Atlan
03/01/09 06:05 AM
123.255.60.21
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We all know that the main reason we see so few LAM's in later Battletech (Espeically the Phoenix Hawk) is because the creators of Battletech stole them from the japanese anime Macross (sometimes known as robotech), and they got in trouble from the japanese who wanted their designs back.
Just today I was watching Macross, and I recognied a Marauder! I looked a little harder, and noticed other mechs- Locust, Rifleman, Warhammer.
I looked around, and found that all of the following were taken from anime:
Archer
Warhammer
Rifleman
Crossbow
Crusader
Wasp
Stinger
Phoenix Hawk
Locust
Marauder
Shadow Hawk
Thunderbolt
Wolverine
Griffin
Battlemaster
Why does the Phoenix Hawk count as copyright infringement, but none of the others?
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Frabby
03/01/09 04:58 PM
87.164.235.203
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I am not aware of the Phoenix Hawk being treated any differently than the others. Its original artwork is "unseen" just like all the others you mentioned (and a few more):
While it is correct that there were copyright issues, "stolen" is simply not the right word. FASA did obtain rights to the pictures of those designs, or so they thought. They only learned much later that the party who had licensed the artwork to FASA apparently did themselves not have the appropriate rights, and accordingly could not pass those rights on to FASA.
There was a lawsuit which was settled out of court. As a result of the settlement, FASA agreed not to use the contested pictures anymore in the future; hence they became known as the "Unseen". Check out the article on Unseen on the wiki part of this site for details.
This also means that it was never actually cleared up wether or not there had been a copyright infringement on behalf of FASA. The parties agreed on the aforementioned solution by which the BattleTech property owners would refrain from using the pictures in the future. And they have diligently adhered to that agreement.
The names and configurations of the 'Mechs were invented by FASA, however, and so the 'Mechs themselves continue to exist in the BattleTech universe - just no pictures of them are allowed in official publications. New pictures for upgraded variants of those same 'Mechs were since published in Project:Phoenix to somewhat alleviate the problem.
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Christopher_Perkins
03/01/09 10:04 PM
24.127.68.31
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All of the ARTWORK referenced on http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen was abandoned by FASA when FASA's Lawsuit against Playmates for the use of th Timberwolf/MadCat was Checkmated by PlayMates and Harmony Golds counter suit against FASA for the use of the Macross Mecha as a result from the undisclosed settlement of both cases.
The Abandonment of the Phonix Hawk LAM, Stinger LAM, and the Wasp LAM -Designs- were more because of Choice than force, Notice how when the crew stopped taking the stupid pills that lead to TR3025R, TR3050R, and TR3055R they did TR Project Phoenix {Dump the illegally used Artwork and replace it}... which used the Latest iteration of the Scorpion to confirm that the Land Air Mech was dead, dead, dead in 3067 ...
While the PHX LAM, WSP LAM, and the STG LAM are going to be brought back into the Game in either Interstellar Operations (new PTB Rumor) or Historicals: Liberation of Terra (Old PTB Rumor) do not make the mistake of thinking that the PTB like LAMs (new Factories are easy to build in the BT universe when you control the Red Pen of Fiat...)
they are fixing the rules for play between 2680 and 3054 (when the pre-existing Canon had them functional) .. but that is the extent of it.... while I would love to see the PTB reverse reverse the change that ended the LAM in the game in 3054 I am not holding my breath.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Edited by Christopher_Perkins (03/01/09 10:04 PM)
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Lefric
03/02/09 08:16 AM
216.120.184.66
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Why all the love for LAMS around here? I don't understand it. LAMS are for anime. Battletech is not anime.
Flame me if you wish, but LAMS are.... silly. They don't fit into the universe _AT ALL_, at least how it's deeloped in the 15 years I've been playing battletech. OK, admittidly, I got into the game in 93 or 94, and TRO 3055 was already out, so LAMS had already gone away. But even so: THEY ARE SILLY!
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm." -George Orwell
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Zandel_Corrin
03/02/09 06:28 PM
123.2.140.247
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It's only newtype that likes lams.... we all think they suck as well.... they don't fit the setting at all.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Newtype
03/02/09 06:39 PM
207.160.205.13
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It's not myself that just likes LAMs. As I've said before there are many websites that talk about LAMs and LAM rules. Don't believe me, then do a Google search for Land Air Mechs. Here, let me save you the trouble:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Land+Air+Mechs&aq=f&oq=
Edited by Newtype (03/02/09 06:40 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
03/02/09 06:40 PM
123.2.140.247
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Your the only one here that does.... and on most other Btech forums.....
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Frabby
03/02/09 07:24 PM
87.164.230.205
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Personally, I am indifferent to LAMs.
But this threat is not about LAMs.
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Lefric
03/03/09 08:57 AM
216.120.184.66
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Umm, since the unseen are *very* old news, what is this "threat" you are speking of? In fact, I wonder how anyone posting on this board can not know about the unseen issue; it's not like this is a site for b-tech newbies.
So, based upon your tone, I must hypothosize that Atlan is a another Newtype clone. Sigh.
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm." -George Orwell
Edited by Lefric (03/03/09 08:58 AM)
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Lafeel
03/03/09 09:18 AM
157.157.29.92
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Quote:
We all know that the main reason we see so few LAM's in later Battletech (Espeically the Phoenix Hawk) is because the creators of Battletech stole them from the japanese anime Macross (sometimes known as robotech), and they got in trouble from the japanese who wanted their designs back.
Just today I was watching Macross, and I recognied a Marauder! I looked a little harder, and noticed other mechs- Locust, Rifleman, Warhammer.
I looked around, and found that all of the following were taken from anime:
Archer
Warhammer
Rifleman
Crossbow
Crusader
Wasp
Stinger
Phoenix Hawk
Locust
Marauder
Shadow Hawk
Thunderbolt
Wolverine
Griffin
Battlemaster
Why does the Phoenix Hawk count as copyright infringement, but none of the others?
All of them are, and were. That's why they are now Unseen in case you didn't know, FASA lost a lawsuit over the issue and Fanpro, and later Catalyst, chose not to press the situation further.
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/04/09 09:38 PM
205.202.120.139
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Why did we derail to Land-ass-mechs when we were talking about the Unseen?
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Lafeel
03/05/09 07:58 AM
157.157.29.92
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Because the P-hawk LAM is one of them, albeit a one that's been all but written out of the game.
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Fang
03/06/09 08:34 AM
12.54.128.7
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It was my understanding that pretty much all the mechs that came with the original boxed set and the little poster board cutouts are now considered unseen. I started back right before TRO3050 came out. And I thought it was Harmony Gold that purchased the rights to the images, then found out the person they bought from did not have the rights themselves. Unless there has been a change, Japanese copyright laws are vastly different than US. So it is possible Battletech could still use the originally published images in Japan, but not in the US. I could be wrong, it's happened before. Either way, I still prefer the unseen pics to the newer upgraded versions. And as far as LAM's go. I like them. As a curiousity in the CBT universe. More as a historical sidenote and not as a mainstream unit. To maintain a unit like a LAM is more cost and trouble than it's worth in today's battletech, so I am willing to bet most units would not field them anyway. But as this thread is NOT about LAM's(too many of those threads around anyway), who cares.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/06/09 01:16 PM
205.202.120.139
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You know...I actually like the Reseen. I guess thats just what comes from my name, however 
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Christopher_Perkins
03/07/09 11:24 PM
24.127.68.31
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Quote:
Why all the love for LAMS around here? I don't understand it. LAMS are for anime. Battletech is not anime.
Umm, where exactly did the idea of Big Robots that are piloted By people sitting in the head or torso come from?
It bloody well sure wasnt Western Cartoons or Movies.
BattleTech came from the Same Anime that the Land Air Mechs Came from...
The 2nd Lines units from SDF Macross were Non-Transformable Mecha called Destroids (in the bastardized "Robotech") and it is from these that the designers of BattleDroids and BattleTech got their ideas...
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Edited by Christopher_Perkins (03/08/09 06:05 PM)
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Christopher_Perkins
03/08/09 12:03 AM
24.127.68.31
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Quote:
It was my understanding that pretty much all the mechs that came with the original boxed set and the little poster board cutouts are now considered unseen.
only the ones listed on the bt wiki
Quote:
I started back right before TRO3050 came out.
I believe that i started right after the publication of TR3026, and before the publication of Wolves on the Border and the Warrior Trilogy.
Quote:
And I thought it was Harmony Gold that purchased the rights to the images, then found out the person they bought from did not have the rights themselves.
not quite
Studio nue created SDF Macross, Big West helped them with production issues and was granted territorial merchandizing rights, Tatsunoco helped with Manpower Issues and was granted Extra-Teritorial mrchandizing Rights, rather, the right to gain compensation for allowing Non-Japenease entities to use the SDF Macross intelectual Property
Tatsunoco liscenced Harmony Gold to market the SDF Macross property in english, which they instead chose to deform into RoboTech: Macross Saga and build a totally different universe around it and SDF Southern Cross (Robotech Southern Cross) and Mosepeda (RoboTech: Next Generation) (They proceed to act as if they could prevent other entities from using the IP in the US... at the Time of the FASA-PlayMates-Harmony Gold Suite that was the Gov understanding as well, so FASA got Screwed... when HG recently tried to keep Japanease SDF Macross toys out of the US as infringing on THEIR ip... HG got spanked a decade or two too late to save FASA...)
Tatsunoco Liscenced the Model Company 21st Century Imports to create models in the image of the SDF Macross Intellectual Property
FASA got the right to Relable some of these Models from 21st Century Imports as BattleTech (that was actually what they had... not the rights to use said images in their own universe)
Quote:
So it is possible Battletech could still use the originally published images in Japan, but not in the US.
the Japanease version of BattleTech used the same/similar Artwork that was used in the Solaris VII Boxed Set.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/08/09 09:49 PM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
Quote:
Why all the love for LAMS around here? I don't understand it. LAMS are for anime. Battletech is not anime.
Umm, where exactly did the idea of Big Robots that are piloted By people sitting in the head or torso come from?
It bloody well sure wasnt Western Cartoons or Movies.
TRY THAT AGAIN! All of the giant robot stuff came from the west. Historically the Japaneses are not that creative, they take ideas from others and copy them. First they copied the Chines then when the west arrived to Japan they copied some of the western culture, as the 19th century was coming to a close they increased the amount they where coping from the west. The same is true with there anime. They took what was in the states and went where we would not go. If you go back to the 1920 and after you will find a lot of giant robots in SciFi short stories. It was introduced to the Japanese after the USA won WW ll and took full control of everything that happened in Japan, including there culture. The US introduced baseball and SciFi and other things to Japan.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Christopher_Perkins
03/09/09 01:04 AM
24.127.68.31
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so, donkey, you pretty much backed up what I said...
"They took what was in the states" (i.e. Sci-Fi short stories) "and went where we would not go" (i.e. Anime)
But it is much more likely that the inspiration for BattleTech was from Anime (Specificly SDF Macross) and not Sci-FI short stories that were probably out of circulation at the time, if not that, the major draw that created the Niche that BattleTech Filled.
Any way, the answer lies in the Schrapnel article about the origins...
That is i do not recall mention of Analog in the article... but ISTR that Anime was definately mentioned
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Fang
03/09/09 10:56 AM
12.54.128.7
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Solaris VII original boxed set used four of the Japanese images for their mechs that I know of. Of course, I have only seen about a dozen or so japanese battlemech images so the others could be as well. as far as I remember: Tsumani is the japanese stinger, Morphis(or whatever it is called) is the wasp, Koto is the Locust, and the Colossus is the japanese 75t Marauder.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/11/09 03:33 AM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
so, donkey, you pretty much backed up what I said...
You said nothing of the kind, quote
Quote:
Umm, where exactly did the idea of Big Robots that are piloted By people sitting in the head or torso come from?
It bloody well sure wasnt Western Cartoons or Movies.
unquote. Don't be a newtype admit that you where not correct.
Quote:
"They took what was in the states" (i.e. Sci-Fi short stories) "and went where we would not go" (i.e. Anime)
Anime is just the word animation shortened. Animation in this content is cartoons. Cartoons has been around for centuries. The first known cartoons where from the 16th century in Europe.
Quote:
But it is much more likely that the inspiration for BattleTech was from Anime (Specificly SDF Macross) and not Sci-FI short stories that were probably out of circulation at the time, if not that, the major draw that created the Niche that BattleTech Filled.
I would not question that BT is a ripoff/copy from Macross.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Lafeel
03/11/09 09:48 PM
157.157.29.92
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Not just Macross it borrowed from a few other animes..But the background isn't a one I've seen in anime as far as I can recall.
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Christopher_Perkins
03/12/09 12:14 AM
24.127.68.31
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Umm, where exactly did the idea of Big Robots that are piloted By people sitting in the head or torso come from?
It bloody well sure wasnt Western Cartoons or Movies.
unquote. Don't be a newtype admit that you where not correct.
I will when I am not correct
Quote:
Jordan K. Weismman
The BattleTech Game, supplements, scenarios, and other fictional products are all offshooots of an idea that came to me in 1984, when my own imagination was captured by the strong images that the Japenease had created for their Animated Television series featuring huge, waking battlemachines. Though the graphics for these man-like and insect-like monoliths were fantastic, the Japenease storylines still left my western mind unsatisfied. And so i set off to create my own fictional universe where men used fearsome, 10 or 12 meter tall monsters of destruction called BattleMechs to carry thei endless struggles for domination across the stars..
p.6 Schrapnel (c)1988
how would you like the crow Served?...
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
03/12/09 11:21 PM
24.127.68.31
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Quote:
Umm, where exactly did the idea of Big Robots that are piloted By people sitting in the head or torso come from?
It bloody well sure wasnt Western Cartoons or Movies.
unquote. Don't be a newtype admit that you where not correct.
Quote:
"They took what was in the states" (i.e. Sci-Fi short stories) "and went where we would not go" (i.e. Anime)
Anime is just the word animation shortened. Animation in this content is cartoons. Cartoons has been around for centuries. The first known cartoons where from the 16th century in Europe.
my point stands.
western Short Stories and novels with piloted robots are NOT western Cartoons and Movies with piloted robots,
"It bloody well sure wasnt Western Cartoons or Movies."
the japanease were the ones that created Anime with piloted robots before the West did Cartoons & Movies with piloted robots...
And JKW was inspired by Japanease Anime featuring piloted robots.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/13/09 03:29 AM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
Quote:
Umm, where exactly did the idea of Big Robots that are piloted By people sitting in the head or torso come from?
It bloody well sure wasnt Western Cartoons or Movies.
unquote. Don't be a newtype admit that you where not correct.
Quote:
"They took what was in the states" (i.e. Sci-Fi short stories) "and went where we would not go" (i.e. Anime)
Anime is just the word animation shortened. Animation in this content is cartoons. Cartoons has been around for centuries. The first known cartoons where from the 16th century in Europe.
my point stands.
western Short Stories and novels with piloted robots are NOT western Cartoons and Movies with piloted robots,
"It bloody well sure wasnt Western Cartoons or Movies."
the japanease were the ones that created Anime with piloted robots before the West did Cartoons & Movies with piloted robots...
And JKW was inspired by Japanease Anime featuring piloted robots.
Believe what ever you want. I'm not about to go go through all of the trouble of searching for and reading hundred year old stories to prove you wrong. It is not worth the hundreds to to possibly tens of thousands of man hours that it would require.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/13/09 05:03 PM
205.202.120.139
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Dude, donkey, just admit that you were wrong.
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Christopher_Perkins
03/13/09 08:29 PM
24.127.68.31
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Quote:
Believe what ever you want. I'm not about to go go through all of the trouble of searching for and reading hundred year old stories to prove you wrong. It is not worth the hundreds to to possibly tens of thousands of man hours that it would require.
1: I said "It Blooody Well Wasn't Western Cartoons and Movies"
You are Citing Western Short Stories and Novels.
Thus While you may have a point about the Japanease having POSSIBLY borrowed the Idea of Giant Humanoid & Insectoid Machines that are piloted from inside the Head and Torso Area of the Machine from Western Short Stories & Novels, The Idea did not come from Western Television and Movies until well after BattleTech was out... Unless you try to say that the Adaption of the SDF Macross Anime by Harmony Gold into RoboTech Qualifies as "Western TV"
And the idea for BATTLETECH Came DIRECTLY from Anime...
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Edited by Christopher_Perkins (03/13/09 08:35 PM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/13/09 09:53 PM
24.5.141.133
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Where the hell do you think movies come from, Books! If you look at most movies you will see in the credits that it says that it was adapted for such and such book. Very little that you see on the big screen and more times than you think the small screen is a new concept. Movies like Star Wars are extremely rare, where the movie was out before the book. I do like that the Pirates Of The Caribbean came from a type of roller coaster, talk about coming out of left field! There is one thing that I would suggest, see the movie before reading the book. If you read the book first you will think the movie is crap.
Christopher_Perkins I have a question for you. First, do you read books or novels? Secant, if you do read, how big is your personal library? As for my self, my personal library has almost a thousand books in it, and I am not taking about comic books. Also, I have read all of the books that I do have a lot more times than just once. Though I am not a good writer, I have a better chance winning a lottery than selling a story, I have written a couple short stories, with some more in the proses of being written.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/15/09 12:21 AM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
Where the hell do you think movies come from, Books! If you look at most movies you will see in the credits that it says that it was adapted for such and such book. Very little that you see on the big screen and more times than you think the small screen is a new concept. Movies like Star Wars are extremely rare, where the movie was out before the book. I do like that the Pirates Of The Caribbean came from a type of roller coaster, talk about coming out of left field! There is one thing that I would suggest, see the movie before reading the book. If you read the book first you will think the movie is crap.
Christopher_Perkins I have a question for you. First, do you read books or novels? Secant, if you do read, how big is your personal library? As for my self, my personal library has almost a thousand books in it, and I am not taking about comic books. Also, I have read all of the books that I do have a lot more times than just once. Though I am not a good writer, I have a better chance winning a lottery than selling a story, I have written a couple short stories, with some more in the proses of being written.
SCREENSHOTS or it DIDN'T HAPPEN.
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Lefric
03/16/09 11:06 AM
216.120.184.66
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Why do you need screenshots? My own library is over 1000 books as well.
The petty vindictiveness in this topic is getting old and annoying. Chill out, folks.
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm." -George Orwell
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/16/09 02:02 PM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
Why do you need screenshots? My own library is over 1000 books as well.
It's a 4chan meme; since trolls would say "I have xxx number of things" just to freak people out, we would ask for screenshots to sift though. Guys like Metplatt are found that way, when they talk about hordes of guns and reveal they actually have a massive collection. Here, I asked for an image so EVERYONE WOULD CHILL THE FUCK OUT.
Quote:
The petty vindictiveness in this topic is getting old and annoying. Chill out, folks.
As above, seconded.
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