His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/26/09 05:39 PM
24.5.141.133
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Keeping things apples to apples. We will use only IS stats.
UAC20
tons 15
heat 10
long range 12
5 shots per ton
ML
ton 1
heat 3
long range 9
no ammo
Going with DHS *assuming that at double rate that the heat for the UAC is 20*
UAC20 with 5 tons ammo
Tons 20
No extra HS
= 20 tons
MLs 12
extra DHS 8
= 20 tons
Keeping the two battle mech equal in everything else.
Lets use the gunners skill at 4+
If the UAC20 mech kept out of range of the MLs and assuming that both mechs are running at say 6.
The UAC20 mech would have a to hit of 12. (GS 4+, Running +2, Range +4, Target moving 5-6 hexes +2) Since he has a 1 in 36 chance of hitting and only 25 shots I would not give you much of a chance.
Every time I got into firing range I would have a 1 in 3 chance of hitting with one of my MLs
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Lets bring things in. (GS 4+, (UAC20 range M +2, MLs Long range +4), Walking +1, Target moving 3-4 hexes +1)
The UAC20 would have a 8+ TH, or a 41.666% chance of hitting with his one shot. A little chancy for going with double rate.
The MLs would have a 10+ TH or has a 16.666% X12 chance of hitting with his MLs. That comes down to having a 91% chance of hitting with at least one of the MLs.
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Lets make things close and dirty. (GS 4+, Walking +1,)
UAC20 would have a 83.333% chance of hitting, That would be very good with double rate. You have a 34.722% chance of hitting with both shots.
MLs same to hit. There would be a very good chance of 10 of the MLs hitting.
So you would have a 35% chance doing 20 points of damage to to armor locations. where I would most likely do 5 points to 10 locations every turn. On a 75 ton mech they can take two AC20 hits in any torso location with out destroying all of the internal structure points. Doing 50 points of damage each turn I would destroy every point of armor and every point of IS in 7 turns. Going by the numbers in 6 turns you would have about 7 hits of your 20 points. Unless you hit a leg twice or a torso three times I would have beaten you. You are betting way to much on luck, and Luck is a nasty Mistress.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Flameblade
05/27/09 04:50 PM
64.47.95.206
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Where do I begin?
Well Since I have limited time here at work I must apologize in advance I might have to post a couple of times to get everything in.
Rule#1 Never ever let your opponent pick your mech. Unless you like piloting Urban Mechs.
Note #1: There is no such thing as apples to apples on the battlefield.
Donkey,
In the other thread that spawned this one you were quite adamant about your ML mech trouncing my UAC20 Mech. You also brought the Clans into it by condeming the hunchback IIC. I have yet to see your response to my proposed mech. I will repost some of the data here. Clan 55 tons. Movement 6/9/6 MASC 12. carries a UAC/20 with 3 tons of ammo and 2 ERML. XL engine and Endo steel. L3 technologies is laser reflective armor. Of course the clans field a slightly better pilot but I would abide by Zellbringen and refuse to make physical attacks. The BV for the clanner is a just under 2000. I wonder what it is the LV you designed? Probably much higher.
Tactics would be to use surperior mobility to stay out of ML range and use single shot AC or ERML depending on to-hit numbers. Follow this up with a quick burst of speed to close and get into the rear arc. My faster Mech would be able to stay there while chewing through the paper thin rear armor. While you plink away with ONE ERLL for half damage.
Now a couple of items on the challange posted above.
1st is that not every Mech on the battlefield will be 75 tonner moving at 5/8/5. keeping everything else on the Mech the same truly limits what the AC20 is about.
So the build of a 75tonner 5/8/5 with a IS XL engine and 14.5 tons of armor. This leaves both builds with 1.5 tons left over and overheating by movement. the ML build has a mere 15 critical slot left open after this. Placing endo steel would bring it up to 5 free tons but with only 1 crit slot left to use it. The AC build has a total of 21 free slots enable me to place the endo steel onto the mech and have 7 free slots to use it up. Advantage AC. With 5 tons I could easly place a SRM-6 and 1 ton of ammo to take advantage of the big holes punched by the AC. The extra ton would go for DHS which could be placed in engine. OR i could mount an ERLL and have a long range weapon instead of limiting myself to 12 hexes or less. OR I could mount the 4 ML and a DHS for crit finding once a hole has been opened by the AC and crazy high to hit numbers.
Finally in a pure ML vs AC mech builds the AC superior range would lead me to believe the AC does not need the speed to close the range the ML boat needs that. I would drop the AC speed to 4/6/4 giving the AC boat another 12 tons to play with. and still have room for 3 DHS in the engine before having to place them. Dropping the speed of the ML boat would mean pushing DHS out and into the already limited crit space. Further limiting the additional equipment it could carry.
Overall though I would prefer a light weight mech carrying a bit less ammo. It would be used to as a hunter/killer for light mechs or as flanker to the assualts to kill thier weak rear armor. For I.S. You could place a UAC20 3 tons ammo on a 50 ton 7/11 mech with endo steel and 8.5T Ferro Armor. OR a 40 Ton 6/9 Mech with 4 tons of ammo 7 tons of Ferro. I would like to see the build of the 12 ML on a 40 ton 6/9 chasis using only L2 equipment. You would not be able to fit both endo and ferro on there so you would have to begin booting off ML/DHS or deal with having paper thin armor.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/27/09 08:20 PM
24.5.141.133
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You are firing in the opposite direction and totally missed the point.
I was not comparing two mech designs will other weapons. I was just comparing your UAC20 with an equal weight of MLs and heat sinks.
If you want to play it your way. I would use a Clan ERPPC with a TC on a 25 ton mech firing at long range. I would never give you a chance to fire back.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Zandel_Corrin
05/27/09 08:40 PM
123.2.140.247
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I think donkey you also miss a big point.... what about city fighting? or hills / woods? or any other area where that UAC20 has a VERY good chance of suddenly finding you at point black range and shooting b4 you can or when your unable?
UAC20 is SCARY at point blank..... and that's in the front ark..... from behind *shudder* it's deadly to ANYTHING even 100 tonners.
use the weapons for what they were designed for and they are both good.... MLs beat UAC in open terrain or on good manuvering mechs.... UAC beats MLs in city / mountains fighting when you don't get a range choice..
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Flameblade
05/27/09 08:59 PM
98.67.103.39
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You missed my point as well. the big drawback of the ML build (assuming the standard 10 DHS in engine) means the ML combo uses a whopping 36 crit slots vs the AC20's 15 crit slots. Using this amount of space results in not being able to use other equipment on large mechs and not being able to utilize weight saving Endo/Ferro on lighter mechs.
Going your way would mean we would need an omni with 20 tons of pod space available. For the AC you only need 15 open crit slots. For the ML you need 36 open crit slots.
As for my way I prefer the fire falcon twin ERLL and a targ. .
Again you presented a 75ton L3 with the challange of paraphrase "I pwnz your mech" I responded. For some reason you have abandoned the 75 Tonner. Fair enough. (BTW the fire falcon is what you where looking for twin ERLL and a targ).
I am not claiming the AC is better nor am i claiming the ML rules. I am simply stating that not all the information is being presented. weapons are mounted on mechs/vechicles. The face other mechs and vechicles on the field of battle.
So the advantages of the ML are more damage, no ammo, better chance of finding crit once armor is penetrated.
Advantages of the AC are single hit kills, better armor penetration power, 33% better range, less than HALF the required crit locations.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/27/09 09:42 PM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
I think donkey you also miss a big point.... what about city fighting? or hills / woods? or any other area where that UAC20 has a VERY good chance of suddenly finding you at point black range and shooting b4 you can or when your unable?
UAC20 is SCARY at point blank..... and that's in the front ark..... from behind *shudder* it's deadly to ANYTHING even 100 tonners.
use the weapons for what they were designed for and they are both good.... MLs beat UAC in open terrain or on good manuvering mechs.... UAC beats MLs in city / mountains fighting when you don't get a range choice..
So 12 MLs are not dangerous in the conditions that you mentioned? Yes IF the UAC20 hit and IF it penetrates the armor it can be bad, but so can 12 MLs. Just because one ML only does 5 point of damage that does not mean that 12 are not going to give you a very bad day. I don't see why city or mountain fighting would be any different than any other fighting.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Zandel_Corrin
05/27/09 09:53 PM
123.2.140.247
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because at point blank range the chances of the UAC hitting (or AC 20) is basically a certainty and when that's the case your in for a bad day... from behind... your as good as dead....
Those MLs are bad too but with 12 rolls about 2 will miss at least.... statistically and even then 50 damage is bad but not spread out over the whole mech..... trust me stats wise the MLs are the best option but in actual combat the AC20 (Vanilla, LB-X or UAC) is far more dangerous.
I'm talking from game experience here not just stats... hell i like the ML heavy design myself... I'm an energy man all the way but the facts are the facts and the fact is that in that kind of fighting.... AC20s are king....
And if you use double blind rules (as all games should for realism and intense fights) then they are more then king.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Prince_of_Darkness
05/27/09 10:00 PM
205.202.120.216
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/27/09 10:44 PM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
because at point blank range the chances of the UAC hitting (or AC 20) is basically a certainty and when that's the case your in for a bad day... from behind... your as good as dead....
Those MLs are bad too but with 12 rolls about 2 will miss at least.... statistically and even then 50 damage is bad but not spread out over the whole mech..... trust me stats wise the MLs are the best option but in actual combat the AC20 (Vanilla, LB-X or UAC) is far more dangerous.
I'm talking from game experience here not just stats... hell i like the ML heavy design myself... I'm an energy man all the way but the facts are the facts and the fact is that in that kind of fighting.... AC20s are king....
And if you use double blind rules (as all games should for realism and intense fights) then they are more then king.
Yes most likely 2 will miss but also there is a chance that the UAC will miss also. With the likely hood of hitting the torso most of the lasers that hit will hit the back armor and will penetrate with a couple of hits. With untouched rear armor the only thing that would be destroyed with one hit is a mech being hit in the center torso that is 45 tons or lighter.
The problem with woods is you and the enemy could walk right past each other and never know it. From what your saying when your playing a campaign in woods or other restricted visibility the enemy always knows exactly where the players mechs are with no reason, and can attack the players in the back every time. To be able to track an enemy force in a large wooded area you would have at least a regiment of infantry very thinly spread out. During WWII the Battle of the Bulge, an entire army hid in heavy woods with out ever being detected until they attacked. Two enemy lances have almost no chance of finding each other until someone starts firing weapons that make noise and everyone follows the noise.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/27/09 10:46 PM
24.5.141.133
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That's so cute I had to save it
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Zandel_Corrin
05/27/09 11:16 PM
123.2.140.247
|
Quote:
The problem with woods is you and the enemy could walk right past each other and never know it. From what your saying when your playing a campaign in woods or other restricted visibility the enemy always knows exactly where the players mechs are with no reason, and can attack the players in the back every time. To be able to track an enemy force in a large wooded area you would have at least a regiment of infantry very thinly spread out. During WWII the Battle of the Bulge, an entire army hid in heavy woods with out ever being detected until they attacked. Two enemy lances have almost no chance of finding each other until someone starts firing weapons that make noise and everyone follows the noise.
When did i say that? I'm saying that is double blind rules when / if you do come into contact in a woods / hills / city environment then it will most likely be at close to point blank range.
Quote:
Yes most likely 2 will miss but also there is a chance that the UAC will miss also. With the likely hood of hitting the torso most of the lasers that hit will hit the back armor and will penetrate with a couple of hits. With untouched rear armor the only thing that would be destroyed with one hit is a mech being hit in the center torso that is 45 tons or lighter.
Yes and no.
Yes the AC does have a that same small chance to miss but it's minor while your MLs have a greater chance to miss with at least half... the more you fire the higher the chance that you'll miss with some....
That reduces the damage... also there is a greater chance that that damage will strike all over the mech... with an AC it matters little where you hit cause the damage is massive.
No your wrong about that back armour statement many mechs 50tons + have under 20 points of armour on there rear torsos.... center that is sides are even less... while they might not be destroyed by IS damage they will most likely suffer crits to engines or other problem areas.....
Also i said nothing about only one hit... UAC could hit twice.... high chance of two rear torso hits stripping the armour and critting a bad spot.... and if they strike the same torso..... OUCH.
My point is that in it's specialty area the UAC and other AC 20s are king.... no question... end of story.
Still i must admit that the IS ML is one of if not THE best all round (long range excluded) weapon.... not good as a main weap even with loads of them... the specialty main guns are better but as backup to those big guns they are great....
Just think.... UAC punches through armour while backup MLs crit seek and sand armour from other locations.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/28/09 08:58 AM
24.5.141.133
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When I implied that any mech 50 tons or over can survive a AC20 hit I was counting the armor and IS. Yes you might get crits but with one surviving IS the mech is not out of the fight. As for both shots hitting the same place that is quite unlikely. First there is only a 42% chance that the second shot will hit at all. Then there is at best a 5% chance that both shots will hit the center torso hit location, even less with other hit locations.
Quote:
My point is that in it's specialty area the UAC and other AC 20s are king.... no question... end of story.
At putting a 20 hit shot in one hit location yes, no other weapon can do that, so of coarse it king. When you make the conditions narrow enough you can claim anything is king. I don't see that one massive hit is worth the extensive cost in weight and crit slots. If I wanted to use that amount of weight for one weapon I would get the GR. Yes it does 3/4 of the damage but at double the range.
On my mechs for short range weapons, I use the ML on IS mechs and the PML on clan mechs. Rarely do I use anything else. The amount of damage is so efficient to the weight and heat that I don't see the reason to use anything else, and with DHS even more so.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Prince_of_Darkness
05/28/09 11:10 AM
205.202.120.216
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In the argument for heavy autocannons, one thing neither of you have realized is the "push" factor of the guns. See, nobody want to get hit by a heavy AC, so most will want to stay out of the maximum range of those guns just to protect themselves.
See what I'm getting at? Since nobody wants to risk getting within 9 hexes, you can use the guns as "push" weapons, forcing your opponent to move away from something under the fear of getting hit by that shell- that alone makes the AC/20 and it's variants more valuable in the long run- banks of Medium lasers don't have that aura.
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Flameblade
05/28/09 03:44 PM
64.47.95.206
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Lets take a look at something donkey has said. Not every hit from a AC goes to a torso.
The non torso locations are head, arm and leg. I will assume max armor for the location.
Head: For the AC means win. For ML the 1st hit means a 3+ roll the second is dangerous (possible crit) and at the 3rd it is finally game over.
Arms: 35 Ton Mech: For the AC total destruction. 2 points transfer to torso. For the ML the Mech can withstand 2 hits with no real damage 3rd hit penetrates the armor. 4th hit destroys arm and 2 points transfer.
55 Ton Mech For the AC 1st hit penetrates the armor and 2nd hit destroys the arm and 13 points transfer to the torso (which would only have 3~5 points left in torso armor) For the ML the mech can withstand 3 hits with no real damage 4th hit penetrates the armor and the 6th hit destroys and 3 points transfer. (13~15 points left in torso armor)
75 ton Mech For the AC 1st hit penetrates the armor 2nd hit destroys the arm and 4 points transfer. (torso would have 21~24 points left) For the ML the mech can withstand 4 hits with no real damage 5th penetrates the armor and the 8th removes the arm and 4 points transfer.
100 ton Mech For the AC the mech can withstand 1 hit with no real damage the 2nd hit penetrates the armor and the 3rd hit removes the arm and 19 points transfer (the torso would have 13~15 points left). For the ML the mech could withstand 6 hits with no real damage and the 7th would penetrate the armor and the 10th hit would remove the arm and 4 points would transfer( the torso would have 28~30 points left)
Getting shot in the arm by an AC is obvisously bad for anyone not heavy/assualt class. You have to be 60+ tons to not take a crit. You have to be 45+ tons not to lose the arm outright.
Note: Lunch is over, I will edit in some leg stuff later tonight.
The short version is: Getting hit anywhere by a AC20 sucks. But I will put some numbers behind that statement and some numbers behind the sandpaper theory.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/28/09 05:16 PM
24.5.141.133
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Just because you penetrate the armor that does not mean a crit. You have to role for the possibility of a crit. The AC20 gives you one chance of a crit. Each laser hit gives you a possibility of a crit.
I don't really care much about getting crits, I would rather just melt the location away and be done with it.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
05/28/09 06:21 PM
173.168.112.124
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Quote:
I don't really care much about getting crits, I would rather just melt the location away and be done with it.
Here, here. Don't depend on the dice. I'd prefer to bring enough solid firepower to blast apart a 'Mech rather than gambling on crit seekers and BFGs. A battery of medium lasers gives you a lot of chances to hit with at least something, and the average damage per turn will be as effective as those rare BFG hits.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/28/09 07:36 PM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't really care much about getting crits, I would rather just melt the location away and be done with it.
Here, here. Don't depend on the dice. I'd prefer to bring enough solid firepower to blast apart a 'Mech rather than gambling on crit seekers and BFGs. A battery of medium lasers gives you a lot of chances to hit with at least something, and the average damage per turn will be as effective as those rare BFG hits.
Exactly
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Flameblade
05/28/09 07:43 PM
98.81.3.201
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't really care much about getting crits, I would rather just melt the location away and be done with it.
Here, here. Don't depend on the dice. I'd prefer to bring enough solid firepower to blast apart a 'Mech rather than gambling on crit seekers and BFGs. A battery of medium lasers gives you a lot of chances to hit with at least something, and the average damage per turn will be as effective as those rare BFG hits.
Crit rolls? We don't need no stinking crit rolls. Taking the entire arm in one shot means I do not have to worry about trivial things such as crit rolls. On a 75 ton max armor mech thats a mere two hits for the mech to be mostly (h)armless. Especially when facing canon mechs which tend to mount weapons in the arms.
*snicker* crit rolls.
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Zandel_Corrin
05/28/09 07:55 PM
123.2.140.247
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Quote:
At putting a 20 hit shot in one hit location yes, no other weapon can do that, so of coarse it king. When you make the conditions narrow enough you can claim anything is king.
once again not what i was getting at.... i meant it's king of the short range weapons... point blank stuff no more then 6 hex range....
PoD has made a good point as well.... i didn't want to go there but the fear factor is a big boost. Not many mechs are willing to risk that one big shot that statistically should hardly ever happen but seems to happen much more often.
As for just slagging the locations and not relying on crits.... well 20 points to one spot is a lot of slag!
Once again tho.... not saying that lasers are bad.... just not as good as main guns.... however backing up one of these babies.... now that's a nice combo!
Incidently... that hunch IIC with very few mods is quite good.... just needs more ammo... i jrop the jets myself but the lasers could go instead..... 2 UAC 20 = up to 80 damage and that will spell death for any mech it's size or less after only a few if not one round of shooting.... when in range of course....
I've seen a hunch IIC take down an awesome in one round of combat.... 4 AC shots and 2 lasers to the CT.... i tell you it was down right freaky.... but that warrior got his glory and even survived the rest of the battle!
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Cray
05/28/09 09:39 PM
173.168.112.124
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Quote:
Quote:
Here, here. Don't depend on the dice. I'd prefer to bring enough solid firepower to blast apart a 'Mech rather than gambling on crit seekers and BFGs. A battery of medium lasers gives you a lot of chances to hit with at least something, and the average damage per turn will be as effective as those rare BFG hits.
Crit rolls? We don't need no stinking crit rolls. Taking the entire arm in one shot means I do not have to worry about trivial things such as crit rolls.
Flameblade, would you please calculate for me the number of turns required to get 2 hits (the hits may be single or double tap) with a UAC/20 at (respectively) target numbers 8, 9, and 10? If you'd show your work, I'd appreciate it.
Also, if you would calculate the percentile chance of getting a UAC/20 to hit with both shots in a double tap on one location like the arm you're talking about, I'd appreciate that, too.
Edited by Cray (05/28/09 09:42 PM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/28/09 10:25 PM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
I've seen a hunch IIC take down an awesome in one round of combat.... 4 AC shots and 2 lasers to the CT.... i tell you it was down right freaky.... but that warrior got his glory and even survived the rest of the battle!
Don't ever expect to see that again. To have 4 UAC hits to the CT with out to hit odds your looking at a 00.000423%
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
05/28/09 10:39 PM
173.168.112.124
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Quote:
Don't ever expect to see that again. To have 4 UAC hits to the CT with out to hit odds your looking at a 00.000423%
If you play BT - or any dice game - long enough, you'll see some weird stuff. I recall one game of a lance-on-lance battle where 3 of my 4 'Mechs were decapitated, and I wasn't parking behind partial cover. But that's after 23 years of playing BT.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Flameblade
05/28/09 10:53 PM
98.67.167.77
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all right back to what happens when we start hitting the legs.
35 tons: The AC 1st hit penetrates the armor and the 2nd hit destroys the leg 16 ponts transfer to the torso removing all the armor on the torso and adding a chance for crit on side torso. The ML the leg can take 3 hits with significant damge. The 4th penetrates the armor and the 5 takes off the leg with 1 point transferring to the torso.
55 tons: The AC 1st hit fails to do significant damage the 2nd removes the leg and 1 point transfers to the torso. The ML the mech takes 5 hits without significant damage. The 6th penetrates the armor and 8th hit removes the leg with 1 point transferring to the torso.
75 tons: The AC 1st hits fails to do significant damage the 2nd penetrates the armor the 3rd removes the leg and 12 points transfers to the torso. The torso has 12~15 points remaining. The ML the mech takes 6 hits without taking significant damage the 7th penetrates the armor and the 10th severs the leg.
100 tons: The AC The Mech takes 2 hits without significant damge, the 3rd penetrate the armor and the 4th removes the leg. 17 points transfer the torso which should have 17~19 points left. The ML the mech take 8 hits without significant damage the 9th penetrates the armor. The 13th hit finally severs the leg and 2 points transfer to the torso which will have 30~32 points left.
The legs obviously whether the storm of laser and ac fire much better than the arms. For 100 ton mechs it takes almost a full ton of ammo to remove a leg. It takes 14 shots or 3 tons of ammo to remove both arms and both legs from a mech. This is a big advantage for the lasers. However the lasers take time to do thier work. taking 9 consecutive hits to penetrate the armor.
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adamwehn
05/28/09 10:53 PM
66.227.178.216
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I've been on the receiving end of a Gauss Rifle head shot in the first round of an introductory game for my roomie when I was going to school.
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Flameblade
05/28/09 11:17 PM
98.67.167.77
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Quote:
Flameblade, would you please calculate for me the number of turns required to get 2 hits (the hits may be single or double tap) with a UAC/20 at (respectively) target numbers 8, 9, and 10? If you'd show your work, I'd appreciate it.
Also, if you would calculate the percentile chance of getting a UAC/20 to hit with both shots in a double tap on one location like the arm you're talking about, I'd appreciate that, too.
I would be glad to but everytime I try to do something like that I get corrected on my math. So feel free to do it yourself. While you are at it could calculate what the % of the 10 laser hitting the same location time after time.
The problem I have with to-hit numbers is that invaribly the asker wants to make sure that the are the same for both weapons. Even though every seasoned BT player knows that you have the superior range weapon (The AC) you would want to place yourself into short range and the opponent into medium. But who am I to use the AC to its fullest advantage? As a seasoned player I should play right into my opponents hands.
FYI I make no claim that the rounds will fall in the same location time after time. I am simply counting number of hits it takes on a particular location for the ML or AC to penetrate the armor or sever the limb. The purpose of the above exercise in hit locations is to show the effects of a hit from a AC20. Including that IF the AC20 is your only weapon to kill a assualt you need a heck of alot of ammo. For a light mech it means instant armor penetration in ANY location and if hit in the arms it means losing the arm.
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Cray
05/29/09 09:27 AM
147.160.136.10
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Flameblade, would you please calculate for me the number of turns required to get 2 hits (the hits may be single or double tap) with a UAC/20 at (respectively) target numbers 8, 9, and 10? If you'd show your work, I'd appreciate it.
Also, if you would calculate the percentile chance of getting a UAC/20 to hit with both shots in a double tap on one location like the arm you're talking about, I'd appreciate that, too.
I would be glad to but everytime I try to do something like that I get corrected on my math. So feel free to do it yourself.
It's 1% or less.
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While you are at it could calculate what the % of the 10 laser hitting the same location time after time.
Trick request. With 10 medium lasers the goal is to wear down the target, not spectacularly blow off any specific location by hitting one spot over and over. A more relevant statistic is the base chance of hitting the target is 10 times as high as hitting the target with the UAC, for the same TNs.
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FYI I make no claim that the rounds will fall in the same location time after time. I am simply counting number of hits it takes on a particular location for the ML or AC to penetrate the armor or sever the limb.
That's not a particularly useful number, though. Two more useful numbers are "how many turns does it take for me to get X hits with a given weapon," and "how many shots of ammo will I use getting those hits"?
The length of time it takes you to deliver a specific amount of damage is the length of time your unit is receiving fire, accumulating damage, and burning ammo. A shorter time is clearly better - waiting all day for a UAC/20 (or other BFG) to get that single hit is an inefficient means of killing a foe.
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The problem I have with to-hit numbers is that invaribly the asker wants to make sure that the are the same for both weapons. Even though every seasoned BT player knows that you have the superior range weapon (The AC) you would want to place yourself into short range and the opponent into medium.
That's a good point.
I actually have a weapon comparison spreadsheet that compares weapons on a hex-by-hex basis, so you can see the effect of shifting range modifiers. UAC/20s do not significantly outrange medium lasers. The matter's quite different for UAC/10s, of course.
Sarna.net never does the formatting correctly, but let's try...
The following comparison is of 1 UAC 20 (IS and Clan models) versus 8 (not 10) medium Lasers and 5 Clan pulse medium lasers. (Sorry, my sheet can only handle up to 40pts of damage.) The base target number (accounting for piloting skill, terrain, and movement) is 6. The sheet below accounts for the differing range-based target modifiers; you'll note sharp drops in damage at certain ranges. The damage in the weapon columns is the average damage (in points) per turn. The UACs are assumed to be firing at double speed every turn.
Code:
Range ISUAC/20 CUAC/20 8 ML 5 CPML
1 19.94 19.94 28.89 32.08
2 19.94 19.94 28.89 32.08
3 19.94 19.94 28.89 32.08
4 11.50 19.94 16.67 32.08
5 11.50 11.50 16.67 25.28
6 11.50 11.50 16.67 25.28
7 11.50 11.50 6.67 25.28
8 4.60 11.50 6.67 25.28
9 4.60 4.60 6.67 14.58
10 4.60 4.60 0.00 14.58
11 0.00 4.60 0.00 14.58
12 0.00 4.60 0.00 14.58
That looks fairly good on my screen. Observations:
The UACs are putting 40 points of damage in the air every turn, but only delivering a bit under 20 points of damage - that means they're only hitting every other turn at their short range best. At long range, the UAC/20s are hitting about once every 8 or 9 turns, meaning they're eating ammo like candy.
The standard medium lasers generally do more damage except where range breaks fail them, and they average over 5 hits per turn at short range. Even at long range (TN10), they're getting more than 1 hit per turn. And they have no ammo worries.
With an additional -2 to hit bonus and a range like the Clan UAC/20, the Clan pulse medium lasers own the battlefield. They're hitting better than 4 shots per turn at short range and 2 shots per turn at long range.
(Obviously, this is averaged-over-time data. You could easily go several turns without hitting with any laser.)
But, generally, both types of lasers always hit with *something,* and their per-turn average damage is generally better than the UACs.
Here's a comparison at base TN 8, representing a target with better movement or cover:
Code:
Range ISUAC/20 CUAC/20 8 ML 5 CPML
1 11.50 11.50 16.67 25.28
2 11.50 11.50 16.67 25.28
3 11.50 11.50 16.67 25.28
4 4.60 11.50 6.67 25.28
5 4.60 4.60 6.67 14.58
6 4.60 4.60 6.67 14.58
7 4.60 4.60 1.11 14.58
8 0.77 4.60 1.11 14.58
9 0.77 0.77 1.11 5.83
10 0.77 0.77 0.00 5.83
11 0.00 0.77 0.00 5.83
12 0.00 0.77 0.00 5.83
The long range average damage of the UACs plummets, indicating less than one hit per 40 rounds put in the air. That's not an issue for lasers, but against tricky targets the UACs need to hold fire until the range drops. The lasers can at least hope to wing the target with some damage every turn while the UACs mostly churn the landscape.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/29/09 01:32 PM
24.6.150.175
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Thanks Cray.
You showed what I was talking about very well.
Sometimes one can beat the odds, but in the long term the odds with beat you and make you cry for Mommy.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Lafeel
05/29/09 03:19 PM
85.220.109.98
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Strangest of things can happen when you are throwing one dice at a time, but generally the more you throw the more even the results get. (coming from a 40K player who's seen a lot of dice shennanigans in his time)
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Mekslayer
05/31/09 02:53 AM
71.141.123.254
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I think this is a chance to test everyone's monstrosity....
Just fight it out, whoever likes AC20's make an AC20 mech, whoever likes ML's make a ML mech....
Use the same basic tonnage and movement of the mech. Also to test it correctly, you must use 4/5, 3/4, and 2/3 pilots just to make certain we cover the bases....
then just fight it out in megamek... winner rests his case LOL...
-Mek
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Prince_of_Darkness
05/31/09 12:23 PM
71.214.3.38
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I think this is a chance to test everyone's monstrosity....
Just fight it out, whoever likes AC20's make an AC20 mech, whoever likes ML's make a ML mech....
Use the same basic tonnage and movement of the mech. Also to test it correctly, you must use 4/5, 3/4, and 2/3 pilots just to make certain we cover the bases....
then just fight it out in megamek... winner rests his case LOL...
-Mek
Honestly, that's what I thought they should have done instead of this stupid bickering for the past month.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/31/09 12:26 PM
24.6.150.175
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But that would not have been as fun.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
05/31/09 03:22 PM
173.168.114.22
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Honestly, that's what I thought they should have done instead of this stupid bickering for the past month.
If you want battles, go play MegaMek. Internet forums are for stupid bickering, not battles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Flameblade
05/31/09 03:30 PM
98.67.110.164
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I dont think i have even been a member for 1 month  the thread was started wha 5/26??? 5 days ago?
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