Karagin
01/10/14 06:21 AM
24.243.178.124
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Hey Tigershark, the points come from the info given in the sourcebooks and house books, from the original books, NOT the reworked retcon stuff, so if you don't like it, sorry about that bro. And the info on mercs is the basic info that always been there, they aren't trustworth and they work for those who pay them. Try re-reading the books and then try reading some books that have been written about mercs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/10/14 01:41 PM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
Hey Tigershark, the points come from the info given in the sourcebooks and house books, from the original books, NOT the reworked retcon stuff, so if you don't like it, sorry about that bro. And the info on mercs is the basic info that always been there, they aren't trustworth and they work for those who pay them. Try re-reading the books and then try reading some books that have been written about mercs.
I have. The original books' "Road Warrior" universe is no longer fully canon. So there's no point in having a shouting match when you're using out-dated information to prove a point. Most players don't dig out a 1987 boxed set every time they set up a table. There really are two, different topics here: The mercenaries from the original universe from the 1980s and those from today's universe.
Mercenaries in today's universe earn large sums of money, especially with the advent of Clan weaponry. They had a system of creating bonuses for mercs, holding back an additional bonus until contact was made with Clan opponents. If the merc outfit survived the conflict, they were awarded the bonus. Most Houses also paid big money for the salvage rights to Clan equipment, so they made extra cash there as well.
Field Manual: Mercenaries, p. 20
Quote:
Most garrison contracts along the Clan Occupation Zones include compensation bonuses if the Clans attack, and pay up to twice normal rates for each month that the unit faces such attacks. Raids into the zones also pay double the normal rate, and most employers tend to be generous with command and transportation rights. However, few employers are willing to surrender salvage rights to Clan technology.
The same book (FM:M) also holds that some merc outfits are paid in advanced equipment, in addition to (or in place of) cash. The Word of Blake in particular made a habit out of this.
As for the original topic, as to whether a Mercenary outfit could field such an advanced design, yes. Many Merc outfits do have a lot of high technology in them, such as Battle Magic, Wolf's Dragoons and the Blue Star Irregulars:
Field Manual: Mercenaries, p. 47 (1894th Light Horse)
Quote:
The command also boasts two companies of Inner Sphere OmniMechs upgraded with Clan technology sprinkled throughout the battalions.
So yes, the design posted is not out-of-the-ordinary.
Edited by TigerShark (01/10/14 02:05 PM)
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Karagin
01/10/14 05:03 PM
24.243.178.124
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Really? No longer canon...funny I guess that memo didn't come out to all of us. And NO the design posted is something that an average merc unit would NOT have nor able to keep up. Nice try though, but if your table allows powergaming and players to have super tech then hey that is for you guys to have fun with the rest of us tend to be a bit more down to earth so to speak.
Meanwhile mercs will turn on their employer if they have a better deal going for them. And your examples are exceptions to the rule NOT units starting out and again NO command is going to hand a pilot who is reckless a machine as the posted design aka the Jimbo just to give him or her a new mech.
Large sums of money that is gone when you actually sit down and do the math, they have to pay for everything, food, clothing, medical, fuel, ammo, spare parts, office supplies, room and board, transportation etc...and that is BEFORE paying the warriors and techs. Yeah tons of money, actually no they don't. They break even if they are luck which most aren't.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/10/14 05:28 PM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
Really? No longer canon...funny I guess that memo didn't come out to all of us. And NO the design posted is something that an average merc unit would NOT have nor able to keep up. Nice try though, but if your table allows powergaming and players to have super tech then hey that is for you guys to have fun with the rest of us tend to be a bit more down to earth so to speak.
Meanwhile mercs will turn on their employer if they have a better deal going for them. And your examples are exceptions to the rule NOT units starting out and again NO command is going to hand a pilot who is reckless a machine as the posted design aka the Jimbo just to give him or her a new mech.
Large sums of money that is gone when you actually sit down and do the math, they have to pay for everything, food, clothing, medical, fuel, ammo, spare parts, office supplies, room and board, transportation etc...and that is BEFORE paying the warriors and techs. Yeah tons of money, actually no they don't. They break even if they are luck which most aren't.
I posted citations and quotes from a canon source. It may be your OPINION that Mercs do this or that, but you haven't posted any proof beyond "it's in there somewhere." If it works on your table, that's fine. But what you make up on your table doesn't apply to the rest of the world.
Point is, you're imprinting your own opinion of how things should be over how things really are. If you have quotes and page numbers to back up your claims, please do post them. But there's no sense in shouting down mine or anyone else's opinion when you've given no evidence to the contrary.
"It's in that one book someplace -- Go read it!!" is not a valid source. Just FYI. 
Edited by TigerShark (01/10/14 05:29 PM)
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Karagin
01/10/14 06:13 PM
24.243.178.124
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I wonder if Brion Legion would have turned out differently if they were run the way some feel a merc unit should run? Or the Cutthroats? Maybe Wilson's group would have a better chance at life...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/10/14 08:33 PM
66.74.101.135
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damn. Im gonna have to break out with the old tro. I believe there is a whole new mech line that is a modified version of the marauder that a tech was doing expensive mods to his mech, then started offering it for sale to others.
I agree that alot of players have more money the comstar, can make a mech factory on every world that pumps out large numbers of advance tech units, that should be curbed when discussing things with the rest of the world.
I still dont agree with your saying no unit would replace a valuable mech to someone that loses it, but do agree with the part of being reckless with it. That changes the whole story.
Some will try to replace a mech lost in battle. They wont do it with someone that charges an entire galaxy of clan mechs with one mech, on a glory run.
Guess alot of this is based on the proper terms and definitions.
Exceptions to this is units like Black Magic. They are tech/warriors that have succeeded and propered with making their own mods with high level tech. Team Bonzia is another.
Most mercs would turn if they were offered more money with other pressing issues, like being destroyed if they stay. A pure money thing, might work if its alot more money. A few thousand c-bills wont do it.
Hell one known unit to ignore a very lucrative deal was the dragoons. Returning to the clans might have made them second class citizens again, but would have given them access to alot more then the innersphere could. Granted they would be denied access to the highest end of tech because they were freebirths, it would still be better then staying in the innersphere.
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Karagin
01/10/14 09:03 PM
24.243.178.124
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The Dragoons changed their ideas of what it was to be Clan and saw that humanity wasn't as cut and dry as the Clan's out take tried to make it and in all reality the Dragoons weren't a merc unit per-say, more along the lines of the Condor Legion Germany sent to Franco in the Spanish Civil War, they were a test bed, gain tactical info and recon sites for the invasion if it ever happens and to find lost things of the Star League.
One thing, unless the SO book changes, is that the mundane items of life are ignored by the "generic" rules which focus on parts, ammo and how much a mech cost, the same cost issue that was ignored when they allowed the WoB to build it's army,and transportation all of which is where the money goes for the mercs, nothing about the cost daily living things like food, rent etc...those are areas that eat away at a unit's funds as well as the cost of keeping things running and then there is the pay for each member of the unit.
So using the idea that a owner/commander would indeed replace or repair a mech, how many times would he be willing to do so with a hot head pilot before the cost gets to the point of not giving something back to the unit? Giving a mech like the Jimbo variant to a hot head pilot who is willing to hotdog it into an entire Galaxy...yeah not for long would a sane owner/commander do this.
And while the mech does give the unit an edge, it is a costly one that doesn't really offer them something that gains them contracts or even a real mention in any hiring hall. Mercs live and die by their reputations and what they bring to the table, a one trick card, which is what the Jimbo is doesn't give this unit anything to bargain with or truly offer an employer. And even with changes to how merc's are shown in the source books, funny thing is there doesn't seem to be any major change, they are still ruled by the c-bill and how far it will go.
Also if a GM allows the player characters to get all powerful then in my opinion he or she has lost control of the game secession and really is doing nothing but stroking the players ego.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/11/14 01:13 AM
66.74.101.135
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The point of wob being able to ignore the whole basis of the universe is why i dislike alot of the canon stuff.
Good examples are kia liao allard and phelen ward. Both had skills above and beyond most characters twice their age. And both had the natural aptitude in gunnery. This made it almost impossible for them to miss a target.
The clans I can see from being a new menace. They had the time and tech to expand the normal things, though I dislike the steps afterwards. Alot of that tech should have been created before the succession wars. Heap rounds being one of them.
With replacing a mech, I agree they wouldnt replace it time after time for a hot head, but some skilled warriors are given the dirty assignments and lose their mechs alittle more often then not. If the warrior has the money to upgrade himself, thats fine to. Yes, not all mercs have a nobility background that can support their mistakes.
We had one person make the mistake of letting his players get to powerful. He wrote a whole new game to counter that fact. It bites having to do so, but it looks like he was up to the challenge.
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