JMInc. Operation Upgrade -- TRO:3025-3050; Heavy

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ghostrider
04/18/14 01:21 AM
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ban kj for a week. He is purposefully trolling us with his constant teasing.

And karagin, are you going to let us in on your one little upgrade?
KamikazeJohnson
04/20/14 12:11 PM
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Warhammer WHM-JM

Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 7,025,533 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,605

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 PPCs
1 SRM-6
2 Medium Pulse Lasers
2 Medium Lasers
2 Small Pulse Lasers
2 Machine Guns
2 Anti-Missile Systems
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown


================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 107 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 2 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: Fusion Engine 280 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 12(24) 2.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 192 12.00
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 9
L/R Torso 15 22
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 11 20
L/R Leg 15 22

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PPC RA 10 3 7.00
Medium Pulse Laser RA 4 1 2.00
PPC LA 10 3 7.00
Medium Pulse Laser LA 4 1 2.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
SRM-6 RT 4 2 3.00
Machine Gun RT 0 1 0.50
Small Pulse Laser RT 2 1 1.00
Anti-Missile System RT 1 1 0.50
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
Machine Gun LT 0 1 0.50
Small Pulse Laser LT 2 1 1.00
Anti-Missile System LT 1 1 0.50
@SRM-6 (15) RT - 1 1.00
@Anti-Missile System (12) RT - 1 1.00
@MG (1/2) (100) LT - 1 0.50
Free Critical Slots: 9

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 16
4 4 4 2 0 3 2 Structure: 6
Special Abilities: AMS, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

DESIGN NOTES
I don't usually tinker with the Warhammer, as over the years I've seen dozens
of Whammy upgrades and modifications posted here.


The original Warhammer was a powerful presence at long range, and a nightmare
in close. The challenge is to maintain that dominance. However, difficulties
appear right away: how to upgrade the long-range. I thought about adding an
LRM, but it still didn't feel right for a Warhammer.


I played around with twin-ERPPCs, but the high heat output didn't leave enough
tonnage to do much more than improve the armour. However, using DHS and
keeping the standard PPCs left a lot more free tonnage, and still increased the
'Mech's effective firepower by allowing continuous fire of both PPCs while
running, which the original could not do.


Two tons went to armour, 1 ton to CASE, 2 tons for a pair of Anti-Missile
Systems. With defense taken care of, time to look at the close-range weapons.
Upgrade the Small Lasers to Pulse models, add a Medium Pulse Laser to each arm.


Better heat control, much better protection, and more devastating than ever at
close range.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
04/20/14 02:25 PM
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When I did my upgrades for this mech I kept it simple FFA and DHS or EDS and DHS, it doesn't need much to make it even better. Like what you did a lot more then then 3050 one.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
04/20/14 09:04 PM
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at first I was thinking the erppc would have been the route to go, but I guess it was a little light on armor. The problem with innerspher erppc is the lack of extra damage. So range is the only benefit for the extra heat and weight. Still nice against those lrm carriers.

The pulse lasers do help once the mech gets in range of them.

Only thing I can think of right now for a possible variant is fit a large laser on it at the expense of the smaller items. Granted it wouldn't be effective against infantry if you did that.
Retry
04/20/14 09:09 PM
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The IS ERPPC and IS PPC are equal in weight, not counting heat sinks.
This warhammer feels more like a skirmisher than a PPC carrier sort of mech.
It's leg armor is a tad thin. I'd wonder if stripping some MLs for an ERPPC upgrade would make it more effective.
Karagin
04/20/14 09:11 PM
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It doesn't need the ERPPCs to be effective, it has the ability to do more now then it would with the ERPPCs.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
04/20/14 09:17 PM
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I disagree.
Karagin
04/20/14 09:18 PM
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Okay Retry what is it gaining by going to the ERPPCs over the standards that makes it so worthwhile for this design?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
04/20/14 09:21 PM
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It would gain the ability to use it's primary weapons at near point blank, and with a couple extra heat sinks much of it's close range secondary weaponry can be downgraded or deleted.
CrayModerator
04/20/14 09:24 PM
71.47.91.0

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Quote:
Retry writes:

It would gain the ability to use it's primary weapons at near point blank, and with a couple extra heat sinks much of it's close range secondary weaponry can be downgraded or deleted.



Actually, some of those short-ranged weapons aren't bad. But ER PPCs are always nice because they give you options lacking in PPCs. PPCs do not have the option to shoot easily at 1-3 hexes; they cannot shoot at 19 to 23 hexes. ER PPCs can be combined easily with short ranged weapons at 1-3 hexes (if you want) and they can fire at 19 to 23 hexes (if you want).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
04/20/14 09:31 PM
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since when can you not use ppcs at short range? Yes, they can't hit we at that range, but are still usable. There is a point where you must learn to use the weapons at the range they are meant for, not just alpha striking every round.

This may be part of the love of large pulse lasers.
CrayModerator
04/20/14 09:38 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

since when can you not use ppcs at short range? Yes, they can't hit we at that range, but are still usable.



Oh, you can. They just get a little more challenging. But that 5-point heat savings can sometime make their minimum range worth the trouble.

Quote:
There is a point where you must learn to use the weapons at the range they are meant for, not just alpha striking every round.



I know, I wrote the Warlord into canon, which cannot alpha strike without turning into a scorch mark on the map and a pair of foot actuators. It has a pair of heavy PPCs, which have the same range brackets as regular PPCs, and a bunch of medium lasers. You learn to manage heat and minimum ranges on that design. There's a published variant with ER PPCs that will still turn into a scorch mark if you alpha strike.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
04/20/14 09:54 PM
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I am just not seeing the trade off here, guys, I mean 30 heat is not something easy to shake off and given that while at a short range you lose a bit with the PPC but not that much, just not seeing the trade off. Sorry, but I think it works best keeping the original PPCs and going with the setup Kamikaze gave us.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
04/20/14 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Sorry, but I think it works best keeping the original PPCs and going with the setup Kamikaze gave us.



I think you've sold me. With 24 heat capacity, you really can't mix in ER PPCs too easily with the short range weapons of KJ's design. You hinder yourself more than you'd gain with ER PPCs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Retry
04/20/14 10:07 PM
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It is a re-design. There's not really anything stopping you from working around with it to add more DHS while removing some of the secondary array.
KamikazeJohnson
04/20/14 10:37 PM
24.114.22.67

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Quote:
Retry writes:

It is a re-design. There's not really anything stopping you from working around with it to add more DHS while removing some of the secondary array.



With DHS, I will almost always take a single ERPPC over a single PPC. When you pair them up though, the heat output can limit the 'Mech in other ways. To properly operate 2 ERPPCs, you should have 16 DHS, so I could drop the MPLs, but then I have only 11 free crit spaces, requiring me to tinker with the configuration even more. And at range 1-4, I'd much rather have a pair of MPLs than an ERPPC. I can do much more damage with 15 heat worth of closr-range weapons.

An interesting compromise though, and possibly the best all-around: trade the MPLs for MLs, add 2 DHS, and upgrade one PPC to an ERPPC.

I'd happily take that against a dual-ERPPC version.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
04/20/14 10:39 PM
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Can't wait to see the next couple of your ideas given how much this one has drawn comments.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
04/20/14 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Can't wait to see the next couple of your ideas given how much this one has drawn comments.



I'm prettu sure my Charger will create a fair amount of controversy. At least, that's the plan. **Rubs hands together while cackling gleefully**
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Retry
04/20/14 10:42 PM
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Hmm... if you dropped an additional AMS as well, you could get those 4 DHS on it as well... with the extra crit space, that is.
ghostrider
04/21/14 01:50 AM
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I have had thoughts like retry that the big weapons are the best to fire all the time.
Much easier to punch thru armor locations with 10 points then having several lasers scatter across the mech.
More then a few games were won from concentrated fire on one location.
Good example is hitting all one side. Faster take down when you have more then half the chance of hitting the same side.
The big issue with this is once you lose an arm, or get within physical range and can't kick, losing the heavy heat weapons helps to avoid overheating to much.


On the other side, lots of weapons means lots of chances to hit in iffy combat situations as well as more chances for a crit. The machine gun mech shows that.
KamikazeJohnson
04/21/14 02:34 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

I have had thoughts like retry that the big weapons are the best to fire all the time.
Much easier to punch thru armor locations with 10 points then having several lasers scatter across the mech.
More then a few games were won from concentrated fire on one location.
Good example is hitting all one side. Faster take down when you have more then half the chance of hitting the same side.
The big issue with this is once you lose an arm, or get within physical range and can't kick, losing the heavy heat weapons helps to avoid overheating to much.


On the other side, lots of weapons means lots of chances to hit in iffy combat situations as well as more chances for a crit. The machine gun mech shows that.



It comes down to tradeoffs. Unless ammo supply is a concern, you fire a Gauss Rifle any time you have a target number less than 13, because there's no better way to spend 1 heat. A PPC is good to fire any time as well, but once you get in close, SRMs and MLs are much more efficient. A Streak SRM 6 does 12 damage for 4 heat...doesn't get much better than that. For the same heat as an ERPPC, you get 5 Medium Lasers, for a potential 25 damage. Even at range 4-6, that's your better option; To-Hit of 9 for the 5 lasers will average higher damage than an ERPPC at 7. Plus, in theory at least, the PPCs, Gauss Rifles, Large Lasers, and LRMs have worn down the armour, making the scatter shots much more dangerous than the big hits.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/21/14 05:58 AM
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Playing the game when it came out had alot of ideas burned into the brain.
It is taking time, since a lack of playing after the clans, to get some concepts out of the mind.

Also, die rolls play a big part. I have done the 10 mls on a custom mech and only hit with 2, while having only 2 ppcs on another hitting with both almost constantly play a part on how I think. Min/max doesn't really make the game fun. Winning is great, but how boring does it get taking an awesome against a lance of urban mechs in the open?

I dislike missiles because of the spread tables. Bad luck. I admit that.
I've had streaks on mechs and never locked with them in a battle. 6+ rolls at times. Just bad luck. When I use some things, I seem to have better luck. Doesn't mean its better, just coincidence.
I've fallen more then a few times on a 3+ doing kicks. Then have the damn mech not be able to stand up again. Just luck.

I also found that when you do a head hit, it is best to take it off in one shot. The ppc atleast goes critical.
I have had bad luck with sanding off armor, which is why I don't like the lbx cannons. Granted when you hit, you get a good chance with getting a critical, but again, bad luck with the spread tables. It is why I like the ac 20. There is not rationale to it, except the luck of the dice.

I do understand the more efficient. It is just trying to get out of a rut that was taught playing the game with some people. The only tactic being destroy the enemy. You will get a new mech if you lose this one. We were having fun. No tactics, no jumping around to avoid being hit, no light mechs or even mediums.
KamikazeJohnson
04/23/14 08:33 PM
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Marauder MAD-JM

Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 15,753,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,719

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 ER PPCs
1 LB 10-X AC
4 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown


================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 114 points 7.50
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 17(34) 7.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 1 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 216 13.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT 0.50

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 35
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 16 24
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 12 24
L/R Leg 16 25

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
ER PPC RA 15 3 7.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
ER PPC LA 15 3 7.00
LB 10-X AC RT 2 6 11.00
2 Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10) LT - 1 1.00
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 9

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 17
4 4 4 3 0 3 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, FLK 1/1/1

DESIGN NOTES
I've never really been a fan of the Marauder, mainly because of its heat
problems, light leg armour, and limited close-range weapons. The TRO:3050
variant solved a lot with DHS and by replacing the AC/5 with a Large Pusle
Laser, but for some reason I just didn't like the feel of it, at least not as a
Marauder.

A basic upgrade of a Marauder is pretty obvious: Save 3.5 tons with Endo Steel,
upgrade the PPCs, upgrade the AC/5 to a UAC/5, add a second ton of ammo,
protect with CASE, upgrade to DHS, and use the remaining ton for more armour or
an additional DHS. Not bad.

I felt I could do better though. Using an XL Engine rather than Endo Steel
saves 6 additional tons. Upgrade to a LB 10-X AC, add 2 more Medium Lasers, 1
more DHS, and another ton of armour. More durable, more versatile at all
ranges, and even able to maintain fire with one PPC along with all the
short-range weapons without building up heat. Well worth the increased risk
(and cost) with the XL Engine.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Retry
04/23/14 09:32 PM
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I must question the benefit the medium lasers provide. It's primary weapon systems can deliver 30 points of damage at point blank at ease, and can do so without overheating at all, even while running. Adding medium lasers to the combo provides little benefit unless you fire only one PPC, but even then the benefit isn't spectacular. If the crits allow it, 2 DHS and 2 MLs would allow everything to be fired at once with no loss in damage at close range.
Karagin
04/23/14 09:50 PM
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It has a nice feel of what the original had and you did go a long way to fixing some of the issues you listed. I like the idea of the close in weapons which allows you to keep the bigger guns for much of a ranged fight.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
04/23/14 10:04 PM
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Alternatively, another great option would be to change the lasers to small pulses. It loses minimal firepower at close while becoming a conventional infantry mauler.
KamikazeJohnson
04/23/14 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Retry writes:

I must question the benefit the medium lasers provide. It's primary weapon systems can deliver 30 points of damage at point blank at ease, and can do so without overheating at all, even while running. Adding medium lasers to the combo provides little benefit unless you fire only one PPC, but even then the benefit isn't spectacular. If the crits allow it, 2 DHS and 2 MLs would allow everything to be fired at once with no loss in damage at close range.



First, arm-mounted Primary weapons are the most vulnerable; a few hits deciding to find the same arm can destroy or cripple a PPC fairly early on...if you play with Floating Crits, your odds increase. A single critical hit can costyou half your firepower.

Second, 4 MLs give you more location rolls than 2 MLs and a PPC...only a diffence of 1 hit (same total damage), but still better odds of scoring a crit that changes the outcome of the battle...2 PPCs when the armiyr is intact, 4 MLs once gaps appear.

Third, having lower-heat options is nice in the event of destroyed Heat Sinks or Engine hits.

Fourth, better Alpha Strike should you be pushed to that point: you have the potential to deliver more "last chance" damage if you don't expect to kuve to see another volley. Perhaps more importantly, your enemies know how powerful your Alpha Strike can be, and they might step more carefully (to your benefit).

Finally...persona preference. Given the same damage potential, I'd rather have more weapons (and therefore more options).
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/24/14 01:35 AM
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I like the marauder look. some of the heat issues were bad, but for the time it was designed, it worked. Like the warhammer,.
Double heat sinks have made a lot of designs more playable, even without the rest of the high end tech.
The addition of 2 more mls is definitely a good idea. as well as upgrading the cannon to something other then the ultra 5,
KamikazeJohnson
04/24/14 01:46 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

I like the marauder look. some of the heat issues were bad, but for the time it was designed, it worked. Like the warhammer,.
Double heat sinks have made a lot of designs more playable, even without the rest of the high end tech.
The addition of 2 more mls is definitely a good idea. as well as upgrading the cannon to something other then the ultra 5,



Oddly enough, the more I play around with these modifications, the more I like the UAC/5 in comparison to the LB 10-X (except for that pesky jamming issue...) I had considered using a Gauss Rifle on this one, but that would have required dropping the MLs and 2 DHS, which would mean 1 point overheat plus movement. While I don't always insist on full heat control, I do prefer it for a 'Mech's primary weapons, particularly long-range. The Marauder has 3 primary weapons, and should be able to sustain fire of all 3 without overheat, while walking if not running, so the tonnage saved with the LB comes in handy. Besides, the LB provides some much-needed scatter damage once there are armour gaps to exploit.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/24/14 01:57 AM
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The ultra 5 is ok, but was never a real fan of the 5 series.
Nice to see you have a variant planned with the gauss. That one might have been a good idea to go with, and honestly, mechs do not always need full armor load. With dropping the other things, you may have been able to use your endosteel or maybe ferrous fibre.
The range and damage of the gauss would open those gaps and possibly not need to exploit them next round by doing the damage this round.
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