What has happened to BT?

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Countergod
10/25/06 04:43 AM
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Whew, okay first off, thank you for devoting so much time and effort to answering my questions O.O You're really doing a good job there. You're right, I'm getting most of my info from players, combined with a small smattering from one of my previous commandos (from about 4 years ago, so his info may have been way off too)

I gotta say i like the picture you're painting a lot better than the one that i had preimagined. It seems a lot more realistic and less uber-WoBish.

Its late, and im only going to ask one follow up question for now (ive been very busy these last few days :/) More will definitely come later.

If a mechline produces 14 battle mechs a year (lets say 16 just to make it exactly double my above estimation, and to account for a few advances in technology since 3025). It would take 5 years for the Lyran Alliance to replace its battle losses (mech wise, soldier wise may be another story) How can this be justified with the FM:U and FedCom Civil War estimates of decades?

Also, its been about 20 years since the first recovered tech units started to come out. How is it possible that in 20 years (again taking the lyran alliance example) that not all mechs are designs either fully upgraded with recovered tech, or mechs produced since 3051 (when 3050 was written to come out). The Lyran Alliance alone could have produced well over 150 mech regiments. God only knows how many upgrade kits could be produced with the weapons/technology base required to support that kind of industry.

Stemming from the above, I'm pretty sure that the Alliance has not lost over 100 mech regiments in the last 20 years. They lost 30 or so in the civil war, and maybe 40-50 in the clan war. They should have had well over 100 before the civil war and reasonably still 60 or more, by those production numbers.

I've found its always been a paradox of Battletech: You cant have a reasonable production rate without sending the number of mechs through the roof (and leaving the scarsity of mechs in the succession wars in question), but the game designers have always been adamant on keeping the numbers down instead of allowing the number to inflate.
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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10/25/06 09:08 AM
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If a mechline produces 14 battle mechs a year (lets say 16 just to make it exactly double my above estimation, and to account for a few advances in technology since 3025).




That's still low. See my prior post on the matter. In 3067, a House should be capable of about 800 to 1500 mechs per year.

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It would take 5 years for the Lyran Alliance to replace its battle losses (mech wise, soldier wise may be another story) How can this be justified with the FM:U and FedCom Civil War estimates of decades?





Two reasons:
1) Any claims about reconstruction from the Civil War are not likely limited to military losses, but all damage to infrastructure and civilian assets. The US South was impoverished from the US Civil War effectively until WW2, when investment finally poured into the South.

2) It's exaggeration. In-character writings about the scope of war, the cost of the military, and so forth tend to be greatly exaggerated to make it sound like BT militaries actually have an impact on the setting.

For example, Victor Steiner-Davion once said that a warship cost as much as the GDP of a planet - which is pure BS, unless you're talking about a Periphery planet with a population in the millions. In fact, a single capital planet (or any major planet) is capable of supporting an entire House military.

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Also, its been about 20 years since the first recovered tech units started to come out.




Closer to 40 years. See Mercenary Supplement 2 for tech recovery dates by Inner Sphere faction.

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How is it possible that in 20 years (again taking the lyran alliance example) that not all mechs are designs either fully upgraded with recovered tech, or mechs produced since 3051 (when 3050 was written to come out).




1) Note the old Star League, per TR:2750, rarely used L2 tech. Few mechs had more than a couple of advanced items even at the height of the Star League. The Star League didn't even bother to design late-model mechs with more than a handful of advanced items. Heck, even the Clans still use older-style equipment in some cases.

2) Not all mechs belong to factions or units with easy access to advanced technology. Mercenaries can't afford or can't acquire access to high tech. Planetary militias don't rate advanced tech, either.

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I've found its always been a paradox of Battletech: You cant have a reasonable production rate without sending the number of mechs through the roof (and leaving the scarsity of mechs in the succession wars in question), but the game designers have always been adamant on keeping the numbers down instead of allowing the number to inflate.




Indeed. I was just part in a long rant on this on CBT.com, though I was pointing out that vastly larger numbers were possible given the population and economy of the Inner Sphere. I provided a link to the discussion earlier.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (10/25/06 09:10 AM)
Countergod
10/26/06 04:20 AM
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1) Any claims about reconstruction from the Civil War are not likely limited to military losses, but all damage to infrastructure and civilian assets. The US South was impoverished from the US Civil War effectively until WW2, when investment finally poured into the South.

2) It's exaggeration. In-character writings about the scope of war, the cost of the military, and so forth tend to be greatly exaggerated to make it sound like BT militaries actually have an impact on the setting.

For example, Victor Steiner-Davion once said that a warship cost as much as the GDP of a planet - which is pure BS, unless you're talking about a Periphery planet with a population in the millions. In fact, a single capital planet (or any major planet) is capable of supporting an entire House military.




I am at school right now, and dont have most of my btech books with me, but i would refer you to pg 122 of FM:U, where it does say it will take decades for the AFFS to replace its material losses.

I understand the other point, and ive always wondered about that myself. I think you may be exaggerating your point a touch (50-70 mech regiments + hundreds of conventional + several warships from just one planet?) I would say maybe 4-5 regiments + supporting conventional regiments + say... one warship for a high profile planet such as tharkad, donegal, Alarion, Luthien or New Avalon would be very reasonable.

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1) Note the old Star League, per TR:2750, rarely used L2 tech. Few mechs had more than a couple of advanced items even at the height of the Star League. The Star League didn't even bother to design late-model mechs with more than a handful of advanced items. Heck, even the Clans still use older-style equipment in some cases.

2) Not all mechs belong to factions or units with easy access to advanced technology. Mercenaries can't afford or can't acquire access to high tech. Planetary militias don't rate advanced tech, either.




You are right that the old SL did not make wide use of its weapons as it could have (which probably cost them in the Amaris Civil War) but the last 20 years of btech universe have had a push to bring all availible technologies onto mechs and vehicles as they could as fast as they could, and deploy them to all the units they could as fast as they could. The sheer size and manufacturing power that we have determined the houses have make me wonder why any level 1 tech remain in the house militaries.

As for the Clans... as powerful as their militaries are, and as potent as their weapons and warriors are, they are NOT a large faction. FM:U shows about 30 worlds, and maybe a hundred colonies... aka smaller than the Cappelan Confederation. I doubt their military production capacity has the ability to keep up with thier constant trials, which would explain the use of starleague era equipment. I meant the other comment (why isnt the entire inner sphere level 2 by now after 20 years) to mean the house militaries, not the periphery realms, and most certainly not the mercenary commands who, by and large, cannot afford it (wolf dragoons, Kell hounds, and a few others being rare exceptions and almost always having some sort of larger state power feeding it)

as for the first four points in your previous post (intel and infiltration of the houses) I cannot argue against you. You work for FASA, you've seen and read the books i havent had time to (or i admit, the will to read, with my predisposed fears of what i would read)

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Yeah, Circinus's references are the oddball out. However, the more recent "Shadows of Faith" and "Isle of the Blessed" give direct, explicit input from WoB leadership. You actually get to see WoB leadership discussing the Whitting Conference and the Third Transfer in the first chapter of "Shadows of Faith."




It was not just the FM:U references, it was also the Project Phoenix reference (I loved how it started... Anastasius Focht is a fool ) That seemed to couche that Comstar had some inkling (or at least that precentor) that WoB's motives were more sinister. Another good one is the FM:U references all over the FWL section showing how much they've infiltrated. (all the references of supporting the WoB when the time comes, and access to Regulus' WMD stockpiles)

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WoB was planning a massive attack on the Clan invasion corridor. It took about 100 regiments to destroy 1 Clan with Operation Bulldog. Destroying the other Clans in the Inner Sphere would be an epic effort by any faction.




I believe the number was more around 50-60 for Operation bulldog, though i am not quite sure, but they steamrolled CSJ (heh heh.. Smoked Jaguars.... somehow fitting, all things considered). I think that one house who's military is not heaviliy damaged by war (see my thing below) could actually slog through a clan OZ, assuming it stayed one on one.

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No, WoB did not have nukes at Tharkad. Per the Mechwarrior: Dark Age website's "Touring the Stars" articles, the WoB conventional orbital bombardment caused an industrial accident involving a very large conventional explosion (equivalent to tens to hundreds of tons of TNT). The industrial facility in question processed nuclear waste, hence the fallout. A full description is coming up in the Tech Manual.




Could you describe in more detail on what happened there? I only read the CBT.com preview which had the reporter going "Mein Gott... the Archon!", so i dont quite know what happened. What was that nuclear explosion, and what happened to pete afterwards?

AS for the Case White thing... I actually had made an alternate reality universe (which is where i was able to pull up the numbers on manufacture real fast, I spent about 4 months trying to reconsile everything that i could piece together to come up with reasonable manufacturing numbers that fit in with the more recent printed materiels). The way i had things go is that the Lyrans chose not to host the Whitting Conference on Tharkad, and chose not to even participate, meaning that the vote to disband the Star League was tied (and did not go through). My friend mentioned that the wobbies were mad about the disbanding and attacked the planets which voted for the resolution to end the SL, so i figured a good break point in the history would be that. Things just simmered for 3 years with the WoB realizing that the SL was falling apart and making their plans for the Jihad. The first thing was to spark a fight between the FWL and the weakend LA, which happened at the 3070 Whitting conference (again on Tharkad) where the duke of tamarind (i think thats the right planet... the one with the Impavido production facility and the fake Tommy Marik's right hand man) is killed by an assassin. The initial investigation points the finger at WoB ROM agents (oops...) but the second round (mad scramble to fix that booboo by the Wobbies) shows that it was really an LIC job, which the LA (very truthfully) denies. The FWLM does a full invasion of the LA, but stops cold when the LAAF is much stronger than intel suggests (heavy investment to upgrade thier mech facilities and make more mechs, putting the LA in heavy debt), then completely turns around when Peter successfully bargains with Phelan kell to assist and the forces deployed to Skye for... heh... fixing some internal problems is able to redeploy to attack. (if you want to knwo about the skye thing, that was a really fun idea i got with the help of bouncing the ideas off my friend, but its too long to go into so ill not say it unless you wanna know). The net result was that the FWL actually lost several imporant systems such as Tamarind, Kalidassa, Oliver, Sirius and Irian. This leads to a huge wave of unpopularity against thomas marik in the FWL congress, and (after he finds out that it actually WAS the WoB who killed the guy and sparked the war) the WoB reveals that Thomas is not the real thomas and the FWL decends into a civil war, which the WoB uses to pretty much take over teh entire FWL.

Meanwhile the CAppie confedi is crushed by the AFFS (I think that happened in the official history too?) over the whole Tinonov thing, and Comstar starts to see exactly what the WoB is planning (im using hte more sinister plans that I thought were in place. I liked the idea, i just thought it happened too fast. So Comstar invades Terra (i guess the same thing as Case white) and fails when the wobbies use the Reagen SDS, warships they picked up from Gabriel, and nukes to destroy most of the attacking force, and crush the rest. Its kinda scary actually how much my ideas coincide with what you've been telling me about the jihad >.> lol. Oh one change: Victor SD dies at the head of that invasion.

If you can answer, how close is this to the entire official history of the Jihad. I had intended to make it more realistic (and slower) compared to what i thought happened. I made the WoB intentions more sinister from the start than what you described and made it more drawn out and stuff, but it actually sounds a LOT like what you described to me, which is why im pestering you with it (lol).
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
CrayModerator
10/26/06 11:22 PM
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I am at school right now, and dont have most of my btech books with me, but i would refer you to pg 122 of FM:U, where it does say it will take decades for the AFFS to replace its material losses.




Oh, that falls under "exaggeration" then.

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I understand the other point, and ive always wondered about that myself. I think you may be exaggerating your point a touch (50-70 mech regiments + hundreds of conventional + several warships from just one planet?) I would say maybe 4-5 regiments + supporting conventional regiments + say... one warship for a high profile planet such as tharkad, donegal, Alarion, Luthien or New Avalon would be very reasonable.




Hmm. You didn't read my links in CBT.com, so we have to redo the math. M'kay.

Fact 1: A typical "high profile" BT planet has 5 to 8 billion people. (Examples: 7 billion at New Avalon and Tharkad, 8 billion on Atreus.) See the House Steiner Handbook, House Marik Handbook, Shattered Sphere, etc.

Fact 2: Average annual income in the Inner Sphere approaches 10,000CB per person (averaged over wage earners and deadbeats like young kids and the unemployed). See the House Steiner Handbook, much older House Liao Sourcebook, etc.

Now, average GDP for a "high profile" planet is (to be conservative) 5 billion x 10,000CB = 50 trillion CB.

In the rather tax-lite US, taxes amount to 30% of income, give or take a bit. So, to be conservative, this typical high profile planet and federal government all other levels of government are drawing 15 trillion CB in taxes (30% of 50 trillion.)

Borrowing again from the US, the local defense department is drawing 20% of taxes: 20% of 15 trillion is 3 trillion CB for the military-industrial complex. Do you want references or can you look up US federal expenditure fractions?

And borrowing yet again from the US, defense expenditures average 80% on maintenance, wages, base upkeep, research, and operations, while 20% are spent annually on procurement. 20% of this high profile planet's procurement is 600 billion CB.

Now, what can you buy for 600 billion CB per year?

25 McKenna-class battleships; or
24,000 100-ton, XL-powered battlemechs (240 regiments); or
428,000 Myrmidon Medium Tanks

Try spending 600 billion CB for a decade on a military. You'd have a warship fleet to match any House; jumpship and dropship transports to move a planetary population (<--hyperbole); twice as many mech regiments as the AFFC at its peak; and all the conventional supporting units you could ever want. And that's without tapping the other 80% of your military budget.

When I say, "A single planet can support an entire House military," I'm not exaggerating. I'm being conservative. Battletech's population and economy can afford vastly, vastly larger militaries than are present in canon.

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The sheer size and manufacturing power that we have determined the houses have make me wonder why any level 1 tech remain in the house militaries.




Probably for the same reason that the US keeps older gear in service. I've spent the past week crawling over B52s and KC135s looking for "aging aircraft issues," and none of them were built after 1963. The B52s will be in service when I'm gumming cream corn in a retirement home decades from now. Some of those older designs work quite well in BT, and some just keep missing the right funding window to be replaced or upgraded.

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As for the Clans... as powerful as their militaries are, and as potent as their weapons and warriors are, they are NOT a large faction.




Oh, I know. Prior to acquiring hundreds of billions of Inner Sphere tax payers, the Clans had one of the most believeable economies and military sizes in BT.

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Yeah, Circinus's references are the oddball out. However, the more recent "Shadows of Faith" and "Isle of the Blessed" give direct, explicit input from WoB leadership. You actually get to see WoB leadership discussing the Whitting Conference and the Third Transfer in the first chapter of "Shadows of Faith."




It was not just the FM:U references, it was also the Project Phoenix reference (I loved how it started... Anastasius Focht is a fool ) That seemed to couche that Comstar had some inkling (or at least that precentor) that WoB's motives were more sinister.




Again, FM:U and Project Phoenix predate the Battlecorps stories, so you have to take FM:U and PP in light of the new information - which is that WoB was planning to attack the Clans.

Further, this is a gimme: you know Comstar is going to interpret WoB's actions in the worst possible light.

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Another good one is the FM:U references all over the FWL section showing how much they've infiltrated. (all the references of supporting the WoB when the time comes, and access to Regulus' WMD stockpiles)




That doesn't alter the Battlecorps issue at all. WoB had big plans. The FWL made it possible.

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WoB was planning a massive attack on the Clan invasion corridor. It took about 100 regiments to destroy 1 Clan with Operation Bulldog. Destroying the other Clans in the Inner Sphere would be an epic effort by any faction.




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Could you describe in more detail on what happened there? I only read the CBT.com preview which had the reporter going "Mein Gott... the Archon!", so i dont quite know what happened. What was that nuclear explosion, and what happened to pete afterwards?




The only details I can give are that (to paraphrase the MWDA site) a "fusion reactor went critical." That's not quite correct, but the exact details won't appear until the upcoming Tech Manual is published.

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Meanwhile the CAppie confedi is crushed by the AFFS (I think that happened in the official history too?)




The AFFS as a whole didn't attack the Capellans. It was just the Capellan March, which did a pretty good job until some warships showed up and bombarded Sian, inspiring a heroic response by the CCAF to throw the March militia back.

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Oh one change: Victor SD dies at the head of that invasion.




Yay!

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If you can answer, how close is this to the entire official history of the Jihad.




There are some similarities. WoB had plans for war afoot when the Star League collapsed. It invoked truly sinister plans when the Star League DID collapse - it tried to burn out the infidels. Notably, it failed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Countergod
10/27/06 12:08 AM
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I will not quote your thing on the GDP, only nod my head knowing exaclty how true that is Well... you did exaggerate something... the US spends well more than 20% of its annual budget on military, esp right now with a war going on.


I understand that some older DESIGNS are kept in service, but all the older equipment in the US military is updated every once in a while with new technology. Perhaps the most extreme example is the Iowa Class Battleships, which were repeatedly updated since WWII (the most recent updates were just before the 1991 gulf war).

Beyond that, it is politicians, not the military industrial complex which determines how upgrades are dolled out, which units are grown etc etc. One would imagine that the politics of an Inner Sphere house would be significantly different from that of the United States Congress, and more funding would be devoted to upgrading that equipment more rapidly....

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The only details I can give are that (to paraphrase the MWDA site) a "fusion reactor went critical." That's not quite correct, but the exact details won't appear until the upcoming Tech Manual is published.




I understand completely. Would you be able to tell me if Peter Steiner Davion survived or no?

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The AFFS as a whole didn't attack the Capellans. It was just the Capellan March, which did a pretty good job until some warships showed up and bombarded Sian, inspiring a heroic response by the CCAF to throw the March militia back.




Yea i have it slightly different. Yvonne authorizes a full military action against the CC and pretty much destroys them (combined with the Andurians and Orientens who help out on the other side, part of the whole collapse of the FWL structure)

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Oh one change: Victor SD dies at the head of that invasion.


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Yay!




Wanna help me grow my alt universe?

One more aside question, if you could: FM:LA states that the First Royal BA regiment was almost 6 months of production. According to TRO:3058U, the only BA in production in the LA is the Fenrir. Am i to assume that a regiment of BA is produced in 6 months, or were there others in production before 3070 which got canceled?
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
CrayModerator
10/27/06 08:20 AM
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I will not quote your thing on the GDP, only nod my head knowing exaclty how true that is Well... you did exaggerate something... the US spends well more than 20% of its annual budget on military, esp right now with a war going on.




Citing an anti-war network which is fast and loose with numbers, the US did spend about 30% of the federal budget in war time (2004AD). However, the US federal budget is only 20% of the GDP. In my last post, I used 30% to capture all taxes: local, state, federal, interplanetary, etc. That means my "20% of all taxes for the military" is equivalent to US federal spending.

Plus, I was being conservative - downplaying available funds. I could've used a more populous planet or a higher average income, as I have canon citations for both.

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I understand that some older DESIGNS are kept in service, but all the older equipment in the US military is updated every once in a while with new technology.




Not to a great extent. The B52s I was on were laden with dated technology, specifics of which I won't get into since I don't know what's authorized for public consumptions. The Iowa-class battleships only dribbled new technology onto 1930s-era engines, hull, and weaponry. A few missile launchers here, a few radars there, and it was a dressed up 1930s-era warship built in the 1940s and kept in service for decades.

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Beyond that, it is politicians, not the military industrial complex which determines how upgrades are dolled out, which units are grown etc etc. One would imagine that the politics of an Inner Sphere house would be significantly different from that of the United States Congress, and more funding would be devoted to upgrading that equipment more rapidly....




Or Inner Sphere politicians wouldn't. Look at what a small fraction of the Inner Sphere's economy goes into the war effort compared to modern Earth, and even the House leaders bitch and whine about backbreaking expenditures. Modern Earth tolerates a far higher level of military spending than any House. Only the 163rd to 167th nations on the following list begin to approximate House military spending, proportionally.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html

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I understand completely. Would you be able to tell me if Peter Steiner Davion survived or no?





Oh, yeah, I think so. I seem to recall him featuring in later MWDA historical references.


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Wanna help me grow my alt universe?




I will be happy to critique it and point out plot holes. You might want to start a new thread, though, so this one doesn't get threadjacked further.

For example, what was the causus belli (sp) between the Capellans and FS?

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One more aside question, if you could: FM:LA states that the First Royal BA regiment was almost 6 months of production. According to TRO:3058U, the only BA in production in the LA is the Fenrir. Am i to assume that a regiment of BA is produced in 6 months, or were there others in production before 3070 which got canceled?




Quite a few Inner Sphere BAs were in production by 3067, and at sharply expanding rates. It'd be reasonable to field regiments of most canon IS BAs in the 3060s.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Toontje
10/28/06 08:34 AM
84.24.178.225

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The casus belli would be Yvonne showing spine, and standing up to her sister thus allowing for new political developments..

Anyway, you can slighlty reduce the income from planets to the House government, as it's a feodal structure meaning a lot of cash remains in minor (planetary) houses. And I'm unsure about the obligations of nobility to pay taxes.

But even at 90% reduction, income is still high enough to maintain the standing army of houses from 1-2 planets. But at least it helps reduce the gap.

Quite possibly, taxes work on the similar feodal structure of 10% tax for ever level. 99% of the population is taxed. Local ruler sends 10% of income to regional ruler. Regional ruler sends 10% to planetary ruler, who sends 10% to government. Thus 0.1 % of GDP is added to the treasury for a single planet, and the rulers live in very pretty houses.

I really to need to read up on canon on this tho, to see references to taxes. What I put up above is straight from the tumb.
Rather to blow up, then.
CrayModerator
10/28/06 12:57 PM
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The casus belli would be Yvonne showing spine, and standing up to her sister thus allowing for new political developments..




A causus belli is the direct trigger of a war. If Yvonne and Katherine have a spat, then how does that directly cause a war with the Capellan Confederation?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Toontje
10/29/06 06:19 AM
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Hmm ok, that's right. That one would be the indirect cause.

Yvonne shows spine, Katherina pissed due to that, sends covert operations to stir up trouble, and voilá!

Sandoval is less free to invade the DC due to more direct oversight, thus not sapping from the strength of the reserves. With extraction of different units from both realms running smoother due to a common cause, less civil war disturbance, and thus no reduction of the army.

Now in the meantime, K S-(D) consolidates the LA, grabs some planets from the FS near the terran corridor.

Obviously tho, invasion of the CC after XS is a lot more difficult so I do not see how the full subjugation could be achieved with only the resources of the FS at hand. A planet or 2-3, ok, but more takes a drain to pacify. Enough RL examples, like the subjugation of Bretange by the Brittons in the 100-year war, where France completely conquered was impossible to achieve.
Rather to blow up, then.
Greyslayer
10/29/06 05:49 PM
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Enough RL examples, like the subjugation of Bretange by the Brittons in the 100-year war, where France completely conquered was impossible to achieve.




Don't let real life interfere with a game though.... Cray already had done enough of that in this thread. I'd prefer 'environmentally consistant' results in a universe rather than skewing results from the past to meet some sort of real life equivalent now. A planet struggling to support a mech battalion of 3025 tech doesn't become one ready to support 3 warships, several mech factories etc... regardless of the dodgey mathematics involved.
Revanche
10/29/06 08:03 PM
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why does BT's community, wich seems to be very upset about the development of BT's timeline don't take it in their own hands and start an alternative timeline as a copyleft project?




Are you working on such a project?
sdog
10/30/06 07:03 AM
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"... start an alternative timeline as a copyleft project?"

"Are you working on such a project? "




no, i don't.

I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...

- Skaven, ArmA modding community
Toontje
10/30/06 09:30 AM
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Enough RL examples, like the subjugation of Bretange by the Brittons in the 100-year war, where France completely conquered was impossible to achieve.




Don't let real life interfere with a game though.... Cray already had done enough of that in this thread. I'd prefer 'environmentally consistant' results in a universe rather than skewing results from the past to meet some sort of real life equivalent now. A planet struggling to support a mech battalion of 3025 tech doesn't become one ready to support 3 warships, several mech factories etc... regardless of the dodgey mathematics involved.




Well, looks more like the initial math was not done thoroughly. But best way out imo is the approach the monetary base is sufficient, but the tech and manufactoring base isn't (in the 3020s).

Initially the developers must have looked at the rpg ability of the universe they created, and decided it was good. Players dive way too deep in such things, and expect everything to be working right. BT is rather consistent, compared to some other backgrounds; economics may not be right on, but political and military there has been put a lot of tought in.
Rather to blow up, then.
Greyslayer
10/30/06 05:07 PM
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Unlike now where the example of the US is a country owing so much money it isn't funny. Perhaps some fiscal responsibility is needed in the btech universe before allowing people to grow armies on trees?
Countergod
10/31/06 03:46 AM
128.211.247.175

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sorry bout the delay... this damn pesky thing called a "real life" keeps getting in the way of doing important things >.>

Ill go start a new thread named "For Cray"
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
CrayModerator
11/01/06 08:36 AM
147.160.136.10

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Quote:

Don't let real life interfere with a game though.... Cray already had done enough of that in this thread. I'd prefer 'environmentally consistant' results in a universe rather than skewing results from the past to meet some sort of real life equivalent now.




Then you missed my point. I'll try to clarify.

I'm not trying to give every planet 100 regiments of mechs. I'm trying to point out that there's a disconnect between the population/economy of BT and the size of militaries. I'm trying to do that because every now and then, someone thinks a mech regiment or warship (or 100 of each) is incredibly expensive. They're not expensive in BT. Expense is not the reason they're so rare.

I can't find a good, realistic reason in-universe they should be rare, but that doesn't stop my enjoyment of the game and, apparently, it doesn't bother you either.

Quote:

Initially the developers must have looked at the rpg ability of the universe they created, and decided it was good. Players dive way too deep in such things, and expect everything to be working right. BT is rather consistent, compared to some other backgrounds; economics may not be right on, but political and military there has been put a lot of tought in.




Exactly. And what a fun setting it is.

Quote:

Unlike now where the example of the US is a country owing so much money it isn't funny.




On an absolute scale, yes, the US owes a lot. On a relative scale, it owes 64.7% of its annual GDP. Italy owes 108.8%, Frances owes 66.2%, Germany 67.3%, Britain 46%, and even the famous bankers in Switzerland owe 52%. (Though the phrase, "If your friends all jumped off a bridge..." comes to mind.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Greyslayer
11/01/06 06:12 PM
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Quote:

They're not expensive in BT. Expense is not the reason they're so rare.

I can't find a good, realistic reason in-universe they should be rare, but that doesn't stop my enjoyment of the game and, apparently, it doesn't bother you either.




Rare metals in the production of fusion engines was part of the problem apparently. This though should have made the units even more expensive than say their ICE counterparts. Earth and the older planets had very limited access to these minerals. Places like the Outworld Alliance are the only locations which I knew that had reasonable deposits of such metals involved in the production of Fusion Engines, but then again I haven't covered the old literature for some time. Clan space was poor in general as far as minerals and metals are concerned so how they got their wasteful society of war up and running would be an interesting argument in fiction.
CrayModerator
11/01/06 09:46 PM
68.200.109.191

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Quote:

Rare metals in the production of fusion engines was part of the problem apparently. This though should have made the units even more expensive than say their ICE counterparts. Earth and the older planets had very limited access to these minerals. Places like the Outworld Alliance are the only locations which I knew that had reasonable deposits of such metals involved in the production of Fusion Engines, but then again I haven't covered the old literature for some time.




Sure, some production bottleneck'll work.

It's a shame humanity dropped asteroid mining (for the most part) as soon as they got the KF drive. Even the rarest metals, the platinum group, are abundant in asteroids. I guess that explains why the early history sections of the House SBs indicate the Terran Alliance's fusion engines advanced so rapidly thanks to asteroid mining.

Quote:

Clan space was poor in general as far as minerals and metals are concerned so how they got their wasteful society of war up and running would be an interesting argument in fiction.




The Clans are easy, since they have a realistic ratio between population/economy and military sizes. Their inefficiency is what puts the brakes on their advanced, 28th-Century industrial technology - if the Clans used their technology in a remotely intelligent way, they'd be much better off and the Inner Sphere in much deeper shit. Even the resource bottleneck only works because the Clans are, for the most part, too collectively dumb to explore and settle richer worlds. They've only got several million uninhabited star systems around them in a radius equal to their distance from the Inner Sphere.

The problem explanation is the Inner Sphere. They have much more intelligent economies and use their technology better than the Clans.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Greyslayer
11/02/06 05:54 PM
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Quote:

The problem explanation is the Inner Sphere. They have much more intelligent economies and use their technology better than the Clans.




ROM.... which only got worse after 3025.
CrayModerator
11/03/06 08:38 AM
147.160.136.10

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Quote:

Quote:

The problem explanation is the Inner Sphere. They have much more intelligent economies and use their technology better than the Clans.




ROM.... which only got worse after 3025.




ROM works for a short while. It takes some suspension of disbelief for an intelligence agency to work so perfectly for centuries at destroying national defense/security-related projects in five big nations, with several of the victims noted for for highly effective intel agencies of their own.

That long, low-key warfare period of the Third Succession War should've been marked by substantial reconstruction, and even without reconstruction, it's hard to find a good explanation for the microscopic militaries. Most planets were at the 21st Century technology level, with plenty of them at the 23rd Century level. You don't need battlemechs and fusion engines to build a capable military.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Greyslayer
11/03/06 05:29 PM
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Which I had noted with the mention of ICE engines. I have done well in tourneys with a low-tech approach in the past and a mech battalion against a ICE tank division would hardly be fair for the battalion .

Reading much of the earlier Comstar books though they do take alot of the credit for the problems since the exodus and played on the Houses willingness to believe these aspects in other Houses.

Personally I too find it a rather far-fetched situation to have, but it doesn't excuse the 180o move currently. Nor the then move to retore the original view for MWDA?
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