ghostrider
01/21/15 07:04 PM
75.80.239.165
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Just letting people that are new here know. Don't be discouraged by people putting up their opinions on units.
Do not worry about what we say, unless it is something major like the weight is wrong, or something of that nature.
Your games and your campaigns are not to be discouraged. I am not in any part official battletech, and I don't think anyone is.
Do not think you can not use your designs in your own game, or that you should stop making them because someone here doesn't like them.
I know I would like something close to reasonable, but that is just me. I am not the lord of battletech, so take what I say as a suggestion or even bad advice.
I don't want to keep others from having fun.
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ghostrider
03/31/15 03:10 PM
76.89.120.217
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Where can you find any information on the actual maximum height you can drop a mech from?
What is the closest a warship can get into a 1g world?
When does a warship have issues with an atmosphere?
I wondered about this back when the Draconis Combine made a warship that could drop mechs from orbit. One threat said warships crash when in a planets atmosphere, but this made me think of a conflict in the design vs rules aspect on this.
Any ideas on what I missed?
With all the information available, I don't see why a dropship has to be in orbit to drop scouts.
They could move to where they need to be from where they land. It should allow them to avoid detection, as they are just another meteor dropping on a planet.
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Cray
03/31/15 06:30 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Where can you find any information on the actual maximum height you can drop a mech from?
Well, per Total Warfare, 'Mechs take falling damage based on the number of levels they fall. Even 1 level (6 meters, give or take) generates damage. To avoid that you need to fall less than 1 level, which would be around 3-4 meters, tops.
Note that 'Mechs with jump jets may deliberately "fall" any height safely, presuming they use their jump jets to brake (and drop cocoons if they're going to perform atmospheric entries). 'Mechs without jump jets performing a combat drop from a DropShip are equipped with one-shot "drop packs" of parachutes and single-use jump jets (for use after their drop cocoon pops).
Quote:
What is the closest a warship can get into a 1g world?
When does a warship have issues with an atmosphere?
Per AT2R and Total Warfare, they take damage based on the number of hexes per turn they move in the atmosphere of a planet. (The way to avoid damage: don't move. 1 hex per turn = 100 standard points of damage to a WarShip or JumpShip.) So, look up the high altitude map in Total Warfare. I think there's 5 atmosphere and interface rows on the map, each 18km across, which would make the closest 90km without experiencing damage.
Note that each thrust point equals 0.5G, so a WarShip able to muster 2 thrust points could hover in place on the edge of the atmosphere instead of orbiting. Doing so is discussed in Strategic Operations - it lets you bombard one map for a lot longer than a WarShip in orbit.
Quote:
I wondered about this back when the Draconis Combine made a warship that could drop mechs from orbit. One threat said warships crash when in a planets atmosphere, but this made me think of a conflict in the design vs rules aspect on this.
You can drop 'Mechs further away from a planet than the edge of the atmosphere. Dropping near the edge of the atmosphere just minimizes the time the 'Mechs are trapped in their entry cocoons and vulnerable to defending fighters and anti-aircraft guns. See Tactical Operations (I think) or BattleTech Master Rules for combat drop rules.
Quote:
With all the information available, I don't see why a dropship has to be in orbit to drop scouts.
Yep. They can be dropped from inside the atmosphere, or from a passing DropShip that didn't enter orbit but just swung by. Well, I guess that'd be a "hyperbolic orbit," so your transport will be in form or another.
Quote:
They could move to where they need to be from where they land. It should allow them to avoid detection, as they are just another meteor dropping on a planet.
Meteors usually don't drop from DropShips and WarShips. The detection range of sensors is such that your DropShip or WarShip could be easily spotted tens of millions of kilometers from a planet (engine drive plume detectors) or around a million kilometers (radar), not to mention the jump wave detectors that spotted your arrival at the jump point several AU away. Also, unless you're REALLY patient, BattleTech's 'Mech transport tend to move much faster than any meteor when they're in deep, like small percentages of light speed. They stand out from natural space objects. See Strategic Operations for sensor rules.
It's not a question of being undetected - you will be seen. It's a question of landing before the defenders get to you (hence the value of a pirate point). Or knocking down the defenders and then landing where ever you want. Or finding an opponent with poor sensor coverage, in which case the stealth efforts aren't really important. Or pretending to be a merchant and landing in full view.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/01/15 01:09 AM
76.89.120.217
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The question of a mech being dropped was from orbit, not an uncontrolled fall. Sorry if I didn't specify that. I know they take damage from falling off cliffs and buildings.
The meteor comment was just suggesting that anyone watching the radar and other sensors, should think a dropped unit from further out would not be a hostile unit. This also was to cover spec ops style insertion on a planet, ie released from a normal ship so the ground crew doesn't realize it was dropped.
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Cray
04/01/15 06:10 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The meteor comment was just suggesting that anyone watching the radar and other sensors, should think a dropped unit from further out would not be a hostile unit. This also was to cover spec ops style insertion on a planet, ie released from a normal ship so the ground crew doesn't realize it was dropped.
I understood the goal. I just don't think it'd work on a well-developed planet because of sensor ranges - 'Mechs are dropped from low orbit at most, while ships may be seen at much longer ranges. So the visible "meteors" would be released from a visible ship.
There are, however, planets where it'd work: the ones with imperfect sensor coverage, the average worlds, the backwater worlds. For those worlds you're on to something.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/02/15 07:17 PM
76.89.120.217
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On a different note.
With tanks having the bad time with crits, and half of the crits basically killing the crews, (barring case for ammo explosion), how to tank crews get even close to being elite if they actually get hit in combat?
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ghostrider
04/04/15 10:45 AM
76.89.120.217
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Don't remember if this was brought up or not but I'm gonna ask anyways.
A vehicle using an ice engine.
Should it require power amps when using gauss style equipment?
I would think so, since it requires alot more power to charge and fire then anything other then energy weapons. Even the description of the weapon says it uses alot of power.
I can forgive the first firing, since you can charge it for a while, but every round sounds like more power then just the normal alternator should be able to put out.
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Cray
04/04/15 11:42 AM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Don't remember if this was brought up or not but I'm gonna ask anyways.
A vehicle using an ice engine.
Should it require power amps when using gauss style equipment?
Power amplifiers are only applied to energy weapons, which include lasers, PPCs, and plasma weapons. Despite their prodigious electrical appetite, Gauss rifles are not counted as energy weapons. If it helps you rationalize it, assume that those great, big, explosive capacitors in Gauss weapons count as integral power amplifiers - the Tech Manual description of power amplifiers is a capacitor bank. Unlike a laser, they come with their own power amplifier.
Note that Heavy Gauss rifles may only be mounted on fusion-powered vehicles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/05/15 09:01 PM
76.89.120.217
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Did some thinking about the capacitors. I could accept that for the first shot, as I said. But if you start firing fast, it doesn't hold up like it should. Otherwise it opens the door for other arguments.
The first thought comes to mind about using small laser.
Or using a smaller engine with the electric motors used as the motive system on fusion engines.
Most ice engines have the alternators large enough to power most electrical systems, but that normally doesn't cover sensor suits like radar, along with some comms, turrets, life support, as you really don't want to have dirty outside air coming inside causing your units to choke.
Granted, there should be something to equal out the fact the ICE's are too damn heavy. But this doesn't seem right. Otherwise you should be able to charge a capacitor bank to use energy weapons. I know power amps are light enough, but I just don't see being able to fire a gauss every round without some extra power supply to them.
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Cray
04/06/15 06:43 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Did some thinking about the capacitors. I could accept that for the first shot, as I said. But if you start firing fast, it doesn't hold up like it should.
It does hold up if you look at the length of a turn versus the power consumption of an energy weapon versus the power generation of a fusion engine and ICE engine.
A turn is 10 seconds long. An energy weapon fires only for a fraction of a second. That leaves you have over 9 seconds to recharge an energy weapon.
The problem is, energy weapons don't have capacitor banks adequate to hold the charge that can be delivered in 9+ seconds.
Fusion engines get around this because they can deliver enough juice quick enough to meet energy weapons' needs, no capacitor bank required.
IC engines can't deliver electricity that fast on their own, so you need a separate capacitor bank to build up that juice over the 9 spare seconds in a turn. Hence, the power amplifier.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/06/15 06:53 PM
76.89.120.217
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I guess not knowing the energy output of a normal alternator/generator on the engine and what the capacitors need is messing with me.
It makes me wonder about the fusion reactors and how they came up with the rating a unit needs, with output verses weapons and movement. It is nice and easy that movement for mechs is speed times weight equals engine, but when you add in weapons it goes into the toilet. Vehicles is even worse.
Without major modifications to the ice and it's charging system, generating the power needed to charge the capacitors would throw engine size or rating out the window for moving the vehicle. For some reason I would believe the gauss rifle needs more power then moving a light vehicle quickly.
It also makes me wonder why they don't have large batteries that are charged in order for energy weapons use
Maybe this might help. Does the fuel cell need power amps for energy weapons?
Ok, they do require amps. Checked the wiki after posting this.
Edited by ghostrider (04/06/15 06:56 PM)
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ghostrider
05/12/15 03:35 AM
76.89.120.217
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Is there some reason why the developers didn't go with keeping ice engines the same weight as fusion, but force vehicles that use ice to mount a small fusion engine like a turret needs for energy weapons and just to power electronics?
Ie. the rating is based on power needed?
Also. Did they limit tanks even more by forcing fuel limits on vehicles, instead of just ruling that certain items could not be on a vehicle?
Fusion engines would have been a good start.
Maybe limit the weight a turret could handle?
Or even the amount of weapons it could effectively use.
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Cray
05/12/15 06:40 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Is there some reason why the developers didn't go with keeping ice engines the same weight as fusion, but force vehicles that use ice to mount a small fusion engine like a turret needs for energy weapons and just to power electronics?
By the time vehicles were added to the game, it was canonical that the universe was extremely starved of fusion engines due to technological collapse so they wouldn't be placed in vehicles all that often. Further, combustion engines were supposed to be the cruder, heavier alternative to fusion engines. Hence, they were heavier.
Quote:
Ie. the rating is based on power needed?
The rating is only abstraction linked to movement. It was a quick-and-simple means of determining engine size for fusion-powered 'Mechs that predated the idea of combustion engines.
Quote:
Also. Did they limit tanks even more by forcing fuel limits on vehicles, instead of just ruling that certain items could not be on a vehicle?
The fuel / range of combustion engines is a fairly recent introduction. The original vehicle rules didn't bother with those fine details of logistics.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/12/15 10:06 PM
76.89.120.217
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The fuel thing does seem like an oversight. I have yet to see how much fuel or even how often a fusion engine needs to replace the fuel/top it off.
I guess asking why they did not have people add in a larger engine depending on power consumption do to weapons, electronics and even movement on non vehicle units is beyond the scope of an answer. I can understand this was made before anyone thought it would become as popular as it did.
The KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid.
It was weird they wanted to round up to the nearest half ton, but didn't have make a simple table for vehicle controls.
And I would still like to know how engines get assigned a rating. I would assume it was power output, but some of the things that have been done doesn't add up to that. IE, a 300 rated engine only pushes a 100 ton at 3 move, yet a 75 ton unit at 4. That should be myomers making the difference, not the engine itself.
I am assuming the increased power output is how MASC works on mechs.
Not sure how the supercharger does anything, though.
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Retry
05/12/15 10:53 PM
76.7.238.104
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I wouldn't say it was an oversight as much as it was a lack of caring for a factor that would not affect any conceivable tactical situations.
I presume the Myomers, having access to a higher power engine, are able to work at a faster rate, thus speeding up the mech itself.
The Battletech supercharger, for ICE vehicles anyways, functions more like a War Emergency Power setting for an engine, exceeding the safety limit for a burst of power, and with it speed.
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Karagin
05/12/15 11:21 PM
70.118.139.48
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They have had plenty of chances to correct the oversight and allow for lighter conventional engines as they did for Fusion engines, unless some how some way the folks in the Inner Sphere can't seem to apply the same concepts of lighter internal structure and double heat sink and lighter engine technology and advancements to vehicles...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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GiovanniBlasini
05/12/15 11:56 PM
75.80.176.62
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I wasn't aware that fusion reactors and internal combustion engines were so similar. I bet that must make all those universities studying fusion power here in the real world real sheepish that they just can't look at car engines for ideas.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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ghostrider
05/13/15 01:25 AM
76.89.120.217
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That is a problem with how the engines provide power. The ICE uses the reciprocating motion to produce power, while my understanding is the fusion engine produces electricity for use. The ICE can use lighter alloys and still work, while the fusion engine should have issues with the shielding needed to keep it cool and prevent all the radiation from escaping. And to be honest, you could very well use alloys found in simple things like mech armor to produce a lighter, and stronger ICE. I seriously doubt the ICE temps would get anywhere near even a small lasers heat output or damage. And the cooling circuit should avoid it getting that high, even if it did.
Now I understand the concept of more power causing the myomers to contract with more force, but the engine puts out x amount of power. Increasing say the voltage to get it to pull harder does work. But all the power in the world won't drive a unit faster without a good motive system. This ties in with the pricing of the engines. They should not be what decides the speed of a mech. Stronger myomers should. The MASC system shows the hole in that theory. Technically the triple strength myomers are another hole in that theory. Heat slows down the motive system in a mech, yet the tsm increases it once hot? And not just up to normal speed. but even faster. I would think you could have a capacitor bank that would charge and allow you bursts of speed when charged. Even just a larger generator if such is used. And yes, they should be maxed out, but I would think they went the cheap road, because there is nothing in the game about how the MASC sends an increased charge. No recharge time. No extra power needed. If it is just a different transformer, then that blows the largest power source in use to hell.
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ghostrider
05/13/15 01:40 AM
76.89.120.217
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A thought came up after I logged out.
The fact you can burn out myomers says something as well.
Also myomers are based on the tonnage of the mech, but doesn't even involve the speed they are used.
How would a myomer for something that is 30 tons have a stronger contraction pull then a heavier one?
And the fact you can get faster ones for any size mech, or even using the same ones by changing out an engine has some major flaws in it. And honestly, a smaller engine should cause some issues with them as well, since running say 6 volts through an item made to run 12 volts causes problems. Not as bad as 12 volts thru a 6 volt system, but that is another side of that problem.
To my knowledge you can take the myomers from an Awesome and stick them into a normal Charger. Only length of them would need to be changed. Now we are talking leg myomers, not arms. Which should mean the bigger engine should allow them to carry more weight in the arms. Not hands since they are actuators, but the arms themselves. Handless mechs should be the example with this one.
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Karagin
05/13/15 06:45 AM
70.118.139.48
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So if that is the case, the HOW does an IC powered mech even move let alone function?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/13/15 12:15 PM
76.89.120.217
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If it doesn't require power amps, the only other way I can think of is using hydraulic pumps. I don't think they are completely geared.
Basically think of the ICE as a normal car engine. Crank shaft changed back and forth motion of the pistons into a circular motion to attach to something. A transmission is normal for a car, but a generator has a 'magneto' for the lack of the correct term to produce electricity.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/13/15 02:14 PM
172.56.6.51
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And so the house of cards falls that mechs could ever be.
Its a game it does not have to have any logic and so it does not.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
05/13/15 02:37 PM
76.89.120.217
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I understand that there are going to be things that are not full logic, but using things to argue why some thing like an ICE engine weighs 2 times as much as a fusion engine, just because they don't want mechs being overpriced targets, yet argue why a fusion reactor should be inside a shaking unstable housing without any problems does annoy me for some stupid reason. And let's face it. A half ton fusion engine WILL NOT be protected from things like simple falls as they do not have anything to protect them.
My understanding of a fusion reactor is that it conforms to fission (commonly nuclear) reactors. Having the hot fuel slooshing around inside the reactor should melt an material they can use to sheild it. I know magnetic fields are supposed to suspend the fluids, but really. Something simple like the unit shutting down should disrupt the fields and destroy the engine shielding at the least.
I know without some give reality destroy the fun of the game.
And this is not going into the really bad ideas, like a jumpcore bomb. Drop it on a city and take the whole area completely out. It would have solved the issues of the house leaders resisting wob. Who really wouldn't care, since they would write history.
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Cray
05/13/15 06:01 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The fuel thing does seem like an oversight. I have yet to see how much fuel or even how often a fusion engine needs to replace the fuel/top it off.
That's addressed in Strategic Operations for combat vehicles, and in Tech Manual for support vehicles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/14/15 11:47 PM
76.89.120.217
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Had a question come up reading one of the tank designs and wondered what the difference was between a mech and a tank, that restricts the use of double heat sinks in a vehicle. (besides the developers said so)
At the very least, you should be able to run a fusion engine with double heat sinks that the engine hides if air flow is an issue, which it shouldn't be.
This would go along the idea that part of the engine shielding is part of the heat sink design in the unit.
The more open design should mean better airflow for any heat sinks in a vehicle, over the ones stuck inside a tighter enclosure of a mech. And having fans on them should NOT be the excuse, since they should be on ALL heat sinks no matter what land based unit they are in.
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ghostrider
05/25/15 12:53 PM
76.89.120.217
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had another question come up.
If jump jets push a mech along at the same speed, why would a 3 hex jump take as long as an 8 hex jump?
Yeah, it might be picky, and the best answer is probably to keep the game flowing easily.
Also, if weapons fire happens simultaneously, how can the fluff and novels come up with stopping return fire from an enemy mech by shooting it in the same round it should fire in?
Is there an optional rule that says you can do that?
I would think initiative should allow something like that. Losing person fires last, while the winner goes first. If the result is the weapons is destroyed, like blowing off the arm it is attached to, then the weapon shouldn't be allowed to fire.
Just stupid things that come up once in a while.
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Drasnighta
05/25/15 12:57 PM
198.53.98.65
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The Second part of your statement was solved with Duelling Rules somewhat...
Again, Fluff =/= Rules, overall.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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ghostrider
06/06/15 08:36 PM
76.89.120.217
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Had another thought about space in a mech and the size of the mech.
How could a 12 meter tall locust be able to house the same amont of things like heat sinks that an 18 meter tall atlas can?
We had a discussion about engines, and how a 400 engine takes the same volume of space as a 10 rated engine does. Nothing said really satisfies that question yet.
I do understand it is to keep the game simple.
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ghostrider
06/13/15 11:19 AM
76.89.120.217
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was going over a post and realized something.
To my knowledge the clans have had case in arms to aviid ammo explosions from entering the torsos meaning they could have no damage done to a torso location from that arm, but even with the latest incantations of the rules, the innersphere STILL does not have this ability, despite having access to clan technology.
It there some reason for this?
Or did they just make it so only torso case prevents further damage?
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ghostrider
07/19/15 02:51 PM
76.89.121.69
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Not sure if anyone has brought up this or not, but here it goes.
I know the game is made to be relatively easy to play, but shouldn't there be a penalty for a unit that is force to make a piloting roll in the next round?
Almost every time I read anything about a pilot having to wrestle his machine to keep from falling, they throw out an arm to help balance, or take a few steps to the side or even bash into a wall.
For me, that sounds like alot of movement to be doing in 10 seconds, then you think you will be able to aim? Some of this sounds like it may well take you 20 to 30 seconds to regain the balance.
Also, I would think you might actually come out of it facing the wrong direction.
Yes this put the poor pilot that was force to make a roll in a bad position,
Also wouldn't a vehicle moving out have the same issues with getting hit with that much damage as well.
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ghostrider
08/16/15 09:23 PM
76.89.121.69
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Do the developers have any motivation to explain if the ammunition use by the clans are any different from the innersphere?
Electronics and such would not explain why the ranges are different if the ammunition uses the same amount of propellants.
I can understand it being a little more accurate, but that would be easy to say the innersphere has a penalty for things like the number of cluster shots that hit from an innersphere lbx cannon.
If it is a design issue of the weapons, I would figure the innersphere should have figured that out by now and come out with a mk II version of the weapon to remove the range issues. Then again it should be the same with the other weapons as well.
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Akirapryde2006
08/16/15 11:08 PM
71.100.132.249
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based on the books I have read, I would have to say there is no difference in the ammo used between the Clans and Inner Sphere. Unlike between NATO standard rounds and those used by non-NATO nations, I have seen where Clan units have rearmed themselves off of stolen supplies. Most notable during the Battle of Tukayyid.
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happyguy49
08/16/15 11:45 PM
98.30.242.159
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The ammo HAS to be different. Especially missiles. No minimum range at all on clan LRM's? That's gotta be due to fundamentally different electronics, controls, etc. in the actual missiles as well as different tech in the launchers. (witness the "enhanced" LRM's the FedSuns invented. kind of a bridge to Clan level LRMs.)
There was like 300 years of no-contact between the Clans and the rest of humanity. The dimensions of shells, their propellant power, etc. all would probably change and be refined over that amount of time. (giving you your large range differentials.) Even if the shots-per-ton and basic cannon bore diameters were the same, everything else might and probably would be different.
That Tukayyid fluff you mention doesn't make sense when you consider that, but it is just fluff; rules trump fluff. Although, you can pod-mount crappy IS weapons in Clan omni's if you really need to.. and if you have no ammo left AT ALL for your fancy-pants Clan cannons and missile racks, you would use whatever you might have available.. captured IS-tech weapons and supplies in this case. Then the fluff you mentioned can be made to make sense.
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ghostrider
08/17/15 01:01 AM
76.89.121.69
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there is a minimum to the clan lrms. It is 3. Now it is possible to reprogram minimum arming time, such is done in hunt for red october movie. The set the safety arming device for after it was launched.
And from everything that I have seen and read it the game, both sides have used the others ammunition.
But there is NO where in any of the rule books that states the innersphere and clan ammunitions are incompatible, that is for the same weapon. You can not say cluster ammo does not work in normal ac's since that it true for all sides.. Even the scenario pacts have them raiding supplies to rearm. This isn't novels, but actual adventure packs made for the game. And to add a little fire to the whole shell size issue, that would hold true with all cannons made by different manufacturers. Even simple machine guns would be different ammunitions, and this is not saying light, medium and heavy, I am talking normal mg's.
And even with the clans warfare, if they could not use the innersphere stuff, why bother with taking a supply dump? Nothing is compatible during the original invasion. They would need alot more ammo brought up during the second part of the invasion, and they didn't bother with that much more.
And let's say it is true. Why would any innersphere unit swap out of clan weapons that require ammunition? Any captured ammo supplies would run out, leaving you with nothing to shoot with.
Now if you have a theory, i would love to read it. I might have missed something.
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Akirapryde2006
08/17/15 09:06 AM
71.100.132.249
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Quote:
happyguy49 writes:
That Tukayyid fluff you mention doesn't make sense when you consider that, but it is just fluff; rules trump fluff. Although, you can pod-mount crappy IS weapons in Clan omni's if you really need to.. and if you have no ammo left AT ALL for your fancy-pants Clan cannons and missile racks, you would use whatever you might have available.. captured IS-tech weapons and supplies in this case. Then the fluff you mentioned can be made to make sense.
Look in the concept of a reality issue, I totally.....TOTALLY agree with you. It doesn't make sense. Of everyone on this board you will not find a person who is more bend on keeping it real then me. I know I can annoying with that, but I enjoy a large measure of realism in my games. Games that I can say yeah, that makes sense. Like in this issue. BUT there are a number of references in the books where Inner Sphere pilots have used Clan ammo and vise a versa.
In a real world, Inner Sphere powers would have totally different kinds of ammo. Consider here in our world.
In western (NATO) forces, the 7.62×51mm NATO round has been mostly replaced by the lighter 5.56×45mm NATO round, which is better suited for automatic fire than the larger round and allows each soldier to carry more ammunition.
Other nations, especially forces with former ties to the Soviet Union tend to use rifles related to or developed from the AK-47 with similar sized rounds to the NATO ones. In 7.62×39mm and 5.45×39mm for assault rifles and 7.62×54mmR for sniper rifles and light machine guns.
For those that don't really know, Frequently the first number reflects bore diameter (inches or millimeters). The second number reflects case length (in inches or mm). For example, the 7.62×51mm NATO refers to a bore diameter of 7.62 mm and has an overall case length of 51 mm. And yes that second number really does mean a lot. I have a SKS (Russian built 7.62x39mm) and a M1 Garand (7.62x51mm) They take different ammo and can't be interchanged. The issue is in the way the breach seals. Even though the Russian ammo is shorter, it won't fit right in the chamber for firing.
There is little reason why Ammo from say Free Worlds League should fit weapons of the Draconis Combine. And even less reason why Clan Ammo would fit Inner Sphere weapons of the same type.
But the powers who created this game/universe created it like that.
Now allow me to address your comment about rules trumping fluff.
I would not say rules trump fluff or in this case, canon. If it is canon than it is the rule. After all that is what canon means (Ref: Canon - an ecclesiastical rule or law enacted by a council or other competent authority). Why put it in the books if they are not meant to be taken as canon.
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happyguy49
08/17/15 12:43 PM
98.30.242.159
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I concede the point, especially if published scenarios, etc. have the ammo's being interchangeable. It just really doesn't seem like they should be, for the above divergent-civilizations reason and also the big differences in performance, specifically range. I can see a couple hex difference if the gun itself is much more sophisticated, but its like 6 or 7 hexes in the case of the Rotary cannons. How do you get that without like rocket-assisted projectiles or something? Which would be physically quite different. Much different minimums on LRMs, 3 hex difference in streak SRM's, that could only mean the missiles themselves are very different.
If the descriptions state that the ammo is qualitatively different, like the AMS systems of IS using a machinegun VS the Clan AMS using flechette, they should not be interchangeable.
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Akirapryde2006
08/17/15 01:22 PM
71.100.132.249
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@happyguy49
You and I think so much alike. But in this case canon says we are both wrong lol.
I hate it when authors do this, but there comes a point and time when you just have to either change the canon or accept it as is.
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ghostrider
08/17/15 02:19 PM
76.89.121.69
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The ams is about the only thing that states the ammo would be different. Other then that, I have yet to see anything that says you can not use each others ammo for the proper weapon.
And with your asking how one set of ammo reaches out further then another if it is the same stuff, is a question I had asked before. If you can use clan ammo in your weapon, why are you limited to the innersphere range with it?
This is where things go wrong in the game. If you can use the ammo, then there is no difference in the size, shape, propellant, and flight characteristics, then the ranges should be the same. If they are different, then like infantry damage, the entire invasion time line is thrown out the window.
And it gets even worse when the video games have things in it, and they are supposed to be oked by the developers. I do understand there are some things that are not written to allow more variety in game play, but atleast put this crap in optional rules.
Granted they might do this to keep people talking about the game.
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Cray
08/17/15 06:54 PM
50.88.145.42
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Do the developers have any motivation to explain if the ammunition use by the clans are any different from the innersphere?
I believe the question has been asked and answered on the official forums' Ask the Line Developers page. I don't recall the answer.
Quote:
there is a minimum to the clan lrms. It is 3.
As far as I know, they've always had a minimum range of 0. In the 1990 publication "Battletech Compendium" (first place with Clan weapon tables, I think), Clan LRMs had a minimum of 0. In the most current Total Warfare printing, Clan LRMs have a minimum of 0. In Heavy Metal Pro, they have a minimum of 0.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Retry
08/17/15 06:55 PM
76.7.232.58
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Yep, all clan missile systems have no minimum with the sole exception of some ATM types. The only missile system I can think of with a minimum range of 3 are enhanced LRMs of the Inner Sphere, which IMO make very nice additions for IS mechs.
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ghostrider
08/17/15 09:14 PM
76.89.121.69
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I stand corrected. The books I have all say 0 as well. I don't know where I got the 3 from.
I know the question was asked, but I don't remember anyone getting an answer for the ammo question. I believe the novel source was said they get wild with things and it wasn't necessarily canon, yet the packs say they use them, which countered the novel part of that. Don't remember anything afterwards.
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Akirapryde2006
08/18/15 08:51 PM
71.100.132.249
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This topic gives raise to a good question for the group.
If you have a situation in the Novels that contradicts the rules of the game, which takes precedents?
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ghostrider
08/19/15 01:07 AM
76.89.121.69
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The rules are supposed to have control here, but what it really comes down to is your group you are playing with. They say what works and what doesn't.
That is why we started the house rules threads. Some things don't make sense, while others need a little more information. The whole idea of jumping 240 meters in 10 seconds, while firing, and landing without any inertia, does sound a little off of physics.
And turning in air while doing it really makes you ask how, if all the jets are in the back of the mech.
One question came up about how weapons fire. How many bullets does a machine gun actually fire? I wanted to know how the mg fired from a mech moving 240 meters to get into range to use it, when they max range they have is 90 meters? 10 seconds of move and fire. That doesn't sound physically possible.
But someone did say the game is fantasy, so you do have to ignore a few inconsistencies. 
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Retry
08/19/15 01:35 AM
76.7.232.58
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Standard BT MGs have a burst mass of .5 kg/s. Not very impressive, that's about the equivalent of an AN/M2 browning, the same as what was mounted on the P-51 Mustang and F6F Hellcat. Assuming a similar sized round, you're looking at around 12 rounds per second if the MG is sustained fire in BT, or much much more if it's a burst fire pattern.
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ghostrider
08/19/15 03:29 AM
76.89.121.69
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It was more about the amount of time you had firing the weapon really. You have a burst no matter how long you hold the trigger. And as I said. Jumping 240 meters with everything else going on, and firing just as or after you land in 10 seconds and hold the position on the enemy long enough to damage it.
But that does bring up the point of lasers and the argument you need to hold it in the same exact position to do damage. I don't think that is possible with a jumping mech, even if the unit you are shooting at is stationary. So something is wrong with the length of the laser beam, or the targeting computers on mechs are a lot better then they suggest.
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ghostrider
08/23/15 09:39 PM
76.89.121.69
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something else that always bugged me about the game.
The extra crits endosteel and ferrous fiber armor need, does not have to be evenly distributed around a unit.
How is this possible? You need the same strength, thickness and such in all locations, but some how, you can make one section like an arm more bulky yet, with the same amount of materials leave the other the same size? That is like saying you have one fat useless arm, and another lean arm that is as strong, yet not burdened with the extra weight.
Is there any one that might be able to explain this in real physics? I know it makes designing easier, but it just sounds completely wrong.
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ghostrider
08/23/15 10:05 PM
76.89.121.69
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Thinking about the crits for endosteel and ferrous fiber, another question came to mind. If you do crap like that, why can't you move where the extra critical slots go for the xl engine?
Why not use the 2 spots in the center torso to avoid full loss of power for innersphere ones with a side torso being blown away?
I would ask about moving the entire engine into a side torso, and keeping that side towards the back of the mech as it is moving, but the lesser armor would make that a bad idea.
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ghostrider
08/28/15 02:08 AM
76.89.121.69
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One thread had me thinking of the over abundance of ways vehicle crews die, which makes me wonder how there is any crews to make elite status?
I do not see any crew, besides those in a unit that never gets hit, to survive many hits on the tank with 3 of the critical spots being instant death before case. And even then, alot of tanks still do not carry it.
Maybe someone can explain this to me, as I have rarely seen a tank crew survive more then 3 combats where they actually get hit.
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ghostrider
09/16/15 11:23 AM
76.89.121.69
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I understand there will not be an instantaneous upgrade when new weapons systems come out, but why is it implied that the star league was not closer to the clans in the aspect of normal weapons? Why did they not use the upgrade versions exclusively?
Another thing I would like to know is what is the true star league versions of the common mechs that are in 3025. You hear of people finding star league caches, but one very big problem exists. I seriously doubt the star league would have locusts with the standard lasers and mgs. I would think every single one of them would have ermls and other advanced equipment on them. After all, the 3025 units were like that because of the decline in technology, not because that is the way they were originally outfitted for the leagues time.
And if the developers want to make some money on a tro that may not have been thought of yet, the standard mechs that are from the star league, might be a good idea to publish their version of the mechs in the leagues time. Ie, the warhammer would probably have erppcs with double heat sinks. But what about the other weapons? Streak pack? Ermls? Something completely different? Maybe gauss rifles instead of ppcs?
This also does not touch on possible omni connections being done before the league fell. The did talk about it not being fully developed in the fluff for the mercury if I recall.
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happyguy49
09/16/15 08:24 PM
98.30.242.159
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check out these guys:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force_Royal_Divisions
They did have equipment like you suggest, i.e. 3025 designs but with top-of-the-line Star League equipment instead of the regular kind. The stratification of technology was a deliberate policy of the Terran Hegemony; they didn't have the size of population or the number of systems of the other IS powers, but they did have the most advanced technological base. The Hegemony systematically and intentionally kept the best stuff for its best and most-loyal units. (the Royal units) Here is a cool one, Atlas II
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Atlas_II
There is even a Star League Warhammer, WHM-6Rb, in TRO 3075, that rocks DHS and an artemis iv... (no ERPPCs though  )
There are some other Royal units in the Star League section of TRO 3075.
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ghostrider
09/16/15 09:34 PM
76.89.121.69
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That shows just how little they thought the game was going to succeed. The atlas II was should have been the normal atlas and the one in the first release should have been the II since time would suggest the modified unit be the next step, not the first.
And i didn't see the area the mechs were in their original star league stats. Maybe I didn't look in the right place.
Still. With the league caches found during the wars, I find it very difficult to believe there was no 'advanced' weapons or even heat sinks in the 3025 era other then the invasion of Hoff by the unit that had the law suit and the Wolf's Dragoons. Even with the tech base dropping down, there should have been working models of everything the league had, since not only should whole units be found in the caches, but stockpiles of those same weapons and equipment.
I would think Team Banzai and a few others would have been able to reproduce those very items. Even the nais should have as well. I understand comstar would have sent raids to destroy them, but let's face it, there would be too much of it to stop it from being worked on. And it would be found out who kept sending the raiders as there is no way to find all the equipment stashes in a house by those outside the house. Even baiting traps for the enemy would show it was not one of them for all the raids.
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Karagin
09/17/15 07:53 AM
70.118.139.48
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Clearly someone didn't think that the fans would notice or care about a lot of this and the awe and fun of giant robotic suits of armor piloted by a human bashing the crap out of another same unit would outweigh all of the worries about high tech toys, BUT the issue of the player being able to make their own mechs puts a huge hole in that. Folks will tinker with things, many people I have meet over the years who play this game, have their own home tech weapons, some had double heat sinks long before they were official, others had longer range laser weapons, as well as Autocannons and missiles that had more in their opinion realistic ranges. And no where was the game ruined or lost the fun.
NAIS and the other House's version would have working copies of League tech on hand if nothing more then to study and figure out how it works. Limited amounts could be made, and I agree sooner or later the Houses would figure out it was ComStar attacking their R&D sites and start returning the favor.
Another hole in the no high tech is the Dragoons, let's be real here, they show up with "lost" designs, now UNLESS the Clans dug through their scrap yards and museums and warehouses and replaced every single weapon and heat sink on the mechs the Dragoons brought with them, it stands to reason many of the Dragoon mechs had SL or Clan tech on them. Now I can understand and see Jamie ordering his warriors to only engage at the same ranges their IS counterparts were attacking them at, thus giving the illusions that while they Dragoons have older mechs (i.e. Hoplite, Flea, Hornet (a mech that had two different sets of artwork), Falcon etc...), they didn't have higher tech, but this would fail once a Dragoon mech fell into enemy hands and the gig would be up. Now the in universe answer would be that the Dragoons, swapped out the high tech items for IS versions as soon as they could, and while that makes things work for the game, it makes NO sense for the Dragoons to give up an edge they had over the other mercs in the Inner Sphere.
This also brings up the question that why were there other companies or groups challenging ComStar role as the HPG king? We have computer companies trying everything to get us to buy their version of the computer, be it Apple or one the IBM clones, the catch isn't how the item looks, but the software and easy of upgrading, and given the whole tablet etc...how to plug them all together and talk to each other, so where is this kind of thing in the Battletech Universe? Or did merchant families and corporations just stop trying to make money?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/17/15 12:01 PM
76.89.121.69
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Actually, in the one novel, they talk about the higher tech equipment they brought to the innersphere and they left it in an uninhabited system. Even the Imp was something that brought questions to the IS leaders. They even had warships with them, so that was an issue.
Now using the higher tech and limiting to IS ranging still would not work. An IS medium laser does 5 points of damage, not 6 or 7. So a hit from one of them would removed fully armored arms off mechs that a normal ml would not. It would be found out sooner or later.
Now since they were mainly freebirths, they were used to using lesser units in battle. But the training of using a star verse a lance would show thru as well. And a lack of elementals would show holes in their tactics.
The issue of a lack of competition to comstar lies in the fact they destroyed anyone that can close to starting up a business like that. Little things like their funds being hacked, stolen, or even accidentally locked up for years would be the nice way of dealing with them. Raids on the r&d as well as pressuring the governments to deal with the people is another form. A communications interdiction would be enough to get the house lords to resolve the issue. And when all else fails, assassinations work. Labs blow up. Car accidents happen. Even simple muggings that kill the victim work. Comstar raided NAIS during the 4th war to get at the helm core stored there, and framed the confederation. Taking out a small company is nothing for them.
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Karagin
09/17/15 07:47 PM
70.118.139.48
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Yes they did all of that, and many real world examples do come to mind, but folks would still keep trying, we have a lot of tech advances and things we take for granted because folks didn't take no this won't work or that will never happen for an answer. I could see folks Chandi and others like NAIS working hard to come up with their own HPGs or better black boxes (aka the fax machines).
Thing about lasers is you can adjust the damage levels, since many of the novels talk about low power settings for mock combat, so I could see the Dragoons refocusing their lasers to lower settings while keeping the higher tech overall setup, though combat loses would effect this over time and as spare parts run out. Part of what I am getting at is the tech they would have would have been Royal level stuff, aka the Terran Hegemony mechs and vehicles etc...not House level tech, so the Wasp would have Med. Pulse Lasers vs standard Mediums and Art IVs built in to the SRM or maybe even Streak as standard since it would have been built that way from either the Exodus or post Pentagon wars.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/17/15 08:14 PM
76.89.121.69
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Well we know from the novels, Wolf's Dragoons knew how to work on hpg's. The did it to send a message out from Outreach in the one novel. Though they are clan personel.
And I would agree there would be lots of people trying to break comstars hold on communications. Probably several companies that have the tech to do it. The biggest issue would be actually doing it, since comstar's use of rom would do anything and everything to stop it.
As for toning down power levels on the energy weapons, that does work until you get to the point of losing units in combat. Someone is bound to have salvaged Dragoon units and had to know the tech was not their level. But then that does go back to the original idea that I seriously doubt the star league had many mechs they took with them rigged to use the 3025 tech weapons. Everything should have been advanced. So the entire Dragoon saga would be completely inaccurate.
I would seriously doubt they had many, if any normal lasers and even then, the fact they were more compact in the second line units tells the story. There is no way it would have taken that long for the houses to get the newer tech.
And now comes the harder to believe part. No one ever hacked into comstars network including their computers? Please. That would be like saying the sun revolves around the earth. There is no way they have NEVER suffered a security breach.
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happyguy49
09/17/15 10:58 PM
98.30.242.159
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The Clans sent the Dragoons back to the IS with Star League era tech; which they still had plenty of in old Brian Caches. So, a fair amount of machines with 2750 tech as well as 3025 tech. (as we know already, Star League didn't only use advanced level 2 tech; they also used regular tech in second line units, garrisons, etc.) The rest of the IS thought the Dragoons had their goodies from a Star League cache.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brian_Cache
RE: ComStar
Could the brightest computer minds in the Successor States circa 3025 hack computer technology two centuries more advanced than the stuff they are working with? By analogy it would likely take even Alan Turing (or more accurately, Babbage) a lifetime to try to hack into a modern military or secure government system with him only having his 1940's level knowledge. Plus ROM would kill him.
Also, any successor state trying to do this risks an Interdiction by ComStar. Which would:
-crash their entire national economy; also any individual world with interstellar trade would see its economy collapse and suffer attendant societal disruption and collapse. Individual worlds or provinces, duchies, baronies, inside the interdicted House would start to declare independence to end the Interdiction against them individually.
-make interdicted House VERY vulnerable to attack by all four of the other Great Houses; they would pounce on the now very-very-weakened interdicted House like a school of piranhas. No interstellar communication means you have no idea where to send reinforcements, or even of where you are being attacked. (FedCom avoided this fate because of its size and power at the time, and most of all the Black Boxes!)
Administering a program to make your own HPG's might have been possible, if all interstellar communications related to this program were done strictly via the pony-express method. You are a Great House in constant rivalry with the other four Houses; are you going to waste precious JumpShips and other resources to hide your attempt at reinventing the wheel, thereby making yourself vulnerable to attack; I don't think so. ComStar had them over a barrel cheaper and easier by far to just pay ComStar to handle HPGs.
Trying to unseat ComStar from its monopoly would be all downside from the perspective of a 3025 IS power.
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Karagin
09/17/15 11:16 PM
70.118.139.48
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Who says ComStar had advanced computers? And who says that the computers the Houses had feel back to the level we have today? We are making some incrediable leaps here, kind of like TPTB expecting folks to accept the WoB being able to do all they did so fast, and then their reasoning as to why is still band-aids kind of like their band-aids with the Dragoons and the story line and the tech not keeping pace.
And the Dragoons used an HPG when they fled the Combine, the head Seventh Kommando managed to get a message out, AFTER HACKING IT, and complained about the shoddy upkeep and jury-rigged patchwork done to it, so that to shows that ComStar wasn't able to keep even the basic preventive maintenance checks and services done on their machines away from Terra, so I am not buying the prevailing theories that they and the WoB can do no wrong and always managed to come out ahead of the game, sorry but no has that kind of luck without some kind of major set back else were.
Actually it would not be all downsides for one or more of the Houses to upseat ComStar and their monopoly on interstellar commo. It would be in their favor to do so, first it would remove the threat of ComStar in that it would prevent those accidental leaks of military and other intel from ending up in the hands of the other houses, second it would mean they would not have to pay the insane fees ComStar charged and lastly it would remove a threat of a power that could and did play blackmail with the House Lords.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/18/15 02:44 AM
76.89.121.69
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I would have to say that comstar are using the same technology as they did in the star league. And honestly, you could use a commadore 64 to hack into the militaries computers today. It just takes knowing coding.
And I have yet to see anything other then some advanced targeting equipment on things like streaks or artemis that would be considered beyond normal tech available to all. If you look at jump ships, without the advanced computers and programing in them, a jump would not be possible. For an hpg, you are sending energy alone to a point in space, not trying to send a large ship.
And you are also assuming the computers they had in say NAIS were not advanced. Hell they could very well be more advanced then the centuries old stuff comstar was using. And that isn't saying that the houses didn't have spys in comstar despite their rom agents. In fact the second in command was a combine agent when the clans were invading. The person that became primus after operation scorpion failed is a perfect example. So this kills the not enough smarts to do anything. Thomas Marik was also a tech in comstar. Why would he not know their coding?
And the black box fax machines did indeed show the tech was out there. It was just a problem using it without major backing. I do agree comstar would pull out all the stops to make sure that did not happen. And we do know comstar did leak intel to the enemies for political, personal, and monetary gains. Even just holding up comms should be considered along these lines. They did fake the comm traffic for the clans for a while.
The interdiction basically saved the confederation from complete destruction, and the suns would have continued to destroy them, and the FWL would have to attack them to prevent the suns from taking it all. With the interdiction the pony express was used, but that is part of why they had the supply problems. Hanse Davion KNEW comstar would do something like this. Now if they were neutral, why would the stop the suns from destroying the confederation?
Power.
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ghostrider
09/18/15 12:44 PM
76.89.121.69
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The big issue with the commercial side of trying to rival comstar that should end why it would never happen. Even if someone did offer services to all, who would actually use them?
There is no way to cover anywhere close to comstars range of stations and there is one simple fact.
How would you deal with comstar interdicting you for using another company? Even if they could keep comms flowing in your area, that means anything outside of it, like spys and agents, could not communicate with you, unless a pony express was set up, and frankly that would not happen in enemy territory.
So profits might look like they are there, but in the end, there is no one that would use the new services.
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RockJock
09/19/15 10:34 PM
12.180.248.172
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I think it is worth noting that the game rules have never exactly matched how the novels read. This covers everything from titanium claws on a certain Centurion to grazing PPC shots to the fact that every AC/LRM round is exactly the same and fits in exactly the same cannons/launchers nomatter where they are made. I think these differences would cover some of the range/damage differences between systems. Nobody would be saying "that medium laser had greater range/more punch" because the 270m range and 5 points of damage is already an average of models.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
09/19/15 11:04 PM
71.170.162.49
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Actually, in the one novel, they talk about the higher tech equipment they brought to the innersphere and they left it in an uninhabited system.
That would be Battletech #4 Wolf Pack Chapter 14 starting on page 127. I just happen to be reading that book and just read that chapter today at work.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
09/20/15 03:04 AM
76.89.121.69
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The way they make it sound, ALL weapons were exactly the same damage in their class.
But the fluff of some units had the caliper size of the shell different. The 185 jetchem ac 20 on the original demolisher was different then the ac on other units, (I know is a different size, just don't remember the unit) for an ac 20.
There was some fluff about gauss rifles in the gunslinger saying the shared design used generic parts so both fedcom and combine would use the same specs as they used a common set of gauss rifles.
So yeah. Equipment would not fit different mechs from different manufacturers. If they did the concept of the omni pods would not have been so difficult to come up with.
Hell the fluff for them mercury even suggested they were all differing, since it states the medium lasers used in it was pair to run the same mounting brackets. Implying that was not the case in other units.
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happyguy49
09/20/15 07:53 AM
98.30.242.159
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RE: Comstar
Considering the revelation of Comstar's shenanigans during and after the Clan invasion, and ESPECIALLY the horrors of the Blakist's jihad, I see no way in hell that any great or even minor power would allow them to continue their monopoly. To me it is one of the bigger plot holes in the Dark Age timeline. Grey Monday is something that shouldn't have happened in the first place! Because at that point Comstar would be a memory.. with the Houses, periphery powers, big corporations, even larger mercenary units owning and operating their OWN private HPGs.
Also, read up on the Black Boxes... the speed at which they communicate would actually be perfectly fine for most applications. It isn't useful for fast person-to-person communication.. but general alerts about an attack, prices of goods/commodities, data on shipping, planetary news, interstellar news, all that basic stuff, would be fine to send via black box. Kind of like an interstellar "news ticker". Why arent Black Boxes ubiquitous? Every inhabited world and ship should have several; aren't they the size of a fax machine or briefcase? Unless they are somehow stupendously expensive?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Box
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ghostrider
09/20/15 01:01 PM
76.89.121.69
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I would agree after their operation Scorpion went into effect, the houses would have moved against them. It was the Prime Martial that was able to prevent that from happening. There are other factors that did play a part, such as back water worlds did think comstar was the savoir of the innersphere. Sounds stupid, but they did have complete control over what information they got.
And I agree. By that time, the black boxes would have been on more fedcom worlds then what it was. When Luthien was attacked, the combine admitted they had the black box technology as well, since they had sent a text stating the clans had shown up in system. Granted novels, but it seems the canon updates supported that fact.
And even being expensive as hell, having a command express of them to the capitals of the marches as well as important worlds would override the expense to keep them safe,. Kathil and Galax come to mind.
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Akirapryde2006
09/21/15 06:36 PM
50.88.83.241
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I had this really nice long rant about Plot Holes regarding WOB and Comstar during the Jihad Era. However somehow my subject line got removed and the entire post disappeared as I tried to respond with my post.
So here are my (limited) thoughts on the matter.
Since the creation of the Word of Blake, the authors had expected the readers to take large leaps of faith in this story arc. The authors had not only violated their own canon regarding to the SDS of Terra and the massive increase of forces that WOB built up in such a short period of time. But they also disregarded standard battle concepts in regards to WMD's within the universe as well as the Geo-Political between factions.
As for the Black Boxes and Comstar/WOB's HPG Network, this is another massive hole in the entire Dark Ages plot let alone the Jihad Era. With their respective White Out and Black Out plot drivers, how did the powers somehow loss the ability to communicate with these devices in play. Again, its like the authors expect the readers to take another leap of faith. Being a former military vet who's career was in communication, I know that one of the best ways to restore communication was simply Shut the system down. Change the channel and reboot the system. By the time both of these events occurred, there were enough scientists around to protect military communications.
I just wish someone would right a Errata stating that the Authors would like to apologize for the crap that has become the Jihad Era and the Dark Ages. Then rewrite this section of Inner Sphere History. *sighs* But I am sure this wont happen.
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Karagin
09/21/15 08:15 PM
70.118.139.48
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Well we can dream for something like that to happen.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Akirapryde2006
09/21/15 08:30 PM
50.88.83.241
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@Karagin: I am surprised that others feel the same way as I do about these two periods of time within the game.
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ghostrider
09/21/15 08:50 PM
76.89.121.69
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Plot holes? What plot holes?
You mean those people that worked on hpgs for their entire lives had no idea how to fix them with simple software failures?
That they didn't have some sort of back up for all the hpgs? or at least the major ones?
That some how, wob was able to disable all hpgs in the innersphere and I would assume the clan worlds as well, since they didn't seem to wipe out the infidels living in it while they couldn't communicate, yet their warships had hpgs?
And as you said, some how managed to grow an army of units without ever training them and never set off any ones interest or spys?
And the stupid thing is, it was authorized by the developers, otherwise the game would not have followed/lead to the story line. I guess too many issues pop up when everyone isn't in the dark ages fighting. Things like being able to coordinate hundreds of mech regiments as well as thousands of armored ones, and not being able to stop invaders?
This isn't the game you are thinking of.. Move along.
*waves hand*
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Akirapryde2006
09/21/15 10:06 PM
50.88.83.241
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@ ghostrider: LOL So so true....
But my favorite is the Battle Mars (Dragoons vs WOB)
I love how Victor, the leader of the ComGuards forgot to mention the very unimportant fact that Terra was protected by a SDS. I mean being the leader of the ComGuards would have known that the ComGuards were in charge of these systems while they controlled Terra (which was mentioned in the Comstar Source Book). But I can see how such a minor fact like that could have been over looked by Victor.
However if we acknowledged these mysterious sites than the entire invasion of Terra by WOB would be drawn in to question.
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ghostrider
09/22/15 10:46 AM
76.89.121.69
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I guess I missed the part where comstar or someone else invaded earth to take it back from wob after operation scorpion. Or did they forget that fact and have then invade again?
Like I said, my knowledge of most of the story line isn't really there after the time before the treaty of tukiyudd expired.
If I recall, wob used the cover of the 21st century lancers as the way to get to the planet to 'surprise' the defenses there, while Fosct (?) focused on the clans. I know the houses formed the starleague, but really didn't read how they got earth back. So that tells you the last part of the history I do know.
And with that, I don't know how the FWL handled being with WOB or the IS in that one.
I assume the IS/comstar won earth back, so how was wob able to survive afterwards to become the boogie man in the jihad?'
If house Davion was soo good at keeping the factions in the FWL at odds, they damn sure should have been able to see wob forces hiding there. But I guess you could say communications would be the issue to that. Still sounds like a stretch. Then again, this is coming from the same people that tell you the house could not find ppc manufacturing plants in their territory or secret factories for mechs as well.
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Akirapryde2006
09/22/15 12:19 PM
71.100.132.249
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Ghostrider, don't feel lost. Trust me, I know the feeling. I took a extended break due to family issues from gaming. When I came back, Dark Ages was in full swing and I was like what the hack is going on!
Here let me enlighten you. During the Jihad Terra system was attacked not once but three times.)
The Battle of Mars (between Wolf's Dragoons and WOB) in 3067
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battle_of_Mars
Then a year later Comstar under Victor Davion launched Case White:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Case_White_%28event%29
However what I can't believe is how uniformed Comstar was that allowed them to loss nearly ninety percent of their entire fleet ( http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ComStar_WarShip_Fleet )
But the authors again wants us to believe that the very people who build and manned these SDS systems prior to the fall of Terra ten years before knew nothing of the scope of the defenses. Or that maybe WOB was so rapid in expanding them that they out paced even the Clans in building up this system.
But don't worry, the authors of this roller coaster gives us hope. There is the third and final invasion of Terra led by Devlin Stone.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_SCOUR#Liberation_of_Terra
I know I am sounding a bit grumpy about all this. I don't mean to discredit the actually work that these Authors had put in to the material. Some of it is really remarkable reading. But it is the passage of logic that they take to reach these ends. They knew what they wanted in the end, a massive war for Terra and the final end of WOB as a Inner Sphere power. But the way they went to get there, in my opinion, was just wrong.
Because of this, we are stuck with a canon universe that defies not only military logic and reasoning but forces the die hard fans like myself to really make some serious leaps of faith because this is what they created.
Akira
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ghostrider
09/22/15 03:27 PM
76.89.121.69
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Just read those wiki links. Very interesting that not a single person in the innersphere besides the Blakists knew those systems were working.
Also, when the clans invaded, comstar didn't even think of setting them up in Terra incase the clans made it that far.
And the fact the clans had no clue how to defeat the systems, despite the fact they had that information when they left the innersphere.
But then that destroys the ultimate weapons the 'good' guys have to fight in order to win. And the fact the planets took only a week or two to capture?
As well as the indiscriminate use of WMD the Blakists used. Along with their ability to build things that it seemed the rest of the innersphere could not build in centuries were done in a decade or so?
That is just garbage. It would be like someone plopping down a fully built base in the middle of new york, that no one knew about in a month, then taking over the eastern seaboard, and fortifying it with a death star by the end of next year. Continuity doesn't seem to exist in these story lines.
And this doesn't even extend to the double agents in ROM that comstar had in the WOB ranks. Really.
Edited by ghostrider (09/22/15 03:29 PM)
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Karagin
09/22/15 08:30 PM
72.176.176.175
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We can beat the dead horse of the WoB and their supernatural ability to pull off everything from taking Terra to building a super munchkin army without anyone know or caring till we have exhusted ourselves and you will find as I did that the powers that be aka the main staff at Battletech really don't care that many of us don't like the storyline or the out come, they only care about sales, and you guys will also find the rabid supports of the Jihad storyline who will attack and bash and insult etc...a person till they push them away from the game or away from the main BT sites.
No matter what is said as to how impossible the actions of the WoB are, the supports of the Jihad storyline will always answer with the following, they Terra and the Sol System, thus that allowed them to use all that is there to build their army, they had Gibson and the FWL and it's money gained from running the HPGs, (noting nothing is said of the HPG stations that didn't automatically side with the WoB in the FWL), then comes my favorite they were skimming money and tech from the weapons and tech companies, someone would have noticed this a lot faster then most other things and noticed the trail etc..., then if that hasn't convinced you to just give up, then comes the hidden worlds and how those allowed them to do things.
Really it comes down to this, TPTB wanted to clean house, the game was bloated, folks were losing interest, and they had to merge things with the Click Tech game, so off we go on the adventure from hell, no more Uber merc units, no more Uber Clans, no more Uber Houses, boom back to smaller more control able elements.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
09/22/15 08:32 PM
72.176.176.175
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As for the Dragoons attacking Mars, yeah that made as much sense as anything else in the whole Jihad deal, the Dragoons had the intel and knew they would not stand a chance, but I guess hero's death ride makes more sense.
CASE WHITE...aka the Invasion of Poland only done up with a Battletech feel and theme and the reversal of who is the powerhouse.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
09/22/15 08:56 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
Akirapryde2006 writes:
The authors had not only violated their own canon regarding to the SDS of Terra
If you're referring to the SDS in the Jihad, not really. The SLDF gutted Terra's SDS centers at the end of the Star League Civil War. Centuries later, Terra didn't have much to work with to deal with WoB's invasion or ComStar's Case White. The SDS of the 31st Century was a shadow of its 28th Century self and wasn't much of a factor.
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and the massive increase of forces that WOB built up in such a short period of time.
There was no massive increase, and you need to be careful of internet rumors that say there was. WoB built forces at a slower rate than any House, let alone ComStar's post-Tukayyid recovery. The numbers and rates of WoB's military expansion are spelled out in Jihad Secrets, p. 11-14, and they aren't exceptional.
Akira, you need to be careful about your information sources. The published version of the Jihad is often at odds with what internet forums describe about the Jihad. A classic example are WoB forces. If you believe teh interwebs, WoB suddenly unleashed 200 regiments with no warning on the Inner Sphere in its quest to eat all human babies.
If you read the books, you'll find that WoB didn't suddenly attack everyone but rather took years (to c3071) to really get its Jihad started, and that the WoB militia wasn't terribly large - it was effective because the Inner Sphere and Clans were busy killing each other and ignored a minor faction in the middle of that conflict.
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But they also disregarded standard battle concepts in regards to WMD's within the universe
Nope, we paid a lot of attention to the use of WMDs in BT, both historical and in the Jihad. Firstly, we made sure that WMD in the Jihad was far lighter than in the First and Second Succession Wars. The Houses and WoB used WMDs here and there, but there was nothing like the repeated pole-to-pole nuclear exterminations of the early Succession Wars. One of the deadliest bioweapons, the Plague of Galedon, was actually an accidental release from a House stockpile that had nothing to do with WoB.
Second, those early Succession Wars did result in a 150-year cessation of WMD usage, but that was six generations without seeing firsthand damage from nukes. The historical trend is that humans are likely to go about one or two generations without major wars or use of terrible weapons between old foes before they forget how bad war was and try again. Six generations was an exceptional gap. The dam was bound to burst at some point.
For example, I'm sure you remember that after the bombardment of Turtle Bay by the Clans, Hanse Davion was came within a hair of unleashing nuclear weapons against the Clans - in 3051. The Ghost Bears came within a hair of killing billions of Rasalhague citizens by orbital bombardment in c3052 when they couldn't control revolts on occupied FRR worlds. The WMD genie finally got loose again in the mid-3060s, at the hands of Davion loyalists in the FC Civil War. See: Atomic Annie. WoB was late to the WMD game, and only started using WMDs when Wolf Dragoons struck at the Terran system.
WoB had well-enumerated reasons for its WMD usage. Besides the pre-Jihad bombardment of Outreach, WoB was planning to take on the Clans c3067, and the Clans had larger and more technologically capable military forces. (In fact, any two Clans outnumbered WoB - again, see Jihad Secrets.) The Clans also had many more WarShips, which could arguably act as WMDs, and many of WoB's ComStar veterans had been traumatized fighting the Clans on Tukayyid. So, WoB planned to use WMDs against the Clans. It was a logical outgrowth of trends in the universe, but most of the Jihad was fought conventionally.
There was over fifteen real world years of writing to set up WoB's WMD use, starting with the Clan Invasion and its orbital bombardment (pub. 1990), going to the ComStar schism (again, c1990), and then the FedCom Civil War. Novels and sourcebooks together set up increasing WMD usage and new generations of combatants who'd forgotten the lessons of the early Succession Wars. I'm sorry if you missed all that work, but it wasn't a case of writers ignoring BT's ground rules that applied in just the Third Succession War.
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as well as the Geo-Political between factions.
The original conflicts in the Jihad strictly followed old factional conflicts. The Jihad kicked off at the collapse of the New Star League in 3067 when WoB orbitally bombarded two cities on Tharkad and New Avalon and then went off and mostly sulked for several years. WoB was not effectively involved in the Jihad until almost 3070. What happened next was:
1) The FedSuns' Capellan March blamed the Capellan Confederation for colluding with WoB to attack Tharkad, because the Confederation had been receiving aid from WoB and the Capellan March had centuries of hate for the Confederation. It didn't take much to set off the March's invasion of the Confederation. The Confederation, which had actually just blown off WoB, responded angrily, but entirely per its usual "geo-politic."
2) The FedSun's Draconis March declared that the Draconis Combine was holding Davion prisoners of war and went to rescue them by invading the Combine. The Combine, per its usual character, responded angrily to the unsupported March.
3) The Lyran Federation of Skye declared that the presence of FWLM ships in WoB hands meant that the FWL was aiding WoB in attacking Tharkad, so Skye invaded the FWL singlehandedly. The FWL responded angrily, but entirely in character to a Lyran attack.
4) Ultra-conservative Combine forces, the Black Dragon society, started a private war with the Ghost Bears because they were sick of the nambly-pambly Coordinator and his lack of total universal domination. If you read any book about House Kurita, you'll note there's a substantial fraction of the Combine that isn't happy if it isn't trying to conquer the universe. The Ghost Bears' holding of Combine worlds was unacceptable.
5) Asteroids suspiciously bombarded the capital of the Taurian Concordat (this was a WoB false flag operation; WoB was angry with the Federated Suns). In proper Concordat fashion, they ignored any contradictory evidence and instead decided the Federated Suns was responsible, and invaded the Suns.
6) The Jade Falcons saw the Lyran Alliance was distracted with the FWL and exhausted from the FedCom Civil War. It invaded the Lyrans. Unless you know something I don't about the Clans, its strictly in their geo-politics to try to conquer the Inner Sphere, especially since the Tukayyid Truce ended in 3067.
7) Some Homeworld Clans, like the Hellions, wanted in on the Inner Sphere action and invaded the Inner Sphere Clans' corridor. Again, that's normal Clan behavior.
8 ) It shouldn't be forgotten that two major factions, the Lyran Alliance and Federated Suns, were exhausted from a multi-year, WarShips-and-WMDs civil war when the Jihad started.
By about 3070, those conflicts were winding down and the various factions realized only group was still pounding war drums: WoB. All WoB's sideshow, pinprick attacks in the late 3060s - talking a core planet into seceding here, destroying a factory there - were something that could finally be noticed.
These conflicts followed long-standing hatreds, political pressures, and factional behaviors in the BT universe. Unless there's some obscure BT publication about the mid-31st Century Years of Total Peace, Harmony, and Forgiveness that writers forgot.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
09/22/15 10:47 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I guess I missed the part where comstar or someone else invaded earth to take it back from wob after operation scorpion. Or did they forget that fact and have then invade again?
Terra's timeline around the Jihad went like this:
1) ComStar was one big, happy family until 3052, but it should be noted it was a crazy, loony cult that was also the biggest banker, biggest phone company, and had about the 10th largest military. In 3052, it won the epic Clan trial at Tukayyid.
2) ComStar's loony cult leaders decided that was the perfect time to launch Operation Scorpion, which would bring down the Inner Sphere and Clans and let ComStar march in to victory. Most of ComStar refused to play along, and the chief of the ComGuards shot the cultish ComStar Primus. He installed a secular new administration over ComStar.
3) The cult-like chunk of ComStar personnel fled to the Free Worlds League and were given shelter on Gibson, a very tolerant and multi-cultural planet. These ComStar expatriates felt they were upholding the teachings of ComStar's founder, Blake, and decided to call themselves the Word of Blake.
It should be noted that many people who remained behind in the new, improved ComStar were incredibly sympathetic to the cultists who ran off. After all, the Inner Sphere had spent centuries treating Blake's teachings like a religion and many planets spent more time worshipping toasters than in churches.
It should also be noted that Terra, after centuries under old ComStar, had its Blakist fans. See JHS:Terra for a summary of Terrans' opinions.
(Amusingly, the varied and tolerant Gibsonites got fed up with the proto-WoBblies and tried to nuke them over a decade before the WoBblies started doing the same thing. Yes, WMDs were in play before the Jihad and before the FedCom Civil War.)
4) WoB started a serious diplomatic push, arriving at House Lords' doors with pamphlets about Blake's Teachings and goodies like WarShips and lostech. The Free Worlds League fell for that hook, line, and sinker, and got the largest WarShip navy outside the Clans. The Capellan Confederation was much more cynical in its alliance with WoB.
5) TERRA: Finally, I'm getting to Terra. In 3057, WoB was back on its feet. Meanwhile, the ComGuards were up to their necks in Operation Bulldog and the Great Refusal off in the Clan homeworlds. It was at this point that WoB jumped for Terra, and you find out why I talked about points 1 to 4 before talking about Terra.
WoB "invaded" Terra in the sense that it sent troops there and fought some ComGuard personnel opposed to it. However, its many Terran sympathizers allowed its troops to get through a lot of Terran space traffic control, and the ComGuard sympathizers paralyzed the already-anemic SDS reaction. See: The Fall of Terra, which provides a lot of detail on how understaffed Terra's defenses were and how the Blakists compromised them before the shooting started.
6) The Word of Blake tried to set up a new Terran Hegemony in the Chaos March. It viewed these worlds as classic examples of Blake's teaches: battered, mauled, and gutted by machinations of Amaris in the House. Since everything was going so well in the Inner Sphere - the Star League had been reborn! - it was time for WoB to get diplomatic and help out those abandoned core worlds. As discussed in JHS:Terra and JHS:Reckoning, WoB did this by letting the Terrans do their thing. It wasn't robe-wearing, toaster-worshipping Blakists that built the Protectorate, it was Terran businessmen and leaders selling the vision of a revived Hegemony.
Except there were they jerks on Outreach that kept attacking Blake as it was trying to bring peace to the Chaos March. They wanted war. They made money from war. They used perverted technology into killing. All of that was against Blake's teachings, so the Dragoons had to go. WoB felt pretty clever, too: it hired a bunch of disgruntled mercenaries already on Outreach to wipe out the Dragoons. Poetic justice and all that. This attack on Outreach did kill many Wolf Dragoons, but Dragoon regiments elsewhere figured out WoB was responsible and attacked Mars. (Terra was too tough for a few regiments was the Dragoon thinking.)
Mars turned out to be too tough for the Dragoons, too, since that was the WoB secret HQ. Everyone would attack Terra, right? But the attack on Mars convinced WoB that the Dragoons were a lot scarier than they were, so WoB counter-counterattacked by nuking one of Outreach's continents. For the record, that conflict is not considered part of the Jihad.
7) Then the new Star League collapsed. WoB had a hissy fit against the factions responsible. It bombarded Tharkad, invaded New Avalon but was defeated easily, and sulked for several years doing raids here and there and expanding the Protectorate slowly while the Houses and Clans were busy killing each other.
8 ) TERRA: ComStar, meanwhile, saw the bombardment of Outreach and attacks on Tharkad and New Avalon, and decided it was time to reclaim Terra. It had planned for this, Case White. If all that had mattered was Terra's military defenses and still-pathetic SDS, ComStar would've won a messy victory. Instead, several of its critical WarShips had pro-Blakist mutinies or suffered sabotage. Vital troop ships were blown up by those traitors and the few revived SDS ships WoB had mustered. ComGuards on the ground found not all Terrans welcomed them as liberators, but ratted them out. So, Case White failed just short of victory.
9) About ten years later (c3076) when the Coalition arrived at Terra to wipe out WoB, the Terran SDS was in much better shape, but the Coalition was well prepared for those defenses. Likewise, Terrans - who were not brainwashed toaster worshippers - had figured out WoB were jerks and helped undermine the SDS defenses.
Quote:
And with that, I don't know how the FWL handled being with WOB or the IS in that one.
The Free Worlds League's leadership was pro-WoB; some of its recent leaders had served in pre-Schism ComStar. Then WoB worked hard at being diplomatic with the FWL, offering a lot of technological aid that help the FWL keep up with Lyran competitors. For example, the FWL's WarShip forces and shipyards got a big boost from WoB aid.
When WoB was identified as a serious boogieman to the FWL and the Captain-General was found to be a former WoB/ComStar agent, the House sort of came apart. The Free Worlds was already the most fragmented and factional of the Houses - it even had individual continents (like New Olympica) that got representation in the Free Worlds parliament. Its major member-states like Andurien and Regulus liked to think of themselves as independent nations that just happened to be allies of convenience under the Marik banner. Different contending leaders fought to be Captain-General, then just gave the whole thing up.
Quote:
I assume the IS/comstar won earth back, so how was wob able to survive afterwards to become the boogie man in the jihad?'
ComStar lost its battle at Terra in 3067, the infamous Case White, as discussed above.
However, WoB didn't rush out and attack everyone with an imaginary giant army. Instead, the Inner Sphere started a free-for-all brawl of border wars, like I described in my other post today. WoB sort of sulked after the fall of the new Star League. Its only coherent actions before 3070 were primarily to keep helping Terrans build the new Blake Protectorate out of the disgruntled, abused core worlds of the Inner Sphere.
While the Houses and Clans were kicking each other's butts, WoB sort of ran around that barroom brawl, picking a pocket here, nuking a factory there. WoB's antics didn't amount to much when (for example) the Free Worlds League had briefly conquered a dozen Lyran worlds, or when the Ghost Bears destroyed a half dozen Combine regiments. I mean, the Federated Suns just pulled itself out of a civil war to watch two of its three provinces run off to start wars with other entire Houses. WoB? They were something to deal with later.
WoB became the boogie man when all the OTHER wars of the Jihad started settling down and everyone started noticing their wallets were missing and they had nuclear craters spelling out "WoB wuz here" on some of their vital factories. The Houses' core worlds, the ones the Houses had rightfully and brutally seized from the Terran Hegemony 300 years earlier and then spent 80 years nuking into rubble, were turning up in this new Blakist Protectorate thing. This moment of recognition was around 3070-3072.
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If house Davion was soo good at keeping the factions in the FWL at odds, they damn sure should have been able to see wob forces hiding there.
House Davion had nothing to do with keeping FWL's factions at odds. See JHS:Dawn of the Jihad, JHS:3070, JHS:3072, and JHS:3076.
It would be really worthwhile to read p. 11-14 of Jihad Secrets. EVERYONE knew WoB was building a secret army. The mistake by every intelligence agency in the Inner Sphere was in two parts:
1) No one foresaw the House leaders dismissing the new Star League - the leaders didn't consult with their intelligence agencies before they cut out an expensive, useless part of their budget. (The new Star League existed to fight the Clans. They won in 3058. The Star League's purpose was done.) It wasn't really a question for intel agencies to get involved with.
2) Since no one could foresee point 1, no one knew to run the scenario, "What would WoB do if the new Star League collapsed?"
Even if they knew to ask those questions, WoB was a minor threat in the late 3060s. The Houses and Clans went at it hammer and tongs in a way that hadn't been seen since the original Clan invasion.
Quote:
But I guess you could say communications would be the issue to that. Still sounds like a stretch. Then again, this is coming from the same people that tell you the house could not find ppc manufacturing plants in their territory or secret factories for mechs as well.
I'm not sure I follow the point. When did a House ever have secret PPC or 'Mech factories in its borders?
If you're referring to WoB's hidden worlds, the problem is that the Inner Sphere has about 2 million stars but the Houses only occupy about 2000 of them, leaving 1000 uninhabited system for every inhabited system. Further, by the Third Succession War JumpShips only numbered in the thousands and those were all very busy keeping interstellar civilization alive. There were none to spare to scout the hundreds of thousands of uninhabited stars in each House.
BattleTech also has no miracle sensor to remotely monitor star systems - see Explorer Corps and Strategic Operations for sensor rules. The longest-ranged sensors are jump detectors that can't cover an entire star system (only a few astronomical units), let alone light-years.
Further, because of the catastrophic losses of JumpShips in the Succession Wars, no one is willing to travel through those millions of uninhabited systems. A JumpShip that suffers a mechanical failure in an uninhabited system will have no hope of rescue because its radio signals will take years to reach civilization and no one else is likely to pick the same uninhabited star for transit.
This situation means those 2 million uninhabited systems of the Inner Sphere are essentially impossible to monitor. The only reason some of WoB's "hidden worlds" were found is that they were based on known, abandoned systems, ones that used to be on the maps but were nuked off them.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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DavidG
09/22/15 11:38 PM
96.29.193.32
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Cray, thank you very much for all the info on how the WoB achieved what they did. I have been out of Battletech until recently. You explanation was great. It filled in a lot of what has happened in the BT universe for me.
David
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ghostrider
09/23/15 12:45 AM
76.89.121.69
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In the older books, it was said that several ppcs factories in the FWL were making ppcs that the Mariks did not know about. I want to say Anduriens were doing it, but would have to break out the books to say where it was at.
Now with WOB owning terra and it seems implied the entire network of hpgs, what did comstar use for money to not only maintain their items, but build/buy new ones?
Now considering the fact the developers used the ideas that the rest of the innersphere did not have the resources to upgrade squat for decades, only to have WOB pop the stuff up is a sticking point with this.
I understand Sol have the sds system being disabled and restarting it, but the other worlds outside the sol system comes to question.
It also calls into question that jump ships and even normal traders would have visited more then just the Sol system and no word what so ever got out to others? This would include what Comstar knew was there to begin with. And having unihabited systems does not mean jump ships would not or do not visit those systems as they go about the trading routes. Yes, range is a factor. I can see why they removed the bug eyes since it destroys that concept of not sitting at a pirate point and actually scanning a system with.. I don't know.. Telescopes and such. And that goes counter to WOB agents spying on comstar, yet not a single person in WOB ever defected or was a double agent? Not a single person with some information jumped ship in a house territory?
And this is even ignoring the fact everyone knew WOB had it out for Comstar, which goes back to how Comstar kept money flowing if they did not run any hpgs.
Also with your example of Gibson revolting, you are saying they never got any idea of the future expansion plans from WOB bases they were in?
This is just too much of one side can wave a wand and do what ever it wants to, but the other side can't even forge a sword from a lack of iron and coal.
And then someone was able to shut down the entire comms network a short while later and nothing could be done with it at all? I find that very inconsistent with the way WOB could do things, but the rest of the universe could not.
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ghostrider
09/23/15 12:52 AM
76.89.121.69
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Maybe we should move this to a different thread, since there are other things in this one, I would like to keep open for discussion.
And in some of the source books, during the 4th war, it said Janos Marik started gaining support from the factions in the FWL because of the comstar interdiction cut funding from Fedsuns to provactuers in his state. Was that in error, or did they change all of that on a whim to keep from having to keep continuity?
And I agree, they had to destroy a lot of the 'named' units. Hard to keep the money in house when you have to pay royalties for units that were old.
Which also leads to the question about the Dragoon raid. Why is it hard to believe they did NOT know about the sds system in Sol?
More then a few were star league historians according to the scenario packs. I believe the original Cronstans irregulars had that in there. Anything dealing with star league history should have referred to that system.
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ghostrider
09/23/15 12:59 AM
76.89.121.69
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and one more dumb question. Which clan became the ilclan as they were the first to land on Terra?
I doubt they gave up that dream just because they were part of a coalition of forces to liberate it.
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Karagin
09/23/15 06:39 AM
72.176.176.175
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David all Cray is doing is defending stuff he worked or helped with. He expects, actually no I think it is more hope then expecting, us to believe, as do the PTB, that the WoB goes from a splinter group with the loony bin nut cases of ComStar into an over night as far as the BT universe goes, super group that can rebuild warships, aguement humans into cybrogs, build and support mechs,vehicles, infantry, power armor, etc...all without anyone knowing or caring and he will quote the Jihad books day and night. What he is failing to mention is it took folks like me, Cadet and others to question things and point issues for anything to come about on HOW they (WoB) did anything. And it also took a lot of arguments and insulting bickering to even get this far. I again point out the cost of a single mech to include spare parts, ammo etc...and Cray does expect us to believe that WoB can cover these things easily, yet we see enough through out the BT plethora of novels, sourcebooks etc...about how the cost of upkeep etc...is even hard for a House to do, but some how WoB is able to man and support high tech regiments and warships etc...with realitive ease while staying one to two steps ahead of the rest of entirety of the House Lords and the Clans.
Cray hopes his take on things is enough to keep the topic dead or at lest less of an issue, some of the "fixes" are good ones, but again something on the scale that the WoB is said to have done would have been noticed soon and changed the focus of many intel units to keep more of an eye on if not out right try to stop things. It also seems that the PTB took the idea that folks believe their enemies to be 10 feet tall, which is a good thing to assume since that means you prepare like they are, even though you know really they are not, keeps thing interesting.
WoB's Jihad was nothing more then a chance to clean up the BT universe, the authors and writers and design staff used it to smack down the super groups and it was also used to blend in the Dark Age stuff that had to have a home.
And Cray there are NO Internet rumors, there are just a group of fans who did not drink the flavor aid and put on the rose color glasses late 1990s early 2000s and just accept the whole of the Jihad unquestioned so please how about you accept that and stop trying to marginalize things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
09/23/15 07:02 AM
72.176.176.175
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Now IF ComStar had from the end of the war against Amaris to aftermath of Tuykaid (sorry about spelling), to even build up their military, again based on remaining SLDF units that sided with Blake after Kerensky left, why would they ignore or not repair the SDS in the Sol system? It's not like they forgot how, and as has been so repeated over and over again, this is the Terran system, where high tech is present and they would know how to do things.
The SDS is the one thing that gives ComStar and WoB an edge, it means they don't have to worry about their home base being attacked, we are told that the WoB got around it using subterfuge and insider agents to turn it off and allow their main force to land after the Lancers are found out to be fake.
So why would they ignore the SDS? And the Titian Shipyards, what about those? See the issue I am getting here is we don't know have info on the Terran system, in that we hear a lot about it but yet there is next to nothing actually written about it in the detailed hey here is what they have kind of thing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/23/15 12:07 PM
98.150.102.177
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Did comstar have the sds running when WoB attacked? I thought someone said it was not working at the time.
And there is a big issue with it working that I would like cleared up. Being automated, does that mean after they designate a target or is it like iff and fires on anything that doesn't send the friendly code?
I remember one of the weapons manufacturers being based on Terra that sold weapons to the rest of the innersphere and periphery. I wanted to say it was Aldis industries, but in the quick look, can't find it. That would mean non comstar/wob ships would be entering earths orbit without the iff, or that it would be on ships that could be boarded or copied.
And one more thing comes to mind. It was said ecm played a roll in keeping the Dragoons and later comstar from doing much, but does that mean the invaders didn't have their own ecm going?
And as for using WMD. WoB used as many as the entire succesion wars in a mater of like 25 years. It was stated they used it in attacking other worlds as well as defense. They use of them alone would have had the houses primed to remove wob at any cost and would have set off the attacks as soon as the clans were dealt with. It even states they used nukes to destroy the Dragoons on Outreach.
Or did I miss something there?
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Cray
09/23/15 07:35 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
In the older books, it was said that several ppcs factories in the FWL were making ppcs that the Mariks did not know about. I want to say Anduriens were doing it, but would have to break out the books to say where it was at.
The House Marik Sourcebook noted that the FWL was starved of PPC production and had to trade with the Capellans to get them, not that it had secret PPC factories. It painfully knew how few PPCs it was building and where all the factories were.
Quote:
Now with WOB owning terra and it seems implied the entire network of hpgs, what did comstar use for money to not only maintain their items, but build/buy new ones?
The implication is incorrect on a couple of levels. The minor point is that WoB only profitably ran the FWL's HPGs, and sometimes HPGs in the Chaos March and Periphery states. ComStar continued to operate most HPGs.
More importantly - as described in the ComStar Sourcebook, Fall of Terra, and A Time of War - ComStar and its splinter were not just "the HPG guys." They ran the largest bank in the Inner Sphere, the one that was guaranteed to be neutral (har har) and protected throughout the Succession Wars. Everybody banked with ComStar because when a neighboring House invaded your planet, you didn't have to worry about your money disappearing in the hands of the conquerors. That's why the C-bill was the universal currency: it was backed by the largest financial institution around.
Its said that General Motors is a bank with a car-building hobby. The same applies to ComStar and WoB: HPGs are a hobby on the side for a mammoth financial and media institution.
Further, they weren't just the largest bank and HPG operators. ComStar had spent over 200 years becoming the largest telecommunications company in the Inner Sphere. When a planet got nuked in the Succession Wars, ComStar (the bank) showed up to finance reconstruction and ComStar (the telephone/TV/internet guys) showed up to rebuild telecommunications. Their telecommunications business was an enormous vertical monopoly: they built the holovid sets, telephones, computers, music players, and noteputers; built the networks that supported them; ran a lot of the media companies; and (as a trivial side thing) provided interstellar communications. The ComStar Sourcebook and ATOW's "Touring the Sphere" chapter addresses some of the ways that ComStar abused this to make epic cash and cripple the Inner Sphere's technological recovery.
With that sort of cash, the ComGuards were just an advertising expense. ComStar probably spent more on office supplies than the ComGuards.
WoB had the benefit of taxes from Gibson and Terra, and financial aid from the FWL.
Quote:
Now considering the fact the developers used the ideas that the rest of the innersphere did not have the resources to upgrade squat for decades, only to have WOB pop the stuff up is a sticking point with this.
Resources weren't a problem for the Inner Sphere's upgrades. Cash and raw materials were plentiful. The problem was lack of knowhow, lack of factories, and lack of experience. You don't simply throw a trillion C-bills at your engineers and their 24th Century technology and yell, "Learn 28th Century Star League **** in a year!" As the saying goes, you can't make a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant. Some things simply take time: years to train up scientists and engineers; years to practice building lost technologies; years to retool factories.
The Inner Sphere jumped from the 24th/25th Century in 3030 to the 28th Century in 3050. It did damned good to cover 300-400 years in 20 years. You think Da Vinci could get his workshop building stealth bombers in 20 years?
WoB, on the other hand, had a world of people who understood Star League technology. Terra had never lost its technology to the Succession Wars. Hell, it had mothballed SLDF military factories instead of destroyed ones. Even so, it took WoB 10 years to really start benefiting from Terra's factories because they took time to dust off and get running. And, heck, ComStar had started the process in 3052 after Tukayyid. The ComGuards plundered the last Terran SLDF warehouses to rebuild from Tukayyid and realized that it was time to turn on Terra's factories. The factories weren't doing much by 3057 when WoB took over, but were enough to start fitting out WoB in the 3060s at a rate much slower than any House's industry.
While Terra got up and running, WoB still had plenty of knowhow it could share with its buddies. Its engineers shaved a few years off the FWL's WarShip programs, but didn't work super-duper miracles. The FWL, like the Federated Commonwealth, had started a WarShip program in the 3040s and was building shipyards in the 3050s. The FWL ended up with 40 WarShips to the FC's ~20 in the 3060s, but that lead wasn't going to be around forever. Things like the FedCom Civil War interrupted the FC's shipbuilding juggernaut.
Quote:
And having unihabited systems does not mean jump ships would not or do not visit those systems as they go about the trading routes. Yes, range is a factor.
Oh, uninhabited systems get used. Definitely they get used. Some core systems in the Lyran Commonwealth are more than a jump from their neighbors. However, the 2 million stars of the Inner Sphere don't all get visited because it's bad practice. Hence, no one spots WoB's secret worlds.
Quote:
I can see why they removed the bug eyes since it destroys that concept of not sitting at a pirate point and actually scanning a system with.. I don't know.. Telescopes and such.
The BugEye is in the game. It was recently republished, and TacOps had the subcompact drive introduced specifically to make the BugEye possible. However, the BugEye could never sit at a jump point and watch a whole system. Read TR:2750 and TR:3057: the BugEye would slip into planetary orbit disguised as a DropShip. Explorer Corps and StratOps simply codified what had already been codified about the BugEye: it had to get close to spy.
Quote:
And that goes counter to WOB agents spying on comstar, yet not a single person in WOB ever defected or was a double agent?
That's incorrect. As I explained yesterday - and gave you the necessary book and page reference - every House and ComStar had a pretty good intel picture on WoB. That calls for defectors, among other intelligence activities.
Quote:
Not a single person with some information jumped ship in a house territory?
Yes, they did jump ship, which is why the Houses and ComStar had a pretty good idea of WoB's capabilities in 3067. Not perfect, and they certainly had no idea what WoB would do if the new Star League collapsed since no one saw that coming, but they had a reasonable understanding of WoB's capabilities. That's why Case White almost worked.
As I explained yesterday, the problem is that no House intelligence agency was warned that the new Star League was going to be abandoned. They EXPECTED WoB to use its "secret" military against ComStar. They didn't see the Inner Sphere and Clans going at it in a "global" war, or that the Star League would be sundered, and thus didn't see WoB going off in a weird direction.
Ghostrider, do you have specific questions about Jihad Secrets p. 11-14?
Edited by Cray (09/23/15 07:47 PM)
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Akirapryde2006
09/23/15 08:47 PM
71.100.132.249
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I am going to go out on a limb here with this statement, but you (Cray) are a contributor or writer for the Universe. If this is true, then I envy you for your work will help create a the universe that we all love and enjoy. It is because of this, that I do hold you to a higher standard than I would others in such conversations. I am not attacking your work. As if it were to stand alone, it would be great work. I love some of the details that you have created. There is some really good plot and story arcs you have created. But it is the holes in the plots and the loss of continuity within the Universe as a whole that I have issues with. Please allow me to respectfully explain.
Quote:
Cray writes:
If you're referring to the SDS in the Jihad, not really. The SLDF gutted Terra's SDS centers at the end of the Star League Civil War. Centuries later, Terra didn't have much to work with to deal with WoB's invasion or ComStar's Case White. The SDS of the 31st Century was a shadow of its 28th Century self and wasn't much of a factor.
There is no written support to this claim in any of the FASA books covering the exodus. In fact in the original Star League Source book it states that the majority of the supplies they took were food stores. While it did state that they took other supplies with them, the Comstar Source book states that what remained of the Terra SDS was left in the hands of Comstar. I do not argue that the system was badly damaged and in need of repairs. That being said…..
While not a war monger, Blake knew the importance of military might. He accepted former SLDF Units that had promised to support Comstar (thanks to a special request from General Kerensky to SLDF Units remaining behind). Blake used military force to secure Terra during the final phase of Operation Silver Shield. Blake also sent Comstar dropships to New Earth to pick clean the SLDF Headquarters of everything (nothing was mentioned that the Headquarters of the SLDF was gutted, further disproving your claim). Everything Blake did during these critical months after the Exodus reflects that Comstar had a clear understanding of the importance of military might.
Quote:
Cray writes:
Nope, we paid a lot of attention to the use of WMDs in BT, both historical and in the Jihad. Firstly, we made sure that WMD in the Jihad was far lighter than in the First and Second Succession Wars. The Houses and WoB used WMDs here and there, but there was nothing like the repeated pole-to-pole nuclear exterminations of the early Succession Wars. One of the deadliest bioweapons, the Plague of Galedon, was actually an accidental release from a House stockpile that had nothing to do with WoB.
Second, those early Succession Wars did result in a 150-year cessation of WMD usage, but that was six generations without seeing firsthand damage from nukes. The historical trend is that humans are likely to go about one or two generations without major wars or use of terrible weapons between old foes before they forget how bad war was and try again. Six generations was an exceptional gap. The dam was bound to burst at some point.
For example, I'm sure you remember that after the bombardment of Turtle Bay by the Clans, Hanse Davion was came within a hair of unleashing nuclear weapons against the Clans - in 3051. The Ghost Bears came within a hair of killing billions of Rasalhague citizens by orbital bombardment in c3052 when they couldn't control revolts on occupied FRR worlds. The WMD genie finally got loose again in the mid-3060s, at the hands of Davion loyalists in the FC Civil War. See: Atomic Annie. WoB was late to the WMD game, and only started using WMDs when Wolf Dragoons struck at the Terran system.
WoB had well-enumerated reasons for its WMD usage. Besides the pre-Jihad bombardment of Outreach, WoB was planning to take on the Clans c3067, and the Clans had larger and more technologically capable military forces. (In fact, any two Clans outnumbered WoB - again, see Jihad Secrets.) The Clans also had many more WarShips, which could arguably act as WMDs, and many of WoB's ComStar veterans had been traumatized fighting the Clans on Tukayyid. So, WoB planned to use WMDs against the Clans. It was a logical outgrowth of trends in the universe, but most of the Jihad was fought conventionally.
There was over fifteen real world years of writing to set up WoB's WMD use, starting with the Clan Invasion and its orbital bombardment (pub. 1990), going to the ComStar schism (again, c1990), and then the FedCom Civil War. Novels and sourcebooks together set up increasing WMD usage and new generations of combatants who'd forgotten the lessons of the early Succession Wars. I'm sorry if you missed all that work, but it wasn't a case of writers ignoring BT's ground rules that applied in just the Third Succession War.
I will concede that the Clan Invasion ushered in a new era in warfare. However even among the Clans such behavior was considered dishonorable. Like the Inner Sphere, the Clans were able to see firsthand the effects of such brutal forms of combat during the Exodus Civil War. Prior to the return of the Clans, such use of WMD was considered the ultimate act against humanity. Within the Clans and Inner Sphere no one dared even consider their use.
So let’s look at the first recorded use of WMD by the Clans. Turtle Bay was during the first wave of the Clan Invasion. The capital of the world was orbital bombarded by Clan Smoke Jaguar. The act triggered backlash across the entire Clans and even the hardest of the Hardliners of the Crusaders saw the act as cowardice. There is no evidence within any of the Clan Source Book that supports the clam that this act was accepted within the entire Clan Society or even within the Smoke Jaguars. It was viewed as nothing less than sheer barbarity. In doing so, Galaxy Commander Perez lost his command and honor because of Turtle Bay. The act brought an end to Clan warships being used in future combat roles (Invading Clans, page 58). So the use of WMDs by the Clans was not something that was accepted as you suggest. In fact the opposite has been proven in a number of novels and in the Clan Source Books.
Quote:
Cray writes:
(Amusingly, the varied and tolerant Gibsonites got fed up with the proto-WoBblies and tried to nuke them over a decade before the WoBblies started doing the same thing. Yes, WMDs were in play before the Jihad and before the FedCom Civil War.)
I read the book covering the birth of the Knights of the Inner Sphere. I have it here somewhere in the house, so given the reason I can even give you a page number on this. It was WoB that used Davy Crockets. Thomas Marik was so outraged at the WoB, he threatened to cast them out of FWL space and turn them in to Inner Sphere Refugees. This only happened once and remaining weapons on Gibson were destroyed by the Knights under the explicit orders of Thomas Marik.
As for Marik’s close relationship to WoB, that was well known to everyone. He was even offered the position of Primus of the WoB, though he did end up rejecting it. So I don’t see how this could have caused the FWL’s to fall apart when it was common knowledge for nearly a decade prior to this.
Quote:
Cray writes:
The original conflicts in the Jihad strictly followed old factional conflicts. The Jihad kicked off at the collapse of the New Star League in 3067 when WoB orbitally bombarded two cities on Tharkad and New Avalon and then went off and mostly sulked for several years. WoB was not effectively involved in the Jihad until almost 3070. What happened next was:
I thought about going through and item by item explaining how each of your line items were not practical. However it is as if the authors wanted to hit the entire universe with a hammer and get things stirred up. As you said, no one foresaw the end of the Second Star League coming. Sure there were minor signs of strife but nothing that could not be dealt with. I mean after all, it wasn’t like the Clan Threat was gone (as proven during serval events that happened just before the end of the Second Star League and afterwards). Bringing an end to the Second Star League was done so only to open the door to more conflict within the Inner Sphere.
But the death of the Second Star League had to happen to ensure that the following events were allowed to occur. Are the events that you presented possible? Yes, but unlikely. Throughout Inner Sphere History, there had been rare times when units and entire regions of space acted on their own thus drawing the entire Power in to a war with another power. So you do have some historical support to this fact. However since the 4th Succession War, these rogue powers had been brought in to greater control. This played out perfectly during the Duchy of Andurien Crisis within the FWL.
Can events like this happen, yes they could happen. But on this scale? So soon? This is what I find hard to believe. It was like you guys went from a universe filled with great hope and promise for tomorrow to a universe once more filled with war and destruction. And what happened to cause these events, a series of “prefect storms” engineered by the authors to explain it. For me, and only my opinion, it’s too much too soon.
If you guys wanted to turn the universe back to war and created the Dark Ages, then do so. But give the Universe some time to breathe and recover before throwing it to the wolves again. Why couldn’t the Second Star Leagues have ushered in a new era of peace? A second golden age of peace for humanity. Yes I am sure there could have been a few sparks of conflict here and there for the Star League to deal with. But these sparks could have slowly caused the core to erode. Those large units and factions you wanted to do away with could have just passed with time. This could have given life to a story arc that was much richer than the one that currently exists.
In giving the universe this era of peace and a new golden age new heroes could have risen up. Where the old factions would have broken apart which was the universal trend (We saw this in the St Ives Compact, FRR, Nova Cats and Ghost Bears and even across the Chaos March), new factions could have risen from their ashes. Some heroic units might have survived but even this is doubtful after a century of growth. New technology, new units, new heroes could have risen in a universe where the possibilities were endless.
Instead you pressed forward with the worse of humanity and taking away all that had been built up for during nearly two decades of novels. Truthfully, in reading the books covering the great refusal war I really wanted to see Victor become the next First Lord of the Star League. He had the support and love of the people across the Inner Sphere and respect from even his enemies within the Clans. Though becoming Precentor Martial was a great move, it was only a step along the way to becoming First Lord. As I read what the Authors created in the Jihad and Dark Ages, I am left feeling like Victor got cheated. I often consider what an Inner Sphere would look like under his leadership.
Look, while the authors’ works are done well. It is clear to me that they all (including you) have a creative mind. But these actions have turned some longtime fans like me against the canon universe now. I hope you understand what I am saying. Even if you can’t agree with me, I hope you understand my points.
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ghostrider
09/24/15 12:52 AM
98.150.102.177
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Am I missing something, or does it sound weird that the great houses would not be preparing for someone building up arms even if their is such a thing as the star league in effect?
That would be saying the the united nations is in effect so we are not worried that Iran is looking ot make nukes, or that north Korea has them. Since the UN is here, there will be no issue with them using it. In the successor states, I would think any idea of that would never be trusted given the history of the IS, especially Comstar.
But maybe that is just me.
Using the UN example. that would mean that the US and Russia issues don't exist because that are both part of the UN, as well as China and a lot of the Asian countries having sea border conflicts with it.
I don't care weither they were told or not, it would be unbelievable for them not to continue worrying about other nations and what they are doing. Lioa's use of star league forces in the St. Ives Compact should be more then enough to show it was not reliable. Even with the use of the nerve gas, it didn't do much besides hamper the defenders. Yes, Sun Tzu was in charge at the time, but that should have definitely shown it was not going to work.
Now you said WoB hit the fed com capitals in 3067, but didn't get into the jihad until 3070. Who was running the jihad during that time?
Maybe I am missing something here as well.
As for reading the secrets, not everyone has the updated books, so some of that is unlikely to be done. And I forgot they changed history to allow the new facts to play to the current story.
I will have to read the older books for the information. I may be getting some novels mixed up with the canon books. The developers really need to get the writers to stick with the canon story line.
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ghostrider
09/24/15 01:18 AM
98.150.102.177
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Ok On page 114 of the House Marik book printed in 1988 right column third paragraph has the information about the ppc factory. I was wrong, it is not a secret factory, but one that was shut down, and they suspect the Andruriens had been using it to stockpile ppcs in secret. They say ROM and SAFE agents reported the Andurien troops had a large number of new ppcs during their maneuvers on Xanthe III.
I am thinking I misread that to be a secret facility as no one knew it was running. They probably removed that in the latest version of Marik history.
And a stupid thing popped into my mind about WOB and the WMD. Did they build new ones?
It sounds like Comstar didn't stockpile any, but that might be just a mis thought on my part.
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Akirapryde2006
09/24/15 08:30 PM
71.100.132.249
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Quote:
Cray writes:
ComStar, meanwhile, saw the bombardment of Outreach and attacks on Tharkad and New Avalon, and decided it was time to reclaim Terra. It had planned for this, Case White. If all that had mattered was Terra's military defenses and still-pathetic SDS, ComStar would've won a messy victory. Instead, several of its critical WarShips had pro-Blakist mutinies or suffered sabotage. Vital troop ships were blown up by those traitors and the few revived SDS ships WoB had mustered. ComGuards on the ground found not all Terrans welcomed them as liberators, but ratted them out. So, Case White failed just short of victory.
Okay I have to ask this question because no one else is asking it. Which is canon in regards to the demise of Comstar’s Case White under the command of Victor Steiner-Davion?
That Case White was stopped by the SDS of Terra. A system that Comstar, in the face of the Clan Threat and hundreds of years of wars and combat around them, never deemed important to rebuild or repair (Despite the fact that FASA’s Comstar Sourcebook disputes this claim). So the planners of this operation never thought that WoB would have used this system against them. That they didn’t even bother to plan for this system’s presences within the Terran System. That Comstar’s ROM didn’t have spies within Terra warning them of the defenses of Terra. I mean after all FASA’ Campaign Sourcebook the Fall of Terra, stated that Comstar had supporters on Terra after WoB took over the Earth.
Or
That Case White was stopped by, as you stated, “pro-Blakist mutinies or suffered sabotage.” The very same kind of pro-Blakist actions that cost them Terra. So you mean to tell me that Comstar didn’t purge Pro-Blakist from their ranks after the fall of Terra. This is a leap of faith that I can’t accept. That Victor, who was a brilliant military leader and a study of History didn’t see the threat of Pro-Blakist threat within his own ranks. I am after all, it was this very threat that cost Comstar Terra.
So which one of these is canon? Because none of them makes any military sense.
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ghostrider
09/24/15 10:08 PM
98.150.102.177
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There are a few questions that run with those ones Akira. With having help on Terra, how is it they not only failed to warn the incoming ships about the system, there was nothing done to shut down or sabotage the sds from those very supporters?
OR turn the system against WoB forces themselves?
Another part of me wonders how the Dragoons could use the Seventh Kommados to strike at the MAC in retaliations for what they did the Dragoon, but the there is no rebuilt Kommandos to infiltrate the Comstar facilities on Mars to pave the way for the rest to land.
If they had, the entire process of the Dragons demise would not have happened. Since
A) The Kommandos would have encountered the system and have left something to show it was there,
OR
B) Warned them as they got in system about it.
It isn't like they didn't know how to get into an hpg and use it, nor where the facilities to control it were. That would be a priority target once it was learned it was in uses. Power would be a key to any defensive systems including scanners such as Radar.
The lack of anything like this is completely against the way Jamie Wolf worked.
One a side note, we are not suggesting Crays work in the game is at fault. We do appreciate that they still have the game going, but we do like to understand the background and why things were done they way they were. It seems we said so is the key and they needed the innersphere to be in the stone ages to keep the war going. Some fact of life seemed to have been overlooked in this.
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Karagin
09/24/15 11:53 PM
72.176.176.175
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So ComStar blindly jumps into the Sol System all because they want to stop the Word and forgets ALL military thinking and planning etc...yeah sorry but that Cray is insane even for the BT universe.
Then it just happens, one would think ComStar would have rooted out or at least marginalized questionable folks by this point given, that Blake agents just once again, get the upper hand, and can mutiny etc...and all of this is a surprise to ComStar? I guess when the authors want to clean house and remove the warships and other large ticket items from the playing field this is how it's done. I mean at every turn WoB knew what the ComStar forces had planned, one would have thought that earlier efforts would have shown that things weren't quite right, guess this would be the case of the WoB having the Enigma deal over ComStar to draw the analogy.
And Victor goes from the decent battlefield commander with a decent staff, to this blundering idiot who blindly attacks a fortified system that they have no hard intel on and have already seen that the Word doesn't care about mass destruction as weapon of use and choice, yeah okay and you wonder why many of still question the whole Jihad storyline.
The Dragoon attack on Mars goes against everything the Dragoons would do, even when they razed New Delos they did so with intel and a plan, not this let's just go kill Blakist cause they killed Jamie. That kind of thing is 100% against the grain of the Dragoons how they worked, unless folks should have picked a better faction like the Jaguar fans were told once.
We all do apperciate Cray's work, just not understanding his fanatical support of the Jihad and all that goes to it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/25/15 12:22 AM
98.150.102.177
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Karagins suggestion of taking out the warships of the innersphere does give me another loop hole in the jihad.
Why didn't WOB destroy the ship yards in all the successor states except those freindly to them?
I mean forcing everyone to rely on them for ships would be the ultimate answer to they running the innersphere. With their use of nukes, that would stop any sort of organized resistance to them, and with the state of mind they were in, would support the idea.
Bombing Tharkad and New Avalon would support that type of thinking. Remove warships, and even jump ships means NO one will be able to stop you in a few years.
Or is that the next set of attacks to reduce the innersphere to using stone axes?
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Akirapryde2006
09/26/15 09:51 PM
71.100.132.249
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I know the line of questions and comments made have been harsh on Cary. But don't the authors of the Jihad era owe answers to those who support and buy their product.
I mean after all, we are the customers who buy the source books and novels. The success or failure of this game rests within the hands of the fans.
Cary, all I want to know is how these plot holes are explained. I don't mean to disrespect you or your work. Please do not take these questions or comments this way.
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ghostrider
09/27/15 03:16 AM
98.150.102.177
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Cray has been nice enough to be here to explain what some of the people doing the story.
Now I take it, they are not overly concerned with the story line so much as just getting people to play the game. For some that is all they care about. How to make units and fight with them. Others get more into the history and backgrounds.
I know I said it before, but they need conflict to keep the game from stagnating. The biggest issue I can see is the main houses are too entrenched. It limits some options. It may be they should splinter the entire houses as a means to promote the total warfare idea, minus the nukes.
If I recall, there was supposed to be 10 states that formed just as the star league fell. Maybe they should promote that idea. Yes, some of the states would be screwed. But why would the ruler of Defiance allow Tharkad to order their forces around? I know Skye has tried to rebel, but what if Hesperus rebelled against everyone? All the house have major issues that could be exploited as people just get tired of the main houses screwing up?
I do agree that the people with the story line, should try to explain what is up, but not sure how much they really care. Oil companies come to mind with this. They claim they don't gouge the customers, but they big ones make from 4 to 14 billion dollars every quarter. Not per year, but per 3 months. They can't survive without subsidies from the government, yet profits are above and beyond all costs. A little off subject, but an example.
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Cray
09/27/15 08:28 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Now you said WoB hit the fed com capitals in 3067, but didn't get into the jihad until 3070. Who was running the jihad during that time? Maybe I am missing something here as well.
Earlier in this discussion, I gave you an itemized, numbered list of the wars happening during the early Jihad. Please refer to that to see what conflicts kept the Houses deeply occupied for years at a time. I also described WoB's activities during the early Jihad in that post. It wasn't absent, but it certainly wasn't trying to conquer the universe. WoB was a minor player until about 3070. See my earlier comparison to a bar fight.
After the Jihad ended, WoB got vilified for the entirety of the Jihad, much in the way Germany got vilified for World War One. World War One and the Jihad were much more complex events than, "Wob / Germany tries to conquer everyone." However, that's how events got spun by MWDA, and it's the version picked up by the internet.
Quote:
That would be saying the the united nations is in effect so we are not worried that Iran is looking ot make nukes, or that north Korea has them.
No, in 3067, WoB was not North Korea in the eyes of the Houses. It was not Iran. It was a splinter group from ComStar and operating a legitimate financial and communications business. It made sane noises about its operations in the Chaos March - it was a peacekeeper and, for the most part, it was relying on Terrans to make peace there rather than forcing everyone to worship toasters.
In 3067, if you a House intelligence agency had captured every single WoBblie and hooked them up to a brain scanner to find out about the Jihad, that House agency would've learned what they already knew by other means: there was no plan to fight the Inner Sphere. There was no war planned to bring the Houses to their knees. WoB was going to do three Houses, if not all five Houses, a favor by trying to destroy the Clans.
The Houses considered that, nodded, and let WoB do its thing.
Before 3067, WoB wasn't North Korea. It wasn't Iran. It was a kooky splinter of ComStar that presented the Inner Sphere no threat in the opinion of the Houses, and - here's the writer insider secret (which is actually published in Jihad Secrets) - it had no plans for the Jihad as the Jihad manifested.
And that's why WoB is such a fumbling cluster **** in the early years of the Jihad: it didn't plan for the Jihad. It planned for a war with the Clans. It doesn't conquer much, it gets kicked off New Avalon twice with little effort, it only raids Tharkad once, it wasn't ready or planning a war with the Inner Sphere. It was a minor player among a half dozen border conflicts much larger than WoB's actions.
If you think WoB suddenly sprang 200 regiments on the Inner Sphere in 3067 and tried to conquer and destroy everything, then you're not actually referring to the published, canonical Jihad. It didn't happen that way. See Dawn of the Jihad, Jihad Hotspots 3070, JHS:3072, and Jihad Secrets.
Quote:
Am I missing something, or does it sound weird that the great houses would not be preparing for someone building up arms even if their is such a thing as the star league in effect?
Do you shoot your neighbor just because he bought a gun? The police get grumpy if you randomly shoot people for owning guns.
As I've said several times in this thread, the Houses took a good look at WoB's military AND its motivations. House intelligence agencies saw the WoB military build up and wondered what WoB was up to. They talked to WoB defectors, they monitored WoB signals, and they infiltrated spies into WoB.
The conclusion was, "WoB is planning a fight with ComStar and the Clans."
Speaking out of character, from a writer's perspective, that's what WoB was planning in 3067: maybe a little follow on rumble with ComStar (or not, WoB was in a good mood in 3067), and they were definitely spoiling for a fight with the Clans.
Since this was not a problem for the Houses, they didn't act on. In fact, three Houses - Steiner, Kurita, and Davion - would've been happy to see WoB and the Clans go at it.
Please refer to my prior posts to see why everyone looked so surprised when the Jihad happened. You can also refer to Jihad Secrets, p. 11-14. Basically, WoB didn't know it was going to happen like it did. No one saw the new Star League being voted out of existence.
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I will have to read the older books for the information. I may be getting some novels mixed up with the canon books. The developers really need to get the writers to stick with the canon story line.
Just because you're hearing new information here doesn't mean the storyline didn't changed. And the writers had little to do with the plot.
The Jihad didn't change, not from the time WizKids, FanPro, and CGL started writing it in the mid-2000s. The entire "Jihad Hotspots" series and all BattleCorps fiction about the Jihad (as written by FanPro and CGL) used a single, consistent internal timeline that was written before the first book was published. Any JHS book or fiction published about the Jihad was reviewed by over a dozen continuity reviewers who were working from the master timeline, and those reviewers included the developers.
What's changed is that the detailed events of the Jihad are now available and disputing what people have been sharing on the internet for some time. What's interesting is that people who dislike the Internet's version of the Jihad are now staunchly defending that incorrect version when, really, it didn't happen like they're saying.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
09/27/15 11:59 PM
72.176.176.175
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So really Cray what you are telling us that this was all about getting rid of uber units aka the Dragoons, and removing the weapons race that was slowing the game down...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/28/15 02:32 AM
98.150.102.177
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Where does it state the WOB was after the clans?
And who besides them were involved in the Jihad?
And no, you don't shoot the neighbor that buys a gun, but you sure the hell set up incase they decide to use it. And that is IF you KNOW the person. If you don't then you really get ready incase they go off the deep end.
I can understand some people having read things on the internet. I am asking questions since the logic behind a lot of it seems flawed and pointed towards things like removing royalty names and units.
Things like they weren't planning to attack the great house, but they hit the 2 that were part of the fedcom. That alone sounds wrong and backwards. Hitting them would definitely caused a response. But then that was the era I stopped buying the stuff. The fedcom civil war was the last novels I read until the dark ages.
And hitting New Avalon twice?
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Karagin
09/28/15 06:21 AM
72.176.176.175
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Ghostrider, I asked a lot of the same questions, the answers I got was they had Terra and the hidden worlds and that solved almost all of their issues and if that didn't, then they had the money from the FWL and what they stole from other companies. Seems that if those stock answers don't stop you from questioning things then, at least back in the day, you were labeled a troublemaker and several of the buddies and friends of TPTB would attack you till either you quit Sarna or you quit the game all together, plenty of the old flame wars threads to see what went on, and while you are right there are holes in the logic of the WoBs attacks, the one thing that is very clear is a lot of the Jihad storyline seems to be patched together as if it's two different plot lines, but that could just be me and what I see.
The FedSuns was the Golden Child of the BT universe, so blasting that one in to ruin always seems to be the best thing for the bad guys in the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Akirapryde2006
09/28/15 08:46 AM
71.100.132.249
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
the one thing that is very clear is a lot of the Jihad storyline seems to be patched together as if it's two different plot lines, but that could just be me and what I see.
That does make more sense. Its like two people writing the plot lines and not really communicating how they are reaching the over all story ending. As I read through the plots, it really saddened me to see how the Fed Com was ripped apart and then torn to shreds. I knew that a Civil War was always in the making. In fact when you look back in to the books covering the Clan invasion, you can see this slowly building. During the Second Star League and the Refusal War the dye was cast. But the entire time, I don't think the original authors at the time ever wanted to see the FedCom torn a part the way it was at the end of the FedCom Civil war.
Quote:
Karagin writes:
The FedSuns was the Golden Child of the BT universe, so blasting that one in to ruin always seems to be the best thing for the bad guys in the game.
The FedSuns were the Golden Child based on their ethnic background. When you look back at the original house books and the history, the Houses were more set up like modern nations we have today. Two House from Europe, two houses from Asia and the FWL was the Americas. I never really agreed that this would be how humanity would travel to the stars but it did seem to work and more importantly, flow.
As for hidden planets. I find this the most unbelievable bit of rubbish. Okay where are said planets? Oh yes, they are hidden planets so no one has to point at a map and say "here they are." But if these worlds were within two jumps of Terra, these habitable worlds would have been settled by the Terran Alliance during its raise to power and colonization period. During this period (as found in the Star League Source Book Page 8) sum "100 Human-Colonized Worlds spread across a sphere of 80 light years in diameter." After other Grand Surveys, this number would continue to grow. It is my belief that after what a hundred years of active, explosive colonization efforts that ever habitable world near Terra was colonized.
Is it possible after the fall of the First Star League and the Terran Hegemony that a world slipped through the cracks. Sure, it is possible. But during the succession wars, Comstar worked very hard to find these worlds. If they found one and decided to keep it secret (which is possible noting Comstar's love for secrets), then you have your hidden world. This world would have to be in the Periphery and not within the core of the Inner Sphere. There would simply be to many chances of the world being discovered by the hundreds of military units attempting to pass through the area after over three centuries of warfare. These units attempting to move in secret would have searched heavily for healthy stars to recharge at while staying clear of populated worlds. This would have limited their chances of detection while on raiding missions.
But here is the problem with a hidden WoB world and how it turns to rubbish.
Anything WoB knows, Comstar would also know. After all they had access to all the same information up to the mid 3050's. During this time, there are a number of references of Comstar making clear attempts to watch WoB closely (as cited in the Comstar Source Book, and is the reason why I found the Fall of Terra so hard to accept. But that is a leap of faith I was willing to take). If WoB attempted to use a "hidden world" to build up its military, especially after the fall of Terra Comstar would have noticed. The Authors of the Jihad Era would like us to forget that Comstar still had ROM. Sure they took a beating in the fall of Terra. But that was their Headquarters. As seen during the novels of the era of the Great Refusal War, ROM played a key role in many Inner Sphere operations.
But okay, lets take this leap of faith that ROM was otherwise preoccupied to pay attention to their own rivals. No other House Intelligence group noticed? Oh wait, they did notice. Just didn't think that this was important. Wait? building up a secret force would not be a sign of trouble after WoB used Nukes on Gibson (which Marik knew about and so did the FedComs). After their military take over of Terra and their growing influence across the Chaos March. I am sure that the warning from the Wolf's Dragoons fell upon deaf ears as well (citing how the Dragoons banded a group of merc commands to oppose the Dragoons in the Chaos March). But then there was the WMD attacks on Outreach and still no one thought that this radical group was a threat just yet.
Can someone please tell me how the House Lords would have not considered this a growing threat. Can anyone please explain to me how they would not have seen this as a reason to band together (like they did with the Clans) and smash the WoB before they attacked the Fed Com Capitals.
I mean just look at the time lines of this era. October 15th, (according to the Jihad Hot Spots: 3070, pp. 11-13, "Jihad Timeline" and Blake Ascending, pp. 171-173, "Jihad Timeline" Cited this website), WoB launched an attack on Outreach using Merc Units (BTW I am not even going to waste my breath on explaining how the Wolf's Dragoons had built up the SDS of Outreach using Clan tech which was cited in more than one FASA Source book/Novel).
But we are expected to ignore the fact that WoB was behind this attack or consider it not a major threat because there was so much else going on (remember that artificially created prefect storm). Then for reason beyond my own understanding of why, the Major House Lords decide to withdraw from the Second Star League over a month later. Despite this growing threat in the heart of the Inner Sphere or the artificially created prefect storm that is growing around them. It just doesn't make sense!
Akira
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ghostrider
09/28/15 12:02 PM
98.150.102.177
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I can see hidden worlds not being habitable in the normal sense. Everything under ground or in domes. The fact none of the houses found any of them as they searched for more resource would be an issue to believe.
I find Comstar having issues finding most of them a far stretch. They had the comms system, and alot of data from star league. Which is crap, since they would have had access to a lot of the locations for caches as well. I believe they grabbed some, but that was novel information.
I agree that it is rather hard to swallow that the houses did not believe the threat with all the attacks and BANNED weapons use WOB used even before the main strike.
But that also brings up another point from another thread. Why build clan weapons if they were so expensive to build in the innersphere? Were the Dragoons that rich as to be able to afford the costs of making them? (cough, items not being made in IS, cough).
And now. What it to prevent the worlds from building the SDS systems? I would think New Avalon would be one of the first as they have been attack twice by WOB. And I doubt that story line is done. I would expect them to come back soon.
There is one point I will make about an sds on outreach and why it may not have worked. I don't know if the invaders had come into the system after they were known attackers, or if they just started the strike from the ground. It was the merc capital at the time, so it is possible the invaders were grounded already. Still. You would think they would have had a great defense set up for such an attack.
This does circle back to their attack on mars. If they had one up, why would they think the HQ system of WOB/Comstar would not have theirs working? That is like saying the UN forgot nations outside of that organization, have nukes, nerve gas, and commit atrocities semi regularly.
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Akirapryde2006
09/29/15 12:07 PM
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You know, there is another possible reason why a faction would have been fooled by the WoB. However the fact that the Authors didn't consider this in their arguments makes this highly unlikely. Also, it would only work on one faction.
Dusan Popov was a heroic spy during the second world war. The man should be (if wasn't) the real world model of James Bond (Yeah 007). This man tricked the Nazis in to funding most of the British Counter Intelligence. (Supposedly) Warned the US of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor months before the attack occurred. And played a key role in the success of Operation Overlord.
Could the WoB had such a spy working for them. Yes, this is very possible and could have explained a lot of the success of the WoB throughout the Jihad. However the level of cunning that comes from a man like Mr. Popov is that of a free thinking clever individual. The kind of thinking and spirit that is normally discouraged by organizations such as the WoB. Even if they had a few spies like this, it is highly unlikely that they had all the Inner Sphere powers fooled and tricked.
Prior to the Jihad, the Inner Sphere powers were still talking to themselves. At least most of them. Something like this would not have added up and would have triggered flags.
I wonder if the authors were looking for in the Jihad Era books was something in terms of the 9-11 attacks to turn the readers completely away from the WoB. If this was the original goal, then less military style attacks and more small scale high causalities style attacks would have been more appropriate. This would have been more believable and would have given the authors the kind of war that they wanted.
As some of the major powers were fighting across the Chaos March in Vietnam/Afgan style bloody conflicts this would have left openings for other powers to make attacks of opportunities against rivals. Would you have seen the level of military conflicts, in my opinion, yes. Allow me to explain.
During the insurgent style conflicts, the enemy (WoB) would not have to deploy many forces to tie down a larger number of Allied forces (Federated Suns, Lyran Commonwealth and Comstar). As the Allied causalities start to mount popular support of the war could slip (as seen during the Vietnam conflict).
WoB would not need a massive military built on hidden worlds. They could summon up their faithful on worlds across the Chaos March. A lone gunman with a machine gun could tie down a platoon for hours making a patrol take painfully long. This gunman wouldn't have to oppose the Allies from moving in to an area. Instead he could strike out after the main force moved on, forcing the holding unit to draw in more resources as seen during the all major conflicts across human history.
Could the Jihad have worked? yes I think it could have. But not how the authors created it. Which brings me to another issue. Case White, and the Comstar fleet. It took me some time to address this cause I wasn't completely sure. But I searched through my books regarding the the battle of Tukayyid. No where does it support the level of warships that the authors of the Jihad used during operation Case White.
Now I am sure some might suggest that these ships were hidden in the Explorer Corps. In fact, in the Comstar Source Book (Page 45) the role of the Explorer Corps was mission was Diplomacy rather than Conquest. To this end, "Dropships were only lightly armed, as were the crews." So there is little chance that such a large fleet existed in the Explorer Corps. I could find no reference to this massive fleet in any of the Clan Invasion/Refusal War Source materials/novels.
Lets go back to the Comstar Source Book (Page 46) and the Tripitz Affair. Comstar didn't send a warship to destroy the Tripitz. Instead they sent a jumpship and fighters. It states that the Taurians learned on an "Unknown Jumpship" not strange or large. They knew enough that the ship was a Jumpship and not a warship which they had first hand contact with the Tripitz (a Black Lion Battle-cruiser). This was one of the first recorded operations of the ComGuards. Which reflects in 2987, the ComGuards were still in their forming stages. While Comstar had the means, they had not fully developed their offensive military might.
During this period, the flagship of Comstar Pride of Blake was a Jumpship not a warship (Cited Source Comstar Source Book, Page 47).
In the novels governing the Refusal War, Comstar added four warships to Task Force Serpent. In such a critical mission and with so many more resources available to them why not add more ships to the mission? During the battle of Terra (between Comstar and WoB in 3058) A Dante Class warship, the Narbonne arrived to defend the Titan Shipyards. It was heavily damaged. This gave hint of another battle within a jump from Terra. Okay so there was a secret fleet somewhere. So far according to the novels this is supported.
In the Field Manual: Free Worlds League, p. 116, WoBS Blake's Redemption and Deliverance raided both Ross 248 AND Luyten 68-28 anchorages. Both were Comstar anchorages and home to two separate Comstar Fleets. TWO WoB ships conducting two raids on two facilities against a total of eleven warships at Ross 248 (not counting supporting defending fighters/dropships) and twelve warships at Luyten 68-28 (not counting supporting defending fighters/dropships). (Note: I don't have either book so I am only citing this site sources Ross-248 and Luyten 68-28 )
Seriously? Two WoB warships carried out these raids? With such wonder warships no wonder why WoB was so successfully. Might as well the all the other players in the Inner Sphere and Clan space to pack it in and go home. There is no stopping the WoB now!
I do believe that Comstar had a handful of a warships. But the size of fleet that is suggested in Case White is insane. The fact that such a large fleet didn't take a larger role in the defense of Terra or during the Refusal War only proves that this fleet in Case White is nothing more than a fabrication of the Authors for the sake of grand storytelling.
Akira
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ghostrider
09/29/15 12:34 PM
98.150.102.177
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Yes, misdirection would definitely be used. The one person that was providing information to the IS forces attacking WOB was thought as one of those spys when they took heavy damage to a few attacking task forces.
What I find as bs in this, is the houses would not have stopped operations against WOB even if they became allies. History has too many instances of Allies turning on each other. Without major history behind them, WOB was just another player in the game.
Now I know there were references to Comstar having a fleet of warships in the earlier books, and had the units for their comguard units. As for deploying them, I suggested in another thread, training them to use the non standard formations would have slowed down their deployments.
Now I can see not showing your hand by deploying your hidden forces for all to see.
And since they did have the Titan shipyards, it is possible to have built more warships in the years they were in power, or had refurbished the ones in the scrap yards they had, this still does not sound right.
As I said, Sol system and those around it has alot of commercial and even military traffic flowing thru there over the ages. I am sure the houses did searches of the systems looking for resources. A warship is hard to hid in an asteroid or other gravity body. I would need to look it up again, but there is one place in one of the tro's that explained comstars warship fleet. Not a listing but told of a few things.
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Akirapryde2006
09/29/15 01:20 PM
71.100.132.249
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Now I can see not showing your hand by deploying your hidden forces for all to see.
And since they did have the Titan shipyards, it is possible to have built more warships in the years they were in power, or had refurbished the ones in the scrap yards they had, this still does not sound right.
I don't doubt Comstar had warships. There has been enough references throughout the books to support this. When Anastasius Focht offered up Comstar Warships to Operation Serpent, it was suggested that this was the bulk of Comstar's fleet.
There is one thing about not showing your hand for all to see. But to allow your only major shipyards and Headquarters to fall in to enemy hands to hide your fleet when you can prevent it. Or when the entire Inner Sphere is going to war and only offer a small fraction of your own fleet. No, none of this supports military logic that Focht had demonstrated before.
If Comstar didn't have this massive fleet in 3058, and without Titan Yards, how could it have had this massive fleet that took part in Case White in 3068? This seems like such a massive stretch. I am not sold on this concept.
Is it a grand story. Sure, but I can't support or buy this.
Akira
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ghostrider
09/29/15 08:44 PM
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I agree with that. You would commit all the forces you can to retake your primary place of not only ship building, but repairs as well.
Honestly, using the warships would have removed WOB from the players then and there. But that would have destroyed WOB being the next boogie man.
The novels really need to be read thru to keep them in line with the stories. The great war commanders in the novels did not even THINK of using the warships. It was suggested that only a ground battle would be the way, as Focht was explaining why the pirmas was ordering him to assault terra with everything and he refused her. At that point, it sounds like the prime martial would have been replaced and the new one sent to take out WOB.
I am beginning to think Focht was a WOB sympathizer.
To my knowledge, in any conflict, you secure your home before running off to make war else where. The fact they did not hit terra with everything they could get tells me someone dropped the ball, or really didn't understand the significance of losing the home system. That alone would have dropped comstars stock with the rest of the innersphere and the clans.
Which needs to ask, why would the clans deal with an organization that can not protect it's home base from what most would be considered bandits at that time?
That also throws off clan honor and disgust for the weak. So the whole truce would not have happened.
But maybe that is just me.
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Karagin
09/30/15 06:21 AM
72.176.176.175
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What novels? The last official novel that support the time line was Endgame and then we had the Mechwarrior novels that were one off shoots of things.
Then the only fiction we had/have is the stuff put out by the pay to read BATTLECORPS fiction and most of that is written by other authors, not the top ones that we had all become accustom to quoting as factual as far as canon goes, but now every story in the Battlecorps library is canon, yet it's mish mash of things and nothing really has an ending, based off the anthologies they keep release and short stories.
Maybe the upcoming novels, let's hope we see them, might give us something since one deals with Case White. Then again the current stories about Case White have things so favored heavily to the WoB and makes ComStar look like a rookie merc unit.
Things was they could have done more to hurt the WoB by getting the other Houses to boycott Terra and any thing coming from it, plus the FWL tolerated the WoB, the "not" Marik didn't kowtow to them as much as they thought. Focht didn't want to destroy Terra to retake it but given how fast the WoB was willing to use all means to take it...yeah. And the idea that Terrans where just over joyed to have the Robes back in full force...plus the amount of desertions happening to the ComGuard, one has to wonder what kind of command structure they had as well as discipline with in the ranks.
This falls back on the idea that in a few years of the breaking up of ComStar into the two factions, WoB is able to pull it's self together and attack Terra with relative ease and that alone doesn't send folks like Davion-Steiner and Kurita in an up roar, yeah that part never has made any sense.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
09/30/15 06:12 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
So really Cray what you are telling us that this was all about getting rid of uber units aka the Dragoons, and removing the weapons race that was slowing the game down...
Nope. The Dragoons survived into MWDA. Any unit destroyed in the Jihad was just for the plot line; there was no particular goal about eliminating big or uber units in the Jihad.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
09/30/15 07:08 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
And hitting New Avalon twice?
Well, we've been discussing the Jihad a while now, Ghostrider, so I figure you've learned enough to answer these two questions. I'd really like to see you - Ghostrider, not others - answer these to see if I've been helping explain the early bits of the Jihad.
1) What was the strength of the Federated Suns' and Lyran Alliance's militaries in late 3067, just after the FedCom Civil War ended?
2) What are the identities of the five nations with whom the FedCom's halves started fighting in 3067 to 3070?
Hint: the answers to both questions are in this thread, and it's okay to copy-and-paste.
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But then that was the era I stopped buying the stuff. The fedcom civil war was the last novels I read until the dark ages.
Then you know what shape the Federated Suns and Lyran Alliance were in when they got in a total of five wars (not counting WoB's raids) in 3067-3070.
Actually, if you read those FedCom Civil War books, then you were also aware that the Federated Suns used multiple nukes in the 3060s before WoB.
Quote:
Where does it state the WOB was after the clans?
Again, Jihad Secrets pp. 11-14 provides a complete, in-character overview of the Jihad, including WoB's motivations to attack the Clans. Separately, Dawn of the Jihad, JHS:3070, 3072, Terra, and Final Reckoning all give assorted glimpses into WoB's original motivations. If you want a one-stop reference, go for Jihad Secrets.
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And who besides them were involved in the Jihad?
I gave a list of major conflicts during the Jihad and their participants. It's earlier in this thread in response to Akirapryde.
Quote:
I can understand some people having read things on the internet. I am asking questions since the logic behind a lot of it seems flawed and pointed towards things like removing royalty names and units.
Actually, a lot of the logical flaws you bring up are contradicted by the books - i.e., the flaws you're questioning don't even exist. For example, you put some effort into expressing disbelief that no one knew WoB's plans, that there wasn't even one defector, however that was based on an incorrect premise: people did know about WoB's plans for ComStar and the Clans.
In the case below, you're treating a minor raider - WoB - like it should get the same attention as Houses, Clans, and Periphery powers that were attacking dozens of Suns and Lyran worlds. Like I've said in previous posts, WoB didn't make itself standout until most (not all) other combatants were exhausted.
Quote:
Things like they weren't planning to attack the great house, but they hit the 2 that were part of the fedcom. That alone sounds wrong and backwards. Hitting them would definitely caused a response.
I addressed this several times previously in this thread. Yes, WoB's brief tantrum in 3067 over the collapse of the Star League prompted a response, and I included two of those responses (border wars) in the list of conflicts early in the Jihad. I pointed out that two of those border wars were triggered by the Lyran Federation of Skye and Davion Capellan March attacking suspected WoB collaborators.
Please, just look at the scale of those border wars. Dozens of planets were changing hands with other enemies after WoB blew up a few government buildings, was defeated because the attacks were unplanned, and then ran away. Priority: not WoB.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (09/30/15 07:12 PM)
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Karagin
10/01/15 07:55 AM
72.176.176.175
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Look at the scale of how hard many of us find it for a splinter group to go from pain in the neck to major player on the same level as St Ives Compact in less time and with really no major support, but yet you Cray counter this with the same answers, they have Terra, they have support from the FWL they have the hidden worlds, all of which are great, but do not answer or explain away HOW they did all of this and the next answer to this is the IS Intel Agencies were to busy dealing with other things is very bad writing falling into the same idea that your aliens need to be super scary to work aka the Hollywood approach for the bad guys.
No group can keep a secret, and for you and Randal and the rest to keep claiming the WoB was able to do this and what little leaked out was ignored I feel is a bit insulting to the players and fans of this game. Catch here Cray is folks are still questioning the who WoB and Jihad storyline, folks did not buy into it, so maybe that should tell you something, or you can keep dismissing those of us who disagree with the storyline or feel there are issues and keep repeating your prepped answers. Or maybe you could possible look at things from our Point of View and then give us an actual answer vs the company line.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/01/15 01:00 PM
98.150.102.177
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So from what I am feeling about the responses, it seems WOB would hate all the houses except Marik, with a definite enemy of Davion and Steiner.
This looks more like the developers wanted to destroy the super state they created with the merger, then civil war of, the fedcom.
Then when they didn't go far enough, they came up with the jihad. The fact that the houses have had issues with comstar/wob before, and did nothing to get away from their influence, sounds like they were stupid in all forms.
Focht not removing them from the universe with the warships and troops he had available because he was focused on the clans, was a stretch, but believable.
The attacks WOB did because they were upset, yet I didn't see anything about WOB trying to pay them back for those attacks, which would very well have happened, nor banning them from their territories didn't as well.
Please, just look at the scale of those border wars. Dozens of planets were changing hands with other enemies after WoB blew up a few government buildings, was defeated because the attacks were unplanned, and then ran away. Priority: not WoB.
For being a minor player in the whole Jihad, if they had not done those attacks, the entire jihad would never have happened. I understand there would not have been the major uprising with all houses because of it, since Liao definitely benefitted from it, but trying to deflect the blame from them.
It sounds like you are trying to say stefan amaris was a minor player in the fall of the original star league with that example. They did not do more then distract the attention of the IS away from the house lords getting ready to carve up the IS and the fight weakened the Star League forces.
The fact the other periphery states were involved in trying to leave the league was over looked because of the autracities amaris forces did on the Hemegony worlds.
And honestly, if Comstar had that many people that were unhappy with them, why didn't WOB break away before they did? Egos would have caused them to splinter so much more then 2 major groups with a few subfactions in each. And interestingly enough, I know they had issues with the sub groups in the novels, yet some how, none of those groups tried to make a play for power during the jihad or even before?
And with Kali Liao getting away with the nerve gas attacks, I do not see why they didn't try this sooner. The take over of the chaos march worlds was a systematic and PLANNED campaign.
With this, I find a lack of planning from taking border worlds and pulling back because they were not able to support them kind of dumb. All houses should have contingency plans incase their raids actually finds a weak spot already planned out from the 3rd succession war. Simple updates should have removed that 'not ready' garbage excuse.
Good example is Marik during the fourth war. Dust off the computer files and use the plans that were already there.
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Karagin
10/01/15 02:22 PM
72.176.176.175
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Amaris planned his stuff out over years, and he had allies that wanted to fight the Star League, where as his issue was personal since the Cameron's slighted on of his ancestors etc...it wasn't an overnight kind of thing for Amaris to worm his way into the Terran Hegemony and take it over, that took time and he didn't last long once there either. He had the fore sight of the slight ancestor who began the build up as well as his playing other Periphery powers and splinter groups in to his game, one that he controlled and ran with, kind of like Palpatine and his running the CIS and the Republic during the Clone Wars.
I am sure we could have had Fifth Succession War come about with the crazy amounts of nationalistic pride coming about in the different Houses, the spark could have been either the FedCom Civil War or the failed wedding of Sun-Tzu to Issis.
Agreed with you on the whole unhappy ComStar part and the whole Schism happening sooner. Hidden armies, shadow leaders, etc...all make for B rated sci-fi. Also it was CLEARLY stated at the end of LOST DESTINY that the break off group would still need spare parts to keep their HPGs up and running thus ComStar would still be able to track them, and somehow we go from this to UBER group in a few short years.
Thing is for the House Intel groups to just go with first look and point fingers, really is a major change from how they were being shown prior to the whole here is the future ala the Dark Age storyline from WizKids. Now I am not saying that there would not have been a massive war, plenty of things can and would cause that for the BT universe, but to have it happen in a manner that doesn't quite mesh with the game's universe back story fully, as you said ghostrider if ComStar was having issues internally then they would have had the break no matter what and add in the Clans showing up, proves that they don't have the sole handle on technology. Also what is stopping the Diamond Sharks from selling HPG tech to the Houses? Why hasn't Kurita or Davion etc...offered them a lot of things upto their first born for this tech? Unless the Clans can't make new ones, yet we see in sourcebooks how they have them on their warships new and old as well bring new ones with them.
You have a group that is small and a pain in the neck, that launches terrorist attacks, so you do what most do you ignore them, then when they do something insane, then you go full bore all out on them, you don't ignore them. The whole tantrum in 3067/3068 should have been WoB money shot and then it would have been game over for them, since they would have wasted their best on nothing and once the surprise went away, then it's over with, the US didn't just go shucks darn after Pearl Harbor, no we hunkered down and came out of the gate swinging, it's was pretty but we came out fighting and didn't let up. Yet we are to believe that the Houses just ignored the new bad guys to worry about border raids and such over the clear and present danger that the WoB presented? Excuse me while I laugh at the silliness there.
I still stick with the idea that some where in the close door meetings TPTB came to conclusion that to them the game was getting out of hand with an arms race of new weapons and that folks would expect new stuff ever few years, so best thing to do is clean house, remove the new toys for awhile, then bring them back under a more controlled setup and hey we have this niffty new toy line with a story line that allows us to do just that. But as I have said before it's dangerous to question this stuff to closely cause it upsets certain folks.
Also, the money, manpower, logistical and control issues have never been honestly answered just hand waved away with the whole Terra and the Sol System is under their control and the FWL money etc...odd how ComStar never got much out of their double Marik but yet WoB is able to milk that cow for 10 or so years and poof instant army and abilities.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Akirapryde2006
10/02/15 08:14 PM
71.100.132.249
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I have to thank everyone for your efforts.
Cray, I stand by what I said. Your work by its self is very note worthy. And I don't mean to take away from you on that regard.
But what has been done to the universe is a leap of faith too far for me. The last book I read was when Victor returned after the Great Refusal War. The stage was set for the FedCom Civil War and Victor's star was on the raise. He was a major Inner Sphere Hero and had the support of the troops that served with him, plus the massive respect of his enemies. Victor was set up to lead the Inner Sphere through the next major crisis (the FedCom Civil War). As a fan, I have been following the novels up to this point. So I know what I am talking about in this regard.
I am expected to believe that Victor would have allowed the use of Nuclear weapons after the destruction he lived through during the Clan Invasion or what he witnessed on Northwind. Northwind turned out to be a major turning point for Victor as a character. But we are expected to just forget about this and accept the idea that Victor would turn on all that he has learned. All that he stood for.
Then we have the Jihad, I have expressed my issues with this. Without the Jihad, the Dark Ages has no solid footing to exist. Yes I contend that all the facts that Cray bring up are possible. But again, this is a prefect example of a intentional engineered prefect storm for the sake of the war itself. You can explain each point away but not one point can survive without the others. Where would the Jihad be if Wolf's Dragoons didn't attack Mars, or if the separate battles didn't happen? Once you remove one thread, the rest unravels. This is the problem I have the Jihad, the separate events can not stand on their own. Thus making the entire major era that much harder to believe.
This being said, I am sorry to say this but my time with this universe is over. Much like what has happened with D&D and other games (where the story/rules has been changed simply to sell more product), I cannot/will not support this game or the company that publishes it.
I will still relish in the books/stories that were published by FASA. But I will not continue to buy more books for a universe that I don't support.
Cray, I would like to thank you for the hard work you have done. I do not hold you personally responsible for my choice. I continue to admire and respect you. I hope that the respect is mutual. It is my desire that we continue to build on this mutual respect.
Everyone else who took part in this discussion, you all also have my respect and admiration. I wish to thank you for the time you put in this discussion.
Akira
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mwam
10/02/15 08:32 PM
23.25.184.166
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Post deleted by Cray
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DavidG
10/02/15 09:34 PM
96.29.193.32
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Akira, I have enjoyed reading your discussions and hope you continue to post on his forum.
David
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ghostrider
10/03/15 12:21 AM
98.150.102.177
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I hope this doesn't mean you are going to stop coming here. I still like D&D and such, even though they changed the rules so much.
As for battletech, I still like it, but won't use the newer rule sets. Some of the equipment is nice and still not outrageously out there. But it is still playable.
As I said before, when I bought mechwarrior 3rd edition and seen they were making the 4th edition and put out the 3rd anyways, I gave up on it. At that point it seemed they were changing everything they were doing just to sell more books. Sad thing is, I did not get the books when they hit the shelves. Half of them I seen only after years of being out. Not sure if it was the hobby stores I went to just didn't get them in a timely manor, or I just missed them.
Buying the newer stuff and still playing it isn't exactly the same thing. Granted, trying to get new map sets and stuff probably is considered supporting it, but that doesn't mean throwing all of it out just because of the bad ideas (my opinion since sales determines what works and what doesn't).
Hell. I wasn't a fan of DOOM, but without it, there would not be anywhere near the 1st person games out there had it not been popular with alot of others. It is possible for the developer to come up with something we can agree upon.
Granted, that might mean I need to see a psychiatrist as I may have finally lost touch with reality.
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Akirapryde2006
10/03/15 09:35 AM
71.100.132.249
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No, I am not going anywhere. But I don't think I will be further concerned with this topic. I have heard no points of interests that can convince me to make the leap of faith needed for my to find enjoyment within the Jihad or the Dark Ages.
I have plenty of old FASA books and Novels that I can continue to run the wonderful game without stepping in to these waters.
While I do have a lot of Dark Age 'Click' pieces that were given to me as a gift. I will not be expanding that collection as I had planned.
Akira
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ghostrider
10/03/15 11:46 AM
98.150.102.177
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Ok, then answer some of the other questions in the topic before it went to the jihad.
Or ask something that hasn't been thought of, or so old, people have forgotten it.
Hell. If you really feel up to it, some ideas of normal mechs from the star league times with the league's advanced weaponry would be interesting. Or even testing out the general range idea and see if it is worth it or not? IE the one that up to 5 hexes is short for all weapons, 10 medium with their standard max being max. Standard medium laser still max out at 9 but considered medium range.
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ghostrider
12/04/15 02:26 AM
98.150.102.177
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The thought about armored motive systems and other such devices has me thinking on why they are not fit into all newer vehicles. It would prevent the loss of alot of expensive vehicles that die from the stupid fact the crit so easily. Why field a tank worth 5 or more million if one shot kills it. At that point, a mech is worth the money, as they don't die that often.
Armored crew area like a case for them would be another thing. I still don't understand how tank crews can get to elite when any vehicle crews I have dealt with tend to die before their 10th fight.
Life is cheap, but training and equipment isn't in the game.
But that only seems to apply to battlemechs.
Even with maintenance costs. a mech is a better choice. Hell, powered armor is better then a lot of vehicles. Try hitting a unit sitting on top of your turret. Oh wait. The game doesn't let you do that.
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ghostrider
12/07/15 03:58 PM
98.150.102.177
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Cray. Is there any thing from the developers about how lrms and such work in space?
I don't believe they kept with the 30 meter hex as a base for space hexes, so how does the time difference of 1 minute verse 10 seconds equate to the range of the projectiles of not only missiles but any solid projectile, be it ac/gauss/antimissile/machine guns?
I would also like to know why a ppc shot doesn't dissipate in space, but does in the atmosphere. I will accept water vapor diffusing a laser beam, though not as much as it would suggest.
If this is because it is science fiction, please let me know. I know some things can not be answered with todays information base.
I guess given the time difference, space hexes should be 6 times the size of a normal battle tech hex. But it didn't. Speed of projectile would have some impact on accuracy of the shot as a faster moving projectile is harder to avoid.
Now with that, I would believe the slide or strafe maneuver should help fighters avoid shots. Would that be one of the next big things in the game? The ability to dodge shots while still moving forward like this?
Just like in the game descent.
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ghostrider
12/11/15 01:28 PM
98.150.102.177
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another stupid thought come to mind.
Is the mechs cockpit an temperature controlled environment, or is it set up like the novels say, where you just have a cooling vest to keep you cool during a fight?
The reason why I ask is the human body can take only so much heat before it passes out. Shouldn't there be a limit on how much heat you can build up before this could happen?
Like if you alpha fired a warhawks prime configuration 2 rounds in a row, and got lucky to avoid an ammo explosion, wouldn't that kill a pilot with just a cooing vest?
Even firing normal shots. Wouldn't it take a few seconds to dissipate the heat? Firing off 4 erppcs would still run the heat past the cockpit area. The heat is not instantaneously gone.
The one mech, I want to say the mongoose suggested the head mounted laser bleed directly into the cockpit making firing it uncomfortable for the pilot, in the fluff.
Was this an oversight on the developers part, or would that make piloting a mech something that wasn't desirable?
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Drasnighta
12/11/15 02:08 PM
198.53.98.65
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The 'mech Cockpit is a temperature controlled environment *TO A POINT*. They can even be sealed against Pressure + Vacuum.
It is just the Heating and Cooling Cycling system within the 'Mech Cockpit itself can be OVERWHELMED by the 'Mechs inherent heat generation.
You read a bit about bursts of heat, and the cyclers not being able to keep up with it, and that increasing the cockpit temperature to undesirable - and the cooling vest being what stops the Mechwarrior from Cooking or passing out, WHILE the cockpit heat cyclers get everything back under control...
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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ghostrider
12/11/15 09:08 PM
98.150.102.177
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In almost every thing I have read about being in a cockpit, very few don't suggest the pilot is sweating their butts off in combat. A few suggest the pilot is about ready to pass out from things like dehydration and even being to hot.
They also suggest alot of warriors strip naked in a few to help deal with the heat.
I don't know why, but I find it unlikely that the heat stops building because the coolant system is maxed out. That would imply the coolant itself would be warmer then the air as it flows thru the vest.
Maybe I am getting novels concepts of mechs mixed with the actual function of it. I see so many times the warriors opening the cockpit up to allow outside cool air into it since it is hot and stifled from just moving the mech, nothing more strenuous.
Even the simulators prince Victor used said it pumped hot air into the pod in order to simulate the heat build up. But as I said, that is novels, not the core rules.
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Akirapryde2006
12/11/15 10:13 PM
71.100.132.249
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
In almost every thing I have read about being in a cockpit, very few don't suggest the pilot is sweating their butts off in combat. A few suggest the pilot is about ready to pass out from things like dehydration and even being to hot.
Yes you are correct. Heat has been an issue with pilots since the dawn of Battlemechs. Heat can (and often) does play a very critical factor in any battletech mach up. Doesn't matter which two mechs are facing off, heat will play a factor within the mach. However an old saying from our games rings true. "Its all fun and games till you are on the heat scale."
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
They also suggest alot of warriors strip naked in a few to help deal with the heat.
I don't know why, but I find it unlikely that the heat stops building because the coolant system is maxed out. That would imply the coolant itself would be warmer then the air as it flows thru the vest.
I can think of two Solaris books where pilots have strip naked. It is also a clear failure of understanding how to deal with heat. By striping naked, you allow your skin to evaporate water (sweat) faster which leads to dehydration. In the army, we are trained not to remove clothing. But to keep our uniforms on.
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BobTheZombie
12/11/15 10:18 PM
192.160.64.177
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
But as I said, that is novels, not the core rules.
But the novels are canon after all...
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ghostrider
12/11/15 11:26 PM
98.150.102.177
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The idea of the standard locust is why heat is not always a factor for both sides. Total of 5 heat for using the medium laser and running. Even one engine crit will not overheat it.
Now that I think of it, the neural helm doesn't seem to have it set up so you have cool air blowing on you. It looks like all wires, and not ducts. Wouldn't that help the pilot feel better?
But this does go back to the original thought. At what point on the heat scale would a normal pilot pass out or even die from the heat?
Or to a lesser extent, take damage? You take damage from any cockpit hit, such as an mg shot, but not from heat.
And novels are canon is just throwing lighter fluid on the fire. Cause a few raging fires with that one
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ghostrider
12/12/15 11:37 PM
98.150.102.177
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damn internet connection. Lost the post, so try again...
Another thought came up with this concept.
The (canon) fluff for a demolisher says the crews need coolant suits to survive the use of the dual ac 20s. Not vests, but suits.
Yet vehicles are not supposed to be affected by heat from ballistic and missile weapons.
I find an older cockpit for mechs to be able to keep the pilot cool unrealistic. The mechs where the entire head assembly comes off in an ejection might be a better option, but even that is a little unlikely.
Now take an 8Q awesome. Before the sinks start pulling away the heat, a full volley of ppcs are 30 heat, over double of the demolishers main guns. Run the scale up firing like crazy, and say you are sitting at 20 heat. Another volley puts it at 50 before the sinks do their job.
At what point would a pilot die from the heat?
And the scary thing about this is... The demolisher is not the worse offender about heat build up in a vehicle.
The lrm carrier does 18 heat from the 3 lrm 20 packs it has, while the srm carrier builds 24 heat per turn. (correction. The srm carrier builds 40 points of heat, not 24. 10 launchers at 4 points each. I'm an idiot some times.)
And last I knew, vehicles did not build heat from movement even with a fusion engine in it.
Edited by ghostrider (12/12/15 11:40 PM)
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Drasnighta
12/13/15 12:07 PM
198.53.98.65
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IN the case of the demolisher, Its probably physical proximity to the ignition chambers.
The thing itself is boxy enough that ITS performance doesn't suffer - but the chambers themselves get almost red hot from continual firing.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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Drasnighta
12/13/15 12:07 PM
198.53.98.65
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What's okay for the machine may not be good for the meat.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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ghostrider
12/22/15 12:49 PM
98.150.102.177
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The fact of capital missiles were not lost, but was not built leads me to ask a question, and I am sure the answer is because the developers made a mistake and didn't want to admit they made a mistake with it.
Why did they stop producing the missiles?
Just because there were no war ships does not mean they would have stopped using them.
The Galax jump ship factories would be a great place to have them still working. Take out any ships invading or raiding the factories in space.
Kathil is another one like that. Capella with its functioning factories would be another.
Cost being the reason?
Why does that sound wrong? That would be like saying a cruise missile is too expensive, so we should not build them. What you use them for might make it stupid, ie blow up a single hut in the middle of no where vs taking out an hq building for the enemy.
I just do not see how the cost would cause the states to think wiping out enemy drops ships BEFORE they damage your irreplaceable factories is not how you do things.
If you the lack of techs is pronounced, you would use what ever you had to protect things like this. And that isn't even suggesting they would have launchers around the capital worlds and places like Defiance. I doubt they were concerned about cost when it comes to defending their plants. Even outside the militaries abilities.
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ghostrider
12/29/15 01:52 AM
98.150.102.177
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The notion that a torso mounted cockpit is safer then a head mounted one was brought up in another thread, and to prevent thread jacking I figured to ask here.
Is it really?
A roll of 12 to hit, is the main way to hit the head of the mech, while 2 and 7 are center torso if straight on. And the 2 could very well mean death from something like a single point of damage.
This is not adding in shots from above, or punches, which changes this dramatically.
It has more armor, sometimes. A rear shot has less the head armor normally has. It might just be me, which is why I am asking others if this is true.
Is the torso safer?
Is the head safer?
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Akirapryde2006
12/30/15 02:41 AM
71.100.132.249
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To hit the head on the D6 system (2nd Edition) you have to role a pair of sixes. which gives you a 36 to 1 odds of scoring a head hit which is 1/36 Probability or right around 3% of getting a head hit.
To hit the center torso, you have to score a seven between two dice.That is six total combinations of scoring a hit on the center torso. or 36 to 6 odds. 1/6 Probability or right around 17% chance of getting a torso hit during any given roll.
If you don't want to look at the odds of hitting the two different locations. You can look at the other factors which makes the Center Torso a deadly location for the cockpit.
What other factors?
The path of damage transfer. During the course of battle, damage will transfer from the outer limbs in to the center torso. This only grows the odds against the center torso.
So while yes a head hit can be devastating, the odds are in your favor that the head wont be hit during the course of a battle.
Akirapryde
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ghostrider
02/16/16 04:11 AM
98.150.102.177
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Seeing the urbie post made me realize another stupid hole in the game. The lb10x cannon is a ton lighter then the standard ac 10 for the inner sphere model. Better range, and to hit with the cluster rounds, yet lighter, and can use the solid slug rounds.
With everything dealing with the star league tech weapons being heavier or bulkier or both, This seems completely stupid.
This is one of those things that the normal ac 10 should be completely dead.
Some will say cost if the thing that keeps it there, but just as the clans removed the old tech from their units produced after their tech advanced, so should the ac 10 be dead. Use either round without an issue. Lighter as well.
Lighter things are more bulky or deal less damage.
Was this a ploy to get people to use the ac 10 series?
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KamikazeJohnson
02/16/16 02:14 PM
207.161.146.219
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Seeing the urbie post made me realize another stupid hole in the game. The lb10x cannon is a ton lighter then the standard ac 10 for the inner sphere model. Better range, and to hit with the cluster rounds, yet lighter, and can use the solid slug rounds.
With everything dealing with the star league tech weapons being heavier or bulkier or both, This seems completely stupid.
This is one of those things that the normal ac 10 should be completely dead.
Some will say cost if the thing that keeps it there, but just as the clans removed the old tech from their units produced after their tech advanced, so should the ac 10 be dead. Use either round without an issue. Lighter as well.
Lighter things are more bulky or deal less damage.
Was this a ploy to get people to use the ac 10 series?
I don't recall if the old TRO:2750 included the LB 10-X as Star League tech, but the TRO:3050 had the LB 10-X and the UAC/5 as the only upgrade IS autocannons. The intention was clearly to have the LB 10-X superior to the AC/10 in every way, but for some reason all the other LB-X classes were all bulkier than their Standard counterparts, which is inconsistent. My opinion? They should have allowed the Standard AC to become obsolete, used only in existing units or cheap assembly units (eg tanks).
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
02/16/16 06:08 PM
98.150.102.177
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The 2750 had the lb 10-x cannon with the ultra 5 cannon.
The other cannons (which came after the 2750 book) were heavier in most cases as well.
Thinking about it now, what is the actual difference in the lbx that isn't in standard. And don't say the cluster shot, as that is specialize ammo, not something completely different. Like the lrm variant ammunitions.
I would think they should have been able to modify the normal cannons breach and loading systems to fit the new ammunition and not have to deal with a whole new cannon set.
Using a shot gun as the base, any round that would fit in it should fire properly, like the assault slugs for a shotgun does. Otherwise, that should mean a new ammunition heading of lbx solid shot. This should mean even more things not working in other weapons.
Oversight, or just trying to keep it simple?
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ghostrider
02/19/16 03:50 AM
98.150.102.177
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The idea of what is considered a good supply of ammunition came up again in another thread. Which makes me wonder how people feel about this at times.
the ac 5 has 20 rounds per ton.
the ac 10 had 10 rounds per ton.
One ton seems to be fine for the 10, but some how have two 5's running of a single ton seems inadequate.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think this seems odd?
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Akalabeth
02/19/16 07:11 PM
64.251.81.66
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10 rounds is enough for most games. Tabletop games anyway. Megamek is another thing. One may need more ammunition if the battle is smaller (and thus more turns can take place)
Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
I don't recall if the old TRO:2750 included the LB 10-X as Star League tech, but the TRO:3050 had the LB 10-X and the UAC/5 as the only upgrade IS autocannons. The intention was clearly to have the LB 10-X superior to the AC/10 in every way, but for some reason all the other LB-X classes were all bulkier than their Standard counterparts, which is inconsistent. My opinion? They should have allowed the Standard AC to become obsolete, used only in existing units or cheap assembly units (eg tanks).
It's that way by design. 2750/3050 was the one time where clearly superior technology was introduced.
And since then, Catalyst/FanPro/FASA whoever have deliberately created new technology which is not superior, but rather just a different option. They've expanded technology laterally, keeping old mechs and technology viable. That's why "Improved Heavy Lasers" just have a different problem. Why "Advanced Tactical Missiles" are inferior to clan LRMs in many ways.
In fact the only thing they've really keen to get rid of regularly is Land Air Mechs, which even when they're brought back are destroyed to the last. Meanwhile a 600 old design gets updated, again, that's why the Warhammer has about 23 variants and the Warhammer IIC has 13 or so of its own. would rather more stuff was just let to die, but doesn't seem to be in the cards.
Edited by Akalabeth (02/19/16 07:21 PM)
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Karagin
02/19/16 09:15 PM
61.40.222.5
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See that is the problem, too many fans play BT like they do other games, run in and smash things. Battletech is not that kind of game. Megamek is a bad example to keep citing. It is NOT Battletech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/19/16 09:21 PM
61.40.222.5
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The idea of a design going out of use is a good point, BUT many nations today still use designs from WW2 in their military and simply upgrade them or don't since the cost is too much. Same would be found in the Inner Sphere where money is not going to be spent just to get the cool toys, again another in game thing vs players wanting the new toys.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Akalabeth
02/19/16 09:39 PM
64.251.81.66
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I don't play Megamek and don't consider it tabletop battletech but I know some people will make the argument that it's an example.
As for designs, I've heard that argument before and I think that any WW2 gear still in service is the outlier not the norm. Whereas in Battletech, it IS the norm. Think about how many designs have come and gone in the years since WW2. Particularly in the field of jet planes for example. We've gone from one jet, the ME-262, how many different models? And how many of those are out of service, never to be revived?
Tanks tend to stick around longer and are perhaps more analogous to mechs, but looking at the British they had the Centurion, the Chieften, the Challenger and now the Challenger II. That's not counting the many home-grown tanks from WW2 which were taken out of service: Vickers Light, Matilda I and II, Valentine, Churchill, A9, A10, A13, Crusader, Cromwell, Challenger, Tetrarch
I'm actually cool with mechs like the original 16 from both the inner sphere and clans being perpetuated throughout the timeline, but other designs should probably go the way of the dodo.
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Karagin
02/20/16 01:47 AM
61.40.222.5
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Still the jet fighter has not fully replaced piston engines for use by military powers, aircraft like Douglas Skyraider were is use during the Vietnam War as close air support for infantry and marine units, and even today a piston engine C-130 gunship still does the same thing and yes the A10 is there but it is not a fighter but a ground attack aircraft. So the idea that the jet has become so different from the Me262 is not saying much for the example, refined yes, but changed no.
Actually many had gone the way of the dodo till the equally silly and poorly written Jihad/Dark Age time line/story line came out. Now we see all of the old oddities coming back cause well, some are cool, and others to fill in the gaps. Would any of the original mechs fair well today? No, most wouldn't even hold their own against 3025 tech base, but that they are there and still is use actually says more about the state of interstellar travel and technology differences in the known regions of space in the BT universe then anything about the mechs themselves.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/20/16 02:39 AM
98.150.102.177
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Tech and costs seem to keep things from wwII around. A shot from an old carbine will still kill you, though you may not pump out 1000 rounds a second. And the main thing with tank upgrades hasn't be the frame, but engines and armor. I want to say the older tanks were larger then todays tanks, but I am not sure on this one.
The statement of the clans having so many variants of star league mechs seems to counter their waste policy. It would be easier to make it an omni mech, then be so wasteful as permanently mounting new weapons. I understand they change since they first came out, but without some real excuse like manufacturers making a different design of ppc then the next, there is no real excuse for it. Well atleast for the clans.
Back to the tech thing. Alot of countries do not have the advanced armors, and a good example of using what you have is the cavalry the polish used in the beginning stages of that same war. It was what they had. And some countries seem to rely on others selling them the weapons to boot. How many countries are buying the United States old weapons of war? That is why the older weapons are still used. Most would prefer the new abrams over the sherman or what ever is being sold, but almost any tank is better then nothing.
But i do agree that the IS would stop buying the older units as businesses go out of business. Retooling to make the parts for someone elses (insert whatever you want) just isn't worth it as normal prices. Some of the older model cars cost so much because parts have to be manufactured, since finding them is almost impossible. And eventually the original parts runs out, with newer designs making running older parts unlike. Built in obsolidity I believe is the term. Try finding a hand crank to a 1910 car or earlier. You tend to pay alot more or have to build it from scratch. That should be why some mechs should die off. Engines being built for just one unit would probably go up in price
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Karagin
02/20/16 05:57 AM
61.40.222.5
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Question now becomes what about those planets that in between the known star systems, like the ones that are 10 light years from say New Avalon or 5 light years? Are they all settled and under control of the Fed-Suns? Or what about the ones open space regions that no one totally claims? How many have thriving or semi-thriving populations? What tech level are they at? An AFV that was last seen in use in the Inner Sphere during the early days of the Age of War, may still be the height of advanced tech for planet Fillinaname and would be laughed at by even the weakest power found in the Inner Sphere.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/20/16 11:42 AM
98.150.102.177
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Depends on other factors. Something that close to New Avalon would have high tech garrisons as they are great staging areas for hitting New Avalon itself, but that isn't the point. The whole back waters world issues is. They would use what even they had since something is better then nothing. Even as a decoy, it would allow their militia infantry time to do something, even if it is nothing more then get people to the safety bunker.
If they have parked the drop ship they came in on, does that count for tech level? I would think not, as tech level seems more based on what they can make, not use, or have. Which might be something that could confuse people. Being in the midevil ages for what can be made, does not mean they don't have comms and other things, though that seems to be implied when talking about tech. Even having a worker mech, may not make the colony 'advanced'. Yet they could still use them for construction, farming, logging and such.
And this does has not touched the collector. The rich or those that have access to old units, could very well collect them and refurbish them. They might still be around.
But with that said, manufacturing new ones is the key here. As the clans did, the inner sphere should follow. Why build the old stuff, if you have a better newer model around? Besides a collector, who would really buy a model T car, when for the same price you could get a brand new car, and be able to get parts for it cheaply?
The game makes it sound like there were really no independent planets within the borders of the major states. Then a few stated like the one the grey death defended against the combine, Northwind, Outreach, and the chaos march when they were first taken, though that was more rebellious worlds still resisting being part of fedcom.
So the older tech units would still be there. I just don't see why the newer books would keep mentioning them as they should die off, unless they want to put it under classic units, or forgotten units.
I am still wanting to see the ideas of things like a locust standard load out during the star league, and the 3025 one should not be it. The copout of cost is bull. It would have advanced tech, especially if it was a star league or hemegony used unit. The story line makes you think they stuck in what ever they could to keep the mechs being used. Like the highlander. Without the high tech, how would the load out look on that? Or say the thug? I would think the locust would have had an erml at the least, with some extra weapons in the arms to cover the 3 ports instead of the 1 mg in each arm.
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Akalabeth
02/20/16 04:59 PM
108.180.183.124
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Eh, I don't really buy it to be honest. The political situation of Battletech and the real world are not analogous. There are not really many tiers of technology along political lines, there's simply the clans, the successor states and the periphery. And among those powers, alliances are few, far and in-between. So there's little reason or opportunity to supply another state with older technology.
Even the Davions didn't sell old machines but allegedly stock piled them, and then brought them out again to rebuild their forces after the civil war. They didn't sell them to Outworlds Alliance or the Marion Hegemony. Not to get political but if say the Periphery was its own sphere, and if the Successor states were each supporting different states as counters to each others power, like Britain supported the Ottomans against the Russians in the victorian era, it would make more sense but the states themselves have been just barely scrapping by for a hundred years and the Periphery even less so. After they upgraded their old machines would they build additional units of the same make? If that's all the factory has been producing sure, but once the factory switches to a newer machine in 3050, 55 or 60 would they then switch back to an older mech? Or would that discontinued mech fade away?
I don't know how many people have actually played Battletech, but when you have a game, mechs get irrevocably destroyed all the time. Particularly in Level 1 without CASE. The idea that mechs have even been passed down, generation to generation is a bit hard to believe, unless that mech is like the Griffins on Tharkad and doesn't see any action. War is like a meat grinder, or in this case, a myomer grinder and once units go in, many don't come out. And if they don't come out they disappear unless they get replaced.
I just don't think that anyone has even had an opportunity to sell old machines to anyone else. Everyone was as I say just scraping by for a hundred years and then when they finally started to improve the clans came in and tore everyone down, so they were immediately at war, building new machines to replace old ones. Davion was supporting Steiner, Kurita was fighting for themselves, Liao had been on life support since the 4SW, and House Marik became the Inner Sphere's arms dealer supplying the front lines with new machines. At what point was anyone comfortable enough to say "our army is where it needs to be, let's start replacing old models and sell them to someone else"?
Edited by Akalabeth (02/20/16 05:20 PM)
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ghostrider
02/20/16 06:07 PM
98.150.102.177
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According to the canon sources, both davion and kurita sold equipment to the outworlds alliance. It stated that the outworlds had to walk a fine line to buying such items from both to avoid angering either side. And the st. ives compact bought from the fedcom while it was still in effect, though it was not really considered an alliance so much as a friendly nation.
But the information about the U.S. settling items to others, was not supposed to be saying the innersphere does, but more along the lines of why our world still has countries using the old WWII surplus.
All houses were building for their own armies, though Marik was supplying upgrade kits more then units, or so I was lead to believe. For some, I can see them handing down their mechs from generation to generation. Simple garrison duty that very rarely saw action, with maybe pirates being the main opponent. I doubt there would be a whole company being passed down by one family, without them being a duke or something, but I can see one unit that is well kept. Most don't play with it, but the canon lines suggest the fighting sides to sell the salvaged materials back to the losers.
It would seem stupid, but given a specific raid, you don't have the space to load up tons of salvage, so selling it back would be better then just leaving it in the fields as you lift off. Not all raids have the time to take salvage anyways. Same with pilots. Ransom does happen.
I do agree a full upgrade of an army is not possible in a short period of time, but as units are replaced by loses, the newer equipment would replace the older stuff. Even doing the elites first, and handing down their units to lesser regiments would still happen.
As I said before, some units stopped being made because the lostech situation. The thorn is a good example, though it could have been done without the advanced tech. They just didn't change it over. Yet other mechs were. This is why I don't think the developers had any ideas of how the 16 original mechs would have been made in the star league time when they started with the 'lostech' materials. The lawsuit shut down alot of that as well, so I will cut them a little slack. And that does not consider comstars information base. Why would they use innersphere models once the star league tech started coming out instead of the designs they had from the star league? Hell alot of the newer mechs are based on the 'old' league models. Now that you have the league tech, why not use the league designs in their original forms?
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KamikazeJohnson
02/20/16 09:49 PM
207.161.146.219
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
According to the canon sources, both davion and kurita sold equipment to the outworlds alliance. It stated that the outworlds had to walk a fine line to buying such items from both to avoid angering either side. And the st. ives compact bought from the fedcom while it was still in effect, though it was not really considered an alliance so much as a friendly nation.
But the information about the U.S. settling items to others, was not supposed to be saying the innersphere does, but more along the lines of why our world still has countries using the old WWII surplus.
All houses were building for their own armies, though Marik was supplying upgrade kits more then units, or so I was lead to believe. For some, I can see them handing down their mechs from generation to generation. Simple garrison duty that very rarely saw action, with maybe pirates being the main opponent. I doubt there would be a whole company being passed down by one family, without them being a duke or something, but I can see one unit that is well kept. Most don't play with it, but the canon lines suggest the fighting sides to sell the salvaged materials back to the losers.
It would seem stupid, but given a specific raid, you don't have the space to load up tons of salvage, so selling it back would be better then just leaving it in the fields as you lift off. Not all raids have the time to take salvage anyways. Same with pilots. Ransom does happen.
I do agree a full upgrade of an army is not possible in a short period of time, but as units are replaced by loses, the newer equipment would replace the older stuff. Even doing the elites first, and handing down their units to lesser regiments would still happen.
As I said before, some units stopped being made because the lostech situation. The thorn is a good example, though it could have been done without the advanced tech. They just didn't change it over. Yet other mechs were. This is why I don't think the developers had any ideas of how the 16 original mechs would have been made in the star league time when they started with the 'lostech' materials. The lawsuit shut down alot of that as well, so I will cut them a little slack. And that does not consider comstars information base. Why would they use innersphere models once the star league tech started coming out instead of the designs they had from the star league? Hell alot of the newer mechs are based on the 'old' league models. Now that you have the league tech, why not use the league designs in their original forms?
I would imagine that most of the actual battles would have been far less destructive than the way we play BattleTech...if you're reponsible for a Company of machines, each one worth more than the annual GDP of most planets, you're going to be pretty reluctant to commit to a Do-or-Die action without a pretty good chance of success. Most battles would consist of scouting, a quick exchange of fire, and then one side or the other withdrawing. For example, a 'Mech with internal CT damage would likely disengage rather than risk being destroyed. Tanks and infantry would frequently be sacrificed to allow the valuable 'Mechs to limp away. Light and Medium 'Mechs would die to cover the retreat of an Assault 'Mech. Pursuit and Hunter-Killer lances would specialize in chasing down and disabling retreating enemies.
By contrast, what happens on the board? A badly damaged Heavy throws itself into the thick of things, letting its heat skyrocket as it tries to do as much damage as possible before dying.
Anyway, on the subject of "inherited" 'Mechs, etc...during a time period between Succession Wars when most battles are raids, these could happen with very little Total Loss...most damage being repairable or salvageable. There would be some inevitable attrition, but even the winners would attempt to disable rather than destroy so the 'Mechs can be captured and put into service. IIRC, a lot of the fluff in the early TROs talk about different houses gaining certain designs by capturing them in battle. A 'Mech could conceivably last through many battles, even being disabled in battle as long as the remains can be recovered and repaired.
In a universe where the most important thing is preserving your ability to make war, pitched battles to total annihilation would be the exception rather than the rule.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
02/21/16 02:25 AM
98.150.102.177
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The idea of something other then total destruction of forces was brought up before, but the lack of guidelines for them seems to keep the battles to destroy or be destroyed.
I want to say more tales of the black widow actually had a random roll for each side in one of the campaigns that dealt with this very thing. It was possible one side was on recon, while the other was on a search and destroy. The side that won, was the one that could complete it's mission, while denying the other their victory conditions. They even had rules in there that dealt with damage. A unit had to head towards their edge of the map if they took so much damage or was going internal. Another mission was search and rescue. One mech had to remain still in a hex for 3 turns or something like that.
It was interesting how they did it, and it would be something they should put in a normal rule book.
Granted copyrights might make that harder to do then just saying it, but I think it would give players more chance to strut their stuff doing real missions, not just destroy anything that moves.
There was some fluff about 2 sides sent to shut down a nuke reactor, and they had so many turns to destroy the enemy to do so. Both sides had retreated 4 minutes after the call to retreat was given. Neither side knew what the other was up to, and the reactor melted down. I can't remember if it was players story, or something in another adventure pack. But something like that would give players extra motivation to get the mission done.
Now one thing about do or die. If you are defending, you tend to commit that act as the enemy normally is a hated one, though it also depends on if you are doing a holding action or just harrassing the enemy.
But I do agree games tend to run the complete destruction of the enemy.
(Imagine. Ransoming an enemies mech back to them for c-bills. What a joke)
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Karagin
02/21/16 06:44 AM
61.40.222.5
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Okay so the Davions didn't sell stuff, but others did, as did and still do the manufacturers themselves. Old weapons and machines may not bring high dollar value in the Inner Sphere but a working or semi working 3025 tech Shadow Hawk or Wasp or J Edgar tank would bring decent money from on of the back water worlds or a merc unit needing to rebuild and who is to say a greedy Davion official didn't sell the stock pile Enforcers he was suppose to keep intact etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/21/16 01:22 PM
98.150.102.177
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actually, the davions did sell stuff. Even the canon sources say they sold to mercs. And since they used them often, it would make sense to keep them stocked, or at least under their control.
I would think Kurita would be the least likely to sell to others, except to form some sort of buffer zone, and the outworlds alliance would have been. I would suggest Liao would be another less likely to sell, but I want to say they were selling more to keep money flowing into the confederation. But I am not sure of this.
But Karagin brings up a good point. There are so many tales of quartermasters selling items to others for some quick money. More then a few stories tell of stockpiles being destroyed, only to find they were sold to someone else, and reported destroyed. And the official, not just davion, could very well more the stocks to a private location so they could form their own unit, or have a stash that even their own government didn't know about. Which could very well be HOW they are able to keep some machines in excellent conditions.
The thing I dislike about some stories is finding units from league time that have been lost for so long, yet they always seem ready to just jump in and run them. Anyone that has had a car sit for some time, knows the fuel turns to varnish. So cleaning the fuel system would be needed, as well as any sort of seals, even having to clean up contacts and such for electronics, yet you never read about that. Which also makes you wonder about caches. Some of the items were so unique, yet nothing needed to be replaced? But this is another story.
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Akalabeth
02/22/16 04:04 AM
108.180.183.124
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It's not about how people play the game, it's about how the game plays. How many mechs in 3025 have nothing but ammunition in a side torso. How many have ammunition in the centre torso? 18 damage to a MAD-3Rs LT will result in it's total destruction 41% of the time.
Any single hit on a Crusader or a Thunderbolt will destroy it 0.3% of the time. Hit it with a full SRM-6 pack for example and it will have a 1.8% chance of being completely destroyed. Hit a Crusader on the right or left side with a full SRM-6 pack and it will have a 7% chance of being destroyed assuming there are enough rounds left in it's LRM-15 bin.
Hit both racks on the side of a Crusader with an average 8 missiles and it will be annihilated 9.2% of the time.
This is all with a completely pristine mech looking at the odds with a through-armour critical (roll of 2). Once you're through the armour, the chances of getting an ammunition crit increase dramatically. Though to be fair, for a mech like the Crusader you may by that time be nearly out of ammunition in at least one side torso.
Similarly, any 10 point hit on a lightly armoured mech like a Shadowhawk 2D will destroy it 5% of the time
How many games in 3025 have you had where you lost a mech the first round? I remember my first tournament playing Battletech, I had a Catapult C3 my opponent had an Awesome 8Q. He hit me twice, same side torso, boom. One turn, one mech gone, one battle lost.
Either way I don't think the math really supports perpetual warfare. Remember that an ammunition explosion will destroy a unit utterly. Zero salvage.
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ghostrider
03/22/16 03:41 PM
66.74.61.223
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Another question came up and I would like input.
Does the ams work against capital missiles?
For some reason, I would think it shouldn't, but don't have the rules.
The though for using drones to intercept capital missiles came to mind with this one.
Or even anti missile missiles if you want to go that route.
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ghostrider
03/28/16 08:21 PM
66.74.61.223
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The statement a fighters exhaust screws up armor on ships.
Do they have any rules that goes along with this?
Like damage done.
If it is just inside the ship, or can a ship buzz another one and use it's fusion drives to melt armor off another ship?
The thought of a light fighter doing more damage torching a ship with it's thrust comes to mind, verse some of the weapons fire.
And I do consider this method extreme.
And while I think about it, does over thrust do more damage?
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Rotwang
03/29/16 04:18 AM
94.226.248.136
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The more you look at the weird bits in BT the more I feel my solution is the easiest. Just treat the board game as simply that, an abstract game that doesn't accurately reflect the various modern technologies in use somewhere in the 4th millennium.
Games like World of Tanks assign their designs with a number of arbitrary features like hit points that don't accurately reflect how tank armour really works and if you apply this to BT the whole ablative armour, every PPC is the same, mechs move inefficiently because of hex-based movement etc, makes sense in the game and in real life the Warhammer's Donal PPC's may be a little bit more effective in spreading their heat spikes than the Hellstars of a Marauder, who pack a better punch etc.
So my guess is that "real life BT" is probably a lot more complex than the game may suggest and certain things are glossed over for the sake of having a working background for the boardgame.
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ghostrider
04/07/16 12:19 AM
66.74.61.223
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Actually, I do understand why they went in certain directions.
To avoid being closer to another game that deals with the same concept.
The issues come about when it is suggested that something the tpb don't like things they try and use logic to explain why, but when that very logic is used to try and explain why other things are allowed, it drive me nuts. I would like some other reason besides I told you so for things.
But the game works, so in the end, that is what counts.
I hope to get some answers, but it seems answers tend to curl back to that's the way tpb wants it.
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ghostrider
04/07/16 12:45 AM
66.74.61.223
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The question of fusion engines in hover crafts need to be clarified.
The weight minimum for the engine.
Would that include the transmission?
Or just the engine weight itself?
I don't remember seeing that in any of the books, and would like to know it that was addressed.
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ghostrider
04/07/16 11:08 AM
66.74.61.223
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Did the developers modify the battlespace hit locations like they did the vehicle location tables?
I would figure warships, aerodyne drop ships and fighters would all need to have the sides of the unit be open for damage on top of normal locations. At least for actually fought battles.
That was one issue that did come to mind a long time ago. Wings that stuck out, not just ran along the edge, could be hit, though it would be much rarer then the nose.
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ghostrider
04/09/16 09:58 PM
66.74.61.223
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What happened to sensor baffles?
The subject came up with another thread, and it made me realize, there seemed to be NO reference to this material during the clan invasion. I can understand the advanced probe being an issue with it, but not all units have it. Also, I doubt the IS would have rebuilt all their bunkers and such that use it just because the probe was re released into military production.
The IS seems to have alot of issues upgrading their main units, much less defensive buildings built before the clans were known.
Is there a canon explanation to this, or is it another useful idea at the time only to be forgotten later?
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Cray
04/10/16 03:38 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
What happened to sensor baffles?
The subject came up with another thread, and it made me realize, there seemed to be NO reference to this material during the clan invasion. I can understand the advanced probe being an issue with it, but not all units have it. Also, I doubt the IS would have rebuilt all their bunkers and such that use it just because the probe was re released into military production.
Sensor baffles? A lot of proto-ECM and stealthy technology in the IS was standardized as the Guardian ECM suite and stealth armor.
Quote:
The IS seems to have alot of issues upgrading their main units, much less defensive buildings built before the clans were known.
Explanation: the Inner Sphere's military industry in 3050 was ****. It was less shitty than in 3025 or 3005, but it was still waking up from a 250-year nightmare of the Succession Wars. Production of new tech equipment was at a very immature state in 3050. The Inner Sphere really wouldn't hit its stride until about 3070, by which time the FedCom Civil War had ruined that nation's military again.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/10/16 03:52 PM
66.74.61.223
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The materials used in combat buildings in a few adventure pacts said they were made with sensor baffles so units could not detect them until they were spotted or fired. Macarrons armored calvalry was good about pushing that during the raid on marlette if I remember right. As this pack had the star league devastator in it, it was not as old as I thought it was in the time line. During the ring of death campaign. They also introduced the fire walls that are basically case for buildings. 1992 copyrighted. Page 38-39 has several buildings that use the sensor baffles in them.
Might be before you joined the team, or copyrights might not have transferred. Even just slipping notice is possible.
I would like to know about what happened.
I find it odd something as useful as this would slip out of the books unless it was deemed to powerful for taking out mechs.
It does describe a few useful buildings for defenses, including the mech trap, and several options to make them even more dangerous.
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ghostrider
04/10/16 05:28 PM
66.74.61.223
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I asked about double sinks and if they limit the amount of sinks an engine can hide.
A though along with line came up that it would be interesting to hear.
Does an xl engine, having the extra critical spots taken up, hide more sinks then the engine normally does?
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Akalabeth
04/11/16 05:17 AM
108.180.183.124
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How many heat sinks fit in the engine is solely dependent upon the engine's rating and nothing else
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Drasnighta
04/11/16 12:42 PM
198.53.98.65
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Yes, it is solely dependant upon the engine's rating.
Its probably (somewhat) justified that they don't hide more, because the actual components of the XL Engine are said to be lighter, but bulkier, in order to provide its weight savings...
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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ghostrider
04/11/16 12:57 PM
66.74.61.223
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So any information on why a half ton engine can carry ten tons of sinks with no weight?
Should any fusion engine be able to carry the same amount of double heat sinks?
Lighter and bulkier materials sounds like more room for sinks to be installed. The idea that a fusion engine can be half a ton, sounds unlikely to begin with. And yet the larger engines jump in weight so much more. From .5 tons of the smallest normal fusion engine up the 52.5 tons for the largest.
Yet they take up the same space as all the rest.
Also, it was suggested a while back, that part of the engine components were the sinks themselves. Even the definition of the double sinks follows the lighter and bulkier concept.
I agree it should not, but this is a question that should have been answered when the new rules came out.
It comes down to balance. Which in the original game, but later changed in updates, the number of sinks was 10 for all engines.
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Akalabeth
04/11/16 01:20 PM
64.251.81.66
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There's a forum for these questions, suggest you use it:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?board=34.0
Asking people who didn't design the game why the game is designed that way is a lot like barking up the wrong tree. And while Cray may or may not be a designer, not sure, there are more people on the official forums to answer.
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Cray
04/11/16 05:46 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
Drasnighta writes:
Its probably (somewhat) justified that they don't hide more, because the actual components of the XL Engine are said to be lighter, but bulkier, in order to provide its weight savings...
Unlike heat sinks elsewhere in a 'Mech (which are generic heat pumps and radiators), heat sinks in the engine are regenerative systems scavenging waste heat, like the cogeneration systems of modern gas turbine power plants. There's only so much waste heat to scavenge based on an engine rating.
DHS in the engine use more modern materials and topping cycles to extend the amount of scavenging they can accomplish, so you can fit twice the heat capacity of DHS into an engine than with SHS. But, again, the total waste heat is limited by the engine rating. After a while you just have to put conventional heat sinks in the rest of the 'Mech.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/11/16 07:29 PM
66.74.61.223
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You have said this before.
Now to clarify this.
The total waste heat is determined by the sinks and type installed, or is it limited by the amount it can move like sinks in water?
The enclosed and probably sealed environment that the torso would have to be in order to avoid issues submerging, would suggest only so much heat can be moved in the torso.
Now the next part of the question. Was the idea of 10 free tons of heat sinks in the unit something that was overlooked and just not addressed?
Or did that lead to not being able to do much with the unit once the sinks were dealt with?
I would think the engine weight should determine the number of free sinks. I was going to say up to the normal max, but the costs start getting heavy in the higher end, so I would think all that can be hidden.
And with the heavier weights, why not make the max amount free with the engine?
So the 400 should come with 16 no weight free sinks. It would follow the logic given for under 10.
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ghostrider
04/12/16 01:19 AM
66.74.61.223
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The question comes to mind, that if the engine can hide only so many sinks, and the rest are put to pumps and radiators, wouldn't that mean those outside the hidden engine parts have to have weight?
Example.
The omni 25 in the savanha master would hide 1 sink. So how the other 9 free sinks with the engine could not be passed off as in the engine, but require the radiator/pumps. So some how the materials used for the sink hidden in the engine are no longer valid, yet there is no additional weight applied to them?
And with that, the new materials used for the xl is the same heat conductive/dissipative materials used in normal engines?
Since the entire engine is made of this material, not just part of it, something doesn't add up right.
Such material is useful to both normal sinks as well as double sinks, or so goes the explanation. Does this mean you could incorporate that same material directly into the weapons and keep them cooler? I would think a ppc with no heat is worth a ton or 2 extra weight.
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ghostrider
04/20/16 01:18 AM
66.74.61.223
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Had a question come up about the minimum weights for the hovers again.
If the developers were that concerned about having these heavy armored hovers moving around at high speeds with little engines, why did they give them the high suspension factors?
This one thing could have made sure the fast, heavy armored hovers would not exist.
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Akalabeth
04/20/16 06:51 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
Cray writes:
It is 20%.
This is a feature that dates to the 1986 Citytech construction rules, the first rule set for vehicles. The idea was purely out-of-character: hover vehicles had high suspension factors, which meant they could be very fast with a modest engine size. However, since hover vehicles were envisaged as light, thin-skinned vehicles that lived by their speed, it wouldn't do to let the vehicles be floating 5/8 slabs of armor with 10-rated engines.
The quick-and-dirty kludge to force that vision of hovercraft was to set a minimum 20% of hovercraft tonnage as engine weight.
There's not an in-character reason for it, no handy engineering to explain minimum engine weights. Like a lot of vehicle rules, it was just there to enforce certain notions about combat vehicle performance and roles.
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ghostrider
04/20/16 07:23 PM
66.74.61.223
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That is why I asked if there was a reason they stuck with the high suspension factor.
The first update could have resolved that issue buy dropping the suspension factor or by just adding in that was ICE only.
Then they could have done something with the release of the xl engines.
I would think test playing it would have shown the issue but I guess it was something they didn't want to deal with at the time.
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Akalabeth
04/20/16 07:29 PM
64.251.81.66
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This is the relevant portion:
Quote:
Cray writes:
However, since hover vehicles were envisaged as light, thin-skinned vehicles that lived by their speed, it wouldn't do to let the vehicles be floating 5/8 slabs of armor with 10-rated engines.
(emphasis mine)
The devs wanted hovercraft fast foremost of all.
The Suspension factor and minimum weight requirement facilitates that.
Whether it's fast with heavy armour or fast with weak armour is less relevant. 3026 has both heavily armoured and lightly armoured hovercraft.
People only started caring about hovercraft armour when the Regulator came out. But its armour profile isn't far removed from the 3026 Drillson
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ghostrider
04/22/16 01:22 AM
66.74.61.223
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Did they think of limiting the armor on hovers?
Like'due to the constructional limitations for hover craft', there is a max limit of say 4 or 5 armor points per internal structure max. Cite things like keeping the main fans unrestricted air flow or keep control surfaces/vents clear. Things like that.
Maybe it was just my experience, but hovers tended to die quickly when hit, since just about any hit was -1 move. So getting hit with even 3 missiles tended to almost ground the hover. Yes, the newer rules have lessened that.
I guess the advanced items threw the balance off the game as people started focusing on certain items. Happens with all games.
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Akalabeth
04/22/16 02:33 AM
108.180.183.124
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Swapping out the engine restriction in favour of limiting armour on hovercraft wouldn't have prevented slow, heavily-armed platforms.
And imposing a limit while also imposing the engine tonnage requirement would have been a lot of fiddly restrictions for what is intended to be a simple unit.
Vehicles are supposed to be less complicated than battlemechs in both design and play. Creating a lot of rules by which to design them would have defeated that purpose.
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ghostrider
04/22/16 10:44 AM
66.74.61.223
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It was concerned that hovers would be heavily armored, not armed.
And they did the armor restrictions with the rotors of vtols, so it wouldn't have been out of place.
I would think you would want speed in a unit that could be brought down with a single large laser or ac 10 shot. Hard to hit over taking damage. At that time, vehicles did not have the staying power of mechs. The crits alone tended to kill them without full armor breach.
A slow hover would be a dead hover. Open areas is where hovers go. No real cover, unless you park on the other side of woods or mountains. Can't go in them at all.
With building a hover, knowing the max armor that could be put on it, would give you advanced notice you had x amount of weight to begin with. And that is IF you max out armor.
And honestly, they should have stuck with armored limits for vehicles as they did mechs.
Now if some people made the maxed out 2/3 move hovers, it is just like saying over powered mechs are up to the players. Same thing here. Most that play hovers know that is a unit that will die rather quickly. Decently skilled, it can do some damage, but it will be grounded very quickly.
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Akalabeth
04/22/16 01:54 PM
64.251.81.66
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The idea is that hovercraft are supposed to be FAST.
Only the minimum engine weight combined with the lift factor create this dynamic.
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ghostrider
04/22/16 10:31 PM
66.74.61.223
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Without such a high lift factor, people would have to use a larger (heavier) engine to move the vehicle. The weight minimum looks more like it was to prevent fusion engines from being used.
The example of a hover craft design in the master rules (page 119) says a 25 ton hovercraft going 10 mp, needs an engine of 120. Even the ICE for that engine is 4 tons. The fusion is 2. Only one place, and not the example says about the 20%, and that is the suspension factor table. So the example given suggest something lighter then the 5 tons needed to meet it.
I don't know when they clarified the extra shielding is part of this weight, but in the earlier game, it was not stated.
So the engine minus shielding was implied for the 20% rule. This along insured faster craft. Once they stated shielding was part of the weight, it opened up door for lighter weights, as did the lighter fusion engines made it even more likely to have the buff hovers.
Now with the introduction of xl fusions, it allowed faster hovers. Granted once you hit 8+ movement, you max out the bonuses to be hit, so their comes a point when faster speeds is beyond needed.
Given most of the factory maps, a hover craft can not really go more then 15 or so hexes in a straight line. Some of them is impassible to hover craft. They have light woods across a section of it.
The lighter engines is part of why the old rules need further updating.
But when they came out, the higher suspension factor kind of worked against them.
I asked if the developers were so concerned with small, fast heavy armored hovers, why keep the high suspension factor?
Envisioning fast craft and looking like they sabotagued their own construct seemed to be the outcome.
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Akalabeth
04/22/16 11:49 PM
108.180.183.124
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Who says the developers had a problem with armoured hovercraft?
They could have easily prohibited XL engines from hovercraft as they did double heat sinks.
The Fulcrum was designed on FASA's watch, not FanPro's or Catalysts and it has both an XLE and some 10 tonnes of armour.
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ghostrider
04/23/16 12:41 AM
66.74.61.223
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The implication of fast, thin skinned units that lived by their speed pretty much means heavy armor on hovers was frowned upon.
Granted, weither that is canon information or just someone that deals with the company on a regular basis, suggesting this, could change the entire scope of this particular issue.
Now I may have misread that, but it sounds like they were looking at hovers as fast hit and run units, not mbts.
It also looks like they wanted to avoid small engines allowing a vehicle to mount more weapons and armor then a mech while moving faster then a mech.
And honestly, if it wasn't a problem, why make the 20% rule in the first place?
I do understand limiting them some, but when the other companies took over, they could have revamped the design rules, not only for this, but a few other things as well.
It is nice they finally clarified some issues, such as the shielding being part of engine weight limits, but other rules could have been updated as well. But that is a separate issue at this point.
I wanted to know if they looked at other possible solutions to the problem since fusion engines seemed to throw alot of the work out the window.
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Akalabeth
04/23/16 01:58 AM
108.180.183.124
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The 20% minimum is to induce a minimum speed for hovercraft. A 50 ton hovercraft for example with the 20% minimum has a minimum speed of 8/12.
And who said they didn't want armoured hovercraft? In the original Citytech, there are two 50 ton tanks. The Condor and the Vedette. One hover, one tracked. Which tank do you think has more armour? Which do you think can deal more damage?
If your assumptions about their design decisions were true, wouldn't they be evident from the start? It's fairly apparent that they wanted hovercraft to go fast and little else.
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ghostrider
04/23/16 02:43 AM
66.74.61.223
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
This is the relevant portion:
Quote:
Cray writes:
However, since hover vehicles were envisaged as light, thin-skinned vehicles that lived by their speed, it wouldn't do to let the vehicles be floating 5/8 slabs of armor with 10-rated engines.
(emphasis mine)
You quoted Cray twice with this being the emphasis.
So that is the answer to your question about armored hovers.
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ghostrider
04/23/16 02:57 AM
66.74.61.223
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Gotta love the tros. 3026 has the condor listed as a 7/11 move unit, with the same weight and engine maxim listed at 8/12.
The drillson being the same weight has a 4 ton ice moving at 6/9. The engine being rated at 65.
Even the canon books didn't follow their own rules.
The wiki has the drillson with a fusion engine of a larger size then the tro.
I may have to break out the old city tech and check to see if they used the same stats as the 3026.
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Akalabeth
04/23/16 03:00 AM
108.180.183.124
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What do you define as a slab of armour and what hovercraft violates this?
No hovercraft violates the 5/8 movement speed in that quote which to me is the more relevant portion.
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Karagin
04/23/16 04:13 AM
61.40.222.5
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For a while the speeds were what the author/designer wanted or felt met the designs role, and yes there were oddities in the ORIGINAL TRO3026. Then the Powers that Be felt the need to fix the errors and oddities and thus things changed. So you know have the hovercraft with the max settings for speed, in other words, if the math says it will go 8/12 then it is going to have that for cruise and flank speeds, thus the hovers are all similar in that regard, and they all have the glaring weakness of the airbag that gets blown up easily given the to hit table and how it works.
NONE of the Battletech hover craft are like those seen in the HAMMER SLAMMERS novels, no ducted fans in an armored nacell raising the vehicle of the ground, instead what we see is the common air-cushion or air bag style. The bags do have an armored skirt but it's not like they gain anything from it, since the hovercraft's armor total armor factor includes this. So really hovercraft are great for hit and run, but not suited for actual head on combat. No woods, no rough terrain, easily immobilized once it takes a side hit, main benefits are able to cross water of any type, and their speed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
04/23/16 04:28 AM
61.40.222.5
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Also what we need to keep in mind is that many of us have different takes on how things work in the game, even with the official descriptions and such, many will still draw different conclusions about how things work. Which is fine, and at the same time many want to adjust things to fit how they see these things work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/23/16 11:37 AM
66.74.61.223
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Have to look up to see if any hovers do the 5/8 move.
Your own example of the condor/vedette comparison shows why the high lift factor for hovers is not a good thing.
Both have 6 tons of armor, while the original condor has 3 mls over the vedette and its cruise is the vedettes flank speed.
More weapons with same armor package. Even with the crit situation with hovers, the vedette shows the issues with the high lift factors.
As for the question of what is considered a slab of armor.
Everyone is different. I don't have an issue with a hover having 10 tons of armor on it. It could carry 20 for all I care. It could carry almost no armor and have a pair of gauss rifles on it.
Without the lift factor, the unit would require a much heavier engine, meaning this sort of set up would be less likely. Hovers need the speed. No damage means more likely to survive to use ammo reserves.
This limits the hovers to a more supportive hit and run role. I like a nice hover that can slow down enemy units and take them out if they are the only thing in the field. Doesn't mean I think they should regularly destroy assault battalions with a meer lance of them.
Now when did the stop hovers from going through rough?
Master rules saying only wood are forbidden terrain.
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Akalabeth
04/23/16 05:02 PM
108.180.183.124
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So your problem with hovercraft is that essentially you think they're too good. But if the hovercraft fit the designer's vision, then it's not really a problem in the design, it's just that you don't like the choices the designers made.
Battletech is a game where units are given a particular feel to how they operate. Doing away with the lift factor helps erode difference between different vehicle types. Take that away and you don't get specialized hovercraft as you presume, rather you get homogeneous vehicles where the difference between tracked and hover vehicles is less meaningful.
If you want hovercraft to be lightly-armoured, fast skirmishers how would you achieve that?
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ghostrider
04/23/16 07:20 PM
66.74.61.223
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I think all vehicles are biased against. I think there is a problem with the rules for design. But that isn't the question at heart in this particular concept. I want to know if they had considered other options before deciding to keep the high lift factor.
I would like to know how reducing or even removing the lift factor from hovers would erode the differences?
As your example showed, the hover is over powered compared to a tracked unit. Reduce the lift factor would require a larger engine to be used to keep up the speed.
If the designer decided to leave the small engine/low speed, then it is the same thing as the 101 ton+ units. Slow moving target on something that loses movement with almost each hit. And this was done when 3 hit locations front/rear were movement hits, and 4 locations on the side were. The choice between speed and weapons/armor would have to be decided on.
The lift factor made that choice obsolete.
And I find it odd that someone that thinks vehicles are too powerful as is, has an issue with making one type have to decide if weapons/armor is worth the slower speed.
I am not the one that wanted hovers to be the fast skirmishers. But that is the most likely role for them.
The conclusion of low/no lift factor means more weight to engine to keep it fast. How this does NOT lower the armor/weapons loads, I would love to hear.
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Akalabeth
04/23/16 07:36 PM
108.180.183.124
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Here's a hovertank with the lift factors removed:
Code:
BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Vedette Medium Hover Tank
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Hover Vehicle
Rules: Level 1, Standard design
Mass: 50 tons
Power Plant: 250 Locom-Pack InterComBust I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Armor Type: ProtecTech 6 Standard
Armament:
1 Armstrong J11 Autocannon/5
1 Scatter Gun Light Machine Gun
Manufacturer: New Earth Trading Company
Location: New Earth
Communications System: ComStar Rover
Targeting & Tracking System: ComStar Test-2
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Vedette Medium Hover Tank
Mass: 50 tons
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 25 pts Standard 0 5.00
Engine: 250 I.C.E. 0 25.00
Cruise MP: 5
Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks: 0 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.50
Crew: 4 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 1.00
Armor Factor: 96 pts Standard 0 6.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 5 20
Left / Right Sides: 5 18/18
Rear: 5 20
Turret: 5 20
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Autocannon/5 Turret 0 20 2 9.00
1 Machine Gun Front 0 100 2 1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 0 4 49.50
Items & Tons Left: 11 .50
Does this hovertank design look familiar?
If the lift factor is removed, what reason do I have to make it fast? A hovertank design becomes indistinguishable from a tracked tank design except in what terrain or damage affects it.
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ghostrider
04/23/16 09:49 PM
66.74.61.223
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Never heard of a vedette hover tank.
Putting hover in the name does not make it so.
Main reason it looks like that is no lift system. Oops.
Now what does this show us?
That hovers are not balanced with the rest of the vehicles. They pack more firepower and armor then a tracked unit of the same size. Maybe they should have less firepower and armor as the hover should remove alot of this from being in there.
Do I like that idea? No.
With this done, the idea of heavy hovercraft diminishes. The larger the vehicles, the heavier the engine needed.
To make it faster, you need to use lighter weapons and armor.
The makes it very distinguished from other vehicles.
It says hover craft are not a mbt. They should not carry the firepower of a tracked unit. Now imagine the condor with a fusion engine. That gives you almost enough weight for another ac 5, as 9 heat sinks are dropped with the fusion engine installed.
You answered the argument you had. The hover suspension factor allows the hover to move faster with more weapons and armor then the same weight tracked vehicle.
I will throw you a bone though. Engine size would limit speeds as the heavier engines would force lower speeds on lighter units. That is one thing that is an issue.
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Akalabeth
04/23/16 10:41 PM
108.180.183.124
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Create a design that demonstrates what you envision using the rules you feel should apply. Put your theory to practice.
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ghostrider
04/24/16 12:31 AM
66.74.61.223
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I will admit, after looking at the 2 tanks side by side, I wonder if they might have gone heavier with the engine.
They should have caught the suspension factor was too high when fusion engines were used.
I don't think they realized just how bad it would get, though they made both the tanks in question in the same book. And sadly, 30% of the hovers weight is engine/lift. So the other 70% still blows away a tracked vehicle.
I do see no suspension factor would be hard to deal with in the heavier engines.
Without lowering engine weight for the larger engines a little, or banning fusion engines from hovers, lowering the suspension factor a bit would be one option.
Raising the engine percentage would be another.
Maybe be lowering the overall top weight of hovers might do the trick.
A combination of things might have worked as well. Something simple like suggesting the hovers have added movement due to no friction with the ground. No contact, so moves easier. Could give a bonus of like 2 mp or so.
Look at the issue with the saladin and the hetzer. With 5 less tons, the saladin is superior to the hetzer hands down.
This alone would suggest the hover craft would be the better mbt. Faster, more heavily armed and armored. Sounds like the suspension factor didn't work as they had envisioned.
But this still doesn't answer the original question. Did they look at other options before settling with this one?
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ghostrider
04/24/16 01:00 AM
66.74.61.223
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As a side note, the condor and vedette in city tech does NOT match the ones in the 3026 tro.
The condor lacks the ac 5 and had 2 flamers and 8.5 tons of armor, while the armor for the vedette was completely wrong.
In city tech, all turrets were in full ton increments as well.
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Akalabeth
04/24/16 01:20 AM
108.180.183.124
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Saladins die in one hit. I don't consider that superior myself.
Quote:
A combination of things might have worked as well. Something simple like suggesting the hovers have added movement due to no friction with the ground. No contact, so moves easier. Could give a bonus of like 2 mp or so.
This is just suspension factor in another form, except uniformly applied against all vehicles regardless of base speed. Shouldn't a 10/15 hovercraft benefit more than a 5/8 hovercraft?
So what hovercraft do you find problematic? What lance of hovercraft can defeat an assault battalion? In what games were those vehicles a problem?
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ghostrider
04/24/16 12:29 PM
66.74.61.223
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Shouldn't a 10/15 hovercraft benefit more than a 5/8 hovercraft?
Benefit how? It's already faster.
By the entire set up with the game, faster means less armor and weapons, and even weight. Played right and no (un)lucky rolls, the 10/15 should survive longer from just not being hit.
So clarify this a little more.
The statement of saladins die in one hit tells me you don't use weapons at medium lasers and less in damage..
Where the side armor is thin, it still has double the speed of the hetzer. With another 5 tons to use, it may actually have armor close to the hetzer. And wheeled vehicles have more restrictions on where they can go.
The incremental weight increases for the lighter engines are extremely small compared to the larger engines. From 10 rated engines to the 300, there a whole 18.5 ton difference. From 300 to 400 there is 33.5 tons. The is not including the ICEs. No normal vehicle can carry an ICE 400. 105 tons for it.
Lighter hovers can gain more speed then heavier ones from this fact alone. Yet the table for suspension factor helps the larger ones move at a speed that does not fit with the rest of vehicle movement profiles.
The suggestion of 2 mp was an alternative that is not giving a massive bonus for nothing.
I think all hovercraft have an advantage of movement without paying for it.
The example of the lance of hover craft should be reread.
Doesn't mean I think they should regularly destroy assault battalions with a meer lance of them.
Somewhere in this statement, the misread part states I have seen a lance of hovers beating an assault battalion without any sort of no fluke rolls.
This is not how that statement reads.
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Akalabeth
04/24/16 03:39 PM
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Again, what's a specific hovercraft you have a problem with?
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ghostrider
04/24/16 06:38 PM
66.74.61.223
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As you have not answered the question if the developers looked at other ways of dealing with hovers, I will have to say your answer is you have no idea.
Now as for a specific hovercraft, the entire idea that the any hover can move faster, while carrying more armor and weapons then a tracked unit of the same weight is a big far fetched. As pointed out, they were not designed to be mbts but some how are more powerful then those units.
So there isn't a repeat of that question. ALL HOVER CRAFT have this issue.
Vtols have a 10 rating higher for their engines then the same weight hover. Most of those have assistance in flying where the hover isn't as aerodynamic.
If I remember the comparison of a lance of centurions verse manitcore tanks, being the same bv yet the manticores have 10 tons of weapons more as well as range, yet you could make a hover manticore with even more speed and stuff, and that isn't an issue, then something is wrong with the perception of the game.
Now I see why there was no issues with vehicle crits. Facing an 8/12 hover that has the same firepower as a heavy mech would cause me to think they needed the crits to make killing them possible.
Maybe a 50 ton hover with lpls and tcs might be the key to showing the edge the hovers have. Tracked and wheel vehicles wouldn't stand a chance with averages. I doubt alot of mechs will either, barring the move crits.
As the emphasis on game balance has been the argument for most against most changes, this seems to be one that has been overlooked.
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Akalabeth
04/25/16 12:45 AM
108.180.183.124
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Quote:
If I remember the comparison of a lance of centurions verse manitcore tanks, being the same bv yet the manticores have 10 tons of weapons more as well as range, yet you could make a hover manticore with even more speed and stuff, and that isn't an issue, then something is wrong with the perception of the game.
What, you mean this Manticore Hover Tank?
Code: BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Manticore Heavy Hover Tank
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3060
Config: Hovercraft
Rules: Level 1, Standard design
Mass: 50 tons
Power Plant: 165 VOX Fusion
Cruise Speed: 86.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 129.6 km/h
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
1 PPC
1 LRM 10
1 SRM 6
1 Medium Laser
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Manticore Heavy Hover Tank
Mass: 50 tons
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 25 pts Standard 0 5.00
Engine: 165 Fusion 0 6.67
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 3.33
Cruise MP: 8
Flank MP: 12
Heat Sinks: 13 Single 0 3.00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.50
Crew: 4 Members 0 .00
Lift Equipment: 0 5.00
Turret Equipment: 0 1.00
Armor Factor: 176 pts Standard 0 11.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 5 42
Left / Right Sides: 5 33/33
Rear: 5 26
Turret: 5 42
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 PPC Turret 10 1 7.00
1 LRM 10 Turret 4 12 1 6.00
1 SRM 6 Turret 0 15 2 4.00
1 Medium Laser Front 3 1 1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 13 4 56.00
Items & Tons Left: 11 -6.00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 2,386,000 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,060 (old BV = 703)
Cost per BV: 2,250.94
It's 6 tons overweight. Illegal. Try to put in an XL or a Light Fusion in there and you'll get the same result because guess what, the minimum engine weight requires that it mount less armour and weapons.
You need to test your theories by putting them into practice instead of just relying on assumptions. One can't replicate a manticore on a hovercraft frame.
Is the Condor better than the Vedette? Sure. But the Vedette is also very inefficient. A 250 ICE engine weighs a lot. The engine weighs HALF its weight.
What about a Hetzer? Can't replicate that either. A 40 ton hovercraft with the same armour, armament and ammo as a Hetzer comes up 2 tons short because again it's required to have a certain size engine which demands that it moves 7/11. Speed restricts its ability in other areas. Does it get a speed boost? sure.
What about the Scorpion?
Try to create a Hovertank @ 25 tons with an ICE with the Scorpion's armament and armour. You come up 1.5 tons short.
Hovertanks don't do the same thing but better. But they move faster and have less armour and weapons as proven by the above.
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ghostrider
04/25/16 12:34 PM
66.74.61.223
|
Are you using an export program?
If so, which program did you use?
So the weapons package of a tank 10 tons heavier isn't working in it. Drop the ml and extra sinks, as well as 2 tons of armor, and you still have a powerful tank. Not exact, but close enough.
And the unit moves double the speed of the heavier tank. I don't know about others, but in most battles, this would be the better unit. The speed alone would say that.
And I still say hovers have the advantage over other units with the speed.
It is funny that something that requires 30% of its weight to movement is so close to heavier vehicles in armor and weight. Yet tends to have a cruise faster then most flank speeds sometimes doubled.
Looks like the hunters weapon package fits in the saladin frame just fine. And with the extra speed makes it that much more dangerous. And that is bumping the armor up to the same level as the hunter.
The only minor issue is the flame throwers heat. Change out to mg and 1/2 ton ammo, and your fine. Or move to fusion engine. And still your cruise speed is equal to the flank speed of the hunter.
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Akalabeth
04/25/16 02:22 PM
64.251.81.66
|
I'm exporting with HMV.
So you want to put an LRM-20 on a Saladin and rush towards the enemy at 12 hexes per turn? Okay dude.
Anyway, point is your claim that you can put an MBT's armament on a hovercraft and have a superior machine is quite simply false. If you're removing 6 tons of armour and armament you don't have the same tank at all.
Also you've consistently presented a tracked tank's speed and a hover tank's speed as being equal. This is not the case at all. Terrain restrictions aside, Hover Tanks are subject to sideslipping at flank speeds which in tight terrain can mean instant death if it sideslips into a forested area or mountain. This is particularly important for tanks like the Saladin with no turret. The only dependable speed for a hovertank is its cruising speed.
For a hovertank speed is not only life but it's risk as well. Unless the only manoeuvring you're doing is to rush at the enemy and turn in the last hex. But if you want to actually move after that turn, good luck.
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ghostrider
04/25/16 07:00 PM
66.74.61.223
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Isn't that what hit and run is? Rush up, fire and flee for a short while?
Rinse and repeat.
The chance to sideslip into forbidden terrain is a risk but not that great of one. If you are not smart enough to avoid dangerous terrain by a decent margin, they maybe hovers aren't something to use.
With the cruise speed, it still runs or tops flank speed for the tracked unit.
Now you would not love to run up into medium/short range with an lrm 20, and get back out to avoid return fire? The lack of turret is a small issue, but that was comparing same tonnage units. You could go with more appropriate weapons or just circle at distance and pepper the target. Hell, just backing up at a speed of 8 is enough for most units. +1 to hit the enemy and +4 to be hit. That alone would make it worth it.
And if you wanted to, you could use the 20 pack in a saracen or scimitar. The brothers/sisters of the saladin. Granted, to keep full armor you would have to drop the useless flamer. Or switch to fusion.
Now with your argument of not having the weapons in a turret, what good with the ml on the manticore hover be? Done right the srm pack is a waste. Stay at medium range for lrms/ppc and go at it. Circle the enemy or do the strafes. I would think between the 2 tanks, the hover would win without the ml and with less armor. But terrain would be a factor in it.
Looks like HMV might have an issue with figuring out things right. The manticore has 15 tons of weapons in a single ton turret. It should be 1.5 tons. With the vedette one, there was not lift system at all.
Not sure if typos or an actual issue with program.
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Akalabeth
04/25/16 07:28 PM
64.251.81.66
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8 movement isn't a +4
Any single hit on a hovercraft has a 30% chance of reducing its movement by at least 1MP. This will also increase it's driver skill by +2 (as all motive hits do). Turning at flank will quickly become very difficult assuming that the hovercraft isn't immobilized outright.
Whereas a tracked tank will have movement for longer and has the benefit of being able to carry more weapons and armour.
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Karagin
04/25/16 07:50 PM
61.40.222.5
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ALL vehicles suffer a movement reduction given how the to hit table is stacked against them, so hover craft are not alone in that regard.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/25/16 09:36 PM
66.74.61.223
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Hovers are more screwed then other vehicles with movement crits. An extra spot on the table more.
I misread the table. the +4 is for 10 or high movement. So maxed out works. Got it mixed up with jumping spiders.
Now here's a question. Why would you turn at flank speed?
Strafe, get away, slow down and turn around.
Ok. So one hit makes the hover 7/11. Your tracked unit goes to 4/6 if it was 5/8. Who is more likely to be hit the next round?
And lets see. I can get in range, fire, and get out alot easier then you can. And done right, by keeping course, back out. Hell the movement at cruise is tracked flank speed so there is another penalty to hit.
And you want to do the crit thing, In a hover, even if both turrets are locked, I can maneuver around your tank and blast you were you can't fire at.
But with any hit, engine destruction is possible.
And now you know why I have stated crits for vehicles is bs.
With them, armor isn't as big a factor as they are with mechs. Important, yes, but not getting hit is more important.
And with one the minimum weight as well as the lift equipment, the battle is more weighted to the hovers side.
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Akalabeth
04/25/16 09:53 PM
64.251.81.66
|
Quote:
Karagin writes:
ALL vehicles suffer a movement reduction given how the to hit table is stacked against them, so hover craft are not alone in that regard.
Tracked vehicles only have a 15% chance of an MP reduction from motive hits and generally don't care about driver hits. Some people even cheese out and get drivers with skill 7
Wheeled Vehicles have a 26% chance and Hover Vehicles 30% chance.
So Tracked vehicles are half as likely to lose movement than a hover vehicle.
Further Tracked vehicles will only be immobilized from the front 1% of the time from any one hit whereas hover vehicles, will be immobilized 10% of the time. That's a very big difference.
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Now here's a question. Why would you turn at flank speed?
You know a lot of maps with 10-12 hexes of clear straight terrain in a row?
Take a look at this map. Imagine you're an 8/12 hovertank on the field and facing an opponent. Now move flank speed, then next turn, move flank speed again, and again after that, try to do it while only turning on the start or end of a turn and while maintaining the +4 modifier for 10 hexes of movement
The only place there's really room to manoeuvre is on the left side. You can try to do circles around the lake but at some point you're going to be doing a mid-turn move.
Now try to run circles around you opponent on this map:
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Karagin
04/26/16 12:41 AM
61.40.222.5
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Akalbeth has it ever accrued to you that you could be less condescending in your replies back to folks? Noticing that not matter what is said you act as if you are the only one who understands the rules or the mechanics of the game and nothing anyone else, wait I take that back, nothing anyone who disagrees with you says you then take it as a challenge to educate all of us on the game, now this is just an observation based the last few replies made by you and are my own view on that matter.
Now my point, in case you missed it, which clearly you did, was simple, ALL vehicles suffer movement related restrictions based on how skewed the to hit chart is for vehicles, that is a fact, not an argument or anything else, so what again are you trying to prove or disprove about this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/26/16 01:43 AM
66.74.61.223
|
If the hit location table is the same one that has been in use since city tech, how is it tracked vehicles have less chance of a move crit then a wheeled unit? They have the same numbers for the damage location. I do know the hover has one more spot on tables.
And since this issue started with the old rule set, there is NO difference in full disabled hits from a front shot, and with that, you can not hit the sides. That has changed, but this issue was from the start of vehicles, not just popped up.
With the maps, I can get some that have the open fields. Your tracked unit has so much more difficulty moving thru those areas on both maps, but the second would kill it.
And how about this. Use a full set of maps you would playing a game. A single map sheet is arena style play.
If you play with a single map set, I can understand why there is issues with game styles others use.
The only issue with those maps is you do lose some speed. But last I knew, vehicles can climb and descend hills that are 1 elevation different.
The only issue I can see is a lack of turret, but then no one says you have to make a run ever other round.
The second map set is a jumpers paradise. It shows alot about play style. With that map in effect, I can see why having sensors and the ability to for units to go dark is scary. Nothing like having your back to an srm carrier or demolisher.
And I see why you want the vehicle crits to remain high. The range of fire is so limited it only makes sense to use the short range heavy hitters. The ones with armor factors almost better then mechs. Without the crits, player run units would die alot more.
What started this round was the question of if the developers had looked at other options for hovers then the overpowering suspension factors they went with.
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Akalabeth
04/26/16 04:24 AM
108.180.183.124
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Now my point, in case you missed it, which clearly you did, was simple, ALL vehicles suffer movement related restrictions based on how skewed the to hit chart is for vehicles, that is a fact, not an argument or anything else, so what again are you trying to prove or disprove about this?
The context of this discussion is that I'm calling into question ghostrider's continual complaints against the 'unfair advantages' (paraphrasing) that he believes hovercraft receive in comparison to tracked vehicles. In my post immediately preceding yours, I was drawing attention to the fact that hover vehicles are more susceptible to motive damage. Your statement that "all vehicles suffer" is from my point of view an attempt to minimize and dismiss that distinction. I replied to you with raw numbers to illustrate that the distinction exists and is worthwhile discussing.
If that's not the intent of your post then feel free to correct me.
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
If the hit location table is the same one that has been in use since city tech, how is it tracked vehicles have less chance of a move crit then a wheeled unit?
As far as I know it's not the same. In Total Warfare . . .
Vehicles suffer potential motive hits on 3,4,5, or 9. 36% chance
MP is lost on a 2d6 roll of 8 or above
Motive hits against hovercraft get +3 to their roll
Thus a tracked vehicle suffers MP loss on 8 or above (41.6% x 36% = 15 percent)
And a hover vehicle suffers MP loss on a 5 or above (5 + 3 for hovers = 8). (83% x 36% = 30 percent)
41.6% is the odds of a 8 or more roll. 36% chance is the odds of getting a motive hit result
83% chance is the odds of 5 or more
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Karagin
04/26/16 06:28 AM
61.40.222.5
|
Okay let me try again, do vehicles suffer a higher chance of mobility loss vs mechs? The answer is YES.
Now does the to hit table make this more then likely for vehicles, using the to hit table for them, YES.
So if ALL but the VTOL, which have their rotor hits as their biggest issues, suffer from same over all issues then breaking t down as you are is not disproving Ghostrider and actually showing one of the largest errors and issues with vehicles in the game.
So again the statement I made is still true, wheel, tracked and hovers all suffer mobility hits that cripple them and thus render any speed advantage they have void.
Doesn't matter which rule set or era you are playing, all the charts still have the same issue, side hits and lower rolls cripple vehicles with ease.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/26/16 12:27 PM
66.74.61.223
|
Looks like understand what is written is being an issue here.
I didn't ask why hovers had a better chance at have move crit against them, I asked, how Wheeled vehicles weren't equaled to tracked vehicles in the percentage.
How is tracked 15% while wheeled is 26% if they have the same numbers for movement crits?
Remember Karagin. The argument for lowering the chance for crits was debated. This is what led to the argument of the new rules, which dropped the crits some, but nothing like a mechs idea. But this is a recap of another argument.
Back to this concept.
As for the original question that was morphed into this, the answer is no. They do not know why the developers stuck with the high suspension factor.
But being as you (karagin) do use hmv, could you run the numbers for the scorpion and manticore hovers. I would like to know if the missing information is from hmv or someone just didn't transfer them correctly. If it is an issue with hmv, then you can relay that to the developer of that program.
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Karagin
04/26/16 05:42 PM
61.40.222.5
|
Code: BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Manticore Heavy Tank
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Hovercraft
Rules: Level 1-FA, Standard design
Mass: 50 tons
Power Plant: 10 Pitban Fusion
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor Type: ArcShield Maxi II Standard
Armament:
1 Parti-Kill Heavy Cannon PPC
1 LRM 5
1 SRM 6
1 Machine Gun
Manufacturer: TechniCorp
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: O/P R Janxiir
Targeting & Tracking System: TargiTrack 717
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
The Manticore is one of the best-designed and powerful tanks ever
created. The vehicle is most commonly seen among the forces of Houses Steiner
and Kurita, though the tank also sees service among the armies of the other
three Houses.
Although the Manticore mounts a variety of weapons and is heavily armored
for a vehicle of its weight, it is not equipped to deal with super-heavy
vehicles such as the Demolisher or the Behemoth. The tank was simply not
designed to be a stand-up fighter.
==Capabilities:==
Mounting a large variety of weapon systems, the Manticore is capable of
handling almost any combat situation. Because it is so useful, the Manticore
is one of the few fusion-powered vehicles whose power plant has not been
appropriated to supply 'Mech forces.
The tank's main weapon is the Parti-Kill PPC. Unlike other particle
cannons, the Parti-Kill does not use an energy collection capacitor or similar
chamber. Instead, it uses a series of magnetic collection bottles that gather
their energy straight from the fusion reactor. These energies are then
channeled through a larger magnetic bottle and released from the cannon. This
fires an energy "shell" that loses cohesion and disintegrates at 540 meters.
The Parti-Kill's bolts are unstable at ranges under 90 meters.
The Manticore's next main weapon is its SureShot Mk VI SRM rack. The
weapon is mounted on top of the main turret, just above and behind the
particle cannon. It is mounted on vertical and horizontal swivel mounts,
giving the pack a full 120-degree arc of fire independent of the turret.
The Manticore is capable of indirect fire with its Far Fire Medium
Missile Rack. Like most long-range missile units, the Manticore's missiles are
patched through a complex series of fire-control systems that can track
targets over any type terrain. The TargiTrack 717 Targeting System gives the
tank the ability to combine its fire simultaneously with other missile units
to maximize the effectiveness of a missile strike against a particular
target.
==Battle History:==
The Manticore has proven itself to be a tough fighting vehicle, even
against superior odds. On one of the many battles for the planet Morningside,
a unit of invading Kurita BattleMechs was intercepted by a small Steiner
Manticore force. The Steiner troops knew the surrounding terrain better than
the invading forces, but the Kurita unit was better equipped.
The battle started out as a meeting engagement between the two sides. The
Manticores fired on the 'Mechs with their PPCs and long-range missiles.
Momentarily shaken, the Kurita forces staged a withdrawal. Moments later,
however, the Kurita'Mechs had regrouped and turned back to fight the tanks.
Three Steiner 'Mechs and over ten tanks were destroyed in this first
engagement.
Both sides staged a momentary retreat, and then moved back into fighting
positions. This time the Steiner defense forces were more wary of the Kurita
'Mechs, and used their long-range missiles for indirect fire instead of trying
to move in close for an attack with the shorter-range weapons. Most of this
fire was concentrated on the Kurita long-range firepower 'Mechs, such as
Archers and Trebuchets. At the end of this second engagement, the Kurita
forces had lost six 'Mechs and the Steiner forces had lost only five
Manticores.
Seeing that they could no longer rely on long-range firepower, the Kurita
forces moved in as quickly as possible and attacked the Steiner Manticores.
This was the most effective tactic against the defending units because it
prevented them from bringing the power of their main gun to bear on the close
targets. Although eight 'Mechs were destroyed, the Steiner forces lost over 20
tanks.
Luckily for the remaining Manticore units, the Kurita commander
considered his losses were too high to continue the fight, even though he had
severely crippled the Steiner defenders. The Kuritans pulled back and left the
planet.
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Manticore Heavy Tank
Mass: 50 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 25 pts Standard 0 5.00
Engine: 10 Fusion 0 6.67
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 3.33
Cruise MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.50
Crew: 4 Members 0 .00
Lift Equipment: 0 5.00
Turret Equipment: 0 1.20
Armor Factor: 176 pts Standard 0 11.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 5 42
Left / Right Sides: 5 33/33
Rear: 5 26
Turret: 5 42
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 PPC Turret 10 1 7.00
1 LRM 5 Turret 0 24 2 3.00
1 SRM 6 Turret 0 15 2 4.00
1 Machine Gun Front 0 100 2 1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 7 49.70
Items & Tons Left: 8 .30
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 1,393,667 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 763 (old BV = 470)
Cost per BV: 1,826.56
Weapon Value: 623 / 623 (Ratio = .82 / .82)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 16; MRDmg = 10; LRDmg = 4
BattleForce2: MP: 4H, Armor/Structure: 0 / 7
Damage PB/M/L: 2/2/1, Overheat: 0
Class: GM; Point Value: 8
ONLY changes was to make it legal and adjust the weapons, CORE weapons of the tank are still there, and there is left over tonnage, nothing else changed.
Code: BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Vedetta Medium Tank
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Hovercraft
Rules: Level 1-FA, Standard design
Mass: 50 tons
Power Plant: 15 Locom-Pack InterComBust I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Armor Type: ProtecTech 6 Standard
Armament:
1 Armstrong J11 Autocannon/5
1 Scatter Gun Light Machine Gun
Manufacturer: New Earth Trading Company
Location: New Earth
Communications System: ComStar Rover
Targeting & Tracking System: ComStar Test-2
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
The Vedette is one of the only vehicles produced by the New Earth Trading
Company. During the time that New Earth was researching robotics, another
section of the company started producing military vehicles. The Vedette was
the first and most popular of these vehicles.
The Vedette is a standard unit of "measure" among military crews. For
example, most vehicle crewmen will ask of a new tank, "How many Vedettes do
you figure that thing is equal to?" The Vedette has become a standard because
it is a simple but effective vehicle. Mounting only one main weapon and one
secondary weapon, the Vedette is considered to be a "typical" tank.
==Capabilities:==
Unlike many modern military vehicles, the Vedette mounts only one main
weapon. This does not make it a less effective vehicle than a newer tank, but
does reduce its ability to deal with a wide variety of targets. By contrast,
the very popular Manticore tank has a weapon for every combat range, which
makes it able to effectively engage targets anywhere on the battlefield.
The tank's main weapon is the Armstrong J11 AutoCannon (identical to the
one mounted on the Shadow Hawk). The New Earth Trading Corporation chose this
weapon because it is the most weight-efficient, has excellent long-range
capability, and is easy to replace. The designers did try other weapons such
as lasers and PPCs, but these did not fit well on the Vedette's chassis and
required heat sinks and power amplifiers, which the tank's size could not
carry.
The ScatterGun is a small-caliber machine gun mounted in the bow of the
tank in a mini-ball turret, giving the driver an excellent arc of fire. The
ScatterGun fires shells at very high velocity, which compensates for its small
caliber.
The Vedette's main selling point is its speed, which is fast even for a
medium tank. Most tank manufacturers ignore high speed for vehicles over 35
tons, because 150+ rated engines are very inefficient. The Vedette can use its
speed to great effect by moving into optimum autocannon range, opening fire,
and then retreating as fast as possible to another fire position. Most modern
tanks, especially medium to heavy, do not use mobility as their main defense.
They rely on heavy armor and firepower to win the battle.
The Vedette's communication and tracking systems are ComStar originals.
These were developed especially for the New Earth Trading Corporation in
return for certain favors, such as food and supplies. Unlike normal ComStar
equipment, these two systems have repair and service manuals available.
==Battle History:==
One of the battles that has earned 'Mechs their reputations as lords of
the battlefield occurred at the Battle of Merak in Marik space. There was a
civil war going on at the time, and several companies of vehicles squared off
against an equal number of 'Mechs. There were more Vedettes than any other
vehicle, and there were more 50 ton 'Mechs than any other type. Strictly on a
tonnage basis, the battle was even.
The two sides moved into position inside one of Merak's major cities, but
fighting did not break out until both sides had surrounded several units of
the other's forces Again, the battle was even.
Combat was heavy, and both sides were taking heavy casualties. With
superior maneuverability and firepower on the side of the 'Mechs, they
eventually began to overcome the vehicle-equipped forces. Once the 'Mech
forces had numerical superiority over the ground units, the balance of power
quickly shifted and the 'Mechs totally succeeded in destroying every tank
around.
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Vedetta Medium Tank
Mass: 50 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 25 pts Standard 0 5.00
Engine: 15 I.C.E. 0 10.00
Cruise MP: 5
Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks: 0 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.50
Crew: 4 Members 0 .00
Lift Equipment: 0 5.00
Turret Equipment: 0 .80
Armor Factor: 96 pts Standard 0 6.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 5 20
Left / Right Sides: 5 18/18
Rear: 5 20
Turret: 5 20
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Autocannon/5 Turret 0 20 2 9.00
1 Machine Gun Front 0 100 2 1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 0 4 39.30
Items & Tons Left: 11 10.70
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 773,000 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 403 (old BV = 200)
Cost per BV: 1,918.11
Weapon Value: 96 / 96 (Ratio = .24 / .24)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 5; MRDmg = 3; LRDmg = 1
BattleForce2: MP: 5H, Armor/Structure: 0 / 4
Damage PB/M/L: 1/1/1, Overheat: 0
Class: GM; Point Value: 4
THIS one has almost 11 tons left to play with so I could see an upgrade in the AC or more speed if that is what you like for this one.
So there are the stats for both ran through HMV and given that, one needed weapons adjustments to be legal under the rules, so by doing so and pick the Manticore was a bad call since the tank as a tracked vehicle was already 10 tons heavier then a combat hover is allowed and since the topic at hand doesn't include the support vehicle rules...well yeah yall need to pick better apples and oranges to compare.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/26/16 09:05 PM
66.74.61.223
|
So the export program doesn't have any issues.
So the manticore using the suspension factor used loses the front ml and 3 extra sinks, as well as down grades the lrm 10 to a 5, with an mg added.
I was off a little with suggesting the manticore could be made into a hover as is. Ok. I will accept that.
I would have dropped the srm down some to keep the lrms at size, but this does show how over balanced the suspension factor is. A tank 10 tons heavier almost fits in the 50 ton hover frame.
And the 165 fusion engine would still work as it is 6 tons for engine, 3 for shielding, making it 8/12.
Not exact but definitely nothing to scoff about.
The vedette, well, I do admit I hated that tank for being crappy, but this shows just how screwed up this is.
The speed of the manticores hover drops dramatically, yet still fits the 20% rule.
How did this stop a nasty tank from being made?
And this shows fusion engines in hovers do not help stop this.
I do wonder if hmv should do something to tell the user that a larger engine will work in the given hover. You may want to pass that along so the developer can look into it.
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Cray
04/27/16 05:31 PM
72.189.109.30
|
This might sound like an odd reason to close a thread, but this one is getting a bit big to skim through - Sarna's threaded view breaks down over 100 posts. For me. Chalk it up to lazy mod syndrome.
Anyway, feel free to carry on the conversation in a new thread.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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