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03/30/14 02:39 PM
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Manticore Heavy Tank IIC Clan experimental 60 tons BV: 1,795 Cost: 8,753,600 C-bills Source: Hell's Horses
Movement: 4/6 (Tracked) Engine: 240 XL
Internal: 30 Armor: 249 (Ferro-Fibrous) Internal Armor Front 6 70 Right 6 45 Left 6 45 Rear 6 32 Turret 6 57
Weapons Loc Heat ER PPC TU 15 Streak SRM 6 TU 4 LRM 20 TU 6 AP Gauss Rifle FR 1
Ammo Loc Shots Streak SRM 6 Ammo BD 15 LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 6 LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 6 LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 6 AP Gauss Rifle Ammo BD 40
Equipment Loc Artemis IV FCS TU Armored Chassis BD ECM Suite BD
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Karagin
03/30/14 03:25 PM
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So why would the Clans refit or scratch build this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 03:28 PM
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Hell's Horses does quite a bit of combined arms warfare. The Manticore is an excellent design by IS standards, and it would only make sense to upgrade this to clan-spec for their use.
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ghostrider
03/30/14 03:47 PM
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just curious, but why not put the ap gauss in the turret? Yes, it makes it more likely to lose all your weapons when it gets stuck or taken out. But the wider firing arc would be better..
I have always liked the manticore. I can see them using it, but the armored chasis is the main thing I would question.
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03/30/14 03:54 PM
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The AP Gauss Rifle replaces the medium laser, which was located in the front. This Manticore is a relatively simple refitting of weaponry, so the weapons get upgraded but nothing super new is installed.
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Karagin
03/30/14 05:56 PM
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Why would they? They have better tanks and such of their own, they would have no need to revamp an IS vehicle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 06:06 PM
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They have... better... tanks?
We are definitely not playing the same game then.
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Karagin
03/30/14 06:26 PM
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The Clans do have better vehicles then the Inner Sphere, they chose not to use them the same way as the Inner Sphere does. Think about it, Clan tech allows a vehicle to carry far more items and thus able to do more. So again why would the Horses or any Clan need to use IS vehicles when they have their own and have the ability to make new ones.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 06:34 PM
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Yes, clan tech does allow a vehicle to carry far more items and able to do more.(See my "Why the Clans Shouldn't Be Allowed To Make Weapon Carriers" thread)
What do they manage to do with this super advanced technology of theirs?
They come up with crap like the Ares Medium Tank, whose armor cannot withstand an AC/20 shell, a strange combination of LRM10s and 15s, which are for some reason mounted on the front, and whose speeds only matches the Mad Cat(without the enhanced mobility of one at that).
Anything the clans come up with vee wise that is anywhere close to decent(Donar) are few and far between.
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Karagin
03/30/14 06:51 PM
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So your answer is to revamp an IS design? Why not fix their existing ones or better still build new ones?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 07:03 PM
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Why fix some PoS when you can take an actual successful design and upgrade it?
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Karagin
03/30/14 07:28 PM
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It is not something the Horses would do. They would build new vehicles, or use the existing ones. You can fix or revamp the existing ones which would be done far more readily then building a new one or revamping an IS design.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 07:48 PM
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There's not exactly a shortage of Manticores in the galaxy.
Also, Axel IIC. There's your counterarguement.
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Karagin
03/30/14 07:50 PM
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Where is the canon Axel IIC found Retry? And while the Inner Sphere would have no shortage of Manticores, the Clans would not be so quick to use IS tech when they have better items and could build their own vehicles.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 07:55 PM
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Axel IIC (Standard) Created during the Jihad, this version of the Axel uses a Fusion Engine to reach a top speed of 64km/h. The weaponry has been completely replaced with Clan equipment. The weapons include an AP Gauss Rifle, Large Pulse Laser, and two LRM-15 missile launchers equipped with Artemis IV fire control systems. The tank is protected by an ECM Suite, CASE and eleven and a half tons of Ferro-Fibrous armor. BV (2.0) = 1,612
It's in the sarna.net wiki itself. And there are citations in it.
That's great, but no IS tech is being used other than the Manticore Frame(And even then, nothing says the Clans wouldn't modify it for themselves). The weaponry, the armor, the engine are all clan-made.
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Karagin
03/30/14 08:01 PM
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Which book Retry? The Wiki is an open source site, that means you have to fully trust the info is being put in correctly to start with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 08:06 PM
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Search the citations.
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Karagin
03/30/14 08:12 PM
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Sorry but not going to, you are making the claim, not me, so you need to back it up.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 08:16 PM
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TRO:3058U.
Now back up your claims.
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Karagin
03/30/14 08:18 PM
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That the Clans would make their own vehicle? Sure thing, look at any of the TROs they show only Clan made vehicles, not IS frames refitted.
And you are still not correcting the short coming of the missing heat sinks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 08:21 PM
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No, the claim where you said the clans wouldn't use IS vees as a base for their own. You know, like the Axel IIC that shouldn't apparently exist because the clanners wouldn't make IICs of vees?
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Karagin
03/30/14 08:27 PM
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The Axel IIC is it a front line unit or one used by FRR units?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 08:30 PM
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What? How is that relevant at all.
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Karagin
03/30/14 08:34 PM
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It is relevant in that if it is used by the front line troops then it's being supported and new ones built, if it is not then it's something given to the FRR units as gift to show that the GB Clan supports them at least to a point. And again it would make far more sense to build a new vehicle then to import IS made frames to build something else. Now is this a vehicle found in your "alternate" universe?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 08:53 PM
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No, it's not of my alternate universe. I like Manticores, so I made a Clan one.
And you haven't quite proven anything, you've just piled on claims with more claims.
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Karagin
03/30/14 09:00 PM
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Also you would gain more with the Large Pulse Laser over the ER PPC, gaining back 5 tons that could be put to better use like upgrading the ARTIV to an ARTV or adding in extra Anti-infantry weapons.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/30/14 09:38 PM
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You haven't proven why they would make one.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 09:43 PM
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You haven't proven why they wouldn't.
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Karagin
03/30/14 09:46 PM
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I have, they have their own vehicles, which to their way of thinking are better then anything the IS makes. Also given how they, the Clans, look down on vehicles, they would not waste the resources on them unless they gain something and the Axel IIC is a token vehicle to show that the IS-population of the Dominion is being welcomed into the fold so to speak, it is not a rule of thumb or even a sign of things changing. So again please show where the Clans would stop making their own vehicles and start out fitting IS made frames....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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03/30/14 09:48 PM
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Since when would they be IS made? The Clans are fully capable of making a Manticore frame.
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