ghostrider
07/03/18 08:33 PM
66.74.61.223
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You suggested the IS only salvages things, when asked why the FC did not build new factories instead of needing the CC's for your alt history. So reread it, and start remembering what was said, not what was thought to be said. It makes it easier to avoid having to rehash alot of the same junk.
How did they destroy dropships? The suggestion of using 108 fighters to attack a single vessel should tell you, you don't need nukes. Simple weapons damage from the fighters will kill a warship. Oh wait. So the alamo nukes should have been used the entire time in the succession wars as it was the only way to kill dropships?
And I have not found where the range of the missile is stated. It may well be, a normal PPC will outrange it, and do the same damage as the alamo. Without the radiation left by the nuke.
And what do you know. You can use it the next round, and so on. It is not a one shot wonder. And now having 108 fighters with a single ppc does what if they all hit? 108 capital points of damage. No worries of having only two shots. No worries of the warship blowing your dropship to dust before you can launch. Even ground based capital weapons are a threat. So guess nuking them is the best way as well. Who needs to live on the world anyways?
The fixation on the nukes has stopped any thinking outside of using them. They are the worst solution to the problem, as they kill all sides where the radiation is concerned.
Again. The solutions presented here are not for all, and should not be presented as the ONLY way things could be done. Several of the books said the IS had no idea of where the clans had what. And intel is only good for a limited time. The warship can jump to another system, maybe even your staging area and take out your fleet before you can do anything. Oh wait. That stops the entire idea of using this. And the loss of dropships and jumpships to do your massed nuke run can not be easily replaced.
The warship may be dead, but the clans have more. And all bets are off as to limiting the destruction they will wreak.
And this does not even touch others in the IS using those nukes to 'protect themselves from others in the IS' as you put forth for the reason to use them against the clans. Free Skye would be happen to take out Katherine with a misplaced nuke. And saying they had to, in order to prevent her from killing them all would be valid. Following the IS using them against the clans.
One more thing. The canon story is NOT going to make sense most of the time, since they are coming out with new things and want to make money. Without a new war, it just doesn't work. I hate the holes in it. I hate their saying one thing won't work, but use it in another fashion because they want it to. Sound familiar?
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ghostrider
07/03/18 09:30 PM
66.74.61.223
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Wolf Clan Sourcebook, #1842. Page 37 under the section of fourth wave.
The ilKhan did attempt to slow Clan Wolf by refusing to allow them to use the Provisional Garrison Clusters (PGCs) for occupation duties being handled by the frontline troops. He claimed that PGCs had not been part of the initial invasion bid. This was true enough, but these essentially administrative units are not traditionally considered part of a bid. He was challenged by the Wolf khans, who pointed out that the ilKhan had already authorized they use of PGCs for his own Smoke Jaguars.
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Requiem
07/03/18 11:29 PM
58.175.193.140
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Ok … Provisional Garrison Units were allowed into the IS to free up their main line units that were supposed to have second line equipment. The Clans (writers) cheated by using semantics … and were allowed to reinforce their newly captured worlds …. and why did no one engage in a Right of refusal …. Because, it was in their best interests to allow it ….
However at the same time IS forces were not allowed to reinforce their positions by creating new RCTs or RACTs – can we say favouritism towards the clans …..
So again we have a double standard as to the game where one side is given more from Pax FC to Pax Clan … because they realised the amount they brought in could not hold the area that was taken …. So why was there never an attack in their rear … again poor writing …
As for bringing up the CC - ??????? – two different time periods so no point here ….
As for using nukes – it is the easiest way to kill a ship – one hit by one 5KT warhead only. As for writing that a PPC = Nuke – can someone get a grip and look at the science of the two …. A nukes thermal temperature is above that of a sun where a PPC is ? - Strategically and Tactically, sometimes they are the best way to win … and we are using them in space so fallout ????? ad for numbers they did not have an unlimited supply.
100 Wolds – 100 Jumpships – 100 Vengeance Dropships – 800 Nukes all coordinated like that of Operation Galahad etc – and the entire fleet of an entire clan disappears stranding them on the worlds they are on - then move on to the next Clan in a sweep from both FC and DC at the same time – this would work, so again why not why did we have to wait until the Jihad for nukes
And what about that of the capital missile as a substitute for a Nuke? Why did we have to wait for their introduction?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 02:43 AM
66.74.61.223
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The Alamo is a 5 kiloton nuclear missile which can be carried by aerospace and conventional fighters. They can be used either in space or in an atmosphere to attack air and ground targets, but don't have the range for orbital bombardments or to attack targets in orbit while in an atmosphere. Though fairly lightweight at only five tons, an Alamo still negatively affects the carrying fighter's flight characteristics per missile carried (only fighters of 50 tons or greater can carry an Alamo, while only a 100-ton fighter can carry two). When used in an atmosphere an Alamo can either operate in ground- or air-burst modes with a range of over ten kilometers, which it can travel in just twenty seconds.[2]
From the wiki, it seems to suggest the alamo has a range of 1 if the post about a space hex being 18 km was correct. As this seems to be the only missile that can be used on a fighter, that means you need a 50 up to 100 ton fighter to even use them.
The PPC is longer range then that, though it is odd that it says a 5 KT does 10 capital damage, yet this is lighter then the normal ones of that size.
Not sure where you got the 100 worlds, 100 jumpships, 100 vengeance carriers from. But with the best way to win, why bother landing on the clan worlds? Why not just nuke them from orbit and not risk your land forces? Then that goes to fights in the IS. Why bother landing when you can wipe out the enemy from orbit? And not all worlds have the factories to try and take.
Secondly where is written that IS forces are only allowed Salvage – what about all the technical manuals / novels which include newly designed and manufactured mechs?
That statement is in response to You suggested the IS only salvages things, when asked why the FC did not build new factories instead of needing the CC's for your alt history came from.
Maybe rereading the post thoroughly might be in order. Too much missing information seems to be coming up.
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Requiem
07/04/18 05:53 AM
58.175.193.140
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Comprehension …. Me missing information … Ha Ha Ha … go back and read your own …
100 worlds is an example.
Re-read your previous posts in re to what was written re salvage and building factories.
My post was re building up-to (ore even more) 30 new RCTs and RACTs during the reconstruction phase of the IS (ie. between Tukayyid and Operation Bulldog / Serpent) for just the FC and also replicated for Draconis Combine and Free Worlds League that are specifically designed for anti-clan warfare – thus the IS has 90+ RCTs / RACTs designed to eradicate the clans ( a point that was never done by the writers and makes absolutely no Tactical / strategic sense – it is on the same level as that of the FC not attacking the CC during the 3039 war – which shows that no one on the writing team had any military training whatsoever – borders on the ridiculous again …. Another Oops of the highest magnitude – they totally missed the obvious again)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 06:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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This just in.
Free Skye rebels have taken the missile production wing at Defiance Industries on Hesperrus II, and threatened to detonate the nukes there that are part of the counter offense against the clans if the FC forces did not leave the planet, and the Skye Federation.
The commanding officer of the defense forces claimed they would not do so, and began to take back the facility.
Sometime during the operations the nukes were detonated, gutting most of the factories here, and making it impossible for anything to live in the general area.
The Free Skye left a message saying they have a right to defend themselves from the aggressors.
As is human nature, the idea of using what ever is available to defend yourself from threats has escalated the use of nukes in the IS.
Since the forces attacking the clans started using them, so have all the rebellious and radical groups in the IS. The rush for nukes or even just the materials to use them has driven up the prices to a point where even the houses are having a hard time securing it.
In other news, the Black Dragons have reportedly equipped Thunderbolt missiles with a nuke warhead, normally known as a 'Davey Crockett'. Several were dropped on border worlds with the DC and started using them against any and all, including the DCMS.
Other news coming in, suggest more nuclear strikes against government targets and enemies has been reported, but not confirmed at this time. Stay tuned as we get more information in.
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Requiem
07/04/18 08:18 PM
58.175.193.140
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And so a new chaos succession war begins as humanity takes its final steps towards self-immolation … death fire and plague brought on upon man’s ignorance, desire and greed.
Death has become the adventure of all who wish to aggrandize their cause.
As death laughs … all die … behold the handmaidens of lies … truth lies hidden
The dream has become the nightmare … darkness descends … let those who wish to walk the path of darkness do so for this is their fate
Levity … let the phoenix fly … mockery lost …
If a full and complete nuclear winter is your choice of a fruitful game let it be so as for me I will find a new bay from which to fight.
War criminals and the desperate seek power through such implements of misbegotten power, a strange compulsion which leads them through dark pathways.
The true warrior shrinks not from duty but neither does he revel in death.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/08/18 03:52 AM
66.74.61.223
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My point is the writing is completely and utterly wrong, why is that what is written is considered absolute and factual? … can anyone explain this?
This statement is one of those times you said the writers are wrong.
The context was dealing with the writers not following the way battles were fought, even though they decided how the game would work.
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Requiem
07/08/18 04:49 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: why is that what is written is considered absolute and factual?
Both those on the stage and those within the audience can have at times a misconception as to what is really going on.
For the author and the reader this is also true – misconception – words can have more than one meaning and from one country to another certain phases can have different meanings.
Alas we do not live in a society where the author’s writing and the readers meaning of said work can be vastly different due to writing style, a turn of a phrase or even the choice of word can change the between the authors writing and that of the person reading said work.
Quote: This statement is one of those times you said the writers are wrong.
Copy and paste into a quote please.
As for context yours or mine…..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/08/18 08:21 PM
66.74.61.223
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This entire argument came from the lack of properly worded statements. This had to be the way it was done, verse I would have done.
When presented with the canon facts, which are absolute for the writers in the game, the assumption of what was available comes up and suggest they are wrong.
No numbers, just an assumption of what is available.
Presenting the alt histories isn't the issue. It is saying the writers were wrong.
The idea of needing an alt history, and rewrite says they were wrong. But this simple fact will not suffice.
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Requiem
07/08/18 09:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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These are my option’s as to the overall writing template - if it doesn’t make sense I will say so… if I believe they were in error in writing a story in a particular way …. I believe I have the right to criticize their work … I have that right, freedom of thought and freedom of speech ….
When writing a military novel, like sport, you will always have arm-chair generals who will criticise their work … look for errors / make a speech as to what they should have done to win etc etc
This is our right …. The Clan war, again in my opinion, was written to a very low level – there are too many plot holes that make absolutely no sense whatsoever …. They need fixing to make the game better …. Cannon history should not be considered an absolute …. If we can have revised rules to make the game better why can we not have revised history to make the game better?
Thus the need for a re-write of history as per re-writes of rules
If it is good for one aspect of the game, then why not for all of the game ….
Can you say what I am suggesting is that wrong? …. Let’s expand and make the game’s history more exciting give the players more areas to play in …
For example:-
Piracy / Letters of Mark / Ant-Clan Units in the Periphery (hunting supply ships and supply depos.)
Fix Aerospace Rules so that Big wings can Take on Warships (bring in Battle of Brittan and WWII Pacific Campaign)
Rather than just going after one Clan (Jags) – Go against all of them (as in all reality this is what is required)
Fix the rules / Law for the Star League's First Lord - SLDF et al
Bring in Commando Units – behind the lines operations
Bring in Anti-elemental weapons
Bring in My aerospace “capital missiles” etc etc
And as for going to Huntress and not returning with a gift basket of technology and buildings is absolutely ludicrous – Look at the end of WWII Germanys V1 and V2 program – America got the scientists and Russia the infrastructure ….. this is perhaps one of the biggest plot holes that hamstrings the IS for all future wars with the Clans due to the technology Gap.
Can anyone say that any rational person would do this?
For in a war setting these areas of battle that are not there Canon left them out, however, they need to be included to make the game more believable and more fun (and again this is in my opinion and my right to criticize)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/08/18 06:00 PM
58.175.193.140
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One more issue,
Battle of Tukayyid – May 1st to 21st 3052 – in which the Truce of Tukayyid is established for the next fifteen years.
Invasion of Coventry by Clan Jade Falcon – March to June 3058
First Whitting Conference - October 1st 3058 – resurrection of the Star League
Task Force Serpent and Operation Bulldog launched – May 3059
Thus, why so quick off the mark? The truce does not end until 3067 ….
Why not invest in a couple of years of
• research and development ;
• New Battlemech and Aerospace Designs (including 2nd Gen. Omni and Power Armour);
• Increased Manufacturing throughout the entire IS with the aim of ….
• Building new Consumable Depots, RCTs, RACTs, Warships, Pocket Warships etc.
* Training Vs. OpFor against those who were within the initial Clan Invasion. etc
Then when you have enough New forces rather than go after one Clan you can go after them all …
Oooops again ….. requiring a military Adviser to advise? how would the politics of this work out as a Great House Leader your obligation is to all of your people, especially when they have been conquered by an foreign power such as the Clans.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/08/18 09:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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Supposition of what they had in forces, as well as information?
It seems the IS didn't think they had the forces to take on all the clans at once, so limited it to just the jaguars, and used the brutal ways, including, but not limited to, Turtle Bay.
The invasion of Coventry probably was in response to the refusal war, and they had to show they were not hurt by it. Show of force.
Then the idea of logic doesn't fit in battle tech, since making money on it, requires conflicts so they can come out with TRO's and such every so often, as well as new rules sets.
Oooops again ….. requiring a military Adviser to advise? how would the politics of this work out as a Great House Leader your obligation is to all of your people, especially when they have been conquered by an foreign power such as the Clans.
Have you actually asked the developers if they had a military advisor helping them? Or maybe some of them were in the military. I don't know. And from the implications here, neither do you.
As for the last statement of foreign powers running worlds, refer to the ENTIRE history of the IS, especially with the succession wars section. But then I guess the CC isn't a concern with this. The FS wasn't so nice to the conquered people of the CC as you seem to think. Overall, it is better then most, but some leaders were resentful and did go the rout of the brutal occupation. Otherwise, Melissa would not have removed them and replaced them with LC forces. But then logic holes isn't just the canon versions.
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Requiem
09/09/18 12:39 AM
58.175.193.140
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As stated previously the cannon interpretation of the Clan invasion and the responses required of the Inner Sphere forces is written with no understanding what-so-ever of any tactical or political acumen, thus the need for a professional who could have liaised with the production development team – hence a more accurate story could have been developed that that of the hack writing that was was provided.
Why an invasion of both Clan Jade Falcon and Wolf was never executed during / or at the end of the Refusal War and taking advantage of their damaged position, makes no sense whatsoever to the war on Coventry by allowing the Jade Falcons to just leave also makes little sense.
However the greatest indignity is that of the timing between the re-establishment of the Star League and that of the Commencement of Operation Bulldog and Serpent.
Thus showing a clear lack of understanding of any military understanding as to the time required to prepare for and execute a major assault as that of Operation Bulldog and Serpent.
Example – logistics for D-Day WWII, the planning for moving hundreds of thousands of men, their materials, vehicles and equipment, transferred to hundreds of embarkation ports and airfields. So, how many years did it take to build this force and to plan for the invasion, in comparison to that of the IS with Operation Bulldog and Serpent? …. It does not make any sense!
As the aim of all IS states is the removal of ALL the Clans, not just one.
However, what we do get is the writers interfering again due to their limited understanding of how the development of the story should proceed.
Thus why not give yourself more time? (as the 15 year truce is still in effect) – build new Omni-Mechs / Omni-Fighters / Power Armour / Anti- Elemental Weapons, RCTs, RACTs, Dropships, Pocket Warships, Warships. Liaise with local Partisan forces so that they can dsrupt Clan forces on the day - thus providing a better chance of success than just using the forces that are on hand right now.
All of this requires time to get into position!!!!!
Plus this would have given the IS time to perfect new weapon systems and training
For, how can you expect FC and DC troops to work side by side unless you have trained them to do so – at this time they still hate each other – time is required to get them to work as one harmonious army.
Also, if more time was used then in all probability the WOB would have been allowed into the Star League and their Shadow Divisions would have been included into the SLDF.
As it is currently written, it is just laughable as to the extent of what was written as to what in any real military organisation would have required to design and execute the operation.
As for the last statement, missed the point regarding the difference between an Internal and External invader during the history of the IS and how this should have been perceived by anyone within the IS.
The entire invasion could have been written in such a way as to expand the universe – however, due to a lock of understanding and imagination we are provided with a story that defies any logical or rational forethought or understanding regarding military or political procedures.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/09/18 04:38 AM
66.74.61.223
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Example – logistics for D-Day WWII, the planning for moving hundreds of thousands of men, their materials, vehicles and equipment, transferred to hundreds of embarkation ports and airfields. So, how many years did it take to build this force and to plan for the invasion, in comparison to that of the IS with Operation Bulldog and Serpent? …. It does not make any sense!
Really?
A single country moving forces across a world, but yet no understand on how it took so long for 5 nations, 4 if you FC is kept as one, that did not trust one another, to come up with the materials and such to move those forces not across a world, but light years away from support and supplies. Just getting the units together is a challenge in itself.
This is not some simple romp a few thousand miles.
You want accuracy from a role playing game yet won't talk to the developers? Logic in a game does not sell books and such. Only playing it does. I hate the money grabs that was done a few times, but I do understand the need for it at times. New mechs came out in adventure packs, and not everyone bought them. Same with the house books and such. New things come up and need to be clarified so tournament rules are not just sprung on people at the cons.
Thus why not give yourself more time?
Why give your enemy the time to rebuild as well as fortify or worse. Continue to assault your worlds, as you have already proven, you can not defend them. A full offensive now may put them on the defensive. Not all worlds were safe with the truce.
Again. Using future information to justify the ends. At the time of the decision, only WOB knew anything about what they were doing, and they didn't tell anyone else. Hell, WOB invaded Terra. That alone makes them look like an enemy. But yet, that fact seems to have create a plot hole here.
As for the last statement, missed the point regarding the difference between an Internal and External invader during the history of the IS and how this should have been perceived by anyone within the IS.
Being invaded doesn't matter by whom, just that your people are now under someone else's control.
how would the politics of this work out as a Great House Leader your obligation is to all of your people, especially when they have been conquered by an foreign power such as the Clans.
For the IS houses, the some of the clans treated the people better then rival houses.
The history, as well as being stated in the novels, says they will take the worlds back at a later time. Most barely know they are under new rulership. Some clans were horrible with their conquests.
Again. Talk to the developers. All of the supposition being put up and then saying it is the only way it should have been, and saying the writers don't know what they are doing,
Well remember this. They are selling books, and we are here not making any money from it. Horrible or not, they are making money on it.
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Requiem
09/09/18 06:36 AM
58.175.193.140
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Wow, D Day A single country moving forces across a world, a simple romp a few thousand miles ….
Day One –
approx. 156,000 troops landed on Normandy – involving British, American, Canadian, Free-French, etc.; 11,590 aircraft; 50,000 vehicles; 13,000 paratroopers; 6,939 Vessels involved in Operation Neptune
Within five days – 326,547 troops and 104,428 tons of supplies had been landed plus an additional 54,000 vehicles
By the end of June – the Allies had landed 850,000 men and 150,000 vehicles
There is no logic in the historical development of the game the only logic is in playing the game?
If there is no logic in the historical development then it is all just one big black hole made up at the whim of the developer – thus anything is possible?
If this is so why then so ardent against my plan to invade the Deep Periphery? Why keep saying they do not have the resources if resources are not required to determine a major campaign only the OK of the game developer?
As for the Clans attempting to garrison a world – their lack of security - partisan activity would continue (assassination, bombing etc) to keep them off balance …
Yes I agree no one knew about the WOB Forces. But if a later date was used then yes you can say they should be included - and would their technology be shared with all the armies of the SLDF? (It makes for an interesting topic on its own!)
As for being conquered by the Clans – think about the cultural differences between the two societies – this would have placed a huge psychological strain upon the conquered people – so yes, it is a big deal!
As for talking to the developers regarding the Clans takeover of planets and how they treated the people – why not read the books like the 1st Somerset Striker, the Jade Falcons’ re-education camps etc
As for selling books – when it first came out I had one shop’s total stock that was about half related to just Battletch. Also consider the volume of books being produced, that too has dropped off considerably.
So, now I can only get it online via Amazon – so selling books has now become what? And their profit margin is also reduced? How long will this remain before the owners stop it all together because the money is just not there?
However, I have not received a reply to my underlying question….
What would the situation be for both the IS and Clans if a massive re-armament program was initiated and rather than launching Operation Bulldog and Serpent in 3059 they go in 3065-66
How much more resources – Mechs, Fighters, Dropships, Pocket Warshisps, Warships, Power Armour, New Weapon Systems, New RCTs, New RACTs etc would have been established for the IS?
Would they have been in a position to take on all the IS Clans rather than just the Jaguars?
Again this proves the inadequacy of the game developers / writers, how hard wold it have been to design a complete rout of those clans that do not defect rather than Just One?
Would not this have driven more sales than just the couple of books based upon the destruction of the Jaguars – as this would have required more books to write the war – thus more sales – more profit?
In all probability there would have been a need for a new Technical Readout Book as well as new miniatures etc.
Hence more profit? – It is just too slipshod in its development as it stands as far as I am concerned
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/09/18 04:42 PM
66.74.61.223
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There is no logic in the historical development of the game the only logic is in playing the game?
Suggesting sending troops across an ocean compared to several hundred light years with about a weeks worth of charging a jump drive, and some how you got no logic in history?
it is all just one big black hole made up at the whim of the developer – thus anything is possible?
It is a sci fi game. DUH!
If this is so why then so ardent against my plan to invade the Deep Periphery?
I am against your fantasy numbers of what the IS has, and using those fantasy numbers to say the writers were wrong for doing what they did with their numbers with their game. But some how, this fact is not registering. The argument of using made up numbers to argue with someone elses made up numbers, and bashing them, because you have no clue on what they had to deal with. And as this is the whim of the developer, they are right.
But if a later date was used then yes you can say they should be included - and would their technology be shared with all the armies of the SLDF?
This is the tech they took from comstar when they invaded earth. How, at the time of the clan wars, could you even think they would in the canonverse? I know I didn't when it was being played out. Pretty sure almost everyone that wasn't part of the planning didn't know this.
Operation Serpent was done to stop the invasion for good. Then the IS leaders didn't try to remove the rest, as it may well have reignited the war again. Then again, it would have removed their future story lines, like the red corsair, or the invasion of Coventry and such. Logical? Not from what real life would do, but it was set up to make more stories.
The books not being in print may well be the cost of doing so. Trying to make a product, and having those making it charge so much that people normally are not willing to spend 50 to 100 bucks on a single book, no matter how well written. Economic demands come into effect here. Anyone that has any knowledge of business knows this.
And that isn't going into the greed of those making the game coming into effect. This is based on most companies. The execs want more money with less effort on their part.
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Requiem
09/09/18 07:50 PM
58.175.193.140
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In understanding Operation Overlord and Neptune you begin to understand the multiple levels of complexity that arise when attempting an invasion of this size.
Thus when it comes to Operation Bulldog and Serpent and their level of complexity, how would their complexity in establishing multiple invasions on multiple worlds all at the same time be?
Would it be even greater than that of when the Capellans lost half / all or their worlds during the last Succession War and the war of 39-40?
How long would it take to even devise and implement – consider the time it would take to rotate out line troops and replace them with other units at the same time and all the logistics that go with an invasion of this scale – Planning alone should have taken 9 – 12 months!
Plus you need for each IS State to rise to the occasion
Establish bridges over the differences in each realm
Get over the mistrust, Get over the bad blood
It cannot be all bitter misconception and political boxing
…. and all this requires time to implement …. And yet it was written in such a way as that all the units could do it in a couple of months …. Let us all suspend reality and just go with it ….
As for different possible game developments – double standards – cannon writers Vs game writers?
As for a later Start and introducing the WOB Shadow Forces et al – once they become part of the Star League (and fulfilling he master’s prophesy) I cannot see any issues with them helping all of the IS as they did with the Free Worlds League – so why not have all the front line units now outfitted with WOB Omni technology plus all others.
If this became the Cannon, it is my opinion, that it would have reinvigorated the entire game even to the point of getting a new box set and other books and promotional material back into the Game Store with the right advertising strategy – massive armies fighting from the IS to the Clan Home Worlds and a final Invasion of those worlds. It would have improved the game immensely, but what we got was ….. the disastrous plot development of the Jihad.
(with only source materials and no novels, this speaks volumes as to how bad the idea really was)
If Operation Serpent was to stop the Invasion for good it failed miserably – as it did not stop anything – in addition to when the opportunity arose to obtain a copy of plus factories of Clan Technology the IS obtained nothing???????
Errr …. Operation Serpent was after the Red Corsair Incident and Coventry …. It was before the First Whitting Conference where they established the re-birth of the new Star League.
So how can you have a good story without a degree of logic? You can’t you only get a sub-standard story …. And that is what was provided
Buyer behaviour and adverting still play a part when it comes to marketing a product – starting off with just an e-book format means the business no longer has the capital to start with a print copy.
Taken together with the lack of advertising within trade magazines and game stores this can only lead to one conclusion.
That their operating budget must be very small – and most of that is for wages alone.
Thus their parent company is unwilling to consider any capital investment to grow the product at this time ( no faith in the product to increase profit margins).
Thus the game is probably just one step away from being cancelled all together due to a consistent lack of growth / profit over multiple periods.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/09/18 11:17 PM)
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ghostrider
09/10/18 01:02 AM
66.74.61.223
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Interesting that the length of time for invasions is sooo long when you want the forces to build up, yet demanded that the IS states that were attacked by the clans, during the initial invasion, then the battle of tukyyid, happen immediately, as well as having the DC launch a full strike on the Sabre Cat in retaliation for Turtle Bay. And this doesn't sound hypocritical or contradictive of each other?
I will agree the novel writers tended to screw up the rules in their books. That is established fact. Exploding fusion engines being a big one. Yet the basic outline of what the developers wanted had to be followed.
Now. Drop all the information you have after the invasion started, and think of what you have right then and there. Now make your decisions. And this time, get the facts from the developers on the numbers of what the IS had. The numbers before the invasion are what you have, not those they had before the 3039 war, as your alt has, THEN compare it to canon.
Just because they did not use your numbers of what was there, means they are stupid and wrong?
They have no clue on your numbers what so ever. They used theirs. And maybe even not that. They might have just thrown things on the wall and seen what stuck.
Want to buy hobby books? Alot of hobby stores no longer exist, or carry the wide varieties they did in the past. And buying on line, not e-books, is cheaper then the brick and mortar shops. So where are you going to put the limited budget for this at? Waste alot of money printing out thousands of books that will probably sit in a warehouse, or do it on demand?
I do agree the game has not done any real advertising in a long while.
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Requiem
09/10/18 05:12 AM
58.175.193.140
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In response to the first paragraph – No, SOP during the invasion in that a defending force would initiate multiple guerrilla combat doctrines including striking at the enemies supply line.
As for believing everything regarding the plot development as written must be accepted as “it”, is a complete and utter fallacy the majority of situations that characters find themselves in beggars belief as to its lack of realism.
The invasion as it stands is completely boring – if re written you may be able to get some life into the story.
Cheaper does not mean better – how is the game to grow if the only advertising is completed through word of mouth? It can’t and unless a new marketing strategy is implemented soon I cannot see the game surviving in the real world for much longer, especially when the number of players diminishes each year to a reduced number of novels and game supplements resulting in a reduced lack of interest. (Compare it to the number of 40K produced each month)
So unless there is a new White Knight who will inject funds into the game to keep it afloat how long can the game continue as is?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/10/18 11:54 AM
66.74.61.223
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In response to the first paragraph – No, SOP during the invasion in that a defending force would initiate multiple guerrilla combat doctrines including striking at the enemies supply line.
This was not what was said in those posts. It was stated the FC/DC/FRR should have been striking back before the Ilkhan died, and the blood named went back to the clan worlds, and especially during that time. Then it was stated they should have retaken worlds after the truce went into effect. And the latest now says they should have removed all the clans from the IS.
Then it was said the loss of face by the combine for the Turtle Bay incident would have honor demand they hunt down the Sabre Cat and destroy it. And with that, it was suggested the DC could never have peace with anyone as the loss of face would demand they punish all for any transactions, which losing worlds and even battles to the LC/FS/FC/FRR and such would demand.
And with new statement of they should have waited until they could rebuild, refit, train new units to specifically counter the clans directly argues against the first statements and thoughts put out.
The invasion as it stands is completely boring – if re written you may be able to get some life into the story.
Completely boring is your opinion, but not one I agree with. There were things that could have been better. Rewriting almost anything can make it more lively. But rewriting it using facts and numbers in your mind, that is not the same ones in the developers/writers minds isn't going to happen. Saying they did it wrong, as you don't know what they were dealing with, is where this whole issue comes about. Fix the rules first, then redo the entire history. I would think the entire landscape of the IS as well as the clans would be changed.
A plot hole that seems to be missed is Solaris 7 and the mech duels. Mechs are supposed to have been rare, and hard to come by, yet the stables on world bought new and used ones to fight in the arenas. The military supposedly didn't have enough to fill in holes in their ranks, yet the stables could buy them without problems?
As said before. The rare version of the infantry srm could be manipulated in flight. Sounds like a streak system to me, as well as not saying those one required special munitions. So that would say ALL srms used by that launcher would be capable of it, and I have not seen anything that suggests they are not the same ones used in mechs and tanks.
Infantry supposedly protected several worlds from invaders. At least one story said an invader took one of those worlds and sent on their forces to help reinforce another world. Then they changed the way infantry took damage. Instead of falling quickly, before they could be reinforced, or hold the enemy to that world and avoid them from being used elsewhere, which would then, in turn, allow other worlds to be saved. Even normal battles would have been changed. Battles won or lost that weren't before.
The one battle with rebels on the clan worlds. If they were not taking the damage as the original rules had, would Alexander Kerensky have died in the one fight that had inferno infantry keeping his mech aflame? Or keeping reinforcements away, possible destroying them as well?
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Requiem
09/10/18 05:05 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, striking Back and retaking worlds, guerrilla activity, Deep Strike Periphery Units and the hunting down all of the Smoke Jaguars Warships is SOP during the Invasion.
Post 15 year truce the Inner Sphere has the time to rebuild and rearm –creating many new Pocket Warships, Warships, RCTs, RACTs –new Mech designs (second gen. omni) New Aerospace and new Power Armour plus new weapon systems for these vehicles and their Infantry.
Thus once the Inner Sphere is ready they should then have plans to attack and destroy ALL of the Clans not just one – for just destroying one Clan is both politically and tactically ridiculous.
This long term plan makes both politically and militarily sense. - Through the application of new vehicles with new training and discipline.
As for te re-write yes it would change the entire landscape of the Inner Sphere – can anyone say they like the story as at 3150? I for one think the overall story has become quite ludicrous – hence the need for a re-write to put it back onto something (anything) more interesting.
In 3025 yes Mechs were supposed to be rare and hard to come by – but post invasion this all changed – how many new lines and factories were established churning out how many new vehicles in what could only be considered as in prodigious numbers. So the entire state of the manufacturing / engineering throughout the Inner Sphere changed prior to and during and after the Clan Invasion as all areas of the military and civilian technology returned to that of the Star League Era.
It wasn’t until the Jihad and the use of Nukes and retargeting industries once more would the level of technology once more slipped back.
However with the forming of the Republic this loss would have soon reversed once more with the advent of new technology.
As for the Chaos with the fall of the HPGs research and development progression would now be on a world to world basis.
As for the use of Infantry and Inferno SRM / LRM rounds – they have always had their place within the game, even creative uses can be found for them
I for one believe the history needs to be fixed first then the rules to ensure the continuance of the game – as it is with the novels that the Battletech universe gains its greatest advertising / exposure to people who would then want to play (the electronic gamers stay with the electronic game only? Or do they hunt for new knowledge?)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/10/18 05:15 PM)
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ghostrider
09/10/18 05:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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Timing is the issue here. Immediate freeing of the worlds is what you extolled in one thread. No waiting, just do it. Now suggesting they wait until they have the units to do so?
Infantry inferno LRMs were always in the game? Since when?
Infantry LRMs came out much later in the game.
And you missed the point again. Remote tracking of normal srms was available in the first mechwarrior book. NORMAL SRMS could be changed in flight. The idea of having to spend so much more money on streak srms, when normal ones could do so is one of the rule holes that needs to be fixed before a rewrite. It means the tech was available when the 3025 timeline was just out and being played.
I for one believe the history needs to be fixed first then the rules to ensure the continuance of the game
So you want to have to rewrite it a second time, once you fix the rules? Why?
Fix them quickly, then worry about story line. It shouldn't be that hard to fix most of them.
Otherwise you go right back to needing to redo it.
To be honest, even the 4th war was screwing up the game. The merger of the FS and LC started the decline. And having most of the novels for the 3025 era, more then a few of them had some holes in it. But as stated by others a while back, the writers took advantage of some things and did things the way they wanted to.
Using the energy beam that powered the ship yards around Kathil, yet no one has ever done that before? It was just thought up during a capellan raid on the world during a coms blackout in the 4th war?
Game balance is used to make vehicles require things far beyond reality. ICE's double the weight of a fusion engine?
But needing shielding to use a fusion engine in a vehicle, and it dies on the first hit?
From the looks of it, any unit using a fusion engine, uses electric/magnetic motors on all the wheels to propel it. No one will confirm this, and some have tried to discourage the notion. Yet a single wheel can be destroyed and not affect the other ones?
And a positraction hub would be the answer most would give. But that doesn't make sense as all wheels are independent suspension, which would not work well with the posi.
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Requiem
09/10/18 06:34 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes timing is the issue …
First, the invasion itself is the opening arc of the story requiring – the initiating of guerrilla warfare and deep periphery warfare etc.
Second, once the Comstar and their ComGuard have a 15 year truce – this provides the Inner Sphere with 15 years in which to re-build and re-arm for the continuation of the Clans’ Invasion – whilst this is going on south of the Tukayyrid line other forces are still engaged in continuing with guerrilla warfare and deep periphery warfare etc.
Third, The Inner Spheres’ retaliatory strike upon ALL the Clans – driving them back into the deep periphery where they will establish a new front from which to launch new attacks from ….. etc.
No the 4th Succession War didn’t – what was the ultimate aim of the game? To become the First Lord – the 4th achieved this – however what fell over was the game developers and their writers’ creative ability to use this as a Launchpad into a new story arc to enhance the development of the game.
Again novels within bookshops and libraries creates interest and new players, whereas in comparison how many new players go into a game shop and walk out with B’tech?
Look at how many novels 40K puts out each month and in hard cover, two to three and B’tech two to three a year for down load only?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 01:28 AM
66.74.61.223
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Initiating? What did the pirates do that lived there?
Chew bubble gum and throw knives at pictures of the IS leaders? Well after they stole the gum.
They were basically involved in guerilla warfare when the IS sent out forces to remove them. They tried the same with the clans, though the clans took them by surprise and removed the pirates. That isn't that difficult if you think about it. Take control of all jumpships you find, and the pirates can't leave the system. Then a very good search. With the superior sensors, most would not be able to hide long from the clans.
How much rebuilding are you going to get done, when you have worlds above the line?
The FWL, SI, and CC don't have to worry during this time, but as the Falcons push in the LC area, the FC has to keep forces constantly going into that area to defend against the clans and try to take back worlds. The DC has the same issues. The FRR basically is a dead state at that point. The FWL only joined the fight during the Outreach meeting. They could have supplied the DC with items before that, or just them afterwards. And the threat of them hitting the weak backside of the FC is why they couldn't move large amounts of units.
To my knowledge, they were rebuilding as fast as they could. The implication of the story line was they were maxed out. Now if you see that as wrong, and they had sources that were overflowing with quantity, then that is your choice. Stop saying the writers/developers are wrong for using their numbers and figures.
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Requiem
09/11/18 05:09 PM
58.175.193.140
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I was under the belief most of the pirates had been scattered (displaced) or destroyed by the Clans.
Thus we have refugees who once belonged to one of the pirate families. They would want revenge would they not?
Thus they too would become either guerrilla forces or assist a House Troops in being their guide within the Deep Periphery in an attempt to hunt down Clan Supply depots.
An enemy of my enemy is my friend type of situation.
As for rebuilding would this not be required only upon worlds that the Clans Invaded and they hold?
Yes the main issue is taking back worlds – war is as much concept as conduct – so how does each House Lord go about doing this?
Individually their forces are inadequate for the job
Together under the Star League Banner they do have a chance
And this chance is increased if they use the 15 year truce to the fullest to rebuild existing units, build new units and rearm all units with as much advanced technology as can be manufactured within this time frame.
The closest example that should have been uses is the American Production of armaments during WW2 – where almost the entire industry was turned over to the production of armaments.
If this was done on an Inner Sphere wide level the question remains how much more prepared would the new SLDF be in combating the Clans than they were in the Cannon universe – each Great House would have what up to a dozen new special forces anti clan RCTs, together with a 80% - 100% use in advanced weapons technology for all of their existing units? Look at the FWL development of warships with the assistance of the WOB - what could have happened if this was done on a Inner Sphere Level - and also what could have happened to the number of commercial Jumpships if they had taken this route - Hundreds of new Jumpships and with a continual output that is increasing each year as multiple new ship-yards are established throughout the Inner Sphere - thus the game finally moves away from its beginning premise of being technologically backwards as a new reformation throughout the Inner Sphere begins.
Plus they now have the aim of ridding the Inner Sphere of all Clan forces (of those that do not defect to the Star League) which is the overall political aim of all the House Lords is it not? Thus achieving their aim of acquiring back all of their worlds pre Clan Invasion.
As stated previously just getting rid of one Clan only helps one Great House so why go down this track as no House Lord would ever contemplate this political decision unless they were to take on each Clan one at a time until all were gone.
From a pure political and militarily standpoint the writers/developers lost the plot in only going after one Clan and at such an early point of time!
As for the writers/developers figures – what figures they were just making it up as they went along with the story, so why can’t others do the same thing?
And as for asking them the question – how many questions are actually answered on the main forum? Not many / almost none? So why bother when questions were asked and never answered in the past?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 05:35 PM
66.74.61.223
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Well they were doing so before the clans, and did so after. And only those pirates that were in the invasion corridor got hit. There is alot more around the rest of the IS, including in the borders.
It is unlikely the clans would allow anyone associated with a newly conquered world to get out. They needed the surprise in order to hit the IS. Refugees would put that at risk, even if most did not believe them. That is if they even allow dezgra people to live. They should know who is pirates, and who is independent colonies.
Also no jumpships means no getting away.
And the initial statement of the early invasion/operation Serpent was to show a complete change of ideas in the forums.
Demanding action now in early invasion to wait some for operation Serpent.
There was an argument about not having the information to regain control of the worlds during the initial invasion. Might need to reread that stuff if forgotten.
Again. Trying to suggest this course of action by knowing the future, verse what was known during that time. WOB never told the IS they were going to help them. In fact, when WOB did get involved, they nuked alot of worlds. Far cry from this concept. And without knowing the future, you can not say they should have done this or that. Even Comstars working with the clans was against the IS. If not for finding out before they got much further, comstar would have basically helped the clans get to Terra.
During the story line, they did not know the goals of the clans, until they were directed to expand their operations by the periphery.
So knowing this before coming up with the scenario, that would mean comstar would never help the clans.
Or so goes the line of thought.
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Requiem
09/11/18 06:48 PM
58.175.193.140
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Creating a 100% blockade within a system is not as easy as it sounds, even with warships. Commercial Jump-ships within the jump-point together with Drop-ships within the system or even on the planet can escape. As per all the cannon military withdrawals.
As for attacking jump-ships if the Clans started this military policy would not the Inner Sphere follow suit and attack the Clans Jump-ships in retaliation?
Given the figures within all the Cannon books regarding the Clan invasion fleets they would soon become stranded within the Inner Sphere if this policy was adopted and prosecuted to the maximum.
What lack of information to regain Clan Held worlds? Black Boxes plus partisan forces equals actionable information. Just because of the writers/developers forgot about this does not mean it would have not been actionable. In a real setting all Front Line RCTs and Important worlds would have them, in addition a stockpile would have been kept on hand for just such an emergency. The argument that there were not utilized is hokum.
As for sending an early Operation Serpent does not make strategic sense at this time. The only thing it does is that of trying to make an unrealistic story a little more interesting. Bust what we got was a complete and utter disappointment in the overall outcome of this campaign.
In and Out very quickly with no souvenirs what so ever!
If a little more though was given to this story arc, rather than the rush job we got, this should have been a massive story arc on its own!
What we do know about WOB is that they were assisting the Free Worlds League were they not?
It does not matter if the Inner Sphere knew about the WOB’s military capabilities – what is important is the ability to maximise their combat efficiency and numbers within the sort time frame that is open to them, thus when counterattacking the Inner Sphere can crush the Clans at their own game.
The post knowledge that the WOB had these Shadow units is just icing on the cake! An increased TO&E to the SLDF.
As for Comstar helping the Clans to get Terra, erroneous statement, they were just playing along until they knew who and what they were dealing with they were always going to knife the Clans in the back when they had the chance to do so.
And once they did know we get Clans Vs. Com-Guard
Then post Operation Scorpion we get their reformation and their assistance within the Star League (prior to the great counter-offensive)
Plus the WOB always wanted to be a part of the Star League and with their Primus in Exile (Capt. General of the Free Worlds League) they were always expected to get this.
Once they are admitted would they not wish to legitimise themselves as the equal of Comstar thus throughout the Inner Sphere they assist the Other Great Houses Military projects.
The answer is YES as this is just a logical train of thought.
I am still under the belief that a re-write would produce a more robust Inner Sphere game ‘Universe’ than the current cannon mess we find ourselves within and also without the stupidity of reducing the size of forces available.
(Northwind – defended by two mechs (one a hatchetman) and a couple of agro mechs and infantry? At the bare minimum they could have given her a highlander – this age is without doubt the most idiotic next to the Jihad – completely lost the plot!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 10:44 PM
66.74.61.223
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The clans did attack jumpships, but not with normal weapons. Boarding parties were done. It is stated as such in few resources, as this was how they kept some information from being sent to the IS. Comstar blocked HPG messages.
Only a few escaped, and I seriously doubt pirates had the resources to have a jump ship waiting at a pirate point to evacuate their areas.
What lack of information to regain Clan Held worlds? Black Boxes plus partisan forces equals actionable information. Just because of the writers/developers forgot about this does not mean it would have not been actionable.
Again. Supposition that the black boxes were common in all areas, and that they had the units ready for such actions.
I could turn around and say the clans knew about them and had jammers that blocked the boxes from working. Not going to, as I don't know it.
It is also possible Comstar let the clans know about them. And they would have information on who may be the leaders of such cells and had them arrested immediately after, if not part of the targets for the clans to take out.
I don't doubt comstar had a huge compilation of IS agents. The shadow war would be a good start with that. New ones come in, but they would watch known training facilities. And that isn't saying someone didn't give up that information for a ton of c-bills.
So sending out a strike force to disrupt and possible destroy one of the clans, knowing they were not one nation for all, was not a good idea? They knew the clans would return home to regroup and rearm. And hitting them at home would not have sent the entire clans a message?
They moved as soon as they got the road map to the home worlds. Complete surprise was the goal, and a fast, powerful assault was needed, to avoid the clans from figuring out what was going on. Waiting would well have tipped off the clans to the attack, and allowed them to counter it. Say all of the clans warships in one jump location with orders to destroy anything coming in ring a bell?
Assisting the FWL, and helping the IS was not one and the same at that time. Not even the FWL knew what WOB had planned. The rebellions on the worlds WOB was using said it wasn't a good thing for the local populous. So why would it be good for the others?
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ghostrider
09/11/18 11:00 PM
66.74.61.223
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As for Comstar helping the Clans to get Terra, erroneous statement, they were just playing along until they knew who and what they were dealing with they were always going to knife the Clans in the back when they had the chance to do so.
Even Comstars working with the clans was against the IS. If not for finding out before they got much further, comstar would have basically helped the clans get to Terra.
Only when the Ilkhan said terra was their target, did comstar start working against them. If not for that simple talk, Comstar would never have found out what their plan was, and helped them get there. And Walterly was trying to use them to destroy the houses so she could be first lord, then deal with the weakened clans afterwards.
What is erroneous about that?
It does not matter if the Inner Sphere knew about the WOB’s military capabilities
You are saying they would have the WOB forces had they waited, yet they didn't know they had any. If that isn't contradictive, then the looking glass has distorted our world.
Then post Operation Scorpion we get their reformation and their assistance within the Star League (prior to the great counter-offensive)
You do know that Scorpions objective was to destroy all IS leaders, and take over? It failed as Walterly was killed. If not for the Kuritan spy, it would have destroyed the IS ability to do anything. So the writers avoided it by her death. It was just after this, WOB started their work to destroy comstar. How is a shadow war in ROM helping get the information needed to fight the clans a good thing?
And not once during the clan invasion time did I see WOB say then wanted to be star league. Even when Operation Serpent was going to the clan home worlds did this come out. So where is the logic in this?
It is taking the future, and saying all were fortune tellers and could see what would happen, and therefore follow ideas and numbers that didn't exist.
This may be a fantasy sci fi game, but it does not rely on fortune telling to run the nations. Well maybe Kali Liao.
No intel suggesting any of this would happen.
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