to, but to many of us it does not.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 07:53 PM
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Thus far "to many of us" has been you and only you.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 07:58 PM
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Any production detracts from other areas.
Though if you are so worried about losing units, a complete orbital defense with fighters and assault dropships with warship support would be a better way to go. If they can't reach the factories, they can't destroy them.
Now the mech produces 8 heat firing everything and running.
Why do you need double heat sinks?
The possible engine hits and hot planets are a possible. Without those problems, this is a cold mech.
If you are concerned about overheating then you will never use a normal marauder, since just using the ppcs overheats it. Same with the normal warhammer.
If you start running hot, you just stop firing everthing you got.
And the small laser wouldn't be firing every round. Same with the streaks.
as for crit sinks.. That is just getting rediculous. Just add in an mg in as many spots as you can without any ammo for it.
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Cray
03/02/14 08:03 PM
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Quote:
The heat build up doesn't warrant DHS, so yes it has has SHS, not everything needs DHS so really NO its' not a large waste of resources
I agree. Not everything subsystem merits the latest cutting edge. It's the story of my current job, which is designing gee-whiz exploding stealthy things to be hung under the wings of US airplanes. (This is so much better than watching steel panels corrode in salt fog chambers, like my last job.) There are times where you need the latest and greatest materials and systems, and you use them. You use them with reservation, and worry, and lengthy justifications for trying out new technology.
In any other time, you avoid the new stuff like the plague. The running joke is that no one realizes there's a materials department because all the mechanical and aerospace engineers only specify 6061-T6 aluminum on the blueprints, just like their grandparents did. (Getting a new material to be acceptable for aircraft construction a simple application usually requires several million dollars of testing.)
Single strength heat sinks are common, proven, well-known, available, and much more numerous than DHS (you don't see DHS on combat vehicles). When the situation doesn't call for a fancy system, you don't use it. This Fireball variant can only generate 6 heat from its weapons, leaving it 4 reserve heat capacity for movement, engine damage, and external heat. .
I'd argue differently on a heavy or assault 'Mech, but by the time this Fireball needs that heat capacity, it'll probably be dead since it's so fragile.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 08:07 PM
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you don't see double sinks on vehicles because they are not allow. That was pointed out to me when I had forgot this point.
The wasting of resources, is why you don't use xl engines, but yet you will throw double heat sinks on everything you can. This is one of the reasons I asked about the tech in your crossroads units. You are trying to use the best of both.
Either you use innersphere tech or clan tech.
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Retry
03/02/14 08:08 PM
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A new mech going into production that uses a specific engine or chassis will detract much more so into the production of another mech that uses such equipment than a mech that uses completely different equipment.
I believe it is why the P-38 Lightning kept the Allisons, as it was difficult enough to keep the P-51 Merlins in stock.
And with those problems, which in this case you could adress very very very easily, it is a pilot sauna. The basic marauder is okayish, but it seems specialized for cold climates and would especially suck on hot planets.
Crit sinks is not a ridiculous concept. One lost DHS is a lot better than a lost engine due to battle damage.
(Though now that I think about it that could fit on the chassis)
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KamikazeJohnson
03/02/14 08:09 PM
50.72.218.68
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I'm usually in favour of using DHS whenever possible, although I have made a few Light designs that ran short of crit space. The price difference is small, there's no trade-off as long as space is available, and there's tremendous value in the event of engine hits. That said, not using them when the 'Mech generates less than 10 heat under normal conditions makes in-universe sense, particularly if the unit is set as Star League-Era or in the early days of recovered Star League tech, where DHS are not an item had in abundance. By 3070 or so, there's really no reason other than crit space not to use them.
I would probably have put them on this design "just because", but they're certainly not essential.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
03/02/14 08:16 PM
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so then all your mechs are omni mechs? the use of pods use the same weapons on everything.
Now kj. the year of this mech is 3055. If it was past 3070, I would agree with the thought, but still say if it doesn't need them, why use them?
Also, you must remember, the innersphere uses their parts on mechs built in there area. A medium laser might have a five bolt bracket in the fedsuns area, but only use 3 hole bracket in the combine. Yes the mech is fedcom, but even with that, they would use what is availible to the area.
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Retry
03/02/14 08:18 PM
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Quote:
The wasting of resources, is why you don't use xl engines, but yet you will throw double heat sinks on everything you can. This is one of the reasons I asked about the tech in your crossroads units. You are trying to use the best of both.
Either you use innersphere tech or clan tech.
The arguement would work if this faction was of classic canon battletech. But it's not.
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Cray
03/02/14 08:21 PM
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Quote:
you don't see double sinks on vehicles because they are not allow. That was pointed out to me when I had forgot this point.
Right, but if your 'Mechs use SHS, then they can salvage replacement SHS from vehicles. 'Mechs using DHS can't salvage heat sinks from vehicles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Retry
03/02/14 08:21 PM
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If you lose this Fireball because you didn't have the DHS to crit sink the shot that just happens to hit your engine, the salvage point is moot.
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Karagin
03/02/14 08:22 PM
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Right so toss out logic, makes the game so much better.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 08:22 PM
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Can't tell if sarcasm or...
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ghostrider
03/02/14 08:29 PM
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Did the new updates say that clan tech is easily available to all?
Did the change it so innersphere tech is easily available to the clans?
Or is the stuff still available to just certain political entities?
I am sure the arc royal defense cordon (if it still exists) doesn't swap the tech, and they have both sides of that argument in them.
I was going to get extreme with an example of using 100's of warships, but that would be going in the wrong direction with this.
It is your game. I know there are some ideas I like about it, and some that just go to far for alot of people here.
Next suggestion would be bring out the robotech rules, where you can fire a 50to75 damage particle beam cannon 4 times in 15 seconds. That should take care of defense.
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Retry
03/02/14 08:32 PM
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Clan tech is still limited to the clans, but as I tried to say the tech isn't made in the clans and shipped to the planet, it is made at the planet itself that has quality like clanmade weapons.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 08:44 PM
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Having the tech to build both sides items is the issue alot of people have with the crossroads idea.
Research vs the amount of people in it is the problem here. There is no way, short of stealing or buying the tech, that you could have a single system do all the research needed.
I tried to keep this in the general thread, but I guess that was a fail.
It is like saying sri lanka was able to build stealth fighters before the U.S could.
Or that monaco could.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/02/14 08:56 PM
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I've tried to stay out of the Crossroads discussion, but it's starting to get tiring...
Personally I don't have a problem with it...a non-canon faction that has access to the best toys from all the factions. Sure, the backstory may not quite be plausible in the canon BT universe, but if Retry has fun building and fielding these units with his group, I don't see why anyone else really cares.
No one complains about a Mechwarrior character who manages to get rich enough to buy the Free Worlds League, so why is Crossroads such a big issue?
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/02/14 08:58 PM
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Wait? A character got rich enough to buy the FWL? Wow...I have never seen that happen, need to talk to Jon about how he hands out rewards...wow.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 09:04 PM
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Of course it's not plausible because it never happened.
And why has this been brought up for no reason?
(And it's more like comparing it to a wealthy city-state to, perhaps, I don't know, the medieval Russia area? It may be rich with land, but it would be quite empty for all the land it possesses.)
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ghostrider
03/02/14 09:06 PM
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I think the issue here is mixing both technologies to get the best of both worlds without any drawbacks.
I personally think it should not be allowed, but it is your gaming group.
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Retry
03/02/14 09:10 PM
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You gave the explanation of the drawback perfectly when you said the following:
"All the clans would have lined up fighting trials of possession or grievence to get at the lowly freebirths."
Back on topic please?
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Karagin
03/02/14 09:16 PM
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Good point Ghostrider the all good with none of the bad, that does tend to sour folks on things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 09:17 PM
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Forget nearsighted, you apparently are completely to oblivious to anything that anyone says that even starts to suggests otherwise to what you believe.
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Karagin
03/02/14 09:24 PM
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I am sorry Retry, to what are you talking about? I see quite well in fact, I have 20/10 in each eye.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 09:28 PM
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No one complains about a Mechwarrior character who manages to get rich enough to buy the Free Worlds League, so why is Crossroads such a big issue?
I take it that was a rhetorical question then? 
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KamikazeJohnson
03/02/14 09:40 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
No one complains about a Mechwarrior character who manages to get rich enough to buy the Free Worlds League, so why is Crossroads such a big issue?
I take it that was a rhetorical question then?
It was a bit of an exaggeration, but my point was that players build characters and Merc units etc. that can end up completely out of place in BT canon, and no one really has a problem with that occurrence, when it would be about as likely to happen as Retry's Crossroads back story.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
03/02/14 09:48 PM
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One of the people had a problem with his game. His players had everything maxed out and he couldn't challenge them. They stripped the entire field of everything that was there. By the time he started a new game, they were extremely rich.
Still alot of this is coming from a few points that several people have a hard stance on.
This thread started with the argument of having double heat sinks on a mech that doesn't need them. Then it blew out of the subject and worsened.
I would think it will in each thread. Hopefully not.
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Retry
03/02/14 09:54 PM
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The forces will consist of a mix of star-league level stuff from territories of the periphery nation and the supposed "ubermin-maxed stuff". More of the former.
Anyways, DHS.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 10:00 PM
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The mech was originally designed to kill elementals. I think it had an mg on it.
And tastes great.. no.. less filling.
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Retry
03/02/14 10:00 PM
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Elementals? MGs aren't that great on BA at all.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 10:01 PM
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They didn't know that when they first were dealing with them. I believe the mg was to knock them off friendly mechs without hurting the mechs.
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Karagin
03/02/14 10:01 PM
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At the time Retry, the IS didn't have SPLs etc...all that available, so they went with what they had. Thus many mechs had numerous MGs to deal with BA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/02/14 10:02 PM
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The poor fools!
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ghostrider
03/02/14 10:05 PM
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The original only had the streak and the mg.. it didn't even have the lasers..
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ghostrider
03/02/14 10:13 PM
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just noticed Karagin upgrading 3055 mechs in 3055..
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Karagin
03/02/14 10:24 PM
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Okay and none of the upgrades are beyond anything they had at the time...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/03/14 06:23 PM
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Quote:
If you lose this Fireball because you didn't have the DHS to crit sink the shot that just happens to hit your engine, the salvage point is moot.
I wouldn't worry much about crit-sinking on a 20-ton 'Mech. It doesn't have enough internal structure points to get to the point where lots of crits get rolled. I mean, I've seen a badly critted 20-tonner but I've seen a lot more evaporate before crit rolling mattered.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Retry
03/03/14 06:29 PM
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It occurs often enough that DHS won't hurt.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 07:33 PM
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One point of engine damage will not take the mech out.
Losing the torso would, but that would cause alot of other problems as well.
With crays example, most the time you get alot of crits on a 20 tonner is when you are using mgs or srm 2 packs. Most other weapons kill the location and are done with it.
The argument of using dhs to soak up crits is one that most people will think it's a very horrible excuse. If the mech overheats badly, then yes dhs is a good argument.
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Karagin
03/03/14 07:48 PM
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This one doesn't need DHS. SO the point is mute on using them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/03/14 07:58 PM
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2 hits to the engine with the 10 SHS will overwhelm the mech's 10 heat sinks actually, it'd be as good as taken out.
I don't see how lining tanks with side MGs to crit soak is okay but using DHS to do the same is not.
Karagin, It doesn't need anything. That doesn't give an excuse to strip out most of the weapons like the small laser or the armor just because it doesn't need it.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 08:27 PM
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First tanks can not use dhs.
You can always line mechs with mgs to soak up crits. Mg's in tanks are used to fight infantry that are more likely to attack an tank at close range, because a tank can not step on them like a mech can.
But if that is why you think tanks mount mgs, then that is your choice.
The use of double heat sinks to soak up damage is thumbing your nose at the enemy.
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Retry
03/03/14 08:41 PM
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First, your first point is irrelevant, I'm not talking about tanks with DHS.
Secondly, why spend tonnage to fit more MGs just to crit soak when you can use a DHS more efficiently for no cost in tonnage in DHS whatsoever, for many benefits for scenarios that can easily happen for an insignificant increase in CBills.
As I said, using spare DHS to crit soak is no different than using any other thing to crit soak.
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Karagin
03/03/14 08:42 PM
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Upgrading things mean things change, you work with what you have again, this one wasn't of the idea to cram all the high tech into. I am not sure why you can't see that Retry, that a mech doesn't need every single high tech toy be useful or even see use.
Your idea of min/maxing to get the cool stuff and to soak the criticals suggest that your style is one of having to have the best no matter what and that is not how a lot of us play, while that may work for you and your group it doesn't work for the rest of us and as Ghostrider has said you keep stating these things as if it's the only way to play or build thing when in fact it is not.
Again if you can do better, post your designs, other wise except the fact that the mech we are talking about doesn't need DHS and move on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/03/14 08:53 PM
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And apparently what we have here is a mech that has top-of-the-line endo-steel, FF, XLEs, and a streak weapon systems. Clearly your "you use what you have" argument has little substance in this mech at least.
I'm not saying it's not useful, I'm saying it could easily be more useful with a tiny modification that would take minimal effort.
Survivability is a good proportion of my design strategy. Hence many of my tanks have armored chassis to protect against TACs partially, and the high armor of many of my vehicles in general(and the use of specialty armor.) Ghostrider has not said anything along the lines of what you claim, he has only, apparently, claimed that my use of DHS as a crit sink could be considered a munchkin tactic.
There's a difference between not min-maxing and foolhardily giving the mech a potential crippling flaw.
It's not worth my while to post the exact same thing with a simple addition of 2 DHS in the torsos. Such a modification is hardly worth a footnote it's so simple to do.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 09:54 PM
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with the old mechs in battle tech, how did you ever use them? so many of them overheat when using weapons according to range.
Retry is using the items in the game in a way that takes the spirit of the game and tosses it.
It is not his fault that the developers forgot a cardinal rule of games. If it can be exploited, some one will. I have seen this in other game. It will happen anytime they put in idea, just to come up with something new.
Everything should have a weakness. If not, then the game losses it's challenge.
I do think you take survivability a little to far. But if you are playing with limited funds, I can see the urge to bring everything back alive.
Anti dropship towers would be the best way to start. Then mine all potential drop zones as well as have them pretargetted with artillery. Then place all potential targets underground and make sure you can defend the openings.
But even that is too much to have fun with..
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Karagin
03/03/14 10:13 PM
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Or have some kind of contact mines around known jump points along with space stations breaming with Anti ship weapons and fighters...
The point is Retry wants to win, got that, he exploits things to win, got that part too. What I like is to win as well, who doesn't, what I hate is winning just to win. I enjoy a challenge, if a player is better then I, I learn how to get better and I try again at winning against them, if not I keep trying. Thus the game is enjoyable. If I do win then hey maybe next time I won't, not the end of the world. Having fun is.
Lots of ways to win by min/maxing, not so much when you have mechs that aren't top of the line, have flaws, overheat, run out of ammo etc...but wait that is the challenge part, the part where you have to think, can I do A or B and if I do will I be able to pull of C and D?
I guess in the day and age of computer games where someone can hack them so as to win all the time they fail to learn that there is more to things then winning.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 10:25 PM
66.27.181.33
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I have had lots of issues with luck and dice. I have taken down a friends mech that his normal group could not hit one internal without striping all the armor off. I did it with an lrm 5 that found a weak point in his armor. Took out the gyro.
I have had a roll of 2 using masc and took down the mech when the legs lock. It happens.
I have yet to see where luck doesn't play a roll in winning or losing. A simple head shot is enough to end a mechs life. Not a single thing you can do to stop it.
As it was said in the movie wargames.
The only winning move is not to play.
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Retry
03/03/14 10:53 PM
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The old mechs have no choice but to use SHS. And that's fine. I can still use the MAD-3R reasonably effectively with a chain firing 2-1-2 strategy with my PPCs firing though I prefer to reserve those for icy planets or in a water hex where I get a bonus in heat dispersion. I would definitely not use them in a planet with desert conditions.
I REALLY like the MAD-3L though, the one with one LL and a PPC and extra heat sinks.
This one does have a choice. And it makes the wrong one.
HAVE you actually used the items as I suggested on the mech in a battle, played it or against it and thought "damn, these freaking DHS are ruining this game!"
IF not, stop claiming that the addition of a mere DHS would ruin the game.
The 20 tonner will still have the weakness of being made out of paper. You won't fix that one with DHS but it can be partly patched with the DHS crit sink.
One game I made a TAC early on a mech, hitting it's engines. It had only 10 heat sinks. By then we knew the result and mutually agreed to call it quits early.
Otherwise that mech ran cool. I can argue the combination of lack of DHS(though the mech was a 3025 something one so it couldn't have them anyways) and the lucky/unlucky hit ruined that game pretty early, and it wouldn't be any less valid than your claim that using the DHS would ruin the game. Except that the above situation isn't theoretical and actually happened.
I'll answer karagin later.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Or have some kind of contact mines around known jump points along with space stations breaming with Anti ship weapons and fighters...
The point is Retry wants to win, got that, he exploits things to win, got that part too. What I like is to win as well, who doesn't, what I hate is winning just to win. I enjoy a challenge, if a player is better then I, I learn how to get better and I try again at winning against them, if not I keep trying. Thus the game is enjoyable. If I do win then hey maybe next time I won't, not the end of the world. Having fun is.
Lots of ways to win by min/maxing, not so much when you have mechs that aren't top of the line, have flaws, overheat, run out of ammo etc...but wait that is the challenge part, the part where you have to think, can I do A or B and if I do will I be able to pull of C and D?
I guess in the day and age of computer games where someone can hack them so as to win all the time they fail to learn that there is more to things then winning.
I'd like to see your degree in psychology. Seeing as you're quite confident in your evaluations of me.
None of this post even pertains to the damn Fireball, just your philosophy of Battletech.
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Karagin
03/03/14 11:06 PM
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No it didn't make the wrong choice Retry, not to me, I upgraded what I felt needed to be upgraded, you feel you have better ideas on how to do things, then please show us your designs or how you would upgrade things better then the rest of us can.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/03/14 11:08 PM
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It does pertain to the mech since you keep harping that you know best that it needs at all cost DHS cause it needs them to be sponges for critical hits, when in fact the mech works very well without them. So if you don't like an overview of how you come across then I am sorry, and I know how I come across, as an over bearing ****.
You keep telling us we are wrong because we are not following your design theory, yet you won't post something that shows how we are wrong, why is that?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:12 PM
67.239.109.174
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I'm not cluttering the forum with a design that has the sole addition of DHS. It's a simple swap that you won't... shouldn't need an entire outline to see.
I never said the mech couldn't function without them.
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Karagin
03/03/14 11:14 PM
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And again it doesn't need them, which is the point of it can function without them thus it doesn't need them. Thank you for seeing that finally. Now we can move on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:17 PM
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It doesn't need it's medium laser. It can function without it thus it doesn't need them. Thus shall we take that weapon system away as well?
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Karagin
03/03/14 11:21 PM
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Hey good idea! I can arm it with all Smalls! I like that idea, cuts down on the cost as well! Good Job Retry! Thanks for the variant!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 11:22 PM
66.27.181.33
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dhs aren't ruining the game. The use of them just to have something else that can soak up a crit to avoid other problems is seen as one.
I love dhs on mechs. Allows me to fire more often then with shs. The issue comes from when they are needed.
Now dhs was availible earlier then 3055.I believe they were used in the black widow company scenario pack. The light horse used them against the black widows. Damn, have to find where I put the other books.
How about you stop using clan tech and remember innersphere tech.
endosteel using 14 crits. Ferrous fiber 14 crits. dhs using 3 crits.
Can't put dhs in the legs. No room. A fully functioning arm, can only handle 2 dhs.
Yeah the mech could handle it with the crits.
Also not every company has the designs for dhs, or other weapons as well.
I think the having access to everything under the sun had made you forget some of the problems innersphere units deal with.
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ghostrider
03/03/14 11:25 PM
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the sinks in the legs means this unit would not be able to doubles at all.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:31 PM
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Quote:
DHS will allow this Fireball to operate comfortably in very hot environments and still function with 2 engine crits. With 2 engine crits you generate 10 heat just by standing still. Which will be a problem, or so the pilot frying would be led to believe.
On top of that 2 DHS in the left and right torsos would make a great crit sink that could prevent a crit to the engine in the first place.
Well done forgetting this very early comment in order to push your claim that I claimed I said to use the DHS solely to crit sink.
And I'm designing a MAD variant right now. IS tech. Hardly "forgetting IS tech".
"not every company has the designs for dhs, or other weapons as well."
Yes. Neither can every company aquire mechs with endo-steel, ferro-fibrous, and XL engines.
Much less on the same chassis.
Yet you add DHS on that endo+ferro+XL mech and that becomes too much? It's not like it's the DHS that needs to be made in an orbital factory. Does one not see the hypocrisy here?
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ghostrider
03/03/14 11:48 PM
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I agree with the endo and xl and ferrous. The biggest problem I can see with all the upgrades using them is the lack of facilities to produce the required units.
And it is nice to be able to pick units for each mission seperately. on a hot world a locust would be a great mech to have. The standard 3025 one that has a single laser and movement to heat it up.
Most people are stuck with the mechs they use for other missions.
And with innersphere xl engines, losing a side torso means the mech is dead, since it has 3 spots in each torso.
Now if heat is a problem, pull some of the weapons out of a unit, or don't use them. Its that simple. Take your cold mech without all the extra experimental crap and play the game. It will probably die because they lack weapons to fire. Stayed cool the entire time, but 3 lasers against 4 plus missile with the same move and armor because you might run into a hot planet.
Now if you are involving your campaign into the mainstream logic again, then living on a hot planet will cause your designs to be cold running.
If the crits are that bad, run the game where there are no crits. You fight until you deplete all the center torso internal structure.
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Retry
03/03/14 11:59 PM
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Great. Then wouldn't it be convenient for an insignificant cost in C-Bills if the default model could incorporate DHS to deal with such environments in case they were the only mechs they could bring to do the job?
(Oh wait, I guess the company is too cheap for that because it "doesn't need it". Poor mechwarriors.)
A torso can be critted by a TAC or a hit to the internals, the engine can be hit without losing a torso, in which case the mechwarrior will thank that you have a DHS that took the hit instead of the engine, or that the DHS can take care of the engine's heat if it's been hit.
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Karagin
03/04/14 12:07 AM
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TAC? Is that a new weapon?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/04/14 12:18 AM
66.27.181.33
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Then you would not buy mechs at all because a single hit could very well hit the internal structure and completely wipe out the engine or gyro.
I wondered what a TAC was myself, but not having the new super mech items, I thought it was just something new.
Now the argument of using dhs on this mech is irrelevant unless you want to redesign it. The only sinks not covered by the engine are in the legs. NO ROOM FOR the triple crit dhs in this particular mech design.
Plus the manufacturers don't care about the warrior. They want to sell mechs. It is up to the pilot to use it efficiently.
I believe the scenario pact black widows the deal with a hot world. I am not sure, but I think there is one in mckinons raiders as well.
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Retry
03/04/14 12:22 AM
72.214.204.166
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Through Armor Criticals.
I know I saw posts here before using that term first.
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ghostrider
03/04/14 12:26 AM
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snake eyes on the to hit locations. The bane to many of us. Full armor and no gyro. These are worse then head hits at times.
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Karagin
03/04/14 12:28 AM
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Nope first time seeing that combo.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/04/14 12:30 AM
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Point here is things happen, if you are using a mech, you need to know how to use it, cause unlike your home made faction, the average warrior doesn't get to pick his mech.
Balance is key Retry, again the mech has no need for DHS since the heat out put isn't warranting it. Sure it could use DHS, but why waste them on this mech when they could on something else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/04/14 12:31 AM
66.27.181.33
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you have never had a roll of a 2 on a die roll to find where you hit?
That is a possible torso critical.
Or are you talking about the term of TAC?
I mean there are times that you don't read past the first line.. :P
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Retry
03/04/14 12:37 AM
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Why lose a mech due to *already listed possibilities* because you are too cheap to DHS it?
That is my 2... Million.
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ghostrider
03/04/14 12:43 AM
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as it has been said before. if you don't like the version don't use it.
Or change it. Move some crits into the legs from the arms, and move the hs into the arms to change over to doubles. or the torso if you like.
Arguing about using dhs on a cool running mech is not the best way to go.
I think 2 pages have been because of this.
I know it keeps us busy reading, but after awhile people stop coming.
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Karagin
03/04/14 12:49 AM
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It doesn't need DHS, not for the heat, which is the MAIN reason to use. Okay so you end up on a desert world, you learn to control what you fire and you adjust your tactics. You take an engine, again adjust to it. If a design team planned for every possible situation then mechs would have never been built in the BT universe or they would be 300 ton 1/2 movement machines that cost trillions to build and are stuck on the world they are built.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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