Venom
06/17/06 10:29 PM
63.241.182.3
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Years ago I used to post here under the name Wild Weasel. Then FASA folded, my friends and i graduated and only played a game about once a year. However, i have had a need to play lately that will not just shut up and die. So I decided to find out what ever happend after the FedCom civil War? The Dark Ages stuff is scary to me and realy does not look like it holds a candle to The BT of my youth. So what the Heck happened!?!?
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Toontje
06/18/06 09:56 AM
84.24.165.226
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New incarnation coming up; check out total war somewhere on http://www.classicbattletech.com
Jihad not really radically different from the stuff before, no need to suspend sense of reality to have the universe fold onto itself; it is (at least first 2 books about it) mainly as invasive as the FC civil war, but with more reality (eradication of planet populations etc).
With the upcoming incarnation, teh timeline is more or less set fully, but subplots etc can be fleshed out further; mainly it will differentiate on time periods, might be a smaller following for every time period but the prospects look promosing.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Karagin
06/18/06 10:30 PM
24.243.176.24
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FASA folded which was brought on by bad business decesions, bad markerting, and a law suit with Harmony Gold over the artwork of the mechs in the original TRO 3025, and with that came the end of an era in BT's history. WizKids bought the rights to game and it's properites. They then mergered it in a manner with their Mechwarrior game, which is based off the MageKnights game system of play, in that the MWDA setting is the future history of Battletech's universe.
To get there, they needed something massive in the events to allow changes, thus the Jihad was born and this is the Word of Blakes's attack on the Inner Sphere and the Clans in their bid to rebuild the Star League or something like it. It fails. And boom we move into the MWDA setting.
Now we are told that this is suppose to help the game, and we have been told that all of these "changes" were planned long ago by FASA as away to trim the game down and make things easier to understand play etc...as to whether or not this is true, we will never know for sure because FASA is gone and WK owns BT.
What you have now is a game system that is old, yet fun, a universe that is rich in adventure and settings, YET not fully explored and you also have two companies working in it. Now Randal Bills the new line devoloper for Classic BT as it's now known, is trying to fill in gaps and give us older stuff as well as new things, revamping left off areas and adding to things. So far things are going well in that area.
The Jihad area is one that has left a bitter taste in folks mouths and a lot of hard feelings on both sides of the issue and debate. And thus a rift is in the community that plays BT. There are those who support the new story line with a lot of passion and venom and there are those who hate the new story line with the same passion and venom. Then you have folks who don't care either way and who pretty much want to play BT no matter what.
The main thing is the game needs new blood, and how to get it, ie the current new storyline which leds to the MWDA setting or not, is the subject of endless debate.
Best thing to do is play the game as you remember it and if you want to update and have the new stuff then they (FanPro) are putting out a new set of rules books that are suppose to help the game out in that it stream lines things and gives us new rules as well as new tech or actually Level 3 items brought over in a limited bases to help the game along.
As to whether or not this will help is to be seen, but new rules haven't ruined the game, just added more stuff to be considered and used by the players or not.
Play how you want with what you want and have fun while doing it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Backstab
06/21/06 11:00 PM
203.10.224.60
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Why do people hate the Jahid/MWDA that much ?
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Venom
06/21/06 11:16 PM
63.241.182.3
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From what I understand, MWDA consists of 'mechs with saws and other such implements. Such 'mechs do not hold a candle to the 'mechs that I started with. Then again, people hated the idea of Lvl 2 tech at the end of the 4th Succesion War and into the War of 3039. Those same people about had a coranary when they introduced the Clans. But none of those changes comes close to the wholesale rework that is MWDA. That is just my take on it, having breifly perused a couple of MWDA books that a friend foolishly(IMHO) bought.
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Toontje
06/22/06 06:14 AM
84.24.165.226
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MWDA just targets a different audience. Faster play does have merits, but the loss of detailed damage is a shame, that stops it from me pursueing MWDA further. After all, BT hangs on resolving hits (The anticipation.. you just hit with an Ac/20 roujnd, will it hit anything good, will it penetrate trough armour?!?!? Such things)
Jihad is, imo, hated by a lot of players for 2 reasons:
1: change (never goes down easy)
2: The lack of understanding how a 3rd rate power can turn out to be a 2nd rate power. (destroying stuff is easy, take and hold is hard)
Rather to blow up, then.
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Cray
06/22/06 08:56 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
From what I understand, MWDA consists of 'mechs with saws and other such implements.
Someone told you wrong, then. MWDA consists of many battlemechs of all the old models you're familiar with. House militaries are a bit smaller, but they're still there. Some of the latest MWDA novels have featured entire Clan galaxies at war, with all the usual Clan tech.
Now, some desperate individuals have pressed workmechs (with saws and other such implements) into combat, but they get shot to hell in no time by battlemechs.
Quote:
Such 'mechs do not hold a candle to the 'mechs that I started with.
You're correct. Workmechs don't hold a candle to battlemechs. In MWDA, battlemechs are still king of the battlefield.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/22/06 09:14 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
The Dark Ages stuff is scary to me and realy does not look like it holds a candle to The BT of my youth.
From your post elsewhere in the thread, it looks like you didn't look far enough into MWDA. It's a change but, no, it's not all about workmechs bashing each other up with chainsaws. Battlemechs are on the march in regiments and galaxies.
Quote:
So what the Heck happened!?!?
What happened is that all those billions of Comstar true believers (remember when Federated Suns Outback planets listened more to Comstar than the FS?) followed their banner to the Word of Blake. The Word of Blake expanded into the Chaos March in the 3060s and acquired Terra. With its large resources, it was able to expand at a rate similar to Comstar's post-Tukayyid reconstruction while playing the "secret hidden army game" that fooled no one.
Then the new Star League was reformed and WoB did a happy dance. WoB petitioned to join the Star League and got in as a junior member, and everything was going as foretold in the Blake prophesies, and WoB was happy. The age of peace 'n love and bunnies was dawning on the Inner Sphere, which had been old Comstar's goal throughout the Succession Wars. (Well, Comstar wanted to save mankind itself and didn't appreciate competition, but...)
And then several Houses said, "this new Star League is a sham meant to fight the Clans, we did that, so now, we're leaving." IMO, this shows just how inbred the Steiners and Davions are, since they both could've benefitted from the Star League. Ask anyone in the Tamar Pact/Jade Falcon Occupation zone.
WoB saw its precious Star League collapse and hopes and dreams for the future fall apart, so it launched a monumentally bad idea to bring the Star League back together: it launched the Jihad. Apparently, nuking planets was supposed to make everyone obey the Master.
When the dust settles from the Jihad (a war on par with the First Succession War for destructiveness), the Houses are going to demobilize *some* of their troops to minimize military reconstruction costs, and the Clans idled *some* warriors, to inflate the importance of the remaining Clan warriors. It was a typical post-war craving for peace and smaller militaries.
One foreshadowing event was the removal of battlemechs from private hands and putting them into the militaries' possession. (Which was, IMO, long overdue - how many of your neighbors have fully functional battle tanks?)
In a more bizarre turn of events, the Houses ceded their most screwed up core planets to the new "Republic of the Sphere," which saved the Houses some money but...I still agree with Liao on this. It was a goofy idea.
Anyway, fast forward 50 years (past about 6 different wars - so much for an era of peace) and the MWDA story kicks off by focusing on the Republic of the Sphere (RotS). The HPG network shuts down and the multi-national RotS comes apart like post-USSR Yugoslavia (or pre-USSR Austro-Hungarian Empire.)
Now, since no one has battlemechs in private hands (in RotS), as soon as society starts panicking, people figure "we need battlemechs!" So they take their workmechs, bolt on armor and weak guns, and think they're Kings of the Battlefield. The RotS factions that form tend to be allied with their parents Houses, the ones who gave up their worlds to the RotS.
Then the Houses and Clans got involved (much like after the collapse of the old Star League and how they preyed on the undefended Terran Hegemony), and you see REAL battlemechs, and those goofy workmech conversions get their butts kicked.
So, last I heard, the MWDA focuses on the death of the Republic of the Sphere at the hands of a score of different factions. Whether RotS will completely die or not is still up in the air.
One of the problems with MWDA is that it was introduced to players in a really bad fashion. It was announced around the death of FASA, so people only got a partial story. Wizkid's insistence of pursuing MWDA while FanPro continues to write the 3067-era (now the Jihad) means that some of the story has to be suppressed to avoid "spoilers," so that leaves players with only a partial understanding of the Jihad and how a "small faction" like WoB could manage its feats of destruction. Plus, players continually return and only get a partial overview of MWDA and come away with misconceptions, like "It's only about mechs with saws."
By the time they get the full story, they're so pissed that start rejecting new information and explanations to turn MWDA (and the Jihad) into something far worse than it is. My recommendation is to take a breather, ignore the MWDA (it's a long ways off for normal Battletech), and look around a bit more for answers before hyperventilating and screaming "Jihad! Jihad!" against MWDA. 
And if you don't like the Jihad and MWDA after all that, don't worry. Battletech has more support for older eras than ever. New "Historicals" are covering old eras of BT that were skipped in the rush to hurry to the Clan invasion (like the War of 3039), and Mercenaries Supplemental II even provided rules for playing in very different eras, like the Age of War and pre-battlemech eras.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/22/06 09:20 AM)
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Karagin
06/22/06 11:24 AM
24.243.176.24
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There are many reasons. Mainly folks hate because it isn't BT as they know it and it's forced on the game in that the MWDA stuff IS the future outcome of events for the BT universe.
Also folks hate the collectiable side of the game along with the idea that every couple of months or so new set or packs come out and poof all your existing stuff is useless. Then the rules have a lot of things that cause the game to slow and really boring. Then other reasons range from you don't know what you are getting when you buy a booster pack to the mechs are painted already to the whole workmechs armed...and yes Cray, the work mechs are a big part of MWDA setting, so ther is no getting around that part and thus the negative image that comes from that part of the MWDA setting.
The issues with Jihad range from the Word of Blake going from a small group with very limited resources to one who can field armies, buy mechs like they are as cheap as bubble gum and nuke everything and anything all so the game can move towards the pre-ordaned history that again is given to us via MWDA.
So this issue is one that has fanatics on both sides and a simple search on this or any BT fourm will give you all the reasons and issues as well as the canned responces by the PTB and their supports as well as points brought up by many folks that seem to be ignored by TPTB or we are told that they have been dealt with, yet nothing shows up in any book explaining any thing away so it fits and makes sense in the BT universe. And even the calls for two universes meets with just as much hostility as does the pointing out of errors or issues with the Jihad or MWDA.
So again if the current story line is something you like and MWDA seems fun to you then play them. If they don't, then play BT however you want. As long as you are having fun then that is all that matters.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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sdog
06/23/06 02:13 PM
139.174.165.124
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Cray, thanks for the brief explanation of DA and the Jihad. As i only know BT through Neveron and the novels until Tukayid i hardly knew much about it.
Personaly i don't like the inflation of mech models after 3050 very much. As the Lostech aspect was one of the things i enjoyed quite a lot in 3025 era BT. I also liked the 80s Japanese artwork of the mechs much better than the new stuff.
But as i said before, i don't play tabletop BT so my pov is quite different.
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Toontje
06/23/06 06:40 PM
84.24.165.226
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TRy it from september, sdog, latest incarnation (Total Warfare) coming up..
The product story has changed from roughly timelined, as was from 3025-3067, to era oriented (so you can play your favorite SW over and over again).
Rather to blow up, then.
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Cray
06/24/06 12:50 AM
70.118.43.50
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Quote:
Personaly i don't like the inflation of mech models after 3050 very much. As the Lostech aspect was one of the things i enjoyed quite a lot in 3025 era BT. I also liked the 80s Japanese artwork of the mechs much better than the new stuff.
The 3025-era is a perennial (sp) favorite. My latest campaign was set then.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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JackGarrity
09/19/06 02:00 AM
71.207.230.120
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heh. im gonna get chewed for this.. but I took part in task force serpent and operation bulldog, where we crushed Smoke jag.. my entire regiment fought it out and we won, Im a merc and im loyal to house Kurita. Whatevr Coordinator thought ti is a good idea to abandon battlemechs is nuts. no one gets my toys. I ever see a blakest, hes so much PPC vapor. I dislike how they seemed to take the storyline and the background everyone knew and was both entranced by and confused by and juggled it about. a friend of mine bought a lot of the first draft of that Junk and it seemed to be that real battlemechs were decommisioned in the 'era of peace' what is this gundam wing now? and taht was the reason a lot had to use work and utility mechs cuz SOmehow in the like.. 40 years between the timelines they FORGOT how to build bttlemechs? with all the billons of people in all the houses of the IS 40 years or so is a bit.. hazy on something thats been used foe centuries as combat weapons. Sure the Base of the storyline is ok, and I hope Mech assault3 lets me maul blakests left and right, unless its going to be purely online like it looked, but the way they went about it; the apperant not caring of the Old players like myself, theones who slugged it out as the game developed, in favor of the bubblegum crowd who want everything MTG and MK like. I TRIED to explain to someone who 'CBT mech system and rules operated, his exact words were'thats a lot of stupid crap, none of it makes sense, see you just click this here and it tells you what to do' ...... Mebbe imone of the odd ones but i pour over my mech books can alost qoute some of the manuals from my head and the process of mechbuilding is one of the best aspects OF The game.. and its being discarded in favor of preset designs and limited functions. Sure its nice to see BT still going on, just almost seems like WK wanted to go 'eh pissoff pre owners, we got it now, so, its going to become whatever we feel like if you dont like it then dont buy it.' This is just my take on it not meant to start a argument.
Greetings Mechwarrior.
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Toontje
09/19/06 02:25 AM
84.24.178.225
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I doubt you would be as loyal to Takashi.
You've heard the horror of MWDA, but did not noitice it's only an interlude like the time between the the 4th SW and the '39 war. Also, face the fact that imwdda is set in the old teran hegemony worlds, the rest of the universe is unaffected to my knowledge..
Rather to blow up, then.
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JackGarrity
09/19/06 02:37 AM
71.207.230.120
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thast the comment i expected. takashi's ideals are sound, but.. disarmament of troops is like a Samurai giving up his sword, id do neither. Then again as long as Talon system is fine, considering much of the 'warring' takes place in the core area I dont care much. I disliked Comstar but they at least wouldnt nuke you, breaking the Ares Convention. Theodore had some things right, less polite vineer more stealth and careful plotting.
Greetings Mechwarrior.
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Countergod
10/19/06 04:59 AM
128.211.247.206
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My main beef with the Jihad is how Wizkids shamelessly destroyed the Btech universe to bring it about. FASA had the FedCom Civil war pretty much planned when they shut down, and Randal Bills took the plan to completion very aptly (though i feel the books could have gotten into the nitty gritty a bit better....)
However, the Jihad was supposed to be a private war between the WoB and Comstar. Dont believe me? Read the beginning of the Dawn of the Jihad, Bills admits it himself. But in order to accomodate the MW:DA uinverse and the 'cataclysm' that was the Jihad, they backwrote in many things, explained a whole bunch of small mysteries as WoB planned. For crying out loud, these people invaded Terra in 3058. They did NOT have a plan for taking over the entire IS ready when they did that. WizKids pretty much took a small power and gave them unlimited foresight, power, and reach (esp the WoB ROM everywhere. Everything that everybody does wrong is WoB ROM agents mixing the pot). Maybe i am exaggerating a bit, but it seems like every answer which i get from my friend who is totally pro Jihad is "Count, the WoB ROM is everywhere. You remember this little obscure thing? Well that was the WoB". When they added a warship repository from the Star League (yea... i bet right after a war they just left hundreds of ships in perfectly good working order lying around... i mean its not like these people just had their entire civilization destroyed or anything...) I was just totally put out. Then they brought back the LCS Invincible and had the Mjolnir, FireCrest, and Arthur Steiner Davion go dissapear and presumably end up in WoB hands (its not like these are multibillion c-bill pieces of equipment... we dont need to give them good security, screening and coding to make sure someone doesnt just fly off with it).
Bottom line: they went WoB became God and blasted the Inner Sphere. At first, I was unhappy about the Clans, but when they created an entire history, culture and richness of faire for the Clans, I accepted them because... honestly... the stuff FASA came up with was well thought out, and kick ass. The WoB were just your run of the mill evil sadistic Nazis who were out to conquer the known universe.
/rant
*huff huff*
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck 
Maj. NevLord Madman |
Cray
10/19/06 09:12 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
For crying out loud, these people invaded Terra in 3058. They did NOT have a plan for taking over the entire IS ready when they did that.
That's correct. WoB did not plan to take over the Inner Sphere with the Jihad. As unfolding now in Battlecorps' "Isle of the Blessed" series and earlier in the "Shadows of Faith" series, the Word of Blake PLANNED to attack the Clans when it became a full member of the Star League at the 3067 conference. It had no plans for the conquest of the Inner Sphere.
Quote:
WizKids pretty much took a small power and gave them unlimited foresight,
Foresight?
WoB didn't see the collapse of the Star League coming. It didn't have troops in positions to support the Jihad. (At Tharkad and New Avalon, it haphazardly forced "gift" units into combat and got its butt whupped in short order.) WoB needed months to redirect its anti-Clan troops into reinforcing the New Avalon and Tharkad attacks. Its overall strategy in the Jihad - bludgeon the Houses until they rejoined the Star League - shows a complete lack of foresight and a great deal of stupidity on the part of WoB leaders.
Elsewhere, WoB couldn't see the future even when a deaf-dumb kid could. I mean, hello, it attacks the Dragoons and is surprised and panicked when the Dragoon survivors go for WoB's throat in the Solar System? Despite WoB's ubyr l33t ROM, it mistakenly thinks the Dragoons knew the Master was on Mars (when the Dragoons were just going for the less-protected "underbelly" of the Solar System) and thus panicks into nuking Outreach?
The only thing WoB could get right was to shut down interstellar communications, which made it possible to trigger the brushfire wars between the Houses, like the Steiner-Marik squabble immediately after Tharkad's bombardment. Lack of interstellar communications is the only thing that kept the Jihad going past 3070.
Quote:
power,
I think you might be underestimating what WoB started with. It wasn't a "small power." It had a very large base population. I've discussed the matter more extensively here:
First Post
Second Post
Quote:
When they added a warship repository from the Star League (yea... i bet right after a war they just left hundreds of ships in perfectly good working order lying around... i mean its not like these people just had their entire civilization destroyed or anything...) I was just totally put out.
You're exaggerating. You'll turn WoB into your own worst nightmare if you do that.
1) WoB did not acquire hundreds of warships. Even after hijacking most of the FWL's fleet, it only seems to have 40 or less. As I noted in the links above, WoB could only field 2 warships at the critical attack on New Avalon and was incapable of replacing one of those vital warships when it was destroyed. Frankly, you're hard pressed to find the WoB fleet in action - one warship here, another there, and some that go bouncing around the Inner Sphere on raids.
2) The growth of the the FWL navy - which had a large number of recovered Star League vessels - shows that whatever WoB found at "The RUINS of Gabriel" was not "in perfectly good working order." It took years to put those ships back in service and they trickled into service. WoB also needed Terra's mammoth Titan Shipyards to really get rolling. All in all, it sounds like WoB found an old scrapyard and managed to put together a few ships out of the Star League fleet, which once numbered in the thousands.
Quote:
the stuff FASA came up with was well thought out, and kick ass.
The Clans were 1D fanatics that required desperate backpedaling to turn into a credible faction, too.
Quote:
The WoB were just your run of the mill evil sadistic Nazis who were out to conquer the known universe.
Are you following the current Battlecorps series on WoB? They're doing a lot for me to turn WoB from 1D fanatics into believeable opponents with multiple factions at work under their aegis.
One thing you might want to do is minimize exaggerating WoB, or you'll turn it into a nightmare that you mistake for the real thing. When information was scarce about WoB, yes, it looked lame. However, it's getting better as more and more information is published about it. IMO. YMMV.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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sdog
10/19/06 09:55 AM
139.174.165.124
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Quote:
The only thing WoB could get right was to shut down interstellar communications, which made it possible to trigger the brushfire wars between the Houses, like the Steiner-Marik squabble immediately after Tharkad's bombardment. Lack of interstellar communications is the only thing that kept the Jihad going past 3070.
what happened with the non HPG based communication devises, called Fax in the 4th succession war. as even division sized units got their own one in the fed suns, they should have spread to all other houses too, in a period of three decades.
I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...
- Skaven, ArmA modding community
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Cray
10/19/06 10:45 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
what happened with the non HPG based communication devises, called Fax in the 4th succession war. as even division sized units got their own one in the fed suns, they should have spread to all other houses too, in a period of three decades.
Those have been discussed at length in DotJ, HS:3070, and Battlecorps fiction. WoB field commanders have griped that the blockades around Tharkad and New Avalon are useless (for the purpose of shutting down capital communications) because of the faxes. (Of course, the blockades and conquests have other uses...but they aren't working so well.)
Faxes are in use, but their use is extremely limited by their bandwidth capacity. The difference between a fax and an HPG is the difference between a 1200 Baud modem and a 10 gigabyte/second Internet2 backbone line, and that's still shortchanging the HPG's capacity (which can transmit in an instant all of the interstellar mail, video, and computer data a planet builds up in a week). Faxes can trickle out a few messages with a little data to field commanders.
Despite the handicaps, faxes certainly had their uses in the Jihad so far.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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sdog
10/19/06 11:17 AM
139.174.165.124
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1200 Baud should be more than enough for interstellar diplomatics. Still considerably more than snail mail or telegraphs in our history.
in general the jihad and DA doesn't seem very coherent and strict to me. however is i usually completely ignore this timeline it doesn't matter to much to me.
an only slightly related off topic question. why does BT's community, wich seems to be very upset about the development of BT's timeline don't take it in their own hands and start an alternative timeline as a copyleft project? there should be enough creativity and momentum to do it. if it is good, and about half of the players would join it the whole community could be pulled away from Wizkids. a kind of emacipation of the BT community.
I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...
- Skaven, ArmA modding community
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Cray
10/19/06 11:34 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
1200 Baud should be more than enough for interstellar diplomatics.
Yes, it should, but the few groups that have faxes (Kurita, Steiner, Davion) don't have integrated fax networks. Kurita's primitive faxes don't even have the range to reach Steiner or Davion, and it's moot in any case - if you sent a fax to Luthien, you'd get the following responses:
"I am the true Coordinator of the Combine. Foreign dogs, piss off."
"No, I am the true Coordinator of the Combine. We'll get back to you when a minor internal problem is dealt with."
"Hey, we're some troops stuck on Luthien and don't really have the authority to speak for the Combine. But thanks for the fax. The blonde joke was funny."
An exchange of faxes from New Avalon to Tharkad:
"Sorry about that brutal civil war a few months ago where we invaded Tharkad and deposed the Archon. Time heals all, right? Listen, WoB's invaded New Avalon and the Capellans are attacking New Syrtis. Can you send some troops to help us?"
"Gee, sorry, WoB's invaded Tharkad and is obliterating our shipyards. The Free Worlds League is plowing into our flank and the Clans are conquering planets again. How about you send troops to help us?"
An exchange of couriers between Atreus and Tharkad:
"Hey, Marik, dude, why'd you attack us with your warships?"
"We didn't attack you. You staged the raid to start something with us."
"You lie. It was a Marik warship. We have proof. Some guy got a good cameraphone shot of it."
"No, you lie."
"Fine. Banzai!"
Communications doesn't always straighten things out. Do you want a recent real world example of wide-open communications between governments that still led to war?
Quote:
in general the jihad and DA doesn't seem very coherent and strict to me.
Do you have Dawn of the Jihad, Hotspots: 3070, and a Battlecorps account? It takes a number of sources to put everything together, but once you have them, it gets clearer.
Quote:
an only slightly related off topic question. why does BT's community, wich seems to be very upset about the development of BT's timeline don't take it in their own hands and start an alternative timeline as a copyleft project?
Plenty of people have. Just visit the higher-traffic forums. You'll find more alternative histories than you can shake a stick at. Good luck finding a timeline that everyone will back. It's hard to keep the Clanners, Davionistas, Liaoists, and all the other factions pleased with a timeline.
I suppose the first step is finding a website to host the timeline construction effort. Do you have a preference?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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sdog
10/19/06 12:43 PM
139.174.165.124
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thanks for the reply cray.
i'm not really an insider, as you clearly can see. and i do only have sources i get for free from the net. i'm not willing to pay those extraordinary prices they want for the BT material.
sad to hear the BT community is too splintered in their efforts and not large enough to support strong ones. really no chance of an organization who could bundle it?
I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...
- Skaven, ArmA modding community
Edited by sdog (10/19/06 12:44 PM)
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Cray
10/19/06 02:08 PM
147.160.136.10
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i'm not really an insider, as you clearly can see. and i do only have sources i get for free from the net. i'm not willing to pay those extraordinary prices they want for the BT material.
You can get a lot of the older material in legal .pdf format for less than the later releases. Battlecorps' battleshop should have quite a catalog.
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really no chance of an organization who could bundle it?
I can't think of a readymade one off the top of my head. However, if you're motivated on the issue, go for it. There are plenty of BT forums that can host the discussions. It's a matter of collecting a sufficient number of like-minded individuals.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Countergod
10/19/06 03:13 PM
128.211.247.206
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What i said was based on the information I had. Admittedly, i did not look at it in the last 6-8 months, i was so sick of what i saw i threw it all down and gave up on the whole thing. If i have a doomsday impression, its because thats the impression i got from the material i could get my hands on and the convsersations with a friend of mine regarding it.
But as for the ROM thing, I had several discussions with a friend of mine about how one thing or another happened, and his response was always "the WoB ROM was here, the WoB knew what was happening, the WoB did this, the WoB could do that."
I am curious, the thing that first got me against the WoB Jihad was something i heard from my own Commando about 2 years ago. It was that the WoB found a bunch of factories that were formerly part of the Rim World Republic outside of Lyran space, and that they took that and made a huge army. I had many issues with that, but before i get into them, I want to know if that stuck or if that was misinformation.
Lastly, I have not read hotspots 3070, but that does not sound like the WoB that is described in FM:U or TRO:PP or by my friend. There are plenty of couched references to a grand plan, and in the dawn of the Jihad, they seem to know exactly what theyre doing when they depose Thomas Marik. Would you mind clarifying this for me please?
Edited by Countergod (10/19/06 03:16 PM)
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Cray
10/19/06 03:57 PM
147.160.136.10
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But as for the ROM thing, I had several discussions with a friend of mine about how one thing or another happened, and his response was always "the WoB ROM was here, the WoB knew what was happening, the WoB did this, the WoB could do that."
The only area where WoB ROM has excelled is in screwing with Comstar, and that's because WoB ROM is mostly built out of Comstar ROM - the result of the Schism. Many ROM agents went with WoB, but many other ROM agents who were sympathetic to WoB stayed in Comstar.
Let me see if I can make an analogy...
Let's say Washington DC gets a nutty ruler who, in his fanaticism, does something really stupid (akin to old Comstar's "Operation Scorpion.") The US ends up splitting apart: the East Coast, which backs the Old Order, vs the rest of the nation who avows to think the Old Order is daffy. Now, when the Western 2/3 of the nation tries to set up its own CIA, FBI, and military, it starts with all the old US stuff.
The Old Order is sitting on Washington and the HQ of all those services, and thus has an inside lead on everything the Western 2/3 of the US is doing. All of new FBI's and CIA's and military's chains of communication pass through DC and points East. There are many people in the West, and in those new agencies, who think it was a travesty for the US to split up and thus are sympathetic to the East. When it comes to operations against the Old Order, the Western 2/3 of the nation should never trust its own people, no matter how hard it tries to "clean house." Whole military units might defect to the Old Order, who claim to be maintaining the Torch of the Republic while the Western part publically claims to be charting a new path away from the Red, White, and Blue.
Word of Blake ended up in a position akin to the Old Order in the analogy above. It had Terra and thus all the old Comstar's agency HQs and it had many sympathizers in Comstar. WoB ROM is thus in a position to wreck havoc in new Comstar.
Elsewhere...
WoB has distinct limits. Do you have any particular over-the-top examples that bugged you?
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I am curious, the thing that first got me against the WoB Jihad was something i heard from my own Commando about 2 years ago. It was that the WoB found a bunch of factories that were formerly part of the Rim World Republic outside of Lyran space, and that they took that and made a huge army. I had many issues with that, but before i get into them, I want to know if that stuck or if that was misinformation.
Speaking as a fact checker who reviews all the draft documents of the Jihad before they're published...I don't know of any Rim World Republic factories in WoB use. They might be there, but they haven't figured in any of the drafts I've seen. WoB has enough factories on Terra and the open market that it doesn't need extra ones.
As for secret armies, I can't name WoB's "real" size, I can only speak to what's published.
If the Word of Blake, with its FWL and Terran and corporate resources, wanted to quickly build an army, it would (logically) be able to replicate the reconstruction of the Comguards in the post-3058 era (published but scattered info). In this period, the ComGuards grew at about the rate of 5 regiments per year, primarily by purchasing units off the open market (since they had lost Terra). By 3067, WoB would be in a position to have about 50 or 60 regiments (of mixed mechs and vehicles). That sounds big, but remember a 3025-era House typically had 55 to 110 battlemech regiments, backed up with 6 to 8 times as many infantry and vehicle regiments.
Logically, WoB would NOT have access to Terran SLDF stockpiles, which the Comguards depleted when the ComGuards first formed and then rebuilding very, very rapidly after Tukayyid. So, scratch those out from any calculations.
The wrench in these calculations is the mysterious "hidden 5 worlds," like the Ruins of Gabriel.
However, at the end of the day, WoB isn't conquering a lot of worlds. It seems to be huddling in its WoB Protectorate (the former Chaos March). It raids. It conquers a few planets and tries and tries to conquer a few others to the point that in 3072 WoB field commanders are lamenting the irreplaceable losses of troops. That doesn't really get on my scale of "huge armies."
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Lastly, I have not read hotspots 3070, but that does not sound like the WoB that is described in FM:U or TRO:PP or by my friend. There are plenty of couched references to a grand plan,
WoB DID have a grand plan. It's reviewed in the Isle of the Blessed serial on Battlecorps by a WoB commander leading the attack on New Avalon. Simply: WoB was planning to attack the Clans as a thank you gesture to the Star League. The Clans were abominations in the eyes of Blakist faith.
If this link doesn't work for you...
http://www.battlecorps.com/BC2/news.html?article=202
...I'll quote the relevant portion:
The Third Transfer. It is only weeks from us. Finally, some of the damage done by Focht will be undone. Finally, we will be in a position to further curb the increasingly vicious wars that are prevalent. Finally, we will be able to neutralize the Clan threat, with the last Great Army humanity will ever have to unleash on his fellow man.
Some bonus material explaining, from a WoB commander's eyes, why WoB was at New Avalon:
I will be there, when the Third Transfer will occur, at New Avalon. In the colors of the Star League, we will present an olive branch to one of the realms who has been the Order's most stalwart opponent. We will offer them aid to rebuild after the senseless civil war. We will offer them protection. We will offer them friendship and forgiveness as a demonstration of what the Star League truly means.
And then the Star League collapsed a little while later, throwing the WoB plan into confusion. The WoB "protectors" at New Avalon became attackers, and they got their butts thrown off the planet in just a few months.
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and in the dawn of the Jihad, they seem to know exactly what theyre doing when they depose Thomas Marik. Would you mind clarifying this for me please?
Skimming through Dawn of the Jihad...it looks like Thomas Marik was in power for quite a few months after the Jihad began. In fact, he seemed to be in power as late as September of 3068.
That means WoB had plenty of time to plan to do something with their former pawn after the Jihad began. No pre-Jihad planning is needed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Countergod
10/20/06 04:26 AM
128.211.247.206
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Okay i will divide conversation 1 (the WoB ROM and Comstar) into three different parts. ROM's reach, WoB vs Comstar, and WoB's manufacturing capacity.
1a: My friend was telling me that the WoB had their fingers everywhere, which seemed confirmed by the Marian - Confederation war, the extent to which the WoB had infiltrated the FWLM, and (by his own words) the amount that the other houses' intel agencies were infiltrated. He was saying the WoB pretty much knew what the entire state of the IS was after the fedcom civil war and was able to hit and strike with precision, targeting various things surgically and causing general havok everywhere. Is this true, or was this exaggerated?
1b: WoB vs Comstar.... as of 3067, WoB has 10 divisions, vs Comstar's 50. It seems like Comstar could roll over the WoB at any time of its choosing with the vast difference in firepower. Even if you gave the WoB triple the army (which ill cover in 1c) it still would be a very one sided battle. Yes, Comstar is probably infiltrated heavily by WoB and there would be no chance of a surprise attack, but WoB is also infiltrated in some degree by Comstar as well. How much would Comstar know, and what would/did stop comstar from rolling over WoB as soon as the Great Refusal was resolved, since even if the WoB had 30 divisions availible in 3067, it would get trampled by the Comguards, say nothing of all 4 of the other IS powers not infiltrated by WoB?
1c: Construction of armies. I know FASA and Wizkids did not specify how many mechs a single battlemech production line makes, but they have been (somewhat) consistant on giving grand estimates, such as it would take decades to rebuild the LAAF and AFFS after the civil war, and the FWLM would add 2 mech regiments per year (FM:FWL, circa 3059) This combined with an exaustive effort to research and compile every currently constructed mech that each house has led me to make an estimate that each mech line (which produces one mech of a certain class) can build 8 per year. It seems rather... slow for a factory, but ill shrug my shoulders. I do not want to see a faster rate (such as something more along the lines of how fast a single tank factory can produce in the US) because it would mean that the LAAF could literally replace its entire pre civil war army in 4 years... and I dont wanna see 500 mech regiments built in the next decade lol. So leading from this number, the FWL's productive capacity would produce about 2.5 mechs per year, which is in line with what was said in FM:FWL, and the LAAF could rebuild to its pre FedCom civil war in 11 years. Now in order for the WoB to expand from 10 divisions (assuming they had 10 divisions in 3058 when they siezed terra, and they put all of Terra's factories to work right then) Terra would have to have the equivalent mech production output of the entire FWL! That seems a touch off, even by the standard that Terra is the cradle of Humanity and the capital of the old Terran Hegemony. If you wanna grow at the 5 regiments you stated above... well Terra itself would have to have the manufacturing capacity of half the innersphere! (and lets not talk about resource requirements for that....)
topic 2: WoB's plans
I got the impression from the Circinus Confederation thing in FM:U that the WoB's motives were decidedly more sinister even before the 3067 Whitting Conference. That, along with other slight references throughout FM:U, TRO:PP, TRO:3067, and a written story (i forgot if it was taken from the CBT website or one of the Jihad book previews) leaves the distinct impression that the WoB was planning on a full invasion even before hand (i mean... they had the nukes onboard their ships at tharkad....) Is this impression false? because if it is... then pretty much every btech player ive spoken to has the wrong impresion, and it would partly explain why there's so much hostility towards this Jihad.
topic 3: the back writing required for the Jihad. Okay... i admit i dont know much about the warship graveyard (i was under the impression from my friend it was a mothball yard where kerensky stored about 100 or so ships that he decided not to take with him on his exodus). But was this mentioned ANYWHERE else in the entire Btech universe? and after 300 years, howcome noone else ever found it? i mean... with all the jumps people were doing in all the years of the wars, NOONE found it?
And as for the Rim World worlds, you said "in use" does that mean there are Rim world planets out there which did NOT get absorbed into the LA, or was that entire thing wrong, and there are no planets sitting out there at all?
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman |
Cray
10/20/06 09:43 AM
147.160.136.10
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1a: My friend was telling me that the WoB had their fingers everywhere, which seemed confirmed by the Marian - Confederation war
I wouldn't take wars and small military operations like the Marian antics as indicative of anything special on WoB's part. How many little covert operations does the US support around Terra today in addition to a couple of majorish wars? The US has 300 million people; WoB has at least 20x as many people on Terra alone, not to mention all its adherants elsewhere.
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, the extent to which the WoB had infiltrated the FWLM
That's a special case. I mean, let's face it: old Comstar put in a puppet leader in the form of false Thomas Marik in the 3030s. This loyal puppet looked at Comstar and WoB after the Schism and said, "I like WoB better. WoB, you can come into my nation and do whatever you want."
What're you going to do when your highest level of government is backing the use of WoB's aid and personnel throughout the FWLM? Can you imagine the havoc in the US during the Cold War if, on the dawn of WW3, Canada suddenly swapped sides to the Russians? NORAD was staffed with mixed Americans and Canadians and the entire northern defenses depended on Canada.
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, and (by his own words) the amount that the other houses' intel agencies were infiltrated.
That's not correct. In fact, Dawn of the Jihad has a closing section that shows Inner Sphere intel agencies had a pretty good eye on WoB, too. Dawn of the Jihad, section "Hidden Armies" (right before "Aftershocks"). It's on pg117 if the pagination of the .pdf drafts match the hard copy.
"Following the fall of Terra to the Word of Blake, the [intelligence] community had known of the Blakists' Deep Periphery training camps. Likewise, the Blakists' acquisition of so many new Battlemechs...led analysts to postulate (correctly) that the Word of Blake had more troops than they officially acknowledged. The elaborate shell game...succeeded in hiding their location, but not their existance."
"As to intent, the intelligence community (again, correctly) judged that these forces would safeguard Blakist holdings. ...the Word of Blake wanted to establish a buffer zone, finally resulting in the formation of the Word of Blake Protectorate. ... The Blakist-sponsored violence on Outreach was shocking, but unsurprising in light of the veiled declaraction of war represented by the formation of the AMC."
"The rest of the Inner was not oblivious to all this, but they were in no position to take action against a probationary member-state of the Star League over dealings with a non-aligned state. If challenged, the Blakists could have argued that the whole affair lay outside the jurisdiction of the Star League council-or even called on the Star League to come to their aid."
"The intelligence community is only "guilty" of failing to predict how the Word of Blake would react to a situation that did not yet exist. Not knowing the Star League would not survive the fourth Whitting Conference, they had no way to guess what was coming."
Note that prior to 3025, Comstar hid the ComGuards for over a century. Per DotJ, the WoB militia was much better known to the Inner Sphere than the ComGuards.
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He was saying the WoB pretty much knew what the entire state of the IS was after the fedcom civil war and was able to hit and strike with precision, targeting various things surgically and causing general havok everywhere. Is this true, or was this exaggerated?
Very exaggerated. The places that WoB hit tended to be public knowledge sorts of places: critical shipyards, battlemech factories, and other places that had been in the public eye for centuries. (Battletech's factories tend to be centuries old, right?) You can get the required information on those places with local internet searches, tourist info, and sensor data from passing civilian spacecraft.
Its like the US: exactly how many of its continental US military bases are actually hidden from the public eye? You can find latitude and longitude on most of them with Mapquest, plus driving directions for your cruise missiles.
WoB's intelligence shortcomings are graphically highlighted in the 3 Battles of New Avalon, in the Isle of the Blessed series. They were perpetually blind to the plans and doings of the defenders. They couldn't capture the AFFS leadership worth a damn. Their first attack, with the "olive branch" troops, lasted only weeks. Now, if WoB knew everything it needed about the AFFS, it was pretty damned stupid to attack with such insufficient forces. Its second attack did no better - if you can read those journals I linked in, you can see the WoB commander griping about the lack of intel on the AFFS and how the AFFS was much more prepared than the WoB militia. The third invasion of New Avalon lasted a long time, but WoB's effort was mostly stumbling in the dark - it couldn't find a secret mech factory, it couldn't find Jackson Davion, it couldn't find AFFS troops, etc.
The "Isle of the Blessed" serial describes WoB's intelligence efforts in detail. Mostly, they don't know much.
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1b: WoB vs Comstar.... as of 3067, WoB has 10 divisions, vs Comstar's 50. It seems like Comstar could roll over the WoB at any time of its choosing with the vast difference in firepower. Even if you gave the WoB triple the army (which ill cover in 1c) it still would be a very one sided battle.
In fact, Comstar had a plan to roll over WoB, Case White. However, the problem with the "10 vs 50 regiments" thing is that those are ground forces. Before you can line up 100 regiments against 20 regiments, you need to get those troops from your planet to his planet. In the space in between, there be monsters.
Based on Case White descriptions in Dawn of the Jihad, WoB had apparently reactivated Terra's SDS system and made happy with the nukes in space. That gave WoB the advantage in space, so only a few ComGuard regiments reached the ground, where they were heavily outnumbered.
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since even if the WoB had 30 divisions availible in 3067, it would get trampled by the Comguards, say nothing of all 4 of the other IS powers not infiltrated by WoB?
These other four powers you're talking about. Are they the Capellan Confederation (being overwhelmed by the Federated Suns), the Lyran Alliance (at war with the FWL and Clans, and with a paralyzed leadership), the Draconis Combine (beset by the Clans and invaded by the Federated Suns with a civil war on its capital planet), and the Federated Suns (who's regional capitals were fighting border wars against the Capellans and Combine while the central government warred with the Taurians)?
Now, if communications had been perfect and all the House leaders had a clear, player's-eye view of the Jihad, then sure they'd just all gang up on WoB and end it. But they don't have that view. The Houses are in a situation where their centuries-old enemies are at war with them. Punk upstarts like WoB nipping at their heels don't quite require immediate attention. In fact, it takes about 4 years for the Inner Sphere to shift gears, compare notes, set aside rivalries, and muster their war-crippled militaries to focus on WoB.
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1c: Construction of armies. I know FASA and Wizkids did not specify how many mechs a single battlemech production line makes, but they have been (somewhat) consistant on giving grand estimates, such as it would take decades to rebuild the LAAF and AFFS after the civil war, and the FWLM would add 2 mech regiments per year (FM:FWL, circa 3059) This combined with an exaustive effort to research and compile every currently constructed mech that each house has led me to make an estimate that each mech line (which produces one mech of a certain class) can build 8 per year.
Your estimates are incorrect. I recommend you download the 3025-era House Sourcebooks from CBT.com:
http://www.classicbattletech.com/index.php?action=downloads
Per pg117 (of 172 in the .pdf), the 3025-era FWLM was acquiring 484 battlemechs per year at an average of 14.23 mechs per line.
Per pg107 (of 167 in the .pdf), the 3025-era CCAF was acquiring 400 battlemechs per year at an average of 50 per location.
You can find more examples in those books. Davion has a single Valkyrie line on New Avalon producing 110 mechs per year.
The rule of thumb among writers is that production has roughly trebled by 3067.
About that FM:FWL quote? Sure, the FWLM is adding 2 regiments per year in 3067, but it's also replacing over eight thousand battlemechs that are centuries old while replacing losses.
The ComGuards set another benchmark:
Prior to Tukayyid (3052), the ComGuards had 72 "divisions" (144 combined arms regiments), including 50 battlemech regiments. 40% percent of that force was killed at Tukayyid (~57 regiments). Of the remaining force, another 35-40% were wounded. The Comstar SB lists the total number of casualties (incl. deserters) as about 59 divisions/118 regiments (leaving 26 untouched regiments out of 144.)
By 3055, the Comstar SB says the ComGuards were back to 70% of their pre-Tukayyid strength. That's a 74-regiment reconstruction in 3 years (24.7 regiments/year). Focht achieved this reconstruction primarily by exhausting old SLDF stockpiles on Terra - the mechs were already built.
In 3062, the Schism and loss of Terra had drained Comstar to 60% of its pre-Tukayyid state (86 regiments). Many losses were due to desertions to WoB - the ComGuards were appalled that Victor Steiner-Davion had become the Precentor Martial (FM: Comstar).
By 3067, ComGuards were back up to 50 divisions (100 regiments.) That suggests a 14 regiment growth in 5 years, BUT during this time the ComGuards bled out 14 regiments in the FC Civil War. So during this period, the ComGuards actually rebuilt a total of 28 regiments. Since the ComGuards no longer had Terran stockpiles or factories, the Inner Sphere's military industry was able to sell Comstar 5.6 regiments per year in the 3062-3067 period. At the same time, the FCCW and Clan conflicts were inhaling units.
Again, Comstar did not have Terra in that period. Terra was a primary supplier for the SLDF and, as you should note in the latest TROs (3060, 3067, Phoenix), a lot of those Terran factories are open under WoB.
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topic 2: WoB's plans
I got the impression from the Circinus Confederation thing in FM:U that the WoB's motives were decidedly more sinister even before the 3067 Whitting Conference.
Yeah, Circinus's references are the oddball out. However, the more recent "Shadows of Faith" and "Isle of the Blessed" give direct, explicit input from WoB leadership. You actually get to see WoB leadership discussing the Whitting Conference and the Third Transfer in the first chapter of "Shadows of Faith."
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That, along with other slight references throughout FM:U, TRO:PP, TRO:3067, and a written story (i forgot if it was taken from the CBT website or one of the Jihad book previews) leaves the distinct impression that the WoB was planning on a full invasion even before hand
WoB was planning a massive attack on the Clan invasion corridor. It took about 100 regiments to destroy 1 Clan with Operation Bulldog. Destroying the other Clans in the Inner Sphere would be an epic effort by any faction.
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(i mean... they had the nukes onboard their ships at tharkad....)
No, WoB did not have nukes at Tharkad. Per the Mechwarrior: Dark Age website's "Touring the Stars" articles, the WoB conventional orbital bombardment caused an industrial accident involving a very large conventional explosion (equivalent to tens to hundreds of tons of TNT). The industrial facility in question processed nuclear waste, hence the fallout. A full description is coming up in the Tech Manual.
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Is this impression false?
You've got most of the facts in place. Where you're taking those facts seems biased by earlier player fears about how lame the Jihad was. In fact, I think the latest releases about the Jihad tie up a lot of those facts nicely.
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because if it is... then pretty much every btech player ive spoken to has the wrong impresion, and it would partly explain why there's so much hostility towards this Jihad.
Exactly. Many players were so appalled at the early rumors about the Jihad that they still haven't checked to get their facts straight, and so you're stuck with a lot of people with incorrect impressions about the game.
The release of the Jihad information was handled badly, IMO. The Jihad started stirring up just after FASA folded and Wizkids (run by BT's creators) took over and looked to adapt Battletech to the Clix games. The decision was made to give Classic Battletech to a former FASA licensee, FanPro, while Wizkids would write about Battletech some 70 years in the future.
Rather than rob FanPro of all of its potential sourcebooks by just giving a "tell all" description of the Jihad for MWDA, Wizkids mostly kept the Jihad's history quiet. It only revealed a very changed Inner Sphere in MWDA. So CBT fans were stuck looking at an inexplicably changed Inner Sphere. They only had rumor and hearsay to go on, and often drew the worst conclusions. I think the problem was Wizkid's jumping ahead to reveal the MWDA - they should've introduced a Clix game set in the same era as CBT.com. IMO.
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topic 3: the back writing required for the Jihad. Okay... i admit i dont know much about the warship graveyard (i was under the impression from my friend it was a mothball yard where kerensky stored about 100 or so ships that he decided not to take with him on his exodus). But was this mentioned ANYWHERE else in the entire Btech universe? and after 300 years, howcome noone else ever found it? i mean... with all the jumps people were doing in all the years of the wars, NOONE found it?
It's a staple of the Battletech universe that Star League caches, factories, and secret bases are hidden everywhere under people's noses. Like the Memory Core: that was on the heavily populated FWL planet Helm and it took until 3025 for someone to find a huge hidden base?
The Ruins of Gabriel at least have a decent excuse to stay hidden. They are apparently in an uninhabited star system, and in BT, you just don't take jumpships to uninhabited star systems. Jumpship captains always use standard jump points, and always stick to inhabited systems whenever possible. Jumpships are much more flexible than that, but since the Succession Wars made them so rare and precious, you don't go hopping around into the dark corners of the Inner Sphere for giggles.
Plus, old Comstar made maps for jumpships. Old Comstar also ran active efforts to hide SLDF military bases from the Inner Sphere. Comstar might've had SLDF maps that showed where Gabriel was, but the other factions? They got their maps from Comstar. And then Comstar lost its headquarters and map archives when WoB took over Terra.
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And as for the Rim World worlds, you said "in use" does that mean there are Rim world planets out there which did NOT get absorbed into the LA, or was that entire thing wrong, and there are no planets sitting out there at all?
IIRC, the Lyran Commonwealth absorbed about 30-40% of the wealthiest RWR worlds. A few (a half dozen?) have formed the Rim Collection. The Star's End pirates represent the only known, operational Rim Worlds Republic military factory left. All the other Rim Worlds planets are just destitute Periphery planets now, or dead for lack of critical technology (like many other planets in the Succession Wars.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
10/22/06 09:18 PM
216.14.198.52
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I can't think of a readymade one off the top of my head. However, if you're motivated on the issue, go for it. There are plenty of BT forums that can host the discussions. It's a matter of collecting a sufficient number of like-minded individuals.
MoB (Mother of Battletech) were one group with their own plot which seemed fairly active for awhile.
I'd more look at not using the current battletech universe in itself but make your own universe from scratch. Whether that would be following the miss-jump storyline similar to but without the 'talking budgies' of one of the novels (Like Star Lord, good idea but very poorly written up) or just have Terra and a different setup of planets and factions.
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Cray
10/22/06 09:35 PM
66.143.22.137
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I'd more look at not using the current battletech universe in itself but make your own universe from scratch. Whether that would be following the miss-jump storyline similar to but without the 'talking budgies' of one of the novels (Like Star Lord, good idea but very poorly written up) or just have Terra and a different setup of planets and factions.
And that's all some fun stuff. I've got quite a few alternate histories laying around.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
10/22/06 09:49 PM
216.14.198.52
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And that's all some fun stuff. I've got quite a few alternate histories laying around.
Many players do, but I haven't really seen a concerted effort from a group on this that has held water. Perhaps construct a strategic system for a campaign, play it out and then fill in the rest with fluff. Certainly more believable than a battlemaster taking on Death Commandos etc and winning since you can back it up with actual battlelogs.
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Countergod
10/25/06 04:43 AM
128.211.247.206
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Whew, okay first off, thank you for devoting so much time and effort to answering my questions O.O You're really doing a good job there. You're right, I'm getting most of my info from players, combined with a small smattering from one of my previous commandos (from about 4 years ago, so his info may have been way off too)
I gotta say i like the picture you're painting a lot better than the one that i had preimagined. It seems a lot more realistic and less uber-WoBish.
Its late, and im only going to ask one follow up question for now (ive been very busy these last few days :/) More will definitely come later.
If a mechline produces 14 battle mechs a year (lets say 16 just to make it exactly double my above estimation, and to account for a few advances in technology since 3025). It would take 5 years for the Lyran Alliance to replace its battle losses (mech wise, soldier wise may be another story) How can this be justified with the FM:U and FedCom Civil War estimates of decades?
Also, its been about 20 years since the first recovered tech units started to come out. How is it possible that in 20 years (again taking the lyran alliance example) that not all mechs are designs either fully upgraded with recovered tech, or mechs produced since 3051 (when 3050 was written to come out). The Lyran Alliance alone could have produced well over 150 mech regiments. God only knows how many upgrade kits could be produced with the weapons/technology base required to support that kind of industry.
Stemming from the above, I'm pretty sure that the Alliance has not lost over 100 mech regiments in the last 20 years. They lost 30 or so in the civil war, and maybe 40-50 in the clan war. They should have had well over 100 before the civil war and reasonably still 60 or more, by those production numbers.
I've found its always been a paradox of Battletech: You cant have a reasonable production rate without sending the number of mechs through the roof (and leaving the scarsity of mechs in the succession wars in question), but the game designers have always been adamant on keeping the numbers down instead of allowing the number to inflate.
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman |
Cray
10/25/06 09:08 AM
66.143.22.137
|
Quote:
If a mechline produces 14 battle mechs a year (lets say 16 just to make it exactly double my above estimation, and to account for a few advances in technology since 3025).
That's still low. See my prior post on the matter. In 3067, a House should be capable of about 800 to 1500 mechs per year.
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It would take 5 years for the Lyran Alliance to replace its battle losses (mech wise, soldier wise may be another story) How can this be justified with the FM:U and FedCom Civil War estimates of decades?
Two reasons:
1) Any claims about reconstruction from the Civil War are not likely limited to military losses, but all damage to infrastructure and civilian assets. The US South was impoverished from the US Civil War effectively until WW2, when investment finally poured into the South.
2) It's exaggeration. In-character writings about the scope of war, the cost of the military, and so forth tend to be greatly exaggerated to make it sound like BT militaries actually have an impact on the setting.
For example, Victor Steiner-Davion once said that a warship cost as much as the GDP of a planet - which is pure BS, unless you're talking about a Periphery planet with a population in the millions. In fact, a single capital planet (or any major planet) is capable of supporting an entire House military.
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Also, its been about 20 years since the first recovered tech units started to come out.
Closer to 40 years. See Mercenary Supplement 2 for tech recovery dates by Inner Sphere faction.
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How is it possible that in 20 years (again taking the lyran alliance example) that not all mechs are designs either fully upgraded with recovered tech, or mechs produced since 3051 (when 3050 was written to come out).
1) Note the old Star League, per TR:2750, rarely used L2 tech. Few mechs had more than a couple of advanced items even at the height of the Star League. The Star League didn't even bother to design late-model mechs with more than a handful of advanced items. Heck, even the Clans still use older-style equipment in some cases.
2) Not all mechs belong to factions or units with easy access to advanced technology. Mercenaries can't afford or can't acquire access to high tech. Planetary militias don't rate advanced tech, either.
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I've found its always been a paradox of Battletech: You cant have a reasonable production rate without sending the number of mechs through the roof (and leaving the scarsity of mechs in the succession wars in question), but the game designers have always been adamant on keeping the numbers down instead of allowing the number to inflate.
Indeed. I was just part in a long rant on this on CBT.com, though I was pointing out that vastly larger numbers were possible given the population and economy of the Inner Sphere. I provided a link to the discussion earlier.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (10/25/06 09:10 AM)
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Countergod
10/26/06 04:20 AM
128.211.247.175
|
Quote:
1) Any claims about reconstruction from the Civil War are not likely limited to military losses, but all damage to infrastructure and civilian assets. The US South was impoverished from the US Civil War effectively until WW2, when investment finally poured into the South.
2) It's exaggeration. In-character writings about the scope of war, the cost of the military, and so forth tend to be greatly exaggerated to make it sound like BT militaries actually have an impact on the setting.
For example, Victor Steiner-Davion once said that a warship cost as much as the GDP of a planet - which is pure BS, unless you're talking about a Periphery planet with a population in the millions. In fact, a single capital planet (or any major planet) is capable of supporting an entire House military.
I am at school right now, and dont have most of my btech books with me, but i would refer you to pg 122 of FM:U, where it does say it will take decades for the AFFS to replace its material losses.
I understand the other point, and ive always wondered about that myself. I think you may be exaggerating your point a touch (50-70 mech regiments + hundreds of conventional + several warships from just one planet?) I would say maybe 4-5 regiments + supporting conventional regiments + say... one warship for a high profile planet such as tharkad, donegal, Alarion, Luthien or New Avalon would be very reasonable.
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1) Note the old Star League, per TR:2750, rarely used L2 tech. Few mechs had more than a couple of advanced items even at the height of the Star League. The Star League didn't even bother to design late-model mechs with more than a handful of advanced items. Heck, even the Clans still use older-style equipment in some cases.
2) Not all mechs belong to factions or units with easy access to advanced technology. Mercenaries can't afford or can't acquire access to high tech. Planetary militias don't rate advanced tech, either.
You are right that the old SL did not make wide use of its weapons as it could have (which probably cost them in the Amaris Civil War) but the last 20 years of btech universe have had a push to bring all availible technologies onto mechs and vehicles as they could as fast as they could, and deploy them to all the units they could as fast as they could. The sheer size and manufacturing power that we have determined the houses have make me wonder why any level 1 tech remain in the house militaries.
As for the Clans... as powerful as their militaries are, and as potent as their weapons and warriors are, they are NOT a large faction. FM:U shows about 30 worlds, and maybe a hundred colonies... aka smaller than the Cappelan Confederation. I doubt their military production capacity has the ability to keep up with thier constant trials, which would explain the use of starleague era equipment. I meant the other comment (why isnt the entire inner sphere level 2 by now after 20 years) to mean the house militaries, not the periphery realms, and most certainly not the mercenary commands who, by and large, cannot afford it (wolf dragoons, Kell hounds, and a few others being rare exceptions and almost always having some sort of larger state power feeding it)
as for the first four points in your previous post (intel and infiltration of the houses) I cannot argue against you. You work for FASA, you've seen and read the books i havent had time to (or i admit, the will to read, with my predisposed fears of what i would read)
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Yeah, Circinus's references are the oddball out. However, the more recent "Shadows of Faith" and "Isle of the Blessed" give direct, explicit input from WoB leadership. You actually get to see WoB leadership discussing the Whitting Conference and the Third Transfer in the first chapter of "Shadows of Faith."
It was not just the FM:U references, it was also the Project Phoenix reference (I loved how it started... Anastasius Focht is a fool  ) That seemed to couche that Comstar had some inkling (or at least that precentor) that WoB's motives were more sinister. Another good one is the FM:U references all over the FWL section showing how much they've infiltrated. (all the references of supporting the WoB when the time comes, and access to Regulus' WMD stockpiles)
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WoB was planning a massive attack on the Clan invasion corridor. It took about 100 regiments to destroy 1 Clan with Operation Bulldog. Destroying the other Clans in the Inner Sphere would be an epic effort by any faction.
I believe the number was more around 50-60 for Operation bulldog, though i am not quite sure, but they steamrolled CSJ (heh heh.. Smoked Jaguars.... somehow fitting, all things considered). I think that one house who's military is not heaviliy damaged by war (see my thing below) could actually slog through a clan OZ, assuming it stayed one on one.
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No, WoB did not have nukes at Tharkad. Per the Mechwarrior: Dark Age website's "Touring the Stars" articles, the WoB conventional orbital bombardment caused an industrial accident involving a very large conventional explosion (equivalent to tens to hundreds of tons of TNT). The industrial facility in question processed nuclear waste, hence the fallout. A full description is coming up in the Tech Manual.
Could you describe in more detail on what happened there? I only read the CBT.com preview which had the reporter going "Mein Gott... the Archon!", so i dont quite know what happened. What was that nuclear explosion, and what happened to pete afterwards?
AS for the Case White thing... I actually had made an alternate reality universe (which is where i was able to pull up the numbers on manufacture real fast, I spent about 4 months trying to reconsile everything that i could piece together to come up with reasonable manufacturing numbers that fit in with the more recent printed materiels). The way i had things go is that the Lyrans chose not to host the Whitting Conference on Tharkad, and chose not to even participate, meaning that the vote to disband the Star League was tied (and did not go through). My friend mentioned that the wobbies were mad about the disbanding and attacked the planets which voted for the resolution to end the SL, so i figured a good break point in the history would be that. Things just simmered for 3 years with the WoB realizing that the SL was falling apart and making their plans for the Jihad. The first thing was to spark a fight between the FWL and the weakend LA, which happened at the 3070 Whitting conference (again on Tharkad) where the duke of tamarind (i think thats the right planet... the one with the Impavido production facility and the fake Tommy Marik's right hand man) is killed by an assassin. The initial investigation points the finger at WoB ROM agents (oops...) but the second round (mad scramble to fix that booboo by the Wobbies) shows that it was really an LIC job, which the LA (very truthfully) denies. The FWLM does a full invasion of the LA, but stops cold when the LAAF is much stronger than intel suggests (heavy investment to upgrade thier mech facilities and make more mechs, putting the LA in heavy debt), then completely turns around when Peter successfully bargains with Phelan kell to assist and the forces deployed to Skye for... heh... fixing some internal problems is able to redeploy to attack. (if you want to knwo about the skye thing, that was a really fun idea i got with the help of bouncing the ideas off my friend, but its too long to go into so ill not say it unless you wanna know). The net result was that the FWL actually lost several imporant systems such as Tamarind, Kalidassa, Oliver, Sirius and Irian. This leads to a huge wave of unpopularity against thomas marik in the FWL congress, and (after he finds out that it actually WAS the WoB who killed the guy and sparked the war) the WoB reveals that Thomas is not the real thomas and the FWL decends into a civil war, which the WoB uses to pretty much take over teh entire FWL.
Meanwhile the CAppie confedi is crushed by the AFFS (I think that happened in the official history too?) over the whole Tinonov thing, and Comstar starts to see exactly what the WoB is planning (im using hte more sinister plans that I thought were in place. I liked the idea, i just thought it happened too fast. So Comstar invades Terra (i guess the same thing as Case white) and fails when the wobbies use the Reagen SDS, warships they picked up from Gabriel, and nukes to destroy most of the attacking force, and crush the rest. Its kinda scary actually how much my ideas coincide with what you've been telling me about the jihad >.> lol. Oh one change: Victor SD dies at the head of that invasion.
If you can answer, how close is this to the entire official history of the Jihad. I had intended to make it more realistic (and slower) compared to what i thought happened. I made the WoB intentions more sinister from the start than what you described and made it more drawn out and stuff, but it actually sounds a LOT like what you described to me, which is why im pestering you with it (lol).
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman |
Cray
10/26/06 11:22 PM
66.143.22.137
|
Quote:
I am at school right now, and dont have most of my btech books with me, but i would refer you to pg 122 of FM:U, where it does say it will take decades for the AFFS to replace its material losses.
Oh, that falls under "exaggeration" then.
Quote:
I understand the other point, and ive always wondered about that myself. I think you may be exaggerating your point a touch (50-70 mech regiments + hundreds of conventional + several warships from just one planet?) I would say maybe 4-5 regiments + supporting conventional regiments + say... one warship for a high profile planet such as tharkad, donegal, Alarion, Luthien or New Avalon would be very reasonable.
Hmm. You didn't read my links in CBT.com, so we have to redo the math. M'kay.
Fact 1: A typical "high profile" BT planet has 5 to 8 billion people. (Examples: 7 billion at New Avalon and Tharkad, 8 billion on Atreus.) See the House Steiner Handbook, House Marik Handbook, Shattered Sphere, etc.
Fact 2: Average annual income in the Inner Sphere approaches 10,000CB per person (averaged over wage earners and deadbeats like young kids and the unemployed). See the House Steiner Handbook, much older House Liao Sourcebook, etc.
Now, average GDP for a "high profile" planet is (to be conservative) 5 billion x 10,000CB = 50 trillion CB.
In the rather tax-lite US, taxes amount to 30% of income, give or take a bit. So, to be conservative, this typical high profile planet and federal government all other levels of government are drawing 15 trillion CB in taxes (30% of 50 trillion.)
Borrowing again from the US, the local defense department is drawing 20% of taxes: 20% of 15 trillion is 3 trillion CB for the military-industrial complex. Do you want references or can you look up US federal expenditure fractions?
And borrowing yet again from the US, defense expenditures average 80% on maintenance, wages, base upkeep, research, and operations, while 20% are spent annually on procurement. 20% of this high profile planet's procurement is 600 billion CB.
Now, what can you buy for 600 billion CB per year?
25 McKenna-class battleships; or
24,000 100-ton, XL-powered battlemechs (240 regiments); or
428,000 Myrmidon Medium Tanks
Try spending 600 billion CB for a decade on a military. You'd have a warship fleet to match any House; jumpship and dropship transports to move a planetary population (<--hyperbole); twice as many mech regiments as the AFFC at its peak; and all the conventional supporting units you could ever want. And that's without tapping the other 80% of your military budget.
When I say, "A single planet can support an entire House military," I'm not exaggerating. I'm being conservative. Battletech's population and economy can afford vastly, vastly larger militaries than are present in canon.
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The sheer size and manufacturing power that we have determined the houses have make me wonder why any level 1 tech remain in the house militaries.
Probably for the same reason that the US keeps older gear in service. I've spent the past week crawling over B52s and KC135s looking for "aging aircraft issues," and none of them were built after 1963. The B52s will be in service when I'm gumming cream corn in a retirement home decades from now. Some of those older designs work quite well in BT, and some just keep missing the right funding window to be replaced or upgraded.
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As for the Clans... as powerful as their militaries are, and as potent as their weapons and warriors are, they are NOT a large faction.
Oh, I know. Prior to acquiring hundreds of billions of Inner Sphere tax payers, the Clans had one of the most believeable economies and military sizes in BT.
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Yeah, Circinus's references are the oddball out. However, the more recent "Shadows of Faith" and "Isle of the Blessed" give direct, explicit input from WoB leadership. You actually get to see WoB leadership discussing the Whitting Conference and the Third Transfer in the first chapter of "Shadows of Faith."
It was not just the FM:U references, it was also the Project Phoenix reference (I loved how it started... Anastasius Focht is a fool ) That seemed to couche that Comstar had some inkling (or at least that precentor) that WoB's motives were more sinister.
Again, FM:U and Project Phoenix predate the Battlecorps stories, so you have to take FM:U and PP in light of the new information - which is that WoB was planning to attack the Clans.
Further, this is a gimme: you know Comstar is going to interpret WoB's actions in the worst possible light.
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Another good one is the FM:U references all over the FWL section showing how much they've infiltrated. (all the references of supporting the WoB when the time comes, and access to Regulus' WMD stockpiles)
That doesn't alter the Battlecorps issue at all. WoB had big plans. The FWL made it possible.
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WoB was planning a massive attack on the Clan invasion corridor. It took about 100 regiments to destroy 1 Clan with Operation Bulldog. Destroying the other Clans in the Inner Sphere would be an epic effort by any faction.
Quote:
Could you describe in more detail on what happened there? I only read the CBT.com preview which had the reporter going "Mein Gott... the Archon!", so i dont quite know what happened. What was that nuclear explosion, and what happened to pete afterwards?
The only details I can give are that (to paraphrase the MWDA site) a "fusion reactor went critical." That's not quite correct, but the exact details won't appear until the upcoming Tech Manual is published.
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Meanwhile the CAppie confedi is crushed by the AFFS (I think that happened in the official history too?)
The AFFS as a whole didn't attack the Capellans. It was just the Capellan March, which did a pretty good job until some warships showed up and bombarded Sian, inspiring a heroic response by the CCAF to throw the March militia back.
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Oh one change: Victor SD dies at the head of that invasion.
Yay! 
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If you can answer, how close is this to the entire official history of the Jihad.
There are some similarities. WoB had plans for war afoot when the Star League collapsed. It invoked truly sinister plans when the Star League DID collapse - it tried to burn out the infidels. Notably, it failed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Countergod
10/27/06 12:08 AM
128.211.247.175
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I will not quote your thing on the GDP, only nod my head knowing exaclty how true that is Well... you did exaggerate something... the US spends well more than 20% of its annual budget on military, esp right now with a war going on.
I understand that some older DESIGNS are kept in service, but all the older equipment in the US military is updated every once in a while with new technology. Perhaps the most extreme example is the Iowa Class Battleships, which were repeatedly updated since WWII (the most recent updates were just before the 1991 gulf war).
Beyond that, it is politicians, not the military industrial complex which determines how upgrades are dolled out, which units are grown etc etc. One would imagine that the politics of an Inner Sphere house would be significantly different from that of the United States Congress, and more funding would be devoted to upgrading that equipment more rapidly....
Quote:
The only details I can give are that (to paraphrase the MWDA site) a "fusion reactor went critical." That's not quite correct, but the exact details won't appear until the upcoming Tech Manual is published.
I understand completely. Would you be able to tell me if Peter Steiner Davion survived or no?
Quote:
The AFFS as a whole didn't attack the Capellans. It was just the Capellan March, which did a pretty good job until some warships showed up and bombarded Sian, inspiring a heroic response by the CCAF to throw the March militia back.
Yea i have it slightly different. Yvonne authorizes a full military action against the CC and pretty much destroys them (combined with the Andurians and Orientens who help out on the other side, part of the whole collapse of the FWL structure)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh one change: Victor SD dies at the head of that invasion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yay!
Wanna help me grow my alt universe? 
One more aside question, if you could: FM:LA states that the First Royal BA regiment was almost 6 months of production. According to TRO:3058U, the only BA in production in the LA is the Fenrir. Am i to assume that a regiment of BA is produced in 6 months, or were there others in production before 3070 which got canceled?
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman |
Cray
10/27/06 08:20 AM
66.143.22.137
|
Quote:
I will not quote your thing on the GDP, only nod my head knowing exaclty how true that is Well... you did exaggerate something... the US spends well more than 20% of its annual budget on military, esp right now with a war going on.
Citing an anti-war network which is fast and loose with numbers, the US did spend about 30% of the federal budget in war time (2004AD). However, the US federal budget is only 20% of the GDP. In my last post, I used 30% to capture all taxes: local, state, federal, interplanetary, etc. That means my "20% of all taxes for the military" is equivalent to US federal spending.
Plus, I was being conservative - downplaying available funds. I could've used a more populous planet or a higher average income, as I have canon citations for both.
Quote:
I understand that some older DESIGNS are kept in service, but all the older equipment in the US military is updated every once in a while with new technology.
Not to a great extent. The B52s I was on were laden with dated technology, specifics of which I won't get into since I don't know what's authorized for public consumptions. The Iowa-class battleships only dribbled new technology onto 1930s-era engines, hull, and weaponry. A few missile launchers here, a few radars there, and it was a dressed up 1930s-era warship built in the 1940s and kept in service for decades.
Quote:
Beyond that, it is politicians, not the military industrial complex which determines how upgrades are dolled out, which units are grown etc etc. One would imagine that the politics of an Inner Sphere house would be significantly different from that of the United States Congress, and more funding would be devoted to upgrading that equipment more rapidly....
Or Inner Sphere politicians wouldn't. Look at what a small fraction of the Inner Sphere's economy goes into the war effort compared to modern Earth, and even the House leaders bitch and whine about backbreaking expenditures. Modern Earth tolerates a far higher level of military spending than any House. Only the 163rd to 167th nations on the following list begin to approximate House military spending, proportionally.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html
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I understand completely. Would you be able to tell me if Peter Steiner Davion survived or no?
Oh, yeah, I think so. I seem to recall him featuring in later MWDA historical references.
Quote:
Wanna help me grow my alt universe?
I will be happy to critique it and point out plot holes. You might want to start a new thread, though, so this one doesn't get threadjacked further.
For example, what was the causus belli (sp) between the Capellans and FS?
Quote:
One more aside question, if you could: FM:LA states that the First Royal BA regiment was almost 6 months of production. According to TRO:3058U, the only BA in production in the LA is the Fenrir. Am i to assume that a regiment of BA is produced in 6 months, or were there others in production before 3070 which got canceled?
Quite a few Inner Sphere BAs were in production by 3067, and at sharply expanding rates. It'd be reasonable to field regiments of most canon IS BAs in the 3060s.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Toontje
10/28/06 08:34 AM
84.24.178.225
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The casus belli would be Yvonne showing spine, and standing up to her sister thus allowing for new political developments..
Anyway, you can slighlty reduce the income from planets to the House government, as it's a feodal structure meaning a lot of cash remains in minor (planetary) houses. And I'm unsure about the obligations of nobility to pay taxes.
But even at 90% reduction, income is still high enough to maintain the standing army of houses from 1-2 planets. But at least it helps reduce the gap.
Quite possibly, taxes work on the similar feodal structure of 10% tax for ever level. 99% of the population is taxed. Local ruler sends 10% of income to regional ruler. Regional ruler sends 10% to planetary ruler, who sends 10% to government. Thus 0.1 % of GDP is added to the treasury for a single planet, and the rulers live in very pretty houses.
I really to need to read up on canon on this tho, to see references to taxes. What I put up above is straight from the tumb.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Cray
10/28/06 12:57 PM
70.118.43.50
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Quote:
The casus belli would be Yvonne showing spine, and standing up to her sister thus allowing for new political developments..
A causus belli is the direct trigger of a war. If Yvonne and Katherine have a spat, then how does that directly cause a war with the Capellan Confederation?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Toontje
10/29/06 06:19 AM
84.24.178.225
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Hmm ok, that's right. That one would be the indirect cause.
Yvonne shows spine, Katherina pissed due to that, sends covert operations to stir up trouble, and voilá!
Sandoval is less free to invade the DC due to more direct oversight, thus not sapping from the strength of the reserves. With extraction of different units from both realms running smoother due to a common cause, less civil war disturbance, and thus no reduction of the army.
Now in the meantime, K S-(D) consolidates the LA, grabs some planets from the FS near the terran corridor.
Obviously tho, invasion of the CC after XS is a lot more difficult so I do not see how the full subjugation could be achieved with only the resources of the FS at hand. A planet or 2-3, ok, but more takes a drain to pacify. Enough RL examples, like the subjugation of Bretange by the Brittons in the 100-year war, where France completely conquered was impossible to achieve.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Greyslayer
10/29/06 05:49 PM
216.14.198.52
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Quote:
Enough RL examples, like the subjugation of Bretange by the Brittons in the 100-year war, where France completely conquered was impossible to achieve.
Don't let real life interfere with a game though.... Cray already had done enough of that in this thread. I'd prefer 'environmentally consistant' results in a universe rather than skewing results from the past to meet some sort of real life equivalent now. A planet struggling to support a mech battalion of 3025 tech doesn't become one ready to support 3 warships, several mech factories etc... regardless of the dodgey mathematics involved.
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Revanche
10/29/06 08:03 PM
66.171.116.253
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Quote:
why does BT's community, wich seems to be very upset about the development of BT's timeline don't take it in their own hands and start an alternative timeline as a copyleft project?
Are you working on such a project?
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sdog
10/30/06 07:03 AM
139.174.165.124
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Quote:
"... start an alternative timeline as a copyleft project?"
"Are you working on such a project? "
no, i don't.
I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...
- Skaven, ArmA modding community
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Toontje
10/30/06 09:30 AM
131.155.212.213
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Quote:
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Enough RL examples, like the subjugation of Bretange by the Brittons in the 100-year war, where France completely conquered was impossible to achieve.
Don't let real life interfere with a game though.... Cray already had done enough of that in this thread. I'd prefer 'environmentally consistant' results in a universe rather than skewing results from the past to meet some sort of real life equivalent now. A planet struggling to support a mech battalion of 3025 tech doesn't become one ready to support 3 warships, several mech factories etc... regardless of the dodgey mathematics involved.
Well, looks more like the initial math was not done thoroughly. But best way out imo is the approach the monetary base is sufficient, but the tech and manufactoring base isn't (in the 3020s).
Initially the developers must have looked at the rpg ability of the universe they created, and decided it was good. Players dive way too deep in such things, and expect everything to be working right. BT is rather consistent, compared to some other backgrounds; economics may not be right on, but political and military there has been put a lot of tought in.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Greyslayer
10/30/06 05:07 PM
216.14.198.52
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Unlike now where the example of the US is a country owing so much money it isn't funny. Perhaps some fiscal responsibility is needed in the btech universe before allowing people to grow armies on trees?
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Countergod
10/31/06 03:46 AM
128.211.247.175
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sorry bout the delay... this damn pesky thing called a "real life" keeps getting in the way of doing important things >.>
Ill go start a new thread named "For Cray"
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman |
Cray
11/01/06 08:36 AM
147.160.136.10
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Don't let real life interfere with a game though.... Cray already had done enough of that in this thread. I'd prefer 'environmentally consistant' results in a universe rather than skewing results from the past to meet some sort of real life equivalent now.
Then you missed my point. I'll try to clarify.
I'm not trying to give every planet 100 regiments of mechs. I'm trying to point out that there's a disconnect between the population/economy of BT and the size of militaries. I'm trying to do that because every now and then, someone thinks a mech regiment or warship (or 100 of each) is incredibly expensive. They're not expensive in BT. Expense is not the reason they're so rare.
I can't find a good, realistic reason in-universe they should be rare, but that doesn't stop my enjoyment of the game and, apparently, it doesn't bother you either.
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Initially the developers must have looked at the rpg ability of the universe they created, and decided it was good. Players dive way too deep in such things, and expect everything to be working right. BT is rather consistent, compared to some other backgrounds; economics may not be right on, but political and military there has been put a lot of tought in.
Exactly. And what a fun setting it is.
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Unlike now where the example of the US is a country owing so much money it isn't funny.
On an absolute scale, yes, the US owes a lot. On a relative scale, it owes 64.7% of its annual GDP. Italy owes 108.8%, Frances owes 66.2%, Germany 67.3%, Britain 46%, and even the famous bankers in Switzerland owe 52%. (Though the phrase, "If your friends all jumped off a bridge..." comes to mind.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
11/01/06 06:12 PM
216.14.198.52
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They're not expensive in BT. Expense is not the reason they're so rare.
I can't find a good, realistic reason in-universe they should be rare, but that doesn't stop my enjoyment of the game and, apparently, it doesn't bother you either.
Rare metals in the production of fusion engines was part of the problem apparently. This though should have made the units even more expensive than say their ICE counterparts. Earth and the older planets had very limited access to these minerals. Places like the Outworld Alliance are the only locations which I knew that had reasonable deposits of such metals involved in the production of Fusion Engines, but then again I haven't covered the old literature for some time. Clan space was poor in general as far as minerals and metals are concerned so how they got their wasteful society of war up and running would be an interesting argument in fiction.
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Cray
11/01/06 09:46 PM
68.200.109.191
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Rare metals in the production of fusion engines was part of the problem apparently. This though should have made the units even more expensive than say their ICE counterparts. Earth and the older planets had very limited access to these minerals. Places like the Outworld Alliance are the only locations which I knew that had reasonable deposits of such metals involved in the production of Fusion Engines, but then again I haven't covered the old literature for some time.
Sure, some production bottleneck'll work.
It's a shame humanity dropped asteroid mining (for the most part) as soon as they got the KF drive. Even the rarest metals, the platinum group, are abundant in asteroids. I guess that explains why the early history sections of the House SBs indicate the Terran Alliance's fusion engines advanced so rapidly thanks to asteroid mining.
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Clan space was poor in general as far as minerals and metals are concerned so how they got their wasteful society of war up and running would be an interesting argument in fiction.
The Clans are easy, since they have a realistic ratio between population/economy and military sizes. Their inefficiency is what puts the brakes on their advanced, 28th-Century industrial technology - if the Clans used their technology in a remotely intelligent way, they'd be much better off and the Inner Sphere in much deeper shit. Even the resource bottleneck only works because the Clans are, for the most part, too collectively dumb to explore and settle richer worlds. They've only got several million uninhabited star systems around them in a radius equal to their distance from the Inner Sphere.
The problem explanation is the Inner Sphere. They have much more intelligent economies and use their technology better than the Clans.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
11/02/06 05:54 PM
216.14.198.52
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The problem explanation is the Inner Sphere. They have much more intelligent economies and use their technology better than the Clans.
ROM.... which only got worse after 3025.
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Cray
11/03/06 08:38 AM
147.160.136.10
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The problem explanation is the Inner Sphere. They have much more intelligent economies and use their technology better than the Clans.
ROM.... which only got worse after 3025.
ROM works for a short while. It takes some suspension of disbelief for an intelligence agency to work so perfectly for centuries at destroying national defense/security-related projects in five big nations, with several of the victims noted for for highly effective intel agencies of their own.
That long, low-key warfare period of the Third Succession War should've been marked by substantial reconstruction, and even without reconstruction, it's hard to find a good explanation for the microscopic militaries. Most planets were at the 21st Century technology level, with plenty of them at the 23rd Century level. You don't need battlemechs and fusion engines to build a capable military.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
11/03/06 05:29 PM
216.14.198.52
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Which I had noted with the mention of ICE engines. I have done well in tourneys with a low-tech approach in the past and a mech battalion against a ICE tank division would hardly be fair for the battalion .
Reading much of the earlier Comstar books though they do take alot of the credit for the problems since the exodus and played on the Houses willingness to believe these aspects in other Houses.
Personally I too find it a rather far-fetched situation to have, but it doesn't excuse the 180o move currently. Nor the then move to retore the original view for MWDA?
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