csadn
02/06/13 10:38 PM
69.30.99.182
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Am I alone in seeing the whole Jihad Era as a Gigantic Neon Middle Finger to any player who wants to run his own force his own way? I'm referring specifically to the "Mercs Are Evil", and "Mercs Are Getting Wiped Out Left And Right" memes which fill the era -- the ones which weren't squished by Deus Ex Machina's -- sorry, Devlin Stone's -- forces got squished by the toaster-worshippers -- sorry, Word of Blake.
I mention this, as I'm seeing more games which do not allow players any choice beyond "here are the factions you are permitted to play -- pick one". Given the ease with which players can now print out paper or cardstock playing pieces on computers; and the forthcoming capability to make minis; I see this as a sign that the gaming business is confronting the same problem traditional book publishing is with ebooks and PoD: Used to be, you did things their way, but not anymore.
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Col_Green
02/07/13 01:55 AM
99.9.128.106
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Sorry to say it but thankfully my GM of my group isn't using the DARK era writing...and he is modifing the timeline After 3065. No force has ever been able to do what the Jihad was suppost to accomplish. If anything I see the Clans re-unit under a Il-Khan and then push for Terra again this time NO hold bar style...Jihad nope don't care should have never happened IMHO.....just saying it left a bad taste in my mouth the whole W.o.B write up and I actually liked the idea of it all until teh Jihad writing... 
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Karagin
02/07/13 06:46 AM
72.178.85.122
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Things in the game setting have changed a lot from the original start of the game, where you could have your player group that had more freedom to a point, don't recall hearing about any player groups the conquered the Inner Sphere, and no there were no groups ganging up to wipe out mercs. You have the setting of the official background as a back drop which can be ignored or used. I have stated that for many who play the official back story is how they go trying to not stray out of that setting which fits to what your topic point is about. Others will say that no that is not the idea of things at all and your games don't have to follow the current settings etc...which is true as well to a point.
The local group of players either point of view works, BUT if you go to a gaming convention or interact on line you run into the folks who are all about the official stance or era, yes I know I have beat this horse to death before, plenty of topics here and else where about it, but thing is use what you want for what works for you.
The powers that be felt they needed to speed up the game, make changes that kept folks interested and control the arms race that was happening the game. I personally think they could have done a lot of the changes by not allowing the computer games to add things to the board. No new weapons, no new mechs etc...that would have stopped the so called arms race from getting out of hand. Then the rules, yes they are a bit odd in that they are dice heavy and slow. A short BT game can take a few hours if you are running more then two mechs per side, not very fun for the incoming players of today who want instant fun without a lot of mental thinking. So they tried to stream line the rules, not sure how they are doing on that since they copied the DD setup of core rule books after core rule books, but at least we haven't reached the Star Fleet Battles level of rule books yet...
Then the changes in business models of the companies that have owned BT as a property has led to the story line we have. Yes we keep hearing about how all of this was mapped out during FASAs last gasp of life back in the 90s, and there have been a few counter points to this by at least one of the authors, Keiths to name one, about how things were quite cut and dry as some of the current PTB and friends of these same claim. Then add in the big game changer, the internet as it became in the mid 90s. Things went from a small group on line to well everyone online with ideas and comments and thoughts and everything else about the game.
So my suggestion play how you want. Toss the Toasters and the silliness of the Jihad era completely if you want, or toss the parts that make no sense, like the nuking of Outreach, really the Dragoons were that big of a threat to WoB and their grand plans...or was it more of removing a group from the game that one or more of the PTB saw as out of hand a question that never got answered by the by. It's your game with your group, the rules and settings are there to help and guide, use what you want.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Col_Green
02/07/13 10:04 AM
99.9.128.106
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You make a few great points, yes all groups should play to thier liking. My only problem is that with MW/BT you have two completely differant play types. Unlike most board games you don't have two distinct types of play. On one hand you have the RPG MW aspect then you have players that like only the BT aspect. This game could be easily fixed by have two seperate distenct rules for each type of play. Although they tried to do it in the previous rules sets all it did was confuse the players as a whole, due to the fact the rules were mixed together.
The part of the Jihad...the Dragoons could have easily been dealt with. They swore to protect the I.S from the clans and easily enough they could have been tied up with the Clans after the truce. This would have made it simple and easy period. I actually for one like W.o.B. I just don't like them once the Jihad happens, W.o.B and Comstar should have been in a internal war for god knows how long, they could have spent 20 years in the war against eash other.
And it is sad that the new players these days wish to get right into the action without thinking or even reading the rules. I use to be like this until I got older and now I find I play the game 100% differant then the "hack n slash" like I call it play style.
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Cray
02/07/13 01:45 PM
97.101.96.171
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That's a weird interpretation of the Jihad era. Mercenaries proliferated (in high demand by any faction, WoB or Houses or individual planets); major factions balkanized (most notably the FWL); and anyone with a 'Mech was in high demand.
The Jihad gave more opportunities for new factions than any prior era.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Col_Green
02/07/13 03:38 PM
99.9.128.106
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It did give more opportunity for others; it was the way it happened. The way I always viewed the I.S was by a true feudal system. It is all about checks and balances because without it one house or faction would go unchecked. Look at how the history was written for MW/BT.
W.o.B was suppose to be based on the original Comstar background but got corrupt over time, like any faction or major house could. The other houses and factions would NOT have allowed the Jihad per and simple. Everything the Jihad was intended to help only hurt what it was over all trying to do. You can't nuke the major planets like they did were the major employment of merc units happens thinking it would HELP the situation. That makes no sense at all….it’s like saying i'm going to hurt it first and then help it and it will come back stronger.
I would bet my entire unit on the fact FASA would have never written the history with a Jihad….IMHO…however I know this topic has been a major discussion in my gaming group and killing off all the major players like Wolf, Katrina. Victor, Theodore, and the list goes on all within 5 years…not happening not in a true Feudal system. It is never that easy.
And just to be clear I have never been a Wiz Kids fan. Just wanted it known
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Frabby
02/07/13 05:00 PM
87.164.171.135
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In fact, according to the Line Developer, FASA had planned the ComStar schism and subsequently the Jihad a very long ago already. It's precisely the reason why all those Word of Blake references were put into the ComStar sourcebook.
Then the Civil War/Twilight of the Clans dragged on longer than anticipated and it was pushed back a little. FASA also didn't plan the details, such as who was going to get killed. But I think it's obvious that a lot of those Mary Sue units and characters had to go eventually, and the Jihad was a brilliant way to off them in a blaze of glory. In some cases at least. In others, CGL apparently simply had to clean house or choke in one-dimensional superhero characters. I positively approve of the Donner bombing and the offhand demise the Black Thorns suffered.
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Karagin
02/07/13 05:37 PM
72.178.85.122
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Yes according to the LD but as I said one of the main authors said they had others things on the table as well, yet didn't go that route. The Jihad was a crappy storyline all set up to rebalance thing more back to the 3025 era in the sense that the original idea of mechs are rare and prized items comes into play again aka the whole arms race brought on with the Helm Core being found and the Clans coming along. It was not well written story line nor were the hints all that great either since they could have been taken in any number of ways. They did not need to clean house the way they did, many other ways were available as many of the fans have shown with their own fan fiction. Then again challenging this idea of the Jihad has led to a number of flame wars and childish actions by many. Again a search of the archives will give you enough on that. The whole Jihad story line and the "clicky" tech version of the game with it's future history put a wedge in the fan base. Many folks left over it. The idea that they needed to clean the story up is a piss poor way to handle the fact that the rules and mechanics of the game had become to dice heavy and slow. A rules revamp was needed NOT a story revamp. They had numerous ways to keep things go forward without the Jihad, good example all the worlds above the truce line were fair game, the Clans had more room to expand upon in both background and forward as far as sourcebooks and other material. Same with the Inner Sphere, we could have seen Laio going out in a fiery death or Marik falling part from with in. WoB could have been a minor player but no we got super WOB with all the uber toys and whistles and the ability to have all of these bases and factions willing to work with them and doing all of this in a relative short amount of time, even surpassing Star Wars for silliness when it comes to leaps in time elasticizes. But as I said before I beat this horse to death and my opinions are well known and oh Cray you guys still have yet to full explain away the money spending and such but that's okay.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/07/13 05:42 PM
72.178.85.122
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New factions...unless we see new books it's same players with some new names...WoB/ComStar more or less replaced by the Sphere, four of the five houses still there, Clans still there, a new periphery player aka Marik space and then some minor power blocks that sit out in no mans land of known space...sure lots of factions that are still the same ones over all. I think the point the original post was going for is that some players feel that with the way the RPG side is handled you were and are feed pre-canned backgrounds for characters with the old life paths and such, granted the new version of the RPG tries to get away from that, more it seems that some players want things to be more GURPS like with the background story being just that back ground or akin to Traveller where you can have your pocket empires and still have the Imperium there to clean up things if need be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Col_Green
02/07/13 05:45 PM
99.9.128.106
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Quote:
In fact, according to the Line Developer, FASA had planned the ComStar schism and subsequently the Jihad a very long ago already. It's precisely the reason why all those Word of Blake references were put into the ComStar sourcebook.
Then the Civil War/Twilight of the Clans dragged on longer than anticipated and it was pushed back a little. FASA also didn't plan the details, such as who was going to get killed. But I think it's obvious that a lot of those Mary Sue units and characters had to go eventually, and the Jihad was a brilliant way to off them in a blaze of glory. In some cases at least. In others, CGL apparently simply had to clean house or choke in one-dimensional superhero characters. I positively approve of the Donner bombing and the offhand demise the Black Thorns suffered.
There was NO referance to a Jihad man please link a referance in any publishing of where they mention of global nukage...and the oringal write up of Comstar orginally was the writing of jerome blake...which is the reason why the splinter faction came to fruitaion. Because the W.O.B believed that Comstar lost it's faith of teh true way of Jerome Blake....no referance of global destruction EXCEPT maybe terra and outreach yes but everything else...come on man...no refernce in any of the orginal publishing....at leats none that I seen if you can link me a page I would be happy to say I was wrong.
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Cray
02/07/13 06:41 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
I would bet my entire unit on the fact FASA would have never written the history with a Jihad….IMHO…
FASA wrote the Jihad. It was part of a long-term plan for the future of BT after the Clan invasion. The first major event in the plan was the FedCom Civil War, then FASA was going to move to the Jihad. You can see the preliminary hints of the Jihad in FASA publications like the Comstar Sourcebook and Invasion of Terra.
But before FASA could get to the Jihad, FASA collapsed. FASA's writers were hired by FanPro (and later CGL), so it was under FanPro and CGL ownership that the original FASA writers finished up the Jihad.
Despite changes in ownership, the core writing staff dating to FASA days remains in place for BT.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (02/07/13 06:43 PM)
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Col_Green
02/07/13 09:42 PM
99.9.128.106
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FASA wrote the Jihad. It was part of a long-term plan for the future of BT after the Clan invasion. The first major event in the plan was the FedCom Civil War, then FASA was going to move to the Jihad. You can see the preliminary hints of the Jihad in FASA publications like the Comstar Sourcebook and Invasion of Terra.
But before FASA could get to the Jihad, FASA collapsed. FASA's writers were hired by FanPro (and later CGL), so it was under FanPro and CGL ownership that the original FASA writers finished up the Jihad.
Despite changes in ownership, the core writing staff dating to FASA days remains in place for BT. [/quote
Hinting at a Jihad? That is how you interpted the writing as I seen it in a differant light. As in the Comstar Schesm....I have the book and read them twice there is nothing in it that would make be believe in any Jihad...but splintering yes...I see that written in through out the book. Again please link or post me a referance you see Jihad or any indication that W.o.B would do anything of this scale and again I will be the first to admit I was wrong...Invastion of Terra is that a Novel? If so then that is a whole differant comversation. I have read many articles as well that FASA was split on what to do after the Fedcom civ war. Just saying I would be REALLY intrested in seeing what you are seeing.
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Cray
02/07/13 10:30 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
Hinting at a Jihad? That is how you interpted the writing as I seen it in a differant light. As in the Comstar Schesm....
Alright. You saw it differently. Those were the lead-ins to the Jihad that FASA was providing.
Quote:
Invastion of Terra is that a Novel?
Sorry, I meant, "Fall of Terra" scenario pack.
Quote:
Just saying I would be REALLY intrested in seeing what you are seeing.
I work with the writers and developers, and worked with them fleshing out the "Jihad Hotspots" books. I'm giving you their perspective as I recall it. The whole story isn't in print, after all.
The Jihad story did change between FASA and FanPro, though the changes were made by FASA's (turned FanPro) writers. When Wizkids picked up the FASA intellectual property, they wanted to amp up the Jihad from a shorter, sharper conflict to the drawn-out one that finally arrived, thus setting the stage for MWDA (which Wizkids was going to market while FanPro handled Classic BattleTech). There wasn't really an argument over the change.
Wizkids was owned by the very original BattleTech creators. The Jihad was outlined, written, and rewritten by FASA writers. No outside writers stampeded in to warp the Jihad. The newer writers - like me - were just following the outlines set by FASA writers.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/07/13 11:47 PM
72.178.85.122
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Yet was the outcome the same as originally planed given that Keiths an original author and writer on his web site states that things weren't going so cozy as you make it sound as far back as Victors little jaunt off to Clan Space to stop the Clans once and for all...or did FASA post Keiths leaving retcon things so as to cancel out anything Keiths might have said?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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csadn
02/08/13 03:29 AM
69.30.99.182
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"That escalated quickly...." 
If indeed the Jihad was planned out that far back -- and I'm not wholly convinced, personally, but that's another diatribe -- then it was about the worst-possible way to go about "returning to the game's roots" imaginable (unless the idea was to force players to Buy Product [looks upward, whistling innocently]). Why move the timeline forward only to end up back where one was; when one had some 1,000 years of history which had not been covered? For example: All the new, House-specific weapons could as easily have been put into sourcebooks detailing, say, the Star League Era and First Succession War (not to mention the decidedly Nukey nature of the conflict allowing for "high-tech alongside uppity AgroMechs" as things spin out really badly really fast").
And while "Mercs proliferated", they had to -- they were getting crunched like Doritos ("crunch all you want -- we'll make more"). How many of them made it out of the Jihad alive? Not bloody many. The message I get from that is "mercs need not apply". And feeding it straight into _Dark Age_, which doesn't allow for mercs *at all*....
(Going into the *incredibly* Poor Taste of having a "Jihad" in light of RL current events... well, I'll leave that one to individual conscience.)
I admit, I have taken an alternate (history) route (I haven't posted it here, as I don't know what the rules are here for that sort of thing); but I find it annoying that the game makers seem to think "No, no -- that's not how *we* want the game played". Show some respect for the people who PAY YOUR BILLS, OK?
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Karagin
02/08/13 06:14 AM
72.178.85.122
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No rules against posting your AltHis take on BT. Share away.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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csadn
02/09/13 03:38 AM
69.30.99.182
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Quote:
No rules against posting your AltHis take on BT. Share away.
Which conference would be more appropriate -- this one, or the Board Game?
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Karagin
02/09/13 12:40 PM
72.178.85.122
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The RGP section might be better, but either of them works.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
02/09/13 11:37 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
Quote:
No rules against posting your AltHis take on BT. Share away.
Which conference would be more appropriate -- this one, or the Board Game?
This one should be fine. I tended to post alternate histories to the MechWarrior RPG forum.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Col_Green
02/10/13 05:04 PM
99.9.128.106
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Im just saying that as a long term MW player with a unit of my own...and knowing the timeline that the orginal publishings and just re-read the Comstar book again last couple of days at work. There is only the fact that people within comstar arn't happy abou thow Comstar is going about there ways Spelled wrong IM sure..but anyway there was nothing that lead me to believe in a all out WAR against the I.S AND Clans...the Jihad would/should have IMHO started somthing very BAD for W.O.B if they did do what the did. That being said the Clans and I.S house would have made a pack and even for the Clans to have terra have the conflict to STOP AND DESTROY W.O.B...The Clans are Honor bound even ater 3060 to a sense that the Nuking of worlds is against everything they believe in as well...that being my take on it I just don't see the Jihad happening on the GRAND scale it happened on..I could understand Outreach even tho I like Wolf and his uint I refer to the not as a merc unit but I.S peace keepers for Nutreal planets etc..getting Nuked just because of who they are but the other planets..liek Solorais NOPE don't see it everything I have read up on that is the best defended Planet in the I.S it has W/S and a B/S defending it not to mention 3-4 wings of aerospace at time defending it not to mention all the visiting merc units on leave....sorry just seem to me the true Jihad contridics everything the MW/BT universe was based on as in using ANY Nuke or Biochem weapons is not only against the ARES convention adn you are automaticly branded Pirate it's against the I.S accords also which makes you Pirate and Rouge and a ****---- LOL...basicly you would not be welcome ANYWHERE the PEOPLE would make your life so hard on the planet millions of unhappy people and knowing what W.O.B did....sorry man I just don't see it AND now after what you said why the writers DID NOT put the Jihad in previous publishings made sense...would have killed the MW/BT universe and kinda did I use to know many people who played till the timeline came out and the Jihad...LOTS pf poeple left this game system DUE to MWDA.
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csadn
02/11/13 03:39 AM
69.30.99.182
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.sorry just seem to me the true Jihad contridics everything the MW/BT universe was based on as in using ANY Nuke or Biochem weapons is not only against the ARES convention adn you are automaticly branded Pirate it's against the I.S accords also which makes you Pirate and Rouge
That's another part of the problem: The Jihad is so obviously shoehorned into canon to bring the game we know and love into line with that abomination _MWDP^HA_.
If the writers really wanted to bring NBC into the game (a bad idea to start with; every GM knows: NEVER give PCs Nukes ), they could as-easily have published "1st Succession War" and "Age of War" s-bs. Advanced Tech -- put it in the SL Era, where it belongs. But then, these are the same folks who took something like 15 *years* to figure out the answer to the "what do we do now that Harmony Gold has told us to C&D" question which every player I knew at the time figured out in 15 *minutes*: "Commission new artwork, moron!". It's almost as if they deliberately take the stupidest-possible course, so they can whip out the smart one only after everyone's already given up and shelled out for the "wrong answer" product -- but that's inordinately cynical even for me.
Alt-hist may come later; I have Reality to deal with first. :P
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Cray
02/11/13 12:39 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
Im just saying that as a long term MW player with a unit of my own...and knowing the timeline that the orginal publishings and just re-read the Comstar book again last couple of days at work. There is only the fact that people within comstar arn't happy abou thow Comstar is going about there ways <hince the Schems> Spelled wrong IM sure..but anyway there was nothing that lead me to believe in a all out WAR against the I.S AND Clans...the Jihad would/should have IMHO started somthing very BAD for W.O.B if they did do what the did.
The problem with that line of thought is that WoB didn't just go, "Rarg! Me attack whole Inner Sphere and Clans at once!" WoB's threat and the Jihad were only clear in hindsight.
What happened is that the Inner Sphere was embroiled in about a half-dozen border conflicts from 3067 to 3071, with Houses fighting Houses and Houses fighting Clans and Clans fighting Clans. There were particularly large conflicts between the FWL and Steiner, and the Federated Suns started wars on both its Combine and Confederation borders when it was still weakened and drained by the FedCom Civil War (ended in early 3067).
During that tumultuous time, WoB was only poking and prodding here and there. It attacked New Avalon in late 3067 and was sent packing. It attacked Tharkad and then ran away. It made special forces strikes here and there, and absorbed more of the Chaos March.
People only really sat up and said, "Hey, WoB's being annoying to everyone!" around 3071-3072, by which time militaries were exhausted and key factories had been wrecked. At that point, everything went real bad for WoB and everyone ganged up on them.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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csadn
02/12/13 01:39 AM
69.30.99.182
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Quote:
People only really sat up and said, "Hey, WoB's being annoying to everyone!" around 3071-3072, by which time militaries were exhausted and key factories had been wrecked. At that point, everything went real bad for WoB and everyone ganged up on them.
Which was quite possibly the worst strategy -- WoB scattered hither and yon, annoying everyone in the universe; and defeated in detail.
"Only a fool fights on two fronts; only the Heir To The Throne Of The Kingdom Of Fools fights on *twelve* fronts." [Londo Mollari, _Babylon 5_]
That, BTW, is another factor of the Jihad I find Annoying. In my writing, I have two hard-and-fast rules: No Time-Travel; and No Tinfoil-Hat Mass Conspiracies. How many of those did BT end up with in fifty years' game-time?
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Cray
02/12/13 12:55 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
That, BTW, is another factor of the Jihad I find Annoying. In my writing, I have two hard-and-fast rules: No Time-Travel; and No Tinfoil-Hat Mass Conspiracies. How many of those did BT end up with in fifty years' game-time?
BT has no time travel, as stated in Strategic Operations pg. 134. The closest thing was an exotic suspended animation effect that happened to one JumpShip.
As for Tinfoil Hat Mass Conspiracies, BT's been using them since it was published, like Pre-Schism ComStar's great conspiracy to destroy human civilization, running from c2800 to 3052 and the Minnesota Tribe.
WoB's 15-year plan to destroy the Clans hardly counts as a tinfoil hat conspiracy. It was a military plan with moderate security success (most of the Houses knew of WoB's military build-up from 3058 to 3067, but hadn't figured out the intended application.) See Jihad Secrets (The Blake Documents), pg11-14, for a complete summary of WoB's simple plans and goals, and what went wrong.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Col_Green
02/12/13 07:01 PM
99.9.128.106
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Quote:
Quote:
That, BTW, is another factor of the Jihad I find Annoying. In my writing, I have two hard-and-fast rules: No Time-Travel; and No Tinfoil-Hat Mass Conspiracies. How many of those did BT end up with in fifty years' game-time?
BT has no time travel, as stated in Strategic Operations pg. 134. The closest thing was an exotic suspended animation effect that happened to one JumpShip.
As for Tinfoil Hat Mass Conspiracies, BT's been using them since it was published, like Pre-Schism ComStar's great conspiracy to destroy human civilization, running from c2800 to 3052 and the Minnesota Tribe.
WoB's 15-year plan to destroy the Clans hardly counts as a tinfoil hat conspiracy. It was a military plan with moderate security success (most of the Houses knew of WoB's military build-up from 3058 to 3067, but hadn't figured out the intended application.) See Jihad Secrets (The Blake Documents), pg11-14, for a complete summary of WoB's simple plans and goals, and what went wrong.
I have also read...can't remember where, a novel maybe or some un-official site that the True Jihad was the complete and total destruction and complete takeover of all HPG's through out the I.S AND Clans. Me I like this aspect better then the one that is written. To me and my interruption of the Jihad to me is what a true JIHAD would be. The outside political and military actions of anything outside the Comstar and W.O.B would no matter to W.O.B...which is the whole point behind the Schism....it happened because too many people in Comstar believed in complete control of anything Star league related and stay Neutral otherwise. To the other houses.
I do see and understand where your coming from tho and just wanted to let you know...sadly I can't agree with it and thankfully the GM has the Ultimate power to do what the GM wants to do. And thankfully my GM doesn't agree at all with how it all went down. ....You can play with that timeline but i sure won't play BT/MW if you follow that timelne im not going to put in YEARS of hard real time work on my unit only to know that I have a 90% chance of being wiped out during the Jihad...that timeline makes it WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY to easy for a GM to wipe out ANY unit they wish.
However I am a older player and getting owned by another unit that is NOT using NBC weapons..unless im Pirate hunting in the Pheriphy.....then I can walk away for it if my unit gets owned. Because then I know it was somthing other then a Alamo missle that took me out without a fight.
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Cray
02/12/13 07:44 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
I have also read...can't remember where, a novel maybe or some un-official site that the True Jihad was the complete and total destruction and complete takeover of all HPG's through out the I.S AND Clans.
Nope. WoB had no interest in wrecking all HPGs prior to the collapse of the Second Star League. After that, it was just a tactical maneuver, not a key part of a grand plan.
As stated in Jihad Secrets, the original intent of the Jihad was to destroy the Clans. This would achieve the diplomatic goal of making WoB look good to the Inner Sphere upon WoB's elevation to a full member of the Second Star League. It would also achieve WoB's philosophical goal of destroying a culture that made a point of focusing everything, especially technology, on war, which was a violation of Blake's words.
That was it. There's nothing complicated about the intent of the Jihad. The methods were convoluted, but so was all the lead up to D-Day.
What no one - least of all WoB - expected was for the new Star League to be dissolved. That led to WoB re-targeting its Jihad forces on the Inner Sphere in a crusade to restore the Star League. Which, of course, was a dumb way to restore the League.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/12/13 09:40 PM
72.178.85.122
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How so? Prior to the whole opening moves all we had were their silly add ins to the source books and some silliness between WoB Adpets and ComStar folks in one novel, then wait we had the no more novels cause of the collaspe of ownership of Battletech and then nothing, but wait if you joined BATTLECORP you could get all this official fiction IF you paid to join the club...I am not seeing any hindsight, if there was such a thing for the whole WoB attack then why did they need to run to Marik or even need the FWL to start with...and again the money, manpower, supply line issues have still not be answered, glossed over, ignored and half way explained away in the idea that well they supported this company or that company etc...21 years they go from small time fry to big time players who can topple whole states and blast the Clans to bits in their OZ...and everyone in the Inner Sphere is blind to it...right okay.
How do we know this? We have seen no printed novels covering this that the main stream BT player can get easily. We have NO sourcebook that actually tells us anything, we got a bunch of crap of typos and wiggits and wasted paper versus something we could use. Then the WoB pulls a Nazi like escape...with their Leader going down in flames, yet the hard core nuts walking away into the night. That is about all we have.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/12/13 09:48 PM
72.178.85.122
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15 years...right okay...hell even SW went with 300 years before the Sith showed up to challenge the Republic in the events of The Old Republic. But yet a group of toaster worshipping nut jobs can pull off a galaxy wide attack that manages to close off just about every loop hole or oddity of the past 25 years of BT history, kind of odd that eh...yeah okay and they can do this with only the other wackos noticing and the main Intel groups blinder then bat in the day time...NO Cray that book doesn't tell us anything, it doesn't explain things in any detail nor does it really answer the questions that keep getting glossed over, a 3 to 4 page write up doesn't even come close to answering anything or even telling us something that we can use...factories = Hidden Worlds and Terra. Money = FWL and Terra. Manpower = Hidden Worlds and Terra. Supplies and parts = FWL and Terra and Hidden Worlds. Training grounds and bases and such = Terra, Hidden Worlds etc...wow that tells us NOTHING.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/12/13 09:54 PM
72.178.85.122
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Really? How about we get a book that skips all of the silliness and simply tells us from start to finish about the WoB and their actions, none of the mumbo jumbo silliness we have seen in the Jihad sourcebooks. I have mentioned this before and no of you who write full or part time for BT want tackle it and then you guys are quick to defend what is clearly a sore point, more so then the Clans or new weapons, in the BT community. That is the part I have never understood. A company can plainly see that their product has hit a sore point with many of the customers, NEW customers are not coming in, in droves to replace the ones leaving and yet they continue on with crappy storyline. How many game systems have failed and died because of similar events? How many are hanging on by a thread? BT has a loyal fan bases, but again how many fans said enough over the Jihad and the MWDA setting? I can count for at least 15 folks, since I bought their BT stuff when they left and stopped playing. Now that the Jihad storyline has ended, would it not make sense to clear up everything about it and give us the actual facts and such without all of the "in character or setting" mumbo jumbo we got out of the Jihad Sourcebooks? Or is that a no go area and one that won't be touched?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Frabby
02/13/13 05:08 AM
87.164.170.249
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I find myself disagreeing with almost every point you make above. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion as much as I am to mine; it boils down to a question of taste, not of facts within the storyline.
A few points perhaps worth raising:
- I for one positively loved the chaotic news-style presentation style of the Jihad storyline, and I think I'm in the majority camp here. The whole tone of the conflict was set by this chaotic and desperate presentation, which is precisely what made it work for me.
- The Jihad was a uniquely complex affair, unlike the somewhat bland and simplistic conflicts that went down before in BattleTech. When stuff hits the fan across three thousand star systems (!), there is not always an explanation as to why things turn out as they do. YMMV, but I though it a whole lot more believable than the too-clean wars of the pulp fiction BT of the eighties and nineties.
Really, If I need to vent anger about unbelievable crap then I rant about the Clans, and even in their case the Wars of Reaving sourcebook went a long way to soothe my offended feelings.
- You feel the Word of Blake is over the top? Then what do you feel about the Clans? But really, there's scores of nutjobs out there in the real world believing and fighting for all kinds of nonsense. If you multiply that by three thousand inhabited star systems, I can see almost any belief getting a substantial followers base. Every mistake the WoB made - hubris, self-righteousness and spite in particular - is part of our real-world problems today. Nothing there that had to be invented.
Within the BT universe, you also seem to forget that WoB has been around for centuries as ComStar. They had the Jihad coming for 300 years.
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Karagin
02/13/13 06:15 AM
72.178.85.122
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Hey if the party line is what you want to support and take feel free. Thing is the WoB storyline has holes in it, they wanted a reset that was all, it could have been done a lot better and a lot less in the way of pushing people out of the game. The rules are want needs resetting NOT the game history or storyline.
If you like spending money on pages of nonsense and gibberish versus getting a book with information that can be used by both the GM and the players and is a decent read then by all means spend your money on it.
The Clans were over the top, BUT they had the time as far as things go to build their abilites and such, time like in 150 years or so to do these things, NOT a mere 21 years. The Jihad and Comstar are not the same thing. If it was the case then the events of SCORPION would have worked not failed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Col_Green
02/15/13 12:40 AM
99.9.128.106
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Quote:
I find myself disagreeing with almost every point you make above. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion as much as I am to mine; it boils down to a question of taste, not of facts within the storyline.
A few points perhaps worth raising:
- I for one positively loved the chaotic news-style presentation style of the Jihad storyline, and I think I'm in the majority camp here. The whole tone of the conflict was set by this chaotic and desperate presentation, which is precisely what made it work for me.
- The Jihad was a uniquely complex affair, unlike the somewhat bland and simplistic conflicts that went down before in BattleTech. When stuff hits the fan across three thousand star systems (!), there is not always an explanation as to why things turn out as they do. YMMV, but I though it a whole lot more believable than the too-clean wars of the pulp fiction BT of the eighties and nineties.
Really, If I need to vent anger about unbelievable crap then I rant about the Clans, and even in their case the Wars of Reaving sourcebook went a long way to soothe my offended feelings.
- You feel the Word of Blake is over the top? Then what do you feel about the Clans? But really, there's scores of nutjobs out there in the real world believing and fighting for all kinds of nonsense. If you multiply that by three thousand inhabited star systems, I can see almost any belief getting a substantial followers base. Every mistake the WoB made - hubris, self-righteousness and spite in particular - is part of our real-world problems today. Nothing there that had to be invented.
Within the BT universe, you also seem to forget that WoB has been around for centuries as ComStar. They had the Jihad coming for 300 years.
This isn't one and the same you are comparing. the CLANS even when there are now two types of CLANS they never left there own agenda...there main goal has always been enslave or peacefully take over the I.S starting with Terra....the W.O.B is and has always been the "dark spot" of Comstar. And the orginal sourcebooks have never "refered" the CLANS in a differant light excpet of the fact they are better tech/warrior's. And for the WHOLE point one thing remains FACT...weather or not you believe in the Jihad or not...what W.O.B does is plain and simple AGAINST THE ARES CONVENTION...and I.S ACCORDS...the plain and simple since the orginal FIRST sourcebook describes it in FULL DETAIL which is WHY NBC is not used within the I.S borders OR CLANS...again from my experiance as soon as the FIRST nuke goes off...W.O.B should have been burnt to the ground based on the VERY first rule sourcebook period...Jiahd goes against it plain and simple...Cray no offense what the Jihad effectivly did was tell the Loyal fan base that they publishers did NOT believe in there system...which is sad you could have had a Timeline that would have made old and new alike return...IMO
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Frabby
02/15/13 04:41 AM
87.164.181.61
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Shrug.
One clarification though: I think you mistakenly believe the Jihad was something the WoB wanted or aimed for. That's clearly not the case.
Instead, the Jihad kinda sorta just happened when ComStar/WoB's weird ideas about the future of the Star League and the Third Transfer didn't come to pass. It was just a complicated situation escalating into a free-for-all due to a series of misunderstandings and accidents, quickly reaching a point of no return.
All that WoB military might was set up to parade before the Star League powers before being set loose against the Clans; when the WoB were told (or so they thought) to stuff it, they tried to impress people with their shiny military toys which escalated into a shooting war. Add in stuff like internal power struggles among the WoB like William Blane being killed by St. Jamais over Tharkad or the Tharkad reactor going boom as an accident instead of by design (and the BC story "Eye of the Beholder") and you got your Jihad, with the WoB and IS suddenly finding themselves fighting without having a clear goal. It didn't help that the IS powers immediately used the chaos to launch attacks on each other as well.
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Karagin
02/15/13 05:09 PM
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I think it is you my friend who is mistaken, they wanted things BACK to how they were prior to everyone having all the new tech, why else would they go on their temper tantrum over the IS leaders figuring out that they can't work together for very long? If you believe they were going to hand over all of their stuff to the SL then I have this planet I want to sell you it's called Alderann...
Nice you are quoting a BattleCrops story, something that many of the fans don't have since a lot of us don't want to join a club to get the fiction which was up until someone at FASA/FanPro/WizKids felt that paper novels didn't sell, which meant shelling out more money each month for the privilege of getting the fiction and wait if you submitted stuff they might let it become canon...yeah great idea that. SO really quoting a bit of fiction that is not readily available to all with out the extra club joining is like saying well the secret decoder ring is only available with...everything up until the recent books about the Jihad did not paint ComStar or the WoB in any thing resembling such a gracious and generous group to willingly hand over all of the tech and equipment. It is also convenient that they just happen to have gifts for each house as well. But hey if you like the setting more power to you. Meanwhile some of us don't and still don't like it or how gullible the writers and folks at the different companies owning BT think the fans are to not see we are being played and again they had other options to reset the storyline but really what needs and needed to be fixed are the mechanics of the game not the storyline.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
02/15/13 07:02 PM
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Quote:
what W.O.B does is plain and simple AGAINST THE ARES CONVENTION
The Ares Conventions was renounced by the Inner Sphere 500 years before the Jihad began (the Star League rejected the Ares Convention when fighting the Periphery in the Reunification War) and renounced again 250 years before the Jihad (when the Houses formally tore up the Convention in 2787).
The Reunification War, Star League Civil War, First Succession War, Second Succession War, Third Succession War, Fourth Succession War, Clan Invasion, and all other post-2575 conflicts were "AGAINST THE ARES CONVENTION."
Saying the Jihad violated the Ares Convention is just saying, "The Jihad was fought like most other Inner Sphere conflicts." I mean, geez, even the touchy-feely Third Succession War killed more people in a decade than the Age of War (under the Ares Convention) did in 150 years, simply because the Third Succession War wiped its **** with the Ares Convention and fought a much more brutal style of warfare.
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...and I.S ACCORDS...
Which "accords" are those? There haven't been formal rules of war in force in the Inner Sphere for 500 years.
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the plain and simple since the orginal FIRST sourcebook describes it in FULL DETAIL which is WHY NBC is not used within the I.S borders OR CLANS...
Except when NBC weapons are used in the Inner Sphere. There was only a 150-year period where NBC weapons were rarely used by the Inner Sphere, the Third Succession War.
I mean, geez, WoB didn't even re-start the use of NBC weapons in the modern era. The Capellans used lethal chemical weapons in the Fourth Succession War against the Federated Suns, then the FWL nuked WoB on Gibson (WoB was the target, not vice versa), and then the FedSuns used nukes in the FedCom Civil War.
WoB was late to the game, and it hardly used the majority of weapons. Rather, the FWL splinter state Regulus killed far more people with nukes than WoB during the Jihad.
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again from my experiance as soon as the FIRST nuke goes off...W.O.B should have been burnt to the ground based on the VERY first rule sourcebook period
The Capellan Confederations was not burned to the ground for using chemical weapons in the 3020s, decades before the Jihad.
The Free Worlds League was not burned to the ground for nuking WoB on Gibson, years before the Jihad.
The Federated Suns was not burned to the ground for using multiple nukes during the FedCom Civil War, years before the Jihad.
And did you notice those were all detailed in FASA sourcebooks and novels?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
02/15/13 07:06 PM
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Quote:
It didn't help that the IS powers immediately used the chaos to launch attacks on each other as well.
It's odd how often people ignore that context. WoB was a little pinprick annoyance for years at the beginning of the Jihad. It didn't start the modern trend of nuclear / bio / chemical weapon use.
There was a lot of other things going on, but the most ardent objectors to the Jihad ignore the other nuclear weapons, the other wars, the other threats and demand that WoB, hardly the worst offender, be singled out.
WoB was singled out, and WoB was "burned to the ground," but that happened as the other issues fell by the wayside and WoB managed to stand out with increasingly aggressive - starting around 3070, years after the "Jihad" began.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (02/15/13 07:08 PM)
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Karagin
02/15/13 07:10 PM
72.178.85.122
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Wait hold on the nuke was used by rebels on Gibson against the WoB...unless there has been a retcon since Jim's novel...
Which the nukes or their limited use? They were used yes, but no one was tossing them around like popcorn either and how many got used on Outreach and other worlds? Just saying that things went from hey they used a nuke, to HOLY HELL they used how many in day or week or month on a single planet?
Also things that some forget what kind of nuke got used? Are we talking dirty bombs like WW2 style or cleaner ones like small tactical nukes? Now as to why no one is using neutron bombs is something I wondered about, I mean limited radiation, infrastructure more or less intact, just clean up the dead and move in your new workers...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/15/13 07:13 PM
72.178.85.122
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Right okay and again they attacked AFTER the WoB used false color attacks to make things look like it was one side or the other who had started the attacks to begin with. Funny HOW that is forgotten by some as well. And since when is a pin-prick of the WoB "gifts" landing on the IS capitals considered not a major attack? Oh right when the PTB say so.
Wait Cray are you saying that the Jihad started earlier then 3070? Since the last actual novel has us coming in 3067...
As for the others ignoring things, it happens, the current enemy is far worse then the last one or one from hundreds of years ago.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/15/13 07:22 PM
72.178.85.122
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The Word of Blake is over the top in terms HOW they got to where they went from minor power, who should have fallen further to way side or gotten asborbed by the FWL to major player. I have pointed out that based on the cost of the mechs as given to us the players there is NO way they could buying things like they did even with help from the FWL. Manpower issues again same as with the money, unless they are breding troops like Kaimions do in SW aka clones, they would NOT have the numbers to man everything they had. Supplies aka food fuel bullets etc...all cost money and need their own transports and escorts but some how the WoB was able to magically have all of this without the added cost of needing to pay for or defend it and when pushed on the matter TPTB answer, like they have always, they had Terra and the Hidden worlds...like that is the only answer needed. Yet given all the power of the FedCom which couldn't wipe out the CapCon the WoB can do all in 21 or so years that they do.
The Clans had 300 or so years to do what they managed to do, and while a bit crazy at times, Protomechs come to mind, and heavyily watered down if one believes the reports that the original playtesting of things caused mechs to be changed etc...things didn't work all that wonderful for the Clans. We didn't see them nuking planets, or utterly wiping out civilian areas, with one exception Turtle Bay, we saw they actually fighting away from the cities and trying to NOT include civilians.
And again the Jihad as you claim was coming for 300 years was not going to happen again it was in the works why did Scorpion fail? Why didn't all of ComStar and the secret bases provide the troops and warships to bring down everything then when it would have caught all of them off guard? And why didn't Focht have these troops to play with on Tyukiad?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Col_Green
02/15/13 09:05 PM
99.9.128.106
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Yeah I was wondering where Cray was coming from...The Jihad started the conflict of NBC warfare...according to those of us< myself-including> who don't have the <inside> story liek you say you do. The books does in little depth describ the I.S Accords...Ill look for it again and will link the referance once I find it. You have to remeber I don't have any of that other stuff you might have all i have are the core rule books and of course the house rulebooks etc etc...and the latest of books Tact/Starg ops ....but again you talk as tho NBC combat is prevalant before the Jihad? WOW..that is just stunnig...you would say that.....there are many descriptions within the rulebooks of what it truly takes to become and outlaw in BT/MW and one of those i you become a Pirate AS soon as it's found out you use NBC AGAINST civlian population dude. your right about one thing..you can use NBC against military targets which is STILL frowned upon..BUT W.O.B uses it AGAINST the population's not just military targets....sorry and no offense im piror military and im telling you...think about what your saying...I know this is a game system but good lord if you really think they Houses didn't learn FROM those previous succssion wars..then we REALLY are reading differant things...which I again I read the rulebooks published Comstar even the M.I one can't rember the name off head....and you do NOT see any eveidence of a JIHAD...all it goes into is how many people within Comstar want change...
Yeah also I agree with Karagin...Comstar had a big stash of equipment mothballed JUST for something like a Jihad...let me just say that I do understand what it was they INTENTED to do...I'm just saying it is very sad that they would have allowed it to happen the way it did AND in the time frame it took...it goes against everything I know of Fedual system and the laws of how to run a BT/MW campign...
Cray if you say what is true about the orginal developers...then come on man there could have been another way it was done...a better way more appesing to teh fans....just saying..anything then how they did it..I LOVED teh Schems...because I did for one belive Comstar was too string for the play style and teahcing of the orgnial publishings.
P.S I have been drinking and typing...hehe not a good combunation...me thinks!
Edited by Col_Green (02/15/13 09:10 PM)
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Cray
02/15/13 09:29 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
Wait hold on the nuke was used by rebels on Gibson against the WoB...unless there has been a retcon since Jim's novel...
That's what I said: the FWL vs WoB. The FWL citizens of Gibson didn't like WoB and nuked WoB long before WoB whipped out nukes. It wasn't a nuclear strike ordered by the FWL federal government, if that's what you mean, but the Gibsonites weren't "burned to the ground" for their use of a nuclear weapon.
Quote:
Also things that some forget what kind of nuke got used? Are we talking dirty bombs like WW2 style or cleaner ones like small tactical nukes?
Per JHS:Terra, BT's nukes are all-fusion weapons with no fissile (or even radioactive, pre-detonation) material, thus producing virtually no fallout unless they're used in ground bursts (where the neutron pulse will temporarily activate soil). Hence WoB's suicidal use of "salted" weapons on Terra (but not previously) was considered abominable and unnecessary, since it didn't bother Stone's Alliance nearly as much as Terrans. Of course, by that point everyone was trying to "burn WoB to the ground" for its actions in the 3070-3076 period.
And then the Regulans took nuking to the next level.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
02/15/13 10:05 PM
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I know this is a game system but good lord if you really think they Houses didn't learn FROM those previous succssion wars..
The Houses DID learn, and they did not use NBC weapons for about 150 years. After 6 generations, they started to forget. The Capellans broke out countless chemical weapons on 1 planet in the Fourth Succession War (see "Warrior" trilogy and the two 4th Succession War Atlases). The FWL used a nuke on Gibson in the late 3050s or early 3060s. The Federated Suns loyalists used 5 nukes against pro-Lyran forces in the FedCom Civil War in the mid-3060s.
If you define WarShip orbital bombardment as a WMD, the Clans (Smoke Jaguar) killed over a million Kuritan civilians in 3050 with a WMD, and Clan Ghost Bear was threatening to kill billions of FRR citizens ("destroy every major city") in 3051 because it couldn't handle rebellions. Again, this is old material: published c1990 in the "Blood of Kerensky" novel trilogy and the Invading Clans Sourcebook.
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Yeah I was wondering where Cray was coming from...The Jihad started the conflict of NBC warfare...
The Jihad did NOT start the modern use of NBC warfare. The Capellans re-started it in the 4th Succession War (which FASA published in the 1980s). Prior to the Jihad, nukes were used in the FWL and Federated Suns (1990s FASA publications). That's not an inside story, that's published information found in novels and sourcebooks for over 20 years in some cases.
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....but again you talk as tho NBC combat is prevalant before the Jihad?
No, NBC combat was not "prevalent" in the 31st Century before the Jihad. But it did happen. Between 3050 and 3067, a total of 6 nuclear weapons were used, and the Capellans used countless chemical weapons on one planet in the 4th Succession War.
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...Comstar had a big stash of equipment mothballed JUST for something like a Jihad...
That cached supply was exhausted by 3052, 15 years before the Jihad and 8 years before WoB even conceived of the anti-Clan Jihad. This is published information in Jihad Secrets, pg11-14.
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...it goes against everything I know of Fedual system and the laws of how to run a BT/MW campign...
Per the 1980s House Sourcebooks, which should be freely downloadable, the FWL, Lyran Commonwealth, and Federated Suns were not very feudal. Over half of the planets of the Federated Suns - according to the original FASA writers - had representative democratic governments. They used nobles to interface with the interstellar government, and might've had parliamentary democracies, but they were not truly feudal - and weren't so even by 1987.
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Cray if you say what is true about the orginal developers...then come on man there could have been another way it was done...a better way more appesing to teh fans....
The problem with "appeasing the fans" is that what a lot of the fans want fixed didn't actually exist, or is out of context. This thread is a typical case. Among the misunderstandings about the BattleTech setting and Jihad:
**WoB didn't suddenly burst into the Inner Sphere with giant legions of cyborg warriors throwing nukes every which way. It took years to reach its peak of Jihad activity.
**For years, WoB was a minor threat compared to the much larger conflicts around the Inner Sphere happening during the Jihad years.
**WoB didn't use nukes wildly (initially).
**WoB didn't start the use of nukes (or other WMDs) in the 31st Century.
**WoB didn't even use the most nukes in the Jihad.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (02/15/13 10:11 PM)
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Karagin
02/15/13 10:34 PM
72.178.85.122
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Wait Cray, you still have not answered nor have TPTB the one big question if it took years in planning then how did the minor player jump to the front of the line? Having Terra and the Hidden Worlds doesn't give them everything, nor does the FWL, again logical thinking or rational might be better choice would say that the WoB would have fold into the FWL with in the first 10 years AFTER they broke from ComStar.
Minor threat yes, but it seems hardly logical for them to even amass half of what they did, but wait they did. And you are suggesting that the AMC and the bush wars of the Chaos March region were the start of the Jihad...funny how even that would not account for the uber weapons they had or would be even testing without the Houses getting word of it and no organization is that good at keep secrets. Trust me I work for one who claims OPSEC on everything and fails well before they even utter the warning.
Didn't use nukes right away...funny Outreach seems to be the exception I guess. They didn't use most of them? Well I guess when you add up the numbers no, but it WHERE and WHEN and HOW they used them which counts.
As a fan I simply want things done in a manner that is not so magical and well chessy. I can suppened my belief in a lot of things, I am even willing to say the Jihad could have happen IF the timing was a lot further down the road like say 3132 it starts that would have been better in my opinion. But part of the issue Cray and I see that you are ignoring a lot of what I am posting but that's okay, is that we knew the outcome of the dance prior to anyone getting the chance to dance the dance, since we had WizKids shoe horning their Clicky Tech MWDA stuff into the BT universe.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/15/13 10:47 PM
72.178.85.122
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Also while the WoB did have the ability to cause chaos and war, they had to know that sooner or later one or more of the houses would notice that they were behind it all, and the idea that it took the IS as long as it did seems to be the one part that just doesn't make sense, you keep talking about hindsight and yet it seems that all the cards were given to the WoB and the House Intel groups and such were left with the empty box, which really turns things 180 from the way we seem them acting prior to the last set of novels and moves them into the dunce group of fictional characters.
I think the hindsight issue can be cared back to when FASA flopped and things were in limbo and WizKids entered the picture, that is in my opinion when they semi-muddy water became very muddy and things went out of control and there ability to project the events were lost.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Col_Green
02/16/13 02:20 AM
99.9.128.106
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Wait Cray, you still have not answered nor have TPTB the one big question if it took years in planning then how did the minor player jump to the front of the line? Having Terra and the Hidden Worlds doesn't give them everything, nor does the FWL, again logical thinking or rational might be better choice would say that the WoB would have fold into the FWL with in the first 10 years AFTER they broke from ComStar.
Minor threat yes, but it seems hardly logical for them to even amass half of what they did, but wait they did. And you are suggesting that the AMC and the bush wars of the Chaos March region were the start of the Jihad...funny how even that would not account for the uber weapons they had or would be even testing without the Houses getting word of it and no organization is that good at keep secrets. Trust me I work for one who claims OPSEC on everything and fails well before they even utter the warning.
Didn't use nukes right away...funny Outreach seems to be the exception I guess. They didn't use most of them? Well I guess when you add up the numbers no, but it WHERE and WHEN and HOW they used them which counts.
As a fan I simply want things done in a manner that is not so magical and well chessy. I can suppened my belief in a lot of things, I am even willing to say the Jihad could have happen IF the timing was a lot further down the road like say 3132 it starts that would have been better in my opinion. But part of the issue Cray and I see that you are ignoring a lot of what I am posting but that's okay, is that we knew the outcome of the dance prior to anyone getting the chance to dance the dance, since we had WizKids shoe horning their Clicky Tech MWDA stuff into the BT universe.
This is also somthing else that evades me....runing my little Battlion with support...has a payroll of almost 150 mil a year in BT/MW.....Granted a large portion of Comstar splinterd is says nothing of the there Military might when teh NBC warfare....and this hidden world stuff is a bit abursd....still cray you ill admit you have a good point on the orbital bombardment...but the Lio's Chem's....well they did it within there own house...I have never read of ANY Lio NBC attacks outside of there own House...and I never said a major power could start a NBC war...I'm talking W.O.B who is NOT a house they were a minor power....and became "GOD'S" within a span of lets me fair of 10 years....killing 3/4 of the major powers leadership AND succssor's...THAT alone isn't possiable man...not according to the History I have read...it alwasy seemed to me that during teh Succession wars when a House leader was Assassianed the rest of teh family goes into hidding and then 3-5 years later the current leader dies or surrenders...w/e....but in a span of 5-7 years W.O.B kills that I can count according to timeline...10 MAJOR leaders...what im saying is regardless of how you look at it...Houses do what they do and can get away with in W.O.B is or as far as I know have never been deemed a Major house with in I.S they were more a manufacturing military minor power after they took Terra..there are WAY to many discrepiancy's for what they did and how they did it...the orginal rules again about the ARES convention was a pack made between the houses after the 3rd succession war due to the technoligy collespe....plain and simple and any attacks against star league resources consutues Pirate acion and W.O.B when during the JIHAD DID on many occasions attack Star league non military sites...they nukes entire planets man..and they used more then 6 nukes...I would love to see the NON novel or community of writer's orginal pages in a sourcebook that says and I quote" W.O.b only used 6 nukes during the JIHAD" the destruction alone says and points to MANY MANY more..man..sorry...again I know what the damage of a Nuke can do....I will admite alot of what I write is based on experiance even though I have read teh rule books all this other insider stuff is somthing I don't have..give me a referance of what a player has..BT/MW published sourcebook and I will admit when im wrong
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Col_Green
02/16/13 02:24 AM
99.9.128.106
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And again sorry for the typo's.....just don't care to use spell checker/grammer..plus I have been drinking all day.
P.S Love the debate about this tho
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csadn
03/01/13 04:59 AM
69.30.99.182
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BT has no time travel, as stated in Strategic Operations pg. 134. The closest thing was an exotic suspended animation effect that happened to one JumpShip.
I know -- I wasn't trying to imply _BT_ had ever jumped-the-shark so badly as to use time-travel (tho' that adventure with the WarShip came annoyingly close); I was laying out *my* rules, one of which is "there is one universe, and one timeline -- deal with it".
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As for Tinfoil Hat Mass Conspiracies, BT's been using them since it was published, like Pre-Schism ComStar's great conspiracy to destroy human civilization, running from c2800 to 3052 and the Minnesota Tribe.
Yes -- and you have no idea how Annoying that is, esp. to someone who studies history, and knows how impossible it is to run a conspiracy for more than a generation or so. (Hint: Old Mafia Saying -- "Three can keep a secret, if two are dead." >:) )
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WoB's 15-year plan to destroy the Clans hardly counts as a tinfoil hat conspiracy. It was a military plan with moderate security success (most of the Houses knew of WoB's military build-up from 3058 to 3067, but hadn't figured out the intended application.) See Jihad Secrets (The Blake Documents), pg11-14, for a complete summary of WoB's simple plans and goals, and what went wrong.
I've perused copies at YOFLGS -- and as someone else pointed out: The idea of declaring war on *THE ENTIRE NON-CLAN INNER SPHERE* in order to get to declaring war on the Clans is the worst kind of unconvincing Idiot Plot ever conceived by a writer.
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Reiter
03/02/13 12:46 AM
142.11.67.185
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And the internet forum war debate over silly points of view continues. Let me solve the Jihad and dark age crap
"No suh, I dun know notting 'bout dhem silly Wobbies and dhem silly sounding dark ages wit dhem cyanobogs and dark colored divisions. So siree sir, I dun know notting 'bout dat craziness!"
/Tom the Cat comedy bit.
End of story. (<-- won a Pulizter for that written work!)
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csadn
03/03/13 04:14 AM
69.30.99.182
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Quote:
And the internet forum war debate over silly points of view continues. Let me solve the Jihad and dark age crap
"No suh, I dun know notting 'bout dhem silly Wobbies and dhem silly sounding dark ages wit dhem cyanobogs and dark colored divisions. So siree sir, I dun know notting 'bout dat craziness!"
/Tom the Cat comedy bit.
End of story. (<-- won a Pulizter for that written work!)
Ten steps ahead of you on that score, at least locally.
Unfortunately, what gets put on the shelves *is* "Wobbies", "dark ages", "chernobogs" (or whatever ), and "dark-colored divisions" (oh, by the way: I had to read that last one again, to make sure you hadn't just committed a *serious* breach of Good Taste... ), as opposed to product which Actually Makes Sense. And then they wonder why the company needs rebooting about every other decade....
And like I said in the subject line: It's a Random Kvetch, nothing more.
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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