LAMdriver
10/07/09 05:26 AM
68.118.31.98
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Question: What Faction in the BT universe is the one that you hate the most. I mean if given a chance to stick it to them and cut out their heart with a spoon, which faction would you choose?
For me it is a toss up between the CC and the DC. Both are pretty inept in my opinion and their leadership is a joke for the most part. The most stupidest aspect of both of them is their unwillingness to change with the times in my opinion.
So what is yours?
" The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make some other bastard die for his!"--Patton
""War is Hell. Combat is a motherfucker."---General Tommy Franks
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Rotwang
10/07/09 10:28 AM
78.23.8.52
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Word of Blake
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Karagin
10/07/09 12:49 PM
72.178.75.99
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I agree, as they are currently written...before the whole Jihad storyplot they weren't to bad, now they are the worst thing to happen to Battletech since the cartoon.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KitK
10/07/09 03:26 PM
128.233.93.146
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I cant' stand the Capellan Confederation. They've had too many eccentric (whacky) leaders of whom Sun Tzu is the biggest weenie of all. And, I just can't abide by their KGB style, fear mongering, internal security methods. After that, the Jade Falcons always struck me as being odd ducks, and the Crusader Wolves bug me, but only because I bought into the storyline that Vlad Ward is a bad guy who hates Phelan and loves Katrina. Of the new stuff, Word of Blake tops my list of factions that can drop dead, which they do. So, I'd still count them as a minor faction not worth investing effort in aside from battletech, timeline trivia.
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OPER_DANG
10/07/09 05:41 PM
70.61.114.174
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Hmmm...I guess Ronin mercenary scum cannot really be considered "rivals"...
(woah!, where'd this black dragon in a red circle patch come from!?)
Edited by OPER_DANG (10/07/09 05:50 PM)
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Rotwang
10/07/09 06:03 PM
78.23.8.52
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I always wished that the CC would get a Coordinator like Aleisha Liao again just to break the cycle of certified nutcases, megalomaniacs and other creeps running the CC.
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Bob_Richter
10/07/09 07:17 PM
71.92.117.48
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I might go for the Capellan Confederation, if only for its fans. Some of the stuff it gets away with in canon is simply beyond belief.
Of course, since Betrayal of Ideals, Clan Wolverine has been climbing the list.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
10/07/09 11:08 PM
72.178.75.99
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Betrayal of Ideals, is this a new novel or source book or something one can only get by being a member of BattleCorps?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Lafeel
10/08/09 05:11 PM
157.157.185.29
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Vlad Ward, Katherine S-D, Clan Wolf, and everything they stand for. (but not the warden Wolves)
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Atlan
10/09/09 05:46 PM
123.255.60.181
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Betrayal of Ideals is a Battlecorps story by Blaine Lee Pardoe. From what I can tell, it's the story of the Wolverines.
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Karagin
10/09/09 05:53 PM
72.178.75.99
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I wish they would go back to putting novels out, and get rid of the special must join a club to get novels and short stories ala Battlecrops....
Any ways thanks for the info, guess it will be something else that we are forced to accept as canon, but a majority of players won't see aviable to them do to the way it's released.
Glad to see that TPTB are doing everything they can to tie up all the lose ends and do away with anything that fans latch on too...guess some of us should have picked better factions...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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sir_spamalot
10/10/09 10:33 PM
76.8.225.68
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I usually do the mercenary route...so who ever I'm paid enough to destroy/hate.... though I do have some groups I don't mind being a regular part of. 
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Bob_Richter
10/12/09 04:58 PM
68.113.1.138
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It's a Battlecorps story by Blaine Lee Pardoe that details a radical revision of the Wolverine story. I spewed a fair bit of bile and vitriol about it on CBT when it came out.
I will say that it did have its moments, but you are not missing much.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
10/12/09 05:25 PM
72.178.75.99
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Thanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Prince_of_Darkness
10/12/09 09:39 PM
205.202.120.216
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Quote:
It's a Battlecorps story by Blaine Lee Pardoe that details a radical revision of the Wolverine story. I spewed a fair bit of bile and vitriol about it on CBT when it came out.
I will say that it did have its moments, but you are not missing much.
Kinda sad to hear- I wanted it to make me want to get a subscription.
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Bob_Richter
10/15/09 01:41 PM
71.92.117.48
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Quote:
Quote:
It's a Battlecorps story by Blaine Lee Pardoe that details a radical revision of the Wolverine story. I spewed a fair bit of bile and vitriol about it on CBT when it came out.
I will say that it did have its moments, but you are not missing much.
Kinda sad to hear- I wanted it to make me want to get a subscription.
Well, Betrayal of Clanfans isn't exactly the best content on there.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Zandel_Corrin
11/29/09 10:20 PM
123.2.140.247
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Word of blake for sure....
I Always write them out of any campaign i run....
Can't stand them and the thought that they'd happily nuke everything
and send us all back to the stone age worse than the succession wars....
After them i'd actually like to see clan Smoke Jag come back...
They were a bit brutal but loads of fun!
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Prince_of_Darkness
11/30/09 01:47 PM
71.215.56.126
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Quote:
Can't stand them and the thought that they'd happily nuke everything
and send us all back to the stone age worse than the succession wars....
They're already doing that. With most of the new weapons being medium-ranged and with the houses now losing the ability to construct battlemechs, the Jihad is resembling the Succession wars, something that I really like.
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Christopher_Perkins
11/30/09 05:06 PM
138.162.128.52
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I have always Hated ComStar, these Evil Creeps are worse than the Davions at hiding acquisitive manipulation behind a White Knight Image... (only Davion is primarily Overt about being Acquisitive and is active in its Hearts and Minds approch to campaigns)
ComStar has always been the group that spotlighted Technology Firms and Too Successful Professors for the other houses...
Since the advent of Anastasis Focht ComStar has reformed...
With the reformation the Evil Creeps all moved to the Word of Blake...
As Such.
1: Word of Blake (or pre-reformation ComStar) being powerful beyond that expected for the number of planets
A: FASA ------- Check
B: Post FASA - Check
2: Word of Blake (or pre-reformation ComStar) being able to trick the houses into attacking each other and use that as a force multiplier
A: FASA ------- Check
B: Post FASA - Check
3: Word of Blake (or pre-reformation ComStar) being less concerned with human like than knocking the society of the innersphere down to bedrock to then be
A: FASA ------- Check
B: Post FASA - Check
4: Word of Blake (or pre-reformation ComStar) having the single best intelligence and Counter intelligence spook works in the InnerSphere and therefore able to Psyops the Houses and clans into fighting each other (and even themselves in some instances) (Remember the Treatment of the Wolf Dragoons, the Near Extinction of the Techs and Professors shortly after the beginning of the Succession Wars)
A: FASA ------- Check
B: Post FASA - Check
No, the events of the Jihad very much fit in with 20 years of BTU writing
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Cray
11/30/09 07:00 PM
173.168.115.68
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Quote:
Word of blake for sure....
I Always write them out of any campaign i run....
Can't stand them and the thought that they'd happily nuke everything
and send us all back to the stone age worse than the succession wars....
WoB's actually pretty light with nukes and the post-Jihad era retains pretty much all of the L2 technology seen in 3067. In fact, some experimental equipment becomes more common.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Frabby
12/01/09 07:11 AM
87.164.203.88
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Quote:
Question: What Faction in the BT universe is the one that you hate the most. I mean if given a chance to stick it to them and cut out their heart with a spoon, which faction would you choose?
The Clans.
Nothing in the entire universe - not the WoB, nor the CC or DC, nor even BattleMech technology, is so profoundly flawed, "unrealistic", cobbled-together and unbelievable as these jerks.
Real-world comparisons aside, the German-only novel "Karma" at least provides a believable picture of daily life in the CapCon and how the caste system works. I have yet to see something similar for the Clans; the existing novels left me... wanting.
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Cray
12/01/09 08:20 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
The Clans.
Nothing in the entire universe - not the WoB, nor the CC or DC, nor even BattleMech technology, is so profoundly flawed, "unrealistic", cobbled-together and unbelievable as these jerks.
Oddly, in a setting of broken economies and over-populated nations, the Clans are about the only ones (pre-Invasion) to get a plausible balance of military strength and economic clout (or lack thereof). Of course, background socioeconomic factors are rarely strong selling points for factions. 
That oddity aside, the Clans were not what I expected for Kerensky's return.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/01/09 11:03 AM
205.202.120.216
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Quote:
That oddity aside, the Clans were not what I expected for Kerensky's return.
Then what did you expect, Cray?
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Cray
12/01/09 01:55 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Then what did you expect, Cray?
Well, I had been playing for about 3-4 years before the Clans arrived and amassed a stack of BT books, like the House SBs, Star League SB, Wolf Dragoons publications, etc. The picture I drew from that information was:
1) Kerensky left with a load of military firepower that was probably in fairly good shape. BT military gear stores well, apparently.
2) Kerensky left with (to all appearances) a united group of military personnel and their families who were dedicated to the Star League and hyper-loyal to him.
3) They'd probably be military novices like the ComGuards for lack of experience
So, I expected an organization recognizably derived from the Star League, an SLDF-like military, and probably some diplomacy and contacts before any conflict erupted. Attempted restoration of the Star League seemed like a reasonable outcome since everything in prior publications hinted at the fanatical dedication of Kerensky's followers to the idea of the Star League, but I didn't see it being a unilateral effort by Kerensky's heirs. Some Houses would side with them; some groups (hopefully including Comstar) would oppose them.
My ideas were more than a little fuzzy because of the vagueness of the hints and rumors in BT books to that date, but they definitely didn't include the Clans.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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LAMdriver
12/02/09 03:14 AM
68.118.31.98
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Cray,
In your humble opinion, what Houses would have sided with the Clans upon their return from BFE space?
Just wondering.
You know as I read more and more history about the DC and the CC, I have come to realize one thing. I depise the DC more than the CC. I laugh at the CC in all it's inept planning and stupidty and consider them worthless as a whole.
Now the DC on the other hand, you have several good reasons for killing them off.
1. Kentarese massacre.
2. Seppiku and that Bushido philosphy, that has left them with little or no decent or inventive military commanders (with the expection of Teddy K)
3. the only half trained warriors are their DEST teams...even then i question their loyality....sort of like the Afghan and Iraqi Police and Army are trustworthy
4. Trusting the Yakuza...never a smart thing
and finally...
5. antagionizing at some point most of the most powerful independent Merc units in the IS
$0.02 C-bills
" The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make some other bastard die for his!"--Patton
""War is Hell. Combat is a motherfucker."---General Tommy Franks
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Cray
12/02/09 08:36 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Cray,
In your humble opinion, what Houses would have sided with the Clans upon their return from BFE space?
Referring to the Clans specifically: none. The Clans are an alien culture intent on breaking and conquering the Inner Sphere. That doesn't make one lean toward an alliance with them - Comstar tried and look how well that worked out. The only successful "alliances" between non-Clans and Clans has been accomplished from a position of huge dominance on one side or the other: the splintered Clan Wolf-in-Exile hiding with the Lyrans, the Ghost Bears eating Rasalhague, the Ravens "allying" themselves with the wimpiest major Periphery state, etc.
Quote:
Now the DC on the other hand, you have several good reasons for killing them off.
1. Kentarese massacre.
Funny thing about the Kentares Massacre: it was a drop in the bucket compared to the billions that the Houses were killing off with nukes. The FWL or Federated Suns cratered the Capellan world of Sarna, killing, IIRC, 7 billion people. Kentares Massacre kills less than 1% as many and the Combine is suddenly super-evil. I guess it was because the Combine got so personal and killing the Kentarans with conventional weapons rather than pushing a button and nuking them from orbit.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/02/09 06:33 PM
72.178.75.99
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Good to hear I am not the only one out there who can also dislikes the WoB and the uber army and the other craziness they have been given just to reset the story line.
Really these last few years must be the era of resets, first Batman gets reset, then Superman, then Terminator, then Knight Rider, then V, and so as Star Trek...resets can be a good thing and a bad thing...in this case it has been a bad one in my opinion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
12/04/09 12:34 PM
138.162.128.52
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What is so Uber about the Word of Blake?
They have High Tech units, but their longevity (From 3067 to 3081 (14 in game years) is more to do with the Innersphere powers having to do COIN (Counterinurgency) campaigns against a force so out numbered that it resorts to Weapons of Mass Destruction Attacks at the drop of a Hat.
About the only Uber thing that the Word has is the single best intelligence arm in the Innersphere, so much so that they can use Any Factions Specific Technology and convince House A that House B is gearing up for an attack or has used WMD on House A worlds, or the ever popular "WOB is your Friend, WOB Says So, Don't you Trust WOB?"
Thing is, if the Word of Blake is Uber, then COMSTAR was always Uber, and if ComStar has always been uber, then the ranting about the Change in BattleTech citing the "Uber" Word of Blake as evidence appears more of a Knee Jerk reaction from fans.
Do not get me wrong, I hated MWDA because it introduced the Collectible Packaging to mineratures, was out of scale with the minis that i already had, etc.
But the History & Story is very much in the hands of the same people that have always been writing it, and very much in keeping with what has been done before.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
12/04/09 01:22 PM
72.178.75.99
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Let's see, they have an army that they can build up, arm, train, supply and pay for far faster then any another Inner Sphere power.
They can do this with out anyone noticing or taking action to find out what is going. They can recruit, hire or brainwash millions of people to pilot the mechs, drive the tanks and other vehicles, fly the fighters, cook the food, repair all the weapons of war, keep them fully supplied logicality and pay for what all of this cost with seemly having to worry about it at all.
Having better weapons is not an issue, the Houses and Clans can counter those with their own R&D. Using NBC weapons, while not the best thing for anyone to be doing, those too can be countered, as for them being out numbered, please could you site a source of this? Seems that they have the numbers to attack whom and where they want until they finally have the WHOLE of the Inner Sphere and the Invasion Clans on their case. As for the Inner Sphere needing to do COIN Ops, they have those to due as a normal set of operations given that a lot of the planets aren't happy with the main government for one reason or another. So not a good counter point here Chris.
Their Intel is too perfect, no one else seems to be able to stop it or match, not even Wolfnet or ComStar or any house or clan. Convenient this is, is it not...along with their "finding" all of these "lost and still working" Star League bases and factories and supply dumps. They are able to keep all of the House Intel units in the dark, that too cost money, they are also able to pay for all of the "RIFTS/SHADOWRUN" style cyborg items that have given them, wait for it, their uber-mechwarriors, again all of this cost money. Money and technology that hasn't been explained or shown to be able to be found, yet same answers as how they pay for the mechs, tanks, bombs, bullets and all the rest are given. So if you can't see the point of saying that the Uber level is of the chain, to steal the favorite expression of one of my soldiers, then I guess we all play the game a little differently.
I am using the word Uber in the sense that things are too hard to believe possible to do even for the FASA/WK/FP/CGL version of physics and possibilities.
The knee jerk reactions also come from those who rush to defend how the Word of Blake can do all that they because of FWL money, or (and this one is always tossed out there) they own Terra which gives all of this without worry, to add in what ever you want as a reason, yet when it is pointed out the issues using the given cost of the in game items, those points are dismissed and the poster(s) get attacked or flamed etc...
Actually no the history of the game has changed far more then it has stayed current. The folks writing it right now are not the same ones back in the late 80s early 90s. With the exception of Stackpole and Pardoe. (Folks who were still just fans at that time period do not count, come Chris you should know this)
So they have not had a constant at all. Everything has been pet projects or hey we have a lot of books out, things are getting confusing, so let's cut things down, we don't need to update things as much as we need to trim, etc...sorry but I am not buying your closing line one bit.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
12/04/09 03:54 PM
138.162.140.55
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The Reference to COIN is because it appears that the vast majority of the conflicts that directly involve the Word of Blake are small scale in comparison with the militaries of the Innersphere and the Clans. It is more like the vietnam conflict than it is like world war II or korea.
The Heaviest presence of the Word of Blake Conventional BattleMech Forces is on the Capitol or Regional Capitol Worlds of the InnerSphere, not as vast a military as you are trying to make it appear.
Also, The Word of Blake was only really able to dominate the area that became the Republic of the Sphere shortly after the end of the Jihad shortly after 3081, an area roughly analagous to the Terran Hegemony. IIRC a sphere about 100 Light Years from Terra (?).
Yes, it is Larger than it should be, but probably on a factor of two or even five, not a factor of tens, hundreds or thousands.
As for the Economics... It is harder to understand how a C-Bill buys so little militarily in the rest of the InnerSphere than it is to understand how the Word of Blake could be able to squeeze out so much from the C-Bills that it got through any means necessary (including skimming IIRC 20% over and above what it was authorized to skim in the Free Worlds League, and a possibly Vast Amount that it could be getting from Taxing the Citizenry of Earth)... the Poorly executed economics have been a topic of discussion for years.
Give dates for when the current PTB started writing or held Positions for other than MechForce?
--- The history was set at five year (real time) meetings that set the path that FASA would take the game, and the people that set the path towards the end of FASA are still the people settig the Path in the Catalyst Era.
Give details supporting the vastly larger WOB military that you say exists?
Its exactly the same sort of thing that was happening when people were trying to claim that Technology had been reduced to the Age of War or Dark Ages when they were attacking DA when it first came out... The Truth is that the InnerSphere was able to produce Clan Tech (to a limited Extent) and had developed many Ship Board Components that did not exist in 3067. Dislike the time period all you want, (Like i hated the FC Civil War...) but look deeper into it when you are trying to say that something does not fit.
Direct Neural interface has been around for a long time (Unbound) , and Myomer Prosthetics (Mechwarrior: First) as well... what is different in the Manus Domini is the amount that each has been enhanced, rather than any superior new technologies.
The New Core Books are Reprises or clarifications of the majority of the equipment that has ever been published. The Juhad Books are Snapshopts of the Events in an Ongoing Story Line.... and how is 7 books that you need to get to get all the new core rules different from 7 books that you needed to get the old core rules?
Edited by Christopher_Perkins (12/04/09 04:02 PM)
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Cray
12/04/09 11:10 PM
173.168.115.68
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Quote:
Let's see, they have an army that they can build up, arm, train, supply and pay for far faster then any another Inner Sphere power.
That's false. They built their army at about the same rate as Comstar and the Clans built from military disasters in the 3050s, AND WoB built their army more slowly than ANY House rebuilds its forces.
WoB had about 100 regiments in 3067 of all types, calling for a construction rate of 5-6 regiments per year (1-2 'mech regiments and the balance in conventional units). The Houses were building 4-5 'Mech regiments a year in 3025 and had trebled that by 3067; their construction rate of conventional infantry and tank units was much higher than 'Mechs. WoB didn't hold a candle to the Houses. And this is noted in Jihad Secrets.
Quote:
They can do this with out anyone noticing
Many people noticed. This is stated in Dawn of the Jihad (which you own, IIRC) and Jihad Secrets. In the real Jihad (not the exaggerated version you're presenting here), WoB was watched and tracked. The Dragoons even made a military alliance against them. The clueless Clans didn't know what was aimed at them.
Quote:
or taking action to find out what is going.
Many people took action to find out what's going on - every intelligence agency in the Inner Sphere (except maybe infiltrated Comstar ROM and the incompetent Clan Watches). They kept an eye on WoB and its "secret" Periphery bases and figured WoB was going to have a fight with its "brother" Comstar, or resist the new Star League's efforts to reclaim HPGs as a federal institution. It turned out that WoB wanted to destroy the Clans, and threw a religious tantrum when the Star League collapsed unexpectedly.
This was published in Dawn of the Jihad, Karagin, and published years ago. You can't go on passing off your homemade nightmare as the real WoB forever.
Quote:
They can recruit, hire or brainwash millions of people to pilot the mechs, drive the tanks and other vehicles, fly the fighters, cook the food, repair all the weapons of war, keep them fully supplied logicality and pay for what all of this cost with seemly having to worry about it at all.
Cost? Karagin, you know perfectly well that WoB's army and navy are smaller than those of the four main invading Clans in 3050, and WoB has a much larger, richer population than those Clans. This has been in publication for three years, so you can't be that unaware. Why are you exaggerating like this?
Convincing was easy, and the perspectives of Clan supporters have been detailed throughout the Jihad sourcebooks. The Houses destroyed the Star League AGAIN - that's motivation for hundreds of billions of people to aid WoB. The Houses brought a decade of chaos and pain to the Core Worlds AGAIN - all the Hegemony planets that had suffered in the Succession Wars at the hands of the Houses were suffering again as the Chaos March. Motivations? There are plenty without even getting into WoB's own True Believers.
Quote:
Having better weapons is not an issue, the Houses and Clans can counter those with their own R&D. Using NBC weapons, while not the best thing for anyone to be doing, those too can be countered, as for them being out numbered, please could you site a source of this?
Dawn of the Jihad stated an estimate of 50 to 200 regiments, and Jihad Secrets confirmed that at about 100-120 regiments - all types of regiments, not pure 'Mech regiments. WoB is outnumbered many times over.
Quote:
Seems that they have the numbers to attack whom and where they want
Karagin, I don't know why you make the Jihad worse than it is. You hate your version of the Jihad and WoB so badly, but when confronted with years of evidence that explain or mitigate every complaint you have...you reject and go back to your own nightmare. I don't get that. You could be giving a sigh of relief that the WoB is not the nightmare you heard about in internet rumors shortly after FASA's collapse but, no, here you are, years later, trying to turn WoB into something it isn't.
Look at canon publications, like the Jihad Hotspots series:
1) WoB didn't attack everyone at once. It started off with 2 years of screw-ups. See Dawn of the Jihad and Jihad Hotspots 3070.
2) WoB was a small fry for 4 years into the Jihad. The Houses were too busy beating each other to a pulp to care much about WoB. See DotJ, JHS:3070, and JHS:3072.
3) WoB didn't attack anyone at will. It hit a few strong points while larger wars raged around it. See all JHS books.
4) WoB built its troops far more slowly than any House, and only as fast as Comstar in the 3050s. See Jihad secrets.
5) WoB fielded a smaller military than any House (note points 1, 2, and 3), and a smaller force than the four main Invading Clans (Wolf, Jaguar, Bears, Falcon) of 3050, but with a bigger population (6 billion vs 300 million) and higher per capita wealth than the Clans. The only reason WoB wasn't stomped immediately is because a little, tantrum throwing religious group invading a few worlds doesn't nearly measure up to the massive border conflicts between Houses. There were priorities, and WoB wasn't at the top of them.
That ain't the WoB you're talking about here.
I'll even put $4 down (on lottery tickets, as good as losing it) that you'll reject this post, too, Karagin, and go back to your version of WoB-the-Ultimate-Nightmare instead of reading the bits of DotJ, JHS, and Jihad Secrets that refute your version of WoB. I'm betting:
1) You'll ignore how widely spread in time WoB's initial attacks were
2) You'll ignore the contemporary, larger border conflicts between Houses and Clans
3) You'll ignore the other factions that built militaries as fast as WoB
4) You'll ignore the large factions that built militaries faster than WoB
5) You'll ignore the large conflicts like civil wars and conflicts with Clans that ate up those extra major faction forces
6) You'll ignore in-character availability of evidence implicating WoB in some conflicts
7) You'll use out-of-character hindsight and points 1-6 to say WoB should've been everyone's prime opponent in 3067
Please prove me wrong by coming out of your the nightmare of your own making. I'd like to win the lottery.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/05/09 12:18 AM
64.134.154.8
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No Cray, I am not ignoring anything. You are trying to sell something that doesn't make sense. You say they built up slower then anyone else, you cite the Clans, they had 300 years to get what they have, you sight ComStar, who had roughly that same amount of time to get what they had.
If folks noticed it would not have stayed a secret for very long. I have never said their attacks weren't wide spread, in fact Cray I have point out that those same attacks would be illogical to pull of given how it would take massive amounts of resouces and planning, which would invlove more people and thus the word (pardon the pun) would get out.
As for the border conflicts between the Clans and Houses, those were watered down via the PTB, to raids similar to what we all knew pre-Clan Invasion.
What other factions that built up a top notch elite military in a mere 21 years like the WoB? Could you give a few examples?
Extra factions in the Clans...let's see we have the Invasion Clans, and we have the Home Clans and we have the Dark Caste group...mix in the Warden stance and Crusader stance you have a group that is no more divided then your average House.
WoB and Comstar messing with stuff is not something I have pointed out as a problem, again you are jumping the gun here, I have pointed out the issues with logistical end of things, that is where I am having the problem, the same end of things that HAS NOT BEEN EXPLAIN IN FACTUAL MANNER.
I would love to read a source book that is all facts about the Jihad that actually gives facts not a bunch of newspaper reports.
So let me recap, the areas of the current storyline I dislike:
One the uber army that popped up over night, 21 years is over night in the scheme of Battletech.
The idea that their having Terra and the Sol System gives them carte blanc on everything.
The idea that they can afford to pay for, supply and man as well as replace things with ease.
And the last one is how easy it was to hide from the prying eyes of people like Wolfnet, NAIS, MIIO, ISF, etc...
So no Cray I am not in a nightmare and don't need to wake up. I just feel that they could have a done better job of resetting the BT universe, but given that all has to tie into the Dark Age setting, shows that hands were tied the minute that WK bought the rights to BT.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/05/09 01:36 AM
173.168.115.68
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Quote:
I would love to read a source book that is all facts about the Jihad that actually gives facts not a bunch of newspaper reports.
You had them handed to you on a platter in the Jihad Secrets. 4 pages laid out the whole thing, pg 11, 12, 13, and 14.
The Jihad Hotspots books provide convenient summaries of the prior publications' disjointed news reports, too. You only need a couple dozen pages in those books to put it all together, month by month, year by year, instead of reading all the little articles.
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No Cray, I am not ignoring anything. You are trying to sell something that doesn't make sense. You say they built up slower then anyone else, you cite the Clans, they had 300 years to get what they have
There you go again, ignoring timelines. The Clans had 250 years to build up to their invasion strengths...and then they got their asses kicked at Tukayyid and repeatedly afterwards. The Clans rebuild at the rate of regiments per year using merely hundreds of millions of supporting, impoverished people.
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you sight ComStar, who had roughly that same amount of time to get what they had.
Newp for two reasons. The Comguards were originally built from 1 regiment in the late 2900s to 144 regiments in 3025. Later, in 3062-3067, Comstar had 5 years to build 28 regiments. After the debacles in the 3050s, the Comguards had 86 regiments in 3062. In 3067, they had 100 regiments - despite losing 14 regiments in the FC Civil War (mid-3060s). Since the 3052-3055 post-Tukayyid reconstruction exhausted Comstar's SLDF stockpiles (see: Comstar SB), the 3062-3067 reconstruction was with new production and procurement rather than drawing on ancient stockpiles.
Per FM:Updates, and FC:Civil War, and pg14 of Jihad Secrets, the Comguards were building over 7 regiments (all types) per year in 3066-3067. Per the House Sourcebooks, this is a trivial accomplishment - The Houses were doing 4 to 5 regiments of 'Mechs per year in 3025, matched by 3x as many tank regiments and 5x as many infantry regiments. What's 7 regiments a 3025 House average of 36 or more regiments per year?
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If folks noticed it would not have stayed a secret for very long.
Dude, when you say things like that, it's clear you're not paying attention to canon in favor of your own, home grown version of WoB and the Jihad.
WoB's military wasn't secret. Dawn of the Jihad said as much in 2006. Throughout the early phase of the Jihad, people were wondering WTF WoB was up to. Read the books - the FWL was wondering why WoB wasn't helping them fight the Lyrans; the FedSuns used the CC's supposed collusion with WoB as an excuse to launch Sovereign Justice; etc. WoB's activities were very public.
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I have never said their attacks weren't wide spread
I think you misread what I said in my last post. I said, "WoB attacked few planets early in the Jihad." Few attacks, Karagin, not many. Only in your version of the Jihad does WoB attack everyone at once.
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in fact Cray I have point out that those same attacks would be illogical to pull of given how it would take massive amounts of resouces and planning, which would invlove more people and thus the word (pardon the pun) would get out.
For the first year, YEAR, of the Jihad, WoB hardly did anything except hit a handful of planets. That's detailed at length in Dawn of the Jihad. Stop exaggerating, Karagin. The Jihad isn't what you make it out to be.
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As for the border conflicts between the Clans and Houses, those were watered down via the PTB, to raids similar to what we all knew pre-Clan Invasion.
Why are you saying things blatantly contradicted by Dawn of the Jihad and Jihad Hotspots: 3070? The CC-FS conflict started by Sovereign Justice involved the entirety of the St. Ives Compact and later dozens of CC and Capellan March worlds. The Draconis March-DC conflict reached a dozen worlds, bigger than almost any 3rd Succession Wars campaign. The giant FWL-Skye conflict starting in 3067 involved more worlds than the LC and FWL fought over in the 4th Succession War.
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What other factions that built up a top notch elite military in a mere 21 years like the WoB? Could you give a few examples?
Trick question. WoB screwed the pooch constantly in 3067 in 3068. Far from being elite, it was a group of green troops that kept getting their asses kicked. The first two attacks on New Avalon were giant jokes that were defeatedly promptly. It wasn't until 3072 that WoB managed a halfway decent invasion of a planet that was ground down by civil war, three border wars (Capellan, Taurian, and Combine), and two direct attacks. Most WoB units show little sign of elitism. Even the Manei Domini didn't get their act together until they'd had several years of battlefield experience - they were overblown, fanatic crap at the dawn of the Jihad.
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One the uber army that popped up over night, 21 years is over night in the scheme of Battletech.
What WoB did is no different than post-Tukayyid Comstar, the post-invasion Clans, and post-3050 Houses.
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The idea that their having Terra and the Sol System gives them carte blanc on everything.
That's your own idea. In canon, having Terra and the Sol System let WoB built 7 regiments per year: less than 20% of the production rate of a 3025-era House. Stop making WoB worse than really is.
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The idea that they can afford to pay for, supply and man as well as replace things with ease.
They have more and wealthier taxpayers than the post-Invasion Clans.
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And the last one is how easy it was to hide from the prying eyes of people like Wolfnet, NAIS, MIIO, ISF, etc...
You are so thoroughly contradicted by canon on that point it's not worth further refutation. I can actually use that quote to show you're not reading the books and instead trying to pass off your own home game as the real Jihad.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/05/09 09:16 AM
205.202.120.216
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I wonder if Karagin realizes that we knew WoB was building up all the way back in the 3060's with the fluff for the Buccaneer and Initiate.
You know, I could go into depth like Cray, winning 4$ of lotto tickets and a good assortment of lulz, but instead I will proclaim something.
Nerd Rage.
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Cray
12/05/09 11:38 AM
173.168.115.68
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I wonder if Karagin realizes that we knew WoB was building up all the way back in the 3060's with the fluff for the Buccaneer and Initiate.
I don't know. What I have seen in Karagin on internet forums is a baffling display of a vigorous defense of something he's trying to argue against. When his concerns about the Jihad and WoB are addressed with book references that show his concerns to be exaggerated or outright wrong, instead of saying "Thank God, it's not as bad as I thought," he staunchly defends his version of the Jihad - the version he utterly hates.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/05/09 05:00 PM
64.134.154.8
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Cray, I think it is clear that we are not going to reach an agreement or an understanding on this issue. You can defend the company and the plot line given that you do work for them. So while that is fine, I feel that with you doing this you are doing nothing more then pushing the party line.
I am not passing anything off, I have read the books, I am not drawing the same conclusions that you are trying to tell me are the story. So far you have not done anything to convince me otherwise on how all of this was done to make things better, I see way to many loopholes, and you keep saying I am missing things, well to that I again say one sourcebook with NOTHING BUT THE FACTS, no news reports, nor extra bias stuff from one of the houses or other factions, just straight to the point facts about the WoB and their Jihad. Is that asking to much?
Telling me that their money and base of industry comes from Terra is not believable. I am sorry but if that was the case why didn't ComStar do what the WoB has done and launch this war 100 years ago? I can guess that is because they did not have the industry or base support to do it, and they didn't need to.
You can keep telling me I am wrong etc...but I am sorry that you feel the need to not listen to my points, the same points that have been either ignored, bashed or out right attacked by others on here to the point that it has gone personal. I am not the only one who dislikes the current storyline, I may be one of the more vocal about my dislikes, but hey that is life, I hear and see enough folks bashing Star Wars, or Star Trek or the Twlight movies and folks still go on supporting or playing the games, watching the movies etc...even the ones who are doing the bashing. All I am really asking for is that we get things straight, a set of books that actually tells us what is going on, like 90% of the older stuff did. Facts that give us how and why things happen. No extra BS, just the facts. Maybe next time you are talking with Randal and Herb you can bring it up, I think it would go a long way to clearing up things and might even get me to stop bashing this horrible storyline.
Can't hurt to ask.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/05/09 05:02 PM
64.134.154.8
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Great, I am wrong. Got it will make a note of it.
:rolleyes:
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/06/09 06:42 PM
123.2.140.247
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Either way I still don't like WoB.
My $2 worth
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Cray
12/06/09 07:31 PM
173.168.115.68
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Quote:
Either way I still don't like WoB.
No problem. No one's going to like every faction. I was just aiming to clear up some misconceptions. If you have the right info and don't like a faction, that's cool.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/06/09 07:33 PM
72.178.75.99
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Which is fine.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/06/09 09:50 PM
123.2.140.247
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Just to clear up why i don't like them.
it's not anything to do with what resources they have or anything like that...
it's there outlook and extremist beliefs... and even that's not too bad
But the real kicker is there lack of honor
Which is the reason i live the Dracs and Clans
Sure there a bit extreme themselves sometimes
but all in all there honorable and you can have an honorable stand up fight with them
Just my thoughts.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
12/06/09 10:01 PM
72.178.75.99
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Fine with me, hate them, love them or what ever, as some failed to remember the game is big enough for us to have what feelings or dislikes or likes about any one thing or another and the fun part is none of us are wrong.
I have stated why I don't like them, folks disagree with my choices, they tell me I am full of it for picking those parts to disagree with or I don't know what I am talking about. Great, I really don't care if they agree with me, but what is clear is that the current story line along with the Click Based game and storyline to leave the game then can be said to have brought into it. I am sure some will tell me I am wrong on that thought as well seems they are quick to tell folks how they are wrong when questions come up or we the fans point out that we don't want second rate slop and expect better from the game and the writers, but again that is fine, both sides of the debate have their say and both sides are indeed correct if that is what they believe.
Your choices for not liking them are just as good as any I have.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/06/09 11:53 PM
173.168.115.68
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Quote:
Just to clear up why i don't like them.
it's not anything to do with what resources they have or anything like that...
it's there outlook and extremist beliefs... and even that's not too bad
But the real kicker is there lack of honor
Look up Desert Storm or the US's battle tactics against Japan and Germany. All three used dishonorable advantages in air superiority to crush foes who, really, weren't the trouble of honorable war. Honorable in a chivalrous sense? No, not when children and women are being incinerated by the hundreds of thousands ('cept in Desert Storm, of course). Effective? Yes.
Similarly, WoB wanted to destroy rats, a dishonorable foe that lived for nothing but conflict and war. They planned to do so with nukes and cyborgs and WarShips to balance ultra-tech and genetic engineering. Dishonorable? Yes. Effective? Yes.
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Which is the reason i live the Dracs and Clans
The Clans don't have honor by the usual standards (plenty of honor by their standards, but not by traditional definitions). They're more an example of pride run rampant than anything. Sure, they restrict their battles, but it's more for personal glory - sort of like a pack of frat boys run wild under some chest-beating code of their own making than actually fighting with honor. Give them a little resistance and they'll claim it's entirely honorable to incinerate cities or obliterate planets to achieve peace.
"Rarg, me use ultra-tech and genetically engineered warriors to beat low tech, low skill foes. Rarg, that makes me honorable. Me cool because me invade random planets to prove me worthy of ruling Inner Sphere, rarg."
Nope. That's bullying and pride, not honor, IMO.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Christopher_Perkins
12/08/09 12:28 PM
138.162.140.54
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As for the border conflicts between the Clans and Houses, those were watered down via the PTB, to raids similar to what we all knew pre-Clan Invasion.
But Still enough to keep the Clans and houses distracted from the real enemy...
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One the uber army that popped up over night, 21 years is over night in the scheme of Battletech.
Not an Uber Army....
A small force on a Par with that of the ComGuard... maybe a little Tougher, but not able to really Conquer the Innersphere... This is why they failed, and were always going to fail...
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The idea that their having Terra and the Sol System gives them carte blanc on everything.
Star League had terra and had carte blanc
ComStar had terra and had carte blanc
Word of Blake had terra and had carte blanc
What has changed?
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The idea that they can afford to pay for, supply and man as well as replace things with ease.
no data that i have seen (and i have probably bought just as many jihad specific books as you have... or rather one more than you have... other than the one boook that I have no read nor do i really intend to, i have all of the new core rule books that have been released in PDF form... (including the RPG Beta)) indicates that they are able to supply or replace the units with ease... logistics for all forces in the universe are left out of the data... so there is no means to hold WOB trial for being uber on this issue...
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And the last one is how easy it was to hide from the prying eyes of people like Wolfnet, NAIS, MIIO, ISF, etc...
ROM has always been the Best of the intelligence services ... heck, for the longest time all the source books were in universe documents that ComStar Compiled with ROM information. Wolf Net was Second Best, and after the scism it was WOB ROM, WolfNet and COM ROM
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
12/08/09 12:55 PM
138.162.140.52
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Telling me that their money and base of industry comes from Terra is not believable. I am sorry but if that was the case why didn't ComStar do what the WoB has done and launch this war 100 years ago? I can guess that is because they did not have the industry or base support to do it, and they didn't need to.
Pre Feformation ComStar was content to be the power behind the throne... ReRead the Backstabbing and backbighting that these twistedly evil gits did in the Price of Glory, and the Warrior Trilogy... they only approached honor when they assisted Kurita in the heir to the Dragon.... and that is probably only because they had been infiltrated by an O5P adept
ComStar had precisely the Same resources that the Word of Blake inherited... and actually decided to put to use....
Not enought to successfully dominate the innersphere...
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All I am really asking for is that we get things straight, a set of books that actually tells us what is going on, like 90% of the older stuff did.
perfectly fine...
that is one thing...
Making Up things to hate about the universe as it is when even what little has been published or is common knowledge directly contradicts it is not.
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Facts that give us how and why things happen. No extra BS, just the facts. Maybe next time you are talking with Randal and Herb you can bring it up, I think it would go a long way to clearing up things and might even get me to stop bashing this horrible storyline.
What is so horrible about the storyline?
Small force that uses WMD and uses its intelligence assets to make itself a nusance from 3067 to 3081, POW escapes, forms a coalition force that effectively opposes the enemy instead of haring off against the the other houses when WOB intelligence interfears or misdirects retaliation for WMD Attacks.
Coalition Force gets concent to form new government of the war shattered area consisting of the Chaos march, Skye, and other regions as close to terra (from all but Liao, and they fail to win their territory back) Mech Control Laws in the Rotton Sphere (looks like I love the timeline... yup) that take military hardware out of the hands of civillians and nobles not participating in the government of worlds in the new government (under penalty of death) , but technology has advanced since 3067. With the slow fall of the republic of the sphere, the Dark Age/Age of destruction ends with the return of the Free Worlds League as a Viable Entity and a small rump state within a few jumps of terra that has collapsed in fear due to internal politics and adventurism on the part of the innersphere and Clan OZs.
I may have some details wrong... but nothing indicates the jagged jumps and swerves in the plotline that you claim exist....
I hate the Word of Blake, I hated ComStar before the reformation (and the jury is still out on post), have little Respect for the Republic of the Sphear...
But it is possible to hate the factions without claiming that the events do not flow or make little sense...
(If i was going to call foul... it would have been on the FCCW, but i know precisely what errors in judgement lead to it in universe... so I have no grounds to do so.)
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
12/08/09 01:41 PM
72.178.75.99
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Great, now I am making up things...sorry I am not making anything up.
But again I can see it has become pointless to have a negative opinion of the current storyline.
You and Cray both point out that the WoB used tech aviable and had the resources to do everything, yet the tech they used for the most part was level 3 tech, until the rules changed to allow them a lot of their wonder toys.
EI and other items out of Unbound were pretty much out of balance with the rest of the game, again level 3 tech. Then Somerset Strikers makes EI level 2, okay, but at a cost for the user, and then only die hard Clanners where using it.
Cybernetics, yes they have been around, but not to point that we had cyborgs running around the game. And given that the FWL is anti-cybernetic limb replacement, that can be found in FWL Housebook, I do find it interesting that they stayed allied with the WoB.
Weapon tech changes, we all know that, but this is Battletech things just don't happen over night and word does get around and folks go looking to see what they can steal or copy. Yet some how the WoB manages to do all of this advancement in technology and no one notices, and they start giving it away to their future enemies, under the idea of aid, yet are smart enough to build in safe guards that allow them to take over warships they sold to the FWL.
The novel IDEAL WAR, didn't make any major hints about the WoB having all of that great tech on Gibson, yet seems that did.
Again, I will point out my areas of concern, the money, sorry but I am not buying the argument that they could get all that have paid for via skimming the FWL for 80%, the factories to build the stuff, again an issue that is OVERDONE in Battletech. Finding a lost SL factory is great, having it in working order, not likely.
Yet everything the WoB managed to find, they were able to fix or it was still working...okay right.
Manpower, even with Terra, there is a limit on what they could filed for military strength, who is going to be doing the daily work of the government and the other civilian jobs if they are not there but out fighting the IS and Clans? Wait, merc units...only so many of them to really pick up, and ever failed unit can't be used to explain away their manpower.
Recruitment from the Periphery, okay, sure they could get some folks, yet how are they going to get them to their holdings in the Inner Sphere for training?
Which leads to my next point, Training, sure they could have folks who have worked with agromechs and other items but that is like saying if you know how to drive a tractor you can drive a tank, not the same, sorry. No military is going to drop you into a war machine and say okay go learn on your own. So where are the training bases?
Then big hurled that I just can seem to find away around and it isn't explained away, logistical issues. Their army, no matter the size, needs food and water, fuel, ammo, spare parts, new machines, new bodies, medical support etc...the same issues facing the other armies in the Inner Sphere and Clans, which are factors of cost and ability to do anything. Yet some how the WoB can do all that have done and this is not an issue. They can resupply, feed and maintain their units with out an issue, and do so even while fighting on multi-fronts.
You and Cray are quick to point out that they used regional issues to hide their attacks...okay that might work for a couple of attacks. But come on, none of the MI groups are going to buy that for more then three events. They will have folks on the ground doing their jobs, word (again the pun is not intented) would get out. Second by doing this, they are gaining what? No extra resources, no extra stagging areas...you two point out its' not a war of conquest, just punishment. Great, but again that doesn't explain away their moves to have worlds in a protectorate and under WoB run governments, that say conquest to me.
And then there is the bit about ALL of the Intel groups in the entire Inner Sphere missing the signs or misreading them to the point that they collectively don't do anything. You two have pointed out that most groups were worrying about the Clans and Internal groups, okay fair point, but they also managed to find time to watch and work against ComStar, yet some how they couldn't do this with the WoB. Sorry but I can't see that happening.
Then lets toss in the whole Dragoon attack on Mars, way out of character for them, losing Jamie or not, they wouldn't have gone off half cocked and went charging off at the Sol System.
But I guess my points here are just my making things up to bitch about the story and nothing more then an attack on the great folks who spent 5 years planning all of this, without anythinng tossed in from WK prior to their buying the rights, and we all should have seen this coming for years prior to this, cause it was hinted at from then end of the Clan Invasion. Funny the last Stackpole book about the Invasion stated that most of ComStar felt that any faction splitting off would wither and die due their inability to make spare parts and keep the HPGs running, I guess I misread the last chapters of LOST DESINTY.
And getting a couple of pages in a book filled with pages of fictional reports, aka news reports and editor comments to the writers, does nothing to convince me I am off track.
Again, how about you Cray convince TPTB that there is a need for a complete SOURCEBOOK with facts, dates, and info that we can all see and clearly understand that shows us HOW the WoB pulled all of this off. Is that asking too much?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/09/09 02:14 AM
71.215.56.126
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Karagin
12/09/09 10:01 AM
72.178.75.99
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Glad to know we can have a discussion like adults around here about something.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
12/09/09 12:07 PM
138.162.128.55
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Quote:
EI and other items out of Unbound were pretty much out of balance with the rest of the game, again level 3 tech. Then Somerset Strikers makes EI level 2, okay, but at a cost for the user, and then only die hard Clanners where using it.
The EI and the rest, are, to the best of my knowledge, still Experimental Rules technology... IOW, Still Rules level 3 with a new name (granted, some Rules Level 3 stuff was promoted to Standard or Advanced Rules, but EI and DNI didn't register as being so promoted)
and Manus Domini hardly qualify as average... More Like the Word of Blakes Answer to the Crusaders that alter themselves so freakishly... and I did not notice that the drawbacks of EI and DNI that make Mechwarriors using those technologies lack the chance of ever reaching true Elite Status...
Quote:
Cybernetics, yes they have been around, but not to point that we had cyborgs running around the game. And given that the FWL is anti-cybernetic limb replacement, that can be found in FWL Housebook, I do find it interesting that they stayed allied with the WoB.
Yes, it is quite odd...
But then again Thomas Marik is a Marik... and IDNR that Thomas Marik as "The Master" was ever contradicted...
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Weapon tech changes, we all know that, but this is Battletech things just don't happen over night and word does get around and folks go looking to see what they can steal or copy. Yet some how the WoB manages to do all of this advancement in technology and no one notices, and they start giving it away to their future enemies, under the idea of aid, yet are smart enough to build in safe guards that allow them to take over warships they sold to the FWL.
Which Tech did WOB Develop?
As for the warships... that is an example of how good their ELINT, and Computer Engineering is...
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The novel IDEAL WAR, didn't make any major hints about the WoB having all of that great tech on Gibson, yet seems that did.
not really sure what you are talking about?
Ideal war was written from a Knight of the Sphear's Perspective.. not one privy to the machinations of Word of Blake for all being set primarily on gibson...
Quote:
Again, I will point out my areas of concern, the money, sorry but I am not buying the argument that they could get all that have paid for via skimming the FWL for 80%, the factories to build the stuff, again an issue that is OVERDONE in Battletech. Finding a lost SL factory is great, having it in working order, not likely.
Money has always been poorly handled in BattleTech
Found Factories,
Found Warehouses, etc,
Staples of BattleTech...
Quote:
Yet everything the WoB managed to find, they were able to fix or it was still working...okay right.
point about the over use of Deus Ex Machina in BattleTech... but nothing that makes Deus Ex Machina for WOB especially egregious (Bad)
Quote:
Manpower, even with Terra, there is a limit on what they could filed for military strength, who is going to be doing the daily work of the government and the other civilian jobs if they are not there but out fighting the IS and Clans? Wait, merc units...only so many of them to really pick up, and ever failed unit can't be used to explain away their manpower.
Mainning of the Military in the InnerSphere is much less than the per capita manning of the military... and if you factor in Police + Military get the percentage of the population that way, then it gets even worse, even factoring in the number of House Military (Stars), Regional Millitia (almost Never written About), Planetary Millitia (Even Less), Noble House Militaries, House Police Forces, Regional Police Forces, Planetary Police Forces, and Nobles or Municipalities Police Forces. the Bleed off from all over the InnerSphere that made ComStar such a quiet Power House is still feeding both the Word of Blake and ComStar.
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Recruitment from the Periphery, okay, sure they could get some folks, yet how are they going to get them to their holdings in the Inner Sphere for training?
How do the worlds that require imports of food to even subsist survive at all?
The Recruitment from the periphery of Pirates for ROM is more because pirates do not concern themselves with niceties such as human rights, etc... and that dates from, well, at least the Warrior Trilogy.
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Which leads to my next point, Training, sure they could have folks who have worked with agromechs and other items but that is like saying if you know how to drive a tractor you can drive a tank, not the same, sorry. No military is going to drop you into a war machine and say okay go learn on your own. So where are the training bases?
Training Bases are probably on the five? worlds that ComStar managed to hide from the InnerSphere
That Being Said, Training is the only bottleneck that really applies to Manpower...
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Then big hurled that I just can seem to find away around and it isn't explained away, logistical issues. Their army, no matter the size, needs food and water, fuel, ammo, spare parts, new machines, new bodies, medical support etc...the same issues facing the other armies in the Inner Sphere and Clans, which are factors of cost and ability to do anything. Yet some how the WoB can do all that have done and this is not an issue. They can resupply, feed and maintain their units with out an issue, and do so even while fighting on multi-fronts.
again, a failing of the authors in general rather than something specificly uber about WOB... logistics is often only a factor in logistics when it is being used as a reason for a unit to go rogue, or jump house affiliation.
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You and Cray are quick to point out that they used regional issues to hide their attacks...okay that might work for a couple of attacks. But come on, none of the MI groups are going to buy that for more then three events. They will have folks on the ground doing their jobs, word (again the pun is not intented) would get out. Second by doing this, they are gaining what? No extra resources, no extra stagging areas...you two point out its' not a war of conquest, just punishment. Great, but again that doesn't explain away their moves to have worlds in a protectorate and under WoB run governments, that say conquest to me.
The Word of Blake protectorate was a quiet take over for the most part and of territory that was disorganized by the Marik-Liao Offensive against the Federated Commonwealth, and the main overt act was the sacking of Outreach that predated the bulk of the Jihad... and even then it was viewed as a private conflict between the Wolf Dragoons and their old Enemies...
Cray has said that the Forces were over the Capitol Worlds as an Award for the anticipated ratification of the Word of Blake as a full member of the Star League, and possibly a renewed offensive to kick the clans out of the InnerSphere Entirely... This would place the Manus Domini as originally having been geared for Anti-Crusader action.
When the Star league was terminated so suddenly, WOB Freaked out and haphazzardly and indescriminately bombarded, sacked, and or used WMDs on the capitols and other strategic Targets...
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And then there is the bit about ALL of the Intel groups in the entire Inner Sphere missing the signs or misreading them to the point that they collectively don't do anything. You two have pointed out that most groups were worrying about the Clans and Internal groups, okay fair point, but they also managed to find time to watch and work against ComStar, yet some how they couldn't do this with the WoB. Sorry but I can't see that happening.
Not sure that the Houses were carrying out a covert war against ComStar at this point... ComStar was part of the coalition that eventually put the World of Blake down
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Then lets toss in the whole Dragoon attack on Mars, way out of character for them, losing Jamie or not, they wouldn't have gone off half cocked and went charging off at the Sol System.
Given bad intel (IOW, assuming that Mars was Tertiary instead of WOBs primary installation...) not really surprised that they got their heads handed to them... nor am i surprised that they made the attempt, nor am i surprised that it took years for ComStar and the Remants of the Wolf Dragoons to get the Innersphere actually Working together
Anton Marik kills Dragoon Civillians... Anton Marik winds up dead with a surgical strike by the Black Widows Forces
House Kurita kills Dragoon Civillians... Misery Happens... a meat grinder that it took the Wolf Dragoons decades to recover from
Word of Blake Kills Jamie Wolf using Cats Paws and other undesireables... The Assault on Mars happens... Without Jamie, Without Good Intel, a reconnisance in force gets trashed
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And getting a couple of pages in a book filled with pages of fictional reports, aka news reports and editor comments to the writers, does nothing to convince me I am off track.
Not really interested in the news books either... i only have one... and am probably not going to get any more of them...
but that mishandling has nothing to do with the things that do not fit with what is publisly known...
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
12/09/09 05:10 PM
72.178.75.99
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Thank you for the input, I will read it over again, here in the next few days and I will post my comments.
And thank you for discussing this, so far it has been informative.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/21/09 10:10 PM
123.2.140.247
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again, a failing of the authors in general rather than something specificly uber about WOB... logistics is often only a factor in logistics when it is being used as a reason for a unit to go rogue, or jump house affiliation.
Operation Bulldog anyone? Logistics were talked about there... specifically how good they were.
But your right they do seem to be left by the wayside often.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
12/22/09 12:01 AM
72.178.75.99
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Talked about then forgotten, by the time of Operation Serpent, the idea of worrying about supplies and the rest fell back to a mere footnote for TPTB.
Some times it seems, at least to me, that one or more of the writers reads or sees something about an aspect of warfare, it sounds really cool, they jump all over it, then it gets old and boring to them and they go off to find something else to add to the game or their next story.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
12/23/09 03:31 PM
138.162.140.54
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Some times it seems, at least to me, that one or more of the writers reads or sees something about an aspect of warfare, it sounds really cool, they jump all over it, then it gets old and boring to them and they go off to find something else to add to the game or their next story.
Game, Set, Match
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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