chez
01/26/05 09:09 PM
62.173.81.122
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I have been looking at the stats for protomechs and with a couple of exceptions they look totally PANTS , pointless and impractical. I mean , you cannot have hit locations on things that are so small. Also it is impossible to have a cockpit-surely the protomechwarrior must be 2 feet tall otherwise his whole lower body must be in the torso.
Any way I have seen no fluff and maybe some questions are answered by the blurb but at first glance their design concept looks fatally flawed.
Opinions????
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Nightward
01/26/05 09:32 PM
203.214.145.163
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Prot pilots are failed AeroSpacers with EI. They scrunch up into a little ball while they're in the Proto's chest cavity.
Protos are, in fact, quite good. Some blow (the Siren sort of springs to mind) but others- like the Rock and Gorgon are fantastic.
The armour of Protos usually allows them to make it through a hit from at least one Mech-scale weapon, possibly more, which is great.
Ad to that the number of Near Miss locations on the chart, and they become quite irritating.
As with everything, it depends on how you use them. A canny player will always make you pay.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
01/26/05 09:47 PM
65.133.242.37
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They were supposely for the Jaguars who some how had spent all of their reasources on pointless ventures and such and didn't have the mechs and other arms to defend themselves with.
When in all relaity they seemed to be a way to replace the ultra light mechs and make battlearmor less of a threat...failed at both.
I have my own power armor and they ripped Protos to peices in a matter of 2 turns.
So I don't like them and while my group does use them, they are cannon fodder.
The idea for these could have been done better but alas it wasn't. Noting that these things didn't even make it into MWDA timeline (at least not yet) so that should tell you something.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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chez
01/26/05 10:32 PM
62.173.81.122
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That's the beauty of this site - people can always find a way to rubbish MWDA regardless of the thread.
I must confess to having a weak moment the other day and nearly buying a MWDA novel ( I don't remember which one ) . The consensus of opinion seems to be against such a purchase so I bought the new Terry Pratchett novel "Going Postal" and very good it is too.
Anyway, protomechs - Siren and Satyr look ok ina scout / cavalry role but surely everything else is so slow it would be obliterated in moments by real light mechs or are these supposed to replace elementals/gnomes/salamanders/undines etc.
For those of you following the "chez gets back into battletech" storyline- and I know you all have. I've been out and bought some books so "Lookout , I'm back, bad and somewhat poorer than before!"
A great catchphrase- maybe I'll change my sig. Then again maybe not.
I can see real mechs drop-kicking protomechs across the battlefield or them just being trampled underfoot. 2 of them are the same speed as an atlas for crying out loud.
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Nightward
01/26/05 11:20 PM
203.214.145.163
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Protos are supposed to be Super-Elementals.
Based on the first appearances of Ocelots (to use Paul Master's term), most people would probably have gone "OMFGWTFBBQ! TEH J4GUARS HAVE TEH SIX METRE TA77 313M3N7415!!111"
OTOH, Atlases weigh 100 tons and don't have Near Miss locations.
I'll run 100 tons of ProtoMech (I think that should give me 14 Rocs) against an Atlas any day.
Re: MW DA, I am about to change my .sig file so that I am always railing agains it, no matter the content of thread I'm posting to.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
01/27/05 12:26 AM
65.129.165.237
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It's not a matter of bashing MWDA, it's a matter of pointing out that game doesn't follow BT in any shape beyond a select few things needed to convince folks to buy into it. I got the chance to read some of th novels and found the stories interesting if you toss out some of the silliness and to me it seemed to be a return to the days of one lance takes a whole planet ala the Grey Death Legion early novels.
Protos are okay if you want bigger battlearmor or light mechs, but with the rules as they are, they don't stand a chance against anything else. Back in 2002, I watched a Snake take out 3 different Protos at a convention and the player using the Protos wasn't happy over that. We are talking they moved the Snaked moved they did light damage to the mech the mech killed them.
Somewhere along the way the idea and the implacation of these things was lost. I recall back when they came out folks were scream about they needed more playtesting and balancing etc...the then Powers that Where, aka one guy who was BT Developer before Randal, seemed to think they were ready and they got published. Then it seemed like the points being made against them got through and nothing was done with them and then in the MW Guide to the Clans we see that the Protos are still around and EVERY CLAN has them, seems that the folks in Op. Serpeant missed a few sites when they razed Huntress of all military infastructure.
So you have subpar units that aren't really battlearmor and not quite mechs and can't really do either role that well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/27/05 12:29 AM
65.129.165.237
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100 tons of Protos against an Atlas...I am betting on the Atlas...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
01/27/05 02:58 AM
203.214.146.235
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You're kidding, right? Rocs can survive the LRMs and fight from 15 hexes. The Atlas' AC can't touch them from that range, so all they have to do is snipe.
I've lead 3,000 BV of Protos against a Kodiak. The Kodiak managed to down a single Proto.
I really think you're under-estimating the little guys.
Protos are only in use by a few Clans. The Spirits like them because they don't take as much resources to build as full-scale 'Mechs.
Their applications of Protos is limited to support roles. Essentially, they're faster, tougher Elementals.
They are also pretty expensive considering their capabilities.
***
As for MW: DA...they might have missed the memo about that. The one with the CapCon vs the Sphere deployed Regimental-sized units.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Edited by Nightward (01/27/05 03:03 AM)
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Karagin
01/27/05 03:16 AM
65.129.165.237
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Hey if you say so...never seen these POS do much of anything other then die. A smart player won't let them get any shots that allow them full use of their weapons...and the last time I looked the Atlas has similar ranged weapons and if he closes it's good nigh to anything he hits.
As for how easy they are to make...they still take reasources away from other things, so it comes down to how bad you need a unit.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
01/27/05 04:08 AM
203.214.146.235
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AS7-D, which is the best and fairest comparison to Protos, will loose because of its loadout. Rocs are fast enough to stay out of everything except LRM range, and the LRM-20 only has 12 shots any way.
AS7-K looks a bit better, yeah. Then again, you could just hurl a bunch of Satyrs at it.
Personally, you'd think that the best options for resource-poor Clans would be the various Elemental subtypes transported in vehicles. That'd be nasty. That or ASF, but then, BT has a history of neglecting AeroFighters.
Like I say, all it takes is for the Proto player to not be stupid. I'm guessing the Pro player from the first example chose his units poorly and forgot to swarm his opponent. The biggest advantage Protos have is that there's so many of them, and you can only shoot at a few.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
01/27/05 07:22 AM
216.14.192.234
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Gorgon with LRM10s or the MPL version would rip the Atlas apart.
In fact Rocs (not Rocks, mythical bird not a stone) would outmanouver the atlas either way (either D or K version). 5/8/5 as compared to 3/5. You could rush either version with the Heavy Medium laser version since the modifiers won't be that high and just gut the unit with 10 damage weapons or skirt around with the ER medium version and pick the unit off. The incoming damage would gut the unit.
Personally 100 tons of clan tech should cream 100 tons of IS tech. Particuarly in this case with a solo IS unit vs multiple clan units.
Other advantages is that one Protomech can hold a hex, you can have up to 5 in a 'unit' or 'point' like elementals. This particular advantage is excellent if for example a star challenges a company you could come on the table with 25 protomechs compared to 12 mechs (works best on limited tonnage brackets).
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Karagin
01/27/05 12:15 PM
65.129.164.86
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I see your point, but I still favor the Atlas...I will see about trying to get a battle setup that fights this out. I am interested to see who wins.
Now which of my friends to convince to be the Protos. 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/27/05 12:21 PM
65.129.164.86
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Quote:
Personally 100 tons of clan tech should cream 100 tons of IS tech. Particuarly in this case with a solo IS unit vs multiple clan units.
I have seen single IS mechs hold off clan tech mechs and do so well enough to give the Clan players fits. Having High tech doesnt mean instantly winning. That is the one sad thing about BT is that the idea of a player having higher tech means they win. Sorry but things like tatics and sound use of the weapons systems come in to play more so then high tech.
4 years ago at a con I ran a lance on a lance of equal mechs, each side had the same mechs, one side had some high tech toys the other had better mechwarriors (the guys running the mechs, not the silly clicky game).
Outcome was a draw, each side had lot one mech each, and when time ran out neither was in a postion to win. Both sides displayed tactical and mech knowledge that kept turning the tables on each turn. So having ubertech doesn't mean you win. There is more to winning then high tech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
01/27/05 05:00 PM
203.214.145.254
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High tech makes it a hell of a lot easier, though.
Oh, and BTW: Protos require the ASF Phenotype and EI. Considering Protos were deployed among the Home Clans rather than the Invaders last time I checked, the odds of the IS being able to do anything there is pretty limited. They might have been able to replicate EI, but they really need the ASF Phenotype to pilot them due to their size, speed of reflexes, and ability to tolerate high levels of physical stress.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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chez
01/27/05 07:18 PM
62.173.81.122
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If you only allow a lvl1 Atlas then I think the protomechs would win but the Atlas upgrade (can't remember it's designation) with the GR and 2 ERLL would surely be victorious especially if BV was brought into the equation.
Incidentally I only threw the atlas name out there off the top of my head. There are I am sure you are aware many other IS mech designs that would do a better job of wiping out a wagon-load of protomechs.
Like any battle situation, it is easy to tailor your force to give youself the maximum opportunity to win if you know exactly what your opponent is going to play.
For example- If I was to say a straight match up, 100 tons , pick anything you want would you really choose 14 protomechs? Or 50 protomechs depending on the variant.
I would like to think that you would not as there are many other equally bizarre 100 ton combinations that would annhiliate you without breaking sweat eg. 20 savannah masters 
Actually........... what a thought!!!!!!
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Nightward
01/28/05 02:38 AM
203.214.147.45
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50 Sirens wouldn't be worth the effort. LMGs aren't so hot.
14 Rocs, OTOH, would be great.
But if I have 100 tons to go nuts with, I'd field 25 platoons of Achileus Battle Armour.
By flat tonnage or by BV, Protos probably have the odds on an Atlas. If you're looking for something that can squish Protos, a better choice for 100 tons or less would be the variant model on the Viking, or possibly a Nightstar. King-hitting weapons supported by MPLs are solid choices.
If pressed for an Assualt 'Mech to take on Protos, though, I don't think you'll do better than the Sagittaire. Pulse Lasers, Jump ability, solid armour, and TC + Pulse. It's like it was made to hunt Ocelots.
The AS7-K is better than the AS7-D, but not by much. The decision to use an XL engine and arm it with weapons that it overheats using (Standard Heat Sinks, dual ER Larges...GAH!) really causes it trouble. In the end, the Protos are likely to wn it, if only through strength of numbers.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
01/28/05 09:53 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
I have been looking at the stats for protomechs and with a couple of exceptions they look totally PANTS , pointless and impractical. I mean , you cannot have hit locations on things that are so small.
You can build vehicles smaller than protomechs (like the Savannah Master) and those vehicles still have hit locations. Protomechs are 6m/20ft tall. That's plenty of space for hit locations.
Quote:
Also it is impossible to have a cockpit-surely the protomechwarrior must be 2 feet tall otherwise his whole lower body must be in the torso.
Actually, the torso holds the whole cockpit - no part of the mechwarrior goes into the head. There's some nice artwork of a protomechwarrior settling into a protomech's cockpit in, IIRC, the BMR. (I say "nice" artwork because the warrior's a hottie and is wearing a tight-fitting suit.)
Think of quad battlearmors and their micro-cockpits: protomechs can be almost 5 times as large as BAs, giving them lots more elbowroom to fit a small cockpit.
Quote:
Any way I have seen no fluff and maybe some questions are answered by the blurb but at first glance their design concept looks fatally flawed. Opinions????
Protomechs have a several uses:
1) High endurance versions of battle armor. Protomechs are fusion powered (unlike BAs) and have the tonnage to carry quite a few reloads for their weapons. A protomech can carry an LRM 5 or 10 with 5, 10 or more shots, making them much more useful than the little 1- or 2-shot, small-capacity launchers on BAs.
2) High mobility versions of battle armor. Protomechs can easily exceed 6/9 movement, allowing them to pace regular units or cover long distances without hitching rides on omnimechs. In comparison, fast BA designs have ground speeds of 3 and jumping of 4-5, and probably won't have much payload.
3) Replacing light (20 ton) scout mechs. Big protomechs can do everything a 20-ton mech can: jump, move quickly, drop from orbit, and carry almost the same payload. When you have these cheap little protomechs to do scouting roles, you can free battlemechs to carry bigger weapon payloads for real combat.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/28/05 11:03 AM
65.133.242.119
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Wow and a point or squad of Elements can do the same thing for a lot less...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/28/05 11:08 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Wow and a point or squad of Elements can do the same thing for a lot less...
I'm willing to agree if you can do the following:
1) Post a BA design that moves 5/8/5, carries 10 LRM tubes, has 120 LRMs in its ammo bin, and has 42 points of armor.
2) Post a BA design that moves 7/11/3, carries and ER ML, and has 41 points of armor.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (01/28/05 11:14 AM)
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Karagin
01/28/05 12:39 PM
65.129.167.115
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Would if I have HMBA....also you are forgetting that the weapon selection for the BA is far more then the Protos.
BA can do the same mission as the Protos, that is what I am getting at and they cost a lot less then a proto does. Thus it would be smarter for a Clan in need of numbers to go with Elementals over portos.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/28/05 12:53 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Would if I have HMBA...
Do you at least have the CBT:Companion to see if you can add an LRM 10 and 120 missiles to a battle armor of any size? If you have it, you can also see how many battle armors you can get moving to 5/8/5 or 7/11/0.
Alternately, if you don't have the CBT:Companion, no problem. Go to Heavymetalpro.com and set up a design challenge: have someone design you battle armors that can match the specs I gave. Here are the specs again:
1) A BA design that moves 5/8/5, carries 10 LRM tubes, has 120 LRMs in its ammo bin, and has 42 points of armor.
2) A BA design that moves 7/11/3, carries and ER ML, and has 41 points of armor.
Quote:
BA can do the same mission as the Protos
I will agree when you get the above BAs designed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:01 PM
168.209.97.34
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I think I will support Cray on this one.
Question, now that both Protos and battle-armor were mentioned: the "C" variant of the Kirghiz has a 10-ton cargo space for two Elemental points. Would it also be possible to stick two 5-ton Protos as alternative? If air-dropping Elementals seemed scary, I think the idea of dropping Protos on the guys' base is even more horrifying (Operation Audacity, by Blaine Lee Pardoe).
Evolve or Die
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Karagin
01/28/05 01:04 PM
65.129.167.115
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The protos beat the BA on speed, that isn't the point here.
The point is the BA can do the role of scout just as well if not as better as the protos, cost less and are smaller thus able to hide better.
I know you can fit an LRM5 on Battlearmor and given that weapons aviable to the BAs, recoilless rifles, gauss guns etc...they can do a lot of damage, but again you are suggesting that the Protos do the role as scouts, and I point out that they suck in that role, and BA do a much better job.
And seeing how you have HMBA, why don't you just tell us if they Elements can carry similar weapons load out...it would stifle an arguement and would be far eaiser in the long run.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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chez
01/28/05 01:08 PM
62.173.81.122
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Quote "protomechs are 6m/20ft tall"
How tall is a normal mech? eg. wasp, hunchback and atlas
Because that sounds as if protos are the same size as mechs and yet are a fraction of their weight.
This sounds almost impossible unless protos are made out of cardboard-although given that I am raising this point with a materials engineer I may live to regret that statement. Still-If you don't ask , you don't get.
Also if protos can do everything a light mech can surely the same technology can be used to upgrade light mechs into "heavy protomechs". After all I have never seen a mech with micro-lasers and LRM3s etc.How good a 20 ton protomech could you make? (i really don't know as protos are a new find for me hence the thread  )
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Karagin
01/28/05 01:16 PM
65.129.167.115
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Quote:
I think I will support Cray on this one.
Great. I still stick to my point that BA can do the same job Cray is suggesting, aka scouting and recon for Protos and do it better and cheaper.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/28/05 01:17 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
How tall is a normal mech? eg. wasp, hunchback and atlas
Because that sounds as if protos are the same size as mechs
Battlemechs average 10-12m/40ft tall. Protomechs are half battlemech size.
Quote:
This sounds almost impossible unless protos are made out of cardboard
Note: the 9-ton Blackhawk helicopter is wider, longer, and taller than the 70-ton Abrams tank. A Wasp is about the same size as an Atlas.
Quote:
Also if protos can do everything a light mech can surely the same technology can be used to upgrade light mechs into "heavy protomechs".
You sure you'd want to do that? Battlemechs determine engine rating based on their walking speed. Protomechs base it on their running speed. A 20-ton Wasp with 6/9 movement has a 120-rated engine; a 20-ton protomech would have a 180-rated engine.
Further, Protomechs have certain items that ONLY work because of their small size. When you scale protomechs up to battlemech size, you get...battlemechs.
Quote:
After all I have never seen a mech with micro-lasers
Microlasers are available to Clan battlemechs. They're a standard Battletech Master Rules item for any Clan unit.
Quote:
and LRM3s etc.
Odd-sized missile launchers are a protomech/battle armor-only option at the current time.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:26 PM
168.209.97.34
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Okay, let me re-phrase my support of Cray: I support the (very unClan-like) use of Protos as harassers and guerilla fighters, that have the ability to also perform to specs in the recon role. Sure - BA's are cheaper, but unless you are using mimetic designs like the Purifier and such, BA's offer very little advantage not being hit by weapons fire. They only get a +1 modifer for being spread out, compared to the possibilities of getting a "Near Miss" with the Protos. Protos are also faster, and although I am not very familiar with the use of BA's when it comes to exotice terrain types (water, magma, geysers, etc), I am sure the Protos will also be better.
Finally, coming to cost, the old saying of "If you want to do it, do it properly" will ring true here. Being Clan, these guys would rather invest once in an expensive Proto recon star than repeated investments of fragile BA's like the Sylph.
Evolve or Die
Edited by Silenced_Sonix (01/28/05 01:26 PM)
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Karagin
01/28/05 01:30 PM
65.129.167.115
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Cost...the BAs are cheaper then Protos...so in the longer run you can get more of them then you can of the Protos and the Clans aren't stupid, different but not stupid.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:32 PM
168.209.97.34
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I know the difference is in the cost, but look at it this way: would you rather eat out of paper plates your entire life, or spend some money once-off to get some decent plates?
Evolve or Die
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Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:37 PM
168.209.97.34
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HAH! Look and weep:
Point of Elementals: 3,500,000 C-Bills
Cost per unit: 700,000 C-Bills
Cost of one Siren with 10/15/0 movement: 636, 974 C-Bills
Cost of one Satyr with 7/11/0 movement: 662, 688 C-Bills
Now try and tell me BA's are cheaper...
Evolve or Die
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