Retry
05/12/14 12:24 AM
76.7.236.208
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You ought to try the reverse as well and see where it gets you. Nthen try human v human. AI is not intelligent enough to make full use of range brackets.
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LegatusDavoke
05/12/14 12:34 AM
99.101.200.202
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I dunno...they're usually pretty good with a bit of tinkering about ranges.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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TigerShark
05/12/14 02:24 AM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
What is it that you are referring to? That for an extra 10 heat you gain no minimum range and a bit longer range but no increase in damage? Yeah not seeing that as any kind of improvement versus staying, like I chose too, with standard PPCs and going with Endo and DHS, which again allow for a better over performance of the mech vs tossing in the higher heat ERPPCs which do nothing really to improve the ability of the mech over all. So what was your point again?
I don't think you have the experience to really say. From the sound of it, you've just never been in the situations where that would be helpful.
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Karagin
05/12/14 06:10 AM
70.118.139.48
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Really Tigershark? Wow.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/12/14 06:38 AM
24.30.128.169
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didn't the badgering get you warned about trolling?
Yes the extra range is nice, but as with everything, I seriously doubt you will have open terrain that you can keep at a distance. Remember, unless you turn around to keep moving, the enemy will make up enough distance to start firing back.
IE... you walk backwards at 4 while they run forward at 6. That's 2 spaces per round. Now with an over heat, you drop to 3/5 quickly.
I know you want to stay true to the design, but maybe removing the srm for other weapons means no ammo and more wieght for something else. It would cover the use of the endo steel and then some.
Another possibility would be using mgs instead of the sls.
The warhammers aren't covered by the ecm carriers you tend to run with them....
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Karagin
05/12/14 06:48 AM
70.118.139.48
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And comments like Tigershark's are nothing but flame bait so I guess if others can keep breaking or bending the rules then maybe Cray will do his job and go after them as much as he does with my comments.
As for the rest, as you said terrain will play a part in what happens and the idea that the heat issue of the other mech with ERPPCs will hurt it far more then using the standard PPCs with NO major heat issue. And yes I do want to keep it on track with the original other wise I would have renamed it call it something else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rotwang
05/12/14 06:56 AM
81.165.120.251
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I always felt the PPC remained an effective, if no particularly spectacular weapon compared to Gauss Rifles, HAGS etc. The ER PPC version may offer only a 3-hex advantage, but in 2750 or 3050 where many opponents still had lots of weapons that didn't shoot beyond 15 hexes, the extra range was a significant advantage. Post Clans the advantage is negligible since a much larger proportion of mechs has at least a few longer ranged weapons. Even the new toys like the Heavy PPC are a cop out. For a pair of HPPC's and an extra ton, you can install 3 PPC's, same range, same damage and heat ... The Light PPC offers better odds, for 3PPC's you can have 6 LPPC's for only 18 tons vs 21. Still saves 2 over the HPPC duo. The only advantage for the HPPC is that it's a headcapper, the PPC can score a kill, but only if you get a series of good rolls.
I like these kinds of upgrades, you can build mechs with 3050 tech and 3025 weapons that are brutal in a fight with vanilla 3025 machines. They may not have the extra range or the punch of weapons like the Gauss Rifle, but just look at the extra firepower you can add to an Atlas by simply switching the heat sinks to double ones. Ten extra tons to play with. Add a PPC, CASE, Artemis IV and extra ammo for the LRM and things start to look bleak for the other guys.
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LegatusDavoke
05/12/14 08:20 AM
99.101.200.202
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And from my field tests so far, the heat dissapation Karagin is bragging about made a massive difference when things got ugly. Like he said, this mech can fire till the cows come home.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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Retry
05/12/14 09:54 AM
72.214.204.166
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I still would like to 1v1 you.
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Retry
05/12/14 11:56 AM
72.214.204.166
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Karagin, refuting his four points for the ERPPC would have made a stronger case...
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TigerShark
05/12/14 01:41 PM
68.190.197.104
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PPCs on this design will work. Really depends on the era being played, the map size and your army composition. If you're just playing 'Mech vs. 'Mech, then the design is going to perform well under that circumstance. But may not play the same with 4 - 12 units on the map.
Edited by TigerShark (05/12/14 01:44 PM)
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Retry
05/12/14 01:49 PM
72.214.204.166
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I never said it wouldn't, but saying the design is immensely better with standards instead of ERPPCs is simply not true.
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LegatusDavoke
05/12/14 05:08 PM
99.101.200.202
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I played a 4v4 TigerShark, it would be accurate to say that Karagin's model wiped the floor with the ERPPC variant.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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KamikazeJohnson
05/12/14 05:28 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
LegatusDavoke writes:
I played a 4v4 TigerShark, it would be accurate to say that Karagin's model wiped the floor with the ERPPC variant.
In a dual (or Clone War) Karagin's better heat management and superior close-range firepower wins the day. Replace one stock Whammy in a mixed lance, and the long-range versatility of the ERPPCs may be more effective, depending on terrain, mission objective, pilot skills, and the other 'Mechs.
In a "total effectiveness" analysis, I think the ERPPC will usually win, but I like the design approach Karagin is using, to not always use exclusively advancef versions just because they're available.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
05/12/14 07:11 PM
76.7.236.208
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I optimized the Warhammer. This time instead of trying to cram more heat sinks in, I gave it two distinct range brackets. It's main weaponry are more capable of the fire-support role, yet you don't want to get close to "Sparkles" either. It even includes an anti-infantry array, though it's a bit small.
----
Warhammer WHM-6DDc "Sparkles"
IS TW non-box set
70 tons
BV: 1,771
Cost: 6,983,034 C-bills
Movement: 4/6
Engine: 280
Double Heat Sinks: 17 [34]
Gyro: Standard Gyro
Internal: 107 (Endo-Steel)
Armor: 216/217
Internal Armor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 34
Center Torso (rear) 9
Right Torso 15 22
Right Torso (rear) 8
Left Torso 15 22
Left Torso (rear) 8
Right Arm 11 22
Left Arm 11 22
Right Leg 15 30
Left Leg 15 30
Weapons Loc Heat
Medium Laser LT 3
Medium Laser RT 3
ER PPC LA 15
ER PPC RA 15
Medium Laser RT 3
Medium Laser CT 3
Medium Laser LT 3
Medium Laser RT 3
Medium Laser LT 3
Medium Laser CT 3
Small Pulse Laser LT 2
Small Pulse Laser RT 2
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Cray
05/12/14 07:33 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
TigerShark writes:
The ER PPC is definitely worth it. The damage doesn't increase, but there are minute differences that can help you survive in a pitched battle:
(a) You out-range your enemy's LRMs. If they happen to have partial cover or woods, you can stay an additional 2 hexes back and force them out of their own cover. With a PPC, you need to approach an entrenched enemy.
(b) The bigger range brackets can mean you're in your short/medium while they're in their medium/long, giving them a TN (2) over your own. "Not being hit" is just as important as adding armor to a unit.
(c) If and when you interact with Clan units, you aren't constantly running around like an idiot trying to get a shot off. You might miss, but at least you have a chance. With a standard PPC, you have a few rounds of getting slapped around before returning fire.
(d) No minimum range. If you get in trouble and need to alpha strike with an enemy in kicking distance, the ER PPC is going to be handy in a pinch where the PPC probably won't hit (unless you're using Field Inhibitor Disengage rules).
And that is an coherently, well-stated summary of why I like ER PPCs on 'Mechs most of the time. PPCs have their niche applications and are nice on vehicles, but for 'Mechs I usually try to get in ER PPCs.
In the case of KamikazeJohnson's Warhammer, I'd also like ER PPCs for those reasons. 34 heat capacity is enough to make good use of ER PPCs at longer ranges since you're not burdened with the heat output of the lasers and SRMs. Even when you close to shorter ranges you can pair a single ER PPC with all the other weapons and not worry about heat
Though I can see an argument for sticking with standard PPCs if the 'Mech gets used at 1 to 15 hexes most of the time. Then you can Alpha Strike 'til the cows come home and not worry about heat management.
But I'd only switch to ER PPCs if you were forcing me to change the PPCs first. PPCs aren't my first priority for tweaking this design if I was going to use it.
Rather, it'd be the small lasers and armor. Spending 1.5 tons on weapons that are basically only useful at 1-2 hexes is inefficient, especially when you're 0.5 tons away from having another pair of medium lasers. And a half ton is available from the armor. Of this design's 14 tons of armor, 7 out of 8 of the last half ton's points are unused. A 70-ton biped can only carry 217 points, and you can get 216 points from 13.5 tons.
A 4 ML, 1 SRM 6, 2 PPC design only has 36 weapons heat, which is well within the capacity of 17 DHS and a moderately disciplined MechWarrior. Further, you have a net gain in firepower: 3 SL deal out 9 points of damage, while 2 ML deal 10 points of damage (and over a trebled range band.) Except for possible aesthetic considerations, it's a win.
Heh. And two more MLs are a reason to stick with standard PPCs. ER PPCs wouldn't mix as well with the 3 extra points of heat. If you're an alpha striking enthusiast, standard PPCs are definitely better with the extra MLs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (05/12/14 07:35 PM)
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TigerShark
05/12/14 08:23 PM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
LegatusDavoke writes:
I played a 4v4 TigerShark, it would be accurate to say that Karagin's model wiped the floor with the ERPPC variant.
What were the conditions of the battle? How many map sheets? AI or real person for an opponent?
Edited by TigerShark (05/12/14 08:28 PM)
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LegatusDavoke
05/13/14 12:24 AM
99.101.200.202
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It was a 25x25 hex map with incredibly little cover, favoring the ERPPC mech in general. All pilots were 4/5, temperature was 25 degrees Celsius, in the daytime. The opponent was an AI set to be cautious(favoring range) to maximize its time for the ERPPC ranges to show. The AI gave me a good fight until their center was broken with a PPC hit to an already damaged cockpit. The round ended as a bully circle of Warhammers kicked apart the surviving ERPPC Whammy. I lost a mech before the AI did, due to focus fire, it fell around turn 6
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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KamikazeJohnson
05/13/14 12:34 AM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
LegatusDavoke writes:
It was a 25x25 hex map with incredibly little cover, favoring the ERPPC mech in general. All pilots were 4/5, temperature was 25 degrees Celsius, in the daytime. The opponent was an AI set to be cautious(favoring range) to maximize its time for the ERPPC ranges to show. The AI gave me a good fight until their center was broken with a PPC hit to an already damaged cockpit. The round ended as a bully circle of Warhammers kicked apart the surviving ERPPC Whammy. I lost a mech before the AI did, due to focus fire, it fell around turn 6
You should recreate the fight and take the other side...if the AI manages to win against the ERPPC team, that confirms the result.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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LegatusDavoke
05/13/14 12:38 AM
99.101.200.202
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I was already planning to do so, most likely tomorrow or Thursday.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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Retry
05/13/14 12:44 AM
76.7.236.208
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Oh, so you're the Karagins then, and not the Retrys?
Crap that came out wrong.
Edited by Retry (05/13/14 12:44 AM)
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LegatusDavoke
05/13/14 12:45 AM
99.101.200.202
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I'm playing through the same matches from both sides, once I have the time. I should have all results by Friday.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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TigerShark
05/13/14 12:56 AM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
LegatusDavoke writes:
It was a 25x25 hex map with incredibly little cover, favoring the ERPPC mech in general. All pilots were 4/5, temperature was 25 degrees Celsius, in the daytime. The opponent was an AI set to be cautious(favoring range) to maximize its time for the ERPPC ranges to show. The AI gave me a good fight until their center was broken with a PPC hit to an already damaged cockpit. The round ended as a bully circle of Warhammers kicked apart the surviving ERPPC Whammy. I lost a mech before the AI did, due to focus fire, it fell around turn 6
That is incredibly tiny for a Lance fight, IMO. After turn 1 (23 [deployed on hex 3] - 6 [ran 6] = 17), there isn't a place on the map the units can be where they're free from fire. The beauty of the ER PPC is staying at range. If you take that away, it artificially favors the PPC.
Imagine if I fought an AWS-8Q vs. HBK-4G and made the map 10x10 hexes. How quickly do you think the HBK- is going to get a good shot? 
Were I to play this out, I'd have (2) of the ER PPC units, some LRM toting units with Thunder mines and possibly a fast brawler to keep them at bay (like a KIM-2 Komodo) or some mechanized infantry (Hover Platoon with heavy SRMs or a support PPC).
Guess this all depends on the era of play as well.
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