ghostrider
02/25/14 06:44 AM
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I guess I need to ask this in its own thread.
In the crossroads alternative, does the clans and the innersphere have easy access to each others tech?
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Karagin
02/25/14 10:13 AM
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Retry should have present info in a thread about his group/alternate setting and then posted mechs etc...but that is my opinion only.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/25/14 11:42 AM
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Already did so in the Mirage thread.
From there:
Crossroads, a non-canon periphery faction, was formed when Aleksandr Kerensky found a planet that could sustain some life in the moderately deep periphery. It couldn't sustain the entire fleetsworth of people at a first glance. Those who wanted to get off most were allowed to get off, and the majority of the fleet continued to make up what the Clans are today. Aleksandr, for reason known only to himself, deleted the charts to the discovered planets, so it's whereabouts were unknown until recently.
Anyways, not long after the fleet's departure, large He3 deposits were discovered on a nearby moon of the planet. With a couple jumpships Kerensky left behind for the colonists, they were able to jump to larger periphery nations, selling He3 and gaining money, tourists, and new colonists in hope for a better life. Before long the planet, who the origional colonists dubbed "Crossroads" as it really started it's incline when it became the main periphery trading planet of He3.
Those who know about the planet sometimes call it the "last remnant of the star league". Military technologies are up with Clan quality weapons, but the planet is not afraid to utilize technologies such as TAG, C3, and artillery as the "honorable" clans are.
Both the inner sphere and most of the descendants of Aleksandr Kerensky were unaware of the existence of this nation until 3098, where an unknown civillian of Crossroads revealed the location to several potential IS factions in hopes of selling them his products. Though this could open new trading opportunities(not so much with the Clans as the IS), most believe this means it's only a matter of time before someone attempts to plunder the planet.
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ghostrider
02/25/14 04:34 PM
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How did they acquire the tech?
Did they research it?
Did they steal it?
Did they trade for it?
I am curious on how the small nation managed to get the top of the line, top secret techs to produce themselves.
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Retry
02/25/14 05:13 PM
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Short answer is researched during a war with some periphery planets.
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Cray
02/25/14 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Anyways, not long after the fleet's departure, large He3 deposits were discovered on a nearby moon of the planet. With a couple jumpships Kerensky left behind for the colonists, they were able to jump to larger periphery nations, selling He3 and gaining money, tourists, and new colonists in hope for a better life. Before long the planet, who the origional colonists dubbed "Crossroads" as it really started it's incline when it became the main periphery trading planet of He3.
BT's fusion engines run on plain hold protium hydrogen, not helium-3. The last time He-3 was of interest was for primitive fusion engines in the 2020-2080 period, after which the Western Alliance was able to build fusion reactors that could run on the H-1 isotope. See Tech Manual's "'Mech Tech Primer" page 35, or the much older Explorer Corps.
Incidentally, how would they get tourists in the Deep Periphery? It's a region where an inhabited planet is lucky to see a JumpShip once every few decades, and they might only carry dozens of passengers.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
02/25/14 08:10 PM
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not to mention being in the middle of pirate territory.
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Cray
02/25/14 08:22 PM
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Quote:
not to mention being in the middle of pirate territory.
Actually, the Deep Periphery is too sparsely settled and undeveloped to be worth pirate raids. Pirates home in on places where they can loot enough gear to keep their 'Mechs, JumpShips, and DropShips running (and whatever other plunder is available). That's generally the Periphery near the Inner Sphere, where's there's enough JumpShip traffic (and even HPG traffic) to spread word of a system's vulnerability. The Deep Periphery is so unknown that pirate would have to blunder through thousands of unmapped star systems to find a small colony of farmers who haven't had a working JumpShip in centuries.
But the flip side of that is that Crossroads is in an economic wasteland. There shouldn't be much traffic to bother them - merchants, tourists, or pirates.
Of course, that can be fixed with a few more alternate history Deep Periphery colonization missions, like Interstellar Players 3's "Outpost 27."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
02/25/14 08:35 PM
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I was pointing out that the chance of running into a pirates home base was much greater, since it is sparsely populated.
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Retry
02/26/14 12:28 AM
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Would I be correct to assume that simple periphery powers would still use primitive fusion engines from the 3020-3080 period if they could get them?
The jumpships left behind by Aleksander and the colonists provided the transportation. Mind you, not for no profit gain.
At which point a larger periphery nation attacked Crossroads. I'm still thinking about what I will say as why.
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ghostrider
02/26/14 01:47 AM
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Just pirates in general would hit it. The large ones are just a bonus.
I was wondering how a single world could keep up with the advances of realms with hundreds of worlds with resources. Both the clans way of making items, such as the launchers and smaller things like the endosteel, while keeping up with things like the stealth armor of the capellan confederation. The clans would definately use some of those things, since they do use the ecm.
The ability to manufacture both into runs of mechs if you are trying to buy those items, sounds far fetched. The innersphere should be able to make all clan tech by the jihad, but can't. Why would a single world be able to do so?
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ghostrider
02/26/14 02:13 AM
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Actually thinking about it, the crossroads would have been a clan target once they were known.
Thinking like a clansman, they are a disgrace to the great Kerensky vision.
They are cowards that disserted the fleet to pursue their selfish objectives.
There is no way the jumpship lacking exodus would leave any behind to mutineers. They had left behind hundreds even thousands of people because they lacked transport.
The Prinz Eugen (page 9 of the clan wolf sourcebook) incident shows what they DID do to people that thought they could get out of the fleet.
Now this might work somewhat had you tried to use the clan wolverine refugees that had clan tech when they left, but even that tech was outdated.
I do grant that crossroads is an alternative time line, but it should some continuity on how it was made. And logic on how it got all the stuff it has.
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Karagin
02/26/14 06:25 AM
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Logic doesn't always apply well in alternate timelines and such since someone will always want more of the original in there.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/26/14 10:20 AM
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I am trying to modify the largest IS and clan powers as little as possible. I am trying to only modify the periphery for the most part.
The drop off was not a mutiny. Think of it as a sort of backup site that the fleet could go tour things weren't going well that was never used.
I am using the assumption that the number of worlds has little to nothing to do with technological advancement.
Crossroads makes mostly BA and tanks. They are easier to make en masse than mechs.
And in fact the clans will have made Crossroads a target. The following conflict is the center of the series of skirmishes.
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ghostrider
02/26/14 04:08 PM
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one suggestion would be a jumpship core failure, but no warship. The fleet would not leave that behind. This would be true with a starlord or monolith jumpship.
Would suggest the tramp, and say the coil ring problem was never fixed before the star league fell. The people were volenteers that stayed behind to see if they could fix it while the rest of the fleet moved on.
That gives you access to 1 jump ship and 4 dropships.
I doubt they would leave dropships like the excalibur, fortress, mammoth, and such.
As for number of planets, you forget you need resources for research.
It's the number of people that can do the research here that is an issue.
The clans had thousands if not tens of thousands of scientists working on projects to come up with what they did.
The innersphere had alot more, probably tens of thousands.
People are needed in support jobs, and not everyone could be a scientist.
The alternative story has a single planet that can out research the capellan confederation? I can see some research, but not be able to keep up with all the others. Maybe drop most of the tech for anything but the battle armor.
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Retry
02/26/14 04:34 PM
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I did say jump ship right?
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ghostrider
02/26/14 06:29 PM
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you said jump ships. Plural.
Most people would say they were the monoliths or starlords because the large dropship capacity.
I know some would try to use the cameron warship since it had problems as well.
But the main thing is the lack of people to produce the scientist needed as well as the technicians and engineers to research the projects to keep up with either clan or innersphere. And that includes the newer tech as well.
Comstar on earth might be a good comparison. They have the researchers, and the resources plus the other labs required to upgrade technology, and the didn't do a whole lot. By compareson, the wob upgraded the c3 relatively quickly, but that is one thing.
The tech the colonists would be looking at would be terraforming, and food production increase, and aerospace technology. The power suits make sense as well since they can be adapted to hazmat suits.
But working on things like endosteel that is as compact as the clans isn't likely. That requires orbital facilities, which require more workers then they SHOULD have had. It also requires more then just welding some metal together.
But as I am trying to point out. The lack of people would prevent the research of all clan and innersphere tech.
You would be on par with the periphery for tech if you were raiding for it.
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Retry
02/26/14 06:43 PM
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Ah.
Well, a jumpship isn't a warship. You talking about warships confused me.
The periphery war almost obliterated Crossroads, they needed to get the upper hand in technology to make up for their lack of numbers. The advanced equipment was created out of necessity.
The Alt. History fluff is that the colonists consisted a large part as engineers and scientists and such, who had the know-how to create star-league level equipment and only needed time to set up factories to create Terra-level standard of living, and later converted them to create tanks. Though such refitting took time as well, as shown in the first Charger MBT, the Mk.I with a heavy rifle main gun.
(Note that very few of my own mech designs have Endo-Steel at all anyways)
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Cray
02/26/14 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Would I be correct to assume that simple periphery powers would still use primitive fusion engines from the 3020-3080 period if they could get them?
Nope. It's only 2080AD technology that enables the use of protium fusion, and the basic idea would be widely available because every single interstellar colony was founded after the invention of the protium-fueled fusion reactors.
Early interstellar colonies (let alone later ones) weren't going to use a reactors that ran on rare, difficult-to-acquire isotopes, either. Deuterium separation requires lots of energy and large facilities, while breeding tritium (either for tritium or to produce helium-3) ain't trivial either. Meanwhile, Tech Manual notes a 'Mech's fusion reactor can be refueled by piss. (It has water filters and electrolyzers.)
"Primitive" BattleMech and fighter engines date to the early 2400s, so they're the descendants of 300 years of protium-fueled reactor designs. Per the rules, even the lowest tech level of support vehicle fusion engines run on plain hydrogen.
Finally, protium-fueled reactors are also going to be a lot different under the hood than D-T, D-D, or D-He3 reactors because of the difficulty of fusing protium, so after centuries of building and using only protium-fueled reactors, no one in the Periphery is ever going to have known of or seen reactors fueled on alternate isotopes other than as a history book's footnote.
So, again: nope, no He3-fueled reactors in the Deep Periphery.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Retry
02/26/14 07:29 PM
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I'll have to modify the backstory then.
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Cray
02/26/14 08:46 PM
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Quote:
I'll have to modify the backstory then.
The place has plenty of other things to offer that are absent in the Deep Periphery:
1) Being able to sell fusion reactors and water filters would make it a god.
2) JumpShips and HPGs, which are pretty much AWOL.
3) Medicine.
4) Weapons.
5) People. To support and develop advanced tech, it must have a very large population - in the hundreds of millions if not larger - so it'll be have lots of manpower to help out other planets, lots of planets.
Crossroads doesn't need a rare isotope to make it rich and valued.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (02/26/14 08:47 PM)
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Retry
02/26/14 08:51 PM
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Noted. Thanks.
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ghostrider
02/26/14 10:44 PM
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the tramp jumpship was a star league design that the fwl was trying to ressurect. In the tro is said the design had problems with the jump ring coils. Thought it might work.
As for keresky letting go a large chunk of engineers and scientist just because they didn't want to go is against all military thought. You will need them once you are at the destination. It would be like leaving every fighting unit back and taking just the families.
Now needing the tech, and being able to actually research it are 2 different things. Without buying the items, or raiding/stealing the tech, you will not just be able to research how to build lighter missle launcher, or how to shield the fusion reactors with a smaller unit.
I could see maybe 3 lines of tech being equal to the clans, and that isn't saying all lasers are upgraded.
Now cray has stated something more clearer then I did. You need people to do this.
In less then 400 years, You have built up a world that is all industry and research labs, that some of the tech requires orbital facilities to do. The endo steel was just an example of something that requires zero g.
The one big problem with making items for sale in the periphery is someone WILL track it back to where it was made. Granted, star league tech is much better then the periphery tech is, but the numbers might make the difference. A single company of star league mechs would not stop a battalion of 3025 mechs from taking or destroying your factories.
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Karagin
02/26/14 11:04 PM
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Hey the WoB managed to do a lot in their mere 21 years of being a desperate and separate entity and this was before the "hidden worlds" line of thinking was even mentioned so maybe a small group can do a lot if the writer(s) want them to...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/26/14 11:13 PM
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Wob had terra. That was a store house of knowledge and they had a HUGE resource base. Not talking 20k people. They also had the fwl backing them before they took terra. I would bet alot of their 'advances' were comstar research that wob finished. And they never did say how much of wob was still in comstar when the 'broke' away.
Alot of the tech they came out with was nothing more then modifying existing tech.
Like computers now a days. They have the next 3 upgrades sitting in warehouses just waiting to put it on the market when sales slow some. They make more money that way. Instead of jumping from say a 386 pentium 2 to the new quad processor 3 ghrz in one jump, they put out a dozen upgrade in between.
And as for the last statement. When it comes to the writers, they can have rainbows shoot out from where the sun doesn't shine, and change things around to make sure they can do so, but you can't on the drop of a hat.
I would think the next big thing in battle tech is running into the aliens that abducted the kerenskys and camerons.
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Karagin
02/26/14 11:17 PM
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Without rehashing a dead horse having Terra isn't going to given them enough strength to do what they did. Point is they need more to do things. A small set of colony worlds would not last a week against any Clan or IS power.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/27/14 12:15 AM
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wob had factories in the Free Worlds League. Granted, I'm not sure if they state that in the updates or anywhere else. I didn't buy anything canon past the clans.
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Karagin
02/27/14 06:15 AM
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Lots of things about the WoB seemed to be a bit over the top, the point I was going for is IF the writers want something to happen they will justify it and allow it even if it doesn't follow the logic of the game's own universe and rules.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/27/14 11:59 AM
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What? You mean the fleet of warships that popped out their backsides that comstar didn't know about is only in the books and not in the universe of canon? But yet somehow they refer to the fleet to show how they were able to do things like hit the dragoons that DID have warships.
Tell me it isn't so.
Like when the fedcom civil war started and victor had a gauss rifle bounce up into the cockpit and it didn't kill him magic? I was under the impression that if the head armor and internal structure was blown away in one shot, the pilot died.
Still. I started this thread to figure out how even a star system could our research the clans and the innersphere as a whole. It was less then 400 years to do so.
As I said, I could see if they stole or bought alot of it, but the ability to buy and make are not one and the same. The arguement on why the innersphere has not made the half weight lrm launchers very well fits this set up.
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Retry
02/27/14 03:23 PM
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The original colonists come from the same group that eventually developed clan tech grade equipment.
I think allows for a reasonable enough conclusion that it could be done.
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