chez
01/26/05 09:09 PM
62.173.81.122
|
I have been looking at the stats for protomechs and with a couple of exceptions they look totally PANTS , pointless and impractical. I mean , you cannot have hit locations on things that are so small. Also it is impossible to have a cockpit-surely the protomechwarrior must be 2 feet tall otherwise his whole lower body must be in the torso.
Any way I have seen no fluff and maybe some questions are answered by the blurb but at first glance their design concept looks fatally flawed.
Opinions????
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
|
Nightward
01/26/05 09:32 PM
203.214.145.163
|
Prot pilots are failed AeroSpacers with EI. They scrunch up into a little ball while they're in the Proto's chest cavity.
Protos are, in fact, quite good. Some blow (the Siren sort of springs to mind) but others- like the Rock and Gorgon are fantastic.
The armour of Protos usually allows them to make it through a hit from at least one Mech-scale weapon, possibly more, which is great.
Ad to that the number of Near Miss locations on the chart, and they become quite irritating.
As with everything, it depends on how you use them. A canny player will always make you pay.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
01/26/05 09:47 PM
65.133.242.37
|
They were supposely for the Jaguars who some how had spent all of their reasources on pointless ventures and such and didn't have the mechs and other arms to defend themselves with.
When in all relaity they seemed to be a way to replace the ultra light mechs and make battlearmor less of a threat...failed at both.
I have my own power armor and they ripped Protos to peices in a matter of 2 turns.
So I don't like them and while my group does use them, they are cannon fodder.
The idea for these could have been done better but alas it wasn't. Noting that these things didn't even make it into MWDA timeline (at least not yet) so that should tell you something.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
chez
01/26/05 10:32 PM
62.173.81.122
|
That's the beauty of this site - people can always find a way to rubbish MWDA regardless of the thread.
I must confess to having a weak moment the other day and nearly buying a MWDA novel ( I don't remember which one ) . The consensus of opinion seems to be against such a purchase so I bought the new Terry Pratchett novel "Going Postal" and very good it is too.
Anyway, protomechs - Siren and Satyr look ok ina scout / cavalry role but surely everything else is so slow it would be obliterated in moments by real light mechs or are these supposed to replace elementals/gnomes/salamanders/undines etc.
For those of you following the "chez gets back into battletech" storyline- and I know you all have. I've been out and bought some books so "Lookout , I'm back, bad and somewhat poorer than before!"
A great catchphrase- maybe I'll change my sig. Then again maybe not.
I can see real mechs drop-kicking protomechs across the battlefield or them just being trampled underfoot. 2 of them are the same speed as an atlas for crying out loud.
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
|
Nightward
01/26/05 11:20 PM
203.214.145.163
|
Protos are supposed to be Super-Elementals.
Based on the first appearances of Ocelots (to use Paul Master's term), most people would probably have gone "OMFGWTFBBQ! TEH J4GUARS HAVE TEH SIX METRE TA77 313M3N7415!!111"
OTOH, Atlases weigh 100 tons and don't have Near Miss locations.
I'll run 100 tons of ProtoMech (I think that should give me 14 Rocs) against an Atlas any day.
Re: MW DA, I am about to change my .sig file so that I am always railing agains it, no matter the content of thread I'm posting to.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
01/27/05 12:26 AM
65.129.165.237
|
It's not a matter of bashing MWDA, it's a matter of pointing out that game doesn't follow BT in any shape beyond a select few things needed to convince folks to buy into it. I got the chance to read some of th novels and found the stories interesting if you toss out some of the silliness and to me it seemed to be a return to the days of one lance takes a whole planet ala the Grey Death Legion early novels.
Protos are okay if you want bigger battlearmor or light mechs, but with the rules as they are, they don't stand a chance against anything else. Back in 2002, I watched a Snake take out 3 different Protos at a convention and the player using the Protos wasn't happy over that. We are talking they moved the Snaked moved they did light damage to the mech the mech killed them.
Somewhere along the way the idea and the implacation of these things was lost. I recall back when they came out folks were scream about they needed more playtesting and balancing etc...the then Powers that Where, aka one guy who was BT Developer before Randal, seemed to think they were ready and they got published. Then it seemed like the points being made against them got through and nothing was done with them and then in the MW Guide to the Clans we see that the Protos are still around and EVERY CLAN has them, seems that the folks in Op. Serpeant missed a few sites when they razed Huntress of all military infastructure.
So you have subpar units that aren't really battlearmor and not quite mechs and can't really do either role that well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
01/27/05 12:29 AM
65.129.165.237
|
100 tons of Protos against an Atlas...I am betting on the Atlas...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
01/27/05 02:58 AM
203.214.146.235
|
You're kidding, right? Rocs can survive the LRMs and fight from 15 hexes. The Atlas' AC can't touch them from that range, so all they have to do is snipe.
I've lead 3,000 BV of Protos against a Kodiak. The Kodiak managed to down a single Proto.
I really think you're under-estimating the little guys.
Protos are only in use by a few Clans. The Spirits like them because they don't take as much resources to build as full-scale 'Mechs.
Their applications of Protos is limited to support roles. Essentially, they're faster, tougher Elementals.
They are also pretty expensive considering their capabilities.
***
As for MW: DA...they might have missed the memo about that. The one with the CapCon vs the Sphere deployed Regimental-sized units.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Edited by Nightward (01/27/05 03:03 AM)
|
Karagin
01/27/05 03:16 AM
65.129.165.237
|
Hey if you say so...never seen these POS do much of anything other then die. A smart player won't let them get any shots that allow them full use of their weapons...and the last time I looked the Atlas has similar ranged weapons and if he closes it's good nigh to anything he hits.
As for how easy they are to make...they still take reasources away from other things, so it comes down to how bad you need a unit.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
01/27/05 04:08 AM
203.214.146.235
|
AS7-D, which is the best and fairest comparison to Protos, will loose because of its loadout. Rocs are fast enough to stay out of everything except LRM range, and the LRM-20 only has 12 shots any way.
AS7-K looks a bit better, yeah. Then again, you could just hurl a bunch of Satyrs at it.
Personally, you'd think that the best options for resource-poor Clans would be the various Elemental subtypes transported in vehicles. That'd be nasty. That or ASF, but then, BT has a history of neglecting AeroFighters.
Like I say, all it takes is for the Proto player to not be stupid. I'm guessing the Pro player from the first example chose his units poorly and forgot to swarm his opponent. The biggest advantage Protos have is that there's so many of them, and you can only shoot at a few.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Greyslayer
01/27/05 07:22 AM
216.14.192.234
|
Gorgon with LRM10s or the MPL version would rip the Atlas apart.
In fact Rocs (not Rocks, mythical bird not a stone) would outmanouver the atlas either way (either D or K version). 5/8/5 as compared to 3/5. You could rush either version with the Heavy Medium laser version since the modifiers won't be that high and just gut the unit with 10 damage weapons or skirt around with the ER medium version and pick the unit off. The incoming damage would gut the unit.
Personally 100 tons of clan tech should cream 100 tons of IS tech. Particuarly in this case with a solo IS unit vs multiple clan units.
Other advantages is that one Protomech can hold a hex, you can have up to 5 in a 'unit' or 'point' like elementals. This particular advantage is excellent if for example a star challenges a company you could come on the table with 25 protomechs compared to 12 mechs (works best on limited tonnage brackets).
|
Karagin
01/27/05 12:15 PM
65.129.164.86
|
I see your point, but I still favor the Atlas...I will see about trying to get a battle setup that fights this out. I am interested to see who wins.
Now which of my friends to convince to be the Protos. 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
01/27/05 12:21 PM
65.129.164.86
|
Quote:
Personally 100 tons of clan tech should cream 100 tons of IS tech. Particuarly in this case with a solo IS unit vs multiple clan units.
I have seen single IS mechs hold off clan tech mechs and do so well enough to give the Clan players fits. Having High tech doesnt mean instantly winning. That is the one sad thing about BT is that the idea of a player having higher tech means they win. Sorry but things like tatics and sound use of the weapons systems come in to play more so then high tech.
4 years ago at a con I ran a lance on a lance of equal mechs, each side had the same mechs, one side had some high tech toys the other had better mechwarriors (the guys running the mechs, not the silly clicky game).
Outcome was a draw, each side had lot one mech each, and when time ran out neither was in a postion to win. Both sides displayed tactical and mech knowledge that kept turning the tables on each turn. So having ubertech doesn't mean you win. There is more to winning then high tech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
01/27/05 05:00 PM
203.214.145.254
|
High tech makes it a hell of a lot easier, though.
Oh, and BTW: Protos require the ASF Phenotype and EI. Considering Protos were deployed among the Home Clans rather than the Invaders last time I checked, the odds of the IS being able to do anything there is pretty limited. They might have been able to replicate EI, but they really need the ASF Phenotype to pilot them due to their size, speed of reflexes, and ability to tolerate high levels of physical stress.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
chez
01/27/05 07:18 PM
62.173.81.122
|
If you only allow a lvl1 Atlas then I think the protomechs would win but the Atlas upgrade (can't remember it's designation) with the GR and 2 ERLL would surely be victorious especially if BV was brought into the equation.
Incidentally I only threw the atlas name out there off the top of my head. There are I am sure you are aware many other IS mech designs that would do a better job of wiping out a wagon-load of protomechs.
Like any battle situation, it is easy to tailor your force to give youself the maximum opportunity to win if you know exactly what your opponent is going to play.
For example- If I was to say a straight match up, 100 tons , pick anything you want would you really choose 14 protomechs? Or 50 protomechs depending on the variant.
I would like to think that you would not as there are many other equally bizarre 100 ton combinations that would annhiliate you without breaking sweat eg. 20 savannah masters 
Actually........... what a thought!!!!!!
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
|
Nightward
01/28/05 02:38 AM
203.214.147.45
|
50 Sirens wouldn't be worth the effort. LMGs aren't so hot.
14 Rocs, OTOH, would be great.
But if I have 100 tons to go nuts with, I'd field 25 platoons of Achileus Battle Armour.
By flat tonnage or by BV, Protos probably have the odds on an Atlas. If you're looking for something that can squish Protos, a better choice for 100 tons or less would be the variant model on the Viking, or possibly a Nightstar. King-hitting weapons supported by MPLs are solid choices.
If pressed for an Assualt 'Mech to take on Protos, though, I don't think you'll do better than the Sagittaire. Pulse Lasers, Jump ability, solid armour, and TC + Pulse. It's like it was made to hunt Ocelots.
The AS7-K is better than the AS7-D, but not by much. The decision to use an XL engine and arm it with weapons that it overheats using (Standard Heat Sinks, dual ER Larges...GAH!) really causes it trouble. In the end, the Protos are likely to wn it, if only through strength of numbers.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Cray
01/28/05 09:53 AM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
I have been looking at the stats for protomechs and with a couple of exceptions they look totally PANTS , pointless and impractical. I mean , you cannot have hit locations on things that are so small.
You can build vehicles smaller than protomechs (like the Savannah Master) and those vehicles still have hit locations. Protomechs are 6m/20ft tall. That's plenty of space for hit locations.
Quote:
Also it is impossible to have a cockpit-surely the protomechwarrior must be 2 feet tall otherwise his whole lower body must be in the torso.
Actually, the torso holds the whole cockpit - no part of the mechwarrior goes into the head. There's some nice artwork of a protomechwarrior settling into a protomech's cockpit in, IIRC, the BMR. (I say "nice" artwork because the warrior's a hottie and is wearing a tight-fitting suit.)
Think of quad battlearmors and their micro-cockpits: protomechs can be almost 5 times as large as BAs, giving them lots more elbowroom to fit a small cockpit.
Quote:
Any way I have seen no fluff and maybe some questions are answered by the blurb but at first glance their design concept looks fatally flawed. Opinions????
Protomechs have a several uses:
1) High endurance versions of battle armor. Protomechs are fusion powered (unlike BAs) and have the tonnage to carry quite a few reloads for their weapons. A protomech can carry an LRM 5 or 10 with 5, 10 or more shots, making them much more useful than the little 1- or 2-shot, small-capacity launchers on BAs.
2) High mobility versions of battle armor. Protomechs can easily exceed 6/9 movement, allowing them to pace regular units or cover long distances without hitching rides on omnimechs. In comparison, fast BA designs have ground speeds of 3 and jumping of 4-5, and probably won't have much payload.
3) Replacing light (20 ton) scout mechs. Big protomechs can do everything a 20-ton mech can: jump, move quickly, drop from orbit, and carry almost the same payload. When you have these cheap little protomechs to do scouting roles, you can free battlemechs to carry bigger weapon payloads for real combat.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
01/28/05 11:03 AM
65.133.242.119
|
Wow and a point or squad of Elements can do the same thing for a lot less...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
01/28/05 11:08 AM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
Wow and a point or squad of Elements can do the same thing for a lot less...
I'm willing to agree if you can do the following:
1) Post a BA design that moves 5/8/5, carries 10 LRM tubes, has 120 LRMs in its ammo bin, and has 42 points of armor.
2) Post a BA design that moves 7/11/3, carries and ER ML, and has 41 points of armor.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (01/28/05 11:14 AM)
|
Karagin
01/28/05 12:39 PM
65.129.167.115
|
Would if I have HMBA....also you are forgetting that the weapon selection for the BA is far more then the Protos.
BA can do the same mission as the Protos, that is what I am getting at and they cost a lot less then a proto does. Thus it would be smarter for a Clan in need of numbers to go with Elementals over portos.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
01/28/05 12:53 PM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
Would if I have HMBA...
Do you at least have the CBT:Companion to see if you can add an LRM 10 and 120 missiles to a battle armor of any size? If you have it, you can also see how many battle armors you can get moving to 5/8/5 or 7/11/0.
Alternately, if you don't have the CBT:Companion, no problem. Go to Heavymetalpro.com and set up a design challenge: have someone design you battle armors that can match the specs I gave. Here are the specs again:
1) A BA design that moves 5/8/5, carries 10 LRM tubes, has 120 LRMs in its ammo bin, and has 42 points of armor.
2) A BA design that moves 7/11/3, carries and ER ML, and has 41 points of armor.
Quote:
BA can do the same mission as the Protos
I will agree when you get the above BAs designed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:01 PM
168.209.97.34
|
I think I will support Cray on this one.
Question, now that both Protos and battle-armor were mentioned: the "C" variant of the Kirghiz has a 10-ton cargo space for two Elemental points. Would it also be possible to stick two 5-ton Protos as alternative? If air-dropping Elementals seemed scary, I think the idea of dropping Protos on the guys' base is even more horrifying (Operation Audacity, by Blaine Lee Pardoe).
Evolve or Die
|
Karagin
01/28/05 01:04 PM
65.129.167.115
|
The protos beat the BA on speed, that isn't the point here.
The point is the BA can do the role of scout just as well if not as better as the protos, cost less and are smaller thus able to hide better.
I know you can fit an LRM5 on Battlearmor and given that weapons aviable to the BAs, recoilless rifles, gauss guns etc...they can do a lot of damage, but again you are suggesting that the Protos do the role as scouts, and I point out that they suck in that role, and BA do a much better job.
And seeing how you have HMBA, why don't you just tell us if they Elements can carry similar weapons load out...it would stifle an arguement and would be far eaiser in the long run.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
chez
01/28/05 01:08 PM
62.173.81.122
|
Quote "protomechs are 6m/20ft tall"
How tall is a normal mech? eg. wasp, hunchback and atlas
Because that sounds as if protos are the same size as mechs and yet are a fraction of their weight.
This sounds almost impossible unless protos are made out of cardboard-although given that I am raising this point with a materials engineer I may live to regret that statement. Still-If you don't ask , you don't get.
Also if protos can do everything a light mech can surely the same technology can be used to upgrade light mechs into "heavy protomechs". After all I have never seen a mech with micro-lasers and LRM3s etc.How good a 20 ton protomech could you make? (i really don't know as protos are a new find for me hence the thread  )
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
|
Karagin
01/28/05 01:16 PM
65.129.167.115
|
Quote:
I think I will support Cray on this one.
Great. I still stick to my point that BA can do the same job Cray is suggesting, aka scouting and recon for Protos and do it better and cheaper.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
01/28/05 01:17 PM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
How tall is a normal mech? eg. wasp, hunchback and atlas
Because that sounds as if protos are the same size as mechs
Battlemechs average 10-12m/40ft tall. Protomechs are half battlemech size.
Quote:
This sounds almost impossible unless protos are made out of cardboard
Note: the 9-ton Blackhawk helicopter is wider, longer, and taller than the 70-ton Abrams tank. A Wasp is about the same size as an Atlas.
Quote:
Also if protos can do everything a light mech can surely the same technology can be used to upgrade light mechs into "heavy protomechs".
You sure you'd want to do that? Battlemechs determine engine rating based on their walking speed. Protomechs base it on their running speed. A 20-ton Wasp with 6/9 movement has a 120-rated engine; a 20-ton protomech would have a 180-rated engine.
Further, Protomechs have certain items that ONLY work because of their small size. When you scale protomechs up to battlemech size, you get...battlemechs.
Quote:
After all I have never seen a mech with micro-lasers
Microlasers are available to Clan battlemechs. They're a standard Battletech Master Rules item for any Clan unit.
Quote:
and LRM3s etc.
Odd-sized missile launchers are a protomech/battle armor-only option at the current time.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:26 PM
168.209.97.34
|
Okay, let me re-phrase my support of Cray: I support the (very unClan-like) use of Protos as harassers and guerilla fighters, that have the ability to also perform to specs in the recon role. Sure - BA's are cheaper, but unless you are using mimetic designs like the Purifier and such, BA's offer very little advantage not being hit by weapons fire. They only get a +1 modifer for being spread out, compared to the possibilities of getting a "Near Miss" with the Protos. Protos are also faster, and although I am not very familiar with the use of BA's when it comes to exotice terrain types (water, magma, geysers, etc), I am sure the Protos will also be better.
Finally, coming to cost, the old saying of "If you want to do it, do it properly" will ring true here. Being Clan, these guys would rather invest once in an expensive Proto recon star than repeated investments of fragile BA's like the Sylph.
Evolve or Die
Edited by Silenced_Sonix (01/28/05 01:26 PM)
|
Karagin
01/28/05 01:30 PM
65.129.167.115
|
Cost...the BAs are cheaper then Protos...so in the longer run you can get more of them then you can of the Protos and the Clans aren't stupid, different but not stupid.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:32 PM
168.209.97.34
|
I know the difference is in the cost, but look at it this way: would you rather eat out of paper plates your entire life, or spend some money once-off to get some decent plates?
Evolve or Die
|
Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:37 PM
168.209.97.34
|
HAH! Look and weep:
Point of Elementals: 3,500,000 C-Bills
Cost per unit: 700,000 C-Bills
Cost of one Siren with 10/15/0 movement: 636, 974 C-Bills
Cost of one Satyr with 7/11/0 movement: 662, 688 C-Bills
Now try and tell me BA's are cheaper...
Evolve or Die
|
Cray
01/28/05 01:38 PM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
And seeing how you have HMBA, why don't you just tell us if they Elements can carry similar weapons load out...it would stifle an arguement and would be far eaiser in the long run.
It seems to be generally beneficial to let you find out for yourself hence my approach of "look it up yourself." If I told you, you'd have to accept my statement, which you don't always do. But, since you asked...
No Clan BA could manage 10 LRM tubes and 120 missiles. That's 1350kg for a BA, while the minimum weight of a 2-ton assault suit is 700kg (chassis), not touching the motive system or armor.
It does seem that BAs, with their severe weapon weight discount, can carry a small launcher (up to 5 tubes) with an appreciable ammo load, but there's not the cost savings you're reporting. For example:
This is an assault quad BA with an LRM-5 launcher, 10 salvos, and 3MP (ground) at about 700,000 C-bills per suit (not counting the 200K C-bill training for each trooper):
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,13075.0.html
This is an assault BA with 1 medium laser and 2MP (ground) at about 870,000 C-bills:
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,11580.0.html
This is a 7-ton protomech with an LRM 5, 18 salvos, an ER micro laser, and 5/8/5 movement at 810,000 C-bills:
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,12582.0.html
This is another 7-ton proto with 2 LRM 2s (10 shots/e), an LRM 4 (10 shots), an ER Small laser, and 4/6/0 movement for 820,000 C-bills:
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,12580.0.html
I can look up additional examples. Suits CAN get cheaper, like this low-tech design with a medium recoiless rifle, 2MP (ground), and 5 armor points for 335,000 C-bills...
http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php/topic,11118.0.html
...but the cost savings are not high compared to protomechs, a maximum of about a factor of 2. I think protomechs can be designed to outperform BA to make the cost worthwhile. Note that protomechs and BAs with similar weapon loads tend to have similar costs, while the protos have more armor and speed.
Quote:
The point is the BA can do the role of scout just as well if not as better as the protos
Aside from BA stealth armor options, how do you figure a unit as slow as battle armor can make a decent scout?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
01/28/05 01:40 PM
65.129.167.115
|
What I would rather have is fine china, but that isn't in the cards.
I can get more done with hundreds of BA then a few a Protos.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
01/28/05 01:41 PM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
Finally, coming to cost, the old saying of "If you want to do it, do it properly" will ring true here.
Er...actually, you're forgetting the conservatism streak in Clans. But, once again, I'm running into my NDA here. Just note that the Clans did not adopt protomechs en masse.
Protomechs, especially the low tech protos I posted on HMPro's forums, would be very well suited for the Periphery's and Inner Sphere's tactics, but not the Clans'.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
01/28/05 01:42 PM
65.129.167.115
|
I have found that BAs work better as scouts then Protos and given that, I won't use or advocate Protos in the role as scouts.
Speed is important, but NOT being seen is just as important.
So that's where I stand.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:47 PM
168.209.97.34
|
Well, with the Protos it is a case of "Not Being Hit" - moving at 15 hexes per turn is not exactly an easy target now, is it? Besides, they also have useful scouting/spotting equipment like active proves, which any commander should prefer over tin-encased guys with rockets strapped to their heels.
Evolve or Die
|
Cray
01/28/05 01:47 PM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
Speed is important, but NOT being seen is just as important.
Well, I'll grant IS BAs certainly have outstanding stealth options compared to Clan protomechs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
01/28/05 01:48 PM
65.129.167.115
|
So on that note, we can agree that our ideas of what unit makes good scout differ and leave it at that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 01:51 PM
168.209.97.34
|
... All right, before we come to blows.
Evolve or Die
|
Cray
01/28/05 01:57 PM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
So on that note, we can agree that our ideas of what unit makes good scout differ and leave it at that.
Actually, now that I think I understand you're pointing out the stealth options of BAs (yes?), I kinda agree with you. Sneaky little bastards have their place in scouting duties, if they're available.
Though Clan BAs don't have those sneak options available, I don't think, just ECM...which Clan protos can carry.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Wraith
01/28/05 02:14 PM
129.101.55.124
|
Makes ya think that maybe the cost of protomechs is broken?
-Wraith
|
Greyslayer
01/28/05 02:50 PM
216.14.192.234
|
Quote:
I have found that BAs work better as scouts then Protos and given that, I won't use or advocate Protos in the role as scouts.
How have you found this? You seem to struggle with the fundamentals of protos, have no knowledge of the prices of the units or what both sides are capable of carrying.
While protos were introduced as a mechanism to scrape in more money for fasa than any really well thought out progression of the timeline, it doesn't mean they are automatically weaker than BA in the role of scouting etc.
Quote:
Speed is important, but NOT being seen is just as important.
For the clans, importance would be on the speed. A scouting force ahead of a force that can quickly recon an area without the wasting of mech resources and be able to engage in a skirmishing capacity rather than being 'stopbutts' for long-ranged weapons (I would call elementals falling targets in this situation) would appeal to that faction's method of operation. Clan battle armour don't hide their movement, once they get to a location they can hide easy but the difference in time so could the protos anyway.
|
Karagin
01/28/05 03:14 PM
65.129.164.85
|
Sigh...why is it that if one has a different take on what a unit or design is good at you attack them?
To answer your question, let's see basic military tactical doctrine for staters, talking to folk WHO are scouts (ie 19D is the US Army MOS for them) and reading books on the subject as well actually using elementals in the role in games before. How about you?
Protos as written, have problems, they cost more then their BS cousins and over all NOT worth it for any Clan that is dire need of units.
And it seems since you want to point out how things should be, Clans wouldn't use scouts since they would simplely challegene any enemy to a duel and be done with it. That is if you are playing them as fully written.
So how about you stop with flame baiting, and try to add to the topic without turning it into a war? So far Cray and I have tossed our take on things round and we each put out what we think is better, and so far nothing of any kind of personal or other kind of attack has been launched till you chimed in. So please don't go down that road.
I don't think protos make good scouts mainly do to size and cost, I am more in favor of BA doing that job, leave Protos as fast attack units to exploit any holes the BAs find. Then TOGETHER the two dash behind the enemy and do what damage they can.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
01/28/05 03:24 PM
65.129.164.85
|
One unit vs 5 BAs...seems you get more for your money with the BAs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Wraith
01/28/05 03:41 PM
129.101.55.124
|
Ah, Karagin, Protos are cheaper by his post:
Point of Elementals: 3,500,000 C-Bills
Cost per unit: 700,000 C-Bills
Cost of one Siren with 10/15/0 movement: 636, 974 C-Bills
Cost of one Satyr with 7/11/0 movement: 662, 688 C-Bills
Each elemental is 700,000 C-bills. The point of five is 3.5 million...
-Wraith
|
Karagin
01/28/05 04:24 PM
65.129.164.85
|
Two protos are cheaper NOT all of them, in the long run the elementals are cheaper, because the Protos are a limited in supply and need need a different geno type then the BA.
So we have two protos that cost less then a single BA. Okay now if the logical think as pointed out would mean that the Clans should not make any more BA and go with the these two Protos. Bu they don't and again I point out, that the lack of seeing protos in MWDA means this a dead end technology that could and should have, ended up like the LAMs. Now if they ever allow Protos in to MWDA then the units were meant to be in the game.
So on a volume buying the elementals seems to win out, given that you are getting then faster and easier then the Protos. We should take into account WHICH clans have them [PROTOS] and how many factories are making the "suits".
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Wraith
01/28/05 04:59 PM
129.101.55.124
|
True, the cost of warriors must be accounted for. But there's no way to do so in the game... Especially since the EI will cause the proto pilots to go insane eventually (like certain people must have to have allowed Protos to be put into the game)...
-Wraith
|
Silenced_Sonix
01/28/05 05:56 PM
168.209.97.34
|
Just for the record, here are all of the Proto costs: only when exceeding 700,000 C-Bills apiece are they more expensive than Elementals.
Harpy: 614,559
Siren: 636,974
Satyr: 662,688
Centaur: 727,020
Hydra: 757,927
Roc: 839,388
Gorgon: 871,902
Minotaur: 946,556
Only the first three are cheaper than BA's, but then again, only the first three are likely to be used in the scouting role.
Karagin: I really do not mean to belittle your knowledge of BattleTech, but do you know anything about these Protos at all? And please: do not use their lack of show in MWDA (which everyone seemed to hate last time I checked, so why their word should be Law now seems really odd to me...) as an excuse - it bears no relevance to the topic.
Evolve or Die
|
Karagin
01/28/05 06:19 PM
65.129.165.196
|
I know how to make them and how to play against them and how to use them. Beyond that the only thing else know is what I have read in the books.
So what does this, your question have any relevance on the topic as well? I take it a belittling since you are suggesting that I know nothing about the Protos. When in fact I do. So to avoid a flame war I will take you apologie and leave it at that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Wraith
01/28/05 06:31 PM
129.101.55.124
|
I'm glad I started coming to the BT boards here, instead of just the Neveron section; much more exciting here... I still remember the Nadin/Karagin/Jonathan "Becky" Stuart/Bob Richter flame wars 
-Wraith
Edited by Wraith (01/28/05 06:32 PM)
|
Cray
01/28/05 08:12 PM
24.165.245.77
|
Quote:
Two protos are cheaper NOT all of them,
But a lot of them are, or nearly so. The priciest BA I've posted is still under 1 million C-bills.
Quote:
Bu they don't and again I point out, that the lack of seeing protos in MWDA means this a dead end technology that could and should have, ended up like the LAMs.
There's more protos coming out in Combat Equipment Guide, as is the explanation for why they're unpopular with the Clans. It isn't technical, it's cultural.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Silenced_Sonix
01/29/05 01:03 AM
168.209.97.34
|
Karagin, I was just curious as to how someone who claims to know everything about these Protos would persistently go on about about BA's being cheaper when, in fact, they are not always.
As for the MWDA: I also found it curious that while no-one seems to like MWDA and the way the story goes, its storyline (which also had to stand much abuse) is now suddenly good enough to be used as base/proof of your argument.
But fine, we will leave it at that.
PS: apologies work best when they come freely - not when demanded.
Evolve or Die
|
Nightward
01/29/05 03:08 AM
203.214.144.82
|
I dunno. I negotiated a ceasefire between Karagin and Bob, and it worked for a little while.
All of three posts, IIRC :P (Actually, I think it worked for a few weeks, but then both of them picked up their +3 Flaming Burst Greatswords of Trollslaying and went at it again.)
Nah. The Great Sarna Flamewars are, thankfully, a thing of the past.
As an aside, I already explained why we haven't seen Protos in the MW: DA setting yet.
The books concentrate on the Republic of the Sphere. In the time since Operations Bulldog and Serpent, the Lyran Alliance might have been able to get the ASF phenotype up and running (they have Clanners handy) and might be able to get EI happening. Maybe. And they have the Proto scematics.
Maybe they could have deployed a few Protos of their own. Maybe. It's not likely.
The Clans that do possess ProtoMech technology haven't appeared in the storyline, and nor are they likely to in the immediate future.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
chez
01/29/05 09:07 AM
62.173.81.122
|
Is it me or are things getting a bit warm in here
To sum up :-
Some protos are cheaper than BA some are not
Some people think that protos would be better in a scouting role than BA some people vehemently disagree.
I did discover that a proto has to take it's engine size from it's running speed
And that the pilot is a failed aerojock, but EI was never defined.
All I wanted was a little more background info on protos, logged out for 24 hours and ......WOW!!
Stay tuned for my next electronic version of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand . And yes I am fully aware that the Great Powers of 1914 would have ended up fighting sooner or later anyway.Human nature is just great isn't it
Chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
|
Wraith
01/29/05 11:27 AM
68.67.32.114
|
Pg. 188 of TRO 3060: "The technological advance that finally made the ProtoMech viable was the advent of enhanced imaging (EI).
-Wraith
|
Greyslayer
01/29/05 12:41 PM
216.14.192.234
|
Quote:
Just for the record, here are all of the Proto costs: only when exceeding 700,000 C-Bills apiece are they more expensive than Elementals.
What are the prices of the other elemental suits fielded by the clans if I may ask? This would probably help to make a decent comparison since we are using multiple proto units to prove a point... lets see if the elemental price is consistant.
|
Greyslayer
01/29/05 01:36 PM
216.14.192.234
|
Quote:
Sigh...why is it that if one has a different take on what a unit or design is good at you attack them?
Its not an attack if the person can prove their POV (not to prove someone else wrong but rather their POV is a valid one, both side can still disagree just accept their respective POVs) is valid rather than just an unseeing rant.
Quote:
To answer your question, let's see basic military tactical doctrine for staters, talking to folk WHO are scouts (ie 19D is the US Army MOS for them) and reading books on the subject as well actually using elementals in the role in games before. How about you?
Well if you want to bring real life into this gaming universe, fine. I served in a RECON unit in the Australian Army. Now that all that pathetic chest-beating of over, back to fiction.
I'm not the RPG expert for btech. I'm more a tourney tactical/strategic expert in the game and as such I would need far better information than what you have come up with as to how a single suit of a BA is better than a Protomech. Remember 5 protomechs make a point just like 5 battlearmours do. The one main advantage I can see of battlearmour is that they can be effective engineers, so as a commander I would not totally leave them out of a force.
Quote:
Protos as written, have problems, they cost more then their BS cousins and over all NOT worth it for any Clan that is dire need of units.
Some, as have been proven, are CHEAPER. You are yet to prove how they are 'Not worth it'. At a strategic level I can think of several ways they are less effective over a battlearmour but apart from the engineering comment above I won't be holding your hand to help you come up with more.
Quote:
And it seems since you want to point out how things should be, Clans wouldn't use scouts since they would simplely challegene any enemy to a duel and be done with it. That is if you are playing them as fully written.
I suppose that is why the Koshi has a beagle probe? The reason they 'just challenged' was that they already knew the forces they were coming up against. Later novels (which I assume you have read) indicate that they do in fact use scouts. Even in Tuk, they used light clusters to screen ahead of the main body. these were usually recon configured mechs and elementals, why? because they were not certain of the forces they were facing thus they had to scout ahead.
Quote:
So how about you stop with flame baiting, and try to add to the topic without turning it into a war? So far Cray and I have tossed our take on things round and we each put out what we think is better, and so far nothing of any kind of personal or other kind of attack has been launched till you chimed in. So please don't go down that road.
I think you just insulted all the trolls out there. I just think you have cornered yourself with poor arguments and now you are playing the victim.
Quote:
I don't think protos make good scouts mainly do to size and cost, I am more in favor of BA doing that job, leave Protos as fast attack units to exploit any holes the BAs find. Then TOGETHER the two dash behind the enemy and do what damage they can.
Elementals don't 'dash' behind enemy lines. They struggle to keep up with assault mechs, if you mean by being driven there by Dashers then my bad (lol).
Size: for the board game they are both level 1 in height.
Price: they are remarkably similar in price for their equipment. The price of the warrior may or may not prove the difference.
As for effective job, if the BA detect something they don't like, it not as though they are going to get away without a mech or vehicle picking them up. Not really that good for a scout. jammed communications would make these slow units useless for scouting since they may never be able to get a communication off. Meanwhile Protos have the speed to get away from heavy units and the firepower to hinder lighter units giving them time to raise a warning or assist in redirecting assets.
BAs are better for OP work (observation post) than protos as they are harder to detect hidden. Perhaps that is what you are meaning, after the Protos have scouted the area for enemies first of course
|
Karagin
01/29/05 05:02 PM
65.132.126.68
|
Taking into count the idea that the tech for Protos is limited, thus harder for the Clans to make and use as well as the geno type being less likely to there for the other Clans, as well as retraing of the pilots to run the Protos adds more to the over all cost. Meanwhile BA is cheaper, and after looking at all of the CANON Protos, only two are cheaper then a single BA, so in the long run BAs are cheaper.
For the record I never claimed, unlike some, to be the know it all about the Protos, I said I have read the rules, and what info there is on them, beyond that having used them a few times isn't making me or anyone else an expert.
But thank you for trying to say that I was, I am flattered that you feel that I know so much about them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
01/29/05 05:33 PM
65.132.126.68
|
Greyslayer if someone doesn't agree with a POV of someone else doesn't make them wrong. You play the game how you want with what you want, and I and every one else will play as we want.
I pointed out the BAs are cheaper since they are a proven tech and unit, and that to me they make better scouts and that is where I have had better results then with Protos.
Beyond that I am not sure were the topic went south, but that is what we were talking about. Protos vs BA as scouts and recon. Beyond that the rest flame baiting and personl slams can be drop otherwise neither of us are doing anything but spinning our wheels.
Now can we go back to the topic or do you want to countine with the grade school sillyness?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
01/29/05 05:38 PM
203.214.144.167
|
The other types are all fairly comparable.
Gnomes: 1,050,000 ea
Salamanders: 665,000 ea
Undines: 700,000 ea
Sylphs: 700,000 ea.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Nightward
01/29/05 05:53 PM
203.214.144.167
|
Sigh.
Different units, different applications.
Battle Armour? Head hunters. Some fast, some not. Some heavily armed and armoured, some not. Some expensive, some not. Combat drop them in. Ablative armour on 'Mechs. Able to knock off lighter 'Mechs and annoy heavier ones.
Protos? Bridge the gap between BA and Light 'Mechs. Some fast, some not. Some heavily armed and armoured, some not. Some expensive, some not. Use them as you would giant Elementals.
You'd think the Clans would use their WarShips and ASFs for recon any way, but apparently that made too much sense for FASA or anyone else.
Eh.
The only Clan that's really jumped on the ProtoMech concept is Clan Blood Spirit. This Clan is unusual in that they have more men than machines. Only the very, very best warriors make it; the rest are relegated to the lower castes. Even so, hose castemen are probably better than a number of warriors from other Clans, due simply to the fact they survived the Spirit's insane training demands.
The spirits want 'Mechs, but don't have the resources. On the other hand, they have a ready supply of "failed" ASF pilots who (remembering that they're Blood Spirits) are perfectly happy to go Kamikaze and get IE implants.
The Spirits are probably the only Clan that will develop the ProtoMech concept to any form of extreme.
The other Clans regard them as interesting, but are probably likely to only toy with them, if they deploy them at all. After all, they're a bizzarre new creation, and Clan society doesn't really like that sort of thing.
As an aside, the Clans do possess the means to counter EI-induced insanity. They just choose not to bother with it, since probably only sub-par, overly zealous, or slightly deranged pilots are opting for the procedure any way. They might as well get rid of them now and take advantage of what EI has to offer in the doing.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
01/29/05 07:24 PM
65.129.166.111
|
So far what you have posted is what I support.
I like BA as scouts and leave Protos as oddball units that are on the level as LAMs, that is up to me.
Over all the idea is to have fun is it not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
davion76
01/30/05 02:23 AM
12.219.244.44
|
BA have other advantages.... like entering buildings. Could be vicious in a city battle. They can pull double duty as Marines for dropships/warships. etc
|
Greyslayer
01/31/05 03:59 AM
216.14.192.234
|
If anyone takes offence to the following I will apologise beforehand. I'm not trying to be offensive here, just showing how wrong one can be.
Quote:
Meanwhile BA is cheaper, and after looking at all of the CANON Protos, only two are cheaper then a single BA, so in the long run BAs are cheaper.
From Silenced Sonix well before this post:
Harpy: 614,559
Siren: 636,974
Satyr: 662,688
Centaur: 727,020
Hydra: 757,927
Roc: 839,388
Gorgon: 871,902
Minotaur: 946,556
Quote:
For the record I never claimed, unlike some, to be the know it all about the Protos, I said I have read the rules, and what info there is on them, beyond that having used them a few times isn't making me or anyone else an expert.
Thank goodness for that.
Also for the record I asked for information on Clan BA prices (no point in saying only using stock elementals against all different types of Protos when other versions of BA exist in the clans). Here is what Nightward posted:
Gnomes: 1,050,000 ea
Salamanders: 665,000 ea
Undines: 700,000 ea
Sylphs: 700,000 ea.
So not only are some Protos cheaper than the cheapest CANON BAs but Cheaper than the most expensive BAs as well. You must admit that the bit 'and after looking at all of the CANON Protos, only two are cheaper then a single BA, so in the long run BAs are cheaper' when in fact Wraith only posted two and did not say they were the only ones that were makes you look a little silly. If that post was your 'looking at all of the CANON Protos' then it was pretty ordinary research as there are at least THREE canon Protos cheaper (chassis, since there are canon variants about for most of the Protos) than the Base Clan Elemental unit.
You have been wondering why I have been on your back recently. Well its been shown above, the clear and easy to document lack of evidence used to back your claims up. You automatically assume something without, what seems to the reader, much research and to make matters worse you don't indicate that there is any chance of you being wrong (ie a person not certain or understanding that something may exist to prove them wrong would perhaps use words that would not paint themselves into a corner later such as you have).
Lets look at the post you gave and modify it slightly to take the 'I know all' look from it:
Taking into account the idea that the tech for Protos is, as far as I know, limited, thus most probably harder for the Clans to make and use as well as the genotype being less likely to be there for the other Clans, as well as retraining of the pilots to run the Protos should add more to the over all cost. Meanwhile BA on average are generally cheaper per unit, and after looking at all of the information I have on Protos, I can only find two that are cheaper then a single elemental, so in the long run elementals are more likely cheaper overall.
We now know the above is incorrect but it doesn't come across as you saying 'this is how it is' when in fact it isn't.
|
Karagin
01/31/05 06:58 PM
65.132.126.249
|
How can anyone be wrong on an idea of what makes a better scout for this game?
Sorry but you are doing nothing but attacking and trying hard to turn what should be a simple understand of different opinions on things into a flame war or worse.
Now even if three protos are cheaper then their BA counterparts singlely, that still dose not invaildate the idea that BA tech is proven and works, were as Proto tech is new and has flaws as well as other things working against it and not every Clan is going to be set upon using it. Just as most of the Clans have issues with nukes, one of them didn't, doesn't mean every Clan tosses them around just because they can.
Bottomline here is I don't agree with you and you don't like that, as to why I am not sure, but it's become pointless since you won't even entertain any other take on something.
Now I never claimed to be correct, I stated that BA is cheaperin the long run for them, which I stand by.
Thank you for point out that you want to argue for argument sake. I guess that is up to you if that is how you want to be about this topic. I am done with it. I have stated my take on the matter, you don't like it and that is fine. I will play HOW want and that is that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
01/31/05 09:39 PM
203.214.147.117
|
But BA is not cheaper in the long run.
Elementals have the shortest life expectancy of any Clan phenotype, simply because of what they do. Each time one of them falls (how hard is it, really, to do 11 damage?), you have to breed, train up, and re-deploy another Elemental.
A ProtoMech, on the other hand, has Internal Structure-like a 'Mech- and can reasonably expect to survive longer than an Elemental.
I really doubt that the repair costs on ProtoMechs would compare with the constant turnover of Elementals.
Arguing price will get you nowhere in this, Karagin, because you are wrong. The numbers do not lie.
Arguing whether or not deploying them as scouts is a good idea is a valid point, but here people's opinions differ.
Either construct a decent argument, or let the matter drop.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
02/01/05 12:33 AM
65.129.164.42
|
It is done as far as I am concerned.
I will stick to using BAs over Protos. End of story.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Greyslayer
02/01/05 01:54 AM
216.14.192.234
|
Quote:
But BA is not cheaper in the long run.
Elementals have the shortest life expectancy of any Clan phenotype, simply because of what they do. Each time one of them falls (how hard is it, really, to do 11 damage?), you have to breed, train up, and re-deploy another Elemental.
And imagine how much those big guys eat, sheesh I knew a guy in the army that was on double rations just to survive... a big boy and nowhere near as big as an elemental (for the record he was so big he couldn't do chinups as his head would get in the way of his bulging shoulders). Also note that elementals also have access to EI, this isn't limited to Protos you know.
Quote:
A ProtoMech, on the other hand, has Internal Structure-like a 'Mech- and can reasonably expect to survive longer than an Elemental.
Maxtech have rules to further 'nerf' elementals thus making Protos more powerful (glancing blows in Maxtech probably help Protos even more) in comparison to battlearmour. Though if using Maxtech you may as well use vehicles over either.
Quote:
I really doubt that the repair costs on ProtoMechs would compare with the constant turnover of Elementals.
Main difference between salvaging these guys and a normal mech is that you need to hose the centre torso out instead of the head
Quote:
Arguing price will get you nowhere in this, Karagin, because you are wrong. The numbers do not lie.
Ignorance is bliss. I haven't seen him quote a source, or even quote areas he believes are incorrect. When shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is incorrect there is no acknoledgement instead just claims of 'flamebaiting' and arguing for the sake of it. Believe me, I prefer not to argue with (what seems to be) the mathematically challenged. Why do you think I did the trying to calculate a better than BV system, or the study into the best LRM launchers?
Quote:
Arguing whether or not deploying them as scouts is a good idea is a valid point, but here people's opinions differ.
Instead of valid arguments he tried to pull my personal experience into things not realising I was in a recon unit when I was in the military... Really, both have specialisations within the scouting (recon) field. Going building to building then obviously Elementals would smash the Protos for effectiveness, but in the open or even light woods then elementals are very ineffective as a scout unit. The fact that Protos can more easily accomodate ECM and Probe equipment than a BA also indicates a serious advantage in this area. This still doesn't make BAs useless, just less the scouting specialist for all situations (and as I said I would still keep them about as engineers if anything else). Someone else mentioned their use as marines on ships, again a valid point.
Quote:
Either construct a decent argument, or let the matter drop.
Couldn't agree more. More should be expected from someone with such a long history with this forum.
|
Silenced_Sonix
02/01/05 01:06 PM
168.209.97.34
|
Here is a question for the guy that was in the recon unit: if you could choose between
a) being unseen 90% of the time, but not being able to get out of the way once you are spotted, and
b) being more visible, but having the speed and maneuverability to kick dust in the face of anything that tries to give you trouble,
which would you pick? Because that is basically the question here when it comes to the scouting differences between the BA's and the Protos.
Comment on earlier remark by Karagin: the phenotype used for the Protos is the same - that is, standard - aerospace phenotype. How would this be more difficult for the Clans to obtain as you stated earlier?
Evolve or Die
|
Nightward
02/01/05 04:18 PM
203.214.144.143
|
Yeah, except that wasn't happening either. As Scott will tell you, I have a thing for Shadow Hawks and often deploy them even when doing so is a stupid choice to make.
A player's personal preferences are a valid point, but only insofar as they recognise that not evryone will share it.
Karagin, Greyslayer, and Cray were all playing a Tweedledee and Tweedledum am too/ are not competition.
This thread is probably up to 7 or 8 pages in flat mode, but it really served its purpose after the first few replies. An extended flamewar (or near flamewar) over the issue is pointless.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Gnome76
02/01/05 05:31 PM
68.0.125.156
|
If I recall correctly, somebody mentioned that the price of an Elemental's training was 200,000 Cb.
If ProtoMech pilots were previously trained as fighter pilots, shouldn't we take into account the cost of the fighter training as well as the ProtoMech training? Also, the cost and healing time for the EI surgery is required for ProtoMech pilots, but optional for Elementals.
|
davion76
02/02/05 12:40 AM
12.219.244.44
|
the cost of the previous fighter training is irrelevant b/c the guy would have been relegated to a lower caste. So the difference is between making no use of money paid and getting something from it. EG, there is no marginal cost.
As for the cost of protomech training - definitely. As well as the surgery costs of EI.....
|
Greyslayer
02/02/05 01:09 AM
216.14.192.234
|
Quote:
Here is a question for the guy that was in the recon unit: if you could choose between
a) being unseen 90% of the time, but not being able to get out of the way once you are spotted, and
b) being more visible, but having the speed and maneuverability to kick dust in the face of anything that tries to give you trouble,
a) is 100% detectable if mobile, unless of course they somehow end up with ECM (goodbye being able to fire back in anger though in some cases for that swap out). Its only when they stop when and they are not seen at that time that they are 90% undectable.
In the rules BOTH are the same height (level 1, same as vehicles). In a roleplaying setting this will probably change. I've also posted where the advantages lie in one or the other. I recognise neither one nor the other as supreme scout or recon units, I took offence to the believed outright superiority of BAs over Protos in scouting. If that can be proven then I would have no problems. Instead I was asked for my qualifications in making such a statement (I needed none since battletech is not real life). Once I indicated that I have real life experience then that tac was dropped.
Quote:
which would you pick? Because that is basically the question here when it comes to the scouting differences between the BA's and the Protos.
Probably what was truly asked is what provides the best scouting bang for your buck. Protos go up to 1m each but the ones you would be using for scouting are about 700k or less. They are quick and can handle extra equipment like sensors and ecm gear as well as weapons. BAs price up to and over 1m, generally though Gnomes would be wasted in such a position and they are too slow (though at least there is a chance to return fire before dieing if they are found out) so that would leave the others at about 700k. Slow and generally not carrying much in the way of equipment associated with scouting in battletech they do have other advantages:
- infantry movement through buildings.
- unless playing Maxtech rules they pretty much cannot be detected if they are already hidden.
so they are better in urban situations and in OPs (observation posts) than protos.
What would I have out in front of a clan force would depend on the area ahead. Obviously if we were entering a city or urban areas BAs would be out front since the main body wouldn't be moving that fast. But in more open areas having a mobile force out front of the main group would be more important as well as the detection capabilities they would provide, Protos for mind.
Quote:
Comment on earlier remark by Karagin: the phenotype used for the Protos is the same - that is, standard - aerospace phenotype. How would this be more difficult for the Clans to obtain as you stated earlier?
The main restriction in this situation is the availability of Aerospace dropouts. I'd never really thought that there would be that many that would survive their trials and not succeed. I would personally always limit the number of Protos available due to this and the fact you generally don't 'stockpile' them since they go crazy due to the implants. Apart from that they cost you very little since all they were going to become were astechs anyway. They are a recycled resource not a manufactured one.
To continue with this the cost for a single elemental might involve the costs for all those that have failed as well ie the cost to get 1 succesfull elemental would be about 200,000. The price for a failed aerospace pilot would be 0 since the price of a successful aerospace pilot has already taken the price of the failed aerospace pilot into account. You just need the price for the EI and resources to keep the person. At least that is my look at it.
|