His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/22/13 03:14 PM
206.29.182.205
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[Moderator edit: since this jumped off-topic from the Stalker - Jimbo thread, it's been moved to its own thread in general discussion.]
Question, where would lowly mech jock get the hundreds of thousands of C-Bills to be able to afford to modify a battle mech?
Now if he was issued a smashed up mech that was modified by the mercenary unit its self and not the pilot with what was available that would make more sense.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Edited by Cray (12/26/13 01:25 PM)
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TigerShark
12/22/13 03:34 PM
68.190.197.104
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Depends on his employer. Mercenaries are often long-time, contracted employees of a House or other major military power. It's entirely possible they'd receive the opportunity to purchase these items, as Mercs are seen as "front-line" forces.
Wouldn't make much sense to spend tens of millions of C-Bills on a Merc contract, then have the unit fail due to poor equipment. 
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Karagin
12/22/13 06:48 PM
64.134.226.50
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Front line throw away forces, not long term needing high tech systems. No house is going to give them the tech and buying it is far from an easy task for them unless the mech comes with it to start with. And given that most House contracts claim all salvage for the House yeah not seeing this happening. BUT for the person who allows it at their table it works for them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/22/13 06:50 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Question, where would lowly mech jock get the hundreds of thousands of C-Bills to be able to afford to modify a battle mech?
'Mech jocks are near the pinnacle of the Inner Sphere social order. A low-ranked merc could, quite easily, be a very wealthy noble. After all, personally-owned 'Mechs need very deep pockets to keep them maintained.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/22/13 07:16 PM
64.134.226.50
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Yeah okay a merc being rich...not seeing that one either. But again if your table allows it...given that canon claims they are making ends meat just to keep things going...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/23/13 01:10 PM
66.74.187.127
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have we gotten so bored, that we are argueing about fluff? Is there something wrong with the mech?
Now if the unit had great tech personel, and they had the parts from combat/raids, they could have modified the mech, or so goes the story line for alot of other units.
only thing that seems off is the armor. It looks a little light for an 85 ton mech. But thats not a huge issue. Also been a while since ive looked over the books. Might just be me.
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Retry
12/23/13 02:09 PM
67.239.109.174
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What's wrong with fluff? I like fluff.
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TigerShark
12/23/13 09:04 PM
68.190.197.104
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@ ghostrider, Some people care about the back story of the game. Some don't.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/24/13 12:01 AM
172.56.15.239
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Quote:
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Question, where would lowly mech jock get the hundreds of thousands of C-Bills to be able to afford to modify a battle mech?
'Mech jocks are near the pinnacle of the Inner Sphere social order. A low-ranked merc could, quite easily, be a very wealthy noble. After all, personally-owned 'Mechs need very deep pockets to keep them maintained.
From what I have read in books I would classify a lot of merc mechs would be stolen military equipment. For example the Eridani Light Horse everything they started with was stolen equipment. They had no legal right to the stuff they took to start their merc unit. There are lots of back stories of some mech warrior going merc with his mech because his house unit was dissolved. What house is going to let someone just walk away with a multimillion C-Bill battlemech? With how rare mechs are no house military would let a privet person own a battlemech since its of use to there own battlemech forces
Looking it from another direction why would a merc unit want something that represents such a large investment in one piece of equipment like a battlemech? Mercs are paid by the unit so the more units they can field the more money they can make. They make the same amount of money if its a 5 million C-Bill mech or a half million C-Bill tank. If they go with the half million C-Bill tanks they can field ten times the number of units with the same investment and make ten times as much money in the end.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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TigerShark
12/24/13 02:10 AM
68.190.197.104
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Assuming the Mercs can outsource the labor for trained crews for these tanks. You're talking about a Merc receiving a contract then sub-contracting out labor for several tank crews in cheap garbage that's likely to get them killed.
What would you be more likely to fight with as a Mercenary? -- The best equipment money could buy, or a WWI vintage rifle and fatigues from the army surplus store? Mercs are hired for their skills and expertise; they're not PBIs you can throw in front of your troops as a meat shield.
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Accords12
12/24/13 08:13 AM
151.224.106.178
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I guess it depends on your price range, and the people you work for. I mean, you are far more likely, with a company like the 3060s era Wolfs Dragoons or Kell hounds, multi regimental groups on big gub'mint contracts with access to fancy shmancy toys everywhere, to see custom rides rolling about. More-so than say, Poppa Hodunks Banditos, a lance strong merc corp, kitted out with rides that have no fancy toys and are held together with duct tape and dreams. That operate out on the periphery, and work mainly for local bandit kings and pirates, to lack the resources to do 'custom refitting' though I could imagine some modification being done out of necessities sake, due to damage, wear out and lack of appropriate parts.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/24/13 10:16 AM
172.56.15.239
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Assuming the Mercs can outsource the labor for trained crews for these tanks. You're talking about a Merc receiving a contract then sub-contracting out labor for several tank crews in cheap garbage that's likely to get them killed
It takes years to train someone to pilot a battlemech where he is component enough to be of any use. A tank crew can learn enough in a matter of weeks to be of some use and a couple of months to be quite component.
To show the years of study it takes to learn to operate military hardware in my games mech pilots are at the least a warrant officer if not out right a commissioned officer, the same goes for conventional aircraft pilots. An aerospace fighter pilot is required to be a commissioned officer. The commander of a vehicles crew must be at least a sergeant. A pilot of a VTAL is also to be at least a sergeant.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/24/13 10:22 AM
172.56.15.239
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Quote:
What would you be more likely to fight with as a Mercenary? -- The best equipment money could buy, or a WWI vintage rifle and fatigues from the army surplus store? Mercs are hired for their skills and expertise; they're not PBIs you can throw in front of your troops as a meat shield.
Thats odd because by the way the great houses use merc unites mercs are to be thrown into the meat grinder saving house units to be more conservatively used. Look at how the great houses responded to the Clan invasion. Into the meat grinder merc units where thrown by the dozens.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
12/24/13 11:02 AM
174.69.53.47
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Mercs are fodder for governments they are NOT the best of the best, some yes but the average merc is not an elite fighter. History proves this enough. Look at the folks going to fight in the Spanish Civil War, not elite troops in the International Brigade. The Germans fighting were sent as part of an aid package to Franco difference there by a lot.
Mercs would not have the ability or the money to keep their mechs at top notch shape and they would be even hard pressed to keep high tech equipment in working order. So again a mech being able to trick out his mech could happen but not with high tech weapons or parts. Sorry just not seeing it happen. And for ever rare time it happens hundreds of mercs make the average and thus keep these things rare.
Also mercs are all about money, they know their ability to fight is their selling point so they will not risk their lives, but their employer sees them as expendable assets to be used up before they betray them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/24/13 07:03 PM
97.101.96.171
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From what I have read in books I would classify a lot of merc mechs would be stolen military equipment.
How did the Kell Hounds get started?
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For example the Eridani Light Horse everything they started with was stolen equipment.
The Eridani Light Horse refused to abandon the Terran Hegemony when Kerensky illegally fled the Inner Sphere without the Star League High Council's permission. Then the Terran Hegemony disintegrated over the next few years. The Light House were left with hardware from a non-existent government. That's not theft like a runaway House-turned-pirate unit.
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They had no legal right to the stuff they took to start their merc unit.
Actually, they had a great deal of legal backing. See JHS:Terra's "Touring Terra" section.
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With how rare mechs are no house military would let a privet person own a battlemech since its of use to there own battlemech forces
Privately owned BattleMechs exist in BT. While it's an interesting question where they came from, they exist whether or not the explanation makes sense. Raising the question doesn't make them disappear in a poof of logic.
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Looking it from another direction why would a merc unit want something that represents such a large investment in one piece of equipment like a battlemech?
Try using the beta test Interstellar Operations' force creation and operation rules. There's a lot more to a force's costs than purchase price. Energy-armed 'Mechs can be very attractive.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
12/24/13 07:08 PM
97.101.96.171
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Yeah okay a merc being rich...not seeing that one either. But again if your table allows it...given that canon claims they are making ends meat just to keep things going...
Sure, most merc forces fail quickly. It's hard to find an employer who will pay the fortune a merc force requires. But when you do, you get paid not just salaries (which have always been a trivial share of a merc force's operating costs), but maintenance, supply, repair, and transport costs. Those add up. If you get a garrison job lasting a couple of years with little to no combat, you can get rich pretty quickly.
Or you can get a few hard battles, lose a lot of 'Mechs, and need tens of millions of C-bills of repairs / replacements that bankrupt you.
See Mercenary Handbook, Mercenary Handbook 2, or the (still available) free beta-test Interstellar Operations force creation and operation rules.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/25/13 01:54 AM
172.56.15.239
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From what I have read in books I would classify a lot of merc mechs would be stolen military equipment.
How did the Kell Hounds get started?
They bought it. Now where they bought it is not said. Who knows where the people they hired got the stuff they had. They could have abandoned there post and took military hardware with them
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For example the Eridani Light Horse everything they started with was stolen equipment.
The Eridani Light Horse refused to abandon the Terran Hegemony when Kerensky illegally fled the Inner Sphere without the Star League High Council's permission. Then the Terran Hegemony disintegrated over the next few years. The Light House were left with hardware from a non-existent government. That's not theft like a runaway House-turned-pirate unit.
Who said anything about Kerensky?
They are guilty of refusing a legal order from command and turned pirates for hire. Just because the writers gave them a feel good fuzzy felling that does not mean what they did was legal. They had the legal responsibility to the High Council and who ever the the Council put in command of them. They did not do that they decided to take property that belonged to the Star League Defense Force and to go pirate and hire them self's out to the highest bidder.
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They had no legal right to the stuff they took to start their merc unit.
Actually, they had a great deal of legal backing. See JHS:Terra's "Touring Terra" section.
Yes they where a powerful force to be reckoned with and it was more politically sound to use them than to crush them for treason. That does not mean what they did was legal.
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With how rare mechs are no house military would let a privet person own a battlemech since its of use to there own battlemech forces
Privately owned BattleMechs exist in BT. While it's an interesting question where they came from, they exist whether or not the explanation makes sense. Raising the question doesn't make them disappear in a poof of logic.
Yes I know, logic has no place in BT. I have been reminded about that lots of times. I cant help that I have to see the logic in things and cant just say, "Oh we will just forget that goes against logic so we will go with that."
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Looking it from another direction why would a merc unit want something that represents such a large investment in one piece of equipment like a battlemech?
There's a lot more to a force's costs than purchase price. Energy-armed 'Mechs can be very attractive.
Yes like how costly advanced technology is to repair and to keep operational like a battlemech. Where a tank with its lower technology that makes it easier to manufacture or find spare parts.
I doubt most people have any clue of what it really takes to keep any large organization operational. The bigger the organization the more pencil pushers it needs just to get anything done.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Rotwang
12/25/13 11:40 AM
94.227.126.162
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Here's how I see it.
In de Dark Age era, Mechs have been "phased out" in favour of conventional forces. Mechs are rare, but this doesn't mean there is no demand for them. Small units like the Irregulars could be very profitable if they get the right kind of jobs that favour mechs. They probably wouldn't be doing long boring garrison duties like many mercs in the 31st century, they would be active assets with corresponding danger pay.
Irregular Mechwarriors come in two types, those who own their mech and those who are provided a mech by the unit. In case a mech is lost either the owner buys a new one if they have the money for it or the unit procures a new machine as a replacement with an option to buy later if they so desire.
The Irregulars have mostly 3050 era tech, about half being post-Clan Invasion designs (3050-3100), the others being refits of succession war era machines, with the older mechs being put in storage as they are replaced by newer ones. Because so many mechs have been taken out of service, parts should be cheap and abundant and any smart commander would snap up as much as possible. In an era where new mechs are rare and expensive (this is a period when people are duct-taping guns and missiles to dump trucks and combine harvesters) it would be wise for any unit to hang onto some older machines for rapid replacements. In the case of the Irregulars they have two mechs, and are forced to use one to replace their most powerful mech.
In this case Jimbo gets a new mech to replace the one he lost. To make sure it remains a viable machine he opts to upgrade the armament with the popular MML launcher (remember that it was designed by mercs as a cheaper option to separate LRM and SRM launchers) and to give his mech some extra punch he opts for a Heavy PPC, a somewhat less common and expensive item, but it's not like you're trying to steal the Coordinator's personal Katana from his bedroom either. There is no real room for further upgrades other than double heat sinks and a half ton extra armour plate.
A unit like the Irregular would probably be doing extremely well during the Dark Age as everybody is scrambling to field anything that can fight and a merc unit that provides its own kit is certain to get premium pay for the next few years. And they will need it if they need to build up enough spare mechs to keep the unit going until mech production catches up with demand.
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Cray
12/25/13 01:14 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
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From what I have read in books I would classify a lot of merc mechs would be stolen military equipment.
How did the Kell Hounds get started?
They bought it. Now where they bought it is not said. Who knows where the people they hired got the stuff they had. They could have abandoned there post and took military hardware with them
That is not the Kell Hounds' story. The source of their funds and 'Mechs are elaborately described in fiction, complete with the politicians backing them.
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The Eridani Light Horse refused to abandon the Terran Hegemony when Kerensky illegally fled the Inner Sphere without the Star League High Council's permission. Then the Terran Hegemony disintegrated over the next few years. The Light House were left with hardware from a non-existent government. That's not theft like a runaway House-turned-pirate unit.
Who said anything about Kerensky?
Whoever is considering the legal situation at the end of the first Star League needs to say something about Big Al. The potential powers for the Light Horse were:
1) The Emperor and Director General, Stephen Amaris
2) The Protector, Kerensky
3) The High Council
Of those, the Eridani Light Horse took orders from Kerensky throughout the Star League Civil War, though that's legally dubious. The alternative was Emperor Amaris, who was legally elected as Director General by the population of the Terran Hegemony but didn't meet the Star League Accords' requirements to be First Lord because he wasn't a Cameron (hence, he styled himself as Emperor, a legally dubious proposition). The only de jure authority of the three was the High Council, but that looked the other way and gave no guidance to the Light Horse during the Civil War, hence the preference for Kerensky.
After the Star League Civil War and Amaris's death, Kerensky was stripped of his title of Protector by the High Council, but then the High Council gave no other orders to the SLDF (including the Light Horse). Then the Council disbanded itself and attacked the Terran Hegemony.
In summary, the Eridani Light Horse could have:
1) Obeyed a general who waged an unlawful civil war against his sovereign, or
2) Obeyed an Emperor who was not necessarily legally entitled to rule the Light Horse, or
3) Obeyed the High Council who gave no orders to the Light Horse before disbanding
This left the Eridani Light Horse as a legal isolate. It decided to ignore the illegal orders of Kerensky to abandon the Terran Hegemony and, instead, obeyed the remains of the Hegemony (even though it was an SLDF unit, not a Hegemony militia unit). Shortly thereafter, the Hegemony was destroyed.
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There's a lot more to a force's costs than purchase price. Energy-armed 'Mechs can be very attractive.
Yes like how costly advanced technology is to repair and to keep operational like a battlemech. Where a tank with its lower technology that makes it easier to manufacture or find spare parts.
That's reflected in the force creation rules of IO. Have you read them yet, and the extensive beta-testing feedback? That's all free and online.
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I doubt most people have any clue of what it really takes to keep any large organization operational. The bigger the organization the more pencil pushers it needs just to get anything done.
That's also reflected in the IO rules, and preceding Merc 2 rules. One of the advantages of playing a government force under the Interstellar Operations rules is bean counting aid from the rest of the government.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
12/25/13 01:57 PM
66.74.187.127
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First, not all of the units in the kell hounds where purchased. In the fluff they talk about a merc getting his marauder refurbished and having one of the owners punch him.
Second, most merc units get combat bonuses for doing their jobs. It could be simply a days pay to actual salvage from the battlefield. If done right, that recon lance of light mechs went down quickly to like legs missing, or even surrender. Lots of money from that.
Third, mech operating costs are more then just weapons, otherwise those same weapons that are used on tanks, would drive up their maintanence costs. The way the mech moves and such causes alot of the costs.
Fourth, how did this thread get so far off course? I think it should be moved to another thread.
Fifth, there are alot of merc units that failed to follow orders. Most arent the large units like the light horse, or even the wolf dragoons. Yes, they stopped following clan orders. Hell, look at all the pirate kings. Now thats stolen. The black thorns has a stolen raven mech in the unit.
and last, guessing most people havent dealt with the financial aspect of running units. The cost of resupply, plus just getting it there without shipments going missing, having a unit hit their supplies or things like that seem to be missing. Yes, for most, that is a very boring aspect, but if they had to spend alot of money dealing with those things, the game would have alot less ammo units. They even have damage that cannt be fixed. Not every supply depot hit will have 100 tons of ferrous fibre armor, or the ultra ammo/mml ammo. Even an engine hit may lead to not being fixed until the next behind the scenes refit. Having things like this tend to make people lose interest. Cannt do an alpha strike when the engine is adding 5/10 heatpoints for just being on.
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Rotwang
12/25/13 06:14 PM
94.227.126.162
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If we look at history we see that after D-Day the Allies can afford to throw tanks into battle with almost careless abandon as for every Sherman in the field there are many more in reserve, ready to be sent in to fill the gaps in the ranks, whereas the Germans have almost zero reserves, every tank that is lost, stays lost and their Panzer units are slowly ground away.
The situation for a small merc unit could be very dramatic if they get cornered and lose more than one or two mechs at a time. Yet battles with up to 90% casualties are not unheard of in the BT universe. How many units in the canon get wiped out to a man and are back in business a few years later ?
And then there is salvage, in my experience the average BT game leaves a lot of salvageable equipment and mechs after a fight. If anything turnover in a merc unit could be pretty high as even a small % of mechs are lost in a fight, salvage and the purchase of new machines would mean that over time a company would look very different after a few years of fighting, there is no way that a unit as per the old FASA scenario books could go through all the scenarios and would have the same exact lineup at the end.
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Karagin
12/26/13 12:50 AM
174.69.53.47
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HOW did he get the mech? Why would his boss give him another one? He just lost an expensive machine so really WHO would trust him with another?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/26/13 10:17 AM
66.74.187.127
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You forget the scenario. You take a light mech and hold off an assault lance for 2 hours allowing the unit to retreat, and you can bet the co will get you another mech, especially if you took down one or more enemy units. Hell, this is how alot of people become friends with nobility. They hold the enemy while the noble runs. If you survive, they tend to do nice things like give you expensive toys at the tax payers expense.
Now with casualties, that does not mean the units were completely destroyed. Just being put down so they dont work, but can be repaired is a casualty. Also some employers guarantee replacement for certain jobs. Not all house screw mercs over. Some raids have replacement clauses as well as some assaults, like diversions.
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Karagin
12/26/13 10:37 AM
174.69.53.47
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True but most don't. And while he might have done an amazing thing, many are not going to let him do it again since his actions tend to drive up the overhead.
Still if folks allow it in their games then hey all is good.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/26/13 12:37 PM
172.56.17.65
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Hell, this is how alot of people become friends with nobility. They hold the enemy while the noble runs. If you survive, they tend to do nice things like give you expensive toys at the tax payers expense.
Most nobles would be grateful for their own hides but I doubt that they would reward the guy that held off the enemy off wail they ran with much of anything.
I would not put it pass the noble to have the guy shot so the noble could claim that he acted with great bravely during the battle and did not run like a coward.
The ones that would reword the guy would most likely just give the guy a metal. Giving out metals cost little to the noble and nothing to the state but people like them because it gives them bragging rights. Nobles do have to justify giving away state funds so they are unlikely to do so because it costs them political favors to do so.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
12/26/13 01:36 PM
71.47.122.85
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Fourth, how did this thread get so far off course? I think it should be moved to another thread.
Done.
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First, not all of the units in the kell hounds where purchased.
That's correct. I was addressing origins of the Kell Hounds, not their subsequent career and 'Mech acquisitions.
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Second, most merc units get combat bonuses for doing their jobs.
Which rule book and what page say that? The rules in Mercenaries Handbook, Field Report: Mercenaries, and Interstellar Operations budget things differently.
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Third, mech operating costs are more then just weapons, otherwise those same weapons that are used on tanks, would drive up their maintanence costs. The way the mech moves and such causes alot of the costs.
Yes, I know. That's stated quite clearly in prior merc handbooks, and brought out in detail in the new Interstellar Operations draft rules for force operations. Did you have a particular page in the IntOps rules (force creation and operation) that brought out operating costs most clearly?
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/board,84.0.html
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and last, guessing most people havent dealt with the financial aspect of running units. The cost of resupply, plus just getting it there without shipments going missing, having a unit hit their supplies or things like that seem to be missing. Yes, for most, that is a very boring aspect, but if they had to spend alot of money dealing with those things, the game would have alot less ammo units.
The Interstellar Operations draft rules bring that issue to the fore.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (12/26/13 01:44 PM)
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ghostrider
12/27/13 12:25 AM
66.74.187.127
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I was trying to back you up on the fact new mech units dont always buy the mechs in it. More then a few are nothing more then units that disbanded for one reason or another.
At this time, I cannt remember where they had the combat bonuses, but it was part of a contract negotiations. It went thru a whole process of making one up. I wanna say its in the mercs operational handbook. Think it was the original one that came out, but wont swear by it. It also had some of the basic operations cost, but very generic.
One company that would replace mechs lost in battle would be defiance's main factory unit on Hesperous(sp). To keep from having their production lines damage, they would gladly replace defenders mechs, as long as they prove or show a good reason to have lost it.
Some of this could be argued with any war. Im sure Rommel and Patton lost the tanks they served in a couple of times. It happens.
No offense, but i doubt i will get the new books. In my opinion, the newer stuff is nothing more then making huge amounts of damage and confusion just to make it look good. What is the difference between doing 1 point or 10000 points when the armor is adjusted to compensate? It requires x amount of hits weither its 1 point or 10000.
Enemy has lasers. Use aerosol to disperse it. Using ppcs, lots of spikes in the ground to ground the shot. Missles, use lots of chaff to break targetting locks. yadda yadda. Why not drop bombs from orbit and be done with it. Or large rockets from orbit. Wipe out defender.
Hell, start using mass drivers and use asteroids, turn into meteors, and wipe out the installations. Even if they splinter as they come down, the rain of debris should take out some of the defenders. It gets to the point of why bother?
I like the older versions where it was a hell of alot better balanced.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/27/13 12:42 AM
206.29.182.159
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One company that would replace mechs lost in battle would be defiance's main factory unit on Hesperous(sp). To keep from having their production lines damage, they would gladly replace defenders mechs, as long as they prove or show a good reason to have lost it.
Some of this could be argued with any war. Im sure Rommel and Patton lost the tanks they served in a couple of times. It happens.
Hesperous and Defiance Industries is defended by house unites. Mercs cant be trusted with something so valuable and escentual to its rightful owners House Davion of the The Federated Sun. The only problem is that House Steiner of the Lyran Commonwealth is who controls it. =(
What do you mean I'm biased!?! =P
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (12/27/13 12:49 AM)
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Karagin
12/27/13 12:49 AM
174.69.53.47
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The contract stuff was in the original Merc Handbook from the old days of the 3025 era time frame, and it spelled out what mercs got etc...
And I do agree it does seem that many don't get the part that it cost money to repair things and getting the parts for a merc unit will not be easy or cheap. But that doesn't stop things and it really seems that the PTB have forgotten that as well since every thing in the fiction, well the pay to read fiction from the Battlecrops website, has mercs getting what they need and no mention of what it truly set the unit back or what wasn't gotten to replace Jimbos damaged parts. And yet we are expected to believe that a new book will fix things and give us a perfect table and charts and diagrams to show folks how to do something that was already in the game to start with...yeah not seeing that either.
As for a company giving a merc unit spare parts for free...yeah no that will not happen ever. They gain nothing from it and a company like Defiance or any other mech builder on Hesperus can afford to have good contracts that leave them from having to pay anything to anyone they don't want to pay. Kind of like expecting the Dragoons to work for free...or any other merc unit to not take payment of some kind, it won't happen. Mercs are out to make money, and the ones who claim to be fighting for a cause are the ones who are dead far often then not.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/27/13 12:41 PM
66.74.187.127
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the canon product macarrons armored cavalry, think the first one, actually has one of the scenarios built around not recieving supplies. They actually hit defiance, though one of the smaller support factories for defiance.
Also, grey death legion has a romp at guarding the main factories from the 3rd davion guards if i recall, as the civil war starts. Not only is it in fiction, but i believe the 2nd scenario pack deals with them as well.
In the wolf and the dragon book it mentions combat bonuses during a raid on the eridini light horse. Think wolf pack deals with davion making promises to reimburse the dragoons with units, but didnt replace everything they said they would.
More then a few scenarios that are canon have damaged units, and some of them even talk about being given replacement mechs for ones they lost.
Now I do agree. They would not replace units that were lost to stupidity. Attacking an assault company with a single mech, just to show how good you are wouldnt get you a new mech when its over.
And last for now, there are alot of units that started out like the light horse. Given orders from amaris, but refused and started hitting the rim worlds republic forces on their own. They seem to be the biggest and best, besides the clans if you really think about it.
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Retry
12/27/13 01:14 PM
67.239.109.174
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If I recall some mercs have an agreement with their contracters that they take most or all the salvage from the battles they fight.
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Cray
12/27/13 01:15 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
And yet we are expected to believe that a new book will fix things
No, you're not "expected" to "believe" anything. Instead, you're invited to go read the draft rules yourself and nitpick them if you don't think they deliver what you're looking for. Again, here's the link. The files are free to download and you can see all the player feedback to date.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/board,84.0.html
Most of the repair and maintenance budgeting in Interstellar Operations' force operations chapter were based on prior Mercenary Handbooks, so that aspect's not new. The largest change was budgeting the force, which now gives an opportunity for real profit IF a force has a few good years with little damage.
Quote:
and give us a perfect table and charts and diagrams to show folks how to do something that was already in the game to start with...
Yes, it was in the game, which is why I also referenced prior Mercenary Handbooks throughout this thread. The major changes in the force creation and operation rules are:
1) Provide rules for building government and pirate forces in addition to merc forces
2) Go back to Mercenaries 1st edition method of acquiring units to speed up force creation (lump sum of cash, versus rolling for a few warriors at a time)
3) Establish payments related to actual costs of the force, so there's a chance mercs and pirates can turn a reasonable profit
Quote:
yeah not seeing that either.
Understood. Freely available online documents are hard to review. 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/27/13 01:17 PM
174.69.53.47
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They do have that, which is a great thing, BUT if they don't have the facilites to install the tech then really what good is it doing them? Sure they can sell it, get the cash and fix their equipment that way, but how long before a contractor goes, sorry not salvage rights when their parent government says no to that clause?
The new tech is like the Clan tech of old, prior to things reaching a point of almost equal, the Houses would not let let the mercs take the salvage. That lead to a lot of mercs going rouge as well as the nature of the Houses willing to throw the mercs in front of the Clan onslaught vs their own troops.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/27/13 01:18 PM
174.69.53.47
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Cray you took that comment out of context and you know that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/27/13 01:19 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
No offense, but i doubt i will get the new books. In my opinion, the newer stuff is nothing more then making huge amounts of damage and confusion just to make it look good. What is the difference between doing 1 point or 10000 points when the armor is adjusted to compensate? It requires x amount of hits weither its 1 point or 10000.
That hasn't happened to armor or damage. The pinnacle of damage is, for the most part, the 1989 Clan weapons. New armors don't greatly increase damage tolerance without a lot of penalties.
Quote:
Enemy has lasers. Use aerosol to disperse it. Using ppcs, lots of spikes in the ground to ground the shot. Missles, use lots of chaff to break targetting locks. yadda yadda. Why not drop bombs from orbit and be done with it. Or large rockets from orbit. Wipe out defender.
What have you been reading to think those are in the game?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
12/27/13 01:20 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
If I recall some mercs have an agreement with their contracters that they take most or all the salvage from the battles they fight.
Salvage is one aspect of a merc contract.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/27/13 01:23 PM
174.69.53.47
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What was wrong with the older Merc handbooks? Why couldn't they been ported over to the new system as is or with the small changes?
Sure you make rule changes to fix areas that max no sense or folks are not following at all, but why would a total revamp of a book that worked well enough be needed?
Mercs are there to be used in the BT universe, they are not the gilded House units, sure some are well known, Hounds, Dragoons etc...and some have gain favor of a House and become a favored unit and part of that nation, aka MAC, but for the most part the average merc unit is not going to be able to that without a lot of luck and some really amazing things happening for them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/27/13 01:27 PM
174.69.53.47
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Quote:
Quote:
Enemy has lasers. Use aerosol to disperse it. Using ppcs, lots of spikes in the ground to ground the shot. Missles, use lots of chaff to break targetting locks. yadda yadda. Why not drop bombs from orbit and be done with it. Or large rockets from orbit. Wipe out defender.
What have you been reading to think those are in the game?
Think his point is they should be there in the game and I recall Keiths wrote an article call HI-TECH BATTLETECH for the fanzine FAR AND AWAY that had similar items in it that expanded BT to a nice new level, Keiths as in the Andrew and William, you might recall them Cray they wrote the books about the GDL.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/27/13 01:44 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Why couldn't they been ported over to the new system as is or with the small changes?
Many rules were ported over with only small changes, like I said earlier in this thread.
Karagin, are you actually going to read the drafts and player feedback? They're free, they're online, and every rule change that raised a flag with players is explained in the feedback threads.
Quote:
What was wrong with the older Merc handbooks?
1) Mercs Handbook 1st edition was optimized for generating merc units from only the 'Mechs in TR:3025. It didn't expand well to the current era, though it had some good ideas that were used in IntOps.
2) Mercs Handbook 2nd edition had an extremely tedious and slow method for generating forces. Most of its rules, though, became the basis for IntOps' rules.
3) Players had long complained of inadequate budget for their forces, and you can find some of those threads on Sarna. It was nearly impossible to turn a profit as a merc without stepping outside the rules. A merc could go bankrupt simply moving from across the Inner Sphere to a new mission.
4) No support for government or pirate forces.
5) No codification of force backgrounds or history generation guidance.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/27/13 03:40 PM
206.29.182.159
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Quote:
What was wrong with the older Merc handbooks? Why couldn't they been ported over to the new system as is or with the small changes?
Because everyone has already bought the old books and there is no corporate profits unless everyone buys more stuff.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
12/27/13 03:46 PM
174.69.53.47
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Cray I will read them, but at the same time, if folks found issues, with things then they should have come up with ways around the issues. As for going broke, it might that things weren't played out well or they tried to be super heroes got their heads handed to them.
Also it depends on the GM and if they couldn't come up with a force of mechs when a wealth of information from scenario packs to all the rule books abounded back then, then really that is sad display of their ability to GM a game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/27/13 03:54 PM
174.69.53.47
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Seriously if the GM is being a hard case then yes a player run unit will have issues, but wait that is true in every game system. So saying it is so hard in the BT system is not saying anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/27/13 08:42 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
Because everyone has already bought the old books and there is no corporate profits unless everyone buys more stuff.
Corporate profits. That suggests the operation is big enough to qualify as a corporation in the colloquial sense.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
12/27/13 08:46 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
Cray I will read them,
Let me know if you have any particular issues with the drafts rules. Before posting the comments, please review the beta testing comments to see if your issues have been addressed / explained.
Quote:
but at the same time, if folks found issues, with things then they should have come up with ways around the issues.
They did, and they shared the work-around with FanPro and CGL. Interstellar Operations is the chance to codify all those years of players' experiences into an improved set of rules that meet the needs of the players. You need to respect the hard-won playtesting lessons of players using the older merc rules.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
12/27/13 08:54 PM
66.74.187.127
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The chaff was actually in one of the mech warrior computer games. Think it was 2. Mission against combine i believe had the combine hanging metal chunks from trees so light mechs could pop up and slam you, and you couldnt get any sort of lock. It was all visual.
Not sure where I seen about the aerosol. It may have come from the buck rogers video game of way back when. I also think there was a reference to it in one of the fiction books. Yes, I know the fiction wasnt considered canon. Now the original mechwarrior character book had something in there about stealth paint on one of the pictures of mechs dealing with the lyran commonwealth.
Some are just thought up when talking about things with old friends.
Thinking about it, they used ground base energy relays to fry incoming ships in one of the books. Want to say the fourth succession war. The confederation was hitting a jumpship manufacture equipment with intention to destroy the federate suns ability to produce them.
One of the scenario books had dealt with mechs underwater, and crawling. No rules for that in anything but that book. McKinnons raiders I believe.
And yes donkey. They dont make money if they dont come out with something to replace the older stuff. Nothing like getting mechwarrior 3rd generation book only to read it refers to 4th generation stuff.
One last thing that is in the books. Not sure if its lyran resource book or not, but they have systems to prevent damage to structure. Believe they used it on the collesium arena on solaris. detonates missles, bleeds off ppc energy, and darkens to avoid laser damage thru it.
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Rotwang
12/28/13 06:48 AM
94.227.126.162
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Quote:
HOW did he get the mech? Why would his boss give him another one? He just lost an expensive machine so really WHO would trust him with another?
If it's her personal mech, the mechwarrior approaches a unit offering a personal asset. They agree to conform to the unit's rules and regulations and the CO is happy to get a new toy in his lineup. If the mech gets destroyed their contract might incorporate some reimbursement for the loss, varying from money, salvage or even a replacement mech, depending on what the unit can afford.
If it belongs to the unit, you look at the situation. If the mech was destroyed when it was clear the situation was akin to floating in a current of fecal matter without manual propulsion, and they were the only thing standing between the enemy and the rest running back to the dropship, I doubt the commander would dare suggest it was their fault and kick them permanently out of the cockpit. If they stumble upon a binary of Clan mechs gong ooops and shouting "This wasn't planned !" Then yes, the CO would probably make sure they get demoted to clearing latrines.
In my case it's a personal mech, that was lost in combat, the unit is obliged by contract to reimburse the pilot with all available means and they offer a new assault class mech to make up for it. It's not of the same quality as the original mech, so the mechwarrior, with help of the unit's techs upgrades it as I assume that any reasonably successful Assault mech pilot would make more than enough to be at least well-off and set aside some money as a contingency.
Compare it to medieval times where a warhorse, a full suit of armour and all the extra equipment cost the equivalent of a mid-sized house. Since there were plenty of knights, they would have made the money to maintain that kind of equipment. Knights often did ransom each other and most would have the means to start over should they have lost everything.
In the post 3050-universe, most units would probably invest in buying new/used mechs that are not frontline equipment, they would probably be used for training or be on stand-by to replace losses. Companies would have 2-3 spare mechs in most cases, regiments might have anything from one to two companies of reserves.
One of the units I created is a fairly large combined arms force of two mech regiments, several armour and infantry regiments, artillery, air and aerospace assets (no dropships or jumpships though) they even have training cadres, reserves, transportation, maintenance and supply, military police and a SWAT team. All this is supplemented by techs, drivers, accountants, cooks, janitors, doctors, teachers because all those thousands of servicemen and women have families and dependents who have to clothed, fed, housed ...
Any Merc unit would have three major positions at the top (be they handled by a single person or multiple ones) one being the military commander who does the fighting bit, the CEO who makes sure the unit makes the money to stay in business and the mayor who leads a large community of combatants and non-combatants alike up to the size of an entire city. So your C-Bills don't just go to paying the ammo and the maintenance of your mechs, you have to buy anything from food to prefab housing, and even diapers in case your employer left those bits out of the contract.
Edited by Rotwang (12/28/13 09:55 AM)
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Cray
12/28/13 02:39 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
The chaff was actually in one of the mech warrior computer games.
If it doesn't show up in a rulebook, the video games don't count. (Ditto for cartoons and comics.)
Aerosols and chaff are basically non-entities in the real board game. Metal spikes in the ground wouldn't affect PPCs because, per Tech Manual, they're not some steam punk "lightning gun." They're particle accelerators that don't use raw voltage to deliver electricity to the target. They deliver beams of radiation at light-speed. The Lorentz Force Law says that over a range of BT PPCs metal spikes won't be noticed by the beams.
Quote:
Thinking about it, they used ground base energy relays to fry incoming ships in one of the books. Want to say the fourth succession war.
A microwave power transmission system was used to dazzle some DropShips in the 4th Succession Wars. The rules are provided in Tactical Operations under microwave power collectors, and they're not going to change the course of a battle unless you happen to build a city-sized power plant and transmitter array that are easily disable by a couple of aerospace fighters.
Quote:
One of the scenario books had dealt with mechs underwater, and crawling. No rules for that in anything but that book. McKinnons raiders I believe.
'Mechs underwater have been supported in the game since at least 1986 in BattleTech 2nd edition. Every subsequent core rule book addressed BattleMechs underwater (BattleTech 3rd edition, 4th Edition, BattleTech Compendium, BattleTech Master Rules, etc.). The Lyran Alliance Handbook and Tactical Operations added very deep underwater operations.
Quote:
One last thing that is in the books. Not sure if its lyran resource book or not, but they have systems to prevent damage to structure. Believe they used it on the collesium arena on solaris. detonates missles, bleeds off ppc energy, and darkens to avoid laser damage thru it.
It is in the Solaris VII boxed set, and was incorporated into regular BattleTech in the form of light engines. It offers no miraculous armor enhancement, just lighter (but bulkier) radiation shielding for fusion engines and transparent coliseum walls. If you'd like a 'Mech with transparent, weight-inefficient armor, that's the stuff to use. If you want weight-efficient armor, use regular armor.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/29/13 11:54 AM
24.243.178.124
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Quote:
They did, and they shared the work-around with FanPro and CGL. Interstellar Operations is the chance to codify all those years of players' experiences into an improved set of rules that meet the needs of the players. You need to respect the hard-won playtesting lessons of players using the older merc rules.
Respect is a two way street, given how many of the PTB and some of their buddies have acted hard to respect them. As for the player testers, you missed the point. The work around are for each group needs NOT a mass hey this is how you did it here you go kind of thing, because each group playing is going to be different in what they do and expect from the game and it's mechanics.
Biggest issue many had with MW3 RPG was the pre-canned characters you got by rolling the life paths, and based on what I have seen those who loved it where the kind of players who use the archetypes for the character in any game they play verses using their own imagination etc...
Playtesting is a good thing, as long as both the pro and con get noticed, something that seems lacking at times with TPTB...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/29/13 11:59 AM
24.243.178.124
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Quote:
Quote:
HOW did he get the mech? Why would his boss give him another one? He just lost an expensive machine so really WHO would trust him with another?
If it's her personal mech, the mechwarrior approaches a unit offering a personal asset. They agree to conform to the unit's rules and regulations and the CO is happy to get a new toy in his lineup. If the mech gets destroyed their contract might incorporate some reimbursement for the loss, varying from money, salvage or even a replacement mech, depending on what the unit can afford.
If it belongs to the unit, you look at the situation. If the mech was destroyed when it was clear the situation was akin to floating in a current of fecal matter without manual propulsion, and they were the only thing standing between the enemy and the rest running back to the dropship, I doubt the commander would dare suggest it was their fault and kick them permanently out of the cockpit. If they stumble upon a binary of Clan mechs gong ooops and shouting "This wasn't planned !" Then yes, the CO would probably make sure they get demoted to clearing latrines.
In my case it's a personal mech, that was lost in combat, the unit is obliged by contract to reimburse the pilot with all available means and they offer a new assault class mech to make up for it. It's not of the same quality as the original mech, so the mechwarrior, with help of the unit's techs upgrades it as I assume that any reasonably successful Assault mech pilot would make more than enough to be at least well-off and set aside some money as a contingency.
Compare it to medieval times where a warhorse, a full suit of armour and all the extra equipment cost the equivalent of a mid-sized house. Since there were plenty of knights, they would have made the money to maintain that kind of equipment. Knights often did ransom each other and most would have the means to start over should they have lost everything.
In the post 3050-universe, most units would probably invest in buying new/used mechs that are not frontline equipment, they would probably be used for training or be on stand-by to replace losses. Companies would have 2-3 spare mechs in most cases, regiments might have anything from one to two companies of reserves.
One of the units I created is a fairly large combined arms force of two mech regiments, several armour and infantry regiments, artillery, air and aerospace assets (no dropships or jumpships though) they even have training cadres, reserves, transportation, maintenance and supply, military police and a SWAT team. All this is supplemented by techs, drivers, accountants, cooks, janitors, doctors, teachers because all those thousands of servicemen and women have families and dependents who have to clothed, fed, housed ...
Any Merc unit would have three major positions at the top (be they handled by a single person or multiple ones) one being the military commander who does the fighting bit, the CEO who makes sure the unit makes the money to stay in business and the mayor who leads a large community of combatants and non-combatants alike up to the size of an entire city. So your C-Bills don't just go to paying the ammo and the maintenance of your mechs, you have to buy anything from food to prefab housing, and even diapers in case your employer left those bits out of the contract.
All of this is an IF kind of thing, IF they agreed to the mechwarriors' terms IF they have the ability and IF he is not a moron who can't understand one mechs isn't going to stop a Trinary etc...
ALL of it depends on the contract and what the unit can afford and the average, note what I said here, the average merc unit isn't going to reward stupidity like in the case of Jimbo mech. Sorry but they can't afford such things and would not be willing to do it if they could and most would toss the pilot out of their ranks.
On the side note, IF the players are running something a campy hack and slash style game then anything can happen, all depends on the GM, which was my point to Cray but it seems he missed it by telling us to check out IO. Which so far reads good but still need to see it in actual use long term. Lots of things in BT read well until folks start to use them...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/29/13 12:01 PM
24.243.178.124
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Quote:
If it doesn't show up in a rulebook, the video games don't count. (Ditto for cartoons and comics.)
Really Cray they don't count? Then explain a lot of the crap we have from the video games in the board/tabletop game to date? Binary Lasers etc...I would like to hear you explain how the video games etc...don't count when crap from it ends up in the main game, mechs included.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/29/13 01:08 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Playtesting is a good thing, as long as both the pro and con get noticed, something that seems lacking at times with TPTB...
And sharing wisdom like that is a good thing if it actually applies to the situation, rather than being based on entirely different situations.
Anyone curious to see how accurate Karagin is about the playtesting and writer feedback specific to the IntOps force creation and operation rules may use the link I gave earlier in this thread to review all the discussion surrounding playtesting. Questions were asked and answered, feedback given, changes made. Will the result make everyone happy? No. Will the result answer a lot of player requests about older force generation rules? That's your call.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/board,84.0.html
Quote:
Biggest issue many had with MW3 RPG was the pre-canned characters you got by rolling the life paths, and based on what I have seen those who loved it where the kind of players who use the archetypes for the character in any game they play verses using their own imagination etc...
MW3 was also noted by players for a slow-and-clunky combat system and a very slow character generation system (beyond lifepaths; determining skill values was also a slow process).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (12/29/13 01:12 PM)
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Karagin
12/29/13 01:25 PM
24.243.178.124
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And again Cray each players group of events is going to be different so no chart or rule set will cover everything, which seems to be your stance here, that a rule set will cover everything related to a RPG secession with a force in BT cause the rule book offers something to explain things. Not all players follow the rules, seen many who use GURPS for the character creation part, or the rules for combat from another system or come up with their own, and that works for them, will it work for everyone else? I not so sure on that cause each group plays differently.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/29/13 02:47 PM
66.74.187.127
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I would think that with all the tech they should have, an anti ship platform(s) would be the solution to invasions. Almost like the warships. If the enemy cannt reach the planet, their is no need for huge forces. Yes, you will need some incase they sneak in with hired dropships, but if you have them checked before they get into orbit, it eliminates alot of the issues.
I dont remember seeing rules on things like high concentration of metals that stop sensors from working. Might be I just missed this one. They used them in a few scenarios.
One thing i didnt really see is anything on using hardline video feeds or permanently mounted sensors that would allow indirect fire over hills. This might be covered by the idf rules of a mech using a second mech to spot. Interesting that type of link sounds close to a c3, but only works for idf.
As for another way for people to get mechs, something that happens even today. Millitary people sell they stuff they have. You can buy a tank and fix it to work properly. Yeah, you might have to fabricate some of the parts, but you can do it. More then a few retired ranking officers have illegal items in their houses that they took with them when they retired. Some sell the stuff to other people, or even have it stolen. Some criminal are better equipped then law enforcement in some areas.
Mercs today get some great equipment which is supposed to be illegal. In battle tech, it is not illegal to own most items.
But this is a game to have fun. Not worry about how technology can hit a target 30 light years away, but not hit some large object thats less then 30 meters away.
My limited understand of hpg is its a focused energy stream. The simple rotation of the planet the senders on would make it difficult to keep on target.
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Cray
12/30/13 08:50 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Quote:
If it doesn't show up in a rulebook, the video games don't count. (Ditto for cartoons and comics.)
Really Cray they don't count? Then explain a lot of the crap we have from the video games in the board/tabletop game to date?
Hehe, wow. I'll rephrase my last statement:
"Nothing in video games is canon if it only appears in the video game. The only way an item from a BT video game becomes canon is to be published in a rulebook. Even then, the only canon aspect is what is in the rulebook; the video game version remains non-canon."
And I didn't write blazers based on a video game, but rather descriptions in old rulebooks (TR:3026, MW1) about the personal blazer rifles having trouble scaling up to 'Mech sizes. If blazers were in a video game, it wasn't one I played.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
12/30/13 08:52 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
And again Cray each players group of events is going to be different so no chart or rule set will cover everything, which seems to be your stance here, that a rule set will cover everything related to a RPG secession with a force in BT cause the rule book offers something to explain things. Not all players follow the rules, seen many who use GURPS for the character creation part, or the rules for combat from another system or come up with their own, and that works for them, will it work for everyone else? I not so sure on that cause each group plays differently.
The lack of specific objections to the draft rules or playtesting feedback in the above statement implies you still haven't downloaded the free, easily-accessed rules and read the playtesting feedback.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (12/30/13 08:55 PM)
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Karagin
12/31/13 12:35 AM
24.243.178.124
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Actual Cray I have, stop assuming. Secondly I was stating my opinion on the matter as a whole in that each players group will have different outcomes and no one set of rules will cover everything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
12/31/13 12:39 AM
68.190.197.104
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lol
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Cray
12/31/13 08:54 AM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Actual Cray I have, stop assuming.
Heh, being on the other side of assumptions isn't so amusing, is it?
Edited by Cray (12/31/13 09:09 AM)
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Karagin
12/31/13 10:32 AM
24.243.178.124
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Your point is there, but I am not seeing it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/31/13 12:38 PM
66.74.187.127
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Looks like karagin is saying that some things work in one game masters campaign that another wouldnt even think of allowing. This creates a major issue. There is no rules to say that you can allow/disallow things that you dont like in your campaign.
The stealth skill brought out in the kell hounds is a very good example. Its in a scenario module, so is canon. Having that in a campaign can be very disruptive.
Yes, it requires alot to get it, but what is to stop everyone from doing what the need to in order to get it?
The whole refusal war. That had a mechwarrior video game attached to it, and some of the stuff that happened in it, seems to have made it to canon status. So how do they figure whats canon and whats not? Not everyone is rich enough to continue to buy the new material as it comes out. That also applies to time and people going online to find it out.
It is a business, so i understand coming out with new material. Some of the stuff should not be scattered in different books, but combined into a single book like rules of war or whatever they want to call it. That should have all the updates needed, while the others are more story or better explains things.
And who decides what canon rules are used in tournaments? Why cannt you use any canon rules? I dont know if they allow custom mechs, but if they do, any mech made to fit the construction rules should be allowed. Otherwise it looks alot like discrimination.
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Karagin
12/31/13 12:46 PM
24.243.178.124
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So you are saying Ghostrider that is a group doesn't want to use something for what every reason they should not be allowed to do so since it means they aren't following canon?
I think you missed the idea of ROLE-PLAYING and given that the players are going to what they want no matter what the rules say and a good GM can adjust and move forward without being bogged down by the rules, which was and is my point and Cray's counter point is that the PTB have felt the need to try and cover everything under the sun by asking the players to share what found that works or doesn't, and again not everything will work for every group of players and the rules should be there as a guideline NOT a set in stone kind of thing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/13 01:21 PM
172.56.9.16
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I agree with Ghostrider most people are not going to dump thousands of dollars in buying every book published. Heck most people cant hope to be able to afford to do so. Even the people that do have every book are not going to remember everything in the books. The only people that will have a chance of doing so will have something with the books being published or have a photographic memory.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
12/31/13 11:18 PM
66.74.187.127
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Roleplaying is up to players and gm to find out. Some rules work for one campaign, but not others.
One example was someone using c3 tech with clan units. The players using innersphere tech, and not having ecm or anything of the sort, hated having the unit wiped out from having that combo. They liked it when they played the clans with it. The gm decided it was players vs clans with c3 until everyone decided to stop playing. Even the next group the gm was running gave up quickly.
They need to cover everything they can, so people can go from one game into another without worry they will have to start over. Weither the gm uses it is another story.
It has already been said that buying several books just to find out you need another one to cover one point. It is also annoying as hell to get one game system down, just to have to change the game play next year because of a new game system is being made, even before the current one is done.
Played a few games that rule changes werent told to players before a game begins. Some hurt badly, while others made things to easy. Having it in writing how things go helps alot on what to expect.
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Karagin
01/01/14 01:12 AM
24.243.178.124
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And again no rule set is going cover everything. Each group plays different, for every rule there are those groups that come up with a dozen or so variants on them that work for them, so what you are suggesting is that all of us send our home rules for every single rule just so we can have another rule book that tried to encompass everything, which invalidates your whole argument since you have pointed out that many of the players can't afford to keep buying a new rule every 9 months or so just because some players can't role play something or the GM can't use their imagination or make a educated guess as to a logical way around something that is an impasse to their game. I am just not following HOW any of this helps the average player by trying to cover every base, are we still even talking about Battletech or the RPG set in the same universe or are we suggesting that the game become like Star Fleet Battles with rules and sub-rules and sub-rules to the sub-rules, just so to cover every thing possible that players can come up with or have questions about?
Base rules cover HOW to play the game, what happens after that is up to the GM, if the players want to have super mechs and pilots then it's up to GM to make the game a challenge for them so as they aren't making him or her feel like it's a waste of time. Then again no GM is going to let a group of players start off with the best of the best. At least none that I have ever meet over the years in any game system.
The what happens even after this all encompassing rule book series is finally done (if that ever happens) and all of a sudden players have new issues with the rules, or the rules don't work for their situation? Are we going to see yet again another all encompassing rule book?
How many of us want to play with a GM who can't think out side of the rules to make the game fun verses one who can on the fly roll with the characters who take the third door on the left verse taking the one the GM wanted them to take? If asked how many are going to go with the first type vs the second?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/01/14 12:38 PM
68.190.197.104
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I'm not sure what you're suggesting from your posts, other than being able to alter rules at your table as you see fit. Which has always been a rule of BattleTech/MechWarrior, so is there really a disagreement here?
From your other conversations with me, you seem hell-bent on accusing others of trying to tell you what to do or restricting your freedom in some unknown manner. That seems more an issue than anything the developers, writers or other posters have suggested. If you want to make things up at your table, nobody is going to tell you not to. And nobody has, to my recollection.
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ghostrider
01/01/14 12:39 PM
66.74.187.127
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one book with all the rule changes isnt making everyone buy 20 books every 6 months isnt against trying to keep it affordable.
It seemed every new book comes out with yet another rule change, and books in the next few months will refer back to that rule that isnt in the main book.
And I agree with you about gms. It is up to them to decide what to do with the game. Alot do a decent job of filling in the gaps. Some couldnt figure out how to run anything but generic games. A few are able to create a whole universe on the fly.
The lack of having things common sense things covered makes me wonder if they want some logic in the game or not. The simple countermeasures, more then what i had come up with, need to be covered. Other things like why a fast mech traveling at say 10 hexes a round runs into a heavy woods, but yet doesnt take any damage as it slams into trees. Not gonna be able to dodge while moving that fast. Why that same woods prevents a jeep from moving thru it. Level ground being a given here. Just has the woods on it.
How do you handle a crawling mech? I believe the original rules said something about them not being able to, but yet the canon scenario book had them doing so. Same thing with a mech using its jets in a horizontal way, instead of the normal upward arc.
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Karagin
01/01/14 01:41 PM
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Tons of common sense issues with the rules, always has been, and I believe that is what their (TPTB) whole puprpuse of the core rule books was to keep things on a simple bases, but that doesn't seem to be coming over as a whole once you look at things.
And TigerShark, I am not saying anyone is trying to tell me what to do, I am saying that the idea that a single or series of rule books will cover everything player groups can come up with is crazy. Where did I say anyone was trying to tell me what to do at my table? Not seeing that in my posting. Try reading it again and then look back as the other comments made that if the idea of a section or whole book is to cover everything a group of play testers came up with then it is not going to work well because not every player who happens to play the game was there for the test and their questions or events that are not covered to their understanding or liking with in the rules will not be addressed and even sending the matter into TPTB to answer or explain only covers that event not one for the next group etc...and to try and do so ends up turn Battletech into another version of Star Fleet Battles, which given how you are saying it is me saying they are telling me what to do suggest you have either never heard of or know about Star Fleet Battles, or have not played that game at all. Go look into the game and it's numerous rule books and sub-rule sections and errata and sub-errata to the errata.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/01/14 02:17 PM
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And we are drifting WAY off topic, seeing how we were talking about mercs getting enough money to cover custom upgrades and then keeping them up and running.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/01/14 06:23 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
The whole refusal war. That had a mechwarrior video game attached to it, and some of the stuff that happened in it, seems to have made it to canon status. So how do they figure whats canon and whats not? Not everyone is rich enough to continue to buy the new material as it comes out.
Answer: nothing in the video game is canon. Don't even bother using the game as a reference, because it isn't a reference.
The line developers' formula for making video game material into canon is approximately this:
1) Was there a video game element that the players and writers liked? If yes, then move to step 2. Else, forget it.
2) Is there any upcoming publication that addresses the general time period of the video game? If yes, then move to step 3. Else, forget it.
3) Does the upcoming publication's topic something that would cover the video game material? If yes, then move to step 4. Else, forget it.
4) How much room is there in the publication to address video game material? Cut down the video game material to fit into available space and move to step 5.
5) Subject the publication's video game-derived content to a thorough continuity-, fact-, and play-testing editing process, because video games always suffer at least some detachment from mainstream canon. Move to step 6.
6) Publish the new book, which includes the first canon material derived from the game. The video game material itself is, of course, still non-canon.
Quote:
And who decides what canon rules are used in tournaments?
The tournament organizers. The default in the current corebooks is "any rule labeled 'tournament-legal'." That's currently the contents of Total Warfare and Tech Manual.
Quote:
Why cannt you use any canon rules?
That depends on the tournament organizers. By default, rules (like advanced- and experimental-grade rules) are excluded because they significantly alter the dynamic of the game and are less well-known to the referees/judges. However, some tournaments use whatever they want - sometimes specifically to have fun with the advanced and experimental rules.
It's not like there's a game police squad that will storm a tournament and burn its maps to the ground if that tournament uses rules other than tournament-level rules.
Quote:
I dont know if they allow custom mechs,
Ask the tournament organizers or check their announcement(s) for the rule levels specified. A well-run tourney will tell folks in advance what to bring so you don't waste time at the tourney trying to print acceptable record sheets.
Quote:
but if they do, any mech made to fit the construction rules should be allowed. Otherwise it looks alot like discrimination.
Actually, it's more a matter of setting common ground rules that all participants are familiar with and are easily reviewed. Nothing bogs down a game's start-up like the guy who walks in with a 'Mech built with a load of experimental gear from a questionably canon publication and requires the organizers to spend half an hour double-checking your design's stats.
Meanwhile, a tournament that uses a strict set of rules and (commonly) only designs from the canon Record Sheet publications avoids all the muss and fuss. The designs have already been checked, the rules are well-known, and everyone's good to go in short order. That's not discrimination, that's just good tournament organization.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
01/02/14 12:48 PM
66.74.187.127
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back to the subject.
If mercs didnt make enough money to survive or even expand, there would not be any. Without mercs, alot of the houses raids would have started wars. Not only would it destroy any chances of deflecting blame, but that would also mean sending in house troops on missions that would be sending them to their deaths for very little gain.
It may be cheaper to get a damaged mech, and fix it up then it is to buy a new one. Consider finding a mech that house techs dont wanna work to fix, but leave it on a battlefield. Now a good tech would take parts from other otherwise worthless scraps and use the good parts there to fix some of the bad parts in another. Something simpler like 2 same model mechs taking a head shot on opposite sides. It is possible that parts from one would allow a rebuild of the other.
This is not to say that someone in the quartermaster hasnt 'lost' a shipment some wheres and sold the mechs on the black market. Yes, it does happen.
And the topic on this thread was originally about a mech design. The topic is so far off, that another step isnt gonna make that much of a difference.
Thanks for clearing up the tourney thing.
The games thing is still iffy. Either they knew what happened in the time line before it was made, or the writers for btech liked how the game took care of things, like natasha's death.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/08/14 09:40 AM
172.56.38.133
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How mercs should have worked was,
They form
They get into a battle
They disband and take off with their booty before the odds catch up with them.
A state really cant stand on mercenary forces.
Also its so easy to field a conscripted military army.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
01/08/14 01:47 PM
66.74.101.135
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Conscripted armies are great, in low tech worlds. Grabbing someone off the streets that has never driven say a backhoe, would not be able to do much with it. Now driving a tank and firing the weapon systems is even more of a problem.
As long as you pay more then anyone else, mercs will stand with you. You would be stupid to try and run an empire with just mercs. But the right ones can beat any conscription army, unless the are outnumbered by a large factor.
I would like to know why you think they would disband after a battle?
Also the odds will catch up with everyone sooner or later. Even elite house units get their butts handed to them from time to time.
Mercs normally get the crap jobs, so yes, they are more likely to be hurt then pet units.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/08/14 09:58 PM
208.54.5.174
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Do you consider China and Russia low tech militaries? Both have a Conscripted military and they supply a good part of the world with its advanced military hardware. You might want to look up on Wikipeda what countries have a Conscripted military you might be really surprised who has a Conscripted military that is not some back water tech state.
Using mercs long term is just a wast of state funds when a standing army is so much cheaper and you don't need to worry they will leave at a critical time because their contract expired. Military service is not all that well paid until you look at high ranking officers and even then they may be badly paid.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
01/09/14 12:43 AM
66.74.101.135
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Is it a waste of funds to hire someone to garrison a planet for less then what a single unit like a mech could cost? and you dont have to pay to fix it.
Conscription works. Now you have to train and equip your soldiers. How many people will trust a person with a multi million dollar peice of equipment that they never used before? Even a couple hundred thousand without training.
Now if that equipment can kill the user or others without the proper training?
With conscription, you do not know weither the soldiers will stay and fight, or run as soon as something goes boom.
And your example shows your contracts arent written well. You have a clause that keeps them fighting until the high command says its over.
The other part of that example about not being paid well. That is very true from conscription armies. They dont pay you well enough to die. In america, the pay isnt great for the army people, but its better then working for minimum wage. If it wasn't, no one would join. period.
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Karagin
01/09/14 06:19 AM
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And who says mercs will stand and fight? You don't know if the mercs will honor their contract. Battlefield realities could cause them to as we say in the military and not always in a good way, pop smoke and run like hell. Or what happens when the other side offers them more money to do nothing or to attack your side?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/09/14 01:07 PM
66.74.101.135
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That is very true. The only thing you have is their word. Once you get a reputation for running, you dont get hired. You also make sure the contract doesnt pay them until after the job is done.
There have been stories of merc switching, changing sides, as well as sacking the thing they were supposed to be guarding.
Same with the other direction, such as holding in the face of overwhelming odds.
You only find out once the situation comes up.
Mercs are less likely to be loyal to your cause then a house force.
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Karagin
01/09/14 06:50 PM
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Even a unit that runs or changes sides will find some one willing to hire them when they a truly expendable forces, we saw enough of this with Jihad or so we told that is part of the WoBs way of gaining troops maybe sorta kind of...but the point is mercs are a business and they WOULD NOT give a pilot a super tech mech who is the kind to go out and get it blown to scrap. That is not smart business sense.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/09/14 07:29 PM
66.74.101.135
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there are times when they would. Not often. Spec ops would be a good example of that today. Taking a 1.5 million dollar stinger on a mission, but using it to blow up a 20,000 dollar car would not be considered a good thing.
But yet, they would restock the ops team with another stinger because it may be needed on another mission.
Same with a chopper. Some missions it is almost assured it will be taken down, yet they will assign another one if it does. Seal team 6 lost one during the hit on bin laden. Do you think they didnt get a new one afterwards?
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Karagin
01/09/14 07:41 PM
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BAD comparison, mercs don't have limitless funds that are squeezed out of taxpayers, they have to buy everything from food, to meds, to parts, to paper etc...that is just to keep their people alive and all. Then you add in the cost of keeping their weapons and vehicles/mechs running as well moving them around, storing them etc...it's not the same saying spec ops team has their homeland giving them what they need to complete a mission, no matter the out come.
Mercs are NOT how Hollywood or playboy crap bags of the PMC you seen in Iraq or Afghanistan, most are living by the skin of their teeth and don't have the glamor or glory.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/09/14 10:05 PM
68.190.197.104
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Where are you getting this from, in-universe? Can you provide some citations? i.e.: Quote, page number, book.
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Karagin
01/09/14 10:29 PM
24.243.178.124
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The old Mercenary Handbook painted the picture of life as a merc, as do many of the novels prior to the rush to become high tech to face the Clans, as do many of the sourcebooks talking about mercs running instead of fighting, or failed in their operation and run since they ticked off their boss etc...Even the original rule book gave a write up of the merc units in the box set double sided book.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/09/14 10:59 PM
206.29.182.155
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Quote:
The other part of that example about not being paid well. That is very true from conscription armies. They dont pay you well enough to die. In america, the pay isnt great for the army people, but its better then working for minimum wage. If it wasn't, no one would join. period.
I suggest actually looking at what service personal are paid. A privet is paid well below min wage. The real perk to military service is the benefits. Other than some standard personal equipment the military supplies everything one needs. And even the perks are not all that great. If someone can afford to go to a non VA hospital they will. VA hospitals are not known for great medical care.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
01/09/14 11:04 PM
24.243.178.124
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I do pretty well on what I'm paid by the Army...then again I don't tend to spend all my money the second I get it either.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/09/14 11:55 PM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
The old Mercenary Handbook painted the picture of life as a merc, as do many of the novels prior to the rush to become high tech to face the Clans, as do many of the sourcebooks talking about mercs running instead of fighting, or failed in their operation and run since they ticked off their boss etc...Even the original rule book gave a write up of the merc units in the box set double sided book.
That's fine. Can you provide citations?
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ghostrider
01/10/14 12:00 AM
66.74.101.135
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Not all mercs turn and burn. If they have a good contract, it has an idemnity(sp) clause in there the reimburse them for equipment lost.
Now the example i gave was to show you that stupid mistakes are paid for time and time again. You said no one would give you an expensive peice of equipment if you lost it due to a mistake. I gave you an example of how wrong that is.
If a merc made that mistake and the co had to pay for it, then maybe they wouldnt get another crack. Then again, maybe they would.
One good example of that is in the canon books. The kell hounds explain why they were called in to help prince Ian davion escape the combine forces. One of the units on planet failed horribly during one assault, but was being built back up. It wasn't disbanned. The pilots that lived got new machines. Yes, it was a house unit. It wasnt the first time they got mauled either. They got new machines to replace the old ones.
Now your example of the va system. There are some good ones. The fact that they tend to be in states no one wants to live in causes issues. That example also explains why people turn to being a merc. They tend to get better perks from a merc unit then their own government will supply.
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Karagin
01/10/14 12:06 AM
24.243.178.124
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Hey Tigershark get the books read them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/10/14 12:09 AM
24.243.178.124
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For every good merc unit that follows it's contract there is going to be plenty who don't or who do their own thing. Many merc units went AWOL rather then face the Clans, even when the House agents were offering full repairs etc...and units that stay full to the letter of their contract aren't always the best to have when the game or dynamic changes, since they won't change with it because their contract says XYZ, not LMNO.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/10/14 12:14 AM
206.29.182.155
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Quote:
I do pretty well on what I'm paid by the Army...then again I don't tend to spend all my money the second I get it either.
And I bet your not an E2 either. At the age bracket I think you're at I would guess you are at least an E5 if not higher and at that pay scale you should be doing ok. No where as good as an officer but not to bad.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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TigerShark
01/10/14 12:22 AM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
Hey Tigershark get the books read them.
I have. And I don't agree with your points since they're unfounded and not available in any of the books. I don't know where your information comes from, but it isn't from canon.
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ghostrider
01/10/14 12:24 AM
66.74.101.135
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Not hard to promise full repairs when the unit wont make it back. And it was even true of house units refusing to face the clans.
But it is correct that for every one good merc, there were dozens, if not hundreds that would disobey their first orders.
maybe we need to get nic to make a chat room for the boards. Seems im not the only one on right now.
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Karagin
01/10/14 06:21 AM
24.243.178.124
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Hey Tigershark, the points come from the info given in the sourcebooks and house books, from the original books, NOT the reworked retcon stuff, so if you don't like it, sorry about that bro. And the info on mercs is the basic info that always been there, they aren't trustworth and they work for those who pay them. Try re-reading the books and then try reading some books that have been written about mercs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/10/14 01:41 PM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
Hey Tigershark, the points come from the info given in the sourcebooks and house books, from the original books, NOT the reworked retcon stuff, so if you don't like it, sorry about that bro. And the info on mercs is the basic info that always been there, they aren't trustworth and they work for those who pay them. Try re-reading the books and then try reading some books that have been written about mercs.
I have. The original books' "Road Warrior" universe is no longer fully canon. So there's no point in having a shouting match when you're using out-dated information to prove a point. Most players don't dig out a 1987 boxed set every time they set up a table. There really are two, different topics here: The mercenaries from the original universe from the 1980s and those from today's universe.
Mercenaries in today's universe earn large sums of money, especially with the advent of Clan weaponry. They had a system of creating bonuses for mercs, holding back an additional bonus until contact was made with Clan opponents. If the merc outfit survived the conflict, they were awarded the bonus. Most Houses also paid big money for the salvage rights to Clan equipment, so they made extra cash there as well.
Field Manual: Mercenaries, p. 20
Quote:
Most garrison contracts along the Clan Occupation Zones include compensation bonuses if the Clans attack, and pay up to twice normal rates for each month that the unit faces such attacks. Raids into the zones also pay double the normal rate, and most employers tend to be generous with command and transportation rights. However, few employers are willing to surrender salvage rights to Clan technology.
The same book (FM:M) also holds that some merc outfits are paid in advanced equipment, in addition to (or in place of) cash. The Word of Blake in particular made a habit out of this.
As for the original topic, as to whether a Mercenary outfit could field such an advanced design, yes. Many Merc outfits do have a lot of high technology in them, such as Battle Magic, Wolf's Dragoons and the Blue Star Irregulars:
Field Manual: Mercenaries, p. 47 (1894th Light Horse)
Quote:
The command also boasts two companies of Inner Sphere OmniMechs upgraded with Clan technology sprinkled throughout the battalions.
So yes, the design posted is not out-of-the-ordinary.
Edited by TigerShark (01/10/14 02:05 PM)
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Karagin
01/10/14 05:03 PM
24.243.178.124
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Really? No longer canon...funny I guess that memo didn't come out to all of us. And NO the design posted is something that an average merc unit would NOT have nor able to keep up. Nice try though, but if your table allows powergaming and players to have super tech then hey that is for you guys to have fun with the rest of us tend to be a bit more down to earth so to speak.
Meanwhile mercs will turn on their employer if they have a better deal going for them. And your examples are exceptions to the rule NOT units starting out and again NO command is going to hand a pilot who is reckless a machine as the posted design aka the Jimbo just to give him or her a new mech.
Large sums of money that is gone when you actually sit down and do the math, they have to pay for everything, food, clothing, medical, fuel, ammo, spare parts, office supplies, room and board, transportation etc...and that is BEFORE paying the warriors and techs. Yeah tons of money, actually no they don't. They break even if they are luck which most aren't.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/10/14 05:28 PM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
Really? No longer canon...funny I guess that memo didn't come out to all of us. And NO the design posted is something that an average merc unit would NOT have nor able to keep up. Nice try though, but if your table allows powergaming and players to have super tech then hey that is for you guys to have fun with the rest of us tend to be a bit more down to earth so to speak.
Meanwhile mercs will turn on their employer if they have a better deal going for them. And your examples are exceptions to the rule NOT units starting out and again NO command is going to hand a pilot who is reckless a machine as the posted design aka the Jimbo just to give him or her a new mech.
Large sums of money that is gone when you actually sit down and do the math, they have to pay for everything, food, clothing, medical, fuel, ammo, spare parts, office supplies, room and board, transportation etc...and that is BEFORE paying the warriors and techs. Yeah tons of money, actually no they don't. They break even if they are luck which most aren't.
I posted citations and quotes from a canon source. It may be your OPINION that Mercs do this or that, but you haven't posted any proof beyond "it's in there somewhere." If it works on your table, that's fine. But what you make up on your table doesn't apply to the rest of the world.
Point is, you're imprinting your own opinion of how things should be over how things really are. If you have quotes and page numbers to back up your claims, please do post them. But there's no sense in shouting down mine or anyone else's opinion when you've given no evidence to the contrary.
"It's in that one book someplace -- Go read it!!" is not a valid source. Just FYI.
Edited by TigerShark (01/10/14 05:29 PM)
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Karagin
01/10/14 06:13 PM
24.243.178.124
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I wonder if Brion Legion would have turned out differently if they were run the way some feel a merc unit should run? Or the Cutthroats? Maybe Wilson's group would have a better chance at life...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/10/14 08:33 PM
66.74.101.135
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damn. Im gonna have to break out with the old tro. I believe there is a whole new mech line that is a modified version of the marauder that a tech was doing expensive mods to his mech, then started offering it for sale to others.
I agree that alot of players have more money the comstar, can make a mech factory on every world that pumps out large numbers of advance tech units, that should be curbed when discussing things with the rest of the world.
I still dont agree with your saying no unit would replace a valuable mech to someone that loses it, but do agree with the part of being reckless with it. That changes the whole story.
Some will try to replace a mech lost in battle. They wont do it with someone that charges an entire galaxy of clan mechs with one mech, on a glory run.
Guess alot of this is based on the proper terms and definitions.
Exceptions to this is units like Black Magic. They are tech/warriors that have succeeded and propered with making their own mods with high level tech. Team Bonzia is another.
Most mercs would turn if they were offered more money with other pressing issues, like being destroyed if they stay. A pure money thing, might work if its alot more money. A few thousand c-bills wont do it.
Hell one known unit to ignore a very lucrative deal was the dragoons. Returning to the clans might have made them second class citizens again, but would have given them access to alot more then the innersphere could. Granted they would be denied access to the highest end of tech because they were freebirths, it would still be better then staying in the innersphere.
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Karagin
01/10/14 09:03 PM
24.243.178.124
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The Dragoons changed their ideas of what it was to be Clan and saw that humanity wasn't as cut and dry as the Clan's out take tried to make it and in all reality the Dragoons weren't a merc unit per-say, more along the lines of the Condor Legion Germany sent to Franco in the Spanish Civil War, they were a test bed, gain tactical info and recon sites for the invasion if it ever happens and to find lost things of the Star League.
One thing, unless the SO book changes, is that the mundane items of life are ignored by the "generic" rules which focus on parts, ammo and how much a mech cost, the same cost issue that was ignored when they allowed the WoB to build it's army,and transportation all of which is where the money goes for the mercs, nothing about the cost daily living things like food, rent etc...those are areas that eat away at a unit's funds as well as the cost of keeping things running and then there is the pay for each member of the unit.
So using the idea that a owner/commander would indeed replace or repair a mech, how many times would he be willing to do so with a hot head pilot before the cost gets to the point of not giving something back to the unit? Giving a mech like the Jimbo variant to a hot head pilot who is willing to hotdog it into an entire Galaxy...yeah not for long would a sane owner/commander do this.
And while the mech does give the unit an edge, it is a costly one that doesn't really offer them something that gains them contracts or even a real mention in any hiring hall. Mercs live and die by their reputations and what they bring to the table, a one trick card, which is what the Jimbo is doesn't give this unit anything to bargain with or truly offer an employer. And even with changes to how merc's are shown in the source books, funny thing is there doesn't seem to be any major change, they are still ruled by the c-bill and how far it will go.
Also if a GM allows the player characters to get all powerful then in my opinion he or she has lost control of the game secession and really is doing nothing but stroking the players ego.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/11/14 01:13 AM
66.74.101.135
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The point of wob being able to ignore the whole basis of the universe is why i dislike alot of the canon stuff.
Good examples are kia liao allard and phelen ward. Both had skills above and beyond most characters twice their age. And both had the natural aptitude in gunnery. This made it almost impossible for them to miss a target.
The clans I can see from being a new menace. They had the time and tech to expand the normal things, though I dislike the steps afterwards. Alot of that tech should have been created before the succession wars. Heap rounds being one of them.
With replacing a mech, I agree they wouldnt replace it time after time for a hot head, but some skilled warriors are given the dirty assignments and lose their mechs alittle more often then not. If the warrior has the money to upgrade himself, thats fine to. Yes, not all mercs have a nobility background that can support their mistakes.
We had one person make the mistake of letting his players get to powerful. He wrote a whole new game to counter that fact. It bites having to do so, but it looks like he was up to the challenge.
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