Karagin
04/20/14 10:03 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Easy and to the point, this one follows the old idea of KISS, and gives you more for your C-bill. The gains here far out weigh using the ERPPC since now you can fire all day till the cows come home...
Code: BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Warhammer WHM-6DD
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3050
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 70 tons
Chassis: StarCorp 100 Endo Steel
Power Plant: 280 VOX Fusion
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Leviathon Plus Standard
Armament:
2 PPCs
2 Medium Lasers
3 Small Lasers
1 SRM 6
Manufacturer: StarCorps Industries
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: O/P 3000 COMSET
Targeting & Tracking System: O/P 1500 ARB
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Warhammer WHM-6DD
Mass: 70 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 107 pts Endo Steel 14 3.50
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 5 LT, 2 RT, 2 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Engine: 280 Fusion 6 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 17 Double [34] 18 7.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 2 LA, 2 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT)
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA R: Sh+UA+LA 14 .00
Armor Factor: 217 pts Standard 0 14.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 22 34
Center Torso (Rear): 10
L/R Side Torso: 15 22/22
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 8/8
L/R Arm: 11 22/22
L/R Leg: 15 30/30
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 PPC RA 10 3 7.00
1 PPC LA 10 3 7.00
1 Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
1 Small Laser RT 1 1 .50
1 SRM 6 RT 4 30 4 5.00
(Ammo Locations: 2 RT)
1 Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
2 Small Lasers LT 2 2 1.00
CASE Equipment: LT RT 2 1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 33 78 70.00
Crits & Tons Left: 0 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 6,644,309 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,573 (old BV = 1,392)
Cost per BV2: 4,223.97
Weapon Value: 2,294 / 2,294 (Ratio = 1.46 / 1.46)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 32; MRDmg = 15; LRDmg = 5
BattleForce2: MP: 4, Armor/Structure: 5/5
Damage PB/M/L: 6/4/2, Overheat: 0
Class: MH; Point Value: 16
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
05/10/14 06:34 PM
70.118.139.48
|
I stand corrected you can over heat if you lose a heat sink, blasted Atlas and that AC20...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
LegatusDavoke
05/11/14 01:34 AM
99.101.200.202
|
So what I'm seeing is a Warhammer that gets double sinks and extra small laser. So basically a simple 3040ish upgrade that could conceivably be a production model field refit
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
|
Karagin
05/11/14 10:29 AM
70.118.139.48
|
It gets DHS, CASE and Endo Steel.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
LegatusDavoke
05/11/14 10:46 AM
99.101.200.202
|
Well, being half asleep has its downsides when looking at textwalls. If you could get in to 6-15 hex combat with Clanners, you'd be smoking anything under 60 tons with little issue.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
|
Retry
05/11/14 11:56 AM
76.7.236.208
|
It'd benefit from losing the small lasers for a DHS, and an upgrade to an ERPPC for at least one of the two. Perhaps lose the SRM, as that creates an ammunition issue.
|
Karagin
05/11/14 12:27 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Well thanks for the idea Retry, I don't see any ways it would benefit from adding 10 extra heat by going with the ERs so I don't think they will be the route I take on this one and given that this an upgrade or variant and not a new mech. So thanks but no.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
LegatusDavoke
05/11/14 02:05 PM
99.101.200.202
|
Yeah...standard IS ERPPC's are honestly really lame. They only out class standard PPC's at short range due to no minimum, otherwise the standards make more sense
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
|
Retry
05/11/14 02:07 PM
76.7.236.208
|
You forget long-range. Or so would be suggested by the "Extended Range" part of it.
I'm fairly certain you can get more use out of 2 ERPPCs than you can with 2 PPCs and 3 small lasers.
|
Karagin
05/11/14 02:09 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Retry again thank you but that is not the direction I wanted to go with the design. Again if you feel you can do better then build your own version.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
LegatusDavoke
05/11/14 02:19 PM
99.101.200.202
|
Retry, the ER gets like...3(?) more range, 15 heat isn't worth that range.
Edit:especially since he's trying to stay true to the classic Warhammer, except without its abysmal heat issues.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
Edited by LegatusDavoke (05/11/14 02:21 PM)
|
Retry
05/11/14 03:35 PM
76.7.236.208
|
I already have built my own version.
It loses the minimum range, gains +1/2/5 range short/medium/long range and it's for 5 extra heat per PPC which this design can easily stomach. Especially if it removes those dead weight small lasers.
It's fine that he wants to stay with the classic feel(not that an ERPPC swap would compromise that at all in any way), but if the following statement was made:
"...The gains here far out weigh using the ERPPC..."
and it is simply false, a note will be made of it.
Of course, if you really would like to put that to the test Davoke you can take his design with my take of it in a few lance-on-lance battles.
|
Karagin
05/11/14 05:50 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Again thank you Retry, but I like it as it is without the ER PPCs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
LegatusDavoke
05/11/14 06:52 PM
99.101.200.202
|
I have to agree with Karagin here...the PPC is going to be the better choice for this design. The excessive ERPPC heat isn't worth the loss of the small lasers anti-infantry capacity and low heat for such a simple and respectable upgrade.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
|
Retry
05/11/14 09:03 PM
76.7.236.208
|
Small lasers don't have an anti-infantry 2D6 aquired from burst firing. That would be the small pulse laser. So they aren't even very valuable for that.
|
KamikazeJohnson
05/11/14 10:29 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Retry writes:
Small lasers don't have an anti-infantry 2D6 aquired from burst firing. That would be the small pulse laser. So they aren't even very valuable for that.
I like the SLs actually. 2 or more can contribute a significant amount of damage if you're fighting nose-to-nose. I would actually drop a half-ton of armour (only costs 1 point on this design due to limits) for a fourth SL, or swap for 2 SPLs.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
TigerShark
05/11/14 10:32 PM
68.190.197.104
|
The ER PPC is definitely worth it. The damage doesn't increase, but there are minute differences that can help you survive in a pitched battle:
(a) You out-range your enemy's LRMs. If they happen to have partial cover or woods, you can stay an additional 2 hexes back and force them out of their own cover. With a PPC, you need to approach an entrenched enemy.
(b) The bigger range brackets can mean you're in your short/medium while they're in their medium/long, giving them a TN (2) over your own. "Not being hit" is just as important as adding armor to a unit.
(c) If and when you interact with Clan units, you aren't constantly running around like an idiot trying to get a shot off. You might miss, but at least you have a chance. With a standard PPC, you have a few rounds of getting slapped around before returning fire.
(d) No minimum range. If you get in trouble and need to alpha strike with an enemy in kicking distance, the ER PPC is going to be handy in a pinch where the PPC probably won't hit (unless you're using Field Inhibitor Disengage rules).
Edited by TigerShark (05/11/14 10:33 PM)
|
LegatusDavoke
05/11/14 10:37 PM
99.101.200.202
|
Well, since retry wants to test them, I'll build both karagin's and retry's mods, and test them in 6 MegaMek battles using TacOps rules. Results to follow...
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
|
Karagin
05/11/14 11:04 PM
70.118.139.48
|
All of that for 10 extra heat, no sorry I will stay with the normal PPCs and the simple easy changes to the design.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
05/11/14 11:10 PM
76.7.236.208
|
I'm not sure that switching to an ERPPC is an easier change to a design compared to, say, switching out the entire internal structure to endo-steel.
|
Karagin
05/11/14 11:22 PM
70.118.139.48
|
It is with it being a complete upgrade to the existing mech, an upgrade that would be factory level and thus ground up rebuild and really a lot better then the exiting canon take on the mech ala TRO3050.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
05/11/14 11:46 PM
76.7.236.208
|
An upgrade from a PPC to a ERPPC could be a possible field modification.
Changing the internal structure changes the mech entirely that it may as well be a completely different mech. If you're going to bother taking the design with the upgraded structure, you may as well upgrade the rest from the ground up.
The following can fire 2 ERPPCs and 3 medium lasers, and if it doesn't move gains a net of only 1 heat. 2 Small Pulse Lasers are exclusively anti-infantry backup weapons, which are overall more capable of dealing with those threats than 3 small lasers. It actually has 3 tons of weight unaccounted for, which can be spent later on another modification... say, a compact gyro and a GECM suite. Or armoring the engine component. Whatever works in the time frame.
Warhammer WHM-6DDb
IS TW non-box set
70 tons
BV: 1,655
Cost: 6,663,434 C-bills
Source: Succession Wars
Movement: 4/6
Engine: 280
Double Heat Sinks: 19 [38]
Gyro: Standard Gyro
Internal: 107 (Endo-Steel)
Armor: 216/217
Internal Armor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 34
Center Torso (rear) 9
Right Torso 15 22
Right Torso (rear) 8
Left Torso 15 22
Left Torso (rear) 8
Right Arm 11 22
Left Arm 11 22
Right Leg 15 30
Left Leg 15 30
Weapons Loc Heat
Medium Laser LT 3
Medium Laser RT 3
ER PPC LA 15
ER PPC RA 15
Small Pulse Laser LT 2
Small Pulse Laser RT 2
Medium Laser HD 3
|
Karagin
05/11/14 11:57 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Indeed it could be, but seeing how I wasn't, yet again I point this out, going for a upgrade with every bell and whistle, the need to do so would not be there given that mech has major improvements over the other upgrades out there and offers a better over all use of the weapons on it. It seem Retry that you are in the rut FASA was in, by that I mean you seem to think that if there is an ER version of an energy weapon then it must be used every chance you can slap it on a mech etc...when in fact the existing weapons can get more use with other modification that allow for other higher tech items, in this case frame and heat sinks and CASE. All of which offer far more to the mech then going the ER version of the main weapons. Many of the TRO3050 and the revised version of that TRO offered a lot of sub-par upgrades to Inner Sphere mechs that simply traded old problems for newer ones and did nothing to address or correct the older ones. Which as I have stated time again, re-inventing the broken wheel was not what I was going for with this upgrade. Not sure how you missed that, but that is what I was doing, fixing an issue with the design and at the same time keeping it simple and less of a stresser on the factories.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
05/12/14 12:00 AM
76.7.236.208
|
Quote:
Karagin writes:
The gains here far out weigh using the ERPPC since now you can fire all day till the cows come home...
Yet again, this is what I am referring to. Not your not wanting to put every new tech on one platform, but saying it simply wouldn't help it when this is not the case.
|
LegatusDavoke
05/12/14 12:02 AM
99.101.200.202
|
OK, I'm using this post to track battles. Check back for edits...
Engagement 1:
Map: the original BattleTech mapsheet, 16x17
Style:2v2
Results:
Karagin's Whammies barely edged out retry's in a brutal brawl. One remained in 50% condition.
Engagement 2:
Map: Crater, 25x25(no cover except a few small rises)
Style:4v4
Results:
Despite open terrain favoring retry's ERPPC Whammies, Karagin's model won with 3 of his on the field in 50, 58, and 86% condition.
Engagements 3-6 coming soon
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
|
Karagin
05/12/14 12:04 AM
70.118.139.48
|
What is it that you are referring to? That for an extra 10 heat you gain no minimum range and a bit longer range but no increase in damage? Yeah not seeing that as any kind of improvement versus staying, like I chose too, with standard PPCs and going with Endo and DHS, which again allow for a better over performance of the mech vs tossing in the higher heat ERPPCs which do nothing really to improve the ability of the mech over all. So what was your point again?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
05/12/14 12:04 AM
76.7.236.208
|
Hmm, how did you get my Warhammer WHM-6DDbs in engagements? I just posted them.
And what are the warhammers doing? Are they charging straight to near point blank and alpha striking?
|
LegatusDavoke
05/12/14 12:08 AM
99.101.200.202
|
They were conjecturized based on your comments. They packed equivalent firepower to Karagins, but used only energy weapons. Your mechs stayed both at range, and pressed the gaps to force karagin's into minimum range. Truth be told, crater was looking to be a loss for karagin's design until a lucky shot blew one of your pilots clean into the afterlife, after that your guys got picked apart, since the dead mech was your line's center.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
|
Retry
05/12/14 12:15 AM
76.7.236.208
|
Why wouldn't they try to stay at range until it could no longer with the ERPPCS range advantage?
Are you using AI for these tests?
|
LegatusDavoke
05/12/14 12:20 AM
99.101.200.202
|
I'm doing 3 battles me vs. AI for each design, on the same maps. Personally I'm finding the heat dissapation to be winning the day.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
|