Battle Value 3.0

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Akalabeth
05/22/16 05:31 PM
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Whatever happened to Battle Value 3.0?
It's fairly apparent that BV 2.0 is completely borked.

As an easy example,

One can create a 5/8 60 ton mech with a Gauss Rifle (16 rounds), STD engine and Max Armour for 1506 BV

One can also create a 5/8 30 ton mech with a Gauss Rifle (16 rounds), STD Engine and ZERO armour for 699 BV


Two of the 30 tonners are 1400, almost the same as the 60 ton mech. Face them against each other and they'll have double the firepower of the 60 tonner but will need to hit the same place twice to breach armour. Meanwhile, the 60 tonner will crippled or destroy the 30 tonners when hitting any location except the arm&side opposite the Gauss Rifle (27% chance). Which means there's a 73% chance the 30 tonner will be legged, destroyed or weaponless after a single hit.

Battle Value as it stands doesn't value durability high enough as demonstrated by this 5 minute example. Something that I'm surprised they didn't catch prior to publishing the system.


In our campaign, the battle value of clan machines means that lights and mediums are often facing inner sphere heavies. But time and time again, the clan machines are simply unable to compete with the IS if those machines are well armoured.
TigerShark
05/23/16 09:09 PM
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This thread will be followed by the usual bull about "it's the best we've got." In reality, BV has very little bearing on the real value of units on a board. It's a psychological seditive. Gets people to feel better about their odds before the game's outset. Beyond that, any other system could replace it and the games would be just about as balanced.
Retry
05/24/16 12:18 AM
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Now, I don't care for BV any more than the next guy, but who in their right mind would create an armorless combat mech?
ghostrider
05/24/16 12:53 AM
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I agree that bv needs work. An ac 20 is an awesome weapon if you get in range and have ammo. A single ton is not really represented in the whole workings of bv. Yes it drops, but for something like a hunchback IIc, you have no range after you use the whole 2 tons.
Granted to be more accurate with bv, you would need several entries, which isn't really feasible.
What good is a tank on a forested moon? Couldn't move into it at all so attacking something without a road is beyond hopeless. In the same environment, non clan lrms are pretty worthless as direct fire as well. The ac 20 gains power. Medium range would be the longest ranges to even try to fire. And that would mean a few open spaces.

And asking about who would create what is a slippery slope. I agree to use one is not smart, but the example was meant for a comparison.
And if you are running a campaign, it is possible to have a unit with armor missing from interrupted repairs. A few scenarios in the packs have actually done that. Not a fully stripped unit, but missing arm armor or torso armor. The urbanmech comes to mind with me. Some love the mech, but the speed for a light is beyond too slow.

It also seems to break down with skill sets. There is only so much damage you can do with a mech with an ml and 2 mgs. And you are still at the mercy of the number of missiles that hit using lrms/srms. You could hit with all 10 srm packs on an srm carrier and roll nothing but 1 or 2 missiles. Where a rookie could get lucky, and hit with a pair of srms, and hit with all 6.
Akalabeth
05/24/16 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Retry writes:

Now, I don't care for BV any more than the next guy, but who in their right mind would create an armorless combat mech?



I dunno dude, the Locust 1M only has 1 ton of armour. 1 point of armour on the legs and arm isn't strictly "armourless" but it might as well be. So the answer would be the Free Worlds League.

The Nexus and Fire Moth/Dasher similarly only have 2 tons of armour, albeit ferro fiborous.

Either way the example was only to illustrate a point.


Quote:
ghostrider writes:

What good is a tank on a forested moon? Couldn't move into it at all so attacking something without a road is beyond hopeless. In the same environment, non clan lrms are pretty worthless as direct fire as well. The ac 20 gains power. Medium range would be the longest ranges to even try to fire. And that would mean a few open spaces.



Questions of terrain don't matter in a point value system. Terrain and other scenario conditions if anything should modify the forces being taken but not how much those forces cost. Maybe a disadvantaged force gets more points for example.

Similarly, range factors into weapon cost. Both the Medium Laser and Light PPC do 5 damage but the LPPC is more BV.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:
It also seems to break down with skill sets. There is only so much damage you can do with a mech with an ml and 2 mgs. And you are still at the mercy of the number of missiles that hit using lrms/srms. You could hit with all 10 srm packs on an srm carrier and roll nothing but 1 or 2 missiles. Where a rookie could get lucky, and hit with a pair of srms, and hit with all 6.



Random chance works out over time and outlier examples don't factor in.
TigerShark
05/27/16 12:51 PM
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More ridiculous examples can be created. For example, you could slap three Gauss rifles on a 'Mech and make its BV skyrocket. Know what you forgot? Ammo. You could have 0 shots of ammo to feed those guns and they will STILL be the same BV. There are fixes I've proposed in other forums, but that should be relatively simple to do. They've just never done it: in 20+ years.
TigerShark
05/27/16 01:23 PM
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In reality, a lot of the issue is how adjustments blindly affect the full BV of the unit, when they should only affect the Offensive or Defensive Battle Ratings.

Instead of having one BV for the unit, it should be split:

Offensive BV
Defensive BV
Total

When you have something like a Gunnery increase, it should affect only that which is affected by a Gunnery increase; namely, weapons. At current, the Physicals are being calculated in the OV, when they should simply be a factor in DBV, since it's just the flat weight of the unit and not its physical damage being accounted for. Then you change the Pilot Skill Chart to accommodate the change. :

Quote:

Toyama TYM-1A
Current BV: 1714

OV: 904
DV: 814
BV: 1718




Adding a level of gunnery (+40%, as an example of the increase) would affect only its OV. Adding a level of piloting (+20%) would affect its DV. NOTE (This revised BV calc includes a reduction in piloting cost, assuming a base +10% current instead of +15%. When doubling the modifier, it then becomes +20% instead of +30%)

So a 3/4 would be...

Quote:

OV: 1265
DV: 976
BV: 2214 (New)
BV: 2365 (Current)




So how does this benefit us? A 'Mech with no/few weapons would have a very low OV, such as the CGR-1A1. Their Gunnery increases would affect them far less than their Piloting increases. The slow, weapons-based units (Annihilator) will have their DVs become miniscule, affecting them less when they acquire Piloting levels, since it will be used MUCH less than their Gunnery. (How often does an ANH-1X get into kicking range?)


Edited by TigerShark (05/27/16 01:27 PM)
Akalabeth
05/27/16 02:21 PM
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I don't think physicals are as important as stability.
A mech which falls after taking 20 damage has a few important changes:
1. Takes damage from the fall
2. Has up to a -17% gunnery shift next turn, since they're spending movement to get up which doesn't benefit them defensively.
3. Cannot jump in the next turn

Physicals of course can be useful but it's just another way to deal damage, like another weapon, whereas failing a piloting skill roll and falling affects the entire mech. Then of course you need another PSR to stand.

The need for good piloting is exacerbated as the mech takes damage as well to its gyro or leg actuators, especially for jumping mechs. Though this is a rarer consideration.
ghostrider
05/27/16 05:17 PM
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Mechs fall for other reasons then just taking damage.
Rough terrain.
Being pushed or charged.
Being kicked.
Gyro damage.
Leg damage.
the 20 points is just one of the things most people deal with piloting rolls.
And for some mechs, physicals is their main thing. Without it, they waste alot of tonnage for nothing.
Bv should encompass all aspects.

As tiger suggested, not having any ammo doesn't change the bv of a unit that uses it.
And as for most that have found fast movement means less getting hit, isn't really shown in the bv.
Also, more then a few units don't show up properly because of over heating issues.
Bv uses heat dissipation as the base, yet things like the rifleman can be dangerous with an alpha, yet worthless when they finally shut down.

And as I said, terrain can make or break a unit. What good is an urbanmech in an open level field? Target practice for most.
Some maps are almost impossible to traverse without jets. Yet the bv of an annihilator remains the same. As well as an archer, or longbow.
The example of the lance of centurions verses the manticores is a good example of this. The one map shown to argue about hovers is a very good example. Tracked and wheeled vehicles with lrms are at a severe disadvantage against jumpers there. It you can avoid the long range fire, demolishers would be a better choice.
And suggesting that isn't the case, then stop picking units for the battle and randomly roll what you use.
Instead of the lams, spiders, and assassins, use the annihilator, or behemoth tank in the next break out scenario. Take 10 rounds to get across one board. And that is without trying to hide in cover.
KamikazeJohnson
05/27/16 09:23 PM
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Constructing fringe cases and saying "A is clearly superior to B" says very little about the value of the system as a whole.

In the original case, sure, the 60-tonner will PROBABLY win (although it will face a MINIMUM of 3 Gauss Rifle shots, which is very capable of delivering crippling damage on a 60-tonner. OTOH, which will do better against a 'Mech carrying an AC/20? Now the 2 Gauss Rifles, and the 2 separate units for tactical manoevering, have a much better chance of ending fight before the AC/20 'Mech can close.

Fact is, I could design a set of 4 'Mechs, all with the same BV, where A beats B, B beats C, C beats D, and D beats A, and all of those fights are embarrassingly easy victories. And that also says nothing of how much assistance they will be in a Lance with other 'Mechs.

Any BV system will be a average of all applicable factors, with an assortment of loopholes that can be exploited by someone determined to do so.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Akalabeth
05/27/16 09:50 PM
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Sure it does. It demonstrates an obvious flaw.

My example is very controlled.
You have three mechs with the same engine type, the same speed and the same weapon. The only difference is the durability. One is a fully armoured 60 ton mech. The other two, unarmoured 30 ton mechs.

The only variable is the durability and that it's two against one.

You can say that the lighter mechs COULD win, but odds say they'll lose almost every time. Play the game out thousands of times and the 60 tonner will emerge victorious the majority of the time.

Assuming 15 armour on the front of the 60 tonner's CT, the enemy will need to hit it 3 times to destroy the mech outright. The odds of them hitting the CT three times on three shots is 0.7%. Basically they would need to hope for a lucky headshot in order to win.

Playing two Gauss rifles against an AC/20 is self-defeating because your test introduces another variable. And expanding the scope of the argument beyond all limitations is equally pointless.
ghostrider
05/27/16 11:37 PM
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Fringe cases and normal cases. I have yet seen running games that use the same maps to come out even close to being the same. The simple move of going around a mountain has stopped the rain of long range death on several units, which allowed them to get in range of their own weapons. Using woods does a lot to help as well.
And I am not talking about the lucky hits. Normal average rolls.
Even something as simple as coming in the opposite end of the map had changed what happened.

That is not saying random rolls haven't destroyed some of the curve, but that is looked at as well. No real scientific ways can be done with any method rolling dice, but using an average is where it is at.
Without a spotter, idf doesn't happen with lrm units. Behind a mountain makes them vulnerable to other units closing in.
Granted this is a simplified way of figuring it out. It may have worked for the older units, but so much has changed and there are some things that don't fit in with this very well.

Using mgs covers the short range even though the only go 3 range. The lrms short range is 7. That alone skewers the results alot. Firing at 3 range with non clan launchers is difficult at best. This is where the abstract concepts like this break down.
The quick combat of battles in space show this as well.
Akalabeth
05/28/16 01:09 AM
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Point systems aren't about imagining a scenario, they're about imagining EVERY scenario.
Talking about specifics with regards to maps or starting positions is consequently irrelevant because there are too many variables to account for.
TigerShark
05/31/16 02:51 PM
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I've always been a supporter of OPTIONAL (saying this in BIG, BOLD letters before people get crazy) terrain modifiers.

EXAMPLE:

Code:

ARC-2R

City: +
Plains:
Mountain/Hill:
Woods: -


In this case, the ARC-2R would get a 10% 'penalty' added to its BV for Cities, due to the indirect fire capability. It would get 10% subtracted in woods, due to its limited LOS. Just an example, but this little chart could be added to a unit's TRO and applied during the game at both players' discretion.

Another case would be the Septicemia B, which is a jump/pulse nightmare:

Code:

Septicemia B

City: +
Plains:
Mountain/Hill: +
Woods: +


In all terrain except Plains, the unit gains 10%. In flat terrain, it nets a +0%.
ghostrider
05/31/16 05:55 PM
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It's going to sound picky, but plains should be open terrain.
There are plains that have woods and other obstacles that could limit ranges.
But the set up does help factor in things that should not be ignore, but are.
Akalabeth
06/01/16 02:21 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

It's going to sound picky



This should be your forum signature



All Battletech maps, even plains have some terrain features. So "Plains" is appropriate.
No one plays on a blank map sheet except for those that are extremely boring.
ghostrider
06/01/16 05:01 PM
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First, lets deal with the constant personal digs.
I find it odd that your insistence that you know the rules in and out, yet still resort to purposefully misleading people to try and make it sound like you were the one to write them yet suggest others, don't know anything about the game. You having all the new books and studied them, you still have shown a lack of understanding them.

Now. Not using an open flat terrain explains why you lack some experiences with the game, and why some flaws in it are not noticed by you.But that is actually expected.
No terrain means your jumpers are likely to be hit with long range weapons before you can jump behind the units.
There is no challenge to the game when the only tactic you have is hiding in terrain and jumping behind the units you are fighting. It also explains why the concept of power gaming isn't something you can understand.
I would bet you tried it once against a unit of tanks and got whooped.

But I can see why it would be boring. The averages to hit each other are closer then being able to sit in heavy forest and avoid them even firing at you, while you have only 8's to hit.

You have the right to disagree. Leave the person digs out of the conversation. I have tried to, but I am slipping even more.
Akalabeth
06/01/16 07:37 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Now. Not using an open flat terrain explains why you lack some experiences with the game, and why some flaws in it are not noticed by you.But that is actually expected.
No terrain means your jumpers are likely to be hit with long range weapons before you can jump behind the units.
There is no challenge to the game when the only tactic you have is hiding in terrain and jumping behind the units you are fighting. It also explains why the concept of power gaming isn't something you can understand.
I would bet you tried it once against a unit of tanks and got whooped.

But I can see why it would be boring. The averages to hit each other are closer then being able to sit in heavy forest and avoid them even firing at you, while you have only 8's to hit.



Playing on a featureless map is both A) Unrealistic and B) Restricting because it removes some of the core aspects of a ground combat game. This isn't outer-space, with the odd pebble floating around here and there, this is planetary combat where adjusting your battle plan to suit the terrain is par for the course. A game without terrain may as well be played on a line, not a 2D playing field, because at that point the only thing that matters is range.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:
You have the right to disagree. Leave the person digs out of the conversation. I have tried to, but I am slipping even more.



If you want less personal digs, then broaden the scope of your discourse beyond the narrow focus of "finding fault with X". Very few, if any, of your posts actually celebrate any part of the game. When TigerShark shares with you a system that addresses some of your very complaints, what do you do? Complain and criticize it. This isn't the exception for you, it's par for the course. Want to surprise people? Talk about the things you actually enjoy about the game.
ghostrider
06/01/16 09:55 PM
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Restricting as it removes the core aspects of ground combat? What game are you playing?
The core aspect of the game in not mountain fighting every battle. Not every planet has forests covering everything that isn't city. Try fighting in the corm fields of nebraska. Or maybe follow some of the battles of the bulge in the world wars. Not exactly flat, but for a 12 to 18 meter tall unit, there isn't really much cover.

But then that would mean assault mechs would actually be the masters of the field with the firepower they carry, not the streak and pulse units that seem to popular with the overpowered units.

And speaking of the game. It is battletech, not battlemech. Some people do enjoy playing vehicles, and even infantry. It seems you should be playing robotech as it is bascially only robots fighting. This game is based on combat, and alot seem to think that means mechs are the ONLY thing to use.
If this was true, why bother with vehicles, fighters, and such. Even infantry would be useless in the game you are looking to play, other then easy targets.

And you still need to understand what is written. It seems assumption is the best you got.
I agree bv as well as other things have issues.
So how, it is suggested I said the whole system needs to be throw out. The idea this system covers all scenarios if far from the truth. It is a down and dirty quick fix to figuring out what is supposed to be equal forces. The idea range is all powerful, yet as you yourself have suggested, there is not a single canon map that would allow an even a gauss rifle shot to hit everywhere on the board. The hilly canyon map is about the only one I have seen that would have some chance of hitting alot on the map without cover. Try traveling some time. Alot of freeway passes are long obstruction free areas with high walls.
The fights that seem to be emphasized seems to be guerilla fighting maps. Not real battle fields.
And you want real. Few forest I know of that a mech could move thru and not be snapping trees down as it move thru it. You would create a fire lane for anyone following or getting behind your unit. And speed would be alot slower as you were trying to force your way thru it on land.
Akalabeth
06/01/16 10:05 PM
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Corn field Nebraska:
Notice the TREES



Battle of the Bulge:
Notice the TREES and Hills



Seeing a pattern yet?


There are comparatively few environments where there is no cover, and if a mech is short ranged against a long-range opponent then why would it engage in a battle with no cover? It would simply not get into range in the first place and fight somewhere else unless the objective is in the middle of that flat terrain. Or it would load up on smoke round LRMs and create heavy-woods equivalent cover while it closes with the enemy.

But few battles would actually have short-ranged units charging at long-range units with zero intervening cover so the battle simply wouldn't take place.

The closest equivalent would be the desert warfare in Libya during WW2, but there it was long-range gun vs long-range gun.
ghostrider
06/02/16 02:24 PM
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Oh no! Those completely covered areas of heavy forest are just beyond belief.

Now on the same note, where are the soldiers? Are they hiding in the woods? And how about the full beach? Oh. yeah. Like the one map, you show the one place in miles that actually has anything approaching the cover of a mech. Knowing plants on the beach, I suspect the second picture is on a high outcropping of land, and those bushes are probably the height of a person, not a mech. NO BONUS for cover. Though it would slow movement some.

Vehicles would gain some camoflague, but not mechs. You are trying to pick and choose things, the corn fields in before harvest would provide camoflague for vehicles and not mechs for the entire field, not just the wind break. And to be considered forest or woods, they have to be 30 meters in diameter. Buy the rules, that you have studied and memorized so much.
But keep trying. You might actually come up with something that does show your side.

and if a mech is short ranged against a long-range opponent then why would it engage in a battle with no cover?
That statement shows just how little you know of actual military battles. You don't get to pick and chose your weapons or terrain to fight in. You use what you are given and make the best of it. I don't see howitzers and such in the second picture. Just riflemen. Did they tell their commanders to kiss their butts and not go into battle?
I don't even see mortars among them.
The environment forces decisions, and you think it does not matter what you do. You are to defend the target, or attack it. You do not say, I am not going to fight in the open fields where it is at. I am going to hide in the mountains. Guess who lost the encounter and is likely to be court martialed for failure to follow orders.
But then sticking with what is tried and true is the easiest thing to play. Using things outside your comfort zone is too scary to deal with, so nothing will be played in that environment.
Akalabeth
06/02/16 02:41 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Oh no! Those completely covered areas of heavy forest are just beyond belief.



Quote:
ghostrider writes:

It's going to sound picky, but plains should be open terrain.
There are plains that have woods and other obstacles that could limit ranges.



Point is that even what you believe to be are "open areas" have cover. Nearly all terrain has SOME cover of some description. So TigerShark's "plains" description is appropriate as the default, sparse-cover, battletech game map.


Quote:
ghostrider writes:

You don't get to pick and chose your weapons or terrain to fight in.



Armies absolutely do choose what terrain to fight in. Even when attacking a target, they choose what terrain to approach from, and choose when to attack, as in when they have the appropriate assets like armour or artillery or air support at their disposal.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:
But then sticking with what is tried and true is the easiest thing to play. Using things outside your comfort zone is too scary to deal with, so nothing will be played in that environment.



Says the guy who plays with Battletech Master Rules.
Hahahahaha. You're a riot.
ghostrider
06/02/16 05:02 PM
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I guess it never occurred to you that most of the rules you play with came from master rules and before hand. With some exceptions and some new rules, it is the same thing you play with now.

And plains can have forests, as well as other cover throughout their areas.
I will give you this. Rough terrain was one I overlooked when thinking about it. Affects movement but doesn't block shots for any but maybe infantry.

And I believe you need to actually reread and study history. During wolrd war 1 and 2, germany had to attack france from the east. There was NO changing that fact. They had to attack russia from the west. Same deal.
The artificial environment the game promotes keeps you from actually seeing things. You suggested reality and logic are not supported by the game yet use that as a defense about using an open flat map.
And again. they have the appropriate assets like armour or artillery or air support at their disposal. How many times does a unit have everything they need at their fingertips?
I guess the group you play with does not actually deal with the only thing you can use is what you have now. No changing units with the next scenario. No bringing in or changing out units as needed.
Omnis came about since armies could not afford to have dozens of units sitting around incase you needed it for the next mission. Changing out arms to fit was alot easier, then having 4 mechs doing nothing. But then that is something that seems to be lacking. Consistency of play.

Best reread that about plains. No where in the name or description does Tiger say it was sparse covered. Again, you are inserting things into sentences that aren't there.
And that is where it seems to be the problem. As with the original ecm, I was shown that is how it was. But that was someone's copy at the time. I think the rewrote it to prevent some things from happening. As with most of the new rules, skimming over them does lead to issues when they get change.

Now one more realistic thing for you. Why would they station units in areas they are not effective? When assaulting a forested area with plenty of hiding spots, you love to see lrm carriers as the ranges tend to be less then 5 hexes to fire in. Guess you never worried about the enemy not using the right equipment. Kinda makes scoring kills difficult when they use short range streaks at that range instead of innersphere lrms. Victory is all that matters. Not the challenge. Sad.
Akalabeth
06/02/16 05:31 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

I guess it never occurred to you that most of the rules you play with came from master rules and before hand. With some exceptions and some new rules, it is the same thing you play with now.



Guy who hasn't read a book tries to argue that the book is no different than another book.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:
And I believe you need to actually reread and study history. During wolrd war 1 and 2, germany had to attack france from the east. There was NO changing that fact.



I guess you missed the history lesson where the teacher told everyone that Germany attacked France from the NORTH, through Belgium and AROUND the eastern-facing Maginot line.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Best reread that about plains. No where in the name or description does Tiger say it was sparse covered. Again, you are inserting things into sentences that aren't there.




Yeah, I'm inserting things, It's called Common Sense.
And common sense combined with the topographical definition, existing battletech playing fields and Tigershark's listed alternatives says that it's relatively flat, sparse-cover terrain.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Victory is all that matters. Not the challenge. Sad.



As it happens dude, I've never said how I like to play nor described any of my games. So if you want to accuse someone of "inserting things" into a sentence, maybe you shouldn't create a bunch of baseless fantasies on how the person you're talking to plays in order to try and damage their credibility. Fact of the matter is, you're completely clueless as to what my play style is and even if you weren't, it's irrelevant to the discussion because discussing the merits of a system is completely separate from how you play the game.

Though in your case, if you're advocating for vehicles with lighter ICE engines and cheaper costs and you really prefer vehicles over mechs then maybe you can't separate your view of the game from how you play it, and you want to shape the game to conform to YOUR play style. That's assuming that, you know, you actually still play the game and don't only "discuss" it.
ghostrider
06/02/16 08:36 PM
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The germans came from the east. They hit the lines from a flanking direction, but still continued to push west to take the country, not just a single battle. They didn't drop off troops on the atlantic coast and push inland. Had Belgium actually been active in their defense of their country, Germany would not have had an option. But I can see where only one force is on a planet in the game and only in one location would make you think that is true for all things.

Now. Inserting what you think is common sense, is putting words in other people's mouths. Which has been an issue with the inability to read rules. I assume Tiger was suggesting the plains in his example were not the heavily covers ones, but saying the are shows the only thing you are concerned with is arguing and condoning anyone that doesn't see you as the lord of the rules.
And remember. Common sense doesn't work with the game rules, or have you changed your stance on that one as well?

You have described a few of your battles, and the constant arguing of what shouldn't happen or what is, shows that. Your changing units out for each scenario is shown in several posts. You have stated this in a few like not using certain mechs in break thru that you used in another scenario. Your description of units shows more of the death match style of play, as nothing you have stated indicates you have ever retreated from a combat. No matter what you want to call it, fight until dead is a death match without the arena.

I have advocated a few things. Mainly to stop hearing logic argued for what others don't want, but they use those same arguments to promote what they do. Did I agree heat should be built up in all units from ballistic weapons? Did I say vehicles should require heat sinks unless all units don't build heat? Oh yeah. Selective memory loss. As you suggested in a prior post, you didn't play the game before they filled some of the holes in the game. And I have not played it as long as those that did when it was battle droids.

And reread what I said about the rules in the books. Oh wait. You have shown you don't understand them as well as you think you do, and just insert what you want where you want it.
TigerShark
06/02/16 08:58 PM
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So.. Back to the discussion..!
CrayModerator
06/02/16 09:04 PM
67.8.237.126

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

First, lets deal with the constant personal digs.



How about let's not. The point at which conversation involves "you," "your," and terms that make it personal - don't.

Seriously, folks. This inability of both parties to keep any discussion on an impersonal basis is going to lead to some cool-down bans soon.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Akalabeth
06/02/16 09:08 PM
64.251.81.66

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

The germans came from the east. They hit the lines from a flanking direction,



Yeah, that flanking direction, it's called NORTH.

Similarly when the allies (UK&USA), which are located west of Germany, approached Germany by fighting through Italy, they were approaching from the SOUTH, not attacking from the west.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Your description of units shows more of the death match style of play, as nothing you have stated indicates you have ever retreated from a combat. No matter what you want to call it, fight until dead is a death match without the arena.




We use Forced Withdrawal rules. Units retreat or shutdown all the time.
All our missions are objective-based and include some victory conditions which are not about destroying the enemy.
We've used all types of units, played in all types of terrain and weather conditions with all types of objectives.
We've played probably 250+, in-person, 6-7 hour games in the last 6 or so years.

An absence of information isn't a justification to assume things to fit an argument.
ghostrider
06/04/16 12:57 PM
66.74.61.223

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Again, information was left out in the counter statements.
In wwII, Germany attacked west and southwest to pin the french on the Maginot lines to pin the french into place, while it invaded the neutral countries of the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Belgium. Then they used 2 of the neutral countries to strike the flanking maneuver. Without the forces keeping the french on the Marginot lines, this would not have been as successful. It did not help them, they thought the attack from parts of Belgium could not happen due to terrain and such. This was after the allies declared war on them.
And that isn't including the forces Germany had in other countries is was allied with for the push.

And somehow the information that the allies were hitting Germany in the west, to make it sound like the only battles raging during the counter attack was thru italy. The U.S. hit Normandy beach to begin the counter invasion, and had it not been for freeing france and hitting the germans from that direction, it would have allowed the germans to concentrate on their allies defenses.

Now. This differs from the game, as invading a planet that has ONE government running the military, and shifting forces around to prevent strikes from different directions seems to be missing in alot of the campaigns. The unit can not attack a target and defend their base, with the same forces during the same time period. Trying to hit the enemy from the opposite side of your landing zone would entail attacks from the planets defenders, and yes, there is a limit to how many they have. But since the game does not deal with strategy as much as the tactical parts of war, this point gets overlooked. Do not think it is how it is done in real life. And the game should have more to deal with it.

Germany is a little more north then I thought it was, but they still had to go west to invade France. They had to travel southwest to continue to invade it.
But I do see why people forget you need other diversionary forces to make advances during a battle. The game only deals with on spot at a time. Battleforce did try to show that, but I have not met many that actually use that game to do much with.
Akalabeth
06/04/16 04:22 PM
108.180.183.124

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Again, information was left out in the counter statements.

Germany is a little more north then I thought it was, but they still had to go west to invade France. They had to travel southwest to continue to invade it.
But I do see why people forget you need other diversionary forces to make advances during a battle. The game only deals with on spot at a time. Battleforce did try to show that, but I have not met many that actually use that game to do much with.



It doesn't matter how much spin you try to add. Add a whole novel if you want. At the end of the day Belgium is NORTH of France, and the main german invasion of France was from Belgium, in the North.

The basis of this discussion is your belief that a battletech army is forced to fight in certain terrain, because Germany was likewise forced to fight a certain way yet both your example and history prove you're wrong.

Armies chose what terrain to fight in, particularly on the attack when assaulting an area with multiple avenue of approach.

And if an army is forced to fight in disadvantageous terrain, like Infantry needing to defend a plain, then they MODIFY the terrain by creating fox holes and trenches and other fortifications. They're not FORCED to fight with no cover, they can CHOOSE to create cover.

In Battletech, you keep saying that BV is broken because what if an Archer is on a heavy woods map. Well in the real world, most gamers would agree upon the terrain being used either before or after their selection of forces. No gamer is going to take a force onto terrain that poses a crippling disadvantage for him and an advantage for his opponent. These sorts of considerations don't factor into a valuation system because common sense says that the players should work it out for themselves.

Tigersharks' modification scheme is exactly that, his group of players trying to work things out for themselves by taking different units on different types of terrain and modifying them to suit. These calculations however are problematic because they then require a second set of modifiers. Currently we have one value. If you want, you can split the Offensive Value out. Then you have two values. Then you can add Tiger Sharks' system in there and then you have 6 values.

But the problem is at that point, most gamers are going to check out. Because building an army just became a task in and of itself, adding to the set-up type and extending what is already a comparatively slow-playing game.
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