Karagin
12/31/13 12:46 PM
24.243.178.124
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So you are saying Ghostrider that is a group doesn't want to use something for what every reason they should not be allowed to do so since it means they aren't following canon?
I think you missed the idea of ROLE-PLAYING and given that the players are going to what they want no matter what the rules say and a good GM can adjust and move forward without being bogged down by the rules, which was and is my point and Cray's counter point is that the PTB have felt the need to try and cover everything under the sun by asking the players to share what found that works or doesn't, and again not everything will work for every group of players and the rules should be there as a guideline NOT a set in stone kind of thing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/13 01:21 PM
172.56.9.16
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I agree with Ghostrider most people are not going to dump thousands of dollars in buying every book published. Heck most people cant hope to be able to afford to do so. Even the people that do have every book are not going to remember everything in the books. The only people that will have a chance of doing so will have something with the books being published or have a photographic memory.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
12/31/13 11:18 PM
66.74.187.127
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Roleplaying is up to players and gm to find out. Some rules work for one campaign, but not others.
One example was someone using c3 tech with clan units. The players using innersphere tech, and not having ecm or anything of the sort, hated having the unit wiped out from having that combo. They liked it when they played the clans with it. The gm decided it was players vs clans with c3 until everyone decided to stop playing. Even the next group the gm was running gave up quickly.
They need to cover everything they can, so people can go from one game into another without worry they will have to start over. Weither the gm uses it is another story.
It has already been said that buying several books just to find out you need another one to cover one point. It is also annoying as hell to get one game system down, just to have to change the game play next year because of a new game system is being made, even before the current one is done.
Played a few games that rule changes werent told to players before a game begins. Some hurt badly, while others made things to easy. Having it in writing how things go helps alot on what to expect.
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Karagin
01/01/14 01:12 AM
24.243.178.124
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And again no rule set is going cover everything. Each group plays different, for every rule there are those groups that come up with a dozen or so variants on them that work for them, so what you are suggesting is that all of us send our home rules for every single rule just so we can have another rule book that tried to encompass everything, which invalidates your whole argument since you have pointed out that many of the players can't afford to keep buying a new rule every 9 months or so just because some players can't role play something or the GM can't use their imagination or make a educated guess as to a logical way around something that is an impasse to their game. I am just not following HOW any of this helps the average player by trying to cover every base, are we still even talking about Battletech or the RPG set in the same universe or are we suggesting that the game become like Star Fleet Battles with rules and sub-rules and sub-rules to the sub-rules, just so to cover every thing possible that players can come up with or have questions about?
Base rules cover HOW to play the game, what happens after that is up to the GM, if the players want to have super mechs and pilots then it's up to GM to make the game a challenge for them so as they aren't making him or her feel like it's a waste of time. Then again no GM is going to let a group of players start off with the best of the best. At least none that I have ever meet over the years in any game system.
The what happens even after this all encompassing rule book series is finally done (if that ever happens) and all of a sudden players have new issues with the rules, or the rules don't work for their situation? Are we going to see yet again another all encompassing rule book?
How many of us want to play with a GM who can't think out side of the rules to make the game fun verses one who can on the fly roll with the characters who take the third door on the left verse taking the one the GM wanted them to take? If asked how many are going to go with the first type vs the second?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/01/14 12:38 PM
68.190.197.104
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I'm not sure what you're suggesting from your posts, other than being able to alter rules at your table as you see fit. Which has always been a rule of BattleTech/MechWarrior, so is there really a disagreement here?
From your other conversations with me, you seem hell-bent on accusing others of trying to tell you what to do or restricting your freedom in some unknown manner. That seems more an issue than anything the developers, writers or other posters have suggested. If you want to make things up at your table, nobody is going to tell you not to. And nobody has, to my recollection.
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ghostrider
01/01/14 12:39 PM
66.74.187.127
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one book with all the rule changes isnt making everyone buy 20 books every 6 months isnt against trying to keep it affordable.
It seemed every new book comes out with yet another rule change, and books in the next few months will refer back to that rule that isnt in the main book.
And I agree with you about gms. It is up to them to decide what to do with the game. Alot do a decent job of filling in the gaps. Some couldnt figure out how to run anything but generic games. A few are able to create a whole universe on the fly.
The lack of having things common sense things covered makes me wonder if they want some logic in the game or not. The simple countermeasures, more then what i had come up with, need to be covered. Other things like why a fast mech traveling at say 10 hexes a round runs into a heavy woods, but yet doesnt take any damage as it slams into trees. Not gonna be able to dodge while moving that fast. Why that same woods prevents a jeep from moving thru it. Level ground being a given here. Just has the woods on it.
How do you handle a crawling mech? I believe the original rules said something about them not being able to, but yet the canon scenario book had them doing so. Same thing with a mech using its jets in a horizontal way, instead of the normal upward arc.
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Karagin
01/01/14 01:41 PM
24.243.178.124
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Tons of common sense issues with the rules, always has been, and I believe that is what their (TPTB) whole puprpuse of the core rule books was to keep things on a simple bases, but that doesn't seem to be coming over as a whole once you look at things.
And TigerShark, I am not saying anyone is trying to tell me what to do, I am saying that the idea that a single or series of rule books will cover everything player groups can come up with is crazy. Where did I say anyone was trying to tell me what to do at my table? Not seeing that in my posting. Try reading it again and then look back as the other comments made that if the idea of a section or whole book is to cover everything a group of play testers came up with then it is not going to work well because not every player who happens to play the game was there for the test and their questions or events that are not covered to their understanding or liking with in the rules will not be addressed and even sending the matter into TPTB to answer or explain only covers that event not one for the next group etc...and to try and do so ends up turn Battletech into another version of Star Fleet Battles, which given how you are saying it is me saying they are telling me what to do suggest you have either never heard of or know about Star Fleet Battles, or have not played that game at all. Go look into the game and it's numerous rule books and sub-rule sections and errata and sub-errata to the errata.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/01/14 02:17 PM
24.243.178.124
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And we are drifting WAY off topic, seeing how we were talking about mercs getting enough money to cover custom upgrades and then keeping them up and running.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/01/14 06:23 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
The whole refusal war. That had a mechwarrior video game attached to it, and some of the stuff that happened in it, seems to have made it to canon status. So how do they figure whats canon and whats not? Not everyone is rich enough to continue to buy the new material as it comes out.
Answer: nothing in the video game is canon. Don't even bother using the game as a reference, because it isn't a reference.
The line developers' formula for making video game material into canon is approximately this:
1) Was there a video game element that the players and writers liked? If yes, then move to step 2. Else, forget it.
2) Is there any upcoming publication that addresses the general time period of the video game? If yes, then move to step 3. Else, forget it.
3) Does the upcoming publication's topic something that would cover the video game material? If yes, then move to step 4. Else, forget it.
4) How much room is there in the publication to address video game material? Cut down the video game material to fit into available space and move to step 5.
5) Subject the publication's video game-derived content to a thorough continuity-, fact-, and play-testing editing process, because video games always suffer at least some detachment from mainstream canon. Move to step 6.
6) Publish the new book, which includes the first canon material derived from the game. The video game material itself is, of course, still non-canon.
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And who decides what canon rules are used in tournaments?
The tournament organizers. The default in the current corebooks is "any rule labeled 'tournament-legal'." That's currently the contents of Total Warfare and Tech Manual.
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Why cannt you use any canon rules?
That depends on the tournament organizers. By default, rules (like advanced- and experimental-grade rules) are excluded because they significantly alter the dynamic of the game and are less well-known to the referees/judges. However, some tournaments use whatever they want - sometimes specifically to have fun with the advanced and experimental rules.
It's not like there's a game police squad that will storm a tournament and burn its maps to the ground if that tournament uses rules other than tournament-level rules. 
Quote:
I dont know if they allow custom mechs,
Ask the tournament organizers or check their announcement(s) for the rule levels specified. A well-run tourney will tell folks in advance what to bring so you don't waste time at the tourney trying to print acceptable record sheets.
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but if they do, any mech made to fit the construction rules should be allowed. Otherwise it looks alot like discrimination.
Actually, it's more a matter of setting common ground rules that all participants are familiar with and are easily reviewed. Nothing bogs down a game's start-up like the guy who walks in with a 'Mech built with a load of experimental gear from a questionably canon publication and requires the organizers to spend half an hour double-checking your design's stats.
Meanwhile, a tournament that uses a strict set of rules and (commonly) only designs from the canon Record Sheet publications avoids all the muss and fuss. The designs have already been checked, the rules are well-known, and everyone's good to go in short order. That's not discrimination, that's just good tournament organization.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
01/02/14 12:48 PM
66.74.187.127
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back to the subject.
If mercs didnt make enough money to survive or even expand, there would not be any. Without mercs, alot of the houses raids would have started wars. Not only would it destroy any chances of deflecting blame, but that would also mean sending in house troops on missions that would be sending them to their deaths for very little gain.
It may be cheaper to get a damaged mech, and fix it up then it is to buy a new one. Consider finding a mech that house techs dont wanna work to fix, but leave it on a battlefield. Now a good tech would take parts from other otherwise worthless scraps and use the good parts there to fix some of the bad parts in another. Something simpler like 2 same model mechs taking a head shot on opposite sides. It is possible that parts from one would allow a rebuild of the other.
This is not to say that someone in the quartermaster hasnt 'lost' a shipment some wheres and sold the mechs on the black market. Yes, it does happen.
And the topic on this thread was originally about a mech design. The topic is so far off, that another step isnt gonna make that much of a difference.
Thanks for clearing up the tourney thing.
The games thing is still iffy. Either they knew what happened in the time line before it was made, or the writers for btech liked how the game took care of things, like natasha's death.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/08/14 09:40 AM
172.56.38.133
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How mercs should have worked was,
They form
They get into a battle
They disband and take off with their booty before the odds catch up with them.
A state really cant stand on mercenary forces.
Also its so easy to field a conscripted military army.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
01/08/14 01:47 PM
66.74.101.135
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Conscripted armies are great, in low tech worlds. Grabbing someone off the streets that has never driven say a backhoe, would not be able to do much with it. Now driving a tank and firing the weapon systems is even more of a problem.
As long as you pay more then anyone else, mercs will stand with you. You would be stupid to try and run an empire with just mercs. But the right ones can beat any conscription army, unless the are outnumbered by a large factor.
I would like to know why you think they would disband after a battle?
Also the odds will catch up with everyone sooner or later. Even elite house units get their butts handed to them from time to time.
Mercs normally get the crap jobs, so yes, they are more likely to be hurt then pet units.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/08/14 09:58 PM
208.54.5.174
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Do you consider China and Russia low tech militaries? Both have a Conscripted military and they supply a good part of the world with its advanced military hardware. You might want to look up on Wikipeda what countries have a Conscripted military you might be really surprised who has a Conscripted military that is not some back water tech state.
Using mercs long term is just a wast of state funds when a standing army is so much cheaper and you don't need to worry they will leave at a critical time because their contract expired. Military service is not all that well paid until you look at high ranking officers and even then they may be badly paid.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
01/09/14 12:43 AM
66.74.101.135
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Is it a waste of funds to hire someone to garrison a planet for less then what a single unit like a mech could cost? and you dont have to pay to fix it.
Conscription works. Now you have to train and equip your soldiers. How many people will trust a person with a multi million dollar peice of equipment that they never used before? Even a couple hundred thousand without training.
Now if that equipment can kill the user or others without the proper training?
With conscription, you do not know weither the soldiers will stay and fight, or run as soon as something goes boom.
And your example shows your contracts arent written well. You have a clause that keeps them fighting until the high command says its over.
The other part of that example about not being paid well. That is very true from conscription armies. They dont pay you well enough to die. In america, the pay isnt great for the army people, but its better then working for minimum wage. If it wasn't, no one would join. period.
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Karagin
01/09/14 06:19 AM
24.243.178.124
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And who says mercs will stand and fight? You don't know if the mercs will honor their contract. Battlefield realities could cause them to as we say in the military and not always in a good way, pop smoke and run like hell. Or what happens when the other side offers them more money to do nothing or to attack your side?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/09/14 01:07 PM
66.74.101.135
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That is very true. The only thing you have is their word. Once you get a reputation for running, you dont get hired. You also make sure the contract doesnt pay them until after the job is done.
There have been stories of merc switching, changing sides, as well as sacking the thing they were supposed to be guarding.
Same with the other direction, such as holding in the face of overwhelming odds.
You only find out once the situation comes up.
Mercs are less likely to be loyal to your cause then a house force.
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Karagin
01/09/14 06:50 PM
24.243.178.124
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Even a unit that runs or changes sides will find some one willing to hire them when they a truly expendable forces, we saw enough of this with Jihad or so we told that is part of the WoBs way of gaining troops maybe sorta kind of...but the point is mercs are a business and they WOULD NOT give a pilot a super tech mech who is the kind to go out and get it blown to scrap. That is not smart business sense.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/09/14 07:29 PM
66.74.101.135
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there are times when they would. Not often. Spec ops would be a good example of that today. Taking a 1.5 million dollar stinger on a mission, but using it to blow up a 20,000 dollar car would not be considered a good thing.
But yet, they would restock the ops team with another stinger because it may be needed on another mission.
Same with a chopper. Some missions it is almost assured it will be taken down, yet they will assign another one if it does. Seal team 6 lost one during the hit on bin laden. Do you think they didnt get a new one afterwards?
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Karagin
01/09/14 07:41 PM
24.243.178.124
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BAD comparison, mercs don't have limitless funds that are squeezed out of taxpayers, they have to buy everything from food, to meds, to parts, to paper etc...that is just to keep their people alive and all. Then you add in the cost of keeping their weapons and vehicles/mechs running as well moving them around, storing them etc...it's not the same saying spec ops team has their homeland giving them what they need to complete a mission, no matter the out come.
Mercs are NOT how Hollywood or playboy crap bags of the PMC you seen in Iraq or Afghanistan, most are living by the skin of their teeth and don't have the glamor or glory.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/09/14 10:05 PM
68.190.197.104
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Where are you getting this from, in-universe? Can you provide some citations? i.e.: Quote, page number, book.
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Karagin
01/09/14 10:29 PM
24.243.178.124
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The old Mercenary Handbook painted the picture of life as a merc, as do many of the novels prior to the rush to become high tech to face the Clans, as do many of the sourcebooks talking about mercs running instead of fighting, or failed in their operation and run since they ticked off their boss etc...Even the original rule book gave a write up of the merc units in the box set double sided book.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/09/14 10:59 PM
206.29.182.155
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Quote:
The other part of that example about not being paid well. That is very true from conscription armies. They dont pay you well enough to die. In america, the pay isnt great for the army people, but its better then working for minimum wage. If it wasn't, no one would join. period.
I suggest actually looking at what service personal are paid. A privet is paid well below min wage. The real perk to military service is the benefits. Other than some standard personal equipment the military supplies everything one needs. And even the perks are not all that great. If someone can afford to go to a non VA hospital they will. VA hospitals are not known for great medical care.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
01/09/14 11:04 PM
24.243.178.124
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I do pretty well on what I'm paid by the Army...then again I don't tend to spend all my money the second I get it either.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
01/09/14 11:55 PM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
The old Mercenary Handbook painted the picture of life as a merc, as do many of the novels prior to the rush to become high tech to face the Clans, as do many of the sourcebooks talking about mercs running instead of fighting, or failed in their operation and run since they ticked off their boss etc...Even the original rule book gave a write up of the merc units in the box set double sided book.
That's fine. Can you provide citations?
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ghostrider
01/10/14 12:00 AM
66.74.101.135
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Not all mercs turn and burn. If they have a good contract, it has an idemnity(sp) clause in there the reimburse them for equipment lost.
Now the example i gave was to show you that stupid mistakes are paid for time and time again. You said no one would give you an expensive peice of equipment if you lost it due to a mistake. I gave you an example of how wrong that is.
If a merc made that mistake and the co had to pay for it, then maybe they wouldnt get another crack. Then again, maybe they would.
One good example of that is in the canon books. The kell hounds explain why they were called in to help prince Ian davion escape the combine forces. One of the units on planet failed horribly during one assault, but was being built back up. It wasn't disbanned. The pilots that lived got new machines. Yes, it was a house unit. It wasnt the first time they got mauled either. They got new machines to replace the old ones.
Now your example of the va system. There are some good ones. The fact that they tend to be in states no one wants to live in causes issues. That example also explains why people turn to being a merc. They tend to get better perks from a merc unit then their own government will supply.
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Karagin
01/10/14 12:06 AM
24.243.178.124
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Hey Tigershark get the books read them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/10/14 12:09 AM
24.243.178.124
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For every good merc unit that follows it's contract there is going to be plenty who don't or who do their own thing. Many merc units went AWOL rather then face the Clans, even when the House agents were offering full repairs etc...and units that stay full to the letter of their contract aren't always the best to have when the game or dynamic changes, since they won't change with it because their contract says XYZ, not LMNO.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/10/14 12:14 AM
206.29.182.155
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Quote:
I do pretty well on what I'm paid by the Army...then again I don't tend to spend all my money the second I get it either.
And I bet your not an E2 either. At the age bracket I think you're at I would guess you are at least an E5 if not higher and at that pay scale you should be doing ok. No where as good as an officer but not to bad.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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TigerShark
01/10/14 12:22 AM
68.190.197.104
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Quote:
Hey Tigershark get the books read them.
I have. And I don't agree with your points since they're unfounded and not available in any of the books. I don't know where your information comes from, but it isn't from canon.
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ghostrider
01/10/14 12:24 AM
66.74.101.135
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Not hard to promise full repairs when the unit wont make it back. And it was even true of house units refusing to face the clans.
But it is correct that for every one good merc, there were dozens, if not hundreds that would disobey their first orders.
maybe we need to get nic to make a chat room for the boards. Seems im not the only one on right now.
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