Retry
03/08/14 12:11 PM
76.7.238.202
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This one was a simple one to upgrade. The AC10s were turned to LB 10-Xs, the SRM was downgraded, and I partially adressed it's lack of longer ranged firepower with an ERLL.
----
Zhukov Heavy Tank Fusion
IS TW non-box set
75 tons
BV: 1,175
Cost: 4,634,000 C-bills
Source: Succession Wars
Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 225
Internal: 40
Armor: 197 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
Front 8 50
Right 8 36
Left 8 36
Rear 8 24
Turret 8 51
Weapons Loc Heat
SRM 4 FR 3
LB 10-X AC TU 2
LB 10-X AC TU 2
ER Large Laser TU 12
Ammo Loc Shots
SRM 4 Ammo BD 25
LB 10-X AC Ammo BD 10
LB 10-X Cluster Ammo BD 10
Equipment Loc
CASE BD
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Karagin
03/08/14 07:51 PM
70.118.139.48
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Drop the ER and the wasted 2 tons that you (again) paid for in heat sinks and upgrade the SRM to either a SRM6 or a Streak 4 and some MGs or two SPLs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 07:54 PM
76.7.238.202
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That wouldn't do it much good.
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Karagin
03/08/14 07:57 PM
70.118.139.48
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It would 10 times better or good for it then ER Large Laser and the extra two heat sinks that you are paying for by losing two tons, of which the 7 tons can be put to better use then an ER Large Laser.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 08:02 PM
76.7.238.202
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Removing the laser reduces it's LR firepower by about a third. SRMs aren't exactly long ranged.
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:03 PM
70.118.139.48
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You could drop it down to a standard Large Laser and then use the extra two tons not spent on the heat sinks on AMS or something like that which could keep the vehicle alive longer.
Having the long range fire power isn't always the needed thing, some defensive firepower can be the difference between one more round of fighting.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 08:04 PM
76.7.238.202
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The ERLL range brackets makes the LL range brackets cry.
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:05 PM
70.118.139.48
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And your point? IT's not needed, the cost you pay for it one on a vehicle is not worth it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 08:09 PM
76.7.238.202
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7 tons for the very helpful weapon system.
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:11 PM
70.118.139.48
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It is a wasted 7 tons that doesn't give you anything that going with a Large Laser and again using the 2 tons for something else would not give you more help in. Or maybe dropping the SRM down to a SRM2 and going with a standard PPC would be even more useful for the tank, granted you have the minimum range issue with the PPC, but if things have gotten that close then the tank is dead anyways.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 08:14 PM
76.7.238.202
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Min range(+range brackets) is precisely why I did not use the PPC.
The normal LL does not give either the range or the accuracy of the ERLL.
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:18 PM
70.118.139.48
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What accuracy of the ERLL? It doesn't have anything going for it that the standard Large Laser doesn't have. You gain for 4 extra heat for 4 hexes of range...yeah not seeing that as anything major, since you don't gain any extra damage and the over all weapon system cost you 7 tons when used on a vehicle compared the normal 5 tons if you went with the LL.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 08:21 PM
76.7.238.202
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7/14/19, it has better to-hit numbers than the regular LL at 6 and 7, and 11-14.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/08/14 08:21 PM
206.29.182.244
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I would ditch the Extended Range Large Laser for a standard PPC.
Yes the standard PPC does not exactly have range as the ERLL but it does do two more points of damage. I would say that would be a better investment of the 7 tons.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
03/08/14 08:23 PM
76.7.238.202
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And a minimum range. This way, the Zhukov is capable at both urban and open combat.
Plus the standard PPC has range brackets that are more exploitable than the ERLL.
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:24 PM
70.118.139.48
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Min/Maxing there Retry. We are trying to tell you that the ER LL is not worth using on a vehicle due to the cost of the extra heat sinks needed. It's just not worth it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 08:27 PM
76.7.238.202
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2 extra heat sinks.
2 tons total.
The weapon costs about the same as a PPC on a vehicle if you only use 1.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/08/14 08:29 PM
206.29.182.244
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Min range of 3. If they are at range of 2 you have a +1 and at range 1 you have a +2. Big @#$% deal!
Its still a better choice because of the extra 2 points of damage.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
03/08/14 08:30 PM
76.7.238.202
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Incorrect, at range of 3 you have a +1, at range 2 +2, range 3 +3.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/08/14 08:37 PM
206.29.182.244
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I remembered it incorrectly.
Its still not worth &@#^ caring about it.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:37 PM
70.118.139.48
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The total is 7 tons Retry since you have to pay the weight of the ER LL as well as the heat sinks. Which means you could put a PPC in it's place which is a better use of the 2 tons lost to the weight of two extra heat sinks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 08:42 PM
76.7.238.202
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At a range of 1 it's almost like trying to shoot something at LR.
And as I said, 7 tons for the very helpful weapon system.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/08/14 08:46 PM
38.108.87.20
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
The total is 7 tons Retry since you have to pay the weight of the ER LL as well as the heat sinks. Which means you could put a PPC in it's place which is a better use of the 2 tons lost to the weight of two extra heat sinks.
It's an interesting trade-off. I'm leaning in favour of a PPC because of the necessity of spending the 2 extra tons. I rarely use the ERLL because of the high Heat/Dmg ratio...never really looked at the range brackets before. IfDHS were allowed, I'd probably go with the ERLL
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
03/08/14 08:48 PM
76.7.238.202
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ERLL range brackets-7/14/19
PPC range brackets-6/12/18 with a min of 3.
The PPC just isn't useful enough for urban combat, and has a slightly shorter reach in the open(And with extreme range rules, a moderately shorter reach)
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:49 PM
70.118.139.48
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I wish they would allow vehicles to use DHS, since they allow warships and dropships and aerospace fighters to use them...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 08:49 PM
76.7.238.202
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If vehicles could use DHS, they'd be more capable combatants than mechs.
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:50 PM
70.118.139.48
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And the trade off of the extra heat for range with NOTHING gained in damage isn't not worth the extra weight of the heat sinks. PPC would be far better given that you could put the now gained two tons to other uses like AMS or MGs or more armor etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:51 PM
70.118.139.48
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No Retry they would be equal with mechs, having DHS doesn't change their weaknesses at all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 08:53 PM
76.7.238.202
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I use vehicles all the time effectively, and I can definitively say that vees would eat mechs alive if they had DHS.
You wouldn't gain ANY tonnage with the PPC. Try your math again; 5 tons for the ERLL +2 for the heat sinks is the same tonnage as the 7 ton PPC with no spare heat sinks.
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Karagin
03/08/14 08:58 PM
70.118.139.48
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If you say so Retry, I guess you don't follow the official damage chart with the parts about how the LIMITED facings take more damage then the many facings mechs have thus cause a section loss faster for vehicles or the fact that the to hit table has the extra side effects of killing movement or locking turrets or other fun things for vehicles. But if you say you use them effectively I guess against an AI based system that is a good thing.
Very true Retry you don't gain anything. And you don't lose anything either. Lots can be done with the 2 tons, since you don't want to use the PPC, then go with an Large Laser and use the extra two tons for something else or better still use the light PPC, you could, need to double check it, get two of them for the same weight/heat sink issue and still have a ton left for something else.
Really what we are saying is that you are better off using something else over the ER Lg. Laser.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/08/14 09:10 PM
76.7.238.202
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You don't think I know that?
I duel random people in MekWars all the time, right now in fact.(The guy is taking an "extended smoke break"). The cons are tolerable in 3025 tech and in fact the tanks can often outgun and outarmor the mechs.
In the clantech era it's still tolerable, albeit more difficult to compete 1 on 1. The fact that HS are not needed for all weapons makes it easier to compete with SHS.
DHS would make tanks like the Schreck, Morrigu, and Ontos stupidly effective, more so than now.
You lose better range brackets and gain a minimum range.
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ghostrider
03/08/14 11:57 PM
66.27.181.33
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upgrade to a ppc if you want range and punch. It is still useful in the city, but still have the range when not in one.
And not being a fan of the lbx, I would say it is wasted weight to use them. You could use that for more short range weaponry.
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Retry
03/09/14 12:31 AM
72.214.204.166
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It is a Zhukov. So it must have it. Because Zhukov.
So with that assumption the new AC saves 2 tons.
PPC only deals 2 damage for quite worse range brackets.
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Karagin
03/09/14 12:33 AM
70.118.139.48
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Where does it say in any rule book that something HAS TO HAVE X,Y or Z?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/09/14 12:36 AM
72.214.204.166
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I say it so hush.
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Karagin
03/09/14 12:40 AM
70.118.139.48
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Wow.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/09/14 12:42 AM
72.214.204.166
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You don't know Zhukovs then
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ghostrider
03/09/14 12:43 AM
66.27.181.33
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wow. You say the Schreck doesn't need to follow the canon model, but you say this one does?
Please keep your arguments straight.
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Karagin
03/09/14 12:43 AM
70.118.139.48
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It is a tank, it's not anything special and no rule says the damn thing has to have dual anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/09/14 12:45 AM
72.214.204.166
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The Schreck AC model is canon.
It is a Zhukov and it shall smite thee.
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Cray
03/09/14 12:38 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
What accuracy of the ERLL? It doesn't have anything going for it that the standard Large Laser doesn't have. You gain for 4 extra heat for 4 hexes of range...yeah not seeing that as anything major, since you don't gain any extra damage and the over all weapon system cost you 7 tons when used on a vehicle compared the normal 5 tons if you went with the LL.
Look, on vehicles I'd trade an ER LL for a PPC. I'm not a fan of the ER LL in all but tiny niche situations.
But incorrect is incorrect. What accuracy of the ER LL over the LL? At ranges 6, 7, 11, 12, 13, and 14, the ER LL has a target number 2 lower than a large laser. If you're only seeing "4 extra heat for 4 hexes range," then you're not looking at all the 6 hexes of range where the ER LL has a -2 to-hit bonus over the large laser.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
03/09/14 12:43 PM
70.118.139.48
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What minus 2 Cray? Where does it gain this pulse like actuary?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/09/14 01:03 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
What minus 2 Cray? Where does it gain this pulse like actuary?
LL Range 6 = Medium Range = +2 Range Modifier.
ERLL Range 6 = Short Range = 0 Range Modifier.
ERLL is more accurate at those ranges. That is the "accuracy" everyone has been referring to. That advantage applies at ranger 6,7, 11, 12, 13, and 14.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/09/14 01:06 PM
70.118.139.48
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I don't see that as any gain advantage for the loss of two tons that could be better spent on other things vs spending it on two extra heat sinks to deal with the 4 extra heat that the ER LL puts out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/09/14 01:10 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
I don't see that as any gain advantage for the loss of two tons that could be better spent on other things vs spending it on two extra heat sinks to deal with the 4 extra heat that the ER LL puts out.
Given the other specs of the tank, I would agree that the two tons are well spent on defensive or anti-Infantry capacity, giving the standard LL compensating advantages vs the ERLL or PPC.
However, I think the ERLL has a slight edge over the PPC (for equal tonnage) in this situation, in spite of the lighter damage.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Cray
03/09/14 01:13 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
What minus 2 Cray? Where does it gain this pulse like actuary?
It's from the ranges. An ER LL is still in short range (base target 4) at hexes 6 and 7 while the large laser has moved to medium range (target 6). The same applies at ranges 11, 12, 13, and 14, when the ER LL is in medium range (target 6) and the large laser is in long range (target 8). The ER LL has a -2 advantage at those ranges.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
03/09/14 01:15 PM
70.118.139.48
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I still don't see that a gain over the extra heat that the weapon puts out and the lose of two tons to it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/09/14 01:18 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
I still don't see that a gain over the extra heat that the weapon puts out and the lose of two tons to it.
The high heat has always been my biggest beef with the ERLL (and the IS ERPPC as well, really), which is why I rarely use it myself when heat is an issue. If it had a heat scale of 10, I'd probably use it a lot.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
03/09/14 03:13 PM
66.27.181.33
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The erll has the accuracy in the sense of extending the ranges over a normal laser or a normal ppc.
That equates to extra accuracy for several hexes where the others shift from short to medium, and medium to long.
And kj hit the nail on the head with the innersphere erll and erppc. No extra damage. It's heat and range. Maybe if they had added a point or 2 it would have covered some of that.
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Retry
03/09/14 03:16 PM
76.7.238.202
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I don't find a point or two of extra damage to be absolutely essential.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/09/14 03:23 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The erll has the accuracy in the sense of extending the ranges over a normal laser or a normal ppc.
That equates to extra accuracy for several hexes where the others shift from short to medium, and medium to long.
And kj hit the nail on the head with the innersphere erll and erppc. No extra damage. It's heat and range. Maybe if they had added a point or 2 it would have covered some of that.
In Average terms, range = accuracy = damage...hitting more often means you do more damage over time.
I don't really object to no increase in dmg, but the increase in hit always felt excessive.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
03/10/14 06:54 PM
24.114.38.64
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Liking the tank upgrades so far. I'm to lazy to fire up my vehicle design program, so I'm waiting impatiently for the pending TX-MML.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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