general information part 2

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ghostrider
04/28/16 08:33 PM
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Have the developers thought of making a hellfire missile type of bomb?
Something that can be dropped from orbit and take out the sensor nets looking for ships?

Also related, just what is the range of mechs sensors?
Can they detect a dropship in orbit?
Or if there is anything heading their direction 5 miles out? 10 miles?

Thought about after posting, but would an advanced probe extend this range without finding the specials like it does at closer ranges?


Edited by ghostrider (04/28/16 08:34 PM)
ghostrider
04/28/16 08:57 PM
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Thought came up with ams and bombs.

I believe the ams does not engage bombs fired at a unit.
Is this because the bombs have no active targeting apparatus on it?

And since they have Tag guided missiles, would not tag guided bombs be the next logical step in this progression?
Karagin
04/28/16 08:58 PM
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They have not really done anything like that in the game, per say, they did have a similar idea back in the Renegade Legion game called the THOR, it fired guided steel like darts or crowbars from orbit to hit ground targets. The idea is not a new one, but is limited in how it can be used in an era of warships, dropships and fighters.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
04/29/16 03:00 AM
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Thor? Haven't heard of it, but there is a game called TOG (terrain overlord government) that had a video game as well as battle game out. I played the original, and it was fun. Same with the video game. But once you figure out the mass drivers don't bother with shields, it gets alot easier.

So any comments on the suggestions?

The idea of the sensor information came while thinking of what would happed if a planets sensor or radar was taken out. Weither by force or just hacked. Kind of harm bomb then how do you figure out where the enemy is landing at, or is at?
Karagin
04/29/16 09:56 AM
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Yes Renegade Legion did have a video game spin off or two. The suggestion to look at the THOR from that game was my suggestion and again having something like that would not last long given that the orbit can be tracked and the other side has aerospace fighters that can shoot it down.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
04/29/16 05:35 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Have the developers thought of making a hellfire missile type of bomb?



TAG-guided bombs and artillery shells have been in the game for about 20 years.

Quote:
Something that can be dropped from orbit and take out the sensor nets looking for ships?



That's a different matter. There aren't a lot of anti-sensor munitions in the game, and no guided orbit-to-surface weapons.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
04/29/16 08:54 PM
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Might have been thinking of harm missiles. The ones that lock onto radar stations and go in from that.
I did know the arrow IV had tag guided missiles, but they did have tag guided aircraft and Aerofighter bombs? Ok. Good to know.
Do they have rules for announcing which units are being targeted?
Or can a load of units target different units and direct the fire to those that got a lock on it?
I can see that being abused. Missed my lock on, but one of the others has a lock. Or multiple locks on different units.
Akalabeth
04/30/16 03:42 AM
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TAG rules are in BMR.
ghostrider
04/30/16 12:01 PM
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Didn't see anything about multiple lock ons on more then one unit.. And with normal game proceedures, you specify targets before resolution. I understand if a lock on doesn't happen, shifting the target if another lock on is achieved with another unit, but it goes against the targeting rules to decide, well since this unit is dead, I will shift the ordinance to another unit. Can't do that with the field units, why would off map artillery be able to?

Also they say multiple units can lock on the same target, but nothing is said of multiple targets being locked up.
I believe this need to be cleared up.
ghostrider
05/04/16 12:43 AM
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It was suggested a short while ago that the company would not remake all the units in the game to fill some issues that came up.

Dungeons and Dragons has done it at least 3 times in the history of the game. It is still around and making money. The basic, advanced, and 3.0 rule sets changed a majority, if not all of the monsters and most of the character classes in the game.

As this is not really feasible at this time, I don't expect the developers of Battletech to even think about it.
This is more of a for your information post.
Akalabeth
05/04/16 01:43 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Dungeons and Dragons has done it at least 3 times in the history of the game. It is still around and making money. The basic, advanced, and 3.0 rule sets changed a majority, if not all of the monsters and most of the character classes in the game.

This is more of a for your information post.



Suggest you look into Pathfinder and what happened to D&D's market share between 3rd and 4th edition.

Quote:
Akalabeth writes:

TAG rules are in BMR.


Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Didn't see anything about multiple lock ons on more then one unit..



Look again

BMR:R page 71
"Players firing homing missiles must select a specific TAG-equipped unit to act as a spotter on the turn of the missile's arrival"

page 72
"If the spotter fails to designate the target (the to-hit roll fails), the missile explodes harmlessly"


Missiles are assigned to spotters. Not to targets.
ghostrider
05/05/16 01:12 AM
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So if your unit has 5 tag equipped units on the field, you would have to say they are locking on to unit a this turn, even though unit b and d have a lock on with the same frequency?
I would assume your entire force would have the same frequency, otherwise using the homing missiles would be useless to all but on specific unit.
And with that, if it is one frequency, how does it determine which target it goes after if say 2 different targets get a lock with the same frequency?

And this is dealing with unit b targeting one unit, while unit d targets a completely different enemy unit. Could be on a different board if you want to go that route.
It has come up in a few games.
Do you roll to see which ones gain a lock then assign the shot?
Or do you assign the shot, then roll?
The rules seem to be set with a single unit doing the targeting, and only one target is being targeted.

The cheap way out of this is shutting down the other locks. But that is like switching your fire to another unit when your named target was taken out by another unit in that round.
Akalabeth
05/05/16 03:12 AM
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If a player has 5 missiles arriving, and he has three TAG units on the field, an Oscout, a Raven and a Zephyr.

A player might say "I assign two to the Oscout, two to the Raven, and one the Zephyr.

Each then makes their TAG attack roll. Let's say the Raven and Zephyr hits, but the Oscout misses.
What happens to the Ostscouts missiles? They're gone. Lost. The other three hit as normal.

You assign missiles to spotters. The spotters roll to spot. If they fail, the missiles are lost.

That's it. Nothing more. End of Story.
ghostrider
05/05/16 12:24 PM
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That is how we played it, but there wasn't any thing in the books to say that. This is some of why things need to be explained in the books. Same person had said if the others didn't lock, the missiles would guide on the ones that did.

I know it sucks as that will increase the size of the books to cover stupid things like this that come up, but being on the same page is not as clear cut as you would think.
Akalabeth
05/05/16 01:50 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

That is how we played it, but there wasn't any thing in the books to say that.




Yes there is. I quoted everything you need.
You ASSIGN missiles to spotters. If those spotters don't successfully designate, the missiles explode.
There's is nothing that says you can REASSIGN the missiles to new spotters if the previously chosen spotter fails.


"Players firing homing missiles must select a specific TAG-equipped unit to act as a spotter on the turn of the missile's"

Specific, as in ONE unit. Not multiple units.
The problem with many Battletech groups is that they read the rules a few times, and play with how they think they are rather than with how they're actually written. This is the case in the LAM Airmech conflict, and this is the case here as well. If the rule isn't in the book, it doesn't exist. It's a house rule.
ghostrider
05/05/16 04:34 PM
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The definition provided sounds like a single unit is the only one to designate all incoming tag guided missiles, not splitting diferent volleys of missiles between multiple lock ons in that turn.
Your solution with the Ostscout, Raven and Zephyr goes against this. I agree with this solution, but it does not clear the argument up.

The problem you suggest is there, but most do not realize there is more then one way to interpret those very rules.
As stated with the landing of lams after flight. It is part of the flight rules, yet there is nothing stating you can NOT turn around or face any direction you want during the landing. That goes to the jumping rules, which does not really include lams in airmech mode.
Akalabeth
05/05/16 05:04 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

The definition provided sounds like a single unit is the only one to designate all incoming tag guided missiles, not splitting diferent volleys of missiles between multiple lock ons in that turn.



"Players firing homing missiles must select a specific TAG-equipped unit to act as a spotter on the turn of the missile's arrival"

Notice how missile is singular, not plural.
Notice how it does NOT say "all missiles" as you have.

These are the small details which answer the questions.
One specific spotter on the turn that the missile arrives. There is no such thing as a "volley of missiles". Volley is not a rule term in Battletech. When you have a missile arrive, you assign a specific TAG-equipped spotter. If another missile is arriving, assign a new or the same spotter for it and so on.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Your solution with the Ostscout, Raven and Zephyr goes against this. I agree with this solution, but it does not clear the argument up.



When you obfuscate the rules by introducing elements and ideas not supported by the text then of course you will get confused. If you want to understand a rule, read the rule. Don't discuss ideas that aren't in the rules like TAG frequency. Understanding the rule requires actually studying the text of the rule.

There is no such thing as "TAG frequency" in battletech rules. There are homing missiles. And friendly, TAG-equipped spotting units.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:
As stated with the landing of lams after flight. It is part of the flight rules, yet there is nothing stating you can NOT turn around or face any direction you want during the landing. That goes to the jumping rules, which does not really include lams in airmech mode.



The rules specifically state that it's treated like jumping except where noted. If it's not noted, then it doesn't exist. The absence of a restriction implies or confirms that there is no restriction and to suggest the opposite is to go against the wording of the rule and to introduce a house rule.
ghostrider
05/05/16 08:46 PM
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Again, the statement of a unit being the spotter implies only ONE unit can target for all inbound missiles. I very much sounds like you can not target another unit with anything. Only one target is allowed. And anything that it missiles tag equipped can hit only that target.

Understanding a rule by studying it does not mean everyone sees it the way you want them to. And if there is no rule to solve the situation, does that mean all game play stops as there is no answer to such rules. It was stated people do not always want a house rule.
Now if there is not tag frequency in the game, what is to prevent the enemy from confusing your incoming tag guided missiles from using their tag device?
The rules imply you control it, but nothing is said about the enemy not being able to use them with their tag units.

So by the definition of if it's not stated or noted, then it doesn't exist. That suggests there are alot of holes that need to be plugged before you can actually play.
Maybe you can explain launching and landing in the flight rules for lams and tell me how that is not NOTED for alternative rules then the jump jets. As it is incomplete, it assumes jump jets, but the very idea of turn mode rules gets thrown out the window. It does not say use jump jet rules when landing. It is a noted exception.
Akalabeth
05/05/16 09:11 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Now if there is not tag frequency in the game, what is to prevent the enemy from confusing your incoming tag guided missiles from using their tag device?

The rules imply you control it, but nothing is said about the enemy not being able to use them with their tag units.



The guy who fires the missile picks the spotter.
How many questions are you going to ask that have already been answered by one line of rules?

Quote:
Maybe you can explain launching and landing in the flight rules for lams and tell me how that is not NOTED for alternative rules then the jump jets. As it is incomplete, it assumes jump jets, but the very idea of turn mode rules gets thrown out the window. It does not say use jump jet rules when landing. It is a noted exception.



The noted exception is that you need to pay 2 MP to launch and land and you need to make a piloting roll.
Those are the ONLY exceptions. It doesn't say "don't use the rules".

Really dude, I'm not surprised you have so many issues because it's fairly apparent that you're not even discussing them. Half of the problems you have with the rulebook don't even exist in the rulebook. You're creating problems, asking for solutions, and then creating even more problems when the first solutions are resolved. I doubt you've read or played Battletech in years since you've continually failed to both quote and properly respresent the rules as written.
ghostrider
05/05/16 11:37 PM
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It seems you assume that it defaults to another rule set, because that is the way your group read it.
Is the flight movement by a lam in airmech mode not covered in the rules?
Does it say you can spin 180 in air?
From the looks of it, you can turn without moving forwards the allotted amount by making a piloting roll. Without seeing those rules I would have to assume it is a single hex side, not 2 or 3.
The moment you declare you are in flight mode, they rules are clear on that. Launching and landing are part of the flight rules.
This supersedes jump jet rules for the ENITRE time you are in flight mode, INCLUDING landing. This means you do not default to other rules.


The advice you gave is read the rules. It seems that implies not filling in the blanks with other rules. Combining them because that is your interpretation does not make it so.
It makes sense, but is not how the rules are written.

But this should go back to the lam thread. Though the interpretation of rules does have a legitimacy through alot of threads.

Now with reading and studying the rules, does it actually say how to deal with multiple missiles and lock ons?
I believe it says one target per round. Nothing is stated for different launchers and different targeting units. Interpretation says one thing, but there is nothing there in the rules. Given one of the advisors have been 'banned' from using tags on everything, I am surprised this was not seen. Maybe they only used one launcher per round. I don't know.
GiovanniBlasini
05/06/16 12:25 AM
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Since we're all talking about LAM rules again, could you clarify which set of rules you're discussing?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
Akalabeth
05/06/16 02:31 AM
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Since ghostrider doesn't own any Battletech products printed this millenium, I was discussing THB and BMR:R

What he's discussing who knows. Even when discussing BMR TAG rules he introduces ideas which have no bearing on the game. What he seems to be attempting to do is that because his position on the THB rulebook is indefensible, he's instead appealing to the IOps rules, which he doesn't own and hasn't read.

So he's probably discussing THB rules, mixed with his own ideas and reinforced by what he guesses the IOps rules are.
ghostrider
05/06/16 12:03 PM
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The lam thing dealt with being able to land facing any direction while in flight mode. The question was originally, did they fix this, as it violates flying backwards, and with them saying you can not turn 180 degrees while in flight mode, why should it be allowed upon landing.
It is implied to use jump jet rules this point, but it contradicts the flight rules.

the current discussing deals with the tag and multiple shots arriving and multiple lock ons. It was suggested if it isn't printed, then it is house rules, but yet has an idea that it is canon that you can have multiple lock ons to different units from different tag carrying units, yet the only thing the rules says implies one incoming tag equipped missiles and one tag unit working.
I asked if the new rules dealt with this, and so far the answer is no. A logical response to this has been given, and frankly used long before coming to this board, but it does not make it canon, unless printed.
GiovanniBlasini
05/06/16 12:48 PM
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Out of curiosity, have you ever seen a V-22 Osprey, AV-8 Harrier or VTOL version of the F-35 Lightning II (that's the B, right?) do a vertical landing or maneuver when in VTOL flight at low altitude?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
Akalabeth
05/06/16 02:45 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

I asked if the new rules dealt with this, and so far the answer is no. A logical response to this has been given, and frankly used long before coming to this board, but it does not make it canon, unless printed.



Yeah looking at Tac Ops, the new rules have dealt with the question and have changed other things as well. It's pretty cool. I re-learned a few things I had forgotten when I checked it out.
ghostrider
05/06/16 08:27 PM
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The craft that are turning while hovering. How long do they take?
10 seconds with forward motion to dead stop to landing?
I have seen them turn while hovering. They take some time to do so, and they are already hovering, not slowing down to make the turn, nor are the landing. Also, they are not doing so on anything but an open flat area without any obstructions to worry about.
Well one issue. They were close to the edge of the air craft carrier they were showing it being done.

And that is not moving other parts like arms and legs to get a shot off on the enemy. When targeting, they use things that autotrack. without major movement of extremities.
ghostrider
05/08/16 01:25 AM
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What page in tac ops is this supposedly at?
I had 3 people tell me it has not been dealt.
GiovanniBlasini
05/08/16 02:51 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

What page in tac ops is this supposedly at?
I had 3 people tell me it has not been dealt.



What page in Tac Ops is what supposedly dealt with?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
Akalabeth
05/08/16 03:24 AM
108.180.183.124

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

What page in tac ops is this supposedly at?
I had 3 people tell me it has not been dealt.



Artillery munitions.
You know, the exact same place you found the rules in BMR
ghostrider
05/08/16 12:49 PM
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Misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the lam question, not the multiple tag designator/target question.

My mistake. I should have asked for clarification first.
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