Infantry Damage Dealing Rules

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BooHagen
12/16/10 03:08 PM
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Hey guys and girls!

New to the forums (long, long time sarna user).

We are attempting to incorporate infantry into our battles, but are struggling with how we read infantry damage dealing rules.

CBT TW tells us after a successful hit, take the number of troopers in the unit and roll against that column in Cluster Table to find the number of actual hits. Then take that result and reduce by the number of troops max weapon damage in the appropriate Arms column. Group damage into sets of 2.

If we read this correctly, that means a basic ballistic rifle platoon with 17 or more members who all hit can deal 9 points of damage, feasibly peeling off a battlemech's head in a single turn.

The scale...seems off

Thoughts? Corrections? Confirmations?

Many thanks!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/17/10 12:04 AM
70.0.244.48

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Hitting the head 5 times in a row is 60,466,176 to 1 I would not count on ever seeing that happen.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
BooHagen
12/17/10 12:23 AM
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Indeed. That example was admittedly too drastic.

Looking at it this way: A platoon of 28 ballistic rifle-armed soldiers can deal as much damage (15) in a single turn as a clan gauss rifle. That platoon can actually deal more, excepting the artificial cap.

Are we reading this correctly? It seems hefty.

Thanks HMRHD!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/17/10 02:50 PM
173.127.151.204

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I think that PBIs should automatically hit. Its how much damage that they do should be considered, from 0 to there max limit. What is the chance that 28 riflemen would miss a target that is as big as a building and is less than 100 meters away!

I do agree that most PBIs do way to much damage to mechs. The one group of PBI that I agree with about damage are rocket armed PBI. One SRM missile does 2 points of damage to a mech and it weighs 22 pounds. A heavy rocket launcher weighs 45 pounds, granted that is the weapon and the rocket, and only has a chance of doing one point of damage.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
KitK
12/18/10 11:11 AM
71.17.192.22

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Hi BooHagan,

The board had been a bit slow for a few months now, but keep and eye on it for a better informed response than my own.

My only exposure to infantry (outside of reading the rules) has been in MegaMek, which I don't fully trust. But from that it sounds like you are on the right track.

Between heavy damage and no target movement modifiers (which addresses HMRHD's comment about not being able to miss something the size of a building at 90m), attacking infantry seems to be a pretty dangerous proposition for a Mech. I suspect that new, longer-range, anti-infantry weapons introduced for later eras addresses the problem. But that doesn't help much if you are playing 3025.

If you are playing with custom designs it creates a niche for Mechs designed for anti-infantry work and creates a use for the small pulse laser.

KK
CrayModerator
12/18/10 11:55 AM
97.100.133.59

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Quote:

CBT TW tells us after a successful hit, take the number of troopers in the unit and roll against that column in Cluster Table to find the number of actual hits.




Yep, pg214-215 TW.

Quote:

Then take that result and reduce by the number of troops max weapon damage in the appropriate Arms column.




pg215: "The player then
cross-references the number of troopers that struck the target
with the appropriate Maximum Weapon Damage Per Platoon
Type column on the Generic Conventional Infantry Damage
Table (see p. 216) to determine the actual damage dealt to the
target; players can also fi nd this information on the Generic
Conventional Infantry record sheet."

So, just to be on the same page, let me roll out an example based on the one in TW. A platoon with 19 surviving troopers fires at a 'Mech and hits. You then go to the cluster hits chart, column 19, and roll 2d6. Say you roll 8. Per the cluster hits chart, an "8" on column 19 means 11 troopers hit.

Flipping back to the Generic Conventional Infantry Damage Table (or looking at your infantry chart), the resulting damage depends on the type of infantry. For Rifle Infantry, 11 successful infantry hits means 6 points of damage is done.

The damage is then applied in sets of 2pts, so you'd make 3 hit location rolls on the target for the 6pts of damage.

Quote:

Group damage into sets of 2.




Yep. pg215.

Quote:

If we read this correctly, that means a basic ballistic rifle platoon with 17 or more members who all hit can deal 9 points of damage, feasibly peeling off a battlemech's head in a single turn.




Since the average 'Mech's head has 9 points of armor and 3 points of internal structure, you'd need a rifle platoon with 23 or more troopers to take the head off completely - if you could land 6 consecutive head hits. In typical frontal attacks, a head hit is a 1-in-36 event, so you're looking at a 1-in-2.18 billion event to 6 of them in an unbroken row AFTER you also achieved the initial hit (which is typically less than 50% of shots fired in BT) and AFTER you also achieved the rare event of getting sufficient numbers of infantry to hit. For 17 rifle troopers, it's a 1-in-12 event to inflict 9 points of damage.

Even taking all the armor off the head requires 5 consecutive head hits, a 1-in-60.5 million event (not counting the to-hit percentage and cluster hits results). If you can manage that regularly, you should be in Vegas instead of playing BT.

Quote:

Looking at it this way: A platoon of 28 ballistic rifle-armed soldiers can deal as much damage (15) in a single turn as a clan gauss rifle. That platoon can actually deal more, excepting the artificial cap.




I wouldn't look at it that way, since it overplays the infantry by leaving out a few important differences between the infantry and GR.

1) There's rate of attacks. With its range, a GR will be able to engage far more targets on the typical battlefield than even LRM infantry (range 9), let alone rifle infantry (range 3).

2) There's rate of hits. With its range, rifle infantry have trouble hitting targets at range 3 (+4 to hit, long range) and can't hit anything at range 4. On the other hand, a GR is still at short range at 7 hexes and not sweating hard at 1 hex (+2 to-hit minimum range) or 15 hexes (+2 to-hit medium range).

Points 1 and 2 alone make infantry rather less impressive than heavy weapons when averaged over time in battle. They get far fewer chances to hit and hit less often when they can attack. But, there's more:

3) Infantry spread their damage. You saw the infantry's chances of concentrating damage usefully on a 'Mech, particularly to decapitate. In the same typical conditions, a GR has a 1-in-36 chance of decapitating a 'Mech with every successful hit. There are also plenty of light and medium 'Mechs that will be mauled by 15 points of damage in one spot.

4) Infantry aren't that durable or mobile. An infantry platoon with even 20 points of damage (were there such a thing) is chum for one machine gun if it gets caught in an open field, and most infantry only crawls along at 1MP. Most GR-toting units are faster and far more durable than an infantry platoon.

So, IMO, let the infantry have their high damage. They won't get to use it often in a typical board game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (12/18/10 12:12 PM)
CrayModerator
12/18/10 12:14 PM
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Quote:

I think that PBIs should automatically hit. Its how much damage that they do should be considered, from 0 to there max limit. What is the chance that 28 riflemen would miss a target that is as big as a building and is less than 100 meters away!




A successful hit with a BT infantry weapon on a 'Mech is more than just getting your bullet to connect. It's about actually achieving useful damage with that hit. You can hit a 'Mech or tank with lots of rifle bullets before you do something effective.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/18/10 05:31 PM
173.148.213.65

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Quote:

Quote:

I think that PBIs should automatically hit. Its how much damage that they do should be considered, from 0 to there max limit. What is the chance that 28 riflemen would miss a target that is as big as a building and is less than 100 meters away!




A successful hit with a BT infantry weapon on a 'Mech is more than just getting your bullet to connect. It's about actually achieving useful damage with that hit. You can hit a 'Mech or tank with lots of rifle bullets before you do something effective.




If I was writing the rules PBI would do no damage to the armor. Most small arms would just bounce off the armor. The PBI would have to role a to hit and if they do hit all damage would hit internal components and will have bypassed the armor entirely. Like in modern warfare tanks are shot at the tracks and the fitting between the main body and the turret by infantry. More so to knock it out long enough for artillery can hit it or a friendly tank.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
CrayModerator
12/18/10 09:13 PM
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Quote:

If I was writing the rules PBI would do no damage to the armor. Most small arms would just bounce off the armor.




What about the heavier arms mixed in with a rifle platoon, the latterday TOWs?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Christopher_Perkins
12/19/10 12:13 AM
24.125.16.116

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Most PBI Weapons don't do damage to BattleMech Armor in the rules... if TW/TM gives a weapon a 0.25 damage rating... it takes 4 of them to do a single point of damage... if you only have a single PBI by himself, that quarter point of damage only serves to say "Here I AM, I am an Idiot, Please Squash Me"...

Same as when someone with an AK-47 scratches the paint on a Tank or Armored Calvary Vehicle
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/19/10 12:25 PM
184.224.140.145

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Quote:

Most PBI Weapons don't do damage to BattleMech Armor in the rules... if TW/TM gives a weapon a 0.25 damage rating... it takes 4 of them to do a single point of damage... if you only have a single PBI by himself, that quarter point of damage only serves to say "Here I AM, I am an Idiot, Please Squash Me"...

Same as when someone with an AK-47 scratches the paint on a Tank or Armored Calvary Vehicle




One or 28 assault rifles should still do no damage to the armor. The bullets should just bounce off. What should help PBI is that mechs have lots of holes where small bullets can get past armor and hit something that can be damaged by something small bouncing around inside. Of course that is why battlemechs will never be found in the real world, but that is a long dead thread.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/19/10 12:33 PM
184.224.140.145

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Quote:

Quote:

If I was writing the rules PBI would do no damage to the armor. Most small arms would just bounce off the armor.




What about the heavier arms mixed in with a rifle platoon, the latterday TOWs?




Is that not why there are rocket platoons in the game to represent troops armed with such weapons?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Christopher_Perkins
12/19/10 05:01 PM
24.125.16.116

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Quote:

[One or 28 assault rifles should still do no damage to the armor. The bullets should just bounce off.




Incorrect, in the real world, a specific ammo type is stated to be armor piercing if is capable of piercing a stated thickness of reference armor (generally rolled homogeneous steel armor or equivalent = RHAe) at a stated distance.


Quote:

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/30_ammo.htmlCartridge, Caliber .30, Armor Piercing, M2 - Penetration, fired at 7/8-inch (22.23 mm) thick homogeneous armor plate at 100 yards (91 m), will be not less than 0.42 inch (10.66 mm).




This metric is reproduced in an optional section of the infantry creation rules in which weapons with an armor penetration rating of less than 5 (i.e. 50%) were optionally excluded from an infantry platoons damage rating when fired against armored targets.

the TW/TM infantry weapon stats come through running the Combat Operations Infantry Platoon Creation Rules Formulas on Mechwarrrior Third Edition/CBT RPG Weapons... not really sure if they have worked up to this metric in A Time of War yet.


Quote:

What should help PBI is that mechs have lots of holes where small bullets can get past armor and hit something that can be damaged by something small bouncing around inside. Of course that is why battlemechs will never be found in the real world, but that is a long dead thread.




The Infantry Platoon Creation Rules weapon conversion formula take into account many factors

The Armor Penetration Rating of the (shells/rounds/cartridges = for ease, shells) fired by the Weapon
The Number of Shells fired by the Weapon (note, the less shells a weapon fires, the more of the damage potential of a shell is used in the calculation-q.v. recoil, etc.)
Whither or not the Shells are incendiary
Whither or not the Shells are explosive
There is also a Penalty if the weapon's native ammo load cannot provide 10 BT Turns of Fire for Personal Weapons or 3 BT Turns of Fire for Support Weapons.

Since the rules predate the Barrier Rating System by an unknown number of years, the all Targets are assumed to have a Barrier Rating of 10 (but this is easily bypassed by adding in a percentage basis with 10 = 100%

I can go into detail.... but i will not if you take me at my word that the infantry weapon stats are well worked out. (except for certain exceptions that would take three or four posts to explain and have no bearing as they cover BattleArmor Mounted Weapons that were RPG Statted at LESS than they should be to Fit their BattleTech Stats)

only real beaf with the system is that they made it all but impossible to reproduce a few of the BattleTroops Platoons (well, either that or made them Move or Fire... a limit i can agree with)

is it really possible for 28 Men to Break Down a Fireing Position, Run 30 Meters to a New Position, Set up to fire (not expecting a fully dug in fireing position, only expecting functional) Cooordinate a target on a 30 foot tall/12 Meter Tall Imposing Walking Tank, and fireing a seconds long burst at said target... all in 10 seconds.

Platoons in question are

MG Platoon
3 Line Squads, each consisting of 1 Squad Commander with an Auto Pistol of Some Sort (Colf 45?/Baretta 9 mm?), 4x Troopers/Assistant Machine Gunners/Spotters armed with SMGs (M5? but for some reason i feel it would be more likely to be Carbines like the M4 than SMGs but SMG is what was written), and 2 Machine Gunners, each carrying a Medium Machine Gun (M249/M240 B/M60/M1919 A4/M1918 BAR-TW/TM Portable or Semi Portable MG) and 1 Support Squad consisting of the Platoon Commander with an Auto Pistol, 4x Troopers/Assistant Machine Gunners/Spotters with SMGs, and 2 Machine Gunners Carrying a Heavy Machine Gun (Best equivelent is the M2 Browning .50 Cal - TR3026 used the in-wing model as the picture... for an infantry portable weapon... umm, yeah - TW/TM Support MG)

Rifle Platoon
3 Line Squads, each consisting of 1 Squad Commander with a Rifle of Some Sort (M1 Garand, M16, etc, there is some degree of controversy because the linkage between RPG1E and BTroops is vague about the possibility of burst fire for this weapon- I am edging toward the M16 Equivalent though i was originally strongly M1 equivalent) with an attached grenade launcher, 4x Troopers armed with SMGs, and 2 Riflemen carrying a Rifle and an attached Grenade Launcher and 1 Support Squad consisting of the Platoon Commander with an "Rifle" with an attached grenade launcher, 4x Troopers/Assistant Machine Gunners/Spotters with SMGs, and and 2 Machine Gunners, each carrying a Medium Machine Gun (M249/M240 B/M60/M1919 A4/M1918 BAR - TW/TM Semi Portable or Portable MG)

Laser Platoon
3 Line Squads, each consisting of a Squad commander carrying a Laser Rifle, Another Trooper/Assistant Gunner Carrying a Laser Rifle, a Trooper/Rifle Mann Carrying a Laser Rifle with an attached Grenade Launcher, 3x Troopers carrying Blazer Rifles, and a Gunner Carrying a Semi-Portable Class Support Laser (Lower Powered version of Small Laser - TW/TM Semi-Portable Support Laser), and a Support Squad consisting of the Platoon commander carrying a Blazer Rifle, Two Trooper/Assistant Gunners Carrying a Laser Rifle, 2x Troopers carrying Blazer Rifles, and 2x Gunners, each Carrying a Semi-Portable Class Heavy Support Laser (Lower Powered version of Medium Laser - TW/TM Heavy Support Laser)

Heavy Flamer (this one is tougher to spec out)
3 Line squads, each consisting of a Squad commander carrying a "Heavy Flamer" (TW/TM Heavy Flamer Flamer?/WWII tank fed trooper portable flamer? or TW/TM Man Portable Flamer), 1 Trooper with a Grenade Launcher (Bloop Gun - TW/TM Automatic Grenade Launcher), 1 Trooper with an SMG, 1 Trooper with an Inferno Launcher (*****), and three Troopers carrying Flamer Pistols (TW/TM Flamer Pistol), and a Support Squad consisting of the Platoon Commander carrying a Heavy Flamer, Two Gunners Assistants Carrying Flamer Pistols, 2 Troopers Carrying Inferno Launchers, and Two Gunners, Each Carrying a Light Machine Gun.

SRM Platoon (this one has 4 support weapons per squad so is impossible under the IPCR Rules... or, perhaps rated as move or fire despite not really being a crew served weapon)
3 Line Squads, Each Consisting of a Squad Commander carrying a SMG with an Attached Grenade Launcher, 2 Troopers/Assistant Missile Troopers carrying SMGs, and 4 Missile Troopers, each Carrying a 2 Chamber Light SRM Launcher (*****) , and a Support Squad consisting of the Platoon Commander carrying a SMG with Attached Grenade Launcher, 2 Missile Trooper Assistants carrying 2 SMGs, and 4 Missile Troopers each carrying a 1 Chamber Heavy SRM Launcher (*****)








***** 2 Chabmer, Light SRM Equivelent left out of Modern Rules or 1 Chamber Heavy SRM Equivelent left out of Modern Rules.
The writer of LosTech Messed up and the Writer of BACR didn't Catch it , and i confused the PTB before the writing of TW/TM when i explained the issues with the RPG SRMs in the 3rd Edition Rules. :O
In Both the 1st Edition and 2nd Edition RPG Rules there was lighter 10 kg 1 BT point SRM with 2 Chambers that was published in the core RPG book and a heavier 20 kg 2 BT point SRM with 1 Chamber that was published in the Supplimental RPG Book.... When the 3rd Edition RPG Book was written, the SRM had updated stats that had the Mass that corresponded to a 2 Chamber Heavy SRM but having stats that the Later IPCR Conversion formula revealed to have only 1 BT point per missile... thus there is no RPG equivelent to the BattleMech Launched SRM, but there is a launcher that has the mass for it. Subsequent Additions to TW/TM have not fixed the error, and the Time of War Beta PDF Release appears to substantiate my fears that i confused them horribly

Now its

Light SRM, 2x (D) Ordnance Missiles, 10 kg (D Anti-Vehicle = AP 8X / BD 11A) (D HE = AP 6X / BD 11A) or .54 Damage (should be 1 damage * 2/3 or .67 incorporating Ammo Penalty for having less than 3 turns of fire on the battletech scale before reloading- TW/TM may have omitted blast characteristic is 0.81 natural and .54 after ammo nerf... Still doesnt compute... use the damage rating below and this weapon's mass to get the RPG 1E weapon of the same name)

Standard SRM, 2x (E) Ordnance Missiles, 30 kg (E Anti-Vehicle = AP 8X / BD 12A) (E HE = AP 6X / BD 12A) or .63 Damage (should be 2 damage * 2/3 or 1.33 incorporating Ammo Penalty for having less than 3 turns of fire on the battletech scale before reloading- TW/TM may have omitted blast characteristic is .945 natural, and .63 after ammo nerf... computes to what the above should have been... )

Heavy SRM, 1x (F) Ordnance Missile, 20 kg... umm, (No Class F Ordnance Exists in ATOW??... Should be Class E as Above) or .41 damage (should be 2 damage * 1/3 or 0.67 incorporating ammo penalty for having less than 3 turns of fire on the battletech scale before reloading... - TW/TM may have omitted blast characteristic... 1.23 natural, and .41 after ammo nerf, still does not compute... but its closer...) Roughly Equivalent to a TOW or Dragon ... Javelin would correspond to a Streak/Advanced SRM
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield


Edited by Christopher_Perkins (12/19/10 05:06 PM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/20/10 10:28 AM
174.144.163.117

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Anything short of a heavy support weapon should just bounce off the armor. Now if the infantry fire bypassed the armor through the many holes in the armor protection that mechs have then it could do some damage depending what it is that got through. But it still will not have done any damage to the armor plating its self.

When I say heavy support weapon I mean something that has an armor piercing exploding shell that is designed to penetrate thick armor plating.

Even mech mounted MGs should not really do any damage to another mech or tank. Its not that uncommon in wars today for one tank to open fire with its mashing gun on another friendly tank to kill infantry that are swarming the other tank.

Some of the weapons that you mention do have some heavy hitting abilities. My question is who is carrying all of the ammo that such weapons require. Today a four man heavy mashing gun fire support team, one man carries the MG, another carries a couple of barrels and some ammo, and the two other troops carry more ammo and some kind of assault rifle with limited amounts of ammo to keep the MG from being flanked.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!


Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (12/20/10 11:00 AM)
Christopher_Perkins
12/21/10 12:09 PM
138.162.128.55

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Quote:

Anything short of a heavy support weapon should just bounce off the armor.




Any Thing with a AP Rating of less than 5 Bounces off the Armor more than 50% of the time... The TOW and the Dragon (if they are SRMs) would have an AP Rating of 7...
BattleMech Standard Armor (Tech D Barrier Rating 10) isn't very thick, probably 1 mm for each point of Armor, for modern day, figure very rough equivelencie to 3 mm of Rolled Homogenous Armor. (third of a meter of steel armor = 300 mm penetration rating of 105 mm shell carried by merkava at time of writing | 30 points of Armor mounted on side torso of TOTBW Mackie = 30 mm = "no thicker than the thickness of my finger") Modern Day armor is statted in BattleTech as Tech Level C, Barrier Rating 7... What is the Reference penetration of the TOW & Dragon Missile? IMO Reference Armor, or Rolled Homogenus Steel Armor (RHAe) could possibly be stated to be Bar 5 Tech B.

Quote:

Now if the infantry fire bypassed the armor through the many holes in the armor protection that mechs have then it could do some damage depending what it is that got through. But it still will not have done any damage to the armor plating its self.




BattleTech Counts non-penetrating hits...
IOW a 105 mm shell that would have penetrated 300 mm of "Steel Armor" probably did 3-6 points of damage to a 30 mm thick slab of 30 point armor... but the observer (the maker of the sensors mounted on the Macke, and not the armor) described it as "no damage". As such, anything that is capable of penetrating WWII rolled homogenous steel armor of a given thickness will have an AP Rating of 5 or higher... and these will have high fractions (including 1.00, 2.00 or 3.00, etc) of BattleTech points of damage in the standard infantry platoon creation rules, and be used in an infantry platoons damage rating if the "hard and soft targets" optional rules are in effect

Quote:


When I say heavy support weapon I mean something that has an armor piercing exploding shell that is designed to penetrate thick armor plating.




What about gauss rifles?

Quote:


Even mech mounted MGs should not really do any damage to another mech or tank. Its not that uncommon in wars today for one tank to open fire with its mashing gun on another friendly tank to kill infantry that are swarming the other tank.




Exactly... this is why I say the only thing inaccurate about the BattleTech Machine Guns range is that it has a range at all... BattleTech Ranges are the Combat Ranges against armored targets... not range safety cone of lethality ranges or the range against unarmored "soft" targets.... (OTOH 7.62 mm AP rifle round stated to have iirc 10 mm penetration vs 20 mm of Rolled Homogenus Armor equivelent (RHAe) at 90 meters.... odd that figure... why is it familiar?)

Quote:

Some of the weapons that you mention do have some heavy hitting abilities. My question is who is carrying all of the ammo that such weapons require. Today a four man heavy mashing gun fire support team, one man carries the MG, another carries a couple of barrels and some ammo, and the two other troops carry more ammo and some kind of assault rifle with limited amounts of ammo to keep the MG from being flanked.




Maybe the guys i was calling "Assistant Gunners"... really any one not carrying a support weapon in BattleTroops could be stated to be carrying Support weapon ammo as part of his load... goes further into detail than is currently allowed for under the Role Playing Game
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield


Edited by Christopher_Perkins (12/22/10 08:08 AM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/21/10 02:48 PM
173.151.77.65

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Quote:

Quote:

When I say heavy support weapon I mean something that has an armor piercing exploding shell that is designed to penetrate thick armor plating.




What about gauss rifles?




OK, there are some exceptions. I was thinking of weapons in common use of today when I said that.

Its hard to think of anything as thin as a couple of mm as armor. But one would have to come up with some excuse to explain how you can cover something as big as a mech with such little weight in armor protection.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!


Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (12/21/10 02:50 PM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/21/10 03:04 PM
173.151.77.65

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Quote:

Quote:

Some of the weapons that you mention do have some heavy hitting abilities. My question is who is carrying all of the ammo that such weapons require. Today a four man heavy mashing gun fire support team, one man carries the MG, another carries a couple of barrels and some ammo, and the two other troops carry more ammo and some kind of assault rifle with limited amounts of ammo to keep the MG from being flanked.




Maybe the guys i was calling "Assistant Gunners"... really any one not carrying a support weapon in BattleTroops could be stated to be carrying Support weapon ammo as part of his load... goes further into detail than is currently allowed for under the Role Playing Game




That is still very little in the way of ammo. The four man team above would still run out of ammo very quickly. One can of .50cal ammo is only 100 rounds. With a MG using 600 rounds a minute that is very little amount of ammo. One man can carry two cans of ammo in his hands and maybe a couple more if its packed in some kind of back pack. Lots of battles have been lost just because the troops could not get resupplied with more ammo fast enough.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Christopher_Perkins
12/21/10 05:28 PM
138.162.128.52

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To penetrate (2 points) of Tech D Barrier Rating 10 Standard BattleMech Armor {possibly 2 mm thick} around a three dimensional shape with a surface area something less than 5 square meters (a Battle mech hit location) a weapon earily similar to a Browning M2 12.7 mm MG fires 63 shots within 1 second (note, could be a quad mount "MG" there is sufficient mass in 500 kg for multiple of this 40 kg weapon.. connection to a BattleMechs Fire computer requires an additional 10% of the RPG Mass for the weapon... so allocate 44 kg for each Heavy Support MG in the BT MG) (BT Damage rating asumes 1 burst per turn, alternate rules exist for faster refire rates for certain weapons on a per weapon basis - q.v. Solaris VII @ 2.5 second turns & MWG Solaris @ iirc 5 Seconds).

The Infantry Portable weapon only fires a burst of 20 shells, its BT Damage is reduced to the fraction published in TW/TM for the Heavy Support Machine Gun.

600 rounds / 60 seconds is 10 rounds per 1 Second Burst...
1,200 rounds / 60 seconds is 20 rounds per 1 Second Burst...

IIRC the .50 cal/12.7 mm Heavy Support MG has a native load of 200 individual "rounds"/"cartridges", and consumes 20 of them per the Low Damage TW/TM Burst.

Yes, that is a lot of ammo... Thing is, a Support Weapon is only expected to be able to fire 3 Full BattleTech Bursts per Game of BattleTech... if the weapons native load of ammo is insufficient for this, then the BattleTech Damage Rating of the weapon is nerfed when determining the Infantry Platoon's Damage Rating... a good example is the SRM Platoon that would do approximately 20 points of damage if all 12 Light SRMs (1 point - AT-4 Equivelent) and 4 Heavy SRMs (2 points - TOW/Dragon Equivelent) hit their target. Lighter weapons like rifles are expected to be able to fire 10 full bursts per game before they are nerfed.

Another Support Weapon is the Heavy Semi-Portable Support Laser that is the Infantry Portable Model of the Medium Laser or the Semi-Portable Support Laser that is the Infantry Portable Model of a Small Laser.... Due to failures in the BattleArmor Construction Rules (carbon copying stats for weapons that are explecitly incapable of doing BattleField Damage to their BattleField Rated cousins is not quality work - MGs are Easy - just increase volume of fire.... not so easy for lasers.. and missiles & Mortars??? :::shudder:::), It is unclear whither the Mech & BattleArmor Mounted Weapons are More Powerful per BattleTech Turn due to Fireing Longer Duration (using same power & Damage rate per time unit over a longer duration -- consuming more power per "shot" or "burst") or Having a Higher Damage Rate (using more power but the same duration... again, consuming more power per "shot" or "burst")

humm, i am more all over the place than normal.... hope i made any sense
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Christopher_Perkins
12/22/10 08:21 AM
24.125.16.116

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Quote:

Its hard to think of anything as thin as a couple of mm as armor. But one would have to come up with some excuse to explain how you can cover something as big as a mech with such little weight in armor protection.




well, 30 mm of BT armor provides better protection than a hypothetical 300 mm of reference armor...

with the same mass as Standard Armor and Half the protection, Tech B Bar 5 (possibly reference RHAe Armor) it is entirely possible that 300 mm of RHAe is only 6 points of Tech B Bar 5... humm, how many points of Tech B Bar 5 can 6 points of damage penetrate... need to look at the rules....
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Christopher_Perkins
12/22/10 04:33 PM
138.162.128.53

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Quote:

I think that PBIs should automatically hit. Its how much damage that they do should be considered, from 0 to there max limit. What is the chance that 28 riflemen would miss a target that is as big as a building and is less than 100 meters away!




For rifles... but the damage of each individually fired shell is miniscule, especially if its 5.56 mm pop guns, and when it's a burst fire weapon, it is not so easy...

5.56 mm/.22 cal rifle rounds are rated 4 AP, 4d6 (bounce under "hard targets" rule),
5.56 mm MG rounds or AP Rifle rounds in this range are 5 AP, 3d6 (negligible divot).

7.62 mm/.30 cal rifle rounds are rated 4 AP, 5d6 (bounce under "hard targets" rule)
7.62 mm MG rounds & AP Rifle Rounds in this range are 5 AP, 4d6

12.7 mm/.50 cal rifle rounds are rated 5 AP, 5d6 (hard target rated) or 4 AP, 6d6 (bounce under "hard targets" rule) ...
12.7 mm MG rounds & AP Rifle Rounds in this range are 5 AP, 5d6

20.0 mm/.79 cal MG Round is 7 AP, 7d6... this is like the only one that gets to 1 damage in 3 shots under the burst fire rules...
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/23/10 12:17 PM
173.116.46.202

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Even a 5.56mm round can do a lot of damage if it finds the right spot. With all of the holes in a mechs armor because of all of the flexibility that is required for movement finding a hole to exploit is not all that hard for a good marksman.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Christopher_Perkins
12/23/10 12:28 PM
138.162.128.53

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Note further: BattleTech Doesn't Differentiate between Sub-Calibre Penetrator Projectiles, Energy Bursts, Full Calibre Projectiles, or Exploding Munitions - Standard BattleTech Armor has Barrier 10 resistance vs Ballistic (Small impact), Melee (Large impact), Energy (Laser & Flame), and Explosive (um) damage .

The method i have used to determine of damage dealt with current era equipment is a known amount of MegaJoules delivered to a target area by any means divided by the surface area in square mm direcly affected by the weapon (i.e. KE of standard 12.7 mm BMG round divided by square mm of 12.7 mm diameter circle gives certain number and set equal to single shell damage for 5 ap 5d6, if this number is used as divisor for all KE / calibre combinations then the other rifle rounds come in with results commiserate to the formulaic BT Damage results for a single shell of a similar weapon that is already present in the RPG.

With one .50 calibre or 12.7 mm BMG standard BAL round set at the damage for a single shot from a Zeus Heavy Rifle or Support Machine Gun, then the SLAP round with a .30 calibre/ 7.62 mm sub calibre shell fired from the same weapon does 1 Damage due to its KE{(mass * velocity * velocity)/2} divided by surface area of impact - note, SLAP ammo is not present in the rules while AP and Explosive ammo are,
AP Ammo increases the BAR while decreasing the D6 (zero sum effect vs Armor unless Hard & Soft Targets rule used) and explosive Ammo decreases the AP while increasing the D6... (not sure if it adds splash)
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Christopher_Perkins
12/23/10 12:45 PM
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Quote:

Even a 5.56mm round can do a lot of damage if it finds the right spot. With all of the holes in a mechs armor because of all of the flexibility that is required for movement finding a hole to exploit is not all that hard for a good marksman.




The 5.56 mm rounds have rather low kinetic energy, and when using the metric I used to compare the 12.7 BMG Bal Round to BattleTech, the 5.56 mm rounds generally came out in the 3 AP 3d6 to the 5 AP 3d6 range depending on the round that I looked at. (yes, that is a rather wide range), which when converted from Mechwarrior/BattleTech RPG Third edition stats to BattleTech comes out a rather low Fractional Damage Rating, and this low rating is ignored entirely when converting an infantry platoon using the Hard & Soft Targets optional rule if it has an AP of four (4) or below. It appears that under the Current BattleTech RPG / Mechwarrior Third Edition & A Time of War/BattleTech RPG Fourth Edition rules generally, the reference/standard shell (Equivelent to standard BAL shell in RW) of an RPG Rifle & MG type weapon is published with the AP and D6 stats as close to equal as possible.

BattleTech Damage for fired weapons is a function of probabilities, average gunners, and general knowledge as opposed to speciallized knowledge, otherwise Anti-Mech infantry would have gained direct fire damage rather than simply picking up a method of attack. A marksman finding a hole would be represented in the rules by a Hit Location result of 2 with the floating criticals variation.

the metric for fractional damage has been in in the BattleTech game for as long as an RPG (or CitiTech, Which ever came first... or possibly even BattleDroids) has existed

Originally represented in Mechwarrior I and TR3026 as having to roll 2d6 result of 2 (3% chance) for some weapons to do a single point of damage, 12 (3%) for others, 2 or 12 (6%) for still others, and still other weapons were able to do damage up to rolls resulting in 2 (3%), 3 (6%), 4 (8%), 5 (11%), 9 (11%), 10 (8%), 11 (6%), & 12 (3%) (total of 44% chance or 0.44 BT Damage for the Burst from this RPG Weapon, IDNR Which one but I beleive that it was the Support MG?. (ISTR that Randall told me that they would look at this almost forgotten metric when creating the new conversions when Combat Operations Infantry Platoon Creation Rules were first being developed). This metric is easily converted into a percentage chance (harder to convert percentages back to specific results on 36 place 2d6 chart and get it to fit feal of original Mechwarrior/RPG First edition stats), and it is rather likley that a metric simiar to first edition BattleForce Lance Creation/Conversion Rules was used to create the first BattleTech Infantry Platoons Damage & Range stats from these Percentage Damages.
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield


Edited by Christopher_Perkins (12/23/10 01:46 PM)
Karagin
12/23/10 04:03 PM
72.178.75.99

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This is a game that shows what the future MAY look like, it is not a true to life sim or anything close to it...but if you want to play like it is...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Christopher_Perkins
12/24/10 01:53 AM
24.125.16.116

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No, i do my best to look at why the game is written the way it is...
If I allow for the possibility that they thought things out, then I am more likely to be pleasantly surprised than if i am constantly griping about the way things are written without looking deep enough into the writing & rules to see the true beauty of it all... :P
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield


Edited by Christopher_Perkins (12/24/10 01:54 AM)
Karagin
12/24/10 05:33 PM
72.178.75.99

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And digging in and then trying to convince everyone that this game is a true sim of combat and weapons doesn't make it fun. It is a game, leave it at that for 90% of the things that are presented to us, for the 10% that we can all agree that are in left field and make no sense, then yes please point out, they might be able to be fixed.

And given that we are talking about a setting with 3 story tall mechanized armored power armor with a single pilot fighting it out with other similar things, really digging into the underlying ideas and anecdotes is like trying to get the remote to fly into your hand from across the room, just because the Jedi do it doesn't mean it is going to work for everyone and the same applies here.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Christopher_Perkins
12/25/10 10:26 AM
24.125.16.116

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I never said it was a True Sim... but I point out the Choices that were made in making the game twenty years ago.

When the points of convergence are so heavily buried, it takes someone detail Obsessed to point them out***

It is not fun to watch people make claims that a simple spreadsheet using published formula run against published stats for both the Main Game and RPG can demonstate as incorrect. For things like range, it almost takes a leap of faith to go beyond "the Ranges are short because they wanted them that way, and any weapons that were brought into the game would be equally under reported and fall in with the weapons in the game that are loosly similar in type... but the More Projectiles Fired = Less Range Reported one is there to find if you are willing to actually check the assumptions instead of

Nor is it fun to watch things get codified or recodified in manners that almost reach the way that they were already written either through accident, ignorance, or (worst of all) intent.








***
Take the Merkava vs Mackie article in Star League Source book (and possibly House Kurita) who's sole purpose was to demonstrate the First BattleMechs superiority over what was (in 1985) the best tank that had seen actual combat. Heck, this was so lost that when the scenario was codified practically every easter egg in the article was completely and totally obliterated when the tank was rewritten from a tank first produced in 1978 (461 years old at merkava test) to a descendant that was merely a century or so old at the time that had missile based secondary weapons vs a Mackie that had a different armor lay out. Both changes serve to eliminate the reference point with the Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot 105 mm shell (300 mm Penetration) not penetrating 30 mm of its armor.

The Argument used for the change in the Scenario is the simple question is what in universe reason would they have to test the BattleMech against such an old tank... the answer is that the reason only existed in the real world... To demonstrate the superiority of the BattleMech over the tank that had just rocked the western world with its performance against the Russian tanks in the 1982 Lebanon War.

The Argument for the change in secondary armament's of the Merkava is that at the time of the writing of the Scenario Combat Equipment excluded Pintle Weapons from vehicles larger than 5000 kg (5 tons) because someone noticed the "free ammo" for Pintle Mounted Weapons (First unit of Ammo in amount of LosTech Stats included in weapon's mass) for pintle weapons misreading the native load of a Semi-Portable Autocannon (200 shots) as 200 BattleTech turns of 3 damage instead of 8 BT Turns at .75 Damage (1.3 BattleTech turns at 3 Damage / 200 BattleTech Turns at .33 damage {rounds to nothing})... (but then again the "free ammo" rule probably should not have included support weapons, to mangazine fed weapons like the "Portable" class of support weapons and not box fed like the Semi-Portable Class and higher). Thankfully the rule was reworked in TW/TM finally allowing the emulation of modern day tanks with Cupola Guns.
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield


Edited by Christopher_Perkins (12/25/10 10:28 AM)
Karagin
12/25/10 11:31 AM
72.178.75.99

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Again Chris if you want to play the game with real life rules and results then I suggest you use the rules for MicroArmor or write your own.

The game has very little grounding in real life weapons systems as shown by many things set into the rules of the game, you can tell us all how this or that should work and I will point out that this game is set up to be played on a table top, with a set range bracket thus keeping things FUN and limited in time scope, that is what it original did and still does. Now I too have pages of home rules and ideas on what should be in the game and while fun, in no way does that mean the basic game is flawed or wrong. It is a game bottom line.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/25/10 03:31 PM
75.36.32.225

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Quote:

trying to get the remote to fly into your hand from across the room, just because the Jedi do it doesn't mean it is going to work for everyone and the same applies here.




You mean a person cant do that! Damn and I have been spending my entire life trying to do something that is not possible!?! :P
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
12/25/10 04:23 PM
72.178.75.99

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If you get it to work let me know. Been trying the same thing for many years my self...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Christopher_Perkins
12/26/10 12:15 AM
24.125.16.116

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Quote:

The game has very little grounding in real life weapons systems




If you take the real world information, adapt it using formulas, and come up with a game, then the game is grounded in real life weapons.

Quote:

as shown by many things set into the rules of the game,




specifics are the basis of discourse...

Quote:


this game is set up to be played on a table top, with a set range bracket thus keeping things FUN and limited in time scope, that is what it original did and still does.




that is what i am saying...
only I look behind the scenes to see the why and how rather than just tossing off "its broken"
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Karagin
12/26/10 12:18 AM
72.178.75.99

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Great, hey jump over Heavy Metal Pro's site, and join the same discussion on this same topic there...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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