Karagin
07/30/05 04:06 PM
63.157.58.209
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Okay, here is something I think we can toss around and discuss, what would have happen to ComStar IF the FedCom refused to hand over some of the HPGs that it took control of when it found about Operation Scorpion?
Would they (ComStar) have attacked the FedCom to get them back or would they have come to an agreement or trade of something the FedCom wanted to get the stations back? Or would they have cut the stations out of the network and written them off?
Also if the FedCom got to keep these stations what would it mean for them in the long run?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
07/30/05 10:10 PM
24.165.245.77
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Would they (ComStar) have attacked the FedCom to get them back
No, not the post-Scorpion Comstar. The radical mystic leadership of Comstar that launched Operation Scorpion got a bullet in the head and was replaced by a secular leadership (the ex-Lyran Focht).
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or would they have come to an agreement or trade of something the FedCom wanted to get the stations back?
The new Comstar would've probably tried to trade for the HPGs, I'm sure.
The question is about the FedCom leadership. It's done something different than in canon, and there's a reason for the new policy to keep some HPGs. What is that reason?
Depending on the reason, the FedCom may or may not trade the HPGs back. For example, if Hanse Davion just wants some examples to reverse-engineer the HPGs, he'd probably trade the captured ones back to Comstar after a few years of study. OTOH, if Hanse Davion was trying to punish Comstar...well, maybe, maybe not. When Comstar's behavior changes and Focht leads Comstar to a more open, warm 'n fuzzy behavior, maybe Hanse would give up the punishment approach.
Did you have a preference for the reason that the FedCom decided to keep the HPGs? You're the author on this scenario.
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Or would they have cut the stations out of the network and written them off?
I think that would've happened in most cases.
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Also if the FedCom got to keep these stations what would it mean for them in the long run?
What does it do with them? Try to operate them and nothing else? Reverse-engineer them?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
07/31/05 12:11 AM
63.157.59.47
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What I am looking for is ideas from the folks here on what they see as reason the FC would give them (the HPGs) back to ComStar and what would happen if they didn't.
The only real reason I could for them to keep them is to remove the threat that is ComStar it's hold on interstellar communication. the FedCom with the help NAIS would be all over getting to reverse engineer them or even build one, so the idea that they were handed back over never made much since to me.
The last question is more of this IF the FedCom kept the HPGs what would that give them in the long run as far as gaining the advantage of their own HPG network versus what remains of the ComStar one...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
07/31/05 11:16 AM
24.165.245.77
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The only real reason I could for them to keep them is to remove the threat that is ComStar it's hold on interstellar communication. the FedCom with the help NAIS would be all over getting to reverse engineer them or even build one, so the idea that they were handed back over never made much since to me.
Don't quote me on this, but I think all the Houses DID reverse-engineer HPGs as a result of Operation Scorpion. They handed the old HPGs back to Comstar afterward just because they no longer needed them and it minimized diplomatic flak from Comstar.
They left Comstar generally in charge of the HPG network because if individual Houses started churning out HPGs and operating their own HPG networks, the inviolable status of HPGs would be lost. I mean, Operation Scorpion didn't really help the neutrality of Comstar but...well, consider the next time two Houses squabbled. If the HPGs belonged to a third faction (e.g., Comstar), so long as that faction stayed uninvolved in the conflict, the two combatants would try to avoid the HPGs just like they'd avoid the diplomatic estates of other non-combatant factions. But if the HPGs belonged to the two combatants, they'd be fair game like other C4I facilities.
I'm checking to see if Houses can build HPGs as a result of Operation Scorpion. I'm not sure I'm correct about that. If I'm wrong, then you can forget the previous answers I've given in this thread.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nimon
08/01/05 01:23 PM
64.95.219.124
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I thought that Davion did not, but the Steiner Marriage brought the HPG knowledge that they had over to NASI where Hanse worked on it more. A captured working model would have jsut helped to verify that thier proto types and such were viable or to amke sure that the proper hardware was avalible.
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Toontje
08/02/05 06:28 AM
84.24.165.226
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I'd say none of the houses knew how to maintain the stations, and the black box FAX was not as effective as the HPG's to transfer bulk information. See the comments on the distress the 4th SW put on both FS and LC economy due to lack of comm and transportations for civilian purposes.
Who can afford to be in the dark when your enemy allies with comstar, gets good communications, and you can barely give orders to your troops with a month or 2 delay?
Rather to blow up, then.
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Cray
08/02/05 06:53 PM
24.165.245.77
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Quote:
Don't quote me on this, but I think all the Houses DID reverse-engineer HPGs as a result of Operation Scorpion. They handed the old HPGs back to Comstar afterward just because they no longer needed them and it minimized diplomatic flak from Comstar.
Okay, apparently I was smoking crack. The Houses did not reverse-engineer HPGs after Operation Scorpion, which is why the HPGs were returned to new Comstar.
I'm a bit time-crunched, so I'll try to get back to this thread tomorrow.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
08/04/05 11:00 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
What I am looking for is ideas from the folks here on what they see as reason the FC would give them (the HPGs) back to ComStar and what would happen if they didn't.
Okay, since the House's did not canonically reverse-engineer HPGs, here's a proposed scenario:
Operation Scorpion occurs. However it occurs, it occurs in some fashion that's annoying enough for the Houses to seize and keep some, if not most, of Comstar's HPGs. Perhaps Scorpion is a bit more successful.
The new Comstar that grows out of the old is still Focht's baby, a secular and much nicer Comstar.
However, seeing Comstar's independent control of HPGs as a problem, the FedCom reverse engineers HPGs. It does this not so much to compete with Comstar as to threaten competition - "We can make HPGs, too, so think twice about that the next time you want to interdict us."
The new Comstar is in no position to gripe without blowing its new "nice guy" PR campaign, which is only possible in the FedCom with the government's support.
After reverse-engineering the HPGs and several years of stalling, the old HPGs are returned to Comstar control and the FedCom resumes normal Comstar HPG service. However, the FC builds chains of FC-run HPGs between critical region capitals and installs HPGs on its warships. It's understood that the FC-run HPGs would probably be vulnerable to foreign attack in the event of a war, unlike the Comstar HPGs, so the FC's HPG network is limited.
How's that?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Toontje
08/04/05 08:02 PM
84.24.165.226
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Always thought WS HPG's was clan and comstar only? So a HPG on a non-comstar WS would be served by comstar personel.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Cray
08/05/05 08:30 AM
147.160.136.10
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Always thought WS HPG's was clan and comstar only? So a HPG on a non-comstar WS would be served by comstar personel.
I was proposing an alternate history where the Houses (FC at least) reverse-engineered HPGs. Once you can build HPGs, you can operate them whether they're on a planet or warship.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nimon
08/05/05 11:55 AM
64.95.219.124
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Read your source books, Lyran Commonwealth did have HPGs I will look up the page number tonight. And this was BEFORE the 4th Succession War, so at least House Steiner had that tech (or at least a working knowledge of it)
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Cray
08/07/05 11:46 PM
68.200.110.190
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Read your source books, Lyran Commonwealth did have HPGs I will look up the page number tonight. And this was BEFORE the 4th Succession War, so at least House Steiner had that tech (or at least a working knowledge of it)
Okay, let me know. Which sourcebook, and which page?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nimon
08/11/05 11:08 AM
64.95.219.124
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Sorry it took so long, read through the whole House Steiner book again (I am more familiar with House Kurita)
Page 131 talks about the Lyrans getting to Comstar level tech in HPG technologies (that was about 12 years earlier than the 4th war give or take). But we all know that working prototypes are usually up and going long before then.
Page 141 talkes about how the Capellans are buying short range system to system communications (I assume this is only one jump away systems so to send a message across the empire would take a while).
Hope this helps some.
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Cray
08/12/05 08:26 AM
147.160.136.10
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Page 131 talks about the Lyrans getting to Comstar level tech in HPG technologies (that was about 12 years earlier than the 4th war give or take). But we all know that working prototypes are usually up and going long before then.
That's the original 1986ish House Steiner HB you're talking about?
From pg133 of the .pdf, under Commonwealth Threats to Comstar, "It is entirely possible that, barring a catastrophe or war, Lyran scientists will have recovered enough knowledge within the next 30 years to compromise our monopoly on interstellar communications. Indeed, if Tharkad University's Professor Lewis proves successful in his research into accelerated submeson bundling, this estimate could be dangerously inaccurate. His research threatens to expose the secret of our communications system, and so jeopardizes our very existence. If the highest ComStar officials decide in favor of a termination order for Professor Lewis, they will be entirely justified."
Since the Federated Commonwealth returned to Comstar for HPG service after Operation Scorpion in 3052, it seems the FedCom/Lyrans did not have HPGs ~25 years after the House Steiner HB was written in-universe.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nimon
08/12/05 10:03 AM
64.95.219.124
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That or the writers may have forgotten that they wrote that.
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Cray
08/12/05 09:14 PM
68.200.110.190
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That or the writers may have forgotten that they wrote that.
The House Steiner SB is so frequently referenced by writers (and, these days, by the dozens of factcheckers) that I really doubt it.
Instead, I suspect the idea was reviewed and dismissed while the 3050s-era novels and SBs were written.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (08/12/05 09:19 PM)
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Karagin
08/14/05 06:11 PM
63.157.57.188
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Is this the ORIGINAL House Stiener HOUSE BOOK or is it the new book that just came out?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/14/05 06:12 PM
63.157.57.188
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That never happens... :rollseyes:
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nimon
08/15/05 12:06 AM
70.242.6.124
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Orginal House Stiner book over 15 years old
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Cray
08/15/05 08:30 AM
147.160.136.10
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Hope this helps some.
Yes - it means the Lyrans weren't actually building HPGs in the 3020s.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nimon
08/15/05 02:05 PM
64.95.219.124
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but it does show that they were getting close and may haev had working prototypes.
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Cray
08/16/05 08:30 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
but it does show that they were getting close and may haev had working prototypes.
It shows Comstar (writers of the Steiner SB) thought the Lyrans were getting close in 3025. Given the lack of progress in the following 30 years, perhaps Comstar was wrong.
And that goes back to the topic at hand: the reason the FC might've held onto HPGs after Operation Scorpion was to reverse engineer them so post-Scorpion Comstar (good or bad) would not have had such a monopoly.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/17/05 03:55 PM
63.157.234.222
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Cray if the old house books are referenced then why does it seem that past events still are forgotten about? A grand example of this is the FedSuns messing around in the FWL prior to the 4th War as well as certain points and parts mentioned as to what companies are going belly up etc...the little things like that seem to have been forgotten.
Dimissed or forgotten it still speaks volumes of then TPTB and the errors they made and that now folks are so use to the mistakes or the forgetfulness that pointing out past events seems to shock the current batch of TPTB that we end up with flame wars or worse.
This whole topic is a key point, the idea was dropped or lost...either way they dropped the ball and never did anything with this story point just like countless others.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/17/05 04:01 PM
63.157.234.222
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Excellent point and given their big trade domains and such this would be of a major coup for them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/17/05 04:06 PM
63.157.234.222
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Not lack of progress, lack of follow through for the then PTB. They folks writting the game FORGOT what they had put in the house books and didn't use them to advance the events in the novels or vise versea and given that the change in leadership at the Line Developer level in the early to mid 90s to a person who didn't want to use any old "errornous" items from the past, more or less lead to the then current writers and such to not worry about older material.
Now we have a LD who does care about older items and is willing to use them to keep the story going forward.
Seeing how the issue we are talking about was never fully answered or explain so that the loopholes or question got answered we won't know unless Randall or someone finialy fills them in.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/17/05 04:10 PM
63.157.234.222
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Yes I know how old it is, having several copies of it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/18/05 08:25 AM
147.160.136.10
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Cray if the old house books are referenced then why does it seem that past events still are forgotten about?
Usually, because events overtake them, or there isn't page space to pick up the old plothooks.
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A grand example of this is the FedSuns messing around in the FWL prior to the 4th War
Which "messing around" are you talking about? The raid that Hanse Davion led to snag Goliath parts from the FWL?
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to what companies are going belly up
Which companies went belly-up? A lot of the new HBs mention companies that have had financial difficulties.
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This whole topic is a key point, the idea was dropped or lost...either way they dropped the ball and never did anything with this story point just like countless others.
When you need a whole sourcebook to explore one plot point (like the FedCom Civil War), there's only so many plot hooks you can explore. Since each sourcebook tends to drop dozens of plothooks, yes, a lot of them are going to get overlooked.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
08/18/05 08:37 AM
147.160.136.10
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Not lack of progress, lack of follow through for the then PTB.
It's a little more complex than that. Some of those old plot hooks - like Comstar thinking that the Lyrans were near to reinventing the HPG - were not forgotten, they were deliberately dismissed because they'd screw up the plans for the next several decades of the BT universe.
Those old Sourcebooks contradict each other, have erroneous data (like trying to say the Inner Sphere only has 2000 jumpships), and set in place canonical material that has done nothing but cause trouble to this day (like the population of the Inner Sphere, which should be much smaller for the given militaries).
There are times when you just have to blow off the old information to keep the plot line from collapsing. Even the "Powers That Be" who wrote the House Sourcebooks knew they had to ignore some of the SB ideas from time to time. The House SBs were written by the people who wrote the 4th SW, Clan Invasion, and Operation Scorpion - all events that would've been greatly changed if NAIS or the Lyrans had reinvented HPGs.
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Now we have a LD who does care about older items and is willing to use them to keep the story going forward.
Of course, Randall's also leading the charge to retcon discrepancies out of the old SBs. Those things are a nightmare of contradictions. Trying to fix Lyran history (which the old Marik and Lyran SBs couldn't agree on) was a lot of fun.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/18/05 10:19 AM
63.158.169.188
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Let's see, the messing around was the part mentioned where MIIO was causing trouble for the FWL by stirring up the population and running rampant in the FWL, yet it is forgotten and left out when later events pop up like the Mairk invasion of 57 etc...the raid for parts was on example. IF MIIO is or was messing around one would think they didn't just close shop and leave. But again the writters seem to have at the time forgotten that the fans can read and do read the sourcebooks.
Several of the House Books mentioned companies that were going bankrupt, and that other companies were buying them up, yet nothing else ever get's said one way or another on this topic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/18/05 10:30 AM
63.158.169.188
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Contradicting or not, they are printed facts for the game. For the then PTB to say that they will never use them because of that was wrong. Okay the Lyrans were working on HPG tech...that wouldn't have messed up anything since it could have be stated that while making some breakthroughs they hadn't yet gotten it to fully work, thus research goes on etc...yet NOTHING like that was done. It was dismissed as an error or forgotten. I don't things would have changed to much, if the Lyrans had gotten a working model of the HPG from their own efforts, they may have felt the cost wasn't worth it or maybe they kept it super secrete etc...the idea is that the line was dropped without anything done on it.
Fixing dates to make them mesh is one thing, rewritting whole chuncks of the established is not something that should be done. The House books were written by the ORIGINAL BT crew, yet when Nystul took over he made sure his opinions on the older material was well know and that his disliking of it was very much there for all to see, via his statements on the old FASA boards and letters and such to folks who were keeping older mechs alive and in sight.
At least Randall is trying and not out right dismissing them as Nystul did.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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davion76
08/18/05 04:32 PM
138.163.0.43
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I disagree that everything printed in the sourcebooks is "fact". The stuff presented in these sourcebooks was written by someone is comstar. It is sure to be full of errors os mistake, as well as error in intelligence and "fog of war". Additionally, the facts might have been presented in a way that twisted their true meaning, like so many do with research data today. [ T.O.: I'm only getting paid 4 mil a year for being the best WR in football. Eagles: You are getting a 10mil signing bonus this year, so you are getiing paid 14 mil for playing this year! T.O. My salary is 4 mil, so I'm getting paid 4 mil a year! .....]
Maybe the HPG technology that Steiner spourcebook relates to was the black boxes. Perhaps it was an early working copy of the Tharkard to Avalon links - and with astronomical costs of production or maintenance. Perhaps they killed all of the scientists working on HPG technology. Perhaps the person in charge of intelligence on the Steiner HPG efforts was a Kurita sympathizer who was feeding bad data to Comstar to put pressure on the Lyrans. Who knows? Anything could have caused either the data printed to be incorrect.
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Toontje
08/18/05 04:58 PM
84.24.165.226
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Quote:
Maybe the HPG technology that Steiner spourcebook relates to was the black boxes. Perhaps it was an early working copy of the Tharkard to Avalon links - and with astronomical costs of production or maintenance. Perhaps they killed all of the scientists working on HPG technology. Perhaps the person in charge of intelligence on the Steiner HPG efforts was a Kurita sympathizer who was feeding bad data to Comstar to put pressure on the Lyrans. Who knows? Anything could have caused either the data printed to be incorrect.
AFAIK it was comstar policy at that time to end undesirable researchers in a little container. With such devastating potential, ROM should prioritize his elimination.
Other possibility: With Katherine's return from the perifery to overthrow Alexandr, and some unknown tech, the researcher was able to construct the black box.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Karagin
08/19/05 12:31 AM
63.157.234.246
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The sourcebooks are the only "facts" the players have to go on. As to HOW they are written via in game setting isn't the point. The point is these books are there to give us the players the facts of a house or group, thus what is printed is indeed fact for that group or house.
And the other point is nothing was ever done to tie up the lose ends or even recall them to aknowledge that yes at one time group A was doing this to get around group R. It's details and paying attention to those details that can make or break things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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davion76
08/19/05 06:49 PM
138.163.0.37
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I agree that the sourcebooks are the only "facts" that the players to go on, but there are two major advantages to the style of writing they had back in the 80s (Eg from Comstar's perspective). 1) it allows GM's to chance the BT universe in small ways that help further their campaigns. 2) It allows FASA (or now Wizkids) to change their path of universe development if they realize a previous plothook isn't good for the BT universe.
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Karagin
08/19/05 10:32 PM
63.157.59.230
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I agree with both of your points, BUT nothing was ever done with dozens of plot lines and threads. I also know there are errors and areas that don't mesh fully from book to book, then again looking at the "history book" around the world there are going to be areas that don't mesh.
Changing plot lines is fine, forgetting about printed facts is wrong. We get an entire book plus some on info of very minor Periphery nations, yet they (TPTW or Are) can't do something similar to clear up two major points, one being what actually was done by the Suns and the Commonwealth when they had the HPGs and what all happen to the Lyrans research into HPG tech.
Maybe we will see Randall do something with the older stuff which would and is an excellent idea and something that I think would go a long way to helping keep the older fans interested and allow new players to see the older materials. The Historicals are an excellent step in the right directions and we knew more of them as well similar type books.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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