wolf_lord_30
03/03/15 05:58 PM
166.216.165.93
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Posting here to avoid threadjacking the banshee upgrade on the designs.
Autocannons have their uses. One being decent range, at least for those under the 20, and two, barely any heat buildup. Whereas a PPC costs 10 heat 15 for the ER version. 8 for a large laser and 12 for the ER. This is fine of you have the heat sinks, but when you arm your mech to the max with laser weapons, heat becomes an issue.
Yes, ac5s may be heavy and you can have 9 medium laser in place of an ac5 and its ammo, but then you lose range and you better have a lot of heat sinks for those 9 medium lasers.
I am only comparing the ac5 to the medium laser because of the 5 points of damage.
AC10 to the PPC, has a little less range, but 7 less points of heat. Weighs 5 more tons and takes up 4 more critical, but you don't need heat sinks for it the same. And it doesn't have a minimum range.
Then there is the raw power of the ac20.
But let's not talk about ammo explosions. I am just saying autocannons are not worthless.
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Retry
03/03/15 07:46 PM
76.7.225.145
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You should compare weapons with similar range brackets.
AC5 vs PPC:
8 vs 7 tons
4 vs 3 crits
5 vs 10 damage
1 vs 10 heat
The PPC massively outdamages the AC5 and is lighter. They're easier to fit on a smaller chassis, being more compact and lighter, and the heatsink equivalence tonnage of a PPC is still superior to two AC/5s which has equal damage to a PPC. This is before factoring in ammunition issues.
The PPC, overall, outclasses the AC5
AC10 vs LL:
12 vs 5 tons
7 vs 2 crits
10 vs 8 damage
3 vs 8 heat
Only the AC/5 and AC/2 have "barely any heat buildup". The large laser has only slightly less damage which mostly matters in the case of headshots where the AC10 has a free crit chance. The Large Laser can be fit easier on a smaller chassis, being more compact and lighter. The heatsink equivalence tonnage of a Large Laser is the same as an AC/10 with ammo, without considering it's own heatsink equivalence. It doesn't explode, and it's heat sinks can be used as a crit soaking tool. It doesn't have explosive ammunition.
The Large Laser, overall, is roughly equal to the AC10 in a short fight, and better than the AC10 in an extended fight.
AC20 vs ML:
14 vs 1 ton
10 vs 1 crit
20 vs 5 damage
7 vs 3 heat
The AC/20 doesn't produce barely any heat, even when considering it's damage potential. The LRM20 produces less heat than the AC20, and it gets even worse with the UAC20 that can generate 16 heat on a doubletap, more than an ER PPC. The ML has a heatsink equivalence of 4, versus the AC20's of 21 before accounting for ammunition. At least 5 MLs can be fitted onto a mech for the price of one AC20, that's 5x5 damage versus 20. The AC20's primary advantage lies in it's headcapping ability, but the lasers have a higher chance of hitting at least once, including the head, and will on average deal more damage without having to rely on ammunition. The ML can also be fit on much smaller mechs than the AC20, being 14 times lighter and 10 times smaller BEFORE factoring in ammunition.
The medium laser is, overall, superior to the AC20.
Useless? No. Effectively obsolete when compared to contemporary weapons? Yep.
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TigerShark
03/03/15 08:21 PM
12.130.166.32
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It's one reason Rapid Fire should be a default rule for all games. The standard ACs are just so badly outclassed by lasers it's ridiculous.
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wolf_lord_30
03/03/15 09:14 PM
166.216.165.93
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When you're saying the medium laser is superior to the ac20, just remember that when your ct gets punched through, hits the engine and topples you over for taking 20 damage and only 3 out of your five medium lasers hit and you're up 6 on the heat scale.
Comparing the heat of the ac 20 to a lrm, fine, but most of the time, you wont get a full 20 missiles hit. Comparing it back to the medium laser, 4 medium lasers produce 12 heat to the 7 of the ac20. You have more chances to hit the head IF you hit with all 4, and the damage is spread out. Acceptable if the enemy is damaged and can get critical, not for really damaging that Mauler in front of you.
Now I thought about arguing about the uses for the ac10 and ac5 some more. But then I flipped through the 3050 record sheets and realized the mechs in there don't have those weapons anymore. The lb 10-x is not the same as an ac 10. Ac 5 ultra is not an ac 5.
Hard to argue my point anymore when FASA did away with it themselves. But I'll try anyway. 
However, laser boats such as the crab, black knight, and black hawk, even though they don't rely on any ammo, heat is a major problem if you try to fire everything at once. But if you have an ac 10 instead of a large laser mixed in with your energy weapons, you can still shoot everything without overheating the same. Yes ammo can be an issue, but for several turns, you can shoot with more weapons than the other guy armed only with lasers.
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Retry
03/03/15 10:38 PM
76.7.225.145
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What's that? I can't hear you over the sound of my dry AC/20
*click* *click*
Ow8 ;D
Rayman
IS TW non-box set
35 tons
BV: 1,254
Cost: 5,972,760 C-bills
Movement: 7/11/7
Engine: 245 XL
Double Heat Sinks: 13 [26]
Gyro: Standard Gyro
Internal: 58 (Endo-Steel)
Armor: 119/119
Internal Armor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 17
Center Torso (rear) 5
Right Torso 8 13
Right Torso (rear) 3
Left Torso 8 13
Left Torso (rear) 3
Right Arm 6 12
Left Arm 6 12
Right Leg 8 16
Left Leg 8 16
Weapons Loc Heat
Medium Laser LT 3
Medium Laser RT 3
Medium Laser RT 3
Medium Laser LT 3
Medium Laser CT 3
Medium Laser HD 3
ER Flamer LA 4
An alpha strike with these medium lasers will deal more damage on average than even a UAC/20 on double tap mode. For pure DPS, you want medium lasers. AC/20s are more situational, for penetrating the armor with (preferably) one shot and maybe ripping off a limb easily. The only problem is that the mechs that are light enough to have that happen are often very nimble, enough to create high to-hit numbers... just like this Rayman.
----
Crab CRB-20
Poorly designed, it shouldn't really need more than it's two large lasers. It's not something inherent to a laser flaw itself, and definitely not something you can rectify by adding an autocannon, seeing as the lightest of them is heavier than the heaviest weapon installed. The ML and SL are nothing but alpha striking meat. You can shove those off for 1.5 tons of armor, and it's basically the same mech without the pseudo heating issues.
Black Knight BL-7-KNT-L
Similar thing. Replace the small guns by maxing armor and add a heat sink to eliminate most issues with heat and make the Black Knight far more durable and with a little bit more useable firepower.
Black Hawk (Standard)
You're talking about the clan mech right? It's primary issue isn't heat, it's armor protection and overstocked explosive ammunition for it's streak launchers. Change to clan FF armor for protection, replace two tons of ammo(the remaining 2 tons will be plenty) for 2 DHS in the torsos to crit sink, and you have a much better 'Mech that even reduces the heat problem as a secondary advantage. And yes, the Black Hawk can fit all of these modifications with 4 crit slots to spare.
And I challenge you to find a way to install an AC/10 in any of these to improve them compared to the modifications that I have described.
There's a reason why when you have a heavy autocannon, it's generally your only big gun. Not true when you have PPCs or lasers in the equation.
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wolf_lord_30
03/03/15 10:57 PM
166.216.165.93
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The black hawk prime has 12 ER medium lasers. It's primary issues is heat.
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Retry
03/03/15 11:12 PM
76.7.225.145
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You mean the Nova.(Clan mech's clan designation)
Again, an easily rectified design flaw. Take off 4 ER lasers, add 2 DHS, gives you a useable firepower of potentially two 28 damage batteries of ERMLs on a 50 ton chassis. A UAC/20 couldn't manage that on a good day.
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ghostrider
03/03/15 11:37 PM
76.89.120.217
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cannons are too heavy for the benefits. Plus the ammunition runs out on most of them besides the 2 to fast.
The lack of heat is nice, but when you run into the pot shot game, you don't have to much choice but to hold fire. Energy weapons are the only way to go when you do have the high to hit numbers.
And as it was already pointed out, the lrms tend to be a better choice.
They are more likely to hit because of better range, with the exception of the ac 2, which is nothing more then a crit seeker.
The launchers are lighter, which means more ammo for the same weight. They tend to run less heat.
Even the newer models still don't have any great benefits over the other weapons.
The lbx has the better to hit number and is a crit seeker, but without the crits, it would be better to use more of the other weapons. The to hit, well pulse lasers tend to come to mind. The range for inner sphere bites, but I think risking a round of fire to get in closer might be worth the potential of more damage.
If they would do something radical with them, they could be nice, but I don't see that happening. Even the new munitions don't counter the fact they are just too heavy for the less heat.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/03/15 11:58 PM
172.56.7.144
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wolf_lord_30 Yes a AC-20 can do massive amount of damage to the inner structure "IF" you happen to hit "IF" you hit something that has less than 20 points of armor "IF" you have not run out of ammo because anyone that you go up against is not going to give you an easy shot.
For one AC-20 3025 era
The cannon weighs 14 tons
You need at least 2 tons of ammo.
Takes 12 crit locations in the mech
If it is the only weapon the 10 heat sinks a mech comes with covers firing the weapon plus the mech running.
The advantage is it does in one hit that dose massive amount of damage to one location.
Disadvantage your target wont let you get close enough to hit them before you run out of ammo. Limited ammo.
6 Medium Lasers
Lasers weight 6 tons
Needs 10 extra heat sinks for the lasers an to run.
Requires 6 crits plus what heat sinks that cant go in the engine.
The Advantage you have six tries to hit your target and it can keep firing every round until the battle is over.
Disadvantage versus the AC-20 Each hit only does 5 points of damage.
Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (03/04/15 12:00 AM)
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wolf_lord_30
03/04/15 12:20 AM
166.216.165.93
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I am not talking about making modifications to prove your point. Use the mechs that are already made. If you try to shoot off all of the black hawk's lasers, it's you could do some serious hurt, even cripple another mech, but provided you didn't run or jump, you will be at 24 on the heat scale and a good chance you'll shut down. If you didn't kill your intended victim, you will pay for it the next turn.
20 points of damage is superior to 5 points. Plain and simple. Maybe you can hit with more medium lasers, or maybe not. The fact is, even a heavy mech will crumple on one hit with an ac 20, 4 medium lasers can hurt, but spread out over a wide area it's just not the same. And that's not usually the only weapon being fired
And look over the TROs. Ultra ac5s and lb 10-x are mixed in with all sorts of lasers. They do not have to be the only main gun, and gauss rifles too.
If you only want to use lasers, that's fine, but heat is an issue. That will factor into hitting your targets later on and movement. Yes, maybe you can do a lot of damage, but you will pay for it the next turn.
If there was a best weapon, everyone would use it. But there is not. Overall, the ac 20 is better at hammering into an opponent than several medium lasers. It's punch will pierce most armor and blow off smaller limbs.
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Retry
03/04/15 02:50 AM
76.7.225.145
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Why would I use purposely errorful mech designs to prove my point? That's as ridiculous as using the Flea to show that all lights suck, or the Charger to say that all fast assaults suck, or a LRM 20 And don't even get me started on the Rifleman.
I am not talking about making modifications to prove your point. Use the mechs that are already made.
Thing is, with the Nova being an omnimech, I can do just that. It has the pod space, it has the tonnage, I can so modify a variant as I please with omnimech compatible omnipods. Sorry if you don't like me correcting an obvious design flaw that you've tried to hide behind to prove your point, but that's how it's going to be.
And who in their right mind would willingly alpha strike in the Black Hawk, unless they knew they were going to die anyways?
You have compared laser equipped mechs by themselves. You did not compare them against autocannon equivalents, probably because you couldn't even fit an autocannon equivalent effectively on any of the mechs you quoted in the first place. This is a comparative analysis.
20 points of damage is superior to 5 points. But 20 damage is inferior to 5 points. Again, At least 5 MLs can be fitted onto a mech for the price of one AC20, even more so if you factor in free heatsinks.
6 MLs for 10 DHS keeps a running mech heat neutral. They cost 6 tons. 2 MLs with 3 DHS to keep the mech heat neutral gives a new rate of 2 MLs every 5 tons. 10 MLs will cost 16 tons. An AC/20 has 40% of the average damage and is only one ton lighter with an insufficient ammo supply of one ton. To make it at least sufficient requires another ton, making the AC/20 equal to 10 MLs, on average only dealing like 40% of the damage.
What happens if your opponent is REALLY heavily armored, like most assault mechs, and you can't punch through with one shot of an AC/20? Oh, maybe you should have brought that laser battery after all...
Anything small enough for the AC/20 to murderize with a single hit is probably also fast enough to avoid said hit a good majority of the time, meaning wasted ammo on the part of the AC/20. Anything slow enough to be caught by an AC/20 can also probably afford to take a beating and instead retalliate with a heavier counterbombardment with numerous medium lasers, maybe even 10 with double heat sinks. You just can't beat the ML's ruthless efficiency.
If there was a best weapon, everyone would use it
Weapons have had some use without being of much use at all. AC/2? AC/5 even? Them near useless heavy lasers? Blazer cannons? Bombast lasers? Quite a few melee weapons? Small lasers? At it's range bracket, there is simply nothing overall better that the IS has than the AC20. The lasers are more consistent, compact, never run out of ammo, etc. than the AC20. Not a whole lot of non-vee custom designs even use the AC20 anymore, and the designer generally does remark that a mech would be improved with a laser battery instead, but they wanted the AC20 for other purposes like flavor.
Again, heat issues are on a case-by-case basis, whether or not the designers were competent to include adequate heatsinking. Energy weapons =/= design heat issues, as thousands of customs have pointed out. In fact, I even remember one or two particular mechs that had a heat neutral 4 ERPPCs or 6 LPLs, clan chassis, heat neutral.
The Anubis 3T mech can remain heat neutral with proper weapon bracket firing, using either the ERLL or the alternative laser battery. This is all while benefitting from the incredibly useful stealth armor bonuses.
The Arcas 2 also doesn't suffer from significant heat issues. It has 2 cERPPCs and has 5 jump jets.
The Archangel C-ANG-O is an interesting mech, not very useful, but interesting. It has no real heat issues despite mounting a heavy PPC and a plasma rifle. Not that great for an assault mech, but it's some wierd WoB thing I think.
The Arctic Fox AF1A has 4 MPLs that is more accurate or about as accurate as the AC/20 from ranges 2-6. At 7-9 the AC/20 is not likely to get a hit, at all. It also deals 24 damage max compared to the AC/20's 20. Now try this again but with an AC/20 of any model, see where it gets you.
The Awesome 9Q can wield 4 IS PPCs with minimal heat issues, nothing that can't be solved easily by bracket fire every now and then.
The Balius Prime doesn't have many heat issues either.
Freaking Behemoths even. Behemoth 3 has 4 cLPLs that it can fire while running while generating no net heat. Forget the useless ATMs, those alone make it a monster.
The Condor Heavy Hover Tank (laser) is also a good one. Wastes 10 tons on heat sinks for 4 ERMLs, but the entire weapon load is equal to that of a single unloaded AC/20 tonnage wise.
My Epona Prime is a good vehicle killer with a compact load of 4 cMPLs. My Epona E is a good infantry killer with 2 Plasma Cannons and a host of AP gauss rifles. My Epona C brings a long ranged punch with a cERPPC. The worst Epona variant? Undoubtedly the Epona B, with it's UAC10 and 2 SSRM4s just doesn't have the same utility with the weight of it's cannon taking up most of the space the Epona has.
Weapon of choice for the dreaded Savannah Master swarm? Medium Laser. You could probably upgrade it with an XL engine, reflective armor, and an ER medium laser while still keeping a good price. In fact, I think I'll make one now.
One of my favorite tanks, the Manticore, has a PPC main gun, a LRM10, and a SRM6 as it's secondary armaments. There is no way you can stuff an autocannon onto this and call it an improvement.
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wolf_lord_30
03/04/15 09:24 AM
166.216.165.93
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Seriously, what do you concentrate fire on when you have your choice of targets on the field. The victor with try ac 20 out that annoying little hover tank with 1 medium laser? The hunchback with the ac 20 our the Blackjack with 4 medium lasers and and 2'ac 2s? You hit the big guns first because if you don't, you will be asking for trouble.
And I have specific examples of mechs with heat problems, not comparing them to any autocannon, but to show that energy reliant mechs have issues with heat. Such as the phoenix hawk. 1 shot while running with a large laser, puts him at 10 heat, maxed out. Shoot the 2 medium lasers and you're at 6 on the heat scale. Jump for 6 hexes and now you're at 10 on the heat scale. Now you're at -2 mp and a +1 to hit.
An enforcer can shoot it's ac10, large laser, and small laser, and run and only be at 1 on the heat scale. When he jumps for 4, he will be only at +4.
So before you get an attitude and try to shoot down everything I say because apparently neither of us have anything better to do with our time, stop and think about it. We can both find samples to support our cause. True, some mechs can support all energy weapons, I will concede that point. But others will just overheat. And badly. So mechs that have autocannons such as the centurion, and enforcer mix their weapons well to avoid heat.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/04/15 09:42 AM
172.56.17.239
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Yes for some reason the people that came up with what some mechs carried for weapons and the supporting heat sinks are unfathomable and no one has been able to rationally explain it.
That still dose not support in any way your position on auto cannons.
Yes the guy that carries the AC-20 is going to draw a lot of fire early in the battle do to that AC-20 being a big threat. That is another good reason to carry laser batteries than the AC-20. Your not going to be the guy that is going to draw fire in the first round from every mech in the enemies battalion.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
03/04/15 12:31 PM
76.89.120.217
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First the alpha strike. Clan warriors would perform the alpha strike thinking their superior skills will concentrate all of them on one point and destroy their opponents in one volley.
As for the question of what to shoot first. lets make it simple. Given the choice, what would you shoot first?
a. Saladin
b. Saracen
c. Scimitar
Say the shot is the same to hit.
All three tanks are 8/12 move 35 ton hover tanks. Didn't really look at armor values, but I don't think that is really needed to make the point.
Now there IS a reasonable explanation for some mechs comes down to a few things. Canon units are not built to be min/max efficient. If they were, you would have some issues defeating them. Not something that makes the game fun for new players.
Firing the correct weapons at the proper ranges. Having 10 heatsinks in a mech with a ppc and 2 mls. the mls are a better choice at minimum range, but they would be better if the mech is warming up even at short or medium range. A lot of people would fire the ppc in hopes of that hard hitting shot.
The larger cannons make them a little more palatable, but as it has been pointed out a few times. They are too heavy and take up to much space to be usable in mechs. Now vehicles and turrets are a different story, since heat is not a factor for the cannons.
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CarcerKango
03/04/15 02:50 PM
64.251.51.246
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Standard AC's aren't that good, but Rotaries are okay...Light AC's are a bit more fair in tonnage, plus you can get special munitions.
Ultra's? Meh, unless you're using UAC/20's to make a dedicated assault mech hunter...5/8 or better Made one one time to kill Atlases and Imps by taking a 75 ton, 5/8, XL Engine, Endo-Steel, max armor, UAC/20 instead of left arm, four tons ammo, and twin SRM-6's with Artemis and a ton of ammo each..Called it Giantslayer.
LBX's are useful. Especially the 10. Compared to other AC's it's tonnage and heat efficient. Good ammo efficiency (relatively), and comparable range to a PPC, without the minimum. Same damage, plus cluster capabilities, less heat, so weight's saved from heat sinks. It's one of my favorite weapons.
LB2X is good in arrays, a la Jagermech. 20X...fills in the gaps in the AC/20's capabilities, but crit space is an issue, takes up one more crit. AND you can sandpaper 'mechs with it. 5X seems to be the odd gun out, at least to me. I wonder what it could do on light combat vehicles though...critseeking ftw.
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Cray
03/04/15 05:47 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
wolf_lord_30 writes:
When you're saying the medium laser is superior to the ac20, just remember that when your ct gets punched through, hits the engine and topples you over for taking 20 damage and only 3 out of your five medium lasers hit and you're up 6 on the heat scale.
Over a long period of time (multiple games and/or 30+ volleys), an AC/20 will deliver the same damage as 4 medium lasers and vice versa. The same applies for other equal damage, equal target number comparisons: 4 LRM 5s vs 1 LRM 20; 2 light PPCs vs 1 standard PPC; etc.
In the case of the AC/20 vs medium lasers, there is a difference in how the damage arrives. The AC/20 delivers memorable, torso-coring, head-obliterating hits...but it will only hit as often as single medium laser. Four medium lasers, on the other hand, have four times as many chances to hit every turn. Some times that steady sand blasting of smaller weapons is more useful than waiting for the BFG hit, especially when the weapons have shorter ranges - lower range means you have fewer opportunities to use the guns.
Still, the end result averages out to be the same over a long period.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Retry
03/04/15 07:53 PM
76.7.225.145
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Seriously, what do you concentrate fire on when you have your choice of targets on the field. The victor with try ac 20 out that annoying little hover tank with 1 medium laser? The hunchback with the ac 20 our the Blackjack with 4 medium lasers and and 2'ac 2s? You hit the big guns first because if you don't, you will be asking for trouble.
And I have specific examples of mechs with heat problems, not comparing them to any autocannon, but to show that energy reliant mechs have issues with heat. Such as the phoenix hawk. 1 shot while running with a large laser, puts him at 10 heat, maxed out. Shoot the 2 medium lasers and you're at 6 on the heat scale. Jump for 6 hexes and now you're at 10 on the heat scale. Now you're at -2 mp and a +1 to hit.
An enforcer can shoot it's ac10, large laser, and small laser, and run and only be at 1 on the heat scale. When he jumps for 4, he will be only at +4.
So before you get an attitude and try to shoot down everything I say because apparently neither of us have anything better to do with our time, stop and think about it. We can both find samples to support our cause. True, some mechs can support all energy weapons, I will concede that point. But others will just overheat. And badly. So mechs that have autocannons such as the centurion, and enforcer mix their weapons well to avoid heat.
Your grammar is errant, and your examples are... not good.
Obviously the Victor would be a primary target compared to a Savannah Master, not only because of it's armament but because the hovercraft would be very difficult to hit. A heavy mech, in general, will be an easier target with heavier armaments than lighter stuff regardless whether or not it totes an AC/20 or not.
A better example lies in Hunchback variants. Would I focus on a 4G hunchback, the classic AC/20 toter with exhaustible ammunition, or the 4P hunchback, with an ontos array of medium laser with enough heat sinks to fire 7 at once while running or bracket firing 8/8/7 while standing still? The 4P hunchback is more dangerous and will stay dangerous as long as it's alive. The 4G remains kind of dangerous but is also a more flashy target with a big gun with exploding ammunition, and even with it's additional 2 medium lasers to complement it, it can't fire all of them without generating some heat if it so much as walks.
You did not show that energy reliant mechs have heat problems. You have shown that poorly designed mechs with energy weapons have heat problems. Poorly designed mechs with heavier autocannons(esp lv1 AC/20 or higher tech UAC/20) will have the same problem. The King Crab can't even run and fire it's autocannon without generating heat, let alone it's large laser and LRM. In fact, I gave around half a dozen examples of energy dependent mechs that do not have any real heat issues. These are canon designs, and there's thousands of other customs that do the same thing, often better.
If you have the space for an autocannon, you have the space for energy weapons and heat sinks to fire them. It's that simple.
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ghostrider
03/04/15 09:07 PM
76.89.120.217
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Now how about an answer to the hover craft preference?
Which would you target first?
This does put the known ac 20 carriers at more risk as everyone and their brother targets it, but the sheer threat of having a body part removed from a single hit does put fear into anyone facing one.
Or take this one more. Do you shoot the victor or the demolisher that in hull downed ready to remove 2 body parts?
Now threat alone does not make a unit great. But in your battles with multiple units, you will have to get in close to deal with lrm carriers as they pummel your forces. Are you going to rush the ac 20 unit, or something that has multiple lasers?
Now answer why the 20 carrier is more likely then the multiple lasers.
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wolf_lord_30
03/04/15 09:23 PM
166.216.165.93
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Okay, enough. You obviously will not listen to anything I say. You have made up your mind and nothing I can do or show you will change your mind. Fine. But attacking my grammar because I misspelled a couple of words? I am typing on a phone and don't always proofread close enough. Now you're just sounding like an angry fool.
The original point of the post was to talk about how autocannons had their uses, such as range and less heat than lasers. Not to say that they were better than lasers. The ac 20 was originally brought up because no other weapon mounted on a mech that I can think of does that much damage in one location. Yet instead of a nice discussion, it has turned into an argument that no one can win.
I will not respond to any other posts on this thread, so let me part ways by giving this last jab. In all my years of experience, I have had no tremendous problems with autocannons. Maybe you hate them so much because you have never learned how to use them properly. In the right hands and in the right era, regular autocannons can be very dangerous, same as a PPC or large laser.
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Akalabeth
03/04/15 09:32 PM
64.251.81.66
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People don't like autocannons because they've crunched the numbers. But with BV2 it doesn't really matter because you simply pay for the effectiveness. If a mech has a ton of ML or one AC/20 the cost will be reflected in that.
AC/20 is a fearsome weapon because it delivers all the damage to one spot and it will force a PSR. An AC/20 can be completely useless if it consistently misses but it can help turn the tide if you hit the right location.
If a heavy mech's RT is open for example and you hit it with an AC/20, you're laughing. Because the mech is either dead (XL) or has lost half its weapons. If you hit that same mech with 4 ML and one laser hits the RT, you're happy but the mech still probably has its torso. Being able to concentrate damage is a tremendous advantage and can be the difference between winning and losing.
I like autocannons for the simple fact that I like marking ammunition. Running out of a resource over the course of a battle helps add to the tension and excitement of a fight.
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Retry
03/04/15 11:23 PM
76.7.225.145
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Okay, enough. You obviously will not listen to anything I say. You have made up your mind and nothing I can do or show you will change your mind.
Show? You up for a few rounds of MM then?
But attacking my grammar because I misspelled a couple of words? I am typing on a phone and don't always proofread close enough. Now you're just sounding like an angry fool.
I had to read your first paragraph twice, and I still only have a hint of understanding of what you're trying to communicate. There's misspelling a couple of words, and then there's that nearly incomprehensible train wreck. Take a couple lessons:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc
The original point of the post was to talk about how autocannons had their uses, such as range and less heat than lasers.
And they do, but that doesn't make them any less obsolete as a weapon system because there's quite a few pieces of equipment even in LV1 tech that does their job, only much better. Similarly, an obsolete WWII Sherman may also have its "uses" in a war-waging third world country...
such as range and less heat than lasers.
Unless you perform the comparison procedure correctly, which I have tried to do and you apparently have troubles comprehending, in which case there will not be a range advantage for any of the autocannons to comparable energy weapons with the exception of, amusingly enough, the AC/2. Then all you got is less heat for more crit slots and weight, meaning less space for heat sinks and other goodies.
The ac 20 was originally brought up because no other weapon mounted on a mech that I can think of does that much damage in one location. Yet instead of a nice discussion, it has turned into an argument that no one can win.
The HG and iHG both deal more than the AC20 to one location. Although they're slightly more weighty they still make less heat and have more range, albeit with a minimum. The discussion has already been "won" years, if not decades ago. This little particular arguement is only one in probably hundreds over the effectiveness and usefulness of autocannons, the entire time the supporters of the autocannon have had an uphill battle to begin with.
In all my years of experience, I have had no tremendous problems with autocannons.
On canon vs canon, not really, as most of the energy or missile boats have enough flaws to make autocannon users useful. Have you tried to make custom mechs though? The autocannon's crit slot and tonnage requirements are murderous.
Maybe you hate them so much because you have never learned how to use them properly.
I've used autocannons plenty. I'm effective at wielding all sorts of weapons. PPCs, lasers, autocannons, gauss rifles, LRMs of all sorts of varieties, SRMs of all varieties, even Thunderbolt launchers, some MRM launchers, more exotic weapons like the Re-Engineered laser and iATM, TSEMPs, Snub Nose PPCs, MMLs, X-Pulses, ER Pulses, Flamers, HFlamers, ERFlamers, VSP lasers, dabbled in Blazers, HVACs of all things, LACs, HAGs, Silver Bullet Gauss, Heavy Gauss, Light Gauss, AP Gauss, Rifle Cannons, Rotaries, Artillery pieces, Artillery cannons, Mech Mortars, Narc Beacons, and I'm also pretty well versed in designing mechs with rare technologies such as stealth systems and partial wing. The only thing I *hate* about autocannons is how they get continuously shafted in comparison to every other weapon in existence.
In the right hands and in the right era, regular autocannons can be very dangerous, same as a PPC or large laser.
As can almost every other weapon system in existence. So what? Merely being dangerous if it hits a sweet spot doesn't make a weapon system any good. Case in point:Re-Engineered Lasers
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ghostrider
03/05/15 04:56 AM
76.89.120.217
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Ok. I can see where one issue has come up. The use of higher technology from later printings of the game. Stop using starleague and clan era and beyond weapons when talking about the weapons varsatility.
We know cannons have issues the designers haven't been able to over come. I really thought cannons were crap in the 3025 era because of weight vs damage issues.
But the fact is, they do have some advantages.
Retry. Your argument of having an extra heat sink in a unit that normally ran cool except on hot worlds would be a good example of where a cannon is better then a laser. With a standard heat sink load, the cannon is less likely to cause over heating then a laser would.
Ammo explosion is more possible, but not as likely as an over heat.
And energy weapons do not mean an automatic hit either. You have more chance of hitting with something when rolling 4 times vs once, But even if you hit with all 4, there is a very good chance it will be scattered.
Most agree the cannons are not very efficient compared to energy weapons. But they do have their place.
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Akalabeth
03/05/15 03:01 PM
64.251.81.66
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Trying to disprove the usefulness of autocannons in general by comparison to a Medium Laser is intellectually dishonest in my opinion because the Medium Laser is the single most effective weapon in the entire game.
Compare ANY weapon to the Medium Laser and that weapon will lose.
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Retry
03/05/15 06:16 PM
76.7.225.145
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Assuming a mech is designed to alpha strike yet remain heat neutral, the laser boat will be superior in extremely hot environments. An autocannon boat(Not that they're common) will have less heat sinks and will be impacted by one extra heat point more than a laser boat that has a lot of heat sinks in the first place.
Example:Theoretical Lv1 mechs, 100 tonners
Mech 1 has 2 AC/20s, 15 heat sinks.
Mech 2 is identical but has 10 MLs and 30 heat sinks.
Ignore firepower and only pay attention to heat outputs.
A super hot environment that adds +5 heat per turn will effectively make the Mech 1 a 10 SHS mech, which has troubles using it's 2 AC/20s even when volley firing. For Mech 2, it becomes a 25 SHS mech which can still use 80% of it's armament. This is before you consider the probably popular heat-inflicting weapons being deployed around there such as Plasma Cannons, Rifles, Inferno SRMs and Flamers which makes the situation worse.
----
The medium laser is an excellent weapon for it's range bracket, and is ruthlessly efficient, but there's no such thing as a "best" weapon for every circumstance. Hence the existence of PPCs, pulse lasers, and gauss rifles that make for better, high range and high damage ranged guns that can snipe off a ML boat or Ontos with little fear of retaliation. Clan ER medium lasers and pulse lasers are overall better than ML boats. Even the IS ER medium laser has it's uses, and it definitely improves low-weaponry stuff like the Savannah Master.
Would you prefer comparing the AC/20 to SRMs then, seeing as that is the only Lv1 tech item with an identical range bracket to the medium laser and AC/20?
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Cray
03/05/15 11:12 PM
67.8.171.23
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Alrighty, this thread is unlocked. If you think you can honestly add something constructive to the original subject, then feel free to do so.
However, before you start typing, please take a moment to review the posting rules (like 1 and 6) and remember this thread was already locked once this evening. Moderator attention is elevated.
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/154790/an/0/page/0#154790
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Akalabeth
03/05/15 11:32 PM
64.251.81.66
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The Medium Laser may not be the best weapon in all circumstances but it is the most efficient weapon in the game, at least in terms of the inner sphere arsenal.
Clan weapons are another matter.
As to what to compare the AC/20 to, there are a multitude of ways to do so, not solely based on range.
One advantage that the AC/20 DOES have over say 4 Medium Lasers is that it has a higher chance of delivering all of its damage (whereas the medium lasers have a higher chance of delivering SOME damage).
Autocannons are also in general better on ICE vehicles that energy weapons. More efficient tonnage.
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Cray
03/05/15 11:43 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
One advantage that the AC/20 DOES have over say 4 Medium Lasers is that it has a higher chance of delivering all of its damage (whereas the medium lasers have a higher chance of delivering SOME damage).
Er...is the AC/20 capable of delivering less than all of its damage? 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Akalabeth
03/06/15 08:32 AM
96.49.50.102
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Quote:
Cray writes:
Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
One advantage that the AC/20 DOES have over say 4 Medium Lasers is that it has a higher chance of delivering all of its damage (whereas the medium lasers have a higher chance of delivering SOME damage).
Er...is the AC/20 capable of delivering less than all of its damage?
Nope. That's the beauty of it.
Though if you hit the head, you'll only do 12 damage to the mech. 
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/06/15 10:12 AM
172.56.40.240
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
Quote:
Cray writes:
Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
One advantage that the AC/20 DOES have over say 4 Medium Lasers is that it has a higher chance of delivering all of its damage (whereas the medium lasers have a higher chance of delivering SOME damage).
Er...is the AC/20 capable of delivering less than all of its damage?
Though if you hit the head, you'll only do 12 damage to the mech.
Well Cray you got your answer. Yes the AC-20 can do less than than its full damage. =P
I did have to look it up on a damage sheet to in fact confirm that head hits do not transfer to the center torso. I was not all that surprised that it did not after I thought about what the game started as, and that after a mech was out of commission there was no thought of what happens after the battle was over. When the game was expanded from a table top game that no one updated the rules to account for extra damage to the head.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
03/06/15 12:26 PM
76.89.120.217
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Technically there is a second time the 20 doesn't do full damage.
Depletion of the center torso with extra left. But that is just being an ****.
Now there is a question for those that use salvaging rules.
Do you have a mech that is down continue to take damage like being in line of missed shots, or a strafe?
Yeah, getting off subject.
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