Alt History / Thoughts re Clan Invasion of IS

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | >> (show all)
wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 11:57 AM
74.214.54.153

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I found the plagues I thought Requiem was talking about. One was in the homeworlds and affected the Fire Mandrills and Steel Vipers. The other was on Galedon and that was in 3069. Neither seemed that relevant.
Requiem
06/12/18 09:52 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The title of this post is “ALT History / Thoughts regarding the Clan Invasion” – Alternative(s) to the actual history – why do you keep trying to bring it back to the original as written – The Clan Invasion is as written is the ONLY this way and can never be changed?

Quote: It is written by the creators, therefore it is Cannon

Case in point ….. Please note this post was to be about thinking outside the box …. Not limiting it to the box only …. OK?

Query …… Nothing in a game-world is Cannon …. Everything can be modified …. From one game master to the next to the next from one game night to the next …. Especially when utilizing an RPG style game format … each game master sets the parameters and the players react accordingly …. It all comes down to what each group enjoys …. Is this not so? House Rules are the way to go …

This is what this post was to be about …. House Rules …. House thoughts on how you change the main narrative to what you might prefer in your own home …. Or is that wrong of me I am not allowed to do that. I can only go by what all the novels and history as written?

OK, so let us get back to basics – why was the all the IS forces reduced so considerably by the game-makes between that of twenty year update, which indicates House units Deployment as of 3050, and those sourcebooks as at the start of the Clan Invasion?

Why was this done? To stop advanced tactics; limit IS ability to respond accordingly; Being Lazy; too difficult; would cause unforeseen problems or is there another reason?

First add this dimension back to the game … more troops … more possibilities …

Case 1:

You intimate the Clan Invasion was a very Fast campaign thus limiting all IS responses? Correct
IS were able to mount a successful defence …. Then why can you not accept using commandoes upon their garrison worlds …. using high powered sniper rifle platoons during the invasion? How many units could they have as a security force for each 8-12 hour shift …. Could you exploit their lack of security (no real training in this area) to cause a disturbance … get the bulk of their military to move out …. Then execute a quick snatch and grab upon all the remaining bases support personnel …. Then get them evacuated off world by pirate point? How will the remaining clan warriors be able to feed / fix their machines etc without their support personnel? And if this was done upon multiple worlds at the same time?

Would this not cause the main fleet to send back replacement personnel? How will they change their garrisons going forward considering the limited number of elementals on hand?

Case 2:

Scouting is different from attacking in the periphery.

Lack of Jumpships means they are not available to be utilized to both fight the clans on the main front – conduct raids in the rear of the clans (on their newly acquired Garrison) worlds and send forces into the periphery at the same time to hunt down their supply bases.

How does anyone know this is not possible! where is it written down anywhere how many jump-ships are available to each House – their numbers are only discussed in vague terms only – so again why not?

Why limit the game to just the IS only?

Why not expand the game? Lets invade the periphery and the Deep Periphery and go after the Clans like pirates of old / submarine wolfpacks?

Then Transfer any “salvage” back to the IS? How would this change the game by giving the IS weapons parity to that of the clans?

What if you gave Pirates “letters of Mark that are passed down from one generation to the next” – in the future this could get very interesting?

Case 3:

Nukes

Fist it is discussed that CC can use them upon the FC if they invade them in 3039

Then I said due to Samurai Honour – The destruction of Turtle Bay occurred because the people rose up to assist the Scion of House Kurita to escape the Clans – required a response (one that the original books left out and without a response can only be seen as a Loss of Honour and face) – This loss of face would demand a reprisal – Is it so wrong to contemplate a Kamikaze attack upon Clan Smoke Jaguar using nukes to regain their honour and face?

Thus the FC will be drawn into a nuclear war as well?

Thus Nukes against Warships – Warships against Planets (industries and CinC) thus brining the game to an early Jihad than expected?

Case 4:

Mass Aerospace Assaults

I am unable to use this because the FWL may attack – Lack of time to coordinate such a venture?

After the signing of the new Star League – was there not an agreement to cease all inter House Fighting during this time of crisis?

The FWL were getting rich by being the IS major supplier of weapons – so why risk this by attacking?

Then we have the year of peace – one year to move things around the map – Cannot I assemble new Regimental Aerospace Combat Groups of three Regimental Aerospace wings – 180+ fighters (the same as RCTs but with aerospace fighters?)

Then use my spies (using black boxes) to identify worlds under attack – that do not have warships – jump in and disable all clan Jump-ships – thus slowing their advance?

In the event of a warship would it be so hard to believe that an IS could issue a challenge to the warship that would include a Nuke – Thus satisfying the Clans Honour and potentially killing off the Warship?

Or use a nuke at all as we are down the rabbit hole with the Kurita Turtle bay reprisal ark?

Case 5:

“Ducks”

The “Ducks” understanding of leadership by their subordinates –to take the initiative in providing policies and actions in line with the wishes and the goals of the party hierarchy. Do the Clans change this policy at all?

Do the “Ducks” government exercise absolute centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and all opposing political and cultural expression is suppresses? If I remember correctly, even the Bears lost their right to vote later down the tack due to their new Khans’ edict?

Did the “Ducks” not have Lebensborn – a biological hereditary of children who exhibit certain traits – Was not the Clan traits that of the being a superior warrior though at a DNA level? How is this not race supremacy as only their race is are allowed to lead their military / government? Do they not separate themselves into classes of those born in the iron womb and those born naturally – does not this constitute one race over that of another politically / socially / the use of last names can only be won by true born - denying a last name to that of everyone else (thus no family history / identity imposed upon you by your overlord)?

Did the “Ducks” not have H.-Jugend – a paramilitary organisation, divided into cells, who were indoctrinated into the party way of thought – and as a paramilitary organisation were taught how to use weapons – Keep physically fit – survival in the outdoors – taught gliding (later to become pilots)etc. – and latter joined their own regiment that were there on D.Day? – how does this differ from a Sibko and how they were brought up? And how they were expected to graduate into the army? Semantics aside very little difference in the overall structure of the two.

Question how do you get a sense of unity if you destroy the family unit? Ever been to boarding school – this does wonders for the family unit? And as for creating one Clan

Have a look at the old H.-Jugen Saying – One Hiter –One Party – One Homeland ….. or should it be re-written as One Knan – One People – One Clan …..?

So maybe you need to add pre 1945 Germany to the list of 13th century Mongols, Shogunate Japan, and 20th Century China? As these elements are in both are they not? Then you don’t have to call them “Ducks” they are the Clans (but with “Ducks” philosophy / culture added to the original mix)

So why not have a large hidden Dark Caste that can strike at them when the IS Operation Serpent arrives – it opens a new dimension to the game? Or am I wrong?

Case 6:

Psi-Ops and the Clans

Historical fact that certain governments utilized psy-ops teams to destabilize countries internally – is it so hard to contemplate a society that is made up of workers who have no power over their lives and are disenfranchised from all political power might want to do something about it to make their lives better than what it currently is and for that of their children? So why not tap into this resentment and any other psychological angst a non-warrior caste person might have and use this to start a civil war?

Is it possible to break their conditioning? Or are you saying that this cannot be done?

We got one to betray the Clans and give us the Exodus Road – so why not more?

Also those within the IS – cannot those free born be seduced by how the IS people live – as they are experiencing a whole new way of life, why can we not get defectors or is this just not possible?

As for Clant stuffing up with the crops causing an epidemic due to no new medicine – this is an example of how great military leaders (with no education in economics etc) are very good at running a world – if they stuff up the people hate them – more partisans – more terrorist activities etc – what kind f world will your military unit be landing into? Vichy / Open Rebellion / Detent and separate or other …

Case 7:

Battletech 2.0

You say that a re-write is not possible, however if you had a clear banner on the front of every book “In Conjunction with Battletech 2.0” this then becomes very possible – how hard is it to keep two separate piles of books and two separate histories in your mind? Then the gamers can decide what is possible and what is not possible.

From a marketing standpoint this is very easily accomplished – you ae just rebranding to open new products to both an existing and a possible new market – as most of the old books are getting harder and harder to find – new books to existing game stores could revitalize the brand if it is done correctly.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
06/12/18 10:08 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I will touch on the real world a little to remove the idea of manifest destiny is inbred in every leader.
Today we have an emperor, kings, queens and princes/princesses, and yet none have been pushing to reclaim lands lost in war and diplomacy.
England has not tried to reclaim any of their empire that stretched across the world. So this manifest destiny that is implied in the leaders of the IS/clans/comstar is not in every one of them.
Now. Back to the semi sci fi of this.

The question of things being written in stone, makes me curious on what the materials is being used to determine how each entity is portrayed. Is there something other then the manuals, novels and such that contradicts this? After all, we are talking about dealing with billions scattered across light years of distance. Control drops dramatically as distance prevents quick responses.
Using psychology and saying this is how each leader would be, and it isn't done in the books does not work. Might be the lack of understanding the writers are the 'gods' of the game. What they say is what is done. Saying they are wrong is valid, but suggesting things can only be the way of a single point of view does sound like forcing others the follow that line of thought.
This is what I have an issue with. Bringing up different points of view are fine. That is what opinions are.

And again. Numbers help make a decision to go to war, but it is not the end all of it. The clans had far less numbers when deciding to hit the IS. They knew they were outnumbered. But they were generally superior warriors with superior weapons. As noted before, the range is why they were doing so well and having the ability to use them at range. Had to hurt the enemy when you can't reach them.
wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 10:30 PM
74.214.54.153

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
You claim it is alternate history but go off about how your ideas make more sense and the writers didn't know what they were doing and you have the solution. It can't be alt history when you want it to and a rewrite at other times. I have rebuffed your statements enough for the rewrite. I could care less if you had your own alternate history within your group, but don't push it that it makes more sense or that it should be that. That's where you will run into the wall. You have stated too often that it should be this way or that this couldn't have happened and so on. Or the writers are hacks and should know they messed up. That's not an alternate history for others to be open to. That's you trying to rewrite the game.

I even think more of us would be more understanding and positive if you framed it differently. Instead of this is what should have happened or this is wrong and my way is the only way that works, you should frame it asking if you could see it happening this way. I don't agree with the writers for everything. But I will defend them. Don't attack them head on. Try a different approach where you are seeking opinions that *could* work within what has been given, but change a couple of things and let us know what you wanted to change. Like your Capellan argument. Instead of saying the book is wrong because you don't like that McCarrons rebuilt, say let us go with that McCarron's were never able to rebuild, so they won't be in the equation. Or for this alternate history, the Inner Sphere were better prepared than what has been given. Simple wording like that takes it away from an attack on the game and open to new ideas, based off of a common understanding that things have changed and what they are changed to.

Like me, for instance, I like the Fire Mandrolls. A lot. I go into alternate timelines where they make it onto the secondary invasion force. And in my case, I got kicked around by Comstar. Bad. I am waiting to get my retribution, hopefully this week. But me and my group made up a timeline and changed stuff around so I could get those guys up to the front.

Wording makes all the difference. It changes me from being an obstinate jack **** to a semi well mannered person who will listen to ideas and isn't scary to approach.
ghostrider
06/13/18 12:48 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Ok. Case one. Where is the intel coming from to suggest they left the base weakly defended?
Other then history says so in the game? Did this get asked when the story line was being written or years afterwards?

Case 2. Wasting jumpships scouring the periphery verse using them to hit or reinforce the front lines is far different from each other. Still the lack of understanding that IS had NO intel on the clans other then what the Dragoons gave them. Well, that isn't quite true. They knew the clans had warships and units that would destroy their forces without too much effort. So lets waste the few jumpships we have in a vain attempt to find their base. And yet, when you do, other then the jumpships not reporting back, how do you know you found a base? That could be a misjump or even pirates taking the ship. And with this, how do you know they had bases, and not used mobile fleets to carry supplies? Other then it being in the past?

Case 3. Again with the assumption the IS knew what the clans had, and where they were. More then a few times they were going to strike at the clans only to realize they may no longer be on the worlds they thought they were. NO intel coming in, and black boxes were not in play on every world. The idea of leaving their troops behind enemy lines to slowly be bled to death prevented it.

Case 4. What nation isn't ready to exploit an enemy weakness, like pulling a large chunk of it's forces from your borders? To allow them to form a large group to invade your lands? Again, a lack of understanding the need to protect all planets, not just a simple few. Also, the lack of understanding Comstar was still fighting the shadow war with FC intel. They were showing agents to the clans, with the rescue that Kai Allard lead on the comstar reeducation camp. So what intel agents where there? Where were they at? Dead? Captured? Risk letting the clans get ahold of the black boxes?
ghostrider
06/13/18 01:09 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Case 5. Did the desire to make the clans look like the pirates of old really distort what was actually written in the game? Suggesting it was something else means the lack of reading what is there. I did not see where they torture prisoners for the hell of it. Military intel, which is to be expected, but not caring about if they liked the clans or not. Big difference. Now please stop with the Nazi reference as it is not in the game in the clans. CC/DC were harsh, they were worse then the clans were.
Mixing up who had what personality traits seems to be the issue here.

Case 6. So hard to contemplate a society that workers have no power over their lives? The rest of that statement doesn't get better. Just because something isn't understood, doesn't mean it isn't the way it is. At least two people in this conversation is saying we contemplate it. I don't have any training in psychology either. Understanding an enemy is something you can use. As given, the lack of information on the civilians would mean any attempts to do so would fail. Later, in the forbidden future, it became possible, but during the initial invasion it wasn't.

Case 7. Not sure if the game developers could withstand a complete overhaul, but that was discussed in a much earlier thread.
But time to shut down the suggestion this is all bad.
Do you continue to buy new books?
Have you kept the old ones?
If yes, then you continue to support the writers that are screwed up in the head, making false assumptions on a game they are making.
I would love to see the alternative game, not based on Battletech that you are making.
You do know there are non violent games that were fun.
M.U.L.E. in the old days was about basic economics and fun to play. Minecraft on peaceful is another one. Come out with something that deals with your economics training.

And lord wolf is correct. Wording is as much a solution as what is said. It is difficult to say a few things without sounding like an attack, but the psyche training should have explained that one.
Requiem
06/13/18 07:02 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Case 1.

Raiding Clan Basses

There is almost no records of garrison sizes during the Clan Invasion. The only records that comes close is….
* From the 1st Somerset Strikers (Book and Episode) – Episode 10: The Enemy of my Enemy when they encountered a star of Mechs (5) only.
* Rhonda’s Irregulars – Pg. 54, 55 Apollo 14 Aug 3051 – again 1 Star of Mechs – Though the Star Captain did mention he was part of a Trinary Alpha and it was also mentioned that his unit was composed of older warriors or those who had simply tested out of more prestigious positions.
Both on the ground – thus indicating a garrison of some sort is in effect.
So these are the only two I could find, therefore it is up to the purview of the game-master to decide the size of the opposing Clan forces.

Again I ask what size would the garrison be if the Jade Falcon’s entered the IS with – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships?

Most would be Solhama?
As for a basic garrison size 15 – 30 – 45 Old Mechs / Omnis would there even be any elemental or aerospace support?
Would they leave behind a Dropship which has the internal capabilities to repair ‘Mechs? or
Would they just dump the techies there with a modicum of space parts / ammunition?

So what would you leave behind in each world as a minimum?

Case 2.

Reconnaissance / Attack force into the periphery –

How do you know they had bases, and not used mobile fleets to carry supplies?

You don’t this is why you send them out there to find out – this is one of the reasons you establish forces such as the Seals, Delta Force, SAS etc – they are given the high risk jobs.

This is why you had PBYs during the WWII pacific campaign.

Though if you wanted information before you sent them into the periphery – you must get it from the enemy – raid their data cores – captured radio traffic – capture and interrogate their personnel – gather information regarding their supply runs (capture resupply dropships and their personnel on the ground or in space when they are not guarded); Clan re-education camps (as per 1st Somerset Strikers Book and Epidodes) ex-periphery pirates etc. Then give all this and the people to your military intelligence team who then make a decision and you go from there. (Remember The Battle of Midway came from a guess!).

Though also consider, The Periphery Book No. 1692 – Pg. 90, “The Draconis Combine have established several bases beyond its borders from which to launch further exploration missions into the deep periphery …..”

No great gains in war were made by being a lamb – only the lion achieves advancement.

So no during the initial invasion you could be able to make accurate assumptions and then act on them accordingly.

Again you could very easily set up a communication chain within the Black Boxes range to report back to home with your findings.

So if you don’t want to go pirating, don’t more booty for me, and more experience and fun for my gamers who go through this game arc!

Case 3.

Nukes –

Really …. So your saying that that there is no way to predict the clans advance along a broad front when they are going from one world to the next and moving in a straight line towards Terra (Info. Provided by Wolf’s Dragoons)? I think by the second wave it is becoming a bit predictable.

As to what they had … the spy / the secret reconnaissance base hidden on the moon with no electronic traffic just a great camera / the spy satellite / the interrogated clans man / capture a clan Dropship Crew or even a Jumpship – there is a myriad ways of finding out the information you want it just requires the will to get it – assign a team and run it, then see what you can do / get!.

You still didn’t reply to my question? As a samurai how would Lord Kurita regain his loss of face and honour, and in front of all of his generals, from the destruction of Turtle Bay by a Smoke Jaguar Warship? Kamikaze and nukes? Or what would you consider the best way to regain his honour?

Case 4.

Mass Aerospace Assaults –

So in fear of other nations you remain the lamb and don’t take the risk ….. OK …. do that but as a lion I will take the calculated risk and assign my forces to a re-emerged SLDF and attack.

Again with the no intel … sorry but yes intel is available (refer above)

Black boxes may not be on every world 3050 – however, post year of peace – you can bet they would be on every word along the strike zone in front of the Clans Advance toward Terra and also with every Elite RCT and the new RACT units to distribute information and orders as required.

As for commando troops left behind … re-read about SAS Commando activities during WWII …. And French partisan activates during WWII …. This is one of their specialities …. And yes they can bleed the clan forces despite all doubters out there saying they can’t!.

Case 5.

Found it!
Book – The Clans Warriors of Kerensky No. 1709 Pg. 12 – Please explain ….
- the use of “The Coursing” and “Thamzing”
- “Nicholas Kerensky would do anything to ensure his new society’s survival. Brutal situations called for brutal measures. The individual – at least, the non-military individual – would be far less important than the clan”.
- “The sheer brutality of the postliberation months prompted some within the Clans to revise their opinions of Nicholas. While they agreed that the warlord should be punished, torture and degradation went against everything they stood for. They feared Nicholas would become another Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse-tung or Stefan Amaris ….”
- “Nicholas feared )probably correctly) that his grip on the Clans was slipping, and flexed his muscles as ilkhan against the main opposition to his authority: Clan Wolverine.”
And Pg. 9-10-11
- “… remodel society by removing cultural bias … based on merit and ability rather than parentage. It is ironic that his descendants revised his intentions, espousing the superiority of select bloodlines”.
- “Nicholas created the ultimate meritocracy … declaring … If there is no unity, nothing can be achieved”
- “Nicholas Kerensky’s most brutal act … destruction of family units … encouraging fostering …”
- (Though in my opinion the most brutal act was to strip every-one of their ancestral history …. An understanding of where they came from except for the warriors …. That of their family name … think about this .. we have now entered 1984, Brazil, Clockwork Orange, Faring-height 451 and now the Hand Maids Tale – a real dystopian society)
- All of this for … “in the hope that trueborn and freeborn would form a harmonious society with no divisions”.
What eventuated though with the emergence of the Clan eugenics program 2819 and then on …
Book 1st Somerset Strikers Pg. 43 note this was written August 13, 3050 “…. What I have seen of the Clans … proves that their entire society is inimical to all the values and traditions that we hold dear. They have no concept of freedom, individuality, or self-determination. They classify people …..with the most stratified and class-bound societies. The Clans divide people into five castes: warrior, scientist, merchant, technician, and labourer. Each caste is ranked according to its value to society, as the Clans understand value, placing the warrior caste at the top of the ladder and descending in order to the labourer caste. Though this system appears to have the virtue of assigning everyone a definite niche in life, in practice it devalues everyone outside the warrior caste. ….. the value of each caste is measured solely by the worth of its function to the warriors. The labourers, who attend to the day-to-day running of society, are regarded as little better than livestock …. The Jade Falcons believe that anyone born or placed into a given caste is by nature suited only to that caste and cannot possibly function anywhere else. ….. Such rigid thinking, with no concessions to individual wants and needs make a mockery of the ideal of freedom held up by the ancient Star League ….”

Case 6.

Psi-Ops and the Clans

You can bet a labourer, who is treated little better than livestock, is susceptible to deserting if they can get away …. Or given the chance what else could they be susceptible to doing if you use psychology on them ….. brain-washing / indoctrinating comes to mind …. Then chaos!

There are so many things you could use here with psi-ops teams ... on newly acquired Clan held worlds ...

Case 7.

Battletech 2.0

If not a completely new thread then how about a new book(s) entitled Alternate Universes – they could then troll the forums for interesting topics and use them as “alternate universes” that game-masters could draw upon for inspiration – as examples of how to modify the one and only into something that the ‘house-rules gamers” could use and develop for their own slant on the IS … thus giving the gamers more freedom to explore “their” IS.

You could repackage this with a new starter box – with cardboard mechs from all the technical updates and allow them to put them in when ever and where ever they see fit – the rules could also include some of the more unique variations on situations throughout the IS – Amaris – 1st to 4th SW, Clan, Post Clan, CW, Jihad Operation Bulldog & Serpent - use of poison gas on CC words or even clan held worlds or the use of nukes during any time frame and their possible repercussions even as my mines – i.e. some of those Alt. Histories that I have espoused as the way to go , thus giving people like me who cannot stand some of the history to invent their own IS and play these alternate wars as we see fit …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (06/13/18 07:18 AM)
ghostrider
06/13/18 11:12 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Case 1. That is a good question, I have no idea the count. Knowing the arrogance of that particular clan, a star of mechs with solhama infantry. If I know right, the stats given to the clans invasion forces, did not include the garrison forces. Almost all garrison forces would not have omnis in them, as it is a waste for most clans to even think of it.
Though I do expect it would be larger on the more important worlds. As for repairs, and mobile repair platform should be sufficient.

Case 2. On a habitable world, leaving people in areas is easy. What you are talking about is leaving people out in the periphery that may never be picked up and returned to their unit. Some worlds could well have had no breathable atmosphere, as the clans did have environmental suits and even the elemental suits to do the labor of moving supplies. Not at likely as using worlds that you could atleast breath on, but breathing masks is easier to cheaper to hand out then the suits. So locations go completely against IS thinking. And with good reason. A single jumpship having problems dies in them. As each clan had their own route in and out of the IS, you could find one base. But whos?

Case 3. Nukes. How many nukes does the clans have and use? That was completely unknown when the invasion happens. Instead of using 1st war tactics, and finding out they had them as well, it is best to find out if you can survive without them.
Side note. Given the radiations in space, all space craft should have some shielding. I doubt it would be enough, but there are pulsars that are suspected of sending out streams of particles that some scientists suggest could kill life on worlds light years away.
ghostrider
06/13/18 11:36 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Case 4 is interesting. Why wouldn't you have your factories churning out the maximum fighters they can in the first place? You know they will be needed, especially in upcoming offenses to establish the Star League, as your goal was stated. Even just having the extra protection for the space based factories and such, and not just jumpships and warships. Endosteel factories were at risk. With this, you would have all assigned as soon as you could get them there.

Case 5. Now 250+ years later, those very ideas were removed from most people living in the clans. The dark caste was the boogie man of the clans, but not enough is offered to suggest they were any better. With that, the implied view, lack of food, housing, places to hide, suggested it was even harder to live like that then being assigned a job for life. By our standards, that is horrible. But the standards of living away from any help, having to make it on your own, especially millions of people needed food and such, and alls people wanted was power to command others suffer, the brutal means was required. Like it or not, all work together, or all die screws up how people do things. Now. The fact they survived and thrived says some methods worked. The clan is all. I guess a good example may well be a cult. Nothing you say to the masses will affect them. A small few are looking to get out, but no where near enough to start a revolt.

Case 6, Newly acquired worlds would have populations of IS people ready to bolt. Any clan people would think it all propaganda, as they would suspect the dezgra IS to say anything. And where are you getting that all clans treat their people little better then livestock? There are instances of mistreatment, but the IS has more especially newly taken worlds in all the succession wars. As the CC was gutted, there were more then a few instances of abuse there. So bad, Melisa ordered the FS forces out of the Terran March, and replaced them with LC forces, even risking issues waiting for some garrisons to even be there. The CC/DC has more incidences in their history.

Case 7. Feel free to start a "WHAT IF" board and see how many people come visit the website. The problem with making boxed sets and such is getting the authorization to even attempt to do so. It would be easier to start your own game. Unless you could swing enough money to the owners of the game. Look at the Crossroads alternative. They have what seems to be a thriving community. Retry might be able to help you some with it.
Who knows. Maybe you could actually convince the owners to set this up and milk more out of the cash cow they have created. I understand the need to pay bills and such, but some of their efforts seem more to just throw something together and put it out there.
ghostrider
06/13/18 11:44 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
All this weaponry would be for naught if the Mjolnir were not able to protect itself, and designers ensured that she is the most heavily armored vessel operated by the Great Houses and is surpassed only by Clan Ghost Bear's Leviathan II. A staggering 3500 tons of Ferro-Carbide armor cover the Mjolnir's frame and has proven its worth in the Jihad as the LAS Fylgia survived combat over Alarion, where it slipped its moorings, and escaped Blakist assaults over Skye where it was struck by a nuclear warhead along with conventional fire, and again over Tharkad as the LAAF finally managed to free their capital.[3]
I guess this answers the question on if ships could survive the radiation of a nuclear blast.
It is possible only warships have enough to survive, but this may close the nuke debate.
Requiem
06/13/18 05:40 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Sorry, no it will not end the debate

So, Where did you find this in the wiki?

Not all nukes are the same – so what type of nuke and what was its yield as a 1MT and a 100MT warhead are two completely different animals in magnitude.

Case in point what is the melting point of Ferro-Carbide armour? As about 85% of the energy released is in thermal energy.

Quote: Depending on the yield and type of the weapon, the external temperature of the fireball is about the same as that of the Sun, some 6,000° C (5,778 K).
The internal temperature can vary between 10,000,000 and 150,000,000° C.
Thierry Etienne Joseph Rotty, studied at University of Antwerp

Refer: https://www.quora.com/How-much-heat-is-generated-in-a-nuclear-and-a-hydrogen-bomb-blast

Therefore a direct hit by a 50MT Tsar - adios muchachos!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem
06/13/18 06:04 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Under the Sarna Wiki page - Fylgia

The Fylgia was launched in April 3069 by Admiral Helena Danvers under duress. The Word of Blake attacked Alarion using nuclear and biological weapons. The vessel escaped capture by the Blakists but did not engage them.[1][2]

The Fylgia surprised the Blakists when they attempted to assault Skye in October 3069. Despite the use of nuclear weapons, Lyran naval forces were victorious.[3][4

The Blakists used a nuclear devices however reading this it could appear they were not used on the Warship – unfortunately I do not have the Battletech book re Jihad 3069 can someone dig it out and see if there is any further info re this battle?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
CrayModerator
06/13/18 07:47 PM
97.101.136.19

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
I guess this answers the question on if ships could survive the radiation of a nuclear blast.



Well, yeah, the rules make that clear. Per Interstellar Operations (p. 170), JHS...3072?, and Liberation of Terra, capital weapon damage from a nuke on a typical hit is 1 capital point (0.5 kilotons), 10 points (5 kilotons), 100 points (50 kilotons), and 1000 points (500 kilotons). However, on a critical hit, 10 times that damage is delivered directly to the WarShip's structural integrity.

Basically, most space-based nuclear attacks, which tend to use smaller warheads (0.5 to 50 kilotons), are only armor-scorching fireballs that many WarShips can shrug off. It's when you get a solid contact detonation that most of a nuke's energy can be transferred into the WarShip. Then even a 5-kiloton weapon becomes a shipkiller (100 capital points straight to the SI.)

During the Jihad, no one fielded large warheads in space-to-space combat. They were all trying the Davy Crockett-type peewees with the thought that NUKULAR WEAPONS KILLZ ALL. That's not the case - standard capital weapons already deliver energies comparable to small nukes, hence their utility in orbital bombardment, and hence WarShip armor can shrug off modest nukes with no more damage than rapid loading of the crew's Maximum Absorbency Garments.

PS: Moderator comment. Posts are flying fast and furious in this thread. Perhaps everyone might want to step back and talk about something else for a while, like the new BT video game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
06/13/18 09:48 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The idea of nuclear radiation is the issue with this, not so much the damage to the ship.
Did those inside get radiation poisoning or die outright from the radiation?
Are all ships protected from the radiation of a nuke blast?
The conversation does have the question of if you can nuke the jump points and cause them to be useless as radiation would flood the entire area. The solar winds may eventually clear them out, but how long may be another question here.

As for the new game, a lack of funds prevents me from even thinking about it at this time. Plus that is another thread. It exists, but from the looks of it, others haven't gotten the game or just haven't posted about it.
Now quit trying to thread jack.
CrayModerator
06/14/18 05:48 AM
97.101.136.19

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
The idea of nuclear radiation is the issue with this, not so much the damage to the ship.
Did those inside get radiation poisoning or die outright from the radiation?



The total effects of nukes are addressed in the rules, including radiation. Radiation is a factor for ground troops like infantry, but not for WarShips.

Quote:
Are all ships protected from the radiation of a nuke blast?



If they have enough armor, then yes.

Quote:
The conversation does have the question of if you can nuke the jump points and cause them to be useless as radiation would flood the entire area. The solar winds may eventually clear them out, but how long may be another question here.



At a jump point, which has nothing to hold onto to the radiation unlike the soil and air of a planet, BT's modern, fission-less fusion weapons will produce x-rays that disperse at light speed, neutrons that disperse at light speed, and a little of radioactive bomb plasma that's dispersing really fast.

There's nothing like the irradiated soil of a ground burst to really poison the area and BT spacecraft are radiation resistant, as discussed in the nuke rules.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Requiem
06/14/18 10:00 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Question – During the Clan Invasion Each Clan was expected to garrison their captured territory to the best of their ability? Correct

Now Let Us First Consider the Jade Falcons

They entered the Inner Sphere with the following Complement
‘Mechs 972
Elementals 2,235
Fighters 584
Dropships 140

If we assume that …..
No further Supply runs were made into the IS and this amount remained constant
Each Periphery Garrison consisted of 1 Star Mechs and 1 Star Infantry
Twycross we know had …
‘Mechs 115
Elementals 150
Fighters 30
And Assume Dropships at 5
We then assume that they never suffered any battle losses what-so-ever during the Clan invasion

If we assume that every other planet had a standard garrison of
1 Supernova + 1 Star Fighter + 1 Dropship
The remaining forces available to the Jade Falcons would be
‘Mech 387
Elemental 955
Fighter 334
Dropship 85

However if we change this to …
Trinary Mech + Binary Infantry + Binary Fighter + 1 Dropship
The remaining forces available to the Jade Falcons would be
‘Mech 167
Elemental negative ( 145 )
Fighter 104
Dropship 85

We can therefore conclude from this is that this would mean that the majority of worlds would have a very small garrison force and a single world would have a concentration of forces, such as a hub and spoke arrangements – then this concentrated of forces would then be used as a rapid response attack force if any world within their area stepped out of line?

However, are we not back to concentrated weakness now?

We have only a small number of worlds that actually have a serious Clan Army presence

Thus all the small units are very susceptible to commando snatch and grab missions as they clearly do not have enough forces to adequately garrison all their newly captured worlds

This just leaves what to do with those worlds with a large concentration of Clan forces

I would assume that they would be no more than a Cluster / Galaxy each – though making them a Galaxy would reduce the number of worlds who have a serious military presence to a dangerous level. I would therefore assume most of the larger garrisons therefore would be Cluster level
Thus we are talking about a garrison
‘Mechs 65
Elementals 75
Aerospace 30
Dropships 3-5

We can also assume that they would also need to keep control by having their warships moving from one system to the next with no real pattern to ensure the IS does not get adventurous and maybe one or more Cluster(s) permanently assigned to their Dropships / Jumpships also roving their newly acquired space as a rapid reactionary force.

They would also need to get more personnel into the IS from Clan Space ASAP to reinforce their existing forces otherwise they will find themselves in trouble.

Therefore the Primary issue for the IS is
1. Warships – Roving Cluster Units
2. Large Garrison worlds
3. Incoming reinforcements from Clan Space

Therefore it is critical that the IS has a weapon system that can deal with their Warships / Jumpships
For once you get rid of them you can deal with the rest …

Thus the IS requires pocket warships ASAP to deal with these

This again shows the need to remove Clan Warships and Jumpships 1st

Without pocket warships the only substitute is Regimental Aerospace Combat Groups (120 to 180 Fighters) with a weapon system that can deal with them.

If you cannot use nukes then what weapon system, that can be attached to fighter / dropship, can be used to destroy a warship?

Strategies anyone?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
06/14/18 12:07 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The clans concentrated weakness did suffer some, but not to the extent of Alessandro. Since they were foolish to think the IS would follow their trials, or never rise up to strike back, they thought it was well to do this.
Not sure but I believe the trials allows for waiting for returning forces or adding some in reserve, making clan worlds that much easier to 'defend'. By that, not having to have such a large standing garrison. I know they do allow some time frame for some of them. Not sure about possessions.

Ok. I believe the part of those like Comstar and just normal collaborators is missing from the garrison thoughts. With leaving some government officials in office, Crays explanation of why alot of worlds just acted like it was a normal change of hands. With them thinking they will be freed in a few months, following some new rules might be a pain, but it won't last. This would be during the initial invasion. For some, having a strong force to deal with criminals, including the government itself, was something the would cheer on. I think there were two examples of that. Can't remember the names right now. I want to say Kimball was one of them.

Crays post about nukes against warships comes to mind (Scroll up). It seems capital missiles do more damage unless a crit is made. Normal capital weapons seem to deal as much damage as well.

Dropships with anti capital weapons would be the quicker way to get them on the field, but we know there would not be enough of them to deal with destroying most warships quick enough to survive the battle.

Some sort of capital missile converted over so fighters could 'drop' them to hit a target should be a valid weapon, though not sure of the rules on this.
Just looked at this. The capital missiles are just to heavy for this idea. Unless a smaller version of them is made, that does capital damage, then the nukes may well be the only thing for a fighter.


Edited by ghostrider (06/14/18 12:12 PM)
Requiem
06/14/18 09:45 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
When talking ship killers for the IS we know the following … to kill a warship requires the use of capital missiles … yes

…. And we also know that the anti-ship capital scale weapon systems can only fit on a Dropship sized Platform or pocket warship ie. the Barracuda Missile

Baracuda - Damage 2 Capital 20 Standard – Mass 100 tons – Range S 1-20 M 21-30 L 31-40 E 41-50

…. We also know that Samarkand, Tharkad, Commonweath, Essex Class Warships were all armed with nuclear-tipped anti-ship missiles.

The Alamo for example is a 5 Kiloton nuclear missile which can be carried by aerospace fighters and used in space or in an atmosphere to attack air and ground targets

A fifty ton aerospace fighter can carry 1 and a one hundred ton aerospace fighter can carry 2

Is there is a serious need for an aerospace fighter capable Capital Missile …. That is also not nuclear tipped

How about this then …. (Not the FC arrow IV capital missile or the Blakists Parana etc.)

A new Parana anti-ship capital missile – each missile weighs ? tons and may only be mounted on an aerospace unit; each missile takes up 5 bomb slots. They may be used only Space maps and cannot cross the Atmospheric/Space divide. This Parana Missile may be fired only at Dropships, Jumpships and Warships.

Paranah – Damage 1 Capital 5 Standard – Mass ? tons – Range S 1-5 M 6-10 L 11-15 E 16-20

This then rebalances the fighters with that of a Warship

Your thoughts? Reduce the Range?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
06/14/18 09:59 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The idea is solid. The range may be ok as they should be smaller, less fuel on a fighter then the larger ones. Even a very short range with a large payload, like a single missile/torpedo set up.

I wonder how much the capital missiles are like lrms?
Less damage because of longer ranges?
Maybe make an 'srm' version of them, doing more damage, but shorter range.
But I guess it is the same thing, just packaged a little different.

Though I don't see why you couldn't make a light version with the shorter ranges. They did it with Gauss rifles, lrm/mrm/srms, lasers and come out with ppcs. Why not lighten the weights for several capital ship weapons. Less damage and range, but can be used on lighter, faster ships, even reducing it down to fighters, or dedicated anti warship units.
NL 10 or something like that.
Requiem
06/17/18 07:18 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
A capital missile’s fundamental capabilities,

When an aerospace fighter that is armed with a capital missile, the aim of the fighter, and by extension that of its pilot, is to get the missile on target so that once fired it would guarantee a strike against the warship, thus penetrating the warship’s anti-aerospace and anti-missile screen.

To do this the missile must be at a very high velocity.

As the missile is designed to “take on” and damage a warship it must also have high penetration and explosive properties – maximising the damage to the warship.

Thus we must consider range – with a velocity that can penetrate the screen protecting the warship – the range of the missile must be greater than that of the anti-aerospace fighter screen (thus protecting the fighter) – therefore in all probability an extreme range.

The converse must also be true – if the velocity is lower than it should – the fighter must get the missile through the screen and onto the target – therefore a medium /short range must be considered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
06/17/18 04:46 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Why bother with fighters then? Other then the capital missiles, all of their weapons would have to get inside the anti fighter weapons. Now if you are making pure bombers that fire the capital missiles then run, this would be more ideal.

And that is an issue with the game. Missiles track, where rockets are a fire on a straight line. So a target lock with a missile should allow it to turn if it needs to be corrected.
Yeah, the bs of tracking in the game stops this. Ecm would affect it.

And the suggestion was to lower the amount of fuel in a new missile so you would have to be closer, but it would weigh less, or carry more explosives. Speed was not mentioned in the last post.

Nothing about making smaller NL? Something that a fighter might be able to use? Even a single point would help. Might shut down the fighter after firing it, which would be a major down side. But that depends on the heat output of such a weapon.
Requiem
06/17/18 09:29 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply

QUOTE: “Why bother with fighters then?”
Answer, time, numbers/manpower, money and production ….

How long does the IS have when they are being attacked by the Clans before they collapse? They have an existing means of transporting a new missile system – The Fighter. The IS does not have time to engineer a new means of transporting a new weapon to the enemy.

The IS has how many aerospace fighters that could be equipped with new weapons? – that do not need to be produced (thus do not divert important resources and people away from other important weapon projects) and you do not have to retrain to deliver the weapon … you have a vast amount of fighters, they are there, and they are trained …. use them….
Money, how much would it cost to create a new delivery system and the weapon at the same time, no it would be more cost effective to just create the weapon from an economic point of view …

Production, if you are just producing one item, in this case the missile, the output would be higher than that of producing the missile and the delivery system …

Time (again) when producing only the missile, wold it not be quicker to get the weapon to the front lines thus utilizing it against the enemy quicker?

Perhaps after the 15 year truce you could design and manufacture bomber that could carry larger capital missiles …. But in the early years of the invasion the need was great for an anti-warship weapon was high, thus it makes sense that a missile was required by all the militaries ASAP (Unless you want to go down the track of the 5MT Alamo that is).

QUOTE: “Speed was not mentioned in the last post”.

“To do this the missile must be at a very high ‘velocity’.”

Smaller NL? Such as ….. can you provide an example / explain further?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
06/17/18 10:33 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
As I don't know if the missile can be dropped form the ordinance pylons or not. Given in space, there is no friction for the rockets to push against, it would take time for it to accelerate to speed. I would assume part of the launchers weight it dealing with the thrust as well as possible a catapult system to shoot the missile out.

Now the anti fighter area of warships. You want to fire missiles where the warship can not fire back. Yet want to put a missile on the fighter that can outrange it. It may not be possible. Unless an answer is given to the ability to drop fire the missile the launchers are just too heavy to have on fighters. A shorter ranged missile may be an alternative, but you would have to get in closer. So there lies the issue.

With the fighters in existence, they may not be able to carry the necessary equipment require to target and fire the missile.
So it may be needed to design a delivery craft to do so. Still faster then making pocket warships as well as normal ones.

The speed statement was my last post, not yours. And the missile only has to go fast then the warship. The normal missiles for ground combat can do it and still hit the target, and they are probably less likely to track the target then capital missiles.

The NL being shrunk was not explained well. I reread the post and put it with making lighter missiles.
The Sub capital system put on one of the recent designs, came to mind, but it is too heavy, and produces too much heat to be useful on a fighter. I don't see why they couldn't come out with a smaller until in the NL line that might fit even just the 100 ton fighter and still hurt warships.
Then the idea of using a drop shuttle comes to mind. 200 tons. Basically gut most of it, and put in the weapons system with enough scrubbers to keep the crew alive on patrols.

Additional note. The missile system should have been thought of earlier, when the IS started producing warships, as you can not build fast enough to secure your entire border. The enemy has an advantage of local numbers. They can come in with what ever, and you have only what you have to defend with.


Edited by ghostrider (06/17/18 10:36 PM)
Requiem
06/18/18 04:41 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The information below is also include under the Aerospace section within the forum:-

I find this very interesting that the Sarna.net wiki includes the following two pages

First, Essay: SLDF Naval Doctrine

Nuke Proofing SLDF Style

The ships of the SLDF are often maligned as the worst ships ever made, their primary advantage being size. This may be so. I certainly think their roles were never thought out. Having said that an analysis of these ships design and possible use in a nuclear environment offer some disturbing insights which may cause us to rethink their use and utility.

Environment

Let’s start with a basic understanding of nuclear naval combat. Space borne nukes can be delivered in three ways.

Carried in a ship
Anti Ship Alamo via aerospace fighter
Anti Ship Santa Anna via capital missile

Second, Anti-Ship Missile

The Anti-Ship Missile (AS) was an Arrow IV variant developed by the Federated Suns. Development of this missile began in 3069, spurred on by the Blakist blockade of New Avalon, with limited production started in 3071. Though based on the Arrow system, the ASM incorporates Tandem-Charge Warhead technology and is fitted with powerful booster engines to give it greater velocity. Armor penetration is achieved as much through kinetic energy as the dual warhead, and while devastating against large vessels the increased speeds and limited guidance system means the weapon has a harder time hitting fast, agile targets.

Game Rules

ASM Missiles weighs 2 tons and may only be mounted on aerospace units; each missile takes up 6 bomb slots. They may be only be fired at Altitude Level 3 or higher on the Low Altitude map, as well as the Space map. The weapon suffers to-hit modifiers when fired at aerospace targets less than 500 tons or ground targets 100 tons or less.

So what are the Capital Missiles between that of the SLDF and 3069 – or must we consider these to be a further example of lost technology that not even ComStar retained?

What about the use of Capital Missiles upon Dropships?

Were Capital Missiles included on the Helm memory Core?

So game designers where are my missiles at 3025 and 3050? 3025 – Anti-Dropship; 3050- now Anti-Warship

Why, if we did have the Alamo missile even at 3025, why was there not a conventional warhead initially used as an anti-dropship then with the appearance of the Clans an anti-warship?

Can anyone please explain for I am at a loss?

Was it just not included in the initial release – however overtime we look back and say ooops – could we not just add them back now, please?

Thus another reason why the Clan Invasion onwards needs a serious re-write?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
06/18/18 12:22 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The clan invasion onward?
From the league onward.
Changing how infantry takes damage is a big changer, as more damage would have been done to mechs in cities and such. Even those worlds where they say infantry protected it, would have lasted far longer then they did, changing the outcome of more then a few battles. And the domino effect comes into play.
Example. Infantry destroys the mechs that were sent to destroy an ammo depot. With is still working, the enemy does not run out, meaning the battle the lost from a lack of ammo doesn't happen. And it snowballs.

The novels, and even scenario pacts suggested fusion engines explode. It was brought up that they did not in the entire history of the game.
With vehicles needing shielding, the question is why? They original reason was the radiation that was put out by the engines, which changed during the rules updates.
Same with only one hit destroys the vehicle, yet only increases heat output in mechs. For most, this will cripple a tank, but there are some that have enough sinks to continue a limited firing pattern. The Shreck ppc carrier comes to mind.

And as said before. All these mechs made in the League time and none of them except the mackie was ever used in 3025, with the Goliath being the first that I now of. Never in any of the scenarios or books before the 3025 era, and only the Dragoons/Irregulars, knew about them with Comstar being the only IS entity that did.

Which also leads to the question of why the HPG's never seen upgrades? WOB used jumpships with ranges further then normal, so they had the information to send data alot further then what they did. Another hole in the game. And sadly, it seems the HPGs are the same now as they were in League times.
Requiem
06/18/18 06:37 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Why the shift from Capital Missiles and aerospace fighters?

QUOTE: “Example. Infantry destroys the mechs that were sent to destroy an ammo depot. With is still working, the enemy does not run out, meaning the battle the lost from a lack of ammo doesn't happen. And it snowballs.”

Would not a more accurate portrayal be, The Infantry stand guard protecting their ammo dump. Unbeknown to them a Jump-ship slips into a pirate point releasing its drop-ships slowly edging closer to the planet when they release their aerospace assets. As daggers these craft slip through the space / atmosphere border as they speed towards the target, then opening the bomb bay doors they release their ordinance …unknown until all hell breaks around them the ammo dump explodes in multiple waves of devastation as the infantry find themselves caught in a violent firestorm of death and destruction ……as the aerospace craft leave unmolested and triumphant.

Fusion engines? … was this posted in the wrong spot?

QUOTE: “the question of why the HPG's never seen upgrades?”

We are talking about Comstar …. The same Comstar that up to a certain point wanted humanity to fail who also wanted no technological development what so ever … and even went to the exteme of murdering scientists throughout the IS ….

Post this time (reformation) new HPG’s were built … Katherine’s direct line between New Avalon and Tharkad comes to mind ….

Though in all probability if the Great House’s wanted their HPGs updated they would have to pay for it not Comstar …. So why pay for an upgrade when what we have is working so well ….ie. normal polies making future decisions

Suggest you have a look at HPGs during the Jihad times and their ranges ….. go to wiki and put in Super-HPGs

So now back to the lack capitol Missiles and bomber craft ....the complete lack there of ... why Arrow IV 'Mech took no time at all to be created but Arrow IV aerospace took forever ..... what / why?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem
07/02/18 04:08 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
First,

We all understand the principles of a Clan Batchall,

And as per The Clans Warriors of Kerensky, p. 18, ….. the Clans largely dismissed the combat abilities of the Inner Sphere militaries, and chose to send only four of the seventeen Clans to attack the Successor States…. The bidding and Trials to determine the participants were fierce…

After the Batchall has been completed adding reinforcements is seen as …. ‘reduced’ honour / dishonourable?

We know the goal was to reach Terra and conquer it first to become the ilClan – the one clan to rule them all in perpetuity …. Therefore,

Question – when each Clan thus adds reinforcement from the home worlds why was the political ramifications of this never discussed?

(ie. when Clan Smoke Jaguar called for reinforcements from the home world they had violated their winning bid to be in the invasion corridor …. Or am I wrong? – the size of their attack force was to remain constant throughout the entire invasion and no new units would be allowed?)

Because it is quite clear, as discussed previously that they did not have enough forces to garrison all their worlds captured and at the same time persecute the war to reach Terra First.

As by Tukayyid it is quite clear they had extended their front line beyond their ability to prosecute the war – their rear supply lines were becoming grossly over-extended ….

Question – what if any could these have been?

Secondly,

Post Tukayyid …. Inner Sphere forces have 15 years before the resumption of the Clan war … thus we have entered a 15 year rearmament phase … correct?

In a rearmament phase government / military / industry / civilians all work together with one goal ….

To build a bigger better (meaner) military ….

Question: Where is the evidence that new anti-clan ‘Mech units were being formed for this sole purpose … ie. New RCTs with New more advanced Mechs and weapons systems and the training to combat a new offensive in 15 years?

The military would want to begin this asap and build upon them one after the next so that the maximum resources are available to establish the maximum amount of new RCTs …. Correct?

So where is the evidence of this build up in new ‘Mech / aerospace regiments?

Or are we to assume that his was an …. Oops moment again?

Your thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (07/02/18 04:47 AM)
ghostrider
07/02/18 12:02 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Again, the lack of understanding shows in the questions.
Garrison forces are not part of the original bid. They could have 200,000 mechs brought in, but would stick to the original bid as close as they can for attacking purposes. Defense is different. Without a batchall and trial, the limiting of forces is not done.
And that is also not saying the clans have not broken the bids either. They have. Generally, they suffer from something like a loss of face, to even being reassigned to a solamha unit, to worse.
Now it needs to be said that having your reinforcements with you, so you can keep the numbers there when you suffer losses would be a smart thing. Using those troops outside the bid would violate their own trial rules.

The reinforcement clans would be a little less prestigious then the invading clans, but a hell of a lot more pride then being stuck on the home worlds. So would you rather be home safe? Or being ready to hit the front lines when needed. And this could well go towards having the garrison units close by for dealing with counter attacks. The reinforcement clans may well have been sent to deal with it. I have not seen this printed anywheres, but then there are a lot of implied things in the game.

As for bases and supply chains, you need to talk with those that developed the game. It is known, clan wolf started making forward depots during their run thru the FRR. It is stated as being done so. This upset the other khans, as it put their tech within striking distance of IS counterstrikes. Until you have their numbers on what was where and how much, there can be no real answer to this. And from what I know, not many of those people come here on a regular basis.

Rearmament runs counter to the new construction statement in an earlier posting. The IS only uses salvage to rebuild with, not new materials.
ghostrider
07/02/18 12:18 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The shift from capital missiles to fighters should never have relied on the capital missiles to begin with. Except when jumping into another sphere. You pop into a jump point and see warships there. You aren't going to have time to undock the dropships and get fighters in the air before the warships start attacking. Though energy weapons is more preferred for the ability to avoid running out of ammo. Just like ground based combat. The range is the only real reason for using the missiles.
And the suggestion was to basically arm shuttles and such with explosives and send them in, instead of using the fighters to deliver the loads.

The HPG statement shows assumption of Comstar doing the upgrading. Why not the clans?
It would be in their best interest that during the invasion, they have HPGs that reach a longer range, so you don't need a station every 30 light years or so. They upgraded most everything else, why not them?
So with a single jump ever week, you would need about 52 HPG stations along the supply trail to contact homeworlds. And that would be EACH clan. Not one for the whole invasion force. Suggesting they avoid the waste and use one set is basically giving the enemy the ability to destroy you, as your information is in their hands.

The fusion engines statement, according to the context of the statement, was part of issues that changed how the game was perceived by others. A fusion engine exploding took out other units, such as grabbing an enemy mech as blowing the engine, when the mech doing so had no ammo.

The lack of bombers goes to the basis of the game itself. Few want to play fighter pilots, as well as tank crews and such. Most want to play mech warriors, and mechs were the main thing everyone wanted. So making the mech designs is the priority. Fighters and vehicles die to easily with the odd crits. Atmospheric flights being the worst of them.
Would/should they have done something with making them? You bet. But bombing with a fighter against ground targets was screwed up, so now it just isn't worth it. Warships don't seem to be the thing the developers wanted to go with, but the fact you can have armed dropships with fighters and such guarding jump points, shown they needed a way to deal with it, without changing the rules there. Doing so would have really got most asking what where they thinking.
Requiem
07/02/18 09:18 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Where is it written – in which Book, page no, quote – where it specifically states that garrison forces are not included in the bidding and trials and you can add additional forces for this specific purpose of garrison forces?

Cray, do you know if it is written anywhere – that garrison forces can be added at any time to a Clans initial bid of conquering the IS? As I read it it is just like infantry – you attack, you capture (overcome), and you hold – nothing was said about being relieved form additional garrison forces from the Clans Home Worlds except by Nova Cat and Viper. The bid was for all of your forces to get from Periphery to Terra and holding with those forces only … or did I miss something somewhere?

Secondly where is written that IS forces are only allowed Salvage – what about all the technical manuals / novels which include newly designed and manufactured mechs?

Thus we can only say the writers decided that no new RCTs were to be formed in the IS after the Clan Invasion … no military has ever, ever done this when in this situation, they always create new units building their available forces up to be able to fight the enemy as their available size was not strong enough in the initial engagement!!!! …. Can we say a big Oops again!!!!

As for capitol missiles – Warships were and are the biggest menace on the battlefield – so how do you destroy them without resulting to a 5KT Nuke that will turn them into a mass of evaporated metal and scraps floating through space? (look again at the thermal temperature of a nuke it is greater than the sun so how do you survive that?)

With Warships removed you can retaliate – recapture worlds etc

Hamstringing the IS is a great way to becoming disillusioned and quit playing the game! – so again I ask why they decreased the size of FC from 280 Mech Regiments (20 year update) to that of about a third of that for the Clan wars?

Oops again? Or on purpose? If the Clans invaded with the IS at its original strength and were allowed RACTs (capitol missiles); commando actions in the rear, attacks against their staging / supply depos in the periphery and deep periphery, would have been gutted?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | >> (show all)
Extra information
1 registered and 197 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is enabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 123676


Contact Admins Sarna.net