KamikazeJohnson
03/26/14 01:42 AM
50.72.218.68
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Here we go with some of the Big Boys. My treatment of the 3025 Heavy 'Mechs using 3050 technology. IMHO, this is where the upgrades really start to get interesting. Enjoy!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
03/26/14 01:46 AM
50.72.218.68
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Dragon DRG-JM
Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 11,771,200 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,505
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
1 ER PPC
1 Ultra AC/5
1 LRM-10
1 Medium Pulse Laser
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 99 points 3.00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 11(22) 1.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 168 10.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 27
Center Torso (rear) 12
L/R Torso 14 18
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 10 15
L/R Leg 14 19
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ultra AC/5 RA 1 5 9.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Medium Pulse Laser LA 4 1 2.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
ER PPC LT 15 3 7.00
LRM-10 CT 4 2 5.00
@Ultra AC/5 (40) RT - 2 2.00
@LRM-10 (24) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 10
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 15
5 3 4 2 0 3 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1
DESIGN NOTES:
The...another 'Mech that failed to impress me. The LRM 10 is the recognized
worth LRM rack, and the AC/5 doesn't cut it s the primary weapon on a
60-tonner.
The Grand Dragon did a little better, replacing the AC/5 with a PPC, but that
essentially turned it into an overgrown Griffin without Jump Jets (which
actually saved a half ton).
The TRO:3050 Grand Dragon took the design to the logical next level, using an
XL Engine to increase the speed even more. However, in spite of the speed,
it's still underpowered for its weight class, and could be remade much more
efficiently at a lower weight.
I decided to kind of combine the Dragon and Grand Dragon concepts. Keeping the
speed the same, I went with XL Engine and Endo Steel, upgraded to 11 DHS, CASE
on both side Torso locations. Hmm...ERPPC or UAC/5? How about...both?
Remaining tonnage to a Medium Pulse Laser and a bit more armour, and we're
done!
And before anyone asks..I put the new MPL in the arm for thematic reasons...I
know I probably *should* have put it in the RT so there was something in there
besides ammo. Now if only Light Ferro-Fibrous were available in 3050...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/26/14 06:31 AM
70.118.139.48
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Well played. Excellent way to take two variants and make one better mech!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/26/14 09:02 AM
66.27.181.1
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as I said with another mech, an lb10x might have been the way to go with the cannon. Granted a gauss rifle would have been nasty.
Could have gained more by dropping the speed, but that is about the only advantage the Dragon had on other mechs of it's weight.
The 60 ton range is not that great.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/26/14 01:28 PM
24.114.27.167
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Hmmm...LB 10-X and an ERLL? Would save me a Heat Sink as well for more armour. Worthwhile variant.
Gauss Rifle...I'd have to drop the LRM to save enough tonnage. ERPPC/Gauss Rifle work VERY well together. But again, that takes it a bit far from the original for my project. I like the result though!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
03/29/14 12:45 PM
50.72.218.68
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The Ostroc and Octsol are irritatingly similar, so just for fun I did them up as configurations of an Omni, since a major part of their design is being essentially difeerent sets of weapons on the same chassis. Yeah, I know IS didn't have Omnis in 3050, but the configurations work as stand-alone designs as well.
Osttwins OST-JM
Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped Omnimech
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3085
Cost: 13,644,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 813
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
23.5 tons of pod space.
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 99 points 3.00
Internal Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT, 6 LA, 6 RA
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL 5.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 12(24) 2.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 176 11.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 29
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 14 22
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 10 12
L/R Leg 14 24
================================================================================
Loadout Name: Ostroc Cost: 15,208,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A BV2: 1,650
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jumping MP: 5 (Standard)
Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL 0.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 13(26) 1.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
ER Large Laser RT 12 2 5.00
SRM-6 RT 4 2 3.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
ER Large Laser LT 12 2 5.00
SRM-6 LT 4 2 3.00
(R) Medium Laser CT 3 1 1.00
(R) Medium Laser HD 3 1 1.00
@SRM-6 (30) RT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 6
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 17
5j 3 3 2 0 3 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, SRM 1/1/0
================================================================================
Loadout Name: Ostsol Cost: 15,220,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A BV2: 1,598
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jumping MP: 5 (Standard)
Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL 0.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 14(28) 2.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Pulse Laser RT 10 2 7.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Pulse Laser RT 4 1 2.00
Large Pulse Laser LT 10 2 7.00
Guardian ECM Suite LT 0 2 1.50
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
(R) Medium Laser CT 3 1 1.00
(R) Medium Laser HD 3 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 7
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 16
5j 4 4 0 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, ECM, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
I can honestly say I've never used either of the OST Twins in a game. They
never appealed to me for a variety of reasons: high heat, light armour, no arm
weapons, but no Hand Actuators for Punching. All they had going for them was
their speed.
I started off by using Endo Steel and XL Engine, upgrading to DHS and stripping
off the extra heat sinks. An additional 2 tons of armour for decent protection.
Following the general pattern of the TRO:3050, I used ERLLs on the Ostroc, but
I went farther by upgrading the SRM and adding a second launcher. A pair of
Medium Lasers for the front and another pair for the back, and 3 additional
Heat Sinks.
The Ostsol I optimized for short range with Large Pulse Lasers. Medium Lasers
front and back, an additional Medium Pulse Laser, 4 additional DHS, and an ECM
Suite to help it get into range.
But I still don't like them...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/29/14 01:11 PM
70.118.139.48
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They offer some interesting things to those who are stuck with them as part of a scenario or as a random mech assignment. I do like where you went with these and they do offer some interesting choices as far as improvements go.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/29/14 04:00 PM
66.27.181.1
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ppc upgrade is one way it could have gone.
Having a rear firing laser in the head is an interesting developement.
Since going with the omni set up, is any of the weapons a permanant fixture, or are they all pods? Same question with the heat sinks.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/29/14 06:21 PM
24.114.27.104
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
ppc upgrade is one way it could have gone.
Having a rear firing laser in the head is an interesting developement.
Since going with the omni set up, is any of the weapons a permanant fixture, or are they all pods? Same question with the heat sinks.
The original Ostsol had 2 rear-firing laser in the CT. I used a CT space for a Jump Jet, so one had to go in the Head.
I set all the weapons as modular...12 heat sinks locked as they don't have to be placed.
But having it as an Omni is completely outside the 3050 setting. I just had fun calling then the OST Twins, so the Omni seemed appropriaten To fit the timeline, consider them to be completely distinct designs, rather than Omni configurations.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/29/14 06:46 PM
70.118.139.48
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Do recall the fluff already had the Assassin as having modular ability, not saying that is best example but it does allow for away to have the Osttwins as possibility...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/29/14 07:29 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Do recall the fluff already had the Assassin as having modular ability, not saying that is best example but it does allow for away to have the Osttwins as possibility...
It was always my impression that the Ostroc and Ostsol chassis were built on the same assembly line, then fitted with model-specific gear later. While not exactly modular, it should be relatively easy to refit an Ostroc as an Ostsol and vice versa, as the chassis was built to accomodate both sets of equipment.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/29/14 09:10 PM
70.118.139.48
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I agree with that idea.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/29/14 09:41 PM
66.27.181.1
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I believe the mongoose had fluff about the medium lasers is used on the torso and head being modular. They stated the on in the head ran hot because of a poor cooling jacket.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/30/14 01:20 AM
50.72.218.68
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Quickdraw QKD-JM
Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 12,143,360 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,617
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
1 ER PPC
1 LRM-10 w/ Artemis IV FCS
4 Medium Lasers
1 Streak SRM-2
2 Small Pulse Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 99 points 3.00
Internal Locations: 2 RT, 4 LA, 4 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT 5.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 12(24) 2.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 168 10.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 24
Center Torso (rear) 7
L/R Torso 14 21
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 10 16
L/R Leg 14 21
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
Small Pulse Laser RA 2 1 1.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Small Pulse Laser LA 2 1 1.00
2 (R) Medium Lasers RT 6 2 2.00
ER PPC RT 15 3 7.00
LRM-10 LT 4 2 5.00
Artemis IV FCS LT - 1 1.00
Streak SRM-2 CT 2 1 1.50
@LRM-10 (24) LT - 2 2.00
@Streak SRM-2 (50) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 5
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 16
5j 3 3 2 0 3 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1
DESIGN NOTES:
Quickdraw...inefficient speed, not enough armour, not enough long-range
firepower, not enough LRM Ammo...a design full of issues. The FASA solution
was to use DHS, increase the armour slightly with Ferro Fibrous, and replace
the SRM 4 with a One-Shot version to save tonnage for CASE(!) Yeah, OK...
A 60-tonner with 5/8 movement needs an XL Engine. It really does. Otherwise
you're better off with a 55-tonner, possibly even a 50-tonner with the same
equipment. XL Engine, Endo Steel, replace 13 Heat Sinks with 12 DHS. That
saves 13.5 tons, which I put to good use.
First priority: improve long-range. Solution: ERPPC in the RT. Add a second
ammo bin for the LRM, enhance with Artemis. Replace the SRM 4 with a Streak-2
to save 1/2 ton for CASE, and avoid needing to attach Artemis to the SRM.
Slight decrease in damage, but stil better than the One-Shot.
Second priority: additional 2.5 tons of armour. Still lighter than ideal, but
with its speed, it should get away with it. Rather than max the armour, I
opted for Anti-Infantry, installing a SPL in each arm.
Noticed after the fact that my upgrade bears a haunting resemblance to
Thunderbolt. Even more if you trade the ERPPC for an ERLL and upgrade the LRM
to a 15...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/30/14 02:12 AM
70.118.139.48
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You have the room Ferro would still work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/30/14 02:15 AM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
You have the room Ferro would still work.
Ummm...no, I only have 5 free crits...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/30/14 02:19 AM
70.118.139.48
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Code:Type/Model: Quickdraw QKD-4X
Mass: 60 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 99 pts Standard 0 6.00
Engine: 300 XL Fusion 12 9.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 12 Double [24] 0 2.00
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 161 pts Ferro-Fibrous 14 9.00
(Armor Crit Loc: 1 HD, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LT, 2 RT, 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 20 24
Center Torso (Rear): 8
L/R Side Torso: 14 16/16
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 6/6
L/R Arm: 10 16/16
L/R Leg: 14 22/22
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
1 Medium Pulse Laser RA 4 1 2.00
1 Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
1 Medium Pulse Laser LA 4 1 2.00
1 Streak SRM 2 RT 2 50 2 2.50
(Ammo Locations: 1 RT)
1 ER PPC RT 15 3 7.00
1 LRM 10 w/ Artemis IV LT 4 12 4 7.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 LT)
5 Standard Jump Jets: 5 5.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 LT, 2 RT, 1 CT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 35 69 60.00
Crits & Tons Left: 9 .00
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/30/14 02:30 AM
50.72.218.68
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Pretty close...I usually take Endo Steel over Ferro Fibrous unless I'm specifically doing a field refit, as it typically saves about twice the tonnage.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/30/14 10:44 AM
70.118.139.48
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I agree Endo is better, I was going for the idea that the other improvements were there, ie your choice of weapons and engine and the Ferro seemed like a good choice.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/30/14 03:39 PM
66.27.181.1
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another mech that was a hard to play mech that is saved by upgrades.
It may be an option to use 2 mgs, and a half ton of ammo. You would have a half ton of armor, or maybe a third mg. The small pulse lasers are nice because they don't run out of ammo.
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Karagin
03/31/14 12:37 AM
70.118.139.48
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What about doing away with the SRMs all together?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/31/14 02:21 AM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
What about doing away with the SRMs all together?
I prefer not to remove weapon systems when upgrading, unless absolutely necessary. As a modification, that 2.5 tons could be put to good use. Armour, ECM, AMS...lots of good choices.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
04/01/14 04:11 AM
50.72.218.68
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Rifleman RL-JM
Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 10,049,600 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,319
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 240 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 Large Lasers
2 Ultra AC/5s
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 99 points 3.00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 CT, 2 LT, 1 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 240 6.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 11(22) 1.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 168 10.50
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 24
Center Torso (rear) 7
L/R Torso 14 21
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 10 16
L/R Leg 14 21
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Laser RA 8 2 5.00
Ultra AC/5 RA 1 5 9.00
Large Laser LA 8 2 5.00
Ultra AC/5 LA 1 5 9.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
@Ultra AC/5 (60) RT - 3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 5
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 13
4 4 4 2 0 3 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
The Rifleman. Renowned for having ample firepower, but not enough Heat Sinks
to use more than half of it. Not to mention a shortage of AC Ammo and
tragically light armour.
A very simple upgrade makes the Rifleman much more effective: DHS allow the
Rifleman to maintain fire with all 4 primary weapons while running without
overheating, turning the despised 'Mech into a powerhouse. The challenge for
upgrading further is to make sure you don't create more problems than you
solve. I was quite impressed that the TRO:3050 upgrade held onto the Standard
Large Lasers rather than upgrading to ERLLs, and thereby recreating the same
old problem. I was less happy that the upgrade to UAC/5s was not accompanied
by additional ammo, especially when the ammo supply was low to start with.
After using DHS, the next step would be to gain 3 tons by use of Endo Steel.
The allocation is obvious: UAC/5s and an additional ton of ammo.
This final version also uses XL Engine to solve the Rifleman's final weakness:
its weak armour. A full three extra tons of armour, CASE for the ammo, a third
ton of ammo, bringing the total to a minimum 15 rounds' worth at full rate of
fire, and an additional DHS, allowing maximum long-range fire while running
without overheat.
A suggested variant: since the improved heat management allows sustained use of
both Large Lasers, the Medium Lasers are a little redundant; drop them for 2
additional DHS, and upgrade the Large Lasers to Extended-Range models.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
04/01/14 05:06 AM
66.27.181.1
|
I think the mediums are ok. It allows the rifleman to keep firing in the forward arcs when they run out of ammo, or lose an arm.
But you have covered the problems with it nicely.
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Karagin
04/01/14 06:26 AM
70.118.139.48
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Logical use of things and adds to the Rifleman's profile as a fire support or Triple A mech to suppress enemy VTOLs and Aerospace.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/01/14 02:54 PM
66.27.181.1
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Besides the fluff saying it, why is the rifleman an anti air mech?
The fluff said it had to do with the radar, but there is nothing in game terms that support this.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/01/14 03:32 PM
24.114.27.54
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Besides the fluff saying it, why is the rifleman an anti air mech?
The fluff said it had to do with the radar, but there is nothing in game terms that support this.
Fluff also labels the JagerMech as AA, as well as the Pike and Partisan tanks...apparently small AC = Anti-Aircraft. Not sure why.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Retry
04/01/14 04:37 PM
72.214.204.166
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Flak ammo and AA quirks.
That's about it, because other than those bonuses they're nothing special.
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ghostrider
04/01/14 06:59 PM
66.27.181.1
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look at the time of the units that came out in game play.
There were no rules about flak in the original game. I think the partisan said something about flak, and that came out after the rifleman was in use back when the game first came out. They fluff isn't always canon, or so it was mentioned in another thread.
The original box set had nothing to support the rifleman being an anti air mech except the fluff.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/01/14 07:06 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
look at the time of the units that came out in game play.
There were no rules about flak in the original game. I think the partisan said something about flak, and that came out after the rifleman was in use back when the game first came out. They fluff isn't always canon, or so it was mentioned in another thread.
The original box set had nothing to support the rifleman being an anti air mech except the fluff.
I would guess it was pretty much just a fluff decision...the writers decided ACs were effective AA weapons.
Although I guess the range helps keep target numbers reasonable against speedy VTOLs, and hit hard enough to take out a rotor.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
04/01/14 07:06 PM
76.7.236.208
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Range was probably another factor in the determination of an AA mech.
I bet some later optional rules such as quirks and flak ammo came out later to further reflect the roles.
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Karagin
04/01/14 11:19 PM
70.118.139.48
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To me the Rifleman offers both Triple A fire as well as fire support or suppression. It was found a lot in the fire-lances of many of the House armies and knowing how to use it helps keep it alive. So it has other uses then in the role of air defense.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
04/01/14 11:33 PM
76.7.236.208
|
With the exception of more advanced games where you can actually make use of advanced ammo and quirks, the Rifleman is no better than any other design in the fire support role or the AA role. One of my favorite pieces of fluff is when some wing or two of Mechbuster convfighters took out a bunch of mechs guarded by riflemen, including some Riflemen.
|
Karagin
04/01/14 11:39 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Given that the game existed and worked well enough without silly quirks etc...the mech works well in the role the writers gave it and how folks use it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
04/01/14 11:44 PM
76.7.236.208
|
Every mech works well in the anti-aircraft role if it has any decent long ranged weaponry, given the current rules. I'd rather commision a MAD-3R for my AA needs than 2 Riflemen when playing in a mode where there are no special ammo or quirks that actually allow the Riflemen to be close to impressive. A Warhammer would make a better AA Mech than the Rifleman without flak and quirks, but that's because autocannons suck.
|
Karagin
04/01/14 11:48 PM
70.118.139.48
|
So Kamikaze what is next on the plate?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/02/14 12:41 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Karagin writes:
So Kamikaze what is next on the plate?
Catapult is next...should be up tomorrow some time.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/02/14 01:08 AM
66.27.181.1
|
I would think with pulse weapons out, they would be the ultimate in anti air. Missile boats would be better as well, but they are more like rockets, since they don't all seem to hit.
the Rifleman would have been better if they has like a +1 for anti air bonus.
|
Retry
04/02/14 01:17 AM
76.7.236.208
|
Clan pulse lasers are stupidly good at AA actually, enough so that the Rifleman IIC looks like something built by a munchkin with a quad LPL array. It almost makes autocannons obsolete (like that's a suprise) in almost every role.
IS pulse lasers lose out in range drastically so it won't work that way for them.
|
ghostrider
04/02/14 01:21 AM
66.27.181.1
|
they still make great anti air guns, unless they are the small lasers. There is no other problems with range and anti air.
Against ground target is another story.
And don't discount the quad lpl's. Once in range, they tear crap up.
Honestly, I would take the lpl's over acs anyday. The clan versions. Innersphere is too short on range, though that isn't something you can't work around.
|
Retry
04/02/14 01:40 AM
76.7.236.208
|
When I said "built by a munchkin" I wasn't discounting the quad LPL. On the contrary, it's the inverse.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/03/14 12:08 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Catapult CPLT-JM
Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 6,760,325 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,679
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous w/ CASE
Armament:
2 LRM-15s w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 ER Large Laser
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 4 LT, 4 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 260 13.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT 4.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 179 10.00
Armor Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 24
Center Torso (rear) 12
L/R Torso 15 22
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 10 17
L/R Leg 15 20
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LRM-15 RA 5 3 7.00
Artemis IV FCS RA - 1 1.00
LRM-15 LA 5 3 7.00
Artemis IV FCS LA - 1 1.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
ER Large Laser CT 12 2 5.00
@LRM-15 (Artemis) (16) RT - 2 2.00
@LRM-15 (Artemis) (16) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 1
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 17
4j 3 3 3 0 3 2 Structure: 5
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 2
DESIGN NOTES:
The Catapult...another Archer wannabe, trading a bit of LRM firepower, ammo
supply, and armour for Jump capability. An overall decent machine; a few weak
points, but better than most.
FASA chose the Cataput to be the recipient of an Arrow IV system; my opinion
is that artillery systems belong on tanks, not heavy 'Mechs.
So...weak points to address: light armour, low ammo supply, limited close-range
capability to take best advantage of its jump range.
Strip off the "extra" heat sinks, upgrade to DHS. Endo Steel for a combined
saving of 8 tons. Additional LRM Ammo, Artemis IV for increased average
damage, CASE in both torsos, and then, for increased versatility, replace the
CT Lasers with an ER Large Laser. Finally, Ferro Fibrous Armour provides the
equivalent of more than an extra ton of protection.
The result is a bit of overheat at long range, but manageable. However, I did
come up with a further upgrade using an XL Engine (which I chose to avoid in
the listed version due to the inherent risk). After returning to Standard
armour to free up enough space for the additional Engine crits, remaining
tonnage goes to 2 additional Heat Sinks (solving the overheat problem), a
Medium Pulse Laser in the Head, and another boost to armour.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/03/14 03:42 AM
66.27.181.155
|
The original catapult had four medium lasers in the front torso areas. I would think this is better then the archer that had 2 firing in the rear and 2 front firing ones..
I am surprised you didn't try to upgrade the lrm packs, but went for the erll. The laser does make it a little more durable in a fight.
Maybe remove ferrous fiber and add the xl. upgrade lrms. Think maybe remove erll and use some weight to add armor. if anything left add in some lasers, weither medium or a large one, though some extra ammo doesn't hurt with the larger missile packs.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/03/14 11:04 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The original catapult had four medium lasers in the front torso areas. I would think this is better then the archer that had 2 firing in the rear and 2 front firing ones..
I am surprised you didn't try to upgrade the lrm packs, but went for the erll. The laser does make it a little more durable in a fight.
Maybe remove ferrous fiber and add the xl. upgrade lrms. Think maybe remove erll and use some weight to add armor. if anything left add in some lasers, weither medium or a large one, though some extra ammo doesn't hurt with the larger missile packs.
Not really a big fan of the LRM 20; I find the LRM 15 more efficient in mist cases, unless going for all-out long range. I wanted more versatility, plus twin-LRM 20s are the Archer's thing, no imitators allowed lol. Although on the XL variant, it would certainly be reasonable to drop the ERLL ans a Heat Sink to upgrade the LRMs.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Retry
04/03/14 03:33 PM
72.214.204.166
|
Pfft, the Archer wishes it could JJ like a catapult.
|
Karagin
04/03/14 07:15 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Good job with the Catapult. It has the missing ability to move around and be an asset more then just window dressing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/04/14 09:42 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Crusader CRD-JM
Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 12,203,510 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,355
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 LRM-15s
2 SRM-6s
2 Medium Pulse Lasers
2 Medium Lasers
2 Machine Guns
1 C3 Computer (Slave)
1 TAG
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 4 LT, 4 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 260 7.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 192 12.00
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 33
Center Torso (rear) 8
L/R Torso 15 24
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 15 21
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LRM-15 RA 5 3 7.00
Machine Gun RA 0 1 0.50
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
LRM-15 LA 5 3 7.00
Machine Gun LA 0 1 0.50
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Medium Pulse Laser RT 4 1 2.00
C3 Computer (Slave) RT 0 1 1.00
Medium Pulse Laser LT 4 1 2.00
TAG LT 0 1 1.00
SRM-6 RL 4 2 3.00
SRM-6 LL 4 2 3.00
@LRM-15 (16) RT - 2 2.00
@LRM-15 (16) LT - 2 2.00
@SRM-6 (30) CT - 2 2.00
@MG (1/2) (100) HD - 1 0.50
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 14
4 4 4 2 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: C3S, TAG, CASE, MHQ1, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, SRM 1/1/0, LRM 1/1/1, IF 1
DESIGN NOTES:
The Crusader is an example of a 'Mech that tries to do everything. By trying
to be dominating at both long-range and short-range, it ends up with poor heat
control and limited staying power, without being a truly dominating presence at
any range.
The FASA upgrade goes a little overkill with DHS, and monkeys with the short
range stuff in order to add AMS and CASE. A somewhat inelegant uprade.
I felt in order to really become anything, the Crusader needed all the spare
tonnage I could muster, so I saved 9.5 tons with Endo Steel and XL Engine; what
surprised me was how little that got me. An additional 3 tons of ammo (2 LRM,
1 SRM) and CASE in both side torsos were essential, as was the upgrade to DHS
for heat control. I moved the MG ammo to the head (reduced to 1/2 ton) to make
room in the CT for the extra ton of SRM ammo, leaving 4 crits and 6 tons. With
limited options due to space, I added 2 Medium Pulse Lasers, and gave it the
ability to "call down the thunder" with both TAG and a C3 Slave unit.
A surprisingly difficult upgrade, owing to the sheer number of minor issues
that needed to be addressed.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/04/14 10:01 PM
66.27.181.155
|
One issue that you may overlooked with the ammo distribution. Adding it into the center torso kind of reduces the case in the other torsos. The head is self explanitory.
Might have put tag or c3 in head, or center torso.
Still a nice upgrade.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/04/14 10:08 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
One issue that you may overlooked with the ammo distribution. Adding it into the center torso kind of reduces the case in the other torsos. The head is self explanitory.
Might have put tag or c3 in head, or center torso.
Still a nice upgrade.
The original had the SRM and MG ammo in the CT, so I left it there. The SRM ammo could certainly be moved to the side torsos, and something else put in the CT.
The Head is the least likely place to get a crit, so it's (mechanically speaking) the safest place for ammo. Plus I didn't want to spoil the Crusader's beautiful symmetry 
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/04/14 10:14 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Overall a much better fire support mech and one that offers more use.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/04/14 10:18 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Karagin writes:
Overall a much better fire support mech and one that offers more use.
Thanks. I wanted to upgrade to LRM 20s, but that pretty much let me increase ammo supply and add CASE, and that was it.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/04/14 10:24 PM
70.118.139.48
|
The Crusader is a tough one to tinker with. Some of the heavier mechs are not easy to make changes too and still get decent outcomes. Yet here you managed to reach a good middle ground.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/05/14 11:30 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Ok, I did two versions of this one: the first is a direct upgrade in accordance with my restrictions for the project; the second is what the JagerMech deserves.
JagerMech JM6-JM
Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 11,408,375 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,125
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 Ultra AC/5s
2 Medium Lasers
2 Autocannon/2s
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 260 7.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 168 10.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 24
Center Torso (rear) 7
L/R Torso 15 21
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 10 16
L/R Leg 15 21
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Autocannon/2 RA 1 1 6.00
Ultra AC/5 RA 1 5 9.00
Autocannon/2 LA 1 1 6.00
Ultra AC/5 LA 1 5 9.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
@Ultra AC/5 (40) RT - 2 2.00
@Ultra AC/5 (40) LT - 2 2.00
@AC/2 (45) CT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 10
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 11
4 3 3 2 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JagerMech JM6-JM(1)
Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 11,895,125 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,701
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
2 Gauss Rifles
2 Medium Lasers
1 C3 Computer (Slave)
1 Anti-Missile System
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 260 7.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 160 10.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 25
Center Torso (rear) 6
L/R Torso 15 21
L/R Torso (rear) 5
L/R Arm 10 15
L/R Leg 15 19
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle RA 1 7 15.00
Gauss Rifle LA 1 7 15.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
Anti-Missile System CT 1 1 0.50
C3 Computer (Slave) HD 0 1 1.00
@Gauss Rifle (16) RT - 2 2.00
@Gauss Rifle (16) LT - 2 2.00
@Anti-Missile System (12) CT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 8
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 5 Points: 17
4 4 4 3 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: C3S, AMS, MHQ1, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
The first version is fairly similar to the TRO:3050 version, using Endo Steel and XL Engine to free up as much tonnage as possible, upgrading the AC/5s to UAC/5s, increasing the ammo accordingly, adding CASE, and using remaining tonnage for a much-needed armour boost.
The second is a bit more radical. The four Autocannons are replaced with a pair of Gauss Rifles, finally giving it significant firepower. A C3 Slave unit allows it to make the most of the massive weapons, while a AMS and 4 additional tons of armour provide increased protection.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/05/14 01:20 PM
66.27.181.155
|
wow. a mech that doesn't need dhs.
I agree the second is a massive upgrade that makes the mech worth using.
|
Karagin
04/05/14 06:57 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Again, this falls into the pattern of the first one is the one sent out to fill the gap till the second one can come off the drawing boards and in to production. Well done on both.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
04/06/14 01:40 PM
172.56.17.206
|
I know that this does not go with the time era but I would put in two light gauss rifles, four extended range medium lasers, up the armor three tons, and add one more ton of ammo.
I am wondering if you will do something like I did with my Awesome. 320 XL for 4/6 mov, 21 DHS, and four standard PPCs.
What moves 65 kph and has 21 DHS to keep four PPCs cold? I don't know but I don't want to stick around to find out!
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (04/06/14 01:42 PM)
|
ghostrider
04/06/14 04:46 PM
66.27.181.155
|
you could just put up the stats yourself donkey.
who knows, you might just get a comic after yours idea.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/06/14 06:22 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Looks like no one really cares to discuss much about the JagerMech. Can't say I'm surprised...
Up next is the biggest challenge of the entire project: my trusty, beloved Thunderbolt.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/06/14 06:25 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Not much else to say you did a major improvement on it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
04/06/14 07:16 PM
66.27.181.155
|
what is it you want us to say? most ac 2's bite the big one? They are mainly for trying to crit units before they can get into firing range?
Honestly, I never really liked the original jagermech. ac 2's and 5's were not my thing. I prefer ppcs for main range weapons because you can potshot with them and not worry about running out of ammo.
The gauss rifle one makes them worth looking at again. I would rather use a rifleman over a jagermech any day.
The catapult and crusader are much better as well, though I hate the missile tables.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/06/14 10:04 PM
24.114.41.142
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
what is it you want us to say? most ac 2's bite the big one? They are mainly for trying to crit units before they can get into firing range?
Honestly, I never really liked the original jagermech. ac 2's and 5's were not my thing. I prefer ppcs for main range weapons because you can potshot with them and not worry about running out of ammo.
The gauss rifle one makes them worth looking at again. I would rather use a rifleman over a jagermech any day.
The catapult and crusader are much better as well, though I hate the missile tables.
That's why I wasn't surprised at the lack of discussion lol.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/08/14 12:11 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Thunderbolt TDR-JM
Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 11,975,810 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,440
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
1 LRM-15 w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 ER Large Laser
1 Large Pulse Laser
3 Medium Pulse Lasers
1 Streak SRM-2
3 Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 LT, 2 LA, 5 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 260 7.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 12(24) 2.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 LA
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 30
Center Torso (rear) 11
L/R Torso 15 24
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 15 29
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER Large Laser RA 12 2 5.00
Machine Gun RA 0 1 0.50
2 Machine Guns LA 0 2 1.00
Streak SRM-2 RT 2 1 1.50
LRM-15 RT 5 3 7.00
Artemis IV FCS RT - 1 1.00
3 Medium Pulse Lasers LT 12 3 6.00
Large Pulse Laser CT 10 2 7.00
@MG (1/2) (100) LA - 1 0.50
@Streak SRM-2 (50) RT - 1 1.00
@LRM-15 (Artemis) (16) RT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 14
4 4 4 2 0 3 2 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1
DESIGN NOTES
This was beyond a doubt the toughest upgrade for me...I started about 5 or 6
times, only to scrap it and start over. What can I say, IMO, the original
TDR-5S was perfection for the 3025 period, and trying to improve on it while
maintaining the spirit and presence of the original
I started off with the obvious upgrades: Endo Steel, DHS, drop half of the MG
ammo, upgrade the Large Laser to ER, upgrade the SRM to a Streak, add Artemis
to the LRM. I also shifted the LRM ammo to the side torso (I don't like moving
things around on an Upgrade, but sometimes its necessary) and protected both
sides with CASE. I toyed with upgrading the LRM to a 20, adding additional
Heat Sinks, but nothing really seemed satisfactory; even worse, I kept running
into an embarrassing shortage of crit space which kept limiting my options.
Finally, I thought carefully about how I personally use the Thunderbolt most of
the time, and that gave me what I needed. A Large Pulse Laser to take over
from the ER at close range for a bit more damage at bit less heat. With only a
single item using up the available tonnage, I had enough space to squeeze on
Ferro Fibrous Armour, saving just enough to keep all my other modifications.
I still wasn't completely satisfied with the result...I probably would have
been if it had been anything other than the T-Bolt, but the heat balance made
me go back for a second look before finalizing and posting it. Reluctantly, I
dropped the FF for an XL Engine, just to see how it would turn out. Two
additional DHS, upgrade the Medium Lasers to Pulse to eat up tonnage without
using crits, and done.
As with the original, the key to getting the most out of this Thunderbolt is
Balance. At long range, the ERLL and the LRM work well together. At range 10,
the LPL can be added to the mix, as long as the heat is managed carefully. At
range 6, the set of Pulse Lasers provide both punch and accuracy, and the LPL's
location in the CT allow the 'Mech to punch without sacrificing the firepower
of its primary weapon. Not sure if the extra heat control is worth the
vulnerability of the XL Engine, but it definitely makes it more comfortable to
use.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/08/14 06:51 PM
66.27.181.155
|
suggestions..
maybe add a second streak.
a second lrm launcher and ammo
change over to ppc.
You may have to avoid es in the larger mechs. the crits will play a big part coming up.
I do like the medium pulse lasers. For some reason, I didn't like them on the thunderbolt. Probably because it overheats the mech in close range. I didn't like to let the large laser cool.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/08/14 07:42 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
suggestions..
maybe add a second streak.
Something I considered, but I was already pretty close to something else I already did but haven't posted yet. I probably would have gone with a larger Streak if they were available for the time period.
Quote:
a second lrm launcher and ammo
Also considered it. Considered the similarity to my Catapult. Considered the frightening amount of ammo already carried by this design. That was one of my many discarded attempts
Quote:
change over to ppc.
PPC? We don't need no stinkin' PPC!!!
Sorry, personal preference here...a T-Bolt has a Large Laser. Plus, I've found most PPC mods cause problems with the heat balance, and besides, I've always been successful brawling with a T-Bolt, and the LL is much better for that. Like I said, personal preference; I know a lot of people swear by their PPC mods. I just swear at them...
Quote:
You may have to avoid es in the larger mechs. the crits will play a big part coming up.
I do like the medium pulse lasers. For some reason, I didn't like them on the thunderbolt. Probably because it overheats the mech in close range. I didn't like to let the large laser cool.
I'll probably be skipping the XL Engine more than the ES where I can...those 6 crits make a big difference, and add so much risk. ES gets to be a problem mainly when the 'Mech uses lots of extra DHS...if I can be careful with heat balance, I can avoid that on most of the upcoming designs. Pretty sure I won't be able to ES the Awesome...
Something I did consider on the Thunderbolt though...drop the ES, keep the Standard MLs, add TSM. A Thunderbolt will always overheat if used to full potential; a TSM version provides a nasty surprise when it's time to get in close. Movement of 5/8, a 26-point kick or 2 13-point punches. Yummy.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/08/14 09:15 PM
66.27.181.155
|
wow. you mean you would punch with a tsm thuderbolt?
guess you might use the ppc with that one.
I haven't dealt too much with innersphere xl so losing a mech to the loss of a torso hasn't been that big with me. More then a few of the games I have played were use whatever was available and go at it. I can see where that is an issue.
with your tsm one, I would suggest dropping the streak. The pulse lasers in close range would be an enormous help. Also keep your heat up with them as well. You might have to pull a sink off line when not running to keep it there. The arm laser would be a poor choice if punching, and no matter what anyone says 2 chances to take the head off a mech, is definately worth avoiding a kick.
|
Karagin
04/08/14 10:32 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Well done, hard to really make any suggestion that you haven't already gone over.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/09/14 01:16 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The arm laser would be a poor choice if punching,
That's why I put the LPL in the torso...the ERLL won't be fired at close-range anyway.
Quote:
and no matter what anyone says 2 chances to take the head off a mech, is definately worth avoiding a kick.
Depends on what you're kicking. 11/36 chance of taking the head off, IF both punches hit. Kick has a better chance of hitting, plus a 100% chance of taking the leg of a lightly-armoured enemy if it hits. I'd puncch an Atlas, but I'd kick most Mediums.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/09/14 01:18 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Karagin writes:
Well done, hard to really make any suggestion that you haven't already gone over.
Thanks. Like I said, I put a lot of thought into this one.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/09/14 01:54 AM
66.27.181.155
|
11/36? I think you got the wrong tables there. A punch is 1 in 6 providing there is not terrain differences, like punching the legs being on a lower terrain.
Also with a warmed up tsm, you would remove the head of any mech with a 13 point punch. 9 armor and 3 internal.
Now some of the special armors might change that, but that is crap best left for other games.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/09/14 02:09 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
11/36? I think you got the wrong tables there. A punch is 1 in 6 providing there is not terrain differences, like punching the legs being on a lower terrain.
Also with a warmed up tsm, you would remove the head of any mech with a 13 point punch. 9 armor and 3 internal.
Now some of the special armors might change that, but that is crap best left for other games.
11/36 is the chance of hitting the head with At Least 1 of 2 punches, assuming both hit.
(1,6), (2,6), (3,6), (4,6), (5,6), (6,6), (6,5), (6,4), (6,3), (6,2), (6,1) out of 36 possible combinations of 2 hits. Works out to about 30.5%, a bit less than 1/3. Good deal, but if I'm facing a 'Mech with less than 26 total on each leg, Armour and Internal combined after considering existing damage, that kick removes the leg and (mostly) disables the 'Mech, regardless which leg gets hit. And kicks have a better To-Hit number than punches. I'd take the better chance of disabling over the smaller chance of eliminating.
OTOH, if the target has 24 Armour and 16 Internal in a leg, no damage, I'd probably punch...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/09/14 05:31 AM
66.27.181.155
|
24 armor, 16 internal?
Would think 10 armor with 16 internal if you are trying to remove the leg.
Any combination leading up to 26 points total.
I could see where a punch might not be a good idea, like a missile boat with a full load of ammo.
Still.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/09/14 11:20 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
24 armor, 16 internal?
Would think 10 armor with 16 internal if you are trying to remove the leg.
Any combination leading up to 26 points total.
That's what I said, or at least what I meant to say. 10 armour, 16 internal, I kick. 24 armour, 16 internal, I probably punch.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/12/14 11:08 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Archer ARC-JM
Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 13,108,473 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,484
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
5 Medium Lasers
12 LRM-5s
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 107 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 5 LA, 5 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 280 8.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 11(22) 1.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 216 13.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 34
Center Torso (rear) 9
L/R Torso 15 24
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 11 22
L/R Leg 15 30
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
2 LRM-5s RA 4 2 4.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
2 LRM-5s LA 4 2 4.00
4 LRM-5s RT 8 4 8.00
4 LRM-5s LT 8 4 8.00
2 (R) Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
Medium Laser HD 3 1 1.00
@LRM-5 (96) RT - 4 4.00
@LRM-5 (96) LT - 4 4.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 15
4 3 4 3 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, LRM 1/3/3, IF 3
DESIGN NOTES:
Took me a while to decide what to do with the Archer; this one is all about the
long-range firepower, so I didn't want to spend too much on the close-range
stuff. The obvious upgrade is using Endo Steel and DHS, adding Artemis IV and
CASE, which is decent I guess, but hardly dominating on the 3050 battlefield.
The risk of an XL Engine seemed minimal, as the Archer's place is on the edge
of the battle where it shouldn't be taking massive return fire, so saved an
additional 8 tons, but what should I do with them? I considered ECM, C3
Master, close range weapons, additional ammo. I also considered dropping the
Artemis to add an additional LRM launcher, but nothing seemed to work out
right.
I thought back to what I did with the Whitworth; with the improved heat control
of DHS, the Archer could swap the LRM racks for a mass of smaller launchers.
Using Endo Steel and XL Engine, I was able to replace each LRM 20 with 4 LRM
5s, add 2 additional LRM 5s in each arm, and double the ammo supply, bringing
it up to 16 shots per launcher. CASE in both sides of the torso, an extra
Medium Laser in the Head, one additional DHS, and max the Leg armour.
Average firepower is increased by 50%, heat control is not perfect but greatly
improved, and the large number of launchers allows for great flexibility in
terms of specialty ammo use.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/12/14 12:09 PM
24.30.142.80
|
someone wanted to have specialized ammo?
Definitely gives the archer more options. Also save some ammo trying to take out little units like jeeps.
Well the upgrade does make it a fire support mech.
Wall of missiles comes to mind.
The third forward firing laser is a nice addition.
The multiple launchers will help at shorter ranges as well. More to shoot, more likely to hit.
|
Retry
04/12/14 12:11 PM
72.214.204.166
|
Macross missile massacre to the max, this one.
|
Karagin
04/12/14 12:43 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Well designed and well laid out. You have given the mech a lot of options and the over all changes make it well worth the C-bills spent.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
04/13/14 10:34 PM
70.118.139.48
|
So the anticipation is killing me...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/13/14 10:50 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Karagin writes:
So the anticipation is killing me...
Grasshopper is next...back when you posted your upgrade, I whipped up a really nice version as well...and the didn't save it. Trying to redo it now. Although I'm pretty sure I used a TC on it, so it doesn't fit my timeline anyway...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/13/14 11:06 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Looking forward to it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
04/14/14 12:15 AM
24.30.142.80
|
make him wait another day and skip it 
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/14/14 11:48 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Grasshopper GHR-JM
Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 9,404,173 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,660
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 ER Large Lasers
4 Medium Lasers
2 LRM-5s
1 C3 Computer (Master)
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 107 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 6 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 280 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 4.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 13(26) 3.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 RT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 13
L/R Torso 15 20
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 11 22
L/R Leg 15 26
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
ER Large Laser RA 12 2 5.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
LRM-5 RT 2 1 2.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
C3 Computer (Master) LT 0 5 5.00
ER Large Laser CT 12 2 5.00
LRM-5 HD 2 1 2.00
@LRM-5 (24) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 6
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 17
4j 3 3 2 0 3 2 Structure: 6
Special Abilities: C3M, TAG, CASE, MHQ5, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
The Grasshopper: Bronze medal winner for Worst TRO:3025 Upgrade. Sure, the ER
Large Laser and the AMS are nice, but the rest of the modifications are a
distinct downgrade: drop the LRM and 2 of the MLs for a Streak SRM 2 and an
AMS? I'll stick with the original.
To make something nice out of a 'Mech like the Grasshopper, DHS are a must,
directly saving 11 tons. Endo Steel saves 3.5 more, leaving an astounding 14.5
tons to work with.
I first addressed the Grasshopper's relatively light long-range firepower by
adding a second ER Large Laser. Three additional DHS keep things cool. After
extensive thought, I decided to make the best use of the Grasshopper's mobility
by adding a C3 Master computer. With 2 tons left, I added a second LRM 5 to
fill out the long-range.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/14/14 06:20 PM
24.30.142.80
|
I like the c3 master. Finally something that has it.
I am surprised you went with dual lrm 5s instead of a single 10.
One suggestion might be with the c3 master, it would be more standoffish, so maybe drop a medium or two and add another lrm 5 launcher. Though that would be pushing the heat some for long range.
Another would be following same lines, but having the second erll in the other arm. I could see this unit behind things and need the extra firing arcs of the arm.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
04/14/14 07:48 PM
208.54.38.150
|
Well that two LRM-5 take a ton less, you have two chances to hit, you can fire off two types of special ammo at the same time, I can see a big advantage to have two LRM-5s over a LRM-10.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/14/14 08:25 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey writes:
Well that two LRM-5 take a ton less, you have two chances to hit, you can fire off two types of special ammo at the same time, I can see a big advantage to have two LRM-5s over a LRM-10.
The special ammo flexibility isn't an issue with only one ton of ammo on board. The second LRM was an afterthought, seemed like the most convenient way f using up 2 tons, since close-range heat was already tradeoff between the Medium and Large Lasers. I couldn't upgrade to an LRM 10 without moving it from its original location, and spending an extra ton as mentioned above.
Also, the two LRM 5s generate 1 more heat than a single LRM 10, but I can help moderate the heat by firing only 1.
Another possibility for this one, since it can easily run hot: I have exactly enough space for TSM; the Grasshopper, in my experience, isn't known as a brawler, but the speed boost could definitely come in handy.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
04/14/14 08:54 PM
24.30.142.80
|
I would advise against the brawler, unless you remove the master and add in a few short range things to cover for it since it does carry the master c3. Just a suggestion.
I like the extra lrm 5, and as I said, maybe add a third one. It would make it better for being the lance leader while supporting the unit.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/14/14 09:12 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I would advise against the brawler, unless you remove the master and add in a few short range things to cover for it since it does carry the master c3. Just a suggestion.
I like the extra lrm 5, and as I said, maybe add a third one. It would make it better for being the lance leader while supporting the unit.
My original plan for this one included a Targeting Computer, but since that's not available yet, I went with the C3 as an easy switch. With the C3 I kind od see it as the Command unit of a Garrison Lance or something like that...the Jump Jets make it ideal for that kind of work.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/14/14 09:36 PM
70.118.139.48
|
I like it, I can see it working with the one upgrade I came up with, making for a nice pairing. Well done!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
04/17/14 10:43 PM
70.118.139.48
|
So the Warhammer is next?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/17/14 10:49 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Karagin writes:
So the Warhammer is next?
Yup. Still working through a couple different ideas. The Orion is all ready to go, but you'll have to wait for that one
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/17/14 10:55 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Ok..
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
04/18/14 01:21 AM
24.30.142.80
|
ban kj for a week. He is purposefully trolling us with his constant teasing.
And karagin, are you going to let us in on your one little upgrade?
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/20/14 12:11 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Warhammer WHM-JM
Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 7,025,533 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,605
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 PPCs
1 SRM-6
2 Medium Pulse Lasers
2 Medium Lasers
2 Small Pulse Lasers
2 Machine Guns
2 Anti-Missile Systems
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 107 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 2 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: Fusion Engine 280 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 12(24) 2.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 192 12.00
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 9
L/R Torso 15 22
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 11 20
L/R Leg 15 22
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PPC RA 10 3 7.00
Medium Pulse Laser RA 4 1 2.00
PPC LA 10 3 7.00
Medium Pulse Laser LA 4 1 2.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
SRM-6 RT 4 2 3.00
Machine Gun RT 0 1 0.50
Small Pulse Laser RT 2 1 1.00
Anti-Missile System RT 1 1 0.50
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
Machine Gun LT 0 1 0.50
Small Pulse Laser LT 2 1 1.00
Anti-Missile System LT 1 1 0.50
@SRM-6 (15) RT - 1 1.00
@Anti-Missile System (12) RT - 1 1.00
@MG (1/2) (100) LT - 1 0.50
Free Critical Slots: 9
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 16
4 4 4 2 0 3 2 Structure: 6
Special Abilities: AMS, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES
I don't usually tinker with the Warhammer, as over the years I've seen dozens
of Whammy upgrades and modifications posted here.
The original Warhammer was a powerful presence at long range, and a nightmare
in close. The challenge is to maintain that dominance. However, difficulties
appear right away: how to upgrade the long-range. I thought about adding an
LRM, but it still didn't feel right for a Warhammer.
I played around with twin-ERPPCs, but the high heat output didn't leave enough
tonnage to do much more than improve the armour. However, using DHS and
keeping the standard PPCs left a lot more free tonnage, and still increased the
'Mech's effective firepower by allowing continuous fire of both PPCs while
running, which the original could not do.
Two tons went to armour, 1 ton to CASE, 2 tons for a pair of Anti-Missile
Systems. With defense taken care of, time to look at the close-range weapons.
Upgrade the Small Lasers to Pulse models, add a Medium Pulse Laser to each arm.
Better heat control, much better protection, and more devastating than ever at
close range.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/20/14 02:25 PM
70.118.139.48
|
When I did my upgrades for this mech I kept it simple FFA and DHS or EDS and DHS, it doesn't need much to make it even better. Like what you did a lot more then then 3050 one.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
04/20/14 09:04 PM
24.30.142.80
|
at first I was thinking the erppc would have been the route to go, but I guess it was a little light on armor. The problem with innerspher erppc is the lack of extra damage. So range is the only benefit for the extra heat and weight. Still nice against those lrm carriers.
The pulse lasers do help once the mech gets in range of them.
Only thing I can think of right now for a possible variant is fit a large laser on it at the expense of the smaller items. Granted it wouldn't be effective against infantry if you did that.
|
Retry
04/20/14 09:09 PM
76.7.236.208
|
The IS ERPPC and IS PPC are equal in weight, not counting heat sinks.
This warhammer feels more like a skirmisher than a PPC carrier sort of mech.
It's leg armor is a tad thin. I'd wonder if stripping some MLs for an ERPPC upgrade would make it more effective.
|
Karagin
04/20/14 09:11 PM
70.118.139.48
|
It doesn't need the ERPPCs to be effective, it has the ability to do more now then it would with the ERPPCs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
04/20/14 09:17 PM
76.7.236.208
|
I disagree.
|
Karagin
04/20/14 09:18 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Okay Retry what is it gaining by going to the ERPPCs over the standards that makes it so worthwhile for this design?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
04/20/14 09:21 PM
76.7.236.208
|
It would gain the ability to use it's primary weapons at near point blank, and with a couple extra heat sinks much of it's close range secondary weaponry can be downgraded or deleted.
|
Cray
04/20/14 09:24 PM
71.47.91.0
|
Quote:
Retry writes:
It would gain the ability to use it's primary weapons at near point blank, and with a couple extra heat sinks much of it's close range secondary weaponry can be downgraded or deleted.
Actually, some of those short-ranged weapons aren't bad. But ER PPCs are always nice because they give you options lacking in PPCs. PPCs do not have the option to shoot easily at 1-3 hexes; they cannot shoot at 19 to 23 hexes. ER PPCs can be combined easily with short ranged weapons at 1-3 hexes (if you want) and they can fire at 19 to 23 hexes (if you want).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
ghostrider
04/20/14 09:31 PM
24.30.142.80
|
since when can you not use ppcs at short range? Yes, they can't hit we at that range, but are still usable. There is a point where you must learn to use the weapons at the range they are meant for, not just alpha striking every round.
This may be part of the love of large pulse lasers.
|
Cray
04/20/14 09:38 PM
71.47.91.0
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
since when can you not use ppcs at short range? Yes, they can't hit we at that range, but are still usable.
Oh, you can. They just get a little more challenging. But that 5-point heat savings can sometime make their minimum range worth the trouble.
Quote:
There is a point where you must learn to use the weapons at the range they are meant for, not just alpha striking every round.
I know, I wrote the Warlord into canon, which cannot alpha strike without turning into a scorch mark on the map and a pair of foot actuators. It has a pair of heavy PPCs, which have the same range brackets as regular PPCs, and a bunch of medium lasers. You learn to manage heat and minimum ranges on that design. There's a published variant with ER PPCs that will still turn into a scorch mark if you alpha strike.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
04/20/14 09:54 PM
70.118.139.48
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I am just not seeing the trade off here, guys, I mean 30 heat is not something easy to shake off and given that while at a short range you lose a bit with the PPC but not that much, just not seeing the trade off. Sorry, but I think it works best keeping the original PPCs and going with the setup Kamikaze gave us.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
04/20/14 10:01 PM
71.47.91.0
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Sorry, but I think it works best keeping the original PPCs and going with the setup Kamikaze gave us.
I think you've sold me. With 24 heat capacity, you really can't mix in ER PPCs too easily with the short range weapons of KJ's design. You hinder yourself more than you'd gain with ER PPCs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Retry
04/20/14 10:07 PM
76.7.236.208
|
It is a re-design. There's not really anything stopping you from working around with it to add more DHS while removing some of the secondary array.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/20/14 10:37 PM
24.114.22.67
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Quote:
Retry writes:
It is a re-design. There's not really anything stopping you from working around with it to add more DHS while removing some of the secondary array.
With DHS, I will almost always take a single ERPPC over a single PPC. When you pair them up though, the heat output can limit the 'Mech in other ways. To properly operate 2 ERPPCs, you should have 16 DHS, so I could drop the MPLs, but then I have only 11 free crit spaces, requiring me to tinker with the configuration even more. And at range 1-4, I'd much rather have a pair of MPLs than an ERPPC. I can do much more damage with 15 heat worth of closr-range weapons.
An interesting compromise though, and possibly the best all-around: trade the MPLs for MLs, add 2 DHS, and upgrade one PPC to an ERPPC.
I'd happily take that against a dual-ERPPC version.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
04/20/14 10:39 PM
70.118.139.48
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Can't wait to see the next couple of your ideas given how much this one has drawn comments.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/20/14 10:42 PM
24.114.22.67
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Can't wait to see the next couple of your ideas given how much this one has drawn comments.
I'm prettu sure my Charger will create a fair amount of controversy. At least, that's the plan. **Rubs hands together while cackling gleefully**
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
04/20/14 10:42 PM
76.7.236.208
|
Hmm... if you dropped an additional AMS as well, you could get those 4 DHS on it as well... with the extra crit space, that is.
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ghostrider
04/21/14 01:50 AM
24.30.142.80
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I have had thoughts like retry that the big weapons are the best to fire all the time.
Much easier to punch thru armor locations with 10 points then having several lasers scatter across the mech.
More then a few games were won from concentrated fire on one location.
Good example is hitting all one side. Faster take down when you have more then half the chance of hitting the same side.
The big issue with this is once you lose an arm, or get within physical range and can't kick, losing the heavy heat weapons helps to avoid overheating to much.
On the other side, lots of weapons means lots of chances to hit in iffy combat situations as well as more chances for a crit. The machine gun mech shows that.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/21/14 02:34 AM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I have had thoughts like retry that the big weapons are the best to fire all the time.
Much easier to punch thru armor locations with 10 points then having several lasers scatter across the mech.
More then a few games were won from concentrated fire on one location.
Good example is hitting all one side. Faster take down when you have more then half the chance of hitting the same side.
The big issue with this is once you lose an arm, or get within physical range and can't kick, losing the heavy heat weapons helps to avoid overheating to much.
On the other side, lots of weapons means lots of chances to hit in iffy combat situations as well as more chances for a crit. The machine gun mech shows that.
It comes down to tradeoffs. Unless ammo supply is a concern, you fire a Gauss Rifle any time you have a target number less than 13, because there's no better way to spend 1 heat. A PPC is good to fire any time as well, but once you get in close, SRMs and MLs are much more efficient. A Streak SRM 6 does 12 damage for 4 heat...doesn't get much better than that. For the same heat as an ERPPC, you get 5 Medium Lasers, for a potential 25 damage. Even at range 4-6, that's your better option; To-Hit of 9 for the 5 lasers will average higher damage than an ERPPC at 7. Plus, in theory at least, the PPCs, Gauss Rifles, Large Lasers, and LRMs have worn down the armour, making the scatter shots much more dangerous than the big hits.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
04/21/14 05:58 AM
24.30.142.80
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Playing the game when it came out had alot of ideas burned into the brain.
It is taking time, since a lack of playing after the clans, to get some concepts out of the mind.
Also, die rolls play a big part. I have done the 10 mls on a custom mech and only hit with 2, while having only 2 ppcs on another hitting with both almost constantly play a part on how I think. Min/max doesn't really make the game fun. Winning is great, but how boring does it get taking an awesome against a lance of urban mechs in the open?
I dislike missiles because of the spread tables. Bad luck. I admit that.
I've had streaks on mechs and never locked with them in a battle. 6+ rolls at times. Just bad luck. When I use some things, I seem to have better luck. Doesn't mean its better, just coincidence.
I've fallen more then a few times on a 3+ doing kicks. Then have the damn mech not be able to stand up again. Just luck.
I also found that when you do a head hit, it is best to take it off in one shot. The ppc atleast goes critical.
I have had bad luck with sanding off armor, which is why I don't like the lbx cannons. Granted when you hit, you get a good chance with getting a critical, but again, bad luck with the spread tables. It is why I like the ac 20. There is not rationale to it, except the luck of the dice.
I do understand the more efficient. It is just trying to get out of a rut that was taught playing the game with some people. The only tactic being destroy the enemy. You will get a new mech if you lose this one. We were having fun. No tactics, no jumping around to avoid being hit, no light mechs or even mediums.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/23/14 08:33 PM
50.72.218.68
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Marauder MAD-JM
Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 15,753,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,719
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 ER PPCs
1 LB 10-X AC
4 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 114 points 7.50
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 17(34) 7.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 1 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 216 13.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 35
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 16 24
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 12 24
L/R Leg 16 25
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
ER PPC RA 15 3 7.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
ER PPC LA 15 3 7.00
LB 10-X AC RT 2 6 11.00
2 Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10) LT - 1 1.00
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 9
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 17
4 4 4 3 0 3 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, FLK 1/1/1
DESIGN NOTES
I've never really been a fan of the Marauder, mainly because of its heat
problems, light leg armour, and limited close-range weapons. The TRO:3050
variant solved a lot with DHS and by replacing the AC/5 with a Large Pusle
Laser, but for some reason I just didn't like the feel of it, at least not as a
Marauder.
A basic upgrade of a Marauder is pretty obvious: Save 3.5 tons with Endo Steel,
upgrade the PPCs, upgrade the AC/5 to a UAC/5, add a second ton of ammo,
protect with CASE, upgrade to DHS, and use the remaining ton for more armour or
an additional DHS. Not bad.
I felt I could do better though. Using an XL Engine rather than Endo Steel
saves 6 additional tons. Upgrade to a LB 10-X AC, add 2 more Medium Lasers, 1
more DHS, and another ton of armour. More durable, more versatile at all
ranges, and even able to maintain fire with one PPC along with all the
short-range weapons without building up heat. Well worth the increased risk
(and cost) with the XL Engine.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
04/23/14 09:32 PM
76.7.236.208
|
I must question the benefit the medium lasers provide. It's primary weapon systems can deliver 30 points of damage at point blank at ease, and can do so without overheating at all, even while running. Adding medium lasers to the combo provides little benefit unless you fire only one PPC, but even then the benefit isn't spectacular. If the crits allow it, 2 DHS and 2 MLs would allow everything to be fired at once with no loss in damage at close range.
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Karagin
04/23/14 09:50 PM
70.118.139.48
|
It has a nice feel of what the original had and you did go a long way to fixing some of the issues you listed. I like the idea of the close in weapons which allows you to keep the bigger guns for much of a ranged fight.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
04/23/14 10:04 PM
76.7.236.208
|
Alternatively, another great option would be to change the lasers to small pulses. It loses minimal firepower at close while becoming a conventional infantry mauler.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/23/14 10:16 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Retry writes:
I must question the benefit the medium lasers provide. It's primary weapon systems can deliver 30 points of damage at point blank at ease, and can do so without overheating at all, even while running. Adding medium lasers to the combo provides little benefit unless you fire only one PPC, but even then the benefit isn't spectacular. If the crits allow it, 2 DHS and 2 MLs would allow everything to be fired at once with no loss in damage at close range.
First, arm-mounted Primary weapons are the most vulnerable; a few hits deciding to find the same arm can destroy or cripple a PPC fairly early on...if you play with Floating Crits, your odds increase. A single critical hit can costyou half your firepower.
Second, 4 MLs give you more location rolls than 2 MLs and a PPC...only a diffence of 1 hit (same total damage), but still better odds of scoring a crit that changes the outcome of the battle...2 PPCs when the armiyr is intact, 4 MLs once gaps appear.
Third, having lower-heat options is nice in the event of destroyed Heat Sinks or Engine hits.
Fourth, better Alpha Strike should you be pushed to that point: you have the potential to deliver more "last chance" damage if you don't expect to kuve to see another volley. Perhaps more importantly, your enemies know how powerful your Alpha Strike can be, and they might step more carefully (to your benefit).
Finally...persona preference. Given the same damage potential, I'd rather have more weapons (and therefore more options).
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
04/24/14 01:35 AM
24.30.142.80
|
I like the marauder look. some of the heat issues were bad, but for the time it was designed, it worked. Like the warhammer,.
Double heat sinks have made a lot of designs more playable, even without the rest of the high end tech.
The addition of 2 more mls is definitely a good idea. as well as upgrading the cannon to something other then the ultra 5,
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KamikazeJohnson
04/24/14 01:46 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I like the marauder look. some of the heat issues were bad, but for the time it was designed, it worked. Like the warhammer,.
Double heat sinks have made a lot of designs more playable, even without the rest of the high end tech.
The addition of 2 more mls is definitely a good idea. as well as upgrading the cannon to something other then the ultra 5,
Oddly enough, the more I play around with these modifications, the more I like the UAC/5 in comparison to the LB 10-X (except for that pesky jamming issue...) I had considered using a Gauss Rifle on this one, but that would have required dropping the MLs and 2 DHS, which would mean 1 point overheat plus movement. While I don't always insist on full heat control, I do prefer it for a 'Mech's primary weapons, particularly long-range. The Marauder has 3 primary weapons, and should be able to sustain fire of all 3 without overheat, while walking if not running, so the tonnage saved with the LB comes in handy. Besides, the LB provides some much-needed scatter damage once there are armour gaps to exploit.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
04/24/14 01:57 AM
24.30.142.80
|
The ultra 5 is ok, but was never a real fan of the 5 series.
Nice to see you have a variant planned with the gauss. That one might have been a good idea to go with, and honestly, mechs do not always need full armor load. With dropping the other things, you may have been able to use your endosteel or maybe ferrous fibre.
The range and damage of the gauss would open those gaps and possibly not need to exploit them next round by doing the damage this round.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/24/14 02:14 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The ultra 5 is ok, but was never a real fan of the 5 series.
Nice to see you have a variant planned with the gauss. That one might have been a good idea to go with, and honestly, mechs do not always need full armor load. With dropping the other things, you may have been able to use your endosteel or maybe ferrous fibre.
The range and damage of the gauss would open those gaps and possibly not need to exploit them next round by doing the damage this round.
Marauder MAD-JM
Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 15,776,250 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,940
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
1 Gauss Rifle
2 ER PPCs
2 Medium Pulse Lasers
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 114 points 4.00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 LT, 1 RT, 5 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 15(30) 5.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 1 RA
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 35
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 16 23
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 12 23
L/R Leg 16 23
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
ER PPC RA 15 3 7.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
ER PPC LA 15 3 7.00
Gauss Rifle RT 1 7 15.00
2 Medium Pulse Lasers CT 8 2 4.00
@Gauss Rifle (16) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 19
4 4 5 3 0 3 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
You're right...I was able to squeeze on Endo Steel, which saved enough for me to not only keep all four MLs but to upgrade two of them to MPLs, at the cost of half a ton of armour. Didn't have the crit space to keep all the DHS, which is unfortunate.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
04/24/14 03:25 AM
172.56.6.212
|
On my Marauder I went with movement of 5/8 armed it with a gauss rifle with three tons of ammo two ER large lasers and a rear firing medium laser
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
04/24/14 04:10 AM
24.30.142.80
|
nice kj. Might have to miss firing a ppc once every 3 rounds or so.
Now the big question is the case. Do they still take a crit? not sure if the rifle is worth using the case. maybe half ton of gauss ammo for it....
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Maurer
04/26/14 04:59 AM
98.154.219.23
|
I like this marauder variant, especially with the cluster ammo hitting armor breached by the ppcs. I would do two medium pulse lasers instead of 4 medium and drop 2 heatsinks for two mgs plus half ton of ammo and half ton of armor to reign in the minmaxness while adding variety.
"Captain! We're completely surrounded on all sides." - Kiff, Futurama
..."Excellent, then we may attack in any direction." - Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
"A fool fights a war on two fronts; only an idiot defends on one." - Fusilier
Edited by Maurer (04/26/14 08:12 AM)
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KamikazeJohnson
04/26/14 01:06 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Maurer writes:
I like this marauder variant, especially with the cluster ammo hitting armor breached by the ppcs. I would do two medium pulse lasers instead of 4 medium and drop 2 heatsinks for two mgs plus half ton of ammo and half ton of armor to reign in the minmaxness while adding variety.
Interesting suggestions...I'd absolutely hang on to 16 DHS, to be able to stand and fire the primaries, but dropping the 17th and a half ton of armour for a pair of MGs is worthwhile. 2 MPLs vs 4 MLs is tough to justify, although I might trade the ML pair in the CT for a single Pulse to give some variety.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/26/14 01:13 PM
70.118.139.48
|
What about going for an AMS or C3?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/26/14 01:34 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Karagin writes:
What about going for an AMS or C3?
C3 or TAG can be substituted for a Medium Laser on pretty much any design. AMS instead of the MGs could be a definite asset.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/26/14 01:43 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Orion ON1-JM
Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 15,512,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,860
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
1 Gauss Rifle
1 LRM-15 w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 ER Large Laser
3 Medium Lasers
2 Streak SRM-2s
2 Small Pulse Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 114 points 4.00
Internal Locations: 4 LA, 6 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 224 14.00
CASE Locations: 1 LT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 36
Center Torso (rear) 9
L/R Torso 16 22
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 12 21
L/R Leg 16 32
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
Small Pulse Laser RA 2 1 1.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
ER Large Laser LA 12 2 5.00
Small Pulse Laser LA 2 1 1.00
Gauss Rifle RT 1 7 15.00
LRM-15 LT 5 3 7.00
Artemis IV FCS LT - 1 1.00
Streak SRM-2 LT 2 1 1.50
(R) Medium Laser CT 3 1 1.00
Streak SRM-2 CT 2 1 1.50
@Gauss Rifle (16) RT - 2 2.00
@LRM-15 (16) LT - 2 2.00
@Streak SRM-2 (50) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 1
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 19
4 4 4 3 0 3 2 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1
DESIGN NOTES
Another of my personal favourites; I was quite disappointed to see the
extremely mediocre treatment it got in the TRO:3050. The XL Engine was nice,
but squandering the bulk of the savings on a Narc Beacon (which has limited
usefulness for your own LRMs) and on a questionable LRM upgrade, was a let-down.
I started with the original TRO:3025 version, dropping the illegal extra 1/2
ton of SRM Ammo and using Endo Steel and using Doube Heat Sinks. The result?
Enough tonnage to add CASE to both side torsos and upgrade the AC/10 to a
massive Gauss Rifle. While that was a nice improvement to the 'Mech's
long-range capabilities, it still leaves the Orion with severe ammo-dependency
at long-range, and no significant short-range weapon.
I tried on an XL engine to see if it would be worth the extra vulnerability.
Drop the RT CASE, replace the SRM with a pair of Streak SRM 2s, add Artemis FCS
to to the LRM, mount a Small Pulse Laser for anti-Infantry work in each arm, a
rear-facing ML in the torso, and a versatile ER Large Laser in the arm. The
increase in both total firepower and overall versatility is dramatic. The
Gauss Rifle sharing a torso with an XL Engine makes me rather uncomfortable,
but otherwise I think it's a powerful upgrade.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/26/14 01:52 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Okay I will take 100 of these with 200 more for the next batch. I like this one, you gave it teeth and and allowed it to play with the others in the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/26/14 02:20 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Karagin writes:
Okay I will take 100 of these with 200 more for the next batch. I like this one, you gave it teeth and and allowed it to play with the others in the game.
Thought you'd like it. One of the first upgrades that came together, I hated having to wait this long to post it.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
04/26/14 02:24 PM
70.118.139.48
|
All of your upgrades have been point on in that they make sense, by that I mean you didn't just swap out things and call it good. You put effort into them. That is something that many of the TRO3050 mechs for the Inner Sphere lacked.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
04/26/14 02:45 PM
24.30.142.80
|
the only reason for the 3050 tro was to make money.
Actually, if done right, the developers had an idea of how much of what product was available. Endo steel was not supposed to be this common. Also, I would think they were trying to dumb down the innersphere so the clan mechs seemed that much more impressive.
The orion was never that impressive for me. Maybe it was because it was an ammo dependent mech compared to the marauder and warhammers.
They upgrades are good ones. Does alot to change my opinion of the mech.
|
KamikazeJohnson
04/26/14 03:36 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
the only reason for the 3050 tro was to make money.
Actually, if done right, the developers had an idea of how much of what product was available. Endo steel was not supposed to be this common. Also, I would think they were trying to dumb down the innersphere so the clan mechs seemed that much more impressive.
The orion was never that impressive for me. Maybe it was because it was an ammo dependent mech compared to the marauder and warhammers.
They upgrades are good ones. Does alot to change my opinion of the mech.
I believe I summarized my thoughts on the TRO:3050 in the original post for this project. I have issues with the "scarce materials" argument, considering the population and industrial base available. I can accept limited facilities to assemble the final product, but components should be available in whatever quantity the buyer can afford.
In any case, a new TRO should people excited about the game, rather than disappoint them with missed opportunities...every player wants to open the book and see their favourite turned into an Unstoppable Death Machine; finding out all they did was trade the MGs for an AMS is frustrating, and reduces the enjoyment of playing in that era.
At the very least, the primary TRO entry for each 'Mech should be the exciting, full-featured version, with limited-tech and field refits listed in the fluff, and possibly used in the scenario packs.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
04/27/14 05:58 AM
24.30.142.80
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Oh, I agree about the bs on the scarcity of materials and factories. They should have more things that would have driven down costs. Something as important as this should have had several most factories built/repaired.
And I agree with the tros should be something to make people want to keep buying the products, not make them feel like they wasted their money. Not everyone that plays is a highly paid programmer, or engineer, or retired military.
Buying mechwarrior 3 roleplaying book and seeing they were already making mechwarrior 4 roleplaying book finally made me say enough. The super characters in the scenario packs along with in the book, but yet there is no way in hell, according to their rules, could they do that. So just like some of the older rpgs, you find something else to play.
That is another reason people tend to leave games. When they change some of the rules with the next addition. Ams it a good one. First verions killed missles out of the ones that HIT the mech. Now it reduces the volley before you know what does hit the mech. Another is the infantry. Now battle armor is bugging me. Why not turn them into the main fighting units and get it over with.
But we are moving away from the mechs upgrades.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/27/14 12:32 PM
50.72.218.68
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That wraps up the Heavy category. One thing that has surprised me so far is the number of XL Engines I used...it was not my intention at the beginning to XL everything in sight, but for some it just made sense, based on the 'Mech's intended role, and others simply needed it in order to cirrect all their weak points. Finally, some were decent upgrades without it, but were short just a couple tons of an upgrade that was just begging to be used.
One thing that was clear: it's easier to build a nice, balanced advanced-tech machine from scratch than it is to uograde an old one to the same level. And oddly enough, some of the more embarrassing 3025 'Mechs became more impressive than the early era's most respected models. I was also surprised by how few designs use an AC/10...
What's next? Assault 'Mechs of course. Since FASA originally tried to make everything move 4/6, expect a lot more unfortunate XL Engines, since my list of limitations forbids me to downgrade speed.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
04/27/14 12:40 PM
70.118.139.48
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Looking forward to them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/27/14 06:01 PM
24.30.142.80
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Think of it this way kj. A ppc or even a large laser has so many benefits over the ac 10. Main thing is a lack of ammo. For a light mech or even a medium, the less heat produced by the ac 10 made it worth while. Now with the larger mechs, they can hold more heat sinks because of the extra weight.
I don't mind the xl engines. Yeah they cost more, but the weight savings as well as the crit savings will make them more likely. You will probably run out of crits alot faster now with the big boys. I would say make a thread of upgrades that changes the speed for an efficient killing machine.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/27/14 06:59 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Think of it this way kj. A ppc or even a large laser has so many benefits over the ac 10. Main thing is a lack of ammo. For a light mech or even a medium, the less heat produced by the ac 10 made it worth while. Now with the larger mechs, they can hold more heat sinks because of the extra weight.
I don't mind the xl engines. Yeah they cost more, but the weight savings as well as the crit savings will make them more likely. You will probably run out of crits alot faster now with the big boys. I would say make a thread of upgrades that changes the speed for an efficient killing machine.
I'm not saying the AC/10 is a fantastic weapon that should be used more, but considering the abundance of AC/5s, even when a PPC would serve better, I'm surprised that FASA didn't use it more.
The biggest problem with the IS XL Engine is that loss of a side torso = dead 'Mech. So even with CASE, an ammo explosion is still a death sentence. Gives the big slow machines a lot less durability, so you have to make sure tge advantages are enough to compensate. In the case of the Charger, Banshee, and Cyclops, the answer is a definite YES. In the case of the Victir or Zeus...possibly not.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
04/27/14 07:04 PM
24.30.142.80
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I think one of the designers loved the ac 5. that might be why they have an overabundence of them. Part of it might go back to the original box set when it was the ONLY ac availble.
Even with the vulnerability of losing the side torso and the engine, I would think the extra weight saved by the engine is used to help prevent that. Then again, if you use the snake eyes hit on the table, it is possible that nothing you do will prevent the mech from dieing.
And once you lose your armor on the torsos, you should be trying to leave the battle anyways, so using the armor is the same thing like weapons.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/27/14 07:24 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I think one of the designers loved the ac 5. that might be why they have an overabundence of them. Part of it might go back to the original box set when it was the ONLY ac availble.
Even with the vulnerability of losing the side torso and the engine, I would think the extra weight saved by the engine is used to help prevent that. Then again, if you use the snake eyes hit on the table, it is possible that nothing you do will prevent the mech from dieing.
And once you lose your armor on the torsos, you should be trying to leave the battle anyways, so using the armor is the same thing like weapons.
Agree about the source of some of the AC/5 'Mechs. Still...more AC/20 'Mechs than AC/10 'Mechs. Especially among the Assaults I would have expected more.
If you want a good overview of how XL Mechs fare vs non-XL 'Mechs, reread my 2nd Design Challenge. If both are designed well, they tend to be quite evenly matched.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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