Requiem
04/08/18 03:20 AM
58.175.193.140
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Reasoning –
House Davion would not attack House Kurita in the war of 3039-40 rather the target would be House Liao, due to political / strategic issues …
• The no. of worlds to be captured Liao Vs. Kurita and the consideration that attacking Liao is a risk whereas Kurita is a gamble;
• Using the 20yr update book – the Capellan Confederation has only 26 regiments including 7 mercenary regiments;
• Most border worlds are protected by a single Battalion of ‘Mechs and Militia only;
• The main reasons however – if Hanse Davion is able to defeat another House – an act that no one else has ever achieved – it would go a long way to appointing him the new 1st Lord of a New Star League also it is simple Machiavellian theory – if you are on the way out – stab them in the back as quickly as possible. ;
• …. And keeping his wedding day promise to his wife – the Capellan Confederation;
• Attacking House Liao rather than Kurita the economic impact to both Davion and Steiner would be minimised / long term – the integration of the Capellan economy y would be a boon to both the Steiner / Davion realms; and
• NT: Integration of HPG Fax Machines into the military / specific worlds - Davion has begun mass produced his HPG Fax machines in the event of any act on the part of Comstar.
Major Issues -
Would Prince Hanse Davion initiate a provocation to renew Operation Rat with House Liao? Or wold it come without cause or provocation?
With the Capellan ‘Mech strength at 26 Regiments (7 of which are mercenaries) this would allow Hanse Davion the greatest gain for the smallest cost. Though the primary reason was that he was in a position to do that which no one has ever done before … the destruction of a rival House, thus promoting him above that of his peers .
With a major thrust upon all Capellan worlds containing ‘Mech forces – in particular Warrior Houses whilst bypassing worlds held by mercenary forces. Prince Hanse Davion and Archon Melissa Steiner-Davion however decided upon a containment posture upon both the Draconis Combine and Free World’s League.
The Free Worlds League issued a secret declaration of neutrality-whilst simultaneously moving their elite forces to the Capellan border.
The Draconis Combine however decided to attack, when they were not attacked by either the AFFS or LCAF forces. Kanrei Theodore Kurita unleashed his new DCMS Ghost Regiments that included many “unknown/Star League” ‘Mechs to the Federated Suns before their appearance. However with the introduction of Star League weapon systems the AFFS and the LCAF contained the DCMS thrusts upon Northwind, Towne, Xhosa III, New Ivaarsen and Kesai IV. With the revelation of AFFS/LCAF forces possessing new weapon systems they counterattacked and stymied the DCMS advance persuading the then Deputy of Military Affairs Theodore Kurita to halt his invasion and request information from their Comstar Representative – they received new ‘Mechs minus the advanced weapon systems – did Comstar provide the new Federated Commonwealth with advanced weapon systems? (refer below)
Prince Hanse Davion, with the appearance of Star League ‘Mechs within the DCMS, the disruptiveness of a communication Interdiction which resulted in the Federated Suns accepting Comstar ‘Mechs and soldiers upon his worlds to guard their HPG stations even the unsolved mystery of the attack upon NAIS at the end of the Fourth Succession War, he realised that ComStar was no longer a neutral party in the Inner Sphere politics but a powerful adversary.
To counter the threat the Prince ordered two operations …. Unleashing his agents from MIIO against ComStar ROM agents , with Archon Melissa Steiner-Davion issuing similar orders to her LIC agents.
His second action was to expose ComStars duplicity, by deceiving the remaining great houses into believing ComStar was rearming certain great houses at the expense of others, by pretending old Star League ‘Mechs (that were discovered within a Prince Richard Davion supply bunker – and subsequently hidden within a NAIS facility) were provided by Comstar – this was achieved by ordering these ‘Mechs painted ComStar White, complete with insignia markings for the Comstar Units positioned near the Taurian Concordat and then Camouflaged colours covered over the ComStar markings, but not so thickly that the ComStar insignia did not show, through he then had them displayed at a press gala, and by using MIIO and LIC agents to spread the word that ComStar itself had provided Davion, Steiner and Kurita with advanced weapons (Star League Era) and weapon schematics thus infuriating Marik, Liao and Kurita – where their ComStar Precentors are called in before their respective leaders to explain this situation.
The War itself
Wave 1, Objectives - The destruction of the Capellan Confederation’s ‘Mech Regiments (and by-passing their Mercenaries) – capturing territory.
Secondary objective – capture as many Capellan Jumpships as possible (restrict Capellan forces movements – interplanetary).
Note:- with the start of the first wave Price Hanse Davion transmitted a communication to all mercenary commands – Informing them to not get involved – an amnesty for any mercenary unit that remains upon their contact world / their contract will be transferred to the Federated Commonwealth , however, if you commit to battle with the Federated Commonwealth we will respond .. exterminating the mercenary unit.
Note:- at the same time an offer is made to the Duchy of Andurien - Magistracy of Canopus alliance (assume they still exist) – to open a second front – any worlds they capture they can keep.
Note:- Romano Liao’s message to all mercenary units – fulfil your contracts … defend the Capellan Confederation … death to Davion / Steiner.
Capella Wave 1 - March 3039
Target World Defending Forces Invading Forces
Kurragin Stapelton's Grenadiers (2nd Btln) 15th Arcturian Guards
Cordiagr Stapelton's Grenadiers (1st Btln) 2nd Robinson Rangers
Capella Blanfords Grenadiers; House Matsukai (2 Btlns) 5th Syrtis Fusiliers RCT; 6th Syrtis Fusiliers RCT; and Grimm Detrmination
No Return House Hiritsu (1st Btln) Eridani Light House (1st Rgmt)
Randor House Hiritsu (2nd Btln) Eridani Light House (2nd Rgmt)
Kashilla Stapelton's Grenadiers (3rd Btln) 12th Vegan Rangers (1st & 2nd Rgmt)
Exedor House Ijori (1st Btln) 12th Vegan Rangers (3rd & 4th Rgmt)
St. Ives Wave 1
Target World Defending Forces Invading Forces
Minnacora Kingston's Legionnaires 20th Avalon Hussars; 36th Lyran Guards RCT
(M) New Sagon 15th Dracon (4th Btln) 2nd Davion Guards RCT
(M) Capricorn III 15th Dracon (3rd Btln) 3rd Crucis Lancers RCT
(M) Relevow 15th Dracon (1st Btln) 2nd Ceti Hussars RCT
(M) Gui-Fu 15th Dracon (2nd Btln) St. Ives Cheveau Lancers
Overton Kamakura's Hussars (2 Btlns) 2nd St. Ive Lancers
(M) Harloc McCarron's Armored Cavalry (1st Btln) 1st St. Ives lancers; Davion Light Guards RCT
(M) Hustoing McCarron's Armored Cavalry (2nd Btln) Davion Heavy Guards RCT
Sindar PDZ Wave 1
Target World Defending Forces Invading Forces
Purvo 2nd Confederation Reseve Cavalry 3rd Ceti Hussars RCT
(M) Homestead Marshigoma's Legionnaires (1 Btln) 4th Donegal Guards RCT
Grand Base House Kamata (2 Btlns); House Fujita (1st Btln) 1st Federated Suns Armored Cavalry; Davion Assault Guards RCT
Holloway House Fujita (2nd Btln) 15th Deneb Light Cavalry
(M) Xieng Khouang Ambermarles Highlanders amnesty
Mitchel House Lu Sann (1st Btln) 3rd Illician Lancers
Jacson House Lu Sann (2nd Btln) 2nd Illician Lancers
Yuris 5th Confederation Reserve Cavalry (1st Btln) 1st Capellan Dragoons
(M) Zanzibar Bullard's Armored Cavalry (1 Btln) amnesty
Rollis Sung's Cuirassiers Hansen's Roughriders
Larsha 5th Confederation Reserve Cavalry (2nd Btln) --
Magistracy of Canopus - 1st Strike - Wave 2 - May / June 3039
Target World Defending Forces Invading Forces
(M) Principia Little Richards Panzer Brigade (3rd Btln) amnesty
(M) Sax Little Richards Panzer Brigade (1st Btln) amnesty
(M) Andermax Little Richards Panzer Brigade (2nd Btln) amnesty
(M) New Reland St. Cyr's Armoured Grenadiers (1 Btln) --
Repulse Kincade's Rangers (1st Btln) Canopian Fusiliers
Renown Kincade's Rangers (2nd Btln) Canopian Highlanders
Drozon House Daidachi (2 Btlns) Magistacy Royal Guards; Ramilie's Raiders
Duchy of Andurien - 1st Strike - Wave 2
Target World Defending Forces Invading Forces
Barras Ishara's Grenadiers (2nd Btln ) 2nd Legionnaires
(M) Niomede Tooth of Ymir (1st Btln) amnesty
Buenos Ares Ishara's Grenadiers (1st Btln) 3rd Legionnaires
(M) Shiba Tooth of Ymir (2nd Btln) amnesty
(M) Sigma Mare Tooth of Ymir (1st Btln) amnesty
(M) Palladoine Lockhardt's Ironsides (3rd Btln) --
Drozan House Daidochi (2 Btlns) Always Faithful
Free World's League Front - 1st Strike - Wave 2
Target World Defending Forces Invading Forces
(M) Frondas Olson's Rangers (2nd Btln) amnesty
(M) Fronde Olson's Rangers (3rd Btln) amnesty
(M) Altoma Olson's Rangers (1st Btln) amnesty
(M) Westerhand Lockhard's Ironsides (2nd Btln) 2nd Hussars
(M) Ito Lockhard's Ironsides (1st Btln) 1st Hussars
(M) Palladaine Lockhard's Ironsides (3rd Btln) 4th Fusiliers
Pella II House Ijori (2nd Btln) 21st Centari Lancers; Blackhearts.
Within the first three months the majority of the Capellan Armed Forces was reeling from the ‘shear’ size and ferocity of the Federated Commonwealth assault, then followed quickly with the Magistracy of Canopus, Duchy of Andurien and the Free Worlds League brought the remaining Capellan forces to their knees.
Liao’s only course of action at this point was to consolidate their remaining forces on two worlds Grand Base and Sian.
Thus by August 3039, the new Federated Commonwealth had a right to be proud. F-C troops had achieved most of their objectives, destroying the majority of the remaining Capellan armed Forces.
Realising the Capellan Confederation were on their knees, and at the urging of Prince Hanse Davion the Magistracy of Canopus, Duchy of Anduren and the Free World’s League stabbed the Cappellan Forces a mortal blow in the back.
On the Sian front the F-C forces blockaded the surrounding Sian systems – consolidating their gains and preparing for the inevitable.
On Grand Base the Assault Guards and the Armoured Cavalry were relieved by both the 4th Donegal Guards and the 15th Deneb Light Guards.
Upon the remaining fronts both sides moved their forces as quickly as possible to gain territory and consolidate the new border.
By early November 3039 the final battle began with Romano Liao refusing to capitulate.
Target World Defending Forces Invading Forces
Sian Red Lancers Davion Assault Guards RCT
House Immara (2 Btlns) 1st Federated Suns Armoured Cavalry
4th Tau Ceti Rangers (1 Btln) Davion Heavy Guards RCT
Misc. (1 Rgmt) Davion Light Guards RCT
Regular forces (20 Rgmts) 2nd Davion Guards RCT
Aerospace (15 squadrons) 20th Avalon Hussars
36th Lyran Guards RCT
1st St. Ives Lancers
1st Kathil Uhlans
A ferocious war in which 10% of the civilian population was killed (note: Chemical warfare by reactionary Capellan Units during the battles would be used) over the four month war which ended with the fall of the palace and the identification of both Romano Liao’s and Tsen Shang’s bodies.
(Note: during the four month elements within the 1st St. Ives Lancers were able to “collect” the two children of the Chancellor of the Capellan Confederation Romano Liao, (without her consent), that being Sun-Tzu Liao and Kali Liao and return them to their aunt Candice Liao on St. Ives (Completed at the direction of Tsen Shang).)
On the 21st February 3040 the Capellan Confederation ceased to exist, with the fall of the remaining Liao Government, and the absorption of their remaining territory into the Federated Commonwealth Magistracy of Canopus, Duchy of Andurien and the Free Worlds League .
With the Fall of the Capellan Confederation the Draconis Combine ceased their offensive action along their border.
The new Free Worlds League March was thereafter established, for the lower half, with their new Liege Lord Duchess Nelitha Green-Davion. Her first action was to rebuild their economy (especially military contractors), for the lower half.
The upper half had been previously given to Duchess Margaret Aten as their new Liege Lord (Margrave).
The Federated Commonwealth were also able to establish multiple new BattleMech Regiments (initially from the former Capellan Military) and from the increased output of their Battlemech factories.
The New Capital of the Federated Commonwealth
3042 – With the fall of the Capellan Confederation the Federated Commonwealth will attempt to elevate their state above that of their pears.
To this end The Federated Commonwealth announces the establishment of a new capital world (to bind together both the houses & their respective governments). Also its proximity to Terra is not lost upon the other Houses.
The New Capital of the Federated Commonwealth was announced to be Rigil Kentarus and was subsequently renamed as Asgardia / Camlann (?) and its capital city of the same name.
Nt: The former Rigil Kentarus received several SLDF bases to bolster Terran defense prior to the Amaris Coup. These bases included several Castles Brian and SDS systems on both the planet and the moon, Riken Minor. These Bases are to be re-established during the construction of the Capital City.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/08/18 03:21 AM
58.175.193.140
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Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/05/18 06:47 PM
58.175.193.140
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As far as I can understand the Capellan Confederation survived only because the writers could not contemplate its complete and utter destruction (As no source book identified who had become the new Duke / Margrave f this area – thus its resurrection was always considered to be a long term objective thus there was no point in providing this information).
In the real word however Hanse Davion would have seen to its removal from the board - the integration of its people and its economy into the new Federated Commonwealth.
This is Davion’s only logical course of action at this time.
Thus by 3050 the AFFC would have an additional 25 to 30 new RCTs and the addition of its former Jump-ships / Drop-ships to transport them to the Clan Front – making their “charge” through the inner sphere even more difficult.
Plus the Federated Commonwealth’s economy would be on a high bull market - with high spending on new military equipment and research and development projects.
Any resurgence of the former Capellan Confederation would thus have to come from dissidents either those disenfranchised by the fall of the Capellan Confederation or from the St Ives ruling family itself – Sun Tzu attempts to reclaim his realm?.
Though it is more plausible at this stage to believe that MIIO / LOKI agents on St Ives would have strict instructions regarding Sun Tzu or his sister Kali, in the event he/she steps out of line … remove him/her permanently.
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
05/07/18 01:29 AM
50.53.22.4
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The reality is: FASA realized only too late it had "written itself into a corner" with 4SW -- not only was this going to end with the CC wiped from the map, but it was going to result in nine kinds of heart attacks from the Political-Correctness Crowd, for reasons which should be appallingly obvious. Hence all the nonsense with the War of 3039, and onwards (you think for one moment Davion wouldn't have blown "Thomas Marik"'s identity in order to put a stop to Guerrero?). By any sane, well-written standard: CC should have been obliterated in 3030, with FWL following shortly thereafter, and finally DC right about the time the Clans show up (and wouldn't *that* be embarrassing -- the Clans show up to reclaim the IS, just in time for Hanse Davion to tell them "Guess who's the new First Lord of a reborn Star League?").
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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ghostrider
05/07/18 02:35 PM
66.74.61.223
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The writers could have used the old bs line of an assassination or even outright revolt of several areas at once to break up the FC. They pretty much did so with the civil war. Something as simple as Katrina Steiner falling to an assassin would have resulted in that. More then a few in the family would have broken the alliance, as well as some in the Suns area.
I do agree the CC should have died in the 4th war, but to be honest, there was so much more that could have been done with it. Even just having Candice Liao run the CC and have her start having issues with Michael Hasek-Davion, instead of having him get killed, could well have set off the excuse for the CC to live, possibly even allying with them to stop the FC.
Yes, the issue of the people revolting against that would be an issue, but having it done, may actually have spurred the other houses to take advantage of the fighting. The DC actually figuring out how to stop the LC, and hit the FS. The FWL would have gained by doing alot more. The area by Terra would have been prime targets, even if it was just to destroy the units there.
Then again, they could have actually had Katrina playing a game with Hanse, and used the alliance to push back her borders with the DC/FWL, then dump the FS. Power corrupts sort of thing.
And that isn't going down the assassination of Hanse.
But the 3039 war shows how little the developers kept with the low numbers of mechs being produced line.
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Requiem
05/07/18 07:58 PM
58.175.193.140
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I agree the writers were lacking in their plot development throughout the entire Inner Sphere history.
Anything is possible – my grievance, however, revolves around the believability that a certain action would occur, and if you make a factual statement, such as the quantity of ‘Mech production in a given realm, then stick to it (own it) and don’t just change it in the future because it has become difficult for your writers when making plot twists (for example McCarron’s Armoured Cavalry – their ability to re-build completely in a post 4th Succession War time – no I don’t think so).
Requiem,
Adelaide Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/08/18 12:34 AM
66.74.61.223
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The fact they had stated in several books, the mech production in the IS barely could keep up with all the losses from raids and such, yet 8 full regiments were made for the 4th war. Now, with the update, which is 9 to 10 years after the 4th war, and they were able to pull enough units to add in not only fixing the damage done in the 4th war, but creating new ones yet again?
But then this is the same team that brought you the stealth skill Morgan Kell used to save the forces on Mallory's World when Ian Davion died, and was learned by Yuringa (Spelling?) Kurita learned and fought Morgan with it. Then Morgan was able to use it against the clans, love to have magic pop up and alter reality.
Though one of the better blunders with the novels was the exploding engines. More then a few pilots were to overheat their non ammo mech to blow up the enemy in a death lock.
But back to the main topic.
The bs of having all invasion officers from the Lyrans meet on one world every day or even week to discuss tactics on worlds that would require multiple jumpships ready for a pony express was crap. The strike killing most of them, driving the Lyrans back was mythical, then when the DC started the counter invasion, Loki disabled his jumpship fleet for it?
(More smoke. People can see the mirrors in our bs.)
The FWL should have actually become the target as the CC would have been destroyed, yet again, had made up their losses without spending alot of money with alot of their production in FC hands. Even building warships.
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wolf_lord_30
05/08/18 01:55 AM
74.214.54.153
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I disagree that the Capellan Confederation would have been wiped out. And I disagree that the writers wrote themselves into a corner.
1) periphery nations first point. They're still around and the major houses can't really get rid of him. Piranha principle. They send resources after them, others come for them in return.
2) CC is bigger than periphery nations, more resources, bigger military.
3) FC goes after CC, the DC would step in and take advantage of the weekend front, the Davion side would take a big hit.
4) FWL, even being enemies with CC, would not sit idly by while their neighbor and smaller nation would be under attack. They would know they would be next. They would concentrate effort on the Lyran side and stall their effort in helping the newly formed alliance.
So if the FC concentrates too much effort in one nation, the others could and would take advantage of it.
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Requiem
05/08/18 03:51 AM
58.175.193.140
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Periphery states are a non-issue for three reasons:- First, the lack of any major weapon manufactories, second the size and combat worthiness of their military and three their strategic positioning in comparison to that of the great houses. In the event either of these factors would change you can be sure one of the great houses would invade. By allowing them (Canopus) to participate in the War they would jump at the chance to get some revenge for past humiliations, at the hands of the Capellans, and the chance of expanding their nation.
The Capellan Confederation is down to only 26 'Mech Regiments (7 of which are mercenary) and the majority of their worlds have only a single battalion of ‘Mechs on them – they are wide open for invasion.
The Federated Commonwealth has 260 plus ‘Mech Regiments – they only need to divert 30 to 40 Regiments to the Capellan Campaign and the remainder can easily defend against a Draconis Combine assault (even with their new ghost ‘mech regiments) as they have only just under 100 'Mech Regiments.
I agree the Free Worlds League would not sit idly by …. They would join in in the feast that is the Capellan Confederation to come, whist at the same time preserving their main border with the Federated Commonwealth by not getting involved. At this stage an alliance with a failed state is a non-issue – Machiavellian theory states that you do not prop up someone on the way out – you stab them I the back as quickly as possible. Thus the aim is to grab as many strategic worlds (location and industries on these planets) as possible as well as any military units fleeing the war to bolster your own military.
Though as stated before if Hanse Davion could destroy a rival great house he would and in this case there is nothing that could stop him – not the remaining other Great Houses nor Comstar (unless they gave the Capellans their ComGuards and this would violate their neutrality with all the Great Houses).
Have a read of the 20 Year Update book No 1639 and you will see how truly vulnerable the Capellans are.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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wolf_lord_30
05/08/18 08:42 AM
74.214.54.153
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You misunderstood my point with the periphery states. They are weak in comparison to the great houses, and yet they are still around. The reasoning behind this falls under the piranha principle. If the great house devotes resources to rid the universe of a periphery state, they leave themselves vulnerable to attack by all others.
The Capellans are larger than the periphery states, and more dangerous. So the amount of resources necessary to truly invade and conquer would leave that nation vulnerable to attack by everyone else.
And no, they wouldn't all gang up on the Capellans.
Here's what could just as easily happen in the BT universe, in my opinion, before any flavor of plots and schemes:
Davion pushes into Liao, gets stalled unless using overwhelming numbers, which takes a lot of time and money to send that many regiments. Kurita takes the opportunity to strike and take worlds from Davion. Marik realizes that the Capellans are being hit hard and understands the implications that they are a barrier between them and Davion and hits at Steiner, embroiling them and not allowing one half of the Federated Commonwealth to participate. The Taurian Concordant doesn't have any love for Davion and feels that they are threatening their way of life with their invasion, accusing them of warmongering and such and sends out their own units to attack Davion. Now, Davion is in a war on 3 fronts, and not doing so great, even if they are taking a few worlds from the Capellans, they realize they are being drained fast and shore up their front against Kurita and the Taurians, only leaving the Capellan front lightly defended because they don't see retaliation. The Capellans may or may not counter attack.
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ghostrider
05/08/18 05:52 PM
66.74.61.223
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The Concordat actually has three mech production facilities atleast in their area. They are all located in the heart of the Concordat, which is the 8 systems in the dust cloud that technically protects them. Unless they changed that fact from the older story line and rules.
The Magistry had one if I remember right, but they were lights with the Shadow Hawk being the heaviest produced by them.
Now as for the periphery states being weak. Compared to most of the houses, that is true to a point. They survive because taking them out means garrisons on every planet you take, as they would keep moving to avoid being pinned down. And it is true the other houses would start testing the borders if they found out you were moving the border defenses back.
The war to finish off the CC would not be the massive invasion like the 4th war. It would probably be more like the plans to take Sarna. Waves of units, with those rotating out, would go back to their posts on the borders, if they were taken from there. I suspect the forces that tend to be deeper in the FS territory, would be brought up. Even that, a small strike on the DC borders would lock down most of that, as they would be expecting a follow up.
That is if the history stayed the same since the original house books came out.
Now the one thing that seems to be missing from the points is the dropship/jumpship issue with the CC. Moving the units around would be a problem without them. So even trying to reinforce one world may not be possible.
It would be likely, Hanse would use militia units to invade with, making the other houses have to figure out which worlds they came from, and try to hit them, hoping they did not move other militia around.
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Requiem
05/08/18 08:26 PM
58.175.193.140
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Consider the overwhelming military capability of the Federated Commonwealth, just look at the 4th Succession War, the new Federated Commonwealth has adequate military resources to take on the other Great Houses (Marik, Liao and Kurita) and win.
Please re-read the above Defending Units – as this came straight out of the 20 Year Update Book #1639
“Mech Strength
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments (including Ghost Regiments)
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 72 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Capellan Confederation 30 Regiments (7 of which are mercenary and I do not include 4 Regiments of McCarron’s Armored Cavalry as they were destroyed during the 4th Succession War and their ability to rebuild after the war is laughable) thus I put them down to 26 Regiments.
ComStar 50 Regiments
Taurian 14 Regiments
Magistracy 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion.
Davion's forces would only require 30 to 40 regiments (out of the 268 regiments) to completely overwhelm the remaining Capellan forces – they only have one battalion to a world as their garrison force – (look at my invasion notes above regarding the defending units and heir size again) sorry but I do not see how they could get bogged down at all – militarily we are looking at a blitzkrieg here not a siege – except when you finally get around to attack Sian.
In all probability the Kuritans will attack however the Federated Commonwealth has sufficient forces that only a couple of worlds may change hands during the War (look at previous wars outcomes).
Yes the Taurians have no love for Davion – so why would they poke the bear and make themselves a target? – their entire strategy has revolved around defence in depth not as an active assault force – they did nothing during the 4th Succession War so why Now?
As for the Canopians – they have no love for the Capellans and if they could get some payback and expand their realm at the same time you can be quite sure they wold take it.
As for using militia forces – I do not think so as you must remember they have Warrior House Units and some of them are elite units – thus they will require elite units to kill them off.
As for the Marik Border – ¾ of it is already against the Federated Commonwealth so why would you engage in a war to prevent the destruction of a rival house – war is a risky proposition at best – it would be more prudent to prepare for the next war to come and this requires factories / raw materials etc. and if they are within the Capellan State, and along your mutual border, why would you just give them to the Davions to bolster their military – it would be more prudent that you would want to take them for your own – therefore the invasion of the Capellan Confederation is clear for all to see that once the Federated Commonwealth invade, on mass, for a second time they will fall – it is not a question of if it is, it is just a question of when.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/09/18 12:34 AM
66.74.61.223
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The Mariks, according to the lore, would rather have the weak CC on their border, giving them some warning as to an invasion from that direction, instead of having the Davion powerhouse.
And the piranha effect requires as many people against your enemy to work. Once you lose one, then that is one less the enemy has to deal with. The civil unrest is not the same as combat units forcing more of the border to be garrisoned.
I understand the overwhelming forces the FC has, but alot of those were along the DC/FWL borders, as well as periphery, and even guarding their own worlds against those within their own borders.
Hesperus, being in the Skye March, was looking for a way to get out of the FC. They could very well have tried at this point and really screwed things up. The fact that the did later on as well as the Davion's Third guards did in the events that would happen.
So alot of their own units were not trustworthy, nor could they be moved, even if loyal, as they guarded their own units in alot of places.
The FWL wasn't the only ones having issues with disobedient civillians. and Katherine was supporting it. It really came out once the FC civil war hit, but she had to be building her base when her mother was alive. Even the Capellan March forces were not as loyal as it sounds in the 20 year update. The ease of move 20 to 30 regiments to deal with them wasn't as easy as it looks to be.
And this is the time period of Walterly running Comstar. She would very well hit Davion forces and make it look like he struck their facilities first, by showing the fake footage, then shutting down all coms in the FC. Not just the FS portion of it.
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Requiem
05/09/18 06:08 AM
58.175.193.140
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In 3039 …..
First, the Free Worlds League no longer has a complete border with the Federated Suns only half of it is covered by the Capellan Confederation – thus there is no warning anymore, thus the remaining Capellan state cannot be used as a shield anymore – it’s not a weak border it’s porous.
Second, as for your piranha effect - it is not applicable / does not work here – it can only work when you have many attacking the one – and in this case who would stand up for the Capellan Confederation if it is attacked by the Federated Commonwealth – the answer is only the Draconis Combine …. Though in reality as DCMS forces cannot reach Capellan space thus they are effectively on their own.
Also there would be no change at all along the border, with regards to military units, as civil unrest will be stopped by the local law enforcement units and not ‘Mech units (hammer to crack an egg).
Third, as for Hesperus …. They have always been loyal to House Steiner …. It is the Isle of Skye that has been agitating for its independence (and invading and trying to take Hesperus by force if it can (refer Grey Death Legion’s end)). At this time they would not ever attempt to leave. Kathrine (Melissa’s Mother) is too beloved by her people for anyone to even contemplate this during this time period of 3039.
(How can you compare what was happening in 3039 to that of 3060 onwards?)
Fourth, at this stage there were no desertions of regular house units in either Steiner or Davion space – so Military loyalty is a non-issue circa 3039.
Also we are talking about Capellan March troops .... attacking and destroying the Capellan Confederation - they would be overjoyed with this .... there would be a massive line at all recruiting stations to join in on the war not the other way around.
Fifth, the ease of moving troops around – what I am suggesting here is not as complicated as that of the 4th Succession War – so this is also a non-issue.
Sixth, how can Waterly use the same trick again that it used during the 4th Succession War? She cant.
Also you must remember Hanse Davion’s little Black HPG Fax Machine Boxes – to ensure an interdiction can never again affect his military every Regiment and every World would have one ( it’s just a question of time and resources). Also she cannot use her ComGuards as they are now out in the open for everyone to see – she uses them and every House will Nationalise their HPG stations in their realm as ComStar has gone from an independent power to an active participant in the game to become First Lord and no House would tolerate this interference.
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/09/18 06:16 AM)
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ghostrider
05/09/18 01:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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The FWL never had a complete border with the FS portion of the FC. The CC was the buffer zone until the 4th war.
It does appear that the older lore for the innersphere is lacking in some of the response. The Skye portion of the LC almost ceeded from the LC in the 4th war. Unless that has been changed in the newer lore. And Hesperus is part of the Skye portion.
Now the only answer to the CC invasion is the DC? I can understand that if you remove any and all raids, pirates and such on all borders. Which would never happen.
What book even suggested all military units were loyal to the leaders of the FC? In the 20 year update, they list more then a few as questionable to the FC rulers. Even with Melissa running the LC part of it. Hell, some in the Capellan march were no loyal to the Davions.
Using future lore to argue some of the points, is the only way to show you it was done. Not a non issue like you seem to think it would be. Comstar did indeed attack the IS and the Clans holdings in the IS. Only this is, time. So ignoring the fact she would have done so, seems to be ignoring some of the facts.
And at this point, Hanse dies of the heart attack, as you pointed out. Do you think the factions that were looking for power in the FC just would have ignored this?
Granted there is the one easy way out of the whole argument. This is your alternative lore, and that makes it what ever you want it to be.
From the looks of it, you seem to want some input or support for it. Otherwise, posting it seems off.
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Requiem
05/09/18 09:15 PM
58.175.193.140
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Remember the timeline is 3039 and before ….
Skye Portion of the LC almost succeeded from the LC in the 4th Succession War.
Refer Aldo Lestrade IV and his free Skye Movement - he was killed in 3029 by his illegitimate son, Clovis Holstein This did not end the Free Skye movement, but it effectively slowed it down for several years. (refer to Sarna.net Wiki Pages) So no it did not almost succeed from the Lyran Commonwealth.
Hesperus II
Greydon Brewer, Duke of Hesperus II and the owner of Defiance Industries - Refer pg 136 House Steiner – The Lyran Commonwealth Book #1621 – he was NOT part of the Skye Separatist movement he enjoyed a good relationship with Katrina Steiner.
Thus your assertions based upon historical fact about Syke and Hesperus II is completely wrong.
As for raids and pirates – this is normal operating procedures throughout this entire age – so how can this stop a major invasion – did it stop the 4th Succession War? – I do not think so – so this point is completely irrelevant.
As for questionable units – refer pages 21 and 22 – of the 20 year update book (#1639) – Regarding those units within the Capellan March – Total ‘Mech Strength 30 Regiments, 1 Battalion – Those questionable were New Syrtis CMM, Hansen’s Roughriders (a Merc unit), 1st Capellan Dragoons and the 11th Donegal Guards – so your point is what?.
Then look at the units I chose for the invasion can you see any of these units are questionable when asked to destroy the Capellan Confederation once and for all. The answer you are looking for is No.
Can you see any unit within the either the Lyran Commonwealth or the Federated Suns who would shed a tear at the destruction of the Capellan Confederation. More likely tankards would be raised to its destruction and every unit would be wishing they were part of that great endeavour.
As for ComStar attacking the Clans – the Clans were an external threat post 3050 not an internal threat 3039 – we are discussing 3039 not 3050 onwards - and attacking a Great House of the inner Sphere – get real, can you ever see them attacking one of the Great Houses at the defence of another Great House (think of the political backlash if they attempted this before you make the remark they would defend the Capellan Confederation).
FACT:- Hanse Davion Died 17 June 3052 – so very much alive in 3039. So Factions looking for an advantage – what advantage????? Also look at his personality archetype – he is an a-typical House Lord in some respects in that he desires to be the First Lord of The New Star League, so the question must be asked as to why would he not remove the Capellan Confederation from the board (thus gaining their economy and ‘Mech production facilities etc. – a feat that no one has ever been able to do so far) if given the chance? The answer can only be yes he would remove them from the board.
As for me arguing for the sake of it – get real – “logic” dictates the destruction of the Capellan Confederation during the 3039 War – the only thing that stopped it was the writers fears – regarding what to do next and that they had to appear to be PC, and killing off the Capellans would "upset" all the PC’s out there so they were allowing them to live which by all logic completely is wrong.
Remember we are discussing a feudal society (look at your medieval history war of the roses / the 100 year war etc.) so killing of an enemy country is completely within the norm.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/09/18 09:23 PM)
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ghostrider
05/09/18 10:42 PM
66.74.61.223
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Actually, pirate raids was part of why Hanse called an end to the war. Not a big part, but with comms down, the raiders enjoyed some extra time on their romps.
Still not seeing the point that even though they have that many regiments, they that was for BOTH sides of the FC. They had that huge border to protect, and even with them all, they still could not stop the raids going on.
The idea that everyone was in love with the FC that lived there shows a misunderstanding of the politics in the IS. It was not as bad as the FWL, but even those with less tolerance for not following the leaders, like the DC with rassehauge, did not stop the rebellions on multiple worlds, forcing garrisons to stay put. Otherwise, the fourth war would have happened alot sooner. Davion would have done it without the Steiners backing them. It would have been smaller in scope, but would still happen.
There is one unit with 4 regiments that would have been saddened by the end of the CC. The Northwind Highlanders for a start. If not for the threat to their civillians on Northwind, they would still be mercenaries for the CC. I am sure there are others, though I don't know what mercs may have formed from the left overs.. and while I am thinking of it, the entire St. Ives home forces would. There is no way, Davion would allow the St. Ives to take over control of the rest. They did not want the destruction of their area.
It was to show you, your idea of them NOT interfering with things is wrong. And with the 3039 war, Fahst would not be part of comstar at the time, so would not have been there to stop anything Walterly would do. The Black boxes were not the instantaneous comms the hpgs are. And they had a limited range, as well as limited numbers even during the 3039 war. It still would not stop whole worlds from falling into ruin from not only any raids that went on, but the lack of drop ships making runs to them. This would actually be a good time for the dissidents in comstar to start the WOB movement and shut it down without the first circuits approval. Even ROM agents might well go rogue.
Comstar could have killed Hanse in the 4th war, but went after the NAIS instead. The imposter death commandos.
And in the feudal society, killing ones leader was completely in the norm, as well as treasonous activities, such as siding with the enemy to outright attacking ones lord forces in your area.
The fact that each march had their own ruling house before becoming a part of the FC still has it's temptations there.
A simple think like Morgan Davion finding out Hanse ordered his fathers death could well have stopped the attack as Morgan went to pay him back for it.
And I agree. With the writers stopping the end of the CC. It should never have survived the 4th war. But suggesting nothing would stop in in 3039 is ignoring the entire history of the IS. A simple hit to kill Hanse at the end of the 4th war could well have voided the entire history afterwards.
The logic that others wouldn't do something, is shown wrong in the future. You want to say it wouldn't happen sooner?
And as I suggested before. Try changing history with Ian Davion. Have him survive Mallory's World and stop the FC from ever happening.
Then again, have someone stop Amaris from killing the first lord in the first place. That destroys all of the games history.
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ghostrider
05/09/18 10:51 PM
66.74.61.223
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Actually, logic would dictate a full scale invasion of the only house that would be difficult to destroy, the DC. The writers saved it, as they could not have the Combine fall in a blitzkrieg style warfare like the fourth war was. They were the ONLY ones that could threaten the FC, going by your own statements. Why leave that to feaster, when you could easily destroy the CC, and the FWL is less likely to do anything, as your agents have the entire area ready to fight the ruling house.
But then that would never happen to the FC. I mean there is no way anyone of them or even a group of them, would think to grab power while the forces normally stationed in their area were gone.
Then the comstar 'gifting' the combine mechs, would have done what you claim Hanse wanted. Showing the duplicity of Comstar. There is even less that would cry about the DC's fall then the CC.
It was stated in one of the books the thought of the periphery states were more of a threat then the CC at the end of the war. There was no reason why sustained raids could not have finished them off, without waiting for 3039.
The history of the FS was built on the long slow destruction of the CC. The alliance was the only thing that made the quick demise possible.
With that, what if the archon said no?
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Requiem
05/09/18 11:00 PM
58.175.193.140
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All I can say is that we will never agree here as to the what ifs history.
We each have our own opinion as what may or may not have happened – getting a consensus will not happen – thus we must appreciate each other’s point of view and keep going forward as we are both making assumptions from a limited amount information that may or may not have affected the overall decision to invade / and if they were finally absorbed into the Federated Commonwealth during the 3039 / 40 war or left alone at that stage.
Thus the question that should be asked is - if the Federated Commonwealth did attack the Capellans who and how could they be stopped form conquering them?
Also if Battletech has taught me anything - you never ever leave an enemy in the rear - you make sure they are dead and buried before you proceed to the alpha target. Thus kill the Capellans first then build up your forces (10years min), strike a deal with the Free Worlds League - then when you have overwhelming superiority in 'Mechs etc. proceed to destroy the Kuritans - as I would want another 30 to 50 RCTs to give me tactical flexibility against the Draconis Combine before I attack (thus a total force of approx. 300 to 320 'Mech Regiment Units within the Federated Commonwealth) as you need to be prudent and flexible when attacking the Draconis Combine.
Though I still believe they should have been invaded – they were a threat that needed to be eliminated - and were very weak from the 4th Succession War - therefore why not take advantage of this?.
Though invading via raiding one planet at a time - you leave yourself open for constant retaliatory raids - it would be more efficient to complete it in one full scale assault. Plus it is more dramatic this way and it would scare (shock and awe) all the remaining houses that Hanse could pull it off - which would stroke his ego.
As for the Archon saying no - he does have enough forces to do it on his own - and he did promise his wife all of the Capellan Confederation - plus as a Lyran (Banking Background) the addition of this economy to the entire Federated Commonwealth - how may companies would like to have reconstruction contracts to repair the former Capellan Confederation this would bolster her economy with the lowest cost. As an all out war within the Draconis Combine would cost how much more in comparison ten / twenty times (?) and what would be the gains (unknown and speculative) (and could he have pulled it off with only the numbers assigned initially - if the Lyrans had not lost their commanders) whereas with the Capellan's it is quantifiable and achievable.
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Edited by Requiem (05/10/18 04:28 AM)
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ghostrider
05/10/18 04:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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The idea that taking care of the strongest opponent and leaving feeble ones to fester, as they are not a real threat is why the CC would be left alone in the 3039 war.
I do agree it would be destroyed sooner or later.
But I do have a question about being the first lord. Why do you think Walterly of Comstar would not have taking the opportunity to remove Hanse, promoting herself as the first lord, with the backing of the Comguards, Rom, and shutting down the entire comms network?
A simple deal with the DC and FWL to keep the comms open for them, could very well have them strike at the FC. And the periphery, to my knowledge, has HPG's administered by Comstar could well have been enticed to strike as well. Even the promise of upgrading their tech to Star League, or doing as they did in the CC buy helping them build new factories and train their techs to fix it is another factor that seems to be missing. The black boxes were not available in the numbers to deal with the numbers of attacks that (could) have resulted from this.
The issue with the archon saying no, meant the alliance, not the war. Hanse would never have given them the Chaos march, if he even did go into the war.
The losses from hitting the DC would have been greater, that is true. But removing their forces, and taking worlds would lessen them as a threat to the FC. The CC was still no a part of the FWL, so some of his border was buffered by the CC. It is highly unlikely the CC would allow FWL forces to move thru his area. As you said yourself. They did not have the forces to really do much be defend. The LC was not so hateful of the CC as the FS was, but the DC was an enemy to both. If not for the failure of them to take the worlds closest to terra, the DC would have lost a lot more.
And yes, the writers got smart to realize this would be the end of the IS conflicts as the FC would destroy the others eventually.
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Requiem
05/10/18 08:25 PM
58.175.193.140
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Quote “The idea that taking care of the strongest opponent and leaving feeble ones to fester, as they are not a real threat is why the CC would be left alone in the 3039 war”.
Not a real threat? Leave them alone in the 3039 war? ….. Really, have you learnt nothing about politics / strategy and tactics?, go back and re-read both Machiavelli’s the Prince and Sun-Tzu’s the Art of War - First, you NEVER EVER leave an enemy in the rear no matter how weak they are, you secure your rear FIRST. Then, and only then, do you prepare and determine an adequate strategy for dealing with the strongest army (Look at Napoleon and the Battle of Waterloo as an example of not dealing with a weaker force ) . And, second, you do understand War is the ultimate gamble there is no certainty that you will win – attacking the Draconis Combine your outcome is an unknown and speculative outcome, as to the number of worlds you will be able to conquer, the number of planets that have vital ‘Battlemech / aerospace / Dropship production / repair facilities you will obtain, and the amount of damage the DCMS will inflict upon the invading army of the Federated Commonwealth (can you say your army will be able to fight another war with the FWL once you have attacked the DC – how soon will the FC forces be ready for a second war post DC War? ); whereas attacking the Capellan Confederation is a quantifiable, your outcome - you will be able to have their complete production /repair facilities – the damage to the FC army is acceptable and you will be able to fight again. Thus this is why it wold be destroyed sooner not later ….
Removing Hanse through assassination is one thing – with the right assassin – maybe she could have.
Though let us consider the ramifications – If Hanse is assassinated – would this stop the mighty FC from the future conquest of the CC – the answer is NO – his wife Melissa (or their Regent) would pick up the torch (and the plans for the invasion) on behalf of Hanse and Mellissa’s Children - therefore to secure their future as First Lord of the Star League they would attack the CC.
If the assassin missed and was captured – what would Hanse Demand from ComStar to keep this quiet – you can bet it wold be higher than the 13 Ghost Legions the DC received … it would be payback time for the interdiction, the false Death Guard attack and forcing ComGuard forces on his world …. The complete scientific / engineering knowledge of the Star League and the ability to manufacture all of it could be asked …. They could become enslaved to Hanse Davion rather than risk ComStar becoming Nationalised by each Great House if their attempted assassination became common knowledge (and this could be a very real possibility).
As for shutting down the entire HPG network – the benevolent vision of Comstar that they have worked so tirelessly to promote – gone … never to be recovered – replaced with suspicion and distrust – and in all probability Comstar’s HPG stations will be Nationalised into each Great House –and the invasion of Terra by all Great Houses would occur. Would she risk this just to kill Hanse?
As for Comstar promoting an all-out war with the Federated Commonwealth – again they moving from an independent organisation to an active participant. Something they have never done in the past – something Blake’s writings strictly forbid – would the first circuit and the majority of the acolytes of Comstar (as they are a quasi-religious order) approve such a drastic move that their “Saint” Blake forbid? Remember what happed to ComStars Leader because she leaked the plans of Melissa's travel (and the Kell Hounds rescuing her) .....would they accept this a second time and throughout the Inner Sphere?
As for the Archon saying no as part of the alliance – this could have stopped him I agree – but why wold it? The economy and army of the CC can be dealt with. With a limited amount of troops causing minimal disruption to the border forces along the both the FWL and DC border – there is vast wealth in the CC and it can be taken so why not just take it?
AS for the Chaos March – again this is during the Clan Wars not 3039 so this has no point here.
Quote, “The losses from hitting the DC would have been greater, that is true. But removing their forces, and taking worlds would lessen them as a threat to the FC”.
Think about America Vs. Russia or China even - they are a threat why don’t we take them out – mutually assured destruction M.A.D. – the same for the FC and the DC an all-out war of destruction between the two would result in both being destroyed as an effective fighting force circuit 3039.
As for part of the CC buffeting the FWL – the most important part – the Capital and the Marik Commonwealth is not – it is only the rear area that is buffeted –the Duchy of Andurien – and they have been the same as the Skye Separatists – a rebel state advocating separation . Thus with the FC on their border they would have to become a permanent FWL member or risk becoming part of the FC. Thus the Captain-General of the FWL may view this as a good way to shut them up for good.
Yes, the DC is a threat to both the LC and FS – however politically and strategically there is a time and a place to deal with them – they are the strongest remaining enemy and it wold take a much larger force than what they have now to deal with them ( you would need a minimum of a three to one ratio when attacking i.e for their 100 'Mech Regiments you would need 300 ' Mech Regiments - basic strategy - in dealing with he DC on its own) – as politically they can only be brought to heal when they are completely vanquished. Thus the FS/LC alliance would have to have a vast increase their standing army, as it stands now, to finally deal with them.
Thus with the Battlemech production facilities located in the CC this could become a reality within a shorter time frame than without them. Think of the CC as a short term goal, The CC conquest for the utilisation of their factories to achieve the long term goal - establish a larger army that will be used to invade an conquer the DC. Thus achieving the goal as First Lord.
The FWL they could be dealt with politically – a marriage between heirs and the joining of their states could have been a political eventuality.
As for the writers – this is supposed to be a realistic world with the aim of one house finally re-establishing the Star League – not an eternal battlefield of misery and suffering. Or is this what you want a story of eternal war where your soldiers move from one battlefield to the next with no hope of peace? The five houses locked in eternal war .... is this really what you want?
A Marik / Steiner / Davion could then wed a Kurita (by force just like England / France post Agincourt) and we would have a star League - as long as Comstar decides not to initiate a Jihad as a side war on the road to peace.
The writers could then have skipped a generation and moved to war between the Clans and the new Star League in the deep periphery - Warships Vs. Warship - something like the Roughnecks - Bugs Vs. Humans or Exo-Squad Humans Vs. Neo Sapiens or even humans Vs Aliens if they were so desperate to keep the wars going.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/10/18 09:06 PM)
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Requiem
05/11/18 05:17 AM
58.175.193.140
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Additional thoughts on the above discussion:-
Assassination -
You must remember assassination rarely if ever achieves its desired outcome - Look what happened when Arch Duke Ferdinand was assassinated, by pure chance, we got WWI.
In addition who would ComStar pin the assassination on? and why did that person assassinate Hanse Davion? - whoever and for what reason would lead to an all out war with the FC - so again who would this be against?
Assassination could lead to outcomes no one is prepared for .... thus this must be wielded with extreme care.
Post Reformed Star League -
With the reforming of a new Star League, this does not mean all wars within the Inner Sphere will Stop.
The Star League will not be able to stop ...
Dukes who would want to expand their borders or destroy their rivals or attempted secessionists plots from the new Star League ;
The Periphery itself - will the New Star League want to absorb the Periphery realms just as the old Star League accomplished. Mass wars on the border again.
The expansion of the Star League - explorer corp. finding new planets - followed by people - followed by corporations - range wars ensures - this is followed by the Star League Army to restore law and order (establish tithes to the Star League).
So there is still many battles that could ensure - the establishment of a new Star League is not the end of the game or the history of the original five states. It is just a new plot twist.
I should also make a point as to how the ruler of the new Star League rule - most would assume with absolute authority - however what if the people demand a "magna carta" and rules / limitations are put in place as to how he can rule - what if he has to have an executive council made up of people from all the former houses?
Depending on what these rules are limited war between dukes could be legal as the law permits them to retain their own military ....
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/11/18 05:34 AM)
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ghostrider
05/11/18 12:24 PM
66.74.61.223
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Blaming anyone they wanted to. Kurita would be highly likely, but they could blame one of the high brass in the inner ring of the Davion military. Kill the person they blamed and plant evidence on them.
For all this alternative planning, you haven't come up with anything like this.
And massed wars on the borders? You stated they were not a threat to the FC. Only the Turian Concordat would last a while, and that is due to their area in the dust cloud.
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Requiem
05/11/18 06:56 PM
58.175.193.140
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Blaming someone and planning evidence …. OK.
But you do know that even now police agencies /advertising companies/electoral agencies can psychologically profile you with a high degree of accuracy – guess how accurate it could be in 3029? Extremely high sound right?.
Planting evidence is not as easy as all the sitcoms would have you believe – also what if they were caught planting the evidence – MIIO is not to be considered a mundane security organization – their professionalism is second to none.
And consider this even if the evidence points one way, this does not mean the state will use it that way.
Consider this as an application of “Fake News” in getting the people behind you plan…. Consider when President Kennedy was assassinated …. What would have happened if Jackie went in front of the media, with her children, and stated she had evidence to the effect that “this group of people” assassinated my husband and your president ….. now consider at the same time if Mellissa did this with her children in tow … who would the people believe? The majority (99.9%) would believe Melissa … and you can be sure the repercussions would not be to Comstars’ favour ….
So yes there would be a plan for this …. I however didn’t discuss it (as above) …but you can be sure someone within MIIO would have a plan for all eventualities that could be thought up … this is why government agencies have ‘think tanks’, to put forward all the worst things that could have happened and thus create the contingencies necessary and ensure they are in place and ready to go to ensure their version of events is the accepted version of events.
…. And yes there will be a plan to get his news to all the people on all the planets despite Comstar …. However, if Comstar didn’t allow this news out how guilty would they appear to everyone?
Remember don’t believe everything that you see or read in/on the media …. How much of it even now is “fake news”?
Massed wars on the borders – can you please elaborate on this point – who would attack the FC 3039 if they attacked CC – in other words who would try to support the CC in this time of mass invasion – please not only state who but also expand on this point as to why, as I explained my points quite clearly.
As for the Truian Concordat – I am not suggesting that the FC would invade them during the 3039 war … so why are you bringing them into this? ….. I only made the point that once the Star League and the First Lord was established they may want to reunify the human race under one banner …. That of the star league …. So your point is what with regards to the 3039 invasion of the CC?
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/11/18 06:58 PM)
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Requiem
05/11/18 08:30 PM
58.175.193.140
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Sorry, I may have missed your point ….
Were you suggesting that the assassination of Hanse Davion and the framing of a third party would lead to an amended war plan other than the CC?
First, why would someone else frame a third party (who would it be?) to stop the invasion against the CC - logic would dictate only the CC would do this.
Second, you do realise that these facts are all mutually exclusive. In that the assassination of Hanse, the framing of a third party would not necessarily stop the war/ invasion against the CC? (as stated above)
The plans are set … why deviate from them … ? …. So why would the FC deviate from the invasion of the CC?
Or are you suggesting that Comstar would assassinate Hanse, frame the DC, so that the FC would go to war against the DC rather than invade the CC.
You do realise that the FC was able to invade both the DC and CC and fight off the FWL all at the same time during the 4SW – because going down this path of assassinating Hanse, framing the DC all you will get the 5SW.
The FC has forces to complete both the invasion of the CC and at the same time invade the DC in reprisal for the assassination of Hanse.
Also, why would the FWL get involved in the 5SW – the 4SW was disastrous for them and I doubt they would want a repeat of this war as they are still trying to get over the last SW.
Requium
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/11/18 10:13 PM
66.74.61.223
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I did suggest comstar could assassinate Hanse. They had motive and the ability to do so. They could frame anyone, from the coordinator in the DC, to anyone in the FWL, even one of the generals that sit in with him in the Fox's Den.
A disgruntled field marshal makes a great scapegoat.
And it does not even have to happen during the invasion but any time before it.
And the detective works of the IS including Davion is not the all knowing system you make it out to be. If it was, then Comstar would have been figured out for the raid on NAIS HQ. I am not up on after Victor went Comstar, but it sounds like he never found out that little secret.
And the assassination might well have been what cause Hanse's heart attack in the clan war. There are things now that can do it, so it is assumed better methods should be around in the 3000's. And accidents do happen.
The question of the Turian Concordat comes from you asking who would get involved if comstar did strike at Davion. Simple logic of you want comms, then perform some strikes. Otherwise remain in the dark. More elegantly worded, but basically the same thing. As I said with high tech as well. Nice prize to help keep Davion out of the Concordat. Even going as far as supplying warships would work.
Oh yeah. Comstar controlled the engines that went into almost all innersphere warships... hmmm.
You keep saying it is the only logical thing to do is finish off the CC, when it isn't. The DC is the most logical, as the CC could only raid. Not invade, take worlds and actually hold them.
And one last thing for invasion of the CC. A simple message to the CC from comstar who would find out about it, and maybe even 'loan' some nukes to jump into the invasion fleet and destroy it like that isn't beyond being done. The CC wouldn't really have much to lose. And that could go for dropping them in other systems as well. But this is more unlikely then not.
One more note. The FWL did not really do much in the 4th war. It was not the forces of the FC that held them off, but the lack of commitment on Mariks part to get involved. Had they really been motivated, the LC would have lost a lot more worlds.
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AmaroqStarwind
05/12/18 01:34 AM
99.203.154.134
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Taurian, not Turian. This isn't Mass Effect.
And if I am correct, there are out-of-universe sources that state that Hanse Davion's heart attack was stress-induced. His luck had just catastrophically run out at the wrong time.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
ghostrider
05/12/18 02:33 AM
66.74.61.223
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I got the warship timeline screwed up for comstar making the engines for the innersphere.
But since comstar has warships the entire succession war period, it would not be so hard to believe they could resurrect the Minnesota Tribe and run thru the FS portion of the FC taking out production and ending Hanse Davion before heading back out towards the Concordat. A good starting point would be Galax and the ship yards there. Complete destruction with the warships firepower. Kathil would be another good target to help limit Davions strength. And it could be done before the 3039 war, if they got wind of the attack. Hell even during an invasion would make it even easier.
With the other houses, they would have to get involved in any strikes against the CC. Otherwise, they would be next. That part of the logic would always be there. So even a hitting the CC would start SW5.
Logic would suggest with the CC gone, more units would be on the DC/FWL borders as well as the periphery. Less needed for the deep worlds.
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Cray
05/12/18 01:45 PM
67.8.228.37
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Quote:
Blaming someone and planning evidence …. OK.
Consider this as an application of “Fake News” in getting the people behind you plan…. Consider when President Kennedy was assassinated ….
I understand the comparisons are all in relation to BT, but you might want to steer away from any discussions that trigger Posting Rule 3.
Also, after reading a few other posts I think I'm going to temporarily lock this thread and let everyone talk about other, less stressful topics for a while.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (05/12/18 01:50 PM)
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Requiem
05/16/18 07:10 PM
58.175.193.140
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Thanks for the comments they are an interesting read, please allow me to debate these points …
“Historically, the side with the numerical superiority decides when to start a war”.
(From the anime Log Horizon)
Yes assassinations have occurred in the Battletech universe before, usually as a means of transferring power from one individual to the next. However, as stated before assassinations rarely if ever produce the outcome they were intended to create.
Therefore, would an assassination stop an invasion of the CC? I have yet to be convinced it would.
As for The Taurian’s defence policy with regards to the FS, this has always been defence in depth together with a minimum amount of involvement with the Federated Suns other than the occasional raiding party – a successful policy to date as they have yet to be invaded.
Strategically, by acquiring the CC economy, military industrial complex, salvaged army and their merchant navy (both jump-ships and drop-ships) within ten to fifteen years the FC would have enough forces to invade the DC – as from what I have read on infantry doctrine, it suggests a preference of a 3:1 ratio is required when organising a military operation (i.e. for one of their soldiers you should have three of yours), thus giving your side a strategic and tactical advantage when in combat. As it is my belief that, as at 3039, the FC only has enough forces to wound the DC not to conquer it – thus any war would end in a stalemate and only a change in border – therefore the necessity of acquiring additional RCTs to make sure the conquest of the DC will be successful and completed with the minimal amount of damage on both sides. As the aim of any House Lord is the conquest of his/her rival, and it is not to just weaken them over time and this is what additional forces would provide the FC in a future conflict with either the FWL or the DC.
Together with my original point – the ability to conquer another house – this is an opportunity I doubt any ruler (with a track record of conquest) would be willing to give up … the ability to elevate himself or herself above those of his/her piers. The temptation would be too great not to invade and conquer.
As for the final point regarding the use of former SLDF warships, they were never utilized as it is presumed no one can manufacture them. A point to be encouraged not disproved.
As for others coming to the aid of or the CC when invaded by the FC for a final war of conquest – both the FWL and the DC require time to build up their forces as a future war of conquest is now inevitable – therefore the question must be asked as to why waste resources saving the CC?
In attempting to save the CC now the chances of success are slim to none – it would be more feasible for each house to rebuild their economy and create new units that could defend the realm in the future inevitable conflict.
Therefore as per the above quote the FC, “being the numerically superior side”, would decide when to invade either the DC or the FWL - when it has the resources to complete the final action in one war rather than transferring the succession war to a future generation, as the future House Lord, to complete as a parent would want to save their children from the burden this would bring them.
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/29/18 12:56 AM
66.74.61.223
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Interesting as the Taurian Concordat did invade the FC's capellan march in the 3067 era. At least according the wiki here. So the suggestion they would not do so was in error.
It was further in the future then the 3039 war, but it is another example of something that would never happen, actually doing so.
And one more thing to realize with the 20 year update. The worlds listed as the forces being there, only used those worlds as home bases. They were spread out to worlds around them, rarely being in the regimental form. The concentrated weakness idea of old would not have been repeated with the war.
We do know comstar was working against the FC, as the mechs the DC recieved was the material proof of that. Handing over military intel would have been a no brainer, and even with the shadow war, the DC, and others still had their agents doing their homework.
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Requiem
05/29/18 04:36 AM
58.175.193.140
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First let us look at the wider situation
3039 –
The Federated Commonwealth is established out of the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth.
We have just completed a Succession War in which the Capellan’s have lost half their realm.
They are now down to only 26 ‘Mech Regiments (7 of which are mercenary) thus they only have a house force of only 19 Regiments to hold their entire border.
As per the 20 year update The Capellan March had 30 ‘Mech Regiments, 1 Battalion on its own; The Terra Firma Operations area 26 ‘Mech Regiments; and the Liao Command area has 6 Mech Regiments.
Utilizing these forces on their own they would overwhelm the Capellan Confederation’s military.
Whereas, 3067 –
The Federated Commonwealth has just gone through a violent Civil War – and were are now in the Jihad era. At which time the Taurian’s are using nukes! On a very much reduced and damaged Federated Suns Military. (thus it can be argued that they are engaging FS forces only when this opportunity arises for them to do so)
However, when the Federated Commonwealth is at a high of 3039 – 268 ‘Mech Regiments – would the Taurian’s risk an all-out war with the FC? Ans. – No, they would not (and did not initiate a war) as they would also be rolled over (given enough time and the will to do so within the 3039 era).
Yes the DC did receive ‘Mechs from ComStar – however this was for a quid pro quo – the establishment of an independent Rasalhague. Which could be considered to be Comstars answer to a replacement state, for the Capellan Confederation.
That is even Comstar realised that, by 3039, the Capellan state was a lost cause, the Federated Commonwealth were in a position to conquer them and rather than support a lost cause with advanced ‘Mech technology … lets create their replacement state far away for the Federated Suns and Hanse Davion … thus they established Rasalhague the replacement Capellan State (whom they could assist in the future together with the DC).
Yes, I agree, these world noted in the 20 year update were their home worlds, however this does not change the number of their available forces in comparison to that of the FC forces that would be arrayed against them in a final war of conquest.
Davion Spies would have noted any change in their garrison world and if they are amalgamating any forces … this would only increase the time of any battles in the overall war … it would not however change the overall fact that the Capellan Confederation would fall in a war on conquest in 3039/3040.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/29/18 12:17 PM
66.74.61.223
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Alternative view of Comstar and the CC. The fact the CC did not have any real access to terra, trying to move military units like regiments of mechs to help bolster the CC like it did the DC could not have been hidden.
This does not stop them from helping the CC rebuild, especially later, as the CC somehow manages to not only build the Achilles which according to the books, was more high tech then the confederation was able to, but also warships. Weither WOB or comstar resources were used is questionable, though if they thought the CC was done, they would never have risked having their fingerprints, ie the tech itself as well as the drives for the warships, to fall into the FC's hands.
Not sure if it was just the FS portion of the FC or the entire IS had to rely on comstar to build the engines for the warships as the Corvette Fox claims or not. It not, then the engine statement above is obsolete.
Rasalhague was anti DC for the most part, paying lip service to keep them free. So if they were to help anyone, it would be the FC if it came down to a war they know the DC would lose territory. Or stay out of it. They would not assist the DC. Well beside like the CC and create a buffer the FC/DC would have to go around to attack each other.
Except for a few things, I do see where logic suggest some things would happen, I think taking down the strongest force against you is more likely then the smaller, weaker states. As you suggest, you could take them out with relative ease later.
Despite their working together during the 4th war, the CC and FWL were not really working together. They don't support each other either. The CC would not allow FWL units thru it to hit FS worlds. That alone made it worth leaving in place.
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Requiem
05/29/18 01:42 PM
58.175.193.140
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Interesting points …
However let us consider human nature … (In this particular case Hanse Davion)
If a warlord had the chance to kill his rival and take over this realm now and then lord it over everyone else – or alternatively put that to one side and attack a stronger more resilient foe and in all likelihood a change in border worlds will be the only eventually – which would be the most likely scenario?
If it was me I would want to be able to lord my success over everyone else …. Thus Attack the CC … basic human nature ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
05/29/18 05:54 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
Interesting as the Taurian Concordat did invade the FC's capellan march in the 3067 era. At least according the wiki here. So the suggestion they would not do so was in error.
In all fairness, the Taurians only invaded the Federated Suns after WoB framed the FS for bombarding the Concordat's capital with asteroids, killing millions. Further, the Taurians had had an exceptionally rabid anti-FC government in power for some years, one that was very good at ignoring evidence that didn't fit their mindset about the FS.
As things went, it wasn't a very successful invasion. If the Federated Suns hadn't been exhausted from the FedCom civil war (over a third of its forces gone), engaged in conflict with the Draconis Combine, battling the Capellans, and trying to liberate New Avalon from a surprise WoB invasion, then the Taurians would've been brushed off. Even so, the handful of mercs sent to deal with the Taurians almost defeated the entire Concordat. The Concordat's military just wasn't built to fight offensive wars, let alone hold ground in the hostile FS worlds they took.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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AmaroqStarwind
05/29/18 07:41 PM
13.84.155.127
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Makes sense to me.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
ghostrider
05/30/18 09:56 PM
66.74.61.223
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On January 23rd, 3067, the Taurian Concordat launched an invasion of the Capellan March.[7] The Fighting Urukhai, a mercenary unit fleeing from civil war, attempted to land on the capital of Taurus. The mercenaries thought to find sanctuary and negotiate a contract with the Concordat. The Taurians, fearing this was an invasion, destroyed the mercenary unit and all of their dependents (including their children). What Urukhai forces survived the Taurian attack executed a suicidal assault on the Taurian capital in revenge, damaging some of the world's civilian infrastructure. In retaliation, Taurian Protector Grover Shraplen authorized an assault against worlds in the Capellan March.
Duke George Hasek, now a Federated Suns war hero, sent a task force to deal with this invasion. Instead of countering this Federated Suns task force as ordered, The Taurian Pleiades Lancers attacked their ancestral homeworld in the Pleiades Cluster. This diversion of the Lancers left the Taurian supply lines open to attack and allowed the Davion troops of the Capellan March to liberate their worlds easily. By the end of 3067, only two systems in the Capellan March were still contested by the Taurians.
This is from the wiki. I would think the Wob thing is getting mixed up, though it does suggest that using the Concordat against davion earlier in the story line was more then possible. They started their thing at the end of that year.
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Requiem
06/02/18 08:39 PM
58.175.193.140
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Is this right ... press on … straight ahead … 3067
Dilemma … can you say what happens in 3067 will affect that of 3039 …. the future affects the past … can this be right?
3039, War / conquest – the ability to achieve the state’s (the ruler’s would be more to the point) political ambitions.
What is their political ambition – expansion of the realm – technological (including the military industry) – expansion of their economy …
All this can be achieved and more with the conquest of the CC – and it is achievable considering their limited military
So … I still propose that the writers are wrong the target of the 39 war as written – DC- is in error the true target should have been the CC and its total annihilation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/04/18 03:36 AM
58.175.193.140
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And now for the second topic – How would Hanse Davion Lord it over everyone with the fall of the CC?
Simple, a new capitol world very near Terra .....
With the fall of the CC and the establishment of the Terran Corridor, why was there never any discussion regarding the establishment of a third Capitol World within the Terran Corridor as a symbol to link both houses – FS and LC as one FC.
This symbol would have been seen as a unifying factor for both the FS and the LC. From a political and cultural standpoint – each state has its Capitol – however for all joint issues there is now a third world (in the middle) ….. each state could appreciate this factor.
And its Location near Terra would have sent shock waves through the remaining two great houses (FWL and DC) – as well as that of ComStar.
As now there is a large “neon sign” for all to see .... “we will be the next Lords of a unified Star League” with the establishment of this new capitol world as their symbol.
One can only wonder why this was never even discussed or even implemented?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/04/18 05:38 PM
66.74.61.223
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The side with the superior numbers starts a war?
Both World wars were started by those that readied for it, but were far from superior numbers.
Revolts and rebellions tend to be inferior as well, yet all have reshaped the landscape.
And that is as far as the real world will get into this.
Part of the economy is correct, but not all of it. Invading a few worlds that have the factories would work, but with the entire confederation, you actually lose to the need of having to rebuild there. And having a full border with the FWL isn't as great as you make it sound. The FWL will not use the CC to strike or invade it as the agreement forced by the combine would prevent it.
The FWL would gain if they had invaded, making it more likely, they would have done it before the FC.
The FC would have had that superiority on the DC had comstar not giving it mechs. And without using the criminal organizations to form others, the FC would have succeeded in at least removing the fangs of the DC. Which is what you want to do. Make sure all around you have no choice but to let you do as you want. Basically, bullies making the school yard theirs. Divide and conquer.
That does work with removing threats, but then the Taurians might have been the place to start. No more pirates and worries on the periphery side, means more troops elsewhere. Then again, hitting the FWL and removing their contact with the DC, and the nice factories it has would have been a good target as well.
I guess the size of the FC was a hinderance as well. All those worlds needed guarding, and guessing conventional forces weren't good enough. You may have the troops, but when you need a company to guard each city, then something small like Rhode Island starts holding back troops. That isn't even getting into New York or other places that have multiple cities in one general location. The greater Phoenix area is a good one. Over a dozen cities bordering each other, so a regiment would have to be there, just to cover them. How would you do that to hundreds of worlds?
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Requiem
06/06/18 05:05 AM
58.175.193.140
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Superior numbers also equates to superior weapon systems as well!
Quote: Invading a few worlds that have the factories would work, but with the entire confederation, you actually lose to the need of having to rebuild there
Question, how much damage do you think would occur when either the FC or the FWL invaded and conquered the CC?
As for agreements – at a State level – they are just words on a piece of paper – not even worth the paper they are written on, that is unless it is politically convenient at the time for the State to abide by it …. However, if this is not so you can be sure either party would ignore the agreement.
As for the FWL invading the CC before the FC – yes I agree this could have happened but once they crossed the line you can bet the FC would soon thereafter attack the CC as well (Land / industry grab as quickly as possible)
Divide and conquer – yes this is important – but geographically they are already divided by the Terran corridor.
Militarily though I still believe that conquering the CC – amalgamating their military into the FC – adding their military industrial complex (Cataphract / Raven etc.) – their economy – their Jump-ships and Dropships into the FC then increasing the size of the FC’s standing army would in the long term provide the FC with the best opportunity to invade and conquer the DC in one war rather than multiple wars the writer’s war of 3039 is suggesting (stalemate and a change in border only – then another war stalemate and a change in border only – repeating the 1SW though to the 4SW again and again….)
As for the FWL – would they not be more favourable to a wedding rather than a mass FC invasion? (a political solution rather than a military solution)
As for securing the border worlds – the FC’s military strength is adequate (large enough) to pin down both the FWL and the DC military with enough to left over to destabilize their military through raiding. (Keeping both the FWL and the DC military on the back-foot) whilst at the same time guarding their most important worlds.
As per the 20 Year Update Book #1639 - “Mech Strength for each house was ….
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments (including Ghost Regiments)
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 72 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Capellan Confederation 30 Regiments (7 of which are mercenary and I do not include 4 Regiments of McCarron’s Armored Cavalry as they were destroyed during the 4th Succession War and their ability to rebuild after the war is laughable) thus I put them down to 26 Regiments.
ComStar 50 Regiments
Taurian 14 Regiments
Magistracy 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion.
Thus post 4SW with the fall of the CC – the question is therefore how many of the former CC units can be amalgamated into either the FC or the FWL armies?
And/- how many industrial complexes are added and what is their rate of production to assist with the expansion o their armies?
Together with the addition on an entirely new navy – this would provide either the FC or the FWL with an added degree of flexibility when moving their armies…
Can we now get back to the establishment of a third capitol world for the FC .... very close to that of Terra ....?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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wolf_lord_30
06/06/18 11:25 AM
74.214.54.153
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Quote:
As per the 20 Year Update Book #1639 - “Mech Strength for each house was ….
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments (including Ghost Regiments)
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 72 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Capellan Confederation 30 Regiments (7 of which are mercenary and I do not include 4 Regiments of McCarron’s Armored Cavalry as they were destroyed during the 4th Succession War and their ability to rebuild after the war is laughable) thus I put them down to 26 Regiments.
ComStar 50 Regiments
Taurian 14 Regiments
Magistracy 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion.
McCarron's Armored Cav was not destroyed in the 4th Succession War. They suffered losses, and they did more damage than they took. Also, during the war, they set up trading companies and recruited from all over, including Solaris to help rebuild their personnel losses. They had a trade agreement with the Taurians for extra mechs, and got equipment from other houses. Plus they expanded their repair capabilities. They did not want to be reliant of their Capellan employers for anything and were becoming a self suffectient outfit.
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ghostrider
06/06/18 01:57 PM
66.74.61.223
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The damage to the worlds being taken by the FC/FWL may not be from the invaders, but the idea of scorched earth on the CC side of it. And that doesn't change the implication that the CC worlds were backwater worlds except for the factory worlds. At that doesn't include any strikes from rebellions or commandos.
And I do agree if the FWL started taking worlds, the FC would as well. But the comment of FWL using the CC to strike at the FC was more of saying the FC was not likely to face anything but CC/mercs in that area.
Now with the taking the factories and facilities to help build the FC should have been done in the 4th war, especially Sarna itself. Removing all jumpship production from the CC would almost guarantee they would have to limit any sort of military response except their defensive side. But that would have even further destroyed the writers ability to stop the FC from being the 'sole survivor' so to speak.
As for taking out the weakest link, the CC would be right for the IS, but some periphery states on both sides of the FC should have been done before the CC. No factories in some, but just removing the 'piranha' abilities would be there.
The superior numbers mean superior weapons doesn't really fit. The clans are superior tech, yet the IS hell, even the FC alone had more numbers then the clans. Comstar had less numbers and better tech. The fact stealth armor was researched in the CC helps a little, but that is about the only advantage they had, and that wasn't that great.
In the end, the League was outnumbered by the other houses.
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Requiem
06/06/18 06:57 PM
58.175.193.140
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Wolf_lord_30 please read my post entitled …
RE: Alt. History 4th Succession War 5th / 6th Wave - Assault upon Sarna
As far as I am concerned MAC should never have gotten off Sarna – if they did only about one Batt. At a maximum would have.
Look at it this way if you were a Marine commander coming to the aid of besieged Marine unit and you found them virtually wiped out, would you just let the enemy walk away ? …… HELL NO …. You would hunt them down until not one was left alive …. This is how it should have been written …. Thus showing the writers inability to understand a situation, the relief forces available to attack the retreating MAC and the mindset of any Davion Commander when faced with the situation he/she would have found on Sarna and therefore write the story accordingly.
As for MAC being able to replenish their ‘Mech numbers post 4SW –this again is the writers making things up to fit their narrative – Think about it .... all sates, especially the CC, have lost large numbers of ‘mechs - basic supply and demand theory comes in here – All House states would be purchasing all ‘mechs first thus reducing the supply numbers down to nil (or almost nil.). As for mercs - demand would go through the roof. Therefore the price for any ‘mech post 4SW for a merc. unit could end up to being triple (or more) for a single light / medium ‘mech and I would believe even higher for Heavy and up to 5-6 times for an assault. (as supply is not there though demand is extremely high thus this equates to high prices) .
This makes it virtually unviable, economically, for MAC to purchase spare ‘mechs – though none available to purchase due to Houses cornering the market would be more to the point.
Ghostrider, I cannot remember any House utilizing a scorched earth policy – technology is rare – and doing so goes against everything that people within the IS believe ….
Again why are we going back to what the writers could / could not do as a defence as to why Davion would / would not attack? Militarily – the CC – has Grand Base and their Capitol as major manufacturing facilities - their entire economy – their navy – plus the prestige gained from killing off another House - WHY, in any real world, would Hanse give this up?
Again with the piranha effect? Sorry but I must disagree here I cannot see any periphery force coming to the aid of a House State (3039) – they have hated the IS since before the establishment of the original Star League….
Again I thought we were discussing 3039? Not what happens in the future …..
Clans – how many ‘Mech regiments where the FC reduced to at the start of the Clan invasion 110 or there about to reduce the effectiveness of the IS when the Clans Invaded? Also how were the battles fought? This entire invasion is so woefully written it should not even be considered to be fact …. The entire invasion requires a re-write ….. again read some on my posts regarding the clan invasion as I believe I have gotten closer to how it was fought and the outcome than that of the writers were able to do so.
Though with superior numbers – have a look throughout history – when a force believes they are the superior force, for whatever reason, they will attack first …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/07/18 02:40 AM
66.74.61.223
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You might need to read what was written. I said the FC should have hit the periphery states first, if you really think they should take out the weaker states first.
Securing your borders in some areas would free up alot of troops. Also, you could use the attacks on say the Concordat and just loop around and hit the confederation from a direction they didn't expect.
You keep saying hit the weak link. Well the periphery is that. Less units then the CC even after the 4th war.
For some reason, it seems defense is not part of military operations in these alt conversations. Having a full regiment on a world, does not mean you will automatically win against a battalion that dropped. Hit and run can destroy the regiment even though they have superior numbers. Local superiority wins battles. Over all tends to win wars. But you still are vulnerable as you have so much you have to defend, otherwise, you lose your support from the population, if you had it in the first place.
I know there were a few times that scorched earth was used in the history of the IS. I just can't remember them at this time. I know Amaris did it to slow down Kerensky, but that is older then the 3000's
And the suggestion the CC would not revert to using nukes and such is misguided. The attack to destroy them would have them not worrying about the future from using them, as they are not likely to be around then. So why not nuke everything that you can? Destroy everything the enemy can use. Any type of weapon, including bio, chemical, nuclear as well as traps and even crashing civilian vehicles into the enemy full of explosives would happen. You are talking basic genocide of the leaders. There is no reason to worry about the Ares convention at that point. And that isn't saying the population would do the same.
I believe you have the IS mixed up with the clans. The IS was more then happy to wipe out whole communities to take out the enemy. Some were more brutal then others.
Also, the statement of those with superior numbers have superior weapons. The future you seem to be referring to was the use of the clans to counter the superior weapons from superior numbers.
And recent history has alot of fights started by inferior numbers and supplies. Most are revolts from the government doing things that finally got enough upset to start a shooting war.
History has alot of examples of the superior forces not going on the offensive until after the inferior have done something.
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Requiem
06/07/18 08:39 AM
58.175.193.140
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Picture Hanse Davion in your mind – warlord - statesman – master tactician – then ask ‘how many periphery states (no matter how many military industries they have or how strong they are) are invaded and subdued would equal the same psychological shock and awe to the remaining Great Houses (and Comstar) as to the invasion and destruction of the CC (one of the five great houses)?’
Ans: not even all of them would equate to that of the destruction of the CC … the destruction of the CC is a pivotal moment in time …. One of those great moments in time when people ask each other, where were you when you heard of the Fall of the CC? … that which will send shockwaves throughout all the IS … hence his (Hanse's) glory will rise above all others … egotistical much … this is Hanse Davion … this is why the CC will fall! (it is not about strength or industries it is about being seen as the heir to the Lord of the Star League – and this can only happen when there is only one great house remaining! And with the fall of the CC in 3039/40 we are now down to 3!!!!!!!)
Plus – 3039 – all periphery states are cowered to the Great Houses – the odd raid yes, but that is all that occurs nothing of any serious consequence – Hanse would only consider the Periphery States as a nuisance at best …
Plus – the CC and FS have history … deep and dark …. That can only end in blood and death …. Hanse and the FS have always been troubled by the CC … especially prior to the 4SW … it is about ridding yourself of a pest (Hence the name Operation Rat) … Hanse does not care who is strongest or weakest , he only cares about the CC’s total and utter destruction!
As for the size on the army – if you had 26 regiments (7 of which are mercenary) and you were invaded by 40 to 50 front line veteran / elite RCT regiments – the outcome IS pre-determined – yes it may take time to hunt some of them down but what is important is the end result – and the end result is their destruction it is just a matter of time it is not ‘if’ it can be done ….
As for CC using nukes – how quick would it take for the FS to use them in return - as they would be seen as defending themselves – and how quick would this result in the fall of the CC?
Also if Sun-Tzu and his Sister Kali did escape to their Aunts how could they organize a resistance within the former CC with the knowledge that their mother nuked the realm to deny it from the FS? – They would be seen as the children of a genocidel mad-woman – the name Liao would be vilified within and without the CC for all time (Equal to that of Amaris as by 3039 nukes had been outlawed and their use is seen by all as an illegal Weapon of Mass Destruction) - Hence they cannot be trusted with the future CC throne - Therefore no one would support the children of such a leader in any future political endeavour to win back the throne …. This also must be taken into account …. So, yes she might use nukes, but the future political fallout from their use must also be considered…..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/07/18 12:04 PM
66.74.61.223
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And what would be better then destroying the CC?
Driving the DC to it's knees. With a neutered DC, the others would fall in line without needing the war that would start ending up looking like junkyards for all worlds, as more and more would start turning towards banned weapons to strike back. Hanse would have enjoyed being the one to finally start the DC on it's course to oblivion over the full destruction of the CC. Especially if he could have put Candice Liao on the throne. It would have done more that route then a full war, as the people in the CC would be more likely to hit the FWL without wasting all the time, effort, and possible damage to the 'irreplaceable' factories. Then use the Tikonov process and absorb them. For Hanse, the CC was a distraction, not the primary goal he wanted. Being the ruler of Star League? Why. Be the ruler of the FS or FC and put in history a dynasty greater then the League was. It would all be based on what you wanted, not some sort of democracy.
Now the statement of operation rat. Funny, as the name suggest it was focused towards removing the spy in the AFFS ranks, not necessarily against the CC. It just happened to be the CC was using the rat to hit the FS. With that in mind, how does that alter the concept of the 4th war?
Without going after the rat (spy), the 4th war would not have taken on it's focus. It is very probably the DC would have been the target for that war, not the CC.
And the idea of we are going to die, why worry about political fall out in the future comes to the forefront. ANY of house Liao that was not helping the FS/FC would be hunted down and killed. With that in mind, do you honestly think they care about politics?
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Cray
06/07/18 05:16 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
I know there were a few times that scorched earth was used in the history of the IS. I just can't remember them at this time. I know Amaris did it to slow down Kerensky, but that is older then the 3000's
The Star League Civil War was actually fairly light in casualties, like 1 billion dead total. The Inner Sphere killed ten times that on some single bad days in the First and Second Succession Wars - the nuking of Sarna killed about 7 billion. In total, the First and Second Succession Wars killed about 200 Inner Sphere planets.
Quote:
There is no reason to worry about the Ares convention at that point.
Well, that's true, but the Ares Convention was suspended c2575 at the beginning of the Reunification War against the Periphery. The Star League never obeyed the Ares Convention in any of its conflicts. Then at the beginning of the First Succession War (2787) all the Houses formally renounced the Ares Convention, even though it'd been "suspended" for over 200 years. By 3039, it was nearly 500 years dead.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
06/07/18 07:15 PM
58.175.193.140
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We all agree that the aim of all IS wars is to become the new First Lord of the Star League.
Therefore let us categorize the aims of a House Lord
1. Becoming Stronger – militarily and economically than all others;
2. Being recognized as the strongest;
3. Becoming the new First Lord;
With destroying one of the Great Houses (Liao) we can say that ‘yes’ this action does take the victor one step closer to becoming the new First Lord – thus achieving No. 1 and No. 2.
However, would driving the DC to their knees make them the new First Lord? As this is the only step above that of being recognized as the strongest – ans: no it would not, the border would shift however the war would continue at a later date ….
So the point of driving them to their knees was what … they are still fighting, still defying FC’s right to be the new First Lord?
Can it be said the gains of attacking the DC will be greater that the gains of destroying the CC?
Liao – this DOES give you glory, it DOES give you a greater economy, it DOES give you a larger army, It DOES give you more worlds than that if you attacked the DC (Plus more military industries inc. Cataphract and Raven), it DOES give you a larger Navy (Jump-ships) (therefore a greater flexibility when attacking the DC in the future), It DOES put you one step closer to becoming the new FIRST LORD.
Can you say at the end of 3039 if you attack the DC you wold end up with more than what is discussed when attacking Liao and the CC? ans:– the border would shift however the DC would continue to fight? Will it give you more industries a larger economy more jump-ships etc
The only rational argument that could be given at this stage is either the destruction of the CC or the destruction of the DC?
Can it be said the 3039 war would destroy the DC in the place of the CC? How could it?
Can it be argued that the war of 3039 would destroy the DC? Ans:- no
Can it be argued the war of 3039 would destroy the CC? Ans:- yes
Can you then utilize the former CC assets to overwhelm the military of the DC in the future? Ans:- yes
This is why the CC must fall 1st – this is why the writers got it wrong…….
As for a scorched earth tactics, yes, lets nuke it all! – all worlds all people (similar to Hitler’s final order) – OK that happened – though the CC’s just as dead, the major objective is still achieved …. Though from now on we are back to 1st Succession War Tactics throughout the IS … the game still marches on … New game rule all large concentrations of ‘Mechs (of 12 or more) on the game board can be nuked as a first strike by any House Unit …. Utilizing a small battlefield tactical nuke….. winner: COMSTAR as they are now the new First Lord of the Star League …. That is until everything and every one becomes a Clan vassal when they invade as there are no viable forces to stop them at this stage! …. Yes this is exactly what would happen if CC was attacked and conquered …..
Are the Liao’s of Sian that deranged? Can it be argued they would do this even on a small scale? Yes it could be – but would they – would anyone want the game to become the Jihad on steroids post 3039 as this is what it would become even with a limited use of nukes – a return to the 1SW? ans:- ???????
For once the atomic Jennie is out of the bottle good luck in putting it back in the bottle!
So would they do it? FC forces invade the CC as a final war of conquest of the CC? What next as CIC of MSCC use / don't use? ans:- ??????
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/07/18 08:05 PM
66.74.61.223
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Why be first lord, when you can be the prince of the entire IS? The title of first lord sounds great, but it still is not the full powered title as it sounds. There is no, you command, others obey. First lord is you command, others scoff, laugh and play the delaying tactics until the end of time if they can. What good is that?
If not for the spy issue, I don't think the CC would have been the target for the 4th war. But the destruction of the CC should not have made it past the 4th war.
The concept of first lord would well mean the DC/FWL would own the First lord title, as it was 2 to 1 in votes. Removing the CC would have dropped it from 3 to 1. So that is dead end. At any time, all the leaders claimed first lord, and it was still in effect when the 4th war started. Having the official title and the other fighting it to the last, would still happen. Only a total overwhelming military might would stop that. The title wouldn't.
Forcing the DC to recognize your claim to the throne would basically end resistance from all others, as they know they could not withstand the forces that would be brought to bear. Removing the CC does not do so. It only makes the others more likely to resort to full resistance of any invasion.
The entire Dieron district was to be taken in 3039, including the mech facilities on Quentin and other worlds lost to the DC in the 4th war. Or maybe that fact was missed.
The CC using nukes may not set off the 1st war tactics with the others. And the point that is missing is people will do what ever they feel is needed to wipe out the enemy.
Would a nation destroyed it's own factories, knowing another enemy will gain from it and knowing there is no way they would ever get it back? you betcha.
And the good luck statement of putting the nuke genie back. That happened in the 1st SW. Also the hysteria of suggesting all would use and continue to use them is a bit much, but then elements in all states would attempt to use them once the first one went off. And you don't even need a nuke. Simple demolitions in the factories the FS would gain, destroying them and any invading unit could be done. Only the nuke makes sure they can't rebuild it for ages.
The clan invasion may well have hit right after the CC was destroyed. They did NOT want the IS to make a new league. This action would have forced it, but no one would have known that at the time. The clans didn't exist to the IS. 3042 probable would have seen the clans come in and hit the FC with a vengeance. It would have to in order to avoid them running a new League. And if the clans had hit then, there would be no league tech to even begin to fight back with.
And before the future statement comes out, the suggestion was opened in the last post.
Can it be argued the FC may well lose alot of worlds as the FWL/DC hit the weakened border? yes.
Now the argument of the 3039 war destroying the DC. As comstar was interferring with things, that did change the scope of what was up.
But why do you think it would be a short war? It could well have been a 200 year war, being the 5th SW. The DC would be hurt had they lost the Dieron district and with the economic might from the FC, would have been able to sustain the attacks on the DC.
And the use of tac nukes isn't out of the question.
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Requiem
06/08/18 04:11 AM
58.175.193.140
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First Lord / First Prince … this is just a title … semantics only / taking it too literally … to the victor the spoils and how the rules / laws will be written – First Lord is used only because of its PR value – as to what it once stood for – what it will mean in the future is totally up to the victor’s lawyers and military enforces.
I think we are all getting bogged down on topics that are of no importance to the original question asked …
The issue being discussed is if the writers stuffed up in writing the DC as the target and not the CC for the 3039 War.
Again we are supposed to be discussing what should have transpired / those factors that led up to the decision regarding the 3039 war and not those that occur within the war. We are looking for a strategy to win the game … become the First Lord …. Nothing else matters …. So,
First, let’s not concern ourselves with what could have / would have happened in the war ie. the CC using nukes to stop the FC invasion / the duration of the war etc. – this is only a distraction to the real question(s) …
What we should be discussing only is the comparison in potential gains between invading the DC and conquering the CC – for this is the underlining reason(s) behind WHY THE FC & HANSE DAVION ATTACKS….
The 4SW has resulted in half the CC falling to the FS/LC … yes? So what is the best next move to achieve the goal …. becoming First Lord / First Prince (whatever you want to call it) …. In the most efficient and effective way possible ….
So – what do we gain in invading the DC in 3039 – The aim was to capture worlds within the Dieron district, and along the DC/FS border and hobble the DC military (if possible) – so what is in there that makes it so important?
It is the closest district to Terra – thus its capture could expand the Terran corridor; Note however we are only talking about those worlds closest to Terra as this is not about the entire Dieron region.
So what are their important worlds / industries are within Dieron (Al Na’ir; Kessel and Vega Prefectures) – Refer to the 20 year update map on pg. 32 which refers to the war of 3039
The Commonweath and Dieron Trusts included – Altais, Alnasi, Vega, Konstance, Kessel, Pike IV, Athenry, Telos IV, Nashira, Biham, Halstead station, Sadachnia, Ancha
Benjamin Thrust – Sadalbari, Fellanin II, Matar, New Mendham, Kathandu IV, Marduk
Galedon Thrust – Elidere IV, Thestria, Huan, An Ting, Capra, Delacruz
Dieron Area:-
Dieron – a capitol world only;
Altair – Mining – Iron Ore and Titanium and medicines; Riever class aerospace fighter
Al Na’ir – space mining of rare minerals – Small Battlemech facility – (so small it is not even mentioned In the House Kurita book #1620) – Yori Mech Works – Hatamoto-Series & Atlas Mechs (plus other components for the Catapult) plus vehicles Pegasus, Saladin, Scimitar, Maxim, Hover APC; (though other books say the Hatamoto is produced on Errai)
Ashio – has the biggest Volcano in the Inner Sphere;
Algedi – Nil. Of importance;
Kessel – heavily industrialized;
Vega – manufacturing myomer cable bundles and Pyramids;
Quentin – Nt. This world exchanged hands from FC to DC during the 3039 war so this world does not play a part in the decision to invade or not; (though it does have JagerMech, Marauder, Victor and Atlas production plants)
Benjamin Thrust:-
Huan – Sparkling Spirits Incorporated;
Sadalbari – food export;
Fellanin II – minerals and petrochemicals;
Marduk – Victory Mech Works – Griffin and Wolverine
Galedon Thrust:- Nil. of any real importance
Thestria – precious metals;
No of Worlds captured: approx. 40 worlds
Attacking FC Forces: approx. 75 Regiments
Defending DC Forces: approx. 60 Regiments
Economy – non quantifiable amount;
Jump-ships / Dropships – the DC would endeavour to hold onto as many of these as possible – in the event of possible capture retreat back into DC held space;
Battlemech units captured / destroyed – non quantifiable amount as Kurita could easily retreat as many of these out of the combat region, thus preserving his military for any future campaign or stay and fight;
Duration of war / Exit Strategy from war – Unknown and if pushed back to the FC’s original border.
Prestige gained – the capture of Part a small part of Dieron and a change in border worlds between the FC and the DC only. Therefore very little prestige at all – similar situation to mostly all the wars in the past.
So the FC were looking for a gain of approx. 40 worlds two Battlemech factories / 5 various vehicle manufactories / one aerospace factory / food / precious metals – unknown amount of jump-ships – unknown amount of captured ‘Mechs etc. during the war. – so overall this war is just a change in the border only.
(so what was the outcome – little to both sides – a change in border only – then peace – However 75 FC/mercenary ‘Mech regiments are damaged requiring repair)
Now let us compare all of this to conquering the remaining half of the CC
Their remaining worlds are adjacent the periphery and the FWL (the Duchy of Andurien)
So what are their important worlds / industries are within the remaining CC?
(Note I am excluding Ares, Necromo and Betelgeuse)
Bithinia – steel mills; weapons AC5 / AC20;
Capella – Vindicator ‘Mech / Transit Aerospace Fighter / Jupships –Merchant, Invader, Monolith, Drop-ship - Triumph, Excalibur, Avenger
Grand Base – Stinger and Cataphract Mechs
Menke – Armor and Armament
Sian – Vehicles Vedette, Scorpion, Hover APC, Pegasus, Maxim – Mechs Wasp and Raven – Aerospace – Transgressor
Victoria – Electronics
No.of worlds captured: approx. 100 worlds
Attacking FC Forces: approx. 40-50 regiments
Defending CC Forces: 26 regiments (7 mercenary)
Economy – A quantum leap above that of those suggested within the DC.
Jumpships / Dropships – most of their remaining fleet (so a high number)
Battlememech units captured / destroyed - up to 19 Regiments worth of captured ‘Mechs (in various states of repair – even if you could salvage 25% this would still give you 4-5 new Regiments worth of 'Mechs strait off the bat).
Duration of war / Exit Strategy from war – Unknown and unless serious casualties are incurred during the duration of the war
Prestige gained – for the first time ever a Great House has fallen to that of another – Prestige would be very high – for the first time since the fall of the star league there now appears a front runner to the title Lord of the Star League …
So the FC were looking for a gain of approx. 100 worlds three battlemech factories / 4 various vehicle manufactories / two aerospace factories / three jumpship / three drop-ship / food / precious metals etc - the entire remaining CC economy – near to all of the former CC navy – a large number of captured ‘Mechs– So, the entire CC is gone – therefore a massive change in the border
(so what would be the outcome – a massive change in the border with the removal of the CC from the border – then peace – However only 40-50 FC/mercenary ‘Mech regiments are damaged requiring a reduced amount of repair whereas the above is at 75 or thereabouts requiring repair)
So – the FC achieved much more including jump-ships / dropships, ‘Mechs, fighters (as per the Objective raids book) – more worlds captured – the prestige gained by destroying a rival house and this is all completed with fewer FC regiments – thus you have more on the border to protect your other border worlds
So how can anyone still say that the CC is still not the primary target of the 3039 war?
This also now gives the FC a good chance within the next 15-20 years to expand their army to such an extent so that neither the FWL or the DC could survive the next war.
With the additional transport / ‘Mech units available to Hanse Davion …. It puts him closer to the IS throne than anyone has been before him … and still No? why? (remember we are talking about a decision prior to the war not what may or may not happens within the war)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/08/18 11:56 AM
66.74.61.223
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If increased production was the issue, the FC would have built more facilities easier then war. They had it in the power to do so, and make them far more efficient then any half running, possibly having to rebuild them entirely from a war with the CC.
The best route there, would be help Candace take out Liao, having an ally run the CC, and cause more issues for Marik without exposing more of your border to the FWL.
Taking on the DC is more about destroying the DCMS. Taking Dieron would do one of two things. Hurt the moral of the DCMS, or turn them into fanatical lunatics. The fact the DC is the greatest threat to the FC is part of the key here. They are the biggest stumbling block to running the IS, if you remove the WOB/Comstar line.
The writers did screw up more then a few times with making the entire history. Joining the FS and LC was one of them. But they want to sell product. From there, alot of the wars seemed to go down hill.
And the fact the war could have been extended, had it not been for the bs of Comstar interference in both wars. I said it before. The CC should never have survived the 4th war. But after that, it was a nuassaince that was best left while you took out the main problem you had.
And this is also covering the shadow war.
Before league tech came out and was used, the Raven was not that great of a mech. The electronics in it, made it worth it. The vindicator? Average mech that the writers turned into a decent defender. The urbanmech? Basically better then no mech at all, but resources better spent elsewhere (no offense to those that love this mech).
I don't doubt taking Capella would be a target, but other then that, the Combine is more of a threat.
I personally don't like the way the CC was done up, but it was and still is not the main threat to the FS/FC.
A simple head hunter raid to remove the royals would accomplish removing the CC as a threat is much easier then invading it. Destroying the Combine was Hanse's primary goal in life. But that was stated in future books, so has to be tossed out, like all the other things saying it would never happen and did.
The alt histories are fine for your campaigns and such. Trying to say all should follow it is a little much.
Yes. There are major holes in the writers plots, and without knowing what they plan, other then more money, will have more things thrown against the wall and seeing what sticks.
And I admit, I had the wrong world named for what should have been taken in the 4th war. It was not sarna, but capella. The ship production there would have crippled the CC beyond repair. So start there, then move on to 3039.
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Requiem
06/09/18 09:24 PM
58.175.193.140
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The Combine is more of a threat … thus would you not want to prepare for that war?... by … having the numbers, the support, the transport etc. ….. just look at what happened to Napoleon rushing into Russia when not being prepared as he should have been (no winter clothing / housing / food etc.) …. As being prepared / having the supplies / logistics etc is a major part to determining if you are ready and capable of sustaining the war (especially for long periods of time) ….
Thus the more military industries you have – the more ‘Mech Regiments you have - the more Jumpships you have – all of this is making the FC strategically and tactically prepared for the oncoming war with DC – would not a warlord want all of this when invading a the Draconis Combine?
Plus the money to pay for an invasion into the DC - would not the economy of the CC assist with paying for this?
As conquering the CC would it not cost less than invading the DC?
What is the best way of getting this than to acquire it through the acquisition of the CC? …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/10/18 04:14 AM
66.74.61.223
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The problem with that is the combine would be doing the same thing. They would be preparing for the onslaught. Better to hit them sooner, and remove what they have now, then wait until they have added to it.
And the idea the CC economy would assist in this is missing vital information. The CC was not an economic powerhouse to begin with. It would cost the FC more to work on the CC at this point in history, then you would make. Instead of a full invasion, simply taking Capella with the star craft manufacturing is the answer to that.
But wait. Having the resources to sustain an attack would mean the enemy would deny you using theirs? Isn't the a form of scorched earth? Nah. That can't be right.
The thought of what the FRR did to the wolves, by removing the panther factory says the IS would do something like scorched earth if a dire threat exists.
To the egotistical warlord, costs aren't the end all. Removing the greatest threat to your realm is. The CC is a minor threat at this point. The DC is the ONLY thing holding the others together in that make shift alliance. To someone looking to be called an ultimate tactician, the DC is the only target worth your attention.
And the idea of having more assets to use against the DC is missing the fact, that those should have been built in protected areas inside the FC, not trying to rely on something in an enemy state. Just like Napoleon statement, which Germany, in both world wars found out as well.
The FC was prepared as best it could for the DC invasion. Comstar and Theodore were able to foil it with the bs the writers did.
It is interesting about more regiments. The LC had the base to do so, and didn't do anything of the sort throughout most of the succession wars. They should have been able to march all over the DC and FWL in their time, and couldn't.
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Requiem
06/10/18 08:48 PM
58.175.193.140
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Rate of production – what is the variance in numbers, how many ‘Mechs, Vehicles, Aerospace Fighters, Dropships, etc. can the FC out-produce the DC? And how much more could they out-produce them with the CC military industries?
Sometimes it is better to hold off than jump into the complete unknown – as we are now back to risk vs. gamble – Short Term Gains Vs. Long Term Gains.
Yes, CC is not a power-house, however, it does have a positive economy and this economy can be utilized to supplement FC’s economy.
We are also discussing a plan of 3039 –invade and conquer the CC – late 3050 early 3060 Invade the DC with multiple waves of overwhelming strength to finally reduce their military to nil.
Targeting the DC in 3039 shows only that the FC is blinkered (as are the writers) as to the wider goals they are capable of achieving (75 ‘Mech Regiments for a Border War with the DC capture at a max 40 worlds or 40-50 ‘Mech Regiments to conquer the CC and acquire at max 100 worlds – therefore, achieving much more for far less + removing one great house from the equation! The equations for the conquering of the CC are way above that of a border war with the DC)
So initially yes fixing the CC would cost more however when NAIS engineers etc fix the CC (at a max of approx.. 10 years) – However, for the next 10+ years how much more would the former CC economy be increased by? (look at Germany and Japan’s Post WWII economy as to how theirs increased over time an example)
Capella on its own – Sorry I disagree – Grand Base and Sian are also required for their ‘Mech production facilities – so if you are going for them also you might as well go for everything – in for a penny in for a pound – all the way with HD – A full invasion is required – so, get it all!, any warlord of HD calibre would demand nothing less….
Scorched Earth? – again this is a possible event during the war, not what could/would be used leading up to the decision to invade or not? Or do we now have mystics who can see into the future? So non-issue ….
Being egotistical does not mean you are also not a realist – a tactical genius realises the importance of logistics, here are a few quotes …
"Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless."
- Gen. George S. Patton, USA
"Bitter experience in war has taught the maxim that the art of war is the art of the logistically feasible."
- ADM Hyman Rickover, USN
"Forget logistics, you lose."
- Lt. Gen. Fredrick Franks, USA, 7th Corps Commander, Desert Storm
I am in total agreement with you DC is the most important threat …. However I disagree with the tactics /strategy used to defeat them. All sides have gone through the 4SW – all sides need rest and recovery time to build up their forces for the next war. It is obvious that even by 3039 the FC does not have enough forces to overwhelm and finally destroy the DC in one final all-out war (because if you can’t achieve this it is just going to be another border war and the wars go on and on and on).
FC do not want to go to war now (3039) and find they cannot complete the task of defeating the DC once all because you did not have overwhelming numbers.
So, at this stage (prior to 3039) the FC asks itself how can 'we' get to a position where our military will be in a position to win? We need more ‘Mechs, Vehicles, Aerospace Fighters, Drop-ships and Jump-ships, Money, People etc – Therefore, how / where do we get these for the future DC war in late 3050 early 3060? – Conquer the CC and it gives you everything you need, and more over time, (CC is a short term gain) to achieve the long term objective, that of the DC!
Again is this not the reason why you have conquered the CC? Building in protected areas – when conquered the CC is a protected area – as it will be a part of the future FC ... a basic fact the entire universe is built upon ...
Conquering gives the FC more resources from which to draw / to achieve their long term political aspirations – a check list would include? – 1. FWL negotiated political settlement (marriage?) – 2. DC military conquered in one final war - 3. Become First Lord by late 3060 early 3070 – 4. FC Rule everyone and everything from then on until the end of time!
Conquering the CC is the first logical step is achieving this check list – is sets the board for all future actions - it legitimises / makes possible all future FC movements / wars ….
How can anyone say the FC has the military strength in 3039 to conquer the DC in one war? even without Comstar's Interference?
However, with an increased strength in late 3050 early 3060 could/would they be in a better position to conquer the DC? would Comstar's Interference be known by then?
Your comments?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/10/18 10:34 PM
66.74.61.223
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Example of the CC economy when occupied. The Chaos March.
Suggesting the CC would not destroy the factories if threatened with full destruction is missing a big point with them. What do they have to lose? If the FC drops taking care of them, then it shows the rest of the... well, humanity, just what is instore for them if the FC leaders get their way.
Acquisition of resources is a poor way to make war. Well reliance on resources not produced is a poor way to do a war. The FC should have made the factories and such after they 4th war. And held off on hitting anyone until they were done and running. So there is another issue with writing.
The suggestion that the FC could not outproduce the DC without the CC assets is another hole in this thinking. Well, if you go by the books and such, as it was suggested in the books that is a prime reason comstar sold the mechs to the DC. It was falling way behind the FC.
The thoughts behind having overwhelming numbers and not going to war to lop off bits and pieces of the enemy is completely opposite of the 1st- 3rd succession wars. Only the combined might of 2 houses made the gains in the 4th possible. The FS could have done some without the LC, but no where near as much.
And worlds fell and were kept when constant raiding was done. Destroying the enemies forces is one of the ways required to win, though hitting logistics is a big key. There is no doubt there. Delaying the strikes to hit the CC would allow more stashes and such to be made by the DC. They gave away the FRR to stop this sort of invasion.
And taking Capella would remove the CC's ability to fix it's jumpships as well as stop them from making more. The rest will fall in time. A full invasion isn't required as you have Liao house members at least giving you lip service. And another point there. It is possible, though not said in the game, Candice may have asked the FC not to destroy the CC's people that this very sort of war would produce. Removing Romana and her children would have opened the way for a more peaceful solution. One that did not involve the populace being complete obstructionists, like the Cataphract entry says happened at the factories.
The numbers of units produced it more then enough as MERCS are buying them up. If what is suggested is true, there would be NOTHING for mercs to buy. Even gifts and replacements would be less likely.
Another flaw in the logic with the protected area. Where in the CC is safe from not only sabotuers but strikes from the FWL and even, I know you won't like this, but periphery states. And yes. They do send in 'pirate' raids. If you don't think so, then there is something missing from the beginning of the fall of the League. The houses sponsored them against each other. And even things built on capital worlds were not protected from everything. Not even talking about the Comstar/Death Commando raid on NAIS, but other strikes have hit all capitals. The idea of safe is an illusion. Yes, this could be said about building your own factories in your areas.
The comstar influence by that time, may have well gone over to helping the DC and it's allies beyond the secret help it gave. Walterly, a very pro Combine person could well have hit the FC with interdiction, removing any in the first circuit that would have protested or helped the FC. Even ordering their forces to hit the FC, including destroying things like jumpship manufacturing as well as other non military targets. Breaking up the FC, but helping those remove the terran corridor would have done wonders as well as allowed comstars greater power, as they were the ones supplying the FC with engines for their warships at the later times. If they had denied that, where would the FC be? No warships to counter the others, as well as comstar, yet even the black boxes would not be enough to get around that.
And trying to say taking out the Concordat as well as others on the Lyran side may make it sound bad, the lack of needing high forces in those areas does more then taking out the CC.
One more thing came to mind. The war in 3039 was FC verse DC only. The FWL and CC did not get involved. So half the border wasn't part of that. Now. What forces would be needed?
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ghostrider
06/10/18 10:38 PM
66.74.61.223
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The stupid writing, suggesting the Lyran part of the invasion into the DC in 3039, having weekly, hell even monthly meetings is a big hole in the invasion plot.
How can you conceivably justify tying up all the jumpships for something as stupid as gathering your high command on one world inside enemy territory? Each leader needs transport to and from said meeting and all had to be there and return within days of it. Some required multiple jumps, so atleast 2 jumpships per leader was needed, and additional ones for those needed multiple jumps.
Yes. This is about an alt history where the FC was to finish off the CC. But this was to cover gaping holes in the writers flaws, there is another big one.
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Requiem
06/11/18 01:31 AM
58.175.193.140
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I thought we were discussing events prior to 3039 that created the 3039 war? – Chaos March – the future again! – now where are my Oracles of Delphi I need a quick reading for 3050 …….!!!!!
Resources a poor way to make war???? – Resources are why many a war is waged. Resources are required to feed the citizens and keep the industry of state moving forward, without resources everything would stop! The more you have leads to prosperity health and happy citizens and also wealth for both the citizens and the state.
As for building new industries …. The Battletech universe is built around gaining new industry via conquest … why change that policy now? Conquer … rebuild … increase productivity … build up the states forces …. Is this not what all the states attempt to do?
Quote: “The suggestion that the FC could not out-produce the DC without the CC assets is another hole in this thinking”.
Please read again – I was trying to say the FC were already out producing the DC by 3039 – however, how much more could this become if they also included the industries of the CC?
Ie. If current FC out-put is “X” units then with the CC it becomes “X + C” which is greater than X” and how many times would X + C out-produce the DC by mid/late 3040 - “(X+C)/D” - especially if by 3039 X is already greater than D?
And over time this weapons gap would increase to an amount they would be unable to defend against (this is the point is it not as to why you would attack in late 3050 early 3060 – overwhelming military superiority?)
Lip Service from House Liao? Really, A Vichy CC? …. No, that would never ever happen, not one ruler could even contemplate this as a reality. It would be better to rid yourself of an unwanted ruler (and family if possible) who would stab you in the back as soon as look at you … No, it would be better to put “your” man/woman into this power vacuum someone with whom you could trust someone who get the wheels of industry / commerce turning …. Nt: Could you not also importing your people to run the ‘mech production lines …. No problems … except for raids / saboteurs … however this is just normal SOP is it not? This is not why you have a garrison unit and a security forces?
Comstar ….again how do they come into an equation of the FC attacking the CC or not ? …. If Hanse doesn’t know what they up to prior to 3039 how does this affect his decision to attack or not?
Again this is looking into the future not what occurred prior to 3039. It only affects future wars only!
The writers of the 3039 war excluded the FWL and CC because they both had internal issues and they had yet to recover from the 4SW – any adventurism by them at this critical stage would have gone the worse for them
And as for borders – the FC still had 200+ ‘Mech Regiments on guard not involved in the DC war – good luck in repelling these forces if they did get involved in a new 5SW which could have resulted in the demise of both the FWL and the CC at the same time – the 4SW war proves that he could have expanded the war if necessary – both the FWL and CC realised they would not survive another war orchestrated by Hanse Davion …. No a 5SW would have resulted in the collapse of both the FWL and the CC – but again how does this affect Hanse Davions Decision to Attack or Not to Attack the CC ?
And I quite agree with the massive hole regarding the Lyran meetings – no one ever would even contemplate this. When in command … Command … you have to trust your commanders to get things done and not to micro-manage their every decision … this was a most pitiful excuse used to validate why a FC / DC war would end? You wold have thought they would have come up with something a little more plausible than that.
No I am still under the belief that if it had of been written correctly the 3039 war should have been that of the CC (Though it wasn’t due to PC issues) and then at a later date then and only then would he attack the DC - when he is prepared, when he has enough forces to outmanoeuvre that of the DC – As his first target would be every Sword of Light Unit …. And then go from there …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/11/18 03:05 AM
66.74.61.223
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The second sentence should have cleared that up, but I will do so now. Relying on gaining resources, not the natural ones, but things like ammo and such, from invading another nation is a poor war to deal with a war. Unlike now a days, the future does have common ammo being used in their weapons, so you are more likely to find things you can use. Though weapons will need to be modified.
Now here is something I missed and is missing from this argument.
Between those opposed to the FC, which nations were more likely to produce warships?
The overwhelming numbers to invade the DC has just been changed to hoping they don't have the capital weapons set up to destroy your incoming ships before you can use them.
So why hit the DC first?
To try and prevent them from getting and using warships would be a good point.
Now the fact Justin Xiang/Allard married Candice, you have your 'man' in position to take over if you could get those running the CC gone.
Why change the game at this point? Why upgrade weapons and start making warships? Why build more and different units? To make sure you have the superior army going into a fight?
But then that would destroy the need to take enemy factories. Most are using weapons designed for their use, which means need to be modified to work with yours. Omnis removed this issue with the pods.
Why have 200+ regiments guarding the borders instead of being part of the assault on the combine? Where is putting all the forces you can into the attack gone?
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ghostrider
06/11/18 03:14 AM
66.74.61.223
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Page 13-14 of the 20 year update tells that the 3039 war was supposed to happen even sooner, but the Skye uprising stopped it. I wonder just what would have happened had Skye not done so, and the war started sooner.
You know. When the forces were where they needed to be and the other states were still reeling from the 4th war.
That is another reason why the DC strike was planned. To hit them before they could recover. And would have had other events not been put in.
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Requiem
06/11/18 04:58 AM
58.175.193.140
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Sorry you misunderstood what I was writing – capturing ammo to continue a war is poor strategy – but capturing another worlds ammo production facility, having it work for you for many years to build up multiple ammo dumps on multiple worlds to support a pending invasion that is another story.
Warships????? Again we are talking 3039, but if you want to bring that subject in CC has a huge Jumpship manufacturing facility why not get it now and use it to produce warships.
Yes the DC could have produced warships and yes they are a threat – however the FC has now got three of the IS’s only remaining Jumpship production plants – how many can the DC make to how many the FC can make?
However in 3039 can you say this would be an issue as to when deciding to invade or not? It is still an non-issue for a couple of more years, then it will be an issue …
Yes Justine Married Candice LIAO – this is exactly why you cannot allow him, his wife or his children to ever rule any gained territory in the former CC. The Liao name would give them legitimacy in the future to succeed from FC and establish neo CC – this is a good way to loose all of the newly captured territory – thus, good luck in getting it back in one piece. No you want someone with the right name ….. hmmmmm ….. Steiner or Davion sounds like a good name for the job …. Now who to choose?
New weapons … Omnis … what is this in relation to invading the CC or not in 3039?
200+ Regiments – you need an offensive team and a defensive team – you put those numbers to either one or the other that you can and then hope for the best result. Attack what you can and defend what you can the choice is yours when assigning combat / garrison tasks.
Good point, attacking the DC earlier could have changed the outcome – Though this delay proves my point .... as delayed attack = unsuccessful attack; As they (DC) have had time to prepare for the attack they have recovered for the 4SW – hence a more effective attack is required to achieve their aims – such as more transport required to get around their (DC) defensive plans – so how do we do this? Lets borrow (on a long term basis) the CC they won’t mind ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/11/18 12:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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The omnis were there to show issues with captured items from an enemy factory. It does not work with your models unless you modify them. Omni capability changed that, as they fit into pods, then into units. Granted, you still have to modify the parts to fit into the pods, or have that many more connections, braces, brackets and the like.
The idea of warships in the hands of the combine is the worse nightmare for the FC at that time. And as is always hindsight is 20/20. You suggest they have x amount of facilities, yet seem to forget in game intel. We, as readers and players know this, but the in game nations don't have any ideas of what each has or where. And just because you have jumpship facilities, doesn't mean they didn't have shut down warship facilities.
Granted, retooling factories to make items you can use off the assembly lines wouldn't take all that long, it would still have to be done. So instant production of items you can use for other units isn't going to happen. And with that, you would have to redesign parts of the units you were taking, as they would not be able to use your 'new' parts. The tanks from the U.S. normally do not work in tanks from Russia. Yes, once you own their factories, you can try to produce parts there.
Educated guesses has alot to do with planning wars. Even raids were planned around things like prototypes, rumored blueprints and such.
As I recently read the clan invasion, I did see the suggestion of using nukes against the clans, yet in this thread, one of the two most likely to use nukes was said that they wouldn't. The DC and CC are about tied on which would use them. The FC/FS/LC was least likely. But I guess comparing the two isn't fair. In this, the CC would be fighting for it's existence, while in the clan alt, it is the FC.
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Requiem
06/12/18 07:55 AM
58.175.193.140
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Question:- How does any of this relates to decision to invade the CC or the DC cira. 3039?
Sorry, by I have not read anything that would change my mind - 1st CC - use its resources / industries to build up the FC over a 15-20 year period then use the CC Jumpships + your old and new army then 2nd Attack the DC in late 3050 early 3060 - as it is logical, achievable and provides the money necessary for a future invasion of the DC. Though the main point wold still be that it achieves that which no one has ever done before the destruction of a Great House ....All Hail the FC at this stage....
Writers ..... ahhhhhhh!, what do we do next?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 10:19 PM
66.74.61.223
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The demand of use of nukes to stop the clans, but the same idea is said would never work here shows some flaws with the logic in this alt history.
As said in the other thread, the use of nukes could be done to destroy the enemies ability to move thru areas. I would suggest the use of nukes in major areas, like the jump points of Galaxy, Kathil, Hesperous, and a few others, especially jump ship repairs and building would be a valid thing to do. Remove the ability to use those facilities without destroying them. Jumpships do not travel well with thrusters to pirate points.
The idea of not building new factories is lacking knowdledge of the history of the IS. Almost all of the new mechs, dropships and such did not come from factories in existence during the 3rd succession war. They were all built, including engine manufacturers and such since that time. The hachetman, wolfhound, dragon, raven, and others came from factories that did not exist. So by even suggesting there is no new factories being done, show a hole in the understanding of the game. The DC had to build a new factory to keep making the panther mech when the FRR was born, before the 3039 war. Even fixing ones that existed was done, so there is a small out for this statement.
Salvaging things from the enemy was done, but normally mechs, tanks and the like. For new lines, you did not rely on trying to take factories from each other.
Blackwell company is a fine example of this. The marauder 2 was not from a captured factory, but from one build from the ground up.
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Requiem
06/13/18 07:26 PM
58.175.193.140
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How does any of this relates to decision to invade the CC or the DC cira. 3039?
Building Factories is one thing, however acquiring the Jumpship facilities / Cataphract / Raven / Vindicator ‘Mech manufacturing facilities / all of the CC people / agriculture / minerals / is another.
Invading a rival’s Capital Planet and conquering it – completing that which no one has ever achieved
How could anyone want to give this up for attacking the border worlds of the DC?
If you wanted to destroy the DC military and their future Warships production – then why did you not target these rather than targeting the DC planets along the borders as described in the sourcebook – Targeting planets = objective is a land grab; Targeting military / military infrastructure = objective to destroy your enemies ability to wage war in the future.
IF the DCMS was so dangerous, and they were the primary target of the 3039 war then why ….?????
If you were going to destroy the DC military would you not target all of their Sword of Light Regiments (the loss of which would be a crippling blow to the DCMS – not only militarily but psychologically to the entire people of the DC and that of their Generals and their Coordinator personally)
I Know Luthien Armor works would have been a bit of a stretch – but what about the Panther (on Jarett) and The Sholagar (on Torbildown and Schyler), Slayer (on Dover) and Shilone (on Chatham) Aerospace fighters – all of which would be a serious loss to the DCMS?
Also why not target some of their military academies – Sun Zhang, Proserpina, Hachiman and Minoru Kurita – if you wanted to destroy their future military infrastructure?
No the 3039 war can only be described as a land grab if worlds were the primary target (as discussed previously – approx.. 40 DC worlds at a cost of 75 FC regiments) whereas the CC is more cost effective as a land grab (100 CC worlds at a cost of 40-50 FC Regiments) plus you get more, more Jumpships, more mechs, more aerospace, greater economy and you have achieved a feat no one has ever achieved.
So again why would you not attack the CC rather than the DC if it is as it appears to be a land grab rather than a serious attempt to destroy the DC military?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/14/18 06:36 AM)
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ghostrider
06/13/18 09:41 PM
66.74.61.223
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Taking territory so you have a safer back side in order to advance deeper into their territory is a must. Supplies to continue moving forward need to have the safe passage.
With the sword of light question, there is a context that is missing. Where are they? Can you reach them and get out afterwards? How many troops will you lose trying to hit Luthien as they may well be stationed on or near it at the time of the strikes? Those in game did not have this information. Today it is called the fog of war. There is no push this button to locate a specific unit.
As for losing faith, losing Dieron, the entire district would be something more demoralizing then the sword of light regiments. You can't hide that fact or suggest the units were reassigned to another area. The media is controlled by the government, so only rumors will exist on what happened with the regiments if destroyed. And you could well embolden the DC if they take out alot more then they lost in such strikes.
Yes. They would be a prime objective if you can reach them reasonably.
It appears the fact that military units guards those worlds on the border has disappeared from sight. Land grab is always the objective unless you are just raiding. Taking those worlds, means the enemy has a harder time striking yours. The further in you go, the more they have to hit their own worlds and take them back before hitting yours.
And that is supposed to be a priority in all wars. Making sure the enemy can't hurt your people.
Part of why taking Capella would have made the CC less of a threat, and not worth risking your units invading at that time.
The military academies would be a decent target if they are in range of your forces.
Cost effective is not what war is about.
I would suggest reading the history of the succession wars. How do you stop the armies of your enemies when you can't get near their facilities?
An invasion of this size would be aimed at taking out units that stand and fight, or get caught and cornered. You bait them to attack on your terms, not theirs. And if they don't, then you hit them with the next wave. Very few wars are over in less then a year.
And that does not even touch personal feelings for the leaders. Liao has been losing territory since the 1st war. A lot of the Capellan march is taking lands. Or do you not have access to the first maps after the League fell?
And the fact the DC threatens both the FS and LC would do wonders for making the population back them. That would remove alot of power from the Skye rebels, as well as reinforce your commitment to the Draconis March.
I think you are focusing on the war as the FS against an enemy, not the LC with them. The FRR formation blocked a large chunk of the LC from getting to the DC, and even had to give up lands in order to make it look like they wanted a peaceful solution to the FRR issue.
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Requiem
06/14/18 06:20 AM
58.175.193.140
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Ok, thank-you that was an interesting read and it gave me many things to think about …
A New Tact for the 3039 FC war then:-
If you believe so strongly then that the CC is the wrong target – then would you consider this the right thing for Hanse Davion to do … rather than attacking along a broad front (as per the original 3039 War), what he should have gone for is a limited target area as his projected front line …. Thus with secured flanks and supply lines he can then expand the front as required once wave 1 has been achieved.
What he is attempting to do therefore is, in some ways, copying some of his initial assault strategies through the CC., though in this case it will be through the DC
Also let us consider a new time period:- As the LC’s Isle of Skye region is almost in revolt and in an effort to remove the key points they are a agitating against – security – as well as proving evidence that the new FC is a benefit to the old LC and not a rope around their neck. The new FC decides to attack the DC in the following manner … therefore proving, in the form of a war, that together they can provide security for Skye (by removing the DC proximity to Skye). Also the Union will achieve great things for the new FC – one such when Dieron comes under FC control – many new business opportunities will arise for the people of Skye.
Previously the 3039 War consisted of the following thrusts …
• Commonwealth Trust;
• Dieron Thrust;
• Benjamin Thrust;
• Galedon Thrust;
What I am suggestion Is a new overall attack pattern / objectives / strategy for the FC:-
The New Operational Objective is as much of the Dieron District as possible – starting with those close to Terra and Dieron itself;
With the treat of Dieron itself gone the issues with the Isle of Skye will die Down.
Once complete it will also provide the FC with a spring-board for attacking towards Benjamin.
(Thus we are only really going after these worlds – however if an important world’s defence force is reduced – then they will attack as a target of opportunity in full force)
• Therefore the Benjamin Thrusts and the Galedon Thrusts are to be considered diversions only – Considerable raids, but raids only they are to draw the attention of the DCMS – objective get them believing the main trust is within these two Trusts.
• Main Thrusts however are the Commonwealth and Dieron Thrusts – Consider taking a couple of RCTs from the Benjamin Trusts and the Galedon Trusts and moving them to a new Joint Trust together with additional LC and Mercenary units.
• All Draconis March Forces along the border with the Draconis Combine are to be put on High Alert and are to make appearances that they are about to join the war – leak false information as to possible targets of opportunity etc . give Kurita spys an overload of information and keep them guessing as to the real targets.
Wave 1. Expected duration for success on wave one was nine months – given a couple of months it will become clear that this is the main thrust
Commonwealth Trust – Kessel, Konstance, Vega, Alnasi, Tsukude
Joint Thrust – Dromini IV, Kaus Australis, Ascella, Kuzuu, Kervil
Dieron Thrust – Dieron, Athenry, Pike IV, Telos IV, Nashira, Al Na’ir
Raids 1.
Benjamin Raids – Klathandu IV, New Mendham, Marduk + others
Galedon Raids – Elidere IV, Huan, Capra + others
Commonwealth Raids – Aubisson, Camlann, Trolloc Prime + others
Wave 2. Expected duration for success on wave two was six months
Commonwealth Trust – Altais, Rukbat, Elaning, Alya, Kaus Borealis
Joint Thrust – Shitara, Algedi, Dabih, Albali, Piedmont
Dieron Thrust – Halstead Station, Yance I, Shinonoi, Ashio, Chichibu
Raids 2.
Benjamin Raids – Proserpina (as a capitol world this would divert forces for the second wave)
Galedon Raids – An Ting, Capra
Commonwealth Raids – Buckminster (as a capitol world this would divert forces for the second wave)
Wave 3. Expected duration for success on wave three was six months
Commonwealth Trust – Aubisson, Shionoha, Cebairai, NewWessex
Joint Thrust – assist any wave 2 or wave 3 worlds as required.
Dieron Thrust – Ancha, Sadachbia, Fellanin II, Lapida II
No raids were scheduled for wave three – if required, and transport / proximity was available, these may be assigned to wave 2 worlds to assist with the invasion.
However if By the end of Wave 2 / during Wave 3 if either Buckminster’s or Proserpina’s defence forces are reduced a provision is to be made to allow either LC or FS forces to invade in force with the aim of taking these two capitol worlds in addition to Dieron.
Your thoughts regarding this change in strategy / time then?
How do you think the war would process, would the DCMS be able to stop the new FC or would the FC be able to achieve all their objectives given time?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/14/18 06:39 AM)
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ghostrider
06/14/18 11:49 AM
66.74.61.223
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To my knowledge they were after lopping off Dieron, but hit on a wider front, to cause the DC to spread its reinforcements across the entire border. When the bs of the Lyran command being killed happened, that change the whole idea of it. That along with the Comstar mechs, and ghost regiments. But that is canon history.
Depending on removing the bs, I would think it would succeed. Though I am also assuming the units involved were not changed or added to.
I would think mercs hired after the war started for back up/opportunity raids would be in order. You may get lucky and hit worlds that the normal garrison was move to assist other worlds, but this would change what is sent in.
Why the change? The CC is a valid target, but not one that was a priority at this time. Simple blockade would reduce resources going into the factory worlds. And as I said. Using Candace would have kept them disorganized for a while. A lesser invasion force may well be sent in to help remove those on the throne. Raids on those worlds with factories and even the ship yards is possible with a DC offensive.
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Requiem
06/14/18 10:13 PM
58.175.193.140
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Quote: am also assuming the units involved were not changed or added to.
Yes I am keeping the same units - but may add other's to the raids if transport is available just to keep Kurita guessing what Next?
Also as I am striking early - Comstar providing the DC with new 'Mechs would also be needed to be considered - reduce No. of Ghost regiments - Do they even have them at all?
I agree using Mercenaries as diversionary elements would also be a bonus to the FC - especially if they have their own Jumpships.
I changed my Idea from CC to DC because I believe I/we have reached a point where all that could be said has been said - thus if we are never going to agree just let sleeping dogs lie - try something else and make a new discussion
Yes we could include the CC invasion also into this - either as a limited assault or a major assault - if limited the FC would want at a minimum their Jumpship production facilities - Major - Require all the Space (worlds) upto and including Sian and Grand Base - thus CC down to 1/4 of their Size prior to 4SW - they would also need a new capital World - also everyone would consider them to be the newest Periphery Power ? Ha Ha Ha (the newest FS Joke in all their Pubs once/if the Major Campaign succeeded)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/17/18 05:12 AM
58.175.193.140
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Extract Timeframe regarding the initial 3034 War:-
3030:
September 3030: Waterly met with Takashi's Heir-designate, Gunji-no-Kanrei Theodore Kurita, on Dieron to discuss Operation Rosebud.
3033:
February : Theodore Kurita makes an alliance with the Yakuza, which leads to the formation of the so-called Ghost Regiments.
June: The DCMS receives its first regiment of Star League era ‘Mechs from Comstar.
September: The DCMS receives its second regiment of Star League era ‘Mechs from Comstar.
December: The DCMS receives its third regiment of Star League era ‘Mechs from Comstar.
3034:
Early March: The DCMS receives its fourth regiment of Star League era ‘Mechs from Comstar.
March 13: newly elected Prince Haakon Magnusson declared the formation of the Free Rasalhague Republic
Late March: The Draconis Combine formally recognized the creation of the Free Rasalhague Republic.
May: The First Skye Rebellion begins. Hans Davion adheres to the advice provided by his Lyran affairs team and does nothing in regards to the Skye Rebellion, allowing it to “burn itself out overtime” when the resistance movement does not encounter any formal government resistance – Thus preserving the appearance of a harmonious FC relationship.
May: Meetings between Primus of ComStar Myndo Waterly and Ryan Steiner in this period culminated in an agreement – Information and priority access to HPG in exchange for justification for posting the Com Guards within the Lyran realm after an "unsanctioned" Free Skye attack against a ComStar facility in 3041.
May 23th: DCMS hardliners openly attack the Free Rasalhague Republic to prevent its secession, launching what will later be called the Ronin Wars.
Early June: The DCMS receives its fifth regiment of Star Leage era ‘Mechs from Comstar
June: The Ninth Rasalhague Regulars are destroyed on Engadin by the Second Genyosha.
Mid June: Archon Katrina Steiner of the Lyran Commonwealth and First Price Hanse Davion adhere to the strenuous objections of Duke Selvin Kelswa III, leader of the Tamar Pact, among others. Worlds they have taken from the Rasalhague District will remain within the FC by right of Operation conquest.
Mid June: Taking advantage of Ronin War, the Federated Commonwealth Initiated Operations Winterschnee, Sturmhammer, Gaheris, Launcelot and Orochi, invading both the Draconis Combine and the Capellan Confederation. The first wave’s aims, the conquest of the Draconic Combines entire Dieron District and the worlds within Capellan Confederation to ensure the capture of both their Capital Sian and that of Grand Base are absorbed into the Federated Commonwealth.
< The Wars progress is to be entered from here onwards – however, the following represents key IS historical notes not related to the war – Nt: Due to the war Comstar is unable to supply the DC with additional Star League era ‘Mech regimental units due to security concerns>
Late June: Seeking to further solidify his political position, Ryan Steiner marries Morasha Kelswa, heir to the Tamar Pact.
June 3035: The newly formed KungsArmé and DCMS loyalists succeed in defeating the rogue units, concluding the Ronin Wars. The last of the DCMS regiment withdraws from the Free Rasalhague Republic.
June 3035: Bombing on Marik kills leading family members of House Marik.
• Corinne Marik (Daughter of Paul Marik) is named Captain-General of the Free Worlds League by right of Succession.
July 3035: Duncan Marik initiates a civil war against the Parliamentary forces of Corinne Marik – Declaring himself Captain General of the Free Worlds league by right of experience and rank.
August 3035: Capellan Confederation are unsuccessful in recapturing Liao worlds taken by invading Duchy of Andurien and Magistracy of Canopus forces, as the FC invasion of 3034 have further depleted their available forces.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/18 04:20 PM
66.74.61.223
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Time issue with the Ryan talks. It states 3034, yet the incident with the skye issue was 3041?
One more question. The loyalist DC forces. Wouldn't they get recalled with the FC invasion starting?
That would have a profound effect on the FRR and the DC relations and forces for the FRR.
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Requiem
06/17/18 07:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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3034 – Skye Rebellion – Comstar conducts talks with Ryan – an agreement is made;
3041 – Ryan’s Skye rebels attack a Comstar compound – giving Comstar their “justification” to place the Com Guards upon former LC worlds (Comstar’s HPG stations);
If the loyalist DC forces are called from FRR, whilst the Ronin War is being waged, this would leave the FRR Military to fight the DC Ronin forces on their own – thus you need to ask could the Ronin win, forcing FRR back into the DC – This could also have the secondary effect of invalidating the DC / Comstar agreement thus the DC would not receive any further “Ghost” / Star League ‘Mech Regiments .
This would therefore put Kurita in an impossible position …
Remove his troops from FRR to fight the invasion, an act that could destroy his agreement with ComStar. Or keep them in FRR, and reduce his response to the FC invasion with the hope that ComStar will keep their promise in the future.
So yes as you can see this would have a profound effect upon FRR / DC relations – remove troops and the FRR could fall just as it is being established – at the very least the FRR’s military would be the worse for the DCMS leaving for the FC invasion front .
You should also consider that if the FRR military appears to becoming overrun by DC Ronin the FC could offer the FRR military assistance thus putting the FRR clearly into the FC camp from then on!
Another point Kurita would have to consider when determining whether or not to remove his forces from the FRR during the Ronin War.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/19/18 02:05 AM
58.175.193.140
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So, how would the war go?
Kanrei Kurita would find himself unprepared for this war … given that the Ronin war has only just commenced … and he is undecided as to whether or not to send in a couple/all of his new Ghost Regiments into the War as they have only just completed training within hidden training facilities within the DC. (They are Green and therefore their performance in war would be a complete unknown as they have had only 11 months training at the most) .... or to keep them as a surprise for a future war or counterattack.
Therefore for the DC there is only a couple of paths 1st. keep their units remaining with in the FRR during the Ronin War in the hope it would end quickly – retaining their agreement with ComStar –and once complete allowing the their forces to enter into the FC invasion corridor
(and in all probability keep the existence of his Ghost Regiments hidden until all 13 are ready for combat)
I would therefore assume the FC military would experience initial gains – as the DC is unable to transfer additional forces from their other borders as this could become problematic due to the high level of raids they are experiencing as well as a reduced military within the Dieron area due to the Ronin War.
Once the Ronin War has been completed, and additional DCMS forces become available (ie. they have been repaired and transferred to the front) the FC advance would begin to slow, so mid second – early third wave, fighting would then intensify from there.
The War ceases within the Dieron region as DCMS and FC forces cease hostilities however the FC has gained ground up to either the start or mid third wave objective.
(Possible counterattack in the future lead by the ghost Regiments to win back their lost territory)
2nd path, remove all DCMS forces from the FRR – Ronin Forces continue to wage war against the FRR, the war intensifies as the Ronin take the DCMS forces retreat as a tacit acceptance of their war by their lord Kurita (This war’s duration and intensity will now be extended/increased).
With additional forces the DCMS, and in all likelihood all of the green Ghost Regiments engage the FC advance. Fighting quickly slows / stops the FC first wave assault and the DCMS forces engage each other.
In a twist of irony the FRR seek military assistance from the FC to provide support for their ongoing Ronin War (as it hs not been going well for them) – The FC sends in Mercenary as well as House Units into the FRR to drive back the Ronin Forces from the FRR.
With only the first wave, and possibly half of the second wave complete the FC and the DC cease hostilities within the Dieron Region – However the FRR has accepted FC forces on their worlds to deter any further DCMS invasions as the FC recognise their right to self-determination)
NT: The FC is still not going to return any worlds to the FRR.
With the realisation of the Ghost Regiments Hanse Davion dispatches his intelligence teams to discover their origins.
ComStar is now unwilling to provide the DC with any additional Star League era ‘Mechs due to a possible breach in security, therefore allowing Hanse Davion to find evidence as to ComStar’s duplicity with the DC.
Kurita finds itself is without any additional forces to take back the FC gains at this time.
Nt: A DEST attempt to assassinate the head of the LC military commanders was unsuccessful.
As to worlds of opportunity – maybe a couple changed hands.
So what’s your poison …. ? Path 1 or 2 and why?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/18 11:23 AM
66.74.61.223
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Well not all of the ghost regiments are green. Some had mechs and used them. The fight on Lutien where Theodores friend died. He had a hunchback and was using it like he had training. Not sure of the back story, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had military training before, or even while the was in the yakuza.
As for the paths either could work. I would think the DC would pull forces out of the FRR, as the threat to home is more important then dealing with the ronin at this time. The question is, would he pull all of them? Or some of them?
Depending on how Takashi reacts or interfers, they may have even more losses, as units are moved around. The ghost regiments may be sent in, as Takashi would consider then honorless thugs, not fit to be in the DCMS.
It would be in line with the canon story with Takashi messing with Theodores deployments and battle plans.
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Requiem
06/19/18 06:07 PM
58.175.193.140
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Green relates to experience – they have all just exited training only – thus they are to be considered a green unit – after a couple battles then regular ….. etc. and being Yakuza …. A member of criminal underworld organisation … in which many members are called bullets (thus expendable) … does not mean that they understand military training / doctrine / understand how to work together to achieve overlapping fire arcs etc. … it just means you know how to pilot a ‘Mech put the cross hairs over the target and push a button to fire the weapon …..
Pulling forces out of the FRR is an all or nothing for me …. Pulling just some out shows a lack of commitment, which is not what a trained Samurai would do, and would also be considered a loss of face in front of his Generals … a very un-Kuritan approach to war in my opinion ….
If Theodore knew about the Ghost regiments, then yes he would consider them honourless –in all likelihood he would demand their ‘new’ Star League Era ‘Mechs to be handed over to the Sword of Light units as they are unfit to pilot such vehicles …. Thus you could end up with the Sword of Light Vs. the Ghost units …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/22/18 03:32 PM
66.74.61.223
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The thought came up that it is being planned to counter the clans in the IS before anyone really knew of their existence.
The DC war seems to be needed to be a short war. Not something that might take 30 years or so. A complete full bleeding of Kuritian military. Civil insurrection in the Combine is much more likely then the clans, yet no mention of it here.
Leaving the CC in the original post sounds like there was something missed. But with that, the planning of the clans seems to be the main basis of this.
This is leaving a major logic hole in the game.
Now had it been said 'in my game, this is what happens.' But it looks like defending the idea, it appears it was believed to be that way in the canon version.
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Requiem
06/23/18 03:58 AM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, it is obvious, the writers did have the knowledge of the Clans in advance …. They needed the CC to remain as is … They needed the DC war to be short …. They needed the DC (and perhaps others) to have access to Star League era ‘Mechs and weapon systems …. If the IS forces do not have access to this, given the technological advantage the Clans were given there is no way the IS could have survived the initial invasion … boring game – no sales …. Their major exclusion however, that which was not included though it should have been, was a means of defeating a warship, for with this it gives the game a dimension and an ability to retaliate that is was lacking from the original – more fun – more chances for different types of wars in different settings – could this have led to more sales? May-bee.
The game designers made a real mistake here ….
As for a Civil Insurrection within the DC, their secret police are very good at what they do … say no more!
CC …. Yes something was missed, their destruction comes to mind …. However the IS needs them for the Clan Invasion …. Errrrr no? … back to the allegations that the 4SW was R______t and the only way it can be proved that it wasn’t is to ensure the resurgence of the CC?
Canon is Canon and cannot be changed …. Or can it?
Back to a request by me for a re-write?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/23/18 04:14 AM
66.74.61.223
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There is alot that needs to be fixed, long before the 3025 era, much less afterwards. I don't think half the crap that happened would have, or would have been alot different.
Reverse engineering should have been done on any League mech found in storehouses. The crap of just coming out of the stone ages in the 3025 era is that. Crap. The NAIS would have had working models if not a full schematic ready for mass production. Even if it was just the double sinks. The good ones, not the brittle ones.
Even just using the units themselves for their elites would have happened. And it didn't.
As for the topic, the CC should not have survived the fourth war. But as noted, they could not use it to start more wars in the future without them.
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Requiem
06/24/18 05:40 AM
58.175.193.140
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Yes I agree, there is a lot that needs to be addressed such as those issues you have addressed.
This would then provide the IS forces with additional resources to fight the oncoming Clans ….
As for the CC and the 4SW …
In order for the complete destruction of the CC the war’s duration would have to be extended by 12 to 18 months … therefore the DC would fight an extended war with more planets being won and lost by both sides with no real clear winner … the CC is destroyed, their empire annexed into the FC … and the FWL, sometime during this 12 – 18 months the FWL would seek a capitulation of hostilities – Hanse would therefore demand multiple worlds as the price – and this would be paid by them – Politically we would then need to ask if the Captain General could survive such an action or be required to abdicate …. Me, I would suggest abdication as he is now a failed leader..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/02/18 07:31 AM
58.175.193.140
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With a new capitol world between the federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth –also its proximity to Terra – a declaration of becoming the next “First Lord of a resurrected Star League” …
A political statement that must be made post 4SW …
How would you name this new world?
Theology –
Mythology (Norse / Camelot) – Valhalla / Camelot
The last Lord of the Star League “Cameron” –
Or a single word of power and strength. –
Historical – Rome, Athens, Troy, London
Suggestions …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/02/18 12:25 PM
66.74.61.223
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There lies a very big can of worms. Any change to capital worlds for either side of the FC would set off a lot of issues with both sides.
Founding one for the entire FC is probably what you are talking about, while keeping New Avalon/Tharkad as being the capital of the FS/LC keeping those people happy.
And with your alt of the FC being the dominant nation, why not just take Terra? That historic world would say more about subjecting the others to their will then even first lord title. It would also show dominance over Comstar as well.
And change out the name of first lord. First Prince would be more appropriate for the FS side at least. First Archon would make the LC side happy.
And to be honest. What would say strength in a single world, more then the birth world of the entire human race?
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Requiem
07/02/18 07:47 PM
58.175.193.140
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ComStar is the third rail of the Inner Sphere – touch it and Zapp…
Unfortunately you cannot invade and take Terra – Politics get in the way, as ComStar is still a power block and, more importantly, people require a “sense of certainty”, in that ComStar is underpinning the idea that the Star League could be resurrected.
Also, without ComStar the entire HPG net throughout the entire Inner Sphere will Crash causing absolute havoc – destroying entire economies and societies on many worlds due to a lack of food, medicine etc.
Also how will the military react to invasions if they don’t know its occurring …..
Thus ComStar must, due to politics, be the last to fall – they must be seen as the kingmaker – they must give their acceptance (forced by the winner) as to who the next First Lord of the resurrected Star League is to be.
Suggestions of names for the capitol of the FC?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/03/18 07:02 AM
58.175.193.140
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Suggestions:-
Sovereynte’ – (Sovereignty) From the Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle
Libertatum - (Magna Carta) – Liberty
Reformation
Hope
Valkyrie
Rubicon
Artemis
Asgard
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/03/18 08:43 PM
66.74.61.223
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Interesting that so much faith is put into the black boxes, yet it is suggested that the FC needs comstar.
And there is nothing wrong with reestablishing the Star League from earth, with comstar being the protector of the coms system.
Making it the capital of the FC, would be the ultimate victory for the FC. The ego thing about needing to be first lord should point this direction, but some how doesn't. Does that mean the argument used before doesn't work here?
Destroying comstar may well be how the FC would finally rule the other houses. No coms past the terrain corridor except for jumps ships would mean news could not reach the other nations quick enough to do anything.
As suggested, every world should have one as well as every RCT. No coms going out of the FC, so spies would not be able to report out, yet a simple relay in other nations would allow your spies to get information in.
Wait. Did that show one of the major steps in war could be accomplished?
Destroying the enemies ability to attack your forces.
Do you blindly strike out, hoping that you did not send your troops into a trap, or worse, they get stuck there and destroyed at the enemies leisure?
It was during the 3039 war that the DC got ahold of the black boxes. If that didn't happen, then the FC would have the means to blind the entire IS. Destroy the HPGs on worlds as you can. No more organized forces to help them.
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Requiem
07/03/18 10:15 PM
58.175.193.140
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Attacking and conquering ComStar Circa 3040 is quite impossible for a number of reasons 1. Public Perception 2. Politics 3. Technological 4. Economics
1. Public Perception:-
Remember they are a quasi-religious order who are also a humanitarian organisation a public benevolent organisation and a communications organisation all at the same time.
Thus in our terms it is a mix of Dali Lama, with Unicef, Dr’s without borders, Green Peace and CNN all in one.
2. Politics:-
If anyone would use their military on such an organisation, both their citizens and their military would believe their leader had ‘slipped a gear’ to the point they needed replacement – even though their intelligence organisation would understand the reasons.
3. Technological:-
How would a state be able to coerce each HPG’s Comstar Acolytes (on every planet) to operate the HPG machinery – as they are the only ones who know how to operate them?
(again you would think the military would balk at such an idea of using force upon ComStar)
4. Economics:-
With an unwilling Acolyte refusing to send messages the economy of the state would implode, destroying whole planets economies that could take generations to fix.
Back to the Capital Worlds Name then?
Argo (for the Argonauts)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/03/18 10:19 PM)
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ghostrider
07/03/18 10:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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Where did you get the question of forcing comstar to operate the HPGs?
Nothing was said to force them to do anything of the sort.
Suggesting the black boxes would be massed produced and give to all planetary leaders, as well as military leaders, how did you get forcing comstar to send messages?
The fact comstar had already hit the FS with an interdiction would well be why the FC would remove their influence from the FC. It would be difficult, but not impossible to use comstars actions to justify this. Something as simple as providing 'evidence' of them giving the other nations information about the military and even business dealings in the FC. Implications are more effective then actual facts for this sort of action. Even using counter attacks and pirate raids could be made to look as comstar is trying to do harm to the people.
The IS population would be more willing to believe such information then the clan population would believe their way of life is not the right way of life.
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Requiem
07/03/18 11:41 PM
58.175.193.140
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If you conquer Terra – how do you get each HPG station to operate? Force or bribery ?
You still require HPGs even if you did have the Black Boxes - they have limited amount of information that can be sent as they are little better than a Fax Machine where a HPG is e-mail with video and data compression allowing huge amounts of information to be sent at one time – so yes you will still need the HPG even if you also have the Black Boxes.
As for getting people to believe ComStar is an evil organisation could you say that of many of the humanitarian organisation that are in existence today …. It would be that difficult
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 02:51 AM
66.74.61.223
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Why worry about the HPGs?
You use the black boxes from then on, so there is no need for the HPG. And there will be some that will come over from Comstar to work for the FC.
Even spies sent into the organization will know how to run them. Not all were found by ROM. The one from the DC that warned of operation Scorpion is a good one for an example.
Greed will bring out those willing to work the network, as the lure of being in charge of the one they work at, instead of being the janitor will bring forth those willing to do so.
The way Katherine is written, she is a manipulator of epic proportions. Simple things like delaying in shipping supplies needed to a world could start the chain of blaming Comstar for not sending the message, or suggesting they didn't receive it. Katherine is very much capable and willing to assassinate anyone that gets in her way, so the first circuit would be a minor issue. Take out their jumpships as they travel the stars. Blame pirates and such. You wanted your so called duck. She is it.
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Requiem
07/04/18 05:38 AM
58.175.193.140
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Why Worry about HPGs?
As stated before – the size and speed of data that can be transferred – it is the difference between a Fax Machine and the Internet e-mail system
I suggest you conduct more research re “ducks” …. Katherine is just you run of the mill dictator …. She is very far removed from being a “duck”, so therefore no she is not a “Duck”.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 06:14 PM
66.74.61.223
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So these boxes would not be able to send data like video?
Katherine is more likely to kill others then any run of the mill dictator. She is one to use military and economical might to extort and bring anyone to the knees that even hinted are resisting her. She didn't really care how many people died from it. When this did not work, she would have them all killed, but declaring them traitors, or assassins.
The only thing she didn't do is discriminate against specific races. She would kill any and all, no matter who they were. Even family. So how is this not one that shines as an example of a duck?
The only difference is the military was not fanatical about killing civilians that stepped out of line.
In most ways, she is worse then the way you describe the clans. At least they all knew the laws, and knew what to expect.
She buried the misdeeds by propaganda and out right lies.
There is no defending her. She was rotten to the core and willing to do whatever to be the first lord.
With this, it makes sense on why the alt history goes the way it does. Katherine is being portrayed as the savior of the IS.
Defending the alt history as the only way it has to go is pushing the idea on others.
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Requiem
07/04/18 10:26 PM
58.175.193.140
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Correct the boxes are unable to send video.
Errrr… your description of Katherine is that of a petty dictator only …
A ‘Duck’ is much worse …
Eugenics – race superiority – Secret police (purge the populations) – show trials – no civil liberties – the state comes first – detention / re-education / death camps – society becomes more stratified than it already is (breaks down completely) etc
Sorry I disagree clans are much more insidious / violent and uncaring of their citizens than that of Katherine – she lies yes but she didn’t rewrite / limit access their entire history so as to reflect their point of view … and then destroy peoples individual identity … etc
Remember this quote … he who burs books will soon be burning bodies …..
No defending the cannon history is giving in to poor writing that could have been so much more if they had just thought about what they writing about …. Thus the request for a rewrite and allow the gamers to choose Version 1 or Version 2 …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/17/18 06:55 AM
58.175.193.140
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PRESS RELEASE: November 13, 3042 - EXTRACT
… following on with our initial report, it has now been just over one year since the former Capellan Confederation capitulated to vastly superior forces and were subsequently integrated into the Federated Commonwealth.
We can now report that these new Federated Commonwealth citizens, within the newly named Leagues March, are experiencing a level of freedom they have never experienced before as their economy and their lifestyle is on the improve under the direction of their Duchess Nelitha Green-Davion, the former Minister of Federated Suns’ Administrative Services.
Duchess Nelitha Green-Davion has just now announced that the Federated Commonwealth in partnership with Federated-Boeing Interstellar, Bowie Industries and Ioto Galactic Enterprises have repaired the damaged (and newly re-named) Port Cassiopeia Naval Shipyards in orbit above Capella.
This shipyard, once owned by the then Star League Era Companies, Delhi Warships and Rashpur-Owens incorporated was severely damaged during the First Succession War, and was unable to be repaired under their former administrations.
However, they have now been returned to their former operational capabilities under the dedicated direction of the Federated Commonwealth’s Duchess Nelitha Green-Davion.
Sources within Green-Davion administration have confirmed that production of a Vengeance Class Military Dropship will begin shortly within this newly operational Naval Shipyard. These same sources have also indicated that sometime within 3046 both the Port Simon Naval Shipyards (located within the Federated Suns) and the Port Sydney Naval Shipyards (located within the Lyran Commonwealth) are also expected to begin production of these same Vengeance Class Dropships ….
As report by Nana Mitsuharah, Reporter CMM.
……. CMM report to be sent via HPG to all affiliates stations via ComStar Station on …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/03/18 07:40 AM
58.175.193.140
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With House Davion becoming the inheritors of the Capellan Confederation with all its positives
Increased number of Worlds and their populations (and a new Leagues Mach that will require a new Duke);
New Military units from former Captured / destroyed Capellan Units;
Armaments industries;
Increased Jumpship / Dropship Fleet;
Increased Agricultue / Mining etc
And all the less than desirable – secessionists / freedom fighters etc.
In addition to this the Federated Suns have formed a new relationship with the Magistracy of Canopus and the Duchy of Andurien. As they have become a minor power by amalgamating their states.
In addition the new Federated Commonwealth will receive a new Capital World within the Terran Corridor such as New Earth – as a symbol of their two realms unity (in reality a symbol of their dominance over the remaining Houses and their Claim to being the next House of the First Lord).
So what’s next …
• St Ives becomes its own mini state - thoughts of grandeur?
• Skye attempts to become its own state – also thoughts of grandeur?
• Potential detent with the Free Worlds League that could in time, becomes one State with the Federated Commonwealth (political marriage)?
• The Draconis Combine becoming more and more isolated?
• Free Rassalhauge Republic / Ronin War?
…. and in the Combine’s isolation – an attempted alliance with the Free Worlds League and war.
Attempt to destroy the Federated Commonwealth Alliance – assist Ryan Steiner in his bid for self-determination / becoming the next Archon.
However, what else can happen
Civil War within the Free Worlds League with the assassination of the current House Marik’s Captain General and heirs. (Will the Combine assist one side and the Federated Commonwealth assist the other in a proxy war for the title of First Lord by utilizing hidden systems to jump their forces into the Free Worlds league)
… and as for the Periphery States
At one time during the Federated Suns Past (2581) the Federated Suns provided the Outworlds Alliance with a brigade of elite soldiers mustered from the Davion Brigade of Guards in return for twelve boarder Systems.
So how about renewing this allegiance by stabbing Kurita in the back?
As for the remaining states – the usual or is there any other thing that could be included? Raiding / Exploration / Pirate Vs. Pirate
ComStar – Behind the scenes – assisting Kurita and anyone who is against the Federated Commonwealth or does a schism evolve within Comstar as those who can see the rebirth of the Star League becoming a reality and Comstar’s Blakean Theocracy is becoming an impediment towards this. Thus a hidden war within Comstar?
Other Players in the game make their presence known ….
The Black Dragon Society aim to remove Theodore as he is not seen as a traditional Kurita. (Another internal War?)
And then there are the mercenary objectives throughout the Sphere …
All of this before the Clans ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
12/14/18 12:07 AM
58.175.193.140
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And what are the unexpected consequences of the fall of the Capellan Confederation?
First,
The influx of vast sums of money to re-build their economy together with previous racism (cultural tension) will lead to tension between the older Camellan’s March and the newer League’s March.
Especially when former Capellan’s March Military Units are transferred to the newer League’s March.
Thus many could perceive the Capellan’s Mach as loosing much of its prestige to League’s March (Capellans).
A bitter rivalry could evolve between the the two Dukedoms of the Federated Suns / Federated Commonwealth
This could even lead to low level fighting between the two.
Second,
A hidden society within the former Capellan Confederation will be formed with one aim to restore the Capellan Confederation to its former prestige. Thus terrorists, assassins and saboteurs may become prevalent throughout the new League’s March.
The rise of a criminal underworld – that could lead to a corrupt element within the League’s March.
Third,
Many may even welcome the new government as the level of their lifestyle increases, thus conflict between the old guard and the new clash politically / and within the shadows physically.
Fourth,
Former Capellan Units (even House Units) may seek asylum within either the Periphery or the Free Worlds League – raids are conducted by these units within the new Leagues March.
Fifth,
The elements that springboard a dictator to power may be utilized (i) economic poverty – the inability to feed the population – (ii) political instability – an era of crisis (iii) hyper –inflation (a failed economy from prosperity to poverty. Thus life within the state gets worse over time as uncertainty rises, people therefore look for a strong leader to fix the problem especially when that person promises to restore the state to a position of strength – thus the people will have pride in the country once more. This therefore could lead to the development of a Dictator.
Sixth,
Sun Tzu is kidnapped by DEST - used as a figurehead to legitimize a government in exile (and supported by the Draconis Combine).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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giaonhan247
12/24/18 04:41 AM
113.161.57.110
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hi
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Requiem
12/31/18 08:46 PM
58.175.193.140
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Further consequences
Converting the former citizens of the Capellan Confederation to become loyal citizens of the Federated commonwealth requires the use of baubles (Napoleon once wrote … it is with such baubles that I will rule them …)
By improving the quality of their lives through such baubles, together with education prospects that will improve the social standing of their children will loyalty be ensured.
However there will always be malcontents
Thus security forces will be required (especially within the initial years) …. and as such mercenary contracts will be issued throughout the new Leagues March to ensure civil stability.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/06/19 02:40 AM
1.158.130.13
|
In my new post entitled “Obscure issues in history that have little reason …..”, we come to find out about the lost world of Aosia.
“Aosia’s Coordinates X:Y 112.622 : -141.194 - thus the closest planets to this is Remshield X:Y 97.445 : -139.89”
We also come to know that it was a fortress world established to assist with raids into the Capellan Confederation and where sometime prior to 3025 it was abandoned for one reason or another and was subsequently lost to the majority of all maps due to its lack of significance.
However, some maps and people know about the history of this world and its significance as a forward strike base into the Capellan Confederation.
However, this post - that was established as an Alt Universe where the new FC attacks and conquers the CC in the War of 3039-40 – Operation Rat Revival – The Capellan’s Fall War did not include missing worlds such as Aosia.
Thus I will now amend my original invasion to include the world of Aosia, so that some time prior to the invasion (let me say six to nine months prior to the invasion) an expeditionary unit is sent to Aosia – where the FC unit was ordered to reconnaissance the entire planet as well as the abandoned fortress – once they believe they have a secure world Prince Hanse Davion “the Fox” will begin to utilize the world as a forward strike / resupply base hidden from CC military intelligence – to this end the FC transfer large quantities of materials and units to the world of Aosia – with a long term plan to resupply their units within their sector from this world – that is the Capella Wave 1 Sector - as from March 3039.
As noted above the Capella Wave 1 - March 3039 included the following …
Target World..........................................Defending Forces.......................................Invading Forces
Kurragin................................................. Stapelton's Grenadiers (2nd Btln)..............15th Arcturian Guards
Cordiagr................................................. Stapelton's Grenadiers (1st Btln).............. 2nd Robinson Rangers
Capella...................................................Blanfords Grenadiers;.................................5th Syrtis Fusiliers RCT
...............................................................House Matsukai (2 Btlns) .......... 6th Syrtis Fusiliers RCT; and Grimm Detrmination
No Return.............................................. House Hiritsu (1st Btln).............................. Eridani Light House (1st Rgmt)
Randor................................................... House Hiritsu (2nd Btln)............................. Eridani Light House (2nd Rgmt)
Kashilla.................................................. Stapelton's Grenadiers (3rd Btln)................ 12th Vegan Rangers (1st & 2nd Rgmt)
Exedor.................................................... House Ijori (1st Btln)................................... 12th Vegan Rangers (3rd & 4th Rgmt)
I can thus assume some of these units could have been assigned to the world of Aosia prior to the invasion and conquest of the Capellan Confederation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/06/19 03:14 AM
1.158.130.13
|
You could even assume the Capellan’s have long memories as well and once the war kick’s off that someone remembers the world of Aosia – and they determine that there is a possibility that there is a strategic supply base upon this world.
Thus they dispatch a unit to raid this world.
If the FC forces defending this world win – the war continues on as per normal.
However, if the CC forces attacking this world win – the war within the Capellan front either slows down or stops due to a lack of military supplies (that is until a new source of materials can be sourced – thus the war will re-start again)
Thus there is an interesting side battle that will have a very large consequence to the duration of the war.
Many units could retreat / reform - create new units from the survivors of other units - establish a new defensive line or even be transported to the Capitol - thus making the final battle larger and more destructive than that of the original notes regarding the final battle.
this change to the war will thus provide many new battles, that could be upon other worlds not even considered before or CC units upon other worlds may find that reinforcements / relief units are on the way ...
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/06/19 10:48 PM)
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Requiem
07/25/19 11:49 PM
1.158.206.105
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However what is the aim of St. Ives at this stage - their aim at this time would include –
Expanding St. Ives – by allowing former CC worlds, who are in close proximity to St. Ives, to defect to them may prove for some to be more favourable than becoming absorbed into the FC – with the outbreak of war and the realisation that the CC is going to fall many worlds will automatically shift their allegiance to the remaining Liao within St. Ives.
This in turn will preserve many worlds and the civilians who live there from the ravages of war.
The defection of Regular Military and Mercenary Units to St Ives – realising the fall of CC is inevitable may unit commanders may automatically request from St Ives recognition of their change in allegiance.
How many of the CC regular and mercenary units would defect to the new enlarged St.Ives Compact?
Rather than taking up Hanses’ offer to become a mercenary of the FC the following will declare their allegiance to St. Ives:-
Bullard’s Armoured Cavalry
Ambermarle’s Highlanders
Little Richard’s Panzer Brigade
Tooth of Ymir
Olson’s Rangers
And Possibly:-
15th Dracon
4th Tau Ceti Rangers
Regular Units – who may Change sides:-
Many battered units who are forced from their initial garrisons may rather than fleeing to Sian may end up on St. Ives where they are reformed into new units.
Warrior Houses – they are not known for their pragmatism, thus I would conclude many may fight to the last. However, if their Warrior house was to look at the end game and suggest it was their duty to see to the rebirth of the CC rather than be there at its fall the possibility of a Warrior House surviving could be all too real.
In the future where Sun-Tzu Liao (saved from the fall of Sian with his sister) could attempt a Coup of St. Ives to reform the CC, it would be from one or more of these surviving Warrior Houses he would find the military support he would need.
Thus the remnants of Houses …..Hiritsu, LuSann and Ijori could be considered as candidates, who over time could once more expand in size.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ZekeCrane
10/11/19 03:17 PM
12.247.167.54
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I am reminded of a goofy Battletech/Frozen fanfic which tweaked the timeline, just a little later down the road, against the poor Capellans.
In OTL, Hanse Davion allows Candace Liao to extract revenge for the death of her husband Justin. However, in the fic, Hanse decides he's had enough of Liao shenanigans (because they're cruel and tragic). Hanse politely informs Candace she can work with him to preserve something of Capella and its culture, but Romano Liao and her progeny have to go.
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ghostrider
10/13/19 11:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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That is more like what should have happened, then the canon story. The Liao line in charge should have been removed.
Candace was not perfect, but far better leader for the CC. Sun Tzu's story is ok, but was predictable.
Kai should have taken over at some point, to avoid further blood shed of the Capellan people. But then that would have removed the entire CC from their comeback.
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ZekeCrane
10/15/19 01:26 PM
12.247.167.54
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Pretty much. I can buy the writers not wanting to completely eliminate a Great House from the Inner Sphere, but Justin's assassination would have pissed off Hanse beyond belief.
From the fic:
3052 - Operation Reciprocity is launched. 15 AFFC RCTs along with several regiments from the Saint Ives Compact and the Northwind Highlanders mercenary unit launch a decapitation strike on Sian and other key worlds in the Confederation. Romano is condemned by her own words as ordering the complete destruction of the planet with hidden WMDs for 'their total failure' as she attempts to flee, but she is stopped and killed by her sister, having 'risen' from the dead and snuck onto the planet to lie in wait for her. Her partner Tsen Shang dies alongside her. The entire conversation with Romano giving the order to destroy the planet for failing her is rebroadcast across Sian and the Confederation at the same time. What little loyalist support there had been mostly collapses leaving little for the AFFC troops to mop up as units in droves swear loyalty to the new regime. MIIO agents assasinate Kali Liao and Sun Tzu Liao who are off planet at the time, successfully framing their mother for the deed. In the weeks that follow, announcements of the re-joining of Saint Ives to the Confederation, the pending return of two thirds of the worlds lost in the 4th Succession War and the formalisation of the alliance with the Federated Commonwealth, including open markets and economic aide, dramatically increase support for Chancellor Candace across the Confederation.
Personally, I think Hanse would've tossed a lot more than 15 RCTs, especially with the detente he had with Theodore Kurita. Whole lotta Draconis March units could use some live fire experience, after all.
The fun part is that because Sun-Tzu's not around to court Isis Marik, and because the 'crazy' side of the Liao tree is permanently pruned, Hanse Davion doesn't die from a heart attack. He DOES suffer a less dangerous one, which forces him to pull Victor from the Clan frontlines to start taking up some of Hanse's burdens (specifically, Victor is named Lord of the Crucis March).
All SORTS of shifts in the Inner Sphere situation with this change. 
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ghostrider
10/15/19 01:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the time line was the same with the clan invasion, there is very good reason not to have more then 15 hit the CC.
The clans had barely been stopped, and there would be no real reason to believe they would honor the truce.
But in earlier discussion about this, I said it was bs that the FC didn't hit Cappella. Damage the ship yards and warehouses on that world or in system to remove the CC's ability to make dropships and jump ships. If they had, the cc would have become less then some of the periphery states in means of attack ability. Not just making new ones, but they would have severely cut into repair facillities as well.
But they didn't do anything of the sort.
Just threatening the ship yards would have drawn off more defenders, allowing a much more devastating attack on those left, including the MAC. They would have been called up to defend that world, leaving them weakened on Sarna.
Removing the CC in the 3039 war is one thing I agree with Requim on. The DC was still probably the better choice, had the ship yards been damaged. It would have allowed a small mount of troops to raid the hell out of what remained of the CC, and even gained worlds from it. The Comstar line of the DC invasion was a bit much to take, but again. Destroying the DC, or even heavily damaging it would have cause issue with the player base. Also, it would have allowed the IS to respond better to the clan invasion.
It could have even removed the extra comstar mechs in the DC, had the FC taken Capella. The extra ships would have given them that much more ability to move troops.
Now this part,
The fun part is that because Sun-Tzu's not around to court Isis Marik, and because the 'crazy' side of the Liao tree is permanently pruned, Hanse Davion doesn't die from a heart attack. He DOES suffer a less dangerous one, which forces him to pull Victor from the Clan frontlines to start taking up some of Hanse's burdens (specifically, Victor is named Lord of the Crucis March).
is something the author of the alt line being discussed would have fits about. It would stop the entire rise of Katherine Steiner, by removing almost all of her power before she got it.
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ZekeCrane
10/15/19 10:57 PM
47.36.235.237
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>> If the time line was the same with the clan invasion, there is very good reason not to have more then 15 hit the CC.
The clans had barely been stopped, and there would be no real reason to believe they would honor the truce. <<
Eh, good point. This was after all 3052, and the Inner Sphere had yet to reach anywhere close to technological parity with the Clans. Fifteen might've been all Hanse could afford.
>>is something the author of the alt line being discussed would have fits about. It would stop the entire rise of Katherine Steiner, by removing almost all of her power before she got it. <<
Depends. I don't think there's ever been a proper explanation for why Katherine went off the rails (beyond the vague 'she's more of a Steiner than a Davion' remark by Focht -- a hilarious comment considering who HE was).
Let's presume -- for the sake of argument -- her intentions were to cover the political front for her brother, and she grew frustrated because he seemed completely oblivious to her work behind the scenes. That could certainly twist her to the point where she says 'Screw it, I have a REALM to rule' and starts taking steps towards sole rulership of the FC. I admit this is ALL conjecture, by the way; if you have a canon source that contradicts me, please let me know.
But in this new timeline, Victor is now being trained to cover the political as well as military angles. He'll probably always be fairly straightforward, much like his father when Hanse was younger; but Katherine might find herself put under less stress and as a result, fails to begin her 'start of darkness'. This results in a Katherine who does not turn into a power hungry monster.
And if the monster was always there, well, now she has to knock off BOTH parents. Tricky and dangerous, since if she only gets one, the other will most certainly be on guard.
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ghostrider
10/16/19 12:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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It is my opinion that Katherine 'went off the rails' because of a few reasons. Greed being the main one.
It would come in multiple forms.
First, she would have an ego that would make her assume she was the savior of the IS. But with that, she had to kill her mother, to avoid being put in a bad light, as Melissa was loved by a lot more then Katherine was.
Second, she was second in line, and Victor didn't seem like he was going to just hand over the reigns to her before the clans showed up, and even then, it was only his lack of paying attention to her games, that he left to perform the Trial of Refusal on the clans home worlds.
Third, ties in to the first. Jealousy. Mom was getting all the attention, and she was deep in the shadows as she grew up. Dad was always going to be a shining star, and she wanted to impress him, but again, Victor was the main focus.
Fourth would come as she learned she could control others easily, and craved that power. So she started to learn to manipulate things to gain it. Respect is great when you can get it, but fear works when you can't. Being the first daughter of the military genius, and the beloved ruler allowed her to indulge in things, and showed she would not live up to either parents reputation. So destroying those under them started to look good. The idea that if I can't be the best, then make sure all others look worse.
Now the issue of Katherine sending the assassin to kill Melissa might be enough to put the idea of her trying to run the political parts of the realms to rest. So even before she took the FC from Victor, she was already getting rid of potential rivals.
Victor was too naive to think Yvonne could keep Katherine in her place. Granted, that may well have been the last straw that sent Katherine over the edge completely.
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Requiem
10/19/19 07:54 PM
1.158.182.82
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Katherine's grievance .... being the second born - never to be the ruler - though in her mind the more worthy to rule as she constantly outperformed Victor in all things and yet was never to be given the throne just because Victor was born first.
This indignity could not stand - Victor had to go ... one way or the other so that she could rule as she would be superior to that of her brother "the midget toy soldier"
and this is where the writers made their mistake .... Katherine would have sent her assassin against Victor not her Mother - as he is the only impediment to her rule.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/20/19 02:04 AM
66.74.60.165
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Katherine would have sent her assassin against Victor not her Mother - as he is the only impediment to her rule.
I agree that Katherine would have sent assassins against Victor.
I don't agree that he was her only impediment. Victor had asked his mother to stay on after Hanse died, as he didn't feel he was ready to rule.
It may well have been, Katherine realized he knew he needed some training, and wanted to make sure he didn't get it. Had he stepped back from the military man, he would have been a leader of the FC. Not just the military.
There is another possible factor. Katherine was raised and trained in the LC portion of the FC. It could be that she was upset that her father was ignoring her for Victor. The distance between capitals doesn't register in sibling rivalry in the scorned persons mind.
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Requiem
11/15/19 02:34 AM
1.158.182.82
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Another consideration to the War of 3039
History lesson – The Battle of Inchon 9/15/1950 – The United Nations Command had withdrawn to Busan in the South following a North Korean attack, supported by China and the Soviet Union, but this operation revitalized the UN Forces.
The largest landing operation since WWII – troops landed at the port of Inchon, captured Seoul, and cut off North Korean supplies.
In the terms of Winston Churchill – striking at the soft underbelly
In Battletech Terms –
First wave – as per the Canon war of 3039
Amendment – prior to the start of 3039 – Federated Suns forces establish bases deep within Outworlds Alliance – They then strike at key worlds deep within the DCMS –
SUGGESTED TARGETS – Galedon V, New Samarkland, Oshika, Pesht, Kagoshima, and finally Luthien
Aim –
Step 1 – due to the main assault – the DCMS must gather their forces to fight off the deep strike FC forces (which means other places will be less protected – New Targets of Opportunity for FC forces along the borders)
Step 2 – the FS forces can either attack the suggested targets, above, or circle around behind the DCMS forces and pincer them – Main Targets – Supply Bases
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
11/16/19 07:48 PM
1.158.182.82
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Target:- The Outworlds Alliance
Conquering this periphery realm can be considered to being the first step to conquering the DC!
There is no way the DC could ensure their military (circa 3039) could satisfactorily ensure they have enough forces to guard the entirety of the FC border.
In my opinion, it could be considered they would have to reduce their forces along the new FRR border to ensure they hold the new border along the new “Outworlds Alliance March” border. However if the Steiner’s entered into a mutual defense agreement with FRR and considering the issues the Marik’s were having I would suggest they would stay out of a newly initiated the 5th Succession War (where the DC is now the Primary target) the DC’s only hope would be to reduce their realms size and then attempt to maintain a new border with a reduced supply channel – similar to that of the CC.
The only question would be how much would the DC have to give up, to ensure they are not completely conquered by the FC.
Even with their new regiments from Comstar I doubt they would survive for long without reducing the size of the DC realm and then attempting to hold the line at this new border.
Their new border could possibly become the – half of the Alshain District, Albiero Prefecture, Kagoshima Prefecture and the Ningxia Prefecture.
So I ask why the Outworlds Alliance was never invaded?
Strategically and tactically for the FS (FC) this is the way to damage the DC
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/17/19 02:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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Human history would suggest that appeasement does not work. Didn't work in WWII, it wouldn't work in 3000 and later.
Conquering the OA is not something Hanse wanted to do. Both the OA and the FRR were doing a balancing act to keep this very fact from happening. They could not be seen favoring one or the other, as they knew they would get invaded.
From what it is looking like, this is all a numbers idea again. FC has x amount of troops, while DC has y amount.
To attack and take the OA, the FC would have to devote a lot of resources to do so, making it possible the DC could hit them hard, and take out more units then even a straight up invasion of the DC might well take out.
As Hanse was one to try to show some sort of decency to the entire IS, invading the OA, would very much turn the public, as well as other realms against him. It would show the FS portion of the FC as bullies, ready to take out anyone in their way.
This would prompt the LC to rise up, and the other realms as well as smaller entities, like the periphery states, independent worlds and such to have to strike, or risk being taken one at a time. Stand together or fall separately concept here.
If Objective Raids source book is correct, the OA would not contribute anything the soaking off troops to garrison their worlds, as the CC massively out produces weapons of war, then the OA. Staging on worlds outside of the OA would be a better idea, as the number of troops required to hold the area would be far less, and still allow you the flank striking ability.
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Requiem
11/17/19 05:46 AM
1.158.182.82
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Where is it written Hanse did not want to invade the OA? – he gives his all in war and would go straight for your neck – if he could use the OA to destroy the DC once and for all he would – he is a conqueror not a person concerned with what other people think of him? And who would say they shouldn’t invade if he can convince the FC people this could be the campaign to end the DC once and for all – the Draconis March (Sandovals) would be all for it, so with them on his side who would say no?
Sorry but I cannot see why the LC would rise up – they went with the Canon 3039 War – and when you realize that by attacking the OA it could take DC units off their mutual border to fight in the OA (thus making it easier for them to attack) why would they complaign? The brunt of the attack will be taken by the FC not the LC.
It is not a matter of appeasement as the leaders of the OA would not have as say in the matter – sooner or later either the FS or the DC should have / would have invaded the OA to gain a tactical / strategic advantage to invade the other – WWII rather than go against the Maginot Line you just go around it!
The FC (Hanse) is not going to take the entirety of the OA – just those worlds along the border and those worlds to ensure the safety of his forward invasion bases that he will use to strike deep within the DC to destroy their supply routes – force the DC to assign forces from the front / border worlds to fight this new threat – or get in behind the DC forces in a flanking maneuver.
To me this is just another huge ‘plot’ hole where the games developers let the war of 3039 story down.
Both the FS and the DC should have battled to gain a strategic advantage – establishing bases to strike at the rear of their enemy’s border.
Circa 3039 Numbers – just a few years prior there was the 4th SW so saying they could not invade due to numbers (in my opinion) does not hold water – by invading the DC is the realm most at risk due to their short-fall in numbers – the DC does in no way have sufficient forces to engage in any long term invasion of the FC– and any forces they take away to fight in the OA will create a gaps for the FC to exploit. Extending the length of the border can only harm the DC whilst providing the FC with the opportunity to force the DC to retreat to a new more sustainable border (reduced in size) in an attempt to preserve the realm when things start to bad.
Also remember the CC are down to next to no forces – any adventurism on their part in 3039 will see them utterly destroyed by the FC.
Thomas Marik only gained the throne from Duncan in 3037 and the FWL are in no way ready to engage in another succession war so close the last – in all probability if offered a non aggression pact with the FC he would take it – yes he would put his forces on full alert but I doubt he would send his forces to invade the FC - the risk of yet again mass defeat is not worth it. Better to start rebuilding / retraining his military (an expansion upon the current home defense act) to repel the FC in the future would be the most logical course of action – or looking for a suitable bride for Victor would be the other.
Thus the DC are completely on their own!
In my opinion, this new expanded 3039 war would have been far more exciting that the Canon story!
Thus a new Alt Universe setting for this war should be considered for those who like to modify the Canon history.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
11/17/19 06:08 AM
1.158.182.82
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My Alt Universe Plot twist to the War of 3039
The DC created a copy of the Wolfs Dragoons, so why not have a FC copy?
Four new FC RCTs – Trained by the Wolfs …. In 3038 they establish secret bases in OA and just prior to the outbreak of war they would start a deep strike – raiding many of the DCs regional capitol worlds and those worlds that hold any military / civilian importance – forcing the DCMS to remove forces from elsewhere to engage this threat in their rear.
Once removed FC spies will then notify the FC of the vulnerability and strike accordingly.
Thus your home forces can be DCMS or FCMS in this new war game of 3039.
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/17/19 01:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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First. The appeasement isn't the OA settling for it, but the DC as stated "The only question would be how much would the DC have to give up, to ensure they are not completely conquered by the FC."
Your said it yourself several times. The DC would be destroyed, otherwise, there is no way to take the 'first prince' throne of the Star League. It would remove the one thing that prevents a full conquest of the IS by the FS/FC.
The states all had versions of the Dragoons, though not all were up to speed so to speak. The Crusius lancers, the Sword of Light and such comes to mind. The big problem of having so many elite soldiers in one unit means pulling them from other units. Which in turns drops those units in skills. The treat of say the Sword of Light, drops when there isn't the threat factor of them being an 'elite' unit. Not that they were all even regular status for the soldiers in them.
Both the FS and the DC should have battled to gain a strategic advantage – establishing bases to strike at the rear of their enemy’s border.
If this was true, then it would have been done in earlier wars. For either side to invade, it would mean taking troops from other areas, which causes issues there.
From my view of the copies of the Dragoons, they tend to be merc units. The story plots seem to have local leaders get jealous and try to absorb them into personal units. So they break with the home nations and become mercs.
And one more point. Both nations have forces on the border of the OA. It may be a surprise, but this is part of why you can't just pull troops from areas on a whim.
And deep raids?
If the nations had the jumpships to perform strikes like this, they would have done it more often then they did. Non nukes being dropped on the heavy industrial worlds or even mech/spec ops raids, to remove that ability would have been done. I know you think the IS had so many, that this would have been a no brainer. Alas, the entire setting very much suggests they didn't really have enough to cover the worlds they had well, much less excess.
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Requiem
11/17/19 07:00 PM
1.158.182.82
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What is the aim of the game? To become the First Lord … thus the FC ARE just fulfilling the aim of the game ….
So …. Sorry, no, if the FC entered into this attack strategy the DC would not fall they would just have to retreat and give up one third to one half of the DC - then re-establish a new front line (with a reduced supply lines). Thus the DC are now in the same boat the CC are in.
Establishing elite units from the ranks have always been established, so what’s the issue? Pulling elite soldiers will NOT reduce the overall experience of the unit … a veteran unit will always be a veteran unit despite taking a couple of the more elite people / units.
QUOTE: If this was true, then it would have been done in earlier wars.
This is a correct statement …. and yet the game’s developers are not that great when it comes to tactics / strategy …. So we the game’s players are once again left to pick up the pieces and correct any shortcomings the developers missed.
So, as an Alt Universe your home group could have this occur sooner, in either the First or the Second Succession Wars, or leave it for the war of 3039, the choice is again yours to make.
Quote: For either side to invade, it would mean taking troops from other areas, which causes issues there.
Considering the number of units both the FC and the DC have – it would only be a problem for the DC – which is the point of utilizing this plan!
Where is it written the DC and the FC have forces along the OA border? Sorry I have yet to read this anywhere. And yes I can establish new elite units and have them assigned to on a “whim”.
QUOTE: And deep raids?
Then what about the Steiner’s deep raid into the FWL and what about The Big MAC’s deep raid into the FS? And what about in the future when the new Star League went to Huntress – sorry but I cannot see this point winning out. There are examples of these occurring in the past so I cannot see why not the FC could do this in the future?
Plus the overall game’s strategy, in my opinion, seems like it would be fun to run for gamer's who enjoy the Alt Universe over that of the Canon’s ill conceived and executed history.
It just makes sense that if Davion does proceed with the 3039 war he would have had something up his sleeve to cause maximum discomfort for the DC – and again, in my opinion, this should have been it!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/18/19 12:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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8th Sword of Light- Delacruz
Ryuken-san- Niles
Bryceland DMM- Bryceland
11th Avalon Hussars- Kesai IV
All four are in the 20 year update in the area of the OA, according to the map in the book. As units tend to be spread out among planets in their general area, that means some WILL BE on the border of the OA. It was be completely stupid not to have some forces based there. The Coordinated Weakness policy comes to mind. Which is why moving troops to other areas isn't as easy as it sounds. You need to have some troops almost everywhere, or risk having revolts and work stoppages. Even the FC has them.
Then what about the Steiner’s deep raid into the FWL and what about The Big MAC’s deep raid into the FS? And what about in the future when the new Star League went to Huntress – sorry but I cannot see this point winning out. There are examples of these occurring in the past so I cannot see why not the FC could do this in the future?
And how many of the deep raids don't make it more then 2 jumps in? Oh wait. They only really talk about the few that succeeded. How many troops were left in enemy territory that were part of a failed raid? If it was soooo easy, then Defiance would have been destroyed in the first war, much less still running in the fourth. Luthien itself is supposed to be a major manufacturing planet in the DC. So wiping that out should decapitate the DC. Government and manufacturing... In the first war, Galaxy and a few other jumpship makers would have ceased to exist as well.
So …. Sorry, no, if the FC entered into this attack strategy the DC would not fall they would just have to retreat and give up one third to one half of the DC - then re-establish a new front line (with a reduced supply lines). Thus the DC are now in the same boat the CC are in.
You missed the point with this. Giving up lands only saves them for a short time. The FC would NOT allow the DC to survive for any length of time.
And the FC did have something up their sleeves. Comstar had a bigger set of aces up theirs to save the DC.
So again. Stop trying to follow Canon with the alt. It doesn't work. You create even more issues trying to 'fix' the flaws by leaving most of the crap in there, and only adding to it. The Alt timeline was supposed to remove the CC from the game. Not hit the DC and hobble all sides so the clans could invade easily. So this is basically moot.
What is the aim of the game? To become the First Lord … thus the FC ARE just fulfilling the aim of the game ….
This is only the story line. The real aim of the game is to keep making money.
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Requiem
11/18/19 04:19 AM
1.158.182.82
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Delacruz, Niles, Bryceland and Kesai IV are all on the border, so how many units are near Dneiper, Antallos (Port Krin), Milligan’s World or Prinis Prime?
Big difference in location …. and as such it is highly unlikely any of these DCMS forces would be stationed that high on the OA border.
Yes you do need forces on every world – this is why you have planetary garrisons – and yet how many of these garrisons have armored units or Mechs even? Next to none ….
QUOTE: How many troops were left in enemy territory that were part of a failed raid? If it was soooo easy, then Defiance would have been destroyed in the first war, much less still running in the fourth
Hesperus II …. and yet how many raids by the DCMS have been staged against this Steiner facility …. Fourteen (14) by 3039, so if it was such a waste of time why keep striking at it?
Sorry but this, to me, is the most rational means of causing the maximum amount of destruction to the DCMS during the 3039 war.
So yes the DCMS are forced to retreat after a number of years of war – or risk total destruction
As for ComStar – resupplying the DCMS with Mechs from their stockpile during the war would never be allowed – the risk of being caught by the FCMS would be too great …. What would the Steiner’s and Davion’s demands be of Comstar if they were caught? (Comstar are nothing if not practical in their political maneuvering)
Sorry but Comstar has already paid for the establishment of the FRR – their only hope now is to cut the DCMS free and move on to their final trump card the FWL and their former Acolyte now the Captain General of the FWL.
The only other Comstar possibility is to supply the DCMS and the CCMS with blueprint technology that will enable them to manufacture ER, Pulse, Gause Rifles ECMS, Beagle Probes etc before the FC is able to manufacture them – thus providing their remaining small forces with a weapons advantage above that of their rival FC forces.
However, if they did this, would it not go against the holy tenants of Blake? Yes ….
QUOTE: So again. Stop trying to follow Canon with the alt. It doesn't work. You create even more issues trying to 'fix' the flaws by leaving most of the crap in there, and only adding to it. The Alt timeline was supposed to remove the CC from the game. Not hit the DC and hobble all sides so the clans could invade easily. So this is basically moot.
Sorry, but I disagree people should be given the choice of their games scenario – as for the Clans – introduce advance weapons systems as well as the idea of the Omni mech technology before the Clans even arrive – as well as PT craft with Naval weapons and the idea of Big Wings – once you start an attrition warfare the Clans will not survive for long – Sibko reinforcement as well as assassinations via sniper and IEDs will ensure the Clans loose hard (despite the badly written Cannon suggests) – they have no idea as to how to fight a protracted insurgency utilizing such tactics against them.
What would happen if you take out all their workers (food / water poison) how will the warrior caste even fix their own vehicles as is this not beneath them?
QUOTE: This is only the story line. The real aim of the game is to keep making money.
How is that working out … with the problems that occurred in Germany …. How many books have been printed recently regarding post 3150 to complete the HPG failure and the Fortress / Clan expansion series …. Next to none in the last two years!, …. The only way to keep the game going is for gamers to write their own game!
Thus people should be put forward their ideas so the community can make a choice as to where they want their story to go.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/18/19 12:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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Flaw in the 14 raids on Hesperus II. Not all were DC. A couple came from the FWL. Different directions, so adds different issues into it. It still comes down to 14 raids on the world made it there, and failed.
To hit Luthien or New Avalon, it would be a couple of months in transit alone. There would be no help if anything goes wrong.
As for troops on the borders, I don't have a full listing of what is where. But to be honest, if the FS were looking to take out a periphery realm, the TC would be more likely. The OA is more of a neutral buffer with the DC, where the TC is active in hitting the FS. Also, I would assume there are troops from both nations in the OA, even if it is just to help defend against pirates. Simple patrols to help calm fears the larger nations might have. And I would believe they both have used OA space to 'raid' each other.
The timing of Comstar resupplying the DC came before the war did, not during. It was the extra units that were already in training that helped stop the invasion.
The FWL would not be able to stop the FC if the DC fell. Thought I do find Comstars inability to find the agents from the FS/FC that have been so successful in keeping the nations in the FWL hostile to the Captain-General. It almost makes you wonder if Comstar wasn't assisting them in order to force the FWL to at least become friendlier.
From the sounds of it, once the Jihad happened, the story has not recovered from it. The clans splintering, but yet able to push the IS around still points out to holes that should not exist. Yes. You can buy limited supplies from the Diamond Sharks. But the IS should be building the weapons, especially heat sinks, themselves. Endosteel and Ferrous Armor being the next to come to mind. Each realm would have their favorites among the other weapons, and if following in the older lines, some realms would be hard up for specific weapons, such as the FWLs lack of PPCs, should extend into the ERPPC.
What would happen if you take out all their workers (food / water poison) how will the warrior caste even fix their own vehicles as is this not beneath them?
The clans will always have techs. Every sibco would produce some. And with them being in the IS, it provides more chances. Now poisoning water is a war crime of the worse nature. Getting caught doing that to even the clans should basically force all the players into removing at least the leaders of that nation, to full destruction of it. Once the clans found out about it, they would call it dezgra and not worry about who won the bid to get into the IS, but open it up to all clans. And that isn't saying the IS states wouldn't help them in this.
Granted the DC got away with it during the fourth war on Northwind if I remember right. Then the CC got away with it in the St. Ives war. It is a bad thing to continue with the storylines. Sadly enough, the nuke bombardments may well be the way the story will continue...
And as I said it before. The canon story line isn't anywhere near perfect, arguing they are completely wrong as their numbers aren't printed, even after years of being worked on, doesn't mean they are wrong in their ideas. It is their game after all.
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Requiem
11/18/19 05:56 PM
1.158.182.82
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QUOTE: To hit Luthien or New Avalon, it would be a couple of months in transit alone. There would be no help if anything goes wrong.
Correct.
However, this would not diminish the fun of raiding their Capitol – The FS did with the CC so why not the DC? Have you ever considered raiding your enemies’ capitol world – I believe it would be a fun game win or loose.
Just remember the Clan’s were a vast deep strike, and when the game developers provided them with their favoritism they were able to win – and yet they should have been kicked out with attrition warfare!
Consider the location of the TC – there is nothing there except the ‘Mech and aerospace manufactories – thus they have no strategic value whatsoever.
However the OA provides a road right into the heart of the DC – thus they are of great strategic value for the FC when you use a direct attack around Terra as a feint for the main attack, as a dagger in the back coming from the top of the OA (hidden FC bases). The question then becomes how quick can the DC reorganize their forces without collapsing.
Yes, I agree both FS and DC would use the OA as staging bases for small scale raids over the years but neither the FS or the DC have used the OA as a main staging area for a massive invasion – if this did happen then both the FS and the DC would have invaded in force – OA would have been conquered outright and a formal border would have been established.
Comstar – sorry I disagree in that they continued to reinforce the DC during the war – it was all completed prior to the war – the price for setting the FRR free – and all new units required time to train to become effective units – otherwise the FC troops would have just run right over them despite them having Star League era ‘Mechs – incompetence has no place on the battlefield!
FWL with ComStars (the complete ComGuard Forces? OR/– now WOB forces as they split from ComStar to assist the FWL?) help (plus the remains of the DC and the CC) – yes they could hurt the FC who knows how far they could go and what could happen.
For those who hate the FC – this could fracture the FC into many small realms (the war keeps going);
A resurgence in the CC and the DC (with help from ComStar);
For those on the side of the FC – the final destruction of the CC, DC and FWL – the beginning of the new FC Star league;
During the War the Clans invade – what next does the 5th Succession War be put on hold so that the IS can battle the Clans? Or does the FC have to continue a war on many fronts plus the Clans?
There are many possible scenarios for each home game to consider a possibility for them to fight in.
The game developers missed some great scenarios in their fear of the FC becoming the new First Realm of the new Star League.
The game was terminally injured with the jihad and all stories thereafter – look at the WOB Mechs and the Mechs of all the states thereafter – all of the states should have produced their own WOB variants (where are they? And what about the transformable fighters where did that go – and what about the drones where did they disappear to?)
QUOTE: The clans will always have techs.
And yet it will take how many months (six plus?) to get them into the IS – how much damage could the IS do to the Clans in that time period if they have a shortage of techs?
The Clans have no knowledge of fighting an insurgent force – if the planet becomes hostile they will all die shortly thereafter – if they use orbital bombardment to quell the civilians / declare dezgra we move straight into Jihad tactics of using nukes etc – The Clans do not have enough elementals or security forces to hold onto their bases in the event of an insurgency revolt.
Plus they do not have enough troops – Sibko numbers and Jumpship numbers can in no way see the clans involved in a protracted war based upon attrition warfare.
There must be numbers / tonnage etc as to supply - there also needs to supply routes for all the states including the Clans – the lack of this knowledge is another hole in the game as all re-supply routes are viable targets.
QUOTE: It is their game after all.
I strongly disagree with this ….. it is OUR game after all.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/18/19 10:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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However, this would not diminish the fun of raiding their Capitol – The FS did with the CC so why not the DC? Have you ever considered raiding your enemies’ capitol world – I believe it would be a fun game win or loose.
This is where the idea of story verse gameplay go separate ways.
Gameplay is easy to do anything you want, as you just make up forces and go at it. When, as you put it, the story has huge logic holes in it, this very sort of scenario shows thru.
The logistics as well as trying to get the troops to give their lives for an ill fated mission such as this, is how the logic fail happens.
Just remember the Clan’s were a vast deep strike, and when the game developers provided them with their favoritism they were able to win – and yet they should have been kicked out with attrition warfare!
Another numbers game. Spending troops just to do so is beyond wasteful for a commander. After a while, the troops stop serving and find other ways to make a living. Knowing you will be sent out to your deaths on a whim tends to do that.
Also, the lack of believing the IS didn't have the resources for that style of combat shows thru here.
And until Comstar finally changed sides, it would fail miserably. Putting 10 RCTs on a world would only invoke a clan to drop more troops then normal on it. But troops wasn't the main thing stopping the massed army moves. It was a lack of jumpships. But again. Mixing canon and alt causes a major problem with understanding the canon story line.
Consider the location of the TC – there is nothing there except the ‘Mech and aerospace manufactories – thus they have no strategic value whatsoever.
You seem to forget a MAJOR tactical issue with the TC. Removing the thorn from your backside, allows you to move more troops out of the area, as well as why you suggested removing the CC. Mech factories, as well as dropship and jumpship building. It gives you more resources, as well as cuts into the raids that pull your forces from other borders. And to suggest those are not worth the effort, suggests the exact opposite of what you have stated before.
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ghostrider
11/18/19 11:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Now hitting the OA shows a lack of understanding the very thing you suggested about fighting the clans. The populace would use the assassinations and such without a second thought to either invader. Resistance would tie down more then a few RCTs worth of troops, making it almost impossible to use it as a staging area to raid or attack the combine. But then the perfect scenario would require them to just sit back and hail the FS/FC as heroes.
Ok. What remains of the CC and DC would you be using? Both would cease to exist, with the exception of some rebel units. The FWL can NOT take on the FC alone. The DC's fall would result in the end of the game. Or are you changing from the alt to canon and back again on a whim?
And yet it will take how many months (six plus?) to get them into the IS – how much damage could the IS do to the Clans in that time period if they have a shortage of techs?
And how many people in the IS would jump at the chance to show up those that have insulted them, by siding with the clans? Promises of running a world would very well cause more then a few to lean on others to fix the clans machines. Some in the IS actually welcome the clans. For some, they are far better then the IS born leaders. The IS was not united to remove the clans. Even moreso when they found out the clans were not complete homicidal maniacs.
I strongly disagree with this ….. it is OUR game after all.
So how much have you made on the game?
Did ANY of your ideas get used or even suggested they would be looked at?
As said before. One critic does not have that much influence on how games turn out. Thousands to millions sometimes don't. The owners can afford to lose a few dozen people, as there are others that will take their places. The games biggest issue is other games coming out the compete with them, such as warhammer and even video games. People would rather play borderlands or Fallout then spend time playing a board game. Even Megamech seems to be preffered over sitting around a table, play the board game.
A side note here. It is far more economical to sell the rules and TRO's online, then it is to print them up, ship them out, and hope game stores or even book shops will carry them.
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Requiem
11/19/19 05:23 AM
1.158.182.82
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Sorry ghostrider but where are the logic holes?
This is more than game play it is a legitimate strategy that could be used by the Fox at this stage … as for logistics they can meet in deep space between worlds anywhere …. So not a problem ….
Why do you consider an attack of the DC Capitol as ill fated? – The DC are engaged in a massive war along the border … there are numerous forces raiding throughout the internal planets of the DC – the DCMS have dispatched many units to hunt them down – how many units are now on their capitol – two and the Dragons Claws? It would not be more than three – so how would they go if four elite FC RCTs arrived at a pirate point and sped toward the capitol and their Mech works?
QUOTE: Also, the lack of believing the IS didn't have the resources for that style of combat shows thru here.
Huntress?
Again with the lack of jumpships ….. where is this cannon fact written? Nowhere! …. It is only an assumption that is quite past it’s use by date.
Question: 3039 – how is TC a thorn in the back of the FC? Their entire policy as at 3039 is defense in depth – there is no evidence they inflicted any real damage to the FC.
I agree that the 3039 War should have been the CC as yes it does give the FC more resources to attack the DC in the future – but if the DC were chosen – this is how I would inflict the most hurt on the DC.
Question: Why would the OA populace rise up against FC forces if they are only located on hidden bases in very remote worlds – Even pirates know to stay away from RCT Military bases – so, who has the military might to go after these forces? Wouldn’t it be more lucrative (and safer) to sell the information to a DC spy?
Sorry but in this case I cannot see why a population would protest if the base was not permanent and they did not interfere with the local population.
If the battle of 3039 went ahead – and CC was not attacked – both the CC and the DC still have a sizeable Mech Army Regiment between the two of them
As for the FWL – they will not be attacking alone the WOB / ComGuards (depending on how your story progresses) will be with them / pluss they will also have access to more advanced weapon systems that that of the FC to assist them in battle against the FC.
Where is it written anywhere that the Clans would accept the help of IS barbarians – except for the most basic of work? The Clan’s own ego would never allow IS people working on their Mechs ….. remember they are into culture supremacy.
Quote: I strongly disagree with this ….. it is OUR game after all.
So how much have you made on the game?
Ans: Thousands of hours of fun! … monetary worth is not the only way you can value things.
Quote: Did ANY of your ideas get used or even suggested they would be looked at?
Yes …. Have a look at the Forum regarding making House Units that hunt down Star League Artifacts.
Quote: It is far more economical to sell the rules and TRO's online, then it is to print them up, ship them out, and hope game stores or even book shops will carry them.
Question – how is the advertising going to find new people to play the game? …. Word of mouth is not working and those that play the video game, how many also want to play the board game?
Sorry but the current management strategy for keeping the game going is not working.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/19/19 12:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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It would not be more than three – so how would they go if four elite FC RCTs arrived at a pirate point and sped toward the capitol and their Mech works?
No more then three? First off, fighting anything they run into, in order to make sure the mission remains quiet isn't counted in here. Then the militia and other units that could very well be on world as they are being moved around or sent for repairs.
Now the counter question. Four Elite RCTs being used. Which ones? You risk completely losing them and all their equipment on a gamble like this. I will say it could well be a good risk, if done right. But the four elite RCTs would be better on the front lines, removing the enemy's units. Maybe as the war started to stagnate, it might be something. But still don't see risking the lives of your best units on this.
Read the actual background story of the game. Every successor state is lacking in jumpships. The just over 1000 jumpships used in the 4th war on the Davion side was destroying the economy. That was the initial number. It wouldn't be a bad bet to think they had to conscript even more towards the war effort. You would think they should have had enough to keep the economy going and still get the job done. Steiner then Marik should have more. Yet each one of them runs into issues of having to conscript ships more then often. When Katherine pulled the LA out of the FC, Victor could not even attempt to hit her, as a good chunk of the FS jumpships were in LA space. Then the issue of dropships looking for a jumpship to take them to the next system is common in stories. If there were alot of jumpships, this would not be happening for the most part. I will grant that some systems would be more difficult as not many ships would be heading there, but for the most part, normal routes would.
Again with the lack of jumpships ….. where is this cannon fact written? Nowhere! …. It is only an assumption that is quite past it’s use by date.
Uh... Maybe Comstar put in some to cover the lack of the states not having enough. And this is for all the states, not just one. So each would be sending from their own set up. With the FC and DC being on a friendly cease fire situation, they put in a few more then they would, as they were not on such a high alert.
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ghostrider
11/19/19 01:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Question: Why would the OA populace rise up against FC forces if they are only located on hidden bases in very remote worlds – Even pirates know to stay away from RCT Military bases – so, who has the military might to go after these forces? Wouldn’t it be more lucrative (and safer) to sell the information to a DC spy?
This changes the initial statement. The initial thing was invade the OA, not create hidden bases.
Now the second part. Safer to sell the information to the DC? Really? So when the FC found out they were doing so, you think it would be safe for them to do so? The history of the OA suggests they wanted nothing to do with the DC, but had to figure some way to avoid them invading. So they played up the FS side to neutralize the threat. Finding out the OA sold their information would result in that balance being destroyed. The FS could just allow information to leak that the OA was not being 'protected' by the FS, leaving the DC to invade. Then the FS could invade, suggesting it had to take the worlds to avoid the DC from getting them. In the end, it would spell the downfall of the OA.
As for not caring about secret bases in their area... Really. You would allow a foreign government to build bases in your area, knowing full well, that if the enemy on the opposite side found out about them, it would attack? Logic fail? And how are you so sure the owner would not use them to take your worlds? The OA might have prefferred closer ties to the FS, it still didn't trust them not to invade, or at least annex or take as a 'protectorate' some worlds.
As for the FWL – they will not be attacking alone the WOB / ComGuards (depending on how your story progresses) will be with them / pluss they will also have access to more advanced weapon systems that that of the FC to assist them in battle against the FC.
What happened to your numbers game here? The FC would have more units then all of them combined. The advanced weapons only do so much, though the warships comstar has is a big factory. Inderdiction as well as units scattered around the FC would cause havok. But that is saying that Comstar would even get involved. With the story the way it was, there could very well be a major schism, fracturing Comstar beyond WOB ties. It could well create a full civil war in it.
Where is it written anywhere that the Clans would accept the help of IS barbarians – except for the most basic of work? The Clan’s own ego would never allow IS people working on their Mechs ….. remember they are into culture supremacy.
What do bondsmen do when they are not allowed to pilot machines? Then the issue of food. Send the IS workers into the fields to free up the clan civillians to do the maintenance and repair work.
Question – how is the advertising going to find new people to play the game? …. Word of mouth is not working and those that play the video game, how many also want to play the board game?
I said sell the stuff. Advertising is another story. The issue that I have seen is the whole rules as well as back ground story needs a full rework. The history of the innersphere and beyond has changed. The rules need better refinement and updating. D&D has done wonders doing this.
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Requiem
11/19/19 11:24 PM
1.158.182.82
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Four Elite RCTs in the interior of the DC
First, this is the assignment they were given – raid regional capitol worlds and any other world of importance – yes they will be attacked by militia and any other available forces. However, how many elite units will be in this area of space – none – they would all be on the front line or on the Capitol.
Yes they would take damage – but this is why you have re-supply ships (material and personnel).
Yes, this is a risk – but it is a calculated risk that could decimate the DCMS once and for all – I believe this risk is worth it. Consider D-day – how big a risk was this? To consider the FC’s military less willing to take such a risk demonstrates the state is on a slow decline to ruin.
Jumpships
Yes there is a lack of Jump-ships all round – however how many CC were captured during the 4th Succession War and how many have been constructed since – more than enough to service four new RCTs plus their re-supply ships.
I am of the opinion there should be enough for the FC to start and finish the war of 3039 in the DC.
Question – how long does this lack of Jumpships last – it appears post Jihad there is no longer a lack of Jumpships – not for the Clans not for anyone.
The writing shifts across the board so this no longer becomes an issue for the game.
Plus – to fix the Problem with the Clans – Inner Sphere house units should be beginning to produce warships circa 3039, or at the very least pocket warships – otherwise the game moves once more into the idiotic again with the Clans still being the only holders of warships.
By allowing the Clans as the single holder of warships this will inevitably lead to a Jihad situation during the Clan invasion – Nukes, Chemical, Biological etc – these MUST be kept out of the game – the only way to do so is to provide House units with their own fleets - thus fleet battles can take place.
Invasion of the OA
This can be one world or all their worlds! This is dependent upon how the FC and the DC react to the use of an OA planet by the FC as a staging ground for the invasion and the availability of surpluss forces from the front line.
Safer, which is it?
Attack an Elite FC RCT Base or selling information to a DC spy – your choice?
Foreign Bases
Who would be idiotic enough to tell the OA leadership there are multiple hidden Elite FC RCT bases being constructed on their worlds adjacent to the DC border?
WOB / ComGuard
First, the Captain General was once an acolyte of ComStar.
If ComStar believed their only hope against the rampaging FC was to assist the FWL would they do so?
Would the ‘Master’ appear earlier – ComStar Fractures – ROB forms and aligns itself with the FWL
Both are interesting scenarios that could be considered going forward (It is an Alt. Universe Scenario after all)
Numbers Game (approx 3049)
FC – bare minimum – 250-275 RCTs
ComGuard / WOB – say 60 RCTs
FWL – say 120 RCTs
CC and DC – between them 70-80 RCTs
Plus the ComGuard / WOB / FWL / CC and DC have all been outfitted with advanced weapon tech from ComStar / WOB
Story
So at this stage the Universe is fighting what could be the final succession war!
Clan Civilians
Since when did any of the other clans bring their farmers to the IS – that is except the Bears who brought everyone.
Utilizing IS people for anything military – they must prove their loyalty to the Clans first!
Advertising
Sorry but Advertising is necessary to grow the business – without it – free-fall and the ground is approaching fast.
QUOTE: The issue that I have seen is the whole rules as well as back ground story needs a full rework.
What do you want to change to the back-story?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/20/19 02:54 AM
66.74.60.165
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D Day. Landing away from the main capital in Germany, with the belief it was going to allow them to get forces on the beach without heavy losses, such as those that would have happened if they had landed anywhere in Germany. Big difference.
Jumpships... If you have the original jumpships and dropships, it states on page 15, that the estimates of the number of jumpships available to the IS was around 2000. Earlier on that page it said the current production barely kept up with losses. I know this number is off, as that would mean a majority of trading and even supplies to worlds wouldn't happen. But you wanted the number in print. I will state the big whole in the numbers comes from the 4th war. Davion used like half that number to invade the CC.
The writing shifts across the board so this no longer becomes an issue for the game.
This statement I agree with. They seem to forget their own issues, but then they do the impossible a few times with things that are supposed to be against the rules. Pulling in the center torso in order to give the arms a greater firing arc comes to mind.
Plus – to fix the Problem with the Clans – Inner Sphere house units should be beginning to produce warships circa 3039, or at the very least pocket warships
Part of this they got around by having Comstar be the engine producer and it stalled sending out engines. Pocket warships were basically nerf and kept from being done until the writers figured out that warships would destroy almost anything in a system without the pocket warships. They nerfing comes from the inability to use energy capital weapons, sticking them with missiles. Limited ammo there.
Who would be idiotic enough to tell the OA leadership there are multiple hidden Elite FC RCT bases
The OA's Intel. It is interesting that the IS would know exactly where the clans are at during their war, according to the alt, yet the OA and others wouldn't know of any secret bases being built. Not a single one? I can see a few that might escape being seen, as being done in dead systems. But at least one would be found, and then others searched for. But then this doesn't support the Alt.
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ghostrider
11/20/19 03:02 AM
66.74.60.165
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Since when did any of the other clans bring their farmers to the IS – that is except the Bears who brought everyone.
Actually, a few did. Most never saw them until after the war. The clans would shifted some of their techs to do the dirty farm work, if they couldn't get the locals to do so. Then again confiscation of food is possible. But then I have lessened the fact that most of the clans brought their food with them, as IS food was tainted.
The canon story has so many issues, it isn't even funny.
The alt has a few things that need some angles covered.
And again, numbers don't make it so. Unless you plan to strip alot of worlds of their defenders, and just grind the enemy down, you don't have anywhere near that number of forces to use. Being the defender, the DC did have an advantage with moving some around.
Now one factor that would interfer with such a plan. Comstar learning of the raid. That might not be until they are a jump or two away from Luthien, but gathering intel during the shadow war being fought with them being an issue. And the black boxes would not be able to get around that. Not even sure if they would have been used by spies, as the tech could not fall into DC hands. Which it did during the counter attacks.
But I would like to know why you think there would not be any Elite units near Luthien? They normally have at least one if not more. Even with the canon invasion, they did not have all the elite units on the border. The ghost regiments seemed to do most of the dirty counter attack work on Combine worlds.
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Requiem
11/20/19 05:01 AM
1.158.182.82
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Jumpships
The entire IS Jumpship fleet is 2,000! Sorry even if this is written down there is no way this can be considered factual. Given the limited number of Drop-ships per Jump-ship and the limited number of military equipment you can put in each Drop-Ship with a total of 2,000 the battles would become very small and very strategically located – many worlds that are not self sufficient will have to be evacuated over time as there is no way each state could continue feeding them given the limited number of ships available.
Warships
The canon rules concerning the creation of warships / pocket warships / Drop-ships equipped with Naval Weapons (such as my PT Varient) and only Comstar can build the engines is a complete load of rot. This severely impacts upon the future of the game and must be re-written!
So for an Alt Universe I would strongly suggest allowing Houses to begin warship constructing circa 3039 – with the ability to build the entirety of the ship. Otherwise the game once more degrades into the realms of stupidity.
Hidden Bases in the OA
Politics – even if the OA discovered a FC / DC hidden base – there is no way they would act of the information – they would turn a blind eye to the whole mess and hope it disappears.
See no evil- talk no evil – hear no evil.
Clan Farmers
Where is it written that the Clanners brought in farmers?
Numbers
20 year update
Page 40 DC 99 regiments (including 5 Ghost Regiments); and
Page 19 FC 268 regiments, 1 battalion
Even if the FC used only half their number to attack the DC they would have 35 more RCTs than that of the DC. So, no, the DC did not have an advantage – with 35 more Regiments they should have been able to inflict more damage than was written.
This also shows they could have put even more regiments into the rear than that of the initial 4 I was suggesting – how about 20-30 regiments? (and given they were able to do it in the 4th succession war they should still be able to do this circa 3039 as only half the army is on the move not the entirety of the army)
How would ComStar come to know about the raid? Even if Black Boxes are being used you need to be on the wavelength and then understand the cipher key to read it – so unless there was something else the FC can inflict severe damage with 20-30 Regiments attacking the internal worlds of the DC.
This just goes to show how the game developers once again took sides rather than conducting an actual account of the war.
Luthien – Elite Units
There would be Elite Units ON Luthien, but near the world? Zip – when there is a war battling throughout the border – no I doubt they would keep a sizeable strategic reserve throughout the interior of the DC – the DC would not be able to fight off the DC if they limit their forces to a reduced number.
Ghost Regiments
This is another error of the game developers – why would anyone allow yakuza to pilot Star league era Mechs? This again shows how limited the game developers understanding of Japanese culture. In reality these should have been given to the sword of light and finally the yakuza should have been given all the hand me downs – they are not even regular military – they haven’t even gone through basic mech training, so how good should they have been on the battlefield? Once again stretching reality for the benefit of the DC?
Providing them to the Yakuza would be seen as a loss of face (and a slap in the face by Thomas) - it is surprising they didn't assassinate him for this act!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/20/19 12:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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Jumpships
As I stated, it is printed, though the invasion of the CC would have used half of those ships. This is a major logic fail, but it was there to show the lack of ships.
In the beginning of the IS to start making warships, Comstar was the only one that could make the engines. As time went by, the other states should have been able to do so themselves. The FOX waited for the engines, and would have been out far sooner, meaning other ships would have been out sooner, if they could have built the engines for warships. So earlier is very possible.
The OA would have diplomatically protested such bases. As for military actions? Not unless it was that dangerous of an area.
ANY free born could have been ordered to do the farming. Only after the clans started having issues with supplies, would this have been done. The time frame is the key to them bringing in dedicated farmers. It is written that at least the Bears brought them in, so the where is it written isn't correct.
Again. You do not send every last unit into a fight. You have lots of worlds to defend, and the FC did not know the DC had x amount of troops. That very fact was shown when the DC countered the initial push. The crap of the LC generals getting wiped out is a load of crap. Weekly meetings where they are all on the same world in the same building? Yeah. Right.
Also, you keep using hard data that would not be available. Information, mainly intel, was not dried and cut like the books say they are. Even Comstar didn't have exact numbers, and they were most likely to. Try playing some tactical games that you don't have exact numbers and locations for all units available.
Comstar only needed to follow a weak link to find out there was something up. Even a single agent in one of the units, such as a tech or even cook, would have been able to alert them to it. They may not have the plans, but simply putting their coms network on alert to look for any signs of ships would happen. And to use your own love of secret bases, it would be more then possible to put in remote satilites in systems that would be used for just such a movement, if not an 'observation' post.
Actually, all of the yakuza did get some training before the war. A few were said to have been ex military as well, but were forced out because of reasons, such as politics. The issue is not being able to adapt to new ideas, as the Japanese culture would never survive in the initial form that far into the future. And as they state in the story line, the DC knew it had to do something extreme, as it was life or death.
The loss of face isn't as bad as you want to suggest. Takashi approved of letting Thomas do this, so he would have been seen as supporting this, even though he was against it. And when the coordinator says the new units are made up of warriors that didn't make the main stream military, who is going to really say otherwise?
We know it would happen, but those that do, would not say in public.
One more thing. Garrisons are not listed under the troops that states have. That does change alot of how many forces you find. And not all are like the solamha troops of the clans. Local defenses and defenders can change the outcome of a war. Not taking a world could very well change the future plans.
Edited by ghostrider (11/20/19 12:37 PM)
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Requiem
11/20/19 07:58 PM
1.158.182.82
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Quote: As I stated, it is printed, though the invasion of the CC would have used half of those ships. This is a major logic fail, but it was there to show the lack of ships.
Lack of Ships?
During the 4th Succession War – when the entirety of the FC military was fighting it was clearly shown that yes there was a shortage of ships
However during the 4th Succession War how many CC became part of the FC due to conquering half of this realm – for example how many remained with Tikonov Republic? Which was then subsequently annexed by the FC.
Then during the war of 3039 when I am suggesting we are using only half of the military, therefore only half of the Jumpships required, how can there be a shortage? Half the fleet is still in use as per normal.
Thus there cannot be a shortage during the war of 3039!
Warship Engines
Comstar and the FC have just gone through a secret war and yet Comstar is willing to provide the FC with engines so shortly thereafter – sorry no this is not believable!
The only was forward is if each state re-discovers how to build them from the get go – the cannon history, as it relates to warship engines, is another huge plot hole that cannot be believed, therefore it must be scrapped for something more believable,
So yes I agree earlier must become a possibility.
OA – FC Bases
Protested the establishment of bases? – doubtful, as gratuities (bribes) would have ensured no one would complain. Remember they live in the Periphery - huge wealth gap.
Clan Farmers
Yes, I agree the Bears have farmers – yet all the others, sorry no I cannot believe they did bring them in. Sooner or later stock shortages would have forced all the Clans to convert to IS food – especially when they become abjured from the home-worlds. This is another huge plot hole there is no way the Clans can be said to have a sizeable population to conquer and establish the realms they did unless they received assistance from IS civilians – and I cannot see how the majority would convert to clan ways – especially when they are told they must become a stratified society and give up their children as they do on the Clan Home worlds – this is completely unbelievable. Again another massive plot hole!
QUOTE: Again. You do not send every last unit into a fight.
War of 3039 – I am only using Half of the Army!
Yes I agree in war you do not have all the information as where all the units are – however, I would say it is plausible they would have the majority of the units locations.
So yes the Ghost units are wild Cards on the game board – however once the initial shock of new mech designs are overcome reinforcements will be sent to overcome these forces – thus the Ghost units would become a primary target for annihilation / capture – also what is the cover story for these new mechs? how many of the pilots know they are ComStar provided? If they do and are captured and interrogated how will the Fox retaliate against them? Another huge plot hole that was never explained!
Yes I agree there would be observation posts – however in that remote location in the rear of the DC? I agree yes there is a remote possibility – it would come down to your home games moderator to determine yes / no.
Yakuza Training
Some training does not equal the years of training an academy cadet must go through before being posted to a DCMS unit. How many months of training Vs years of training – sorry but the Yakuza are green troops with little to no cohesion – many coming from different yakuza families and many at war with each other – sorry but no they cannot be considered to be anywhere near a reliable military unit.
Since when would the DCMS allow Yakuza as Mech pilots? They are considered to be the lowest of the low as to a true DCMS Samurai – sorry but I cannot see how this can be considered true, that is unless a samurai becomes a ronin and then becomes a bandit and then is brought into a yakuza family – So how many would go down this rabbit hole? Very few !
The Draconis Combine is a society based upon ancient Japan – Samurai and all.
Remember how horrified Takashi was when his son suggested this – sorry but the game developers really made a massive mistake here in allowing the Star League era Mechs be given to Yakuza. Again this shows a complete lack of understanding as to the concept of “face and honor”.
Quote: who is going to really say otherwise?
The entire high command of the DCMS as well as Takashi Kurita!
Sorry, but there is no way they would have been allowed access to Star League era mechs above that of the Sword of light!
Quote: Local defenses and defenders can change the outcome of a war. Not taking a world could very well change the future plans.
Agree – However, the local defenses must be significant / veteran-elite status – and they must also have access to many drop-ships and Jump-ships otherwise they are stranded! A good example is Archer’s Avengers! However how many units like this are in the DCMS? Not very many at all – un sanctioned units in the DCMS? Also Local defenses size – considering they only have 99 Regiments in total how many would be in the backwater of the DC? Not very many – so when the FC invade with 20 - 30 Regiments via the OA and with 100 regiments on the front lines (Border) how much damage could these forces do? My bet they could take a serious bite out the DC - the only way the DC could halt this is via the FC supply chain – that is if they could cut this, otherwise the DC is in for a world of hurt!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/20/19 11:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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First off, the entire FC military was NOT fighting during the 4th war.
Now. As for the jumpships, how many were lost? Taken by those running and kept going out of the war zone and maybe even the IS entirely? And with this, how many of them had to stay put, otherwise you destroy the entire region as supplies and such are stranded? Even non repairable breakdowns would have occurred. And this did NOT increase the number of jumpships, but just redistributed them around some.
Then during the war of 3039 when I am suggesting we are using only half of the military, therefore only half of the Jumpships required, how can there be a shortage? Half the fleet is still in use as per normal.
Thus there cannot be a shortage during the war of 3039!
Logic failure. But then it started with your first statement. Now to add to the reply to that, only have the military means only half the jumpships. If they had that many to begin with, then there would be no reason to have held back on the attacks. A big chunk of strategy of warfare in the IS was due to not having the jumpships to move the troops effectively. Otherwise, dropping 4 RCTs on all border worlds would have destroyed any enemy that had it happen to them. And, the FS would not have had issues with their economy, since they would not have needed to conscript the commercial jumpships in their area. Only a very few units had a permanent jumpship unit attached to them. The rest have to have them sent out. Part of why some of the assaults failed. Parts of the RCT or just plain regiments were still on their staging world.
Yes I agree in war you do not have all the information as where all the units are – however, I would say it is plausible they would have the majority of the units locations.
This is only partially correct. You would probably have the base operating worlds they are on, but not what lances are there, or where they are deployed to. This is part of why you have units moving around. If you did have all that information, then you would have won the first lord position ages ago. Slap a regiment on each company, and destroy the enemy. And that works both directions. It was the hits behind Davion lines that caused the 3039 war to end with far less good results.
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ghostrider
11/20/19 11:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Takashi approved of letting Thomas do this,
The entire high command of the DCMS as well as Takashi Kurita!
Did you miss the part where I said TAKASHI had approved of Thomas letting him do his experiment with the Yakuza?
And in the actual story, the main DCMS had issues with it, but followed the coordinator in using them.
He didn't like it at all, but once they proved their worth, he didn't disband them all.
The Draconis Combine is a society based upon ancient Japan – Samurai and all.
Based on, but not strictly adhered to. A point that seems to be missed.
Look at the first guns used by them. Those were looked down upon as only a coward would use such a weapon. And yet it started to become more used as it helped the shoguns win more with fewer losses.
Since when would the DCMS allow Yakuza as Mech pilots?
Now that statement is funny. The DCMS didn't have a choice as the coordinator said they were mech pilots. Unless you are going to suggest the underlings disobey the master. Strange how some points are forgotten when they get in the way.
The whole last paragraph of the post shows a lack of understanding much. The local defenders do NOT need to be elite. Regulars did a very good job on alot of worlds. And local forces are not included into the main numbers of units in the states. If it was, then all of them are horribly undermanned. The numbers are for the known units. And even with that, they are mech units listed, not armor or infantry units. They do have alot of them that are not part of the RCTs and such.
Now you would have to ignore the local lords as well as company units in order to suggest no unsanctioned units being onworld. The Yakuza had mech units, which is completely opposite of this statement.
From the 20 year update, there seemed to be 16 regiments that would be considered off the front lines. The entire Pehst district. Then there are units on the other districts as well that were away from the border. So more then a few might be backwater locations. Or main worlds near them.
For your facts, there were more then 5 ghost regiments. The 12th ghost was thought to be stationed on Midway with the 11th ghost. Page 41, in the Oshika prefecture.
Davion had no idea who or how many were available to the combine. If Hanse had called that bluff, then the DC would have been in a real world of hurt. But again. No intel. NO manual saying there is this many troops here or some such thing. But this point will not sink in. Again. Play a game that you don't know how many or what forces the enemy has or where.
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Requiem
11/21/19 01:29 AM
1.158.182.82
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FC Jumpships
So, if the entire of the FC was not fighting during the 4th Succession War – then what percentage did? – up to 50% or up to 75% how about up to 90% - whatever the amount is can we say it was more than the 50% I am suggesting for the War of 3039?
The following questions cannot be answered as there is no written evidence:-
• how many were lost?;
• Taken by those running and kept going out of the war zone and maybe even the IS entirely?;
• How many of them had to stay put, otherwise you destroy the entire region as supplies and such are stranded?; and
• Even non repairable breakdowns would have occurred.
There is no evidence whatsoever the total number of FC Jumships remained constant throughout the 4th Succession war - there is only reason and conjecture and hypothetical statements.
Can I ask then what percentage of each nation can be moved at any one time if they utilize their entire fleet? Yes I agree that there is supposed to be a shortage but how far do you take it?
QUOTE: Logic failure?
How can it be a logic failure when there is no evidence?
Example - FC have 268 regimens – however can only move 60 at any one go and what of the DC they have 99 regiments however they can only move 40 in one go – how far does this ridiculous statement go? There is no evidence whatsoever as to the number of ships each have. There is only an Overarching statement that there is a shortage of ships. Sorry but I am under the belief it is up to each game adjudicator to make this kind of decision otherwise this discussion will be going on forever and based upon no evidence.
For my story I am therefore going to make a unilateral decision, there is an adequate number to conduct the war and at the same time have an adequate amount to ensure commerce continues along – there may be delays but on the whole they would not be serious delays.
Remember – conscription of jumpships during a time of war is normal – thus Jumpships may not be permanently attached – but in times of war, yes they are!
FC Spies
This is only partially correct. You would probably have the base operating worlds they are on, but not what lances are there, or where they are deployed to.
Yes, you may not know where they are deployed throughout the world they are assigned to – but there is a good chance your spy would know the unit has been assigned to their world (Media – Nightly News letting the people know the unit arrived to take up a garrison post) – then one coded message via ComStar to a dead letter drop box and yes the FC now knows the unit is on the world.
Quote: If you did have all that information, then you would have won the first lord position ages ago. Slap a regiment on each company, and destroy the enemy. And that works both directions.
Yes this is true – however this also shows yet another huge plot hole in the game – or the strategy of the game now need to be – we need to attack every world – find out what is there, then call home and get reinforcements then continue on once you have destroyed the forces upon your assigned world.
QUOTE: It was the hits behind Davion lines that caused the 3039 war to end with far less good results.
And I am suggesting using three times this behind Combine lines at the same time – so how will this then pan out?
Quote: Takashi approved of letting Thomas do this,
And this shows yet again the game developers complete misunderstanding of Japanese military culture – he may have approved the creation of a Yakuza military units but there is no way they would have been given Star League Equipment over that of the Sword of Light Units – this would have been taken as a slap in the face – the sword of light units would have been humiliated – so yes the yakuza can form units, but they get the hand me downs that require a massive amount of work and supplies to get them up and running.
Quote: And in the actual story, the main DCMS had issues with it, but followed the coordinator in using them.
And yes I too believe the world is flat!
Quote: Based on, but not strictly adhered to. A point that seems to be missed.
Then which parts of ancient Japanese culture were left out? Especially when it comes to the Samurai philosophy.
Ok, how can you compare the Yakuza (a person in the lowest level of society) with that of a musket that was compared to a Samurai’s Sword?
And prior to the coordinator allowing Yakuza to pilots Mechs – how many were allowed to do so – None! This is a one off decision that could be very easily be reversed – also isn’t it funny that the Black Dragon Society never makes a comment about the formation of these units – which is very un-Kurita like. Why didn’t they have a go at assassinating Thomas for this like they have done so in the past?
Sorry no – this argument does now work!
Quote: And local forces are not included into the main numbers of units in the states.
If local forces are that great then why are they never included into the cannon books – like those documenting the 4th Succession War? Sorry but this again shows a plot hole in the game.
Remember with the 20 year update – these worlds are their Home worlds – they in no way represent where they are at any one period of time – especially if the FC launched a massive attack around Terra.
Would you not send a flash override suggesting many units to form reserve units closer to the action, just in case the FC are able to break through thus preventing an encirclement maneuver?
Ghost Regiments
Davion did not know of their existence until they were used during the 3039 war – so no their location pre 3039 would come as a complete surprise to any FC unit that run into them.
Spycraft
QUOE: Again. Play a game that you don't know how many or what forces the enemy has or where.
And yet again there should be a minim amount of knowledge available as the location on many of the enemies units – this is just common sense that you would keep track of units / vessels / key personnel’s location at all times.
Isn’t this why militaries have vast departments for this sole reason to create dossiers on people / units / planets / technology / jumpships etc.?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/21/19 02:29 AM
66.74.60.165
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The list of units that fought in the battles is in the NAIS books. You have been spouting off information in so many posts yet you couldn't find that information?
There is no evidence whatsoever the total number of FC Jumships remained constant throughout the 4th Succession war - there is only reason and conjecture and hypothetical statements.
Remember this next time you suggest the FC had a major increase in their war.
Sorry but I am under the belief it is up to each game adjudicator to make this kind of decision otherwise this discussion will be going on forever and based upon no evidence.
Then I guess saying canon is wrong should stop at this statement. They had their ideas on what the game would do, and you have yours. They have theirs in print. Don't like it? That's fine. But you are suggesting not ragging on someone else's idea, but yet the statement of canon being wrong is that very thing. I don't agree with everything canon has or is doing. But saying they need to change everything to fit my ideas isn't going to happen.
Yes this is true – however this also shows yet another huge plot hole in the game – or the strategy of the game now need to be – we need to attack every world – find out what is there, then call home and get reinforcements then continue on once you have destroyed the forces upon your assigned world.
You do know what a recon raid or recon in force is, right? It is that very thing. What forces are actually there? Were they moved, or just arrived? It could well be they were there for show and are now moving to raid your worlds. Intel is not exact or accurate a lot of the time. And with this, is seems government misinformation isn't used in your mind. Simply saying the 5th Sword of Light is taking over the garrison could me they have a few dropships land, and look like it is the unit. It may well be nothing more then supplies coming in. But relying on the news is very ignorant at best, down right dangerous or deadly at worst.
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ghostrider
11/21/19 02:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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Forgot a simple thing. The Sword of Light units would be under close observation, as best that could be. Simply having the new weapons show up, would tip off others something was up. The ghost regiments were done in almost pure secrecy. The Sword soldiers would be pissed off, but it would destroy any chance of using them to full effect.
Quote: And in the actual story, the main DCMS had issues with it, but followed the coordinator in using them.
And yes I too believe the world is flat!
So all the talk of ancient Japanese traditions was garbage? Your lord says you are to do something, and you think the soldiers would ignore it? Your definitions are starting to wander alot. It is not your station to question, just obey.
And saying it is the same thing as the ancient times, the samurai would never have left earth. Their lords would be shamed if they gave up their lands. And the combine would be destroyed before 3039. The soldiers would commit suicide every time they failed. But that is left out as well. Look at the Galtor Campaign. General Samson destroyed the chances of the Combine getting the loot from there, and yet the coordinator stopped him from killing himself. The general failed. Why would you stop it? To show the higher level officers can commit treason and get away with it?
also isn’t it funny that the Black Dragon Society never makes a comment about the formation of these units
Maybe because they have mech units as well, and bringing attention to that would show them as doing the same? Or they don't want to out a possible ally when it comes time to taking out the coordinator? There are more reasons why they might avoid it.
If local forces are that great then why are they never included into the cannon books
There are some that went on to greater things. Such as Archers Avengers. More then a few others became famous.
And yet again there should be a minim amount of knowledge available as the location on many of the enemies units – this is just common sense that you would keep track of units / vessels / key personnel’s location at all times.
The issue is suggesting they have up to the minute information on everything and anything. If the local government thinks there is a spy trying to send out information, they shut down the communications off world. And no. They will not have a jumpship in system to receive calls on a whim. If they did, the lack of jumpships may well be because of this very idea.
So let me get this straight. The intel agents can find out the temperature of the chair all the regimental leaders sit in for a single meeting, but couldn't find full regiments on worlds? They can find out deployments of any unit, but not see unknown units training? Why does this sound illogical?
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Requiem
11/21/19 07:37 PM
1.158.182.82
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Question – what if you do not have all the NAIS Books?
Cannon is not wrong it is just so incomplete that there is no way to make a definitive judgment based upon the lack of empirical evidence. As it stands there is only individuals perceptions as to what can or cannot be done!
Also what is included in the above title? ... “Alt. History” – so attempting to go pure Canon here is not helpful, there is only the balance of probability as to what can be assumed to be successful.
So as for military intelligence – do we now need a table based upon 2D10 to determine how accurate the information you were provided and then base it upon how good each states intelligence units are able to work in different states and during different time periods so that the game master can modify the defending units – if you roll a number that is way off then the defender can increase their units accordingly or if you roll close to the number in question the information provided was excellent or the amount of units was even below that which was expected?
Trying to say how good / bad your intelligence is without a table will again never be resolved!
Therefore should we also have a 2D10 roll to determine the availability of Jumpships?
As far as I can see this the only way this will ever be resolved ….
5th Sword of Light
How may worlds are there in each realm – how many of them can be considered to be hidden? Somewhere in the tens of thousands? So how easy would it be to have them drop off the radar / go dark – receive new equipment / training and lie doggo. All the while a counterfeit 5th Sword of Light can take their place and bee seen to be continually moving around?
News
First, television – video and then you send your agent out to get visual confirmation together with pictures – so that boots on the ground provide accurate and verifiable information.
Question – how can Yakuza soldiers who have only received a very quick training be considered to be utilizing star league era mechs to their full effect?
Sorry I doubt this could be considered to be an accurate statement.
Seppuku – sorry it is not left out …
What about the first commander, Yorinaga Kurita, of the Genyosha? After he was unable to defeat Kell Hounds what did he do?
It is also noted in that battle that a knowledge of Boshido was used by the Kell Hounds to gain an advantage over the Genyosha ….
Minobu Tetsuhara and the Wolfs Dragoons on Misery?
There is also evidence that some of the Coordinators were removed from their office due to incompetence ….
What about Roweena Kurita assisting Taragi gaining the throne over that of Jon Kurita by humiliating him in the eyes of the Generals?
There are many instances where the traits the Samurai of old are included in the game …
Black Dragon Society
Quote from Wiki – “a hardline traditionalist group opposed to Coordinator Theodore Kurita's reforms of the Draconis Combine. Their intent was to overthrow the government of Theodore Kurita and return the Combine back to the traditional ways that existed prior to the 3030s and Theodore's rise to power”.
Did these reforms also include the creation of Yakuza Units? Yes!
Sorry but I cannot see this hard line unit allowing the existence of Yakuza Military – only Samurai!
This is another huge plot hole in the game that was left out because it was inconvenient for the continuation of the game by the games developers once more.
QUOTE: If the local government thinks there is a spy trying to send out information, they shut down the communications off world.
And this would result in an Interdiction by ComStar!
So let me get this straight. Intel agents can determine which regiment / and their numbers on worlds, however if they are deployed to a hidden base on a hidden world they do not know of this secret training? Why does this sound Logical?
If you allow hidden worlds – WOB – then why can’t you have hidden training facilities upon a hidden worlds – why wouldn’t House units have hidden facilities upon hidden worlds that have gone unknown since the days of Kerensky – it just go’s without saying that if hidden worlds are allowed for whatever reason they must be extended to every age of the game!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/22/19 12:17 AM
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And this would result in an Interdiction by ComStar!
This one first. Comstar helped the Combine lock down the HPG to stop the Dragoons from running from the combine. It is the biggest one in the time line, but there are a few others that Comstar helped stop messages. Or changed them, like they did with the clan invasion. Also, it may not be shutting down the HPG, but restricting all information being sent out. Simple Acolite failed to perform the correct rituals, so the information didn't get sent right sort of thing.
Seppuku – sorry it is not left out …
The examples shown are a small few that actually happened. But the combine would have had alot of issues with keeping soldiers during even the first succession war, much less anything afterwards. When they started losing worlds in the FS, there would have been a mass loss from Seppuku. There wasn't. Why? Because a lot of soldiers did not follow Bushido strictly, or even part of it closely. It states in the books that Warlord Samson didn't follow it. Yet he was in charge of the one district. How would be a good question.
Question – what if you do not have all the NAIS Books?
I will have to see if that intel in on the wiki.
The counter question. Why did you think all units were involved in the fighting? Garrison of worlds would be part of the war, but may not have been in any fights.
And one more idea came up for the garrisons not being famous. Those that do become famous tend to become the core of units that leave the garrison life.
One correction. The general/warlord name is Samsonov. I forgot the ov at the end of the name.
Edited by ghostrider (11/22/19 12:26 AM)
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Requiem
11/22/19 10:01 PM
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Quote: And this would result in an Interdiction by ComStar!
Yes, it is out in the open for all to see, not a hidden backroom deal – A DC noble is, for whatever reason, cutting the people’s access to ComStar’s HPG services, so not only does the entire population on a world know, any traders know as well as the majority of ComStar’s Acolytes – so, just as if any other government would attempt this so to must ComStar react to keep up pretenses the DC and the higher echelon of ComStar have not broken the tenants of Blake and supplied them with Star League era ‘Mechs.
They cannot get away with accepting this – it would demonstrate their bias to DC.
Sorry but I doubt any excuse of an incorrect ritual will be accepted – especially when the DC’s new Star League era mechs take centre stage – the FC will now know that ComStar is interfering – expect a retaliation strike!
Seppuku
Did you read about ancient Samurai committing seppuku on mass with the loss of a battle? – same principle here!
So, yes, I still believe the seppuku principal is still in effect!
Question: Why did you think all units were involved in the fighting?
Considering the number of worlds that changed hands and the descriptions within the Warrior novels I would assumed a majority of all House Units would have been involved at one time or another – especially when reinforcements were required.
Please note – every House Unit (even famous ones) are also a Garrison Unit for an important world – there is virtually nothing written about rapid strike forces that are kept in space (upon a rotation basis) that can strike at key enemy bases / facilities / worlds when it becomes evident they are “ripe” for the picking.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/23/19 03:01 AM
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The DC wasn't the only ones to cut contact for some people. Comstar was locking down spies in the CC during the fourth war. Justin Allard was the only one that went thru to Hanse directly. The others started to go thru the LC and they could not contact the FS without the black boxes.
The FC did find out Comstar was playing politics, when the Ghost regiments showed up. But then they found out Comstar had regiments of mechs while the marriage happened on Terra earlier in the storyline. So their deployment was the first step.
The fact Snord's Irregulars used Comstars deployment to bring out their own upgraded units had shown Comstar didn't know all that was going on.
Accepted and debated are two different things. They used that excuse for more then a few things that didn't get thru. Garbled messages were more likely. In fact, one of the novels had Comstar personnel say something to that effect. I can't remember which one at this time.
But there is a big issue with the timeline and how they dealt with finding Star League mechs in the game. NONE of the depots they found seem to have upgraded mechs in them, as there were plenty of weapons from ones that were found, that the IS states should have had working copies. The Dragoons said there were more then a few cache's raided before they could get to them. But some how, all of those dropped off into nothing. Comstar could get some, but not all. So the chance of finding some in one state and not others would have been impossible. Even Naval weapons should have had enough in stockpiles to get them working and being used again. But the game never dealt with the new lines coming out, and left the old ones to rot.
there is virtually nothing written about rapid strike forces that are kept in space (upon a rotation basis) that can strike at key enemy bases / facilities / worlds when it becomes evident they are “ripe” for the picking.
I will partially agree with this. There was one unit suggested as such during the fourth war. It was the 10rh Deneb Light Calvary that saved the Dragoons by holding back the DC forces for a short time. This is the only unit I can think of at this time.
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Requiem
11/23/19 05:54 PM
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Yes the FC did find out ComStar was training MechWarriors – during the wedding they discovered Acolytes wearing Mechwarrior’s heat exchange vest – they did not discover the Mechs par say!
It was not until the later did Comstar’s Mechs take centre stage.
Once they did – the Fox should have begun his shadow war in earnest. However, I believe this should have been more vicious than was written (Shouldn’t the Fox’s aim be his own regiments of ComStar’s Star League era Mechs?)
Again – he should have used propaganda (the media) to spread the rumor that ComStar war not only assisting the DC they were also assisting the FC - so how would the FWL and CC react to this (That is if the CC still exists!).
This is another reason why the Black Boxes should have been mass produced by the FC at this stage to get around ComStar – also sooner or later the FC should have been able to manufacture their own HPG Station – and set up their own rival Company to that of ComStar – sooner or later their Monopoly should have been challenged with a rival company – Laws should have then been put into place to ensure ComStar could not act in such a way as to actively disrupt the new company (risk of Nationalization of ComStar within the FC)
Comstar sending a garbled message for their own aims – yes I can get behind this assumption, though they would have to be careful it was not used too often.
QUOTE - But the game never dealt with the new lines coming out, and left the old ones to rot.
I agree – another shortfall in the game!
If a hidden stockpile of Mechs was found – shouldn’t they have Star League Era weapon systems, MASK, Beagle Probes etc. – whereas with DC they were all removed and replaced with standard era weapons – this should have been evidence that another party was involved who did not want the DC to have access to advanced weapon systems.
Naval Weapons
Again why not create an armed merchantman vessel – such a vessel would have been better than nothing!
Quote: trike forces that are kept in space (upon a rotation basis) that can strike at key enemy bases / facilities / worlds when it becomes evident they are “ripe” for the picking.
There should have been at least three to four such units on each border and on both sides of the border – this is how important these forces are – just leaving them on garrison duty on world doesn’t make any sense – this them makes for a more rapid / fluid strike / counterstrike along any given border and increases the effective time to achieve your House’s objectives – or even your contactor’s objectives if you are a mercenary.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/24/19 12:40 AM
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they did not discover the Mechs par say!
This is incorrect. It was found that Comstar had regiments of mechs in storage in one of the stories. I want to say it was in the warrior engarde series.
(Shouldn’t the Fox’s aim be his own regiments of ComStar’s Star League era Mechs?)
also sooner or later the FC should have been able to manufacture their own HPG Station
Both of these would be desired, but unable to fulfill as it would have been the FC's word against Comstar, and since the DC/FWL/CC would have sided with Comstar. Also, it was hinted at in books several scientists that were making headway towards building HPG's died mysteriously, and not enough evidence to prove Comstar was behind it.
Main thing about not including new material was the fact hundreds of League caches were found, including manufacturing plants and repair bay, yet not a single copy of advanced equipment was found until they were being built by the successor states? The find of the Goliaths just as the fourth war was raging that Delta Company had to fight was just one example. In the MAC adventure pack, the devastator mech was found with gauss rifles and such, as well as the schematics to make it during the time after the helm core, but no mention of things before this time?
There should have been more then a few things like ERPPC or Streak missiles found on League mechs.
In the canon's setting, the idea of arming jumpships was frowned upon, as doing so would make them targets for hostile forces. This is questionable, especially for those working dangerous areas, even not on the borders. But in it's own aspect, this would mean pulling weight for sinks and the weapons from the total tonnage. Fighters for some or all of the small craft might be a better idea. But then that means no shuttles to move things when needed.
Edited by ghostrider (11/24/19 12:41 AM)
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Requiem
11/24/19 04:34 PM
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Warrior Riposte: Chapter 28 Page 175 – Setting ComStar First Circuit Compound – Hilton Head Island, North America, Terra – Date 18 August - Characters – Akira Brahe and Riva Allard + 4 robed acolytes
Noticing the acolytes were walking funny plus the small of burnt ashqua (‘Mech Coolant)
“I know I felt cooling vests hidden beneath the robes of those Acolytes …. ComStar is training their own MechWarriors”
How many countries have anti trust laws regarding Monopolies? – if now why not in the future? Sooner or later one of the houses should be able to manufacture their own HPG grid, I cannot believe this scenario would be considered to be so unbelievable.
Also what if the assassins ComStar uses to against scientists are captured – what if they break and evidence is discovered as to ComStar’s involvement? How many regiments would this cost them to hush it up?
As for League Caches – wouldn’t they also have League weapons (ER Lasers etc) and computers (BAP, ECM) – where as those operated by DC don’t have them – thus they have been removed by a third party, so who? Occam’s Razor – ComStar!
The principal of armed merchantmen should have been a reality within the game – orbital bombardment upon a concentration of enemy mechs should have still been considered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/24/19 07:46 PM
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The thing is, some caches were recovered by units like Snortd's as Rhonda, his daughter, brought them into play and said they were stolen from a shipment... Don't remember where. Comstar can not confirm or deny this, as they don't know if she did or not. Also, there are a lot of caches that would have to have some in them.
As for Comstar removing advanced systems from caches and leaving the war equipment... I really don't think Comstar would do that. I think they would take the stuff for their own, or at least remove them from other's abilities.
The odd thing about arming jumpships comes to the invader. A pair of Large Lasers or PPCs are part of the normal equipment. As for capital style weapons, I can understand why most commercial jumpships would remove them. Costs and lessening the ability to carry cargo.
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Requiem
11/26/19 06:48 PM
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Book: Rhonda’s Irregulars Page 7 – Under the Paragraph Early Years
During the third Succession War – World: Phecda – The Irregulars discovered a lost Colossus Dropship containing a large stockpile of Star League Battlemechs, many equipped with lostech devices.
Under the orders of Jamie Wolf none were put into service or allowed to be studied by the Lyrans.
It was ensured the only mechs recovered by the Lyrans were common types with no lostech.
Over the course of a year these mechs were smuggled back to Clinton where they were studied, repaired and tested.
In the far future a cover story was disseminated that these mechs were stolen from ComStar – when ComStar made no comment many came to the conclusion it was then a given fact.
Also what does this say about Jamie? Was he still with the Clans at this stage? By not allowing them to prepare for the coming onslaught many deaths, captured worlds etc can be laid directly at his feet.
If this ever became common knowledge how many more units would have joined Waco in his bid to annihilate Wolfs Dragoons? My bet many more – including some house units who went rogue just for the chance to get revenge!
One can only wonder what could have happened if the Irregulars were assigned a Lyran Liaison Officer and these priceless relics were taken by the Lyrans?
I agree ComStar and any House Unit would ensure that any and all Caches found would be stripped clean by the ones who found them for further research.
This is another reason why I believe every house would have established their own units (attached to their R&D development units) to investigate and conduct digs to find and retrieve lostech!
As for Jumpships – if owned by Houses – dedicating a small number to full armed merchantman conversion would make tactical sense – yes there are high costs and the lessening of cargo transport, however how anyone can compare this to the ability to destroy whole enemy units from orbit.
Sorry, but I am under the belief that there should be an independent section in the rules of war forbidding them; or
when the treaty declaring all Jumpships inviolate from attack was established it also included a clause forbidding the manufacture of armed merchantmen; or
all these weapons should have been destroyed during the Succession War – Thus it was not until close to 3050 did the Houses once more gain the ability to manufacture them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/26/19 07:30 PM
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The successor states have ignored the Ares Convention. Do you think they could follow something saying jumpships aren't a target?
And revolutions have destroyed a few to avoid anyone learning they had been started.
Now this is all canon line.
Also what does this say about Jamie? Was he still with the Clans at this stage? By not allowing them to prepare for the coming onslaught many deaths, captured worlds etc can be laid directly at his feet.
This would be like saying NAIS has prevented the rest of the states the ability to prepare for the clans onslaught. They took those mechs and kept them in the best shape they could. What would have happened had anyone found out? Full scale war, with the possibility of nukes and such to make sure if the state didn't get it, no one would. Part of why the Helm Core was able to survive. Only the CC didn't get a copy.
And Comstar still hasn't paid for siding with the clans in the first part of the invasion. They allowed the clans to gain a foothold. Had they said something to the IS, it is very probably, the clans would have been thrown back, and hunted down.
Over the course of a year these mechs were smuggled back to Clinton where they were studied, repaired and tested.
Now there is a stupid thing about this line in the history of the IS. Why the hell would clan born people need to study and test Star League material, as they had used Clan tech long before this? They would have had clan techs with them to keep things working and even possibly upgrade it. This is one of the logic holes, other then the developers not keeping continuity intact.
I want to say the Lyrans did figure out how to build an HPG, and the scientist that was doing so was assassinated. Well made to look like an accident. That was pretty common against those that were closing in on HPG tech.
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Requiem
11/27/19 04:39 AM
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As discussed previously the entire game is riddled with mistakes due to a lack within the stories’ continuality!
What are Jamie’s overarching goal(s) for the Inner Sphere?
How is he going to achieve those goal(s)?
If it is to save the Inner Sphere how is this achievable by not ensuring that every House is given access to advanced technology (weapon) or what about the ability to open the Helms Memory Core earlier than that of the Canon, in not allowing this it looks like he still for the Clans!
What it really shows is that the games overall story development didn’t know where it going at that stage.
As stated previously if one of the overall games aims was to make money – new mech designs etc – then why didn’t they allow the Star League TRO mechs into the game earlier? Why did the book just sit on the shelf for so long? Why didn’t the IS have warships and yet there they are in the TRO and unusable ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/27/19 12:37 PM
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Advanced technology in the hands of the IS leaders is a double edged sword. They would ABOLUTELY use it against each other, possibly hastening the clans victories.
At the point where Jamie was starting the taking and holding the Star League units, is was not a rush to prepare for the clans as the vote to attack the IS was still stalled.
It was a small time after the start of it, they figured the vote was going to be for invasion.
Putting out a rumor that an unidentified force was spotted in the deep periphery by Wolfnet, should have been the start of preparing the IS for the clans. Even giving some direction to where the clan home worlds were. The invasion didn't have the whole route in jump cores, but the Dragoons had the destination and probably use the Exodus road to get to the IS. They did arrive at the FS border.
And with this, wouldn't the Dragoon fleet have run into the same debris traps Comstar did trying to follow the clans route?
Also, the Dragoons were guilty of destroying what may well have been part of the extended jump ability, when they destroyed the parts on one raid. They also knew Davion had started or maybe made some large leaps in double sink research, as they dealt with the Hoff raid. They could have sent or 'left' some help in a cache or some such thing to help get them moving. The sinks alone, working, would have improved the IS chances of defending themselves.
then why didn’t they allow the Star League TRO mechs into the game earlier?
I don't know, but I suspect they didn't really have this planned out before hand. Just threw it together and put it out. The whole TC+Pulse laser aim targeting idea has me thinking this way. To be honest, they could have released some of the stuff before the TRO, in the form of parts at Helm, or finds in other locations that had some advanced weapons. Not all would be known by Comstar.
Why did the book just sit on the shelf for so long?
Possibly, they were trying to get other things sold, such as the time up to the 3039 war and beyond. Other then Comstars mechs to the DC, which supposedly had all high tech removed from it, there wasn't really much else that dealt with it. So they made money with another short war before they released the clans.
And here is something that bothers me about the 'upgraded' mechs when the clans came in. The lack of building abilities would not have allowed every single mech to be upgraded, as some of them had to be built/rebuilt in order to use some of it. Endosteel being one of those items.
And with those that were built from scratch, where did the units they replaced go to?
Merc and militia would be the first thought. Yet there is nothing that even hints at this.
Ferrous Fiber armor is another that would require extensive work. The criticals being the idea here.
XL engines are another one that requires more crits.
Some of this can NOT be simple field upgrades such as the Endosteel.
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Requiem
11/27/19 07:00 PM
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Yes I agree they would have used the technology against each other, however, considering how the following succession wars did not achieve the overall aim of becoming the new First Lord – if they all had new technology at the same time I doubt it would affect the Succession Wars – to do this it would require one House to have superiority in numbers and in technology over the remaining Houses.
Question: How did Jamie know what was happening on the Clan home worlds on a day-to-day basis when there was only two / three supply runs by the Clans during his entire time in the IS?
Politically ‘things’ can change overnight – there is no certainty that Jamie could have known in advance when the invasion was going to occur – one day they would just appear and they (Wolfs Dragoons) would know that they are now expected to return home.
There is no way he could know in advance!
Thus the only way forward from the day he decided to assist the IS against the Clans would be to assist all the Houses (technologically) so they could resist the Clans.
Anything else would leave the IS to be rolled over by the Clans technological superiority.
As the Dragoons appeared by the FS border they either followed the original 2 year exodus route back to the IS or they followed the route the Wolverines took (which, in my opinion, would be more plausible).
Remember – the exodus route was broken into many parts and each Clan was given one part – so it would take the majority to reform the entire map. However this is a complete misnomer – an advanced computer / mathematician could use geometry to work out where the IS was.
As for the debris trap – they departed the IS all the way over by the DC / FS border then took a sharp left hand turn – Comstar would need to start from this point and follow it from there – not all the way on the top by the LC / DC border and go from there!
Quote: The sinks alone, working, would have improved the IS chances of defending themselves
Yes I agree, however it would take more than just the sinks alone – it would take the complete arsenal of weapons and electronics available to the Star League to be even considering stopping the Clans!
In for a penny in for a pound!
At this stage only Comstar and Wolf Dragoons would have the complete blue prints available to resurrect the Star Leagues Weapons for the remaining Houses!
I agree with you these cannot be simple field upgrades – from 3040 to 3050 there must have been a quantum leap in new technology that was slowly being distributed to all house units - all older mechs should have gone to either reserve units or sold to merc units (thus during this period there should have been an increase in the number of merc units being formed). Also I would like to add – Solaris – there should have also been a massive change in weapons / mechs within the dueling arenas during this period also.
By not explaining this it leaves a black hole as to what was going on in the years prior to the Clans arrival – unfortunately it looks as though the game developers just decided to jump ahead and make massive changes so that their clan project could start.
I would also like to ask where all the FC regiments went to? In 3039 they have over 260 Mech Regiments - by 3050 it was down to just over 100 – can someone please explain how this happened?
Sorry but this is where the game began to freefall!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/27/19 09:01 PM
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I know the bs of the 3039 war took it's toll, but the fact the FC was able to rebuild their forces up from the fourth war so well, and not afterwards does sound wrong. The DC did take like 6 factories from the FS, but lost some to the FRR formation.
Just another one of those jumps that don't follow their own guidelines, it seems. Now it could be said the regiments were destroyed from alot of little wars that came about, such as the Skye revolt and such. But again. The numbers seem to not follow their established numbers.
It does seem like the game jumps 20 plus years in the story line, but using any sort of logic as to what happened during that time seems to just disappear. More then a few questions comes up with that. It is also kind of annoying when you are playing the RPG. Just as you get a character in position to do something good, you now have to use their children or make up a new character to run with.
The Dragoons would have some blueprints or at least someone to know more then Star League weapons. They brought warships to the IS, though stashed them outside of it. Clan weapons would be known as well, with elemental armor being one of them. The wolves did seem to allow the freebirths into the military, and tech sections. Hell. 5 regiments with the assault battalion was handed over to a freebirth with a single bloodnamed warrior to watch over them.
Without the zig zag, the exodus trail wouldn't be as long, but the starting destination would still be in original Dragoon jumpships and especially the war ships. There should have been no real need for Trent to do the journey to the clan home worlds. Comstar would have had information on systems they were exploring in the deep periphery to begin with. Even without looking for the clans. They would have been searching for resources. So part of that path would have been known.
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Requiem
11/30/19 02:25 AM
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It is not on the BS of the 3039 war – it is the continual issues throughout the entire history that continually sounds wrong is what continually pushes me to establish my own history. There are just way too many errors for me to reconcile the Canon History with anything that could be considered believable.
(Here I can only assume the games developers never appointed someone to ensure the accurate continuity of the history as it progressed - ie. no one sat down and asked they right questions to ensure a believable story was adhered to)
Quote: It is also kind of annoying when you are playing the RPG. Just as you get a character in position to do something good, you now have to use their children or make up a new character to run with.
I, couldn’t agree more – very astute!
The Dragoons would also understand 'omni-technology' ….. if the Dragoons were truly with the IS why didn’t they provide this information to various BattleMech manufacturing facilities prior to the invasion.
As they didn’t …. What does this indicate? It wasn’t until the last second until they had made their minds up? … however, when you consider Jamies’ reputation as master general …. With a strong organizational and tactical ability … this doesn’t gel at all, once more! It makes no sense at all …. Again!!!!
Exodus Route and ComStar
Comstar could have started looking for the Star League from a couple years after they departed the IS. If you consider this to be true then, it could be true that it did take a couple hundred years to find out they were somewhere above the IS (above the LC and DC border) by following all the blind routes used by the SLDF to try and hide.
However wouldn't this also provide ComStar with is a very detailed map of many uninhabited systems from the DC / FS border all the way through to the Deep Periphery along the LC / DC Border – that was never included in the Canon game – there is something missing from the game when it comes to understanding how ComStar finds the Clans and why they chose the direction they ended up taking when you consider the point the SLDF departed the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/30/19 11:07 AM
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The Plainsman hover tank was something that showed they were looking to bring omni mechanics to the Dragoon's forces. It is also curious on what their space station had in it, when dealing with this tech as well as normal clan tech. Honestly, I can see greed being a large reason to NOT get the tech into the IS. It would give the military's the ability to fight above their actual skills. That would make it that much harder for the Dragoons to perform their jobs as mercs.
Believable stories, and actual history aren't always running parallel. There are some things that would make the story line seem more exciting, but after a while, it becomes the same old thing. Civil wars is a good one. Only way to prevent one faction from taking out the rest is to have a civil war, to knock them down, as even combined, the others don't seem to be able to do it.
You would also ask why they can not spot some meglomaniac, or other nasty habits, in the royal lines by this time
Comstar should have good maps for worlds in all directions, not just the exodus road. Not only having the old League maps, but just normal exploration should have happened. What else were they using their warships for, when the states no longer had any? Kind of hard to miss them in a populated system, and no one raised any fuss about them? Not likely.
There is a odd question on how Huntress was found and not other clan worlds. Huntress seems to be a second jump world. Not exactly the border of clan space, yet not that deep into it. I have doubts that it would be that world they would find. The clans would have to have colonies being made, if for harvesting resources if nothing else. Yet the Outbound Light didn't run into them first? This is akin to landing in West Europe and finding Italy before Spain or the UK.
One more thing about finding 'lostech' in caches and such, like the Snord find. I find it unlikely that the mechs from the League era were the same exact mechs used in the 3000's. The locust having an ml and two mgs didn't come about because of the tech that was in them, went extinct, and the manufacturers didn't just put in something to replace it with? Really? How about pulse lasers in the arms or maybe Streak packs with Endosteel or XL engine to negate the extra weight.
The Wasp is a good one. The SRM in the leg. Stupid location period. Now I would think that maybe it had A-Pods there, and the SRM put in when they could not get any more A-Pods. Otherwise, the whole story of the IS mechs being changed because of a lack of the high tech just doesn't work.
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Requiem
11/30/19 07:40 PM
1.158.182.82
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What is the role of the Dragoons …. As directed by Jamie Wolf ….
Initially as a reconnaissance unit for the Clans.
And then over time … Jamie and Snord both came to the conclusion to save the IS from the Clans, so how did they achieve this goal?
How can you save the IS without decreasing the technological gap between the IS and the Clans as well as providing new tactical strategies? Sorry, but this is the only way ….
As for the Plainsman it can in no way be described as a vehicle that could be used to protect the IS against a future assault by the Clans …. as described in the Sarna Wiki it is ….
- Was conceived as part of the Wolf’s Dragoon rearmament program of 3030;
- It in no way was an omni vehicle; and
- The Plainsman was used by many “second-echelon units” in the Lyran Alliance, Free Worlds League and the Draconis Combine.
Sorry, but I cannot see how greed can be used a justifiable reason for why the Dragoons would not protect the IS. Or by assisting all the houses with their technology would make their performance harder to achieve.
Can it be said that Wolfs’ and Snords’ decision to do nothing at all prior the Clans arrival be considered believable when their overarching aim is to protect the IS ….. sorry, but I call BS on this point.
Yes, I agree all the Houses would have an internal protection mechanism to protect the state and the people against a megalomaniac royal – from the DC assassination to the LA impeachment by their Government’s Lords.
Yes ComStar should have very good maps – the hidden five worlds should have been hidden amongst these worlds – loosing five colony worlds during the succession wars is quite unbelievable!
There is one question I would like asked – why send the Outbound Light out so far? Surely there should have been a cut off limit? Why was it so important to find the lost SLDF ….
As for swapping out Lost-tech for something more current … a good engineer would notice when bolts have been removed and then put back – there should be small tell tale scratches / how easy it is to remove bolts (after a couple of hundred years in the damp you may need WD40 to loosen some of the Bolts etc.) – ie. Evidence that maintenance currently occurred ….
Sorry but I doubt swapping out old for new will fool anyone for very long ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/30/19 10:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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First thought comes to mind about the Dragoons not saving the IS might be the fact that they did not have to do much until the houses had to rely on them. To be honest, I would think they tried, and got tired of the BS in the states. The meeting on Outreach may have been the first time the house lords believed they were in trouble.
Also, what do you think the houses would have done if the Dragoons came to them before the clans invaded and said they were scouts for them, but turned their backs on them? Probably sent massed units in to destroy them.
So timing could be a big factor in why they didn't do it before hand. It isn't like the clans would have tried to conquer the entire IS. Just get to Terra.
The wiki here just states what the developers says is canon. Yet canon has changed more then a few things. The plainsman may not have been full omni technology, but then the mongoose wasn't either. And it had quick change parts in it. Showing the leaders the concept was valid and doable might have been behind the tank. Other then that, it really didn't seem like that great of a unit.
Greed is a very powerful thing. To become the heroes of the IS by rushing in to save the houses at the last minute, or to show up comstar would very well cause people to hold off. Glory runs tends to be the concept here. It happens in the world today. And honestly. The Dragoons could sit on Outreach and not have to do much against the clans until they got to Terra and took it. The idea of the numbers game might well have played a big part in this.
There is one question I would like asked – why send the Outbound Light out so far? Surely there should have been a cut off limit? Why was it so important to find the lost SLDF ….
Possibly to find any caches and such if the League personnel died?
Possibly looking for worlds they could use? The disturbing part of this is they may well have been trying to get some factories established out here so they could use military force to do what their little games did not. Secured the IS for themselves.
I do agree that there needed to be some sort of resupply base in the periphery for the explorer corps to use while doing such a deep recon mission.
The locust example was actually the opposite concept then the response.
What was removed/left out of newer(3025) Locust mechs that the League had in them?
3 mgs/sls in each arm? 3 weapons ports with only 1 used?
The ml might have been something different, like a pulse or even slip a Large Laser in it with other savings? Things like this would make it 'superior' and explain the downgrades when the advance tech was lost. Can't fit the stuff in without an XL/Endosteel.
The little things done with 2750 just did not show the league units were superior to the 3025 units. Better? Yes. But nothing really that much better. I really think not just the royal or elite units would have had mechs with more tech in it then shown.
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Requiem
12/01/19 09:26 PM
1.158.182.82
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QUOTE: what do you think the houses would have done if the Dragoons came to them before the clans invaded and said they were scouts for them, but turned their backs on them?
The Dragoons didn’t need to take this path at all – prior to the Clans arrival why not send loyal (to Jamie) Wolf Net agents – have them pose as agents of the realm they are in (ie. LC – Loki) have them make contact with the CEOs of those companies that need an increase in technology and just have them hand over the information with strict instructions they are never to divulge where the information from – they are just required to implement the new technology with all due haste.
In a very quick time you could have an IS Renaissance - as for ComStar they are now hunting ghosts – or they believe the Helm Memory Core has been opened and House Lords are actually using this information for their Realms benefit.
Question: once the clans gets to Terra what’s next? Their Mongol upbringing would indicate a second crusade to conquer the entire IS as their new fiefdoms.
Question: Has anyone in the Dragoons (except for Snord – who used this as his reason for establishing a new recon unit) shown any sign of greed or hubris? How about Natasha?
As for a numbers game – what happened between the 20 year update and the House Books at the start of the Clan War? Massive discrepancy in lost units? And what about the IS tactics used? And what about the the clans supply lines and the number of sibko graduates per year in comparison to losses within the IS? Sorry but the game took a real hit here in the believability of the story.
Risk Vs. Reward – Outbound Light
Sorry again but to me this is just way too far out for any possible reward. If anything was found how are you ever going to salvage it? Does ComStar even possess the resources to undertake such a mission so far out?
Is ComStar did establish a resupply base in the deep periphery – considering the length of time they were involved in this mission – can we say that this base has evolved over time into a City – and if captured by the Clans then after the Twilight of the Clans wouldn’t they want it back – thus ComGuard should have initiated a challenge for the City and all its ComStar personnel.
Considering mechs have been in existence for 600 years when looking at their technological development over that time frame it looks as though little to no development occurred – not even within the Clans. This is another point I am completely disappointed in within the game. I would say the development as given in the game is more like 100-150 years it can in no way represent 600 years.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/02/19 02:18 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with posing as house Spec ops, like LOKI, is when you go to a factory with the upgrades, and the factory either request information from the house lords, or wonders if it is all a fake in order to cost the company money. And it might just be, one of the board members IS from the house spec ops. But this is only a possible outcome.
Question: once the clans gets to Terra what’s next? Their Mongol upbringing would indicate a second crusade to conquer the entire IS as their new fiefdoms.
This is possible, but unlikely in any timely manor. The argument of their numbers can be used here. They just don't have the forces to garrison that many worlds. And with the sibko issues, the IS will most likely catch up in tech and overwhelm the clans. Also, the question remains on IF the clans would create fiefdoms. They seem to be focused on becoming the ultimate clan, and spreading out your forces weakens you more then helps you. The whole trial of possession issue with the invasion corridor shows this is more likely. Now once a single clan is the il clan, then the rules may well change.
Question: Has anyone in the Dragoons (except for Snord – who used this as his reason for establishing a new recon unit) shown any sign of greed or hubris? How about Natasha?
Yes. There were more then a few that were greedy. Check out the original Black Widow pack. One of the trooper was supposedly a colonel, and got caught making up units that didn't exist to funnel money into their pockets. There were a few other examples, but can't remember where I seen them at this time.
Sorry again but to me this is just way too far out for any possible reward. If anything was found how are you ever going to salvage it? Does ComStar even possess the resources to undertake such a mission so far out?
Comstar has alot of resources to do things like this. They had an entire warship fleet as well as their own jumpships they made. As for it being profittable? I doubt it.
I am starting to think they had to have something going. The Explorer jumpship was supposed to have a years worth of supplies. It doesn't sound right that they would have to come back for the supplies. And they wouldn't have the HPG network to call for any. So six months out, six months back... just not enough time to do what they needed to.
can we say that this base has evolved over time into a City.. Depending on how long it was running, it could very well be an entire established planet. One of the hidden worlds, as the IS wouldn't have any knowledge of it at all. None of the crap of losing the coords crap. Now it is possible the supply locations may have been off the invasion lines enough that the clans wouldn't run into them. Possible, not written in stone.
That is the dark ages, or stone ages showing up here. I can understand some things taking milenia to advance, as you need certain materials and conditions to do some of it. Endosteel and zero-g comes to mind. Making the equipment to even test it might take time.
And I can see some upgrades being lost to things like attacks. A single research facility or even just an independent group of scientists getting wiped out with no one knowing they were close to creating say a super jump core that doesn't destroy itself when used.
But I will agree that some things seemed to be too slow to be made. The ERLL should have had the ERML made before the League collapsed. The streak lrms is another thing. But that would be story line. Selling books could well see them slow to a single advancement per TRO.
If you want a real life example, Africa has been around several thousand years, and so far, most of the advances has been outside of the tribal war driven mindset there. It has been the more 'advanced" or maybe less war minded countries that have come up with the newer advancements. Then again, it could well be, they were too well evenly matched to do more then temporary victories.
If this last part is in violation of the rules, please let me know. I will delete it, and except any punishment deemed for it.
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Requiem
12/02/19 04:59 PM
1.158.182.82
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If a company was provided with a technological competitive advantage that could generate huge amounts of income at the same time, would they really look a gift horse in the mouth?
Sorry no, I doubt they would care where it came from …
Quote: This is possible, but unlikely in any timely manor. The argument of their numbers can be used here.
Question: Once the issue of il-Clan has been settled would not ALL of the Clans (those in the IS and those on the Home Worlds) would now be free to establish their new fiefdoms? Also wouldn’t the IS Clans be fee of the initial bid – thus they can bring in everything they want? But that point is in error – because, as you have pointed out earlier, garrisons don’t count to the bid amount as to the number of forces allowed in the IS.
As for Sibko numbers – when have the clans (game developers) demonstrated that this has ever affected the Clans? They have always had the numbers available – whereas the IS forces have always been restricted – Nepotism to one side over the other.
Have the Dragoons shown any concern for the IS in providing them with any weapon system that could be used to combat the Clans? Not once ….
It wasn’t until the Clans invaded did they provide the IS leaders with Information only – no technological assistance whatsoever!
Quote: Comstar - entire warship fleet
If I remember correctly it was three or four warships – this hardly makes a fleet.
As for resupply points for the ComStar Explore Corps – It is highly possible that supply cashes were established to allow for them to continue their remit – my guess is this is just another whoops moments by the game developers when they were establishing their second rate story of the events.
Yes I agree Technological Advancement appears to be extremely slow in some areas – even within the Clan Home Worlds.
For me the only true advancement was demonstrated by the WOM – omni – cyber implants – transformable fighters – drones – ground based anti warship weapons etc – The silly thing is that no realm used this technology to develop their own weapons based upon WOB advancements.
For me these should be used as template for all House units post Jihad to develop heir own new military forces - as they haven't demonstrates a complete lack of understanding.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/02/19 08:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Question: Once the issue of il-Clan has been settled would not ALL of the Clans (those in the IS and those on the Home Worlds) would now be free to establish their new fiefdoms?
I would think that is the last thing the il clan would want. Fiefdoms promote independent thoughts from the clans, which the il clan would want as much control over as they could get. Granted, it might promote losses among all potential enemies of the il clan. Have all clans bid for each word and fight for that right. Slowly grind down the others, while continuing to build your own forces. The clans did not breed out being sneaky power hunger from it's people. It only allowed others to stop it with trials. The primary evil, politics, was running rampant near the invasion and beyond periods.
As for Sibko numbers – when have the clans (game developers) demonstrated that this has ever affected the Clans? They have always had the numbers available
The big one was after the Wolf trial of refusal against the Falcons in the IS. Both clans were desperate to avoid having multiple trails of absorbtion against them. The Falcons use the 'magical' scientists warriors that were not authorized by the clan. The wolves pissed everyone off, so the bids would be nasty and low enough numbers to do something with.
The C3 system is one advancement that would have been great. That is IF it was used from when it was released. The Stealth Armor was another, though I really don't think it should have been done. They dropped the Sensor Baffling (equipment/building materials) and came out with something for mechs. Even if this was the evolution of the materials, why was the original stuff dropped?
Either the adventure pack wasn't canon, or they had to remove it so the clans could steam roller over all, as the IS could have hidden in such bases, pretty safe from clan sensors.
I want to say 3055 said comstar stopped making warships, and mothballed the ones they had during the succession wars. Hard to hide, and the expenses were creeping up. No one found these ships, and it is very possible Comstar reactivated a few, or more likely, sent out more Explorer jumpships.
And the company tech statement. The companies of the IS would care about being handed blueprints for an advanced weapons set up, that didn't come from house research. Once they tested it, then they would not be so concerned, but how would the executive board answer inquiries about the tech? The house lords may well seize the company, and execute the people the knew and ok'ed the deployment of such tech. It may be the only way to avoid the tech from being sold to other nations.
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Requiem
12/02/19 09:58 PM
1.158.182.82
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Quote: Fiefdoms promote independent thoughts from the clans
Even when the fiefdoms are controlled by other Clans?
Sibko Numbers
Quote: the Wolf trial of refusal against the Falcons in the IS. Both clans were desperate to avoid having multiple trails of absorbtion against them.
Another big Oops moment when the LA and the Kell Hound’s did not immediately put these two the sword – they should have been conquered and turned into bondsmen of the LA.
Advanced Equipment
C3 System / Stealth Armor etc –
Somewhere along the line someone should have looked at the Gumdam Series and incorporated many of their Vehicles and Weapons in to the Battletech Game.
There is a lacking when it comes to technology and when they become available and who has first dibs – there needs to be one new book that incorporates everything into one book!
Sorry, but I don’t see the problem with ComStar continuing to make Warships – they would be very easy to hide – especially when you consider the Terran Alliance had 600+ systems at its height and the lost 5 worlds of the WOB – They could have had a fleet in the thousands by 3050!
Quote: The house lords may well seize the company, and execute the people the knew and ok'ed the deployment of such tech.
Sorry no, all houses would have given them a Title and then told to mass produce as quickly as possible …. Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/03/19 01:40 AM
66.74.60.165
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Even when the fiefdoms are controlled by other Clans?
Very much so. The clans were not about fiefdoms, but of military supremacy. Raw resources were always needed, but that is counter to most of the resources in the old Alliance territory, even before Kerensky left.
If fiefdoms were something they wanted, the clan home world region would be much larger then it was.
If you believe the story line, Ulric was trying to destroy the crusader part of the wolves, while the wardens went to Phelan. The Falcons should have been targeted for destruction, though the idea that it might set off the other clans as weak comes up. I don't quite agree with it, as the Dragoons and even the Warden Wolves would have said something.
Somewhere along the line someone should have looked at the Gumdam Series and incorporated many of their Vehicles and Weapons in to the Battletech Game.
This is a dead subject. They got caught doing this with Robotech, they sure the hell weren't or aren't going to repeat it with another company's ideas. This might well be why they can't come out with some things that would make the game better. LAMs are Vertitech fighters. Hence, needed to be removed. A lot of the original mechs were the same way, hence the unseen concept of them.
Sorry no, all houses would have given them a Title and then told to mass produce as quickly as possible …. Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
The goose could well sell to the enemy, and remove your butt from the throne being one good reason to do so. But it comes down to wanting to know WHERE the information had come from. No research into PPC from an AC company, would mean a cache would come to mind. Well the house would want those parts for their own researchers. And to find out it came from a private source, means a very good chance of other issues. The smart choice would be give out a defective system, like the TSM the CC got. I would think viruses in the system would be a nice way to deal with things.
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Requiem
12/03/19 06:55 AM
1.158.182.82
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The Clan Home worlds should have been larger than given – However, Holy Dogma laid down Kerensky made this quite impossible.
Yes I agree Ulric split the Wolves in two Crusader / Warden – However this does not stop the fact that when both the Falcons and the Wolves were at their weakest the LA should have initiated either a trial of annihilation or absorption upon the two Clans – Just imagine the possibilities Katherine with her own two pet clans – How could Victor win in the future if this came to pass?
Gundam as an idea factory ….
Don’t know about other countries – but here the legal rule is “just noticeable difference”.
You don’t copy the pictures but you can use the idea to create a variant that could do a similar function!
As for removing the unseen – these are the exact pictures from Robotech – change them to something else and I doubt they could be removed from the game. Case in point – WOB transformable fighters – these are not under those that are removed (as far as I understand the situation).
QUOTE: The goose could well sell to the enemy, and remove your butt from the throne being one good reason to do so.
Hyperbolae and conjecture!
Obtaining advanced weapons that work – who would ever give these up?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/03/19 12:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Clan Home worlds should have been larger than given – However, Holy Dogma laid down Kerensky made this quite impossible.
This could be used to argue against the fiefdoms. Those that follow the 'code' closely would say this is what Kerensky wanted, and follow it after they took Terra.
I agree that the Falcons should have been removed, which is why the bs of the scientist having an army made up is too convenient in the way it saved them from such a fate.
Don’t know about other countries – but here the legal rule is “just noticeable difference”.
You don’t copy the pictures but you can use the idea to create a variant that could do a similar function!
I want to say 30% difference is needed, but not too sure on that. And that was the issue. Taking the exact pictures and using them.
But with this, I wonder if the developers are having issues trying to come up with new things and can't seem to keep away from other ideas enough to avoid the law suits.
The Wasp, Stinger, and Phoenix Hawk were definitely taking from Robotech. The new LAMs probably have different looks, so it avoids the issues.
Obtaining advanced weapons that work – who would ever give these up?
Double edged sword here. I could say the same thing about nukes and other WMDs. Same with Warship bombardments. And even that, you could use any naval weapon to do so, including the pocket warships. Just thinking of this now, I can see why they didn't want to allow such a thing to happen. Geosync them around a world and you can own it, though wiping out anything that flies is needed.
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Requiem
12/03/19 07:09 PM
1.158.182.82
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Quote: This could be used to argue against the fiefdoms.
Question, and it could also be argued that they would go for fiefdoms as how many times have the Clans gone against these tenants for their own glory (ie. The glory of their Khan!).
It is very hard to say with any certainty which route they would take – except for the idea this would mean more wars and is this not the aim of the game?
Yes I agree every country has their own rules when it comes to plagiarism – and is very hard to understand the complexity of all of the issues.
Quote: I could say the same thing about nukes and other WMDs. Same with Warship bombardments.
Yes this is true – however for those that want these in their game, they can have them! – However, for me and mine they no longer exist as they have become obsolete or outlawed by the rules of war. Similar to WW2 – they had chemical and biological but was never used in combat kind of deal.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/03/19 08:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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Obtaining advanced weapons that work – who would ever give these up?
This question didn't seem like it was about the alt, but a general question of human nature.
The issue has come to the fore front in the last 10 years or so. Maybe 20. Several times chemical weapons were used. And biological weapons were used in a few wars as well.
The game doesn't need these things, even if it means shifting from a more reality based environment.
I might even believe the lack of drones and other weapons that are large damage weapons, such as cruise missiles may well be kept out to avoid the game from becoming pure long range destruction. No need for mechs to fight physical combats. It would shift from pilots in machines that can be killed, to the best coms and ecm to hit targets with remote weapons.
I still don't agree with the extremely close range of even the longest range(non artillery) weapons on a mech. Not even a mile sounds too short.
And if the writers didn't allow Vlad to live, the Crusader wolves would have ceased to exist. But going by the better story/more war, this would have cut out a lot of the story. Same with the Falcons.
On a side note. I think someone high up in management liked these two clans and prevented their destruction, as the Jaguars were destroyed without much sympathy to them. No trials of possession for their lands or items left. For some of the weaker clans, this could very well have allowed them to gain strength.
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Requiem
12/04/19 03:16 AM
1.158.182.82
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When considering to remove weapons from the game consider what this means ….
Consider a Rifleman’s extreme range Vs. Altitude of a Aerospace fighter bombing run - perhaps there is still a need for a SAM?
As for a cruise missile – is there an automatic computer tracking within a Mech which made this obsolete?
As long as artillery pieces are in the game there will always be long range complement to the game.
As for Vlad – he could have lived just long enough to keep the Wolves separate. If he was killed thereafter is it such an impediment to the game’s story development? Or he could have become part of the dark caste – looking for revenge!
So the Lyrans should have had the Falcons and the Wolves via a sanctioned trial – they should have assimilated them into the Lyran military – the Kell Hounds would still have Wolves in exile - this is how it should have progressed at this stage.
This just demonstrates why the game is on a downward spiral and why there needs to be a rewrite of the complete history.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/05/19 12:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is need for a lot of things that are still left out of the game. SAMs would basically stop a lot fighter and even dropship activity on the enemy's side. Costly in some aspects, but spending even 10 million on a single SAM and taking out a 100 million dropship with military units is a good deal. Granted, it isn't likely the missile will do that much damage, but forcing a piloting roll, or hitting maneuvering surfaces could well bring it down.
And yeah. The SAM missile should not cost that much.
A mechs sensor suite may or may not detect an incoming cruise missile, as it doesn't always detect other ground units much closer. And even if it did, what could a mech do to stop it? Run or maybe AMS fire, but even that isn't likely to stop it.
But that does bring up some other lines of tech that can be used. Armored missiles, ecm built into a missile, even better sensors, as most mechs seem to have a limited range.
The reason behind the mech sensors not doing great is because aerofighters have surprised them in the past. The fighter should be larger then a cruise missile.
The issue with artillery is the inability to hit moving targets. You need hex targeting. So while you have it, it isn't even close to hitting with a direct ballistic weapon most of the time. So hitting the walls or buildings of a base is far easier then hitting even an Annihilator moving across a field. Even without the Annihilator pilot being aware they are being targeted, trying to time out the strike to where the mech is, can be a pain. Especially open field with other targets on it. Simple stepping to the side a hex or two can prevent the attack from doing much.
The story line is having issues. The game main issue is a changing rules, and not actually playtesting it thoroughly.
The way infantry takes damage from energy weapons would have changed a huge amount of fights, so the history is voided.
The breaking of their own rules in the next rule book gets old. The Argus is a good example as well as monitors. Why can't a system that builds jumpships and war ships, have warships guarding them that doesn't jump? Maybe making a new class that is like that, as pocket war ships seem an expensive, underpowered ship.
A complete rewrite of the rules was said to be something that couldn't happen. Yet D&D did it, and it is more popular now.
Granted, battle tech does not have several games out there using the platform for it, as Diablo was set up using the D&D stat rules.
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