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ghostrider
09/25/15 12:22 AM
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Karagins suggestion of taking out the warships of the innersphere does give me another loop hole in the jihad.
Why didn't WOB destroy the ship yards in all the successor states except those freindly to them?
I mean forcing everyone to rely on them for ships would be the ultimate answer to they running the innersphere. With their use of nukes, that would stop any sort of organized resistance to them, and with the state of mind they were in, would support the idea.
Bombing Tharkad and New Avalon would support that type of thinking. Remove warships, and even jump ships means NO one will be able to stop you in a few years.
Or is that the next set of attacks to reduce the innersphere to using stone axes?
Akirapryde2006
09/26/15 09:51 PM
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I know the line of questions and comments made have been harsh on Cary. But don't the authors of the Jihad era owe answers to those who support and buy their product.

I mean after all, we are the customers who buy the source books and novels. The success or failure of this game rests within the hands of the fans.

Cary, all I want to know is how these plot holes are explained. I don't mean to disrespect you or your work. Please do not take these questions or comments this way.
ghostrider
09/27/15 03:16 AM
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Cray has been nice enough to be here to explain what some of the people doing the story.
Now I take it, they are not overly concerned with the story line so much as just getting people to play the game. For some that is all they care about. How to make units and fight with them. Others get more into the history and backgrounds.
I know I said it before, but they need conflict to keep the game from stagnating. The biggest issue I can see is the main houses are too entrenched. It limits some options. It may be they should splinter the entire houses as a means to promote the total warfare idea, minus the nukes.
If I recall, there was supposed to be 10 states that formed just as the star league fell. Maybe they should promote that idea. Yes, some of the states would be screwed. But why would the ruler of Defiance allow Tharkad to order their forces around? I know Skye has tried to rebel, but what if Hesperus rebelled against everyone? All the house have major issues that could be exploited as people just get tired of the main houses screwing up?

I do agree that the people with the story line, should try to explain what is up, but not sure how much they really care. Oil companies come to mind with this. They claim they don't gouge the customers, but they big ones make from 4 to 14 billion dollars every quarter. Not per year, but per 3 months. They can't survive without subsidies from the government, yet profits are above and beyond all costs. A little off subject, but an example.
CrayModerator
09/27/15 08:28 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Now you said WoB hit the fed com capitals in 3067, but didn't get into the jihad until 3070. Who was running the jihad during that time? Maybe I am missing something here as well.



Earlier in this discussion, I gave you an itemized, numbered list of the wars happening during the early Jihad. Please refer to that to see what conflicts kept the Houses deeply occupied for years at a time. I also described WoB's activities during the early Jihad in that post. It wasn't absent, but it certainly wasn't trying to conquer the universe. WoB was a minor player until about 3070. See my earlier comparison to a bar fight.

After the Jihad ended, WoB got vilified for the entirety of the Jihad, much in the way Germany got vilified for World War One. World War One and the Jihad were much more complex events than, "Wob / Germany tries to conquer everyone." However, that's how events got spun by MWDA, and it's the version picked up by the internet.

Quote:
That would be saying the the united nations is in effect so we are not worried that Iran is looking ot make nukes, or that north Korea has them.



No, in 3067, WoB was not North Korea in the eyes of the Houses. It was not Iran. It was a splinter group from ComStar and operating a legitimate financial and communications business. It made sane noises about its operations in the Chaos March - it was a peacekeeper and, for the most part, it was relying on Terrans to make peace there rather than forcing everyone to worship toasters.

In 3067, if you a House intelligence agency had captured every single WoBblie and hooked them up to a brain scanner to find out about the Jihad, that House agency would've learned what they already knew by other means: there was no plan to fight the Inner Sphere. There was no war planned to bring the Houses to their knees. WoB was going to do three Houses, if not all five Houses, a favor by trying to destroy the Clans.

The Houses considered that, nodded, and let WoB do its thing.

Before 3067, WoB wasn't North Korea. It wasn't Iran. It was a kooky splinter of ComStar that presented the Inner Sphere no threat in the opinion of the Houses, and - here's the writer insider secret (which is actually published in Jihad Secrets) - it had no plans for the Jihad as the Jihad manifested.

And that's why WoB is such a fumbling cluster **** in the early years of the Jihad: it didn't plan for the Jihad. It planned for a war with the Clans. It doesn't conquer much, it gets kicked off New Avalon twice with little effort, it only raids Tharkad once, it wasn't ready or planning a war with the Inner Sphere. It was a minor player among a half dozen border conflicts much larger than WoB's actions.

If you think WoB suddenly sprang 200 regiments on the Inner Sphere in 3067 and tried to conquer and destroy everything, then you're not actually referring to the published, canonical Jihad. It didn't happen that way. See Dawn of the Jihad, Jihad Hotspots 3070, JHS:3072, and Jihad Secrets.

Quote:
Am I missing something, or does it sound weird that the great houses would not be preparing for someone building up arms even if their is such a thing as the star league in effect?



Do you shoot your neighbor just because he bought a gun? The police get grumpy if you randomly shoot people for owning guns.

As I've said several times in this thread, the Houses took a good look at WoB's military AND its motivations. House intelligence agencies saw the WoB military build up and wondered what WoB was up to. They talked to WoB defectors, they monitored WoB signals, and they infiltrated spies into WoB.

The conclusion was, "WoB is planning a fight with ComStar and the Clans."

Speaking out of character, from a writer's perspective, that's what WoB was planning in 3067: maybe a little follow on rumble with ComStar (or not, WoB was in a good mood in 3067), and they were definitely spoiling for a fight with the Clans.

Since this was not a problem for the Houses, they didn't act on. In fact, three Houses - Steiner, Kurita, and Davion - would've been happy to see WoB and the Clans go at it.

Please refer to my prior posts to see why everyone looked so surprised when the Jihad happened. You can also refer to Jihad Secrets, p. 11-14. Basically, WoB didn't know it was going to happen like it did. No one saw the new Star League being voted out of existence.

Quote:
I will have to read the older books for the information. I may be getting some novels mixed up with the canon books. The developers really need to get the writers to stick with the canon story line.



Just because you're hearing new information here doesn't mean the storyline didn't changed. And the writers had little to do with the plot.

The Jihad didn't change, not from the time WizKids, FanPro, and CGL started writing it in the mid-2000s. The entire "Jihad Hotspots" series and all BattleCorps fiction about the Jihad (as written by FanPro and CGL) used a single, consistent internal timeline that was written before the first book was published. Any JHS book or fiction published about the Jihad was reviewed by over a dozen continuity reviewers who were working from the master timeline, and those reviewers included the developers.

What's changed is that the detailed events of the Jihad are now available and disputing what people have been sharing on the internet for some time. What's interesting is that people who dislike the Internet's version of the Jihad are now staunchly defending that incorrect version when, really, it didn't happen like they're saying.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
09/27/15 11:59 PM
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So really Cray what you are telling us that this was all about getting rid of uber units aka the Dragoons, and removing the weapons race that was slowing the game down...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
09/28/15 02:32 AM
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Where does it state the WOB was after the clans?
And who besides them were involved in the Jihad?

And no, you don't shoot the neighbor that buys a gun, but you sure the hell set up incase they decide to use it. And that is IF you KNOW the person. If you don't then you really get ready incase they go off the deep end.

I can understand some people having read things on the internet. I am asking questions since the logic behind a lot of it seems flawed and pointed towards things like removing royalty names and units.
Things like they weren't planning to attack the great house, but they hit the 2 that were part of the fedcom. That alone sounds wrong and backwards. Hitting them would definitely caused a response. But then that was the era I stopped buying the stuff. The fedcom civil war was the last novels I read until the dark ages.
And hitting New Avalon twice?
Karagin
09/28/15 06:21 AM
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Ghostrider, I asked a lot of the same questions, the answers I got was they had Terra and the hidden worlds and that solved almost all of their issues and if that didn't, then they had the money from the FWL and what they stole from other companies. Seems that if those stock answers don't stop you from questioning things then, at least back in the day, you were labeled a troublemaker and several of the buddies and friends of TPTB would attack you till either you quit Sarna or you quit the game all together, plenty of the old flame wars threads to see what went on, and while you are right there are holes in the logic of the WoBs attacks, the one thing that is very clear is a lot of the Jihad storyline seems to be patched together as if it's two different plot lines, but that could just be me and what I see.

The FedSuns was the Golden Child of the BT universe, so blasting that one in to ruin always seems to be the best thing for the bad guys in the game.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Akirapryde2006
09/28/15 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

the one thing that is very clear is a lot of the Jihad storyline seems to be patched together as if it's two different plot lines, but that could just be me and what I see.



That does make more sense. Its like two people writing the plot lines and not really communicating how they are reaching the over all story ending. As I read through the plots, it really saddened me to see how the Fed Com was ripped apart and then torn to shreds. I knew that a Civil War was always in the making. In fact when you look back in to the books covering the Clan invasion, you can see this slowly building. During the Second Star League and the Refusal War the dye was cast. But the entire time, I don't think the original authors at the time ever wanted to see the FedCom torn a part the way it was at the end of the FedCom Civil war.

Quote:
Karagin writes:

The FedSuns was the Golden Child of the BT universe, so blasting that one in to ruin always seems to be the best thing for the bad guys in the game.



The FedSuns were the Golden Child based on their ethnic background. When you look back at the original house books and the history, the Houses were more set up like modern nations we have today. Two House from Europe, two houses from Asia and the FWL was the Americas. I never really agreed that this would be how humanity would travel to the stars but it did seem to work and more importantly, flow.

As for hidden planets. I find this the most unbelievable bit of rubbish. Okay where are said planets? Oh yes, they are hidden planets so no one has to point at a map and say "here they are." But if these worlds were within two jumps of Terra, these habitable worlds would have been settled by the Terran Alliance during its raise to power and colonization period. During this period (as found in the Star League Source Book Page 8) sum "100 Human-Colonized Worlds spread across a sphere of 80 light years in diameter." After other Grand Surveys, this number would continue to grow. It is my belief that after what a hundred years of active, explosive colonization efforts that ever habitable world near Terra was colonized.

Is it possible after the fall of the First Star League and the Terran Hegemony that a world slipped through the cracks. Sure, it is possible. But during the succession wars, Comstar worked very hard to find these worlds. If they found one and decided to keep it secret (which is possible noting Comstar's love for secrets), then you have your hidden world. This world would have to be in the Periphery and not within the core of the Inner Sphere. There would simply be to many chances of the world being discovered by the hundreds of military units attempting to pass through the area after over three centuries of warfare. These units attempting to move in secret would have searched heavily for healthy stars to recharge at while staying clear of populated worlds. This would have limited their chances of detection while on raiding missions.

But here is the problem with a hidden WoB world and how it turns to rubbish.

Anything WoB knows, Comstar would also know. After all they had access to all the same information up to the mid 3050's. During this time, there are a number of references of Comstar making clear attempts to watch WoB closely (as cited in the Comstar Source Book, and is the reason why I found the Fall of Terra so hard to accept. But that is a leap of faith I was willing to take). If WoB attempted to use a "hidden world" to build up its military, especially after the fall of Terra Comstar would have noticed. The Authors of the Jihad Era would like us to forget that Comstar still had ROM. Sure they took a beating in the fall of Terra. But that was their Headquarters. As seen during the novels of the era of the Great Refusal War, ROM played a key role in many Inner Sphere operations.

But okay, lets take this leap of faith that ROM was otherwise preoccupied to pay attention to their own rivals. No other House Intelligence group noticed? Oh wait, they did notice. Just didn't think that this was important. Wait? building up a secret force would not be a sign of trouble after WoB used Nukes on Gibson (which Marik knew about and so did the FedComs). After their military take over of Terra and their growing influence across the Chaos March. I am sure that the warning from the Wolf's Dragoons fell upon deaf ears as well (citing how the Dragoons banded a group of merc commands to oppose the Dragoons in the Chaos March). But then there was the WMD attacks on Outreach and still no one thought that this radical group was a threat just yet.

Can someone please tell me how the House Lords would have not considered this a growing threat. Can anyone please explain to me how they would not have seen this as a reason to band together (like they did with the Clans) and smash the WoB before they attacked the Fed Com Capitals.

I mean just look at the time lines of this era. October 15th, (according to the Jihad Hot Spots: 3070, pp. 11-13, "Jihad Timeline" and Blake Ascending, pp. 171-173, "Jihad Timeline" Cited this website), WoB launched an attack on Outreach using Merc Units (BTW I am not even going to waste my breath on explaining how the Wolf's Dragoons had built up the SDS of Outreach using Clan tech which was cited in more than one FASA Source book/Novel).

But we are expected to ignore the fact that WoB was behind this attack or consider it not a major threat because there was so much else going on (remember that artificially created prefect storm). Then for reason beyond my own understanding of why, the Major House Lords decide to withdraw from the Second Star League over a month later. Despite this growing threat in the heart of the Inner Sphere or the artificially created prefect storm that is growing around them. It just doesn't make sense!

Akira
ghostrider
09/28/15 12:02 PM
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I can see hidden worlds not being habitable in the normal sense. Everything under ground or in domes. The fact none of the houses found any of them as they searched for more resource would be an issue to believe.

I find Comstar having issues finding most of them a far stretch. They had the comms system, and alot of data from star league. Which is crap, since they would have had access to a lot of the locations for caches as well. I believe they grabbed some, but that was novel information.

I agree that it is rather hard to swallow that the houses did not believe the threat with all the attacks and BANNED weapons use WOB used even before the main strike.

But that also brings up another point from another thread. Why build clan weapons if they were so expensive to build in the innersphere? Were the Dragoons that rich as to be able to afford the costs of making them? (cough, items not being made in IS, cough).

And now. What it to prevent the worlds from building the SDS systems? I would think New Avalon would be one of the first as they have been attack twice by WOB. And I doubt that story line is done. I would expect them to come back soon.

There is one point I will make about an sds on outreach and why it may not have worked. I don't know if the invaders had come into the system after they were known attackers, or if they just started the strike from the ground. It was the merc capital at the time, so it is possible the invaders were grounded already. Still. You would think they would have had a great defense set up for such an attack.
This does circle back to their attack on mars. If they had one up, why would they think the HQ system of WOB/Comstar would not have theirs working? That is like saying the UN forgot nations outside of that organization, have nukes, nerve gas, and commit atrocities semi regularly.
Akirapryde2006
09/29/15 12:07 PM
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You know, there is another possible reason why a faction would have been fooled by the WoB. However the fact that the Authors didn't consider this in their arguments makes this highly unlikely. Also, it would only work on one faction.

Dusan Popov was a heroic spy during the second world war. The man should be (if wasn't) the real world model of James Bond (Yeah 007). This man tricked the Nazis in to funding most of the British Counter Intelligence. (Supposedly) Warned the US of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor months before the attack occurred. And played a key role in the success of Operation Overlord.

Could the WoB had such a spy working for them. Yes, this is very possible and could have explained a lot of the success of the WoB throughout the Jihad. However the level of cunning that comes from a man like Mr. Popov is that of a free thinking clever individual. The kind of thinking and spirit that is normally discouraged by organizations such as the WoB. Even if they had a few spies like this, it is highly unlikely that they had all the Inner Sphere powers fooled and tricked.

Prior to the Jihad, the Inner Sphere powers were still talking to themselves. At least most of them. Something like this would not have added up and would have triggered flags.

I wonder if the authors were looking for in the Jihad Era books was something in terms of the 9-11 attacks to turn the readers completely away from the WoB. If this was the original goal, then less military style attacks and more small scale high causalities style attacks would have been more appropriate. This would have been more believable and would have given the authors the kind of war that they wanted.

As some of the major powers were fighting across the Chaos March in Vietnam/Afgan style bloody conflicts this would have left openings for other powers to make attacks of opportunities against rivals. Would you have seen the level of military conflicts, in my opinion, yes. Allow me to explain.

During the insurgent style conflicts, the enemy (WoB) would not have to deploy many forces to tie down a larger number of Allied forces (Federated Suns, Lyran Commonwealth and Comstar). As the Allied causalities start to mount popular support of the war could slip (as seen during the Vietnam conflict).

WoB would not need a massive military built on hidden worlds. They could summon up their faithful on worlds across the Chaos March. A lone gunman with a machine gun could tie down a platoon for hours making a patrol take painfully long. This gunman wouldn't have to oppose the Allies from moving in to an area. Instead he could strike out after the main force moved on, forcing the holding unit to draw in more resources as seen during the all major conflicts across human history.

Could the Jihad have worked? yes I think it could have. But not how the authors created it. Which brings me to another issue. Case White, and the Comstar fleet. It took me some time to address this cause I wasn't completely sure. But I searched through my books regarding the the battle of Tukayyid. No where does it support the level of warships that the authors of the Jihad used during operation Case White.

Now I am sure some might suggest that these ships were hidden in the Explorer Corps. In fact, in the Comstar Source Book (Page 45) the role of the Explorer Corps was mission was Diplomacy rather than Conquest. To this end, "Dropships were only lightly armed, as were the crews." So there is little chance that such a large fleet existed in the Explorer Corps. I could find no reference to this massive fleet in any of the Clan Invasion/Refusal War Source materials/novels.

Lets go back to the Comstar Source Book (Page 46) and the Tripitz Affair. Comstar didn't send a warship to destroy the Tripitz. Instead they sent a jumpship and fighters. It states that the Taurians learned on an "Unknown Jumpship" not strange or large. They knew enough that the ship was a Jumpship and not a warship which they had first hand contact with the Tripitz (a Black Lion Battle-cruiser). This was one of the first recorded operations of the ComGuards. Which reflects in 2987, the ComGuards were still in their forming stages. While Comstar had the means, they had not fully developed their offensive military might.

During this period, the flagship of Comstar Pride of Blake was a Jumpship not a warship (Cited Source Comstar Source Book, Page 47).

In the novels governing the Refusal War, Comstar added four warships to Task Force Serpent. In such a critical mission and with so many more resources available to them why not add more ships to the mission? During the battle of Terra (between Comstar and WoB in 3058) A Dante Class warship, the Narbonne arrived to defend the Titan Shipyards. It was heavily damaged. This gave hint of another battle within a jump from Terra. Okay so there was a secret fleet somewhere. So far according to the novels this is supported.

In the Field Manual: Free Worlds League, p. 116, WoBS Blake's Redemption and Deliverance raided both Ross 248 AND Luyten 68-28 anchorages. Both were Comstar anchorages and home to two separate Comstar Fleets. TWO WoB ships conducting two raids on two facilities against a total of eleven warships at Ross 248 (not counting supporting defending fighters/dropships) and twelve warships at Luyten 68-28 (not counting supporting defending fighters/dropships). (Note: I don't have either book so I am only citing this site sources Ross-248 and Luyten 68-28 )

Seriously? Two WoB warships carried out these raids? With such wonder warships no wonder why WoB was so successfully. Might as well the all the other players in the Inner Sphere and Clan space to pack it in and go home. There is no stopping the WoB now!

I do believe that Comstar had a handful of a warships. But the size of fleet that is suggested in Case White is insane. The fact that such a large fleet didn't take a larger role in the defense of Terra or during the Refusal War only proves that this fleet in Case White is nothing more than a fabrication of the Authors for the sake of grand storytelling.

Akira
ghostrider
09/29/15 12:34 PM
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Yes, misdirection would definitely be used. The one person that was providing information to the IS forces attacking WOB was thought as one of those spys when they took heavy damage to a few attacking task forces.
What I find as bs in this, is the houses would not have stopped operations against WOB even if they became allies. History has too many instances of Allies turning on each other. Without major history behind them, WOB was just another player in the game.

Now I know there were references to Comstar having a fleet of warships in the earlier books, and had the units for their comguard units. As for deploying them, I suggested in another thread, training them to use the non standard formations would have slowed down their deployments.
Now I can see not showing your hand by deploying your hidden forces for all to see.
And since they did have the Titan shipyards, it is possible to have built more warships in the years they were in power, or had refurbished the ones in the scrap yards they had, this still does not sound right.

As I said, Sol system and those around it has alot of commercial and even military traffic flowing thru there over the ages. I am sure the houses did searches of the systems looking for resources. A warship is hard to hid in an asteroid or other gravity body. I would need to look it up again, but there is one place in one of the tro's that explained comstars warship fleet. Not a listing but told of a few things.
Akirapryde2006
09/29/15 01:20 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Now I can see not showing your hand by deploying your hidden forces for all to see.
And since they did have the Titan shipyards, it is possible to have built more warships in the years they were in power, or had refurbished the ones in the scrap yards they had, this still does not sound right.



I don't doubt Comstar had warships. There has been enough references throughout the books to support this. When Anastasius Focht offered up Comstar Warships to Operation Serpent, it was suggested that this was the bulk of Comstar's fleet.

There is one thing about not showing your hand for all to see. But to allow your only major shipyards and Headquarters to fall in to enemy hands to hide your fleet when you can prevent it. Or when the entire Inner Sphere is going to war and only offer a small fraction of your own fleet. No, none of this supports military logic that Focht had demonstrated before.

If Comstar didn't have this massive fleet in 3058, and without Titan Yards, how could it have had this massive fleet that took part in Case White in 3068? This seems like such a massive stretch. I am not sold on this concept.

Is it a grand story. Sure, but I can't support or buy this.

Akira
ghostrider
09/29/15 08:44 PM
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I agree with that. You would commit all the forces you can to retake your primary place of not only ship building, but repairs as well.
Honestly, using the warships would have removed WOB from the players then and there. But that would have destroyed WOB being the next boogie man.

The novels really need to be read thru to keep them in line with the stories. The great war commanders in the novels did not even THINK of using the warships. It was suggested that only a ground battle would be the way, as Focht was explaining why the pirmas was ordering him to assault terra with everything and he refused her. At that point, it sounds like the prime martial would have been replaced and the new one sent to take out WOB.

I am beginning to think Focht was a WOB sympathizer.
To my knowledge, in any conflict, you secure your home before running off to make war else where. The fact they did not hit terra with everything they could get tells me someone dropped the ball, or really didn't understand the significance of losing the home system. That alone would have dropped comstars stock with the rest of the innersphere and the clans.
Which needs to ask, why would the clans deal with an organization that can not protect it's home base from what most would be considered bandits at that time?
That also throws off clan honor and disgust for the weak. So the whole truce would not have happened.
But maybe that is just me.
Karagin
09/30/15 06:21 AM
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What novels? The last official novel that support the time line was Endgame and then we had the Mechwarrior novels that were one off shoots of things.

Then the only fiction we had/have is the stuff put out by the pay to read BATTLECORPS fiction and most of that is written by other authors, not the top ones that we had all become accustom to quoting as factual as far as canon goes, but now every story in the Battlecorps library is canon, yet it's mish mash of things and nothing really has an ending, based off the anthologies they keep release and short stories.

Maybe the upcoming novels, let's hope we see them, might give us something since one deals with Case White. Then again the current stories about Case White have things so favored heavily to the WoB and makes ComStar look like a rookie merc unit.

Things was they could have done more to hurt the WoB by getting the other Houses to boycott Terra and any thing coming from it, plus the FWL tolerated the WoB, the "not" Marik didn't kowtow to them as much as they thought. Focht didn't want to destroy Terra to retake it but given how fast the WoB was willing to use all means to take it...yeah. And the idea that Terrans where just over joyed to have the Robes back in full force...plus the amount of desertions happening to the ComGuard, one has to wonder what kind of command structure they had as well as discipline with in the ranks.

This falls back on the idea that in a few years of the breaking up of ComStar into the two factions, WoB is able to pull it's self together and attack Terra with relative ease and that alone doesn't send folks like Davion-Steiner and Kurita in an up roar, yeah that part never has made any sense.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
09/30/15 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

So really Cray what you are telling us that this was all about getting rid of uber units aka the Dragoons, and removing the weapons race that was slowing the game down...



Nope. The Dragoons survived into MWDA. Any unit destroyed in the Jihad was just for the plot line; there was no particular goal about eliminating big or uber units in the Jihad.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
09/30/15 07:08 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

And hitting New Avalon twice?



Well, we've been discussing the Jihad a while now, Ghostrider, so I figure you've learned enough to answer these two questions. I'd really like to see you - Ghostrider, not others - answer these to see if I've been helping explain the early bits of the Jihad.

1) What was the strength of the Federated Suns' and Lyran Alliance's militaries in late 3067, just after the FedCom Civil War ended?

2) What are the identities of the five nations with whom the FedCom's halves started fighting in 3067 to 3070?

Hint: the answers to both questions are in this thread, and it's okay to copy-and-paste.

Quote:
But then that was the era I stopped buying the stuff. The fedcom civil war was the last novels I read until the dark ages.



Then you know what shape the Federated Suns and Lyran Alliance were in when they got in a total of five wars (not counting WoB's raids) in 3067-3070.

Actually, if you read those FedCom Civil War books, then you were also aware that the Federated Suns used multiple nukes in the 3060s before WoB.

Quote:
Where does it state the WOB was after the clans?



Again, Jihad Secrets pp. 11-14 provides a complete, in-character overview of the Jihad, including WoB's motivations to attack the Clans. Separately, Dawn of the Jihad, JHS:3070, 3072, Terra, and Final Reckoning all give assorted glimpses into WoB's original motivations. If you want a one-stop reference, go for Jihad Secrets.

Quote:
And who besides them were involved in the Jihad?



I gave a list of major conflicts during the Jihad and their participants. It's earlier in this thread in response to Akirapryde.

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I can understand some people having read things on the internet. I am asking questions since the logic behind a lot of it seems flawed and pointed towards things like removing royalty names and units.



Actually, a lot of the logical flaws you bring up are contradicted by the books - i.e., the flaws you're questioning don't even exist. For example, you put some effort into expressing disbelief that no one knew WoB's plans, that there wasn't even one defector, however that was based on an incorrect premise: people did know about WoB's plans for ComStar and the Clans.

In the case below, you're treating a minor raider - WoB - like it should get the same attention as Houses, Clans, and Periphery powers that were attacking dozens of Suns and Lyran worlds. Like I've said in previous posts, WoB didn't make itself standout until most (not all) other combatants were exhausted.

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Things like they weren't planning to attack the great house, but they hit the 2 that were part of the fedcom. That alone sounds wrong and backwards. Hitting them would definitely caused a response.





I addressed this several times previously in this thread. Yes, WoB's brief tantrum in 3067 over the collapse of the Star League prompted a response, and I included two of those responses (border wars) in the list of conflicts early in the Jihad. I pointed out that two of those border wars were triggered by the Lyran Federation of Skye and Davion Capellan March attacking suspected WoB collaborators.

Please, just look at the scale of those border wars. Dozens of planets were changing hands with other enemies after WoB blew up a few government buildings, was defeated because the attacks were unplanned, and then ran away. Priority: not WoB.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (09/30/15 07:12 PM)
Karagin
10/01/15 07:55 AM
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Look at the scale of how hard many of us find it for a splinter group to go from pain in the neck to major player on the same level as St Ives Compact in less time and with really no major support, but yet you Cray counter this with the same answers, they have Terra, they have support from the FWL they have the hidden worlds, all of which are great, but do not answer or explain away HOW they did all of this and the next answer to this is the IS Intel Agencies were to busy dealing with other things is very bad writing falling into the same idea that your aliens need to be super scary to work aka the Hollywood approach for the bad guys.

No group can keep a secret, and for you and Randal and the rest to keep claiming the WoB was able to do this and what little leaked out was ignored I feel is a bit insulting to the players and fans of this game. Catch here Cray is folks are still questioning the who WoB and Jihad storyline, folks did not buy into it, so maybe that should tell you something, or you can keep dismissing those of us who disagree with the storyline or feel there are issues and keep repeating your prepped answers. Or maybe you could possible look at things from our Point of View and then give us an actual answer vs the company line.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
10/01/15 01:00 PM
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So from what I am feeling about the responses, it seems WOB would hate all the houses except Marik, with a definite enemy of Davion and Steiner.
This looks more like the developers wanted to destroy the super state they created with the merger, then civil war of, the fedcom.
Then when they didn't go far enough, they came up with the jihad. The fact that the houses have had issues with comstar/wob before, and did nothing to get away from their influence, sounds like they were stupid in all forms.

Focht not removing them from the universe with the warships and troops he had available because he was focused on the clans, was a stretch, but believable.
The attacks WOB did because they were upset, yet I didn't see anything about WOB trying to pay them back for those attacks, which would very well have happened, nor banning them from their territories didn't as well.

Please, just look at the scale of those border wars. Dozens of planets were changing hands with other enemies after WoB blew up a few government buildings, was defeated because the attacks were unplanned, and then ran away. Priority: not WoB.
For being a minor player in the whole Jihad, if they had not done those attacks, the entire jihad would never have happened. I understand there would not have been the major uprising with all houses because of it, since Liao definitely benefitted from it, but trying to deflect the blame from them.

It sounds like you are trying to say stefan amaris was a minor player in the fall of the original star league with that example. They did not do more then distract the attention of the IS away from the house lords getting ready to carve up the IS and the fight weakened the Star League forces.
The fact the other periphery states were involved in trying to leave the league was over looked because of the autracities amaris forces did on the Hemegony worlds.

And honestly, if Comstar had that many people that were unhappy with them, why didn't WOB break away before they did? Egos would have caused them to splinter so much more then 2 major groups with a few subfactions in each. And interestingly enough, I know they had issues with the sub groups in the novels, yet some how, none of those groups tried to make a play for power during the jihad or even before?
And with Kali Liao getting away with the nerve gas attacks, I do not see why they didn't try this sooner. The take over of the chaos march worlds was a systematic and PLANNED campaign.
With this, I find a lack of planning from taking border worlds and pulling back because they were not able to support them kind of dumb. All houses should have contingency plans incase their raids actually finds a weak spot already planned out from the 3rd succession war. Simple updates should have removed that 'not ready' garbage excuse.
Good example is Marik during the fourth war. Dust off the computer files and use the plans that were already there.
Karagin
10/01/15 02:22 PM
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Amaris planned his stuff out over years, and he had allies that wanted to fight the Star League, where as his issue was personal since the Cameron's slighted on of his ancestors etc...it wasn't an overnight kind of thing for Amaris to worm his way into the Terran Hegemony and take it over, that took time and he didn't last long once there either. He had the fore sight of the slight ancestor who began the build up as well as his playing other Periphery powers and splinter groups in to his game, one that he controlled and ran with, kind of like Palpatine and his running the CIS and the Republic during the Clone Wars.

I am sure we could have had Fifth Succession War come about with the crazy amounts of nationalistic pride coming about in the different Houses, the spark could have been either the FedCom Civil War or the failed wedding of Sun-Tzu to Issis.

Agreed with you on the whole unhappy ComStar part and the whole Schism happening sooner. Hidden armies, shadow leaders, etc...all make for B rated sci-fi. Also it was CLEARLY stated at the end of LOST DESTINY that the break off group would still need spare parts to keep their HPGs up and running thus ComStar would still be able to track them, and somehow we go from this to UBER group in a few short years.

Thing is for the House Intel groups to just go with first look and point fingers, really is a major change from how they were being shown prior to the whole here is the future ala the Dark Age storyline from WizKids. Now I am not saying that there would not have been a massive war, plenty of things can and would cause that for the BT universe, but to have it happen in a manner that doesn't quite mesh with the game's universe back story fully, as you said ghostrider if ComStar was having issues internally then they would have had the break no matter what and add in the Clans showing up, proves that they don't have the sole handle on technology. Also what is stopping the Diamond Sharks from selling HPG tech to the Houses? Why hasn't Kurita or Davion etc...offered them a lot of things upto their first born for this tech? Unless the Clans can't make new ones, yet we see in sourcebooks how they have them on their warships new and old as well bring new ones with them.

You have a group that is small and a pain in the neck, that launches terrorist attacks, so you do what most do you ignore them, then when they do something insane, then you go full bore all out on them, you don't ignore them. The whole tantrum in 3067/3068 should have been WoB money shot and then it would have been game over for them, since they would have wasted their best on nothing and once the surprise went away, then it's over with, the US didn't just go shucks darn after Pearl Harbor, no we hunkered down and came out of the gate swinging, it's was pretty but we came out fighting and didn't let up. Yet we are to believe that the Houses just ignored the new bad guys to worry about border raids and such over the clear and present danger that the WoB presented? Excuse me while I laugh at the silliness there.

I still stick with the idea that some where in the close door meetings TPTB came to conclusion that to them the game was getting out of hand with an arms race of new weapons and that folks would expect new stuff ever few years, so best thing to do is clean house, remove the new toys for awhile, then bring them back under a more controlled setup and hey we have this niffty new toy line with a story line that allows us to do just that. But as I have said before it's dangerous to question this stuff to closely cause it upsets certain folks.

Also, the money, manpower, logistical and control issues have never been honestly answered just hand waved away with the whole Terra and the Sol System is under their control and the FWL money etc...odd how ComStar never got much out of their double Marik but yet WoB is able to milk that cow for 10 or so years and poof instant army and abilities.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Akirapryde2006
10/02/15 08:14 PM
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I have to thank everyone for your efforts.

Cray, I stand by what I said. Your work by its self is very note worthy. And I don't mean to take away from you on that regard.

But what has been done to the universe is a leap of faith too far for me. The last book I read was when Victor returned after the Great Refusal War. The stage was set for the FedCom Civil War and Victor's star was on the raise. He was a major Inner Sphere Hero and had the support of the troops that served with him, plus the massive respect of his enemies. Victor was set up to lead the Inner Sphere through the next major crisis (the FedCom Civil War). As a fan, I have been following the novels up to this point. So I know what I am talking about in this regard.

I am expected to believe that Victor would have allowed the use of Nuclear weapons after the destruction he lived through during the Clan Invasion or what he witnessed on Northwind. Northwind turned out to be a major turning point for Victor as a character. But we are expected to just forget about this and accept the idea that Victor would turn on all that he has learned. All that he stood for.

Then we have the Jihad, I have expressed my issues with this. Without the Jihad, the Dark Ages has no solid footing to exist. Yes I contend that all the facts that Cray bring up are possible. But again, this is a prefect example of a intentional engineered prefect storm for the sake of the war itself. You can explain each point away but not one point can survive without the others. Where would the Jihad be if Wolf's Dragoons didn't attack Mars, or if the separate battles didn't happen? Once you remove one thread, the rest unravels. This is the problem I have the Jihad, the separate events can not stand on their own. Thus making the entire major era that much harder to believe.

This being said, I am sorry to say this but my time with this universe is over. Much like what has happened with D&D and other games (where the story/rules has been changed simply to sell more product), I cannot/will not support this game or the company that publishes it.

I will still relish in the books/stories that were published by FASA. But I will not continue to buy more books for a universe that I don't support.

Cray, I would like to thank you for the hard work you have done. I do not hold you personally responsible for my choice. I continue to admire and respect you. I hope that the respect is mutual. It is my desire that we continue to build on this mutual respect.

Everyone else who took part in this discussion, you all also have my respect and admiration. I wish to thank you for the time you put in this discussion.

Akira
mwam
10/02/15 08:32 PM
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Post deleted by Cray
DavidG
10/02/15 09:34 PM
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Akira, I have enjoyed reading your discussions and hope you continue to post on his forum.

David
ghostrider
10/03/15 12:21 AM
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I hope this doesn't mean you are going to stop coming here. I still like D&D and such, even though they changed the rules so much.
As for battletech, I still like it, but won't use the newer rule sets. Some of the equipment is nice and still not outrageously out there. But it is still playable.

As I said before, when I bought mechwarrior 3rd edition and seen they were making the 4th edition and put out the 3rd anyways, I gave up on it. At that point it seemed they were changing everything they were doing just to sell more books. Sad thing is, I did not get the books when they hit the shelves. Half of them I seen only after years of being out. Not sure if it was the hobby stores I went to just didn't get them in a timely manor, or I just missed them.
Buying the newer stuff and still playing it isn't exactly the same thing. Granted, trying to get new map sets and stuff probably is considered supporting it, but that doesn't mean throwing all of it out just because of the bad ideas (my opinion since sales determines what works and what doesn't).

Hell. I wasn't a fan of DOOM, but without it, there would not be anywhere near the 1st person games out there had it not been popular with alot of others. It is possible for the developer to come up with something we can agree upon.
Granted, that might mean I need to see a psychiatrist as I may have finally lost touch with reality.
Akirapryde2006
10/03/15 09:35 AM
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No, I am not going anywhere. But I don't think I will be further concerned with this topic. I have heard no points of interests that can convince me to make the leap of faith needed for my to find enjoyment within the Jihad or the Dark Ages.

I have plenty of old FASA books and Novels that I can continue to run the wonderful game without stepping in to these waters.

While I do have a lot of Dark Age 'Click' pieces that were given to me as a gift. I will not be expanding that collection as I had planned.

Akira
ghostrider
10/03/15 11:46 AM
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Ok, then answer some of the other questions in the topic before it went to the jihad.

Or ask something that hasn't been thought of, or so old, people have forgotten it.

Hell. If you really feel up to it, some ideas of normal mechs from the star league times with the league's advanced weaponry would be interesting. Or even testing out the general range idea and see if it is worth it or not? IE the one that up to 5 hexes is short for all weapons, 10 medium with their standard max being max. Standard medium laser still max out at 9 but considered medium range.
ghostrider
12/04/15 02:26 AM
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The thought about armored motive systems and other such devices has me thinking on why they are not fit into all newer vehicles. It would prevent the loss of alot of expensive vehicles that die from the stupid fact the crit so easily. Why field a tank worth 5 or more million if one shot kills it. At that point, a mech is worth the money, as they don't die that often.

Armored crew area like a case for them would be another thing. I still don't understand how tank crews can get to elite when any vehicle crews I have dealt with tend to die before their 10th fight.
Life is cheap, but training and equipment isn't in the game.
But that only seems to apply to battlemechs.
Even with maintenance costs. a mech is a better choice. Hell, powered armor is better then a lot of vehicles. Try hitting a unit sitting on top of your turret. Oh wait. The game doesn't let you do that.
ghostrider
12/07/15 03:58 PM
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Cray. Is there any thing from the developers about how lrms and such work in space?
I don't believe they kept with the 30 meter hex as a base for space hexes, so how does the time difference of 1 minute verse 10 seconds equate to the range of the projectiles of not only missiles but any solid projectile, be it ac/gauss/antimissile/machine guns?

I would also like to know why a ppc shot doesn't dissipate in space, but does in the atmosphere. I will accept water vapor diffusing a laser beam, though not as much as it would suggest.

If this is because it is science fiction, please let me know. I know some things can not be answered with todays information base.

I guess given the time difference, space hexes should be 6 times the size of a normal battle tech hex. But it didn't. Speed of projectile would have some impact on accuracy of the shot as a faster moving projectile is harder to avoid.

Now with that, I would believe the slide or strafe maneuver should help fighters avoid shots. Would that be one of the next big things in the game? The ability to dodge shots while still moving forward like this?
Just like in the game descent.
ghostrider
12/11/15 01:28 PM
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another stupid thought come to mind.

Is the mechs cockpit an temperature controlled environment, or is it set up like the novels say, where you just have a cooling vest to keep you cool during a fight?

The reason why I ask is the human body can take only so much heat before it passes out. Shouldn't there be a limit on how much heat you can build up before this could happen?
Like if you alpha fired a warhawks prime configuration 2 rounds in a row, and got lucky to avoid an ammo explosion, wouldn't that kill a pilot with just a cooing vest?
Even firing normal shots. Wouldn't it take a few seconds to dissipate the heat? Firing off 4 erppcs would still run the heat past the cockpit area. The heat is not instantaneously gone.

The one mech, I want to say the mongoose suggested the head mounted laser bleed directly into the cockpit making firing it uncomfortable for the pilot, in the fluff.

Was this an oversight on the developers part, or would that make piloting a mech something that wasn't desirable?
Drasnighta
12/11/15 02:08 PM
198.53.98.65

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The 'mech Cockpit is a temperature controlled environment *TO A POINT*. They can even be sealed against Pressure + Vacuum.

It is just the Heating and Cooling Cycling system within the 'Mech Cockpit itself can be OVERWHELMED by the 'Mechs inherent heat generation.

You read a bit about bursts of heat, and the cyclers not being able to keep up with it, and that increasing the cockpit temperature to undesirable - and the cooling vest being what stops the Mechwarrior from Cooking or passing out, WHILE the cockpit heat cyclers get everything back under control...
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
ghostrider
12/11/15 09:08 PM
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In almost every thing I have read about being in a cockpit, very few don't suggest the pilot is sweating their butts off in combat. A few suggest the pilot is about ready to pass out from things like dehydration and even being to hot.

They also suggest alot of warriors strip naked in a few to help deal with the heat.
I don't know why, but I find it unlikely that the heat stops building because the coolant system is maxed out. That would imply the coolant itself would be warmer then the air as it flows thru the vest.

Maybe I am getting novels concepts of mechs mixed with the actual function of it. I see so many times the warriors opening the cockpit up to allow outside cool air into it since it is hot and stifled from just moving the mech, nothing more strenuous.
Even the simulators prince Victor used said it pumped hot air into the pod in order to simulate the heat build up. But as I said, that is novels, not the core rules.
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