Requiem
04/08/18 08:33 PM
58.175.193.140
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Consider Winston Churchill’s order regarding the S.O.E. …. “and now set Europe ablaze”.
This is exactly how the secondary war between the Inner Sphere and Clans would evolve, in the event a stand up battle is impractical … convert to insurgent tactics, that being sabotage, assassination, kidnapping, etc. but on a grander scale …
(Primary war, being the war on the front and the Tertiary being the war within the periphery).
However before we consider this you must first consider the resource book Sourcebook: 20 year Update (#1639) in which detailed each House’s 'Mech Strength as at 3050 – (A vast difference from all other resource books concerning the Clan invasion – I must therefore surmise the reduced Inner Sphere strength was done on purpose to allow the Clans the ability to occupy a vast Inner Sphere area for game purposes)
The twenty year update, however, indicated the following ‘Mech Regiments for each house…
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Duchy of Andurien 6 Regiments
Magistracy of Canopus 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Total D of A / M of C 18 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Taurian 14 Regiments
Alliance 3 Regiments
Other Periphery 10 Regiments
Comstar 50 + Regiments
The Clans however consisted of:-
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters; 2 warships; 82 jumpships; 242 dropships
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries) 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries) 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries) 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
Prior to their invasion the clans should have remembered that of Napoleon – and his invasion of Russia – Long supply chains can lead to extreme problems on the front lines and especially when cut – thus to rectify these Clan’s would have established within the deep periphery, prior to their invasion of the Inner Sphere bases were established which are used as either ….
• A supply depo;
• Training facility for new warrior candidates (replacement personnel); and/or
• Each Clan may have established a manufacturing centre – for – ammunition; weapon systems; spare parts; battlemechs; elemental suits; and aerospace fighters (?) Though ammunition and essential spare parts seems the most likely.
(Garrisoned by only enough to stop a trial of possession by another Clan)
Clan Invasion
Assume the war proceeds as per normal for the First Wave …
Free Rasalhague Republic
Due to the size of their military the FRR would have to request military assistance from either/both the FC and DC to bolster their forces and provide a united front against the invaders (also to stop them gaining access to the rear of FC / DC operational zone via the FRR).
Guerrilla / Irregular warfare by IS Forces – by the Second Wave both the Federated Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine would realize that regular combat is ineffectual (at this stage) ….. an immediate order to transfer to irregular tactics would be issued together with a requirement for information on the following topic points:-
1. Transportation – the size of each Clan’s Fleet and their composition;
2. Size / Composition of each Clan’s forces – battle tactics – weapon composition / range / damage / heat / armour – survivability in battle etc.;
3. Supplies – transportation routes – food supplies – maintenance equipment, ‘Mechs, fighters, elementals, and their respective replacement pilots – where are they held within the periphery (on what world(s)) – ships / supply dates et al;
4. How are the people (civilians) / POWs being treated (unknown due to Comstar’s blackout);
5. Note:- By this stage each Federated Commonwealth World and RCTs forces would have access to Hanse Davion HPG Fax Machine. To operate in the event of another ComStar Interdiction (again). Thus the supply of information has been slowed but not stopped.
Thus the Federated Commonwealth, Free Rasalhague Republic and the Draconis Combine will send in to the new Clan Occupation Zone reconnaissance teams – small mercenary / house units – (approx. one to one company) – experts in guerrilla / irregular warfare – DEST / Rabid Fox (MIIO) / Loki units (intelligence et al) + commando units (assassination – insurgency)
Mercenary Contracts would also be available / thus the clans would now have to enact counter insurgency operations – however, the clans have no experience with this type of warfare (look closely at how they fight) and given the limited number of elementals per base, and the number you could have effective / operational at any one time would also limit their bases security. Thus the effectiveness of IS Forces would come down to their ability to effectively down an elemental and penetrate any technological security measures.
Their objectives are three fold – 1. Intelligence gathering – size / structure / location of each Clan’s garrison – communication methods – supply issues; ….. 2. Social – clan / indigenous population relations – Comstar HPG Stations and communication with the outside – individuals (either soldiers / technicians) who could be turned and become a spy for the IS; …. 3. Target of opportunity – if we can ‘acquire’ clan tech / liberate POW Camps / return safely …. Authorised to do so.
(Nt: again each unit’s DEST / Rabid Fox (MIIO) / Loki Unit will have a “Davion” HPG Fax Machine to send and receive transmissions – to bypass Comstar’s Interdiction/interference)
At the end of each sojourn a Dest / Rabid Fox (MIIO) / Loki agent remains on planet to coordinate partisan activities – plus to supply these partisans with advanced weaponry i.e. long range rifles / explosives – knowledge - to work as an effective cell during the invasion.
Knowledge Gleamed -
• Rough idea at to Fleet Size for each Clan – including the numbers of Warships / Jumpships;
• How each clan ensures civil compliance / Base security;
• Comstar’s “administration” of each planet (acting as a “Vichie” WWII government);
• Terrorist activities on each world – ability to make contact if possible;
• Interrelations between can / indigenous population – Warden Clans (find a situation similar to that of “Vietnam”) and Crusader Clans (find a situation like ‘Nazi – France / Russia’);
• What happened to our captured forces;
• Size / composition / Location of Garrison Forces and use of Comstar HPG Facilities to communicate between clans;
• Resupply dropships – size – food supplies – date arrived;
• Target of Opportunity – in the event the entire garrison’s warriors can be neutralised “outside the cockpit” / Leaving a minimum amount of Elementals / Mechs to deal with using our forces to do so – attack – capture all remaining technicians and ‘Mechs / Fighters / Elemental Armour + dropship and all computer / hard copy information et al.;
• Those captured – talked to and convert using bondsman etc. - clan rules to change side – if not …
• (Nt: my forces liberated a POW Camp and was able to find many Periphery Pirates – including Susie “one-Eye” Morgraine-Ryan at this stage / Remember WWII SAS raids upon airfields by using very fast jeeps / explosives – target engines etc. – in /out)
Once returned to Federated-Commonwealth / Draconis Combine Space:-
Debrief – new missions behind the Clan Occupation Zone are refined and enacted;
Command circuit erected from forward reconnaissance base to capital planet – Tharkad / Luthien – all information gleamed to be analysed.
At this point Price Hanse Davion decides to use a ‘backroom channel’ to provide the Draconis Combine with his intelligence regarding ComStar / and asks how the two sides can work together to defeat the Clans (Share intelligence regarding each Clan) – and to come to a consensus regarding ComStar's Vichie activity.
Development of new IS weapon systems would also be initiated, including.
• Anti-elemental infantry weapon (together with armour piercing / explosive armour piercing rounds/ depleted uranium (cook the suit)) – that would have a maximum range of say 600 to 900m;
• Infantry weapons – gas grenades that can be used to incapacitate even an elemental for a short time (outside their armour);
• Arrow IV / Air burst bombs for aerospace fighters – Chafe rounds – that are used to disrupt clan scanner arrays; and
• Bomber aerospace fighters – fitted with space arrow IV – three times the range with twice the explosive potential (ammo two per ton).
(Bombers to be utilized further down – they should be first used within a deep periphery space force hunting for Clan basses – To deny them access to their supplies and to rearm IS forces with Clan tech).
Therefore consider the following for integration into your game…
• With the aid of former Periphery Pirate Houses - multiple reconnaissance raids into the periphery – finding the locations of supply bases – Cutting off supply (weapons and personnel) routes would commence under the command of Morgan Hasek-Davion – Second in Command Susie “one-Eye” Morgraine-Ryan;
• Secondary effect – all captured clan material is sent to the front to re-arm existing elite house units with clan technology (level the playing field) – though some are sent to engineering plants – reverse engineer / improve upon existing Inner sphere weapon systems – if production facilities found – dismantle and send back to IS (gives you an understanding of reverse engineering clan tech;
• Scale up “spy / terrorist” activity within the Clan Occupation Zone (Clans would be hard pressed to stop this – as they do not have a military security force to protect their bases (long range assassinations) and their limited number of elementals would also be ineffective as a security screen;
• Propaganda – undermine “True Born” – free-births are to be de-programed – show them the joy of being a citizen of the inner sphere (repressed culture Vs. open culture again);
• Reinforce our main units with advanced technology – salvaged clan weapons – introduction of IS omni mechs / fighters – ani-elemental (infantry weapon) gauss sniper rifle (the ability to kill an elemental at long range);
• Look at using new strategies to win – use the location of the battle to minimise their strengths to win – use the location of the battle to minimise their strengths and maximise ours – no fixed C in C (must be mobile).
• Ie. IS overall strategy – how their forces can take away their garrison worlds by destroying their supply channels (jumpships) – only Nova Cat and jade Falcon have a sizeable navy;
• IS begins / continues with warship / pocket-warship production – armed with thermonuclear devices and large number of fighters – in both the Federated Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine;
• New armies are established – 1. Navy – Periphery war (destruction/capture of all supplies) 2. Terrorist activities upon Clan garrison worlds and 3. Anti-expansion of Clan space (regular forces) and 4 Psi-ops – how to bring the clans “trueborn” Vs. “freeborn” to a hostile state and “deprogramming “freeborn” to Inner Sphere Citizens ;
• The introduction of a new intelligence unit – aim – to find the Clans Home worlds.
Resumption of War (November 3051):-
• If Wolf’s Dragoons give up the timeframe or returning to clan space – elect a new ilkhan return to the IS (just over 1 year) – Would Steiner / Davion / Kurita resume the war before their leadership cast return?
• Would IS forces be able to quarantine (for a time at least) the returning clan forces from the IS?
• Also use partisans – Dest / MIIO / Loki plus commando teams to strike on multiple worlds at a predetermined date to kill any remaining command structure prior to a mass IS invasion.
• IS forces decide to not let the Clans dictate the time table.
• IS move more of their elite units from the Davion / Kurita border to the Clan border – have them train by using them as “OPFor” for more experienced units fighting the Clans – understand their tactics / weapons etc.
• Strategy retake those worlds in the periphery deny access to their resupply worlds or have they or are they in the process of moving them into / onto an inner sphere world thus making it a ‘target’.
• Note:- at this stage Hanse Davion / Steiner has additional forces to move around (former Capellan Confederation units).
• Also House Kurita has the most Clan Mechs / Salvage from the destruction of the Jaguars (?).
• Begin deep periphery reconnaissance? (Mercenary strike forces – Vengeance Class / Pocket Warships (uses of atomic mines at Jump points? Nt: FC zone Commanded by Morgan Hasek-Davion his second Susie “one-eye” Morgraine-Ryan )
• Change in IS Tactics – Use aerospace fighters against Clan Jumpships (specifically their engines) – why – all Clans have small number of commercial jumpships – disable these and they will be unable to re-commence their invasion on a large scale – plus their ability to perform maintenance is also restricted to mobile docks (a tactic that could slow down or even halt the Clan advance for a time – however this would also mean IS Jumpships would also become military targets)
Operation Containment:-
Six months into the Clan operation Shutdown both the Federated Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine launch the first wave to retake periphery border worlds – cutting off these Clans within the IS from the Supply routes.
Problem remains the number of warships of both the Nova Cat and Jade Falcon.
This is to coincide with partisan bombings / assassinations / infantry commando assaults upon lone “trinary” and below garrisons on all worlds within the occupation zone.
Targeting Clan transport jump-ships (i.e. disable their engines or capture intact).
The speed of the assaults surprises even the clans, finding themselves besieged by the local population, most clans attack, however the population is prepared (especially within Kurita Space) – detonating buildings to create kill boxes – luring elementals into buildings only to find them a trap – their arrogance / superiority proving their own downfall.
Upon the Bloodnamed return to the Inner Sphere the clans find a vastly different situation – Inner sphere units using either more advanced / clan weapons on a mass scale – the majority of all their overall merchant fleets have been either captured or destroyed – their only viable asses the Clan’s Naval Warships (though they are under constant threat of nuclear attack).
Though their forces are now besieged, and elemental forces have been reduced due to the introduction of commando troops, explosives, assassination, poisoning food / water –and whole worlds citizens are rebelling completely when the clans attempted to force their culture upon them in an attempt to destroy their very identity / religion and way of life.
They are also informed many “true-born” were seduced by the freedoms of an inner sphere life and have thus defected, individually or in groups on many worlds. Note Clan Merchant Caste would also smuggle illegal goods back to Clan Space (This could also have a detrimental effect upon the Clan population long term) as the Clan’s Merchant Caste have established trading with IS traders for certain “hard to find” goods.
ComStar have cut their access to communication via their HPG sites and had aided the Federated Commonwealth / Draconis Combine on the field of battle.
Worse yet the Deep periphery worlds of Cambridge and TJ239H2 have fallen to Federated Commonwealth Forces, Inner Sphere forces have also gained the knowledge of a complete map of the deep periphery and are acting accordingly.
Psi-ops and the Clans:-
With the capture of the Orbital Cargo Transfer Facility (at TJ239H2) – this provided a cross section of the Clan’s society.
Psi-ops teams began to question / deprogram them from a closed society to an open society – attempting to work out what works best.
Their aim – questioning the nature of the stratification of society being against the Star League Values Kurensky was attempting to protect during the Amaris Coup …. And ….. how would this affect their repressed culture ….
(Hidden aim – to start a civil war within Clan Space – Free-birth Vs. True Born)
Technical Clan – Bondsmen and Asylum Seekers:-
Many ex clan technicians (asylum seekers from the clans) are transferred to research and development teams to “assist” with the production of new more advanced weapon systems for ‘Mechs, Inner Sphere Elementals and aerospace fighters etc.
Other Factors affecting the Clan’s Resumption of War:-
Clan Smoke jaguar return to the Inner Sphere with their remaining forces?
Introduction of both Clan Nova Cat and Diamond Shark to the War, in an attempt to re-open their supply lines to their besieged units.
With the increased number of regimental combat teams on each targeted planet, their increased level of technology and the long supply chains are taking their toll on the forward momentum of the Clans Advance – necessitating more and more energy based weapon systems over those weapons that require consumables.
Even holding a planet is becoming even harder for the Clans as they do not have any experience with policing a population (threats and executions do not work) - ensuring civil compliance is reducing – and garrison security with only ‘Mechs and elementals are not suitable to ensure their bases overall security - increasing number of IS commando raids upon their bases is becoming more problematic.
Hence, has the Clans returned with vast numbers of armed security personnel / infantry units to protect their bases? (very un-clan like however this may be their only option). – only other option is to vastly increase the number of elementals as a security force?
Do their new security personnel have the capability of anti-insurgent warfare? (as time goes on they will have to get better at this or suffer repeated setbacks) or do they have the technology to stop insurgency upon their bases?
All Clans forward Momentum has slowed to a crawl – Clans begin to experience reversals as worlds are re-conquered by the inner sphere forces both at their front and in their rear as garrison units become increasingly under attack by IS forces.
Between 3052:-
Resumption of war zones ….
• Along the clan front (front line forces);
• Within the periphery (raids upon existing Clan supply bases and fleets attempting to reach the Inner Sphere) (Swashbuckling and Piracy)
• Within the clan occupation zone (IS insurgent force Vs. Clan Anti-insurgent force)
May 21st: Operation Revival:-
The Clan Invasion, officially halted with ComStar's victory on "Tamar". The truce between ComStar and the Clans stipulates that no Clan may advance beyond the "Tamar Line" for the next 15 years.
Nt: At this stage all Successor States must create the most advance weapons they can and in high numbers to defeat the Clans superior Range / Damage / Armor.
Wedding to unite the IS (?):-
June 3052 – Katherine Steiner Davion (age:20yrs) was wed to Michael Marik (age: 19 yrs) on Terra. The leaders of the various Inner Sphere, now gathered together, begins talks to accomplish peacefully what they had failed to achieve during centuries of war – The rebirth of the Star League. There they agreed on a single purpose – to end the Clan threat once and for all.
OR?
A marriage of Victor Steiner-Davion and Omika Kurita ? – the political ramifications of this would be vast not only with the Black Dragon Society but also with the Sandovals. (Very unlikely that Theodore would even contemplate this at this stage)
OR?
How can the Free Wolds League be brought into the Clan War / be the arms merchants to the Inner Sphere for the duration of the Clan War? Money – or is there something else?
The Commencement of the Re-birth of the Star League:-
Following the wedding (?) all sides commence discussions regarding the re-establishment of the Star League -
Arc-Royal defence cordon:-
By August 3052 – The Kell Hounds establish the Arc-Royal defence cordon with the approval of Archon Melissa Steiner, an anti-clan defensive zone centred on Arc-Royal.
The ‘New’ Red Corsairs:-
August 3052 – Additional ‘pirate’ forces are transferred to the periphery (with pocket warship dropships / mine layer dropships / Vengeance Class Dropships). Their aim is to restrict any additional personnel and material entering into the Inner sphere. Thus they increase the number of raids within the deep periphery clan space.
Rearmament of Inner Sphere Forces commences:-
The Clan occupation zone is being set ablaze with infiltration units:-
Clan Forces execute raids upon IS Worlds:-
My Time line included some of the following that may be of interest:-
3053
February – Word of Blake formally succeeds from Comstar and is given the world of Gibson in the Free worlds League.
June 19th: Corinne Marik is assassinated by a Gibson Radical re the introduction of the Word of Blake to their world (in reality an assassin hired by Katherine Steiner-Davion-Marik).
Michael Marik (Katherine’s husband) now becomes the new Captain General.
August: Isis Marik moves to < > (The Capital of the Federated Commonwealth) to be with Katherine Steiner-Davion.
December 15: Clan Wolf declares the Trial of Refusal to Clan Jade Falcon, thus starting the Refusal War … Natasha Kerenski dies in combat … The Creation of the Wolves in Exile … Death of both Clan Jade Falcon Khans Vandervahn Chistu and Elias Crichell after Vlad Ward challenges them in Trials for their respective actions … Vlad Ward recreates Clan Wolf from Clan Jade Wolf and is elected Khan of Clan Wolf … Marthe Pryde is elected Khan of Clan Jade Falcon …. Vlad Ward is elected Khan of Clan Wolf.
OR/-
At this stage The Arc Royal Defense Cordon could unleash a massive attack (say 50/75 RCTs minimum) within the Clan Occupation Zone – if timed correctly this attack could re-capture may worlds and significantly weaken the single clan Jade Wolf or the two separate ones
AT THE SAME TIME/-
As the Refusal War Wages within the inner Sphere Morgan Hasek-Davion Emerges from his secret Deep Periphery Base within the Chainelane Isles – from there he not only captures the second station at TJ239H2 he goes on to capture Cambridge, Wark, Wolf 82 and Trinity.
Whilst at the same time the Draconis Combine launch an attack from the Comstar facility TF4 and rout the forces, and capture, Bazaar, Gwithian and Nouveaux Paris.
Those Clan Forces within the Inner Sphere find themselves cut off from the Clan Home Worlds. (OR/- only limited numbers get through the blockade into the Inner Sphere).
3054
February 28th: Word of Blake begins assault on Terra (manual opening of all ‘Mech Bays – Computer lockdown (?) – there must be a manual override). However, by the end of May the Word of Blake forces are repulsed by a relief force from the Federated Commonwealth’s New Capital Planet.
March 15th-May 10th: Invasion of Coventry by Clan Jade Falcon.
June 5th: Victor Steiner-Davion arrives on Coventry with a multinational task force. Shortly thereafter, Clan Jade Falcon return to their Occupation Zone.
November 14th: Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht presents location of the Clan home-worlds.
3055
Early January - March 30th: The Star League is resurrected.
May 13th: Operation Bird Dog starts against the Inner Sphere Clans (all of them). (Over 100 FC Regiments; 70 DC Regiments; 40 CS Regiments; 9 FRR Regiments; 20 FWL Regiments and 5 DofA/MofC Regiments + multiple mercenary units)
(Think Clan Invasion – however in reverse and at the same time mass uprisings by partisan units hinder all Clan’s initial responses – including assassinations – acts of sabotage etc.)
May 20th:
The resurrected Star League launches Task Force Serpent – including Northwind Highlanders etc.
Clan Nova Cat and Ghost Bear moves most (all they are able to) of their assets to the Inner Sphere.
August 13th: Clan Nova Cat and Ghost Bear defects to the Star League which leads to their abjurement. Clan Nova Cat to the Draconis Combine and Ghost Bear to the Free Rasalhague Republic.
3056
November: The final IS Clan forces have been repulsed and their original borders have been returned
Price Victor Steiner Davion follows Task Force Serpent
March 2nd: Inner Sphere forces conquer Eden and Huntress.
April 9th: Conquest of Eden ends.
(NT: all infrastructure and computer cores etc. re all clan technology (plus key individuals) are returned to the Inner Sphere to create parity between Inner Sphere technology and that of Clan Technology within the next 20-30 years - If you believe they just destroyed their ability to create war and left ....... - I cannot rationalize this - the army has a duty to protect the IS and this can only be done with advanced Clan technology returning to the IS at this stage).
Clan Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguars are Annihilated (remember they have both received a beating within the IS and their forces are limited upon their home worlds).
April 23th: Great Refusal fought on Strana Mechty.
The Great Refusal ends in victory for the Inner Sphere, ending the Clan Invasion.
(Nt: at this stage Loki / MIIO / Dest psi-ops agents are released secretly into Clan society – once all Inner Sphere forces leave clan space they begin to distribute Commanding General Aleksandr Kerensky Documents / interviews etc + information regarding different political systems etc – The result of this will result in the Wars of Reaving – Civil War – Free Births Vs True Born as to how the political government should be run – i.e. a move away from a Dictatorship by the Military to either Communist or Democratic system with the military serving the people not the other way around)
3057 (onwards)
March 15th: Star League forces under the command of Victor Ian Steiner-Davion return from Clan space.
In his absence he discovers that both his mother, Melissa Arthur Steiner-Davion and Michael Marik have been assassinated – his, pregnant, sister Katherine Steiner-Davion-Marik as Regent Captain General of the Free Worlds League for her infant daughter Elizabeth Steiner Davion Marik is at war with her sister Yvonne Steiner-Davion Regent of the Federated Commonwealth for the throne of the Federated Commonwealth.
Even with the re-appearance of Victor the War continues on. Victor is forced to stand down as Yvonne becomes the ruler of the Federated Commonwealth. Or/- Does Victor step in and take back control of the FC (?)
Victor begins his investigations into the death of his mother Melissa and his brother in law Michael – he will over time come to the conclusion that his sister Katherine had them assassinated for her to become the defacto 1st Star Lord.
November 1st: Second Whitting Conference is held on Tharkad. Theodore Kurita is elected First Lord of the Star League after Victor becomes ComStar's Precentor Martial.
Katherine aligns herself with the Word of Blake. Civil War Continues between FC and FWL. (over time this will stop)
During this time Sun-Su Liao attempts to re-establish the Capellan Confederation on Sian – his cousin Kai Allard Liao kills him and destroys the mercenary unit Warrior House Liao.
Assume that over 10 to 20 years IS technology has been brought up to the same level of technology as that of the clans.
Assume, long term, that Katherine becomes the Leader for the World of Blake – jihad continues as per books?.
War continues between Clan Home Worlds and the IS Star League Forces (Commanded by Victor) – Border Wars between IS Forces – Disputes between Clans
? If Katherine’s assassins are successful in killing Yvonne – Victor re-emerges to become the FC Leader and the civil war starts up again
? Does Victor Marry Isis- prior to Yvonnes death – as he now has a claim to the FWL throne – does he end this once and for all and he absorbs them into the FC. (one step closer to the Star League)
? Does katherine’s use of assassins become common knowledge – FWL dissolves into multiple duchies all autonomous from one another as a result – hence multiple wars.
His (Victor’s) child marries the DC scion – they rule as the new “Camerons” of the Star League.
Then, Give it a couple of generations – to 3150 approx. – War again IS Star League – Deep Periphery – Naval / Aerospace / Mech etc – vs. the new Clans (post reeving) – as they have come full circle again to be-come the ilClan) (some people never learn).
This could be interesting – Deep periphery wars on multiple worlds between IS and Clan space – Large warship Fleet wars – battles for planets that are required for logistical – strategic reasons – Mech Battles – Elemental Units .
NT:- the HPG Blackout (in the future) would be completely ineffective within both FC and DC space as both realms, all their planets and their front line RCTs, would have a HPG Fax Machines. How modern the machine is would depend upon the strategic value of the planet / military unit (Nt: These units are not affected by the virus). Also Clan variant of these machines? – has this technology been integrated into the IS machines?
Would the Capellan Confederation be reborn from St Ives? – during the FC / FWL war or would it be finally be absorbed into either the FC or the FWL.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/08/18 08:35 PM
58.175.193.140
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Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/10/18 12:21 AM
58.175.193.140
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Consider the periphery supply bases
Think of the logistics that went into the D-Day landings – the Clans could not carry around all their own supplies and send requests back to Clan space for supplies (taking 6+ months to arrive) there had to forward supply bases within the periphery.
And think of the old axiom of war “make your enemy weaker by making yourself stronger” (ie. take their supplies / deny them their replacement personnel – use these to increase the fighting effectiveness of all IS forces).
Also consider when you are out there in space you are now part of a new wolf pack (WWII submarines) – who find the Clan convoy – use their Hanse Davion HPG Fax Machine - call up other elements – and attack (refer WWII convoys between America and England)
Whilst certain convoy routes would become known to IS Forces, as you know where the Clans Jumpships will pop out, you could also place mines there either to restrict their movements (where to jump next / inability to jump at all) or as a surprise attack before the main attack begins.
Then after the attack – take over the ship / crew / supplies / Dropships et al and plunder away.
Also if you are part of the Clan's how could you strike back at these treacherous IS Pirates of the Black Void?
(are you able to find Morgan Hasek-Davion's Tortuga Base of operations? )
This element was never applied within the original books and I believe it should have been - so have fun adding this to your game night.
Requiem, Adelaide Australia.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
04/10/18 01:15 AM
50.53.22.4
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Well, you *have* managed to nail down why the game began circling the drain with the Clan Invasion: It is so poorly thought-out and written, even a four-year-old knows it's a load of rubbish. The only reason it exists is: FASA realized it had written itself into a corner with 4SW -- it was "FedCom Uber Alles", which hacked off everyone who didn't play as Davion or Steiner (and the less said about the accusations of "racism", the better).
Really, FASA would have been better off combining the Clan Invasion with what eventually became the Jihad: Realizing the FedCom is a threat to its power, Waterly's ComStar turns loose the Com Guards on the FedCom, with support from DC, FWL, and CC; Waterly uses her "allies" as bullet-absorbers; then when they are sufficiently weakened (in her eyes), she backstabs them as well. For obvious reasons, FedCom and the other powers won't ally against ComStar; but all of the IS powers end up fighting, and eventually defeating, ComStar. Then follows the inevitable grabbing of power and plunder by the Houses -- and with no ComStar to moderate them....
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Requiem
04/30/18 08:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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Please now go to Alt. History: The Fist Clan Invasion 3050 to 3053 - a chronological timetable of the first war - that I have now expanded as a preview to a second campaign.
Please also let me know your thoughts regarding these posts.
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/10/18 09:20 PM
58.175.193.140
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Clan Forces are still an enemy force so ….
why, following the end of Operation Bulldog and Operation Serpent was there no thought to establishing a SLDF navy within the periphery as a forward patrol force and as an early warning detection force established against any second clan wave?
The writers should have finished off the Clan arc of the story as it stands now …. It is very disappointing …
The Clan War – could anyone written anything more Ludacris?
Reducing all the IS forces so they could not retaliate as they should have – put them back to their original sizes … would be a good first step …
Stand up fight did not work – so go straight to insurgent fighting …
FS / RR / DC form a united front against their mutual enemy
Reestablishment of the Star League (etc.)
The use of insurgent commandos to invade and assassinate Clan personnel on newly clan held worlds;
Make sure there are hidden forces and traps on all worlds within the clans advance corridor …
creation of an anti-elemental sniper rifle / armour penetrating rounds
IS Forces begin a program of engineering their own Omni Mechs / Omni fighters / elementals
Following Turtle Bay – DC use Kamikaze with nukes on all Clan Warships
IS begin retrofitting dropships into PT Vessels – Nuclear Ordnance / Mines and anti-warship missiles
Soon Thereafter FC starts using Nukes on also against clan warships – together with a new tactic – all IS aerospace fighters are to target Clan Jump-ship’s engines and sails to make them non-operational (slow their progress into the IS)
IS begin to manufacture small warships to complement their PT Dropship Vessels
Clans forward momentum is slowly contained
Personnel which have been either captured and/or deserters from the Clans together with their technology begin to be integrated into the IS forces
Establishment of IS Psi-ops teams to break Clan “true born” from their artificially created masters begins.
Establishment of IS Navy – they begin to invade the Periphery and deep periphery – stop all supply runs to Clan Forces / Capture all Clan supply and personnel and return to the IS with these forces / find their communication relay to Clan Space and cut it.
without communication to to Clan Space they are now effectively on their own – re-supplies / ammo / personnel begin to dwindle to alarming levels - Over time and many battles the remaining first Clan Invasion force becomes contained within the deep periphery
Operation Serpent is dispatched to attack the clan home world’s Capitol – SM
The final Stand of the IS Clans due to operation Bulldog
IS Forces begin to scour all Periphery and deep periphery worlds for hidden Clan bases
Operation Serpent reaches Clan Space and invades SM and other worlds – their objective – cause as much damage as possible – obtain as much technology as possible – factories data cores etc and return this to the IS with this booty!
Unexpectedly Operation Serpent fleet is aided by the Clan’s Dark Caste (their aims is to free all the people from their Eugenic Overlords and return the Clans to their SLDF Origin)
Due to Overwhelming force Operation Serpent and the Dark Caste retreat to their hidden bases …
As this was going on a second IS Invasion fleet is being assembled
A single/ small contingent of Operation Serpent Jumpship(s) is/are dispatched to warn the IS together with a coppy of all the Clans scientific / technical /medical etc knowledge on data cores.
A new front line is established within many uninhabited systems as both sides attempt to penetrate the others defensive line (Nt. IS forces now contain the WOB Jihad forces to deal with the clans)
Operation Serpent / Clan Dark Caste begin raids within the Clan space – freeing civilians gaining more troops – the resistance begins to expand
We now have two major war zones within deep space – within multiple systems each attempting to destroy the other thus either gaining access to the IS or to Clan Space.
Operation Serpent / Clan Dark decide to attack the Clan force in the rear (those attacking the IS) whilst simultaneously the IS forces attack – result Clan forces neutralised (about this time the IS is now at the same technologically level as that of the Clans)
The now combined IS / Operation Serpent / Clan Dark Caste force return to clan space and begin a war of liberating Clan space from their Eugenic Overlords.
After many years of war they succeed – Eugenics becomes outlawed etc
The new Clans returns to their SLDF roots an join with there is compatriots as members of the new SLDF
Whilst this was occurring in deep / clan space what was happening in the IS?
Members Of the new Star League included – FC – DC – FWL – RR - Andurien / Canopus Alliance – Comstar – SIC (Nt. CC were destroyed during the 3039 War)
Star Lord position is mainly ceremonial – SLDF cannot be utilized within the IS (unless against an external threat) – The 4 year position of First Lord of the Star League (goes through an order 1stDC, 2nd FC 3rd FWL 4th RR 5th DofA / MC 6th SIC 7th Comstar 8th any new member etc) – hence no voting required everyone has their position and gets a turn at it;
Political Intrigue to be included in the overall story?
- Whilst Victor is away Katherine takes over the FC – declaring herself as First Princess
- Sun-Tzu attempts a coup within SIC – stopped by his sister Kalie
- Sun-Tzu attempts to resurrect the CC – ultimately hunted down and killed before he is able to succeed
- Omika Kurita escapes the DC (pursued by the Black Dragon Society) and goes to be with Victor on the Front Lines when it becomes known she is pregnant with Victor’s child.
- War between DC and Victors forces over Omika and their child?
- Border raids still occur
- DofA and MC are involved in a war with TC
- New States are established within the Deep Periphery along the road to the Clan Home Worlds – Sponsored by DC, FC, FWL etc (Nt: these FC worlds are controlled by Victor not Kathrine!)
- Other issues?
- Katherine attempts to gain the title First Lord in perpetuity? When it comes back for the FC turn for the second time?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/10/18 10:59 PM
66.74.61.223
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First. The teachings of the clans was such that there was no need in their minds that the IS would offer more resistance to their trained military then the civilians on the home world would. The concept of long battles needed massive supplies was not done in a couple hundred years. Part of the problem with the Trials of possession and such.
The Trial of Refusal shown the clans did have supply depots through the route and kept if from all the others as well.
The IS was never one entity, so saying they could shift forces around to deal with the clans during the time frame they had very little clue on they were more then a good raid, with units found in an advanced depot is a bit off. As well as the training center for new warriors? I would suggest rereading how the clans trained their people. This suggests the entire history of the game isn't as understood as it needs to be. The clans make their warriors thru sibcos, not let people sign up and learn. Only those genetically better become warriors. This thinking is why they even fought for the right to invade. Unless the history of this is changed, there is no way, other then isorla or bondsmen, are you going to replace your losses in the IS. And even then, the bondsmen have to prove they are capable of it.
Sending in small teams would have done more to enrage the clans into more acts like Turtle Bay. It was extreme, but the clans would brutalize the populace of any commando style strikes against them. It is the brainwashing of their ways that would make this acceptable to them. Like it or not, that is a fact in the history of the clans. The need for replacement parts is the same thing. Though they were learning as they hit the stronger forces in the IS.
Command circuit. The quickest way to get the clans to your capital, by boarding the jumpships going there with elementals, then loading up with dropships. I like that one.
Depleted uranium is supposed to be the main shots for acs as well as any sort of armor piercing shots. To my knowledge, most military units would be using this to begin with.
Again, the fact the IS isn't one big happy family seems to be missing. The pirates were generally happy the IS was getting pounded by the clans. It was their dream to do it, but since they couldn't, the clans were the next best thing.
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ghostrider
06/10/18 11:20 PM
66.74.61.223
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The lack of jumpships and warships would prevent the IS from searching the Periphery and deep periphery for supply dumps. And remember. The clans removed jump information of ships traveling to and from the home worlds in order for those ships to get the next portion of the jump circuit. And that didn't stop the clans from having warships around some of the more exposed bases. Jump ship destruction was not part of the clans, though waste was. Boarding them so the IS would not have them was very preferable.
Doubt Susie Ryan would help the IS. Also the issue with clan tech in this time was the lack of anyone that could work on them, including maintenance. OR did they change this in the newer books?
Using nukes on the clans, yet suggesting it would never be done in another thread? Might be violating one of the rules here, so may get a ban.
Now the issues of all the new units. Where are they coming from? The warships in particular is a good question.
Using another alt history to further this one isn't good.
The Smoke Jaguars destruction was after the truce, so that is future time, not this current time.
As it was said in another thread, jumpships clear the area they are jumping into of debris such as mines, as well as trying to cover millions of square kilometers of space makes it impractical. Which is a change in the real history of the clans leaving things for any pursuers to deal with when the left. Explorer corps finds this out the hard way.
Some of the suggestions are assumed knowledge. The IS had NO way of knowing what happened to the clans. Any counter invasion may well have been set up by the clans, and they are waiting to eliminate any assets sent in to do such a thing. No intel as comstar was blocking it. And the black boxes were not already on world.
Destroying your own worlds for kill boxes? Scorched earth tactics?
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ghostrider
06/10/18 11:47 PM
66.74.61.223
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Psi-ops? Normally refers to psionic operatives. For those of us that don't know the term, would you elaborate?
The idea of a civil are in the clans from a short time frame is really showing the clan thoughts are not understood. There is no revolts in the clan worlds as the military holds the weapons and will use them to put down the dishonorable few that even try to stand up to them. This is not the IS where civil disobedience it tolerated.
The Arc Royal Cordon was made to remove a chunk of space from Katherine Steiner during the civil war era. It prevented use of the forces there as well as allowed them to stay out of the squabble for a while as they protected the LC portion from the clans.
If Victor did marry Isis, wouldn't he give the FWL access to the black boxes?
The history and the ways the entire governments of the IS and clans seems to be missing facts in this. Sending out forces in enmasse means trusting the others will not hit you, yet the entire history of the IS says it will happen. The lack of intel would make this even less likely, as you could send in your forces, only to find out the clans and their double jumping jumpships do not require much of a strong front line. Reinforcements would take care of any worlds that fell to the invasion as well as giving the clans access to rear, underdefended worlds and wide open paths to some of the more well known factories.
Number calculations is fine for some, but not for the masses that have to deal with the fall out. Alessandro Steiner ring a bell?
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wolf_lord_30
06/10/18 11:53 PM
74.214.54.153
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If you can get your hands on it, The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky has some very good information it it on how the Clans act and do what they do. These touch on several of the points you mentioned.
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Requiem
06/11/18 04:17 AM
58.175.193.140
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With no supply depots how can you wage a war when it takes half a year to get there – resupply via dropship? The amount of dropships required to undertake such a venture would have been massive and illogical – look at D Day – the planning that went into that one operation alone …… again how do you get replacement personnel, ‘mechs , ammo, spare parts etc. etc.
As for sibcos … they also allowed freeborn to be trained and undertake the trials …
This shows the writers were just writing for the sake of writing and not understanding the mechanics behind the scenes that are required to keep a military going – very poor understanding led to very poor stories that were written for an audience to accept it upon face value only … any attempt at understanding will lead you to question the stupidity of it all.
As for sending in small teams that would enrage the clans – isn’t this the point? – when you look at how they fight how they conduct themselves – they have none, none whatsoever a security force to guard their bases – the number of elementals brought with them are not enough – this is a failing that any commander would exploit – commando raids would be devastating as they have no clue whatsoever as to how to deal with it.
Yes they will have a temper tantrum and destroy cities / people like the good little Nazis they are – but the people would they not stand up and resist as all of their forbearers have done so in the past? Atrocities require atrocities as a response for this is the language that they can only understand - for if you go down this path then expect it in return – thus should not have the clan war been more like that of the Jihad war?
As for my anti-elemental rifle … all throughout history someone builds a better sword to that of a better shield then a sword destroys that shield then another and another … humanity is littered with one weapon system overcoming another to even the playing field … so therefore it is not a stretch of the imagination the IS would look to find a weapon that could kill an elemental at distance – as up close this becomes too difficult – hence the answer a sniper rifle that can penetrate their amour and kill them dead with one shot … not putting this in again shows the writers inability to understand military doctrine and thinking ….
Yes the IS is not one big happy family …. However history is littered with enemies coming together to destroy a common threat … and in this case the treat is the clans … they can and they would put aside their common hate to destroy the Clans. This would be achieved in reforming the Star League and the SLDF.
No the lack of Jump-ships would not preclude a search into the periphery – there are no records whatsoever as to the size of any IS navy except when Warships are being produced – so there is no evidence to say they couldn’t do it
First start with refurbished dropships that are turned into spy craft (large electronic surveillance to detect any clan base within system) then for armament a defence against warships – hence nukes.
Then you give them an attack force (to kill any security force) and then add a transport force to take any salvage back to the IS – all you need is about 10-20 teams of these small raider forces each from the FC and the DC – so be real they can do this not a problem! They would also have ex-pirates who would jump at the change to get out a pirate the clans ... either as refugees from the clan invasion or a prisoners (convicts) ....
As for Susie Ryan, her home, her family, everything she has ever worked for is gone and by the clans … when given the chance of possessing a 'letter of mark' and that of the chance for payback ….. she would take it in a heartbeat as she lives for vengeance it is the air she breaths.
Where is written that , “jumpships clear the area they are jumping into of debris such as mines?” – book and page no please? ….
The Black boxes would have been with every FC unit and on every FC world by 3050 – the only-thing stopping it would have been cost – as there is no way Hanse would leave the FC vulnerable to another Comstar interdiction (another hole in the original writings)
Psi-Ops – When using Psychology to destabilize an enemy militarily mentally – for me it was devising a way to start a civil war between those of eugenics and free born … rigid cast system .. no family … no freedom …. Those who hate their life because I was not born in an iron container … and born as a warrior … so how do you deprogram a clan person and get them actively hating their overlord? This is the task I gave them and yes you can bet they came up with a way to destabilize the clan’s society and with enough heat an pressure you will get a civil war.
Errrr. …. Totalitarian state …. they hold all the weapons hence all the civilians will not rise up ….. sorry but no …. Basic human nature here, there have always, no matter which society or in which time you point out, there have always been those that go against the norm and the rules …. Can anyone believe that an entire society has been so completely brainwashed into thinking that this is the best that it will ever be so I may as well just go along with it …. For if I don’t they will do this and that to me …. Really? … really? …. The desire for freedom is in us all it cannot be extinguished …. There would be a resistance to clan rule and that of being born through eugenics gives them the right to rule and tell us free born what to do! No, I cannot believe that and will not … the human spirit to dictate our own fate is stronger than that …. Thus the only question that can be asked is how many and how well organized would they be? For me the resistance is strong and is well armed just waiting for the chance to strike back … if others want to think of them as loners walking around just sulking … that is their choice.
As for a totalitarian reshine … my bet is when a population who venerates the kerenskie’s near to godhood is told the truth .. some may say no this is all lies, but others will question and others will recognise it for the truth … for once the seed of doubt is planted … more converts to the resistance. And once the warriors start purges (for this is all the know what to do) … there will be little left to do but to fight back ….. or to die as lambs to the slaughter.
Victor / Isis marriage – at that time neither of them were a head of any state so how could they give anything to the other’s state?
So, how does the process of concentrated weakness come into it? You have an offensive and defensive team and you attack what you can and defend what you can … it is just a matter of material available to achieve the goal.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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wolf_lord_30
06/11/18 08:06 AM
74.214.54.153
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Quote:
With no supply depots how can you wage a war when it takes half a year to get there – resupply via dropship? The amount of dropships required to undertake such a venture would have been massive and illogical – look at D Day – the planning that went into that one operation alone …… again how do you get replacement personnel, ‘mechs , ammo, spare parts etc. etc.
As for sibcos … they also allowed freeborn to be trained and undertake the trials …
This shows the writers were just writing for the sake of writing and not understanding the mechanics behind the scenes that are required to keep a military going – very poor understanding led to very poor stories that were written for an audience to accept it upon face value only … any attempt at understanding will lead you to question the stupidity of it all.
As for sending in small teams that would enrage the clans – isn’t this the point? – when you look at how they fight how they conduct themselves – they have none, none whatsoever a security force to guard their bases – the number of elementals brought with them are not enough – this is a failing that any commander would exploit – commando raids would be devastating as they have no clue whatsoever as to how to deal with it.
Yes they will have a temper tantrum and destroy cities / people like the good little Nazis they are – but the people would they not stand up and resist as all of their forbearers have done so in the past? Atrocities require atrocities as a response for this is the language that they can only understand - for if you go down this path then expect it in return – thus should not have the clan war been more like that of the Jihad war?
The invasion was thought to be over so quick, some of the Clans, like Smoke Jaguar did not believe they needed fresh supply lines. Wolf was more successful due in part to establishing a supply line to bring up fresh equipment. Also, the ones with better relationships with the merchant and scientist castes had an easier time with getting supplies and equipment. This again, hurt Smoke Jaguar especially.
Sibkos were harsh training environments and usually even worse for freeborns. They took the ones with natural abilities and honed them into deadly warriors. About only 4 or 5 out of a whole company of sibling would make it to their trial. It was less for freeborns, for the most part, especially depending on the Clan. And most of them would be assigned to garrison duty and second line mechs. The thing about the Clans, is they had really small numbers in terms of warriors. .01% is the warrior caste. But with their sibkos, they always had a new generation training, so it would not take years upon years to rebuild. The quality of mechwarriors was much more important than the quantity.
Clans have security forces. They are just not comprised of front line warriors or equipment. But even second line mechs are more than a match for most Inner Sphere pilots. The Smoke Jaguars had a hard time with insurrectionists. They bombarded a whole world once, even their own Khan and Jade Falcons condemned this act. It also contributed to their subsequent ouster of the Inner Sphere. Jade Falcons were forced to bring in Steel Viper and give them worlds in order to keep some of the planets they conquered secure and firmly in clan grasp. Nova Cats did the same with the Jaguars. Jade Falcon may have been harsh, but they were fair to their lower castes, and in the Inner Sphere, as long as they weren't challenged, they allowed day to day life to continue. In many places, citizens of a world could hardly tell that the ruling class had changed hands.
The Clans did not like to waste valuable materials and resources. Yes, they could raze whole cities and planets, but that was not the intent of the invasion. The purpose was to claim what they believed was rightfully theirs, and many, especially among the civilian castes believed that the Inner Sphere was an Eden compared to their homeworlds. Enraging Clans could result in massive destruction, but often times it just meant no mercy was given when they'd find the culprits of their hatred. Honor rules would be suspended to deal with the dezgra. Destroying whole cities to get at something was not an ordinary way of the warriors. Even if mad. Insurgents would annoy them and commando raids to. But they could be stopped. The Ghost Bears eventually stopped the guerilla warfare that the FRR was doing. It was frustrating to them that the enemy would not engage in a true fight, but they dealt with it. So no, commando raids would not be unstoppable and the Clans did have resources and the ability to deal with it, as well as garrisons.
Comparing the Clans to Nazis is way off base. They were nothing like them. And each clan ruled themselves differently than the next. So some, like the Jaguars, were harsh in their dealings with the lower castes. This cost them existing as a Clan too. Others, like Wolf, Coyote and Diamond Shark, allowed a lot of freedom between merchants and scientists to give their clan an edge. Ghost Bear was more open to the idea of family and sticking together. They were very fair in dealings with their caste system. Warriors were always at the top but in a Warrior society, of course they were. That doesn't mean that the other castes didnt have any sort of say in anything. If they were treated too harshly or ignored or executed, they would go along with what they had to, but deal in a Clan black market, or go to the dark caste, or even in some circumstances, be rescued by a Clan that saw what was going on and fight a trial for them. A happy caste that was treated fairly was more productive and helped the Clan out overall.
The Clans were molded after various ancient societies, like the Mongol horde, the 19th Century Chinese government, and others. This was done to break down the lines of nationality. Once the Clans had settled, before they were the Clans, problems started up again. Factions were drawn up based on societal and nationalistic lines. The whole concept the Clans was to do away with that, so the people would be loyal to their Clan, their Khan and the ilKhan.
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ghostrider
06/11/18 01:18 PM
66.74.61.223
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Another point to this is once they had so many issues with the IS performing the dezgra feats, they would open up the entire clans to invade the IS. Not the original 4, then add in the other 2. But the Steel Vipers came in to the Falcons area, not the ghost bears. The Falcons chased them out after a while, and fought several trials of possession for worlds to avoid the Vipers getting them.
The way clans treated the population of the worlds they took, seemed to mirror the Warden/Crusader thinking. I would also think the Dragoons reports tempered some of those very thoughts.
Now it is correct that there has not been a printed number of jumpships in the IS. Yet to even move troops around, it was always suggested there were not enough to do so properly and still keep commerce running right. The FS was destroying their economy in the 4th war to destroy the CC. So with all this, it is possible, though highly unlikely, they might have a few to spare.
Comstar did search for things, and even when they finally turned against the clans, did not have this information.
The concentrated weakness came in when you suggested the IS send everything to the clan borders. The leaders were not all knowing of what they faced. Again. Knowledge of the player verses in game intel comes into play.
And with this, the lack of knowing the clans did have forward depots seems to be missing. They had them. They were not adequate to the task at hand.
The idea of what the populations would do seems a bit biased with supporting things that only works with the alt timelines.
The basis for what they would or wouldn't do is based on the past. Human nature being what it is, someone in a hostile area that is known to kill dissidents, would not be out protesting things. They may stick their necks out in covert strikes, but otherwise would keep to themselves. Best way to keep alive and family safe.
As for the clearing of jump ship targets. Cray had posted about that a while back. As BMR, the original Aerotech, and jumpships and drops ships are the basic limit to my space information, I am relying on that to be truthful.
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wolf_lord_30
06/11/18 01:38 PM
74.214.54.153
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I meant that the Vipers were in Jade Falcon territory. Thanks for pointing that out. I also forgot about Diamond Shark being thrown into the mix as well.
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ghostrider
06/11/18 02:07 PM
66.74.61.223
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Space mines placed too close to a planetary body risk being pulled in by gravitational effects, while those located inside the K-F field generated by incoming JumpShips are automatically destroyed before they have the chance to inflict damage.
Tactical Operations, p. 366, "Space Mines (Space)"
I want to say this is what he was referring to.
It would make sense that destroying things and not removing the debris that would materialize in the ship would be in order, though this counters the whole issue of Kerensky leaving crap in the jump points behind them to discourage pursuit or even following the SLDF at a later time, as Comstar was doing.
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Requiem
06/11/18 06:37 PM
58.175.193.140
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Mines – again with a literal definition thinking of a WWII ship contact mine? …. Where there is an engineer there is a way forward – so if the mine is within the K-K Field generated by an incoming Jumpship they are automatically destroyed before they have the chance to inflict damage - OK.
But if they are not within the K-F Filed and are resistant to the stress-wave a Jump causes in the surrounding space (what approx 27Km only?) and it can act like the old Space mines ie. they can detect a ship and move under their own power and may also include stealth amour making it almost impossible to detect after a jump – but that does not really matter considering the range they have to kill a ship and their crew.
Have a read of the webpage entitled Atomic Weapons – re: atomic weapons in space and the following web page
https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/...rder-to-survive
“A one megaton Enhanced-Radiation warhead (AKA "neutron bomb") will deliver a threshold fatal neutron dose to an unshielded human at 300 km”
“The survivability range of nuclear bombs scales (roughly) linearly with bomb yield and as the inverse square of distance between bomb and victim. Meaning a 1 mton bomb would be borderline survivable at a range of ~900 km due to X-ray flux”
Keep reading re NASA's report on Nuclear Weapon Effects in Space.
So how far does a K-F Field expand to? So all I need to be is within say 100miles depending upon the warhead and yield and adios muchacho.
So mines ARE viable weapons in space a K-F filed does not expand out that far but a nuke (depending upon its warhead) even with a warship with heavy shielding will be able to it kill when within their range at a max of approx. 100miles (again depending upon type and yield)!
But if you say their shielding will stop the Neutrino / X-ray Flux, thus you need to be within the main blast to takeout a ship – OK then let us consider using a 50mt Tsar or even the 100mt warhead. These would be able to kill the skip with a blast radius starting at 30Km and going outwards from there – so still mines are a viable weapon against warships you just need them to get within range (that of 30Km / 40Km approx.) and then explode at this range, beyond that of a K-F Filed entry field or their entry shock wave, for a nuke to be very lethal to a warship.
Your thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/11/18 07:22 PM
58.175.193.140
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Supplies –
Quote: “Smoke Jaguar did not believe they needed fresh supply lines”
The Smoke Jaguars entered the IS with 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
38 Jumpships only!
How many tons of food / ammunition / spare parts etc would you need to store in their holds to conduct the invasion?
Remember you need food/water for a minimum of 6-7 months for everyone to start off with – all crew, ‘Mech pilots, elementals, technicians, medical etc (then they would need to re-supply food from IS stores for everyone?)
After that you can deduct this amount and how much space would be left for ammunition et al.?
Not very much at all would be very accurate figure, if there are no immediate re-supply – then you are expected to conduct military action on what 100 plus worlds to reach terra – still no re-supply because it will be over sooooo quickly?
Plus we don’t expect any real casualties during the invasion – so we don’t need any replacement pilots etc.
What were they expecting as their force depletion rate calculation would be – near nil? Get real …
So what do we learn from this – The Smoke Jaguars ….
Didn’t need food for six months to get to the IS as all the space was need for ammo spare parts etc.
Had enough ammo to fight on 100 worlds plus to get to the IS world of Terra 1st
Didn’t need replacement personnel as no one would die in combat because the IS were so backwards etc.
So once they got here – how long before they needed a resupply ammo ? – how long before they experienced massive pilot shortage because they were assassinated / poisoned / captured / killed in combat
How long before the IS began to targeted their jumpships making them inoperable – do they even have space parts for a Jumpship engine?
Be real this is ridiculous …. The amount of supplies required to keep an army in the filed on food alone would be a very high tonnage amount then when you factor in ammunition spare parts space mechs etc they do not have the space without a re-supply mission
And with a supply fleet the IS has a chance to capture / destroy this? Thus depleting their ability to continue to fight …
Also how often will you need this fleet to come to the IS (remember it takes 6 mnths plus just to get to the IS) – thus realistically every two months every clan would need a resupply fleet sent just to keep them in the field with everything they need – if you consider this a good way to conduct an invasion can I laugh now?
No realistically, they needed forward resupply depots within the periphery – these should have been raided by IS forces during the war – again we have writers writing a story that is expected to be accepted on face value ….. re-write please because this does not make any sense whatsoever!!!!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/11/18 07:38 PM
58.175.193.140
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The Clan’s
Member of a totalitarian government……..yes
Advocates territorial expansion ………….yes
Anti-IS (type of people)...…………………yes
Engages in Eugenics (race) – supremacy …yes
Has been involved in mass purges of civilians ……yes
Sometimes Offensive. a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to regulate a specified activity, practice, etc. ……yes
Remind you of anyone? (have a look at the definition?) …. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck … the in all probability it is a duck!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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wolf_lord_30
06/11/18 11:06 PM
74.214.54.153
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Quote:
Supplies –
Quote: “Smoke Jaguar did not believe they needed fresh supply lines”
The Smoke Jaguars entered the IS with 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
38 Jumpships only!
How many tons of food / ammunition / spare parts etc would you need to store in their holds to conduct the invasion?
Remember you need food/water for a minimum of 6-7 months for everyone to start off with – all crew, ‘Mech pilots, elementals, technicians, medical etc (then they would need to re-supply food from IS stores for everyone?)
After that you can deduct this amount and how much space would be left for ammunition et al.?
Not very much at all would be very accurate figure, if there are no immediate re-supply – then you are expected to conduct military action on what 100 plus worlds to reach terra – still no re-supply because it will be over sooooo quickly?
Plus we don’t expect any real casualties during the invasion – so we don’t need any replacement pilots etc.
What were they expecting as their force depletion rate calculation would be – near nil? Get real …
So what do we learn from this – The Smoke Jaguars ….
Didn’t need food for six months to get to the IS as all the space was need for ammo spare parts etc.
Had enough ammo to fight on 100 worlds plus to get to the IS world of Terra 1st
Didn’t need replacement personnel as no one would die in combat because the IS were so backwards etc.
So once they got here – how long before they needed a resupply ammo ? – how long before they experienced massive pilot shortage because they were assassinated / poisoned / captured / killed in combat
How long before the IS began to targeted their jumpships making them inoperable – do they even have space parts for a Jumpship engine?
Be real this is ridiculous …. The amount of supplies required to keep an army in the filed on food alone would be a very high tonnage amount then when you factor in ammunition spare parts space mechs etc they do not have the space without a re-supply mission
And with a supply fleet the IS has a chance to capture / destroy this? Thus depleting their ability to continue to fight …
Also how often will you need this fleet to come to the IS (remember it takes 6 mnths plus just to get to the IS) – thus realistically every two months every clan would need a resupply fleet sent just to keep them in the field with everything they need – if you consider this a good way to conduct an invasion can I laugh now?
No realistically, they needed forward resupply depots within the periphery – these should have been raided by IS forces during the war – again we have writers writing a story that is expected to be accepted on face value ….. re-write please because this does not make any sense whatsoever!!!!!
First of all, you do realize that the invasion was planned in waves, right? So stop with the thinking that the Clans were going to go all the way to Terra without resupplying. Secondly, The Jaguars set themselves up to fail. That is what I was getting at. They did not plan ahead. But, it is stated that the Clans did make Periphery worlds as staging posts, meaning they would have had some surplus, a base of operations and more of a strategy. What, with the Clans rolling all opposition, makes you believe that the Inner Sphere could mount a successful attack on Clan bases? Deep raids like that just don't happen much, if memory serves, and are not that successful. A deep raid against the Clans and their superior aerospace force and warships would not end well.
Also, the Clans were moving fast. They didn't need whole clusters to take over a world. All they needed was a trinary or two for a lot of worlds. They bid down their forces for the most honor, but this would preserve a large part of their fighting force.
Lastly, you really need to try to take a step back from all of this and complaining about the authors messing up. It is a sci fi game. Sometimes, realism gets suspended so a story can move forward. Authors might not think of everything. They might not want to go over the tedium of what it really takes to do a massive invasion. They probably figured all of those jumpships and dropships and warships would have enough storage space for food and equipment.
And to address your last post about the Clans. It doesn't seem like you've really done much research on them. The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, The Invading Clans, FM: Wardens, FM: Crusaders, Wars of Reaving, Jade Falcon and Wolf sourcebooks, Operation Klondike, The Golden Century. Lots of books just dedicated to the Clans. They are good reads and have lots of good information. From what I have read on your posts, you have read only a little bit on the Clans, and then based your opinions on that. Maybe you should try to do that before you condemn them for being so horrible.
Sometimes, some of the information isn't always clear and it muddies the water. Individualism versus Clan identity. Honor of the duel versus large scale engagements. It's a pull of what the Clan stands for going against their human nature. You seem to forget, they are still human. They have foreign ideals and odd ways of looking at things, but they are still very human. The Wolves and Ghost Bears and Star Adders are a lot different than Smoke Jaguars and Jade Falcons and Ice Hellions. Trying to lump them all together to prove a point, trying to compare them to Nazis is more than misplaced. I'm not even the biggest fan of the Clans, but they fascinate me with their alien ways. And the fact I cannot play them very good. I am an aggressive player and the Clans rushing into medium to short range against a numerically superior foe, is not great, especially when I try to abide by one target per 'mech and no physical attacks, no getting behind them. And your points could be applied to almost any Inner Sphere house.
Also, the Clans didn't hate the Inner Sphere. Some thought they were protecting them from themselves, others were jealous of their worlds, believing they had better lives than they did. Some of them chose to believe they were weak and unfit to rule. Or cowards. Not quite the same as hating them or trying to eradicate them. Again, they were based on the 13th century Mongols, Shogunate Japan, and 20th Century China (not 18th like I misspoke before) which provided the model for Clan society as a whole. And those cultures had brutality, just like any other culture. They dealt with how to handle uprisings, family structure, fostering children as your own, keeping power to only a select few, military might, and so on.
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ghostrider
06/11/18 11:57 PM
66.74.61.223
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Not sure how the game deals with nukes in space outside of the jump ships envelope. It is possible to radiate the entire area into killing all that enter. That makes it useless to all sides. And using nukes contradicts your statement of the CC not using them to defend themselves in another thread.
As the only 38 jumpships is assuming a few things. I would think Monoliths packed with Behemoths or Mammoths would be fine, especially if they form a command chain to and from the home worlds. And from the sounds of it, it did seem like they had specific routes done by the ships, not a continuous one way then the other. Figure 2 weeks without lithium batteries for a round trip. Load/unload during recharge. And as stated, the Jaguars were not the brightest with foresight into the invasion.
Now how much of those food supplies and such were they expecting to liberate while in the innersphere?
The type of warships would determine the military side of what they bring. The cargo on the warships could well have had the spares they thought were needed for their trial of possessions they thought would be the norm. So it was a hole the writers had to avoid the IS from being destroyed that much quicker. Stupid? Yes. Purposeful? Seems that way.
As for numbers, most forget the clan cluster is about 45 mechs. Not the 108 for the IS. So the amount of supplies for the troops is lessened with the smaller units. The number of elementals if much smaller then a company of normal troopers I want to say 75 for a trinary, but probably off.
Lump sum of all clanners being anti IS was completely wrong. The wardens were not so.
There is one thing that I will differ and point out about the clans and how they were supposed to fight. Long range, using superior skills was the key. Medium range? Only if you didn't have weapons for longer range. Only the grand melee was opt to have physical combat as a norm. Or fights that got out of hand. And most fights in a battle were one on one. So that stopped alot of the cheap shots.
One last thing for now. Why are you suggesting the Jaguars were going to take 100+ worlds themselves? There were four clans in the initial invasion. With their thoughts of the IS, they could very well do double jumps and still have plenty of forces to take terra. It was battling other clans that they thought was going to bleed them dry of units. Not the IS.
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wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 12:26 AM
74.214.54.153
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Quote:
There is one thing that I will differ and point out about the clans and how they were supposed to fight. Long range, using superior skills was the key. Medium range? Only if you didn't have weapons for longer range. Only the grand melee was opt to have physical combat as a norm. Or fights that got out of hand. And most fights in a battle were one on one. So that stopped alot of the cheap shots.
I was describing how I play Clans a little too aggresively. I know they have a range advantage, but I like to close in. I don't like backpeddling or dancing around in circles, or even not moving, staying at long range while my opponent struggles to move into range. I like going toe to toe. And that is a very bad idea when they outnumber you three to one. And I really miss physical combat. I try to play them like I think they would actually fight, and I find it difficult to a lot of times.
Unfortunately, the one on one fight as all clans abiding by is kind of a misconception. Some uphold it very strictly, like the Jade Falcons. A large battle will break down to individual duels. But... and this is where I start to get confused, it is mentioned how sometimes another Clan will fight with zellbrigen a lot more loosely. They mention flanking maneuvers and other such stuff and not giving up the advantage of numbers. Things that wouldn't happen if it was just dueling. And then it flops around saying how sometimes a commander will fight the champion of the other side as a way for glory, honor and a quick win. It is frowned upon when lost and sometimes even when won, but then again, how smart it was. Oh, but if this commander was shot and killed then all bets were off and they fought ferociously, tearing apart their foes. There are several instances like this. And it does get a little confusing. I will freely admit that.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 01:49 AM
66.74.61.223
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The one on one does allow flanking maneuvers, as once the enemy is freed up, you just fire on them. So it isn't as honorable as they want it to sound. And using a Dire Wolf to take out a Firemoth isn't what I would consider honorable. Yeah hitting it is the issue.
Also, it isn't always done with single combat. Just preferred.
But I got back on as more thoughts came up on this thread. First off, the I think the CC is more of the horrible hate mongers of the universe then even the worse crusaders were. Or so the novels seem to hint at. It all seems to depict the CC as those in power do what ever they want to those out of power.
Now about the clans and their populace. The problem with trying propaganda with them is 250+ years of military teachings with NO alternative narrative available. There were NO such thing as a free society for them to be envious of. Only other clans. So thinking a revolt would be easy to accomplish misses this completely. Nothing in their lives except the dark caste, would be available to show freedom in any form. Other then picking in the limited choices you have given to you.
I think you might take offense in this, but the context of the 38 jumpships made me think it was suggested those were scouts carrying Clan Leopards. I don't know why.
And this also doesn't seem to think the Diamond Sharks did not have ships ready to sell supplies to the others, even though they were not part of the invasion until later.
It was said the exodus traveled for a year before finding the home worlds, yet the did alot of scouting of systems while doing so. It was probably asked before, but I will ask again. Was that a full year straight out as fast as you can jump? Or is the clan worlds closer as they zig zagged while traveling?
This would affect the time it takes to get there and back.
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wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 02:15 AM
74.214.54.153
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I have my book right here so I can answer the travel question for you at least.
February 3049 advance clan units depart for IS
August 3049 First contact between advance Clan units and Periphery forces.
I think that it is easy to get hung up on the word free. It is true that most people couldn't choose what they did, but that didn't mean quality of life was bad. Certain Clans treated the lower castes better than others. Some were allowed more freedoms, more autonomy, even differing levels of education (I want to say. Don't quote me on the last one). And they were given work credits to eliminate the need for money, and thus further keeping the castes dependent on the Clan, but again, this doesn't mean that they didn't have a good way of life. It was just looked down on because of being a militaristic society. The better the laborer caste and technician caste were treated, the more output and higher morale and less stalling they would give the warriors. Merchants worked and traded better with other Clans if they were treated fairly. If not, they wouldn't acquire materials necessary for the warriors and then trials had to be fought if the warriors really needed whatever it was.
So yeah, while they weren't free, and that was the only way of life they knew, it was still a symbiotic relationship between the different castes. Even the dark caste had their place. A place for misfits to go to, for malcontents, for those who failed and couldn't integrate into a lower caste. And it provided training for the warriors to go pirate hunting if they ever got too unruly.
I don't know if I agree with the CC being the worst one. They did pull some pretty crazy stunts, but I do remember that the DC suppressed their population a lot, and murdered mercenary families.
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Requiem
06/12/18 07:23 AM
58.175.193.140
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First you do realize the entire writing of the Invasion is complete BS? Read the invasion book – is the same battle over and over there if no flexibility no change in tactics whatsoever …. (only in rare occasions did it change) ….. as a leader / tactician if you do the same thing over and over expecting a change in the results and not getting a change in results, what can think of them … possibly a WW1 General?
My point is the writing is completely and utterly wrong, why is that what is written is considered absolute and factual? … can anyone explain this?
As for saying it is difficult to mount a periphery campaign – then how did the North-wind Highlanders do it and how did the Kell Hounds do it – Phelan getting captured ring a bell or two?
This is my point …. If it can be done by mercenaries then it can be done by the main armies and thus should have been written in … as an army they should have raided the enemy for advanced weapons systems within the periphery and the deep periphery. Not including this is so wrong on so many levels ….. go-on explain why they couldn’t do it?
Clans have superior aerospace – have a look again
Clan Wolf –582 fighters; Jade Falcon –584 fighters
FS RCT fields a full Regimental Wing – 60 Fighters each / Regiment + in addition to that there are also Naval wings of fighters – (Pg. 23 Field Manual Federated Suns).
How easy would it be to pull 6 Regimental wings together and put them in advance of the Clan assault where they are attacking what 4-5 worlds each wave on average? Therefore they are down to what 100 fighters each – they may be good but with 5 to one odds they are not that good – also if you send half against the fighters while the other half attack their Jump-ships? What if we had the DC doing this with Kamikaze and small nukes? How long will the clans survive then? – let me guess, the books never wrote that so it could never happen ……
As for the warships …. Again … nuke them! … as stated in previous writings they are too dangerous thus we must invade the DC and not the CC ….. if they are that dangerous why not just remove them from the board?
As for moving fast … again this is why the IS would use any means possible to slow their assault … thus attacking their transport (Jump-ships) would not be out of the norm …. Slow them down … prepare forces in their advance …. Attack their rear ….insert commandos kill squads …. Attack their supply lines … show me general who would not do this – they would soon be on charges of dereliction of duty / cowardice in the face of the enemy - put them against the wall!
QUOTE: “Lastly, you really need to try to take a step back from all of this and complaining about the authors messing up. It is a sci fi game. Sometimes, realism gets suspended so a story can move forward”.
Again …. Defender of the Status Quo … all the best writers spend vast amount of time getting it right …. Pulp writers (Hacks) … should be shown the error of their ways … how do you expect them to get better as writers? Again this is stating we all should just go along with whatever is written no matter what … sorry but I can let it go when such a huge hole is created by poor writing and being lax on due diligence / fact checking. Isn’t this why I created this discussion – why the writing was so bad and perhaps what should happened?
My lack of research on the Clans? I can say the same, how’s the research going on “Ducks”? – First look at The psychological paper, book and film entitled ‘The Wave’. Then look at a couple dozen of the Nat. Geo Docos on all their areas. Then read a couple of the Books of the subject – once finished – Have a real good look at Smoke Jaguars first – I still find a “duck” (Turtle Bay and the death of the old man there? – Russia WWII?) – if they are not “a duck” then what would you describe them as? Fascist … yes? But then which one? What about the Sibkos (H. Youth) – Eugenics (Arianism) – Totalitarian Government and How they treat their lower castes? (you work for the state and do what we tell you to do) – the three levels – the leader the military and the state nothing else matters? Etc etc. there are too many similarities not to call them “Ducks” …. And then what about all the other Clans … are they just different shades of “Ducks”? as for being human – “ducks” were also human and look at what they did …. No Clan Wolverine were the only ones to see the truth and the only ones with the balls to act …
QUOTE: they were based on the 13th century Mongols, Shogunate Japan, and 20th Century China ….
Sorry No, Mongols – freedom of religion, nomadic etc? Shoganate (which period – edo?) where are the arts, literature, philosophy? 20th Cent China (early, Mid or late 20th Cent?) – how can you pick and choose from these and say you have a harmonious culture it is like adding oil to water …. How can anyone say the Clans are multicultural in origin?
QUOTE: And using nukes contradicts your statement of the CC not using them to defend themselves in another thread.
OK … the CC can use them! However we are talking about two distinct periods of time with two radically different people / cultures / values – so my question still remains would they (CC)? And what would be the ramifications down through the ages from one generation to the next if the CC did use them? (my view – your view the two will never agree on this…. Yes)
Supply runs … two weeks …. Really?
So what about the time it took the IS Clan Spy to get home to the clan worlds then return to the IS and give them the road (map) to the Pentagon Worlds? …. Thus the invasion of Huntress was achievable…….that took a little bit longer than two weeks didn’t it?
QUOTE: “Lump sum of all clanners being anti IS was completely wrong. The wardens were not so”.
Then can I ask why even the wardens had re-education camps? (Battletech Comic) they loved the IS so much they invaded the IS and caused death and destruction on what level? …. Let me guess they had honour and bid forces away to minimise damage … again this is BS writing…. Sorry can’t agree, then what happened next when worlds were given over to their new overlords who had no experience at running worlds …. Plague on one world by not faming the medicine required to stave of the plague comes to mind …. How about the others? Again in reality you would be looking at WWII – Russia / France / China on these worlds post invasion ….. anything else is just poor writing.
QUOTE: “Now about the clans and their populace. The problem with trying propaganda with them is 250+ years of military teachings with NO alternative narrative available. There were NO such thing as a free society for them to be envious of. Only other clans. So thinking a revolt would be easy to accomplish misses this completely. Nothing in their lives except the dark caste, would be available to show freedom in any form. Other then picking in the limited choices you have given to you”.
So this is factual? …. My Degrees that included psychology courses and international business courses would say otherwise when looking at a society as a whole …. When has there ever been a society who has been so completely indoctrinated? …. As for a revolt - as slaves there will come a time to revolt …. I am Spartacus! (The Dark Cast could be way bigger than anyone ever thought and on worlds hidden to all Clan forces? Who is to say this is wrong? …. Let me guess I believe the book and the book says this … and the book is never wrong!)
Though I did not say it would be easy to accomplish … what I did say that with the help of Operation Serpent the dissidents decided to attack…. As to the scale of this attack, this would be up to the writer of the story to work out would it not? …. So how interesting do you want it to get would be a better question (the Rebels in SW as a template / Exo Squad as a template / other template forces?) to ask?
Again I can only say the current writing is sub. Par. … there was no fact checking in spots… the story was ludicrous as it did not take into account variables that should have been included…. No, It would be better for all to just start a rewrite … I know no one will agree with me now … but this in my opinion and I am sticking to it as I believe the fans would appreciate a good re-write once it was in their hands …. And they began to read it …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 10:48 AM
66.74.61.223
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Lets see. Why do you change how you fight if it is working so well to something that might not win you battles? It does lead to the one trick pony, but when the enemy can't do much against it, then it is the standard routine.
And when you do it with about half of the enemies forces, well, that makes it even more impressive. Especially the win column.
Factual? It is a sci fi game. Facts are not a strong point. As much as suggested, the writers win in any argument against them, as they are making money. I hate the lack of continuity in more then a few things, as well as some of the bs that was thrown in to see what would stick and make even more money.
Saying they are wrong, then insisting another version is the only correct one isn't going to change this.
Might need to reread the thread a bit better. SCOUTING the periphery for bases is difficult. Launching attacks on a KNOWN base is much different. And as suggested before. Finding a warship patrolling the area is why it is dangerous to being with, but even more so, trying to find a couple of worlds among hundreds of worlds, isn't easy. The IS is supposed to lack jumpships, so wasting the few you have looking for bases is not something that will happen. Elementals can take your jumpship with relative ease. And with that, the IS does NOT have HPGs on their ships. Forget the black box. You do need training and skills to use it. Also range is another factor with them.
As am army, the IS was protecting it's lands from an enemy that was less numeric, but far superior to the average joe in the armed forces. And add in their tech superiority, that had far less people doing research then possibly even the CC, says the concept there is out the window. Granted the lack of highly destructive wars helped there.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 11:03 AM
66.74.61.223
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Point in order for the math. Having hundreds of fighters means strategic superiority, but how many of those were facing the clans at one time?
How many of them were so far behind in tech, they died before firing a shot. Tactical superiority allows the clans to destroy what they face, and that isn't including the warships used to destroy any fighter carriers they might have with them. The clan dropships are superior for the most part, though the stupidity of not having weapons in one of the firing arcs on the overlord c was bad.
Again, the lack of understanding, you can not move units on a whim. Just because you are being invaded, does not mean the rest of the IS is going to let you deplete your forces with them and not take advantage. The CC and FWL wanted the FC to bleed. They would eventually spread the enemy out enough for their forces to hit. Yeah, this is the alt were the CC dies. So the FWL would definitely sit back and let the FC and even DC bleed dry. Makes it easier for them to dictate terms with being the new first lord. Oh wait. That would mean Marik didn't give up that idea for himself. As it was said. The clans did not have the forces to deal with hundreds of worlds. Soon they would be too spread out.
Still missing the idea of having all the information at hand, making choices and saying they were wrong when you have all the facts now, not then.
The demand to use nukes means you are looking to start a war that will destroy the entire FC, as the clans will retaliate, and you WILL HAVE to nuke your own worlds as they will bombard them all from orbit. The clans have the option to come in at almost anywhere in the IS. They chose the FRR area following their footsteps back. And using nuke on the clans will start a chain reaction as those in the IS view some leaders worse then the clans. So your 1st war fears will arise. Saying it wouldn't means no comprehension of the human psyche. There are those that would view any house leader using them has lost their minds, and set one off to remove that threat.
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wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 11:14 AM
74.214.54.153
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Quote:
First you do realize the entire writing of the Invasion is complete BS? Read the invasion book – is the same battle over and over there if no flexibility no change in tactics whatsoever …. (only in rare occasions did it change) ….. as a leader / tactician if you do the same thing over and over expecting a change in the results and not getting a change in results, what can think of them … possibly a WW1 General?
My point is the writing is completely and utterly wrong, why is that what is written is considered absolute and factual? … can anyone explain this?
It happened quickly, and it wasn't the same tactics over and over. The IS learned to rely on ambushes and falsifying information by October. The Clans ran through them in the beginning, there was no time for changing tactics as fast as you would like them to.
One more thing to consider is that the Clans did not hit until the March of 3050. After Leo Showers was killed in October, they didn't come back until October of 3051. By then, the IS had their meetings, set aside a lot of differences and learned how to fight better from Wolf's Dragoons. By May of 3052, it is over. This is a very fast campaign that is over. So I don't see where you are complaining about any sort of timeline issue. The IS were able to mount a successful defense and stall the Clan invaders within 2 years, and they had a year of peace in between the invasion.
In summary, they were hit hard and fast, lost a lot of worlds. Struck a blow. Had a year to prepare. Stopped the invasion.
Yes, it is written by the creators, therefore it is canon. It is what keeps everyone on the same page. If you don't like it, implement house rules or different paths of history in your own group.
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As for saying it is difficult to mount a periphery campaign – then how did the North-wind Highlanders do it and how did the Kell Hounds do it – Phelan getting captured ring a bell or two?
Phelan was hunting pirates and was captured by Wolf while doing so at the very beginning of the invasion. As far as merc units performing suicide runs, they can get paid to do that. A house couldn't afford to just throw away troops.
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This is my point …. If it can be done by mercenaries then it can be done by the main armies and thus should have been written in … as an army they should have raided the enemy for advanced weapons systems within the periphery and the deep periphery. Not including this is so wrong on so many levels ….. go-on explain why they couldn’t do it?
They couldn't raid them. They were on the defensive for the 3050 waves. You can't just say, oh, we keep losing battle after battle. Let's not shore up our defenses and go on the offensive against an enemy we haven't been able to beat.
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Clans have superior aerospace – have a look again
Clan Wolf –582 fighters; Jade Falcon –584 fighters
FS RCT fields a full Regimental Wing – 60 Fighters each / Regiment + in addition to that there are also Naval wings of fighters – (Pg. 23 Field Manual Federated Suns).
How easy would it be to pull 6 Regimental wings together and put them in advance of the Clan assault where they are attacking what 4-5 worlds each wave on average? Therefore they are down to what 100 fighters each – they may be good but with 5 to one odds they are not that good – also if you send half against the fighters while the other half attack their Jump-ships? What if we had the DC doing this with Kamikaze and small nukes? How long will the clans survive then? – let me guess, the books never wrote that so it could never happen ……
Pulling units and massing them together takes time. It's not like the Inner Sphere had any time to prepare for the invasion. It was thrown on them. So putting together a massive aerospace fleet and using it to attack en mass wouldn't be able to happen within a couple of months. The Lyrans were not the best fighters or generals, their union with the Federated Suns was still fairly new. The Draconis Combine was not working with anyone in the initial phase. Rasalhague was overrun. There wasn't time or cooperation for the first assault on the Inner Sphere.
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As for moving fast … again this is why the IS would use any means possible to slow their assault … thus attacking their transport (Jump-ships) would not be out of the norm …. Slow them down … prepare forces in their advance …. Attack their rear ….insert commandos kill squads …. Attack their supply lines … show me general who would not do this – they would soon be on charges of dereliction of duty / cowardice in the face of the enemy - put them against the wall!
Not possible. The way and where from the Clans were pushing in on the IS, it's not like they could just go behind them and do all that. Remember, the IS planets were falling left and right. You can't attack supply lines and worry about commando attacks when you're too busy trying to bring up units on other fronts in the IS to the Clan front. Travel was not instantaneous in Battletech
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Again …. Defender of the Status Quo … all the best writers spend vast amount of time getting it right …. Pulp writers (Hacks) … should be shown the error of their ways … how do you expect them to get better as writers? Again this is stating we all should just go along with whatever is written no matter what … sorry but I can let it go when such a huge hole is created by poor writing and being lax on due diligence / fact checking. Isn’t this why I created this discussion – why the writing was so bad and perhaps what should happened?
That's your opinion, and the problem is, you like to shout down everyone who disagress with you. The writing was not that bad and what should have happened did happen. I like how it was done well enough, and I'm tired of you complaining about it and getting on people for defending it. Is it perfect? No, of course not. But it works for what it needed to do. It set the stage for more players, for a united Inner Sphere, for a different narrative than just one House fighting with another.
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My lack of research on the Clans? I can say the same, how’s the research going on “Ducks”? – First look at The psychological paper, book and film entitled ‘The Wave’. Then look at a couple dozen of the Nat. Geo Docos on all their areas. Then read a couple of the Books of the subject – once finished – Have a real good look at Smoke Jaguars first – I still find a “duck” (Turtle Bay and the death of the old man there? – Russia WWII?) – if they are not “a duck” then what would you describe them as? Fascist … yes? But then which one? What about the Sibkos (H. Youth) – Eugenics (Arianism) – Totalitarian Government and How they treat their lower castes? (you work for the state and do what we tell you to do) – the three levels – the leader the military and the state nothing else matters? Etc etc. there are too many similarities not to call them “Ducks” …. And then what about all the other Clans … are they just different shades of “Ducks”? as for being human – “ducks” were also human and look at what they did …. No Clan Wolverine were the only ones to see the truth and the only ones with the balls to act …
QUOTE: they were based on the 13th century Mongols, Shogunate Japan, and 20th Century China ….
Sorry No, Mongols – freedom of religion, nomadic etc? Shoganate (which period – edo?) where are the arts, literature, philosophy? 20th Cent China (early, Mid or late 20th Cent?) – how can you pick and choose from these and say you have a harmonious culture it is like adding oil to water …. How can anyone say the Clans are multicultural in origin?
You still haven't researched them. Their eugenics program was nothing like the Aryans. They were producing the best bloodlines of warriors. It wasn't based on race or ethnicity. It was based on prowess and merit. Caste systems are nothing new to the world, and like I said, different Clans treated their castes differently. Turtle Bay was a massacre, yes, but even Leo Showers was appalled by it. The Jade Falcons couldn't even believe that the Jaguars did that. If you want to talk about massacres, look at the Draconis Combine and Eridani Light Horse. You can't use one example and say that all Clans followed that path and call them all Nazis, or fascists, or whatever other term you feel like.
Read up on the Clans. Nicholas Kerensky did away with family units to instill a sense of unity within the Clans. He based his new model society on all of those things. Mongols for their aggressiveness and terminology, Shogunate Japan for the warrior spirit, 20th Century China, probably something to do with suppressing rebellion and the sibkos (fostering children). These were exiled SLDF. They were multicultural. Not only that, but he created their society to fit what he needed, and he based that upon some of the Asian cultures.
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“Lump sum of all clanners being anti IS was completely wrong. The wardens were not so”.
Then can I ask why even the wardens had re-education camps? (Battletech Comic) they loved the IS so much they invaded the IS and caused death and destruction on what level? …. Let me guess they had honour and bid forces away to minimise damage … again this is BS writing…. Sorry can’t agree, then what happened next when worlds were given over to their new overlords who had no experience at running worlds …. Plague on one world by not faming the medicine required to stave of the plague comes to mind …. How about the others? Again in reality you would be looking at WWII – Russia / France / China on these worlds post invasion ….. anything else is just poor writing.
Comics, I don't think those are canon. Inner Sphere caused massive damage to themselves, that the Clans did too is not much of an argument. The Clans tried to bid away and fight away from major centers of population. That isn't BS writing. That is how they were. The Clans knew how to run worlds. Also, a lot of governments were kept in position and power as long as they recognized that their Clan was in charge. This led to less turbulence. The Jaguars and Falcons didn't follow this as much, and had a harder time with their populations, which is why they had to have the reserve Clans show up.
The plague on the world that you are referring to took out the Clansmen there It was genetically engineered to go after only those from a certain bloodname. It also took place on the homeworlds and was very dangerous. I wish I could just remember where I read that.
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QUOTE: “Now about the clans and their populace. The problem with trying propaganda with them is 250+ years of military teachings with NO alternative narrative available. There were NO such thing as a free society for them to be envious of. Only other clans. So thinking a revolt would be easy to accomplish misses this completely. Nothing in their lives except the dark caste, would be available to show freedom in any form. Other then picking in the limited choices you have given to you”.
So this is factual? …. My Degrees that included psychology courses and international business courses would say otherwise when looking at a society as a whole …. When has there ever been a society who has been so completely indoctrinated? …. As for a revolt - as slaves there will come a time to revolt …. I am Spartacus! (The Dark Cast could be way bigger than anyone ever thought and on worlds hidden to all Clan forces? Who is to say this is wrong? …. Let me guess I believe the book and the book says this … and the book is never wrong!)
Though I did not say it would be easy to accomplish … what I did say that with the help of Operation Serpent the dissidents decided to attack…. As to the scale of this attack, this would be up to the writer of the story to work out would it not? …. So how interesting do you want it to get would be a better question (the Rebels in SW as a template / Exo Squad as a template / other template forces?) to ask?
Again, you are getting hung up on the word free. Free doesn't mean without hardships. The caste system didn't mean they weren't treated well (in certain Clans). The Jaguars treated their lower castes terrible. It cost them a lot. Wolf and Diamond Shark allowed their merchants a lot of leeway. It helped them. Coyote believed in their scientists. Star Adder had some semblance of respect even for the laborers. They knew without everyone, the warriors would be nothing. Also, a revolt would do the lower castes no good. They had no access to mechs. They had other ways to get back at the ruling classes. Jaguar executed a lot of their trouble makers. They never recovered economically. And if lower castes were treated poorly, they would welcome another Clan's attempt to bid on and liberate them in trials and give their new rulers better effort than their previous ones. Caste doesn't equal slave, although it is easy to view it like that. Everyone had their place and they knew it. Even in "free" countries, people tend to do what they are born into. Farmers beget more farmers, cops or military. White collar fosters white collar.
There was no reason for most within the caste system to try to revolt. They had hard work and a decent enough life to go with it. But the castes within the Crusader faction were usually treated a little more harshly and believed in the warrior's cause to go to the IS because they believed that all the IS worlds were an Eden and it would make their lives a little easier with more comfort.
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Again I can only say the current writing is sub. Par. … there was no fact checking in spots… the story was ludicrous as it did not take into account variables that should have been included…. No, It would be better for all to just start a rewrite … I know no one will agree with me now … but this in my opinion and I am sticking to it as I believe the fans would appreciate a good re-write once it was in their hands …. And they began to read it …..
No, a rewrite is bad. There is too much source material out there. By doing that, you alienate everyone who has ever played it, especially in the early years. Also, losing all those novels because you want a few things changed just won't sit well with everyone. What you are saying, is that all the novels, all the work these people put into it, just isn't good enough for you anymore and you want to throw that away to build something that is similar but is more suited to your particular beliefs and opinions. You would make 30 some years of Battletech useless and unreadable because of this. That doesn't sit well with me.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 11:18 AM
66.74.61.223
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Wow. So the clans used a warship once to bomb a population in revolt. The DC has done far worse in it's time. Maybe the 1st succession war might be good reading. Cities died quickly under the firestorms that raged with nuclear attacks. Kenteres is a good example of that. Even the FC used nukes. And by suggesting they use them again means you put them in an even worse situation. The claim the clans are immoral, as it appears, yet you are suggesting using nukes to be rid of them, yet do not understand what that brings.
Supply runs two weeks? Really. Read what is typed, not what is thought to be there. Each leg of the trip could have a jumpship jump one direction, pick up a load, and then jump the other direction, and repeat this action every 2 weeks with a normal recharge. Part of a command circuit.
Reeducation camps. Was that clan or comstar? Last I knew of Comstar was running them. And for some of us, they are called jails. For those using the tactics of assassinations against the clanners, that is a logical course for an invader to do. It isn't like the IS didn't do that to each other, it was just not printed.
Do you really think the clans did not have the abilities to deal with problems on worlds? Their own worlds had issues and they had to deal with them. It isn't like a teen just out of training was sent or dealing with issues. The trial of position skewers that some, I will admit that. But being higher then a star captain out of the sibco did not happen. It meant violating the code of the trial, unless you can get another ego maniac to agree to it. Aidan Pride showed what happens when you do so. Phelan and Natasha was another example the other way.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 11:30 AM
66.74.61.223
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When has there been a nation so taught like the clans, even existed? Even a thousand miles, you still had other nations in the area to show you what freedom is. Not light years with no contact. The entire clan beginning was military forces leaving with their families and such. And by the end of the civil war in the clans in the beginning, people accepted it, as they were tired of the wars that kept happening.
And for revolts, you have to have a chance to live afterwards. Do you think, giving the idea the clans were pure dictators, the populace would be able to escape? Something is missing here. The dark caste was the only option, and even that was not an option. Where would they go? The other clans would not allow such things to happen, as it would give rise to the others to think it was tolerated.
With no where to go, and the fact the populace was not slaves, as suggested, why is a revolt even considered? More then a few of those 'slaves' support the way things are done. It keeps them safe, and allows them to do things that would not be possible under other conditions. They may not have the freedom to tell their leaders to go to hell, but they had alot more then more then a few nations do today.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 11:49 AM
66.74.61.223
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The caste system is alive and well in the world today. Alot of people can not even begin to get out of their rut as the rich and powerful are looking to make economic slaves out of most.
Factory workers in one area are likely to bear children that will be factory workers. Farmers and such are the same thing.
You want a hard life, a few in the IS would be happy to provide that. Even in the FC, there were leaders that thought their power gave them the right. The clans put people to work in areas they seem best to be in. A weak person can not be a firefighter. Just not possible, though we lessen the tests to allow it today. Someone that can't even turn on a computer is not meant to program or even fix them. So in that aspect, they were kept to what they could do. Not strive to be something else.
As for the plague reference, the only one I kind of know of was on a FRR world. A flu struck every year in one area, and the clanners got it when attacking. The FRR used that to help remove those clanners for a while.
A suggestion, would be look at this from a point of view not locked into the single view that seems to be here. The clans were not a bunch of thug bandits ruling over those under them like a pack of animals. In some ways, they were better then the IS at keeping their people happy. Medical proceedures being one of them, though some were lolthed to use them on meer civilians.
I forget you got here after we had a discussion about restarting the game. The writing is bad in some things, but others, well mechanics have issues as well. The idea of actually fixing issues with the rules was brought up, and as much as I hate to admit it, the game would not survive a restart like Dungeons and Dragons has done.
Continuity issues has been in almost any sci fi out there. And the issues with the great tech the enemy has falters, once the 'good guys' get it.
Game balance is used to prevent some things from being fixed. So the basics of the game has issues, what do you think is going to happen with some writing about their favorite units and not really understanding some of the concepts. This may upset those, but when you do things in the novels, you can't in the game, there are issues.
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wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 11:57 AM
74.214.54.153
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I found the plagues I thought Requiem was talking about. One was in the homeworlds and affected the Fire Mandrills and Steel Vipers. The other was on Galedon and that was in 3069. Neither seemed that relevant.
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Requiem
06/12/18 09:52 PM
58.175.193.140
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The title of this post is “ALT History / Thoughts regarding the Clan Invasion” – Alternative(s) to the actual history – why do you keep trying to bring it back to the original as written – The Clan Invasion is as written is the ONLY this way and can never be changed?
Quote: It is written by the creators, therefore it is Cannon
Case in point ….. Please note this post was to be about thinking outside the box …. Not limiting it to the box only …. OK?
Query …… Nothing in a game-world is Cannon …. Everything can be modified …. From one game master to the next to the next from one game night to the next …. Especially when utilizing an RPG style game format … each game master sets the parameters and the players react accordingly …. It all comes down to what each group enjoys …. Is this not so? House Rules are the way to go …
This is what this post was to be about …. House Rules …. House thoughts on how you change the main narrative to what you might prefer in your own home …. Or is that wrong of me I am not allowed to do that. I can only go by what all the novels and history as written?
OK, so let us get back to basics – why was the all the IS forces reduced so considerably by the game-makes between that of twenty year update, which indicates House units Deployment as of 3050, and those sourcebooks as at the start of the Clan Invasion?
Why was this done? To stop advanced tactics; limit IS ability to respond accordingly; Being Lazy; too difficult; would cause unforeseen problems or is there another reason?
First add this dimension back to the game … more troops … more possibilities …
Case 1:
You intimate the Clan Invasion was a very Fast campaign thus limiting all IS responses? Correct
IS were able to mount a successful defence …. Then why can you not accept using commandoes upon their garrison worlds …. using high powered sniper rifle platoons during the invasion? How many units could they have as a security force for each 8-12 hour shift …. Could you exploit their lack of security (no real training in this area) to cause a disturbance … get the bulk of their military to move out …. Then execute a quick snatch and grab upon all the remaining bases support personnel …. Then get them evacuated off world by pirate point? How will the remaining clan warriors be able to feed / fix their machines etc without their support personnel? And if this was done upon multiple worlds at the same time?
Would this not cause the main fleet to send back replacement personnel? How will they change their garrisons going forward considering the limited number of elementals on hand?
Case 2:
Scouting is different from attacking in the periphery.
Lack of Jumpships means they are not available to be utilized to both fight the clans on the main front – conduct raids in the rear of the clans (on their newly acquired Garrison) worlds and send forces into the periphery at the same time to hunt down their supply bases.
How does anyone know this is not possible! where is it written down anywhere how many jump-ships are available to each House – their numbers are only discussed in vague terms only – so again why not?
Why limit the game to just the IS only?
Why not expand the game? Lets invade the periphery and the Deep Periphery and go after the Clans like pirates of old / submarine wolfpacks?
Then Transfer any “salvage” back to the IS? How would this change the game by giving the IS weapons parity to that of the clans?
What if you gave Pirates “letters of Mark that are passed down from one generation to the next” – in the future this could get very interesting?
Case 3:
Nukes
Fist it is discussed that CC can use them upon the FC if they invade them in 3039
Then I said due to Samurai Honour – The destruction of Turtle Bay occurred because the people rose up to assist the Scion of House Kurita to escape the Clans – required a response (one that the original books left out and without a response can only be seen as a Loss of Honour and face) – This loss of face would demand a reprisal – Is it so wrong to contemplate a Kamikaze attack upon Clan Smoke Jaguar using nukes to regain their honour and face?
Thus the FC will be drawn into a nuclear war as well?
Thus Nukes against Warships – Warships against Planets (industries and CinC) thus brining the game to an early Jihad than expected?
Case 4:
Mass Aerospace Assaults
I am unable to use this because the FWL may attack – Lack of time to coordinate such a venture?
After the signing of the new Star League – was there not an agreement to cease all inter House Fighting during this time of crisis?
The FWL were getting rich by being the IS major supplier of weapons – so why risk this by attacking?
Then we have the year of peace – one year to move things around the map – Cannot I assemble new Regimental Aerospace Combat Groups of three Regimental Aerospace wings – 180+ fighters (the same as RCTs but with aerospace fighters?)
Then use my spies (using black boxes) to identify worlds under attack – that do not have warships – jump in and disable all clan Jump-ships – thus slowing their advance?
In the event of a warship would it be so hard to believe that an IS could issue a challenge to the warship that would include a Nuke – Thus satisfying the Clans Honour and potentially killing off the Warship?
Or use a nuke at all as we are down the rabbit hole with the Kurita Turtle bay reprisal ark?
Case 5:
“Ducks”
The “Ducks” understanding of leadership by their subordinates –to take the initiative in providing policies and actions in line with the wishes and the goals of the party hierarchy. Do the Clans change this policy at all?
Do the “Ducks” government exercise absolute centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and all opposing political and cultural expression is suppresses? If I remember correctly, even the Bears lost their right to vote later down the tack due to their new Khans’ edict?
Did the “Ducks” not have Lebensborn – a biological hereditary of children who exhibit certain traits – Was not the Clan traits that of the being a superior warrior though at a DNA level? How is this not race supremacy as only their race is are allowed to lead their military / government? Do they not separate themselves into classes of those born in the iron womb and those born naturally – does not this constitute one race over that of another politically / socially / the use of last names can only be won by true born - denying a last name to that of everyone else (thus no family history / identity imposed upon you by your overlord)?
Did the “Ducks” not have H.-Jugend – a paramilitary organisation, divided into cells, who were indoctrinated into the party way of thought – and as a paramilitary organisation were taught how to use weapons – Keep physically fit – survival in the outdoors – taught gliding (later to become pilots)etc. – and latter joined their own regiment that were there on D.Day? – how does this differ from a Sibko and how they were brought up? And how they were expected to graduate into the army? Semantics aside very little difference in the overall structure of the two.
Question how do you get a sense of unity if you destroy the family unit? Ever been to boarding school – this does wonders for the family unit? And as for creating one Clan
Have a look at the old H.-Jugen Saying – One Hiter –One Party – One Homeland ….. or should it be re-written as One Knan – One People – One Clan …..?
So maybe you need to add pre 1945 Germany to the list of 13th century Mongols, Shogunate Japan, and 20th Century China? As these elements are in both are they not? Then you don’t have to call them “Ducks” they are the Clans (but with “Ducks” philosophy / culture added to the original mix)
So why not have a large hidden Dark Caste that can strike at them when the IS Operation Serpent arrives – it opens a new dimension to the game? Or am I wrong?
Case 6:
Psi-Ops and the Clans
Historical fact that certain governments utilized psy-ops teams to destabilize countries internally – is it so hard to contemplate a society that is made up of workers who have no power over their lives and are disenfranchised from all political power might want to do something about it to make their lives better than what it currently is and for that of their children? So why not tap into this resentment and any other psychological angst a non-warrior caste person might have and use this to start a civil war?
Is it possible to break their conditioning? Or are you saying that this cannot be done?
We got one to betray the Clans and give us the Exodus Road – so why not more?
Also those within the IS – cannot those free born be seduced by how the IS people live – as they are experiencing a whole new way of life, why can we not get defectors or is this just not possible?
As for Clant stuffing up with the crops causing an epidemic due to no new medicine – this is an example of how great military leaders (with no education in economics etc) are very good at running a world – if they stuff up the people hate them – more partisans – more terrorist activities etc – what kind f world will your military unit be landing into? Vichy / Open Rebellion / Detent and separate or other …
Case 7:
Battletech 2.0
You say that a re-write is not possible, however if you had a clear banner on the front of every book “In Conjunction with Battletech 2.0” this then becomes very possible – how hard is it to keep two separate piles of books and two separate histories in your mind? Then the gamers can decide what is possible and what is not possible.
From a marketing standpoint this is very easily accomplished – you ae just rebranding to open new products to both an existing and a possible new market – as most of the old books are getting harder and harder to find – new books to existing game stores could revitalize the brand if it is done correctly.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 10:08 PM
66.74.61.223
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I will touch on the real world a little to remove the idea of manifest destiny is inbred in every leader.
Today we have an emperor, kings, queens and princes/princesses, and yet none have been pushing to reclaim lands lost in war and diplomacy.
England has not tried to reclaim any of their empire that stretched across the world. So this manifest destiny that is implied in the leaders of the IS/clans/comstar is not in every one of them.
Now. Back to the semi sci fi of this.
The question of things being written in stone, makes me curious on what the materials is being used to determine how each entity is portrayed. Is there something other then the manuals, novels and such that contradicts this? After all, we are talking about dealing with billions scattered across light years of distance. Control drops dramatically as distance prevents quick responses.
Using psychology and saying this is how each leader would be, and it isn't done in the books does not work. Might be the lack of understanding the writers are the 'gods' of the game. What they say is what is done. Saying they are wrong is valid, but suggesting things can only be the way of a single point of view does sound like forcing others the follow that line of thought.
This is what I have an issue with. Bringing up different points of view are fine. That is what opinions are.
And again. Numbers help make a decision to go to war, but it is not the end all of it. The clans had far less numbers when deciding to hit the IS. They knew they were outnumbered. But they were generally superior warriors with superior weapons. As noted before, the range is why they were doing so well and having the ability to use them at range. Had to hurt the enemy when you can't reach them.
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wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 10:30 PM
74.214.54.153
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You claim it is alternate history but go off about how your ideas make more sense and the writers didn't know what they were doing and you have the solution. It can't be alt history when you want it to and a rewrite at other times. I have rebuffed your statements enough for the rewrite. I could care less if you had your own alternate history within your group, but don't push it that it makes more sense or that it should be that. That's where you will run into the wall. You have stated too often that it should be this way or that this couldn't have happened and so on. Or the writers are hacks and should know they messed up. That's not an alternate history for others to be open to. That's you trying to rewrite the game.
I even think more of us would be more understanding and positive if you framed it differently. Instead of this is what should have happened or this is wrong and my way is the only way that works, you should frame it asking if you could see it happening this way. I don't agree with the writers for everything. But I will defend them. Don't attack them head on. Try a different approach where you are seeking opinions that *could* work within what has been given, but change a couple of things and let us know what you wanted to change. Like your Capellan argument. Instead of saying the book is wrong because you don't like that McCarrons rebuilt, say let us go with that McCarron's were never able to rebuild, so they won't be in the equation. Or for this alternate history, the Inner Sphere were better prepared than what has been given. Simple wording like that takes it away from an attack on the game and open to new ideas, based off of a common understanding that things have changed and what they are changed to.
Like me, for instance, I like the Fire Mandrolls. A lot. I go into alternate timelines where they make it onto the secondary invasion force. And in my case, I got kicked around by Comstar. Bad. I am waiting to get my retribution, hopefully this week. But me and my group made up a timeline and changed stuff around so I could get those guys up to the front.
Wording makes all the difference. It changes me from being an obstinate jack **** to a semi well mannered person who will listen to ideas and isn't scary to approach.
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ghostrider
06/13/18 12:48 AM
66.74.61.223
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Ok. Case one. Where is the intel coming from to suggest they left the base weakly defended?
Other then history says so in the game? Did this get asked when the story line was being written or years afterwards?
Case 2. Wasting jumpships scouring the periphery verse using them to hit or reinforce the front lines is far different from each other. Still the lack of understanding that IS had NO intel on the clans other then what the Dragoons gave them. Well, that isn't quite true. They knew the clans had warships and units that would destroy their forces without too much effort. So lets waste the few jumpships we have in a vain attempt to find their base. And yet, when you do, other then the jumpships not reporting back, how do you know you found a base? That could be a misjump or even pirates taking the ship. And with this, how do you know they had bases, and not used mobile fleets to carry supplies? Other then it being in the past?
Case 3. Again with the assumption the IS knew what the clans had, and where they were. More then a few times they were going to strike at the clans only to realize they may no longer be on the worlds they thought they were. NO intel coming in, and black boxes were not in play on every world. The idea of leaving their troops behind enemy lines to slowly be bled to death prevented it.
Case 4. What nation isn't ready to exploit an enemy weakness, like pulling a large chunk of it's forces from your borders? To allow them to form a large group to invade your lands? Again, a lack of understanding the need to protect all planets, not just a simple few. Also, the lack of understanding Comstar was still fighting the shadow war with FC intel. They were showing agents to the clans, with the rescue that Kai Allard lead on the comstar reeducation camp. So what intel agents where there? Where were they at? Dead? Captured? Risk letting the clans get ahold of the black boxes?
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ghostrider
06/13/18 01:09 AM
66.74.61.223
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Case 5. Did the desire to make the clans look like the pirates of old really distort what was actually written in the game? Suggesting it was something else means the lack of reading what is there. I did not see where they torture prisoners for the hell of it. Military intel, which is to be expected, but not caring about if they liked the clans or not. Big difference. Now please stop with the Nazi reference as it is not in the game in the clans. CC/DC were harsh, they were worse then the clans were.
Mixing up who had what personality traits seems to be the issue here.
Case 6. So hard to contemplate a society that workers have no power over their lives? The rest of that statement doesn't get better. Just because something isn't understood, doesn't mean it isn't the way it is. At least two people in this conversation is saying we contemplate it. I don't have any training in psychology either. Understanding an enemy is something you can use. As given, the lack of information on the civilians would mean any attempts to do so would fail. Later, in the forbidden future, it became possible, but during the initial invasion it wasn't.
Case 7. Not sure if the game developers could withstand a complete overhaul, but that was discussed in a much earlier thread.
But time to shut down the suggestion this is all bad.
Do you continue to buy new books?
Have you kept the old ones?
If yes, then you continue to support the writers that are screwed up in the head, making false assumptions on a game they are making.
I would love to see the alternative game, not based on Battletech that you are making.
You do know there are non violent games that were fun.
M.U.L.E. in the old days was about basic economics and fun to play. Minecraft on peaceful is another one. Come out with something that deals with your economics training.
And lord wolf is correct. Wording is as much a solution as what is said. It is difficult to say a few things without sounding like an attack, but the psyche training should have explained that one.
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Requiem
06/13/18 07:02 AM
58.175.193.140
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Case 1.
Raiding Clan Basses
There is almost no records of garrison sizes during the Clan Invasion. The only records that comes close is….
* From the 1st Somerset Strikers (Book and Episode) – Episode 10: The Enemy of my Enemy when they encountered a star of Mechs (5) only.
* Rhonda’s Irregulars – Pg. 54, 55 Apollo 14 Aug 3051 – again 1 Star of Mechs – Though the Star Captain did mention he was part of a Trinary Alpha and it was also mentioned that his unit was composed of older warriors or those who had simply tested out of more prestigious positions.
Both on the ground – thus indicating a garrison of some sort is in effect.
So these are the only two I could find, therefore it is up to the purview of the game-master to decide the size of the opposing Clan forces.
Again I ask what size would the garrison be if the Jade Falcon’s entered the IS with – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships?
Most would be Solhama?
As for a basic garrison size 15 – 30 – 45 Old Mechs / Omnis would there even be any elemental or aerospace support?
Would they leave behind a Dropship which has the internal capabilities to repair ‘Mechs? or
Would they just dump the techies there with a modicum of space parts / ammunition?
So what would you leave behind in each world as a minimum?
Case 2.
Reconnaissance / Attack force into the periphery –
How do you know they had bases, and not used mobile fleets to carry supplies?
You don’t this is why you send them out there to find out – this is one of the reasons you establish forces such as the Seals, Delta Force, SAS etc – they are given the high risk jobs.
This is why you had PBYs during the WWII pacific campaign.
Though if you wanted information before you sent them into the periphery – you must get it from the enemy – raid their data cores – captured radio traffic – capture and interrogate their personnel – gather information regarding their supply runs (capture resupply dropships and their personnel on the ground or in space when they are not guarded); Clan re-education camps (as per 1st Somerset Strikers Book and Epidodes) ex-periphery pirates etc. Then give all this and the people to your military intelligence team who then make a decision and you go from there. (Remember The Battle of Midway came from a guess!).
Though also consider, The Periphery Book No. 1692 – Pg. 90, “The Draconis Combine have established several bases beyond its borders from which to launch further exploration missions into the deep periphery …..”
No great gains in war were made by being a lamb – only the lion achieves advancement.
So no during the initial invasion you could be able to make accurate assumptions and then act on them accordingly.
Again you could very easily set up a communication chain within the Black Boxes range to report back to home with your findings.
So if you don’t want to go pirating, don’t more booty for me, and more experience and fun for my gamers who go through this game arc!
Case 3.
Nukes –
Really …. So your saying that that there is no way to predict the clans advance along a broad front when they are going from one world to the next and moving in a straight line towards Terra (Info. Provided by Wolf’s Dragoons)? I think by the second wave it is becoming a bit predictable.
As to what they had … the spy / the secret reconnaissance base hidden on the moon with no electronic traffic just a great camera / the spy satellite / the interrogated clans man / capture a clan Dropship Crew or even a Jumpship – there is a myriad ways of finding out the information you want it just requires the will to get it – assign a team and run it, then see what you can do / get!.
You still didn’t reply to my question? As a samurai how would Lord Kurita regain his loss of face and honour, and in front of all of his generals, from the destruction of Turtle Bay by a Smoke Jaguar Warship? Kamikaze and nukes? Or what would you consider the best way to regain his honour?
Case 4.
Mass Aerospace Assaults –
So in fear of other nations you remain the lamb and don’t take the risk ….. OK …. do that but as a lion I will take the calculated risk and assign my forces to a re-emerged SLDF and attack.
Again with the no intel … sorry but yes intel is available (refer above)
Black boxes may not be on every world 3050 – however, post year of peace – you can bet they would be on every word along the strike zone in front of the Clans Advance toward Terra and also with every Elite RCT and the new RACT units to distribute information and orders as required.
As for commando troops left behind … re-read about SAS Commando activities during WWII …. And French partisan activates during WWII …. This is one of their specialities …. And yes they can bleed the clan forces despite all doubters out there saying they can’t!.
Case 5.
Found it!
Book – The Clans Warriors of Kerensky No. 1709 Pg. 12 – Please explain ….
- the use of “The Coursing” and “Thamzing”
- “Nicholas Kerensky would do anything to ensure his new society’s survival. Brutal situations called for brutal measures. The individual – at least, the non-military individual – would be far less important than the clan”.
- “The sheer brutality of the postliberation months prompted some within the Clans to revise their opinions of Nicholas. While they agreed that the warlord should be punished, torture and degradation went against everything they stood for. They feared Nicholas would become another Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse-tung or Stefan Amaris ….”
- “Nicholas feared )probably correctly) that his grip on the Clans was slipping, and flexed his muscles as ilkhan against the main opposition to his authority: Clan Wolverine.”
And Pg. 9-10-11
- “… remodel society by removing cultural bias … based on merit and ability rather than parentage. It is ironic that his descendants revised his intentions, espousing the superiority of select bloodlines”.
- “Nicholas created the ultimate meritocracy … declaring … If there is no unity, nothing can be achieved”
- “Nicholas Kerensky’s most brutal act … destruction of family units … encouraging fostering …”
- (Though in my opinion the most brutal act was to strip every-one of their ancestral history …. An understanding of where they came from except for the warriors …. That of their family name … think about this .. we have now entered 1984, Brazil, Clockwork Orange, Faring-height 451 and now the Hand Maids Tale – a real dystopian society)
- All of this for … “in the hope that trueborn and freeborn would form a harmonious society with no divisions”.
What eventuated though with the emergence of the Clan eugenics program 2819 and then on …
Book 1st Somerset Strikers Pg. 43 note this was written August 13, 3050 “…. What I have seen of the Clans … proves that their entire society is inimical to all the values and traditions that we hold dear. They have no concept of freedom, individuality, or self-determination. They classify people …..with the most stratified and class-bound societies. The Clans divide people into five castes: warrior, scientist, merchant, technician, and labourer. Each caste is ranked according to its value to society, as the Clans understand value, placing the warrior caste at the top of the ladder and descending in order to the labourer caste. Though this system appears to have the virtue of assigning everyone a definite niche in life, in practice it devalues everyone outside the warrior caste. ….. the value of each caste is measured solely by the worth of its function to the warriors. The labourers, who attend to the day-to-day running of society, are regarded as little better than livestock …. The Jade Falcons believe that anyone born or placed into a given caste is by nature suited only to that caste and cannot possibly function anywhere else. ….. Such rigid thinking, with no concessions to individual wants and needs make a mockery of the ideal of freedom held up by the ancient Star League ….”
Case 6.
Psi-Ops and the Clans
You can bet a labourer, who is treated little better than livestock, is susceptible to deserting if they can get away …. Or given the chance what else could they be susceptible to doing if you use psychology on them ….. brain-washing / indoctrinating comes to mind …. Then chaos!
There are so many things you could use here with psi-ops teams ... on newly acquired Clan held worlds ...
Case 7.
Battletech 2.0
If not a completely new thread then how about a new book(s) entitled Alternate Universes – they could then troll the forums for interesting topics and use them as “alternate universes” that game-masters could draw upon for inspiration – as examples of how to modify the one and only into something that the ‘house-rules gamers” could use and develop for their own slant on the IS … thus giving the gamers more freedom to explore “their” IS.
You could repackage this with a new starter box – with cardboard mechs from all the technical updates and allow them to put them in when ever and where ever they see fit – the rules could also include some of the more unique variations on situations throughout the IS – Amaris – 1st to 4th SW, Clan, Post Clan, CW, Jihad Operation Bulldog & Serpent - use of poison gas on CC words or even clan held worlds or the use of nukes during any time frame and their possible repercussions even as my mines – i.e. some of those Alt. Histories that I have espoused as the way to go , thus giving people like me who cannot stand some of the history to invent their own IS and play these alternate wars as we see fit …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/13/18 07:18 AM)
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ghostrider
06/13/18 11:12 AM
66.74.61.223
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Case 1. That is a good question, I have no idea the count. Knowing the arrogance of that particular clan, a star of mechs with solhama infantry. If I know right, the stats given to the clans invasion forces, did not include the garrison forces. Almost all garrison forces would not have omnis in them, as it is a waste for most clans to even think of it.
Though I do expect it would be larger on the more important worlds. As for repairs, and mobile repair platform should be sufficient.
Case 2. On a habitable world, leaving people in areas is easy. What you are talking about is leaving people out in the periphery that may never be picked up and returned to their unit. Some worlds could well have had no breathable atmosphere, as the clans did have environmental suits and even the elemental suits to do the labor of moving supplies. Not at likely as using worlds that you could atleast breath on, but breathing masks is easier to cheaper to hand out then the suits. So locations go completely against IS thinking. And with good reason. A single jumpship having problems dies in them. As each clan had their own route in and out of the IS, you could find one base. But whos?
Case 3. Nukes. How many nukes does the clans have and use? That was completely unknown when the invasion happens. Instead of using 1st war tactics, and finding out they had them as well, it is best to find out if you can survive without them.
Side note. Given the radiations in space, all space craft should have some shielding. I doubt it would be enough, but there are pulsars that are suspected of sending out streams of particles that some scientists suggest could kill life on worlds light years away.
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ghostrider
06/13/18 11:36 AM
66.74.61.223
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Case 4 is interesting. Why wouldn't you have your factories churning out the maximum fighters they can in the first place? You know they will be needed, especially in upcoming offenses to establish the Star League, as your goal was stated. Even just having the extra protection for the space based factories and such, and not just jumpships and warships. Endosteel factories were at risk. With this, you would have all assigned as soon as you could get them there.
Case 5. Now 250+ years later, those very ideas were removed from most people living in the clans. The dark caste was the boogie man of the clans, but not enough is offered to suggest they were any better. With that, the implied view, lack of food, housing, places to hide, suggested it was even harder to live like that then being assigned a job for life. By our standards, that is horrible. But the standards of living away from any help, having to make it on your own, especially millions of people needed food and such, and alls people wanted was power to command others suffer, the brutal means was required. Like it or not, all work together, or all die screws up how people do things. Now. The fact they survived and thrived says some methods worked. The clan is all. I guess a good example may well be a cult. Nothing you say to the masses will affect them. A small few are looking to get out, but no where near enough to start a revolt.
Case 6, Newly acquired worlds would have populations of IS people ready to bolt. Any clan people would think it all propaganda, as they would suspect the dezgra IS to say anything. And where are you getting that all clans treat their people little better then livestock? There are instances of mistreatment, but the IS has more especially newly taken worlds in all the succession wars. As the CC was gutted, there were more then a few instances of abuse there. So bad, Melisa ordered the FS forces out of the Terran March, and replaced them with LC forces, even risking issues waiting for some garrisons to even be there. The CC/DC has more incidences in their history.
Case 7. Feel free to start a "WHAT IF" board and see how many people come visit the website. The problem with making boxed sets and such is getting the authorization to even attempt to do so. It would be easier to start your own game. Unless you could swing enough money to the owners of the game. Look at the Crossroads alternative. They have what seems to be a thriving community. Retry might be able to help you some with it.
Who knows. Maybe you could actually convince the owners to set this up and milk more out of the cash cow they have created. I understand the need to pay bills and such, but some of their efforts seem more to just throw something together and put it out there.
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ghostrider
06/13/18 11:44 AM
66.74.61.223
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All this weaponry would be for naught if the Mjolnir were not able to protect itself, and designers ensured that she is the most heavily armored vessel operated by the Great Houses and is surpassed only by Clan Ghost Bear's Leviathan II. A staggering 3500 tons of Ferro-Carbide armor cover the Mjolnir's frame and has proven its worth in the Jihad as the LAS Fylgia survived combat over Alarion, where it slipped its moorings, and escaped Blakist assaults over Skye where it was struck by a nuclear warhead along with conventional fire, and again over Tharkad as the LAAF finally managed to free their capital.[3]
I guess this answers the question on if ships could survive the radiation of a nuclear blast.
It is possible only warships have enough to survive, but this may close the nuke debate.
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Requiem
06/13/18 05:40 PM
58.175.193.140
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Sorry, no it will not end the debate
So, Where did you find this in the wiki?
Not all nukes are the same – so what type of nuke and what was its yield as a 1MT and a 100MT warhead are two completely different animals in magnitude.
Case in point what is the melting point of Ferro-Carbide armour? As about 85% of the energy released is in thermal energy.
Quote: Depending on the yield and type of the weapon, the external temperature of the fireball is about the same as that of the Sun, some 6,000° C (5,778 K).
The internal temperature can vary between 10,000,000 and 150,000,000° C.
Thierry Etienne Joseph Rotty, studied at University of Antwerp
Refer: https://www.quora.com/How-much-heat-is-generated-in-a-nuclear-and-a-hydrogen-bomb-blast
Therefore a direct hit by a 50MT Tsar - adios muchachos!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/13/18 06:04 PM
58.175.193.140
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Under the Sarna Wiki page - Fylgia
The Fylgia was launched in April 3069 by Admiral Helena Danvers under duress. The Word of Blake attacked Alarion using nuclear and biological weapons. The vessel escaped capture by the Blakists but did not engage them.[1][2]
The Fylgia surprised the Blakists when they attempted to assault Skye in October 3069. Despite the use of nuclear weapons, Lyran naval forces were victorious.[3][4
The Blakists used a nuclear devices however reading this it could appear they were not used on the Warship – unfortunately I do not have the Battletech book re Jihad 3069 can someone dig it out and see if there is any further info re this battle?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
06/13/18 07:47 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
I guess this answers the question on if ships could survive the radiation of a nuclear blast.
Well, yeah, the rules make that clear. Per Interstellar Operations (p. 170), JHS...3072?, and Liberation of Terra, capital weapon damage from a nuke on a typical hit is 1 capital point (0.5 kilotons), 10 points (5 kilotons), 100 points (50 kilotons), and 1000 points (500 kilotons). However, on a critical hit, 10 times that damage is delivered directly to the WarShip's structural integrity.
Basically, most space-based nuclear attacks, which tend to use smaller warheads (0.5 to 50 kilotons), are only armor-scorching fireballs that many WarShips can shrug off. It's when you get a solid contact detonation that most of a nuke's energy can be transferred into the WarShip. Then even a 5-kiloton weapon becomes a shipkiller (100 capital points straight to the SI.)
During the Jihad, no one fielded large warheads in space-to-space combat. They were all trying the Davy Crockett-type peewees with the thought that NUKULAR WEAPONS KILLZ ALL. That's not the case - standard capital weapons already deliver energies comparable to small nukes, hence their utility in orbital bombardment, and hence WarShip armor can shrug off modest nukes with no more damage than rapid loading of the crew's Maximum Absorbency Garments.
PS: Moderator comment. Posts are flying fast and furious in this thread. Perhaps everyone might want to step back and talk about something else for a while, like the new BT video game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
06/13/18 09:48 PM
66.74.61.223
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The idea of nuclear radiation is the issue with this, not so much the damage to the ship.
Did those inside get radiation poisoning or die outright from the radiation?
Are all ships protected from the radiation of a nuke blast?
The conversation does have the question of if you can nuke the jump points and cause them to be useless as radiation would flood the entire area. The solar winds may eventually clear them out, but how long may be another question here.
As for the new game, a lack of funds prevents me from even thinking about it at this time. Plus that is another thread. It exists, but from the looks of it, others haven't gotten the game or just haven't posted about it.
Now quit trying to thread jack. 
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Cray
06/14/18 05:48 AM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
The idea of nuclear radiation is the issue with this, not so much the damage to the ship.
Did those inside get radiation poisoning or die outright from the radiation?
The total effects of nukes are addressed in the rules, including radiation. Radiation is a factor for ground troops like infantry, but not for WarShips.
Quote:
Are all ships protected from the radiation of a nuke blast?
If they have enough armor, then yes.
Quote:
The conversation does have the question of if you can nuke the jump points and cause them to be useless as radiation would flood the entire area. The solar winds may eventually clear them out, but how long may be another question here.
At a jump point, which has nothing to hold onto to the radiation unlike the soil and air of a planet, BT's modern, fission-less fusion weapons will produce x-rays that disperse at light speed, neutrons that disperse at light speed, and a little of radioactive bomb plasma that's dispersing really fast.
There's nothing like the irradiated soil of a ground burst to really poison the area and BT spacecraft are radiation resistant, as discussed in the nuke rules.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
06/14/18 10:00 AM
58.175.193.140
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Question – During the Clan Invasion Each Clan was expected to garrison their captured territory to the best of their ability? Correct
Now Let Us First Consider the Jade Falcons
They entered the Inner Sphere with the following Complement
‘Mechs 972
Elementals 2,235
Fighters 584
Dropships 140
If we assume that …..
No further Supply runs were made into the IS and this amount remained constant
Each Periphery Garrison consisted of 1 Star Mechs and 1 Star Infantry
Twycross we know had …
‘Mechs 115
Elementals 150
Fighters 30
And Assume Dropships at 5
We then assume that they never suffered any battle losses what-so-ever during the Clan invasion
If we assume that every other planet had a standard garrison of
1 Supernova + 1 Star Fighter + 1 Dropship
The remaining forces available to the Jade Falcons would be
‘Mech 387
Elemental 955
Fighter 334
Dropship 85
However if we change this to …
Trinary Mech + Binary Infantry + Binary Fighter + 1 Dropship
The remaining forces available to the Jade Falcons would be
‘Mech 167
Elemental negative ( 145 )
Fighter 104
Dropship 85
We can therefore conclude from this is that this would mean that the majority of worlds would have a very small garrison force and a single world would have a concentration of forces, such as a hub and spoke arrangements – then this concentrated of forces would then be used as a rapid response attack force if any world within their area stepped out of line?
However, are we not back to concentrated weakness now?
We have only a small number of worlds that actually have a serious Clan Army presence
Thus all the small units are very susceptible to commando snatch and grab missions as they clearly do not have enough forces to adequately garrison all their newly captured worlds
This just leaves what to do with those worlds with a large concentration of Clan forces
I would assume that they would be no more than a Cluster / Galaxy each – though making them a Galaxy would reduce the number of worlds who have a serious military presence to a dangerous level. I would therefore assume most of the larger garrisons therefore would be Cluster level
Thus we are talking about a garrison
‘Mechs 65
Elementals 75
Aerospace 30
Dropships 3-5
We can also assume that they would also need to keep control by having their warships moving from one system to the next with no real pattern to ensure the IS does not get adventurous and maybe one or more Cluster(s) permanently assigned to their Dropships / Jumpships also roving their newly acquired space as a rapid reactionary force.
They would also need to get more personnel into the IS from Clan Space ASAP to reinforce their existing forces otherwise they will find themselves in trouble.
Therefore the Primary issue for the IS is
1. Warships – Roving Cluster Units
2. Large Garrison worlds
3. Incoming reinforcements from Clan Space
Therefore it is critical that the IS has a weapon system that can deal with their Warships / Jumpships
For once you get rid of them you can deal with the rest …
Thus the IS requires pocket warships ASAP to deal with these
This again shows the need to remove Clan Warships and Jumpships 1st
Without pocket warships the only substitute is Regimental Aerospace Combat Groups (120 to 180 Fighters) with a weapon system that can deal with them.
If you cannot use nukes then what weapon system, that can be attached to fighter / dropship, can be used to destroy a warship?
Strategies anyone?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/14/18 12:07 PM
66.74.61.223
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The clans concentrated weakness did suffer some, but not to the extent of Alessandro. Since they were foolish to think the IS would follow their trials, or never rise up to strike back, they thought it was well to do this.
Not sure but I believe the trials allows for waiting for returning forces or adding some in reserve, making clan worlds that much easier to 'defend'. By that, not having to have such a large standing garrison. I know they do allow some time frame for some of them. Not sure about possessions.
Ok. I believe the part of those like Comstar and just normal collaborators is missing from the garrison thoughts. With leaving some government officials in office, Crays explanation of why alot of worlds just acted like it was a normal change of hands. With them thinking they will be freed in a few months, following some new rules might be a pain, but it won't last. This would be during the initial invasion. For some, having a strong force to deal with criminals, including the government itself, was something the would cheer on. I think there were two examples of that. Can't remember the names right now. I want to say Kimball was one of them.
Crays post about nukes against warships comes to mind (Scroll up). It seems capital missiles do more damage unless a crit is made. Normal capital weapons seem to deal as much damage as well.
Dropships with anti capital weapons would be the quicker way to get them on the field, but we know there would not be enough of them to deal with destroying most warships quick enough to survive the battle.
Some sort of capital missile converted over so fighters could 'drop' them to hit a target should be a valid weapon, though not sure of the rules on this.
Just looked at this. The capital missiles are just to heavy for this idea. Unless a smaller version of them is made, that does capital damage, then the nukes may well be the only thing for a fighter.
Edited by ghostrider (06/14/18 12:12 PM)
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Requiem
06/14/18 09:45 PM
58.175.193.140
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When talking ship killers for the IS we know the following … to kill a warship requires the use of capital missiles … yes
…. And we also know that the anti-ship capital scale weapon systems can only fit on a Dropship sized Platform or pocket warship ie. the Barracuda Missile
Baracuda - Damage 2 Capital 20 Standard – Mass 100 tons – Range S 1-20 M 21-30 L 31-40 E 41-50
…. We also know that Samarkand, Tharkad, Commonweath, Essex Class Warships were all armed with nuclear-tipped anti-ship missiles.
The Alamo for example is a 5 Kiloton nuclear missile which can be carried by aerospace fighters and used in space or in an atmosphere to attack air and ground targets
A fifty ton aerospace fighter can carry 1 and a one hundred ton aerospace fighter can carry 2
Is there is a serious need for an aerospace fighter capable Capital Missile …. That is also not nuclear tipped
How about this then …. (Not the FC arrow IV capital missile or the Blakists Parana etc.)
A new Parana anti-ship capital missile – each missile weighs ? tons and may only be mounted on an aerospace unit; each missile takes up 5 bomb slots. They may be used only Space maps and cannot cross the Atmospheric/Space divide. This Parana Missile may be fired only at Dropships, Jumpships and Warships.
Paranah – Damage 1 Capital 5 Standard – Mass ? tons – Range S 1-5 M 6-10 L 11-15 E 16-20
This then rebalances the fighters with that of a Warship
Your thoughts? Reduce the Range?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/14/18 09:59 PM
66.74.61.223
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The idea is solid. The range may be ok as they should be smaller, less fuel on a fighter then the larger ones. Even a very short range with a large payload, like a single missile/torpedo set up.
I wonder how much the capital missiles are like lrms?
Less damage because of longer ranges?
Maybe make an 'srm' version of them, doing more damage, but shorter range.
But I guess it is the same thing, just packaged a little different.
Though I don't see why you couldn't make a light version with the shorter ranges. They did it with Gauss rifles, lrm/mrm/srms, lasers and come out with ppcs. Why not lighten the weights for several capital ship weapons. Less damage and range, but can be used on lighter, faster ships, even reducing it down to fighters, or dedicated anti warship units.
NL 10 or something like that.
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Requiem
06/17/18 07:18 AM
58.175.193.140
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A capital missile’s fundamental capabilities,
When an aerospace fighter that is armed with a capital missile, the aim of the fighter, and by extension that of its pilot, is to get the missile on target so that once fired it would guarantee a strike against the warship, thus penetrating the warship’s anti-aerospace and anti-missile screen.
To do this the missile must be at a very high velocity.
As the missile is designed to “take on” and damage a warship it must also have high penetration and explosive properties – maximising the damage to the warship.
Thus we must consider range – with a velocity that can penetrate the screen protecting the warship – the range of the missile must be greater than that of the anti-aerospace fighter screen (thus protecting the fighter) – therefore in all probability an extreme range.
The converse must also be true – if the velocity is lower than it should – the fighter must get the missile through the screen and onto the target – therefore a medium /short range must be considered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/18 04:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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Why bother with fighters then? Other then the capital missiles, all of their weapons would have to get inside the anti fighter weapons. Now if you are making pure bombers that fire the capital missiles then run, this would be more ideal.
And that is an issue with the game. Missiles track, where rockets are a fire on a straight line. So a target lock with a missile should allow it to turn if it needs to be corrected.
Yeah, the bs of tracking in the game stops this. Ecm would affect it.
And the suggestion was to lower the amount of fuel in a new missile so you would have to be closer, but it would weigh less, or carry more explosives. Speed was not mentioned in the last post.
Nothing about making smaller NL? Something that a fighter might be able to use? Even a single point would help. Might shut down the fighter after firing it, which would be a major down side. But that depends on the heat output of such a weapon.
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Requiem
06/17/18 09:29 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: “Why bother with fighters then?”
Answer, time, numbers/manpower, money and production ….
How long does the IS have when they are being attacked by the Clans before they collapse? They have an existing means of transporting a new missile system – The Fighter. The IS does not have time to engineer a new means of transporting a new weapon to the enemy.
The IS has how many aerospace fighters that could be equipped with new weapons? – that do not need to be produced (thus do not divert important resources and people away from other important weapon projects) and you do not have to retrain to deliver the weapon … you have a vast amount of fighters, they are there, and they are trained …. use them….
Money, how much would it cost to create a new delivery system and the weapon at the same time, no it would be more cost effective to just create the weapon from an economic point of view …
Production, if you are just producing one item, in this case the missile, the output would be higher than that of producing the missile and the delivery system …
Time (again) when producing only the missile, wold it not be quicker to get the weapon to the front lines thus utilizing it against the enemy quicker?
Perhaps after the 15 year truce you could design and manufacture bomber that could carry larger capital missiles …. But in the early years of the invasion the need was great for an anti-warship weapon was high, thus it makes sense that a missile was required by all the militaries ASAP (Unless you want to go down the track of the 5MT Alamo that is).
QUOTE: “Speed was not mentioned in the last post”.
“To do this the missile must be at a very high ‘velocity’.”
Smaller NL? Such as ….. can you provide an example / explain further?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/18 10:33 PM
66.74.61.223
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As I don't know if the missile can be dropped form the ordinance pylons or not. Given in space, there is no friction for the rockets to push against, it would take time for it to accelerate to speed. I would assume part of the launchers weight it dealing with the thrust as well as possible a catapult system to shoot the missile out.
Now the anti fighter area of warships. You want to fire missiles where the warship can not fire back. Yet want to put a missile on the fighter that can outrange it. It may not be possible. Unless an answer is given to the ability to drop fire the missile the launchers are just too heavy to have on fighters. A shorter ranged missile may be an alternative, but you would have to get in closer. So there lies the issue.
With the fighters in existence, they may not be able to carry the necessary equipment require to target and fire the missile.
So it may be needed to design a delivery craft to do so. Still faster then making pocket warships as well as normal ones.
The speed statement was my last post, not yours. And the missile only has to go fast then the warship. The normal missiles for ground combat can do it and still hit the target, and they are probably less likely to track the target then capital missiles.
The NL being shrunk was not explained well. I reread the post and put it with making lighter missiles.
The Sub capital system put on one of the recent designs, came to mind, but it is too heavy, and produces too much heat to be useful on a fighter. I don't see why they couldn't come out with a smaller until in the NL line that might fit even just the 100 ton fighter and still hurt warships.
Then the idea of using a drop shuttle comes to mind. 200 tons. Basically gut most of it, and put in the weapons system with enough scrubbers to keep the crew alive on patrols.
Additional note. The missile system should have been thought of earlier, when the IS started producing warships, as you can not build fast enough to secure your entire border. The enemy has an advantage of local numbers. They can come in with what ever, and you have only what you have to defend with.
Edited by ghostrider (06/17/18 10:36 PM)
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Requiem
06/18/18 04:41 AM
58.175.193.140
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The information below is also include under the Aerospace section within the forum:-
I find this very interesting that the Sarna.net wiki includes the following two pages
First, Essay: SLDF Naval Doctrine
Nuke Proofing SLDF Style
The ships of the SLDF are often maligned as the worst ships ever made, their primary advantage being size. This may be so. I certainly think their roles were never thought out. Having said that an analysis of these ships design and possible use in a nuclear environment offer some disturbing insights which may cause us to rethink their use and utility.
Environment
Let’s start with a basic understanding of nuclear naval combat. Space borne nukes can be delivered in three ways.
Carried in a ship
Anti Ship Alamo via aerospace fighter
Anti Ship Santa Anna via capital missile
Second, Anti-Ship Missile
The Anti-Ship Missile (AS) was an Arrow IV variant developed by the Federated Suns. Development of this missile began in 3069, spurred on by the Blakist blockade of New Avalon, with limited production started in 3071. Though based on the Arrow system, the ASM incorporates Tandem-Charge Warhead technology and is fitted with powerful booster engines to give it greater velocity. Armor penetration is achieved as much through kinetic energy as the dual warhead, and while devastating against large vessels the increased speeds and limited guidance system means the weapon has a harder time hitting fast, agile targets.
Game Rules
ASM Missiles weighs 2 tons and may only be mounted on aerospace units; each missile takes up 6 bomb slots. They may be only be fired at Altitude Level 3 or higher on the Low Altitude map, as well as the Space map. The weapon suffers to-hit modifiers when fired at aerospace targets less than 500 tons or ground targets 100 tons or less.
So what are the Capital Missiles between that of the SLDF and 3069 – or must we consider these to be a further example of lost technology that not even ComStar retained?
What about the use of Capital Missiles upon Dropships?
Were Capital Missiles included on the Helm memory Core?
So game designers where are my missiles at 3025 and 3050? 3025 – Anti-Dropship; 3050- now Anti-Warship
Why, if we did have the Alamo missile even at 3025, why was there not a conventional warhead initially used as an anti-dropship then with the appearance of the Clans an anti-warship?
Can anyone please explain for I am at a loss?
Was it just not included in the initial release – however overtime we look back and say ooops – could we not just add them back now, please?
Thus another reason why the Clan Invasion onwards needs a serious re-write?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/18 12:22 PM
66.74.61.223
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The clan invasion onward?
From the league onward.
Changing how infantry takes damage is a big changer, as more damage would have been done to mechs in cities and such. Even those worlds where they say infantry protected it, would have lasted far longer then they did, changing the outcome of more then a few battles. And the domino effect comes into play.
Example. Infantry destroys the mechs that were sent to destroy an ammo depot. With is still working, the enemy does not run out, meaning the battle the lost from a lack of ammo doesn't happen. And it snowballs.
The novels, and even scenario pacts suggested fusion engines explode. It was brought up that they did not in the entire history of the game.
With vehicles needing shielding, the question is why? They original reason was the radiation that was put out by the engines, which changed during the rules updates.
Same with only one hit destroys the vehicle, yet only increases heat output in mechs. For most, this will cripple a tank, but there are some that have enough sinks to continue a limited firing pattern. The Shreck ppc carrier comes to mind.
And as said before. All these mechs made in the League time and none of them except the mackie was ever used in 3025, with the Goliath being the first that I now of. Never in any of the scenarios or books before the 3025 era, and only the Dragoons/Irregulars, knew about them with Comstar being the only IS entity that did.
Which also leads to the question of why the HPG's never seen upgrades? WOB used jumpships with ranges further then normal, so they had the information to send data alot further then what they did. Another hole in the game. And sadly, it seems the HPGs are the same now as they were in League times.
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Requiem
06/18/18 06:37 PM
58.175.193.140
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Why the shift from Capital Missiles and aerospace fighters?
QUOTE: “Example. Infantry destroys the mechs that were sent to destroy an ammo depot. With is still working, the enemy does not run out, meaning the battle the lost from a lack of ammo doesn't happen. And it snowballs.”
Would not a more accurate portrayal be, The Infantry stand guard protecting their ammo dump. Unbeknown to them a Jump-ship slips into a pirate point releasing its drop-ships slowly edging closer to the planet when they release their aerospace assets. As daggers these craft slip through the space / atmosphere border as they speed towards the target, then opening the bomb bay doors they release their ordinance …unknown until all hell breaks around them the ammo dump explodes in multiple waves of devastation as the infantry find themselves caught in a violent firestorm of death and destruction ……as the aerospace craft leave unmolested and triumphant.
Fusion engines? … was this posted in the wrong spot?
QUOTE: “the question of why the HPG's never seen upgrades?”
We are talking about Comstar …. The same Comstar that up to a certain point wanted humanity to fail who also wanted no technological development what so ever … and even went to the exteme of murdering scientists throughout the IS ….
Post this time (reformation) new HPG’s were built … Katherine’s direct line between New Avalon and Tharkad comes to mind ….
Though in all probability if the Great House’s wanted their HPGs updated they would have to pay for it not Comstar …. So why pay for an upgrade when what we have is working so well ….ie. normal polies making future decisions
Suggest you have a look at HPGs during the Jihad times and their ranges ….. go to wiki and put in Super-HPGs
So now back to the lack capitol Missiles and bomber craft ....the complete lack there of ... why Arrow IV 'Mech took no time at all to be created but Arrow IV aerospace took forever ..... what / why?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/02/18 04:08 AM
58.175.193.140
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First,
We all understand the principles of a Clan Batchall,
And as per The Clans Warriors of Kerensky, p. 18, ….. the Clans largely dismissed the combat abilities of the Inner Sphere militaries, and chose to send only four of the seventeen Clans to attack the Successor States…. The bidding and Trials to determine the participants were fierce…
After the Batchall has been completed adding reinforcements is seen as …. ‘reduced’ honour / dishonourable?
We know the goal was to reach Terra and conquer it first to become the ilClan – the one clan to rule them all in perpetuity …. Therefore,
Question – when each Clan thus adds reinforcement from the home worlds why was the political ramifications of this never discussed?
(ie. when Clan Smoke Jaguar called for reinforcements from the home world they had violated their winning bid to be in the invasion corridor …. Or am I wrong? – the size of their attack force was to remain constant throughout the entire invasion and no new units would be allowed?)
Because it is quite clear, as discussed previously that they did not have enough forces to garrison all their worlds captured and at the same time persecute the war to reach Terra First.
As by Tukayyid it is quite clear they had extended their front line beyond their ability to prosecute the war – their rear supply lines were becoming grossly over-extended ….
Question – what if any could these have been?
Secondly,
Post Tukayyid …. Inner Sphere forces have 15 years before the resumption of the Clan war … thus we have entered a 15 year rearmament phase … correct?
In a rearmament phase government / military / industry / civilians all work together with one goal ….
To build a bigger better (meaner) military ….
Question: Where is the evidence that new anti-clan ‘Mech units were being formed for this sole purpose … ie. New RCTs with New more advanced Mechs and weapons systems and the training to combat a new offensive in 15 years?
The military would want to begin this asap and build upon them one after the next so that the maximum resources are available to establish the maximum amount of new RCTs …. Correct?
So where is the evidence of this build up in new ‘Mech / aerospace regiments?
Or are we to assume that his was an …. Oops moment again?
Your thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/02/18 04:47 AM)
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ghostrider
07/02/18 12:02 PM
66.74.61.223
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Again, the lack of understanding shows in the questions.
Garrison forces are not part of the original bid. They could have 200,000 mechs brought in, but would stick to the original bid as close as they can for attacking purposes. Defense is different. Without a batchall and trial, the limiting of forces is not done.
And that is also not saying the clans have not broken the bids either. They have. Generally, they suffer from something like a loss of face, to even being reassigned to a solamha unit, to worse.
Now it needs to be said that having your reinforcements with you, so you can keep the numbers there when you suffer losses would be a smart thing. Using those troops outside the bid would violate their own trial rules.
The reinforcement clans would be a little less prestigious then the invading clans, but a hell of a lot more pride then being stuck on the home worlds. So would you rather be home safe? Or being ready to hit the front lines when needed. And this could well go towards having the garrison units close by for dealing with counter attacks. The reinforcement clans may well have been sent to deal with it. I have not seen this printed anywheres, but then there are a lot of implied things in the game.
As for bases and supply chains, you need to talk with those that developed the game. It is known, clan wolf started making forward depots during their run thru the FRR. It is stated as being done so. This upset the other khans, as it put their tech within striking distance of IS counterstrikes. Until you have their numbers on what was where and how much, there can be no real answer to this. And from what I know, not many of those people come here on a regular basis.
Rearmament runs counter to the new construction statement in an earlier posting. The IS only uses salvage to rebuild with, not new materials.
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ghostrider
07/02/18 12:18 PM
66.74.61.223
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The shift from capital missiles to fighters should never have relied on the capital missiles to begin with. Except when jumping into another sphere. You pop into a jump point and see warships there. You aren't going to have time to undock the dropships and get fighters in the air before the warships start attacking. Though energy weapons is more preferred for the ability to avoid running out of ammo. Just like ground based combat. The range is the only real reason for using the missiles.
And the suggestion was to basically arm shuttles and such with explosives and send them in, instead of using the fighters to deliver the loads.
The HPG statement shows assumption of Comstar doing the upgrading. Why not the clans?
It would be in their best interest that during the invasion, they have HPGs that reach a longer range, so you don't need a station every 30 light years or so. They upgraded most everything else, why not them?
So with a single jump ever week, you would need about 52 HPG stations along the supply trail to contact homeworlds. And that would be EACH clan. Not one for the whole invasion force. Suggesting they avoid the waste and use one set is basically giving the enemy the ability to destroy you, as your information is in their hands.
The fusion engines statement, according to the context of the statement, was part of issues that changed how the game was perceived by others. A fusion engine exploding took out other units, such as grabbing an enemy mech as blowing the engine, when the mech doing so had no ammo.
The lack of bombers goes to the basis of the game itself. Few want to play fighter pilots, as well as tank crews and such. Most want to play mech warriors, and mechs were the main thing everyone wanted. So making the mech designs is the priority. Fighters and vehicles die to easily with the odd crits. Atmospheric flights being the worst of them.
Would/should they have done something with making them? You bet. But bombing with a fighter against ground targets was screwed up, so now it just isn't worth it. Warships don't seem to be the thing the developers wanted to go with, but the fact you can have armed dropships with fighters and such guarding jump points, shown they needed a way to deal with it, without changing the rules there. Doing so would have really got most asking what where they thinking.
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Requiem
07/02/18 09:18 PM
58.175.193.140
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Where is it written – in which Book, page no, quote – where it specifically states that garrison forces are not included in the bidding and trials and you can add additional forces for this specific purpose of garrison forces?
Cray, do you know if it is written anywhere – that garrison forces can be added at any time to a Clans initial bid of conquering the IS? As I read it it is just like infantry – you attack, you capture (overcome), and you hold – nothing was said about being relieved form additional garrison forces from the Clans Home Worlds except by Nova Cat and Viper. The bid was for all of your forces to get from Periphery to Terra and holding with those forces only … or did I miss something somewhere?
Secondly where is written that IS forces are only allowed Salvage – what about all the technical manuals / novels which include newly designed and manufactured mechs?
Thus we can only say the writers decided that no new RCTs were to be formed in the IS after the Clan Invasion … no military has ever, ever done this when in this situation, they always create new units building their available forces up to be able to fight the enemy as their available size was not strong enough in the initial engagement!!!! …. Can we say a big Oops again!!!!
As for capitol missiles – Warships were and are the biggest menace on the battlefield – so how do you destroy them without resulting to a 5KT Nuke that will turn them into a mass of evaporated metal and scraps floating through space? (look again at the thermal temperature of a nuke it is greater than the sun so how do you survive that?)
With Warships removed you can retaliate – recapture worlds etc
Hamstringing the IS is a great way to becoming disillusioned and quit playing the game! – so again I ask why they decreased the size of FC from 280 Mech Regiments (20 year update) to that of about a third of that for the Clan wars?
Oops again? Or on purpose? If the Clans invaded with the IS at its original strength and were allowed RACTs (capitol missiles); commando actions in the rear, attacks against their staging / supply depos in the periphery and deep periphery, would have been gutted?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/03/18 08:33 PM
66.74.61.223
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You suggested the IS only salvages things, when asked why the FC did not build new factories instead of needing the CC's for your alt history. So reread it, and start remembering what was said, not what was thought to be said. It makes it easier to avoid having to rehash alot of the same junk.
How did they destroy dropships? The suggestion of using 108 fighters to attack a single vessel should tell you, you don't need nukes. Simple weapons damage from the fighters will kill a warship. Oh wait. So the alamo nukes should have been used the entire time in the succession wars as it was the only way to kill dropships?
And I have not found where the range of the missile is stated. It may well be, a normal PPC will outrange it, and do the same damage as the alamo. Without the radiation left by the nuke.
And what do you know. You can use it the next round, and so on. It is not a one shot wonder. And now having 108 fighters with a single ppc does what if they all hit? 108 capital points of damage. No worries of having only two shots. No worries of the warship blowing your dropship to dust before you can launch. Even ground based capital weapons are a threat. So guess nuking them is the best way as well. Who needs to live on the world anyways?
The fixation on the nukes has stopped any thinking outside of using them. They are the worst solution to the problem, as they kill all sides where the radiation is concerned.
Again. The solutions presented here are not for all, and should not be presented as the ONLY way things could be done. Several of the books said the IS had no idea of where the clans had what. And intel is only good for a limited time. The warship can jump to another system, maybe even your staging area and take out your fleet before you can do anything. Oh wait. That stops the entire idea of using this. And the loss of dropships and jumpships to do your massed nuke run can not be easily replaced.
The warship may be dead, but the clans have more. And all bets are off as to limiting the destruction they will wreak.
And this does not even touch others in the IS using those nukes to 'protect themselves from others in the IS' as you put forth for the reason to use them against the clans. Free Skye would be happen to take out Katherine with a misplaced nuke. And saying they had to, in order to prevent her from killing them all would be valid. Following the IS using them against the clans.
One more thing. The canon story is NOT going to make sense most of the time, since they are coming out with new things and want to make money. Without a new war, it just doesn't work. I hate the holes in it. I hate their saying one thing won't work, but use it in another fashion because they want it to. Sound familiar?
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ghostrider
07/03/18 09:30 PM
66.74.61.223
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Wolf Clan Sourcebook, #1842. Page 37 under the section of fourth wave.
The ilKhan did attempt to slow Clan Wolf by refusing to allow them to use the Provisional Garrison Clusters (PGCs) for occupation duties being handled by the frontline troops. He claimed that PGCs had not been part of the initial invasion bid. This was true enough, but these essentially administrative units are not traditionally considered part of a bid. He was challenged by the Wolf khans, who pointed out that the ilKhan had already authorized they use of PGCs for his own Smoke Jaguars.
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Requiem
07/03/18 11:29 PM
58.175.193.140
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Ok … Provisional Garrison Units were allowed into the IS to free up their main line units that were supposed to have second line equipment. The Clans (writers) cheated by using semantics … and were allowed to reinforce their newly captured worlds …. and why did no one engage in a Right of refusal …. Because, it was in their best interests to allow it ….
However at the same time IS forces were not allowed to reinforce their positions by creating new RCTs or RACTs – can we say favouritism towards the clans …..
So again we have a double standard as to the game where one side is given more from Pax FC to Pax Clan … because they realised the amount they brought in could not hold the area that was taken …. So why was there never an attack in their rear … again poor writing …
As for bringing up the CC - ??????? – two different time periods so no point here ….
As for using nukes – it is the easiest way to kill a ship – one hit by one 5KT warhead only. As for writing that a PPC = Nuke – can someone get a grip and look at the science of the two …. A nukes thermal temperature is above that of a sun where a PPC is ? - Strategically and Tactically, sometimes they are the best way to win … and we are using them in space so fallout ????? ad for numbers they did not have an unlimited supply.
100 Wolds – 100 Jumpships – 100 Vengeance Dropships – 800 Nukes all coordinated like that of Operation Galahad etc – and the entire fleet of an entire clan disappears stranding them on the worlds they are on - then move on to the next Clan in a sweep from both FC and DC at the same time – this would work, so again why not why did we have to wait until the Jihad for nukes
And what about that of the capital missile as a substitute for a Nuke? Why did we have to wait for their introduction?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 02:43 AM
66.74.61.223
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The Alamo is a 5 kiloton nuclear missile which can be carried by aerospace and conventional fighters. They can be used either in space or in an atmosphere to attack air and ground targets, but don't have the range for orbital bombardments or to attack targets in orbit while in an atmosphere. Though fairly lightweight at only five tons, an Alamo still negatively affects the carrying fighter's flight characteristics per missile carried (only fighters of 50 tons or greater can carry an Alamo, while only a 100-ton fighter can carry two). When used in an atmosphere an Alamo can either operate in ground- or air-burst modes with a range of over ten kilometers, which it can travel in just twenty seconds.[2]
From the wiki, it seems to suggest the alamo has a range of 1 if the post about a space hex being 18 km was correct. As this seems to be the only missile that can be used on a fighter, that means you need a 50 up to 100 ton fighter to even use them.
The PPC is longer range then that, though it is odd that it says a 5 KT does 10 capital damage, yet this is lighter then the normal ones of that size.
Not sure where you got the 100 worlds, 100 jumpships, 100 vengeance carriers from. But with the best way to win, why bother landing on the clan worlds? Why not just nuke them from orbit and not risk your land forces? Then that goes to fights in the IS. Why bother landing when you can wipe out the enemy from orbit? And not all worlds have the factories to try and take.
Secondly where is written that IS forces are only allowed Salvage – what about all the technical manuals / novels which include newly designed and manufactured mechs?
That statement is in response to You suggested the IS only salvages things, when asked why the FC did not build new factories instead of needing the CC's for your alt history came from.
Maybe rereading the post thoroughly might be in order. Too much missing information seems to be coming up.
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Requiem
07/04/18 05:53 AM
58.175.193.140
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Comprehension …. Me missing information … Ha Ha Ha … go back and read your own …
100 worlds is an example.
Re-read your previous posts in re to what was written re salvage and building factories.
My post was re building up-to (ore even more) 30 new RCTs and RACTs during the reconstruction phase of the IS (ie. between Tukayyid and Operation Bulldog / Serpent) for just the FC and also replicated for Draconis Combine and Free Worlds League that are specifically designed for anti-clan warfare – thus the IS has 90+ RCTs / RACTs designed to eradicate the clans ( a point that was never done by the writers and makes absolutely no Tactical / strategic sense – it is on the same level as that of the FC not attacking the CC during the 3039 war – which shows that no one on the writing team had any military training whatsoever – borders on the ridiculous again …. Another Oops of the highest magnitude – they totally missed the obvious again)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 06:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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This just in.
Free Skye rebels have taken the missile production wing at Defiance Industries on Hesperrus II, and threatened to detonate the nukes there that are part of the counter offense against the clans if the FC forces did not leave the planet, and the Skye Federation.
The commanding officer of the defense forces claimed they would not do so, and began to take back the facility.
Sometime during the operations the nukes were detonated, gutting most of the factories here, and making it impossible for anything to live in the general area.
The Free Skye left a message saying they have a right to defend themselves from the aggressors.
As is human nature, the idea of using what ever is available to defend yourself from threats has escalated the use of nukes in the IS.
Since the forces attacking the clans started using them, so have all the rebellious and radical groups in the IS. The rush for nukes or even just the materials to use them has driven up the prices to a point where even the houses are having a hard time securing it.
In other news, the Black Dragons have reportedly equipped Thunderbolt missiles with a nuke warhead, normally known as a 'Davey Crockett'. Several were dropped on border worlds with the DC and started using them against any and all, including the DCMS.
Other news coming in, suggest more nuclear strikes against government targets and enemies has been reported, but not confirmed at this time. Stay tuned as we get more information in.
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Requiem
07/04/18 08:18 PM
58.175.193.140
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And so a new chaos succession war begins as humanity takes its final steps towards self-immolation … death fire and plague brought on upon man’s ignorance, desire and greed.
Death has become the adventure of all who wish to aggrandize their cause.
As death laughs … all die … behold the handmaidens of lies … truth lies hidden
The dream has become the nightmare … darkness descends … let those who wish to walk the path of darkness do so for this is their fate
Levity … let the phoenix fly … mockery lost …
If a full and complete nuclear winter is your choice of a fruitful game let it be so as for me I will find a new bay from which to fight.
War criminals and the desperate seek power through such implements of misbegotten power, a strange compulsion which leads them through dark pathways.
The true warrior shrinks not from duty but neither does he revel in death.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/08/18 03:52 AM
66.74.61.223
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My point is the writing is completely and utterly wrong, why is that what is written is considered absolute and factual? … can anyone explain this?
This statement is one of those times you said the writers are wrong.
The context was dealing with the writers not following the way battles were fought, even though they decided how the game would work.
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Requiem
07/08/18 04:49 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: why is that what is written is considered absolute and factual?
Both those on the stage and those within the audience can have at times a misconception as to what is really going on.
For the author and the reader this is also true – misconception – words can have more than one meaning and from one country to another certain phases can have different meanings.
Alas we do not live in a society where the author’s writing and the readers meaning of said work can be vastly different due to writing style, a turn of a phrase or even the choice of word can change the between the authors writing and that of the person reading said work.
Quote: This statement is one of those times you said the writers are wrong.
Copy and paste into a quote please.
As for context yours or mine…..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/08/18 08:21 PM
66.74.61.223
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This entire argument came from the lack of properly worded statements. This had to be the way it was done, verse I would have done.
When presented with the canon facts, which are absolute for the writers in the game, the assumption of what was available comes up and suggest they are wrong.
No numbers, just an assumption of what is available.
Presenting the alt histories isn't the issue. It is saying the writers were wrong.
The idea of needing an alt history, and rewrite says they were wrong. But this simple fact will not suffice.
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Requiem
07/08/18 09:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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These are my option’s as to the overall writing template - if it doesn’t make sense I will say so… if I believe they were in error in writing a story in a particular way …. I believe I have the right to criticize their work … I have that right, freedom of thought and freedom of speech ….
When writing a military novel, like sport, you will always have arm-chair generals who will criticise their work … look for errors / make a speech as to what they should have done to win etc etc
This is our right …. The Clan war, again in my opinion, was written to a very low level – there are too many plot holes that make absolutely no sense whatsoever …. They need fixing to make the game better …. Cannon history should not be considered an absolute …. If we can have revised rules to make the game better why can we not have revised history to make the game better?
Thus the need for a re-write of history as per re-writes of rules
If it is good for one aspect of the game, then why not for all of the game ….
Can you say what I am suggesting is that wrong? …. Let’s expand and make the game’s history more exciting give the players more areas to play in …
For example:-
Piracy / Letters of Mark / Ant-Clan Units in the Periphery (hunting supply ships and supply depos.)
Fix Aerospace Rules so that Big wings can Take on Warships (bring in Battle of Brittan and WWII Pacific Campaign)
Rather than just going after one Clan (Jags) – Go against all of them (as in all reality this is what is required)
Fix the rules / Law for the Star League's First Lord - SLDF et al
Bring in Commando Units – behind the lines operations
Bring in Anti-elemental weapons
Bring in My aerospace “capital missiles” etc etc
And as for going to Huntress and not returning with a gift basket of technology and buildings is absolutely ludicrous – Look at the end of WWII Germanys V1 and V2 program – America got the scientists and Russia the infrastructure ….. this is perhaps one of the biggest plot holes that hamstrings the IS for all future wars with the Clans due to the technology Gap.
Can anyone say that any rational person would do this?
For in a war setting these areas of battle that are not there Canon left them out, however, they need to be included to make the game more believable and more fun (and again this is in my opinion and my right to criticize)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/08/18 06:00 PM
58.175.193.140
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One more issue,
Battle of Tukayyid – May 1st to 21st 3052 – in which the Truce of Tukayyid is established for the next fifteen years.
Invasion of Coventry by Clan Jade Falcon – March to June 3058
First Whitting Conference - October 1st 3058 – resurrection of the Star League
Task Force Serpent and Operation Bulldog launched – May 3059
Thus, why so quick off the mark? The truce does not end until 3067 ….
Why not invest in a couple of years of
• research and development ;
• New Battlemech and Aerospace Designs (including 2nd Gen. Omni and Power Armour);
• Increased Manufacturing throughout the entire IS with the aim of ….
• Building new Consumable Depots, RCTs, RACTs, Warships, Pocket Warships etc.
* Training Vs. OpFor against those who were within the initial Clan Invasion. etc
Then when you have enough New forces rather than go after one Clan you can go after them all …
Oooops again ….. requiring a military Adviser to advise? how would the politics of this work out as a Great House Leader your obligation is to all of your people, especially when they have been conquered by an foreign power such as the Clans.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/08/18 09:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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Supposition of what they had in forces, as well as information?
It seems the IS didn't think they had the forces to take on all the clans at once, so limited it to just the jaguars, and used the brutal ways, including, but not limited to, Turtle Bay.
The invasion of Coventry probably was in response to the refusal war, and they had to show they were not hurt by it. Show of force.
Then the idea of logic doesn't fit in battle tech, since making money on it, requires conflicts so they can come out with TRO's and such every so often, as well as new rules sets.
Oooops again ….. requiring a military Adviser to advise? how would the politics of this work out as a Great House Leader your obligation is to all of your people, especially when they have been conquered by an foreign power such as the Clans.
Have you actually asked the developers if they had a military advisor helping them? Or maybe some of them were in the military. I don't know. And from the implications here, neither do you.
As for the last statement of foreign powers running worlds, refer to the ENTIRE history of the IS, especially with the succession wars section. But then I guess the CC isn't a concern with this. The FS wasn't so nice to the conquered people of the CC as you seem to think. Overall, it is better then most, but some leaders were resentful and did go the rout of the brutal occupation. Otherwise, Melissa would not have removed them and replaced them with LC forces. But then logic holes isn't just the canon versions.
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Requiem
09/09/18 12:39 AM
58.175.193.140
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As stated previously the cannon interpretation of the Clan invasion and the responses required of the Inner Sphere forces is written with no understanding what-so-ever of any tactical or political acumen, thus the need for a professional who could have liaised with the production development team – hence a more accurate story could have been developed that that of the hack writing that was was provided.
Why an invasion of both Clan Jade Falcon and Wolf was never executed during / or at the end of the Refusal War and taking advantage of their damaged position, makes no sense whatsoever to the war on Coventry by allowing the Jade Falcons to just leave also makes little sense.
However the greatest indignity is that of the timing between the re-establishment of the Star League and that of the Commencement of Operation Bulldog and Serpent.
Thus showing a clear lack of understanding of any military understanding as to the time required to prepare for and execute a major assault as that of Operation Bulldog and Serpent.
Example – logistics for D-Day WWII, the planning for moving hundreds of thousands of men, their materials, vehicles and equipment, transferred to hundreds of embarkation ports and airfields. So, how many years did it take to build this force and to plan for the invasion, in comparison to that of the IS with Operation Bulldog and Serpent? …. It does not make any sense!
As the aim of all IS states is the removal of ALL the Clans, not just one.
However, what we do get is the writers interfering again due to their limited understanding of how the development of the story should proceed.
Thus why not give yourself more time? (as the 15 year truce is still in effect) – build new Omni-Mechs / Omni-Fighters / Power Armour / Anti- Elemental Weapons, RCTs, RACTs, Dropships, Pocket Warships, Warships. Liaise with local Partisan forces so that they can dsrupt Clan forces on the day - thus providing a better chance of success than just using the forces that are on hand right now.
All of this requires time to get into position!!!!!
Plus this would have given the IS time to perfect new weapon systems and training
For, how can you expect FC and DC troops to work side by side unless you have trained them to do so – at this time they still hate each other – time is required to get them to work as one harmonious army.
Also, if more time was used then in all probability the WOB would have been allowed into the Star League and their Shadow Divisions would have been included into the SLDF.
As it is currently written, it is just laughable as to the extent of what was written as to what in any real military organisation would have required to design and execute the operation.
As for the last statement, missed the point regarding the difference between an Internal and External invader during the history of the IS and how this should have been perceived by anyone within the IS.
The entire invasion could have been written in such a way as to expand the universe – however, due to a lock of understanding and imagination we are provided with a story that defies any logical or rational forethought or understanding regarding military or political procedures.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/09/18 04:38 AM
66.74.61.223
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Example – logistics for D-Day WWII, the planning for moving hundreds of thousands of men, their materials, vehicles and equipment, transferred to hundreds of embarkation ports and airfields. So, how many years did it take to build this force and to plan for the invasion, in comparison to that of the IS with Operation Bulldog and Serpent? …. It does not make any sense!
Really?
A single country moving forces across a world, but yet no understand on how it took so long for 5 nations, 4 if you FC is kept as one, that did not trust one another, to come up with the materials and such to move those forces not across a world, but light years away from support and supplies. Just getting the units together is a challenge in itself.
This is not some simple romp a few thousand miles.
You want accuracy from a role playing game yet won't talk to the developers? Logic in a game does not sell books and such. Only playing it does. I hate the money grabs that was done a few times, but I do understand the need for it at times. New mechs came out in adventure packs, and not everyone bought them. Same with the house books and such. New things come up and need to be clarified so tournament rules are not just sprung on people at the cons.
Thus why not give yourself more time?
Why give your enemy the time to rebuild as well as fortify or worse. Continue to assault your worlds, as you have already proven, you can not defend them. A full offensive now may put them on the defensive. Not all worlds were safe with the truce.
Again. Using future information to justify the ends. At the time of the decision, only WOB knew anything about what they were doing, and they didn't tell anyone else. Hell, WOB invaded Terra. That alone makes them look like an enemy. But yet, that fact seems to have create a plot hole here.
As for the last statement, missed the point regarding the difference between an Internal and External invader during the history of the IS and how this should have been perceived by anyone within the IS.
Being invaded doesn't matter by whom, just that your people are now under someone else's control.
how would the politics of this work out as a Great House Leader your obligation is to all of your people, especially when they have been conquered by an foreign power such as the Clans.
For the IS houses, the some of the clans treated the people better then rival houses.
The history, as well as being stated in the novels, says they will take the worlds back at a later time. Most barely know they are under new rulership. Some clans were horrible with their conquests.
Again. Talk to the developers. All of the supposition being put up and then saying it is the only way it should have been, and saying the writers don't know what they are doing,
Well remember this. They are selling books, and we are here not making any money from it. Horrible or not, they are making money on it.
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Requiem
09/09/18 06:36 AM
58.175.193.140
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Wow, D Day A single country moving forces across a world, a simple romp a few thousand miles ….
Day One –
approx. 156,000 troops landed on Normandy – involving British, American, Canadian, Free-French, etc.; 11,590 aircraft; 50,000 vehicles; 13,000 paratroopers; 6,939 Vessels involved in Operation Neptune
Within five days – 326,547 troops and 104,428 tons of supplies had been landed plus an additional 54,000 vehicles
By the end of June – the Allies had landed 850,000 men and 150,000 vehicles
There is no logic in the historical development of the game the only logic is in playing the game?
If there is no logic in the historical development then it is all just one big black hole made up at the whim of the developer – thus anything is possible?
If this is so why then so ardent against my plan to invade the Deep Periphery? Why keep saying they do not have the resources if resources are not required to determine a major campaign only the OK of the game developer?
As for the Clans attempting to garrison a world – their lack of security - partisan activity would continue (assassination, bombing etc) to keep them off balance …
Yes I agree no one knew about the WOB Forces. But if a later date was used then yes you can say they should be included - and would their technology be shared with all the armies of the SLDF? (It makes for an interesting topic on its own!)
As for being conquered by the Clans – think about the cultural differences between the two societies – this would have placed a huge psychological strain upon the conquered people – so yes, it is a big deal!
As for talking to the developers regarding the Clans takeover of planets and how they treated the people – why not read the books like the 1st Somerset Striker, the Jade Falcons’ re-education camps etc
As for selling books – when it first came out I had one shop’s total stock that was about half related to just Battletch. Also consider the volume of books being produced, that too has dropped off considerably.
So, now I can only get it online via Amazon – so selling books has now become what? And their profit margin is also reduced? How long will this remain before the owners stop it all together because the money is just not there?
However, I have not received a reply to my underlying question….
What would the situation be for both the IS and Clans if a massive re-armament program was initiated and rather than launching Operation Bulldog and Serpent in 3059 they go in 3065-66
How much more resources – Mechs, Fighters, Dropships, Pocket Warshisps, Warships, Power Armour, New Weapon Systems, New RCTs, New RACTs etc would have been established for the IS?
Would they have been in a position to take on all the IS Clans rather than just the Jaguars?
Again this proves the inadequacy of the game developers / writers, how hard wold it have been to design a complete rout of those clans that do not defect rather than Just One?
Would not this have driven more sales than just the couple of books based upon the destruction of the Jaguars – as this would have required more books to write the war – thus more sales – more profit?
In all probability there would have been a need for a new Technical Readout Book as well as new miniatures etc.
Hence more profit? – It is just too slipshod in its development as it stands as far as I am concerned
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/09/18 04:42 PM
66.74.61.223
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There is no logic in the historical development of the game the only logic is in playing the game?
Suggesting sending troops across an ocean compared to several hundred light years with about a weeks worth of charging a jump drive, and some how you got no logic in history?
it is all just one big black hole made up at the whim of the developer – thus anything is possible?
It is a sci fi game. DUH!
If this is so why then so ardent against my plan to invade the Deep Periphery?
I am against your fantasy numbers of what the IS has, and using those fantasy numbers to say the writers were wrong for doing what they did with their numbers with their game. But some how, this fact is not registering. The argument of using made up numbers to argue with someone elses made up numbers, and bashing them, because you have no clue on what they had to deal with. And as this is the whim of the developer, they are right.
But if a later date was used then yes you can say they should be included - and would their technology be shared with all the armies of the SLDF?
This is the tech they took from comstar when they invaded earth. How, at the time of the clan wars, could you even think they would in the canonverse? I know I didn't when it was being played out. Pretty sure almost everyone that wasn't part of the planning didn't know this.
Operation Serpent was done to stop the invasion for good. Then the IS leaders didn't try to remove the rest, as it may well have reignited the war again. Then again, it would have removed their future story lines, like the red corsair, or the invasion of Coventry and such. Logical? Not from what real life would do, but it was set up to make more stories.
The books not being in print may well be the cost of doing so. Trying to make a product, and having those making it charge so much that people normally are not willing to spend 50 to 100 bucks on a single book, no matter how well written. Economic demands come into effect here. Anyone that has any knowledge of business knows this.
And that isn't going into the greed of those making the game coming into effect. This is based on most companies. The execs want more money with less effort on their part.
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Requiem
09/09/18 07:50 PM
58.175.193.140
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In understanding Operation Overlord and Neptune you begin to understand the multiple levels of complexity that arise when attempting an invasion of this size.
Thus when it comes to Operation Bulldog and Serpent and their level of complexity, how would their complexity in establishing multiple invasions on multiple worlds all at the same time be?
Would it be even greater than that of when the Capellans lost half / all or their worlds during the last Succession War and the war of 39-40?
How long would it take to even devise and implement – consider the time it would take to rotate out line troops and replace them with other units at the same time and all the logistics that go with an invasion of this scale – Planning alone should have taken 9 – 12 months!
Plus you need for each IS State to rise to the occasion
Establish bridges over the differences in each realm
Get over the mistrust, Get over the bad blood
It cannot be all bitter misconception and political boxing
…. and all this requires time to implement …. And yet it was written in such a way as that all the units could do it in a couple of months …. Let us all suspend reality and just go with it ….
As for different possible game developments – double standards – cannon writers Vs game writers?
As for a later Start and introducing the WOB Shadow Forces et al – once they become part of the Star League (and fulfilling he master’s prophesy) I cannot see any issues with them helping all of the IS as they did with the Free Worlds League – so why not have all the front line units now outfitted with WOB Omni technology plus all others.
If this became the Cannon, it is my opinion, that it would have reinvigorated the entire game even to the point of getting a new box set and other books and promotional material back into the Game Store with the right advertising strategy – massive armies fighting from the IS to the Clan Home Worlds and a final Invasion of those worlds. It would have improved the game immensely, but what we got was ….. the disastrous plot development of the Jihad.
(with only source materials and no novels, this speaks volumes as to how bad the idea really was)
If Operation Serpent was to stop the Invasion for good it failed miserably – as it did not stop anything – in addition to when the opportunity arose to obtain a copy of plus factories of Clan Technology the IS obtained nothing???????
Errr …. Operation Serpent was after the Red Corsair Incident and Coventry …. It was before the First Whitting Conference where they established the re-birth of the new Star League.
So how can you have a good story without a degree of logic? You can’t you only get a sub-standard story …. And that is what was provided
Buyer behaviour and adverting still play a part when it comes to marketing a product – starting off with just an e-book format means the business no longer has the capital to start with a print copy.
Taken together with the lack of advertising within trade magazines and game stores this can only lead to one conclusion.
That their operating budget must be very small – and most of that is for wages alone.
Thus their parent company is unwilling to consider any capital investment to grow the product at this time ( no faith in the product to increase profit margins).
Thus the game is probably just one step away from being cancelled all together due to a consistent lack of growth / profit over multiple periods.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/09/18 11:17 PM)
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ghostrider
09/10/18 01:02 AM
66.74.61.223
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Interesting that the length of time for invasions is sooo long when you want the forces to build up, yet demanded that the IS states that were attacked by the clans, during the initial invasion, then the battle of tukyyid, happen immediately, as well as having the DC launch a full strike on the Sabre Cat in retaliation for Turtle Bay. And this doesn't sound hypocritical or contradictive of each other?
I will agree the novel writers tended to screw up the rules in their books. That is established fact. Exploding fusion engines being a big one. Yet the basic outline of what the developers wanted had to be followed.
Now. Drop all the information you have after the invasion started, and think of what you have right then and there. Now make your decisions. And this time, get the facts from the developers on the numbers of what the IS had. The numbers before the invasion are what you have, not those they had before the 3039 war, as your alt has, THEN compare it to canon.
Just because they did not use your numbers of what was there, means they are stupid and wrong?
They have no clue on your numbers what so ever. They used theirs. And maybe even not that. They might have just thrown things on the wall and seen what stuck.
Want to buy hobby books? Alot of hobby stores no longer exist, or carry the wide varieties they did in the past. And buying on line, not e-books, is cheaper then the brick and mortar shops. So where are you going to put the limited budget for this at? Waste alot of money printing out thousands of books that will probably sit in a warehouse, or do it on demand?
I do agree the game has not done any real advertising in a long while.
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Requiem
09/10/18 05:12 AM
58.175.193.140
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In response to the first paragraph – No, SOP during the invasion in that a defending force would initiate multiple guerrilla combat doctrines including striking at the enemies supply line.
As for believing everything regarding the plot development as written must be accepted as “it”, is a complete and utter fallacy the majority of situations that characters find themselves in beggars belief as to its lack of realism.
The invasion as it stands is completely boring – if re written you may be able to get some life into the story.
Cheaper does not mean better – how is the game to grow if the only advertising is completed through word of mouth? It can’t and unless a new marketing strategy is implemented soon I cannot see the game surviving in the real world for much longer, especially when the number of players diminishes each year to a reduced number of novels and game supplements resulting in a reduced lack of interest. (Compare it to the number of 40K produced each month)
So unless there is a new White Knight who will inject funds into the game to keep it afloat how long can the game continue as is?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/10/18 11:54 AM
66.74.61.223
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In response to the first paragraph – No, SOP during the invasion in that a defending force would initiate multiple guerrilla combat doctrines including striking at the enemies supply line.
This was not what was said in those posts. It was stated the FC/DC/FRR should have been striking back before the Ilkhan died, and the blood named went back to the clan worlds, and especially during that time. Then it was stated they should have retaken worlds after the truce went into effect. And the latest now says they should have removed all the clans from the IS.
Then it was said the loss of face by the combine for the Turtle Bay incident would have honor demand they hunt down the Sabre Cat and destroy it. And with that, it was suggested the DC could never have peace with anyone as the loss of face would demand they punish all for any transactions, which losing worlds and even battles to the LC/FS/FC/FRR and such would demand.
And with new statement of they should have waited until they could rebuild, refit, train new units to specifically counter the clans directly argues against the first statements and thoughts put out.
The invasion as it stands is completely boring – if re written you may be able to get some life into the story.
Completely boring is your opinion, but not one I agree with. There were things that could have been better. Rewriting almost anything can make it more lively. But rewriting it using facts and numbers in your mind, that is not the same ones in the developers/writers minds isn't going to happen. Saying they did it wrong, as you don't know what they were dealing with, is where this whole issue comes about. Fix the rules first, then redo the entire history. I would think the entire landscape of the IS as well as the clans would be changed.
A plot hole that seems to be missed is Solaris 7 and the mech duels. Mechs are supposed to have been rare, and hard to come by, yet the stables on world bought new and used ones to fight in the arenas. The military supposedly didn't have enough to fill in holes in their ranks, yet the stables could buy them without problems?
As said before. The rare version of the infantry srm could be manipulated in flight. Sounds like a streak system to me, as well as not saying those one required special munitions. So that would say ALL srms used by that launcher would be capable of it, and I have not seen anything that suggests they are not the same ones used in mechs and tanks.
Infantry supposedly protected several worlds from invaders. At least one story said an invader took one of those worlds and sent on their forces to help reinforce another world. Then they changed the way infantry took damage. Instead of falling quickly, before they could be reinforced, or hold the enemy to that world and avoid them from being used elsewhere, which would then, in turn, allow other worlds to be saved. Even normal battles would have been changed. Battles won or lost that weren't before.
The one battle with rebels on the clan worlds. If they were not taking the damage as the original rules had, would Alexander Kerensky have died in the one fight that had inferno infantry keeping his mech aflame? Or keeping reinforcements away, possible destroying them as well?
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Requiem
09/10/18 05:05 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, striking Back and retaking worlds, guerrilla activity, Deep Strike Periphery Units and the hunting down all of the Smoke Jaguars Warships is SOP during the Invasion.
Post 15 year truce the Inner Sphere has the time to rebuild and rearm –creating many new Pocket Warships, Warships, RCTs, RACTs –new Mech designs (second gen. omni) New Aerospace and new Power Armour plus new weapon systems for these vehicles and their Infantry.
Thus once the Inner Sphere is ready they should then have plans to attack and destroy ALL of the Clans not just one – for just destroying one Clan is both politically and tactically ridiculous.
This long term plan makes both politically and militarily sense. - Through the application of new vehicles with new training and discipline.
As for te re-write yes it would change the entire landscape of the Inner Sphere – can anyone say they like the story as at 3150? I for one think the overall story has become quite ludicrous – hence the need for a re-write to put it back onto something (anything) more interesting.
In 3025 yes Mechs were supposed to be rare and hard to come by – but post invasion this all changed – how many new lines and factories were established churning out how many new vehicles in what could only be considered as in prodigious numbers. So the entire state of the manufacturing / engineering throughout the Inner Sphere changed prior to and during and after the Clan Invasion as all areas of the military and civilian technology returned to that of the Star League Era.
It wasn’t until the Jihad and the use of Nukes and retargeting industries once more would the level of technology once more slipped back.
However with the forming of the Republic this loss would have soon reversed once more with the advent of new technology.
As for the Chaos with the fall of the HPGs research and development progression would now be on a world to world basis.
As for the use of Infantry and Inferno SRM / LRM rounds – they have always had their place within the game, even creative uses can be found for them
I for one believe the history needs to be fixed first then the rules to ensure the continuance of the game – as it is with the novels that the Battletech universe gains its greatest advertising / exposure to people who would then want to play (the electronic gamers stay with the electronic game only? Or do they hunt for new knowledge?)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/10/18 05:15 PM)
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ghostrider
09/10/18 05:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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Timing is the issue here. Immediate freeing of the worlds is what you extolled in one thread. No waiting, just do it. Now suggesting they wait until they have the units to do so?
Infantry inferno LRMs were always in the game? Since when?
Infantry LRMs came out much later in the game.
And you missed the point again. Remote tracking of normal srms was available in the first mechwarrior book. NORMAL SRMS could be changed in flight. The idea of having to spend so much more money on streak srms, when normal ones could do so is one of the rule holes that needs to be fixed before a rewrite. It means the tech was available when the 3025 timeline was just out and being played.
I for one believe the history needs to be fixed first then the rules to ensure the continuance of the game
So you want to have to rewrite it a second time, once you fix the rules? Why?
Fix them quickly, then worry about story line. It shouldn't be that hard to fix most of them.
Otherwise you go right back to needing to redo it.
To be honest, even the 4th war was screwing up the game. The merger of the FS and LC started the decline. And having most of the novels for the 3025 era, more then a few of them had some holes in it. But as stated by others a while back, the writers took advantage of some things and did things the way they wanted to.
Using the energy beam that powered the ship yards around Kathil, yet no one has ever done that before? It was just thought up during a capellan raid on the world during a coms blackout in the 4th war?
Game balance is used to make vehicles require things far beyond reality. ICE's double the weight of a fusion engine?
But needing shielding to use a fusion engine in a vehicle, and it dies on the first hit?
From the looks of it, any unit using a fusion engine, uses electric/magnetic motors on all the wheels to propel it. No one will confirm this, and some have tried to discourage the notion. Yet a single wheel can be destroyed and not affect the other ones?
And a positraction hub would be the answer most would give. But that doesn't make sense as all wheels are independent suspension, which would not work well with the posi.
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Requiem
09/10/18 06:34 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes timing is the issue …
First, the invasion itself is the opening arc of the story requiring – the initiating of guerrilla warfare and deep periphery warfare etc.
Second, once the Comstar and their ComGuard have a 15 year truce – this provides the Inner Sphere with 15 years in which to re-build and re-arm for the continuation of the Clans’ Invasion – whilst this is going on south of the Tukayyrid line other forces are still engaged in continuing with guerrilla warfare and deep periphery warfare etc.
Third, The Inner Spheres’ retaliatory strike upon ALL the Clans – driving them back into the deep periphery where they will establish a new front from which to launch new attacks from ….. etc.
No the 4th Succession War didn’t – what was the ultimate aim of the game? To become the First Lord – the 4th achieved this – however what fell over was the game developers and their writers’ creative ability to use this as a Launchpad into a new story arc to enhance the development of the game.
Again novels within bookshops and libraries creates interest and new players, whereas in comparison how many new players go into a game shop and walk out with B’tech?
Look at how many novels 40K puts out each month and in hard cover, two to three and B’tech two to three a year for down load only?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 01:28 AM
66.74.61.223
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Initiating? What did the pirates do that lived there?
Chew bubble gum and throw knives at pictures of the IS leaders? Well after they stole the gum.
They were basically involved in guerilla warfare when the IS sent out forces to remove them. They tried the same with the clans, though the clans took them by surprise and removed the pirates. That isn't that difficult if you think about it. Take control of all jumpships you find, and the pirates can't leave the system. Then a very good search. With the superior sensors, most would not be able to hide long from the clans.
How much rebuilding are you going to get done, when you have worlds above the line?
The FWL, SI, and CC don't have to worry during this time, but as the Falcons push in the LC area, the FC has to keep forces constantly going into that area to defend against the clans and try to take back worlds. The DC has the same issues. The FRR basically is a dead state at that point. The FWL only joined the fight during the Outreach meeting. They could have supplied the DC with items before that, or just them afterwards. And the threat of them hitting the weak backside of the FC is why they couldn't move large amounts of units.
To my knowledge, they were rebuilding as fast as they could. The implication of the story line was they were maxed out. Now if you see that as wrong, and they had sources that were overflowing with quantity, then that is your choice. Stop saying the writers/developers are wrong for using their numbers and figures.
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Requiem
09/11/18 05:09 PM
58.175.193.140
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I was under the belief most of the pirates had been scattered (displaced) or destroyed by the Clans.
Thus we have refugees who once belonged to one of the pirate families. They would want revenge would they not?
Thus they too would become either guerrilla forces or assist a House Troops in being their guide within the Deep Periphery in an attempt to hunt down Clan Supply depots.
An enemy of my enemy is my friend type of situation.
As for rebuilding would this not be required only upon worlds that the Clans Invaded and they hold?
Yes the main issue is taking back worlds – war is as much concept as conduct – so how does each House Lord go about doing this?
Individually their forces are inadequate for the job
Together under the Star League Banner they do have a chance
And this chance is increased if they use the 15 year truce to the fullest to rebuild existing units, build new units and rearm all units with as much advanced technology as can be manufactured within this time frame.
The closest example that should have been uses is the American Production of armaments during WW2 – where almost the entire industry was turned over to the production of armaments.
If this was done on an Inner Sphere wide level the question remains how much more prepared would the new SLDF be in combating the Clans than they were in the Cannon universe – each Great House would have what up to a dozen new special forces anti clan RCTs, together with a 80% - 100% use in advanced weapons technology for all of their existing units? Look at the FWL development of warships with the assistance of the WOB - what could have happened if this was done on a Inner Sphere Level - and also what could have happened to the number of commercial Jumpships if they had taken this route - Hundreds of new Jumpships and with a continual output that is increasing each year as multiple new ship-yards are established throughout the Inner Sphere - thus the game finally moves away from its beginning premise of being technologically backwards as a new reformation throughout the Inner Sphere begins.
Plus they now have the aim of ridding the Inner Sphere of all Clan forces (of those that do not defect to the Star League) which is the overall political aim of all the House Lords is it not? Thus achieving their aim of acquiring back all of their worlds pre Clan Invasion.
As stated previously just getting rid of one Clan only helps one Great House so why go down this track as no House Lord would ever contemplate this political decision unless they were to take on each Clan one at a time until all were gone.
From a pure political and militarily standpoint the writers/developers lost the plot in only going after one Clan and at such an early point of time!
As for the writers/developers figures – what figures they were just making it up as they went along with the story, so why can’t others do the same thing?
And as for asking them the question – how many questions are actually answered on the main forum? Not many / almost none? So why bother when questions were asked and never answered in the past?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 05:35 PM
66.74.61.223
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Well they were doing so before the clans, and did so after. And only those pirates that were in the invasion corridor got hit. There is alot more around the rest of the IS, including in the borders.
It is unlikely the clans would allow anyone associated with a newly conquered world to get out. They needed the surprise in order to hit the IS. Refugees would put that at risk, even if most did not believe them. That is if they even allow dezgra people to live. They should know who is pirates, and who is independent colonies.
Also no jumpships means no getting away.
And the initial statement of the early invasion/operation Serpent was to show a complete change of ideas in the forums.
Demanding action now in early invasion to wait some for operation Serpent.
There was an argument about not having the information to regain control of the worlds during the initial invasion. Might need to reread that stuff if forgotten.
Again. Trying to suggest this course of action by knowing the future, verse what was known during that time. WOB never told the IS they were going to help them. In fact, when WOB did get involved, they nuked alot of worlds. Far cry from this concept. And without knowing the future, you can not say they should have done this or that. Even Comstars working with the clans was against the IS. If not for finding out before they got much further, comstar would have basically helped the clans get to Terra.
During the story line, they did not know the goals of the clans, until they were directed to expand their operations by the periphery.
So knowing this before coming up with the scenario, that would mean comstar would never help the clans.
Or so goes the line of thought.
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Requiem
09/11/18 06:48 PM
58.175.193.140
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Creating a 100% blockade within a system is not as easy as it sounds, even with warships. Commercial Jump-ships within the jump-point together with Drop-ships within the system or even on the planet can escape. As per all the cannon military withdrawals.
As for attacking jump-ships if the Clans started this military policy would not the Inner Sphere follow suit and attack the Clans Jump-ships in retaliation?
Given the figures within all the Cannon books regarding the Clan invasion fleets they would soon become stranded within the Inner Sphere if this policy was adopted and prosecuted to the maximum.
What lack of information to regain Clan Held worlds? Black Boxes plus partisan forces equals actionable information. Just because of the writers/developers forgot about this does not mean it would have not been actionable. In a real setting all Front Line RCTs and Important worlds would have them, in addition a stockpile would have been kept on hand for just such an emergency. The argument that there were not utilized is hokum.
As for sending an early Operation Serpent does not make strategic sense at this time. The only thing it does is that of trying to make an unrealistic story a little more interesting. Bust what we got was a complete and utter disappointment in the overall outcome of this campaign.
In and Out very quickly with no souvenirs what so ever!
If a little more though was given to this story arc, rather than the rush job we got, this should have been a massive story arc on its own!
What we do know about WOB is that they were assisting the Free Worlds League were they not?
It does not matter if the Inner Sphere knew about the WOB’s military capabilities – what is important is the ability to maximise their combat efficiency and numbers within the sort time frame that is open to them, thus when counterattacking the Inner Sphere can crush the Clans at their own game.
The post knowledge that the WOB had these Shadow units is just icing on the cake! An increased TO&E to the SLDF.
As for Comstar helping the Clans to get Terra, erroneous statement, they were just playing along until they knew who and what they were dealing with they were always going to knife the Clans in the back when they had the chance to do so.
And once they did know we get Clans Vs. Com-Guard
Then post Operation Scorpion we get their reformation and their assistance within the Star League (prior to the great counter-offensive)
Plus the WOB always wanted to be a part of the Star League and with their Primus in Exile (Capt. General of the Free Worlds League) they were always expected to get this.
Once they are admitted would they not wish to legitimise themselves as the equal of Comstar thus throughout the Inner Sphere they assist the Other Great Houses Military projects.
The answer is YES as this is just a logical train of thought.
I am still under the belief that a re-write would produce a more robust Inner Sphere game ‘Universe’ than the current cannon mess we find ourselves within and also without the stupidity of reducing the size of forces available.
(Northwind – defended by two mechs (one a hatchetman) and a couple of agro mechs and infantry? At the bare minimum they could have given her a highlander – this age is without doubt the most idiotic next to the Jihad – completely lost the plot!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 10:44 PM
66.74.61.223
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The clans did attack jumpships, but not with normal weapons. Boarding parties were done. It is stated as such in few resources, as this was how they kept some information from being sent to the IS. Comstar blocked HPG messages.
Only a few escaped, and I seriously doubt pirates had the resources to have a jump ship waiting at a pirate point to evacuate their areas.
What lack of information to regain Clan Held worlds? Black Boxes plus partisan forces equals actionable information. Just because of the writers/developers forgot about this does not mean it would have not been actionable.
Again. Supposition that the black boxes were common in all areas, and that they had the units ready for such actions.
I could turn around and say the clans knew about them and had jammers that blocked the boxes from working. Not going to, as I don't know it.
It is also possible Comstar let the clans know about them. And they would have information on who may be the leaders of such cells and had them arrested immediately after, if not part of the targets for the clans to take out.
I don't doubt comstar had a huge compilation of IS agents. The shadow war would be a good start with that. New ones come in, but they would watch known training facilities. And that isn't saying someone didn't give up that information for a ton of c-bills.
So sending out a strike force to disrupt and possible destroy one of the clans, knowing they were not one nation for all, was not a good idea? They knew the clans would return home to regroup and rearm. And hitting them at home would not have sent the entire clans a message?
They moved as soon as they got the road map to the home worlds. Complete surprise was the goal, and a fast, powerful assault was needed, to avoid the clans from figuring out what was going on. Waiting would well have tipped off the clans to the attack, and allowed them to counter it. Say all of the clans warships in one jump location with orders to destroy anything coming in ring a bell?
Assisting the FWL, and helping the IS was not one and the same at that time. Not even the FWL knew what WOB had planned. The rebellions on the worlds WOB was using said it wasn't a good thing for the local populous. So why would it be good for the others?
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ghostrider
09/11/18 11:00 PM
66.74.61.223
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As for Comstar helping the Clans to get Terra, erroneous statement, they were just playing along until they knew who and what they were dealing with they were always going to knife the Clans in the back when they had the chance to do so.
Even Comstars working with the clans was against the IS. If not for finding out before they got much further, comstar would have basically helped the clans get to Terra.
Only when the Ilkhan said terra was their target, did comstar start working against them. If not for that simple talk, Comstar would never have found out what their plan was, and helped them get there. And Walterly was trying to use them to destroy the houses so she could be first lord, then deal with the weakened clans afterwards.
What is erroneous about that?
It does not matter if the Inner Sphere knew about the WOB’s military capabilities
You are saying they would have the WOB forces had they waited, yet they didn't know they had any. If that isn't contradictive, then the looking glass has distorted our world.
Then post Operation Scorpion we get their reformation and their assistance within the Star League (prior to the great counter-offensive)
You do know that Scorpions objective was to destroy all IS leaders, and take over? It failed as Walterly was killed. If not for the Kuritan spy, it would have destroyed the IS ability to do anything. So the writers avoided it by her death. It was just after this, WOB started their work to destroy comstar. How is a shadow war in ROM helping get the information needed to fight the clans a good thing?
And not once during the clan invasion time did I see WOB say then wanted to be star league. Even when Operation Serpent was going to the clan home worlds did this come out. So where is the logic in this?
It is taking the future, and saying all were fortune tellers and could see what would happen, and therefore follow ideas and numbers that didn't exist.
This may be a fantasy sci fi game, but it does not rely on fortune telling to run the nations. Well maybe Kali Liao.
No intel suggesting any of this would happen.
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Requiem
09/12/18 05:33 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, information and refugees of the Clan invasion were able to escape and inform the entire Inner Sphere before Comstar started its self-censorship program.
Second, this is an Alternative Universe discussion, so why again with the cannon?
Third, the ability for any refugees to escape the Clan invasion was due to how lucky they were in escaping the oncoming juggernaut.
Fourth, it was previously discussed that due to the interdiction and the shadow war between Federated Commonwealth Spies and that of ComStars Spies in all likelihood Hanse Davion would have initiated a plan to ensure both realms would never be caught out like that again. Thus Black Boxes would have been distributed upon a priority basis throughout their entire spy / military / worlds – to think otherwise is ludicrous.
Fifth, unless you know the frequency they are operating upon how can you block it, and this could be changed every 24 hours. As for the Clans would they not want to incept the message, decipher it, and gain actionable intelligence they could utilize rather than block it?
Sixth, Politics – believing just one clans removal for the Inner Sphere is NOT believable. As Stated before with my WW2 analogy. Why just recapture Italy and allow Germany to control the remainder of Europe – it MUST BE the removal of all.
Seventh, how can the Clan’s know the exodus road coordinates has been compromised if the Inner Sphere is not making any discernible moves in that direction? Would not their arrogance blind them to this possibility? Plus would not the security regarding the existence of the Exodus Road be on par with the D-Day invasion date? Thus surprise would have still been on their side no matter the date.
Eighth, With the re-formation of the Star League and the SLDF would there not be a command and control unit be created the same as in WW2 when Dwight D. Eisenhower was made supreme commander of Allied forces in Western Europe? Thus working towards a unified overall strategy is achievable by the SLDF.
Ninth, Any build-up of SLDF units would have been seen as a normal rearmament by the Inner Sphere as a direct response to the Clans Invasion and their enforced 15 year estoppel by the ComGuards.
Tenth, Even if the WOB only helped the FWL it does not matter for their assistance would have proved instrumental in establishing a large FWL Navy. Bu as this is an Alt Universe we can say that they would assist all SLDF as a whole, and provide their 13 Shadow Units with full membership to the new Star League.
Eleventh, using any rational it would be more effective long term to build up the SLDF forces and Navies and then just prior to the end of the 15 year truce initiate Operation Bulldog – then and only then with a successfully bulldog would Operation Serpent be allowed to proceed. To do otherwise is taking too much of a gamble as the SLDF may require these forces during Operation Bulldog when fighting against all those Inner Sphere Clans that do not defect to the Star League.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/12/18 04:55 PM
66.74.61.223
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It seems that all suggestions of what would or should have been done in canon is coming up, and not set up for an alt. It seems to be pointed at the writers being wrong for going with their ideas, and suggesting they were ill informed.
Maybe better wording would be in order.
Fifth, unless you know the frequency they are operating upon how can you block it, and this could be changed every 24 hours.
Where does it say anything about changing freqs? Supposition yet again?
If you could change them, then the receiver and all that deal with it would need to be changed as well. This is IF they can be changed.
Thus Black Boxes would have been distributed upon a priority basis throughout their entire spy / military / worlds – to think otherwise is ludicrous.
How many of these can be built in a month? Year? Who and where could they be done?
No mass production, as it could/would be traced, as well as some disappearing from cargo shipments. Even a 'pirate' attack could be blamed for them going missing. And distributing them would be an issue.
And we won't get into the issues of a planetary government using them. Might as well scream what you have.
Sixth, Politics – believing just one clans removal for the Inner Sphere is NOT believable. As Stated before with my WW2 analogy. Why just recapture Italy and allow Germany to control the remainder of Europe – it MUST BE the removal of all
As stated in another thread. Lack of understanding of the clans would mean things are that different from history. The Dragoons as well as contacts with others, would more then show that one clans destruction would be seen as a refusal, without suggesting the IS forces were out to destroy all of them. None of the others would get involved helping the Jaguars, as long as it was just them being hit. This has no real world examples to it. To hit all of them, would be seen as a try to destroy them all. That would cause ALL of them to strike.
This could be said of all other houses in the IS, so the first lord of the Star League would be useless. Destruction of all that oppose you.
Seventh, how can the Clan’s know the exodus road coordinates has been compromised if the Inner Sphere is not making any discernible moves in that direction? Would not their arrogance blind them to this possibility?
HPG messages being sent out saying they were under attack? You suggest refugees can escape when the clans take all jumpships at jump points, but the HPG doesn't work? They have them on each world for each clan. Hole in logic?
WOB did help the CC as well. But that is being over looked.
Also, you fail to grasp the fact the losing clans of the Tukyyid campaign are bound by the truce. The Jade Falcon command said straight up, they were not bound by it, but would abide by it.
So you trust their word? Wait for them to bring in more forces as well as other clans to invade, while the others were forced to sit by and watch them take Terra?
There would be challenges, but what good does that do if the came in from the Outworlds Alliance direction, or FWL?
You would be so foolish to think they would not be rebuilding, or even prepping other clans to invade? The raids above the line, as well as the Corsair attacks showed they were not going to sit by idly.
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Requiem
09/12/18 07:22 PM
58.175.193.140
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First and Third,
QUOTE, “HPG messages being sent out saying they were under attack? You suggest refugees can escape when the clans take all jumpships at jump points, but the HPG doesn't work? They have them on each world for each clan. Hole in logic?”
How vast is a jump point? (have a re-look at the discussion regarding nuclear mines at the jump point) There is no way anyone can secure the area of a jump point unless they have thousands (may-be even hundreds of thousands) of ships all within one jump point at the same time due to the vastness of a jump point.
Question, how does the HPG stop working during the pre-invasion wave one? As at this stage even ComStar does not know who these invaders are when it comes to pirate family refugees.
Fifth, yes this is a supposition that they can change frequencies but all the info. provided states they act like a fax machine – so are they just like an enigma box used in WW2 with an open frequency or something a little more advanced. Considering the level of technological sophistication that went into their creation I would believe that unless, due to the physics of the device restricting all HPG traffic to a narrow band width, there must be multiple frequencies.
As if there is only one frequency then would not all the HPG traffic become cluttered and unreadable throughout the inter-sphere as multiple HPGs within a single area of space attempt to communicate with each other all at the same time?
Sixth, No this would not mean all of them would strike!
All it would mean is that all of those within the Inner Sphere are continuing on with the initial invasion of 17 years ago and as per the original Bidding it is up to them to win.
The only thing that could bring all of them (The Home Clans) into the war is if you go to the Clan Home Worlds and attack one of the Clans that is not involved in the initial war.
Think of it like their rules of etiquette when involved in ‘Mech combat. One on One but when you attack a second you get a “Grand Melee”.
So by attacking a Clan that is not involved in the Initial War is the only way you get a Grand Melee War, you are declaring that all of the Clans can be involved in the War. But restricting it to those of the initial invasion, it is just an extension of the original thought process with the Smoke Jaguars “It is their problem as we have not been involved in the War”.
Seventh, What HPG messages? if Operation Serpent has not been dispatched upon the exodus road until AFTER the success of Operation Bulldog.
Twelfth, The Jade Falcons – they would continue with incursions into the Lyran half of the Federated Commonwealth as per Coventry. But the wolf is ever ready to exploit any weakness as are the new SLDF during this rearmament phase …. so SOP …. It would be expected that all the Clans at one time or another would fight the Inner Sphere above the line … as the Jade Falcon’s put it to ‘test the metal’ of their new recruits and to keep their Talons Sharp.
And would not the SLDF do the reverse by invading worlds within the Clan Occupation Zone and issuing challenges for planets at the same time – thus keeping them off balance at the same time whist guerrilla activities continue upon all Clan Held Worlds.
As for bringing in more forces we do have Fenrir (my Alt. Universe) Fighting in the Deep Periphery restricting these forces and diverting them to garrison their Supply Depos.
There is also the SLDF Refusal Battle (as per my previous Alt. History post) if they win – no more additional “Administrative” units within the Inner Sphere can also be considered.
As for other Cans being allowed an Invasion Corridor in the Inner Sphere, doubtful, as would not each Inner Sphere Clan Fight a Refusal Battle (War?) to ensure this never happens – as if there are more Clans this means their chance of becoming the iL-Clan is reduced – and this is not a situation that they (the Inner Sphere Clans) would allow.
So doubtful any new Clan would invade, though I do agree the Inner Sphere Clans would also be attempting to build up their forces one way or another.
If push comes to shove could this even start a Civil War with the Clans (Inner Sphere Clans Vs. Home World Clans) over their eligibility to being part of the Invasion? And if so would not the SLDF capitalise upon this war, striking when both Inner Sphere and Home World are at their most vulnerable?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/12/18 07:36 PM)
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ghostrider
09/12/18 11:24 PM
66.74.61.223
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How vast are jump points? Not as big when you have active combat ships patrolling the area, and on top of that, pirates did not have a constant stream of ships going in and out. Most were lucky to have more then one jumpship. And trying to coordinate a pick up? Yeah. Sure.
The HPG comment was about the IS heading into the periphery to attack the clan home worlds. IE hitting their bases along the way.
And thinking on this, the size of the IS fleet has pretty much the same issues as the original exodus with supplies, so waiting and gathering an even larger force would be a folly. Trying to get supplies caught up with the invasion forces going to the clan worlds mean sitting at jump points for weeks. Not a smart thing to do.
The HPG have a limited range. Otherwise, longer range on transmissions would be possible, which are limited to 50 light years. Also the description of the HPGs suggest they are point to point. Meaning you have to aim at the target. Part of why it is sooo difficult for the IS to take control of them and use them. The transmitters swing to different points regularly to transmit and receive.
The black boxes that were in use, never change frequencies, as shown with the attack on Luthien. The border boxes caught the transmission sent out and increased the speed to get it to the Outreach meeting. They said coding and shielding was being used to avoid issues if the combine got ahold of some of them. No where did they say they could change the freq. And the receiving end would need to as well, nullifying the entire network until ALL were changed.
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ghostrider
09/12/18 11:37 PM
66.74.61.223
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Sixth, No this would not mean all of them would strike!
Then why did the clans bother with agreeing to the invasion, as well as who would go? It was pushed thru when the Outbound Light was caught by the clans near their home worlds. The invasion was started to avoid the IS from invading their worlds. Why would you not hit an attacker with forces from all that stand to lose? They would not be after ONE clan at that point.
'The only thing that could bring all of them (The Home Clans) into the war is if you go to the Clan Home Worlds and attack one of the Clans that is not involved in the initial war.
Sixth, Politics – believing just one clans removal for the Inner Sphere is NOT believable. As Stated before with my WW2 analogy. Why just recapture Italy and allow Germany to control the remainder of Europe – it MUST BE the removal of all.
Contradiction in statements here. Might need to read what you type a little more carefully.
Seventh, What HPG messages? if Operation Serpent has not been dispatched upon the exodus road until AFTER the success of Operation Bulldog.
So you think that the forces in the IS would not send out a message saying the entire invasion corridor was under attack? A full 7 clans would not have sent anything, nor jumpships/warships leaving systems not sending out that information?
And the HPG statement was those worlds along the path to get there. They would send out information they were under assault.
And the Smoke Jaguars were hitting above the truce line as well. Which is why the attack was launched sooner. To stop the attacks, though the Falcons were not bound by Tukyyid. They were free to attack below the line.
The alt history stops when it is said the canon story line is said to be wrong or flawed. This is not alt, but bagging on the writers/developers. And I don't disagree with all of it. The issue is this is numbers being pushed into the canon that were not there. Then using that to say they should have done this or that.
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ghostrider
09/12/18 11:53 PM
66.74.61.223
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As for bringing in more forces we do have Fenrir (my Alt. Universe) Fighting in the Deep Periphery restricting these forces and diverting them to garrison their Supply Depos.
The numbers in the clan books was the invasion force, not all forces available to them. The PGC's would garrison those depots, which the frontline troops slammed your supply lines as well. The clans had the advantage of knowing where your supplies and factories are at, while you are searching for theirs, as each clan had their own lines. Hitting any one of them, would free them up to strike back. Thus, initiating the grand melee concept for defense of the home worlds.
Also, after Wolcott, the clans would never agree to not invade worlds again. Time limits would be placed on any challenges for those worlds. I would expect them to place additional conditions as well. Like not using those worlds to strike at other worlds. They might be slow to change, but they are not dead and stupid.
The clans already changed the initial bid for numbers in the IS when they activated the Steel Vipers and Nova Cats. Now that they failed in their time frame to take terra, would open up the other clans to start invasions on their own. The invasion clans would not weaken their forces to try and stop the others, but end up sending what they did have in a desperate race to Terra before the others could get involved. Becoming the Ilclan would mean they could order the other clans around. It would be worth losing your access to the home worlds to claim this prize. And even then, only stopping for supplies, as invading Terra is the only goal. This would be were clan Wolf's attention to supplies would give them the edge.
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Requiem
09/13/18 04:27 AM
58.175.193.140
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Consider reading the Wiki on Jump Points? Vast is an understatement.
As for the Black Box on Luthien – this is not evidence of a one frequency only Box it is just evidence that they knew the frequency on the day – A code book does comes along with the Box and can provide different codes and frequency of the day, so not a problem.
Sixth, There is no contradictions in statements – the same clans are being fought against as those that invaded so there is no basis for additional Clans being brought into the Counter offensive by the Inner Sphere.
Seventh, And as for a HPG message by Clan unit along their Exodus Road - what if they did another end run, bypassing the Clans exodus road altogether and devising one of their own?
No message – Surprise attack?
Thus no Clan message as none of their relay stations are being attacked and therefore a surprise attack once they reach the Clan Home Worlds.
As for the Jaguars attacking above the Line – the Jade Falcons were doing the same thing – all the Inner Sphere needs to do is ride out the attacks and counter attack with their existing forces whilst the new armies are being forged below the line … SOP … as discussed before. This is still not a valid enough reason to push the counter invasion forward to the year after the establishment of the Star League, the policy of building and defeating all the Inner Sphere Clans is still the best policy at this time by the Great Houses and Periphery States.
And no the Falcons were not free to hit below the line. They lost thus they are required to adhere to the terms. (Confusing it with the Grand Refusal by those Clans who did not participate and thereafter said because they did not participate they did not have to follow the rules of the outcome?)
Using Fenrir forces to hunt down Clan supply bases is a valid tactic – one that could provide the inner sphere with vast amounts or resources that were intended for the Clan Units. Striking at these forces would not in any way initiate a grand melee. And as stated previously most of the forces at these sites would be only enough to engage in a Trial - the Clans initially would not be suspecting an attack by Inner Sphere Forces. Plus it expands the Game into a more adventuress setting (something in my opinion the Cannon completely missed out on)
As for Steel Vipers and Nova Cats they were Reserve units to be allowed into the Invasion at the discretion of the Il-Khan. They were included in the original numbers – thus there is no change to the original Bid. Thus no new Clans are allowed into the Inner Sphere for a new Invasion Corridor.
Thus the Inner Sphere has a more robust and expansive military with more Omni’s and Warships et al by the time the 15 years nears completion – and with the introduction of the WOB into the Star League I am still convinced their shadow Units and their Technology will be integrated into the SLDF .
So this would now be, in my opinion, a more adventurous game than that originally conceived.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/13/18 03:53 PM
66.74.61.223
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Might need to reread the part that the border agents got ahold of the signal about Luthien. The fears that the combine would get a hold of one of the boxes was major. If you change freqs every day, that would not be the case. You would need to have the right frequency on when the signal gets to your position. So a message sent to the front lines would be received on different days. What good is that? You wouldn't send out a signal on different freqs, unless you had multiple units. You will miss messages because of the time differences.
And no. They would not have several boxes in one location. Even New Avalon wouldn't have more then maybe 2.
One statement says you must destroy all of them. The next is just the invading clans. There is a contradiction there.
Going outside of the exodus route would mean having all the data to do so with jumps. And that does nothing to remove forces in route on the road. It they had this data, then they would not have needed to get the road map. Just the destination location
This is still not a valid enough reason to push the counter invasion forward to the year after the establishment of the Star League
The League may not have lasted long after the initial agreement. And with the formation, all wanted to see results of the agreements. Hitting the clans before they could recover was the best choice. Then again, when was it supposed to go off? Only 2 houses had any sort of reason and the forces to even attempt this, and before the League reformed, were not helping each other. The refusal came from the leagues formation. So when was it scheduled for?
You can't push up something that doesn't exist.
And no the Falcons were not free to hit below the line. They lost thus they are required to adhere to the terms.
Best reread that. The Falcons took both objectives, with the wolves 1 win, 1 loss. In the books the Jade Falcons said they were not bound by the terms, but would follow it.
As for Steel Vipers and Nova Cats they were Reserve units to be allowed into the Invasion at the discretion of the Il-Khan. They were included in the original numbers – thus there is no change to the original Bid. Thus no new Clans are allowed into the Inner Sphere for a new Invasion Corridor.
So the vipers and nova cats did not get given worlds to help take out the FC/DC? The diamond sharks were not move to reserve status?
So only the initial 4 clans were ever in control of IS worlds?
They became active participants in the invasion. That means the bids were changed. And as per your argument, the PGCs were not part of the bid, so using them violated the bid. As pointed out, that isn't the truth, as the PGCs were allowed, but not to be used to take worlds.
If you need to change so much to make it more adventurous, then the imagination of the person running the campaign needs to improve. Simple raids, not the Fenrir crap, into the periphery could well have aided in the clans defeat at Tukiyyud. Or given one manufacturer the resources needed to build clan tech.
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Requiem
09/13/18 07:11 PM
58.175.193.140
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First, discussing frequencies not who owns what.
As per Operation Galahad if you have a single timepiece you can use this to either attack on a broad front at exactly the same time or switch a dial to change the frequency.
Second, Comprehension reading – go back and re-read where I state destroy them all. This is referring to all those Clans within the Inner Sphere who do not defect, so no contradiction.
Third, have a look at the Cannon map for Operation Serpent . With the roadmap all you need is a beginning and an end point. You do not have to follow it exactly.
Fourth, QUOTE: “The League may not have lasted long after the initial agreement”
Coalitions of different political and sometimes hostile forces have joined forces in the past to achieve joint political and military objectives – Have a look at the differences in the Allies during WW2 as an example.
Plus given time – they will learn to work together and this can only help the combined SLDF effectiveness whilst in combat.
As going too soon you cannot coordinate troops as effectively as they will still distrust each other.
This is why you have war games to build a trust and an effective / efficient fighting force - they need time to work out all the kinks when having fighting forces made up of different units from different Houses.
The re-formation of the Star League would have been formed soon after Tukayyid – as a political and military necessity or soon thereafter.
Battle of Tukayyid – Jade Falcon achieved a draw based upon briefly capturing Olalla and inflicting far greater losses than they took! – The battle in which Adin Pryde is killed in combat? or ....
The Great Refusal – 23 April 3060 – Jade Falcons Won against ComStar.
In which book and page does it state that they are not bound by the terms?
Re-read the Invasion Book?
Why have a ‘deep periphery zone’ if it is never used to its fullest?
Guerrilla tactics revolves around using what you have to achieve your goals, whilst at the same time taking weapons from the enemy (making friendly forces stronger whilst at the same time making the enemy weaker).
This is a valid strategy to achieve victory.
The use of which would have provided the game with an exciting new adventure akin to piracy on the high seas / wolf packs versus cargo fleets WW2.
If you do not like it that’s Ok with me, though, how many out there do like the idea and will introduce this into a future game?
In addition to the other strategies I have championed, these would have made the game more realistic and fun in comparison to a simple raid Cannon version of events.
What I am putting forward is an Alternate view that in my opinion will make for a more interesting and fun campaign of the Clan Invasion and the Inner Sphere’s response to said invasion.
This Story Arc should have been based upon WW2 premise. If it had then I believe the story would have been far more exciting and realistic than that of the cannon story in which you have to suspend belief multiple times and groan with absolute disbelief in one point (No goodies bag / souvenirs when returning from Clan Space!!!!!).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/13/18 10:50 PM
66.74.61.223
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First, discussing frequencies not who owns what.
As per Operation Galahad if you have a single timepiece you can use this to either attack on a broad front at exactly the same time or switch a dial to change the frequency
How does this solve the issue of a signal reaching out across the stars that isn't instantaneous, from reaching different places at different times? Changing freqs would mean you are more likely to miss the signal coming in, as you are not tuned to it.
And the DAVION border people picked up the message sent from Luthien, and fast tracked it to the meeting. The original signal would not reach there until a month later. Or so said in the story of them training on Outreach. Or did you miss that paragraph?
it MUST BE the removal of all.
Ok. Reread. So where does it say only the invasion clans?
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Requiem
09/14/18 03:30 AM
58.175.193.140
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Knowing the distance between the sender and receiver and the speed at which message is sent you can calculate the time form message sent and message received.
Thus, you know when to send the message so that the receiver will have their machine on to receive the message.
Thus increase in chance of message being received.
Simple mathematics really.
Did you ever think the message was transported from Luthien via JumpShip (via a Command Route) until it was close enough then send the message via Black Box at the final jump.
Or it could be the writers made a mistake regarding the mathematics / rules regarding the use of a Black Box.
Another writer’s ‘Oops’ moment.
Comprehension reading … reading the totality of a statement and coming to an understanding regarding that statement …
QUOTE “Sixth, Politics – believing just one clans removal from the Inner Sphere is NOT believable. As Stated before with my WW2 analogy. Why just recapture Italy and allow Germany to control the remainder of Europe – it MUST BE the removal of all”.
… just one Clans removal from the Inner Sphere is NOT believable ….. it MUST BE the removal of all.
So we are discussing planning the removal of all those Clans within the Inner Sphere and not taking a selective bite of information.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/14/18 11:32 AM
66.74.61.223
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From the context of the story, it sounds like they sent it from Luthien with a black box.
The point I was trying to make with the frequency changes is, that message would more then likely arrive at the border when the frequency was tuned elsewhere. Even just 4 frequencies puts it at a 75% chance of missing it.
There is nothing to suggest they had different frequencies, thought it is only implied they didn't.
Since you are talking faster then light transmissions, it would support a more limited frequency, or reliance on a carrier wave to move it.
To remove the threat of the clans, it would come to the logic all would have to be removed. The concept of you are with me, or against me comes to mind. Given the clanners thoughts of conquest, they would not be satisfied with not taking terra. The invasion would begin again, or do like the falcons did. Start taking other worlds, looking for fights.
And I haven't found the novel where Victor was talking to the grand council after destroying the Jaguars, where one of the Falcon khans said they were not bound by the truce. Victor said he could reform the task force in the IS and start dealing with the Falcons like they did the Jaguars. It was then, the Falcon Khan said they would honor the truce.
The book is buried in my garage.
And there are a lot of selective bites taken from the conversation. Some things seem to be common knowledge or taken for granted, and the point is lost or missed.
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Requiem
09/14/18 06:32 PM
58.175.193.140
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It could be that the Black Box contains a multiple frequency transmitter and a universal frequency receiver unit for all messages.
Yes I agree in the interim 15 years between the Invasion’s enforced estoppel and its resumption the Clans will begin battles again in the form of
• Clan Vs. Clan – Trials of Possession etc;
• Clan Vs. Inner Sphere – Conquest of worlds / Training new Sibko units (keeping the talons sharp) etc.
• Clan Vs. Insurgents – hunting partisans etc.;
The Book you are looking for is Price of Havoc (Twilight of the Clans VII) – Chapter 15 page 135 onwards – 25 April 3060 Hall of Khans Strana Mechty – This is the where Khan Vlad of the Wolves threated that after 7 years with the end of the Truce he would start an invasion toward Terra again and Victor threatened him back with reassembling his forces in the Free Rasalhague Republic and he can drive them from the Inner Sphere. So Wolves not Falcons.
Though would it not have been interesting to have a war where the Inner Sphere builds up its forces
• Removes those Clans who do not defect to the Star League from the Inner Sphere;
• Fights through the Deep periphery –then through Deep Space all the way to the Clan Home-worlds;
• Battle rages upon all of these worlds;
• Ending with the end of the Clans as they were – thus they become what they were supposed to be an Egalitarian Society etc or even the Clans retreat off world to become a nomadic tribe within Jumpships and warships
Fun had by all (except the remaining Clans!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/21/18 11:58 PM
66.74.61.223
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One thought came to mind about clan bondsmen. They do not have to accept, and some would suicide before becoming an IS lackey. They would consider this more of an honorable solution then fighting their trueborn brothers and sisters, with IS lords commanding them.
Thought about this when reading updated post on how the alt is supposed to go.
This would be more for warriors then non combat personnel. Not sure how much reliance on bondsman you are in mind.
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Requiem
09/22/18 03:09 AM
58.175.193.140
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If we look at Clans as a Cult (of which they are!), individuals that have been programmed can also be deprogrammed.
As discussed previously the Inner Sphere are utilizing Psy-Ops teams, one of their missions would be the deprogramming of former Clan personnel . Those who are considered at risk can be placed with a maximum security psychiatric hospital under heavy sedation until they can be deprogrammed or reprogrammed if that fails there are always other more drastic options.
I would therefore assume a percentage of trueborn will go through this procedure depending upon their Clan origin and their status (Scientist, labourer etc) – though as for Clan freeborn, their level of indoctrination would not be as severe – hence they, in all probability, could be indoctrinated into becoming part of the Inner Sphere.
Thus a majority of non-warrior / non-trueborn positions can be considered viable candidates …
eg. Professionals – engineers, medial, scientists etc
Non-professionals – labour for all professions etc.
This included those that work on / for their armaments - ‘Mechs, Fighters, Dropships, Jumpships, Warships etc.
These captured individuals could contribute to the welfare of the Inner Sphere throughout the 15 year truce period .
However – during this 15 year truce period how close will the Inner Spheres Academies come to a Clan Sibko’s training? Thus how many IS pilots gunnery / piloting will therefore be the same as a Clans Gunnery / piloting for a newly graduated pilot? Can we now assume the same? And once blooded?
Thus another good reason(s) to extend out the time period to near the end of the 15 years – how much former clan knowledge can be incorporated into the IS from these former Clan citizens?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/22/18 10:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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As discussed previously the complement of elemental forces within the invasion fleet, for any of the Clans, would not enable the majority of garrisons to be equipped with an adequate defensible security force.
Thus opening the majority of these garrisons to strikes by commando forces which could result in the subsequent capture of non-warrior support personnel, who were at the time assigned to these garrisons.
Utilization of Psy-Ops teams or even their own culture in utilizing ‘bondsman’ could also convince these personnel to agree to become part of the new Star League.
Or they could even have defected due the difference between the Clan’s Closed / sterilized and that of individuals life within one of the Houses’ more open / freedom societies.
With the integration of former Clan free-birth technicians and professionals into the Inner Sphere’s Star League and the few true-born warriors into the S.L.D.F. during the the short peace of 15 years one can only wonder how the Inner Sphere’s technology throughout all the industries could have been affected.
Increase understanding of how to …..
• Manufacture Clan weapons systems and omni-mech vehicles;
• Utilize sdvanced new engineering principles;
• Utilize advanced new medical principles;
All these and more could have been integrated throughout the Inner Sphere.
Plus with multiple war games the armies of each of the Great Houses could have learnt to work together against a common foe under the banner of the SLDF.
Plus new Inner Sphere RCTs / RACTs / pocket warships / warship fleets could have been established to rectify the imbalance between that of the Inner Sphere and that of the Clans.
Second generation Omni-mechs and omni-fighters could have been produced and entered into mass production.
Thus by the end of the short peace the Inner Sphere would have been in a more advantageous position to withstand / drive back any subsequent Clan Invasion from all the Inner Sphere Clans.
So why rush the invasion as per the Canon history? … as when you sit back and think about it rushing to destroy one single Clan or waiting, building, learning thereby allowing the SLDF to destroy all the Inner Sphere Clans (who do not change side) only works from the point of view of the writer / game developer in keeping a suitable number of combatants within the arena – it does not assist the House Lords ultimate political goal of removing all the Inner Sphere Clan forces and thereby returning their lost territory due to the Clan’s invasion.
As is the Canon version only helped the Draconis Combine and could the other houses really accept this as win for them? Would they not want their lost worlds also returned –in reality it should be a zero sum game – all or nothing!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/23/18 05:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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So why rush the invasion as per the Canon history?
Statements like this is why it sounds like bashing the writers.
Looking over what happens after the fact and coming up with ways it could have been done better, has been what armchair generals have been doing for years.
Not knowing the information at the time, is where some decisions come from.
One big thing that seems to be missed, is how do you assist your people behind clan lines, when you don't even know where they will be tomarrow? With the truce, this changes a little bit of it, but I did not see where it was said that if you attacked the clans in force, they would not nullify the truce and begin to advance again.
And the lack of knowledge of what forces they have, or have bid, much less if they were changed due to other factors comes into effect. You may well send in your fleets and elite soldiers, only to find out you are 3 jumps behind enemy lines, with no supplies what so ever.
Saying this or that should/shouldn't have happened with all the information after the fact does not change why things were done they way they were.
That is not saying there wasn't more then a few issue with it, but then I am not saying the way I want it to go is the only way it could/should have gone.
in keeping a suitable number of combatants within the arena – it does not assist the House Lords ultimate political goal of removing all the Inner Sphere Clan forces and thereby returning their lost territory due to the Clan’s invasion.
This part of the statement is part of the issue. The writers want to sell their product. If there is no wars or reasons to go to war, then you should just close up shop.
And as said before. The civil war aspect of what is normally left is not appealing to any of those I know that play the game. A simple bad roll could very well cause you to fight your own family, IE they joined up with the enemy. With having an outside threat, you remain pretty focused on them being the enemy, and not family or the government you like.
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Requiem
09/23/18 08:43 PM
58.175.193.140
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The decision to counter attack should be based upon pragmatism and politics – what is achievable – Given time what could be achievable would align with the goals / politics of each Great Houses requirements – the safety of the Inner Sphere by removal of the Inner Sphere Clans.
How can you live next to a state who believes that their only reason for living is that of proving themselves in war? You will never feel safe (The overall safety of the realm and the people who live in the realm) until they are relocated elsewhere.
Assisting partisan / commando forces – this is why they have access to Black Box Technology and pre-arranged drop points – have a look at WW2 French Partisan activities.
So, given the rebuilding has been competed, what does it matter if the truce is nullified if the time remaining is so short as to be considered negligible?
Again Partisan activities would have kept CIC notified as to any changes in garrison strength on a world by world basis.
Writing from the point of view of what the writers want in the future (more wars) is a most imbecilic strategy to keeping the Franchise viable. Establishing a positive, exciting and believable story with the minimum of errors is what will keep the Franchise viable, together with a minimum of bi-monthly novels and expansion packs (anything less than this and the Franchise can be considered to be circling the drain)
Civil war with the Clans – 1.The war of Reeving; 2. Clans do not have families (fostering) – it all comes down to how it is packaged, if it is done correctly a civil war will succeed – have a look at the American Civil War as an example of how a backstory could be included.
So how many additional RCTs and RACTs could each Great House create during the duration of 15 years of peace?
Could one RCT and RACT be established per year per each Great House?
Could these units be outfitted with predominately / all omni weapons technology?
Could their training be such that these new units will become the SLDF’s spear point for the coming counter assault –ie. special forces with anti-Clan training?
And how many new Jumpships, Pocket-warships, Warships, Aerospace Carries could be manufactured?
What I am suggesting therefore is the same as America and Russia during WW2 – whereby the entire industry of the Inner Sphere repurposed for armaments in one way or another to defeat the Inner Sphere Clans and with the possibility of striking a mortal blow to those that remained on the Clan Home worlds.
Does somewhere in the vicinity of 60 to 75 new RCTs and 60 to 75 new RACTs as well seem plausible total? (12 plus for each Great house and something less for the minor Houses)
And with WOB’s 13 + Shadow units as well? Who’s transformable ‘mechs become the advance recon element of the invading forces.
(How many would have preferred the alternative use of these forces in a war against the Clans rather than that of the madness the Jihad became – and all without WMDs?)
So creating House units that contain advanced WOB technology could be possible – who would be up for a campaign like this?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/23/18 09:33 PM
66.74.61.223
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First off, without knowing the end result, how could you say things would have gotten better for the IS? Because they reformed the league?
How do you know the attack on the Jaguars wasn't to prove the League was a real entity? That they had to do something, otherwise worlds and even complete regions may well have left. Only the fact you have the end result and working backwards.
Pragmatic? Removing one of the worse of the invading clans and stopping their forward motion isn't realistic or reasonable?
If not for the Saber Cat incidence at Turtle Bay, which clan should they have gone after? The FRR was basically destroyed. So the most to gain from this would be them. But do you take on the Wolves or the Bears? And with that, do you trust the Jaguars or Falcons to stay out of it?
Just because the Dragoons said they wouldn't aid each other, doesn't mean it was written in concrete and should have been believed by all. The fact they were from the clans would make it suspect.
Now being 2 or more jumps behind the 'front' lines with the clans, how do you think the IS would be able to keep supplying partisans and such? Why would you think there would not be an increased force on those worlds as they sent in units, like the IS did throughout their history, to end them? Then jump your supplies directly into the hands. Logic? Or working backwards from the end result and modifying things from there?
what does it matter if the truce is nullified if the time remaining is so short as to be considered negligible?
Would you trust someone that broke the truce, even if it was only days remaining? And without knowing what had happened, do you really think the clans weren't getting ready for renewal of combat? Maybe even broken the truce with invasions.
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ghostrider
09/23/18 09:47 PM
66.74.61.223
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Writing from the point of view of what the writers want in the future (more wars) is a most imbecilic strategy to keeping the Franchise viable
So a war game should not have wars?
They screwed up with the FC, and didn't fix it. The most logical thing for the 'story' would be cession of all wars with only border raids (pirate attacks) being left. Then the moronic repeat of civil wars. Where is that better?
Again. The lack of any free people around would not have shown the others there is something different. 250 years of each generation being born into the society as it was, tends to destroy the ideas of freedom. So really. How many people in the clans would believe an IS person? They would lie to you, in order to avoid becoming useful to the clans.
The American Civil War had nations around to help both sides in the fight. There were examples of both styles of government, and were not COMPLETELY separated from any outside contact with the masses. Only the few collecting data on the IS would have seen otherwise. Anyone found releasing that information would have been killed for violating the clans policies.
So how many additional RCTs and RACTs could each Great House create during the duration of 15 years of peace?
Supposition as there are no real hard numbers on how many units can be made, or people trained. And with the next statement, the clans could well be training to counter the IS as well. Given they were running about half the forces and still beating the hell out of the IS, once they dropped the one on one, it would have gone far worse for the IS.
whereby the entire industry of the Inner Sphere repurposed for armaments in one way or another
Why would they not be doing this to begin with, during the succession wars? Figure that into this statement and answer this on your own.
Again. No one knew WOB was doing anything besides fighting Comstar. And in that same vein, how did they know WOB was not going to start a war as their backs were turned. Oh yeah. Knowing the outcome of the time line, then changing facts in there to help move it away from canon.
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Requiem
09/23/18 11:59 PM
58.175.193.140
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Things would have gotten better …
1. We have a Star League with a central Authority – the former position of First Lord no longer exists – so why have a succession war? We now have a UN Security Council type of arrangement.
2. All parties are sharing information / conducting joint war games – the threat of war within the IS has been reduced as the Great Houses militaries have deescalated the threat of war by working together.
3. Increased Trade Relations – reduces the threat of war.
Prove the League was real to the Clans …. It would not matter what was done, crusader Clans would always view it as a shame. Wardens …. Well some of them did join ….
Pragmatism and Politics both combine here to achieve the overall goal of Inner Sphere Security with the removal of those Clans who are too obstinate to realize the reformation of the Star League has occurred.
What is the Inner Spheres ultimate goal when dealing with the clans is it to just stop the Inner Sphere invasion permanently? If so this can only be dome with their removal – nothing else would be considered acceptable.
Supplying Partisans is quite elementary – Pirate points and the use of non-standard jump points (Theodore in the war of 39 with the Ghost Regiments) there is no way the Clans could patrol all of these – it is estimated that for every one world on the map there should be about 1,000 other jump points close to this on. So not a problem, the Cans just do not have a sizeable military force to adequately garrison all the worlds adequately. In addition they are not trained for guerrilla warfare.
The 15 year truce – think about Chamberlain waiving his piece of paper and declaring peace in our time – the same goes for the Inner Sphere’s truce with the Clans.
It is in the Inner Spheres best interest to drag out the peace as long as possible so as to rebuild and rearm. As everyone known that one second after the end of the truce the Clans will attack – it is just in their nature to do so.
QUOTE: So a war game should not have wars?
Missing the point as to why societies go to war and how often they go to war. A cleaver writer knows how to write the situation so as to obtain a war.
Civil War is between - Inner Sphere, Dark Caste and Wardens versus Crusaders
Supposition,
How close wold the Inner Sphere Technology be to that of the Clans by the end of the 15 years – 60-80%. Thus their superiority in technology becomes severely reduced by the time of the counter attack.
The Clans only accept the 0.01% to become warriors from their population and the majority of these are true borrn. Thus the number of potential future warriors are already or have just been born and entered a Sibko training program for a war in 15 years time.
If increased numbers are required these warriors will not be available until about 17-18 years from the initial start of the truce.
Whereas the Inner Spheres Population can accommodate the numbers required to make 150 new RCTs / RACTs
Plus strategies in educating military personnel have improved to be on par with the Clans.
Plus the inner Spheres entire manufacturing capability wold be 100 to 200 times greater than that of the Clans – if this was totally transferred to armaments production how can the Clans attempt to keep up?
As for the Clans running only half of their units – they can only use those that are within the Inner Sphere – noting that has occurred to date has allowed the Clan Home World Clans to participate.
As for the Great Houses not utilizing their entire industry for armaments – this has only occurred due to times of extreme peril – like WW2; and now the Clan Invasion – it has become a time when the need has arisen due to scale of the threat – before it was just the Succession War but now it is a time of unparalleled danger due to the ferocity of the Clans and the technological difference between the two.
With the invasion of Terra and the changes made to the rearmament factories within the Free Worlds League’s the Inner Sphere (via their spies) would have an understanding as to what the WOB was up to and with their membership into the Star league it would be expected that they wold share some of their technology with that of the other members (Just like the FC shared the omni Firestarter with the DC ect.)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/24/18 03:47 AM
66.74.61.223
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The canon version has a first lord, which changes every so often.
Never heard of a single war games performed by the IS that was more then FS/LC. No League ones. So please put up the reference to one. It may well have been missed.
And I didn't hear much about trade relations, except the FWL supplying more weapons of war. But again. May have missed that information.
The clans knew the IS could not hold the League together. And they didn't. They also knew that the IS houses could not cooperate for very long as well. The long bloody history of the IS shows that.
And yet the fact that most of the population was not going to upset the clanners, as they punished people at random until those that were acting against them were brought forth. The Jaguars were killing people after someone bombed a restaraunt with some clanner in it. Not many are going to resist that, as the clanners were not known at that time.
Missing the point as to why societies go to war and how often they go to war. A cleaver writer knows how to write the situation so as to obtain a war.
Societies go to war for the same reasons. Greed. Those in power want something, and send out the troops to get it. Some cover it in other things, but as was said. One person's freedom fighter, is another persons terrorist.
The best cover is a good offense is the best defense. Hit them before they hit you.
The clans do accept freeborns into the military, and they could very well allow those that failed, a second chance. Even the solahma units could be sent to the front lines.
They probably wouldn't if the IS did not do the full assault on all the clans in the IS.
Again, failure to understand, you can NOT change all factories to military output. Revolts will happen very quickly, especially on worlds far behind the lines. Otherwise, there would never have been any civilian factories in the succession wars.
With the invasion of Terra and the changes made to the rearmament factories within the Free Worlds League’s the Inner Sphere (via their spies) would have an understanding as to what the WOB was up to and with their membership into the Star league it would be expected that they wold share some of their technology with that of the other members (Just like the FC shared the omni Firestarter with the DC ect.)
Gotta love this one. The IS spies in WOB would be able to tell the houses what WOB was up to, yet could not find the hidden worlds as well as even find out they had the hidden forces? The fact Comstar had mechs for ages, and the IS only found out about them during the 4th war.
So these spies are telepathic? Is the 'master' supposed to tell them what he has planned, and they believe him?
Given the history of the IS, the houses would more then likely believe WOB about to attack Comstar or the other houses. It was after all, a military coupe when they broke away, and took Terra. Why would you believe they were going to be helping?
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Requiem
09/24/18 05:04 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, this is an Alternate History
Therefore as discussed previously the Cannon idea of having a First Lord for the resurrected Star league has been discounted. In all likelihood a council of Lords (similar to the UN Security Council) would take place, where one member has one vote and majority rules.
Second, as for war games between the houses, yes the only one that has occurred is that of the FS and LC – this is the reason why new ones are required so that the majority of the units can coordinate (and this will take time to ensure a high degree of battlefield effectiveness).
Third, the FWL were supplying battlefield refit packages – with the assistance of the WOB.
As for the clans knowing the Star League would fall, sorry but this is not correct, as if it is why would the Bears and the Cats join?
As for retaliatory reprisals against civilians – are we back to Russia, Poland, France and Rome of WW2? And how did that work out? The resistance went on … the more you tighten your grip the more will hate and loathe the occupation … yes, some will collaborate but how many will fight back? Time to re-read about partisan activities within France and Vietnam?
Have a look at the TV series ‘The Expanse’ – this may provide ideas regarding the start of a war and how diplomacy is used.
Yes, Clans some of the Clans do accept free-born into their military, the question is how many?
The answer however is an incredibly small number – a number that would not affect the overall size of the military.
The Clans military size is dependent upon the size of their maturation chambers to produce sibkos – their training then reduces this number until only a few remain. Thus the overall size of any Clan is pretty much fixed to a pre-determined level. Any serious change to this will take an additional 20 to 25 years to have the flowthrough from birth to trial of position to have an effect upon the overall size of any Clan’s operating size. That is unless they accept more free-births into their units.
The Inner Sphere however can accept increased numbers into their academies to drastically increase the size of their military over a short 5 to 10 year program.
This difference in how individuals are selected and trained for the military will have a major effect upon the size of any future fighting force. That is the Inner Sphere can produce massive new units easily while the Clans are still ordering their scientists and technicians to make new canisters for their breeding program.
As for spies – they may be or may not be in the WOB. But you can bet they would be in the FWL citizens/ factories / government - reports are made, people talk – information is gathered.
As for the Hidden Worlds only the top echelon (and those who operated their Jump-ships) within the WOB knew about these – so an IS spy would have had to have been very lucky to find out about these.
Remember why the master made these shadow forces in the first place – if the WOB was given membership to the Star League – what would he have done – kept them secret or integrate them into the SLDF to destroy the Clans?
He still could have kept the hidden worlds secret – the Houses' spy networks would be looking for a hidden facility(s) upon a world within the FWL, where they would assume they are being manufactured. A carefully established double blind could even provide credence to this hypothesis, thus providing a level of security to the Hidden Worlds.
No the Great Houses would not believe WOB will attack ComStar – they are both now part of the Star League and the FWL would have provided assurances this would not happen at this time.
In the future after the Clans are dealt with then yes there could be a war between ComStar and WOB.
But during the short peace no – we hang separately or we hang together – all hands on deck to repel borders situation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/24/18 05:12 AM)
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ghostrider
09/24/18 12:04 PM
66.74.61.223
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The freeborns and even the failed trueborns would start showing up in the military in greater numbers when things started going badly for the clans. The fact they have warriors that could work, just didn't make the grade at the time would be able to swell their numbers.
The concept of the Star League failing is the arrogance of the clans. Only they could build a lasting League. Anything the IS did, would fail. Now there are exceptions to this, but not many.
The Inner Sphere however can accept increased numbers into their academies to drastically increase the size of their military over a short 5 to 10 year program.
Without a draft, the IS could well be at the maximum for those wanting to join as it is. And we know the training facilities were maxed out before the clans wiped out the Blackjack combat college. Otherwise, why would you need the training units on worlds? Aeropilots are the hardest to train. And just how many people want to be one? That may be an issue with the large fighter units.
As a side note, the DC was having issues with getting people to join the military. They had the equipment to let the soldiers use. That is why they went to the yakuza. For the personnel. Granted the comstar equipment helped.
The worlds the WOB run, were in insurrections. So with that, it would lead to most thinking WOB was a petty dictatorship, that oppresses all that don't fall in with their plans. That speaks louder then anything the leaders might say.
As this discussion is dealing with the initial invasion and beyond, the houses did believe WOB would continue their attacks on Comstar. Otherwise, they would never have started with the Terra invasion.
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Requiem
09/24/18 05:47 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: The freeborns and even the failed trueborns would start showing up in the military in greater numbers when things started going badly for the clans.
Sorry No, remember the end of battle upon Huntress when failed true-born were offered to increase the strength of the dwindling Jaguar forces? They were refused point blank –only those who had passed their trial of position would be considered acceptable warriors.
Thus for Clan militaries increasing their numbers by accepting failed warriors wold not ever occur as only warrior caste personnel are to be considered acceptable to fight for their Clan – all others are unworthy.
The concept that only the Clans can re-establish the Star League comes back to Warden Vs. Crusader philosophy – however, with the acceptance of even one Clan into the Star league this action legitimises the reformed Star League, they can rant all they like but it will not change the fact that one of their own sees this act as legitimate.
QUOTE: Without a draft, the IS could well be at the maximum for those wanting to join as it is.
Sorry No, what is the population of the inner sphere and how many apply for access to an academy each year? Say one in every thousand or even ten thousand are accepted could be a realistic figure – thus if you increase this figure even slightly this will swell the Inner Spheres military pilots of Mechs, Power Armour, Aerospace Pilots, Infantry, Armour, and Naval personnel over a short period of time.
What is discussed as ‘maxed out training facilities’ refers to the number of slots open to become a cadet – not the number of applying for a position within an academy.
Thus, if the number of slots per academy are increased you will get more cadets and the flowthrough of more robust military within ten years.
As for the Yakuza – this was back in 39 not in 52 onwards – as a side note the DC could not use DCMS for these new units as they would have become known to the FC very quickly. Only by utilizing pilots outside the DCMS could these units remain hidden for as long as they did.
It was not a question of available people it was about using people who are not on the radar of the FC spy network within the DC – as unproductive and criminal elements can easily hide within a vast society and are not readily visible unless you are actively looking for them.
WOB are dictators upon worlds within the FWL and Terran system?
Sorry no I don’t believe this, in the FWL during 3052 they are seen as a quasi religious order who are running the HPG grid and assisting with administrating upgrades to their military industrial complexes.
On Terra – maybe - they are restricting the amount of information provided but what about the day to day freedoms of the people?
But will this stop their ascension to the ranks of the Star League when the FWL nominate them for membership – I do not think so otherwise they would never have allowed the Capellans a seat if they were basing membership upon ethical concerns.
Since when have ethical concerns stopped a countries membership into an political organisation that’s primary mission is the peaceful unification of all?
The Terran invasion was due to the original ComsStar rift – and even if it did occur it still would not have stopped their membership into the Star League, politically the Great Houses would have just overlooked this as membership is more important at this time than that of who controls Terra.
It is just not in their interests , at this time, to unravel the Star League by humiliating the FWL when they put the WOB’s membership forward for a vote. The rest of the Inner Sphere still needs the FWL’s military industrial complexes and foundries to assist them with battlefield weapons packages, regiments of mechs, a large navy contingent etc.
In all reality anything short of an act of genocide by the WOB at this stage would not have stopped their membership into the Star League – the rest of the Leagues members need to keep the FWL agreeable to their requests even if it does mean allowing the WOB as a member to the League.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/24/18 07:50 PM)
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ghostrider
09/25/18 02:16 AM
66.74.61.223
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The Jaguars saying no to anything other then trueborns that pass their tests is one thing. Not all clans were as strict. Now I am not saying any failed warriors would be let in, but those that failed their test because they were defeated before taking down one mech might be retried. In the book where Phelan becomes a warrior, it said alot of failed warriors came about as they tried to take down multiple mechs at one time, and were defeated before they took down even one. This is not saying those the flushed out before they even got into a mech/fighter/armor would be accepted.
As for the academy. No where is it written that you have to attend an academy to be in the military for the IS. It is just those that do, tend to start off higher in command, as well as normally better skills.
as a side note the DC could not use DCMS for these new units as they would have become known to the FC very quickly.
Failure to understand honor? The ghost regiments could not be DCMS, as it would insult all the warriors in the military to have yakuza being branded as honorable warriors.
It looks like you forgot WHY Theodore brought them in. They could not bring in enough people to fill the gaps in their military. Granted, most had some training in mechs, so that was probably a big bonus reason.
The WOB issue were happening shortly after then went into the FWL. As this is what history the IS leaders had to go by at the time, that is why they would not believe them.
Since when have ethical concerns stopped a countries membership into an political organisation that’s primary mission is the peaceful unification of all?
The current UN does today. I will grant you, most of those are third world countries, that don't have much of what anyone wants, but it is still there.
The original invasion of Terra by WOB was greed. Those that wanted it, came up with a reason, that others followed. With that, and their history up until that point, it would have been prudent to tell the FWL that WOB needed to improve it's track record before being let into the League. Other then running the coms in the FWL and possibly CC, what else did they have to offer? The hidden forces?
They violently attack comstar during the time the clans were a serious threat. That looks more like destabilizing efforts to defeat the clans, not help that.
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Requiem
09/25/18 06:18 AM
58.175.193.140
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Can you provide book and page number as to where a Clan allowed a non-warrior caste access to a ‘Mech, Elemental Suit, Aerospace fighter etc. – as this goes completely against Kerensky’s rules.
As for the chance of a second trial of position to my knowledge this was only considered with regard to Aiden Pride (Jade Falcon) – a one off. Is there evidence this was allowed thereafter if the Khan of the Clan agreed to it? (Book, page number please)
Most Mech-warriors, Aerospace Pilots, Dropship Crew, Warship Crew were via an Academy.
Yes, there are ways around this – Hanse Davion’s Mech-warrior training experiment comes to mind.
However this does not exclude the fact that with regards to the two different methods used between the Inner Sphere and the Clans. The Inner Sphere has the more flexible method of increasing their numbers rapidly (5 to 10 years) to the extent they could easily add 75 plus new RCTs and 75 RACTs to their TO&E. Whereas the Clans would require 20 to 30 years to achieve the same results (this is also dependent upon the number that pass / survive their trial of position – a more onerous test than that the Inner Sphere have – written / practical exam only (ie. no one dies!))
Sorry to disagree but I stand by my original post – Theodore-Sama brought the Yakuza in to the fold and gave them Star League era mechs as a way to hide these new units. Yes, he could have used DCMS for this but this would have drawn the unwanted attention of MIIO etc.
Yes, regular DCMS Samurai view them with no respect whatsoever, however the point is mute Theodore has spoken, thus all arguments end. (that is unless the samurai who disagrees wants to leave the DCMS and become a Ronan or commit harakiri)
Politics is not about believing people it is about finding an effective solution to a problem.
Problem: Clan Invasion – An effective Counterattack.
Solution: Star League Defence Force – rebuilding existing forces with advanced tech.; establishing new forces with new onmi-tech etc.
How: A united Inner Sphere Front against the Clans (SLDF) – this must includes the FWL and by proxy the group they have requested to be part of Star League – WOB.
To have the FWL you have no choice but accept WOB it is a package deal – the SLDF needs the FWL and its foundries and Navy – and they need the FWL to be a part of the re-formed Star League, the remaining members have no choice but to accept the package deal to achieve victory of the Clans and call themselves the reformed Star League.
This is like WW2 – America, England, Russia – there was an incredible amount of animosity between the three major countries and the three leaders but they had to put up with each other in order to achieve victory over Germany.
QUOTE: The current UN does today
Seriously? Read United Nations Security Council Resolution 702 on Wiki.
I would like to answer this in full but it would in all probability contravene the politics rule.
As for WOB attacking ComStar during the 15 year truce or during the counter attack – I am not convinced this would occur (plus the SLDF can separate the two if necessary – one to the Falcon Zone and the other to the Jaguar Zone).
Though one of them (either ComStar or WOB) may allow the other too take the brunt of the battle with the Clans in order to preserve their units for the future war to come.
As after the counter attack war ends, when the Clans are removed from the Inner Sphere, in all likelihood I would believe it to be the other way around ComStar will look at attacking WOB to get Terra Back.
Thus if the WOB military is numerically depleted compared to ComStar this could be all the reason ComStar needs in order to reclaim Terra from WOB.
And WOB may know this, thus they would want ComStar to take the brunt of the battles in order to retain Terra.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/25/18 12:29 PM
66.74.61.223
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Any technician has access to them. Some would have to have some skills in piloting and shooting, otherwise some things could not be done correctly.
One specific one, was Kai Liao, and piloting an elemental suit that he was not trained to use. Interesting that he was better then some born to use them. He is not part of the clans, so not part of the warrior caste. He was a trained mechwarrior, so there is some leeway here.
Another example is the scientist castes people that the ruling class warriors did not know about. The ones that swelled the Falcons ranks.
Most Mech-warriors, Aerospace Pilots, Dropship Crew, Warship Crew were via an Academy.
If true, then that explains WHY the IS could not rebuild or increase their forces much or quickly.
Theodore-Sama brought the Yakuza in to the fold and gave them Star League era mechs as a way to hide these new units
The ghost regiments or the mechs? Because not all got League mechs, and more then a few made it into the DCMS at that time.
They could still have the FWL in the renewed League, but have kept the WOB from becoming a member. As they were already part of the FWL for on intents, allowing them their own seat would weaken the others votes, buy allowing the FWL another vote with the WOB.
Politics is not about believing people it is about finding an effective solution to a problem.
There is currently a president in office that cult of personality is why they are still there. He is basically destroying that countries ties to allies, and trying to bring them close to their 'enemy'.
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ghostrider
09/25/18 12:36 PM
66.74.61.223
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As for WOB attacking ComStar during the 15 year truce or during the counter attack – I am not convinced this would occur (plus the SLDF can separate the two if necessary – one to the Falcon Zone and the other to the Jaguar Zone).
How do you split this if WOB is the political enemy of Comstar? I really don't see WOB listening to anyone on who or where to hit, especially since you said they didn't have military forces when the split happened. Which is wrong, as they used their own forces to hit Terra.
So where you got the information that WOB did not have military forces during the split, it is wrong.
Now if you are talking near the end of the truce, then WOB may deal with one clan or the other, but there is an issue with that. Both FC and DC were not friendly to WOB when they first came out. I doubt they were willing to let them into their borders for a long while. Which is part of why I don't think they would be allowed into the League as their own entity.
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Requiem
09/25/18 05:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, Clan technicians have access to ‘Mechs, Elemental Suits and Aerospace Fighters, however, this is a far leap from utilizing them in combat with the support of their Clan’s Khan.
Book, page number – where and when did this occur please?
QUOTE: the scientist castes people that the ruling class warriors did not know about. The ones that swelled the Falcons ranks.
Can you please elaborate further.
QUOTE: …. then that explains WHY the IS could not rebuild or increase their forces much or quickly.
Sorry No, an academy education does not slow down the rebuilding process it has the opposite effect it increases the number of people that can be assigned – thus the rebuilding phase is actually reduced.
As for the Ghost Regiments and their ‘Mechs – both needed to be hidden initially – only after the war of 39 were these advanced machines dispersed into the DCMS. Otherwise the idea of having a hidden fighting force becomes mute – the FC’s mechwarriors would have been prepared for these former Star League ‘Mechs upon the battlefield.
The politics statement as given may contravene the politics rule - suggest removing it.
Even if WOB did not have / had a small remnant of former ComGuard personnel due to the division. By the time of their admittance into the Star League they did have an effective military – How else could they have captured Terra and held it from any counter attack by ComStar?
These two forces can be split easily by the orders they are given and the objectives they are assigned.
Both ComStar’s ComGuard and the WOB can be considered to be ‘a professional military force’, that are now a part of the overall SLDF.
Strategy sessions will take into consideration everyone’s considerations, however once orders are given must be obeyed.
The same issue must therefore be considered with regards to former Federated Suns and the Draconis Combine / Capellan (if they exist!) Units. There is animosity there as well.
This is why the issue of multiple war games between units of different Houses (etc.) is so important. They need to come to rely and have trust in each other, and respect each other’s strengths and discard any previous animosity they have towards each other.
Thus the need for time to ensure this is minimised (I doubt it will ever be fully removed).
The entire SLDF will be needed – it is not about who likes who, or who trusts who – it is about forming a hammer and anvil upon which the Clans will shatter.
As I have repeatedly stated before the WOB and FWL are a package deal you cannot have one without the other – No matter how much other Houses have an issue with the WOB they do not have a choice politically but to accept them into the Star League.
You cannot have a legitimate Star League that excludes the FWL.
The SLDF needs every unit and every piece of armament they can get from the FWL.
The Star League does not have a choice but to accept the WOB when the FWL nominates them for admittance!!!!!!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/25/18 05:42 PM)
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ghostrider
09/25/18 10:26 PM
66.74.61.223
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Sorry No, an academy education does not slow down the rebuilding process it has the opposite effect it increases the number of people that can be assigned – thus the rebuilding phase is actually reduced.
So you are saying that the limitations of the academies, does not hinder increasing the size of ones forces? Though only training there can be done for Aeropilots, fighter/jumpship/dropship pilots and crew, yet this does not slow down how many graduate each year?
Even with Theodore, which was not coordinator but Kenrie, could not convince the DCMS, much less coordinator Takashi to allow advanced mechs to only be in the hands of criminals. Don't care how you want to spin it, that is not going to happen. To suggest otherwise, means you don't understand how the combine works.
WOB had forces to take Terra, and that was done before the League was reformed. The fact the Prime Martial did not even attempt to take Terra back, as his focus was on the clans is part of the reason they held Terra.
however once orders are given must be obeyed.
This statement is funny in a way. The entire Ronin war in the FRR contradicts this. Those units died, but they did not follow orders. As did more then a few that fled the clans and other fights. There are alot of examples in the IS of units not obeying orders.
The entire SLDF will be needed – it is not about who likes who, or who trusts who – it is about forming a hammer and anvil upon which the Clans will shatter.
Still suggesting that WOB had to have their own votes and such? They could be like one of the marches in the FC or districts in the DC. Even the territories of the FWL. There is no reason to give them that much power. And to use your own defense. It would make yet another rival to the First Lord position.
Let's see. In your alt, the CC doesn't exist anymore. So the FC/DC would hold the majority vote on that, so no. WOB would not be allowed as their own entity. We know Comstar would definitely say no. The St. Ives compact and FRR would vote against it as well, because they need the support of the FC/DC. WOB could still be in the league, but not as a voting member, or separate entity as suggested.
One last thing. According to your numbers, the FC/DC had more then enough units to destroy the clans. The tech wasn't there, but they could have done it. The issue would have been the FWL not invading the FC. With canon the CC would be the bigger threat. You suggested they did not suffer the 3039 wars losses, and had the ships to perform this just after the truce started. So over 200 regiments, including some RCTs would be sent against the clans. Even splitting them up to 10 per world until they retook them, would be more then enough to wipe out the clans in the IS.
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Requiem
09/26/18 02:07 AM
58.175.193.140
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Academy training includes education for mech-warriors; aerospace pilots; drop-ship crew; and warship crews, they will also train the officer class for all the other branches and in all probability all specialized technicians.
Then there are the boot camps for regular infantry, tank crews and all the support elements.
From there the elite are transferred to Specialized training facilities – Special Forces / Commando training / Power Armour Training etc.
Unfortunately I cannot see any limitations as to an academy trained . The numbers however will be far in excess of anything the Clans could achieve.
So I still affirm within 5-10 years it is quite conceivable the Inner Sphere could graduate an additional 75 plus RCTs and 75 plus RACTs whereas for the clans this will take a considerably longer time frame of anywhere between 25 to up to 40 plus years (depending upon the numbers who survive their trial of position each year) to graduate the same amount of the Inner Sphere is able to do in this 5 to 10 years.
The Clan’s sibko education system is not geared for mass graduates it is geared to only accepting a very small number from each sibko unit (if that) into their military.
As for units that do not obey orders – have the WOB forces ever disobeyed an order? – no they haven’t, so why do you think they would during the Counter offensive against the Inner Sphere Clan forces?
Remember THERE IS NO FIRST LORD POSITION of the Inner Sphere – there is a delegation of members based upon democracy.
As stated before to have the FWL as a Star League member, so too must the WOB also be a member.
Sorry no the FC / DC do not hold the votes …. Membership would include …
Federated Commonwealth
Draconis Combine
Free Rasalhague Republic
Free Worlds League
ComStar
Word of Blake
Duchy of Andurien / Magistracy of Canopus
St Ives Compact
Each of which would have 1 vote.
The politics of the situation does not change – the WOB will become a member with votes from DC, FWL, DofA / MofC, St.IC and FC versus CS and possibly the FRR
No, I said at the end of the 15 years truce the SLDF will have enough forces to destroy / remove from the IS those Clans who do not join the Star league.
During the Clan Invasion – due to the destruction of the CC in 39/40 – the amalgamation of their realms, military industry complex and Jumpships into the FC the Jade Falcons and the Wolves advance within the Inner Sphere would not have been as far as the original Canon proclaimed, in addition their losses would have been more pronounced than that of the original figures.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/26/18 12:45 PM
66.74.61.223
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On the vote count, I see 5 against, 2 for. The FRR and SIC would vote as the FC/DC would, and Comstar we know would be against them. The FWL would voter for, and WOB has no vote. The DoA/MoC is more likely to be the second vote for.
So unless you are rewriting the house histories as well, it is not logical WOB would be allowed without some major gifts to the others.
Why you think the DC/FC would vote for WOB is interesting. The DC did not allow the WOB to operate in their territory when they went raided the one city. The FC would have seen the attack on Terra, as a means to distract Comstar, making it less likely Comstar would assist in holding back the clans as well as regaining their worlds. If no for Fohst, Comstar would have wasted troops trying to retake Terra. That would have screwed up the entire defense.
During the Clan Invasion – due to the destruction of the CC in 39/40 – the amalgamation of their realms, military industry complex and Jumpships into the FC the Jade Falcons and the Wolves advance within the Inner Sphere would not have been as far as the original Canon proclaimed, in addition their losses would have been more pronounced than that of the original figures.
Have you forgotten what you posted about this time frame? The FC/DC would not have gotten into their skirmish, nor would the Skye Rebellion have taken place. So all those troops lost or stuck on garrison duty would not be excluded from going after the clans. So there would have been a major change in the invasion from the sheer number of troops both could move against them. Not even counting the military production that may have come from the CC. The fact the troop counts would not be just over half before the war, compared to the clan invasion would have shut down alot of that history. The CC, without using nukes and other WMD, would have been overwhelmed, if the jumpship count was as high as you wanted it to. Dropping 3 or 4 RCTs on each battalion, could have been done. Granted, that would mean only a few worlds at a time could be invaded, so more then likely about 2 per would be right. Less losses for the FC.
You did say your alt wasn't hobbled like the canon version.
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Requiem
09/26/18 04:20 PM
58.175.193.140
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The vote would be five for the WOB’s admittance and possibly two against their admittance.
The WOB do not need to provide gifts, the vote is purely political and is based upon placating the FWL. Therefore, in an attempt to maintain the fragile reformed Star League both the FC and the DC would vote for their admittance.
The issue of who controls Terra is irrelevant as long as the supply of war materials remains constant.
As for Anastasius Focht, he has his eye on the larger prize – the removal of the Clans from the Inner Sphere – this is the reason why he did not attack the WOB to regain Terra. With the removal of the Clans from the Inner Sphere (The Inner Sphere is Safe once more) then and only then would he turn his attention to the WOB and Terra.
Thus the defence of the Inner Sphere is retained during the counterattack upon the clans.
As for the change in target for the war of 39 from DC to CC, by not having the Cannon war or 39 this changes the depletion numbers not only within the FC but also that of the DC military considerably – as shown previously to attack the DC required 75 RCTs whereas attacking the CC required only 30-40 RCTs – thus less damage was inflicted to the FC military and this has the follow-through of having more during the Clan Invasion (plus the FC picked up multiple mercenary contracts who stood down during the CC invasion).
It also has the same effect upon the DC forces – their numbers that were lost during the 39 war are now nil. Thus they also have a more robust military to repel the Clan Invaders as well.
And by the time of the Clan invasion ten years after the fall of the CC ….
Sorry, but leaving troops upon garrison worlds whilst the Clan Invasion is progressing does not make sense. The FC now has additional forces (not only from former CC units but also from retooling and increasing the production of weapon systems) and the ability to transport them rapidly to the Clan front line (with the addition of the former CC merchant navy).
Why would Hanse Davion just leave them in place whilst this invasion from beyond the periphery is raging? Remember he is the most lethal general and statesman the Inner Sphere has seen in hundreds of years. It is just illogical to consider that he would not respond to this threat in the most lethal way possible.
Hobbling? No, by going down the path of annexing the CC both the FC and the DC military is in a better position to restrict Clan aggression due to their increased numbers of RCTs in comparison to that if they were damaged if you go down the Canon war of 39.
Quite logical …. and in all probability closer to the mark of reality than that of the Cannon history.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/26/18 11:56 PM
66.74.61.223
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Sorry, but leaving troops upon garrison worlds whilst the Clan Invasion is progressing does not make sense.
Do you actually play the game? Why do you defend worlds during an invasion? Even worlds on the far side of your nation need to be defended against other houses, and don't even try to suggest there will not be unit commanders that wouldn't violate a cease fire if they thought the worlds they sought were undefended. And this isn't including pirates and such.
Also, you would have to have units on worlds that have just tried to rebel.
But the statement leading to this, is not having to keep certain units in garrison mode, as you could use some of those that were not destroyed from the war that did not happen in the alt.
So you are rewriting the house histories as well. Hanse was a statesman as well as well versed in war. There were more the a few things he did not push forward in raids that could well have netted him worlds and destroyed the enemy's units. It would have cost him some as well. The Galtor campaign being one. He did not try to destroy the combine troops sent there after the supply lines were reopened. Same could be said with the St. Ives Compact. It would have been easier to him to absorb it like he did Tikinov. And that runs counter to the destroy all for the sake of the First Lord position.
Quite logical …. and in all probability closer to the mark of reality than that of the Cannon history.
Not really. If you were running the nation, you would have lost far more then what the canon did. Sending out your forces without knowing who or what you faced, trying to rely on things that may or may not have been in place. And ended up handing the clans the IS, as your forces pulled off other borders would have had to turn around and retake those worlds, or face further invasions by those other houses.
And that statement is another attempt to say canon is wrong. Again. It is the developers game. They say the sun supernovas and destroys the entire IS, then that is what happens. Trying to suggest your version is the best, keeps people from taking your alt seriously.
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Requiem
09/27/18 05:20 AM
58.175.193.140
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In looking for the negative all the time realization comes in knowing that this is all that is known
We have been through this discussion before (many times) regarding unit disbursement during the Clan invasion …. With an agreement as to to the greater enemy and the introduction of a united Star League and a multi-faceted SLDF House units can be effectively moved around without any undue concern.
So, suffice it to say yes more units will be transferred from other garrisons to fight the greater threat of the Clans invasion – despite all the worrying about all the minor issues (they can be ignored for now and fixed later).
Question:- during the Canon story both FC and DC pulled units off their borders with other Houses. Did these other Houses?
a. Exploit the situation and attack their rival houses whilst they were off fighting the Clans.
b. Launch an all-out assault.
c. Do nothing
d. Exploit the situation for an economic gain only
Your answer is? ……….
So why change the answer just because of a preference for uber-clans rather than uber-FC and all things Cannon?
Errr … Hanse Davion is a statesman and a master tactician both on and off the battlefield.
As for Galtor he did what was necessary to win to go any further would have ended in a pyric victory.
As for St. Ives, they were a useful knife in the side of the Capellans – one that he could exploit at a later date.
In understanding the many possibilities it is quite easy to appreciate the devious nature of his intellect.
And no you do not have to destroy all to become First Lord – this is why unions are so important … “FS plus LC equals FC”
Did you ever think he may have wanted a St. Ives Liao to marry a second or third child of his – thus with the annexation of the CC you then have a legitimate ruler by blood and name ( …… with the Family name now becoming Steiner-Davion-Liao) – as a possible future plan to control the annexed Capellan region of space.
Making comparisons between the Canon and my strategy and coming to the conclusion that my strategy would incur greater losses is quite erroneous.
Please re-read my strategies as well as the requested technological developments that I requested in comparison to those that Canon just ignored and it is quite evident that my strategy would inflict greater overall collateral damage than that of the Canon (plus it is more fun for the players as an enlarged campaign than that of the original Cannon story).
Again it is NOT the developers game, it everyone’s game – each of us has the right to tweak the games story to fit our narrative and to find new paths so that it can be more enjoyable to us as individuals and Groups.
Again and Again if you want to run my suggested Alt game good for you … if you want to stay with the cannon then also good for you …. Each of us should have the freedom to explore the universe and just have fun in our own way.
Frankly, I do not care if I’m not taken seriously .. just keep an open mind and if you believe this alt history wold be fun to run then just give a go.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/14/19 02:29 AM
58.175.193.140
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The Plan – Capture – Colonize – re-educate and convert into clan citizens.
When invading the Inner Sphere from Clan Space the invasion plans would have called not only for an invasion by the Clan’s military it also would have also necessitated the clan’s civilians to also be utilized during the invasion.
By assuming the control over any captured Inner Sphere planet’s civilian government, provide security for Clan Warriors and to provide an example for what was expected of their new Clan civilians.
Otherwise how could they have assumed control over planets that had populations in the millions or even higher.
Fear alone does not work!
Thus when invading the Inner Sphere the entirety of each invading clan’s civilian population would also have been transported into the deep periphery prior to the invasion and with each planet acquired a percentage of the clans population would then be transposed onto each newly acquired world.
Though the question then must be asked as to who is colonizing who – the Clans repressed civilian culture Vs. the Inner Sphere’s more liberal culture of the Steiner’s or the rigid class of the Japanese Kurita would in all likelihood end up converting the Clan’s citizens to that of an Inner Sphere culture.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/15/19 11:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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It seems the basic thoughts of the clanners is forgotten. They really had no concept of anyone refusing the perfectly correct ways of the clans. Well most in power anyways. For them, the clan ruler is supreme commander of all, and you did as you were told. Honor and discipline made sure of that.
Along with this, they believed the IS civilians were just waiting for someone to remove the leaders of the IS houses.
Only a few realized that was not the case, and a few went to extremes and started killing their own civilians as they started rebelling against them.
Bringing in the civilians would go against most clans ideas, as it would remove the ability to bring in war supplies, even though most thought the 15 waves would be enough to destroy the IS.
Most never dreamed the IS would provide any resistance, and the fact comstar was able to stop them with the proxy fight, destroyed alot of their beliefs that they were invincible.
The idea of the Japanese civilians would covet being part of the clans would be true if they were all fanatical about the system. But that is far from the case in the 3000's. Even Theodore wasn't the model leader along those lines. The warlords running the districts being varied, but some being almost completely against them being loyal to Lutien, while expecting all those under them to be faithful zealots to their rule.
And that didn't exclude the occupied, or taken worlds. Even their own civilians revolted from time to time. Not something that follows in the footsteps of extreme loyalty.
The military would be destroyed if they did. Suicide is expected from those that fail the lord of the lands. Any lost territory would prompt those involved to repent for their failure.
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Requiem
03/16/19 05:06 AM
58.175.193.140
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And this is why the original invasion story is a joke ……
The clan’s gathered Inner Sphere intelligence was completely in error …. they proceeded in capturing planets, leaving an under-strength garrison that in no way could secure a planet in the millions and in no way could even protect their own garrison from a commando raid …..
What if (as per an Alternate story line) they all had the bear’s civilian transports, and it was agreed that for those Clans that that won the right to participate in the invasion would take the majority (95%+) of their civilian dependents with them to re-colonize the inner sphere ….
– as how do you expect the warrior class and their technicians to re-educate an entire Inner Sphere world to their better way of life?
– whist at the same time protecting their warriors encampments
– providing all the services necessary to keep the war progressing (ammunition, Clan Hospitals within the IS, food, and over time ‘Mech/aerospace/elemental production facilities are established and are made operational etc).
– Having a Clan police force would be seen as reducing the chance of a civilian insurrection.
- transferring sibko’s to the IS thus producing replacement personnel quickly and having them transferred to the front with all due alacrity.
Isn’t it a little possible that this makes for a more logical invasion strategy than the one that was provided to us as cannon?
By having clan civilians within the Inner Sphere at the same time as the Invasion army it solves many of the issues that have been demonstrated to as an error within the original story.
- long supply lines;
- sibko replacement personnel and the time taken to transfer them to the front line;
- garrison security;
- world re-education and conformity to clan principles;
- re-supply issues from ammunition to ‘Mechs etc;
As it has been shown that each wold could only have approximately 15 Mechs / 10-15 elementals / 2-5 aerospace fighters as a garrison force otherwise over time their forces would be severely depleted by where they finally ended the invasion
Plus it does provide for each clan the opportunity to produce more living space for their dependents and what about transferring consumables / food etc back to Clan Space as I doubt they were able to take enough seeds for all varieties of food during the exodus – so now is the chance to fix this situation – Clan civilians can send back many new varieties of food and livestock thus improving the welfare of civilians upon the clan home worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/16/19 03:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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It may make more sense, for the alt.
But here are some things to consider.
As you are changing the basic ways the clans do things, I can see it backfiring dramatically.
If the freeborns and even trueborn families were out from under pure military rule, what is to say they don't follow the IS ways and revolt against the military? Encourage or even engage in the commando raids as well as give out the secrets to hitting the warriors easier and less likely to be punished?
Also, removing their base population causes issues with other clans moving into their territory under the pretense of making sure the bandit caste, or even civilians don't get the idea they are free to do so. Even seizing factories and such, could very well cripple the invading clans. The idea of destroy a hated foe, as well as showing the rest, they were the wrong clans to send would be a strong basis for doing so.
I seriously doubt the sibko issue would be moved from the home worlds. The genetic materials would be too much at risk in the IS, as well as the space would be needed for military equipment.
Building factories in the IS may be risky as well. Losing the world to the IS would give the houses access to clan technology at it's source. Not just the finished product but the ways to make it. Some tech could be done thru research, but the lighter missile launchers? That is definitely something the IS would love to learn. The compact things like XL engines and even heat sinks could change alot of how the war would go.
The issue with security forces comes from not knowing just how much the clans had in reserve. It may well be, they had more then enough to cover the security, but that would go against the prevention of waste. Why have hundreds of PGC's when the only threat was other clans?
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Requiem
03/16/19 11:53 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, clan civilians may revolt against their overlords …. However, could clan warriors even contemplate such an action by their helots?
In my opinion they are too blinked to even contemplate that such an action could occur.
There could have even been an agreement between the Clans …. that whilst away “upon the crusade” their landholdings would have been secure within clan realms and to attack whilst away would be considered a breach of their honour.
As for the genetic materials …. Yes they would never leave clan space … but the children within their sibkos are another matter entirely. Placing a sibko school within the Inner Sphere can be considered a possibility.
As for building factories … these could have been built within the deep periphery or within the Inner Sphere as the Clans are still quite blinkered as to the ability of the Inner Sphere forces …. In all reality isn’t it more believable that the clans consider themselves quite invulnerable to an attack by the forces of the Inner Sphere thus any factory they establish will be quite secure against capture?
Thus why not build factory complexes that could keep the “crusade” moving forward and a faster pace? as is this not the goal - the race to Terra - First Place is "Il-Clan" and any advantage that could be obtained to ensure this is a good thing?
As for security forces – the number of military units that were allowed was a fixed amount (that is until they cheated by saying they could have other non-front line forces) …. However police forces are civilian (non-military) and as such do not come under any of the amount each clan determined to invade with … thus they could secure their bases as well as securing the indigenous population of each world captured.
By adopting this idea it opens the clan space to the commerce of the Inner Spheres goods
It also allows for a more comprehensive invasion story …. Not only can you discuss the issues of the warriors upon the front line but you can also now discuss the civilians and how they adapt to their new neighbours.
Partisan forces could now include not only those from the Inner Sphere but also those from the Clans civilians – you could speed up the scientific revolt - have it occur not only upon he clan worlds but also within the Inner Sphere
The Reaving War – could be Clans against their civilians – with the new SLDF attempting to assist them and guard them against the warriors of the Clans (similar to the UN Peace Keepers?)
This could make for a unique Alternate History for those who like to conduct their war games within …
For me this does make for a unique new setting to consider the future from …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/17/19 06:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans thought everything in the IS was so inferior, that to even attempt to use it was beyond wasteful.
In the alt, it could well be the clan leaders would allow their civilians to get out from under their rule by moving them into the IS.
And that would also make the idea of being immune to the normal trials of possession that happens in the clan home worlds.
This could also allow the leaders to consider wasting materials by building factories outside of clan space.
The waste of moving the sikcos closer could also be done in an alt environment as well.
This does change the basic training of the clans leaders. Which would require a far more extensive change in their history.
The 'cheating' of using pgc's to garrison worlds was planned for already. They are never bid in, but are used when the prize is taken. There isn't anything in the bid about how much supplies you are going to use, or even limiting the direction you will come from. Even changing mechs in the units that will participate has been done. Vlad using a Timberwolf when they took Phelan is a good example of that.
The issue that seems to be forming is hobbling the clan forces, as the writers did with the IS forces for the invasion.
The issue with the SLDF defending the civvies in the Reaving War is distance and time. But with the changes already being made in the history, the Reaving War would not have come about. The SLDF would slowly neuter the clan warriors ways of doing things, so taking warriors from other clans would not be likely. Either all would rise up against the SLDF or a civil war would come about, with the hard core clanners against their bretheren as well as the SLDF. Much like crusaders against wardens, more then falcons against other crusader clans.
As a side note, it is likely the clan leaders knew the civvies would revolt if they got away from the military, as the Dark Caste would be the example. But again. This would be different from clan to clan, such as the invasion garrisons were.
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Requiem
03/17/19 10:11 PM
1.158.130.13
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Thanks ghostrider for the great read …. Very much appreciated.
For an RPG game this would add a new dimension to the game that many (I believe) would find interesting.
The gradual change of the Clan civilians would also be interesting
Some would come to desire an Inner Sphere way of life;
Some would cling to the clan way of life (hating everything to do with the Inner Sphere); and
Some would just go with the flow (as it were).
Yes, I agree when designing this new Alt Universe I must be very careful not to hobble the Clans or the IS forces.
Though I would find it very interesting to consider how the Jade Falcon’s civilians would react to the Lyrans and the Smoke Kitties to the Kuritan’s way of life.
Culture shock by all concerned, initially, followed by a growing admiration and respect … maybe / maybe not?
and the spies on both sides would have a difficult time of blending in ….. which could even lead to even some comical moments if you set it up correctly due to a misunderstanding of cultural norms.
as for the historical component of the game …. revolution / crack down by the warrior caste must be considered …. But there must be other scenarios, such as information gained by the Clans being sent to the great houses …. Resistance forces both pro-house / clans forming an alliance against the warrior caste … shadow war with rival spy agencies ….
An example of a new RPG game’s mission – a what if as it were could be considered ….
If you put sibkos within the IS – what would happen if IS forces started capturing entire sibko schools of children and were able to get them out of Clan space and hide them upon one of the great house’s many planets – rescue mission or consider them to be bond's men and women?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/18/19 01:21 AM
66.74.60.165
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there is one more category of civilian outlook. Those that hate both sides. They don't want IS ways, but want to get out from under their overlords.
Being shown there is a major difference in life then they experienced under clan rule would change alot of how they are dealt with. There is no doubt about that.
The comparison of the way of the warrior should appeal to the crusaders some, but might be taken as an insult to clan honor. Play acting so to speak. And we know some of the warlords would disgust the clans.
The falcons. I don't think they would find much worth praising in the Commonwealth, as social generals run things, with mercs being used by the FS side of it. Though some units may actually gain their acceptance.
I would think spies from the IS would have a bit of an easier time infiltrating the clans, if you keep some of the main story intact. The Dragoons line with Phelan as well. Then again comstar would have to play their part. They did have spies infiltrating the clans, as it lead to the exodus road being mapped. Without that, then you may have issues with the IS side.
Now if you go with some of the novel's hinting that clan wolf was working on using spies, then you have a can of worms to deal with.
The idea of training some children to the ways of the clans, then drop them in a war zone to be taken in as orphans, may well give you the result you are looking for. Long term assets.
Not sure if bond's person fits, as that normally deals with military assets, which children normally aren't considered until they pass their trial of position. Though you could enrage some leaders as their genetic material is taken by the IS.
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Requiem
04/18/19 03:07 AM
1.158.130.13
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A rough idea of what I am attempting to accomplish based upon an alternate historical context …
Dominant Battletech history as from the year 3000 onwards …. There are still many small wars popping up all throughout the Inner Sphere and Beyond.
4th Succession War – Includes Comstar’s Interdiction of the FS
St. Ives State formed
(Comstar / FC – shadow war – introduction of Black Box technology)
FWL – Andurien provice and Canopus form a new state …. etc
The Capellan’s Fall War – CC amalgamated into the FC
Free Wolds leaders – assassinated – Civil War ensures
Found – Helm Computer Core – distributed throughout the IS – all houses begin attempts to retrieve information contained there-in.
All Houses – begin improving technology
Clan Invasion –
First Wave – Turtle Bay – Retaliatory Kamikaze Strike by Kurita
Second Wave - Introduction of large calibre anti-elemental rifles
Introduction of large scale vehicle counter measures (attrition based warfare.
Introduction of commando raids upon rear echelon Clan bases – no security
Third wave – Introduction of both Patrol Dropships with Naval Weapons and Fenrir (Strike Groups) and Large Scale Aerospace Fighter strike groups (armed with Nuclear Weapons?).
Introduction of a new tactic – Aerospace fighters are striking at Clan transport Jump-ships – Due to the lack of Jumpships many Clan’s forward momentum is slowing / stopping.
Fourth Wave (onwards) – Due to the Clan’s Sibko training programs all Clan Forces will begin to experience shortages of Aerospace Pilots, Elementals and MechWarriors.
They are also experiencing resupply shortages (Fenrir and the Kurita equivalent) – and the loss of their rear echelon bases (commando raids – capture of Clan personnel) - Clans find that they need to reconquer First and Second Wave worlds due to the elimination of their Security Bases by Commando forces.
Re-establishment of the Star League - due to the co-ordination of the Inner Sphere forces Clans begin to experience setbacks.
ComStar – Civil War – Focht gains control
ComStar declares for a Trial of Possession regarding Terra - Battle of Tukarid – ComStar Wins – for the next 15 years all Clans are not allowed to proceed beyond Tukarid.
Whilst ComStar’s military is engaged elsewhere – Word of Black infiltrates and captures Terra – at the same time WOB establishes five colonies upon former SL worlds abandoned during the Amaris crisis – they begin establishing military technological industrial complexes upon these worlds.
The Star League and Comstar come to a long term plan regarding the Clans.
The new Star League offers Word of Blake and all the Periphery States a position within the Star League.
Plan – long term – New anti-clan RCts, RACTs, Commando Infantry, pocket warships - together with new omni-mechs / omni-fighters / omni-vehicles / the introduction of Inner Sphere combat infantry power armour.
ARDC established – Kell is given control.
St. Ives – Kai, Cassandra and Kali Liao are engaged in a civil war with Sun-Tzu for the control of the St Ives State.
The Clans are also re-building their forces - however supply runs are becoming more difficult for them as with the establishment of more Fenrir (and Kurita’s) units the run through the deep periphery is becoming more treacherous.
Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf enter into war - due to the heavy damage both receive at each other’s hands the Star League launches an invasion upon these two Clans alone the resulting war forces both Inner Sphere Clans to be assimilated into the SLDF.
Clan Nova Cat and Clan Ghost Bear initiate plans to transfer their entire populations (and technology) from Clan Space to the Inner Sphere – request made for becoming a member of the Star League.
Remaining Clan Inner Sphere forces find their position un-defensible – retreat to Wave 1 and 2 worlds to form a strong defensible position against the Inner Sphere.
Clan Home Worlds – with the elimination of four Clans from the original invasion it is decided four additional clans can replace those that have be abjured or assimilated into the SLDF.
Clan technology is distributed throughout the Inner Sphere - -Front line Military units for the Inner Sphere Omni-Weapons pods are updated with Clan level technology - weapons
Thirteen to Fourteen years have passed by now of the original fifteen years truce.
Sun-Tzu continues with his guerrilla activities to re-establish “his” CC – he is finally tracked down within the FWL and he and his terrorist military are killed to a man by a joint FWL / Kali Liao military strike.
With massive new forces and Omni-weapons etc. the SLDF launces a massive assault upon the remaining Inner Clans – overwhelmed their remaining forces are forced to retreat into the Deep Periphery. At the furthest extreme of the Deep Periphery the remaining IS Clans forces make a stand with the four new Clan forces.
The SLDF follow the Clans into the Deep Periphery – where they are joined by Fenrir (and Kurita’s variant)
War ensures within the Deep Periphery upon unpopulated worlds – war bogs down and becomes a war of attrition – clans are slowly falling back – though the Home Clans could still
(Nt:- at this stage Katherine will take control of the FC with her brother, Victor, upon the front lines – her mother’s death will look like natural causes …)
Secondary SLDF strike group assembled – mission - strike at the Clan Home Worlds – and open a second front before the Clans can send a relief force to the Inner Sphere – mission – destroy the Clans ability to conduct war through the destruction of the majority of their manufacturing facilities.
Some-time during this war a “rogue” Comstar Military Units will infiltrate Terra (in a manner simmer to that of what the WOB did) – War upon Terra starts between ComStar and WOB for the Control of Terra.
WOB forces forces to retreat – they seek asylum within the FWL (whom they have established a close relationship over the years)
FWL military begin defensive operations against “rogue” ComStar forces who are attempting to genocide all former WOB supporters.
After many …. many years of war …. within the Deep Periphery
Clan’s Civilian casts upon the clan’s home worlds rebell against their military caste overlords – with the aid of the SLDF they throw off the yoke of Warrior superiority – Clan Warrior Genetics experimentation and the use of “iron-wombs” becomes illegal.
SLDF have effectively forced the remaining Warrior Clans to disappear into deep space rather than be absorbed / destroyed into the deep space (The same as the Wolverines?)
Note: at the same time the SLDF was involved in the war against the Clans – they were quickly followed by homesteaders / large corporations – establishing new colonies on behalf of all the Inner Sphere Great Houses … (wild wild west within the Deep Periphery )
Upon Victor’s return to the FC he finds he no longer has a throne – Katherine has assumed control over the FC – Victor however assumes control of the Deep Periphery Worlds conquered in the name of the name of the FC – (Omika Kurita travels secretly to Victor where they are wed – and establishing the Steiner – Davion-Kurita Line) and at the same time she takes many of the Kurita Deep Periphery worlds with her to establish the new state ruled by Victor and Omi.
Also Clan Nova Cat defect to Victor’s and Omika’s new realm.
Kurita Vs. Ghost Bear – War over Rasalhague.
Andurien and Canopus Vs. Taurian Concordat due to disputes over newly colonized worlds.
After a break of many years say 3100 approx. …. (many of the main characters will now have had children of their own - and they are now involved)
Katherine, envious of the prosperity Victor and Omika’s new realm have established ….
attempts to use the army of the SLDF as her proxy to gain control over her brothers world – due to a crisis of her own making.
However when evidence is uncovered that Katherine is to blame – and she is no longer allowed the SLDF military a campaign to amalgamate this realm into her FC is launched by the FCAF military units.
Katherine attempts to use the army of the SLDF as her proxy to
However Arthur with the assistance of the Sandoval family (whom Arthur has wed into) declare he is the First Price of the Federated Suns – citing the emergency clause to separate the two realms FS / LC - he declares the FS once more re-born.
Civil War ensures – the children of Hans and Melissa choose sides in this war.
At the same time the Kuritan Deep Periphery realm declare independence from the IS Kuritan Realm – war ensures. However, Clan Ghost Bear and Rasalhague forces align themselves with the Deep Periphery Realm – war widens to include these forces.
Meanwhile back in former Clan Space – the remaining Clans have forces have returned – they attempt to re-conquer their former worlds and helots and reimpose Clan doctrine.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
08/06/19 05:10 AM
1.158.206.105
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The One year of peace – during the Invasion ……
In the fog of war – logistics can be a problem - historically at the 250 mile mark the logistics tend to run out.
Thus units begin to halt at the 250 mile mark - This interlude however is deceptive, the halt is not due to becoming bogged down by the enemy, it is due to moving too fast to allow their logistics to keep up.
Units are not bogged down – they are resting but more importantly they are reaming.
The one year interlude is historically due to the death of the il-Khan and the return to Clan Space of all Khans and their sa-khans to elect a new il-Khan to continue with the war.
However in the future we see a future election conducted by an automatic HPG network connecting the IS with Clan Space – so if they could do this in the near future why not at this time also?
This indicates an apparent issue either when the il-Khan died to a kamikaze attack or in the future.
So early on the Clans Blitzkrieg estoppel be due to the same problem as the Germans in 1940 – and allowing the Allies to remove 350,000 soldiers from Dunkirk – their logistics had effectively run out and they needed to return to Clan space to iron out the issues. And there was no HPG grid network established at that time.
Whereas when a second il-Khan was required in the near future the HPG network had finally been established.
So why were neither of these issues truly explored?
Also if logistics were truly included within the game would you see that you cannot have a large force and move quickly at the same time – you need a small force to move quickly or a large force that moves at a slower rate?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/19 01:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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They had the HPGs on the ships. It might not be like a planetary based set up, but they had some in place.
But this might go back to their original thoughts, of the war would be over quickly, so they didn't think it was needed.
They still had ships making runs, as they didn't eat food from the IS for some of the clans.
In this instance, they purposefully left the logistics low, so they had could stop the clans with it.
Except the distances in the clan example, the fourth war had the logistics figured out with the invasion of the CC. Gutted the economy to do so, which is another example of the lack of ships in the IS, but the war had what they needed. And what do you know... Stockpiled before the war.
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Requiem
08/06/19 08:20 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: But this might go back to their original thoughts, of the war would be over quickly, so they didn't think it was needed.
Blitzkrieg war – blitz – lightning and krieg – war
so why stop for a year?
Surely the Clans Khan's subordinates are more than up to the task of continuing the lightning war if their logistics were not the problem?
Why do the Clans even need the presence of their Khan / sa-khan within the IS if they have a HPG network in place – why not teleconference the war as the US did in the Afgan Conflict?
Or did they also take with them all their command staff – those who had won their last name for the vote – were their presence also required in the first vote / Because they were not required in the second HPG vote?
And if the Clans were without their command blood named elements for over a year – why didn’t the IS counter attack – yes the IS had sustained damage, however how could the Clans keep this information, that their command were no longer personnel were no longer in the IS, from all the IS intelligence agencies for over a year …. ?
Without their command staff all the Clans are now vulnerable to a massive counter attack …..
This just appears to be a little bit strange once you start to dig into it …..
QUOTE: They still had ships making runs, as they didn't eat food from the IS for some of the clans.
Frozen dinners sent from Clan Space and are transported on ice for over six months …… yay! …. you can understand why MREs are given the nick name of Meals Rejected by the Enemy!
Again why were there no flanking manoeuvres utilised to disrupt Clan Logistics by the IS? – no understanding of tactics whatsoever – someone should have read / incorporated WWII History into the game.
QUOTE: which is another example of the lack of ships in the IS
Compare the Fourth Succession War with the Clan Invasion – only about one tenth to one quarter of the Jump ships that were used in the Fourth Succession War were used in the Clan Invasion – there is also the point all IS Great Houses were now building in mass new Jump Ships and were also starting to build Warships at this time - so that is a real non-issue.
QUOTE: And what do you know... Stockpiled before the war.
Logistics is the bead-rock / cornerstone from which all military actions are determined – all military forces must have a permanent logistical network to keeping their forces in the field for extended periods of time.
Thus there must at all times, for all the great Houses and the Clans, be forward bases from which they re-supply their forces – cut them and how many days / weeks of expendables / food / spare parts do they have before things start getting critical?
Just another lack of understanding of tactics etc. that was completely ignored by the invasion canon writing …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/06/19 08:28 PM)
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ghostrider
08/06/19 10:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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Probably an agreement to head back, and deny glory to any other then the khans for victories?
Their officers were good for single combats, but lacked skills in multi planet offenses?
To make sure their gains weren't lost if the enemy pushes back, and the front line units were behind the lines, as garrison duty falls to the PGCs. There are others, but for now, this is a start.
Why do the Clans even need the presence of their Khan / sa-khan within the IS if they have a HPG network in place
Still having issues figuring out the clans? There is no glory sitting behind the lines. And with the initial drive, the HPG network wasn't all there. They had them on the warships, but that didn't mean a full network, as said before.
Also, clan thinking suggests no one can do anything better then me, so don't bother giving them a chance.
Because they were not required in the second HPG vote?
Reread the books. The second vote was rushed as well as the situation in the IS required them to be there. So they did not risk sending back the unit commanders.
Again. The IS didn't attack during that time as they lacked intel on the clans. What is so hard to understand with this? The DC/FC didn't have a handle on the clans at this time. Throwing forces at the enemy without knowing where they were would have been disasterous. You know the intel and outcome, now drop that and look at it from the time frame in the game. NO INTEL. Comstar was feeding false intel as well. So your field ops were sending you a unit was there, but your received the unit wasn't there. And forget the black boxes. They were left out of this. Do the same.
Again why were there no flanking manoeuvres utilised to disrupt Clan Logistics by the IS? – no understanding of tactics whatsoever – someone should have read / incorporated WWII History into the game.
Again. Lack of intel and ships to do so. Risking any without knowing where the enemy warships were was stupidly foolish. Drop the history, as it does NOT apply here. WWII had a few days worth of lag. Not weeks worth to get forces to jump points and jump to where needed. And having forces at the jump point is horrible on moral, as well as risking them to any sort of attack. For a 'military' historian, facts seem to be lacking or maybe the looking glass needs to be cleaned. Maybe if Patton left his army in France when Germany first invaded, they would have been stopped. Oh wait. They would have been dead.
only about one tenth to one quarter of the Jump ships that were used in the Fourth Succession War were used in the Clan Invasion
Where did you come up with this? There was a massive movement of forces from the FS to reinforce the line in the LC. So they may not have been on the front lines, they were in the process of moving things to it. Oh yeah. Moving to the front isn't considered as taxing the fleets, just combat.
MRE didn't improve in time? Assumption here.
Thus there must at all times, for all the great Houses and the Clans, be forward bases from which they re-supply their forces – cut them and how many days / weeks of expendables / food / spare parts do they have before things start getting critical?
So you missed the parts where the clans DID have bases up for supplies, as well as having them being moved at all times. Guess rereading the entire history is in order. The canon history. So many facts are being 'forgotten', it isn't funny anymore.
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Requiem
08/07/19 12:48 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: …deny glory to any others ….. Their officers were good for single combats, but lacked skills in multi planet offenses? …. clan thinking suggests no one can do anything better than me
Consolidating their front lines whilst they gallivanted back to Clan Space was the reason the Khans gave to their warriors. However fear of being out-shined by a younger more capable warrior who could then issue a challenge of position …. This sounds reasonable, within Clan society when you are Khan you must always fear those below you who will one day replace you … there is no job security when you are Khan of a Clan.
It is a wonder the clans could operate as a structured military force when you consider that ever warrior is out to get the next rung in the ladder …. and to get this rung you need to defeat your superior in battle! It’s a wonder more of their warriors didn’t manoeuvre their rivals into an enemy kill box to get rid of them to get the next rung on the corporate Clan ladder.
QUOTE: Because they were not required in the second HPG vote?
Disagree strongly, the Clans entire warrior society is based upon adhering to their ritual and tradition.
In the first they had to all be present for the vote
In the second they were not – again we see the game developers changing the game to meet their own ends – they created a society and the rules for that society and yet when it becomes inconvenient they disregarded it – if they went on the first then they must go on the second due to Clan ritual and tradition.
This has occurred many times throughout the game and shows how shortcuts are used to fit their storyline.
A complete lack of understanding into their own developed society.
QUOTE: The IS didn't attack during that time as they lacked intel on the clans.
What were the leaders of the ID doing with Wolf’s Dragoons at this time?
How easy could this information be distributed to all unit commanders on the front line?
QUOTE: Again. Lack of intel and ships to do so. Risking any without knowing where the enemy warships were was stupidly foolish.
Strongly disagree – Wolf Packs of both the Germans and the US during WW2 demonstrates this statement does not hold water.
And again you need to trust the man on the ground – no military can be micromanaged – go back and look at the fist treatise statement within Sun Tzu The Art of War.
QUOTE: Maybe if Patton left his army in France when Germany first invaded, they would have been stopped. Oh wait. They would have been dead.
At this stage America was not in the war …. Patten was in his barracks back in the USA.
And yet the British got 350,000 off the Beaches!
QUOTE: only about one tenth to one quarter of the Jump ships that were used in the Fourth Succession War were used in the Clan Invasion. Where did you come up with this?
When you look at the numbers of units involved in the Fourth Succession War and that of the Clan Invasion – No more than about a quarter of the units are involved in the Clan to Succession War – there is a huge difference – also look at the units that existed in the Fourth Succession War that somehow just disappeared by the time of the Clan Invasion – why did the game developers do this? Hobbling the game comes to mind.
And didn’t they also have to move in the Fourth Succession War as they did it the Clan Invasion?
MREs are all bad – there is just the spectrum of bad to very bad – though the rat pack chocolate / jam and condensed milk in a tube is always good – Though I have found the older they get the better they are when it comes to tinned meals (go figure?)
QUOTE: So you missed the parts where the clans DID have bases up for supplies,
Sorry didn’t miss anything – what was missed is why these bases were not raided on a more constant basis by IS forces (either as a bombing run by bombers or as a snatch and grab by ground orces). And don’t go saying the IS intelligence operatives didn’t know where they were – if they are in the IS and on planet the resistance should have gotten off a black box message - this information should have been sent – my Deep Periphery strike units should have hunted them down in the Deep Periphery – that just leaves their Navy – were they kept permanently in space? If that is so why didn’t anyone use Big Wing Strikes against these ships?
Again this shows a woefully written canon history!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/19 01:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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What were the leaders of the ID doing with Wolf’s Dragoons at this time?
How easy could this information be distributed to all unit commanders on the front line?
For the most part this isn't intel on how to fight them, but where they are at. Do you jump a counter assault force into Coventry, only to find out the enemy has now taken your base because you are gone.
Did the concentrate their main forces to defend an important world, that you are going after?
You will lose most of that force, as having say 3 clusters of front line omnis are there, and you have just a regiment of mechs.
Equipment was a big issue as well, and not every world would give you the chance to do ambushes like hiding a large force to hit a single star.
Strongly disagree – Wolf Packs of both the Germans and the US during WW2 demonstrates this statement does not hold water.
Apples and oranges. On one world, where you can take your vessel home rather quickly and not have to travel from a jump point to the world or back again, you are relying on the jumpships. A simple force of war vessels, not just warships but other assault dropships as well as fighters, you lose the ability to get back home.
This is also true if you are landed and they take your dropship. So this isn't a sneak attack scenario, where to fire from underwater, to use a weapon that runs unseen, underwater (for the most part.)
Also, you know WHERE the enemy is probably going to be. Not some stab at 10 or 20 locations within your staging area.
So distance and the multitude of locations stops that cold. And in this case, not having the resources to do this. CANON VERSION. Arguing the alt nullifies all your arguments.
An alt is what you want. Reality and history do not apply.
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Requiem
08/07/19 03:26 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: For the most part this isn't intel on how to fight them, (Clans)
The way I remember it ….. Wolf provided all the information so that all of the Leaders of the IS understood their new enemy - their culture, their history, their traditions etc. leading up to how they conduct war. This led up to a Clan trial …. How Victor came to own his Clan Mech “Promethius”.
What they also should have understood at this stage is how the Clan sibko training system works as well as the number of graduates each Clan can produce each year – this should have been a huge red flag to the leaders of the inner sphere that the entire clans military CANNOT sustain a war of attrition when they have in comparison an academy system.
So yes, this information should have been readily transferrable!
So yes, there could have been a counter attack!
At this stage it should have been readily available that a war of attrition utilizing mass vehicle assaults / adapting a WW2 Kesselring Line / sending in a Force to engage the clans supply lines in the Deep Periphery / Establishing Big Wing Assault Forces against Clan Jump Ships (Small Number) / Discussing the Kurita use of Nukes post Turtle Bay / creating an anti-elemental Infantry assault weapon / utilizing commando raids and partisan raids in the rear to destabilize the Clans (WW2 SOE) – especially assassination tactics upon clan warriors outside their vehicles / kidnapping Clan technicians / going after clan re-supply bases – should have been considered.
And in all probability post year of truce the IS forces should have blunted the Clan advance as well as reversals should have started shortly thereafter.
QUOTE: simple force of war vessels, not just warships but other assault dropships as well as fighters, you lose the ability to get back home.
And they are also using Jump Ships - That battle was never fought due to poor writing – though I can say it would be an interesting battle – especially when the Wolf Packs start using area nuclear strikes.
QUOTE: So distance and the multitude of locations stops that cold. And in this case, not having the resources to do this. CANON VERSION. Arguing the alt nullifies all your arguments.
An alt is what you want. Reality and history do not apply.
The Clans Logistics is far more susceptible than that of the Inner Sphere!
The Clans are moving in a straight line so understanding their next target world can be seen as readily identifiable.
What about the missing IS units that were in the 20 Year Handbook and before, but when the new House books came out for whatever reason they no longer existed (Hobbling the game much?)
The Canon version is without doubt a simplistic and totally inaccurate view of how the the invasion should have been considered. You need to readily suspend belief through-out the entire campaign – where were the mass vehicle assaults upon the clans? - it requires a massive re-write.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/19 10:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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What they also should have understood at this stage is how the Clan sibko training system works as well as the number of graduates each Clan can produce each year – this should have been a huge red flag to the leaders of the inner sphere that the entire clans military CANNOT sustain a war of attrition when they have in comparison an academy system.
So yes, this information should have been readily transferrable!
So yes, there could have been a counter attack!
Knowing how to shoot, doesn't mean you know where the enemy is. This seems to be something comprehension is lacking. And without warships, the ability to sustain a war is mute. If you can not reach the enemy, then you will lose.
Part of what has allowed the U.S. to avoid the major land battles that have ravaged the other nations, especially Asia. Now say you want to invade, but where do you send your transports? Which are is going to have military forces that will sink them without a problem? Where do you send a massed fleet, only to find out no one is there?
If you are so great at this, why not tell us where the next conflict will be, and when. It seems you know everything like that, and so the game characters should.
And they could have counter attacked. And lost more then they could afford.
At this stage it should have been readily available that a war of attrition utilizing mass vehicle assaults. They had figured this out, as it was suggested having vehicles weaken the clans before the mech forces engage. Reread the history, as you are either forgetting things, or purposefully leaving out facts to continue to push that the developers don't know anything.
You asked if the ship construction needed a rewrite. Now it has become like most of the threads. The alt says this so it must be done.
Did they hobble the game? Or did they decide that there would be no way the clans could threaten the IS with a few hundred more regiments?
The Canon version is without doubt a simplistic and totally inaccurate view of how the the invasion should have been considered. When did the creator of a games universe be totally inaccurate on that games history? When did someone changing everything to turn out their way, become the ONLY way the story should have developed? If the game had gone logically, the DC would have destroyed the FS in the first way. The massacre was no more horrifying then nuking worlds. So have you gone to robotech and told them their story was garbage? How about Halo? Mass effect? Warhammer 40k? Did you write to any of the shows and say they had to reshoot the entire series as it did not turn out the way you wanted it to?
I guess Star Wars needs a rewrite. It didn't turn out like it should have.
You are only here to argue things that does not exist in the canon universe.
This concept of the larger ships is completely opposite of what the game needs. Sooner or later, only one side has them. There is no balance to this at that point. Complain about the clans having warships, yet you are trying to propose the same logic, but don't think it is the same mistake. Probably because you came up with it.
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Requiem
08/08/19 05:34 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: So yes, this information should have been readily transferrable! So yes, there could have been a counter attack!
Wolf Dragoons meeting with the all the heads of the Great Houses during the Clan’s one year pause – do you believe Wolf left information out or he explained everything?
If he explained everything – the Sibko training program was included.
Also didn’t Wolf put all the heirs of the Great Houses through a quick representation of the Sibko program? (Victor, Sun Tzu, etc) …. Thus the sibko system must have been discussed in detail.
If the Sibko Training system was discussed in detail its inherent weakness must have been obvious and as such a tactics should have changed to a war of attrition plus mass assassination of all warriors upon conquered worlds by partisans / commandoes using high powered sniper rifles – over time their loss depletion could not equal replacement numbers – thus you get shrinkage of overall force numbers.
Yes the losses by the IS would have been great but over time the Clans would have fallen.
QUOTE: Knowing how to shoot, doesn't mean you know where the enemy is.
By the start of the year of peace doesn’t the IS know every world the Clans have captured in the IS?
QUOTE: And without warships, the ability to sustain a war is mute.
My Alt Universe – PT Dropships armed with naval lasers and capital missiles
Outside of the Alt Universe – Big wing fighter squadrons plus Alamo Missiles (5KT Nuke).
I would say the IS can very easily reach out and touch the Clan’s Warships!
QUOTE: why not tell us where the next conflict will be, and when
Easy – the IS established multiple WW2 Kesselring Lines upon the worlds in front of the Clans Invasion Corridor (multiple lines in depth)– there they mass vehicles / VTOLS / regular aircraft with bombs etc as well as Infantry (and their new portable anti elemental weapons) and lie in wait for the next clan invasion – they they conduct war games to simulate the attrition warfare tactics.
So when the Clans kick off their next wave they will be in for a very big surprise.
At the same time this kicks off the assassinations begin all throughout the Clans rear worlds!
QUOTE: They had figured this out, as it was suggested having vehicles weaken the clans before the mech forces engage.
Wolcott
QUOTE: Or did they decide that there would be no way the clans could threaten the IS with a few hundred more regiments?
Depends on who is writing the story.
QUOTE: id you write to any of the shows and say they had to reshoot the entire series as it did not turn out the way you wanted it to?
Didn’t have to their story line is quite accurate given their games history. Battletech however has so many holes in it it’s not funny.
QUOTE: This concept of the larger ships is completely opposite of what the game needs.
A Navy requires a mix of all ship types to make it effective.
They are all however susceptible to a variety of attack strategies.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/19 12:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the Sibko Training system was discussed in detail its inherent weakness must have been obvious and as such a tactics should have changed to a war of attrition plus mass assassination of all warriors upon conquered worlds by partisans / commandoes using high powered sniper rifles – over time their loss depletion could not equal replacement numbers – thus you get shrinkage of overall force numbers.
As this is supposed to be a story of real life, not some numbers game, even house Kurita was not going to blindly send millions to their deaths just to overwhelm the clans. And without doing so, they did stop the clans. And yes. They could have started pushing them back, but the possibility of the clans taking that as a violation of the truce kept them from doing so.
Now as an accountant, here are some numbers you have to think on. How much in C-bills would this whole operation cost? Manpower? Equipment? Take a few years to build up and get the better equipment out to the troops, so you don't have to send a company to deal with a single star, and hope you win.
And the IS would not stoop to killing children as a main target. So suggesting they would is just as bad as the execution of the Wolves in exile situation. But then you are not following the mistakes of canon.
By the start of the year of peace doesn’t the IS know every world the Clans have captured in the IS?
Worlds yes. Where their forces are? No. And honestly, they weren't completely sure of the borderlands. Comstar faking transmissions could very well mean your staging area was actually under clan rule, so your units coming in with small numbers would be wiped out before they even got to the world. But then being the tactician you are, this was considered before screaming about it.
The IS didn't know of the clans would push forward or not. Just because it was said they do things a certain way, it does not mean they were doing the exact thing 40 years into the future. Each new khan has their own ideas.
Make this pure alt or pure canon. Arguing the faults of canon, while using the alt as the basis isn't very bright. In my alt, we have better ranges on all weapons, as a single click in open terrain is completely stupid. I brought up the fact the ranges were stupid, but did not say it had to be changed. Didn't say my alt had over 2 klicks for some weapons.
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ghostrider
08/08/19 01:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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Easy – the IS established multiple WW2 Kesselring Lines upon the worlds in front of the Clans Invasion Corridor (multiple lines in depth)– there they mass vehicles / VTOLS / regular aircraft with bombs etc as well as Infantry (and their new portable anti elemental weapons) and lie in wait for the next clan invasion – they they conduct war games to simulate the attrition warfare tactics.
So when the Clans kick off their next wave they will be in for a very big surprise.
At the same time this kicks off the assassinations begin all throughout the Clans rear worlds!
Canon story did no such thing. Oh yeah. Stuck in the fantasy, and not dealing with the canon lines. Well atleast not who wins and loses.
Now assassination. This is not the same as headhunting. And when the clans figure it out, there would be total warfare from the clans. They would not abide by any rules, as the entire IS would be label as Dezgra. So either alt, or canon. Take your pick and stick with it. And your alt has been changed a few times since being on the board. So it isn't like they are flawless.
QUOTE: They had figured this out, as it was suggested having vehicles weaken the clans before the mech forces engage.
Wolcott.
In the novel, the Hanse was talking to his advisors on it. They used the vehicles to good effect, as clanners refused to engage them if any mechs were on the field. Trellwan had started the range nullifying ideas.
A Navy requires a mix of all ship types to make it effective.
They are all however susceptible to a variety of attack strategies.
So they don't have it now? They have yet to make a floating fortress on the seas. Well besides some carriers, though they are not invulnerable. Mix of ships isn't just size but abilities to go with them. If the PT boats had anti air guns on them, how many of the larger ships wouldn't have been hit by strafes?
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Requiem
08/08/19 07:41 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: As this is supposed to be a story of real life, not some numbers game,
Please indicate a war where numbers are not considered?
Vietnam is a good example where numbers were misused to indicate a false impression of what was going on …….
If an attrition policy was suggested I believe Kurita would have been first in line to adopt this new policy ….
QUOTE: a violation of the truce
First, there was no truce …. It was just the Clans did not advance and the IS decided to consolidate their position and allow their front line troops time for Rest, Relaxation, Recuperation and Rearmament ……
Second …. My strategy allows the Clans to Attack, not the other way around …..
QUOTE: How much in C-bills would this whole operation cost? Manpower? Equipment? Take a few years to build up and get the better equipment out to the troops, so you don't have to send a company to deal with a single star, and hope you win.
Question at the rate the Clans are being allowed to progress how long until they take over the IS – how much will that cost?
QUOTE: And the IS would not stoop to killing children as a main target.
When and where did I suggest this?
QUOTE: By the start of the year of peace doesn’t the IS know every world the Clans have captured in the IS? Worlds yes. Where their forces are?
On world Clan Forces - Partisans and Black Box Technology – yes they do Know where they are on every world!
Only those in space are to be considered an unkown variable.
As for ComStar – would Hanse (still alive) even believe a word that came out of their mouth?
QUOTE: he IS didn't know of the clans would push forward or not
After the third wave it is pretty obvious the direction in which the Clan Invasion Force is moving.
QUOTE: 40 years into the future
Canon has them permanently kicked out of the home worlds – they have their fiefdoms and are beginning to act as petty tyrants they are!
QUOTE: Canon story did no such thing.
Repetition of the same thing and expecting a different result each time is the definition of …..? and this is what the canon story is ….
I still contend that what I am suggestion is what the strategy department would have implemented given the increased information about the enemies disposition /culture / strategies / loss depletion reports based upon attrition warfare etc – what was written within canon is a child’s story (Fantasy where you must constantly dispel belief) written in a way that has no bearing in modern tactics ….
QUOTE: Now assassination. This is not the same as headhunting.
First …. Nukes are being used by Kurita at the minimum due to Turtle Bay ….
Second …. Who said there were any rules. They are a viable military target …. Any clan personnel on any IS world should be put in a state of constant fear of an IED / sniper round.
Can you show me any war where an invading force did hot have constant attacks from the indigenous population?
Third …. Who said the IS had to fight using Clan Rules?
QUOTE: Wolcott
DCMS – Hohiro Kurita – Wiki “he battle had been a trap; instead of facing what were thought to be "green" troops, the Combine forces were actually elite Genyosha regiments. The Smoke Jaguars were defeated thanks to the defenders' battle skills as well as the terrain advantage of the planet's wooded marshes”
QUOTE: Naval Vessels
WW1 – saw the introduction of fast attack craft utilising torpedoes
In order to counter these ships the destroyer class was soon introduced.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/19 09:07 PM
66.74.60.165
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QUOTE: a violation of the truce
First, there was no truce
Well this shows you don't have any real concept of the game. This may explain why real logic isn't getting thru.
QUOTE: And the IS would not stoop to killing children as a main target.
When and where did I suggest this?
If he explained everything – the Sibko training program was included.
Also didn’t Wolf put all the heirs of the Great Houses through a quick representation of the Sibko program? (Victor, Sun Tzu, etc) …. Thus the sibko system must have been discussed in detail.
This sounds very much like they should hit the sikcos to prevent reinforcements.
QUOTE: he IS didn't know of the clans would push forward or not
After the third wave it is pretty obvious the direction in which the Clan Invasion Force is moving.
The year long pause. I guess mixing up when things happen is showing.
Second …. Who said there were any rules. They are a viable military target …. Any clan personnel on any IS world should be put in a state of constant fear of an IED / sniper round.
Can you show me any war where an invading force did hot have constant attacks from the indigenous population?
Third …. Who said the IS had to fight using Clan Rules?
Canon: A professional army is not set up to kill just anyone that come across their path. As shown with what happened on Turtle bay, the clans would escalate removing such issues. I can say Galtor didn't fight house Davion when they invaded. There are others as well.
Your alt: changes the game from armored combat to partisan strikes. I won't use the other word that comes to mind. Also, your changes logic of the game completely. Using nukes, assassinations and such is the same as the Jihad. And worse. You say that the houses wouldn't start using it against each other.
And your Aries conventions would ban such tactics. Or did you think the alt wouldn't have to abide by them dealing with the clans? Hell. With these tactics in use, why bother with the conventions? Killing the enemies leadership means you take first lord title, as stated in earlier posts.
WW1 – saw the introduction of fast attack craft utilising torpedoes
In order to counter these ships the destroyer class was soon introduced.
Any yet they seemed to stop, non carrier, at the battle ship. The Bismark was the largest, and the last. Why? Because larger sizes made a good target without benefitting the army that has it? Too expensive? Too difficult to get some speed out of it?
Now. As canon was so crappy, and you still kept with it, Why didn't the clan get a different storyline? Removing them is one, but you suggested they evolved that way was flawed. And yet you kept it.
Question at the rate the Clans are being allowed to progress how long until they take over the IS – how much will that cost?
Did you forget the alt had more forces that were better equipped? So how did the clans invade so deeply? Get your alt straight and stop using canon as a basis for the argument then changing to the alt for an answer.
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Requiem
08/08/19 09:54 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: a violation of the truce
A truce in most cases is a temporary arrangement between the two warring parties – when did they come together to discuss this?
The Canon story is an informal at best – the IS forces are on the defensive and when the Clans did not attack, as was expected, so all the Generals decided to dig in rather than counter attack.
But in reality?
QUOTE: This sounds very much like they should hit the sikcos to prevent reinforcements.
Reading Comprehension …. Really?
How can any IS force achieve this when all of the Sibkos are within Clan Space?
QUOTE: The IS didn't know of the clans would push forward or not.
A professional army …. Question what is a viable military target?
QUOTE: Assassination
How many assassinations of head of states have occurred through the IS history – concubine snow fire for example.
All Clan personnel upon any world are a viable military target.
Ares conventions only bans such tactics against civilians. Examples –
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities - unless a military target was within the city - and against civilian targets. Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was. Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.
The only recognisable Clan Civilians are those conducting commerce in the IS.
QUOTE: Bismark
Bismark Battleship – 251m long – 36m beam
Yamato Battleship – 263m long – 38.9m beam – the “floating hotel”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/09/19 01:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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A truce in most cases is a temporary arrangement between the two warring parties – when did they come together to discuss this?
Tukiyadd.
And the house lords let the deal represent them as well. ALL the clans agreed to it, and the houses didn't suggest they were not going to agree to it. Simple logic.
There are more then a few historical examples of digging in, instead of attacking. Mainly, not having the forces to go on the offensive. Some were just a good defensive area that could hold off a superior foe. Part of the reason for the spartans.
The only recognisable Clan Civilians are those conducting commerce in the IS.
This requires a time frame. The Diamond Sharks were doing trades, and were military in operations, as well as the Ghost Bears having their civvies come in, yet not be part of the trading statement.
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities - unless a military target was within the city - and against civilian targets. Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was. Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.
Logically, this would never come about. There will always be someone hitting civvies and suggesting a military guard was the target and they missed. It is funny as warfare is suggested, meaning someone would say this doesn't cover peacetime strikes. And it will happen. Well at least logically and in reality. Most of those may well be militia groups, but then who is supplying them?
The fantasy of the alt suggesting no one would ever violate this is complete garbage. The opposing houses would still do this, even fighting the clans. Liao especially against Davion. And civil war. Well no one said it couldn't be an internal conflict.
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Requiem
08/09/19 04:03 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: Tukayyid
Year of Peace –
31 October 3050 – ilKhan Leo Showers is killed, halting Operation Revival
November 3051 – Operation Revival Resumes
Truce of Tukayyid – 1 May 3052
The Year of Peace is not a truce it is a cessation of hostilities – a good WW2 example is the period just before Dunkirk, that period of time which would become to be known as ‘phony war’.
QUOTE: The fantasy of the alt suggesting no one would ever violate this is complete garbage.
This is why the JAG Corp of your own army would have you up on charges – especially if the media received images of the action and which were then subsequently broadcasted.
How you fight in your realm is one thing – but in reality the War Crimes Tribunal exists and as a recruit it is drummed into you the the rules of law as it pertains to conflict and civilians / their property etc.
However, in Battletech these rules are constantly violated because no one ever bothers to read or understand the rules – it is just see enemy unit – destroy enemy unit – who cares where the enemy unit is mentality is rife throughout the game.
If the game adhered to the Ares Conventions you would see a vastly different game.
Though the Clans never signed the Document, thus they do whatever they want – which requires the IS forces to adapt to the changing tactics as necessary.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/09/19 12:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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This is why the JAG Corp of your own army would have you up on charges
Yeah. Full fantasy here. The JAG would never put a ruler up on charges. Well not unless the military is about to turn completely against you, such as impeachment or revolt. They haven't in the past, and won't in the future. Soldiers would be, but not someone like the archon. Which they didn't when Katherine was destroying lives with her actions.
Year of Peace –
31 October 3050 – ilKhan Leo Showers is killed, halting Operation Revival
November 3051 – Operation Revival Resumes
Ok. I didn't think of this time. I was thinking after the battle of Tukyidd.
However, in Battletech these rules are constantly violated because no one ever bothers to read or understand the rules – it is just see enemy unit – destroy enemy unit – who cares where the enemy unit is mentality is rife throughout the game.
This is a war game. Not some psycological play of how a warrior's mental conditions are. See the enemy. He is on your property. Gee. Should we ask him why he is here?
Did he get off at the wrong stop?
Well, maybe after he is done destroying our stuff.
Well what about the rest of the unit with him?
If the game adhered to the Ares Conventions you would see a vastly different game.
There is no doubt about this. The entire fight with Amaris would have been far different as well as the first succession war. All states did crap, but the Combine would have been politically out casted for what they did. Granted, there would not be much else, as the CC and FWL had no physical contact with them, and would not stop their wars to let the FS and LC deal with it.
Though the Clans never signed the Document, thus they do whatever they want – which requires the IS forces to adapt to the changing tactics as necessary.
The clans are descendent of the SLDF. As such, they would have it instilled upon them to never use WMDs with the exception of warship bombardment. As such weapons promote horrible waste, they would not resort to nuke and other options. There is no honor in using them at all. As for treatment of civilians, that one would be one they ignore.
Odd post coming form someone that was demanding using nukes against the clans. Or total warfare against them.
Violating the articles in them, to avoid destroying jumpships, as well as wiping out depots without a second thought. Those depots have non warriors in them, as a warrior of the clans would never do the lowly job of a laborer.
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Cray
08/09/19 01:31 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
If the game adhered to the Ares Conventions you would see a vastly different game.
It would be, but the Ares Conventions were suspended by the Star League in 2575 for the Reunification War, and then were formally abandoned by the Houses in the 2780s. They're centuries dead in the 31st Century.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
08/09/19 07:36 PM
1.158.206.105
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Historically, yes a ruler is not held accountable, and rules in law have been put in place to ensure this cannot happen. However, a ruler is accountable to their people through a strong and fair media – Kurita, Liao this wouldn’t happen – though Steiner, Marik and Davion yes I believe it would.
If an enemy is attacking could they limit the damage by skirting around towns and cities / fighting in areas far removed from any civilians or agricultural infrastructure?
Cray – yes the Ares Conventions are long dead by 31st Century – However, Knights of Inner Sphere as well as other house unit commanders / mercenary unit commanders have a good reputation for adhering to these long dead documents – Could there have been an unofficial agreement by some to adhere to these rules and how pervasive could it have been in some militaries (even in Kurita’s DCMS – the first lord of the Genyosha had a god relationship with Wolf (Wolf Dragoons) could he have been a proponent of adhering to the old rules of war)?
QUOTE: Clans adhering to the Ares Conventions
POW caps as shown in the Somerset Strikers Cartoon?
Using Elementals to kill civilians in a city?
Respecting the rights of civilians to their property?
Respecting any civilians Rights?
Imposing their culture upon their conquered worlds – putting them into class groups – removing children from their families as they do on the Clan Home worlds?
Clans decimating cities during invasions?
Sorry but I am of the belief the clans also have a long lead mentality of the Ares Conventions – I believe that the Clans are under the impression their rules have superseded this document – thus over time their views have become warped as to what is right and wrong on the battlefield.
Yes it is an odd post, and yes I am being hypocritical to my beliefs – but I must also be a realist – if the game developers do not allow the IS to have warships at the time of Clan Invasion and the Clans use an orbital bombardment upon a city within Kurita space there is only one logical response – nuclear Kamikaze attacks. So unless the Clans can show remorse / remove all of their warships from the IS they will in all likelihood continue and expand onto ground warfare.
I believe this is how a Samurai of the 31st Century would act (Gen. Tojo is about as close a person historically we have to understand them)
And when you look at the Canon books for each clan and look at the number of Jump ships each of them have – they are the weakest link in the Clan Invasion – stop them and you stop them cold.
This tactic should have been discussed at least.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/09/19 07:38 PM)
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ghostrider
08/10/19 01:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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However, a ruler is accountable to their people through a strong and fair media – Kurita, Liao this wouldn’t happen – though Steiner,
Steiner? Really? So Katherine didn't lie and manipulate the populations by forcing the media to put her in the angel spotlight, while Victor, hell the entire family, as the devils consorts?
If an enemy is attacking could they limit the damage by skirting around towns and cities / fighting in areas far removed from any civilians or agricultural infrastructure?
Could you just hurl insults and get into a slap fight?
I thought war was to remove the enemies ability to fight. Removing food from them is one way to demoralize them. This causes and enemy to decide to deploy limited resources to delivering food, or let their people starve. Not much of a real tactician.
I don't agree with it, but then I never claimed to be one of the best. Self promotion makes you lose sight of reality at times.
So there is no way the clans could have evolved adhering to the conventions during the exodus and thru out their history?
Still clinging to the canonverse, and drowning in their logic holes, and yet complaining they are completely wrong, and yet the only way to fix it is to reverse the roles so the clans are at the receiving end of things?
And yet, not seeing the logic holes being formed by this perfect set up?
What am I saying? This would have removed the clans from being a threat to the IS in the way they were.
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Requiem
08/10/19 02:11 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: Steiner Media
Tharkan Media Associates who owns Tharkad Broadcasting Corporation who produces a well-regarded daily news program that covers events both inside and external to the Lyran realm.
As for Katherine she is adept at putting forth an appropriate media perception, to the point many fawn over her.
QUOTE: Evolution of the Clans with regards to the Ares Conventions
Putting aside the past and adopting a new way of living over time can be considered a fact.
However the rules the Clans initially put into place to limit the damage caused by their weapons can be considered to be a further development of the Ares Conventions to suit their current situation within Clan Space.
However, over time the interpretation of these rules can be reinterpreted into something other than what they were originally intended to reflect within the Clan society.
Thus by the time the Invasion of IS comes about the Clans rules have become a somewhat dogmatic and hash interpretation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
10/05/19 07:58 PM
1.158.185.137
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Is clan space too distant from the Inner Sphere?
I would answer this in the affirmative, yes, clan space is too far distant from the inner sphere.
If it were closer a new realm could have been established to connect the two together
Thus more conflict?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/05/19 11:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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Want more conflict, then break up the states into smaller regions, like going back to before they became the successor states. Make the map so only 5 to 10 worlds form a multi system organization.
Yes, some of the major ones, like almost anything Defiance is in, would start dominating those around them, others could assist or even fight over those worlds. As Defiance does have an issue with food on Hespetus, staving them out is an option.
Firebombing all planets that sell food is one thought.
Choking them off of ores and such would be another. Maybe even having a civil war on Hespetus that destroys most of the lines, allowing only 3 or so models at a very reduced production rate, and doing the same with the ship yards.
It could be this very thing that breaks up the states, as accusations of who sponsored it, or rivals just have their factories coming on line, and thought to remove the competition.
Maybe ROM/Comstar decided to create issues, and did it so no one could rival their power.
Maybe the worlds that went independent started a whole grass roots effort and the state forces that are stationed on the worlds, decide to back them breaking off, with a huge number of them doing so. No chance to gather and send forces from capital worlds.
The new realm would take several generations to come to a point that they could even think of holding their own without support from the main IS states. And they would be just like the initial colonies. Not trusting one another, especially if they were supported by the different states in the IS. Much like the original exodus civil war.
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Requiem
10/07/19 05:37 AM
1.158.185.137
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... and yet is clan space too distant from the Inner Sphere?
For me yes it is too far distant. As it stands the two realms are two independent realms.
Wouldn't it have been better for the Battletech universe to be able to combine the Inner Sphere and Clan Space by 3150?
As isn't it taking an extremely long time just to get the next book from 3150 on-wards?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/07/19 11:43 AM
66.74.60.165
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There are more logical alternatives then trying to make a CC sized realm pop up in less then 15 years. As suggested, it would start with the clan invasion and basically have to be done by the time the Civil war ends.
Now. What if the 'realm' was actually started earlier, such as 3000 or 3010?
In an effort to get resources, the LC or DC or even both, pushed out in to the periphery on their borders, far enough away from the clans line of invasion, as they were not touched.
The support for making this could well have been a secret part of the LC alliance agreement. Davion tactics combined with Steiner industry would be the case. So better then average defenses...
On the DC side, Comstar may have helped in order to gain an advantage over the FS/FC.
This would also explain the lack of black boxes during the later wars, as it was used to keep the FC part of it quiet from Comstar.
The fourth war could have had a secret agenda with this as well. The auxillery units attached to the better RCT's could have become the backbone of the garrisons for these very worlds.
As suggested in other threads, a few worlds would become the staging areas for further colonization as well as exploration of the areas they are in. This would allow a population build up with industries to support the explotation of that area. Not over night, but up to 40 or so years before the clans. Still pushing it a bit, but much better then a 5 year mad rush. Especially as the invasion had done so much damage to the IS worlds. The building would have been done before this happened.
As a side benefit, these very worlds could be the basis for your raids into the clans supply route.
Another thing is this could have been what set off the intel shadow war with Comstar, as someone might have found out about the operations and someone in the FC intel department stopped them, but exposed the entire network.
The 3039 war with the combine would not have happened, as the resources were being sent elsewhere, but the destruction of the Confederation could still have happened. More units getting combat experience and sent out instead of being disbanded.
Not perfect, but that is why I am not a developer for games. It does spread out the time for doing this.
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ghostrider
10/07/19 11:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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And the timeline of the game has never been steady.
I think the developers have run into issues threatening the entire IS with something other then a massive civil war. The WOB thing was shaky to begin with, and didn't seem to fit into anything, other then sell more books.
Now who would be the next boggy man? So far the DC's destruction of so many FS forces seems to be headed that way. But without the FS falling, it returns to the first war scenario, with the clans in the way.
If they destroy the FS, then they lose some players as well as destroy a lot of balance in the game. And yes, I think they did that with the destruction of the CC in the fourth war. The FWL should have become more powerful to counter this.
Still. non human enemies could exist, but I don't see how they would be able to fit into the game, as there would be no reason, other then clan Wolverine, for them to have mechs and the same type of technology.
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Requiem
10/08/19 07:31 PM
1.158.185.137
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Sorry, but I am not contemplating a “CC realm that will just pop-up”
What I am suggesting is that Kerensky formed the “Clan’s Realm” VERY much closer than the canon writings.
Thus the clan invasion could have occurred – the IS could have invaded huntress etc.
However given that the IS now knows of its close proximity further invasions by clans and IS could occur – as well as an under-ground black market of transport ships taking goods between the two realms. Also worlds between the two realms would now become strategically important (forward security bases etc.) – thus they would be needed to be fought over etc.
With a closer proximity between the two realms the future development of the game would have moved in a more positive direction. You could easily scrap the Jihad and everything there after …. And design a new alternate universe based upon this proximity.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/08/19 08:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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There are more logical alternatives then trying to make a CC sized realm pop up in less then 15 years.
Notice the sized word in that line. Some how it is missing from the first line in your response.
With your alt, and referring to the other thread, it talks about a realm that Victor and Omi take over to fight the clans and the IS.
The time line starts as the clans invade.
Now. How does this realm become powerful enough to fight both sides, and not be the size of the CC or larger?
6 months of traveling time is close to what the FS forces would have had, if they didn't have a command circuit. A week for each jump being averaged, those on the TC border would take a while to get to the clan border. And moving troops like that happened a lot more often then you might think.
I can see the idea of moving clanspace closer to the IS might be considered a good thing, but when you really think about it, the clans would have been discovered a lot sooner. There were scouts other then Comstar doing searches for materials and even colonies to get away from the IS politics. Even pirates would have found them, as they were looking for prey.
There are relatively few worlds that would need to be 'fought' over in the supply lines between the IS and clans. Some of those very lines would become allied with the IS, as the clans became part of the Star League. The Falcons would be the main ones that would need to be removed, as the Smoke Jaguars were take out when the SLDF went after Huntress.
Now. Suggesting a more positive direction, does that mean more warfare? Then how about the clans don't get stopped, and now the entire IS has to deal with the clans, and the fighting on the outer edges are getting desperate.
As anything else wouldn't hold up for long.
One more thing. If the IS did have the jumpships and dropships you want to believe, they could have just sent in fleets to drop tank and infantry regiments on worlds and brought in mechs when the clans were weakened and out of ammo. This is you war of attrition.
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Requiem
10/08/19 11:27 PM
1.158.185.137
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Quote: “There were scouts other then Comstar doing searches for materials and even colonies to get away from the IS politics. Even pirates would have found them, as they were looking for prey”.
And yet the Clans have warships – and any-one that found them would suddenly disappear off the end of the map …. So no problem there!
Strategic bases from which to use as a spring-board will always be of military importance …
… a more positive direction ….. a more interesting story line that that of the Jihad etc ….
Quote: “As anything else wouldn't hold up for long”.
I am sure I could come up with something that would “hold up”
And yes war of attrition is the Clan’s Kryptonite – they just do not have the manpower to sustain a prolonged war – “Sibko” numbers are just not there
So overall I believe this was a mistake – Clan-space should have been very much closer to the Inner Sphere than given by Canon – the two realms should have been close enough that by 3150 they could have been considered one realm.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/09/19 01:48 AM
66.74.60.165
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and any-one that found them would suddenly disappear off the end of the map
And that is the key. If the warships found anyone in the system. And with the clans, it isn't likely they had the warships escorting ships to their periphery, as they were more needed if another clan decided to strike.
Also, this is if the scouts came in after the warship was there.
Raiding clan outposts and worlds is different, as they would be looking for such an intrusion.
Also, Comstar did have warships that could very well have ran into clan ships before Comstar stopped using them if the clans were much closer.
Also worlds between the two realms would now become strategically important (forward security bases etc.)
Words that have been set up for staging areas would be, but colony worlds that have no value, other then food would be unlikely to become a battleground world, unless someone says it is a threat. Unlikely from the clans point of view, and the IS would be likely to keep forces out of the area, as the clans did show they were not ones to fight in cities if it could be avoided. But some IS commanders would do so because they think the clans were afraid to.
Another issue with being closer would have to deal with the time the clans invade. Closer would mean more ships being stopped at their border, which would in turn cause the clans to decide to launch much sooner then 3049. Hell, they might not even wait until the first succession war was over with.
As the alt is done as wanted, this is just food for thought. I don't think the clans were meant to do more then threaten the IS, and allow some things that would never happen otherwise, like the reformation of the League. But I guess they didn't learn that joining together limits non civil war fights.
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Requiem
10/09/19 06:28 PM
1.158.185.137
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Let us consider Politics Exodus to 4th Succession War
Clans – Isolationist – it was not until some-time around 3000 that a political movement was formed to take back the IS. Until then their navy was utilised for internal security and challenges from other Clans. They only left Clan Space once during this time – to hunt down the remnants of Clan Wolverine.
IS – Pre-occupied with the Succession Wars.
Comstar – when did they start sending out their ships looking for Kerensky? And if the followed the exodus fleet would not this mean they would start over by the Davion / Kurita Border (where Kerensky’s fleet departed the IS), so how long would it take for them know they ended up somewhere beyond the Steiner / Kurita border?
Is it not accurate / logical to say it would take a very long time from when they started to when they found them? So can we not say that the Canon history could still be considered to be accurate?
Pirates / Nomads – if the clans couldn’t secure their borders from these groups there is something wrong. Also why would they tell the IS that they found Kerensky’s lost fleet and who would even believe them?
Worlds between the IS and Clan Space
Food
Minerals
Forward jump point for invasion - re-supply points
Politics – the importance of your realm is proportional to the number of worlds you have – a point even the Clans appreciate
Closer does not mean they will attack earlier as this is a political decision not a geographical decision.
The invasion itself could then be more accurate and more realistic – more forces would be involved etc – from the myopic and silly story offered.
This, in my opinion, could lead to a better story line than that offered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/09/19 11:51 PM
66.74.60.165
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Clan Wolverine was destroyed before the 3000's. So the warships leaving only once because of that is incorrect.
Another thing that is incorrect we the clans did not leave on the Davion/Kurita border, but straight north on the IS map, as they used that to return to the IS.
The Wolverines were the ones to head out near the Kurita/Davion border.
Closer does not mean they will attack earlier as this is a political decision not a geographical decision.
Actually, the attack came because they thought the IS had found the clans home worlds. The initial discussion was political. But was shot down by the Wolf's Dragoons solution. Had there been multiple breaches by different ships, it would have been geographic.
The pirates may not have even known they found Kerensky, but just a populated planet.
Which also makes me wonder why the Outbound Light arrived over Huntress and not another system. Well besides the story wanted it that way.
The Comstar search could well have been going on for longer then a few dozen years. It is possible they were searching since the 2800's. They had run into more then a few jump points that were sabotaged to discourage pursuit as written in the books. Blake would have known which direction the clans took as the HPG network was being used to get supplies to the fleet.
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Requiem
10/10/19 05:46 PM
1.158.185.137
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Clan Wolverine – timeline refers to during the establishment of the Clans not around the 3000’s
The Kerensky Fleet travelled to New Samarkand and then out though the Outworlds Alliance – refer Wiki, so no they did not go straight north!
Did the Clans believe they could exist in exile from the IS forever?
Refer wiki – The Great Debate – started the middle of the 30th Century – so approx. 2950
Outbound light found Huntress on 27 Sept 3048
So re-think this point.
As for the HPG network being used for the IS supplying the Exodus Fleet after they left – where is the evidence for this?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/13/19 11:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not sure where I seen it suggest the Clans went thru the combine, out of the top, or where it was suggested their invasion followed the exodus trail back to the IS, so can't really do much with this. I want to say the original 3050 book, but only have a few things copied from it, as I didn't buy the original.
I think they changed history with the game with this.
Oddly enough, the Combine was immensely worried the SLDF was going to hit Luthien as general Kerensky held extended war games near it.
Might have been the Minnesota Tribe that dealt with the romp from the 'north' then out thru the 'east' or OA that seems to have this mind set.
Comstar did find a few worlds the exodus fleet used for resources while traveling. Barbados was one of them.
Now it is completely stupid for task force Serpent to have followed the exodus road, as the path shown by Trent would not have been that route. They followed the clan logistics, and that was no where near the exodus route. Otherwise, all supplies would have ended up near the OA, then shipped to the invasion corridor. That is far more unbelievable then the clans not bringing in extra supplies.
And Task force Serpent was worried about running into clan warships, which would NOT have been along the old exodus route.
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Requiem
01/23/20 09:15 PM
1.158.235.15
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Further essay reply to comments made:-
How many chances did the IS have to obtain Clan Technology? And yet the best reason anyone can come up with to say why the IS did not use Clan Technology is to say the IS did not have the money to manufacture it …. Manhattan Project …. Skunk Works ….. and every other hidden laboratory.
Have any Government ever considered money an issue when it comes to advanced military technology? The answer is no, they have never considered this an impediment.
So why here and why now? The only answer is that TPTB have a decided that it must be so, as part of their overarching agenda!
In any real world this can only be considered to be the most ridiculous statement ever – if the IS FS military didn’t want more advanced technology then why create NAIS; Why decode the Helm Memory core – and how much did these cost?
This is far more misleading when you bring in economics – if an IS military industrial complex was able to create Clan comparable weapons how much more profit could be generated in comparison to making only advanced IS weapons – being realistic, with Clan tech time the profit by two, three ... five is a real possibility?
The entire premise of the IS is unable to manufacture Clan tech due to money does NOT hold water!
So accept TPTB version if you want, but I (personally) will not – in my universe (Technological Rating F – Hyper Advanced) in my games the IS has access to everything the Clans had stored when Huntress fell to the SLDF and began manufacturing a year or more after this!
Consider the Clan invasion – exact numbers of soldiers were provided – and yet there is NO after action depletion report – there are NO reports concerning resupply – there are NO reports about units being reinforced BY Sibkos …. (and remember the Clan Home Worlds are 6 months away). The war (as written) however just continually demonstrates that the Clans remain at a 100% fighting strength whist the Invasion was fought from their Initial Invasion to Tukayyid where the majority of Clans suffered losses. And yet we are still expected to believe they retain a very high level of combat fighting efficiency?
The story is left murky … why, because if these reports were maintained the Clans ability to prosecute the war would show they were incapable of continuing the war – their warrior’s numbers are depleting at a too rapid rate to be replaced by warriors that are being produced by a Sibko system …
TPTB have motive to keep the Clan in the IS – they wanted to ensure the problem of the FC could never occur again – and this is the overarching goal – and this is what we see in 3150 maps – Clan empires to the scale of that of any Great IS House – and yet we are still expected to believe the people of the IS will accept a Totalitarian Government and a Caste driven society that will restrict their access to education, restrict their access to freedom of movement, restrict their access to religion, will restrict their access to freedom of thought, will restrict their access to self determination … as per the quote …
How does the Clans obtain these empires .... the removal of economics (money), that with afflicts the IS Great Houses from expanding their military? .... However if this statement is made this means that people working in factories are no longer receiving a wage ... they are now slaves to the Clans Warrior Caste.
So is this what is being suggested?
Quote:
The clans ideas were changing, which is how they went to making kingdoms/empires.
In a changing Clan empire (circa 3150) where might makes right cannot we say that both the Falcons and the Wolves have become more like the Jaguars of the early invasion?
And how did this Clan treat its Non Warrior caste members … the word slaves comes to mind (TRO 3050 page 6) … so how can the people accept this … how can they accept the idea of Castes … how can they accept the idea of fostering …. How can they accept a complete loss to their personal liberty and freedoms that they once had under their former House Government?
And yet the real question should be how can TPTB allow such an entity with our game – how can the hold up such an organization as a great power to be admired by those who play the game … these groups are the enemy and they should be treated as such!
Sorry but again this premise does not in any way hold water – it cannot (again in my opinion) be considered realistic!
I ( Me and my personal view only) cannot and will not accept this false premise as propagated.
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but they did state the SL clans refused to give out the clan tech.
Politically … would any member of the new SLDF accept this from a new member when they are at war with the same society they have decided to defect from?
Again …. I ( Me and my personal view only) cannot and will not accept this premise as propagated.
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the implication is the range and power of the clan weapons kept numbers from being used effectively.
Charge of the Light Brigade comes to mind here at Balaclava … didn’t work then, and will not work in the future when you have hundreds of vehicles advancing at flank speed upon a small group of Clan Omnis and elementals (and even if they did have air support at the same time). Yes the IS forces would have been badly damaged but the Clan forces would be dead – there is no way the clans could sustain a war of attrition – the IS on the other hand could!
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The lack of jumpships
Again the Clan Invasion is only about one quarter to one half the size of the Fourth Succession War – so how can there be a lack of Jump-Ships?
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hitting worlds they knew the clans were on as a dangerous situation.
And when is anything not a “dangerous situation” in any war?
Again where is the idea of “Calculated risk”, the way the Clan Invasion is written is from the point of view of a Leadership too scared of their own shadows to effectively get anything done … pitiful writing – pitiful direction … put Katherine in charge!
Again Have at look at the risks taken by every side in WW2 to win the war – in comparison the conduct of war between the shows a complete lack of understanding of waging war ….
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They knew when jumpships and non capital weapon carrying dropships met with a warship, surrender or dying was the only real outcome.
The clans have used a warship now twice on IS planets …
The above statement states that if you send a relief force and it is met by a warship it will be destroyed …
And yet the state will not allow for big wing aerospace fighter attack groups (armed with nukes) from each IS Navy’s own fleet of support fighters / 'Mech support fighters and they cannot be allowed to be used them to protect these relief force fleets …. because it is just "too dangerous"! ….
Where is your duty of care to your forces … show me any convoy in any modern war that did not have a screening force to protect it ….
Again we see a situation that no Navy commander would ever contemplate!
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Even the large wings would only work if you were far enough from the warship that they didn't wipe you out before you could launch them.
Really … again look at the rules … large Naval Weapons CANNOT target aerospace fighters – only Drop-Ship and above!
So that leaves the Clans own aerospace fighters as well as their AA batteries to stop any IS fighter attack …. and all I need is one hit by one Nuclear missile (as the rules, as given, to what a nuclear explosion is it suggests it is little more than a HE explosive and not a nuclear explosion) would kill any Warship class … and yet we can’t have that in the game!
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… the whole concept of holding back the entire clans to hit with 4 initially? If that isn't nerfing them, then what would be?
Clan Tradition – Batchall
Clan Tradition – Ratial superiority
Very bad Beta testing also comes to mind …rushing the game into production before anything could really be thought out!
I would also like to ask the IS unit numbers as supplied in the 20 year update … and then further down in history how many units does the IS have? If this isn’t ‘nerfing’ the IS then what would it be?
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The deep realms with Victor and Omi wouldn't happen in a real situation.
We are the dreamers and we can make the dreams a reality ….
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Victor or someone involved in taking down Katherine would have killed her to avoid her getting her power back. Phelan would have done so, if no one else.
Here I disagree … Katherine 'IS THE BEST' leader for the FC during this time period. Victor is military, he is not and has never been a politician who can spin webs within webs to ensnare her enemies … as a leader Victor is about as useful as a wet paper bag when he is outside his ‘Mech’s cockpit and not directing military forces.
Katherine on the other-hand is a politician she can direct the realm forward, she can utilize her spy agencies to the best possible outcome, she would allow kidnapping of Clan non warrior caste members, she would have provided her Huntress forces with a ‘shopping list’ to bring home (including people) – she is highly intelligent, sneaky and devious and un-remorseful – everything you want in an IS leader circa 3050.
The FC would have been far better off if rather than killing off her mother (which made no sense whatsoever) she killed off her brother Victor (and makes sense) – either physically or politically so that he could not inherit the throne. As for her remaining siblings – ever one of them fell very far from the tree – they were all worthless rulers, only Katherine showed the true Steiner / Davion ability.
As for Phelan - Katherine would order the Kell Hounds (His Father) plus others to drag him to hell if he attempted anything. So what would the Kell Hounds do, remain loyal or go rogue?
This would make for a great story!
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There is no way Vlad would have even gotten to them to take Katherine.
Agree … in all reality if a Falcon Vs. Wolf war did ensure Katherine would have invaded at the end … declared a trial of absorption … and made both Clan’s Touman into part of the FC military … Vlad would have become her bondsman or dead … either way it would work for her.
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And fighting in the deep periphery would be foolish.
Really? … Show me a war where one side or the other doesn’t send forces out to destroy the other’s supply lines!
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A full strike on the clans home worlds would be done.
Yes … but it should have taken a century of continual war – the final invasion should have been in 3150.
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The slow building and fighting over areas is stupid in this case. It isn't like the IS had many uses for those worlds at this time, as it was all about their borders in the IS.
No … ask the question when the new Star League is formed what is the remit they gave the SLDF? What is the SLDF’s original political / military exit strategy with the Clans? …. Politically it is the removal of all (except when some defect) Clans from every IS world, it is making every IS person free from the Clan’s Tyrannical rule by imposing their Caste System on these people (effectively making them slaves).
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Wasting time, money, and troops here would be pointless.
Hardly …. Then why have wolf packs in both WW1 and WW2 – why have air-forces bombing industries and cities in WW1 and WW2 – why send supply ships full of armaments and food to both England and Russia in WW1 and WW2?
What about the idea of Army Logistician (Supply Line Warfare)?
Also how much fun would this scenario be for the game? How many gaming groups would jump at the chance of playing a game in the deep periphery against the Clans – hunting down supply bases – taking on Clan convoys – attacking Clan Warships with fighters / any other strategy available (such as the BlackStar in Babylon 5) – capturing the clans major resupply space station – I would also like to ask why would you provide all this information about all these Clan's periphery sites if you don’t want it fought over in the future – why create an area of space if you don’t want to send troops out there to fight over it?
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but I do see why they can't have the armies of the IS running around with clan tech. It destroys the actual game play.
Question … when everyone was fighting in the era’s before the clans invasion (4th Succession War / war of 3039 etc.) and when everyone had a similar military technology base, did it destroy the actual game play or was the era more fun to play in than it is now where the Clans / IS have two vastly different technologies that has remained in place for 100 years?
How many plays prefer to play in this era (4th SW / war of 3039), rather than that of any other era?
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Mercs would only acquire it on the battle fields. They would NOT be able to buy it.
Initially yes, this would be the case, as House units would be purchasing everything first. However over time this would change to a no – they will be able to purchase when the technology has become more prevalent throughout the IS.
It is like countries today … first the super power makes it for their military only … then over time, as new models are being made the older models are being sold to countries aligned to that super power. Same here, first House units … then over time mercenaries aligned to a House … and last of all mercenaries who have no alignment to a House.
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The CC getting the SL tech from the MAC is a prime example why they would not be able to buy it.
No … CC (if they exist in your game – mine they are dead and buried during the early years of the Clan Invasion) getting SL / Clan tech would come through being members of the Star League and the SLDF – if they gave it to MAC (also dead and buried) that is their leader’s decision.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/23/20 10:11 PM)
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ghostrider
01/24/20 03:25 AM
66.74.60.165
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As pointed out before. Having everything in writing, means there could be no deviation from it. So you could not come in an take out a trinary of clan mechs, as it was not written that way in the story. Without the word for word history of how things go, it gives the players a chance to do something. Part of your defense for the alt. Now you want an iron clad story telling you everything that happens.
I do agree with the point of the lack of casualty reports on the invading clans. You know they lost troops, but how many does make a difference in further combats.
I see where part of the misinformation comes from the idea that the units would speed directly into the jaws of the clans. They didn't do this fighting the IS forces during the succession wars, unless they had no choice. Fighting the clans was a complete unknow. They would have fought them how they knew to fight other houses. LRMs in the back, though finding out the hard way that the clans outranged them. Things like the Demolisher would run at them as quick as they can, using what cover is available. As each battle is different, I can only summarize this. The clans had the power to take out a lot of units before they got within IS weapons range. And if using recovered SL weapons, like the pulse lasers, it was even worse then normal. But again. It seems like the clans have full cloaking devices or transporters that allow them to pop out of thin air.
One more point. Having a regiment or 5 on a world doesn't mean even a battalion is together in a fight. The bs of saying they all sit in one base is just that. Bs.
Calculated Risk... I guess the calculations for the counter assault was so horrible, they decided to save their equipment and not go. Or do you mean no matter the risk, you have to go? It is sounding a lot like that.
Funny that NOW you are worried about your troops getting slaughtered. In the past, it was suggested they needed to strike out at the enemy, even though they couldn't do much but provide target practice for the enemy. And the use of a warship was the commanders decision, not the whole high command. The second 'use' was a ploy to get the world to surrender. Obviously the Falcon command didn't like that use, as they didn't try it again.
You missed the point with
Even the large wings would only work if you were far enough from the warship that they didn't wipe you out before you could launch them.
Really … again look at the rules … large Naval Weapons CANNOT target aerospace fighters – only Drop-Ship and above!
Where it says wipe you out before you can launch them. That means getting the fighters out of the dropship before it blows up. Not sure how that was missed. Even fighters that are ready still die when the dropship blows up from combat damage. How many can you launch if you are within weapons range after a jump?
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ghostrider
01/24/20 03:48 AM
66.74.60.165
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The leader that will destroy entire units because they didn't salute good enough is the better ruler?
And not sure how Katherine could command the Kell Hounds to take out Phelan when she is dead. Simple pull the pistol from the holster and done. Even just taking her into custody and having a weapons malfunction would be more likely the leaving her alive. Phelan's mother was killed, and his father maimed from a bomb she used to remove a potential rival. He stated to Victor that had he thought Victor was the one to send the assassin, he would have killed him. He might be clan now, but born and raised in the IS. And that isn't including others that suffered from her manic actions.
There is a difference between fighting battles from chance encounters to building a new realm in the deep periphery. Only things that might be done is ammo dumps and such. Not a full scale city with factories and such. You get to the clan home worlds and fight, or they hit you in the IS. This succession war style fight to get to either side is garbage.
Not sure why you think a full strike on the clan home worlds would last a century. There is not second chance here. You do or die. Maybe hunting down those that ran, but it isn't likely there would be many. Dying is preferred over losing to the IS.
As stated in another thread. Clan tech causes fights to end quickly. A lot of time, tactics aren't as useful like they are with low tech. One mistake and you die. Hell, even a bad(good) roll could do that before you even get close in. It is fun to do so once in a while, but for the entire cosmos to become something that you have to hide until you are ready to kick a unit isn't going to happen. The spamming of pulse/TC or streak packs would be all that people would play. As said. It is fun once or twice, but gets old quickly.
The example of the MAC supplying the CC with advanced tech was not about the alt. It was used to show why the tech would not be sold to mercs. It would definitely be a major boost to their bank accounts to buy it, and sell it to the enemy, which might well be your employer tomarrow. Tens of millions of c-bills for getting them the tech. Yeah. More then a few mercs would do it. Not all, but enough to make sure it would stay in house hands.
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Requiem
01/24/20 08:02 AM
1.158.235.15
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Having everything in writing, means there could be no deviation from it.
So the back-story cannot ever change no matter what?
So what is the point of even playing the game if you can never ever affect the IS history – might as well never play a game if it is all predestined to go the way of the Canon History. And this is the real problem …. there is no flexibility whatsoever with many of the players – why even have books like “The Galtor Campaign” if it can only have one outcome?
Boring …… this is why the alt. must exist so that your group can rise up and effect the history, be the pebble that starts the avalanche … create your own destiny within your own IS ….excitement and fun!
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Now you want an iron clad story telling you everything that happens.
No …. Just a believable story would be appreciated ….
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I do agree with the point of the lack of casualty reports on the invading clans. You know they lost troops, but how many does make a difference in further combats.
Yes a very big difference …
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They didn't do this fighting the IS forces during the succession wars, unless they had no choice.
… and do they have a choice with the clans, given their “incredible” fighting ability? And the stories of the Clans creating slaves of their captured people / concentration camps / what was written about them within the 1st Sommerset Strikers Book / TRO 3050 page 6 …
So no … there is no real choice … war to the death of one or the other!
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Fighting the clans was a complete unknown. They would have fought them how they knew to fight other houses.
For the first battle … yes …. From the second battle no … this is why you have after action reports from all surviving people / gun camera images … it is also why you have intelligence unit within the military.
And this is why, when you capture a clansman, they are interrogated – refer 1st Sommerset Strikers when the captured a Jade Falcon Warrior as an example …
So, over time the complete unknown becomes the known ….
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LRMs in the back, though finding out the hard way that the clans outranged them.
Clan LRM – Max. Range 21
Savannah Master – Flank MP: 20
Harasser – Flank MP: 15
J Edgar – Flank MP: 17
Pegasus – Flank MP: 12
Saladin – Flank MP: 12 (AC 20)
Saracen – Flank MP: 12
Goblin – Flank MP: 6
Mechbuster – Max thrust: 8
Bulldog – Flank MP: 6
Demolisher – Flank MP: 5
Schrek PPC Carrier – Flank MP: 5
Range only becomes an issue with regards to heavy / assault tracked – hover on mass, for example the Saracen with Mechbuster support how long do you think a trinary will last?
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But again. It seems like the clans have full cloaking devices or transporters that allow them to pop out of thin air.
How droll …. But in reality they just fly in (refer anime Knight’s and Magic).
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One more point. Having a regiment or 5 on a world doesn't mean even a battalion is together in a fight. The bs of saying they all sit in one base is just that. Bs.
Isn’t this dependent upon ‘whomever’ the Commanding Officer is as well as the orders they have received from HQ based upon the overall battle plan?
So saying they are not all together could be correct or it might not be – they could be in divisions, regiments or companies depending upon the overarching strategy designed by HQ.
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Calculated Risk
Definition: A chance that is taken after careful estimation of the possible outcomes – when the possible gain is worth more than what will be lost if the action fails. The expression dates back to World War 1. Military leaders would estimate the chance that a military action would have of failure. Then, they would weigh it against the possible rewards if the mission were successful.
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it was suggested they needed to strike out at the enemy, even though they couldn't do much but provide target practice for the enemy.
An opinion I do not share.
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warships
Again, how did the leaders of the IS understand what the clans hierarchy were trying to say when they obliterated an entire civilian city and then threatened to do it again with a warship by two different Clans in to different sectors?
What were the IS rulers to think when this occurred?
Do we need the hunting dog and Ouija board again to understand the Clans intentions?
So what is a ruler to do? How do they protect their people from the biggest gun in the war?
Go into a meditative trance and just wish it away?
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Where it says wipe you out before you can launch them. That means getting the fighters out of the dropship before it blows up.
You do realize this is just semantics (again!) …. and cannot be guaranteed to happen 100% of the time!
How many can you launch if you are outside weapons range after a jump … or how about you jumped in before the warship jumped in and are ‘lying doggo’ until the excitement starts? How about all of them….
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The leader that will destroy entire units because they didn't salute good enough is the better ruler?
Really? …. This is a very low opinion of Katherine
Her image was extremely well presented / crafted to both the Lyrans and the Suns – she was beloved by both relams, until she took the Lyran half away …so what if this never occurred …
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Phelan's mother was killed, and his father maimed from a bomb she used to remove a potential rival.
and as stated above – what if she doesn’t kill her mother so Phelan’s mother is alive and his father is unhurt (as in all reality her mother is not an impediment to her eventual rule of the FC only Victor is) - so she sends her assassin to kill Victor whilst at the same time she creates a story within the media that will make it impossible for him to take the throne (she proves that Victor has sired a child with Omika!). There goes the Draconis March, maybe even the Capellan Mach as well as Skye, as well as many Lords within both great states will go nuts over this … there will be no coming back from this, Katherine will be the next ruler of the FC … and Victor will be consigned to playing Mech Warrior (if the assassin fails) … and that will not be the last one Omika’s father / the Black Dragon Society will send assassins his way as well.
PS. Phellan’s father is a peer of the realm – as such she can order him to war as one of her Lords – if he refuses it is automatically treason – and we all know the penalty for that!
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And that isn't including others that suffered from her manic actions.
How many could prove this? Even Victor’s Cannon team were only just able to prove it … though it is extenuating evidence there is no smoking gun ever found that positively links her to her mother’s death within the canon history. So again it is extremely hard to believe anyone will be able to prove her bloody- iron-claws, wrapped in velvet, are ever to be blamed for individuals problems. She is just way too good as a politician ….
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There is a difference between fighting battles from chance encounters to building a new realm in the deep periphery
Correct, but when you have a hundred years to build your realm it really is not that difficult.
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Not sure why you think a full strike on the clan home worlds would last a century.
Please re-read again … it would take a century for the IS to battle the Clans from the IS into the deep periphery and from there all the way back to the Clan Home Worlds ….
Then in One centuries time D-Day into the Clan Home worlds as the IS begins its invasion with whatever Clans are remaining at the end.
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As stated in another thread. Clan tech causes fights to end quickly.
So what? … just create a new armor so that it doesn’t, how hard is that to fix?
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The example of the MAC supplying the CC with advanced tech was not about the alt. It was used to show why the tech would not be sold to mercs. It would definitely be a major boost to their bank accounts to buy it, and sell it to the enemy, which might well be your employer tomorrow. Tens of millions of c-bills for getting them the tech. Yeah. More then a few mercs would do it. Not all, but enough to make sure it would stay in house hands.
What each House Lord does with their own advanced weapons is their business.
Mercenaries can thus steel if if they want or they may be even offered it by a House Lord to retain their services or they could go into Clan space and get it from them.
There are other ways of getting your Merc unit advanced weapons.
It could even have come standard with that new ‘Mech you purchased from the factory store …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/24/20 01:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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Having everything written down, means the main story can not be changed, though if you want to keep to canon, some things can not be changed. You can not take out Sun Tzu in a raid. You can not kill Victor in a mech fight. Now if you want to get away from canon, then you can do like you wanted to in the alt. The issue with that is saying it is the only way the game should have gone. It isn't.
Now there is the problem. After battle reports weren't getting to the high command. Most units were destroyed during the first few battles. As written in a few place, the high commands of both the LC and DC didn't know what was really going on, much less information on how they fight. Even video footage of the units was scarce for a while. So no. They could not have been doing much in counter tactics until they got a better view of what was going on. And remember. Hanse said he did not realize the DC was hit so hard. So the instant full intel isn't there for known rivals, why would a brand new entry have anything close to that? It was the Dragoon meeting that gave them the best information, though some were already learning how to fight them. Victor's rescue was a major turning point, but not the only one.
Context seems to be an issue here. LRM carrier in the back is for the IS units to set up for combat. They didn't have access to the clans AC2, ERLL, ERPPC, and Gauss Rifles weren't really used for vehicles. The Alacorn being the main exception. So range did have a major effect against those that did not understand they were not safe. The speeds of the hovers would allow them to get in close, but it wouldn't stop them from being hit. Given the terrain restrictions to vehicles, I don't see anything but a mainly open flat terrain allowing them to rush a full regiment into even a single map sheet. 2 allied vehicles per hex max tends to do that.
So playing within the rules, is where issues really start forming.
Most orders is to guard the world. That didn't change much even with the clans coming in. You could win one battle and still lose the world if you neglected the other locations. And fighting in the capital would be foolish in the least. Depending on the world itself, multiple RCTs wouldn't cut it.
So having 10000 mechs might well allow 1000 mechs to slowly destroy your units as they don't have to really garrison the land. So facing 500 of your units with the 1000 comes to mind. Granted the clans didn't normally attack that way.
What is the definition of Calculated Risk have to do with the fact that it was decided the risk of hitting the enemy was greater then any reward could have been? The entire succession wars was fought with the idea of diversion being a very potent weapon. Draw out the defenders, then hit the areas they just came from with a second force. Without knowing better, how would you know the clans didn't do this? Don't try the Meeting excuse here. The IS did much better after that. This is before that meeting.
The actions of a single commander, which they didn't use the ship before or afterwards says someone wasn't following orders. As they could have just taken out bases from orbit and didn't, it was thought that the clans were not using those ships for ground combat. As they were not used to subdue worlds with just being there, it says those events were not standard at all. The removal of the Saber Cat says a lot about the one time use of it. But with that, why didn't world surrender when the warships showed up in their system? You know what they did, and you would worry they would do it to you if you resisted. As you said. The IS didn't know it wasn't going to be used over and over again.
Yet to assume Katherine didn't order units to take out their own would be missing how she operated. I would bet she did order Morgan to kill Phelan more then once. And the fact he sided with Victor already meant treason against her. But then she took the throne from him, and used forced to make sure he wouldn't get it back. If she was a real leader, she would have given him the throne then blackmailed him into doing things her way, and allowing him to take the blame for bad ideas. But being narcisistic, she had to be the one in front of the cameras. To prevent her people from dying in a civil war would be a great way to gain power, and make Victor her puppet. But then, that would mean having to look past the 'perfect' solution that was already in place in the alt.
And you are wrong that there was no smoking gun to link Katherine to the assassination. They caught the assassin and got the information from him. They couldn't use it in the public's eye, as they didn't kill or even try the assassin. They used the assassin later on.
Again. Why waste resources you need to rebuild back home on an area few, if any, want to be in? Only those fleeing from the government would think a lack of any services was a good thing. Except for military outposts, there would not be a big push for anything outside of a pair of jumps from the border. So no. A deep periphery realm would not be the case.
Might was well do what a lot of games do. Just add some zeros to the damage and armor protection, so doing 1000 SDC yet not affecting 1 MDC armor comes about. Might was well play those games that you can do 1 million points of damage on a unit that has 200 million armor.
Not saying things shouldn't evolve, but the lack of armor advances shows that wasn't in the picture. The ferrous armor and even modular armor doesn't really solve much. The limits of what can be placed on the actual mech, is the issue. Ferrous armor in lighter then normal armor, as it provides more damage resistance then normal armor. Yet, you can not put more armor points on a location with it? Why does this sound odd? Hardened armor is the only real way to gain more protection, yet it is limited as well.
Vehicles don't have a max armor per location. Yet another reason why vehicles have to be nerfed to allow mech to be the kings on the field.
A house could very well have a few different companies doing business around the IS to acquire supplies. Mercs tend to be more likely to use those companies or even go thru black market dealers. Criminals may well deal with the merc long before they deal with another house. I do think some of the 'permanent' mercs might get a deal to buy the new tech, but for the most part, it would not be available, if you are really concerned about it getting to an enemy.
The strike on the clans homeworlds would only bog down after the IS showed up and started destroying their forces. There would be no reason, other then maybe a traitor informing them, the IS was on it's way. And with the initial attack, the IS would have local superiority, and maybe even gaining the factories the clans use to keep in new units and supplies. Losing them would put the clans in a very bad situation. From the sounds of it, they don't have factories across clan space, but focused on specific worlds. They 'buy' from those manufacturers, but this may be inaccurate. Each world or even clan on the world, might have their own facilities.
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Requiem
01/24/20 05:53 PM
1.158.235.15
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…the main story can not be changed ….you can not take out Sun Tzu in a raid. You can not kill Victor in a mech fight …if you want to get away from canon, then you can do like you wanted to in the alt …. The issue with that is saying it is the only way the game should have gone. It isn't..
And here I thought I kept on saying that people should have the freedom to make up their own minds as to what they wanted in a game!
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Now there is the problem. After battle reports weren't getting to the high command.
Really? …. Then when did information become available?... Dragoons Conference, or before that? ….
As stated previously first wave … no real info., however from there on out information came trickling in until a complete picture was formed … and then we get Wolcott (October 3050) where the future Coordinator Hohiro Kurita won against the Jaguars, and how did he win? … he used their own bidding practices against them … and how did he get this information about their bidding practices, and about the fighting style, and about their sensors ….
So How did he know how to …
Lie about the quality of troops on the planet – stating they were green troops – rather they were the elite Genyosha Regiments;
He took the terrain advantage of fighting in the planet’s wooded marshes;
He baffled their sensors by putting chaff strips upon the trees in the wooden marshes;
The only way he could come up with this is if he had information from previous battles to draw upon to set his trap.
I would also like to ask why the lessons learnt upon Wolcott were never adhered to from then on?
Someone favoring their pet Clans again?
So no, the information was there!
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They didn't have access to the clans AC2, ERLL, ERPPC, and Gauss Rifles weren't really used for vehicles. The Alacorn being the main exception. So range did have a major effect against those that did not understand they were not safe.
Context problem - Even with these weapons – if a cavalry charge is called for how many turns will it take for a saladin battalion / regiment to close the gap to short and then surround the Clan Mechs (and into their rear) with mass numbers and kill them off with mass AC20 rounds? So yes, they would get hit but the speed of hovers would allow how many to get into their rear? Start with Trinary (15) Vs reinforced Battalion (52) – remember to choose a terrain that limits the range of the Clans weapons – add in sensor baffling chaff strips / smoke rounds and also allow the IS to have access to artillery for the first couple of rounds as they close in for the kill, plus conventional fighters / bombers / VTOL craft in support – there could also be infantry in there as well (Jump commando + SRM Infero) – depending on if this was a trap or just a target of opportunity.
Win / Loss – when one side or the other is completely destroyed.
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Most orders is to guard the world.
Yes, but how they do that is up the commander on the ground. (Read Sun Tzu the art of war)
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What is the definition of Calculated Risk have to do with the fact that it was decided the risk of hitting the enemy was greater then any reward could have been?
Again semantics …. your opinion …. Mine are vastly different – timidity in the face of the enemy will not be tolerated (Anzio Beach January 22, 1944)
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As you said. The IS didn't know it (warships) wasn't going to be used over and over again.
Correct – so what do you do next? – hold hands and sing Kumbaya – or do you actually put in place a plan to deal with them, as has any military allowed the enemy such free reign with a weapon of such size, scope and tactical advantage?
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Katherine
The only time she ordered her own units to take out renegade units was during the Civil War – so if there wasn’t a civil war this point becomes moot!
Yes she would order Morgan to bring to heal / kill Phelan if he posed (engaged in combat against FC military) a threat to the Federated Commonwealth – and it would be Morgan’s duty to follow it through! In attacking a FC force Phellan has chosen his side and has gone rogue …
PS – your confusing Canon history with the assumptions I put in place above – so, again – Katherine didn’t kill her mother – Phelan’s Mother and Father are unhurt – Katherine attacked Victor, usurped his throne by proving he was not worthy of holding it (and in such a way that her finger prints are not on the murder weapon)
Also Victor’s personality would never allow him to be a puppet – plus in the high stakes game of the IS nobility, is the same as that of the Italian era of the Borgias (Renaissance) – better to just kill him off!
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They caught the assassin and got the information from him.
Really? How many assassins would know who their employer are? … air gapped once more …Ryan Steiner hired him ….
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A deep periphery realm would not be the case.
The California gold rush .. the Black Hills Gold Rush .. The Australian Gold Rush … The Canadian Gold Rush ...
Money and the prospect of a better life will always drive people to establish new colonies. Or why else did the people of Terra ever leave and form the IS?
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damage and armor protection
Again we are the engineers and we can establish new materials in the game – just include a rounding up factor to all armor upon every vehicle and just leave the damage on the weapons as is. Problem solved.
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The strike on the clans home-worlds would only bog down after the IS showed up and started destroying their forces.
And yet no-one knows what forces could be on the Clan Home Worlds or the state of the Clan Home Worlds 100 years into the future.
So this is just personal opinion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/24/20 11:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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And here I thought I kept on saying that people should have the freedom to make up their own minds as to what they wanted in a game!
The stop saying canon is wrong and get completely away from it. The discussions always come down to suggesting an alternative, but always seem to come to my view is the only correct one. This isn't suggesting something different. This is demanding a game change to fit your needs and print it all out for everyone to play.
The solid facts, besides units were being lost, were mostly after the Dragoons meeting. They started putting together hunches with the little facts they had. That is part of how you do things in a real tactics game. You don't exactly know what the enemy has. If you think otherwise, then don't bother playing. Just roll a die and anything over zero means you win. There are a few that will suggest that is the reason for BV. But that isn't so much anything but a deathmatch style fight. A real campaign has unknowns, just like real life does. But then having everything written down, then suggesting the game doesn't allow you flexibility puts the argument in context. This is just to argue.
For the first battle … yes …. From the second battle no
As stated previously first wave
Ok. Where in the initial statement did it say first wave, cuz it shows first battle. A huge difference in time. It explains why a lot of the discussion is based on wrong information.
Context problems? I have yet to see many units have exactly what then need going into battle. A battalion of Saladins isn't likely to happen, and even then, the terrain would have to be open. Things like woods stops hovers dead. You can still shoot thru them, and then the stacking rule stops others. Hills will do the same thing. Now if you did have the units and open terrain, then yes. It would be easier. But there is also the issue of firing at objects. Even point blank range doesn't mean you are garenteed a hit.
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ghostrider
01/25/20 12:21 AM
66.74.60.165
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You have to know the attack was coming to even suggest pulling all your forces from around the world, and believing the enemy isn't going to drop somewhere else. IS history here. But again. Knowing the end result then trying to change the situation to avoid the results in the first place. How is the next battle in the U.K going to begin and end?
Wait. There is information to even suggest that. Yet you continue to make it sound like they knew the future. They didn't.
Do you not understand that a calculated risk could well prevent someone from doing something? Not only doing it but the end results if you fail need to be figured out. Much like using explosive fireworks, and thinking holding them until they launch and explode is a good risk. Any smart person would think about it and let it take off from the ground. It works both ways.
If I waste all my units and fail, then the thing I am protecting will be taken. More then not, those actions end up failing then succeeding.
I don't have a written answer to that, but it is very likely they were setting something up to deal with them. Time and resources being an issue. But then playing the instant units and unlimited resources tends to make you forget things like NOT HAVING the stuff right there. Or maybe having everything under the sun and alls you have to do is tell the enemy 'hold on a sec. I need to change out my units.' Doesn't work in reality.
Wow. Katherine never ordered an assassination against those that told her no? So her killing her mother was a mother's day present? Or sending teams against others in the FC to remove the thorns from her sides?
It seems this one knew it was Katherine, and I don't know how. Might be the security clearance he got would only come from Victor or Katherine, and as the payment was made by Katherine, well supposition was used. Victor knew he didn't order it, so who else?
Again. Saying canon is wrong then swapping back to alt when your argument is shut down.
You want the alt, fine. Leave it just the alt. Don't even try to say canon is wrong as the alt is the only way it has to be. It doesn't. There is no presentation in any of this.
I suppose you would argue that Star Wars, the original, was flawed as the developer purposefully made the exhaust port weakness to be exploited in the future, when the Rebel Alliance got ahold of the data. Only in Rogue One did we find this out. Someone should have seen that issue. But it is what the writer wanted.
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Requiem
01/25/20 04:58 AM
1.158.235.15
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They started putting together hunches with the little facts they had.
Please explain how the future Coordinator Hohiro Kurita’s ‘hunches’ were so accurate when dealing with the Jaguars upon Wolcott?
The conference on Outreach was held during the lull in the invasion in 3051.
So that rules out the Dragoons assisting the DCMS.
Thus wouldn’t the accuracy of his ‘hunches’ be based upon the only other logical source of information - intelligence reports supplied by his military intelligence unit?
And if it wasn’t from them then who else supplied the information upon which he based his strategy against the Jaguars? His spies – so this would mean they ‘acquired’ Clan personnel – and was he then supplied with their interrogation reports?
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Context problems?
Whether the information is received from 1st battle or the 2nd battle is both immaterial and pedantic – what is important is the information itself.
If a battalion of Saladins isn’t likely to happen then what is?
So does this mean that if I went out and bought a battalion of Saladins I won’t get them?
As for terrain there are other boards other than woods … plus the prohibited Unit on the Movement Cost Table really needs to be rethought (Battle of the Bulge coming through the Black Forest for the second time comes to mind) plus why can’t your infantry create dedicated tracks that allow all vehicle types through woods – they could have been established years in advance of the Clan invasion as a defensive measure against your rival House and are known only to the defenders. Sorry to say but the game’s “absolutes” are not so “absolute” as first thought!
Case in point as to why the Movement Cost Table really needs to be rethought – WiGE craft and Light woods – can I laugh now at this? As the water would need to be above the trees for this to work!.
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But there is also the issue of firing at objects. Even point blank range doesn't mean you are guaranteed a hit.
…. And it doesn’t mean a guaranteed a miss.
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You have to know the attack was coming to even suggest pulling all your forces from around the world, and believing the enemy isn't going to drop
Really? …. After the first one / two waves isn’t it a little predicable that they (The Clans) are moving in a straight line?
Also isn’t it at the discretion of the Military Commander on world as to how / and where the military is assigned?
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Do you not understand that a calculated risk could well prevent someone from doing something?
Yes … this is true. But remember - the opposite is also true at the same time. If I use my units and they succeed then what?
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Katherine never ordered an assassination against those that told her no?
A good leader would order assassinations (when warranted) … However, go back and re-read the books she was in, she used economics to force her Lords into submission by restricting / halting / or delaying Jump-Ship supply shipments for those worlds that relied on them. Once you understand who holds the whip the more likely they are to be compliant in the future.
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So her killing her mother was a mother's day present?
And for the third time, what if she didn’t kill her mother? What if she removed Victor and took the throne?
Why did Katherine need to Kill her mother? – she was not and would never be an impediment to her taking the throne if Victor died in combat against the Clans! (with a little help from Katherine’s assassin or from the media who totally destroyed his credibility with the Dukes of the FC – either would work for her!)
Remember the “Order of Succession” when it comes to the throne and who is next in line to become the ruler! HER!
As for Victor, he is totally unsuitable for being the ruler of an IS Realm – He makes for a good soldier and general, but other than that he is completely useless. Like many of the Leaders of the past he is too preoccupied with playing with his ‘Mechs than making his realm a better and more safer place to live for his people.
Katherine however understood the need of improving the state and the common people’s lives – as Napoleon once wrote, “It is with such baubles that I will rule them!”
Plus she was far more devious and would pose to be a far more dangerous rival for all the other IS Houses.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/25/20 01:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe the fact Hohiro was captured by the clans and talked with prisoners and possibly even guards to find out a few things? The fact he was in battle with them and was one of a small few that did get away to fight another day? Or maybe the easier reason. It is in the script. Anyone other then Hohiro would not have been taken seriously. Main characters have to come up with the saves, much like Star Trek and captain Kirk coming up with plans that Scotty couldn't figure out, even though Scotty was the main engineer of the ship.
Also, Theodore was the one to come up with the Wolcott plan.
It is very important to know when something was figured out. The initial attack had everyone wondering just who was doing this. Fighting them was far worse as not only the weapons were superior but the tactics were something the IS hadn't dealt with. The waves gave a little more time to actually get something going. A battle doesn't do much, especially when the defenders were basically wiped out, or couldn't get offworld to report in. That includes no access to the HPG network. No planned redevous with hidden assets.
Tracked vehicles can move thru light woods. Hovers can't. And tracks, or paths in woods is possible. They are considered roads.
You can buy a batt of Saladins, but it isn't likely at all they would be where they need to be.
And now suggesting they knew where battles would be, and had roads and such planned out decades in advance of the clan invasion. And the enemy seeing that set up, would still give you that advantage? Even with their ego, they want to kill you without taking damage, as that is also a sign that the enemy was better then you thought. Vlad being hit by Phelan in their initial contact comes to mind.
Which is stretching the game rules. Have a weapon to cover all arcs, but couldn't fire straight ahead of it? Really?
Military commanders have certain things they are require to follow. You have control over most things, but when a war hits, and you pull forces from cities, then those cities get hit because you did, win or lose, you will probably be courtmartialled. You still refuse to believe the IS ways of fighting prevents you from combining before you know where the enemy is committing their attack. And with the clans, you normally found out about the attack when they sent a challenge, IF they sent the challenge. You can not send a unit across thousands of mile when it only move 80 kph. And you don't have the transport to move an RCT into position in an hour or two notice.
The economics was used more often, but she did order people killed. And if you really think about it, delaying a shipment of medicine could very well kill people. Same with food. Could not will. And alls because the local leader said they weren't going to swear fealty to her. Victor was still in charge, with Katherine being the reagent until he got back. The fact she didn't relinquish it shows she was moving to become the dictator.
Do you realize you answered the question of why Katherine had to kill her mother? Melissa was still the first in line. Victor was second. And Melissa would NOT allow Katherine to seize the throne. So her dreams of rulership would never come about.
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Requiem
01/25/20 06:22 PM
1.158.235.15
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Theodore was the one to come up with the Wolcott plan.
Yes he was the one to come up with the plan …. So how did he do it?
Yes his son Hohiro did have battlefield experience with the Clans – and yes he would have talked about his experience with his father and Grand-Father. But this would not explain all of his actions upon Wolcott – so where did this information come from?
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Fighting them was far worse as not only the weapons were superior but the tactics were something the IS hadn't dealt with.
Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. – The US Marines are absolutely correct!
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Tracked vehicles can move thru light woods. Hovers can't. And tracks, or paths in woods is possible. They are considered roads.
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And now suggesting they knew where battles would be, and had roads and such planned out decades in advance of the clan invasion. And the enemy seeing that set up, would still give you that advantage? Even with their ego, they want to kill you without taking damage, as that is also a sign that the enemy was better then you thought.
Be prepared …
First, yes you can make an educated guess as to where the battle will be – read autobiographies;
Second, If the conifer camouflages the tracks would / could the clans even know they are there?
Third, Knowing where the trap is – that’s the first step in evading it!
Fourth, The Clan’s own ego can be made to work against them;
Fifth, The Clans are NOT better than you – by only having a limited military – this limited their ability whilst in the field and at the same time holding a world …
Sixth, TPTB still have not explained how a small number of Mechs and Infantry are expected to rule a world in the billions – Only a mass number of boots on the ground / police force can do this! - especially when partisan tactics can be used against them on a daily basis. And what happens when an entire world’s population decides to fight? … such as when they attempted to implement Fostering / the caste system as a means of improving the IS barbarians?
The game as written must explain this, silence is not an option!
By remaining silent it suggests that even TPTB do not understand what would happen next!
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You can buy a batt of Saladins, but it isn't likely at all they would be where they need to be.
Again … isn’t this at the discretion of the Commander on World!
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Vlad being hit by Phelan in their initial contact comes to mind.
First, didn’t Vlad cheat when he was attempting to earn his Blood-name? and if I remember correctly wasn’t this a fist fight as the elevator was raising them to the circle of equals?
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Military commanders have certain things they are require to follow. You have control over most things, but when a war hits, and you pull forces from cities, then those cities get hit because you did, win or lose, you will probably be courtmartialled.
The highest ranked officer on the battlefield will hold responsibility.
Second, it is a war crime to hit an open city.
Third, by removing his forces isn’t he attempting to fight the battle in an area that will cause the minimum amount of collateral damage to the planet?
Fourth, what is the key strategic points on the planet?
Fifth, what is the CO attempting to do – strategic maneuvering is not as simple as I must defend this, this and this! There could be a greater plan in place!
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You still refuse to believe the IS ways of fighting prevents you from combining before you know where the enemy is committing their attack.
Dividing your forces in the face of the enemy – General George A. Custer – 7th Cavalry Regiment – Battle of the Little Bighorn.
How did that work out?
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You can not send a unit across thousands of mile when it only move 80 kph.
How about transporting your forces via dropship?
You can ask to transfer the Battle to an isolated piece of land (that is also a massive trap).
I would also like to put in the following – the Clans were moving in a straight line and when the planets before you WERE ATTACKED you really did have a good idea that your planet could be next. So wouldn’t you start putting into place a pre-arranged plan from then onwards.
Also you have previous information as to the time between each individual attack wave / time it took for a Clan to conquer a world.
So yes you did have a good prediction as to when your planet could expect an invasion by each Clan.
Subtlety when it comes to each individual wave to wave / planet to planet can NOT be considered one of their strong points!
So rather than having an hour or two notice you shouldn’t you have a couple of months notice!
Or are you saying that an experienced General would only plan his/her defense once the enemy shows up – rather than implementing plans based upon the likelihood of being attacked – ie. There is a high likelihood of my planet being attacked by the Clans next – so, we will use plan Gamma (that was written up in advance and has been used to train the troops in advance) – so you then order them into position in advance of the coming attack – you also ensure your ground work is in place – traps such as pill boxes / minefields – surveillance equipment – putting your artillery in – medical MASH stations – Resupply / Rearmament / Field Repair Points have been put in place – evacuation points and routes have been established and all Drop-ships are in place – Let the civil population know of the possibility of an invasion – ensure the civilians have implemented their survival procedures – also ensure there has been established many armaments cashes for the civilians to continue on the fight (home guard goes partisan) in the event the regular forces must withdraw … as well as all the other plans are put in place …. Such as the evacuation of important people / technology / cultural artifacts etc.
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The economics was used more often, but she did order people killed.
Who and for what reason …. proof please ….
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delaying a shipment of medicine could very well kill people.
Not really, a delay is just that a delay … there is no proof people died, you just need to make the threat to get the point across.
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Victor was still in charge, with Katherine being the reagent until he got back. The fact she didn't relinquish it shows she was moving to become the dictator.
No, Yvonne was the Regent of the FS … she was Archon of the LA … so when Yvonne couldn’t cope she gave the regency and the FS to Katherine. If anyone is to be blamed it is Yvonne for being a pathetic leader.
As for not giving it back … Victor ABANDONED his throne to play Mech-warrior … once you assume the Throne you can no longer play General, you have a higher duty, you are thus required to relinquish your position with a military unit and take your place on the Throne on the Capitol World – directing your people, your economy and assigning the best people you have to run the war.
Case in point – did you see Hanse Davion jump in a Mech during the 4th Succession War or did you see him remaining on New Avalon together with his best and brightest people directing the war?
How many leaders throughout the IS’s history who run off to war within their ‘Mech end up dead and leave their realm worse off? Victor has a duty to his people and his realm – not only to make them more prosperous, but to increase healthcare / schooling etc, he has a duty to keep them safe, and this cannot be achieved in the Cockpit of a ‘Mech.
I would also like to add it is also his duty to find a wife and to ensure the line of succession continues (Children).
When Victor refused to give up his rank and his command of the 10th Lyran Guards and he ran off and played war this action proved he was an incompetent ruler.
Katherine was right to usurp him! His inattentiveness towards his realm showed he was incapable or ruling – incompetence is the charge I would level against him as a ruler.
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Do you realize you answered the question of why Katherine had to kill her mother? Melissa was still the first in line. Victor was second. And Melissa would NOT allow Katherine to seize the throne. So her dreams of ruler-ship would never come about.
And you do realize that Melissa offered to abdicate in Victor’s favor prior to this (and everyone within the family would have been informed of this so that they could discuss the consequences of such an act prior to making a decision), so this point becomes moot.
With the death of Victor (on the battlefield) would she (Melissa) not also offer to abdicate in favor of her eldest daughter also? (and if not then you kill her off!) Plus the image of the grieving family who also sacrificed their own on the Alter of War, the reluctant daughter and sister taking the Throne will play well to the media of the entire FC (Katherine’s favorite tactic) – thus ensuring a safe transition to her position as Ruler of the FC … the optics of this would be a sight to be seen!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/25/20 06:26 PM)
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ghostrider
01/25/20 07:05 PM
66.74.60.165
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Mistake one. Thinking the enemy will blindly stumble into a trap set for them.
Mistake two. Thinking the enemy doesn't have the ability to see the trap ahead of time.
Mistake three. Assuming the enemy will go after the target you think they will in the first place.
The clans were not after depots or factories, but the actual military. There would be no need to have a forest fight if the troops weren't there. The idea of taking a capital on a world is still valid, but the clans are more likely to drop directly on it, then approach while on the ground.
Still not understanding the invaders were not going to have the front line forces control the worlds they took, but to have the PGCs do it?
And it was wise of them not to get into the nasty side of things as this is supposed to be a pg style game. R or X ratings would be there with the full descriptions of slavery, or assassinations being forced into the play side of it. The back story is meant to encourage anger against the enemy. Not cause the player to act like that. It is supposed to be the players are rising above the dirty combat role. But again. If playing the role of an assassin is your idea of fun, it doesn't mean we need to have it rammed down our throats.
The Vlad/Phelan point was when Vlad faced off against the Kell Hounds in his Timber Wolf, and Phelan had the Wolfhound. Where Phelan thought a single large laser hit should rip internals up as there was no way in the IS that a mech could hold and fire all those weapons at once, without shutting down, and have armor to spare. Then he ejected. Vlad was pissed off Phelan even got a hit in. But more to the point, the writer said Vlad had a weapon covering all the approaches except straight up the middle. Every weapon on the Timber Wolf, in most configurations can it straight in front of the mech. Example of the writers not following the actual game rules.
The commander on the world? The military one, or the political one? Both would have arguments about what is their orders, and one or the other has to win out. It isn't always the one you want it to be. Most of both sides would err to protect as much as they could. I mean a simple 15 mechs should be taken out with a vehicle battalion. Even a reinforced company of mech should win. Oh yeah. They didn't know the invaders strengths, and by suggesting they had forces in place means the fortune tellers was wrong. The local forces would not win the battle.
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ghostrider
01/25/20 07:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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Again. You have to know the attack is coming. Something that seems to elude you. In the opening waves, the defenders only found out about the clans when they were in the process of attacking their troops. The soothe sayer concept doesn't work in Battle Tech like it does a magical fantasy game.
Also, most units on garrison duty do not have dropships grounded for the express purpose of moving the units around. And even with that, it takes a while to load them up. But I guess the next defense would be having them pre-loaded so they can be moved on a moments notice. Most on world battles tend to have the units move by land, unless it has oceans separating them.
While asking them to move the battle, just ask them to surrender. That is just as likely to happen.
First off, there is no straight lines to systems.
Now the big one. They did not head straight towards Terra. If that was true, then the invasion corridors would only have run thru the FRR and not expanded outwards. More then a few attacks went back towards the periphery to clear up the revolutions and forces missed/bypassed. Have you even read the books and seen the way the story was played out? A lot of your comments seem to question this.
Wow. Maybe the implementation of those battle plans is how the clans beat them? Hit a battalion at a time and not the entire regiment? Or that the implementation has forces scattered all around the world. I mean the Germans had to guard the entire African coast, not just Normandy. Or did they move all their units to cover just that area? That's right. History doesn't account into this when it is against the wishful path of things.
And there wasn't months before knowing where the clans were going. They didn't even know what fell or when for the most part.
Only advanced warning came from ships that were jumping when the invaders came in for a while. More the a few worlds didn't know the worlds near them had fallen before the clans were dropping on their heads. But again. That would mean actually reading the stories. Or maybe understanding what they meant..
So you will place all your units in space, as they can drop anywhere on the planet? Sorry. Normal infantry don't survive without air, and vehicles need to be sealed to be in a void, much less floating. Guess 3d tactics isn't a strong point.
All warrior leaders got back into the battle in the IS house histories when needed. That is how a lot of archons/princes died in the succession wars. The fact Victor gave the power to run the government and would resume upon coming back wasn't abandoning them. If he was abandoning them, he would have gotten back or stayed in clan space and said I abdicate. No where did that happen.
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ghostrider
01/25/20 07:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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Case in point – did you see Hanse Davion jump in a Mech during the 4th Succession War or did you see him remaining on New Avalon together with his best and brightest people directing the war?
Seriously? The fact he jumped into his Battlemaster and went after the bogus Death Commandos himself, alone, doesn't count?
Though he did learn from his brother's Ian's death. He didn't run off into the main fighting, as he had to deal with the Combine and other issues. Victor thought he had two solid people in position of power before heading off to the clans. And how many of the lords felt a sigh of relief when he was set to lead them, and not someone else?
I don't think Melissa would abdicate to Katherine. She would have taken over the throne until Victor got back. Katherine was not viewed as a real leader in the FS portion. Being raised in the FS portion, and having his father emphasize on military tradition may well have hurt his standing with the LC portion. If not for manipulation of the press, Katherine would never have taken the throne. And to point out, Katherine did meet with Vlad outside of known media. But then if that isn't a case of treason, then nothing would be.
And yet, he did allow his people to survive by removing the threat of the clans invading again, or at least the push towards Terra. Had the Civil war not happened, then the FC would have removed the Falcons and Wolves after the refusal war. Oh wait. That nerfed the IS so the clans could take over later in the story line. What garbage.
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Requiem
01/25/20 10:01 PM
1.158.235.15
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Mistake one. Thinking the enemy will blindly stumble into a trap set for them. Mistake two. Thinking the enemy doesn't have the ability to see the trap ahead of time. Mistake three. Assuming the enemy will go after the target you think they will in the first place. The clans were not after depots or factories, but the actual military. There would be no need to have a forest fight if the troops weren't there.
Mistake one – thinking the enemy WILL NOT stumble into a trap; The ability to survive a trap depends on your enemies unpreparedness.
Mistake two - thinking the enemy has the foresight to see a trap in advance; and
Mistake three – setting the right bait –As stated the Clans were after the military – so use yourself as the bait – egotistical and vain are but some of their individual characteristics.
Your opinion of the Clans is based upon propaganda and not actual fighting prowess when an IS force is properly prepared for an upcoming engagement. As stated previously attrition warfare is the bane of Clan warfare – their Sibkos DO NOT have the ability to engage in a protracted war, where as the IS can.
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Still not understanding the invaders were not going to have the front line forces control the worlds they took, but to have the PGCs do it?
Question when were PGCs allowed into the IS … post Tukayyid … so from the start of the invasion till then how did they control a single planet. Also what is the make-up of a PGC – how many warriors does each contain? Still not enough to control a world …. when you compare it to some that have infantry in the thousands and vehicles in the hundreds and conventional fighters also in the hundreds …
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And it was wise of them not to get into the nasty side of things as this is supposed to be a pg style game. R or X ratings would be there with the full descriptions of slavery, or assassinations being forced into the play side of it.
… and this is the Clan you want to fight for? This is who you believe should rule worlds? … if they are “the big bad enemy”, then aren’t the IS forces supposed to win in the end?
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If playing the role of an assassin is your idea of fun, it doesn't mean we need to have it rammed down our throats.
Where did I say that? …though there are assassins in the game and yes you can play them … one of the Battletech magazines has a good article about the Ninja Black Cats of the DC.
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The Vlad/Phelan point was when Vlad faced off against the Kell Hounds in his Timber Wolf, and Phelan had the Wolfhound.
First, Phelan’s ‘Mech has been extensively re-built by Clan Techs to Clan level technology.
Second, The GM RPGing this probably asked for explicit answers as to what each character was doing at the time – and yes a person can (in a ‘Mech) put the heads up display aiming dot to each torso side of the ‘Mech and not down the middle!
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The commander on the world? The military one, or the political one?
You would follow the “Chain of Command”, so is a political representative a part of the chain of command, can you show me where a World Ruler comes is in the Chain of Command as I am a little ‘fuzzy’ when it comes to this as I haven’t seen the rank of world lord within the rank structure.
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Oh yeah. They didn't know the invaders strengths, and by suggesting they had forces in place means the fortune tellers was wrong. The local forces would not win the battle.
Then please explain Wolcott – this is an example of how to win the question that should be asked is why more didn’t use the same tricks from then on out … TPTB playing favorites again?
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Again. You have to know the attack is coming. Something that seems to elude you. In the opening waves, the defenders only found out about the clans when they were in the process of attacking their troops.
Even within Wave One a Commander of any Military upon any world would have pre-arranged plans for the defense of the planet.
Even Taft realized the need for Military Preparedness …
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25106660?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
… to think otherwise is ludicrous.
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They did not head straight towards Terra. If that was true, then the invasion corridors would only have run thru the FRR and not expanded outwards.
Look at an invasion map … no, it looks like a straight line from their initial invasion entry point!
As for missed / bypassed – did these worlds have any military forces on them?
When they missed /bypassed why did they do it? Didn’t they go straight for the most prestigious military unit in front of them? So again put out the right bait and they will bite!
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Wow. Maybe the implementation of those battle plans is how the clans beat them? Hit a battalion at a time and not the entire regiment? Or that the implementation has forces scattered all around the world.
Levity and supposition …
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the Germans had to guard the entire African coast
Please re-read history of WW2. Africa was fought over by the Axis and the Allied forces … they never won it to guard it!
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Only advanced warning came from ships that were jumping when the invaders came in
Question: After centuries of almost constant war - when an invasion or a war starts would the defending House have in place a signal (via HPG) to be sent to their entire military – otherwise how else would each House’s military be prepared for the upcoming war? And how would each Houes’ Lord know that a war commenced ….
Same here, they are invaded – HPG Message sent out … House Lord knows … military knows …
All units put themselves on a war footing …
Military starts preparing for the oncoming war … military information begins being sent from the front line to GHQ … GHQ sends information to those units it deems necessary.
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The fact Victor gave the power to run the government and would resume upon coming back wasn't abandoning them.
There are different forms of abandonment (an absent parent comes to mind) … so what are the attributes of a good politician …
https://www.news24.com/MyNews24/The-Qualities-of-a-Good-Politician-in-a-Democratic-Society-20130831
- securing, protecting, promoting good governance, accountability and welfare of all citizens-the governed.;
- required to implement social reforms and policy measures that contribute to the general welfare of the populace;
- Good and dependable politicians are delight to serve the people and consider themselves as servants and people their paymasters. They represent the hopes, aspirations and the interests of every citizen in the state;
- A faithful and effective politician is trustworthy and reliable;
- a good politician is integrity and technical skills to handle those challenging assignments, fiscal matters, policies, plans, projects, ideas and initiative solutions to problems;
- A transparent politician is nearer to his people and meeting them to understand their problems; and
- Have to use your talents, skills, experiences, honesty, integrity, challenges and constraints with the positive effect that we can have in touching other human lives. Politician must leave his constituency better than before elected.
Does any of these points represent Victor’s characteristics?
Honestly the only time he is in government he starts a war with the FWL and the CC when he tries to swap the FWL’s Lords dying (and then dead) son for an imposter … how merciless and vial action was this?
At this stage he is showing that an imposition of being far more evil than that of his sister and all for his own personal political needs!
And the next time we see him in a political setting is at the First Whitting Conference – where he agrees to assist the DC by attacking the Jaguars only and he completely ignores his own (currently his Sister’s) people who are under the yoke of the Jade Falcons and the Wolves … if this doesn’t show him to be incompetent as a politician what does?
The rest of the time he is away with his army, so in any sensible government how is he being an effective ruler?
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The fact he jumped into his Battlemaster and went after the bogus Death Commandos himself, alone, doesn't count?
No it doesn’t, he saw someone attacking aon his Capitol and he did the only thing he could, so he set out to defend what was right in front of him. He didn’t go swanning around within the Draconis Combine or the Capellan Confederation war zone within his BattleMaster as Victor did during the Clan Invasion and onwards ….
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And how many of the lords felt a sigh of relief when he was set to lead them, and not someone else?
… and how many Lords and common people were praying that the Clans didn’t kill him whilst he was in his ‘Mech leading the Revenants.
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don't think Melissa would abdicate to Katherine. She would have taken over the throne until Victor got back.
… the above premise stated that Victor was dead (KIA) or the Lords of the FC refused to acknowledge him as a candidate for the Throne.
So Victor is not coming back from this he is either dead physically or politically.
So who is the next person to take the Throne? The rules of succession state it Katherine ….
Also her taking the throne is way before the canon event of her meeting Vlad – so in all probability she would never have met him.
I would also like to point out that Katherine (The ruler of a House) meeting Vlad (The ruler of a Clan) to form a military alliance against a common foe is not treason – it is what you would expect from a ruler. Otherwise both her Mother and Father as well as her Grandmother (on her mother’s side) would also be on a change of Treason when they decided to merge the two realms together.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/25/20 10:02 PM)
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ghostrider
01/25/20 11:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Wolcott solution only applies to worlds like it. And the clans have since then learned from that assault. Not many other worlds could come close to that.
And seeing the battlefield from orbit, gives you an idea of what is there. The clans dropped onto Wolcott thinking the DC wasn't deceiving them.
Now mistaking the clans to suggest every single one of them is the same is a mistake. The Wolves, and to a lesser extent the Ghost Bears were better set up. The Bears screwed up by not allowing the people enough freedoms.
Timing is off again. The PGCs came in long before Tukayidd was even offered.
Maybe you didn't really understand the entire Succession wars. ALL houses did bad things. All houses were the evil in the eyes of their neighbors. Even the FS had taken prisoners and treated them worse then slaves. IE, Melissa sending the FS troops out of the Terran March before Lyran troops were even dispatched, if you need something new. I don't deny they are extremely harsh, but again. It isn't the first time the 'enemy' was like that. Katherine did the same thing when she took over. Delaying stuff? Nice way of making people suffer for saying they don't like their current ruler. That's right. Katherine had the right to be the dictator, because she took over. Freedom gives you the right to say you don't like the government. It however, does not give you the right to start violence just because.
The constant push that the game needs to have assassins and such in it, suggests that is the play style you want. The only way it 'needs' to have them is in the back ground. Players should not be forced into doing so, though that is a paradox as Head Hunting is such a thing. The only 'right' reason presented is it is against enemy commanders. They should be aware of that. But if you want to get technically, declaring war is sending out your units to kill the enemy.
You really think the writer had play tested the fight with Vlad/Phelan?
Maybe the Duke of the March? Guess the archon ordered the Skye Uprising, or other revolts were ordered from the appropriate capital. Hanse much have ordered Michael Hasek to give information of the FS to the CC. And more then a few world leaders were political hacks that had no clue on how the military operates. Some didn't even bother with it.
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ghostrider
01/25/20 11:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Even a reinforced company of mech should win. Oh yeah. They didn't know the invaders strengths, and by suggesting they had forces in place means the fortune tellers was wrong. The local forces would not win the battle.
Ok. Where do you get Wolcott from this statement? This was a common misconception the forces had when dealing with the clans. One for one, the clans were that much better. Where in normal fights with other IS nations, a 2 on one advantage tended to go with the person with 2 units to the enemies one. When dealing with the clans, this turned out to be a deadly mistake. So expecting your battalion to take out a trinary of omni proved to be the wrong way to think. So losing units in chunks meant over all your superior numbers didn't do a lot.
Still not getting a clue on this? Pre arranged plans were set up against the IS forces. Spreading out your units so a single strike can't kill them all, and knowing their target was needed. After the leaders got together and learned the clans ways, this changed. The thing is, so did clan tactics. They avoided the large garrisons, only to hit it once they had no supplies coming in. Oh wait. They did that?
And all the planning does nothing when the first time you know of the invader is when they are firing on the units themselves? Precognition isn't something the game has in it. So you want to add that in again?
And you should go look at the way things are set out in the game universe. The RCT's were even split to cover multiple locations, which is how Pirates and such can raid a heavily guarded world. You might have 108 mech on a planet, but how many are guarding this mine, or that water source? A single country on Terra would be a night mare to guard. Just as you keep saying about the clans garrisoning the worlds they took. Now. How many forces do you use to guard the ones you got. Gonna be over an hour to get any ground forces there, as they will NOT be sitting on dropships. And non mech units will take even longer to deploy, once the dropship is grounded.
The entire list has the same answer for Katherine. It wasn't for the people, but for her. Victor used the excuse to stop the enemy from bothering them again. Katherine did it to expand her power, then would have caused all realms to fight the FC, with some of the FC going into a civil war at that point. Had she been voted to the first lord position, this would be the outcome.
Timing yet again. Having a contingency in place and having Comstar block all outgoing transmissions seems to have Comstar winning that one. The black boxes were NOT sent out to every commander and planet. No one figured Comstar would stop sending in unimportant worlds. Then it got to the important ones, and they had figured out Comstar was enforcing a black out. so again. How do you send out a message before you know the enemy is there?
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ghostrider
01/26/20 12:01 AM
66.74.60.165
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Merciless to whom? The Marik family? Yeah. That is true.
To his people, trying to buy time to avoid a full fledged war. Not so much.
And that plan was not initiated by him, but by his father. In the books he even states he was against it, but left it going because Hanse knew better. Oh yeah. The fault was not letting Thomas know sooner. Katherine would have used Joshua to blackmail Thomas, even knowing he was dead. That is the kind of leader you think is the best for the FC?
So in order to be a politician, you can not agree to help others in order to get help back? With the Jaguars done, and had the civil war not happened, they could have gone after the Falcons and Wolves and such. Might not have been as peaceful with the DC with that going on, but the DC would be obligated to help the FRR while the FC took care of 1 by themselves, and the second one helping the FRR. That is not saying people in the FC wouldn't be mad. But it does sound like a solid choice to get peace in the IS, and the new SL.
Actually, the rules of succession do allow the current ruler to choose their heirs even if they are not the next in line. Katherine's lack of military training would be a good reason to avoid her. The FS requires it, while the LC was supportive of it. The other children could well have been promoted. If it would stick, I don't know.
But it is surprising that you state the lord could refuse Victor, but yet they couldn't do so with Katherine. Pet project here?
Hanse knew it was a death sentence to engage the enemy with his single mech.
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Requiem
01/26/20 05:05 AM
1.158.235.15
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The Wolcott solution only applies to worlds like it.
If the Clans have since learnt from the assault then why can’t the IS forces also learn from the same assault?
How many worlds don’t have an area of land that restricts a Clans weapon range / movement advantage and allows for similar strikes as per that of Wocott?
Also how many commanders would customize their battlefield landscape? So unless the Clans want to sit outside and do nothing they are not going to get very far very fast. So whoever loses their cool first will lose their battlefield advantage ..
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Timing is off again. The PGCs came in long before Tukayidd was even offered.
Sarna.net – Ulric Kerensky – “the use of Provisional Garrison Clusters, which were technically not part of the invasion bids”
So some-time between July to September 3052 - Clan Wolf began using them – However The Jaguars were using them before this.
Question – when did both of these Khans decide to request these forces, as it takes 6 months or more for them to arrive from Clan Space.
And if their allowance is a technicality then why can the IS declare a trial to remove them?
Again if this is not TPTB favoring their pet clans on a technicality then what do you call this?
As even in defense they will be required to engage in battle which goes against the original bidding …
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ALL houses did bad things.
And how many of the original House Books discussed these “Bad Things”, and were these ever to be incorporated into the game?
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Freedom gives you the right to say you don't like the government. It however, does not give you the right to start violence just because.
There are some who would disagree …
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The constant push that the game needs to have assassins.
If assassination is so bad then add it to the list WMDs, Orbital Bombardments and whist you are there kill off all Commando / Special forces ….
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You really think the writer had play tested the fight with Vlad/Phelan?
Yes
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Even a reinforced company of mech should win. Oh yeah. They didn't know the invaders strengths …
Infantry Sensors with a range of 50Km for radar (at the minimum) + in addition to all other sensors that are available; and
Optical sensors – eyes mk 1 – depending on the binoculars and the position you are located can be even greater than 50Km.
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This was a common misconception
The misconception is starting with a two to one advantage – it is usually three to one.
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They avoided the large garrisons, only to hit it once they had no supplies coming in.
Doesn’t this statement go against their principle of racial superiority? So, no I don’t believe it.
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Precognition isn't something the game has in it.
You do realize you brought this idea into the discussion.
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The RCT's were even split to cover multiple locations, which is how Pirates and such can raid a heavily guarded world.
Sorry … but no , this premise doesn’t work ….
First the pirates would have to arrive via a pirate point as a Jump at the Nadir will alert the planet of the arrival of their ship through the wake they produce on re-entry;
Second, this is why you have a wing of aerospace fighters on alert duty (stuck in a drop-ship orbiting the planet – and on a rotation basis) at all times upon a heavily guarded world. Also as stated previously how many conventional fighters and bombers can a heavily guarded world have?
So I may have 108 Mechs on a planet spead out everywhere, but how many fighters does a pirate have is a better question - air superiority and being bombed to the stone age by waves of bombers comes to mind here.
And again … this is just supposition, it is not fact!
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Katherine …. wasn't for the people, but for her.
True, but how many people knew this … and of those who knew it how many would say it … and if they did say it, how many people would believe them given her very carefully crafted public image?
Where-as Victor allowed a child to die in hospital without informing his parents and then decided to cover it up by replacing the dead child with a substitute …
So who had the better public image at the start?
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Timing yet again. Having a contingency in place and having Comstar block all outgoing transmissions seems to have Comstar winning that one.
ComStar’s blackout policy related to worlds taken by the Clans – it did not relate to worlds that were coming under attack by the Clans sending out invasion warnings. As what would happen if proof was held that an invasion transmission was sent out and yet was never received by the Houses GHQ?
I would also like to point out that it wasn’t until Focht was sent as a ComStar Representative (Diplomat) to the Clans and a formal treaty was entered into did ComStar start its plans of darkening messages to and from the Clan OZ.
So yes the initial invasion warning was sent and it was acted upon, to think otherwise is getting a little far-fetched.
As for the Black Boxed – Canon has them being a rare item – however when a major house like the FC has a secret war with ComStar and you expect the FC not to put in place contingencies when ComStar retaliates is again far-fetched – any sane person would have a Black Box assigned to every Premier Military unit within the FC ASAP.
As for the DC and their Black Box technology – who knows what they would do?
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Victor
Even if his plan was to avert a war, not doing everything in his power to reunite a father and son as the son lay dieing in hospital, and then replacing the son with a substitute is an extremely ruthless and cold hearted decision, even by Katherine’s standards.
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And that plan was not initiated by him, but by his father. In the books he even states he was against it, but left it going because Hanse knew better.
Question: What was the “real reason” for operation rat against the CC – Could it be that the Capellan Chancellor wiped a man’s mind, programmed him with Hanse’s life data and sent him to New Avalon to replace the real Hanse Davion – so disgusted was Hanse that he designed Operation Rat and destroyed half of the CC in revenge (as seen in last book of the Warrior Trillogy when he sent a message to the CC with Hanse and the double at the same time.
So Hanse had a deep hatred of the ideas of doubles – so could this plan just be a hypothetical to which his gather never read – it was just found by Victor and he thought it was his father’s but in reality it wasn’t!
So,
Sarna.net Hanse Davion – “Died 17 June 3052”
Sarna.net Victor Steiner-Davion – “With Joshua Marik's failing health, Victor instituted a plan of his father's to replace the boy with a double by 1 April 3056”
So his father had died nearly four years previously – Victor just assumed it ws one of his father’s plans – he was against it, and yet he ordered it anyway?
So, if he didn’t get caught how far would he have taken this?
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Katherine would have used Joshua to blackmail Thomas, even knowing he was dead. That is the kind of leader you think is the best for the FC?
No she didn’t need to blackmail Thomas to get what she wanted – All she needed to do was set up a priority Jump-Ship route from New Avalon to Thomas as quickly as possible and be there nursing Joshua all the way – if they made it in time he would owe her a very big favor (even though she would say he didn’t) for the care and humanity she showed in getting his child to him with all due alacrity – Whilst back home the Media of the FC would be praising her for her humanity, love of family and chare given to a sick child.
Fast forward to a Whittling Conference in the future, to elect the next First Lord, – given the care Katherine has shown to his family would Thomas be more likely or less likely to vote for her based upon her assistance to his family in the past.
Remember sometimes you get greater dividends by acting the angle than that of continually acting the devil.
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So in order to be a politician, you can not agree to help others in order to get help back? With the Jaguars done, and had the civil war not happened, they could have gone after the Falcons and Wolves and such.
A FC politician cannot assist the DC in removing the Jaguars first, this is unconscionable.
The only action any politician would accept is the retaliation against ALL of the invading Clans at the same time.
Thus the need to rebuild new anti clan units with new IS Omni Tech – new IS Omni vehicles, new IS Power Armor, new IS Aerospace, new IS Warships etc …
Politically it is impossible to consider going as early as they did and with no real technology and no new anti-clan military units.
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Actually, the rules of succession do allow the current ruler to choose their heirs even if they are not the next in line.
Prove it! …my proof at the end of each of the original House Books we have a document entitled eg. “The Davion Line of Succession and Partial Family Tree” in which we see the line of succession going from Parents to Children from 2200 onwards …
If you are going to site Adam Steiner during the Jihad I have written a forum on that stating (and proving) the illegality of such an action – what we see here is a Coup by the Military over the Legal Successor of the Lyran Alliance.
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Katherine's lack of military training would be a good reason to avoid her. The FS requires it, while the LC was supportive of it.
How hard would it have been to give her reserve training whilst at University that would then comply with the FS rule – plus Yvonne never had it and she was appointed as Regent until her son could take the throne.
So the point is?
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But it is surprising that you state the lord could refuse Victor, but yet they couldn't do so with Katherine.
As staged above … rather than killing her mother (as she did not need to it) she sent her assassin after Victor, as a back up she also had her spies find incontrovertible proof that Victor has gotten Omika pregnant and an issue was formed.
Thus the next legal successor of the FC is now a half FC / DC child – The Draconis March would see this as treason – the Capellan March could go either way, Skye would have a fit and many planetary lords in the middle would also have a fit.
Whist at the same time Katherine’s people within the FC media demonize him to such a position that it looks as though either Victor and his half bastard child are removed from the line of succession or the FC could fracture into many small states (similar to that of the FWL in the future) Melissa would have but one action – remove Victor – preserve the FC (and for the SLDF anti Clan alliance) – then announce Katherine as next in line for succession ….
As for Pet Project … yes, she is by far a better character than Victor – Paradise Lost – Being Bad is more fun than being good?
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Hanse knew it was a death sentence to engage the enemy with his single mech.
On a world where you have how many royal units assigned as a security detail permanently?
Plus the cadet corp if how far away – and how many ‘Mech do they have – and how many teachers are also Mech Warriors?
No, he knew it was just a question of time before he was reinforced – and he got it in the form of Team Banzai.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/26/20 01:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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There are worlds that have things that do reduce range and stuff. Trell 1 had the metals that interfered with the sensor arrays, and that seemed to be on more worlds. And I would bet it was used. But there is only so much you can do with a few kilometers of lands verse almost an entire planet. The trick of changing names worked only a few times, then the clans stopped most of the challenges as they no longer trusted the correct information to be given. The bs of the whole thing was the inability to find the clans before they opened fire most of the time. And I will say it again. It was bs that they could only be found once they opened fire.
What do you mean use the PGCs? In assaults or as garrison units? It was mid 3050 that they were deployed by the Jaguars.
If I know right, Wolf had them on their way before they ok was given, and the fact the Jaguars had them there quickly would suggest they had the units close by such as on the periphery worlds waiting.
As for declaring a trial to remove the PGC's, that may well be why the IS only refused the war itself. Each clan would have to be fought to remove their forces. Not sure if they understood they could have required all clans out as Isorla. Though it might cause them to have to fight multiple clans in order to do so. The Jaguars were to stop the war.
They were not the basis of the game, as it was not set up for the succession wars, except the 4th. And yes. Planets are still irradiated, and the Kentares Massacre still hasn't recovered from that order. Other worlds still suffer from radiation around areas. Now if you were able to fight the succession wars, or even the Amaris war, then they would be. And all the original house books discussed the bad things. It was a backdrop, not the main story.
Those people that start violence because they disagree with the government normally, but not always, are strong man thugs. They want to use basic terror tactics to make all obey them without question. A few would be within their rights as the government uses eminent domain without any sort of a trial. Basically move in and confiscate the item, usually lands.
Ok. When, besides head hunting, has assassinations been ok? They have always been illegal that I know of. A lot get overlooked, as no one wants to admit they enjoyed it happening to some, but it doesn't change the fact it has been illegal. Spec ops are a grey area here.
You really haven't read the story have you? During the later parts of the invasion, the books all say the clans started bypassing the heavy military planets to hit other, then deal with the military, once those worlds were taken. Weither you agree with it or not doesn't change the fact it was written like that.
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ghostrider
01/26/20 01:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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The range of sensors for infantry far outreach those of the mechanized units in the game. That has been shown. Now having someone man them every second of the day isn't likely. Also, they would have to be in place to begin with. And again, the economy comes in here. Otherwise, most of the attacks during the succession wars, and all raids would have always been detected.
Misconception of numbers. How many of the scenarios has two almost equal strength units fighting each other? You rarely have anything that is over powered for long on one side or the other. So 2 to 1 isn't normal, 3 to 1 is only for big assaults, if you can get it.
And with that, it might be why the wars didn't go far. Few would have the 3 to 1 to do much. And numbers of nation units is misleading, as you need to have defenders everywhere.
I don't remember saying that the IS would be sitting or set up defenses before the clans attacked. I don't remember saying the planetary forces would be close together at the time of a clan attack. I did not say that plans should be set in motion to counter future events. So how is it I brought in precognition, other then to show the 'solutions' to canons problems was just that. Using the end results to change the parameters to chance the end result.
Not all worlds had fighter carriers orbiting them. Some didn't even have more then a lance. Now I did say RCT, so that is my fault. But it is known that their fighter wings have been sent off to do things without the ground forces. So I will give you that one.
RCTs have had a single lance guarding other worlds as they AO was regions, not just a single world. Even in the same system, they were guarding multiple worlds. Militias work for some things, but having front line troops make people feel safer, especially if the location doesn't have anything else.
There is some patrols and such that happen, but for the most part, the unit is in stand down mode. You will NOT be keeping everything you have on high alert all the time. Especially on a back water world.
From one example, it is suggested that a raid lasts less then a day. Detection, which is the weakest link in the game, has to be done as the raiders come towards or even drop from orbit. The next step is sending out recon to see what is there. Then responding with units closest to the raiders, with some units being moved to assume the moved off units guard duties.
Fighters are not the end all for preventing raids, or destroying the enemy. It is a very big factor in it, when dealing with dropships.
As what would happen if proof was held that an invasion transmission was sent out and yet was never received by the Houses GHQ?
Got to love this one. There has been multiple times that information never reached the houses HQ because of Comstars restricting it. The entire interdiction was one of those. The only thing that saved the FS was the black boxes, which mysteriously appeared then vanished when it no longer suited the writers.
And yet it was Katrina that found them, yet the LC couldn't keep contact with the FS? There is another loop hole for you.
Katherine would have blackmailed Thomas. It does not say did blackmail. Two words made the response moot.
Project Gemini was started soon after Joshua was brought to New Avalon. It was insurance to keep the weapons refit packages going to the front lines, as well as new equipment needed to fight the clans. Victor only left it in place. Again, it seems you have either not read the stories, or maybe forgot them all.
As a leader, you do things you don't like, as it is supposed to help the general population. Rationing in times of emergency being a big one. You want to divert all that is needed, but that creates issues elsewhere. And for most leaders, not profitting from every last thing is against their wishes. Diplomatic issues tend to be another big one.
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ghostrider
01/26/20 02:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. As they didn't write it in, or maybe decided to create new issues to avoid it, there is the probability that they were going to oust the other clans but never got the chance. The FRR, then the DC were in the most dire situation with the clans. The FC had the entire FS area pretty clear from invasion, but moving the troops from the FS to the front line would take months, possibly years without stripping the commerce areas again. Logic would suggest that compromise was done in order to get the counter assault done. It may well be the voting in the SL pushed for that, and 3 to 1 vote would do so. The FC being one vote, not two, but still out numbered by the others. To deny that vote, would be to destroy the League.
Actually, Katherine was more cold hearted. She just used the Joshua incident to put her brother in a bad light. Even though casualties from her actions were not written down, you can not tell me people didn't die from her 'delayed' shipments or riots started by her. Even the outright assaults that started before the actual civil war. But those don't matter, as it puts Katherine in a bad light. Victor was not perfect, but then none of the leaders were.
The first one that comes to mind wasn't Adam for jumping the next in line, but house Kurita. Even the SL had an issue that jumped the first child. It happens for the lesser leaders in the houses as well. But as suggested, Katherine failed the FS requirements to take over. She got them afterwards.
The point is, she was not qualified to run the FS at that time. You want the DC to strictly follow Bushido, but not require the same thing from Katherine? How is that keeping everything consistent?
One shot is alls it takes to kill a mech. Granted for the head it has to be an ac10, ppc, gauss rifle, or ac 20 and critting the cockpit. Plus you are talking engaging multiple units at once, with back up not being around for a short while. It makes a great story of being a hero, but if it was reality, I doubt he would have gone out alone.
And yes. I do understand there was security at the NAIS defending the place, so technically, he wasn't alone.
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Requiem
01/26/20 08:14 PM
1.158.235.15
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Here is where I have issues …
That the majority of worlds that were invaded by the Clans (post Wolcott) didn’t have a single area of land large enough to restrict clan movement and range.
Once it was understood the Clans had an understanding of Unit designations (House / Mercenary / Green / Elite) surely it would be expected that every designation would change to maintain security, even the Clans should have understood this. But what was not discussed, and should have been, is how the Clans came by this information (Pre Outreach Meeting with Wolf’s Dragoons). Wouldn’t there have been an investigation into the possible sources of this information?
As for giving up on challenges – this is how the IS has been operating for centuries, and is something the Clans have never done, so why don’t we see problems with the Clans when they attempt to establish and intelligence unit regarding IS units (which would be incredibly difficult for them to establish)?
Also culturally – How would their warriors accept being transferred from a battle position to an administrative position? Whereas within the IS military there are many roles that are never seen within a Clan military – specialists in the field - Intelligence, Psychological Warfare, Electronics Warfare, Communications, Cryptology, MP – Interrogations etc, Commando – behind the lines demolitions / assassination / information / people retrieval, even the IS spy should have run rings around any clan version of a spy ….. etc
Plus the scope of weapons available to the IS in comparison to the Clans … during the invasion they didn’t have artillery, infantry numbers were vastly different (so why can’t they have an anti elemental weapon?),The Clans didn’t have vehicles, The Clans didn’t have VTOL, They didn’t have conventional fighters / bombers, They didn’t have sea surface and submarine vessels …. Etc
In addition to hold a planet they would have had to use IS police departments etc …. So how many decided to go quisling and how many not per world … partisan activities?
The invasion, as written, is about as believable as the usefulness of a wet paper bag …
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What do you mean use the PGCs? In assaults or as garrison units?
This is also another problem in the game – believing the war only occurred on the front lines and that no forces were sent into the rear – for information gathering, raiding clan supply depot established within the IS, indentifying Clan reinforcements before they have been assigned to a unit (capture / kill), disrupting their logistics and attempting to retake worlds lost – causing front line forces to be sent back and slowing their advance …
Thus having PGC who are “technically” not allowed to be involved in combat (or is it the technicality is that they are not allowed on the front lines expanding their Invasion Corridor) within the IS are now confronted with an IS unit are they just to back off or are they allowed to engage in combat? Also can a PGC accept a challenge – “With what forces do you defend this world …”
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If I know right, Wolf had them on their way before they ok was given, and the fact the Jaguars had them there quickly would suggest they had the units close by such as on the periphery worlds waiting.
…and yet another good reason s to why my Fenrir Forces (IS forces sent into the Deep Periphery to disrupt their logistics) would have use, discovering a second army within the Deep Periphery would have been of great importance …. So when you ask someone like Jamie Wolf (Wolf’s Dragoons) or a Clan POW (possibly a Bondsman within the IS) what this means, I would like to ask could the IS have demanded a challenge then and there regarding the Clans use of PGCs within the IS, ie. they use their own rules against them, could they have fought the idea of PGCs by challenging each Clan individually?
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As for declaring a trial to remove the PGC's, that may well be why the IS only refused the war itself. Each clan would have to be fought to remove their forces. Not sure if they understood they could have required all clans out as Isorla. Though it might cause them to have to fight multiple clans in order to do so. The Jaguars were to stop the war.
And yet Jamie Wolf and many of his Wolf Dragoons would have known this ….. as well as any Clan POW (now possibly a Bondsman…)
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It was a backdrop, not the main story.
… and can it not be within the backdrop of the Clan Invasion … Kentares Massacre brought about the FS reversal against the DC …. So when the cannon states that there is Jaguar Slavery, then where are the DC retribution / liberation forces – the common people’s outrage and demand for vengeance – the upswing in partisan activity, no matter the cost, on Jaguar held worlds?
Two dimensional writing again … leaving out the “Bad Bits” so as to pave the way for the overall aim of allowing the Clans to remain within the IS permanently? (who’s a good pet Clan force then?)
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Those people that start violence because they disagree with the government normally, but not always, are strong man thugs.
Film … Red Dawn (Both versions) …. The Guns of Navarone …. Defiance …. The Train ….
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When, besides head hunting, has assassinations been ok?
Commando operations – sniper; Quislings; Reinhard Heydrich ….. as for it being illegal, has anyone ever been before the ‘old bill’ for these actions during war?
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During the later parts of the invasion, the books all say the clans started bypassing the heavy military planets to hit other, then deal with the military, once those worlds were taken.
This doesn’t change the fact that worlds, that had military forces on them were attacked – and these worlds were then given more time to prepare for an incoming invasion, thus more traps, more preparations …. So what would happen if the IS won these worlds … there will be a gap between one area and the next within their conquered territory …
The movement table suggests that VTOLs can only fly above wooded areas - so what would happen if you sent your infantry in and took the top off many trees so that you create an area where a VTOL can hover and be hidden from sight.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/26/20 10:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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As stated before Wolfnet was working before the Dragoons got into the IS. But one alternative possibility would be that the HPG network still had back doors from the original SL. So they got into it before Comstar started helping them. And with Comstars help, they had a huge benefit to understanding where the IS forces were and defensive positions.
The IS didn't give out challenges for fights, with the exception of some commanders agreeing to duals and such.
Hanse talked about the idea of sending their elites against the clan garrisons, while holding the omnis with what ever they could. He hoped they could take the worlds behind enemy lines and get the clans to halt forward movement to retake those worlds. This failed as the clans were not worried about taking worlds as much as taking Terra itself.
Guess being a garrison unit, and not assaulting other worlds hasn't sunk in. The PGCs or even other forces not bid into the battle, were not to take action against an enemy except for self defense. And they didn't play the garbage of sitting in the enemy's path to suggest they were defending themselves.
It would be foolish to think the clans didn't have reinforcements on the way. If for no other reason, then to guard supplies and take over garrison duties. The question would be when and how much. In canon, the risk of sending out raiders into the periphery was too great. Outside of canon, well depends on your outlook of what resources you have. Your alt has things like dropships and jumpships being as common as meteors hitting a world in an asteroid belt.
Jamie was in the IS for almost 50 years. In that time things can change. The idea of the rules of the invasion may well have been beyond even his guesses. He would know the basics of troop fighting skills and weapons for the most part, but not the over all battle plans. Yes, some pieces would be predictable, but not the general planetary assaults. Exactly what clans and how they would get here. And the Exodus path could not be that big of a part in the invasion. As said before, that would have them coming in from the AO direction.
Given the 'evil' combine overlords, who is to say the populations didn't want out from under house Kurita? For some, a new face behind the whip helps deal with the every day life. Not likely among all the population, but could help root out rebels.
Red Dawn was natives fighting a foreign invader. But I guess I should have said THIER government.
Yes the enemy would have more time to create traps and such, but in return, you are not dealing with a simple trinary. You would probably be dealing with a cluster or even galaxy, which meant far more units then you were hoping for. It is also possible that the Advanced Probes showed the clans a lot of them, making them useless. I don't know.
Now the VTOL idea might work in some games, but battle tech is limited in that as only the novel writers can do that and not break the rules. Basically any VTOL below the tree tops is considered to have crashed. Just like cranking back your mechs torso to give your arms more range, or driving a spike into the head of an elemental armor. Even the ability to blow up a pass by over heating a mech with no ammo, as the explosion creating a sympathetic blast from charges in the pass, yet fusion engines don't blow up.
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Requiem
01/26/20 10:24 PM
1.158.235.15
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The range of sensors for infantry far outreach those of the mechanized units in the game. That has been shown. Now having someone man them every second of the day isn't likely.
This is the military … they will stay there as long as they are ordered to do so … WW2 English Air Spotters … Radar Stations … or how about warships / submarines, their sensor operators don’t need to be there all the time do they?
As for being in place to begin with – this is all part of the SOP preparedness for an invasion and for any infantry unit ….
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… most of the attacks during the succession wars, and all raids would have always been detected.
Yes many should have been detected by both sides … this is why many of the battles should have been similar to the NATO war games … or any modern War Games Operations which is conduced to evaluate the preparedness of your forces as well as training to operate in concert with your allied forces ….
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…. Misconception of numbers ….
The 20 year handbook has the FC at over 260 Regiments and there were still many years between this book and the Clans Invasion … so there should have been even more created in this time …
You have the Invasion and what do you see – one on one fighting is near but pointless given their range, speed, armor, and piloting benefits
And during the invasion you do not see a build up of forces to counteract these advantages ….
You have the one year of peace
And yet again past this point you still do not see a build-up of IS forces / preparing the worlds to counteract these advantages ….
Then you have the 15 year truce and still you do not see a build-up of forces … to counteract these advantages ….
Would any sane military General consider taking on the Clans with a 1:1 ratio?
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And numbers of nation units is misleading, as you need to have defenders everywhere.
What is misleading is belief you needed a vast military upon all your borders at all times –
With the agreement between Hanse and Theodore during the earliest days of the invasion this became moot.
With the Kells and the Wolves defense of Luthien this was once more proven to be moot.
With the signing into existence of the new SL and the establishment of the SLDF this once more became moot
Fighting 3:1 against the Clans is very possible ….
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Not all worlds had fighter carriers orbiting them. Some didn't even have more then a lance.
Modified Union, Modified Overlord ….
How many satellites ….
And on the ground how many conventional fighters and bombers? How many VTOL? ……..
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RCTs have had a single lance guarding other worlds as they AO was regions, not just a single world. Even in the same system, they were guarding multiple worlds. Militias work for some things, but having front line troops make people feel safer, especially if the location doesn't have anything else.
Again this is but pure supposition … no general would divide their forces to such an extreme … this is BS.
Has any military in any age divided their forces like this?
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You will NOT be keeping everything you have on high alert all the time.
Yes I will for those that are within two / four jumps of the Invasion Corridor, and yes they will have a pre-arranged combat location, they will concentrate their forces, they will have every sensor ready to opera on a moment’s notice.
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F ighters are not the end all for preventing raids, or destroying the enemy. It is a very big factor in it, when dealing with dropships.
And this is wht RCTs have elements from every military organization attached to them – with the exception of Naval Vessels (sea).
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As what would happen if proof was held that an invasion transmission was sent out and yet was never received by the Houses GHQ?
In the first wave how many worlds were attacked – and they all would have sent out an invasion warning – if none of them were received by GHQ what would each Houses Lord do to ComStar in retaliation …. An interesting question … but at the earliest stage of the invasion even ComStar did not know who they were so why would they stop multiple invasion warning messages?
Also, each House has a Precentor and a Precentor’s power is related to the number of worlds under their care, and I addition to this one of their primary duties is maintaining their precious image of being a humanitarian organization that does not take sides.
So if they were caught doing this to every great house at the same time – their complete and utter destruction as each great House Nationalizes those HPGs within their Empire.
Though the real question should be what would those who have decided to work for ComStar do if they were asked to betray the people / the sate they have lived with for so many years – would they obey and stop the message or would they send it on – and the more HPGs that are ordered to do this, isn’t there a chance of a new schism within ComStar over their refusal to obey a clearly illegal order by the First Circuit or by the Primus or by individual Precentors?
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yet the LC couldn't keep contact with the FS
…and yet Katherine built a serried of HPG stations so that she could talk between the two capitals in real time?
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Katherine would have blackmailed Thomas.
Blinkered vision of Katherine?
My version of her is an individual who is far more devious that a individual who no matter the situation goes for the most evil and illegal strategy … who wants to hurt people every second of the day, just because she can ….
Sorry, but this is not my vision of her … there are many evil females within literature / films that could be used as inspiration when creating a vision of who she is ….
Sarna.net – Operation Doppelganger – “After Joshua died in 3057, Victor Steiner-Davion was afraid that Thomas Marik would stop providing these military supplies. With this thought in mind, Victor ordered the creation of a double for Joshua Marik to disguise his death.”
Victor is in charge …the buck stops with him … he must take total responsibility for his actions and this is not a Diplomatic issue it is a selfish act designed to help his military over that of everything else!
Trying to put a positive spin on his actions will not work, that is unless you agree that everything Katherine did is equally a positive action that is supposed to help the general population!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/26/20 10:47 PM)
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Requiem
01/26/20 10:48 PM
1.158.235.15
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There is the probability that they were going to oust the other clans but never got the chance.
No, the books were clear on this point when the military council reported to the Star League members – only one Clan.
A point no politician from any of the Houses could have accepted – it is political suicide – you might as well have called each leader on the Star League “Muggings” !
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Actually, Katherine was more cold hearted. She just used the Joshua incident to put her brother in a bad light.
Sorry but I disagree … Victor did this all to himself and he deserves what he got!
If there are no casualties written down how can we say there any to begin with?
Who has the final legal authority over all of the military? The ruler of the House? So if a unit says no, and disobeys her orders, is she allowed to send in the MPs / Military Unit to arrest those Officers and Enlisted Personnel who have defied her legal orders?
Or are you saying any military unit at any time is allowed to defy any order given to them by an Officer of a greater rank?
i.e you are allowed to go rogue at any time and work for any other Lord that you want to do so?
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The point is, she was not qualified to run the FS at that time.
And Yvonne was? Both before and after she was married?
The point is Katherine did get her qualification – when and how she got them is immaterial – the point is she did get them …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
01/27/20 12:46 AM
1.158.235.15
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Wolfnet was working before the Dragoons got into the IS
Correct, but there are two incarnations of Wolfnet …
First, there is the Wolfnet of Wolf Dragoons who’s abilities surpass all Inner Sphere Houses and ComStar’s Intelligence Agencies abilities;
Second, there is the Wolfnet of Clans Invasion who’s abilities is little more that getting out of a wet paper bag.
Question: why would ComStar allow Wolfnet into their inner Sanctum? What was in it for both of them?
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The IS didn't give out challenges for fights, with the exception of some commanders agreeing to duals and such.
Wolcott.
In defeating the Clans you must use every weapon you have in your arsenal as well as any flaw your enemy has presented to you to win. And one of the Clans biggest Flaw was their challenges … Theodore Kurita proved as much.
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Hanse talked about the idea of sending their elites against the clan garrisons, while holding the omnis with what ever they could. He hoped they could take the worlds behind enemy lines and get the clans to halt forward movement to retake those worlds. This failed as the clans were not worried about taking worlds as much as taking Terra itself.
Where is this written?
If the Clans are not worried about worlds then maybe they should be worried about the logistics chain.
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The PGCs or even other forces not bid into the battle, were not to take action against an enemy except for self defense. And they didn't play the garbage of sitting in the enemy's path to suggest they were defending themselves.
And you expect me to believe this? … especially when you consider the average Clan warrior’s psychological profile – regarding their desire to be in combat, proving them-selves, so that they can be marked as a ri-star, and then obtain a Blood-Name ….. and finally their genetics will be used for the next generation.
This is BS …. Any Clan Commander, even a PGC’s, would want to be right in the middle of the hurricane ….
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It would be foolish to think the clans didn't have reinforcements on the way.
And what about their initial bid … what about their honor … guess the Clans didn’t understand the concept, what they did understand though was obfuscation of the rules in order to win …
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Your alt has things like dropships and jumpships being as common as meteors hitting a world in an asteroid belt.
Again, show me where the exact numbers each House possess – as well as their class – for both Jump and Drop ships.
All any-one has is their own personal supposition based upon very rough calculations used within the 4th Succession War – however as the Helm Memory Core has been cracked open as well – then we have a period of economic growth, as the Technological Grade is steadily moving towards “F”.
Therefore as technology has now surpassed that of the Star League the ability of corporations to manufacture items such as Dropships and Jumpships has now returned to the Inner Sphere – and then we have 10 years of peace, so in that time what has truly been rebuilt and in what quantities?
This is where the game was let down once more TPTB did not due due-diligence in that time so as to prepare the IS for what was to come. Ie. they really stuffed the Beta testing! The timing of the invasion as well as the writing’s quality was completely subpar with way too many holes – the game could have been so much more if just a little more thought was entered into it – just look at the plot developments that all of us that have contributed to this and other Forums on sarna have come up with – a vast array of new and exiting areas from which to explore the Clan Invasion. (and isn’t this want we all want more and varied, exciting and new missions from which to send our forces on?)
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Jamie was in the IS for almost 50 years. In that time things can change. The idea of the rules of the invasion may well have been beyond even his guesses.
Two resupply missions … in which he is required to supply his vast intelligence he has amassed so far. So would this not also be reciprocal? In that the Clans would want to keep him appraised of any new developments back home, otherwise how can he be pre-pared when (if) the invasion arrives.
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And the Exodus path could not be that big of a part in the invasion.
Then how did Jamie and his Dragoons get to the IS. And why did “they” make sure he didn’t retain a copy of the map once he arrived, a map from the IS to the Clan Home worlds – otherwise Jamie could have just given it over to the Leaders of the IS at the Outreach Conference.
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Given the 'evil' combine overlords, who is to say the populations didn't want out from under house Kurita?
If the Kuritan state was that evil please explain why Turtle Bay’s ordinary citizens as well as their yakuza assist the Heir to the Throne in escaping capture by the Clans?
As for quislings – yes there will always be some, but we all know what their fate will be.
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You would probably be dealing with a cluster or even galaxy, which meant far more units then you were hoping for
No the same principle stands! But it all comes down to commander Vs. commander and their individual strategies to win.
And remember what Patton said, old blood and guts himself ….”No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.”
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Now the VTOL idea might work in some games, but battle tech is limited in that as only the novel writers can do that and not break the rules.
Sorry but this is a complete load of BS. Prir to you game write them all down – Hex No. XXXX – VTOL Hidden drop point – hidden VTOL Path through light woods from Hex No XXX through XXX and entering out XXXX
Hidden Pill Box at XXXX, Vibro - Mine field Located at XXXX to XXXX – Infantry spotter located at XXX etc etc.
As for the remainder of your ideas … just establish house rules and make sure everyone knows them from the get go so there are no bad losers. So, not a problem at all.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/27/20 01:19 AM
66.74.60.165
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There was a major build up of forces on the clan front. The DC moved most of the units on the border with the FS, and the FS did the same. It was this movement of forces that lead to Victor not being able to take on Katherine sooner, as she confiscated most of the jumpships that moved those units.
Objective Raids: Chuckchi- militia only
Gallery- militia only
Aur- militia only, and this world was where Defiance was getting a lot of their fusion engines from.
Gibbs- one infantry company and militia
NAIS Cadet units- 1 batt on New Earth, 2 batts on Oliver
Gulkana-militia only
Kirklin- militia only
Campbelton-local militia only
Loyalty-local militia
Not DMM or CMM militia but the ones that were raised from the planets populations. There are more in other books but don't know where they are.
Now. You think you shouldn't have large numbers of your military on the borders? So they should be in the capital drinking with the house leaders while the border worlds get pounded, because it will take a few weeks to months to get there? Logic fail? Part of your ops to protect your borders would have units there as much as possible. Deterrence being the idea. But the enemy will gather up forces to hit you anyways. Can't have you thinking of doing the same as well as putting your plans, such as traps and such behind or even out of the picture entirely. The reason for a lot of border raids. But then I would guess the capital is the only world worth protecting. You would lose quickly with that one.
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ghostrider
01/27/20 01:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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Peter and Arthur were trained as well. So Yvonne should not be the first pick in that. Wow. There were more then just Katherine, Victor and Yvonne in the family? Imagine that.
Or are you saying any military unit at any time is allowed to defy any order given to them by an Officer of a greater rank?
There are times when this is an absolute yes. Being ordered to kill prisoners because you don't like the way that look comes to mind. Also, when you get orders from a colonel to do one thing, and your captain decides to order something in complete contradiction to those orders. I will say special missions as well.
Why would anyone allow a rival intel network into their midst? Infiltration being the main one I can think of.
Before the clans, how many times did rivals challenge each other before an attack? In the Battle tech universe?
One of the novels has that in it. Might be during the Wolf meeting. I believe he was talking to Justin Allard on the firing range.
I will have to look it up, but I believe comstar was in contact with the clans before they got into the IS. And the fact that the few coms that did get thru were thought to be in error as all the other com traffic from those worlds seemed to be in stride of normalty. And it isn't the first time Walterly's control had stopped messages from reaching the FC. Only this time she did it to the DC and FRR. Moving against Comstar was bad without the clans. With the clans, you might as well become a bondsman. At least at the time, you didn't know they weren't any better then Comstar.
Showing you lack understanding of the clans again? The PGC's is the last stop before Solemha. They were eager to show they still had it, but they would not risk breaking with the traditions of the clans. Most would die from trials called by the front line units if they had. Aidan was one of the oddities, but then that is because he was a martyr put up by TPTB. He would have been stripped and kicked to the Dark Caste if not outright killed for his deception. You will believe what every you want. This is how the game was set up.
Why would the IS know, much less care about the bid put in? They were being invaded, and were doing what they could to defend themselves. There had to be reinforcements coming from some where.
Increase in ships, that went to dealing with more interstellar shipping of items around the IS. The houses only buy so many of them as well as big companies, and the rest are sold to those that normally don't have the funds for them. Mercs and independent pilots. And how many of those increased numbers didn't make it back from the 3039 war? We know of at least 5 that the DC lost.
The idea that the clans wanted Jamie to be informed is forgetting a major point. Only the Wolves were confident in the Dragoons. The other clans suspected they would run as soon as they could. Only a few knew Kerlin Wards orders, so didn't know they didn't desert.
Where does it say the clans made sure Jamie didn't have the complete exodus road map to get into the IS? And what route did the clans take to invade? The part where they go past the northeast or the 1 to 3 clock position still happened?
Also, the path was out of the way, and the leaders would be more concerned about protecting their people at that point. Also, I don't think Jamie or the older ones wanted anyone to know that. The only way to stop the clans was to defeat them in combat. Hitting them at home would only get more of them into the fight. The corridor was agreed upon, but having strikes while the others were still at invading would have set off the other clans to come down the path and take on the IS from the 3 o'clock or AO position. Something that would have destroyed any sort of organized defense.
House rules does wonders for the group you are playing with, but others don't agree with them. Especially when you destroy their plans. Much like a hidden position. Each group has their own version of when you see them. For some, the AP would be needed, while others suggest you see them when you get into weapons range.
The quick start up to a fusion engine is against their own rules. It takes a while to get the reactor running right. Not 10 seconds. And even idled, without some other means to mask it, you would still detect something out there.
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Requiem
01/27/20 04:54 AM
1.158.235.15
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Again this is where everything falls down …
The twenty year update, however, indicated the following ‘Mech Regiments for each house…
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Duchy of Andurien 6 Regiments
Magistracy of Canopus 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Total D of A / M of C 18 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Taurian 14 Regiments
Alliance 3 Regiments
Other Periphery 10 Regiments
Comstar 50 + Regiments
The Clans however consisted of:-
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters; 2 warships; 82 jumpships; 242 dropships
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries) 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries) 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries) 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
Field Manual: Federated Suns (pages 174) and Lyran Alliance (Pages 165) (3062) - and how many regiments remain? way less than half?
Field Manual: Draconis Combine (3062) (Pages 176)– and how many regiments remain? Near 80 sound about right?
So how is the DC have a loss depletion report of 20% in the last 12 years and yet the FC has a loss depletion report of somewhere within the range of 55% to 60% + for the same period of time?
**** PS: and yet it looks as though the same amount of pages were assigned to each book for their military – so are we now supposed to assume that the number of units that survived the Clan wars is proportionate to the number of pages assigned to each Houses Field Manual! ****
(Remember the Civil War Starts November 3062 – so this cannot be a factor for the loss …)
So having only militia upon some worlds is a complete load of BS ….
Also if the PGC were so important to assisting Clans keep control of their worlds please explain the following ….
Clan Jade Falcon PGC (3059) (as per Sarna.net Clan Jade Falcon Touman / Binary
6th PGC – 1 Binary
9th PGC – 5 Binaries
10th PGC – Unknown
5th PGC – 5 Binaries
9th PGC – 5 Binaries
Aerospace Binary – 20 fighters
Armor Binary – 20 Combat Vehicles
Infantry Binary – 50 Elementals of 250 conventional infantry
This is a very limited …. Even if the 10th was also 5 Binaries and they were all infantry – that’s only 5,250 conventional infantry – This is not even 2RCTs worth of Infantry? So for the Jade Falcons the introduction of PGCs can in no way explain how they could keep all of their worlds under control ….
So how can you effectively control all your worlds, circa 3062, with such a pitiful addition to your Touman if this is a representative across the entire Clans?
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You think you shouldn't have large numbers of your military on the borders? So they should be in the capital drinking with the house leaders while the border worlds get pounded, because it will take a few weeks to months to get there?
Really … how droll!!
Peter … FAIL … retired to a monastery on Zaniah III … so he couldn’t do the job at all!
Arthur … FAIL …. James Sandoval had brainwashed him … then killed off, yet no body found … and no one bothered to add him back to the series in any form whatsoever, so his character was about as important as watching paint dry.
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Or are you saying any military unit at any time is allowed to defy any order given to them by an Officer of a greater rank? …. There are times when this is an absolute yes.
OK, did Katherine ask these unite to kill POWs ? No As for rank – Highest rank wins! Unless you have a document stating you are to ignore all further orders whilst on mission. So did Katherine make these orders? No
Did these units accept orders from outside the normal chain of command – someone who is not even a FC citizen (ComStar)? Yes – so is this legal? No ….is this a charge for a court-martial? Yes … could this be Mutiny? Yes.
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Solahma. They were eager to show they still had it, but they would not risk breaking with the traditions of the clans
Even if you are in a PGC don’t you want to die in a blaze of glory – serve your clan to the bitter end before you are sent to the ignominy of a Solahma unit!
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Why would the IS know, much less care about the bid put in?
Use their own rules against them, psychologically, show their rules / way of life / how they live / what is important to them are ineffective – especially to their Lower Castes – show them there is a better life than remaining as a Clansman … get them to defect on mass …
How good is their military if you cut out their maintenance crews (even a fraction of the total – how could you explain it to those that remained behind?). Counterforce Tactic – target military infrastructure.
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There had to be reinforcements coming from some where.
So just cut their logistical lines. My Fenrir force.
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…. interstellar shipping…. We know of at least 5 that the DC lost. (3039 War)
Between 3039 and 3050 how many were remade?
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Kerlin Wards orders
Sarna.net – Kerlin Ward – “he had them surreptitiously prepare the Spheroids for the eventual Crusader onslaught which he considered a distinct, yet still distant possibility, orders that the Dragoons would proceed to carry out as instructed”
So, how great was their “preparing” the Spheroids? Not very ….to next to none sound about right?
And if Kerlin gave them these orders cant we assume that he would have also told them everything – so this point is now turned around!
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Where does it say the clans made sure Jamie didn't have the complete exodus road map to get into the IS?
Logic would dictate this.
If Jamie did have a copy why didn’t he give it to the IS Leaders when they were on Outreach – He was given orders by Kerlin Ward (above)
Second, have a look how paranoid the Clans were with the Exodus Road coordinates when Trent provided the IS with the Exodus Road navigational data. Can’t we assume a similar level of paranoia when the Dragoons were sent to the IS – what would happen if they got it from the Dragoons!!!!!
As for the three O’Clock position exit – have a look at the final coordinates and you would realize that leaving at 12 O’Clock would be faster.
If Jamie thought attacking the Clan Home worlds was such a misstate then why didn’t he say so when the new SLDF came up with attacking the Jaguars and attacking Huntress at the same time?
House rules are just that house rules – as long as everyone within the house is on the same page what is the problem?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/27/20 12:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Might be the FC lost so many units was from having more territory hit, and sending more units into the FRR. Could be the social generals lost that much before the real generals got involved. Could be they got caught in space and wiped out by the warships. Might be all of the above, or none of it.
Guessing someone forgot to reread the numbers on units, and dropped some from the books?
Katherine ordered them to attack their own defenders a few times.
Let's not forget, Katherine didn't inherit the throne but took it, and Victor only allowed it to remain that way to avoid another fight. Her actions continued up to a point that had the FC ready to rebel without him stirring the pot. Omni's death finally got him to get it started from his point, but the civil war started before that. Katherine did order troops against those across the FC that were looking to see if their orders were legal. She sent direct orders to them, which isn't following the chain of command. They were sent out to oppress others that said no to her.
Dying in a blaze of glory is something that would be the end result, but your main goal is to do something to be moved up, and even have your genetics used in the future. A blaze of glory isn't always where you succeed. Running out and dying, and leading to a loss has been done in the past. You might personally kill 5 or more enemies yourself, but that is nothing if your side loses.
The initial bid was for units, not personnel in them. So bidding in the entire Falcon Guard, meant they could continually fill it with replacements. And I don't think they would do the most likely underhanded idea of increasing the original size of the unit to bring in more. If the IS had known about the bids and what they left behind, it would have sent panic throughout the IS. As suggested, you would not even attempt to take on an entrenched enemy with less then 3 to 1 odds. Yet the clans were doing so with 1 to 2 odds most of the time. And honestly, I am not sure if that was just mech numbers, or all military units. Without artillery and spotters, the clans outrage the IS, so sitting in your fortress won't work for long.
And the skills for rolling dice do have a huge impact on a battle. A simple roll of 5 verse a 4 on 2d6 changes a lot. So the rules of the game tends to dictate quirks with battles, if they actually fight them out. I don't believe most of the battles were fought. Just a verdict
We could assume Kerlin told them everything, but that would actually be a case against keeping things consistent. Jamie was a freeborn. Kerlin telling him everything would violate more then a few protocols and even clan society standings. He would have informed him of what was needed, but not tell him that much more. Natasha would probably know more about the rest then Jamie when they first left.
Part of their job was to evaluate the IS forces. After that, it is guessing, as he couldn't outright say the SLDF lives and wants to destroy the IS without risking the entire IS hitting them. If the Dragoons were from that army, then they would have to have advanced tech. Warships would be a great prize for any house that could take them. If not, then to avoid others having them, destroy them if possible.
Next point. If anyone from the IS got into the high command and was a spy, the information Kerlin gave them, may well have fallen into the IS hands. That would be a disaster to their entire reason for being here and actually try to launch a sneak attack on the clans home worlds.
Given the time the Dragoons took off for refits, and given the trueborns distaste for freeborns, I would think the refit took place on the clans home worlds. Otherwise, they had operational bases in between the IS and the home worlds. So deleting the exodus road map couldn't have been done. Or would have been remade if escorted by another clan force.
One possible reason with the reformed SL is the fact it was not a sloppy couple of RCT's being sent out to stir the hornet's nest. It was a 'unified' force with all different nations in it, with the express purpose of showing the clans, they were not going to win this. Might well be, the units sent out were tested by Jamie or he had seen what they could do. Also, the warships Comstar put into the effort would allow the task force a much better chance to actually pull it off, verse having to rely on fighters and assault dropships. Not capital weapon carrying dropships, but normal Avengers, Achilles and others.
Then again, he might have been against it, but the writers never added that into the story line.
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Requiem
01/27/20 05:19 PM
1.158.235.15
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Field Manual: Capellan Confederation (pages160) (3062) -48 not including St Ives 3
Twenty year update - The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments (puss the 4 MAC I removed) Total 30
So How does the CC be able to generate 18 new Regiments?
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Field Manual: Free World League (pages 160) (3062) – 61
Twenty year update – 66 Regiments
So how did the FWL loose 5 when they are considered one of the armories of the IS – producing mass amounts of refit packs?
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Guessing someone forgot to reread the numbers on units, and dropped some from the books?
The FC military lost 60% and the CC gained 60%
From these Field Manuals forward the game has been rigged – the history as written IS A LIE! – This is a military game based upon the premise of military strength, if the number of units allowed within the game is in error then all else that comes after it is wrong. So 3050 onwards is all in error of what it should be!
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Katherine ordered them to attack their own defenders a few times …. They were sent out to oppress others that said no to her..
And when did she give these orders and against whom? – During the Civil War and against units that had declared publicly that they are now rogue units – they obey a former FC lord who no longer has a legal standing within the FC and had since sworn loyalty to ComStar! Ordering rogue units to come to be brought to justice and brought to heel is a legal!
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Let's not forget, Katherine didn't inherit the throne but took it, and Victor only allowed it to remain that way to avoid another fight.
And taking the throne is wrong? How many siblings or close relatives have taken the throne by force within this medieval setting? Katherine’s own grandmother took the Lyran throne – and if Victor really wanted the Throne then he could have taken it to the courts – or he could have taken it to the people – his only choice wasn’t only the use of military force when he returned to the IS from Huntress and Clan Space!
(If he was a true House Lord though he would never have gone – again a House Leader does not have a place on the battlefield – his place is on the Capitol world ( incompetent ruler who wants to play soldier!))
Killing Omika (physically) was based upon spite and was beneath her (Katherine) – as stated previously if you really wanted to hurt Victor at this stage it would have been far more damaging to prove that she had given birth to Victors child – She would have to flee her position within the House Honor – the Black Dragon society would send assassins after her – Her father would be pressured to disown her at the very minimum or kill her himself (Disrupting the Tranquility of the Realm – Treason).
If she did flee – she has only two places she can go – her brother and the Spirit cats or Victor.
If she goes to the Spirit Cats can her brother protect her? Or will there be a war between the DCMS and the Cats over Omika! And how this would hurt Victor that he is unable to protect her! (plus how damaged the DCMS could be at the end of this? Katherine could then exploit a weakened DC in the future)
And if she goes to Victor his entire legitimacy for being the true ruler of the FC will be disappear overnight ie. the stool will be kicked out from beneath him whilst he is standing on it – and even if she doesn’t go to him his political power will evaporate in many important circles within the FC – Sandovals and the Draconis March / Capellan March / Skye at the minimum!
This is how a true political power, such as Katherine, would destroy her political / military rival! You find their greatest weakness and you then expose it for all the world to see and then you let the media and Omika’s family / realm kill her off without even lifting a finger.
Again we have two dimensional writing in killing Omika off – far more devious to expose her sins!
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Dying in a blaze of glory is something that would be the end result …. You might personally kill 5 or more enemies yourself, but that is nothing if your side loses.
This is the Clans we are talking about, it is not the DC, Clan psychology would suggest that dying in a blaze of glory no matter if you win / loose is the correct thing to do!
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he initial bid was for units, not personnel in them. So bidding in the entire Falcon Guard, meant they could continually fill it with replacements.
I agree … but where in that bid did the PGC’s come in?
I disagree about understanding the bidding process …. As above the IS FC and the DC should have more units than allowed, even to the point of having a 3:1 ratio ….. if you can prove to the Clan civilians that their leaders disobeyed their own tenants wouldn’t this shake their trust in them? …. Wouldn’t this prove that their leaders use politics to get their way rather than abiding to the rules … it would get many people thing about their right to rule at the minimum, and in the future this way of thinking could bear fruit, as it did with the scientists, but in this case it would be far more than just the scientists starting a revolt.
How many issues throughout history have been determined by trial by combat!
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Kerlin telling him everything would violate more then a few protocols and even clan society standings.
How can you get your man on the ground to get things done if you restrict their knowledge as to what is required.
If their job was to get the IS ready – protect their interests – then why not slip information to all military industries regarding constructing advanced weaponry.
Also warships – without them the IS is wide open for conquest if it is decided it will be a naval war - so why not provide information to allow the IS to build warships?
The Wolves however did nothing when it comes to “getting the IS ready for the invasion”.
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I would think the refit took place on the clans home worlds.
Resupply took place in deep space at a pre-arranged point in time – thus allowing Jamie a minimum amount of time he is missing from the Dragoons and from IS spies who are keeping an eye on him.
So again the Exodus Road map is gone – however he does have a star map up to a point ….
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Then again, he might have been against it, but the writers never added that into the story line.
Correct … we will never know
A united new SLDF destroys one of the Clan’s main reason for invading. The optics of putting the Cameron Star on their ships and vehicles and demonstrating that they are united (and even have Clans who have joined) will undercut the clan’s own political rational – plus it would play well with the Clans civilians – again psychological warfare by placing ideas into their civilian castes.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/27/20 07:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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I want to say the CC and the Trinity Alliance had issues with resources to build units. Once they started working together, they got things done. That would also have to be government factories that were made on Victoria and others, as normal commercial factories would require payments, which the CC seemed to rarely pay. Granted, it does look like someone added when it should have subtracted the numbers. One other possibility was Comstar was able to get the FWL to help out the CC, or maybe WOB as they did help refit the Achilles and make the CC's warships. Might also explain the missing regiments in the FWL. Ask the developers and fact checkers.
When Victor finally decided to start his push, there had been more then a few fights that destroyed worlds. Thorin being one of them. I also want to say Katherine had a few assaults on the Draconis March worlds as well. A lot of troops still believed Victor was the rightful leader. And with this, Victor choose to run the Comstar military to avoid the fight. So he did use another option. One not listed. Katherine pushed for the fight, as she tried to tighten her control over the FC. Omi was killed to hurt Victor, since he was making headway against her forces, and that was in the LA. Yet even without him running his troops, they were still keeping Katherines forces from destroying them.
History has many examples of siblings taking the throne by force or deception. Very few of them were for the better. Only when the whole community rose up to help the defeated sibling did it mean the new ruler wasn't liked by any.
Not sure how having a child would change his legitimacy for being the ruler, though it would be very embarrassing in some circles. In others, it would bring hope that the child would one day remove the DC from being a threat and the Steiner-Davion line would rule there to. Being heir to Hanse and Melissa, makes his legitimacy solid. It does NOT rule out, being overthrown. But as you suggested. The courts would be required, making it a long battle to do so. Something Katherine wouldn't want. And with Victor returning the hero, he chances would drop dramatically.
Plus it wasn't well know Omi had a child. He only found out with an autopsy report given to him. The statement was something like scarring the is normally attributed to child birth. It did NOT say she had a child.
The PGCs is part of their Trials. Screaming they are illegal suggests you don't understand this. Front line units aren't for defense unless they are being attacked. Or rarely ordered to engage in a defensive action. They will wait until the PGC's or who ever is doing the defense to die before moving out.
How many issues throughout history have been determined by trial by combat!
Funny. The complaints of the trials is this brought to life. Might makes Right. Doesn't mean it was the best person won.
Information on what they needed to know to do the job is one thing. Everything implies things they don't need to know, like how many forces the Falcons have at that moment, as that would change in the future. Even if the clans are upping production isn't necessary at the time. But I can see part of the issue of why the Dragoons didn't give out tech. Given the wars fought while the Dragoons were in the IS shows they would absolutely try to kill each other with it, and hurt themselves even more. There was no set date to when the clans would invade. And there wasn't any message sent to the Dragoons the invasion was on it's way.
I find it unlikely there weren't copies made of the jump points. Some one would definitely violate orders as they would need a way to get back home if the mission goes south. Unless they changed the text in newer books, I want to say it was suggested they got it fixed in deep space. But here is a side point. Where did they do it? It isn't like you would do that work on dropships or even warships. A station or base is most likely.
So what, if anything, remains of this if it was deep space?
Also, I doubt anyone but the Wolves would have gone out to meet them. Most thought they were disgusting freeborns that couldn't figure out how many apples were in a bushel, much less figure out how many units the IS had or could make.
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Requiem
01/27/20 09:36 PM
1.158.235.15
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Granted, it does look like someone added when it should have subtracted the numbers.
Between the 20 year update 3050 and the Field Manual 3062 we have a span of no more than 12 years, the CC have only a few real BattleMech Manufacturing facilities ….
Sarna.net has their main facilities as ….
Hellespont ‘Mech Works on Sian; and
Earthwerks Incorporated on Grand Base, Calloway VI, Keystone, Tikonov
And yet House Liao Book – Has Earthwerks on Tikonov and Grand Base – Hellespont on Sian – Kallon on Nanking.
Sorry to say but TPTB once more interfered with the game by providing the Capellans with units they were incapable of manufacturing and manufacturing facilities that never existed and they were incapable of building.
So, if the Capellans can manufacture at such prodigious numbers then can anyone explain why the FWL, DC and FC cannot match or outperform them as the CC were considered to possess the least efficient facilities with the entire IS cira. 3040.
There are no writings between 3040 and 3062 that can explain this other than TPTB have manipulated the game for their own ends – that CC empire that which we see in 3150 to replace the pathetic CC post 4th Succession War – and should have been eliminated in 3039.
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Katherine pushed for the fight, as she tried to tighten her control over the FC.
She really didn’t need to push for a fight (as stated above) – Plus remember Katherine’s greatest weapon is not the BattleMech it is the Media and the relationship she has with her people …
This is where the books also become very two dimensional once again – To kill off Victor all you need to do is prove that he has an alliance with the DC – and this can be proven with that of his and Omika’s son – once proven his days of being a FC Lord is all but done!
With proof in hand all she needs do is leak it to every large media organization and Victor’s days as a FC Lord are done!
Starting a civil war here was foolishly written plot development – but TPTB must have their endless war - no matter how badly written it is.
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Not sure how having a child would change his legitimacy for being the ruler
A child provides stability to the realm – as there is now a legitimate successor to the throne.
Victor is the first born and as such he is the legitimate successor when his parents die – and when he dies his first born is considered to be the legitimate successor – the only issue is that Victor and Omika must be married, otherwise the child is a bastard and has no legal standing.
That said – the DC might consider saying that they were married so as to put Victor and Omika’s child on the FC throne in the future - and in the near future a DC / FC alliance and merging of realms (and military) could be considered.
Katherine on the other hand would say the child is a bastard and as such has no legal standing to take the throne.
Thus in the future there could well be a war for the succession of the FC throne when Katherine dies – her successors Vs. Victor’s and Omika’s child – FC Vs. DC.
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Being heir to Hanse and Melissa, makes his legitimacy solid. It does NOT rule out, being overthrown.
Yes he (Victor) is the legitimate successor of the FC – However if his Dukes forsake him, as they would if it could be proven that he had a child with Omika – then he would have to abdicate his and his illegitimate child’s right to the throne – or risk a Civil War between himself and his vassals (who remain loyal) and that of his Dukes who want him gone and support Katherine’s right to rule!
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The courts
Unfortunately the game never really got into this so there is no way of determining how this would play out. Creating a vast and vibrant backdrop of the Battletech universe was never TPTB’s strongpoint.
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Plus it wasn't well know Omi had a child. He only found out with an autopsy report given to him.
You do not need an autopsy report to determine if a woman has given birth!
This again shows a very one dimensional view of the writers ability – during pregnancy the pelvic bones become more elastic and once a woman gives birth her pelvis increases in size – one decent photo of Omi when analyzed will indicate she has given birth, so just go back in time with these photos until you suddenly have a nine month gap and look at who was around at the beginning and what you will find is Victor – then you can just make up the documents / witnesses – as any medical examination that would be ordered to refute it will prove that she has given birth to a child.
All you need to do is let the media feed itself ramping up and up the feeding frenzy until it cannot be denied!
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The PGCs is part of their Trials. Screaming they are illegal suggests you don't understand this.
Really … show me where within the Jade Falcons original bid of 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships where it stated that a PGC was included within the Touman
Refer to Sarna.net – Clan Jade Falcon Touman and the earliest PGC mentioned is in 3054 Phi Galaxy with the 9th and 10th and saying this is legal is saying you could bring in anything and everything you wanted for defensive action from the Clan Home Worlds – so how is this honoring the spirit of the original bid? This is but a "technicality" a political tool by which you get your way it is, and has never been, an act a true paladin would consider or accept.
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The complaints of the trials is this brought to life. Might makes Right. Doesn't mean it was the best person won.
So then, what is a circle of equals within Clan society?
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There was no set date to when the clans would invade. And there wasn't any message sent to the Dragoons the invasion was on it's way.
They were given an order to prepare the IS … they had no idea as to when the Clans would invade, though they knew that they would sooner or later invade given the number of people adopting the Crusader philosophy over time … so what do they do to obey the order given to them …. absolutely nothing comes to mind here! So how does this help the IS?
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I find it unlikely there weren't copies made of the jump points.
It comes down to how good the security is on every ship the Dragoons had when they took to the Exodus Road and the IS.
Yes I agree a space station is likely …and it is still out there ready to be found and used once more …. or was used by one of the Clans during the invasion as a supply relay station for the front lines ....
so my Fenrir forces could find it and maybe even take it .... what goodies could be found within its computer core with regards to the Dragoons - what security video files could there be? <Possible new story arc that could lead your forces from the depths of the Dark Periphery all the way to Outreach itself and the Dragoons themselves>
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disgusting freeborns
? – ComStar Explorer Corp. ? or one of the few remaining explorer corps. that are beyond the Periphery looking for new worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/28/20 12:07 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue might be that Calloway and Keystone are in FWL at 3050 and 3063 according to the wiki. Now sure if they were suggesting that is where the factories owned by Earthwerks or not.
Nanking was part of the FS/FC for both those time periods as well. 3079 is the little time it spent in the CC again, then went to the ROTS.
So something is very wrong with this picture entirely.
Having a full media control was how she got away with pushing people and worlds up until a point where enough had been destroyed by her to find out the truth. People believe the pretty face over the local lords that tax them and they don't see much in return, even though that pretty face is the one taking the taxes from the local lords. It's how the media works. The Don Henley song Dirty Launder sums that up well.
The birth. It is the way Victor found out he had a child. Otherwise, he didn't even know that, and he was working with Comstar for a long while. The Pillar of Order or your Spirit cats may well have hidden the birth from others. The autopsy was given to Victor as a courtesy of the DC government. How well it was kept, I don't know.
Maybe the idea of what a bid is, has you confused. The bid is the forces you will use to fight for the object. After the battle is over, so is the bid. Hope that simplifies this.
Might does not mean you are right. The circle of equals means someone won or lost or both lost. It does NOT determine if you are able to do a job, or what ever. It just says you won or lost the priviledge to say you are.
The Dragoon's were the disgusting Freeborns in that statement. Except for Clan Wolf and a few members of the other clans, they did not believe the Dragoons should have been sent. Their idea would have shown them as outsiders almost immediately, as most trueborns can't hold their tongue for a long time around those they believe are inferior.
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Requiem
01/28/20 01:28 AM
1.158.235.15
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So something is very wrong with this picture entirely.
Agree …. The numbers are all wrong, there is no way the CC could have generated all these additional forces in such a short period of time.
There is something very wrong when it comes to the TO&E of the CC circa. 3062.
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Having a full media control
A lot can be said about Katherine – her ability to manipulate the media is one of her strong assets.
It’s a shame she didn’t use it more often against Victor – he is so out of his depth when it comes to the media.
This is why I suggested that rater than using the assassin she informs the IS of Victor & Omika’s Child – Born sometime around August 3060 – Remember she informed Victor in a round-about way (that he didn’t pick up on) that she was with child when he left to join the 2nd IS fleet that was on its way to Huntress (Late Nov. Early Dec 3059) …. And then The Great Refusal (so + 9 months = August 3060 or there about)
This is where sara.net Wiki Kitsune Kurita made a mistake he was not born in 3063 it must have been somewhere around August of 3060.
And the FedCom Civil War began November 3062. – so Kitsune would be a little over 2 years old …
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Maybe the idea of what a bid is, has you confused. The bid is the forces you will use to fight for the object. After the battle is over, so is the bid.
May be I don’t understand all the enounces …
The bid: Terra
The Forces: As given above (That do not include PGCs)
The Time Limit: ?
Since they (The Clans) never reached Terra when does the bid end? As they began bringing in PGCs in 3054 when they were still fighting to enlarge their invasion corridor. When is OK to bring them in as the needed ilKhan’s OK to allow this …
Sarna.net wiki – Ulric Kerensky “Leo Showers attempted to slow the Wolf Clan's progress by refusing them the use of Provisional Garrison Clusters, which were technically not part of the invasion bids. But PGCs were traditionally not part of the bidding process, as they were usually only used in defense. Also, his own Smoke Jaguars were already using the second-line troops, and the other Clans were requesting they be allowed to use them. Challenged by Ulric on these points, Showers was forced to back down, allowing the Wolf Clan PGCs to begin taking positions throughout their ever-growing occupation zone.”
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It does NOT determine if you are able to do a job
Trial of position …to become a warrior….. the blooding;
Trial of position … to obtain a Promotion……sarna.net wiki Trial of Position
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The Dragoon's
And yet Natasha is trueborn Iron Womb child.
And gaining invaluable reconnaissance information is considered a basic tenant of all military strategy ….and yes there was contempt for them being sent in the first place. The mission was given to the lowly freeborn.
And yet how was the information received at the time …. And then once they had invaded they may have realized the information supplied was not all that useless they thought it to be.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/28/20 12:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Here is another equipment loop hole. How is it a mech's fusion core heats up while the mech is moving, but a vehicle doesn't? To my knowledge it is the same engine?
As stated in my last post, Callaway and Keystone are not in the CC, but in the FWL. This alone means anything made here would not send their entire production to the CC, even if the DC demanded it. So someone got the locations or number under the wrong house.
The bid ended when the clans were defeated on their home worlds. But it does ask, did the truce affect it in any way?
I can see where it might be seen that each world taken, could not be garrsoned with the PGC as the bid for the invasion was running, but I don't think the clans really had that large of a campaign, where they took multiple worlds or had a long running combat. I want to says the closets in the history we see is the refusal trials the Wolves fought against the invasion, though the refusal war would be the second.
Having the skills to fight in a battle, doesn't mean you have the skills to lead or even control units in that battle. Those two Trials of Position is one warrior on one warrior, with the 3 arrayed against the one fighting one on one. Unless the petitioner attacks multiple mech, or passes them, they will not shoot the pettitioner. The best shot in the world isn't likely to be able to even plan a mission with all the details. They might be able to learn after a while.
As stated, the clans had sent in others to recon the IS. Most of the Khans would have viewed the information with suspicion, as they doubted the Dragoons would be able to do the job, such as not knowing what to look for. Now Wolfnet's information would be a little bettter recieved. The Dragoons would basically support what Wolfnet had said.
I say this as Wolfnet found out facts that not even some closest to the source knew. Also, the Dragoons wouldn't know the troop positions of their employer on the other side of their realms, and possibly even in the military district they were in.
As for Natasha and informing your troops, you do not tell them that they will hit say the Falcons in order to upset the Jaguars. Even when she was a star Colonel, that was outside of the information required to do her job. BUT, that doesn't mean those that were freindly to her, wouldn't say more then they were supposed to.
Actually, the example would be very likely to the rest of the Dragoons.
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Requiem
01/28/20 06:09 PM
1.158.235.15
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How is it a mech's fusion core heats up while the mech is moving, but a vehicle doesn't?
Sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology – Engine Cooling System
“Fusion engines also have their own integral cooling system in addition to their regenerative cooling systems. These other cooling systems are separate from the rest of the 'Mech's Heat sink network. Liquid nitrogen jackets are used over key components, which allows minimal engine operations without having to activate the external Heat Sink systems. Any more use of the engine requires the larger cooling capacity of the main Heat sink and regenerative systems.”
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The bid ended when the clans were defeated on their home worlds.
OK – The Great Refusal was fought on 23 April, 3060.
Clan Wolf – Garrison Clusters – Epsilon Galaxy (3051-52)
Clan Ghost Bear – Kappa, Xi, Omicron, Pi Galaxy (3059)
Clan Jade Falcon – Phi Galaxy (3054) Epsilon, Lambda, Mu Galaxy (3059)
Clan Smoke Jaguar – Garrison Clusters – Zeta, Kappa, Nu, Psi, Omega Galaxy (3052 – 59)
Clan Nova Cat Touman – Garrison Clusters – Xi, Omicron Galaxy (3054) Chi Provisional Garrison (3054-59) PGCs (3060) Zeta Provision Galaxy (3062)
Clan Diamond Shark Touman – No PGCs, No Garrison Clusters
The majority of which is before 3059…..
(I would also like to point out the the Jaguars were supposed to have introduced PGCs before that of the Wolves - and yet the sarna.net wiki does not support this - is there an error somewhere in this data?)
Tyra Miraborg slammed her Shilone into the Dire Wolf on 31 October 3050 – however this only required a new ilKhan to the invasion ….so how could this necessitate the addition of PGCs?
My thinking regarding the bid – Each Clan Bid has a certain amount of units to fight their way from the start line to Terra, where they will battle whomever is guarding it, for the right to be called the ilClan. This Bid included all forces necessary not only to fight your way through, but to also Garrison the worlds your forces conquered within your Invasion Corridor - thus keeping them open and secure.
So how can you break the bid and ask for more Garrison units if they were not included in the original bid?
The original bid was supposed to include all Garrison units!
Why do they need additional forces – mathematically the opening bids DO NOT WORK to continue the invasion and at the same time Garrison every world conquered.
As shown previously when doing the mathematics based upon the original bid numbers. To garrison every world captured with a minimum of a Trinary unit every Clan runs out of their units available forces to continue the war way before they even get close to Terra. (I completed a full Excel sheet for the Jade Falcons, and it showed me that it did not work, even when you assume their numbers remain at 100% constantly – No battle casualties whatsoever!)
Thus we have the idea that Clan’s are allowed a “Technicality” to bring in additional forces - PGCs / Garrison Clusters - to allow them to garrison worlds in the rear so that it will free up enough front line forces to continue their advance / continue their Invasion to possibly conquer Terra.
Why? TPTB did not think it through when they came up with the original bid numbers. So they created a patch to get around this error – even if it means violating the rules they created for their Clans. So, the invasion was not thought through before TPTB began publishing books and once they found the error a band aid was decided to fix it in the form of a “Technicality”.
This does not surprise me – over half of the FC forces does missing, 20% of the DCMS is gone, the CC are given an additional 60% to their military that makes no sense whatsoever! The Mathematics of every House and every Clan is not working from 3050 onwards – it is like it is just made up with no real validity behind it! The mathematics of the game does not even come close to explain how the clans can retain fighting with their available numbers when they have Sibko system as a reinforcement system. In reality their sibko system works well for Clan wars on their Home Worlds using a bidding system – but once you move this system to the meat grinder of a total war system within the IS their Sibko system just falls over – so, when will common sense work here?
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Having the skills to fight in a battle, doesn't mean you have the skills to lead or even control units in that battle.
Correct … and this is where the Clans (and the Game) falls down again … their system of gaining promotions is through combat, this means that the most vicious and most deadly combatant wins promotions, no matter their experience in combat. They do not favor the person who demonstrated the greatest intellectual capacity, the person who understands unique tactics and strategies / understanding logistics when fighting a war … etc. Their entire premise of thought when it comes to warriors is younger is better … older (more experience) should be kicked to the side …
Whereas the IS system (for the most part) people are promoted who have a very long track record of excellence, people who understand every nuance including logistics … The older may not be on the front line but their experience is invaluable when conducting war.
The Clan system is suited for very fast shock and awe tactics …. but when a Clan force is bogged down in a protracted battle the inexperience of the Clans hierarchy should be shown to quite ineffective, and yet this is never shown within the game. Why? Wouldn’t this disrupt TPTB overarching plans to establish massive Clan Empires with the IS by 3150? Again I am not impressed with this two dimensional writing of the Clan Invasion. Post year of Peace there should have been a WW2 Italy – Albert Kesselring – Campaign from then on, and yet what do we get?, more of the same …. again, I am not impressed with the limited writing ….
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As stated, the clans had sent in others to recon the IS.
So, can anyone explain how these “others” received a complete exodus road map? And how did they keep under the radar whist within the IS … also what would happen if the Dragoons noticed them and knew who hey were? Confirmation of information is very difficult – the Dragoons have access to Great House’s Information – Unknown “others” do not have this access … sorry but I do not see these others confirming much of the Information supplied by the Dragoons, they have been within the IS for over half a century and understand the IS …. These “others” appear to be short timers, any information they gather would be heavily blinkered as to what each of their Clans want to find in the IS and not what the IS really is …..
I would also like to ask didn’t anyone ever go rogue and want to stay in the IS as the Dragoons did – so why didn’t they tell someone? Someone like Uncle Chandy would have taken them (Clan defector) seriously ….. or did the Dragoons have an assassination squad to keep people from going "rogue"?
Question – was Wolfnet a separate unit or were they attached to the Dragoons as part of the Dragoons?
As for Natasha – she was brought up on charges of treason when she returned to the Clans.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/28/20 06:26 PM)
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ghostrider
01/28/20 07:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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I left out the vehicles FUSION engine doesn't heat up. Walk/cruise +1 heat, Run/flank +2 heat. It can't be friction from the parts moving, otherwise distance would determine that. Urbanmech 2/3. Spider 8/12.
It may be that the clans figured out their inability to continue the war after Tyra did her suicide run. I would also suspect that the clans started losing more units when getting deeper into the IS. Better defenses as well as better units more often showing up.
A thought to ponder. Blood names would be where the viciousness is at peak. It is those warriors who passes on the genes to future warriors. Promotions aren't so bad, as it seems the pilot starts off with a bigger mech then the first warrior he faces, or has in the novels.
Might want to look at it as the evolution of the clans from the inexperienced long term fighters, to the packs that they seem to devolve into, was the main story arc for the clans. Corrupting influences in the IS would do that. Also, reading the stories, the clans were already shifting to lies and dishonorable tactics to win fights.
First off, thinking they got a road map may well be completely wrong. Simple dropping off the agents in the periphery and having them go from there, would mean no one has the maps but the jumpships that went back home.
I would think more then a few went rogue, as the lure of luxury tends to destroy peoples motives. Wiether the Dragoons had some or if there were roving ones sent by the clans is interesting. But doubt it. Anyone smart enough to do recon would know that saying anything about the descendants of Kerensky would get them arrested and tortured.
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Requiem
01/28/20 09:00 PM
1.158.235.15
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vehicles FUSION engine
Again …understanding how it works please read …. Sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology …. As how an engine works doesn’t change if it is in a ‘Mech or a vehicle.
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It may be that the clans figured out their inability to continue the war after Tyra did her suicide run.
Yes, this can be considered plausible … none of the khans believed in the Dragoon Reports and ,as a consequence, they under bided in an effort to be allowed to be part of the Operation Revival … so now they needed to call upon their reserves to ensure their forces reach the target world of Terra. <The problem is this was “Technically” against the bidding process – and as everyone was in the same boat everyone agreed to ignore the rules>
However, if they had looked at a simple star chart and had given the idea of garrisoning worlds any thought whatsoever they must have realized they would need a vast garrison army - even if it was only a Trinary (Triad – one star each ‘Mech, Elementals and Aerospace) per world.
I would have also asked how they thought they could control a world with populations in the billions with only such a limited force?
I can only assume that every clan was blinkered by their own society - based upon the Caste System – they must have assumed that every person who was not of the warrior caste was a lamb to be bossed around – they would just do as they are told, as they do on the clan home worlds.
Oh! How wrong they were!
If an entire world wants you gone …. You really need a vast infantry force (hopefully backed up with vehicles, ‘Mechs and aerospace) to hold all critical points upon a single world. (Especially when you attempt to change IS culture to Clan Culture – Fostering for example)
Plus when you bring in the idea of IS ‘commando forces’ raiding such a limited garrison the need for additional ground security support will become even more important.
Then when you tack on the idea of replacement personnel from Sibkos – the idea of keeping you people alive as the Loss Depletion Report increases indicates that over time you could have a problem when it comes to replacement personnel.
<There is also the side issue of what happens when a closed society meets an open society – especially with regards to the non-warrior caste members assigned to assist the warriors on garrison duty>
<Plus the idea that ComStar would assist the Clans with administrating world right from the start is completely in error – there must have been a period between when the invasion started to when ComStar began assisting the Clans>
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I would also suspect that the clans started losing more units when getting deeper into the IS. Better defenses as well as better units more often showing up.
You would have thought that this was the case, but the canon writing doesn’t support this assumption
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Blood names would be where the viciousness is at peak.
I am in agreement …. Viciousness within battle would become a character trait …. It is a wonder they didn’t produce more psychopaths!
There is also one point missing, when and who are allowed to challenge for a promotion? Is it only in times of when your superior shows weakness / looses a battle? Otherwise once you have earned the rank you cannot be challenged for it?
As if you allowed a challenge to be called any time your own forces would pretty much decimate the Clan in a bid to gain a higher rank – anarchy would rain supreme.
Although after a serious loss the remaining Clan Unit could turn on itself – accusations of cowardness would be rife within any Clan Unit as individuals would see this as a way to gain a promotion – they could decimate whatever is remaining in a bid for rank – remember they are supposed to be Mongol and any weakness / loss will not be tolerated – it must be excruciated less it affect the whole.
Thus when the IS starts winning how would the Clan survivors take it – who would take the blame for the loss and how will they rid themselves of such a taint?
Unfortunately the writing is once more two dimensional on this point ….
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Corrupting influences in the IS
This is what happens when you are conditioned to believe you are the best … and then you are beaten by those you once considered your inferiors ….. anger has a way of eating you out from the inside, leaving only base anger aimed at your tormentor ….
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the clans were already shifting to lies and dishonorable tactics to win fights
This is understandable, they would sooner or later have realized that in order to stay alive they would have to adapt to the IS way of war.
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road map
How does your unit get around within the IS?
How do they get back to be picked up for their ride home – as punctuality would be required?
What if the Jump-ship was captured?
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going rogue
Yes a few would go rogue …. The question of the technical expertise and knowledge should be considered … and yes to remain free they would have to keep their mouth shut in regards to the Clans, however sooner or later someone should have been caught and interrogated … it comes down to the interrogator and if they believe what they are being told.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/28/20 10:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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No. But a fusion run vehicle doesn't build up heat. A moving mech does. Why?
Now probably was the issue. Most of the Khans thought the IS people would cower from the clans might, so they would not need garrison troops. They were used to their own citizens. Yes. They were that out of touch with the IS practices.
Did they change a nova to triad?
If I know right, you can challenge for any rank, though most would not try to jump from warrior to Khan in a single action, but there were exceptions. I believe they were even able to challenge to use specific mechs. But they had to be approved by the higher ups, to avoid unnecessary waste.
The Jade Phoenix series had the commanders on Tukayyid for the Jade Falcons arguing who got the limited artillery to take some bridges. The might well be an example of the chaos starting.
I want to say the shift to lying started before the invasion, though took off once they got some IS populations under wing. All clans, not just the Falcon... underwing 
I don't think they were worried about a jumpship being captured when bringing in the earlier scouts. I believe they got concerned with the large invasion forces. I would think standing orders for these scouts would be self destruct. It may well be, they had several ships wasted in sitting at rendevous points in order to do another leg of the trip. Not likely as it would be considered a waste. One idea might be the clans were pirates that dropped of the operatives during raids, with planetary systems being hacked to add in the agents as natives.
The idea of sending back information might be several things. First would be transmissions, like a jumpship sends out a code to a pager type set up to say 'hey, we are in system', to having a dropships meet them in the dead of the night situations. Not sure.
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Requiem
01/29/20 12:10 AM
1.158.235.15
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No. But a fusion run vehicle doesn't build up heat. A moving mech does. Why?
My Assumption: Can only be the energy requirements, to move a vehicle you require very little energy (even at max. speed and over a long distance). Whereas to move a ‘Mech ….
Refer to the following ….
Sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology – sub heading Myomers – “…they have fairly high internal electrical resistance, which causes them to be roughly as wasteful of energy as natural muscle or internal combustion engines. Much of the energy required to activate a Myomer is simply converted into waste heat. Myomer bundles are laced with a network of flexible tubing carrying coolant fluids to and from the BattleMech's Heat Sink system to dispose of this waste heat.”
Question: what would happen if rather than developing a triple strength myomer you came up with a less resistant / less heat producing myomer. A myomer that could reduce the need for many of the Heat sinks required. Has anyone undertaken research into this?
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Did they change a nova to triad?
Under sarna.net wiki Trinary is where you find the term Triad – one star each ‘Mech, Elementals and Aerospace.
This is what I would assume would be the basic garrison force non-critical (important) worlds – such as agricultural / mining worlds – Worlds the Clans believe the lowest form of IS Caste workers reside, people who can be easily converted.
During the initial stages of the war – when you desperately require examples of their tech to examine / and to reverse engineer – why wouldn’t you send forces against these worlds (attacking their flank).
It has three main advantages for the House Unit …
First, It allows your scientists / engineers examples of Clan tech as well as the possibility of POWs for intelligence gathering;
Second, The Clan in question will have to send a relief force to take up the position of the Triad that has been taken out – this also means the available front line numbers decreases; and
Third, It sends a message to the people on the captured planet – we have not forgotten you – we are still fighting to free you! (increasing partisan activity).
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f I know right, you can challenge for any rank
This policy could very easily lead to anarchy – there must be additional rules that have yet to be published to ensure there is some form of sanity when it comes to making a challenge.
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bringing in the earlier scouts.
Yes they could have brought in earlier scouts. The issue is how do they remain incognito (what was their cover story)? And what information were they after? And which Houses were they to visit (Time taken within the IS)?
Plus considering the lack of Jumpships in the latter years how do you introduce a new Jumpship – registry of all know Jumpships would be known. … this could pose a problem ….
Plus, it wasn’t until the Clan Invasion did they transfer their HPG ships to form a relay from Clan Space to the IS – so no communication back to Clan space via HPG – all intelligence gathered would have to be physically transferred back to the Clan Home Worlds for analysis (6 months plus travel time).
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… whilst on intelligence gathering missions…
A thought also occurred to me – any unit that is being sent on an intelligence mission will be under the command (not Liaison if mercenary) of an intelligence officer. This could make for some interesting problems, especially if you draw the short end of the stick and end up with a real <censored> Officer who thinks they know everything and puts your unit in harms way.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/29/20 12:30 AM
66.74.60.165
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The suspension factor was supposed to deal with the easier movement. But again. The heat isn't based on how far you moved.
So a spider or locust builds up less heat then an Urbanmech. Length of leg doesn't have any effects on this, so moving the same amount of times with longer legs, does not make it faster.
And if it was true that the vehicles don't have as much energy needed to move it then a smaller fusion engine could be used.
Wouldn't the TSM be about the same thing? It needs heat, but it produces 3 times the power of a normal myomar. Not sure if speed is affected, but a lighter weight muscular system should be useful. I can see some research in this area have something come up.
Ok. They added aerofighter into the mix, making the triad.
The issues is getting away with the items to research. But this is one area that seems to be artificially kept out of the IS hands. They can refit a unit with Clan parts, but not make them. There was one thing that said the IS techs didn't have the training to work on them, so most of the units that had it, fell into disrepair and was non functional. I can believe that for a short while. Still sounds like bs like building the tech after 100 years.
The trial of Grievance can be declared against any one at any time. Most are not restricted by the high command. So refusal, possession and position aren't much different, though they are more limited by the high command. Most do retain some form of military respect, so only do so with position when they are authorized. But I believe you can do refusal or grievance if the high command lets you, against the denial of a position challenge. Most are to show you are ready for the high command to give you a better rank.
The issue with clan recon is who would do so? Trueborns would refuse as well as show up as arrogant people, that would bring attention to themselves. Freeborns wouldn't really be trusted so much. Training is another thing, as the invasion clans seem to be unable to do individual recon. The watch is a very good case showing that. The only thing I can think of is Clan Wolf is the only clan that seems capable of using such personnel. Identifying targets with in a few months of being in the IS, for the Dragoons bringing in the unit sounds wrong. It would require a lot more time to infiltrate some areas they got intel from. Other then that is the way it was written.
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Requiem
01/29/20 01:45 AM
1.158.235.15
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… vehicles don't have as much energy needed to move it, then a smaller fusion engine could be used.
Yes I agree vehicles should have a smaller engine requirement than that of ‘Mech.
Just remember to put something in that can run the energy requirements for the energy weapons, whist moving a flank speed.
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The issue is getting away with the items …
Our POA are these small clan outposts ….
They should not be “artificially” kept out of IS hands. Why? In the game there is a disparity between the IS and the Clans in regards to weapons technology. Small Objective Raids like this could have been used to allow players to obtain Clan Tech with a successful mission.
ie. remember the small adventure books that were produced way back in the early days - such as Snord’s Irregulars – something like this would make for an excellent small book adventure pack. And if you want to keep them functional – then why not add the chance of obtaining some Clan non-warriors who become your Isorla and agree to become part of “your Clan” – over time they could even come to realize the IS’s way of life is better and they want to help others leave the clans (Second book?)
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The trial of Grievance can be declared against any one at any time.
I agree position would require authorization to proceed – otherwise there would be anarchy within the ranks.
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The issue with clan recon is who would do so?
There is only one – Wolfnet would have to go – for an intelligence mission you need intelligence operatives ….
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….. Harvest Trials / Harvest Wars ….
Considering that I have shown there is major problem with regards to Clan garrisons and how they need additional infantry to adequately support garrison units, can I suggest sometime after the one year peace some of the Invading Clan’s Khans decide to initiate Harvest Trials upon Home Clans elementals as a means of rapidly increasing their strength. At the same time a massive increase in the number of elemental sibkos are have also been initiated to ensure the Clans can maintain a very high elemental population within the IS clans (far more than ever considered necessary).
What I am considering is something similar to what occurred in 3057 when Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon sought to rapidly regain their strength.
But in this case massive elemental numbers are required to ensure civil compliance upon IS worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
01/29/20 06:24 AM
1.158.235.15
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Can anyone say the Harvest wars are NOT favoritism to the Falcons and the Wolves? Here we have two clans that have badly mauled each other – and yet they are allowed to “Harvest” enough forces (men and material) so as to return to their original levels, and within a very short period of time, so as to make sure they can form their empires by 3150.
And yet when the Fed Suns and Lyrans have a Civil war at the same time, and are supposed to be as just as banged up as the Falcons / Wolves, they are not allowed / provided time to rebuild as was just “GIVEN TO” their pet clans.
So can anyone say this is not favoritism by TPTB for the Clans over the IS once more?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/29/20 12:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe an example might help for the Fusion engine thing.
A Shrek PPC carrier. To use the 3 ppcs, you need the 10 in the fusion engine, and 20 more.
Now. If the Shrek moves and fires it does NOT heat up one or two points depending on cruise/flank speed.30 heat for ppcs, not heat for moving unit. Strip that engine out of the PPC and put it in a mech, and just take one step. Already you produce one heat point.
Also, the engine gains 2 additional layers of protecting to it, as a single hit does not destroy it as it does in a vehicle.
Clan personnel becoming to like the IS, that they would rather stay and fight against their own. Hmmm.. Sounds a lot like the Wolfs Dragoons. But luxury and the lands of plenty tends to corrupt most people into wanting to stay there.
Thinking on this, it may well be their clan upbringing as to why they really didn't help get the IS going when they first got in. They may have believed the IS was the paradise taken over by demons and fought out otherwise.
Also, it may well be that the Dragoons left some notes or clues to League caches, hoping to help them get the tech up to resist the clans. Other little things like that without saying they were from the clans.
There was nothing written about any Wolfnet spies being caught. So there should have been a lot of things going on in the background.
Would be interesting if it turned out one of the Wolfnet agents was caught by comstar, and that is how the Outbound Light found Huntress Basically told the clans were x light years past the DC/LC border. Or even just truthfully said they were descendants, causing Comstar to increase their efforts.
I could say look at the harvest wars from the other side. It may well be the other clans were that bad, that the experience in the IS, allowed the two to do so much better. Might also be looked at how desperate the two clans were. Taking 'inferior' warriors just to garrison worlds.
But I will say it was the story line to have the Falcons and Wolves running rampant in the IS. So they had to come up with something the even approaches a smart fix. Favoritism may not be the right word. It doesn't seem like it would happen, but then the whole SL/Succession wars doesn't seem right. There are a lot of missed opportunities the developers could have done to make the game that much better, but failed.
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Requiem
01/29/20 06:51 PM
1.158.235.15
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….. Fusion engine thing ….
Vehicle – standard engine and heat sinks;
‘Mech – Engine must go into a housing that provides two additional layers of protection – Myomers then provide the additional heat whilst moving.
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Clan personnel becoming to like the IS, that they would rather stay and fight against their own.
Isn’t this why a psychological warfare unit is established? Take resources / knowledge from the Clans and then give it to the IS – prove evidence to other Non-Warrior Castes that their way of life is flawed and yet the IS way of life is correct.
Similar to defections during the Cold War era.
And yes I agree Clan indoctrination (when they are young) would be very difficult to combat – however, that said do the Clan’s allow their Non-Warrior Caste members holidays / access to the variety of entertainment diversions the IS allows its citizens? If not the IS entertainment diversions could pull them away from their Clan upbringing.
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T he Dragoons left some notes or clues to League caches, hoping to help them get the tech up to resist the clans.
Question: How can League cashes help the IS – first they would need to know how to re-engineer the equipment and then get into mass production prior to the Clan Invasion (How many years would this take?) – second when the Clans have technology that is in advance of League technology how is this not putting a band-aid over a hole in the dike wall?
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there should have been a lot of things going on in the background.
Agree …
Yes, I agree it would make for an interesting story that the reason the Outbound Light was so far beyond the reaches of the IS was because they had captured a Clan spy. It would also explain why they went that way (why they were looking in that general area) in the first place when you consider Kerenski’s original exit point.
There must have been something / Someone that provided ComStar with the idea of looking where they did.
There must be something missing from the story – or the story needs to be expanded upon.
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….Harvest Wars ….
Sarna.net wiki – Harvest Trials …..
Wolf
3057 – The “New” Clan Wolf led by Vlad harvested troops from Clan Smoke Jaguar; This would have required of him to either go through the Ghost Bears or go around with a very large force – thus at this stage the Wolf Wolds within the Invasion corridor were under strength in their garrisons. Why didn’t the IS attack now? This is the war of 3039 all over again when the FC attacked the DC when they should have attacked the CC.
You might say the IS didn’t know – and I will reply Black Box technology and the idea of partisans / IS spies / IS commandoes / Clan Wolf in exile spies within the new Clan Wolf and upon Clan Home Worlds. Word of their weakening should have gotten out –
So,What about Smoke Jaguar Territory – the inference is that the Wolves harvested Jaguar units – so Wolf troop numbers goes up and Jaguar troops numbers goes down – Why didn’t the DC attack vulnerable worlds at this time to retake lost worlds – how many of these worlds had Clan factories on them that could be used for the benefit of the DCMS if they attacked then and there?
There is a problems when you look at the Wolf harvesting – for a time their worlds are vulnerable and yet no one attacks; there is a problem with the Jaguar worlds are vulnerable and yet no one attacks;
What is going on here? … comparisons with the CC and the war of 3039 are readily available here!
Falcon
3057 – Clan Jade Falcon led by Marthe decide to “graduating many of her sibkos early and launching a dramatic incursion into the Lyran Alliance in 3058”
She does realize that her sibkos are not an IS school graduation class … they must go through their Trial of position … so how many warriors will graduate in any reality (that is unless she cheats and allows more to graduate than should have) …. And then invades Coventry! …. How many of these green warriors survived? …. Long term wouldn’t it have been better to allow then more time to graduate correctly and then season them over time so as to grow your forces into a large an effective Touman?
So whilst a majority of her forces were away from their Invasion Corridor Worlds why didn’t Victor attack this target rather than Coventry – how many important worlds (with Clan factories on them) could he have taken from the Falcons. At which time Marthe would have to retreat from Coventry – allowing the Lyran Alliance to retake Coventry.
And then we both Khans were called to the Clan Home Wolds for Trial of Absorptions, this seems to be a correct decision by their fellow Clans – both Wolf and Falcon are now weak and the weak are prey for the strong!
And then we are expected to believe the Council allowed then to get off on this charge … this is a complete load of BS!
And then it gets worse …” The temptation of a chance at glory in the Inner Sphere to those units who would give their allegiance to Clans Wolf or Jade Falcon proved too much for hundreds of warriors, who deluged both Clans with preemptive batchalls for Trials of Possession which they then proceeded to allow themselves to lose.”
Really? … this is so completely unbelievable …. All it is, is TPTB allowing both Falcon and Wolf to return to their previous undamaged Touman through a manner that can be considered the most unbelievable and illogical action by Clan Warriors.
Both Wolf and Falcon have failed, they have become weak, they have become prey, you do not add your strength to prey … you attack and devour prey …. The Trail of Absorption should have been allowed in full if you wanted the Falcon / Wolves to return to their original numbers. In one form or another.
Not impressed with the writing here … it is favoring some-ones pet Clans once again! Look at the reasons why each Clan is happy to be rid of these warriors to the Falcon / Wolves … it smacks not of the military but of the political …
Sorry to say but I find the entire Harvest Trial saga to be too far-fetched, it is not the Clan way!
Once more we have “missed opportunities” that make no sense whatsoever.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/29/20 07:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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The idea is that if the IS leaders get enough League tech, they could reverse engineer them without worrying too much about losing one or two. Given the IS has that many more warriors as well as vehicles, it would have improved their chances then just the 3025 tech. Also, they could well have improved on the League tech as well. Not saying it was a sure fire thing, but it is something. Even having the advanced units themselves would help a little. The Padilla Arrow IV tank being a good one.
Marthe pulling the sikcos out early would be a violation of traditions, though I can see the work around as they would prove themselves warriors by hitting the IS. If they survive, then that is their trial. Wether it holds water or not is the question.
So become a warrior you have to kill a mech, 2 to become a star Commander, and 3 for a star captain. Now I don't know if the rules say it has to be a CLAN mech or not. Underhanded? Yes. Cheating? I will have to say no. But that does lead to the question of reinforcements being delayed, as their planned ones were pulled out early. Does this mean it was become standard?
Also, it may disqualify those warriors from attaining blood names.
The novels suggested they Falcons kept pulling back when they should have kept going. They thought it was like a live fire training regiment. Guess it was.
As for a counter attack, I think the truce may have been why it didn't happen. To attack the clans from below the Line might have caused the clans to cancel the truce. I know I seen that in a few books.
Where does it say the clans built factories on worlds taken during the 3052 to 3060s? I know the Ghost bears didn't update the ones they got from the FRR, as they thought it wasn't worth it. So they used the normal output as target practice.
I do agree those warriors would not simply surrender, as that would mean they are inferior. The clans they came from would definitely challenge the invasion clans, if for nothing else, the ability to send their clans in to do what they could not. Otherwise, they would have tried to absorb them. Hence they weren't up to the weakened clans they faced.
And in the history of the clans that I know of, there has not been anything like this. Unless they want to say Absorbtion can be done with as small as a star. But this sounds unlikely.
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Requiem
01/29/20 10:20 PM
1.158.235.15
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League tech, they could reverse engineer.
Yes I agree that League Tech would help the IS …. but to do it effectively they (the IS) would need them in vast numbers.
Massive amounts of refit packages PRIOR TO the invasion would be required, or even the idea of shields would have been a start.
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Marthe pulling the sikcos out early would be a violation of traditions
… and yet she did it! … and no one complained.
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Now I don't know if the rules say it has to be a CLAN mech or not.
Here I would refer to the anime re: The 1st Somerset Strikers – the captured IS warrior was given a trial of position against Adam Steiner (IS) to become a Clan Jade Falcon Warrior– thus Clan Warriors can undergo a trial of position against either a Clan or IS ‘Mech.
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As for a counter attack, I think the truce may have been why it didn't happen.
Canon
Lyran Forces were so scattered they were incapable of moving to Coventry at that time ….
Victor formed a multi-national task force to fight the Clans on Coventry …
He then initiated a Clan bid
<in the background Vlad was threatening the Falcons to assist Katherine>
So when he offered them Hegira (Honorable withdrawal) they took it.
This led to the first Whittling Conference …. And the reforming of the SLDF
What I would like to ask is why Victor went to Coventry?
To be a great military leader you go straight for the Jugular, you do not stuff around on side battles. For that is what Coventry is, it is a side battle – The real battle lies within the Clan Invasion corridor – it is taking away their most important military industrial complexes (denying them the ability to wage war by removing their ability to manufacture consumables and spare parts). If victor had taken and held these worlds the future ability of Clan Jade Falcon to wage an effective war in the future would have been in jeopardy, and this is the real war!
With this victory beneath his belt he could then have called for the first meeting to reform the SL and the SLDF.
As for Coventry – Mythe could either attempt to hold Coventry or she could move as quickly as possible back to the Invasion corridor – Leaving behind any sizeable force would limit her response back in the Invasion Corridor – so she is stuck between a rock and a hard place as to what forces she will leave on Coventry (if any) – and as such the Lyrans should be able to transfer enough forces to engage and win against anything that remains.
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As for a counter attack, I think the truce may have been why it didn't happen. To attack the clans from below the Line might have caused the clans to cancel the truce.
Any attack would come from Arc-Royal – so no problem there – and as from attacking below the line, this refers to the Clans – they are not allowed to attack any world below the line – however that does not stop an IS force to attack a Clan held world from below.
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Where does it say the clans built factories on worlds taken during the 3052 to 3060s?
Objective raids would be my first guess …. There is no way the Clans would not retrofit all IS military industrial factories captured (especially those who manufacture consumables) as you cannot rely upon the Clan Home Worlds to manufacture everything (and in the numbers required) and then send it to the IS (6 month trip) … there is no way your logistics could stand this type of stupidity.
So taking these away would damage any future adventurism by the Falcons until they can obtain a new source of consumables and spare parts.
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I know the Ghost bears didn't update the ones they got from the FRR, as they thought it wasn't worth it. So they used the normal output as target practice.
Really? …. So what happened when they decided to transfer their entire population to the IS?
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…. they would have tried to absorb them. Hence they weren't up to the weakened clans they faced.
Yes this is the only logical next step at this stage …. Any weakened Clan must be challenged for their right to exist, less inferior genes be allowed to remain within the body of the Clans, and this cannot be tolerated!
The fight must of significant scope so as to reflect the gravity of the situation … a proxy site could have been chosen, such as a Deep Periphery World. Though this again would weaken their IS corridor worlds and invite an attack by the IS against any under-defended world.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/31/20 03:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the IS recovered some League tech in say 3025, and started producing it, do you think that would have changed even the 4th war, much less 3039 and the clan war? I would think so. Just double sinks would have done that.
Granted, the newer units would look far different then what they do now, as what was found would change what is used. One nation finding ERPPCs, while another having Streaks, with the 3rd having pulse tech would do wonders to shake up the IS. A gauss rifle would cause some major imbalance.
Marthe and her choices not being complained about could be several factors. The clans wouldn't care, as they would be poor warriors at best, meaning the Falcons would have been priming themselves for absorbsion. With this, they don't really tell other clans that they can or can't do this, beyond trials.
Outside of the game, most don't really care that much about little things like this, as they are more worried about things like new weapons, or coming up with the best ubermech.
Victor's visit to Coventry could be part of several reasons, all, or none.
Coventry was still one of his duty bound charges. He would have gone there, as they were still his people.
Showing the entire IS, that they were not going to be just given over to the clans, now that they knew how to fight them.
Show Katherine was not the leader they needed in that time era.
Give the IS a victory over the Falcons, boosting his image, or showing that united, the IS could take out the clans.
It isn't likely many knew of Katherine's involvement with Vlad, so she couldn't claim anything against her brother with this being done.
The very notion of going straight to the jugular of the enemy is the exact thing done to remove the Jaguars, and yet you said that Victor abandoned his people by doing so. So which is it? The leaders he left in position to do so, was supposed to be good enough to take care of things while he was gone. He failed in his judgement there, as he didn't realize Katherine was just waiting to steal the throne(s).
And where would Comstar or the DC strike from? Suggesting removing the clans would be a combined effort, not just the FC against the Falcons and Wolves, then the Bears. Which is where a lot of this falls apart.
To be honest, the Falcons would have gone after the Wolves in exile, if for no other reason then to embarrass the Wolf clan, as well as remove them from being a thorn in their side. Also, to take out the Kell Hounds, which fought the clans and won more then a few times, would show the Falcons were better. Granted that would destroy their training exersize.
There is a question in the harvesting of warriors that just surrendered. Even being desperate for warriors, would you really want a warrior that did not even try to fight? As said to Focht, to even suggest that be done, is an embarrassment to the entire clan notions. The only thing any warrior taken without a real try would be solhema, or show that the clan they came from is so weak, taking them out would have been better. I just don't see it being done.
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Requiem
01/31/20 05:43 PM
1.158.235.15
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If the IS recovered some League tech in say 3025, and started producing it, do you think that would have changed even the 4th war, much less 3039 and the clan war?
What it comes down to is …
Who found it ….
What was found …..
When was it found …..
Can it be readily reverse-engineered …..
Can it be produced in mass numbers before the key periods of time …….
Thus, yes there is a probability that whatever is found can change wars for one side or another …
ER PPC – year availability 3037 by the DC
Gauss Rifle – year availability 3040 - however – “field tested experimental versions of the Gauss rifle during the closing months of the War of 3039. Employed by elite units of the AFFS and LCAF, these prototypes required an additional critical slot and could jam in certain cases” (Sarna.net Wiki Gauss Rifle) – what could have happened if the FC had mass produced the Gauss prior to the invasion?
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Marthe and her choices
Yes I agree … it appears the Clans either do not care or it could be a legal means of blooding (trial of position) for your new sibko graduates.
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Victor's visit to Coventry
Optics / who is in charge / who takes credit … all political (Katherine’s battlefield)
Attacking the Jade Falcons within the Invasion Corridor could be seen as re-starting the war? However this impact could be lessened if you use the Clans own rules against them – whit what forces do you defend this world – Trial of Possession!
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The very notion of going straight to the jugular of the enemy is the exact thing done to remove the Jaguars, and yet you said that Victor abandoned his people by doing so. So which is it?
Did I? …. Where?
What I said, with regards to the Falcons, was that if you wanted to really damage the Falcons it would have been far better to attack the Invasion Corridor Worlds than it would have been to re-take Coventry.
September 18th 3057 – Katherine secedes the Lyran half of the FC.
March 15th- May10th 3058 – Invasion of Coventry by Clan Jade Falcon.
So Katherine had already stolen the throne before Coventry occurred.
Victor was in a position here to return worlds, that were taken by the Clans, to the LC – the optics of which she couldn’t steel! – So how would this appear on CMM?
No, I hold affirm to my assertion that it would have been far better for Victor to strike at the Invasion Corridor than it would have to strike out at Coventry.
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Suggesting removing the clans would be a combined effort, not just the FC against the Falcons and Wolves, then the Bears. Which is where a lot of this falls apart.
This is where TPTB’s canon story falls down ….
1 May 3052 – Tukayyid
It took 6 years of the 15 years truce gained by ComStar winning the battle of Tukayyid before the SLDF was established …
This is a complete load of BS.
Following Tukayyid is when the SL and the SLDF should have been formed …. It is from this point forward where every Great IS House should have started rebuilding (total warfare military industrial complex scenario as per USA homeland in WW2) their forces as well as building an Elite Vanguard Force designed for anti-clan warfare ….. should have been well underway by 3058 ….
Coventry should have been the first test of the new SLDF …. It should not have been the reason for it being rebuilt in the first place! …..
With a rebuilding of the SLDF – we then have a war for the complete removal of those IS Clans (who do not swap sides) from the IS – as is this not the real political / military aim of the SL and SLDF – returning EVERY IS WORLD to their pre-clan House?
And yet this goes against TPTB grand plan – a large number of new empires within the IS so as to ensure the 4th SW FC issue can never occur again – what a load of BS!
Again do they not understand the WW2 analogy? They are suggesting leaving Europe to the Germans as long as the allies can have Italy!!!!!!!!
If you want a large number of new empires by 3150, then just create them from the wars fought between the IS and Clan Space – those worlds within the Deep periphery between the two. Then just increase the distance a Jumpship can Jump.
Simple and realistic.
To consider the cannon history realistic is taking the idea of what is realistic way too far!
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….Wolves (in exile) Vs. Falcons …..
Let’s look at this …. The Wolves (in Exile) are on Arc-Royal (Future capitol of the ARDC) …A majority of the Falcons attack Coventry and in doing so Phelan and his Wolves travel to Coventry to become a part of Victors multi-national fighting force to fight the Falcons …. What a load of BS!
Would not, in this situation, a Clan Khan take the only realistic course of action – to take worlds from the Falcons and make them their own – would not Phelan establish his own Fiefdom for his Clan Wolves (in exile) out of the former Falcon territory – because the Falcons are week and the Wolves (in exile) are strong – and it will also allow his wolves to fight Vlad’s Wolves when he takes worlds close to the border.
This is the believable action of a Clan Wolf Khan don’t you think?
To think a Clan Wolf Khan would assist an IS surrat over an individual world is not believable – but attacking the hated Falcons when they are week is highly believable!
OR/-
Clan Jade Falcon Vs. Clan Wolf (in exile) + Kells Hounds – would make for an interesting battle, the scope of which could equal Tukayyid – and can be considered very plausible. However when you consider Mathe’s aims of blooding her troops she would get this with Coventry. Though with Arc-Royal you would get a war of annihilation there would be no coming back from the destruction this would cause the Falcons – Vlad would then just absorb whatever Falcons (units and worlds) were remaining into his Wolves. (Falcons no longer exist!)
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….. the harvesting of warriors that just surrendered……is an embarrassment to the entire clan notions.
Agree, I too cannot see this being done, it is just not within The Clans psyche / traditions to do so.
TPTB fixing their pet Clans? … CC and the war of 3039 again and how they somehow miraculously gained an additional 18 “Mech Regiments by 3062?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/31/20 09:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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The total war production has already been shown to be counter productive, as it was cause your own citizens to rise up as they lose luxury goods, then start having issues with necessary goods (in their eyes).
There should have been an increase for sure, as all the new factories and such came on line as well as old ones reopening broken lines as well. Even if it is just ICE run vehicles, if you have the fusion engine supply issues. Coventry posed a real issue, as it was a weapon producing world.
But then again, there should have been anti ship weapons in orbit, or even on the ground, taking down more then a few Falcon dropships. Being a factory world should have seen to that.
Where you can draw some ideas from WWII, the future battles isn't the same thing. A single tank unit in WWII, could not destroy an entire city, like New York, with what they had. Energy weapons can do so, and move on to the next city, with a fusion engine running it. So something like the DC version of the Phoenix Hawk would remove a lot of reliance on supplies. Armor, and moving to other worlds being the main ones needed, where the pilot could take what was needed for themselves to eat and drink.
Now a Phoenix Hawk LAM removes the need to drop or pick up the unit, removing the entire landing issues while still being able to slowly destroy cities on a world. Imagine a Vengeance carrier with all LAMs. You think you are safe, as they can't land and fighters aren't going to be able to do more them bomb and strafe things. So you hide in a bunker until they move on. With a LAM, they can come and kick your door in.
This was one of the ideas our group had. Any LAM would work, but we wanted all energy weapons for strafing and such. No ammo booms as well.
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Requiem
02/01/20 12:16 AM
1.158.235.15
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The total war production has already been shown to be counter productive, as it was cause your own citizens to rise up as they lose luxury goods, then start having issues with necessary goods (in their eyes).
Did this occur in WW2? …. There will always be a level of luxury goods … however there will not be an overflowing of luxury goods, there could be a rationing of luxury goods as imposed by the English during and post WW2.
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There should have been an increase for sure, as all the new factories and such came on line as well as old ones reopening broken lines as well
Yes this is true, every procurement department attached to the military would be requesting new Omni-tech ‘Mechs, Vehicles, and aerospace fighters as well as power armor (and Grey Death Armor) as well as light arms that can bring down an elemental;
Plus a new Navy – New dropships, new capital dropships, new fighter dropships, new Jumpships and pocket warships.
As for the idea of making single weapon Mechs – these should all see the bin at the design stage.
Remember military action has been the catalyst for the majority of all important technological development down through the ages ….
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A single tank unit in WWII, could not destroy an entire city
Operation Market Garden …. Arnhem – 1st Airborne Division, 1st Polish Parachute Brigade and the Glider Pilot Regiment Vs. elements of the 9th and 10th SS Panzer Division – result Arnhem was severely damaged.
Stalingrad …
Arracourt …
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LAM removes the need to drop or pick up the unit
LAMs perform as a cavalry unit – similar to WW1 Light Horse unit – long range reconnaissance, hit and run, and depending on the defending force they can even be used to acquire enemy logistical units / bases.
I also agree LAMs should be energy weapon only – they are long range units and they need to act as such, consumables will only limit their effectiveness on the battlefield.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/01/20 12:17 AM)
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ghostrider
02/01/20 02:11 AM
66.74.60.165
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One nation on a single world dealing with other hostile nations, or one nation spread across hundreds, if not thousands of worlds. What is the difference here? Oh yeah.One nation on a single world is not going to shoulder the burden of a war like this. By the way. DId total war production happen during the U.S. civil war? How about England vs France? Even the crusades? Even more recent wars didn't do so. A few along the Asian coast comes to mind. Even the cold war didn't produce this sort of response. There was an arms race, but it did not require a full shut down and conversion of civilian factories to military production.
I guess I should have added in a single tank that isn't resupplied, can't destroy a city like New York. Not a division. Not a corps or any other sized unit, but a single tank. A mech with energy weapons can. A tank with energy weapons and a fusion engine could as well, though unlike a mech, they would not be going thru buildings. No fuel. No ammo. Thus tactics used in older times doesn't work like they used to. Still has an effect, but nothing as dramatic.
Not saying war tech doesn't transfer over to civlian lives, but for the most part, war tech is just that. Made for war. I can be argued that having more advanced ways of taking down buildings should help create better ways of building them, but that isn't as much. It just allowed people to kill people faster and more efficiently, without actually having to deal with seeing the enemy die. Push a button and destroy a city. It could very well be a game with just blips to people that aren't were the fighting is at, anymore.
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Requiem
02/01/20 04:22 AM
1.158.235.15
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DId total war production happen during the U.S. civil war? How about England vs France? Even the crusades? Even more recent wars didn't do so.
Total war can be read at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war
…. The industrial revolution required prior to total war ‘production’ …
The mass manufacture of weapons and armor can be seen in some of the ancient empires, for example the Roman Empire. The first total war production can be seen during WW1 when you consider how shocking it was to allow women into factories to create the ordinance required for the front as well as when you consider the number of weapons being produced.
However, the second world war is a more accurate example of total war ‘production’ ….
- For example school children were taught to make anti-air netting during their recess and lunch periods;
- For small crimes individuals were given the choice of incarceration or working in a war plant;
- Consider some of the production statistics … https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
As for the cold war … consider the idea of the missile gap (and all the other gaps) as well as the lengths the US went to too catch up ….. and yes there was an arms race …
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap#Effects
So when faced with the power of the Clans which model is more politically correct – ie. which model will politicians accept as a means of protecting themselves and their citizens?
Remember they are supposed to Mongols – and once the il-Clan is determined their future aim is the total conquest of the barbarian IS. So this could mean a war with ALL of the Clans, and ALL at the same time.
So, how many new units – all equipped with new technology - will be required to battle the current invading Clans so that the new SLDF can force them from the IS? And then keep them from invading a second time?
Also …
Let’s look at the big picture, the invading clans are only a fraction of the total Clans correct?
The IS know exactly how many Clans in total there are – POWS / Dragoons at Outreach, correct?
If the Invading clans are only a fraction of their total might, and they are causing the IS so much trouble, what would happen if ALL the Clans attacked at once?
Or, if you need to fight ALL of the Clans at once in the future, what are you going to do hope and pray you can produce enough in the future, or are you going to ensure you have the forces now?
In warships alone how many do ALL of the Clans have access to?
So, what are you going to do if they send ALL of them at once – and in numbers equal to what was seen during the Amaris Civil War / 1st Succession War fleet battles?
How do you know that when you send a force to Huntress you don’t step on the griffin’s tail starting a war with ALL of the Clans?
What would happen if Victor lost the Great Refusal?
Being prepared for the worst possible situation or just for the problem that is right in front of you now?
How can you be prepared for an eventuality of fighting ALL of the Clans in the near future? Ans: Total War production for 14 years for the entire new SL or just hope for the best?
Can anyone promise the new SL that they will be successful within the Clan Home Worlds’ in the future, especially when you consider the amount of trouble the Clans have give the IS during their invasion – and what it took to obtain a 15 year truce with them?
Being realistic there is only one political / military solution to the worst possible case – total war production for at least 14 years?
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….tactics used in older times doesn't work like they used to. Still has an effect, but nothing as dramatic.
As stated at the meeting in Japan during the second nuclear attack, “… hundreds of planes and thousands of bombs or one plane and one bomb the result in the same …”
Benjamin Franklin once said “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/01/20 11:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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There is something that is odd. There is no way to really beat the clans without taking out their production in a few areas. Warships for instance. You don't take out their ability to make it, and they will just keep building.
Again. The size of an IS nation is far different then even the entire axis or allies. There is absolutely no sense in making 10,000 vehicles on a backwater world in the FS area between the TC and AO. Going with the lack of dropships and jumpship, you can't move them. Now your suggestion of their being plenty, then it might work, but you have 200+ regiments of troops you could move out. And yes. This is exact opposite of me saying they needed to guard worlds.
Sending people with those vehicles that can operate them would be an issues, as few, if any, would have training. Something a few months in a vehicles could solve, but driving a mech is supposed to take time. And this isn't even going into Aerofighter pilot training.
I do agree with part of this, as it would help after a successful war. Dropship and jumpship production increases. But it is not necessary to remove consumer goods in that large of a scale. Also food is normally rationed at those times, which is the big issue. Those require transportation, and if I remember right, a few worlds didn't produce all that they could, since they couldn't ship it out. So instead of wasting it in the fields, they just didn't farm it all.
Total war production will have riots and rebellion in a short time, probably less then a year. 14 years would very well split up the IS better then the clans did.
Funny as the statement about Japan could well be used on why the IS didn't use nukes against the clans. One Warship in orbit, or a dozen. You world is doomed. Just how much time it would take is different. You use nukes, and the enemy uses nukes.
And Ben Franklin could be correct with that statement, but then everyone alive would fall into the don't deserve category. Everyone at one time or another has given up liberty for a short while, for safety. The total war seems to tie into this nicely. You have the right to not work 16 hours a day, making items that you will never use, while not having some essentials such as full meals or even things like small appliances and such, as those are going to the war effort.
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Requiem
02/01/20 04:23 PM
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There is no way to really beat the clans without taking out their production in a few areas. Warships for instance. You don't take out their ability to make it, and they will just keep building.
Correct.
So unless there is an Amaris Civil War, SW, Jihad era attack with ‘nukes’ how is the IS to survive?
Or are we to assume the I.S. is finally allowed to reduce the warship gap by establishing their own ship-yards, who can mass produce their own fleets within a short period of time – the IS’s technology rating is F after 3060 - so why not?
Or are we to assume the IS re-produces the Yamato, where this one ship can destroy every Clan warship with its prototype main gun?
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There is absolutely no sense in making 10,000 vehicles on a backwater world in the FS area between the TC and AO.
Which company were you thinking about?
Second during WW2 the Robert E. Peary, a liberty class merchantman, was made in 4 days, 15 hours, 29 minutes as a publicity stunt (average was 42 days each). So what would happen if a single Merchant Class Jump-ship could be made in 42 days at just one ship yard, an Invader in 63 days, a Star Lord in 84 days and a Monolith in 126 days.
Then what would the construction rates of drop-ships be?
All though Total War Production policy (once you have established clear logistical chains / quotas per time period to ensure, at a minimum, a just in time delivery schedule ie. a couple of years to tease out the problems).
So after a few years your transport issue is no longer an issue – each house can now start thinking about creating military units in the size of Brigades, Divisions, Corps and Army …
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training
How many training bases can be made is not a problem – like the Dirty Dozen they can build their own as part of basic training – just like they did in WW1 as well as WW2 – prefabricated buildings do not take that long to establish!
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…. but driving a mech is supposed to take time. And this isn't even going into Aerofighter pilot training.
Quote: Page 40 House Steiner: The Lyran Commonwealth ….”Many brave citizens actually left the Commonwealth to join Kerensky. The General gladly accepted these ‘Loyalists’ as they came to be known, into his army. He even managed to set up a makeshift MechWarrior school on Circinus, where he trained many of the Loyalists to pilot ‘Mechs in the years 2768 to 2772, which was the quiet before the storm”.
I would also like to ask how long it took to train the DC Ghost Regiments?
So again not a problem …..
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Also food is normally rationed at those times, which is the big issue.
On some worlds yes, however please look at the idea of the Land Army WW2.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-was-the-womens-land-army
so again not a problem …..
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Total war production will have riots and rebellion in a short time, probably less then a year.
Once communicated and beginning to be implemented some may resort to riots – but this is why you have riot police as well as the court system and the idea of penal battalions (Sven Hassel Books!) But over time it will settle down – England (The entire Commonwealth), America, Germany, Italy etc ……
So again not a problem …. Long term.
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14 years would very well split up the IS better then the clans did.
Or it could do the reverse – like it did in WW2.
Quote Kelly’s Heroes (1970 Film) – Oddball ….”A little faith, Baby, have a little faith” and “Oh, man….. don’t hit me with them negative waves!”.
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Funny as the statement about Japan could well be used on why the IS didn't use nukes against the clans. One Warship in orbit, or a dozen. You world is doomed. Just how much time it would take is different. You use nukes, and the enemy uses nukes.
Your world is not doomed … more of those negative waves!
DC …. Kamikaze … just how many ships were hit during WW2?
And how many aerospace fighters could the IS manufacture under a total war production policy?
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And Ben Franklin could be correct with that statement, but then everyone alive would fall into the don't deserve category. Everyone at one time or another has given up liberty for a short while, for safety.
Lions for Lambs? ……and yet when push changes to shove how many times have countries come together? USA …. Prior to Pearl was predominately an isolationist country … following Pearl, how radically did the entire US society shift to a military / war society?
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You have the right to not work 16 hours a day, making items that you will never use, while not having some essentials such as full meals or even things like small appliances and such, as those are going to the war effort.
Flippancy based upon individual interpretation?
Why is it the above post looks at all the problems / negatives and yet can’t even look at the solutions – there are still good politicians out there that can lead and implement programs that can ensure a positive work / life balance, even in war time.
I guess they really are the Greatest Generation …. No generation since can even consider they can find the same character as that which was found in WW2.
Where is the pioneering spirit of the Terran Exodus …. Where is the resolve to survive the 1st SW …. Where is the drive to improve the technological level of the IS …. Where is the desire to ensure your children and your children’s children live fee and safe in a universe where they can work to become whatever they want to be?
Oddball …. “Oh, man….. don’t hit me with them negative waves!”.
Where are all the positives … where is the can do attitude?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/01/20 04:58 PM)
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ghostrider
02/01/20 08:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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The construction rates for dropships/jumpships would be limited to those that can actually make them. You can't just build a jumpship in a system that has no shipyards capable of it. Part of why it is such a poor number to begin with. It should be seen as there were more before the succession wars took them out, so some may well be fixable.
Most worlds could make jeeps and such. That is the 10,000 that I was referring to.
And with this, there are a lot of worlds that can't even make workmechs, much less battle ones.
And the government would not let anyone make medium lasers. It leads to armed revolts.
Interesting that there isn't the concept of those well behind the lines suggesting that they shouldn't have to do much to fight off the invaders, as they are 'never' going to reach me.
And trying to use the U.S. comparison to other countries about the change to warfare isn't stating anything about the U.S. already having a great manufacturing base to start with. Had it been like a lot of other countries about WWII, then it wouldn't have been able to do what it did.
Some in the Japanese army knew attacking the U.S. was a mistake because we had the industrial might. They were right. They hit large portions of Asia and took them with some ease. No one there had the ability to even start a massive war effort.
The length of distance and time is the issue with using the earth as an example. Much like the original expansion, the Terran command couldn't deal with the revolutions going on with the initial expansion. Causing a long term total war production would see worlds joining together making new realms to stop the hardships put on their citizens for some far off war. And again. The IS wouldn't need a total war production effort. Just increased production in the factories they have.
As some stories have suggested, the IS governments aren't the only purchasers of equipment. Mercs and private organizations do, so there is more being produced then the governments buy.
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Requiem
02/01/20 11:57 PM
1.158.235.15
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The construction rates for drop-ships / jump-ships would be limited to those that can actually make them. You can't just build a jump-ship in a system that has no shipyards capable of it.
Humanity is ever resourceful – does a civilization who’s technology is now greater than that of the SL require the leftovers of the past to succeed – or can it not build its own path to success?
The future will not be limited by the past – it will forged in its own new ship-yards.
As for the staff requirements – every large corporation has its own education facility and considering the population of the IS how many would jump at the chance at building new starships?
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there are a lot of worlds that can't even make workmechs, much less battle ones
And again we see the one dimensional view of that of the IS – other than military Academies how often did the subject of schooling come up? Or hospitals, or police, lawyers, fire fighters and their engines, geologists, …. Or how about the simple electronics or personal computer, can anyone tell me who makes them and where within in the IS and in any specific numbers?
Again a more robust view of the IS is required.
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And the government would not let anyone make medium lasers. It leads to armed revolts.
Then who makes them now? And how are they then shipped to your military units? And who then puts them in your ‘Mechs, Vehicles, Fighters and gives them to your infantry?
What about the question of small arms within the IS?
What about the idea that many of the ‘Mechs were once handed down the family line where were these stored and how many armed revolts were caused by owning them?
Sorry but I don’t think this statement will hold water on those worlds with a strong legal framework – the periphery and other lawless worlds – might makes right has always been the rule.
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those well behind the lines suggesting that they shouldn't have to do much to fight off the invaders, as they are 'never' going to reach me.
Scenario No. 1 – Submarine within enemy waters;
Scenario No. 2 – Commando Unit behind enemy lines;
Scenario No. 3 – Spies and Partisans behind enemy lines;
…. I believe it has been well documented as to these risks.
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having a great manufacturing base to start with.
There are many historical texts that can be studied on this point …. Such as ….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_World_War_I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales
Question how did Germany, Russia, England and Japan produce the majority of their military might?
And then returning to the Battletech Universe the only state (Great House) that didn’t have a reasonable military industrial complex is the CC.
In addition I would like to ask this – How many worlds do the Clans have (Home worlds) in comparison to the IS? What is the difference between populations IS / Clans? What resource difference is there between the Clans and the IS?
When the IS gains a primer of all the Clans Technology (Huntress), how long should it take for the IS to integrate it IS wide? And then How long will it take for the IS then to reach the same production output as that of the Clans? And then how long before they surpass the technological might of the Clans in production and in knowledge (for how can they even trust their own scientists – and how long can their scientists live under their restrictions)? And how long can their totalitarian way of life survive since it has now been exposed to the IS open culture? How long can the idea of the Superman (Trueborn) survive in a society yearning for freedom and equality?
25, 50, 75, 100 years – choose?
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Causing a long term total war production would see worlds joining together making new realms to stop the hardships put on their citizens for some far off war.
Again … this is but speculation it cannot be considered to be a certainty / un-certainty – it is up to each GM to determine.
It has only been seen in Skye, FRR, Andurien, Capellan March and the Periphery States – and in my Alt Universe the former CC and St. Ives.
How difficult would it be to seek independence with a new SL in control – plus the FRR is hoping they will get their lost worlds back and re-establish their empire.
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The IS wouldn't need a total war production effort. Just increased production in the factories they have.
If there is a possibility of going to war with ALL of the Clans (IS and Home) all at the same time – how much would you have to increase production to win against them?
Questions….
How many new units will you need?
How many new Jumpships will you need?
How many new Dropships will you need?
How many new Warships will you need?
200, 300, 400…. 1000% increase in production and over how many years – choose?
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As some stories have suggested, the IS governments aren't the only purchasers of equipment. Mercs and private organizations do, so there is more being produced then the governments buy.
Question … who makes the laws in regards to who can and who cannot purchase military grade equipment?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/01/20 11:58 PM)
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ghostrider
02/02/20 12:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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I left out the word in the statement of the governement letting people make medium lasers. It should be just anyone. Left out just. I see where that changed the concept of that statement.
The question of how many people would jump at the chance to make starships is hard to answer.
Things like how afraid people are of being that deep in space with no immediate help, how dangerous the work actually is, are two main ones I can think of right now.
On the other side of this, does the company even want them?
Training them is going to be a pain at first, with some people not being able to do it no matter what. Maneuvering in space and trying to weld is not a skill most people can master. Remote drones can only do so much, and having people using them that know anything is uncommon to rare. Given how many people may be tapped, it might not be such a big deal.
Scenario No. 1 – Submarine within enemy waters;
Scenario No. 2 – Commando Unit behind enemy lines;
Scenario No. 3 – Spies and Partisans behind enemy lines;
…. I believe it has been well documented as to these risks.
It this meant to say those behind their own lines should be worried about these scenarios? Subs don't scare people on other worlds. The commando unit might be a concern, as well as suicide squads, but again. They think the security at the spaceport will keep such things out. Partisans are not a worry like subs aren't. Spies, especially assassins would be, but not to the common man. Those in charge or prominent people like scientists would be.
Someone on Galax isn't so worried about wars in and around the FRR, as long as his security isn't threatened by it. And that would mainly be the military guarding their butts being move out would worry their security.
Speculation that the IS worlds would revolt against the main government and form their own little pacts when they are forced into situations the main populace doesn't want? It is history of the IS, as well as humanity. Revolts at the least. In the game, the distances and limited number of forces allows this sort of thing to happen, with some governments being less likely to just drop an invasion force onto the world to pacify it.
The government putting restrictions on who businesses can sell to is the main one. Corporate leaders can limit them as well. Some will sell to banned buyers anyways, but normally through the 'black market'. Shell companies and such, with clandestine drops and such. But given the issues with the CC and what the MAC did, it is obvious some companies deal with every nation around the IS, as well as mercs and private parties.
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Requiem
02/02/20 05:16 PM
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…..the chance to make starships …. how afraid people are of being that deep in space with no immediate help, how dangerous the work actually is … does the company even want them? … Given how many people may be tapped, it might not be such a big deal.
First, shipyards –
Wouldn’t they be above a planet in geosynchronous orbit so as to ensure ease of transport of materials from planet to shipyard?; Or
Built into a moon with a low gravity – specialist low gravity manufacturing facilities also built into the world / other goods can be quickly transported from the Nearby world?
Thus I wouldn’t call this being in deep space especially when the Inner Sphere in a deep space society.
Yes, I agree the work is dangerous …. But how much money are they going to be offered to do the work? So how many will just not care and will therefore sign up?
However, the real issue is how a ship is built – is there a description of this process?
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It this meant to say those behind their own lines should be worried about these scenarios?
Too literal ….
Submarine – Stealth tech pocket warship with capital missiles? – add in the idea of a WW1 and 2 wolf-pack - add in the idea of supply merchantmen Drop-ships and yes people should be scared.
Commando Units – usually para’s who are dropped in the middle of no-where or remain behind as the main House Units withdraw (to be collected at a later date). So unless they are coming in and they have a valid visa I doubt they will need the Spaceport (That is unless this is where they are going strike!).
Partisans – how well trained are they? Are they from the local reserve unit and armed with their tech (and explosives)? so yes, partisans can be a worry.
Spies – anyone that gets in their way will be collateral damage! – Suggest reading about “The White Mouse (WW2)”
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Speculation that the IS worlds would revolt against the main government and form their own little pacts when they are forced into situations the main populace doesn't want?
Revolts usually require two factors …. Heat and pressure ….
Respect (listening to the grievances and providing timely solutions), good remuneration, plenty of ale houses etc. will alleviate this problem.
Also you don’t use the military to stop a riot – sledge hammer to crack an egg – just the local constabulary.
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The government putting restrictions on who businesses can sell to is the main one. Corporate leaders can limit them as well.
This is why you have auditors as well as customs inspectors …. However removing “mech from the line to sell it off on the black market will be a little obvious? However if you have the money in the game there is always a work around for any situation, you just need to know the right people.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/02/20 06:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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I was thinking of shipyards being those that needed to be outside of a planets pull, such as jump and war ship production. Dropships, well some of them, can be made on world. For some stupid reason I initially thought of jump points being the main place.
The easiest way to avoid revolts is to avoid total warfare production. The people may do without some things if you increase it, but without being everything that can be, changed over to war equipment production would be the main answer. Done right, the commercial companies can make more money off of what they sell.
Example: A car company having to reduce the amount of production for a popular car. They still sell them but at a higher price as production goes down, from helping the war effort.
This is much better then saying there isn't any new cars coming out as all factories are production jeeps and tanks. In the game mechs and such would be added to that.
Companies can sell to a lot of different entities, include across the border legally in the IS. Otherwise units could not buy a new Defiance made unit if they were in the CC, or TC, or OA. Not just mercs, but actual well known entities in foreign lands.
Before the FC alliance became a reality, the FS and LC were doing a lot of business with each other. The Hatchetman was designed in the FS, while the LC actually produced it. Munitions is a big one as well. War time tends to rely on the black market, as most, if not all, weapon production is banned from being sold across the border.
The issue with the MAC came from that unit being quasi house troops for the CC. So they were on the banned list. The one Defiance rep took their money and refused to ship the supplies, according to the adventure pack. I can believe that would be the case, as a few million C-bills were involved.
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Requiem
02/02/20 09:19 PM
1.158.235.15
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The easiest way to avoid revolts is to avoid total warfare production.
Both had total warfare production, and yet how many revolts?
https://www.striking-women.org/module/women-and-work/world-war-ii-1939-1945
https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/us-home-front-during-world-war-ii
Again revolts are dependent upon the overall societal impact as well as the society itself.
There is no way anyone could guarantee revolts (unless there is outside agitation – and what would their end game be here?)
Yes with scarcity prices should increase, black markets and marketers should also become more prevalent – however if the government is able to stabilize production quotas and introduce price stabilization laws – the overall economic impact can be minimized.
Also utilizing ‘Movies and Baseball’ as seen in the US home front post, as above, demonstrates a positive effect for the home front during wartime.
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War time tends to rely on the black market.
Yes, I agree, this is an accurate assumption.
Luxury goods … acquired through “creative” logistical methods – having contacts within the military as well as the local syndicate.
Weapons / spare-parts …. If you have the money they can send out a “Mercenary Unit” to get whatever you want from the enemy (or allies) through “creative” logistical methods.
Ammunition …. This usually falls of the back of a truck.
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…. MAC ….
This is where an understanding of purchases of this size would have helped – COD – would have been the only method in this case.
However, as the MAC is some-ones pet unit they will not even notice the loss.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/02/20 11:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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The MAC supposedly hit Defiance to reclaim the costs. I'd have to reread the pack to see how they did it, as hitting Hesperus isn't really an option.
And COD isn't likely in the future. The war companies have the upper hand here, as they have plenty of customers wanting things, and you have to deal with them. I know Comstar was used to make sure payments were made to the company, but not sure how often they 'forgot' the customer. Might well be an advance on the materials is what was lost. I doubt a few million c-bills would cover much of what the MAC would need. The CC wasn't reliable to cover their needs, so they went thru shell companies to get resources from other nations. Or so the pack said. Also, sending thousands of crates to the buyer, could have the right stuff in a few, just enough to get the customer to believe they all have the right stuff in it. The seller was only a rep, not a main salesman from the company.
Luxury good isn't something the common man can even think to afford, much less get in contact with the black market for. But then the rich tend to be the ones pushing for changes, when they don't get their way.
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Requiem
02/03/20 01:15 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
The MAC supposedly hit Defiance to reclaim the costs. I'd have to reread the pack to see how they did it, as hitting Hesperus isn't really an option.
Sarna.net wiki Hesperus – Fourteenth battle
“The truth, which is not publicly known, is that Kincaid's firm (KDI) was secretly building prototype Double Heat Sinks for the Federated Suns (made possible by the FedCom Accords). Kincaid had embezzled a significant share of the production and sold it to the Capellans. When the Lyran Intelligence Corps threatened to uncover his activities, he delayed their investigation long enough to arrange for his safe extraction in a staged raid, providing the Confederation with the blueprints in return. It is implied that Kincaid provided the means by which the attacking DropShips could safely approach the heavily guarded world.”
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And COD isn't likely in the future.
Question: Why Not? I cannot see why banking practices would change – even after a thousand years.
But this was never about the money, as above, it was just an objective raid – extraction of one person (and his attached documents), in which they were provided with a safe way on world.
Though once on world they really took a beating.
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Luxury good isn't something the common man can even think to afford
Definition of Luxury Goods? …. Superior goods ….. a high quality brand …. Haute couture ….. or something else such as wine, bottled water, coffee, tea, foods …..
Also … Black markets also include everything from every-day items to entertainment products etc.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/03/20 12:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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Do your really think the war manufacturing companies would risk bringing loads of equipment without having it paid in advance? Simple ambush of the delivery system would result in a massive loss of funds. Done right, the buyer would be visible on another world, so blame could be avoided.
Also as stated before, the war companies have the advantage. You pay up, or even a large deposit, or they ignore your order. And the added advantage of pay first. If they have to ship it to you. You 'prove' the order never showed up.
And what do you do if the order isn't right? There would have to be someone to arbitrate if say you order 10 tons of LRMS but only got 8 tons. The other two were 'shipped' but never made it? Black market was good for skimming equipment from shipments. A few missiles per crate would be ideal.
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Requiem
02/03/20 07:07 PM
1.158.235.15
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Do you really think the war manufacturing companies would risk bringing loads of equipment without having it paid in advance?
Reputation of the buyer,
Was there a deposit paid in advance,
Being an armaments corp. wouldn’t they have their own security force or a mercenary security unit, they have the money!
If anything went wrong the buyers reputation would be shot with every armaments corp. within the IS …. It is a very small world … and remember, reputation is everything in this game.
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war companies have the advantage
No, House Governments have the advantage …. As well as the lawyers, you don’t think there would be a clause in the contract to make sure any “problems” were accounted for.
Also the contract will have a clause for incorrect numbers supplied …. And whom had to pay for it!
Daria ……Shrinkage, Babe!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/03/20 11:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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You said it yourself with the Kincaid thing. He was shorting the government with double sinks. He was for a while. And as said about ammo falling off the back of a truck.
Who is responsible when the shipment is short? Or do they even know this? Supply people selling items isn't something new, and I doubt it went away in the future.
Also, who is responsible for shipments stolen by pirates and such?
And I seriously think all shipments will have mercs or security with them, as that would mean black market and pirates wouldn't have anything, unless the security or mercs were stealing it to sell.
Remember. These companies, including Defiance, ship all over the IS.
In nation, the lawyers have some pull. Between nations? Doubt it. Enforcement of such contracts, is the issue. I seriously doubt the LC would get on some of the manufacturers for shorted supplies. An investigation would have to be done, and things like bribes would change the truth to what ever they wanted. So what if the unit on garrison duty is short 2 tons of missiles out of 200. So what if the front line unit is short as well. The government officials or some such are happy with a few extra thousand C-bills. The unit will survive.
But what happened in all the militaries on Terra, wouldn't happen in the IS.
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Requiem
02/04/20 03:55 AM
1.158.235.15
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Question, and what happed to Kincaid when he was caught? He had to flee to the CC – all FedCom Assets seized!
Reputation … shot! … has to flee to the CC …. what will happen to him when he is in Capellan space? How vastly different is their way of life to which he would now have to conform to? Will they put him in a position of trust or will they give him a minder, (or just shoot him when they have the information and a working unit).
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Who is responsible when the shipment is short? Or do they even know this?
1. Whatever is in the contract; and
2. You simply count it or weigh it depending upon the product – plus there would be other ways you can make sure your are getting what you paid for.
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who is responsible for shipments stolen by pirates and such?
Insurance Agency.
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And I seriously think all shipments will have mercs or security with them, as that would mean black market and pirates wouldn't have anything, unless the security or mercs were stealing it to sell.
Question – how valuable / important are the goods being transported –as the more valuable / important the higher the probability that either rent a cops / mercenaries or worse (Black Cats in the DC) will be assigned to protect the shipment.
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In nation, the lawyers have some pull. Between nations? Doubt it.
Question – please explain how international trade can work if there isn’t a set of international rules by which trade can occur?
It works here and now so I will assume that it will work there (in the future) as well.
International Business is a series of very interesting University Subjects – you can get a minor or major in IB when you get a Commerce Degree.
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things like bribes would change the truth to what ever they wanted
Possible, but many Archons have tried to stamp this out – especially when it comes to border protection officers.
This is why you would have an internal police force dedicated to rooting out any corruption from these civil servants.
Plus if Military Logistics were short – the MPs would be informed they would then Liaise with their civilian counterparts to find out the truth – there is no way that they would just say f… it!
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But what happened in all the military on Terra, wouldn't happen in the IS.
Doubt it!
James Longstreet, “Time sets all things right. Error lives but a day, Truth is eternal.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/20 11:26 AM
66.74.60.165
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Still not seeing the whole picture?
Weapons manufacturers have always had someone skimming the supplies. The big companies tend to 'miscount' as well as the supply personnel in the military. Things like manifests having a number different from the real order.
And with the delivery security. More then a few bases would not let them anywhere near the bases as they were not authorized, so the buyer would have to get the supplies from the dropships. It is this reason why pirates or smugglers could intercept the supplies and take them. Show up claiming to be the buyer.
Another thing along this line is having a planet quarrented or blockaded. Again. The supply ship that isn't part of the military would not be allowed near it.
Count or weight it. There is such things as faulty parts in a good shipment. Simply casings with some junk in them to make them look or weight the same as the real stuff. Even missing valuable components like the targeting systems, yet will fire like it's supposed to.
Ammo not having the correct charge in them, or made of lesser materials. It is very likely that a round or two in a clip not doing the damage it is supposed to do, would be missed in a fire fight.
Is there really an insurance company that deals with this sort of thing? I haven't heard of such a thing in the world today.
In a court of law, do you think the judges will rule that a foreign supply company isn't at fault over their own military? So they could scam the supplier by saying something was short or wrong? And how do you really enforce it? It may well be a rival unit that took the shipment.
There are more then a few stories saying the munitions a unit in the field got were defective. Scams have been around for a long while and will not stop in the future. Also, this is how some of the black market get their wares. It is simple enough to mark a case file as close, especially if you can do it electronically.
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Requiem
02/04/20 05:13 PM
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Weapons manufacturers have always had someone skimming the supplies.
And now?
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It is this reason why pirates or smugglers could intercept the supplies and take them. Show up claiming to be the buyer.
Really? … don’t you think there would be security procedures in place to ensure this never occurs?
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There is such things as faulty parts in a good shipment. Simply casings with some junk in them to make them look or weight the same as the real stuff. Even missing valuable components like the targeting systems, yet will fire like it's supposed to.
Quality control procedures?
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Is there really an insurance company that deals with this sort of thing?
Please google ….
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311762118_Marine_Insurance_and_Piracy
“Marine Insurance for Piracy Attacks: Necessities and Benefits - Hull insurance, which covers physical risk to the ship, like anchoring or damage from heavy seas, collision, sinking, capsizing, fire, piracy, and discarding encumbering cargo to save other property. Cargo insurance that covers the goods transported in the ship.”
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In a court of law, do you think the judges will rule that a foreign supply company isn't at fault over their own military?
Current Maritime law is “Once a ship is 24 miles from any coastline, it's on the high seas (or international waters). With the exception of certain rights within the contiguous zone, the law of that ship is the law of the country whose flag it's flying.”
Assume it would be similar within Deep space – however once you enter a Jump-point whomever owns that point their laws will prevail. All sides will have to be careful with regards to Jump-ships as retaliation / embargo / restriction of trade etc. can be used by the aggrieved party …. Ie. it is highly political sensitive topic for all IS Great Houses and Periphery Powers.
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There are more then a few stories saying the munitions a unit in the field got were defective.
Yes this is possible. However, when investigated what happened to the person(s) at fault?
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It is simple enough to mark a case file as close, especially if you can do it electronically.
Yes electronics warfare will become prevalent, however I would also say that anti electronics warfare will be developing at the same time – so it comes down to who’s ‘karate’ is better.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/20 07:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is still skimming going on in the military and does in the games future. It is not something that can be stopped, as long as there is some human element in the mix. It isn't all the grunts doing the work either. There are more then a few pieces of equipment in the field that still doesn't work right, and what happened to the manufacturers? They are making billions after the equipment was ordered, trying to fix it. Do you really think that changed in the future?
And again. The black market has to get the items from some where. They don't manufacture most of it themselves.
The fall off the truck would never happen in the way you explain how things would be investigated. Someone would pay for it. So the risk of being caught, doesn't stop it. Hmmm. Sounds like most of it doesn't get caught. Kincaid got greedy. Or stupid. Maybe both.
How many movies have a basis in real facts? People show up to pick up items from shipping, and turn out they were not from the buyer? Or get killed when they do find out? This is not all transactions. This is a minority, but it is the way high end items get on the black market. Full mechs end up there, and that is not something that you can easily hide, like a few ammo crates.
Maritime law. Funny. The idea of not nuking or using other WMD get violated, and you think the Maritime law would prevail?
Do you really think the CC judges would rule that an FS/FC supplier wasn't at fault if say even the MAC said they were shorted? If so, then you need to return to reality.
Investigations only happen when noble lives are injured or a major issue comes about from it. Having a ton or two of bad ammo among 12 regiments isn't likely to be investigated, unless there is someone of a higher station that used it and got hurt. Even defective equipment.
Do you know what hacking is? There are plenty of anti virus software out there, yet they do not stop all of it. Banks get hit, as well as the governments around the world. Not all of them caught. In fact, a lot never get detected. Programs in systems for years, before someone finally comes across an oddity. Hacking isn't all real time like shows like to suggest.
A lot of malware is entered into company systems from people checking the email and advertisements. Some get caught. Some don't.
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Requiem
02/06/20 06:21 PM
1.158.235.15
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Issues with the Cannon Clan Invasion
After going back and re-reading saran.net wiki – Clan Jade Falcon / Operation Revival I have issues with the way the war was written -
Possible Alt. History as follows .....
First Wave was March 3050 and it wasn’t until the second (May) / third (June) wave did the need for garrison units eventuate do to the massive increase in partisan activities upon acquired worlds <Second Wave – “Serious issues in the initial plan: Increasingly large numbers of units were held back in order to quell uprisings”> – However the time taken from the Clan Home Worlds to the IS is 6 months + and preparation time of at least one month – thus the earliest they could have arrived in December 3050 / January 3051.
However – PGC’s began entering the IS in wave three – where it states that “these PGCs helped to tap down on the revolting populace” – However, when it comes to PGCs they are still ineffective when it comes to garrisoning worlds – most are Triads – one star each ‘Mech (5), Elementas (25) and Fighters (10) – a complete lack of infantry (As to Garrison / police a world in the Billions you need infantry in the tens of thousands per world is required and even then you do not have total control) is posing a severe problem.
However ilKhan Leo Showers is killed October 31 – So who is third in Command of each Clan to take control and assign the PGCs to their assigned worlds? (Khan and saKhan are required upon the Clan Home Worlds – thus they will be gone for 12 to 15 months in all reality)
Solutions ....
ComStar assists to pacify worlds – Quislings – How many would go along with the Company line and how many will rebel against this policy of assisting the occupation force? (Historical precedents - Norway, Poland, France – WW2 Vietnam etc.)
Or, Gestapo Tactics? The Use of Fear and the firing squad ...
Either way, I cannot see this working given the cultural differences the Clans are attempting to impose upon the IS.
So, does the Clans have the political ability / willpower and foresight to form “Escorpion Imperio Castes – Support and Garrison” from the masses upon the Clan Home Worlds far earlier than first considered and do they have the transport capabilities to transfer these mass infantry into the IS with any alacrity? – You are looking at decades to form and transport to the IS any meaningful numbers to take control of any meaningful number of worlds or to even form units from IS individuals who accept a security position within the new reishimes.
And this would never change – no matter what time period you are in – so with the expansion of the invasion corridors into the new Clan empires (3150) how can they control anything given their limited numbers – sorry but again this does not make any sense whatsoever – example:- Skye – how can the clans garrison this area, the population have a long history of rebellion – with their conquest by the Clans the problem would be magnified hundreds of times over?
There is no security coordination whatsoever- the story needs to be worked on?
In this first Invasion the Clans have the ability to take worlds - but they DO NOT have the ability to hold worlds where the majority of population per world are so against them - where are the books based upon "for example France WW2 or Vietnam" to demonstrate the massive problems the Clans are experiencing?
Plus given the level of losses their warriors should be experiencing during a partisan war due to irregular tactics their Sibko system of reinforcements would be near the breaking point within a very short period of time.
Clearly militarily the first invasion can only be considered a failure due to their lack of understanding IS societies (they are so blinkered they though the IS culture was the same as their-own, which will lead to massive problems in the future - Clearly they did not understand the Dragoons reports regarding the IS) - but given the Clans bullheaded nature they will never admit it!
The only possible solution therefore - rebuild how their army as to how is created (Sibko System) and how their new "auxiliary" forces are built - and establish a new type of dropship to transport these "auxiliary" forces - Whilst holding onto what you can within the IS by placing massive amounts of Mechs / Elementals and Fighters onto a limited number of worlds - and then in ten to twenty years when the new model army is manufactured restart the invasion.
The question is can the Clans even contemplate that their entire military needs to be revamped at this stage otherwise given IS change of tactics to Attrition Warfare (and Possibly Nuclear warfare when it comes to Warship Engagements) otherwise they will be steamrolled out of the IS within 5 years in they continue down this path, due to the massive loss of warrior personnel.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/06/20 06:48 PM)
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ghostrider
02/06/20 08:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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A complete lack of infantry, with 25 elementals?
But then there has never been much in the way of garrisoning a hostile world for the entire game. So why is it, that only the clans has this uproar about it?
The invasion of Towne showed that. The entire Terran March showed that. Almost even planet taken by an enemy has shown that.
Or, Gestapo Tactics? The Use of Fear and the firing squad ...
The combine had taken this approach through out the entire succession wars. So why is it an issue now? The Confederation has done some of this as well. So why is it an issue now?
Rewrite? Wait until rules are stable, then go from the expansion from Terra, and keep it consistent. This would destroy a lot of the issues with the 3025 era and beyond. But then the game is supposed to be about stompy mechs fighting each other, with occasional other things like tanks or infantry.
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Requiem
02/07/20 04:23 PM
1.158.235.15
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A complete lack of infantry, with 25 elementals?
Yes, when you compare it to a Brigade – 1,626 to 3,976 troops.
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But then there has never been much in the way of garrisoning a hostile world for the entire game. So why is it, that only the clans has this uproar about it?
With regards to the Inner Sphere – many border worlds had accepted the change in government as what it came down to was a change in currency and holidays and to whom you sent your exports to …. as for the most part many Great Houses did not interfere with the running of newly captured worlds, this in turn provided for a more peaceful transition from one House to another.
However, the Clans with to actively change IS society into their way of life – A Caste System, Fostering (removing of children from their family home when they reach 13 so they can work in a factory), Removing social and family identity through removing a person’s last name, limiting education, treating them as indentured servants (Totalitarian System) rather than human beings (harsh penalties for minor infractions), the destruction of the weekend culture and important holidays, religion etc …..So, wouldn’t anyone fight against such a system when you come from a liberal society (F-C) and for even the DC this would be viewed as social vandalism?
As far as the IS considers the Clans are beyond evil – they are not Mongols they are Vandals …. With no regard whatsoever as to what they destroy.
Ghostrider, can you please elucidate regarding Towne as I do not understand this point.
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The combine had taken this approach throughout the entire succession wars. So why is it an issue now?
When was the last time you read this occurred within the IS …. 1st / 2nd Succession War even for the DC? But since then not at all.
So we have had a massive period of time where this has not occurred en mass within the IS.
Yet for some of the Clans (Jag’s) they take the view that this is normal SOP – just look at Turtle Bay and Edo for how they view how expendable human life is - Kentares Massacre all over again! The horror this image evokes is beyond the pale.
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Rewrite?
If not now when? …. If we were to bring in a more logical history Kerensky would never have left …. Killed by his own troops or put out to pasture … the exodus would never have been considered …. Kerensky’s sons would die in ignobility ….The Clans would never have existed … so No Wolf’s Dragoons etc …. No Wolverines ….. in all reality the Terran Hegemony would have returned ….
The idea that Kerensky would cut and run doesn’t hold water …. This is not in his “true” character!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/07/20 05:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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The invasion of the world Towne by the DC, had the leaders of the invasion force being the type that was harsh with his trying to pacify Towne. One such instance is when the leader caught Cabellaros Comanches personnel and executed them on live TV.
But it does say that they were having issues patrolling the populace, as they hunted for the Comanches. Spreading out the little forces they had.
Using a warship, as bad as it is, it is not the same and genocide of a world. Now suggesting that was SOP for the clans, even for the Jaguars is a complete lie.
The warship captain was frowned upon and ordered to leave the IS by the Jaguars leadership. If this was standard operations, then why is Turtle Bay the only instance of orbital bombardment by the clans?
Using fear and a firing squad is pretty much how the DC tended to pacify worlds. The CC was only slightly better, as they did not run it as SOP, especially with FWL troops.
I guess the idea of someone changing because of trauma doesn't have any place in the idea that Kerensky decided that he had enough of his soldiers dying for the spoiled nobles that made up the council at that time. So instead of having more die because a war was brewing, and he knew the house lords would not do anything other then fight for the First Lord position, he took what he could and left. They had fought the periphery, and then Amaris. And yet, the lords stripped him of his position, in order to declare themselves lord of the SLDF. There would be no end to the war in Kerensky's lifetime. With that in mind, it is very logical that he would not cut and run as you suggest, but leave as being fed up with the political garbage going on, that would end up in the deaths of all his soldiers in war. No one would die of old age if the stayed.
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Requiem
02/07/20 06:07 PM
1.158.235.15
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The invasion of the world Towne by the DC, had the leaders of the invasion force being the type that was harsh with his trying to pacify Towne. One such instance is when the leader caught Cabellaros Comanches personnel and executed them on live TV.
Refer sarna.net Cassie Suthorn – Events on Towne
“On April 18th, the 17th Recon's Camp Mariposa in Gunderland Province was attacked. The Towne Air Rangers attempted to hold off the full scale raid, but during the course of the battle, the Regiment's dependants were captured, including Colonel Camacho's lover, Diana Vasquez. The Regiment's Intelligence Officer, Gordon Baird had betrayed the regiment's base to spare their lives. However, Planetary Chairman Blaylock arranged for a firing squad and Diana was shot as a warning to Cassie and the Regiment to surrender or have other hostages killed.”
Then compare it with sarna.net Battle of Turtle Bay
“…. It would later become infamous as an example of the extreme brutality with which the Smoke Jaguars treated their conquered foes …. Perez ordered Beta Galaxy's WarShip, the Sabre Cat, into low orbit above the city and commanded it to open fire. Repeated strikes from the ship's autocannons and laser weapons bombarded the city until there was nothing left but smoking debris …. The orbital attack of the Jaguars leveled the city, killing several millions.”
How can a comparison be made?
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Now suggesting that was SOP for the clans, even for the Jaguars is a complete lie.
Technical Readout 3050 – who does this sound like? – Page 6 – “The use their captives as slaves…”
Turtle Bay – how quick was the elemental to take the head of the old man?
Sarna.net Clan Smoke Jaguar – Operation Revival - …. What stung more was their apparent inability to deal with Kurita partisans, as the people rose up to fight their new oppressive overlords …. Smoke Jaguar warriors proved incapable of managing the masses, instead resorting to wholesale butchery in response to any resistance.
And under Culture …”the Smoke Jaguars quickly established themselves as the most brutal and aggressive of the Clans …..the warrior caste's view that they were the epitome of Clan society and all others were beneath them …. Smoke Jaguars took it to the extreme, valuing them less and less as the years went on until they scorned their very existence. The harsh discipline maintained by the warrior caste meant that any transgression by the lower castes would be dealt with severely, as would infamously happen during the Londerholm Revolt during the Golden Century …. was easily the most violent and aggressive of all the Clans.”
Sounds like SOP for the Jaguars ….
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then why is Turtle Bay the only instance of orbital bombardment by the clans?
And yet what about the Jade Falcons threat upon - Zoetermeer - Clan Jade Falcon’s Nightlord Class Battleship, Emerald Talon?
Twice is twice too many – it shows the IS leaders they have propensity to use warships.
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Using fear and a firing squad is pretty much how the DC tended to pacify worlds.
4th SW – War of 3039 – where?
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… Kerensky ….
Duty … Honor ….. Your Oath ….
Cut and run … the TH had 600 plus settlements within a 80 -120 Light year radius … how many were there post 1st SW? How many Billions of people and Hundreds of worlds were gone forever ….
His duty was to the people of the IS … if he could no longer fulfill that duty he should have stepped down and given it to someone who could …
He, is a shell of his former self, and during the exodus he became a vindictive old mad and a Tyrant …
Both he and his son destroyed the once valiant SLDF and converted it into something Amaris would consider theirs!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/07/20 06:09 PM)
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ghostrider
02/07/20 10:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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Yet for some of the Clans (Jag’s) they take the view that this is normal SOP – just look at Turtle Bay and Edo for how they view how expendable human life is
This very much sounds like orbital bombardments were the SOP you were talking about. Not how they treated their captive populations.
As for the old man in Turtle Bay. How many other people did they kill? How quickly was the elementals to leave. Had they suspected the old man lied, they would have went after far more.
One man's freedom fighter, is another man's terrorist. Not saying the execution was right, but growing up in the clans, the warriors have the right to end the life of a non warrior if they do something so hideous, like bomb a cafe with their own people in it. In clan society, dezgra people, like the bomber, have no right to live.
Question. If you played Halo, have you written the company that makes it that they should change the fact the brute torture and eat people?
How about Star Craft?
Even Robotech has the invid destroy most of humanity.
How can you say an orbital bombardment was done twice, and suggest the Falcon one, was the second. There was not a single shot from the Falcons. Counting a threat as the actual action opens up a major can of worms that should never be opened. So you threaten someone, and you should be charged with attempted murder? This is what it sounds like you are saying.
How much information was given on the worlds taken by the DC? Most of the stories that deal with DC occupation has them being more violent then normal.
How many lives were lost when Katherine started killing people that caused the civil war? Oh wait. You are trying to suggest she didn't, so you can use her as a good person.
Out of all the settlements that the SLDF started with before Amaris killed Cameron, then see how many existed after Kerensky finally retook Terra. Kerensky used nukes as well as Amaris. And once the First Lord was dead, and the others dismissed him from protector of the SLDF, who was the one that he had an oath to? The people? Most of them went along with removing Kerensky. Those that wanted him to stay probably went with him into exile.
Interesting, as the description for an old mad tyrant, is what Katherine had become. As well as others. So what is the difference here, beside you want to turn Alexander Kerensky into a villain?
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Requiem
02/07/20 11:11 PM
1.158.235.15
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Original question:-
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Now suggesting that was SOP for the clans, even for the Jaguars is a complete lie.
Above response:
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Yet for some of the Clans (Jag’s) they take the view that this is normal SOP – just look at Turtle Bay and Edo for how they view how expendable human life is
What is the correct answer?
Ethics Theory – A Bystander’s Crime question “If someone is (for example) a witness to a murder he could have prevented without harming himself, is he as guilty as the perpetrator?”
Source - https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/magazine/a-bystanders-crime.html
Let us then apply this to the clans whist in the invasion corridor ….
If a Clan is witness to another Clans war-crimes to mass murder they could have helped prevent, are they as guilty as the perpetrator Clan?
Sarna.net Clan Smoke Jaguar – Operation Revival – Culture … Londerholm Revolt during the Golden Century …. 2912 … Precedence
Sarna.net Clan Smoke Jaguar – Operation Revival …. resorting to wholesale butchery in response to any resistance …..
All Clans are guilty by just doing nothing! …. And now Amaris’ Clans!
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How can you say an orbital bombardment was done twice, and suggest the Falcon one, was the second.
The threat was there! – within the Canon Story the 10th Donegal Guards’ C.O. Marshal Sarah Steiner believed the Clans would follow through with their threat as they did on Turtle Bay – so how are the Leaders of the IS supposed to take this? (a question that has yet to be answered)
They have no direct communication with the Clans except interpreting the actions of the warriors – go back to the Cuban Missile crisis ….
Question – if your unit was the second unit threatened with nuclear attack during earliest days of the Jihad by the WoB, would you take it as a bluff or reality? In this case, however, the Clans have used a WMD and they are threatening a second strike - can you take the risk they are bluffing?
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How much information was given on the worlds taken by the DC? Most of the stories that deal with DC occupation has them being more violent then normal.
Book page no please.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/08/20 12:20 AM
66.74.60.165
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And which clan was at the bombardment of Turtle Bay? And with the clans, they do not police each other, as you suggest. Even the Jaguars thought it was wrong. But they don't punish someone for something like that. For some, it was a righteous thing. I don't agree with it, but that is how the Crusaders think.
I like how you leave out the sentence before the quote, that asks how warship bombardment is SOP? The answer is simple. There is no SOP for bombardment, even in the Jaguars. But that reduces the effect of the complaint. And again. The threat of use is not the same as the actual use of an action. By the way you talk, the governor should have called the bluff, as it was their job to resist the Falcons to the last man. The whole argument of partisans and such leads to this conclusion.
Yet with all the evil the Jaguars represent, you think that taking them out would not happen. The FC should have demanded the Falcons and Wolves be hit. Conflicting view points here.
So one nation uses chemical weapons, while another allied with it hasn't do so yet. Would you believe the allied nation would use the same weapons?
The question for the second unit nuked by WOB is poorly thought out. Time between the two incidences, as well as communications would need to happen. So hitting one city, even a minute before another, there would not be any real news about it. And different systems having it happen? Even less likely the second unit would know.
Maybe rereading the entire history of the game is in order. It seems you miss so much of the canon history, that I wonder if you just aren't trying to get into an argument or just say that the people who made the game are wrong. Yes. The same old answer to the same old argument.
Or is it just a few pages folded up to try and convince others the game needs to change to someone elses point of view?
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Requiem
02/08/20 02:50 AM
1.158.235.15
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…. they do not police each other, as you suggest.
Then they are all complicit with regards to war crimes.
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I like how you leave out the sentence before the quote, that asks how warship bombardment is SOP? The answer is simple. There is no SOP for bombardment, even in the Jaguars.
Sarna.net Wiki Orbital Bombardment
“In the Wars of Reaving, Orbital Bombardments would become commonplace among Clan Space. “
If the Clans are willing to go to such extremes in the future then can it be said they had the willpower within the Clan Invasion Era?
Especially if DC and F-C destroy their warships with nuclear weapons?
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…. it was their job to resist the Falcons to the last man ….
Was it? … their duties include guarding and protecting people and properties under threat …. Not the wanton death of civilians to prolong an unwinnable battle ….
And partisans relates to resistance …..
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So one nation uses chemical weapons, while another allied with it hasn't do so yet. Would you believe the allied nation would use the same weapons?
The F-C didn’t when the CC used chemical weapons.
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The question for the second unit nuked by WOB is poorly thought out. Time between the two incidences, as well as communications would need to happen.
I however believe it is on target … what if you add the caveat that the second knew of the existence of the first use?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/08/20 12:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. So if one nation in the NATO organization does something despicable, does that mean the rest are guilt of it?
How about a single state in a multi state nation? The best they can do is basically censor them, to just telling them not to do it again. It is not likely they will kick them out, nor start a war over it. They didn't do this in their history with things like the Falcons killing their own. They didn't do so when others committed their atrocities. So why would they do anything when the enemy is on the end of such an atrocity?
So again. The future has been written, and it is with this knowledge that the past must change to prevent it?
It can't possibly have anything to do with the fact they failed the invasion and looked like morons because of it? The home clans may not have let them live their actions down, and with the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars, shown their guaranteed victory over the rabble in the IS was because the Falcons weren't capable of doing so? Then to guard their own little fiefdoms in the home worlds, they resorted to the very thing you demanded of the FS?
Then a majority of battles shouldn't have been fought if the wanton death of civilians to prolong an unwinnable battle is the case. The story of heroes would never be the case, as all of them deal with unit fighting superior forces and winning. Yet the same enemy unit just destroyed a unit their size.
And you don't understand that your partisan actions are doing just that? Fighting the enemy in an unwinnable battle that does get the civilians hurt and killed. Sometimes by their own attacks. And then suggesting that civilians do that same, as to obey the enemy's directives in order to survive is treason, really shows this entire argument is not based on logic, but on the fact that you just want to argue.
An enemy uses a weapon once. In the case of the Falcons, it is an entirely different organization in a larger alliance, do you think they would do so a second time? Which the Falcons didn't fire a single shot from orbit. Not even a warning shot into an empty field.
WOB was poorly thought out as being the next terror of the IS. They had such a small force compared to the IS, and no real base outside the reach of the houses, the only way to negate some of that was the nukes and warships. It might have been better had they just hit one nation, then after beating it down, got into it with another one. Not most at once. And the BS jumps in tech? Those in Comstar should have known about the research being done, unless they just happened to advance the tech line a few hundred years in a few decades. If so, what does that say about Comstar holding Terra for so long and nothing. But then I don't play the game in that era. The tech can be released in other ways. Simple raids on the 'hidden' worlds for one. Comstar getting ahold of it, and handing it out to the others, or having some units with that tech, lose some units to a clan raid, and the IS finds and reverse engineers it.
Then again, the games we played, did have the IS get and build clan tech. The excuses of not doing so was beyond reason. Especially with the XXL engine costs.
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Requiem
02/08/20 04:43 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
Ok. So if one nation in the NATO organization does something despicable, does that mean the rest are guilt of it?
In this case, if one SLDF Unit committed a war-crime, and was caught doing it, if the highest Ranked Officer within that sector does not bring them to justice then that Officer will be charged with that war-crime and ethically all SLDF units in that area will be painted with the same brush as the unit that committed the crime …..
It is not a win at any cost belief system …. It is HOW we win that truly matters. (…. and how we govern).….. to the infamy of their name and the ruination of their line, to this day they evoke horror … Nanjing, My Lai, Oradour-sur-Glane …
So why bring these topics into the Invasion of the Inner Sphere is you don’t want to vilify all the Clans with the same brush – Legally if Clan Smoke Jaguar commits a war crime under international law the il-Khan at the time will be held responsible and (if caught) can be brought before a war crimes tribunal as he/she is the Highest Ranked Officer within the entire OZ – Ethically all the Clans are responsible for the actions of the individual Clan.
However more often than not politics gets in the way of legality and ethicality of an issue …… as it did here within the IS invasion corridor.
In which demonstrates how far the former SLDF units have fallen when they became “The Clans”.
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Then to guard their own little fiefdoms in the home worlds, they resorted to the very thing you demanded of the FS
Please continue…
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And you don't understand that your partisan actions are doing just that? Fighting the enemy in an unwinnable battle that does get the civilians hurt and killed.
Within the Clan OZ the use of civilians for labor as well as the increasing tempo of partisan activity is clearly described in order to understand please refer to the following.
Please read …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
and …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Wake
and ….. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II
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An enemy uses a weapon once. In the case of the Falcons, it is an entirely different organization in a larger alliance, do you think they would do so a second time?
The question is NOT whether the Falcons or any other Clan will use an orbital bombardment?
The true question is … COULD they?
As a ruler if there is but 0.00000001% chance that they could / would do so again then they must take this as a certainty - action is therefore required to safeguard the lives and property of their citizens – in this case they have used it once and threatened to use it a second time, (I would also like to point out the fact that no one, within the Great Houses, knows what would would/could have happened if Sarah didn’t surrender her forces), so as a ruler of one of the Great Houses you must assume that they would have gone through with their treat – so you must treat it as two orbital bombardments!
That said as they did not have mobile naval weapons – pocket warships, dropships armed with Naval weapons etc – the only weapon within the armory that could put a dent in one of these monstrosities is the nuclear warhead and the only way of getting it to its target was the aerospace fighter.
Within the canon story of the Clans Invasion it is quite clear that this was never understood.
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….reverse engineers it ….
If the IS Great Houses can make it – they will make it – costs be damned. Parity of weapons systems (damage and range) / restriction of Clan’s weapons (range) has been identified by every military intelligence organization as one of the keys to winning the war.
So if you can do it, you will do it – why go through the trouble of …..
Wolcott, sarna.net wiki Wolcott – “… The Smoke Jaguars were defeated thanks to the defenders' battle skills as well as the terrain advantage of the planet's wooded marshes”. Ie. restricting the range of their advanced weapons.
Twycross, sarna.net wiki Battle of Twycross – “…it would help neutralize the range advantage the Clan 'Mechs had enjoyed.”
A second point - that was never understood / lost within the canon story of the Clan Invasion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/08/20 06:47 PM)
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ghostrider
02/09/20 01:28 AM
66.74.60.165
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In the clans eyes, the Jaguars didn't do anything illegal. It was a bit harsher then what they thought it should, but not illegal.
The DC and CC have used chemical weapons during wars with the FS. Does that mean the FS is responsible, as they seen it happen?
As you said. the clans no longer uphold the SLDF's views. They have used warships in the past on their own, so why would it not be in the arsenal for dealing with the IS?
I think you are the only one to see it as something other then to anger the players into wanting to take out the Jaguars, and to that extent, the rest of the clans. It is not something that requires a full rewrite, as it is part of the game. Again. If you don't like it, don't play it.
Your beloved Wolverines were an example of the clans doing what ever they could to hold their lands, or take more. With this, they used nukes on their own, so it is possible they will use it in the IS. So they could have threatened all the worlds with it, but didn't. They wanted a ground war to prove themselves. The Snow Ravens being the main clan that is space orientated, and they want fighter battles, not warships pounding worlds. And yes. The Ravens were not part of the invasion.
And the IS has used slave labor before as well. Not for long, but it is there. They even pressed their own citizens to do so at times. But this only shows that your complaint is far later then it should be.
The whole argument of they could describes the entire first succession war, where nukes were being used instead of trying to take the world with ground forces. So by that definition, the FS shouldn't have survived, and the others would have relied on nukes perpetually, as they were the only things to guarantee that ground troops would not land on their worlds. That leads to more extreme interpretations in the future. Only the supply of uranium used for the nukes would determine when it would stop. Then the meer threat of using them would cause worlds to surrender to others.
The ability of the IS to reduce the range of the clans was limited, as they were not able to do as much as you think. The one base was so fortified, that the clans would require a galaxy or more to take. Except the roof of the main CIC. Elementals dropped on that spot and destroyed the CIC. No matter how much you plan and build, the enemy can drop on your side of the traps and such.
Also, it seems to be missed, that the clans had the advantage at short range as well. The right configurations would be worse then the range fights. The Warhawks one configuration was like the Rifleman IIC. Four LPL with TC attached. And the clans loved ammo weapons, as they were used to short combats. Massed SRMs would be one way, as well as heavy ultras and lbx cannons. And that close in, the Gauss Rifle become murderous. Not likely to be missing anything that isn't moving faster then 8 or so hexes at a time.
Another note, the clans ER weapons had another factor with them. They did more damage as well. But at least the IS had the ability to hit the clans with the shorter ranges.
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Requiem
02/09/20 03:24 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
In the clans eyes, the Jaguars didn't do anything illegal.
And this makes it right? So as long as it is acceptable with regards to my culture I can do any horrendous act?
Kali Liao – sarna.net wiki Kali Liao – “She ordered the Black May attacks in 3062, for which she was tried and convicted in a Star League court and sentenced to internal exile on Highspire.”
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Your beloved Wolverines were an example of the clans doing what ever they could to hold their lands, or take more. With this, they used nukes on their own …
Sarna.net wiki Clan Wolverine
“Unbeknownst to Clan Wolverine, Clan Widowmaker operatives had stolen one of the nuclear devices from the Brian Cache, and prepared it for detonation in their capital city of Great Hope. Khan Jason Karrige then activated the device when he, the ilKhan, and Clan Widowmaker forces approached the city.”
“As Karrige had hoped and planned for, the blame fell on the shoulders of the Wolverines.”
*** SPOILER ALERT ***
Brian Lee Pardoe, Betrayal of Ideals
Setting: Grand Fleet Flagship Rough Rider, Uninhabited System Zulu 11981 TZ, Along the Exodus Road, Several Jumps from Clan Space, 18 December 2823.
Page. 177 – Nicholas talking to McEvedy, ….”…I know what happened on Dehra Dun was not your bidding, but that of Merrell’s people ….”
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And the IS has used slave labor before as well. Not for long, but it is there.
Sarna.net wiki Rim Worlds Republic
“….taking slaves (especially women)….. When Hector Rowe founded the Rim Worlds Republic, Apollo possessed an extremely small population - only Rowe's militants and slaves taken prisoner during Rowe's flight were present ….. Hector Rowe's granddaughter, Arabella, would later emancipate the Republic's slaves altogether.”
And the Smoke Jaguars within the IS?
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The ability of the IS to reduce the range of the clans was limited
Pre Huntress yea I would agree. Limited to whatever salvage they could get off the battlefield.
Post Huntress + some time to set up and get all factories working – No, no I wouldn’t agree.
Then there is also the defection of Bears and cats …..
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Elementals dropped on that spot ….
A completely overused tactic that after being used once becomes pointless ….
To do this first you must gain air superiority;
Second you must hope the IS have not zeroed in on that point with their artillery – or are using their artillery like German WW2 88’s – originally designed for anti-aircraft – however when one bright spark decided to use it as an anti-tank artillery piece is when it really showed its flexibility in battle.
So what would happen to a drop-ship if you dropped the sights and fired for effect – one very large hole in the side of it!
Third, what would happen if you ran land wires to the CIC and allowed all communications to come out of the building … the elementals come, they break in …. then you detonate the entire building and the Dropship above the building collects the entire blast …. Adios Muchachos!
Fourth, what if the entire inside has armor plates so thick that none of their weapons will work on it …. Elemental Prison! ….
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Also, it seems to be missed, that the clans had the advantage at short range as well.
And yet extra short physical weapons never came into the equation …
Shields … axes …. Hatchets …. Swords ….how good are they when it gets this close and one on one no longer works and the IS are using a 2:1 or 3:1 bias – no rules …. No quarter asked or received ….
Remember what Kai did with a single Hatchetman within the Gash?
Where is the Clans Battlefield dirty tricks book, whereas, the IS dirty tricks book is encyclopedia in size.
I would also like to point out that during the Clan Invasion none of the Clan Invaders used Vehicles, VTOLS, Conventional Fighters / Bombers. If they underbid or divide their forces these forces can pounce on the Clans units and by sheer numbers alone – attrition warfare – turn them to scrap especially when the majority have AC20s.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/20 01:07 PM
66.74.60.165
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Have you actually looked at the countries in the real world. There are some hideous things that go on, and those around them do nothing to stop it. Just lip service, as to do anything means war. With Kali doing so, none of the great houses did anything other then try Kali after the war to retake St. Ives was over. They did not step in to stop it at all.
The Wolverines did not use it, but the fact someone did should have been the context of that statement.
The fact that the IS not taking clan tech from Huntress is an established fact that it was completely stupid and illogical. Most agree the IS should have taken and built that tech. The game would have suffered from it, as future wars would not allow a single mech to take down 2 or more others if they were set up with weapons that could take each other down in a hit or two, outside of the floating crit.
First off Tried and True tactics are used as often as they can be. Part of SOP.
Second, air superiority isn't needed to do so. You just need to keep the enemy's air distracted. As they can not be engaged in a dog fight, then just turn and burn to intercept what would be taken as bombs dropped on the roof, until they changed course and even then, that didn't explode on contact.
Third off, it would be stupid for the Artillery inside the building to have sighted a spot directly on top of the housing they are stationed in.
Fourth, the idea of blowing up the CIC would have to be planned out before the attack, and since no one has precognition, that isn't likely. It was the ultimate bunker in the eyes of the commander and LC. Also, given the fact that the story is supposed to follow Battletech rules, the artillery would have to be outside of the building, as well as being able to fire at a moving target. Artillery is designated to hit solid ground hexes. The dropships came in, hovered, and dropped the elementals. So anti air fire should have been going in the first place. Not sure if anti missile systems would have fired on the dropping elementals, as I don't know their targeting program.
Funny thing about having the awesome doors. Most of the time the walls that hold the door aren't made as well. Such as bullet proof glass. The frames and walls tend to be more forgiving.
There were not that many units with axes and such. Retrofitting them would require removal of other equipment.
Yeah. The writers gave Kai the ability to blow up a fusion reactor in an explosion that doesn't exist, in order to detonate the charges in the walls. So that whole part and anything afterwards is BS going by the rules.
Now the AC 20s have the issue that only a very few mechs and vehicles use them. And once the clans realize what they are going into, the clan ultras and lbx canons would be used. Massed srms would be completely devastating, and really nasty as the normal srms in the clans is half weight. Then again pulse lasers come into their own here as well. Depending on how close range it really is, the clan medium pulse lasers outrange IS medium range items. So 10 hexes means you can pick off IS mechs, while they need LL and bigger to hit back. But it does give you a chance to at least fire something at the clan mechs.
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Requiem
02/09/20 04:10 PM
1.158.235.15
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The absence of assistance / protection does not remove our ethical obligation. As stated previously … politics gets in the way of ethics.
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…. none of the great houses did anything other then try Kali after the war to retake St. Ives was over. They did not step in to stop it at all.
Politics.
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The Wolverines did not use it, but the fact someone did should have been the context of that statement.
*** Spoiler Alert ****
Blaine Lee Pardoe, Betrayal of Ideals
Continent Number Three
Gamma 1551 AV, Codenamed “Barbados”
Along the Exodus Road
7 July 2824
Pages. 208-210
Nicholas made sure the truth never reached the light …. That another Clan, Widow makers, believing the Wolverines posed a threat <and because they were the most like the old Star League> to all the other Clans …. And that Nicholas was complicit in the genocide …. Khan Karrige was then executed at the command of Nicholas. And all Khans who were there to hear and watch forgot what they heard and what they saw!
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The game would have suffered from it
Was the game that bad back in 3025?
Technological development continues – there could have been Clan ER PPC (Mk 2.) then (Mk. 3)
Whereas the IS was still on Clan ER PPC.
Realistic and believable. Vs. annoying, stupid and unbelievable …
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First off Tried and True tactics are used as often as they can be. Part of SOP.
Once this becomes SOP, you will loose – too predicable!
Air distracted? …. Isn’t this the definition of air superiority over the battlefield?
Artillery ….. who said I would put it in the building? … when a Drop-ship hovers are they not stationary?
Blowing up CIC … above you espouse the value constantly using the same tactic over and over again …. But then when a trap is established you swill suddenly not use the same tactic that has worked over and over …. cant have it both ways.
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There were not that many units with axes and such.
And yet if you put all the models with them together in one unit?
And is it so bad to retrofit?
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AC/20
… only a very few mechs and vehicles use them …. And yet how many can make them,( 11-12 Major Corporations) and how many vehicles can be retrofitted with them?
Question how many targets can a Mech warrior aim at at one time? Vs. How many vehicles on the board can aim at one target at one time (especially if they are in your rear)?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/20 04:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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The concept of someone watching an action and not doing anything is negated by politics? So that can be used for the others to ignore what happened on Turtle Bay. And you know what. Politics is the basis for the other clans to ignore it. They are not under our command, or dealing with us, so we won't interfer.
Weither Nicholas surpressed who did it, doesn't negate the fact, it was done. That was the point. Not who but was done.
Why not have SL ERPPC mk 1. Then SL ERPPC mk 2? The idea of a heavy and light version of the ppc could have come out sooner with this, as someone might find a way to increase the damage or range while researching it. The capacitor could have come out sooner as well.
But screwing up the game comes down to armor. Where it should improve as well, the game becomes frustrating when a single mistake causes you to die. A single shot taking out all the armor on one location and reducing your mech to scrap.
And the developers screwed up on this, as the SL armor was supposed to be superior to the survivors of the 3rd war. Ferrous Fiber can't be it. It might give more protection per ton, but you are still limited to double the internals for the spot.
Air distraction and air superiority isn't the same thing. A distraction is pulling the defenders attention away from one spot. Superiority means they can't even get anything up to challenge you.
And SOP going to lose? There are so many things that are SOP that you know have to happen, yet not much you can do to counter it. Orbital drops for one thing. Fighters can do something but they might be dealing with enemy fighters.
Here is a very necessary SOP in a fight. Firing your weapons to hit the enemy. Some tactics are SOP like the pincer move or strike and retreat.
So bad to retrofit? Losing ranged weapons, heat sinks, armor and such is a good thing? There is no guarantee you will be able to use the axes and such. And with some units, you have to actually connect it into the skeleton, as they have no hand actuators.
And than you have these units that have to face the enemy in an environment that the axes are useless. So now you have even more issues. Not saying they don't have their uses, it is just not a good idea to have that many.
A paradox just came up. The clans never threatened the civilians, yet the warship did.
The issue with the ac20 is ammo. If you don't have a continuous supply, you are dead in the water. You can do some major damage when you hit, but at 5 shots per ton, and needing to be without 9 hexes to even fire is a problem with most battles.
To my knowledge, a mech warrior can aim at how ever many target as he has weapons. Not a smart idea, but it is possible.
But with the horde idea, it becomes the horde of the VTOLS. The Yellowjacket comes to mind. Gauss rifle on a VTOL. I forget who said this, but it is very true.
This may well be why the writers didn't bring in the hordes of vehicles. It would have stopped the clans cold.
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Requiem
02/10/20 12:44 AM
1.158.235.15
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To the Clans … War is an abstract concept …I wonder if they even know what the word means?
So, it is only when they really come toe to toe with a competent leader within the IS do they truly realize the Horror.
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The concept of someone watching an action and not doing anything is negated by politics? So that can be used for the others to ignore what happened on Turtle Bay.
The problem with this is samurai politics and the idea of ‘Face’ …. In this instance if a leader DOES NOT retaliate they will loose ‘Face’ – and thus the respect of their generals – so at this stage you should expect someone to send an assassin to kill the leader, so that they can be replaced with someone WHO WILL retaliate ….
Ignoring a problem will not make it go away …. Ethics remains constant …. Remember it is not who wins but how you win.
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Weither Nicholas surpressed who did it, doesn't negate the fact, it was done. That was the point. Not who but was done.
So the Widow-makers get off ‘Scott free” where as the Wolverines face total genocide …. All so Nicholas could stamp his authority on all of the remaining clans …..
SOP – does not mean doing something incredibly stupid!
Retrofits are for those that can best use the changes to their weapons package.
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A paradox just came up. The clans never threatened the civilians, yet the warship did.
Clans and civilians …. Refer Alt Universe: Operation Revival (Mk 2) – First Invasion
And just from the Jade Falcon history …….
First Wave
IS non-warrior castes required hash penalties to keep them in line – executions were required to shock them from the notion they could utilize partisan activities …..
Third Wave
their ability to resupply units in the field is severely strained and an outbreak or rebellions on previously conquered worlds requires more forces to be held back for garrison duty ….
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The issue with the ac20 is ammo.
Not really, if you have a good logistics officer, together with a multiple forward ammunition dumps – problem reduced.
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This may well be why the writers didn't bring in the hordes of vehicles. It would have stopped the clans cold.
Agree.
And this is why the cannon history does not make-sense …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/10/20 02:25 AM
66.74.60.165
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Wasn't talking about DC population with the ignoring Turtle Bay. The rest of the IS learned about it, and did nothing to help repulse the invaders. Not even trying to get passage thru the area around Terra to get troops and supplies to them.
Actually, it does matter who wins. They get to write history, even if it is a lie. Also, the are the ones to survive and now control. How you win has moral issues, but in the end, most are worried about themselves, friends and family. Nature doesn't have quarter given.
Yet the Widowmakers ended up being absorbed by the Wolves. So ironic justice? They killed Nicholas, and was in turn killed. The Wolverines are not the only entity that bore the accusations of others.
In a fight, the Falcons did say come out of your bases or we kill this town. They were ruthless in making sure the freeborns knew who was in charge. This is pretty much how they did things in the home worlds.
Logistics has to have the ability to supply the troops. Dropping the units on a clan held world, means you might only have what you bring. Say 4 Hunchbacks on a Leopard dropship. Only 5 tons are ammo would be available besides what is loaded into the mechs ammo bay. Some worlds don't make the ammo, though they could retool to do so. But moving it is the problem.
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Requiem
02/10/20 06:40 AM
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The rest of the IS learned about it, and did nothing to help repulse the invaders.
DC – at war;
F-C – at War;
FRR – at War;
ComStar – collaborating;
CC – if you have them in you game, just watching <trying to find anyone who could get them Clan Tech?>
FWL – supplying everyone with refit packages, at a reasonable price!
This is why I believe that during the year of peace (which should have been called the year of preparedness) when all the House Lords are called together by the Dragoons this is where and when the new Star League and the SLDF should have been reformed.
If you had commandos operating within the clan OZ, and they had access to Black Boxes, then ComStar will find themselves at this time in it deep! – This is where all the house lords would ask ComStar as to an explanation as to their acolytes actions <my bet is they would also have found an acolyte willing to testify against the First Circuit>
As for CC and FWL – the ability to obtain advance tech would bring them on board – if all the others have access they could find themselves behind the others quickly due to what they can get off the Clans.
<Isn’t self interest a wonderful motivator?>
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Actually, it does matter who wins. They get to write history, even if it is a lie
It is not about how it is written … it is about how you won … you win with dignity, honor, treating the conquered with respect you have a chance of integrating them (the conquered people) into your empire …. You win by destroying everything and treating everyone as a slave, the war will never end the resistance will go on from one generation to the next. The death toll and the level of barbarism by both sides will increase year in year out … you will never have peace, you will never be able to integrate these people into your empire … the hate will be passed down from one generation to the next increasing in intensity each year …
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Nature doesn't have quarter given.
Nature does not have intelligence …nature does not remember (you hope!) … nature does not have the strong emotions humans put into everything!
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Yet the Widowmakers ended up being absorbed by the Wolves. So ironic justice? They killed Nicholas, and was in turn killed. The Wolverines are not the only entity that bore the accusations of others.
Symmetry? ….. serendipity? ….. kismet? …. Karma?
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They were ruthless in making sure the freeborns knew who was in charge.
And when reading sarna.net wiki Clan Jade Falcon ….
The first wave
Unfortunately the first wave also exposed one apparent vulnerability in the Jade Falcon war plan: the defenders rarely had the good grace to stop resisting their Clan overlords once the battle concluded.
The second wave
…. serious issues in their initial plan. Increasingly larger numbers of units were held back in order to quell uprisings
the third wave
the problems which had begun cropping up at the start of the invasion had become more pronounced … outbreak of rebellions on previously conquered worlds required more forces to be held back for garrison duty.
the fourth wave
the disastrous Battle of Twycross
"The Culling", all those who had questioned the creation of Clan society or the Jade Falcons' role within it were dealt with harshly. The ringleaders were executed and their bodies put on public display.
The seizure of all Widowmaker assets by the Wolves would make that Clan more powerful, potentially causing other Clans to pay more heed to their dangerously liberal ideas.
Many of these colonists however balked at the caste-based restrictions placed on them, seeking greater freedoms in order to operate more productively. Such blasphemous ideas did not sit well with the Jade Falcon leadership, and disputes between the warrior caste and civilian castes grew among these new colonies. Events threatened to get out of control when a Jade Falcon colony petitioned the Grand Council for permission to join another Clan - preferably Clan Wolf. The Jade Falcon Khans acted swiftly, decisively, and harshly. Military units were deployed to all civilian colonies in the Kerensky Cluster to seize control and kill any civilians who openly rebelled.
And look what that gained them? Isn’t it amazing that those Clans who respected their non-warrior caste members and treated them with more respect have a stronger economy and a stronger military than those who threat them poorly.
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Logistics has to have the ability to supply the troops.
Dropping units onto Clan held worlds means selecting the correct Mechs – majority energy weapons might be a good first step if you are going to be there for a prolonged period of time.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/10/20 06:41 AM)
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ghostrider
02/10/20 11:21 AM
66.74.60.165
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The FWL was NOT supplying the others when Turtle Bay happened. It was during the Dragoon meeting that they finally did.
How you win isn't the big thing. How you treat the enemy after they surrender is. WWII ended with nukes. As the U.S. didn't treat the populace like crap afterwards, there wasn't so much friction. For some, they will never give up the fight. Most of those tend to use others to do the combat portion of it.
Ok. Talking about ac 20 carriers, and the statement of logistics has to have the ability to supply the troops, then the response is selecting the correct mechs- majority energy weapons comes back. The example of the Leopard and 4 Hunchbacks should have made that even more clear.
Not sure how that was missed.
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Requiem
02/10/20 07:06 PM
1.158.235.15
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The FWL was NOT supplying the others when Turtle Bay happened. It was during the Dragoon meeting that they finally did.
Officially or Unofficially – would any corporation give up the chance at vast profit during the Clan’s Invasion when the F-C , DC and FWL would pay (at a premium) for refit packages.
Could the FWL government stop it when they (members in the government) are also would be making a small fortune off the war at the same time?
and whilst the Corporations are making a profit what would the Government’s Taxation Department be?
So, doubtful.
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How you win isn't the big thing. How you treat the enemy after they surrender is. WWII ended with nukes. As the U.S. didn't treat the populace like crap afterwards, there wasn't so much friction.
People have long memories.
As stated previously, the nukes DID NOT end the war, the introduction of the Russian forces did!
Plus they were ordered to surrender by the Emperor (A living God at that time).
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AC20 ….Not sure how that was missed.
No, not missed at all …
Vehicles in defense can have ammo resupply bases established prior to the fight with the Clans – in order to continue the fight – ie. attacking the Clans in waves.
‘Mechs on another world (controlled by the Clans) do not / may not have the chance to resupply their consumables as much as they need to – hence the need for an above average number of energy weapons whist on extended behind the lines duty.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/10/20 10:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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Nicholas made sure the truth never reached the light …. That another Clan, Widow makers, believing the Wolverines posed a threat <and because they were the most like the old Star League> to all the other Clans …. And that Nicholas was complicit in the genocide …. Khan Karrige was then executed at the command of Nicholas. And all Khans who were there to hear and watch forgot what they heard and what they saw!
This is a rewrite of history. The Widowmakers had spies that found the nukes in a cache. Then stole them after Nicholas said that no one clan should control that cache.
As Karrige had hoped and planned for, the blame fell on the shoulders of the Wolverines. The ilKhan commanded Clan Snow Raven to take the battle to the Wolverines on Circe as he planned the ultimate punishment: the Trial of Annihilation. Clan Snow Raven's attempt to use a nuclear weapon on the remaining Wolverine forces backfired horribly when the nuclear-equipped aerospace fighter was shot down by the Bismark, a mothballed WarShip reclaimed by Wolverine saKhan Franklin Hallis. The activated nuclear weapon detonated in an airburst over the Snow Raven's capital of Dehra Dun. This too would be blamed on Clan Wolverine.
So another inaccuracy here.
Edited by ghostrider (02/10/20 10:31 PM)
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Requiem
02/11/20 12:17 AM
1.158.235.15
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This is a rewrite of history.
Please obtain and read the truth ….Blaine Lee Pardoe’s Betrayal of Ideals – Nicholas made sure to re-write history as he wanted. The truth is a very good story – Blaine should be very proud of this book.
The truth is far more exciting – as there is far more within this book than was ever considered before.
This is a must have book if you want to understand Nicholas, McEvedy and this era ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/11/20 11:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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The book Betrayal of Ideals is a retcon.
The original story was the Snow Ravens were the ones sent to punish the Wolverines. Not the Widowmakers.
It would have been nice to know the type of warship used to take out the fighter, since most of them didn't have anti fighter weapons, and capital weapons can't hit a fighter. Not a fighter, but a warship took it down.
Another hole?
Nothing in the original books suggested anything like this.
And Pardoe seems to be one of those that distorts a lot of the rules to make the story sound better, then has the canon version retcon it into the game.
And he is one of those that still writes that fusion engines explode.
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Requiem
02/11/20 02:30 PM
1.158.235.15
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*** Spoiler Alert - Betrayal of Ideals - Pg 147 – 52 ***
Dehra Dun
22October 2823
Clan Wolverine – Texas Class Battleship – Bismark
Clan Snow Raven – Avalanche
Sarna.net wiki Clan Snow Raven Touman – Avalanche – Sovetskii Soyuz Class Heavy Cruiser
Angel Flight - Raven Actual – armed with nuclear weapon
Bismark fired naval lasers at Angel One ….however, payload was dropped and detonated off-target … detonated as an airburst over Dehra Dun. (Rather than that of the Wolverine forces 40Km north-east of Dehra Dun).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/13/20 12:00 PM
66.74.60.165
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Here is a thought for you. The complaint about the clans making kingdoms in the IS may well have started from Katherine.
She would have shown Vlad just how much power was available to those that took it.
When other clans, especially the Falcon leaders seen it, they decided it was for their best interest to do so as well. The Bears looked more like they wanted away from clan politics, but could have added to the allure of having a place away from the other annoying clans and their bickering ways.
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Requiem
02/13/20 04:35 PM
1.158.235.15
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The complaint about the clans making kingdoms in the IS may well have started from Katherine.
Then why have invasion Corridor to start with that are garrisoned by Clan Forces?
If all you needs was a supply corridor all the way to Terra why not limit the Corridor the no more than three worlds wide and then keep on advancing forward as much as possible as quick as possible – rather than have a broad front have a “stiletto” frontal approach?
Sorry no – every Clan was looking for their own Empire, right from the get go!
The biggest unanswered question is again logistics – How are you going to hold such a vast territory of such scope if you do not have the available manpower to hold it?
It is clear the Clans believed that the IS society was the same as theirs – that the worker serfs would just rollover when conquered and do whatever their new lords demanded of them with no trouble whatsoever.
What they got was something altogether different.
As for the majority of IS people converting to Clan way of life – highly unrealistic – there will always be some but the majority would fight on for generations.
What is also clear is the Clan 3150 maps make no real sense whatsoever – again! <suspending belief yet again>
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/13/20 06:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe having the invasion corridor had something to do with guarding your back as well as supply lines? Something any smart military would do.
Well if the clans had been successful, the other home clans may well have been ready to move in. Then again, having a large swath does allow you to change supply routes with a greater success of being unfound.
What is the response to the question that Katherine may have been responsible for the clans kingdoms?
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Requiem
02/13/20 10:04 PM
1.158.235.15
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Maybe having the invasion corridor had something to do with guarding your back as well as supply lines? Something any smart military would do.
Well we will never know as logistics were never written into the game! And if they were, given all available information, it would be incredibly one sided towards the Clans.
So you will have to make your own logistics fleet schedule / inventory per fleet as well as route taken for the entire war.
Then add in a force (like my Fenrir Units) to hunt them down and then see what happens next.
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Well if the clans had been successful, the other home clans may well have been ready to move in.
If approved by the ilKhan ….?
However, wouldn’t it be more like the Clans to Bid / undergo trials for their position on the second Invasion of the Inner Sphere, just as they did for the First Invasion?
Followed by even a third and Fourth invasion?
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having a large swath does allow you to change supply routes with a greater success of being unfound.
Small or large the chance of detection is the same.
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What is the response to the question that Katherine may have been responsible for the clans kingdoms?
As stated above – not believable – the Clans wanted their empire from the get go.
Question – what makes fighting for a Totalitarian Force like the Clans so desirable, given who and what they truly are, and what they believe in, and what they force upon others to believe in?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 12:54 AM
66.74.60.165
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How is 5 worlds you can use the same as having 100 worlds you can use for detecting supply routes? This is a very large logic fail. Which of the 100 worlds are they using this run? Empty systems work well for avoiding notice, and really screws up someone trying to lay an ambush. Then having forces guarding such supplies makes it that much harder. You like numbers. Well there you go. 5 does not equal 100. Don't care how poor math skills are. It just doesn't work.
The hitting supply routes might work in the alt, but that is only if you have the resources. And to be honest, those resources would be better used to destroy and repulse the clans forces. Hitting supplies is fine, but the amount you are dedicating to this is more wasteful then not. All those troops in space, burning fuel and holding resources needed elsewhere.
Oh yeah. When waiting in ambush at a systems point, you have a 50/50 chance of being right for that system. That is IF they don't use pirate points, or just double jump. There are two points to jump into.
The only way the Ilkhan could avoid challenges for worlds would be to dis ban all the other clans. Otherwise you could not stop the other clans from coming into the IS.
The whole bidding system then keeping the clans that didn't win out of the IS wouldn't have held. That is one of the bigger holes in the invasion. To be told you can't even try to become the ilclan since only 4 clans could do so, would NOT have gone thru the council. Even trials of refusals or grievances would not end it as all the clans would be fighting to make sure they would have the chance. So all clans would have invaded. That is your reality that you don't want, as it would mean the LC portion of the FC would have been devoured as well as possible the Draconis March in the FS. The DC would have fallen to allow the FS to be hit. Not much they could do about it. And there would be no year of peace. The FRR would have been destroyed, as more forces, and the ilkhan would not have been there to watch.
The clan warriors fight for the legacy to be continued in the future thru the Iron Wombs. That has been from the time the clans were formed. So it makes the idea that Katherine changed their outlook even more likely. You wanted Psy-ops, what there is a huge one for you.
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Requiem
02/14/20 02:41 AM
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Well there you go. 5 does not equal 100. Don't care how poor math skills are. It just doesn't work.
Using Mathematics
Do we know where the Clans Logistics fleets arrive within the IS?
Can we work backwards based upon probability where they are jumping from to arrive into the IS? Where would be the best place to recharge – what sun type within rand would offer the best recharge time?
What is the probability of this being accurate?
Do we know their schedule time for when they arrive – is there a pattern that can be discerned – can we work backwards to work out when they arrive in this identified system one jump away?
Using IS People
Using former pirates who fled from the Clans consider their point of view as to where they may consider the point of recharge would be.
Using Clan People
Defectors from the Clans – information provided on debrief.
Using Technology
Put a satellite in this system to detect any incoming Jump-Ships – information stored indicates time of arrival, date and position – or it provides no data at all – so move it to the next likely system and try again.
Using spies / commandoes
Penetration raids to gain Clan information held on their computers etc.
Identifying and kidnapping the correct Clan people working on their Jump-Ships.
As per 4th SW – use your Lyran orphans to disable and penetrate a ship in order to gain the Navi Computer on a merchantman.
And when you add it all together a good intel officer can work it out ….. consider Midway!
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And to be honest, those resources would be better used to destroy and repulse the clans forces.
If that was so then why did anyone build the submarine?
The Clans have a six month logistics trip from Clan space – that is incredibly long – we have the same situation as US to UK run, UK to Russia run and various Asian ports to Japan during WW2
Did anyone say this was a waste of resources?
Plus if you can capture an entire Clan Logistics Fleet – what would that mean to their advancing forces – consumables, replacement personnel, replacement parts, weapons, medicines etc. – and what would that mean to your forces if you can retrofit your forces with their weapons?
The gain is worth the risk. (plus it is a fun game!)
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The whole bidding system then keeping the clans that didn't win out of the IS wouldn't have held.
Then why did it work for the Canon history of the Clan’s Invasion?
Why didn’t the Home Clans just pack their bags and send forces to the IS?
Why – they lost the trials and the bidding – which is a central tenant to clan law and philosophy.
If you want an Alt Universe where all the Clans attack – fine – write it up and present it.
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The clan warriors fight for the legacy to be continued in the future thru the Iron Wombs.
Correct.
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So it makes the idea that Katherine changed their outlook even more likely.
How? Here is where you lose me. Please explain.
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You wanted Psy-ops, what there is a huge one for you.
Since when did the Clan have a psy-ops division …
Or are you suggesting that Katherine’s LA Psy-ops team was so effective that they changed the clans entire way of life, they gave up on all the tenants both Kerensky’s gave them?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 04:13 AM
66.74.60.165
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Do we know where the Clans Logistics fleets arrive within the IS?
Can we work backwards based upon probability where they are jumping from to arrive into the IS? Where would be the best place to recharge – what sun type within rand would offer the best recharge time?
What is the probability of this being accurate?
Do we know their schedule time for when they arrive – is there a pattern that can be discerned – can we work backwards to work out when they arrive in this identified system one jump away?
Funny. I said this about finding the clans home worlds without the exodus road map and got told it couldn't happen.
What changed? (I know, but want to see if you will admit it)
Why did they build a submarine? Really? You don't know that the first silent strike capabilities is why they were created? Use correctly, they can take down several ships before being spotted, then able to run from those without depth charges. Also they were changed over to allowing spec ops to infiltrate enemy shores.
So you finally got it. Katherine's 'charms' showed the clan leaders at least, that having their own kingdom that others don't tell you what to do, is a Psy-op, though it wasn't planned that way. Up until the IS invasion, and even thru it, the only goal for a clan warrior was to pass on their genes. Now they get shown that there is more to life then just that. But it isn't the LA, but Katherine when she was taken by Vlad. Once he started working on a kingdom, others seen it and followed suit.
And the clan history worked out the way the entire game does. TPTB wanted it that way. Odd that you are defending that scenario as you are complaining about realism in the game. It is not realistic that 13 or so clans will just sit back and be denied the chance to be the ilclan. How did you put it? The Mongol way would not allow this sort of action?
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Requiem
02/14/20 07:36 AM
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Do we know where the Clans Logistics fleets arrive within the IS?
Any Internal deliveries via drop-ship will be noted by partisan forces upon any Clan held world – schedules can be contemplated. Commando forces can be arranged ….
Drop-ships can also be captured – computer cores analyzed – the ship itself can be used as a Trojan Horse when taking over a Jump-ship for their Navi Comp as well as the ship itself, the crew and any other Drop-ships (and their cargo) attached to the Jump-ship.
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I said this about finding the clans home worlds without the exodus road map and got told it couldn't happen.
What changed?
With the exodus road you are looking at multiple jump points working backwards, the time taken to compute and work out every possibility to find the correct path the time taken will be considerable, plus how do you know you are on the right path unless you have proof whether each jump point is correct? Do you wait for a ship to go through or is there something that will tell you that this is the right path? – However, the real problem is the HPG ships placed along the exodus road – if just one of them gets a message off you will be facing a Clan Warship fleet sooner or later.
Realism in the Game – with regards to the Clan’s Invasion
Go back and start re-reading everything – the Cannon story has more plot holes in it that can be considered to be realistic – it is more like a series of ideas where and when you try to merge them together have no realistic way to meshing them – but they are used anyway because someone thinks there great and yet if you look even 1mm beneath the surface you will find nothing that makes any sense.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 12:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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The alt might have had black boxes under every pillow, but even then, that information takes time. Now with 5 planets it is far easier to determine when supplies come in. 100 worlds? Randomly using different ones would make that difficult, and waste a lot of your resources as well. And the fact the writers didn't have the clans be smart and start hitting the IS lines is a logic flaw in their superior tactics. It is a primary goal of any war. But they chose to focus on mech combat.
The exodus road is a bunch of BS. The clans did NOT take it all back to the IS, as they did not come in from the OA area. So a few hundred to thousands of light years were not in that trip. The term Exodus Road is useless. Invasion route is more like it.
The right path? 4 clans had supplies coming in, and each one had dropships as well as bases along them. Your simple capturing dropships and jumpships will give you the road back, even though it would be segmented. It is very likely you might start out following the Falcons route, only to jump and find a Bears depot. Then a Jaguar.
With this, another point comes up. Since they all didn't take the same route, did all the maps for the jumps get purged at the same place?
The HPG example is one for the 'Wolf pack' scenario. One message and the warships jump to where your jumpships are sitting at, while you are off raiding the worlds/stations. So that leads to the group being stranded on a world that only has limited supplies, and sooner or later, the massed aerospace fleet runs out of fuel. Or risks having a dump located and destroyed along with those guarding it.
The entire canon storyline has a lot of issues with it. Never said it didn't. I have said that the 'only viable solution' was a problem. It keeps a lot of those issues, and compounds it with more issues. Also, saying the developers don't know how to run their game is a problem, as you do not have their figures on what is available. I do think they just thru in a bunch of garbage and said it was it. To actually fill out every city and such in the game is not possible in a year with even a dozen people. And the novel writers coming up with a more interesting story doesn't help, as they add in things that complicate this even more.
if you look even 1mm beneath the surface you will find nothing that makes any sense.
I like this one. I tell you to get away from canon and you balk.
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Requiem
02/14/20 04:13 PM
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The alt might have had black boxes under every pillow, but even then, that information takes time. Now with 5 planets it is far easier to determine when supplies come in.100 worlds?
What if the information is not coming from the black box network.
What if the information is coming from rogue ComStar HPG adepts who are not happy with the Hilton Head orders to become quislings? What if they set up a means of dead letter drops – encoded messages to IS house intelligence agencies?
It is not unreasonable to believe many adepts would consider The First Circuits orders Treasonous, and wish to become a part of the resistance.
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And the fact the writers didn't have the clans be smart and start hitting the IS lines is a logic flaw in their superior tactics.
The real problem is that the Clans have been treating war like it is a quantifiable game where they can limit the damage since their earliest days.
They have lost the ability to understand how complicated and damaging war can really be …
Just look at their garrison forces …… too small and inept to do anything;
Just look at how they believed IS Worker Caste should just roll over once conquered by their warrior betters – the idea of fighting partisans never occurred to them – the idea came as a complete shock to them;
Their garrisons are also wide open for commando insertion tactics ….;
They have no idea as to artillery, vehicle, conventional fighter / bomber, the use of commando / spy assassinations etc;
They didn’t understand the use of spys (as per the IS uses them);
IEDs – poison food / water;
Psy-Ops against their workers; and many more …..
The clans are way too blinkered as to their way of combat and their way of sociopolitical governance ….
Unfortunately the canon story was also way too blinkered in its writing to produce anything acceptable.
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The exodus road is a bunch of BS. The clans did NOT take it all back to the IS
Agree … there must have been a Deep Periphery worksite where any IS weapon was repurposed for Garrison / Solhama unit and then sent back into the IS as required.
As for the name …the Clans are too hidebound when it comes to their history, they would never change the name from exodus road to invasion route, even if it is a more accurate description – it would dishonor their past and that of their “great” Kerensky.
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The right path? 4 clans had supplies coming in, and each one had dropships as well as bases along them. Your simple capturing dropships and jumpships will give you the road back, even though it would be segmented. It is very likely you might start out following the Falcons route, only to jump and find a Bears depot. Then a Jaguar.
You are quite correct – so do we just stop because it is getting a little difficult or do we press on …..
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With this, another point comes up. Since they all didn't take the same route, did all the maps for the jumps get purged at the same place?
The exodus road is just that, one road from Clan Space to a final space station located within the Deep Periphery – that is used to bulk break Inventory down into each individual clans ordered amounts.
As the Convoy reaches each new HPG ship their Navi. computer is wiped and new coordinates are entered into them to get them to the next HPG Ship ….
As for back in the Deep Periphery – with the arrival of new Inventory shipments from Clan Space each Clan will have a fleet of Merchantmen ready to transport everything to either their front lines or to a supply depo(s). / advance sibko training facilities etc. located within the Deep Periphery – which are used as their vast storehouse of goods etc. as required for day-to-day operations.
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The HPG example is one for the 'Wolf pack' scenario. One message and the warships jump to where your jumpships are sitting at,
Really? Do you believe the IS forces are that stupid? Precautions would be put in place as well as security measures – wouldn’t the transmission site be a site that can be used as a trap (one vengeance class, 40 fighters, and anywhere between 40 to 80 nukes) and in all probability be a minimum of one Jump away from the true base of operations
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It keeps a lot of those issues, and compounds it with more issues. Also, saying the developers don't know how to run their game is a problem, as you do not have their figures on what is available
And what happens when you realize the developers didn’t know the figures at the same time? An RCT is more than just the Mechs contained therein …. And what about conventional fighters / bombers ….. sorry but many of the cannon story battles are a little unrealistic, they just use the Mechs – leave out he vehicles, Infantry aerospace, and conventional fighters - to which when added in would have decimated the canon forces used.
Plus what happens when you realize that the size of your Houses forces have been reduced from the 20 year book down to the House books from (3062) just because they had a page limit per book – in 3050 the F-C had nearly 270 Regiments – by 3062 they only had about 110. Whereas the DC went from 99 down to about 80ish when you look at the page count per book.
Then there is the idea that after the Falcon Vs, Wolf fracas they could just reap additional forces off the other Clans (inc. the IS Jaguars), whilst not forced to fight a trial absorption / not forced to fight a war against the IS ARDC / DC, so that they could return to their original size prior to the conflict is a complete load of BS.
Then there are the issues of Turtle Bay and Huntress …… really?
These are more than just small teething issues … these are huge problems that cannot just be swept under the rug ….
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To actually fill out every city and such in the game is not possible
I agree – all you need is a rough description and you leave the rest up to the imagination of the players.
And over time you slowly build up a massive repository of information regarding every planet that could then be released on one disk for easy downloading - the game is only 35 years old!
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And the novel writers coming up with a more interesting story doesn't help, as they add in things that complicate this even more.
Editors?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 05:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not likely that even a full HPG of sympathizers would send information for long. Comstar ROHM would see to that. They can move without the HPG crew even knowing they are there. So that issue dies quickly.
Well there you go. Alls you need to do to stop the supplies it take a few jump stations and then the clans have no way to advance in either direction as they wipe out the jump code. You effectively cut them in half. Holding the stations so they can get new codes in may be the issue, but that is far easier then most other things. It would force the clans to secure these facilities.
No such thing as editors from the looks of it.
There was nothing done like Kathil for taking out dropships on their way in, which also asks why Mazers are not ground based anti ship weapons. The geothermal power plants sending energy to orbital stations was used as a mazer type set up. But no. Not in the game.
Holding onto an enemy mech and blowing your fusion core isn't in the game, but is in the novels.
Then the rpg. Guns are not auto kills when fired, yet somehow in the books, you can use a small hand gun and shoot someone in the leg and kill them outright.
There are so many more that the writers 'bent' the rules of the game.
By 3025, any base with a sewer system would have massive security watching the pipes for intruders. Yet every single story of infiltration seems to use that very route.
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Requiem
02/15/20 12:36 AM
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Not likely that even a full HPG of sympathizers would send information for long. Comstar ROHM would see to that.
As stated above - encoded messages – they can be very innocuous in nature as well as as they are sending messages you can in-bed information into the message itself where you will need a specific program and key to unlock the message that is hidden within (even within pictures themselves).
Plus – how can ROHM scrutinize every transmission? The only logical way is if every HPG station has a ROHM agent (team) assigned to scrutinize every transmission – and over time adepts will learn how to get around their “auditors”, there is always a way if you know how the policies, procedures and computer programs work.
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It would force the clans to secure these facilities.
Correct …. This is where being incredibly sneaky comes in handy when setting the stage for what is to come ….
Editors ….. This is where 40K etc has the edge … they have such a position …. And with regards to novels Vs. game rules – if a novel does something “interesting” the editor should send an e-mail to the game developer who would then establishing a rule through beta testing – it would then be included with the next version of rules and in the interim it could also be included on a forum for player comment.
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By 3025, any base with a sewer system would have massive security watching the pipes for intruders. Yet every single story of infiltration seems to use that very route.
Only in ancient cities do you see these types of sewer system – in reality they are way, way, smaller. Where the last time I had to know about it is when they used a small robot to coat the inside of the pipe with plastic, if the break is not that severe that is – though that was a few years back.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/15/20 12:38 AM)
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ghostrider
02/15/20 01:11 AM
66.74.60.165
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Not sure how many ROHM agents are stationed where, but you do have more issues then just the sending station.
Comstar techs do not know what the ROHM agents can do or where they are at. And to do anything with this, you need someone at the other end to know what to look for, and it is very probable that any suspicious activity will get crews separated and moved to other facilities and watched. That is if they don't just have an accident.
After one a couple of shipments being hit, they would find out who is reporting it. So no. It would not last long. Now as I said. This might work with 5 worlds, but 100? That is 100 stations that would have to have such sympathizers in it, as well as the stations that receive the information as well. Just one person passing it on to the higher ups would remove them all.
Then it would be a stupid supply commander to continue to send supplies in the same way when you have someone stalking your lines. But then the clans were not worried about that so much since their trials didn't focus on that. But they would learn quickly, or just call in more PGCs and such to guard the lines better.
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Requiem
02/15/20 06:14 AM
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ROHM Agents
Unfortunately there is a lack of knowledge in regard to ROHM Agents, the policies and procedures – duties – how they collect/ utilize / identify any irregularities within transmissions - information from the HPG.
So we are back to guessing ….
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After one a couple of shipments being hit, they would find out who is reporting it.
Er, no …. How good is the Clan’s intelligence agency within the IS? From what I have read they couldn’t find their way out of a wet paper bag – they have no real idea as to what it takes to be a good detective as they haven’t used this within the Clan Space in past couple of centuries.
Sympathizers numbers … again semantics – there is no way of knowing the numbers, it is all a guess – so if you have one hundred worlds roll a 1D100?
Logistics routes – yes you would change the routes, but this is why you attempt to identify these routes and why you have multiple Fenris forces in attempt to stop as much as they can given the information they have on hand.
This may work or it may not – all you can do is your best.
As for PGCs – remember they take 7 months plus to arrive from Clan space – I would also like to ask how may PGCs are within each Clans Touman? Or are you just changing a front lines nime to PGC so that you can get them into the IS? As they are supposed to be the old, the Freebirth and the Solhama.
How many clans would tolerate a large number of PGCs / Solhama units leeching off the True Warriors of their Clans? (Resources allocated to these units would be better off with the TrueBorn Front Line Forces and not the Freeborn!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/15/20 01:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not clan finding out, Comstar finding out. It would be their coms being used to transmit it.
For someone that loves to run the numbers, you have a 20% chance to find the route with 5 worlds. You have a 1% chance with 100 worlds. What is more likely to be guess correctly?
Also, if you only have sympathizers in your station, who will be receiving the reports and passing them on?
Comstar did fix some of the ways that were used by IS agencies sending information like this after the 4th war. So they did have it looking for such issues in transmissions.
As said before, you can set up the raiders, but you run into the same issues. 50% chance of being in the wrong jump point for a normal jump, though you could set it up by having all supply runs come in at the same point of all systems.
Pirate points might be useable, but flight times is the issue. If you are over a week out, then it is likely the supplies will jump back out before you get there, unless the supplies are being grounded.
Depending on the agreement for the invading clans, most of the home clans would love for them to take the PGCs with them. Less forces to defend their lands. A few of the lesser clans would start trials to gain on the greater ones.
But more likely would be the call for additional clans to invade the IS, as the original ones weren't up to the job. Recalling them is possible, but not as likely as having more added.
Also, you seem to forget that the old, freeborn and solemha warriors were there to guard things. The front line takes a dim look at having to do such things as themselves. If nothing, the front line warriors would really give garbage to the PGCs suggesting they couldn't do the job like a warrior, which is why they aren't in the front lines.
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Requiem
02/15/20 04:20 PM
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Not clan finding out, Comstar finding out. It would be their coms being used to transmit it.
So? Unless you can find the embedded message this point is not relevant.
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For someone that loves to run the numbers, you have a 20% chance to find the route with 5 worlds. You have a 1% chance with 100 worlds. What is more likely to be guess correctly?
Please refer to the above different sources of information (02/14/20 at 02:41 AM)
When you factor in these additional sources of information you could increase the 1% chance to an unknown number that is greater than the original 1%. Even to 100% if you get a map and timetable from a Clan Server and they do not realize it!
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So they did have it looking for such issues in transmissions.
Looking for them and finding them are two completely different challenges.
Intelligence gathering / Counter Intelligence -
How much of an expert are the Clans with regards to these two military fields when they have not utilized them to the extent the IS forces have over the past centuries?
The IS have become experts in these two fields during the Succession Wars, can the same be said of the Clans when they have such limited number of worlds as well as their practice of declaring Trials before combat commences …..
So yes I do believe I can say there will be instances where the IS forces will have a very good chance of being at the right spot at the right time.
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Depending on the agreement for the invading clans, most of the home clans would love for them to take the PGCs with them.
Yes I agree, however given some Clans hatred of the aged and their hatred of the free-born how many PGC / Solhama could they actually have? – the Jaguars for example, their martial code would abhor the weak and the free-born – thus their Touman would not include many of these units as they would have gotten rid of them as quickly as possible – it would be seen as a disgrace to have too many of these units within the Clan’s Touman.
That said, when they need them within the IS, there mustn’t have been that many to call upon in the first place!
So where did all of these units magically spring from in the first place when you consider each Clans martial philosophy when it comes to the free-born and the solhama?
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Also, you seem to forget that the old, freeborn and solemha warriors were there to guard things.
Against whom? Non Warrior Castes or how about the Dark Caste? Or how about their own Merchants looking for something big?
Other Clans just declare a Trial to obtain military hardware. So what is the point of having a large standing PGC force on the Clan Home Worlds?
So how did large PGC forces just magically appear for the many IS worlds?
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The front line takes a dim look at having to do such things as themselves. If nothing, the front line warriors would really give garbage to the PGCs suggesting they couldn't do the job like a warrior, which is why they aren't in the front lines.
In which adds credence to my belief there mustn’t have been many of these units on the Clan Home Worlds to start with?
So how did large PGC forces just magically appear for the many IS worlds?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/15/20 08:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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They will find the embedded coding. It may not be for months, but they would. Once they find out there is a leak, it will be found. Only so many people can report that jumpships come in at such and such that are clan ships. Not hard to figure out where to start looking at.
So you would have a map for supplies on the first guess of where supplies are shipping thru? No way. After you get ahold of ships or where supplies are stored, you might, but it wouldn't be that hard to shift where they are sent to after a few repeated raids on the same base.
The instances is the first statement that has some bite. There will be times they get lucky. But it is not something you can rely on, unless you get into the real main stream of supplies and you have to have the resources to do something with. The alt might have them, but not likely anything else.
And this may open up a logic hole as well. Time to build ships verses how many are destroyed each year. They don't pop them out 3 a month for jumpships in one building bay.
Hating the failed warriors is one thing, but having them being required over rides that hatred. The Freeborns being banned is stated as such. But they had to have more then a few of them, as they were the ones to garrison the Jaguars properties. Not sure how much of each PGC was used at each one, so that leaves some breathing room. But given the fact any clan can challenge for almost any thing at any time, you have to have units to defend with, and that isn't saying you are going out to challenge for things yourself.
Without the numbers, it could very well be that each facility each clan owned, might have had a PGC guarding them. Then again, it might have been just the world. And they were necessary, as the front line units were not going to get involved in things unless it was very important. A clan can take something from you, so you challenge to take it back. It is the way of the trials.
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Requiem
02/15/20 11:23 PM
1.158.235.15
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They will find the embedded coding. It may not be for months, but they would. Once they find out there is a leak, it will be found.
Sorry but this cannot be verified as correct. They may or they may not.
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So you would have a map for supplies on the first guess of where supplies are shipping thru? No way.
What would happen if they look a clan base of jump-ship and they found the map list of Logistics dates on the computer then what?
What if you find the location of one of the Clan’s major supply bases?
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Time to build ships verses how many are destroyed each year. They don't pop them out 3 a month for jumpships in one building bay.
Again another fact that cannot be verified, and may change if you adopt the alt. total war production changes to your game.
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Hating the failed warriors is one thing, but having them being required over rides that hatred.
What if you have one superior officer who decides to sends you out, knowing you are not coming back – a Jag. Trueborn could do this very easily …..
This is the point how many PGCs and Solhama units will a Clan tolerate – as they are just a minor step up from a surat ….
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Without the numbers, it could very well be that each facility each clan owned, might have had a PGC guarding them.
Why? What’s the point? What are they defending against on the Clan Home worlds – it is not as if the Worker Caste will sabotage the place – or do they expect the Dark Caste to attack?
As for any real attack – it will be conducted via a Trial of Possession and that will require a front line unit and not a PGC.
So what is the point of having a large PGC / Solhama complement if the only reason you have them is to do the dirty work no one else wants to do – fight the dark caste.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/16/20 01:55 AM
66.74.60.165
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The clans do not wait for units to arrive for a challenge. They fight the unit that is currently there.
Still showing a lack of understanding of clan ways and culture.
And for some warriors, being sent on a one way mission is preferred over a long slide into obscurity.
Why have them when the only reason is to fight the dark caste? They don't fight the dark caste until attacked or ordered to. But then garrisons are not in your game plans. It is all attack or full units in one location. The idea that not every mine is within a city limit, or the factory was forced to be 20 miles from it, as the pollution was that bad. A dropship manufacturer was on the plains in the middle of no where as that was the best place to build them. Military bases are scattered across worlds, systems, even different systems.
Techs are one step below solemha units, but they are necessary. Workers are even lower, but if you want to eat, you have to have them. So unless the high and mighty warriors want to do the dirty work of garrison duty, they have to have the PGCs. And that is also where you get the quick reinforcements from when you lose a chunk in a unit. So having them skilled is necessary as well.
A mech is easier to build then a jumpship, and they can't be built that quickly. That is from start to finish, not the assembly line count. Massive number of lines won't change how long it takes to build that one mech.
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Requiem
02/16/20 02:11 AM
1.158.235.15
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The clans do not wait for units to arrive for a challenge. They fight the unit that is currently there.
Then why have PGCs and Solhama units at all? Clans could target their rivals second rate units to get what they want through multiple Trials of Possession?
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Techs are one step below solemha units, but they are necessary. Workers are even lower, but if you want to eat, you have to have them.
Tell that to a Jaguar.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/16/20 02:32 AM
66.74.60.165
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Wow. Now you figured out why they have PGCs. The clans can target what they want, when they want. As you don't have enough forces to cover everything with front line troops, you have to do something.
And the Jaguars know the order of things. Doesn't mean they are going to be nice to anyone that isn't capable of shoving a fist down their throats.
The clans are much like the IS. You have so many things you have to guard, that it is best to keep your best troops out of normal fights so you can use them to hit anyone that opens up.
I believe there is something in the trials that prevents you from attacking, losing, then sending in another unit right away. Might be the loss of honor that prevents this.
But that does not stop them from taking a few days before doing it again. Though they would probably have to deal with a front line unit soon afterwards.
Without PGCs, you would lose your front line units, as multiple clans would be biting at your constantly. After a while, you don't have any front line troops in a condition to fight.
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Requiem
02/16/20 05:55 PM
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Wow. Now you figured out why they have PGCs. The clans can target what they want, when they want. As you don't have enough forces to cover everything with front line troops, you have to do something.
From the Clan’s point of view, this doesn’t make sense!
If you need a unit to “protect” a certain area do you really need to go to the extent of having forces “guard” everything – or can you just have forces guard everything within a certain geographical area? So when a Trial of Possession is Called for it goes straight to the front line True-born Military Unit that Governs and Protects that entire area.
Also over time can’t you phase out all free-born units so that all you have remaining is True-born / Solhama?
The only reason I can see why you need free-born warriors is to do the jobs the True-born would never do – and the only jobs that fit that bill is killing off other Free-born Caste Members of your own Clan that have gone rogue or fighting the Bandit Caste.
Thus given the lack of any need for them there really should not be that many PGCs as stated the need for them on the Clan’s Home world is not there to begin with so the resources allocated to them should be minimized …. From a Clan’s point of view there is no real need for them so why have them – it is not as if the Clan’s need a filler group of second rate Free-born units as they really do not need them in great numbers on the Clan Home Worlds.
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The clans are much like the IS. You have so many things you have to guard, that it is best to keep your best troops out of normal fights so you can use them to hit anyone that opens up.
When you consider wars are conducted in Clan space through a neat and orderly system of Trial’s of possession etc the idea you need to guard everything (as they do in the IS) is no longer a plausible requirement.
In the IS a guarding force is required everywhere as your attacking force will attack everything and at any time. They will attack and destroy whatever they want to get to their prize – fighting in the inner sphere is very messy involving vast armies.
However, in Clan Space all you need is a regional Garrison Force who will accept the challenge of any other Clan for whatever the challenge is concerning – they then determine the number each force will use and then move off to a pre-determined battlefield, fight, and determine the winner in a nice clean sanitized and orderly manner of war and in so doing there is no damage to their people or facilities.
There is a vast difference in how the two fight – one is incredibly sanitized the other is conducted in all its horror and on a size and scope the clan have never really seen since the days Nicholas formed the Clans.
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Without PGCs, you would lose your front line units, as multiple clans would be biting at your constantly. After a while, you don't have any front line troops in a condition to fight.
Doesn’t this statement go against everything the Clan Warriors believes in?
Do they really need a group of Free-born surats to act as their shields when they are the greatest gene-created warrior ever to have been forged! Don’t they need to constantly prove they are the best – and this can only be done in constant combat so that in the fullness of time their genes will produce the next generation of great warriors.
To a Clan Warrior (and their sanitized version of war) is it not the air they breath … is it not the reason they were created! So why allow a freeborn to fight first or even at all?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/16/20 09:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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You have troops stationed in Europe. They are in Belgium. The enemy bids to take Spain from you. Not the entire continent, just Spain. How do you guard against that with all forces in one location (Blegium)?
Concentration of forces can't be done in every occasion, especially when the enemy has the ability to wipe them all out with one strike.
It doesn't seem like understanding WHY you can't have your entire force in one location is getting thru. And with this, you have to defend with what is there, not just instantly say you have units on the Eastern front there in the time it takes to say such a thing.
You can eliminate all Freeborn units. But then you are down so many garrison units it isn't even funny. Why do you think the Jaguars and Falcons were having so many issues with population control? They didn't have the forces to do much. They had to reduce the amount of worlds they would attack to deal with such things in the invasion. Wow. They did figure this out in the writing.
Maybe this might get you to understand you can not sit in one location and guard a world.
You have 25 factories spread around the world. How do you stop 10 different strikes against them? What? You send them out from the one point to deal with them, but by the time they get there the factories are sacked/raided or in trials, property of another clan. Now you just lost 10 of the factories you need to continue to survive. And I would bet you would move the entire force from their bunker unit in order to get them back, leaving 15 more open to being hit, as well as your main place where they were sitting. There is no 'hold on. I need to get my forces here.' in this. They are there now and will do the fighting now. 2 hours is far too late with no one there to even attempt to guard them.
Also read the rules of trials. They can be declared at any time, in any place. They can be set to a specific place, or here and now. If you don't have anything to defend with, then it is your faulty genes that cause a stupid mistake of not having forces there to stop them. Sound about right?
To the clan warrior victory is the most wanted thing. Those in the front lines don't think they should be guarding things, and even with that, there would not be enough to last very long if you used just blood named and warriors that tested out. Did more then a single clan attack the Wolverines at once? How about 3 or more? You are weak, if you only have your front line as defense and attack. A single bad battle will have you losing more troops and 'honor'. Nothing will stop your decline. You don't have reserves to draw on, and as you pointed out, your sibkos will not replace the losses fast enough. Even with a yearly graduation, the enemy will have that many more units then you do.
And if they really wanted to make you look bad, sending in a freeborn unit to take an objective would make you the laughing stock of the clan society. Only one this would be worse. Losing to the Dark Caste.
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Requiem
02/17/20 12:01 AM
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You have troops stationed in Europe. They are in Belgium. The enemy bids to take Spain from you. Not the entire continent, just Spain. How do you guard against that with all forces in one location (Blegium)?
Yes this is a valid argument if you are fighting a conventional army during a conventional war.
However, in Clan space where sanitized bidding, as well as prearranged battlefields are determined in an effort to restrict the overall damage done this idea can no longer be considered valid!
Especially if each area of your Clan’s enclave is given to a specific Galaxy and when you initiate a Trial Possession that Galaxy Commander determines an appropriate response this idea of having specific garrisons to guard specific assets can no longer be considered valid!
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It doesn't seem like understanding WHY you can't have your entire force in one location is getting thru.
This is not the IS with house units and mercenaries attacking and defending vast swathes of land.
This is the Clan Home Worlds – where announced Trial initiate wars (rather than the sneak attacks of the IS) where sensitized warfare determine their battles (rather than the all out warfare of the IS).
They are two completely different philosophies and systems of warfare.
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You can eliminate all Freeborn units. But then you are down so many garrison units it isn't even funny.
Again why?, when your battles are all predetermined and sanitized.
In a clan Trial – they arrive and declare with what forces you defend this or that …. The defenders then say a trinary from a Freeborn unit … the attackers then match their forces or reduce their forces as per the bidding process ..
So, it really doesn’t matter if you have a PGC unit of 15 Mechs or a Trinary of Trueborn …. The number is irrelevant, so you can remove all the Free-borns if necessary and just replace them with a smaller number of Trueborn … the attacking force will always match their forces to that of the defending units … thus numbers become irrelevant if you use this sanitized version of War ….
You could place one assault mech at each place and it still will not matter the attacking force has to still bid an appropriate amount …. another assault, one heavy , two medium, three to four light
Numbers within Clan space as to the PGCs are quire ridiculous – you do not need them they are for the most part an irrelevant concept within Clan Warrior Traditions. The only reason you would have them in large numbers is to protect your borders against another Freeborn society (The Dark Caste?) that has their own military force in large numbers – and as such the True born do not concern themselves with regards to this never ending war with this close by society as they are Freeborn and as such beneath their contempt – if Trueborns do fight them it is only as a training exercise.
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Wolverines
How can you compare an extermination order of an entire Clan, where the rules no longer apply, to the day-to-day battles of Trials of possession ….
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A single bad battle will have you losing more troops and 'honor'. Nothing will stop your decline.
Question: When building your military via a Sibko system as well as getting rid of the majority of your Free-born from the military wouldn’t you take this into account when assigning numbers to undergo their trial of position?
I would also like to point out that if the majority of all clans adopt this system the point becomes mute – if everyone has almost equal numbers the point as to numbers becomes irrelevant once more.
Question - considering the clan’s phobia with regards to Free-born if they could get rid of them from the military don’t you think they would?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/17/20 01:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Where does it say that there are prearranged battlefields for trials of possession?
Trials of position, yes. But battlefields for possession is much like Grievance. It is decided at the time of the challenge, and near the thing being challenged for. There isn't much of the idea of moving the fight to a different political area to do the fight. You defend with onsite forces, or you lose it immediately. The clans are as much about embarrassment of the enemy as it is about showing your that much better. They don't do to the lengths of some IS fights, but it is still there. And this also happens within a clan as well.
The clans have their trials, which limits damage to things like buildings being fought over, it does not let you hold off a challenge while you send forces to the location from any real distance. It is possible for one clan to challenge for the only bridge across a river just to annoy the hell out of the other clan. It could well be to set up further conquests as well. Can't use the bridge until you defeat the forces there. That means you can't send your forces across the ground in order to meet other challenges.
You don't care if the enemy kills your front line troops from basically a sneak attack that asks right before the attack on what you defend with? You leave your best units open to a massive size difference in numbers. The internal bidding for attacking does not have to be reduced to the point that you can win on defense. Your trinary could very well face a full cluster. Complain all you want, your force is dead. Replace them now. What's that? You don't have reserves as you don't have anything to draw them from. What a shame. He comes the next challenge. The challenging clan bids to reduce the number, but it does not have to be close to what you defend with. What was that about 3 to 1?
Also there is the humility factor to consider. A unit of freeborns in old garbage mechs, may actually defeat your unit of omni driving 'elite' warriors. But you would prefer to rely on the omnis for everything, and therefor start losing more and more battles as the omnis are down as well as pilots. The only excuse that could be made is not knowing the frequency of trials.
Using the Wolverines to show that even up forces aren't likely going to be happening. You could win against one challenge then have a second one come before you get your forces back up to full. Then another. This is the very fear the Falcons and Wolves had after the refusal war.
Do you understand the sibko graduation trials? You start off with 100 children in a sibko. They grow up together and the weak are removed as they do so. How are you going to assign the numbers that undergo the trial of position? The ones that don't fail before the last test are the ones that undergo the trial. So unless you change the parameters of what causes to fail their test, how do you increase this number that does make it? The best of the best. Now you want the more to survive, not the best of the best. Increasing the number of sibkos is one way, but I do believe there is a limit on this for all clans. To have excess is a waste.
How is the point moot when it is smart tactics that allows you to bring in forces needed to take an objective without losing more forces then necessary? And think of this as well. When fighting freeborns, will come of the clans bother with bondsmen?
And with this, saying all the clans are one way is making a very large mistake. I won't say any of them love the freeborns, but some do like having them fill in spots beneath the omni and blood named pilots.
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Requiem
02/17/20 05:22 PM
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Where does it say that there are prearranged battlefields for trials of possession?
Read between the lines!
Clans hate waste – they also ensured this whole system of Trials to ensure there was no damage to the overall infrastructure and the people of Clan space due to War.
What happens if everything near their objective has been used for another civilian purpose – what are you going to do next?
So where else are they going to fight? The middle of a city, the local agricultural fields, or how about the local Park – the children’s swing looks like a good defensible spot, or how about the sandpit – entrench an elemental and he will be hard to dislodge?
So where else? There must be dedicated fields – Salisbury Plains in England used exclusively by their Military so that they do not damage what they are after.
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You defend with onsite forces, or you lose it immediately.
Where is this written?
When considering how small Clan Space really is how can you not have dedicated areas in which to fight. As the rest of all of the planets must be used for agriculture and civilian settlements (have a look at each world’s populations – these are not small numbers). Thus if local forces only – then they must move to a dedicated battlefield or risk damaging civilian areas.
So again the idea of PGCs is once again a mute point – they do not need them in any great numbers!
As for the bridge – you loose the bridge, big deal, just build a new one next to it and keep moving on – who feels sheepish now?
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You don't care if the enemy kills your front line troops from basically a sneak attack that asks right before the attack on what you defend with?
Where is this written?
If you attack a trinary with a cluster – what does this say to the Honor of the unit that bid a cluster?
TRO 3050 – Page 7 – Bidding – “Whoever promises to take the “planet” with the fewest forces gets the task. That commander can still call on the full number of troops of his first bid, but to do so would be a great loss of face. The Clans usually commit about half the number of ‘Mechs as the defending force.”
So yes you can attack with a Cluster all you want but to do so you will be ridiculed by every other Clan – extreme loss of face for yourself and for your entire Clan.
So again numbers are an irrelevant concept within the Clan Home Worlds – the only thing that matters is winning with the smallest force you can – this shows you are a ristar – and gets you the chance of competing for your bloodname – and your genes to be used for the next generation.
So again the premise you need Freeborn PGCs in numbers is a completely irrelevant concept to the Clans.
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What was that about 3 to 1?
Apples and Oranges again
Clan Space is one thing but when you transport your forces to the IS you should expect the IS to change the rules and they will attack with 3:1 or even higher.
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knowing the frequency of trials.
Within Clan Space over the years the number and frequency of trials would become an expected and quantifiable value – except when a Clan gets a new Khan – at this point he would want to cement his reputation and the number of trials would increase for a time.
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You could win against one challenge then have a second one come before you get your forces back up to full. Then another.
All this shows is that your Clan is weak and the weak should be killed off! … I call for a Trial of Absorption!
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…. sibko graduation trials …. The best of the best …..
This has always been their achilles heel – you want more forces then increase the number of Sibkos or try to get more through, but relying on Freeborns to make up your numbers just shows how weak a Clan you are!
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How is the point moot when it is smart tactics that allows you to bring in forces needed to take an objective without losing more forces then necessary? And think of this as well. When fighting freeborns, will come of the clans bother with bondsmen?
As a True-born, where is the glory in fighting a Free-born for anything?
How am I going to recognized as a ristar if I am always assigned to attacking Free-born targets?
Again over time the concept of having Freeborn units within Clan Space should be discouraged as it goes against the entire Clan Martial philosophy.
Like the Idea of Wardens and Crusaders there should also be the pure True born Clan versus the mixed Free / True born Clan Warrior political parties at the same time.
Thus the Wardens would be Mixed; and
The Crusaders should be true.
This is only logical when you consider their underlying dogma when it comes to the idea of the purity of a warrior. Only Trueborns can obtain a Blood Name and obtain the higher ranks – including sa-khan and khan.
The Clans are into racial “Gene” supremacy! This is who they are ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/17/20 05:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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Could it be that all buildings must reside within a specific area, and the rest of the world is the fighting arena? It may well be that the civilian buildings are in the combat area so the true borns can remove some of them, especially if those buildings are deemed illegal? Fights can be done in cities as well. The dislike of such actions are there, but it won't stop them.
Really? Just build one next to it? Waste time and resources to do so, only to lose that one as well?
I supposed it would be better to just bombard the base all your forces are in and remove your clan from existance. The others might be upset a little, but now they don't have to deal with you anymore.
The Castle idea of war died when the cannon was created, and became a death trap when bombs and missiles came about.
The attack with a cluster was against another clan. Nothing in that statement said anything about hitting the IS. And even that was violated more then a few times. Nothing happened to those that did it. Well nothing that was written about.
And let's face it. The last battle with Ulric ended how? With a massed fire of guided missiles. Not one on one, or even three on one, but stars on one. And it isn't like the larger attacking force is something new to the clans.
Call for a trial of absorbtion. Nothing was said it was the same clan. And the clans have done this in the past as well. Even undeclared attacks. There was no trial to remove the Wolverines. There was no trail to remove Widowmaker. The entire Widowmaker clan died because one warrior shot and killed Nicholas. The general fighting for a position in the invasion force would have dealt with things like this. Each clan fighting to be the top, and it didn't take years to do. I want to say 6 months was the written number.
As you stated. Increase the sibkos. So 16 or so years later, you will have reinforcements.
Lessen the requirements to become a warrior. Weaken the clan as you have forsaken the clans sibko traditions. Marthe did it on Coventry, and nothing was said or done about it. You still have warriors from older graduations disgusted by this. Most clanners would rather die, then change customs.
OH, I love that one. A true born will not attack a freeborn unit as there is not glory in it?
This is a very good reason to have the PGCs. I don't have to do anything but put some ok warriors in a few old mechs, and you will never attack anything I own. While I can take your things, as you will not be able to hold out for long. And it wouldn't be just one clan to hit either. This isn't a one on one, where stand and deliver is the way.
There have been freeborn leaders in the clans. Not just Phelan, but Nicholas and others. And you still don't get it. You want all your forces in one big cluster. Fine. You will die as you have no rescources to even reload, much less build new units. No repairs will get done as you don't have the resources to make them, and declaring trials for them will only get more and more declaring trials against you.
There is nothing saying you can only be attacked by a single clan. Each hit a different location at the same time. Oooops. Only one location has units.
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Requiem
02/17/20 08:01 PM
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Fights can be done in cities as well.
Considering the Clan’s ideas concerning waste …. Prove it!
I have never read of a Trail (in Clan Space) being conducted within an occupied City. Book and Page No. please.
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Really? Just build one next to it?
Yes, they fought over the bridge – they won – they can have it! – in building a second bridge it makes the attackers look very foolish in the eyes of the other Clans as well as the Grand Council – what you have effectively done is turn their efforts into a joke!
Is this not the Clan way?
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I supposed it would be better to just bombard the base all your forces are in and remove your clan from existence.
First you need approval from the Grand Council – Trial of Extermination.
The rules of the game must be adhered to, that is unless you want your Clan to undergo a Trial of Extermination for the same charge as the Wolverines …. Their egregious disrespect of Clan Tradition.
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The Castle idea of war died when the cannon was created, and became a death trap when bombs and missiles came about.
Question: What is a Castle Brian? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Castle_Brian
And on the bottom of the page ….
“Sadalbari Brian Castle, in Draconis Combine space: partially destroyed, however was used as a base during the battles of this planet in the War of 3039.”
And the Big MAC romp through FS space didn’t they end up attacking a fortress and breaching its walls?
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and became a death trap when bombs and missiles came about.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Graham_IV
“The two remaining Castles Brian were Fort Baldwin, located near the planetary capital, DeKirk City, and Fort Ball. Each would take the better part of eight weeks to subdue; the Republican forces attempted to crack each with repeated nuclear strikes ….”
How can they be considered death traps when they can survive “repeated nuclear strikes”?
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Nothing happened to those that did it. Well nothing that was written about.
Correct …. Nothing that was written about …but when you take into account Clan traditions loss of face would have been the minimum – loss of being considered a ristar – loss of being ablte to compete for a Blood name …. It all compounds one onto the next onto the next within Clan society ….
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The last battle with Ulric ended how?
Question what battle was being fought at the time? Could it have been the Refusal War ….in which the Falcons would later call a Trial of Absorption ….which was fought more like a Trial of Extermination.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ulric_Kerensky
“As they spoke, Chistu employed a small laser to spot for hidden elements of the Jade Falcon Keshik, who then launched their Long Range Missiles upon Ulric and his honor guard Star. Ulric's Gargoyle charged towards Chistu, but was incinerated by the mass fire. His death, though a complete violation of Clan laws, effectively brought the Trial of Refusal against the Grand Council vote to an end.”
A COMPLETE VIOLATION OF CLAN LAWS
So how will all the other Clans take this violation killing the ilKhan during an honorable battle by the Jade Falcons? Especially one so formidable as Ulric …. By this action the Jade Falcons have proven themselves once again to be cowardly and weak in the eyes of their fellow Clans, the shame of it all!
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Call for a trial of absorption.
If a Clan proves themselves to be weak they should be destroyed.
Wolverines …. Nicholas called for the Trial, read Betrayal of Ideals …. As well as,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolverine
“The ilKhan commanded Clan Snow Raven to take the battle to the Wolverines on Circe as he planned the ultimate punishment: the Trial of Annihilation.“
Widowmaker ….
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Widowmaker
Started as a Trial of Absorption - “In the summer of 2834, the Widowmakers massacred their own merchants during a caste dispute. Though the Widowmakers blamed the Wolves for stirring up the merchants, the Grand Council agreed with Khan Jerome Winson of Clan Wolf to question their right to rule and gave the Wolves the right to absorb them.”
Ended as a Trial of Annihilation – “Whether by design or by accident, Khan Jorgensson killed ilKhan Kerensky, sending the Wolf Clan into a frenzy of vengeance.”
Thus there were Trials for both Wolverine and Widowmaker …..
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As you stated. Increase the sibkos. So 16 or so years later, you will have reinforcements. Lessen the requirements to become a warrior.
About 2870 the eugenics program to produce genetically superior warriors commenced;
The Clans invaded the IS in 3050;
So in 180years the Clans couldn’t wean themselves off of using Free-born and start using only True-born?
Sorry but this seems very strange when you live in a society where ones genes determine their position in a caste driven society …
So can you explain why after 180 years they still rely on any free-born individual to fill out their military when they are perceived to be so inferior?
The entire Clan society is based upon the premise of racial “gene” superiority – so why keep them? It is custom that we do so? Sorry but I cannot see this a good enough an excuse …
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OH, I love that one. A true born will not attack a freeborn unit as there is not glory in it?
This is a very good reason to have the PGCs. I don't have to do anything but put some ok warriors in a few old mechs, and you will never attack anything I own. While I can take your things, as you will not be able to hold out for long. And it wouldn't be just one clan to hit either. This isn't a one on one, where stand and deliver is the way.
The Clan warrior society is all about glory in combat – as well as the prowess of your Touman through vast campaigns to improve the standing of your Clan over that of your rivals.
Please explain how using Free-born surats as a shield does anything but produce scorn and derision in the hearts of your fellow Clans-men, to the point they will view your Clan and your Khan as weak and call for a Trial of Absorption?
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There have been freeborn leaders in the clans.
Can we remember that due to his mother’s lineage …. As well as a gene evaluation …Phelan was recognized a being both a Free-born and at the same time having the same genes as that of a True-born … otherwise he would not have been allowed to compete for a Bloodname and as a recipient of a Bloodname he was given the position of Khan of Clan Wolf (in Exile).
So again we have proof of the clans belief in racial “gene” supremacy.
As for Nicholas, did they have gene warriors back then, did they exist at all?
Since the introduction of large numbers of True-born warriors can you think of any leaders that have not been True-born?
The Clans are a proponent for Racial Superiority!
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Only one location has units.
Comprehension once again …. Please go back and re-read what was written …
What was stated that for an entire Clans holdings it be divided up into smaller holdings in which each of these smaller holdings is controlled by a galaxy of your Troops. In the event your area is called upon for a Trial of Possession – The Galaxy Commander will assign a unit (the size / importance of which will be appreciable to the importance of what the Trial is concerning) when asked “With what forces do you defend …..”. They then send that unit to the pre-designated battlefield in that area – they fight win / loose – territory kept / lost … all very neat and clean the way Clan Society has evolved the practices of war to that of an approximation of what true war is within the IS.
The philosophy / conduct of war within the Clan Space and that of the IS are two completely different procedures. Of which were completely overlooked – for the most part.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/17/20 08:02 PM)
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ghostrider
02/17/20 11:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Where do you think the massacres of civilians happened during the Falcons and Jaguars purges? They just had them all walk out into a field to die? And chasing down the Wolverines as well as the Widowmakers? They had to have some fights in cities. Can't weed out the people if they stay in the cities, now can you?
You do not need the approval of the council for removing your massed forces. A simple challenge would allow me to strike you where you are at. It would not be my fault you put them all in one location, so they all died at the same time. And some would applaud that action.
The examples of castles being used did NOT have their entire force in them. They were staging bases, and with the MAC strikes they had forces in a lot of other places. Part of why they didn't have the full regiment able to attack the small forces guarding the location. Oh wait. They had forces all over the world, and the MAC attacked them all with smaller forces?
The example of the bridge really is funny. You would waste resources building another bridge, because your forces were not able to fight for the one they lost? I guess being the weakest clans would come from that one. Couldn't defend it, now can't even fight for it. Dezgra clan comes to mind.
Defending the underpowered nukes of the game? The writers wanted it to survive, so it did. Having repeated nukes dropped and still having anything above ground still existing just doesn't work.
Still not understanding the use of things to get ahead? The clans still use normal weapons, yet they have the advanced versions of them. Why continue to build and use them? Because they don't want the advanced stuff on garrison units. Does this sound smart? No. It sounds like cutting your nose of to spite your face. But until you understand you have to guard your facilities, you will never understand the use of the PGCs.
Saying the clan is weak if they use PGCs, yet I can guarantee you will not run your clan long when you forces your warriors to sit around in garrison duties, or worse, lose all your resources as you feel they aren't necessary to continue to even repair them. Trials of Grievance, Refusal, Positions and others would continue against you until you are removed. Those things you lose may well be their genetic material or mechs. But your death match concepts of war will never let you see the real side of war.
Through out the history of the clans, someone born of two trueborns outside of the Iron Wombs was not allowed to fight for a blood name. And it wouldn't be allowed to contribute to the gene pool. No matter the parents standing, they are a freeborn. You want tradition bound things, there is a very strong one.
And using troops that you refuse to attack, makes you look weak, as you won't even try to take out freeborns. So I can hit your resources with no fear of retaliation, as you won't even look at the freebirths. So I could even use them on the attack, so you slink away from defending. Cowardice in the extreme. Afraid of the big bad freeborns.
How many galaxies does a single clan have? How many areas do they have to guard as well as being used to take from others? Now how many times are you going to lose warriors in any fight? Attrition isn't the nasty word for only the IS. It is done in the clans as well. You are weak if you can't replace your loses.
The idea that you can dispatch forces to cover a trial held a distance away doesn't work. Get that straight now. You fight with the units on location at that moment. I call to ask what forces defend the water hole. If you do not have anything there, then I win by default. Suggesting that you can send units there after the challenge is sent, will make your weak clan the laughing stock of the clans. It will also lead to your eventual downfall, as any sort of resources would not be there.
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Requiem
02/18/20 01:44 AM
1.158.235.15
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Massacres –
How can these be the same as Trial of Possession?
Trial of Absorption –
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rite_of_Absorption
“The Grand Council can vote to allow one Clan to absorb another, but only by a unanimous vote.”
Trial of Annihilation
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Annihilation
“This trial can only be invoked by a unanimous vote of the appropriate council, and only for the most heinous crimes against Clan society.”
Trials of Possession
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Possession
“It allows the performance of regulated raids for specific critical assets while minimizing losses due to unplanned and unannounced raiding. It also eliminates collateral damage and danger to non-combatants.”
“… begin with a ritual challenge called a Batchall, where the challenger declares his/her name, the type of trial and other parameters. These parameters are dictated by the type of trial that the attacker proposes. In a Trial of Possession the declared parameters are the prize to be won.”
“….In situations where the prize is an installation or other location the Circle is created in a proxy location to prevent collateral damage to the prize itself.”
“…..a circle or sphere that has a radius of about .... two to five kilometers for 'Mech combat …. The circle of equals ensures no non-combatants are caught in the conflict, and in larger battles, there is no collateral damage to surrounding building and equipment.”
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The examples of castles being used did NOT have their entire force in them.
So? ….. consider the size of an original Castle Brian, how many can be placed in the larger ones …
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You would waste resources building another bridge, because your forces were not able to fight for the one they lost?
No, I would waste recourses to make sport of another clans foolishness and pride ..
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Defending the underpowered nukes of the game?
What happens if these fortresses are so deep that multiple strikes do not work …? What happens if the doors are protected by unknown meters of solid rock or metal …. ?
NORAD?
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The clans still use normal weapons, yet they have the advanced versions of them. Why continue to build and use them? Because they don't want the advanced stuff on garrison units.
And here I though they wanted more advanced weapons to defeat their rival Clans.
I really don’t think they care about their Free-born and what they have …. they even give them vehicles ….
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Saying the clan is weak if they use PGCs, yet I can guarantee you will not run your clan long when you forces your warriors to sit around in garrison duties
In comparison to a Clan with all True-born warriors – you are weak! (Demonstration of what Clansman who believes in Racial “Gene” Superiority may say)
Again the concept of retaining Free-born warriors after a century of having iron wombs is ludicrous you do not need them! - Their only real purpose is to fight the Dark Caste when they Don't need to Blood their own younger pilots!
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Through out the history of the clans, someone born of two trueborns outside of the Iron Wombs was not allowed to fight for a blood name.
And when they save the Khans life and demonstrate a level of martial prowess as Phelan they too will be allowed to contest for a Bloodname …..
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Afraid of the big bad freeborns.
First, How will the other Clans think of you for using Freeborn warriors like this? You had better hope they win for if they don’t you and your clan will be ridiculed at the next Grand Council ….and even If they do win, expect them to be hit hard as an object lesson in retaliation as well as the enmity of the Clan you did this to … so no friends in the Grand Council for this act ….
Second, Internal Politics, as Khan when you use them how will this affect the internal politics of your Clan? …. Expect a Trial of Position asap!
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How many galaxies does a single clan have? How many areas do they have to guard as well as being used to take from others? Now how many times are you going to lose warriors in any fight? Attrition isn't the nasty word for only the IS. It is done in the clans as well. You are weak if you can't replace your loses.
Wolf
1. Alpha Galaxy, 2. Beta Galaxy, 3. Delta Galaxy, 4. Epsilon Galaxy, 5. Gamma Galaxy, 6. Iota Galaxy, 7. Kappa Galaxy, 8. Theta Galaxy, 9. Tau Galaxy, 10. Sigma Galaxy, 11. Omega Galaxy
So you can’t section your clan Home worlds Holdings into 11 pieces?
And after 100 plus years of constant fighting in the Clan Home worlds don’t you think they have worked out a correct rate of replacement personnel given their current Loss Depletion Deport over this time period?
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The idea that you can dispatch forces to cover a trial held a distance away doesn't work.
Time to re-read the rules of a Trial of Possession – there is nothing in the rules regarding this!
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You fight with the units on location at that moment. I call to ask what forces defend the water hole.
Actually you don’t, you ask, with what forces are you going to defend this water hole – not, what forces are here to defend this water hole …..
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If you do not have anything there, then I win by default
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Possession
Please read the rules again … no, no you do not!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/18/20 02:22 AM
1.158.235.15
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After re-reading the rules of a Trial of Possession once again, I would like to ask a question ….
How would a Clan Officer who has been fighting in Clan Trials of Possession etc where their entire philosophy is based upon the premises of ….
Minimizing Losses;
Eliminating collateral damage and danger to non-combatants;
A Batchall is issued;
The idea a Circle of equals is created;
The prize has been pre-determined;
et al
When fighting in the IS every single one of these philosophical values no longer exist …
Battle is about inflicting the maximum amount of losses;
Collateral damage is quite understandable given the terrain the battle may shift to;
Sneak attacks and any other strategic advantage you can get is acceptable and expected;
There is no circle of equals the Battles can shift all over the planet
There is but one prize the planet itself.
Wouldn’t there be a period of shock as well as coming to terms with how the IS fights – the level of destruction is something the Clans have never seen before ever – the strategies used by the IS would horrify them – blowing up buildings to kill elementals – the amount and variety of traps used – partisan tactics - Guerilla Warfare – IEDs – Poison – Assassination – Commando Strike Group Tactics – Kidnapping –
How would you come to grips with this level of devastation, the amount of people being killed and means of killing warriors?
They are coming from a sanitized version of war to the complete horrors of war – there must have been a psychological shift when it comes to fighting in the IS.
Second Question – after Wolf’s dragoons explained Clan Trials etc ….
Can I ask why the IS didn’t decide to use their own traditions against them ….
The Clans win Planet “X” which has a military facility on it – why can’t the IS return to that planet and start a Batchall – not for the planet – but that military facility or civilian city for that matter – thus if the IS wins the IS force now has Garrisons on the Clan world, that the Clan force had originally taken from the IS.
Why is it that the IS have to fight for the whole planet every time, why can’t they fight for a part of a planet?
Thus establishing a beachhead for any future invasion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/18/20 03:05 AM
66.74.60.165
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Massacres are not trial of possession, but could be grievance. If a trial is even called. It was to show the clans did fight in cities.
Better learn how the clans work. Leaving out basic facts is why there is so much garbage being said. The clan warriors would rather have the PGCs sit around guarding things, then having to do it themselves. They should be out prowling for a fight where they can find it.
Another reason to have PGCs, is the older units. Do you want them used, or just sitting in storage, waiting for another clan to take them and use them?
No. You can't section out your lands easily. Well that is if you lose any challenges. It is very possible to own a building or mine in the middle of another clans territory. The Falcons Eiry I believe it's called on Huntress is one such example. Oh yeah. They have someone guarding that too. Imagine that. And they include freeborns. The Falcons. Wow.
Now what foolishness is the 'should have figured out the rate of losses by now'. When are you going into battle next? How many will you lose? Will odd things like a gauss shot to the head on a few mechs add into this formula? How many bondsmen are worthy to try to become warriors again? How many in the sibko will graduate? 0? 5? 10?
Please show us the formula to account for all this. And this isn't even counting in challenges against you. Those come at odd times and tends to cause more casualties then you attacking them.
You do realize Theodore did such a batchall. He won the world, but not the rest of the system. So there was no safe access to the world.
Edited by ghostrider (02/18/20 03:10 AM)
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Requiem
02/18/20 07:45 AM
1.158.235.15
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Rules for a Trial of grievance
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Grievance
Provisional Garrison Cluster
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Provisional_Garrison_Cluster
“They are typically considered one tier below second line forces and are typically used to hold rear areas, perform cleanup tasks too dishonorable for front line or second line Clusters, or hold minor objectives.”
Dirty Dozen – with the oldest most decrepit vehicles and ‘Mechs doing the jobs no one else would consider doing.
Thus the idea they would be allowed to participate in a Trial of Possession is ludicrous.
If this is the reason you have maintain PGCs then the need to keep vast amounts of them is again ludicrous.
How many rear areas / minor objectives can one Clan have within Clan Space? In all reality not that many.
As per Clan Jade Falcon Wiki -
In 3062 Clan Jade Falcon held 9 Clan Home Worlds, each of a different value of ownership.
As per Clan Jade Falcon Touman
6th PGC – 1 Binary (10)
22nd PGC – 3 trinaries (45), 3 stars Elementals (15), 1 Binary Aerospace (10)
24th PGC – Two Battlemech stars (10), One aerospace Star (10), a mix of elemental and conventional infantry stars
9th PGC – 5 Binaries (50)
10th PGC – Unknown
5th PGC – 5 Binaries (50)
Total complement 165 Mechs + Unknown 10th – assume 50 = 225 Mechs, 15 Elementals, 20 aerospace and a mix of elemental and conventional infantry stars – Two regiments of IS Mechs
This clearly demonstrates that they are unable to guard any significant amount of worlds within the IS.
The idea of racial “gene” supremecy alone would discount the theory there many PGCs exist at any one time.
The idea that any clan would have vast amounts of these forces to “garrison” a large number of IS worlds can-not be considered plausible.
Thus the whole idea of each Clan possessing many PGCs within the IS to guard vast amounts of worlds cannot be considered to be realistic
Q.E.D.
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No. You can't section out your lands easily.
And yet it is done since the earliest days of human history. It is incredibly simple – even the IS know how to assign units to certain geographical areas / worlds.
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Now what foolishness is the 'should have figured out the rate of losses by now’.
Example from the Rand Corporation
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1100/RR1140/RAND_RR1140.pdf
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You do realize Theodore did such a batchall. He won the world, but not the rest of the system. So there was no safe access to the world.
What we learnt …. Semantics, the Clan love to play word games. You do realize that two can play at that game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/18/20 11:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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The IS fighting over part of a planet. Doesn't this go completely counter to the demand that the IS would not leave any of their civilians in the hands of the clans? They would do a full annihilation of the clans in the IS?
And how to you supply it? The clans would have to give you safe access or you do as the Combine does. Have to try and sneak in and out forces. Given the clans that came in with the initial invasion clan Wolf might be the ones to do so, and even that isn't likely.
Yeah. I mean putting guards up in places that people want to attack, like a factory producing mechs, is easy to understand. Mines, command centers, star ports. You wouldn't station guards at a volcano unless there was research going on. So this sounds a little obvious.
Interesting as it was suggested that you only need to guard one place, then move units to them, when they are attacked.
Now here is another step in guard duty. The entire unit(cluster) is not always in the same place. They break them up into smaller units, sometimes even a single mech or point of elementals. Can you imagine that? Having a single mech guard someplace. That is just insane, as you must have every trooper in one place...
And what do you know. The PGC's have warriors that their performance isn't up to par, yet not bad enough to force retirement. Hmmm....
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Requiem
02/18/20 05:19 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
The IS fighting over part of a planet. Doesn't this go completely counter to the demand that the IS would not leave any of their civilians in the hands of the clans?
What would happen in a future invasion if your forces already have multiple beachheads upon multiple worlds?
Utilizing the Clan own flaws against them won on Wolcott.
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They would do a full annihilation of the clans in the IS?
Three Initial Possibilities:-
• Eject from the Inner-sphere;
• Absorption into the new Star League or Trial of Absorption becoming part of a House Unit; or
• Full annihilation of the IS Clan Force.
Quote:
And how to you supply it?
We learn – word play semantics when it comes to the “prize” is not only the purview of the Clans. No sneaking they are now bound by their oath to allow access.
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The entire unit(cluster) is not always in the same place.
As stated –
A set piece of Geographical Area is assigned to each Galaxy
Front line Units accept all of the Trial of ….. Requests for all Primary Objectives that area and undergo bidding for that particular Trial. <Within Clan Space or the IS – Front Line Units will Always advance the objectives of their clan in battle – by taking and defending what their clan wants and what it owns>
Within Clan Space - As per the rules both sides then ensure the battle is within the pre-arranged “Circle” to battle for the prize.
Within the IS – These battles are now Planet wide and are no longer just one battle – the front line forces must now contend themselves with the IS way of fighting.
Second Tier units are there are their true garrison forces, who are used to hold ground taken by front-line units or to attack / defend secondary objectives.
<Within Clan space – why do you even need a dedicated Garrison force, as all trials are strictly regulated, except against the Bandit Caste – and a force to attack / defend secondary targets means that minor Trials for minor goals are assigned to these units by their commanders – Win Trials for their Merchant Caste?>
< Within the IS – Garrison forces, who are used to hold ground taken by front-line units or to attack / defend secondary objectives.>
PGCs are there just to clean up after front and second line units and hold even less important targets.
<Within Clan Space – After battlefield clean up duties, as well as all the dirty jobs no one else will do – their Garrison posts would be akin to being “sent to Siberia” far away and in the most desolate of locations that really hold no strategic importance whatsoever. But close enough that they can Clean up a circle of equals after the battle has finished.>
<Within in the IS – First it takes six months for these units to travel to the IS so even if they left Clan space during the second wave (May) they should not have arrived until November, 3050 and not during the fourth wave (ending in October) …. The arrival of any PGC can only occur late October onwards – Plus given their extremely small size they really should not be all that much of any real assistance in garrisoning IS worlds. They would therefore only be assigned to worlds of little to no importance to the overall Clan Objectives – due to a lack of available resources or strategic value..>
Note. After re-reading the Clan uses for their three tear military system – how they are armed and how they are treated – it is Clear that the Free-born PGS are ripe for a psy-ops action during the Clan Invasion. Operational Objectives – turn these units against the Clans that treat them so poorly and get them to work for an IS great House as a front line Unit (when they defect provide them with advanced IS ‘Mechs etc) …. Is it so hard to believe that they wouldn’t defect considering how they are treated on the Clan Home Worlds?
As for Galaxy sub-units not being in the same place - this is to be expected within Clan Space …. As long as one Galaxie’s Cluster remains within its garrisoned geographical (Within the Clan’s overall Holdings) area to respond to other Clan’s Front Line Units request for a Trial, the other Clusters within the Galaxy can be sent out to initiate Trials upon other Clan Holdings as much as they want. Thus we have the true sanitized Clan version of War in all its limitations!
And as stated – the rules state you do not have to garrison everything within a single area – you only need one Front Line garrison within one geographical area that will accept all Trial requests from other Clans.
Quote:
The PGC's have warriors that their performance isn't up to par, yet not bad enough to force retirement.
When you consider their primary duty on the Clan Home Worlds is to clean up the circle of equals after it has been used this not all that surprising. And within the IS Garrisoned on the back of beyond and fighting whole against whole worlds populations this is not really that surprising – they are given the jobs no one else will do as they are never that important.
Plus their overall size is not that great – so scattering them over many worlds is practically useless. – as shown above!
Plus I find it interesting the questions asked were never answered ….
How would a Clan warrior react going from a highly sanitized battle environment (that has many rules to minimize the losses of MechWarriors and eliminating collateral damage and danger to non-combatants to that of the IS way of fighting which is basked upon killing as many of enemies as possible and inflicting as much damage as you can.
You would think their would be a massive period of adjustment for their Front-Line and Second Tier Warriors.
And then the idea they are engaged in Partisan wars would also be highly frustrating – assigning PGCs to these battles would be the Clans idea of a solution – and yet given their limited numbers their overall effectiveness would be limited.
Something is missing in the Canon story here!
Alt Suggestion – with the introduction of PGS into the Invasion Corridor (Commencing late October – early November 3050)
As shown above the Clan’s PGC are extremely limited in size.
The number of worlds that are engaged in Partisan activities – all of them.
Policy to stop Partisan Activity – varies from Clan to Clan …. (examples could be ….. Germany in Russia, Italy and Paris Vs. Vietnam Resistance?)
• Set an example by demonstrating what will happen when partisan activity occurs;
• Enter into negotiation with the IS population;
• Send in the investigative arm – backed up with military support etc.
• Put a Fire base out in the open as a tethered goat and see who bites …… etc.
Consider the size of your PGC units within the Is as well as each clans PGCs that are available
• Trinary is too small for the majority ….
• A Cluster (three Trinaries) may even not be enough considering the hardware some resistance units may have access too (Former Reserve units with access to armor / VTOL / Advanced Infantry and Explosives – highly trained and organized to the complete opposite small partisan groups with no real training)
Consider the IS response …. With Black Box tech each world can coordinate ….
• Access to outside assistance and supply drops
• Insertion of commando teams – training to small garrison elimination;
• Insertion of Mech units;
• Insertion of psy-ops – desertions / kidnapping / exacerbating conflict between the people and the Clans etc.;
• Psy-Ops – getting an entire PGC to defect!;
• Capturing Clan Tech;
• Information reconnaissance;
There are many behind the lines scenarios that are available for IS Front Line Units / Mercenary Units that can be applied here when it comes to reinforcing captured worlds partisans.
Thus new units for the Games –
• Partisan force fighting the Clan occupiers;
• Small PGCs units fighting Partisans;
• Small IS units sent into the Clans rear with multiple objectives;
• Small PGCs who have defected from the Clans and Now work for the IS – Mercenary or Front Line;
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/18/20 06:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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Depending on the stated prized of a batchall, there is no guarantee of access. Theodore bid for Wolcott, but not the space around it. Maybe checking out the Black Thorns might give you that information. The ISF liason was pissed that Rose would not change course with his drop ship to intercept some fighters after a couple of outbound dropships. Much like the Falcon deal with the invasion of Coventry. They did not want to exchange worlds because it was an inconvenience to the IS to supply those worlds.
You are starting to get a picture of garrison duty, now spread them out even further, such as different planets and moons in the system to other systems. Garrisons are there to guard people. property, research, and other things. Not just from the enemy combat units, but saboteurs and such. In the home worlds, this isn't such a problem. But that doesn't mean they don't do it.
The ragged positioning of assets comes from not only having to put things where the resources are, like an iron mine having to be on an iron deposit, to guarding things taken in combat, or traded with other clans. The Snow Ravens getting the Ghost Bears lands for building their population moving fleets comes to mind.
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Requiem
02/19/20 01:34 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
Depending on the stated prized of a batchall, there is no guarantee of access.
And if it is included in the “prize”?
Coventry – would have become an nightmare for ‘Clan’ Logistics – it was only to sharpen the claws of their fledglings …
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Clan – Garrison Forces
Good descriptors of the Clans is that of being anal-retentive … and segregating everything into groups …
Garrison Posts
Primary Units for primary Worlds;
Secondary Units for secondary worlds;
PGCs those worlds that really do not matter as well as the job no one else wants of running to ground any partisan force that can be identified – and yet the clans have no real idea what they are doing when it comes to fighting partisans except for being the sledge hammer on the egg … They completely lack an investigative police force who can work out who is in the resistance as well as most of the nastier tricks they will use …
Thus in the beginning you can expect the PGCs running around many a field, and not catching anything …except for becoming target practice when they fall into an ambush.
When fighting partisans the military alone are completely ill-suited – detectives and infiltration spies are required.
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In the home worlds, this isn't such a problem. But that doesn't mean they don't do it.
Incredibly rare! – to the point of being nonexistent.
Alt Suggestion
I am going to establish for my game a new unit a Jade Falcon PGC.
We meet our PGC fresh from the Clan Home worlds where they were required to fix another circle of equals after a Mech Battle (Trial of Possession), which is causing anxiety within our trinary. They have now been assigned to a plannet to hunt down the local partisan group – after a period of time they are still not having much luck.
However, the F-C psy-ops spy has been able to get close to the commander of the unit – and supply him with “books”.
However it wasn’t all the specialized psy-ops information that was able to change his mind. It was an accidental inclusion into the information provided for him – someone accidentally put in a copy of the ancient copy of the film “Spartacus” – which provided the jolt.
Shortly thereafter his forces raided the Second Tier Unit close by – steeling their Mechs and people – they then stole a Dropship and were able to “convince” the passing Logistics Jumpship to take them into the IS.
Since then this former Falcon PGC has been employed by the F-C as a mercenary unit – designated as Gladiator.
And commanded by the newly named “Spartacus”. Their remit is to provide assistance to defecting Clan personnel.
<Note: Where the Clans Have Bloodnames this unit has Freedom Names ie Spartacus, Che Guevara, Castro, Guy Fawkes … etc.>.
<…. Initially creating an underground railroad for the fleeing Free-born ….>
< …. However, and after time …. another PGC joins …. and even more time how about half or even all the Falcon PGCs , all 225 Mechs and 20 aerospace fighters! - and before they leave they each raid second tier units … plus they purchase front line IS mechs (with the supplies they were able to “acquire” ….. and this time they are going to liberate Falcon unit’s support Caste Freeborn personnel …. And just like Rome they will now have to send a Front Line Unit after them less this get out of hand.>
Thoughts on my Spartacus Campaign within the IS invasion corridor?
Should my little revolution spread into any of the Other Clan’s PGC as well as Free-born Desert en-mass from a Tyrannical society to that of the IS and freedom ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/19/20 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Issues that needs to be addressed.
What type of dropship do the steal? This is important because it is unlikely they will be able to buy any more in the IS. They may have to rent some for moving the unit beyond the first dropship.
I would suggest something to cover why the rest of the unit follows the commander when he breaks. Would think they seen the movie as well, but different reactions for different people. Does the commander expose himself trying to convince the others to follow him? Or do they just follow?
Might want the 'bloodnames' to be nicknames instead. The insult to the trueborns might cause them to target the unit to remove that stain. Additional thought came up with typing this. It may be a good way to get those sent after the unit to switch sides. The Falcons would send the bottom of the heap units to do so at first (with or with blood names in unit).
I would assume the unit starts inside the Falcon occupation zone, or the merchant caste has decided to resist the Falcon Khans. If not, then the question is, would there be room on an outbound jumpship from the clan home worlds?
It would also raise the question of alerting any along the supply route to the IS as well.
Another suggestion is that the other PGC personnel that 'join' might keep in position in the Touman, so they can help move those seeking refuge in the IS. The inside guys so to speak.
The biggest issue initially would be moving the people. Jumpships and dropships. Stealing them might work for the first strike or two, but after that, it becomes unlikely to be successful.
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Requiem
02/19/20 04:04 PM
1.158.235.15
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What type of dropship do the steal?
Overlord-C (Renamed – Dawn Breaker)
1,000 tons (?) of various clan weapons, consumables etc + 20 Mechs (15X 11C and Second Line BattleMechs and 5 Omni + 5 Elemental Suits)
Odyssey Class Jump-ship (Renamed – Vesuvius)
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why the rest of the unit follows the commander when he breaks.
The entire unit hates (with passion) how they are used by the Falcons – Clearer of battlefields, the grunt work no one else will do – treated very poorly;
The commander is a natural born leader, highly charismatic;
The IS way of life as a mercenary allows the unit to finally be “true” warriors; and
Revenge upon their former “Masters” – Clan Jade Falcon.
They all follow him … doesn’t take much to convince them after all the years they have been treated …
And yes they all watch “Spartacus” …..
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Might want the 'bloodnames' to be nicknames instead.
Free-Names – and no they will not be nicknames – they will be the equivalent of Clan Blood-names – the first 15 who stood with Spartacus during their “Servile War.” <Nt. New names will be added as the unit increases in strength>
Spartacus, Crixis, Castus, Lucretia, Naevia
Che Guevara, Castro, Zapata, Wake, Garrud
(Guy) Fawkes, Rani, (Qiu) Jin, (Joan) Arc, Neri
And yes they will be targeted from word one ….
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I would assume the unit starts inside the Falcon occupation zone
Yes, from there they take possession of an old merchant Caste dropship delivering logistical supplies.
I agree the first unit they could send after them would be another PGC who switches sides.
They also escape Clan Space with their psy-ops “liaison”
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Alerting the supply route
First, the jump-ship would be listed as Overdue;
As time moved on the Clans would get more concerned;
However once the Jade Falcon Khan leans of the PGC perfidy they will begin an active hunt for the missing ship and the deserters.
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Within the IS
With the assistance of their psy-ops liaison they are debriefed;
Sell a percentage of their Cargo – start up cash;
Provided with a Contract and assigned to a commando unit who operates behind the lines – they are then sent to Camelot Command within the Dark Nebula (Base of Operations)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/19/20 08:03 PM
1.158.235.15
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What the ……..?
Approx. September 3050 - Camelot Command Rediscovered – First Somerset Strikers;
3051 - Camelot Command Rediscovered (for a second time) – Snord’s Irregulars: during Operation Merlin;
Some time thereafter - Command was subsequently refurbished by the Federated Commonwealth and used as a base for forward operations against the Clans.
And then was abandoned due to logistical problems ….
I hereby cry Foul ….
I know the militaries decisions can sometimes be…..”strange”, but ….. Why would you wait over a year once you have been notified as to the existence of Camelot Command before you decide to garrison it …. Camelot command is “ a Star League naval base”!
This is completely beyond the pail ….
Also now that is behind enemy lines this bases importance increases exponentially ……
Put in a couple of flights of aerospace fighters for security plus a complement of nuclear missiles in case the Clan Navy show up as well as complement of Naval Marines and Mechs – then rig the entire place to blow using some of the nuclear warheads – just in case the Clans do decide to conquer the facility in the future and all done ….<so the idea that the F-C just abandons it because the logistics is too difficult can-not be considered realistic.>
All required Logistics will be via non-standard jump points <as per War of 3039>
Sorry but I cannot in any good conscious consider the canon story to be acceptable ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/20/20 02:46 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with Camelot Command is why most don't put any weight with the Strikers cartoon. TPTB retconned it in after the cartoon and did like they normally do. Not actually research the history for facts.
I would try to say that the canonverse is lacking in resources, but we've been down that road.
But with that information, I guess the Falcons had a warship base outside of the clans home worlds.
Snord's Irregulars adventure pack has a few scenarios dealing with Camelot Command and their battle to keep it from the Falcons.
I agree that this one is a major screw up. But without warships on the IS part, I don't think they could do much with the base. Canon here, not alt. The FC would have lost it to just having the Falcon warships around it, taking out any dropships that isn't Falcon. I agree if they couldn't hold it, destroying it would have been done.
Now for more stupidity upon this. Why didn't the Falcons use the base? There isn't much reference to it after abandoning it. Unless it was a big part of the Falcons ripping up the LA. Just a resupply base would go far in that case. You don't even need warship repairs, though I don't remember if they could build one at the docks. I don't remember seeing it one way or the other.
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Requiem
02/20/20 06:42 AM
1.158.235.15
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The issue with Camelot Command is why most don't put any weight with the Strikers cartoon. TPTB retconned it in after the cartoon and did like they normally do. Not actually research the history for facts.
So, pick and choose what is canon and what is not?
They were not there at Camelot Command ….? And yet not? ….
And yet Adam Steiner went on to become Archon?
Really, ….. logic is ……..?
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I don't think they could do much with the base.
Really?, I came up with …
A forward base (Hub) for my Fenrir Forces, my S.O.E. Forces and more recently my PGC force that went rogue and is now a mercenary unit….. In addition to that I turned it into a “Babylon 5” Variant – with pirate refugees fleeing the Clan advance ….
What this is - Wolcott in the F-C space.
It’s location alone make it strategically valuable! …. and in the future I will return it to its correct function as a naval base ….
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Snord's Irregulars adventure pack has a few scenarios dealing with Camelot Command and their battle to keep it from the Falcons.
And yet in all reality it should have been operational if 1st Somerset Strikers is to believed.
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Why didn't the Falcons use the base?
They forgot that it was even there? – They did not want it for their fleet even though it was a SLDF relic (to which the Clans applied an almost religious zealotry to during the invasion)? – The IS forces left and not telling anyone – the Falcons though the tenants were still there and when they next came for a tenants inspection they found another Clan squatting, and claiming squatters rights to the SLDF facility?
Again another monumental s______ up.
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Purpose – Camelot Command
First let us consider its location – it is hidden within a Dark Nebula
Then let us consider what is guarding it – multiple drones with naval grade weapons.
What this says to me is this facility is a highly important – and due to its importance it must be kept secret and secured from enemy forces ….. so if you are going to build a station like this, with this level of security protecting it, wouldn’t you ensure at the bare minimum a facility like this can act as …
Primary – CIC for the SLDF Fleet within that area of space;
Secondary - Resupply of SLDF Naval Ships; and
Tertiary – Dry Dock – repair and refit.
Plus there must be something about this facility that makes it unique (due to its location and security) – Shadow SLDF Naval facility that used to spy on the realm closest to it – As the closest realm would have been the former RWR.
My bet is this facility was originally SLDF Navy CIC for their Bug-Eye Jump-ship Fleet for this area (TRO 2750 Page 124) – Before they ‘nerfed’ them that is …..
Otherwise why build a facility like this, in a location like this, and with the added security it has?
It would have been interesting if Adam Steiner found a Bug-Eye (or two) …. And they were then used during the Clan Invasion and onwards …..
Also, if this was an intelligence facility what information could the computer banks hold as to the RWR? Especially during the Amaris Coup … and the Lyran’s subsequent invasion prior to the Exodus …. What information / secrets could this facility hold as to the hidden Amaris / RWR facilities (The Mech plant hidden in the deep periphery and at the bottom of the sea…. (If I remember correctly) as well as others).
This facility should have been a treasure trove of information as well as an invaluable base for the future of the Lyran people.
This facility could have been so much more if it had just been given the chance!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/20/20 01:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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The cartoon is like the video games. They were put out for visual entertainment, yet got popular enough to include it into canon. A few of the game mechanics don't work in the video games. It also shows a lot of issues with the turn based game as well.
Coming up with things you can do to the base is not the same as what you actually can do. The alt has little in common with canon, with the exception of being loosely based on it. The FC did not have warships to guard it, nor did they really have the technical support needed to really bring it up. The position in space was another huge issue, as you only get lucky so many times with the sneak runs.
Not sure where it said there were drones that could guard the base, but the naval weapons would have made it a bit difficult to assault. But then the clans had the warships and could make runs against it, knocking out those very weapons. At this point, the IS didn't seem able to make most of them, so any lose would mean not being able to repair them.
Not sure what tenants you are talking about with the Falcons not using the base, unless Adam made a challenge for it. If there was, the question of a time limit comes to mind. If TPTB really want to make the cartoon canon, then the FC would have been trying to use it, and when Snord finds it, the Dark Wing forces would be in violation of such an agreement.
But ignoring the cartoon, as most do, the Dark Wing unit's jumpships jumped out after the Snort battles to report it to Falcon high command. There is absolutely no way the Falcons would not have sent another force to investigate it or keep the IS from making it operational. They would have challenged for it as soon as they could. With it not being worked on, that would mean they would have it in the near future.
But again. Someone didn't do their research when they were working on the Falcon/FC war.
I would think MAYBE, not guaranteed, that this might have fallen during ownership change, or possible lawsuit issues.
Where the use of it isn't disputed, it is not so easy to just say you can defend it. As with Wolcott, supplying it is a major issue. This is especially true when you talk about how far you have to go thru enemy territory to get to it.
But with this, the location may be unique only in the fact that the RWR didn't know about it, so being a CIC and logistics base could well be all the significance to it is. Though that is canon. Others could expand on it. The Intel station does make a lot of sense. Hide production of the Bugeyes and others.
Now here is another flaw with the information on the base. We are talking Snord. They would have done all within their power to get the information stored there. So that should not have been lost.
This is just another huge discovery that they did not really want in the game, so just killed it off with ignoring it, with garbage logic. It would have provided the Falcons with a huge advantage.
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Requiem
02/20/20 07:29 PM
1.158.235.15
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The FC did not have warships to guard it, nor did they really have the technical support needed to really bring it up.
Wouldn’t you assume that any space station built for Naval Warship’s “Resupply and Dry docking (Repair and Refit)” purposes would have security in the form of aerospace fighters at the bare minimum?
Also wouldn’t you also expect that a station of this importance would have its own naval grade weapons, built into the base, to defend itself against warships?
Drones –
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Camelot_Command
“ it also maintained a screen of several dozen (at least) autonomous Mark 39 Attack Drones to destroy or drive away intruders.”
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They would have challenged for it as soon as they could
Agree – for the first time a Trial of Possession utilizing only aerospace fighters?, as there is no way you would allow the Falcons to get that close to land ground troops.
As for security - What about external Drop-ship Fighter Carriers running picket?
However, considering the Clans zealot nature towards SL artifacts – what would happen If the Falcons were told of the existence of a dead man switch - “in the event the base looks like it is going to fall they (the F-C forces) would detonate the core of the Facility – destroying it outright” – would they then back off to preserve the facility?
Wolcott – maybe what was written was misinterpreted – what I was attempting to say was that in DC space they have Wolcott, where Mercs can obtain a second contract to undertake work within Jaguar / Bear Territory.
Thus in the Lyran Space Camelot can function as a similar base – allowing Lyran (F-C) Mercs the chance of conducting contracts within Falcon / Wolf Territory.
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It would have provided the Falcons with a huge advantage.
It is a huge advantage to whom-ever holds it!
This entire facility should have been the centerpiece of an entire book on its own – not just the Snords book of finding it (again) – but a book similar to the Black Thorns.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/20/20 07:45 PM
1.158.235.15
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Due to the nature of the Invasion Corridor, initially four Clans invading side by side, don’t you think that the middle two Clans (Bears and Wolves) became insulated against any IS counterattack?
That is for any real IS attack upon the Bears and Wolves you had to go through the Jaguars and Falcons to get at them.
Question – would it have been better if there were two invasion corridors (ie. Corridor one – Falcons / Wolves and Corridor two Bears / Jaguars) and there was a corridor of worlds (The FRR) between the two - why the FRR was viewed as being weak (providing the middle two clans with an advantage) – and as such the middle two Clans would have an easier time during the invasion, whereas the outer two must fight the Great Houses?
OR/-
Should the IS have won more worlds than that of the two TPTB allowed them to win – thus providing corridors within the Clan Invasion that would allow the IS forces to attack into the heartland of the middle two clans.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/20/20 11:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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No fighters would be there as they abandoned the facility. They would have taken them with the exodus.
And tech support probably did not know how to FIX the naval weapons. I would think it did have some still guarding the place.
So it having drones would mean the ones guarding the Sol system should not have been unexpected when the mercs tried to take WOB out. Gee. Sounds familiar.
Fighter carriers would work in the alt, but if, in canon, the FC had them to being with, the Clans would not have gotten such a foot hold. They would have been used to hit dropships and even the warships.
I don't think the Falcons would have backed off for a few reasons. First, the facility can not remain in the barbarian hands of the FC. Second, just threatening to destroy it would cause them to start ignoring their own traditions. Third, if they actually did have it and used it, that may well released the Crusaders into a larger offensive.
May being the key word.
And the problem with a dead man's switch is what happens if the person dies of starvation? You know the Falcons would do what ever they could to remove the threat, as even with the zeal for SL facilities, leaving this base in IS hands would give them a base to strike at them from. So the ideas of the Falcons would say they would not back off.
Initially, the Bears and Wolves would face counter attacks. One the truce went into effect, having to move thru the Jaguars/Falcons was an issue. Much like raiding either clan from the IS.
Do you honestly think the Wolves and Falcons could share a corridor? Or the Jaguars and Bears? The Wolves were assigned the FRR because the crusaders wanted to insult the Wolves as the FRR was weak. Not sure about the Bears. They might have been the loser of the winners prize with the FRR. The Falcons and Jaguars would have the glory of hitting the better states.
As they did not really say anything, I do suspect that the IS won a few worlds, only to lose them again. Much like most wars. Hold with what they had, and hit their second and third lines with the elite units, then garrison them with the IS own weaker units. But then that would be more realistic then the clans just running over everyone and only two wins for the IS. Especially after the Dragoon meeting. So I do agree they SHOULD have.
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Requiem
02/21/20 01:48 AM
1.158.235.15
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So it having drones would mean the ones guarding the Sol system should not have been unexpected when the mercs tried to take WOB out. Gee. Sounds familiar.
What it also means is that the F-C (Lyrans) should have also had drone technology when reverse engineering the technology as well as the software upon the facility.
So where is this technology? …..
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the facility cannot remain in the barbarian hands
Even if those barbarians threaten to destroy it?
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just threatening to destroy it would cause them to start ignoring their own traditions
Ignoring their own traditions is a very big step over the line …. If it could be hushed up afterward, and as long as they won then I guess this could be a possibility … However, if they lose to the IS and are unable to gain Camelot, someone will need to take the fall for the loss.
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And the problem with a dead man's switch is what happens if the person dies of starvation?
Coming in from a non standard jump points this might be difficult to believe.
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The Falcons would do what-ever they could to remove the threat …. they would not back off
Agree, but this facility is worth the issues in keeping it …… over time this facility will become the most fortified Lyran facility within the IS …. Not only would there be drones but nuclear mine fields and a massive amount of aerospace fighters and a squadron of new Lyran Warships.
Thus setting the scene for what will one day become the largest Naval battles of that era ….
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Do you honestly think the Wolves and Falcons could share a corridor? Or the Jaguars and Bears?
Unknown, what I want is a way for the IS to strike at the Wolves and the Bears heartland – as is, initially you would have to go through the other Clans / down through the Periphery or through their front line forces – all difficult.
Thus by having another means of ingress / egress into that area we can have more battles against their interior forces when they least expect it.
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But then that would be more realistic then the clans just running over everyone and only two wins for the IS.
This is what I find very difficult to believe …. against just ‘Mechs they had a clear advantage, however with regards to multiple RCTs which include vehicles, artillery, infantry (SRM – Inferno), conventional fighters and bombers etc. they lose their advantage.
Especially after the Dragoon meeting, Wolcott and Twycross – to believe the current strategies would remain the same after these three events is highly unbelievable.
This is why I believe the “Year of Peace” is in error – this should have been the “Year of Preparedness” (as for the return of the Clans’ Invasion) – new training / strategies new equipment. – Preparation of the Grounds (Battlefields) to come in the future similar to that of Gothic line etc. in WW2 Italy.
This is where the Clans should have become stuck in the ground – their fatal flaw in replacement personnel (Sibko System) – kill enough of them and their ability to advance in numbers becomes very difficult (and unbelievable).
My belief is that post the “Year of ……..” there should have evolved many very large scale battles involving armies rather than individual units.
Having two corridors in my opinion would make for a more interesting game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/21/20 12:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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The drone tech went where clan tech did when the IS took Huntress. In the black hole that prevents upgrades in the IS tech.
Who knows. Maybe they blew the fabric of reality to make that black hole.
If I remember right, the Falcons were not initially going to issue the batchall as they didn't think the IS was worthy enough to even try. Granted, it wasn't like they didn't break with tradition on several occasions. The warship incidence to gain SL artifacts should be enough to tilt this to the Falcons.
The issue isn't so much pirate points, but just holding the blockade just outside of weapons range. It would be much easier to blockade the station then a full planet. Not saying blockade running isn't possible, but it could be very costly. Again, this is canon thoughts. The alt could very well have nullified this with the introduction of warships and fighter brigades. Keep the Falcons from even getting this far.
Again. During the initial invasion, the Wolves/Bears were accessible to being hit. The only real issue there might have been is if the FRR would allow the FC/DC to hit worlds with the clans. Also, the two clans did hit worlds in the FC/DC. The issue does relate to the going thru other clans. The worlds they would use to do so, were very threatened by the Falcon/Jaguars.
A single RCT use as they were during their conception thru the 3039 war would have stopped more then a few quick victories for the clans, as well as allowing better counter assaults. The issue is how the dropships work when loading and unloading. Shutting down the main engines is a problem. No quick lift off. But it does seem like they were ignored or just left out of things. A full hull covered LRM launchers or even SRM launchers could have done some major hurt to the clans. And with SRMs being used, the Demolisher and others would be usable to. The VTOLs were show to be effective for the game rules. The main thing that counters them is fighters. And we know the clans seem to shun them, even though they are still trueborn for the most part. Only the Snow Ravens seem to have 'enough' of them. But then challenges normally don't use fighters like mechs.
Now here's something. You can make a scattered mine field with LRM, but wouldn't you make up a missile option for SRMs? Put them on hover craft to get in close and set them up? The idea. SRMs do more damage, so you might do double damage when their field is set up.
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Requiem
02/21/20 05:28 PM
1.158.235.15
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The drone tech went where clan tech did when the IS took Huntress.
Agree – What could have been? Sharing Tech with re to new Star League Amendments – all IS Warships have drones? Or/-
WOB defending Terra with drones, Lyrans sending in their drones to clear a path …
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The warship incidence to gain SL artifacts should be enough to tilt this to the Falcons.
Agree – this station should have become the focus of many Falcon military assaults – the Falcons should have been obsessed with acquiring this station … even to the point of distraction from what is occurring on the front lines ….
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The issue isn't so much pirate points, but just holding the blockade just outside of weapons range.
My Opinion – the nebula itself will act like an ECM to the warship sensors – the drones however use a special one off sensor (now lost to time, even to the Clans) – thus any battle within the nebula ip problematic for those attacking – but for those defending they can receive information from the stations CIC, thus providing them with an advantage, especially if you have mined the entry way with mines (nuclear or HE?) that can be moved into the oncoming path of attacking Warships.
Thus the Falcons have a problem regarding attacking this station from the get go.
Thus over time multiple defensive rings will be introduced …. And all controlled by the Station’s CIC ….
First Ring - The Nebula itself ;
Second Ring – Multiple rings of mines and drones that can be moved in front of any oncoming vessel without them knowing;
Third Ring – Multiple Aerospace Fighter flights (armed with nuclear missiles);
Fourth Ring – IS Warships;
Fifth Ring – Close Support Aerospace Fighter flights (armed with HE anti Drop-Ship Missiles) together with the stations own Naval weapons;
Sixth Ring – Station’s Security Marines and BattleMech complement; and lastly ….
Seventh Ring – The Dead Man Switch, (Nickname: the 7th Ring of Hell)
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During the initial invasion, the Wolves/Bears were accessible to being hit.
And by the 4th Wave this is becoming problematic ….
As for the FRR – why would they object as the New SLDF is fighting to get their worlds back from the Clans?
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A single RCT use as they were during their conception thru the 3039 war would have stopped more then a few quick victories for the clans, as well as allowing better counter assaults.
Agree – to me it appears as on the whole the invasion was just about Mech to Mech fights ….. considering the massive amount of vehicles and conventional fighters / bombers available to the IS the Clan must either increase their bid per world or face annihilation through their utilization.
Also considering the number of conventional fighters / bombers that are available to IS forces these alone should have been problematic to any Clan force.
(As like Huntress Weapon Tech and many other pieces of Tech – Conventional fighters just disappeared from the game, and yet when you read about them they should have been incredibly proliferate throughout the IS.)
This is why I am not impressed with the Canon writing - too many problems / issues when you start looking into what should be there – the flexibility of IS forces to use different units should be able to hammer Clan Attack forces – more Clan dead / captured means they cannot be replaced (issues with the Sibko system) – which will cause problems as the invasion continues – their unit numbers should begin to shrink as the Loss Depletion report starts showing an alarming trend in the Clan’s ability to continue. And yet the Canon story has them always at 100% combat strength (no dead / Captured at all!) whereas the IS suffer a horrendous amount of dead / loss of equipment, it just does not make any sense whatsoever!
The problem with mine fields is the clans will use their lasers to cut a path through – however whist they are doing this they are vulnerable – at this stage I would send in artillery / Bombers at 80.000 feet with mass gravity bombs – like to see how many survive?
Then follow this up with mass high velocity vehicle waves and VTOL waves who’s aim is to get into their rear and attacking this vulnerability.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/21/20 08:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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That is why the drone tech had to disappear until WOB strike.
Had that tech been around in the FC, the strikes wouldn't have been able to be done on the FC.
And it is unlikely the FC would have shared this tech with anyone else. So they could guard all worlds, making it that much harder for the FC to be hit.
The idea of having them on warships would destroy the other nations. But more realistic, just dropships full of them, such as a vengeance, would be more then enough to wipe out most defenses around a world.
Which also makes me wonder about tech that didn't get used. What happened to the Titan fighter carrier?
Just had a thought. The drone tech could well remove mechs from the game. Using swarms, you could wipe out any unit, even just using normal ordinance. A swarm should be cheaper then even a locust. With this in mind, I can see why the tech went out the window, but this is a case of being stupid enough to let it into the game (WOB bs).
Question. Why would you follow up with VTOLs? Why not have them attack DURING clearing of the minefield?
Though I don't think lasers would work well. PPCs might, as they have the charge to them, electrifying the area. Still. Only advanced probe units should see them. Something not all omnis have.
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Requiem
02/21/20 10:42 PM
1.158.235.15
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That is why the drone tech had to disappear until WOB strike.
…. And has it been seen since? …. So why?
This is really getting annoying where technology is redacted from the game for reason ….
Black Boxes
Lyran Arena Shields (On a city wide scale);
Huntress;
Drones;
Virtually everything the WOB manufactured including cyborgs, transformable fighters to Mechs; etc etc
If it is introduced at one point in time it must be owned by the game and it must be reverse engineered and made acceptable within a period not exceeding 10 years within the game.
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And it is unlikely the FC would have shared this tech with anyone else.
Star League provisions regarding the sharing of technology – what could the DC and the FWL and ComStar have that the F-C would want for this tech? – being Lyrans, merchants, what would be the best deal they could get for this tech?
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The idea of having them on warships would destroy the other nations. But more realistic, just dropships full of them, such as a vengeance, would be more then enough to wipe out most defenses around a world.
Now this is a great idea……..
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What happened to the Titan fighter carrier?
The Clans have their retrofitted versions.
My Home Group went into the lost worlds of the TH and found two as well as the complete plans for them – when returned to Lyran space entered into a deal with Shipil Company (Skye) where they began manufacturing them once more ….
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The drone tech could well remove mechs from the game. Using swarms …..
The Drones from Camelot Command are space based only …..
If you want a very nasty and cheap on-world drone – Has anyone considered what a Boomerang spotter plane should be armed with – ie some kind of OS Missiles or gravity HE weapon ……
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Why would you follow up with VTOLs? Why not have them attack DURING clearing of the minefield?
During the minefield stage I want to just hit them hard with artillery and Bombers, thereafter I want the VTOLS to support the Vehicles – personal preference on attack patterns?
You could start early if you want to I don’t see why not ….
Probes …. Even the Clan’s are not that great due to range ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/21/20 11:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stop and think of the time line. The new SL wasn't built until after the clan invasion was stopped. So do you think the FC would have shared that tech? I honestly would think they would NOT have joined, or started it, as they had the winning piece of the wars with the drones.
And I have said it before. Games like having ultimate weapons used against the players, but in the end, the players seem to get it. So those ultimate weapons tend to be crap at that point. It is very stupidly frustrating.
Well another thing with VTOLs during artillery firing. They can be spotters as well. Even having a few equipped with TAG would help.
Now with drones, once you get the command coding right, you could make them of almost any size. Even a remote fighter, stuffed with explosives would work. Hehe, make it a REAL bomber.
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Requiem
02/22/20 01:54 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
Stop and think of the time line. The new SL wasn't built until after the clan invasion was stopped. So do you think the FC would have shared that tech?
Depends on what was offered for it if it is something of importance – yes I believe they would have shared it.
But that something would have to be something great importance.
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ultimate weapons
Two things wrong with every weapon,
The first, the engineer believing they have made the ultimate weapon,
The second, the operator believing the engineer ….
The problem is these weapons are made for a specific story and thereafter forgotten … but how many of us would have liked the continuance of certain tech in the game beyond this one story?
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Well another thing with VTOLs during artillery firing. They can be spotters as well. Even having a few equipped with TAG would help.
I agree, but it still comes down to personal preference in how you run your unit.
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Now with drones, once you get the command coding right, you could make them of almost any size. Even a remote fighter, stuffed with explosives would work. Hehe, make it a REAL bomber.
I agree this would be interesting - Question how fast can you make a fighter with just enough armor and no weapons whatsoever, except for a nuclear warhead – Kamikaze anyone?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/29/20 08:07 PM
1.158.235.15
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A question of numbers:-
First
Eleven planets within the Jade Falcon Invasion Corridor have a population approximately one hundred and two times that of Clan Jade Falcon upon the Clan Home worlds.
(Note – 37 worlds do not have a population figures so this could be far more in excess once these worlds populations are added in)
Sudeten 20 times Graus 25 times BlackJack 9 times Hot springs 13 Twycross 10
So how can any Clan Police / Govern worlds whose populations are far more than anything they have ever even considered. There is no way they have the forces to hold these worlds even if they introduce PGS. Sorry but the numbers do not lie the Clans cannot hold the worlds they conquer without the application of Gestapo tactics. They just do not have the numbers to hold highly populated worlds.
Is this a farcical history?
Second
A Leviathan Heavy Transport – 250,000 passengers
Population (Clan Space) 24,294,000 (3060)
To move the entire Clan Wholesale to the IS would take over 100 ships
They began converting mothballed Leviathan Class dreadnoughts into Arc Ships in 3055 and finished in 3060 – 20 per year – question how big are their shipyards and how big are their crews and how big are their manufacturing facilities to make all of this come together?
Plus it is interesting to note the Clan with smallest population (half of that of the next Clan) moved their population to the IS? Coincidence?
Is this a farcical history?
Cloud Cobra - Population (Clan Space): 58,374,000 (3060)
Coyote - Population (Clan Space): 73,360,000 (3060)
Goliath Scorpion - Population (Clan space): 67,238,000 (3060)
Hell’s Horses - Population (Clan Space): 95,317,000 (3060)
Nova Cats - Unknown
Snow Raven - Population (Clan Space): 94,199,000 (3060)
Steel Viper - Population (Clan Space): 57,275,000 (3060)
Wolf - Unknown
Ghost Bear - Population (Clan Space): 24,294,000 (3060)
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Jade Falcon - Population (Clan Space): 116,264,000 (3060)
Diamond Shark - Population (Clan Space): 67,859,000 (3060)
Blood Spirit - Unknown
Fire Mandrill - Population (Clan Space): 81,719,000 (3060)
Ice Hellion - Population (Clan Space): 101,309,000 (3060)
Smoke Jaguar - Unknown
Star Adder - Population (Clan Space): 108,695,000 (3060) – (Nt. Clan Burrock joined Star Adder in 3059 thus this figure is two clans added together at this stage)
How can any of these Clans expect to govern any large area within the IS given their incredibly small population – plus the incredible distance between the IS and Clan Space – even with Arc ships full of infantry you would have difficulty governing many worlds?
With Attrition Warfare the Clans do not have the population or the military numbers to survive for long when compared to the IS?
They may be able to win for the first couple of years – but thereafter all bets are off and they will be unable to sustain heavy casualties as that of the IS – the sibko system / reluctance to train free-born they will be unable to take the losses that the IS can.
Is the entire Clan Invasion farcical?
So rather than having a clan sibko system should that have had a “Clone” system where they could just produce fully grown warriors, and in numbers, as required for the war they are fighting at that time to sustain the casualties involved in an attrition war?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/01/20 05:15 AM
1.158.235.15
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Question
Given the information received by Wolf’s Dragoons regarding the Inner Sphere - Should each of the Clans have increased the manufacture numbers of their elementals into something that will work – each with a Leviathan Carrier of 250,000 elementals?
As what would happen if you gave everyone within a RCT infantry unit a SRM with Inferno rounds to fight the Mechs and the elementals (Toads)?
Plus there is the issue of weapons – how are you going to remove them from a single world who’s population is 20 times that of the your Clans population on the home world.
I cannot see how they can convince the entire police force to work for them is they have such limited numbers.
One decent revolt by many sharp shooters using hunting rifles and they could easily kill of the majority of warriors if they are outside at the same time as garrisons rarely went over a Cluster ….
Farcical Clan invasion garrisons?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/01/20 07:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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One thing that changes the numbers some is the fact the Leviathan would not have been the main jumpship to move troops into the IS. Potemkins if they have them.
The production of elemental armor isn't the problem here, but the actual troopers to fill them would be. Tradition vs necessity. Do you stick with just the best? Or drop the standards to get the numbers?
This is the issue with getting the elemental troopers.
But the PGC did have normal infantry, or so the clan invasion novels suggests. It was also suggested that they had them in the invasion forces as well.
The main way I could see the police working for an invader is when you have the hope that the nation you were part of will kick the invaders off the planet. Best not to have thousands or even millions killed from stupid mistake, like thinking your baseball bat will cave in the head of an armored trooper. Now once the government started their purges, and other issues, then they would be more likely to help the resistance, but only when they won't be caught. It helps the resistance to have someone on the inside of the enemy camp.
And if you think about it, what other job would they have or be able to get? Life goes on even after the shooting stops. Not a side the game focuses on.
They had revolts. The Falcons and Jaguars were having issues with a lot of them. Which is used on part of why the Wolves got ahead of the others.
It does appear they did not have a mathematician on staff, or just didn't really think it out. 1+1=3 in this case.
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Requiem
03/02/20 06:29 AM
101.185.82.147
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Potemkin
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Potemkin and https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Spina_ArcShip_(Spina_Khanate)
“30 of which survived the Amaris coup and departed with General Aleksandr Kerensky on the Exodus.” …..”many Potemkin-class ships are modified into mobile habitats known as ArcShips” (arcship = sea fox Poseidon – 50 Dropships)
So they only need to build nearly all 100 from scratch in Clan Space to move the entire Ghost Bear Population.
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Do you stick with just the best? Or drop the standards to get the numbers?
Without the numbers every garrison base within the IS is wide open for commando / Elite Killer Teams of every House’s Spy Organization / assault / partisan IEDs etc. – given a month on every world they (the Garrison) would either all be dead or captured!
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But the PGC did have normal infantry
The entire Jade Falcon PGCs complement – when introduced – was only 225 Mechs and 20 aerospace fighters – 5 Clusters and next to no infantry.
So how many worlds can be garrisoned by this small force? Realistically 5 worlds – and even then they will not last long without a security force guarding them.
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The main way I could see the police working for an invader is when you have the hope that the nation you were part of will kick the invaders off the planet.
Sorry but I do not know of any historical precedent that will support this. Fear does not work – even the treat of Orbital bombardment will not work.
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Now once the government started their purges, and other issues, then they would be more likely to help the resistance, but only when they won't be caught.
The Government being the Clans and their cronies!
The problem is the Clans never brought in a police force in numbers required – when one world alone has a population 20 times in excess of the home clans there is a problem and when eleven worlds have a population of over 102 times that of the home clans the idea the clans have a police force that can work in the IS borders on the ludicrous.
The numbers are just not there! The Clans do not, and have never had, a population that can govern any of the larger population worlds within the IS. – even an entire Galaxy would have problems.
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Life goes on even after the shooting stops.
I agree, when ever Clan warrior is either an inner Sphere bondsman or is residing six feet under ….
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They had revolts. The Falcons and Jaguars were having issues with a lot of them.
Yes they did …. But it is interesting to note that these revolts were only mentioned as occurring – they never went into specifics as to how they achieved normality ….
And then by 3150 look at the size of each of their empires – this has now become completely ludicrous – there is no way they could hold their original invasion corridor given the level of forces they had – to believe they have the forces in the far future to control such a large area is the single most ludicrous idea yet to be considered!!!!!!
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It does appear they did not have a mathematician on staff, or just didn't really think it out. 1+1=3 in this case.
Without quantifiable numbers – how many units were lost / gained – how many units were produced at any period of time etc the game can only be considered to be a formless idea with no validity to give it form.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/02/20 06:31 AM)
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ghostrider
03/02/20 12:46 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not fear holding the police to do their jobs, but tradition of the IS. Most border worlds, and even some deep ones, changed hands enough that they just dealt with new bosses, more then not. Keep the people as safe as you can while your nation tries to take the world back. The entire succession wars has shown that. Though some will still strike out at the invaders no matter what.
The other side to saying the government cronies is a simple fact. Is your home nation going to be able to do anything to get you back?
I just realized, there is yet another group that might support the clans. The illegal militias. Separatists. Criminals that want to run something. These might well join the clans, maybe in an indirect way, to gain some of their goals. Some groups were not touchable by the local police as they had friends in high places. Didn't have the man power to find them, or they were that well hidden. Maybe even being part of the little organization that kept their pay going up.
The main revolt that got attention wasn't as big of a deal because of the orbital bombardment, but because Theodore's son was there, and they were helping his escape. If not for that, the entire revolt would not have gone off like it did.
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Requiem
03/02/20 04:05 PM
101.185.82.147
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Quote:
Not fear holding the police to do their jobs, but tradition of the IS. Most border worlds, and even some deep ones, changed hands enough that they just dealt with new bosses, more then not.
And how long would these people be loyal when they find out their new bosses believe in genetic superiority – they want to place you in castes where you and your children have no say in their lives destiny – and at age 13 must leave home and go to work wherever their warrior overlords demand just because they came they came out of a womb and not a metal test tube ….
Within the IS people understand the power dynamics – even the House Lords understand that if they leave the people alone they will just accept the new house lord as all that really changed was the currency and the public holidays.
The Clans however want to reshape everything – their totalitarian regime is too completely alien for any person who grew up with the liberties and rights allowed by the original House Lords.
This is WW2 Germany France / Russia but on steroids.
Getting people to accept this barbarian way of life is beyond ludicrous – the entire idea of suggesting that where just 11 of the Captured Jade Falcon worlds whose population is over 100 times that of their population back on their home world would just meekly accept this change is asinine. There is no way any IS parent would just give over their children to this regime of xenophobic, war mongrels. Plus going from a society based upon consumerism to one that has next to none – as well as no freedoms (you will not be allowed to leave to go on a holiday you will have to remain permanently within your designated area.
Plus can you see anyone within the IS willingly giving up on their family / cultural identity? That of no longer having a last name …..
So unless the Clans are going to station ‘massive’ garrisons (Vietnam 2.0 x 1,000,000 in the violence) on each conquered world to keep them pacified – and at the same time come to realization that they cannot dictate to the people, they have to ask and pay for everything – and they have to leave these worlds cultures alone they will have partisan armies fighting against them for generations into the future – in all intense and purposes they will never be safe worlds for a clansman to reside on.
The entire Clan’s culture would be so abhorrent in the eyes of 99.9% of the IS population. The resistance would never end and over time it would become extremely violent in its backlash towards their Clans oppressors.
Something that TPTB completely overlooked – Psychology – Sociology – Religion - all completely ignored by the games specs!
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Though some will still strike out at the invaders no matter what.
Within the Clan’s Home Worlds they play at the idea of war – Within the IS they live with the idea of war in all its violence.
The Clans have no concept at all as to garrison security as they do not require it on their Home Worlds – consider a unit of the DC’s Internal Security Force – how many minutes would it take for a team to penetrate a clan garrison, for example a trinary, and liquidate the warriors within – 20 to 30 minutes max?
Also have you ever read anywhere they have a base security against long range snipers – multiple long range snipers at a range of 1km and the majority of Clan person outside will be liquidated.
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Is your home nation going to be able to do anything to get you back?
More to the point are yoy going to do anything to get yourself back – Kennedy “Ask not what your country is going to do for you, ask what you can do for your country”.
With the entire garrison assassinated how long before a relief force arrives to retake the world?
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I just realized, there is yet another group that might support the clans. The illegal militias. Separatists. Criminals that want to run something. These might well join the clans
They are Dark Caste – will they ever be accepted by the Clans? Given Clan Society Rules they would be killed on sight once the Clans realize who / what they are.
Separatists – giving up one ruler for an even more totalitarian ruler? Not likely!
Criminals – Dark Caste!
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The main revolt that got attention wasn't as big of a deal because of the orbital bombardment, but because Theodore's son was there, and they were helping his escape. If not for that, the entire revolt would not have gone off like it did.
And yet it did …. because of their underlying Japanese culture … WW2 … OPERATION Downfall and Japan’s Plans – sooner or later every DC world would revolt against the Clans, it is hardwired into their DNA.
Again there is no way the Clans can remove an entire worlds weapons they do not have the people or the resources – the idea of a garrison less than cluster size would survive for any long period of time is ludicrous – and on worlds where the population is over 1 billion will require a galaxy garrison.
It is not attrition warfare that will bring down the clans it is partisan warfare.
The more small garrison you have the easier it will be to assassinate entire units – the Clans do not have the resources to guard their bases – they have lost all experience in garrison security the day they chose to implement the idea of Trials of possession (a nice and neat way of fighting war that has no place within an IS Battlefield) – a vulnerability that would see them all dead in no time at all!
The Fact is the Clans may be able to take worlds and to damage opposing forces yet when it comes to garrisoning anything they are completely useless when in the IS.
They just do not understand – and they do not have the numbers to survive a protected insurgent campaign where entire worlds populations will fight against them.
The premise that entire worlds populations would just meekly give up to these totalitarian invaders is abhorrent!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/03/20 03:52 AM
66.74.60.165
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Not everyone will fight an overlord. Even with what may happen. And for some worlds, this is standard operating procedure. They put up with it, as most will not die to defend a nation when you don't have the equipment to even begin to try. Not everyone has a slug thrower, much less one that will crack an elemental or mech armor. And this does lead to even more people working with that government, thinking they can get out from doing what the rest do.
Didn't Katherine do that with her child with Vlad? You know. The one that was carving up the LA. Let's not forget Omi and Victor's child. Omi gave him up, so all ties were cut with it. And we won't talk about the assassinations and such done by siblings.
As a side note, these children were learning skills they would or could use in the future. I don't think warrior training would happen, but what about being a tech? Or scientist?
Some people live for their last name. Some don't care. Without one, how do you push that you deserve to rule, or even inherit something from a will?
The concept of those that would help the clans were NOT meant to be dark caste, but those inside the IS on worlds taken. People born in the LA/DC/FRR. Initially, they would love removal of the government, as well as any possible criminal records. Once the fairy tale ends, when they get thrown in with the rest of the population, they would learn. Time is the issue.
Might be the DNA in the alt, but in the canon, they didn't do it to get the world back, they did it to give Hohiro time to get away from the world. To try and say otherwise, means the story wasn't comprehended.
Clarification. The attrition war, was meant for invading the clan home worlds, not retaking IS worlds. And partisan actions will not win back worlds. It would help set them up to be taken by national forces, but will not return them.
And without the print of how many non elemental infantry they had brought with them, there is only guessing they couldn't cover worlds.
And it isn't entire worlds. Just most of the population that has no real skills in killing enemy soldiers, and have the hard ware to do so. There will always be someone trying to fight. Effectiveness and support is the problem.
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Requiem
03/03/20 06:01 AM
101.185.82.147
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Not everyone will fight an overlord.
True – but if you just get 1 to 10% or the population becoming part of an active defense cell how long will any Clan garrison survive?
Questions – 1. when you are living on the front line and your world is constantly changing hands how long before you get a weapon to defend your family; 2. The local militia – how many concealed weapons / ammunition drops will be scattered throughout them planet when they are called upon to assist / repel an invader – also what would the majority of these contain – infantry weapons / heavy infantry support weapons et al – more than enough to crack open an Elemental (Toad.)
3. Also how many support vehicles would be concealed throughout the planet?
Plus I would like to say in some European countries – when you purchase a house you get a military rifle as well, as the entire population undergoes military training. And as the worlds information does not go this deep there is no way of knowing what for sure what each planet’s reserve units contain.
However I still affirm that when they attempt to put people into Castes, remove their children, and take away their last names there is going to be hell to pay – The majority of those that may have supported the Clans at the start will now be on the side of the Partisans.
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Didn't Katherine do that with her child with Vlad?
Katherine’s child’s father was not Vlad it was her brother …. Victor … iron born not in the womb.
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Omi and Victor's child.
How many people in the IS are also the DC keeper of the House Honor? …. Just one …. Omika
How many people have to give up their illegitimate children due to political reasons? … quite a lot of people with Titles
And how many normal people would put up having their children ripped from their arms? NONE
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As a side note, these children were learning skills they would or could use in the future.
And this is supposed to happen to a child at 13? And what happens if it is just menial labor – As a parent you wanted to see your child off to University, the Clans invade and your child is assigned to digging ditches? How do you feel about them then?
Remember your last name is your identity to your family and your families past and future …. Willing to give that up?
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People born in the LA/DC/FRR. Initially, they would love removal of the government.
Only some of the real hard cases …. During WW2 New York Ports the FBI had an agreement with the local Mafia to ensure the smooth supply of goods to Europe.
In the DC the local Yakuza was closely linked to the DCMS – war of 3039 - Ghost Units – Turtle Bay freeing Hohiro etc.- so that rules out the DC side of the Invasion corridor. (their society is built around respecting authority – even when they are yakuza).
As for LA side – there is not enough information to make a definitive assessment.
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The attrition war, was meant for invading the clan home worlds, not retaking IS worlds.
This is where it all falls over …. politically there is only one action – the removal of all the Clans.
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partisan actions will not win back worlds.
Disagree …. HPG message / Black Box message pre-arranged date and time to coincide with invasion …. not a problem.
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And without the print of how many non elemental infantry they had brought with them, there is only guessing they couldn't cover worlds.
Go through the each Clans Touman – you will find their PGCs do not have infantry in any great numbers – even the solhama didn’t have that many. The idea PGCs can garrison many of their worlds is not a viable theory.
Even if you used the reserve units to garrison your worlds there still is not enough to hold all the worlds after the third wave.
They have next to no effectiveness when it comes to garrisoning any IS planet.
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…. most of the population that has no real skills in killing enemy soldiers, and have the hard ware to do so
This was also the case in ww2 … and look at the size and efficiency it grew into in France.
As for hardware …. How much hardware did the local reserve / militia have? …. Plus when IS commando forces are sent in to assist / train people (together with their Black Box) how many tons of equipment could they bring in …. Depending on the type of dropship – a couple of thousand tons! So the issue is?
Thus the effectiveness and support can be rectified given time and training.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/03/20 11:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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Still not getting that if you take the clans factories and such from the home worlds, those troops still in the IS lose their ability to fix any damage after a while. Now if you push those in the IS just a little before your main hit on the home worlds goes off, those clans should have reinforcements on the way to the IS. That would give you a little breathing room for a short while.
I'm sure a few families did buy up some smaller fire arms. And lost them as each side finds them in the next invasion wave. As for something heavy then the normal hunting rifle, most don't have the funds to buy a few, much less in bulk. The planetary government would be looking to get weapons, but budget comes into this. Rebuilding things that are needed, like power grids, would take priority, as they would rely on off world forces. That is not saying they wouldn't buy any, but it would not be in a quantity to prevent another invasion.
Put up and be able to do anything about having a child taken from you are that time is a big difference. In our own history, children tended to be considered adults earlier in life, and even more likely, to be put to work at that time.
Now being 13 and having to leave the family is the very thing a recruitment drive for mech warriors does. Aero pilots require a lot more training. Not just flight controls but how to actually deal with space and follow/read the local planets to figure out where you are, as nav computers are not always working.
They would be very upset with this happening, but most don't have a means to do anything. Recruiting for a resistance would happen, and you may get a lot of people doing so. But how long they would last, as leaders fight each other for power, especially when they 'kick' out the enemy. They want to be in charge after that. And traitors will reveal some.
You disagree that partisan actions won't take back a world, then show an example of partisans not being able to take back a world. They require outside forces. Even if they are just mercs, they need outside forces to help them win.
The entire FRR comes from the locals wanting to remove their government, when they were part of the DC. Though more then a few worlds came from the LC as well. The LC worlds didn't resist or rebel against this.
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Requiem
03/03/20 04:33 PM
101.185.82.147
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Still not getting that if you take the clans factories and such from the home worlds, those troops still in the IS lose their ability to fix any damage after a while.
If clan factories are taken from the Kerensky Cluster to the IS – doesn’t their forces within the IS gain with manufacturing / repair (consumable) services? However, if they did this wouldn’t the new factory become a major target for any IS House that has available forces to either capture or destroy?
…. also in the interim between the when the factory goes off line in the Kerensky Cluster to when it goes on line again in the IS wouldn’t each Clan use their Merchants to get everything they need from other Clans or issue a Trail of Possession for the parts they need?
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I'm sure a few families did buy up some smaller fire arms. And lost them as each side finds them in the next invasion wave.
How, when there are worlds who’s populations are in the billions? The Clans do not have the forces necessary to go through a House to House Search and even then do they have the time to dig up every backyard in case they buried within a water tight PVC tube? For wouldn’t it be SOP for all records to be purged of ownership upon any successful invasion?
Also the issue of quantity – unfortunately there is no information on this topic (just like so many others) thus it is now up to each GM to make a call.
In my opinion …..
DC – given their samurai outlook – the general population would not have access (ex military / reserve units will have access) – however yakuza would have access.
FS – similar to USA – enough said, mass proliferation of arms at every level of society.
LA – Germany – again mass proliferation … seen as a duty to defend the fatherland.
FWL – each area would have their own idea as to the rights to bear arms.
FRR – they have just gone through many years of attempting to get their own state – mass proliferation – everyone wants to keep what they have just gained.
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I'm sure a few families did buy up some smaller fire arms. And lost them as each side finds them in the next invasion wave.
In the Victorian era! However within this era statistics are demonstrating a trend whereby more are undertaking higher education to get a better life currently – within the IS who knows what this would be like.
Becoming a MechWarrior at 13 is the same as being sent to military school – they can return home at break they can communicate with their family – can you say the same under the Clans? Can they return home, can they communicate with their family members? ….. sorry to say but I do not think they would allow you to do so. Total separation from the family!
Would any family member allow this?
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They would be very upset with this happening, but most don't have a means to do anything.
Really? ….. you hide your children and then you fight with whatever you have! You join / form the resistance groups and you never ever stop until you get your child back, if your child has been taken.
As time grows your anger grows as well as the extreme measures you will implement to get your child back.
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But how long they would last, as leaders fight each other for power, especially when they 'kick' out the enemy. They want to be in charge after that. And traitors will reveal some.
It will last as long as the hate remains … during the war and for all eternity for some.
As for power – they have a leader, the Head of their House and when they send in a RCT they will put their local lord back in power – they will ensure free and fair elections to vote your local parliament members back into place – they will reestablish the rules of law under that House in question.
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You disagree that partisan actions won't take back a world, then show an example of partisans not being able to take back a world.
Disagree, they can kill off an entire garrison – as long as the Clan MechWarriors do not get to their Mechs – thus you have to be creative in your plans. There is also the fact that many worlds would have a reserve / militia forces – how many of these would be on par with special forces? As many countries do have specialist reserve units!– Plus what about police SWAT units, how many police forces could assault a Mech Garrison? Wouldn’t they be trained for just this case if a merc unit needs to brought to justice and they have the opportunity of capturing them outside their ‘Mechs?
Outside forces are only required to hold the planet for the House you are affiliated with. As the Clans will send a force to retake the world.
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The entire FRR comes from the locals wanting to remove their government, when they were part of the DC. Though more then a few worlds came from the LC as well. The LC worlds didn't resist or rebel against this.
Yes they did come from the DC …. and now they will not give it up without a fight!
As for the LC – sorry to say but this is again another example of the TPTB making a massive error in understanding politics. There is no way in hell that the Archon would ever just give up Tamar without a war (too much blood has been spilt,too much history is within Tamar, and too many people consider themselves part of the LC for the Archon to ever give up so many worlds) – the DC can give up their worlds all they want but the LC will never ever do the same – just because of a few comments she made. So in all reality the FRR should only be about as half as big as it really is from the get go.
Plus a Houses power is measured in the number of worlds they control – would any politician ever give up a portion of the power they currently hold without a fight?
Time to re-write the history to something that is more believable!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/04/20 12:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with using IS manufacturing is when or even if the clans have updated them to produce clan tech. Most were of the mind that it wasn't worth doing. And even with that, it makes them more vulnerable if they have to rely on factories so close to the IS enemy.
If they haven't changed over, then there is a big lag between having parts, as they do upgrade. In this case, it would be wise to just blow up those factories entirely, and start from scratch, once you remove the clans on those worlds. Harsh, but given the fact most clanners would die at this point, it may be the only way to avoid completely horrible losses.
The merchants and even trials needs to have someone to actually issue those orders or threats, and back them up. Without forces in the home worlds, there is little the IS clans could do to get more. They would have what is stockpiled, and already in the line. After that, the IS factories have to be done. And any real damage done to warships would be permanent, as the IS did not have warships at this time. Maybe the alt might, but not canon.
Ok. Seems like a misconception. You are NOT a mech warrior at 13. Just sent to train in one. Large difference. Most would be 'trained' about age 16-18, maybe older for some. A few would excel, but not many.
How many people were actually in the resistances in the history of Terra? Maybe .001 percent if that? No more then a couple thousand. With any sort of partisan action resulting in destruction of entire villages, and executions of those in them, it would quickly become the death call of the resistance. The population would start to resent you for sacrificing them in order to achieve your goals. They want to live, not become the subject to punishment for your actions. History has shown that resistances don't have that many people. And with the ability to wipe out cities in a few hours to days, it becomes more of an issue.
So what happens if you do manage to kill off all the garrison at once? Even though it is highly unlikely, what comes next? The enemy returns and starts wiping out any and all they find that were part of the 'crimes' against their authority. And if they don't get turned over, then just start genocide of the populace. Or isn't that how you describe the clans as being?
The lack of hope would keep some from resisting. With the FRR, the only way they could even attempt to retake worlds is with the DC/FC sending in the forces. This isn't like just changing hands on the border, but being 5 or so jumps deep behind the border, and with all the combat resulting it further losses for your side, you become a planner, but not doing anything until you get some assurances, you are not just another diversion for someone else to gain freedom.
The resistance leaders will not be so easy to hand over the power back to the government which abandoned them, or even wanted to have them. Some would do just enough to stave off retribution from an enemy, in order to keep their power. And the assassinations and such just won't be happening. The masses want a peace, and to make a living. Having their children being trained, but still able to contact them would be enough for most families. The reduction of crimes for the most part, may well be welcomed in some worlds, cities, and such.
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Requiem
03/04/20 03:24 AM
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The issue with using IS manufacturing is when or even if the clans have updated them to produce clan tech.
Operation Revival Logistics
Initially
Each Clans’ Factories within the Kerensky Cluster would produce their Clans required items;
They would then be warehoused until their all inventory numbers required for all products reaches a designated amount – at this stage they are all bulked together – additional items such as Mechs, Elemental Suits and Fighters are added – Those replacement personnel would also be added;
They would then be loaded onto their Clans respective merchant dropships and be taken via merchant Jumpships to a central space-station who would then transfer then to the more larger Jumpships (smaller number of large capacity jumpships = efficient use of resources) that are then used to transport all the goods and services to the Inner Sphere;
Travel along the exodus road – 6 months;
Upon arrival they are disembarked onto a second Space-station where they will be unloaded onto their respective Clans’ IS merchant Jumpships, and to be transported to either their hidden warehouses, within the deep periphery, or directly to each individual captured world for delivery as required by each units inventory requirements (bulk breaking as required).
To complete this process – 7 to 8 months (minimum) – for an invasion logistics requirement this is very long and care must be taken the IS do not learn of its routes – if cut it will cause severe problems to every invading clan force. (Not that TPTB ever considered this an issue to begin with!)
However there will always be a need for certain items – such as weapon consumables
At this stage each individual Clan has two options – either establish a hidden factory within the deep periphery ( where again there is a time lag between ordering it and receiving it) or convert an IS facility to Clan Specs (reduced time to delivery) however you will have to assign an increased garrison or build a new one from scratch (call in the Worker Caste from home to ship and build it) (IS - Psy-Ops – de-program their workers get them to defect!)
Being a blinkered Clansman as to the ability of the average IS warrior I doubt they would even consider / believe any IS force could take anything from them – thus why not build it (safe as if it was still within the Kerensky Cluster). AS the only real threat is another Clan issuing a Trial of Possession for their factory, as it’s not as if an IS force would issue a Trial of Possession for it?
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And any real damage done to warships would be permanent, as the IS did not have warships at this time. Maybe the alt might, but not canon.
Mass Aerospace fighters from space (against the warships and ant target on the ground in the absence of any warship) as well as mass conventional fighters and bombers (Dropships lands away from the target next to a long stretch of straight road – send them in and pound it flat with gravity bombs! – then leave). In the canon they have massive amounts of conventional fighters! (as shown in the recent forum post concerning this topic)
ALT UNIVERSE: Or you could just retake the world – kill off the garrison with a commando / ISF strike and just walk in.
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Training to be a MechWarrior
IS Cadet training starts at about 13 – however House Universities do offer courses for older recruits (assume 16 / 17) ie. a more intense short course – by the time they graduate and are posted to a unit they should be around 20 / 21.
However Hanse also had training within the military (Prior to 4th SW - Justin Allarad was in charge before getting shot out of his ‘Mech (Spider) by a Rifleman – and then court marshaled) – (so these individuals would be 22 – 25 when they start and 24 – 27 when the finish training?)
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How many people were actually in the resistances in the history of Terra? Maybe .001 percent if that? No more then a couple thousand.
Refer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_during_World_War_II
Dutch – autumn 1944 – 300,000; Polish Home Army – Late 1943 – 400,000 – soviet numbers were also similar to this as well as the Yugoslav; French – 200,000; Plus a further 300,000 others. (In Europe alone approx 2,000,000 from the five biggest Resistance groups – so when you factor in all the smaller groups this will be vastly increased)
Retaliation –
didn’t work in France – 10 June 1944 Oradour-sur-Glane (642 of its inhabitants)
didn’t work in Italy – 24 March 1944 Fosse Ardeatine massacre (335)
didn’t work in Russia - https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/einsatzgruppen
The only time it did work was in Poland when they assassinated Reinhard Heydrich – one of their own collaborated to save his and his family from reprisal – however post WW2 he was hung for treason.
Didn’t work in China – Nanking comes to mind – this act just made the Chinese fight harder against their oppressors.
History is littered with retaliation against the people by the strong – Robyn Hood for example / Roman Quintus Varus in the Black Forest – next to none of them ever succeeded.
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So what happens if you do manage to kill off all the garrison at once? Even though it is highly unlikely, what comes next?
This would have been set up in advance via Black Box Transmission – whereby a relief force would arrive and take over the security of the world in question – or you could play dumb and say they defected to the IS hiding all trace that they were killed off, the IS could then leak a transmission stating that the unit defected as a cover story.
Or if you are in the DC – very nasty food poison and say they were told not eat the blow-fish, it’s their fault they didn’t prepare it correctly!
I am sure there could be other excuses you could use as well.
Plus killing of a great deal of garrison troops all at once on multiple worlds throughout all of the Clans Invasion Corridors will shock them to their core as to their belief in how the war is progressing!
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The lack of hope would keep some from resisting. With the FRR, the only way they could even attempt to retake worlds is with the DC/FC sending in the forces.
In my Alt following the year of peace (now renamed the year of preparation) I have added the FWL and the ComGuards to the fight – so its not all doom and gloom
Plus with Black Boxes you can sent updates as to how the wider war is going – keep up the morale of those still fighting – they have not been forgotten about!
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being 5 or so jumps deep behind the border
What did we learn from the Canon war of 3039 – use non standard jump points to get into position to attack your enemy when they least suspect it.
I would also like to add – diversions are sometimes very necessary to carry out strikes upon other more important targets!
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The masses want a peace, and to make a living. Having their children being trained, but still able to contact them would be enough for most families.
Where did this ever work in a modern battlefield within the 20th / 21st Century?
As for partisan leaders – some may seek to keep their power but with the return of their Houses government this will be difficult – run for election based upon your war history may work.
For those who want to keep it by force – what do their people think about this? As well as the people on their planet? – you could always make him / her a noble and give them the world thus making them part of the Houses aristocracy.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/04/20 01:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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The game is in error calling the clan invasion route, the exodus road. A large chunk of the exodus road goes around the north east quadrant of the IS. Something the invasion route does not do.
As for moving the items to a station, then disbursing it to the proper clan, I think that is a little wasteful. Just have the proper clans merchant ships pick it up from a depot at, or very near the factories. Doesn't mean they don't have the parts depot on a station some where, it just seems like too many transfers.
I guess I should have added to not having warships, the fact that only Sol had functional warship facilities. This is where any damage to a warship would be permanent. Unless the IS clans had yardships in the IS. And even then, with taking those factories on the home world, supplies would dry up.
So it comes down to what I was getting at. One of the big issues with the 'foster' system would be the lack of contact with their children. For some, or on some worlds, this would actually be beneficial other then the lack of contact. For the poor, they would be learning skills beyond what society would allow, if testing shows that.
Now with the resistance, add in the fact that the closest help may be 30 light years away, or more. It isn't like there is a country within a few thousand miles. Not saying it would never have people, I am saying it would never be enough to liberate a planet by itself. And most would not join. They would support, but not become one of the fighters.
The clans would return, and retake the world, and with that, really punish those living there. They would know the idea of a unit defecting isn't likely. Especially those of the blood lines they came from. It is a dire insult to them, even if the person isn't bloodnamed, to suggest they would do so. And with others, the clans can tell the difference between food poisoning, including the type, over say a gun shot or slit throat. The bodies would be required for them to believe anything. DNA testing will be done.
Minor issue with the FRR recovery set up. The FC definitely would NOT allow other nations to have access to the black boxes. Just would not happen. This is tech they would need in the future, when national hatreds flared again. And all KNOW, that would happen. Not only would it allow enemy units to coordinate on your worlds, but also bypass any security at HPG locations to send out information on your defenses.
The war of 3039 was not where they learned to use uninhabited systems to strike at the enemy. They were using that long before this time. Even in the 1st war, they used it. Most the strikes on Hespertus, had the forces using uninhabited systems. Most deep raids tend to use them as well. And almost any raid, uses non standard jump points in the target system. Even if it is not around the target world.
Elections work only for those positions that can be obtained by election. Being a duke or higher can not be achieved this way. Prince titles as well as king and emperor are forged in conquest. The lure of even the title is far more powerful then most realize. And those successful, or sneaky leaders, will be tempted. Some will seize upon the thought. Most worlds want independence from the houses, but want support as well. Negotiations are needed at times, when the populace don't want the return of the overlords sent by the house.
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Requiem
03/04/20 03:55 PM
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As for moving the items to a station, then disbursing it to the proper clan, I think that is a little wasteful.
Centralized distribution point Vs. having many Jump-ships wandering the Kerensky Cluster picking up “parcels” or inventory.
In my opinion the latter is the wasteful.
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……the 'foster' system would be the lack of contact with their children. For some, or on some worlds, this would actually be beneficial other then the lack of contact. For the poor, they would be learning skills beyond what society would allow, if testing shows that.
And what about all the children from good homes, the other 99%. How are they going to accept being pulled from good loving families and thrown to the cold and emotionless system the Clans believe is best for them? How are their loving parents supposed to react?
War to the death comes to mind here or have I been lied to by every movie / TV series on this subject?
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Now with the resistance, add in the fact that the closest help may be 30 light years away, or more. It isn't like there is a country within a few thousand miles. Not saying it would never have people, I am saying it would never be enough to liberate a planet by itself. And most would not join. They would support, but not become one of the fighters.
Highly disagree! We are all in the same boat – hang separately or together.
Plus with Black Box technology, hidden units very close by and limiting Clan Access to ComStar HPG you can assure there is a good chance of this plan coming off successfully.
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The clans would return, and retake the world, and with that, really punish those living there.
They can try!
If this is occurring on multiple worlds at the same time as well as a push by the IS upon their front lines would they even have the forces to consider regain worlds in their rear.
Plus by the time the IS consider implementing this plan wouldn’t it be realistic that they are going to put multiple units (RCTs) upon each of these worlds? In addition – enough conventional fighters / bombers / VTOLS to really put a crimp in any Clan re-invasion.
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They would know the idea of a unit defecting isn't likely.
Would they? This is really where the game falls down once again – the belief that people from a closed society when they experience an open society they decide to defect – look at the massive evidence in recent history that backs this up.
The Clans do not have political officers – commissars – to keep every-one in line.
Just because the canon completely ignores this topic doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen in reality.
Those who belong to a blood-line are warriors and they are in control – they are the problem – what about everyone else from the Freebirths in PGCs who are not allowed to fight and are only used as a battlefield clean up service. What about the workers, the merchants the scientists – they are completely undervalued within Clan Society, however within the IS society they would be highly valued.
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…..the clans can tell the difference between food poisoning….
Can they? When looking at their police force (thugs in all but name) – (failed elementals who use their muscles more than their brains) – has anything been written that they have access to CSI? Are their medical officers been trained to look for the subtle signs that an autopsy would look for?
The majority of their medical sciences is concerned about Trueborn jean forging and Battlefield repair – it does not seem to allude to crime investigation that you would see within the IS.
PS – all DNA testing will do is tell you the identification of the corpse – a full toxicology report will be required and all that will tell you they died by eating blowfish – which is what the people told you they died of – they died by their ‘own’ misadventure when eating something dangerous ie. getting a rush by doing something dangerous – something that you would attribute to thrill junky MechWarrior that many of the Clans True-born are considered to be …..
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The FC definitely would NOT allow other nations to have access to the black boxes.
Too late DC already has them – Battle for Lutherin – message sent to Hanse Davion!
For all others – FRR, FWL and ComStar Units can be assigned a Fed-Com Communications Team (who have a Black Box) to send a message for them when required.
Also remember all messages would not be in the clear they would be heavily encrypted!
Consider Bletchley Park WW2, consider all the code breakers within all the militaries.
Consider large scale alliances such as NATO – how will they communicate on the battlefield if and when they are required to do so?
In this case the IS has remade the Star League as well as the SLDF – how are units within the SLDF (NATO) supposed to communicate with each other – it is easy when they have access to a HPG or do you expect a pony express via Jump-ship?
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The war of 3039….
It may not have been the first use of this tactic …. it still doesn’t say that it can’t be used again within the Clan Invasion war …. It is a good tactic that should be used as it is not something the clans would expect, just as Hanse did not expect it in the 3039 War.
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….the populace don't want the return of the overlords sent by the house.
Not all of the aristocracy are bad – many of them are actually beloved by their people(when you read all the House Books / one off game books etc.) – thus it must be taken on a case by case basis.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/04/20 07:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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Other 99%? You think the main population on worlds are rich?
Not even close. Even the name Steiner-Davion doesn't mean rich.
Those with good homes would be upset about anything they didn't like. A curfew that requires their children to be home by 5 pm would get them in an uproar.
What was that? 200k from France out of tens of millions? History has shown that most people would not join the resistance. Even in the face of what WWII brought about. And no matter how well planned, someone would be in their armor/mech when the strike goes down. Otherwise you leave a huge logic gap. There is no way the clans would leave shifts without someone on guard. It may only be a single elemental or mech warrior, but it would be something.
Actually, the IS would not be putting multiple RCTs on a world to liberate it. If they had them available, with transportation, it would be better to have them destroying the main force of the clans. Barring warship activity, they would rather destroy the front line forces, then deal with the second line and garrison units. With the exception of one of the leaders being taken in combat.
Still setting up the middle of the game with end game knowledge. Even with the Dragoons information, they still did not know how many forces they faced. The Dragoons mission was intel in the enemy territory. Not preparation for the invasion. It would be smart for the clans in increase production as soon as the Dragoons left and not let them know anything when they reported in. The stupid thing is this did not happen. The crusaders would be increasing their forces no matter what. As it was said. It was only a matter of time.
Think about it. Do you think a society that was racially (DNA) pure wouldn't look for oddities in someone that died without wounds? It would be a major investigation to make sure the entire line was not flawed.
The FC did not know about the DC having them until after the Dragoon meeting. As this is supposed to be before that, it wouldn't even be mentioned. Also, letting Comstar know they had it, would be giving comstar the keys to the Palace on both capital worlds. Not that comstar would be part of this.
And now the kicker. Your version has the 3039 war with the CC. So the DC would not acquire them.
Or are you looking to make the same mistakes you say canon does?
The use of common communication devices among allies is normal. The codes are the key. That does NOT mean they will give up their special devices and codes. Dead drops and such would remain a secret for their intel apparatus, with the allied ones being different.
Honestly, I would expect both types of communications to be used in the new SLDF. There will be secret missions that require a pony express, as they may well be bringing personnel/equipment to the field as well as messages. Also for those in systems without and HPG. No matter how close allies are, they will never give up all their secrets to each other. If the alliance sours, what do you have to stop from being taken out?
Use the full sentence for your responses.
Negotiations are needed at times, when the populace don't want the return of the overlords sent by the house.
WHEN the populace. Not the populace don't want them. The WHEN is the key here. As with Anduriens, There is a chance to change how they are treated as a whole. No more status quo. You will provide us with the funds to create our own defenses, at the level we choose. Not leave us defenseless as was done to allow the world to be taken. Doesn't matter what was going on, only our world is important.
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Requiem
03/05/20 05:51 AM
101.185.82.147
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Other 99%? You think the main population on worlds are rich?
Socio- Industrial levels are available; https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Universal_Socio-Industrial_Index_Rating
Socio-economic conditions are not, though the socio- industrial table may give an overview as to an average person I doubt this could be taken as proof as to anyones overall living conditions.
Certain worlds at particular times are described in detail when they relate to an individual story or when they are discussed at within House Books, however again not in very great detail.
Suggest leaving this to individual GMs
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What was that? 200k from France out of tens of millions? History has shown that most people would not join the resistance.
Population of France in 1944 – 138,397,345
Those within the resistance – 400,000
% of population within the resistance – 0.3% of the population were active resistance members
Worlds within Jade Falcon Invasion Corridor Population – and estimated minimum resistance numbers
Black Earth – 187,710,000 ………………….. 563,130
Somerset – 238,000,000 ……………………. 714,000
Hot Springs – 1,553,325,000 ………………. 4,659,975
Sudeten – 2,350,100,000 …………………... 7,050,300
Remember this should be considered as a base number – when each Clan starts taking children conservative estimate – times these numbers by a factor of who knows how outraged the world is (GM perview).
However, even with a 0.3% the numbers are large enough to destroy Cluster sized garrison on the smaller populated worlds to galaxy size on the larger!
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There is no way the clans would leave shifts without someone on guard.
Consider the basic Garrison – One Trinary Mech (15) + One Star Elementals (25) and two point aerospace (4)
Or how about a Cluster of Mechs on their own (45)
three basic shifts each 8 hours long – plus you need to accommodate for days off to rest – even a true born could not keep up this schedule for long ….
Then there is the issue of base security – how good are they when they haven’t actually had to conduct a security drill since the time they started initiating Trials of possession.
With a squad of trained marksman you could easily pick them off either one at a time or in groups when they stray outside (un-augmented) – then there are bombings (IEDs) etc.
What could be considered here is an example of either WW2 or Vietnam!
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Actually, the IS would not be putting multiple RCTs on a world to liberate it. If they had them available, with transportation, it would be better to have them destroying the main force of the clans.
Again with issue of transportation? Haven’t we been on this merry-go-round too many times?
At the start of the Clan Invasion … the following IS Houses would have the following ……
Fed Com – 280+ Regiments;
DC – 99 Regiments; and
FRR – 16 Regiments.
By the time of the year of peace – which I have renamed the Year of preparation
ComStar 50 Regiments; and
FWL – 66 Regiments
Will be included into the Clan Invasion War
Please remember the Clan Invasion is only about 1/3 the size of the 4th SW – so there will be more than enough Jump-ships.
Towards the end of the second wave beginning third wave you will see more than one RCT unit in front of the Clans Invasion – by the end of the third wave this will be ratcheted up once more – the clans will therefore have to increase their forces to keep pace with increase of the IS or face total destruction of their force assigned to take the world. Thus more damage on both sides – sooner or later the Clans logistics / sibko system will implode – with just to reserve Clans they do NOT have the forces to fight an attrition war – they have no concept whatsoever as to a psy-ops war (aimed at thie non-warrior caste members) – they have no idea as to fighting partisans – the have no ability whatsoever to properly garrison their forces – many of the Clans do not have enough warships to properly guard their logistics fleets – their merchant Jump-ship numbers are critically low, take them out and their ability to advance will be stopped …..
There is more than enough targets on the board to go after an many are not their warrior forces….
It is time to say the Clans invasion of the Inner Sphere is very poorly planned for and executed …. There are just too many plot holes that indicate they were inept in understanding how to hold onto the worlds they took as well as when it comes to understanding logistics.
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Even with the Dragoons information, they still did not know how many forces they faced. The Dragoons mission was intel in the enemy territory. Not preparation for the invasion.
The Dragoons reports must have been pretty inept given the number of forces each Clan included –
When you have planets with populations in the billions and as shown just eleven worlds within the Jade Falcon corridor have a combined population of 102 times that of their own population in Clan space there is something severely wrong when it comes to the size of the elemental detachment in attempting to hold onto any planet …
Plus you would have thought any report would have included a reasonable TO&E as to each house’s current units and tactics – Vehicles, VTOL, Conventional Aircraft / Bombers, infantry levels (support weapons as well as available weapons that could damage Mechs and Elementals (SRM + Inferno) etc. …. And yet they didn’t …..
Plus you would have thought they would have been supplied with each House Lords Psychological profile as well as each houses cultural profile – they should have understood many of the clan social norms would not work in the inner sphere thus they should not have even attempted them – they should have also understood how to treat people in the inner sphere – and yet they didn’t!
Plus they should have worked out that any use of a Warship within the IS would result in a nuclear attack by the House in question …. And yet they didn’t …
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Do you think a society that was racially (DNA) pure wouldn't look for oddities in someone that died without wounds? It would be a major investigation to make sure the entire line was not flawed.
What would happen when the Dr. told the warrior that their comrade died due to something they ate? Hushed up?
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The FC did not know about the DC having them until after the Dragoon meeting.
Message sent re: Invasion of DC Capitol world ….
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As this is supposed to be before that, it wouldn't even be mentioned. Also, letting Comstar know they had it, would be giving comstar the keys to the Palace on both capital worlds. Not that comstar would be part of this.
During the Year of Peace, renamed Year of Preparation, and the subsequent reforming of the SL and the SLDF …..
Concessions will be have to be made - If you want to coordinate the SLDF units within the Invasion Corridor and within the Deep periphery you will have to provide Fed-Com personnel together with Black Box Technology – no matter how damaging it may be in the long scheme of things. It would be detrimental for the new SLDF if you don’t ….
That is unless ComStar has a solution regarding their HPGs one each world whereby a unit can contact the HPG station covertly and they will send the message ….
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And now the kicker. Your version has the 3039 war with the CC. So the DC would not acquire them. Or are you looking to make the same mistakes you say canon does?
Refer - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Box
The DC obtained them before the 3039 war.
Also during the WW2 – information sharing by the allies was common practice – the end result information – not how they got the information, there will always be secrets held by one house over another no matter how close they are!
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WHEN the populace.
They do not have the political power to make demands from their house lords. How feared are LOKI and the ISF / O5P? and are they deserving of this reputation?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/05/20 12:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Well the Dragoon intel may well have been inept, but I think it was more ignored by the crusaders, and as the last one was near 3020, years old. So any TO&E would be out of date at best. Units get destroyed and replaced, normally with different units. Also size changes with this. And the attitude of the clan warriors being gods among the IS doesn't help.
This is not including the SL tech being put to use on these units as well. Additional units, such as new RCTs such as the FC ones, may not have been added.
This does bring up a few questions. If the Dragoons last went to report after they left the LC employ, there is no real way the clans would have had them report the 4th war. The Outbound light would be the only intel they had on it.
Then again, you have to question a freeborn, even in the Wolves, being given command of warships.
The people of the FRR staged many revolts and such, so the fear of the ISF wasn't enough to stop it. Why does that have any effect on worlds trying to keep from returning to status quo, after they go independent? They would push for better terms for their worlds, if the leaders are not greedy, to full massive upgrades to their own personal lifestyles. The DC would be less inclined to grant most of that, but they have given in to demands before. So it isn't like it is unknown.
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Requiem
03/06/20 01:06 AM
101.185.82.147
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The Last updated authentication of information provided to the Clans was 3020 – and the Clans invaded in 3050 – 30 years of outdated information and they decide to rely upon the information gleamed from those upon the Merchant Class Jumpship Outbound Light?
There is something seriously wrong with the Clans when they decide to invade with such outdated information. Why didn’t the send in a second or third small force with the aim of locating the Dragoons and requesting an updated intelligence report one / two year(s) prior to the invasion?
In not requesting this information their belief in themselves must have bordered on that of the zealot.
As any normal military information would request all of the most updated information to hand.
Walking in blind is no way to start an invasion!
And as for the Dragoons preparing the IS for the invasion this was equally non-existent. As the Dragoons had six warships why didn’t they use them during the Clan Invasion?
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The people of the FRR staged many revolts and such, so the fear of the ISF wasn't enough to stop it.
A demonstration is one thing …. declaring independence is another.
How many leaders stood up and gave speeches on their eventual liberation? My bet not many ……
The DC would look at the individual and determine if they are useful for the future of the Dragon ….. we all know what happens to those who are not useful.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/10/20 06:18 PM
101.185.82.147
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Second Inherent Weakness of the Clans
The Protracted War on a single world
Within the Kerensky Cluster – there are circles of equals the battle is fought very quickly – any injured / Dead people and damaged ‘Mechs / elementals / aerospace fighters can be quickly recovered and acted upon will all due alacrity by their PGCs.
However within the IS – where the entire world becomes a “Circle of Equals” and they are run around vast areas for long periods of time …. How can they
- Feed their people in the field;
- Supply medical attention to people in the field;
- Repair damage to Mechs and Elementals in the filed; etc
On a protracted basis when the Clans do not have vehicle teams (support personnel and vehicles) as all IS units have permanently attached.
Wouldn’t this mean that every Clan unit on protracted missions would have to move their Drop-ships on an almost permanent basis to fill in for these units?
What happens to these units when the IS targets their dropships first – removing their support bases – and then leads them on a merry chase again for a second extended period of time – how can clans units look to all the needs of their warriors whist in the field for extended periods of time
- where an IS unit is more than capable of working with?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/15/20 05:19 AM
101.185.93.54
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When considering the completeness and accuracy of the Dragoon information contained within their first missive (3020) – to obtain a ‘canon invasion’ of the Inner Sphere the information must have been heavily modified so as to not unduly alarm the Grand Council.
However, in the event it is accurate it should have caused a major conflagration within clan society as to their ability to conquer the inner Sphere given their numbers in comparison to that of those within Clan Space – Garrisons alone would pose a major issue – as well as how their closed and extremely hash society(s) could ever be imposed upon an Inner Sphere people from a psychological / sociology point of view.
Other issues that must be addressed – such as the Inner Spheres use of attrition warfare versus the Clan’s Blitzkrieg style of war (and how this will affect their sibko replacement numbers) will also be needed to be addressed prior to the Invasion of the Inner Sphere.
To that end they (The Grand Council) would require multiple 5 year updates as well as detailed information on certain topics so as to establish a detailed military / civilian intelligence report – thus a semi-permanent communications network should have been established with the Dragoons (and with the Inner Sphere).
However when you factor in the number and types of units assigned to the invasion it is clear that the information provided by the Dragoons was completely under analyzed by all the Clans (even the Wolves) – this can only mean the Clans do not have a dedicated military intelligence – who if used would have recognized the shortcomings of the Clans invasion shortly after 3020 and as such could have put in place measures to increase their militaries to rectify these shortcomings
As such ….
Each Clan will need – a dedicated Military Intelligence unit; MP unit to deal with insurgents and a dedicated team to administer these worlds –
They will also require a shift in the way they deal with non warrior’s – the way IS people expect to treated by a conquering entity must be similar to that of any House unit – if they (the Clans) try to impose their will the people will rise up en mass and a massive number of warriors will die not in combat but at the end of hunting rifle.
True-born Mech Warriors should remain as is but they need to taught to respect non-warriors and to undertake cultural sensitivity training ….
True-born Elementals should have increased by a factor of 10 - 20 at a minimum – Mass dropships and jumpships should have been created for this dedicated purpose
True-born aerospace pilots should also be increased by a factor of 10 – with a new larger Vengeance Class Dropship.
Their retraining – changing from a circle of equals to a world battle that could last months if not longer
But the real issue should be each Clan’s Free-born military – their PGCs –when you consider that each Clan is expected to conquer at a minimum of 100 worlds (whose populations can be 10 to 20 times that of even the largest Clan on one world alone) poses a massive issue – how do you garrison all these worlds if you are the Clans? – Strategy all large populated worlds must be garrisoned by True-born Clusters with PGCs to deal with their insurgents – and the smaller populated worlds must be garrisoned entirely by their enlarged numbers of PGCs units who’s internal structure must be modified to reflect this necessity.
PGCs
Mech Warriors in numbers similar to that of their True-Born numbers
Aerospace fighters in mass numbers to the changed amount.
However, rather than elementals – infantry in old Star League era power armor (similar to the Grey Death’s) – with weapons similar to the Star League Infantry and in numbers comparable with that of many RCTs – plus they must also be trained in anti-partisan warfare (As they will be given the dirty job no one else wants – dealing with future insurgents)
To this end both True-born and Free-born forces would also require support units and vehicles whilst within the field.
Thus if they do not recognize this by early 3020’s the numbers they can produce would be minimal for a protracted war within the Inner Sphere is doomed to failure.
And as such their need for mass medical frigates – where upon mass invasions with Inner Sphere forces they can shuttle their wounded to these MASH frigates for immediate medical attention.
The old guard Crusaders would never accept this – the new guard Wardens would see the necessity of reform otherwise they are doomed to failure …..
Thus I ask prior to the Inner Sphere invasion should there have been a Clan civil war between the Crusaders and the Wardens with an aim to reform themselves prior to the invasion?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/15/20 05:57 AM
101.185.93.54
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Question – If the Dragoon information was heavily redacted what happens when each Clan arrives within the IS and finds everything not as per the Dragoon information said it was.
Wouldn’t they be looking for someone to blame for the lack of information – ie the Wolves themselves – as it was their dragoons who doctored the information they were sent to obtain.
So right from the get go the other Clans should have censured the Wolves for their error - similar to that of the Clan Jade Falcon Vs Wolf war post 15 years of cessation to the Invasion?
The Wolves have little friends in the invasion – what if the other Clans demanded their removal form the Invasion and the immediate activation of the two reserve clans for their perfidy?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/15/20 12:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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I don't think the information was redacted so much as just out of date. 30 years is a long time for things to change, especially for clan warriors. That is more then most careers for those warriors.
As most already believed before the Dragoons were sent, that the information would be inaccurate, and down right wrong to begin with, I don't see many actually believing it. So this is even more of the idiocy of the situation. I would think they believed the Outbound Light crew more, as they were interrogated to get information.
I would think that as they started to bog down and lose more forces, they would look for any other reason then the IS was better then they thought, or they were over confident with their own abilities. But then, how many of them actually sent out their own recon? Waste would be the first thing to come to mind, but you are talking about intel on the enemy. If you don't trust the main source, why would you not send in something smaller to find out if the info you are getting is correct?
The clans did try something similar to your removal question. Censorship of Ulric himself with the treason charge.
But one possible reason why they would not try, is the fact that the clans unanimously chose for the wolves to be part of the invasion. To even try, would bring questions to why they even allowed them in, in the first place.
I know it was written like this to move the story forward, but what if the Wolfhound's ejection system wasn't a full cockpit, or a stray shot had actually killed Phelan? Maybe even Vlad just stepping on him to hide the 'shame' of even being hit by an IS pilot?
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Requiem
03/16/20 05:22 AM
101.185.93.54
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Timing – two missives were sent to the Grand Council - are just not enough .....
What information should have been included in these reports:-
Historical – all information regarding all of the Great Houses from the Exodus until the most recent developments;
Successor States – Major individuals, Companies, Military, Economic etc - Outlook for the next 5 years, 10 years and 20 years;
Sociological – an understanding of every world within the IS as per Successor state – their population, government, wealth, industry, trade, religion, belief structures …. Etc
Military – As per Successor States – Size of forces – Type of Forces (Mech, Aerospace fighter, Conventional fighter, Armor, Infantry Sea Warships) – Strategies – Examples of Battles – Battle history – timing when responding to a situation (war) – how fast can they move forces from one border to the next – Numbers – how many and type of graduates can be generated in a single year ;
Psychological profile of existing leaders – how they react – what to expect of them when you invade;
Media – what issues are currently trending / or in the past;
Communication – Interplanetary (Comstar); Planetary etc.
Technological development – current level of technology as well as expected future technological development – Military Industrial Complexes – how quickly can they build / rebuild industries / weapons as well as the type of weapon systems – logistics routes and general numbers
Transportation numbers – Number of Jumpships / dropships as per each successor state – what percentage of this can be expected to be used against an invasion?
Education – how educated are the people of the inner sphere;
And these topics are just the basics ….. a massive amount of detail is required prior to any invasion ….
Clearly, Wolf’s Dragoons did not have a dedicated team this extensive to produce a document this extensive. Plus if they did begin collecting all this information wouldn’t one of the Houses spy agencies notice what they are doing?
And in addition the Clans did not understand the information supplied – for if they had they would have understood that even with all the Clans invading at once they may be able to take a fare percentage of the Inner Sphere but there is no way they can hold the inner sphere – the number of their forces that would be required to garrison the majority of the worlds they hold, when they all revolt at the same time, will cause their military to implode – also they do not have the Jumpship / Dropship numbers to support such an endeavour - the do not have the industrial might to even consider such a grand aim – also their bureaucracy / police force required - they just do not have the numbers – when IS individual worlds alone have a population of 10 to 20 times that of individual Clans alone.
Then there is the issue of a 6 month minimum Logistics chain when they just started the invasion – and as more waves occur the logistics chain time will increases as the number of worlds are acquired - so that by the end of the 4th wave the you could quite easily be out to 10 – 12 months turnaround when it comes to logistics (dependent upon number of jumpships assigned to your Mecrchant caste).
How anyone can think the Clans can achieve their stated goals of Inner Sphere Conquest is beyond me?
The numbers are just not there to conquer and to hold what they conquer!
In my opinion if there is an invasion the overall aim of the Clans needs to be changed to something more realistic and achievable!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/16/20 12:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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In one of the wiki entries is said one of the clans brought up the fact that the last intel data was old and out of data. If I get ambitious, I will find that information and post it.
But here is a little more fire for the fuel. The FS portion of the states, is older then the information on the LC. The Dragoons left the FS for the CC after about 5 years. They had gone to report during that time. I want to say the LC was the last house that information got sent on. That was the one 30 years old. I don't think the DC was reported on, other then normal intel. No in depth coverage like the others.
Most of the things listed that should have been part of their information is things the clans wouldn't really care about. Military numbers, tech levels, and how they can move that being the main things they would be concerned with. The smarter clans would have been looking for some of the rest.
The Dragoons only did a real deep report of their current employer, which seems to be missing here. As I did not see anything about what was reported, the assumption it wasn't extensive is risky. For some things, I would suspect most of the clans would think numbers and such were bloated, as the Dragoons were freeborns in the Wolf clan.
The population size doesn't matter for most of the clans as they are used to their just being there, cowering the populations around them. This is something that seems to have been written in, to give the clans an achilles heel. And with the statement of How anyone can think the Clans can achieve their stated goals of Inner Sphere Conquest is beyond me? Can be answered rather easily. They were not trying to conquer the IS, just Terra. The erroneous thought that its fall would cause the houses to surrender. So the scope wasn't as outrageous as hinted at.
Now without actual numbers of what the clans had beyond the invasion forces, it may well be far less time to move supplies into the IS. They may well have had Lithium-Ion batteries as well as a large command circuit. A few power stations to charge the batteries would speed up the trip alot, as well as just having another jumpship waiting. With the implications in the books, it may well be they could have had several per invasion clan going on.
One more thing. It is possible they had large warehouses closer to the IS for necessities, or very common parts, like Armor and ammo.
The wolves had supplies coming in with a far greater quantity then the other clans. Is this because of larger ships/fleets moving the supplies? Or was it more fleets moving the stuff?
They made the gamble of making stashes deeper in the IS to do their blitz.
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Requiem
03/16/20 04:54 PM
101.185.93.54
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Quote:
the clans brought up the fact that the last intel data was old and out of date.
Population figures just increase
Sociology - psychology does not change
Fighting styles do not change as well as the duration of battles within the IS - numbers should be considered to increase over time – especially when it comes to vehicles, VTOLs and Conventional fighters
Economic – Logistics – transport capabilities are reasonably stable
The main issue would be Warships – have they begun remaking them by the time of the invasion?
How dangerous is it to commit a major invasion when your intelligence is spotty and outdated at best?
This is completely unrealistic to believe the Clans would invade based upon outdated information – how do you make your attack plans based upon outdated information?
So how do you garrison a single planet with a population of 20 times your entire Clans population?
Creating your information based upon each Successor State at the same time as you have a contract with them and not updating it when you move on is completely illogical. Information must be continually updated as to all topics being investigated – you never know when it may be necessary to update do to a new media release.
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Most of the things listed that should have been part of their information is things the clans wouldn't really care about.
If this is so then they have completely forgotten how important information is when waging war - all of this information is of vital importance – if they cannot trust the information provided there is clearly a problem here!
How are you going to garrison a single world who’s population is 20 times your own clans population if you do not understand their sociology – economy – religion – social understanding of how to treat them so that there will be a minimum amount of resistance etc
If you jus blindly walk in and demand they act like their own Clan serfs and within a caste system you are looking at an entire world going to war against that Clan Garrison unit – one night of rage and there will not be a Clan garrison.
It just does not hold water – two out of date missives is just not enough – if this was the case there must have been more problems than was just glossed over by the Canon history. It just doesn’t make sense at all!
Sorry to say but the canon history, in my opinion, is just too simplistic / too limited / has way too many plot holes to be considered credible.
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The population size doesn't matter for most of the clans as they are used to their just being there, cowering the populations around them.
And
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They were not trying to conquer the IS, just Terra.
The size of the garrison due to the size of the population when attempting to keep them pliable will deplete their numbers on the front line. So that over time they will run out of forces to continue the invasion. If you look at the numbers each clan bid to invade with you will see that if there was a sixth wave every clan would have run out of forces to continue with a seventh – every one of their units would be required as a garrison force – thus you would have to strip worlds of their garrisons (now making them vulnerable to attack / insurgency) plus the logistics chain would now be well over one year to get supplies from the Clan Home worlds to the front making their logistics stretched paper thin. So they would end up destroying themselves through over extension – Napoleon in Russia / Germany in Russia once more!
The numbers are just not there – they do not have the numbers to even reach Terra – the only way is if they activate more clans to take over worlds so that they can have surplus units to continue the advance – but in doing so doesn’t this increase the amount of infighting within the Clans at the same time – a point the IS will take advantage of?
The plot hole and the scope of the implausible nature of the history is just too great to be considered accurate.
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Now without actual numbers of what the clans had beyond the invasion forces, it may well be far less time to move supplies into the IS. They may well have had Lithium-Ion batteries as well as a large command circuit.
6 moths travel time from Clan Space to the IS – then dependent upon the number of Jumpships you have for your Merchant navy to transport goods to every world – or even just go to the front can be calculated based upon distance – with every new wave you increase the time required to get to the front – even with Lithium batteries it will take time or you could cause a miss jump and that ship just disappears, it is not as if you can use them permanently.
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A few power stations to charge the batteries would speed up the trip a lot
Problem:- the number of ships in the merchant fleet in comparison to the number that can be recharges at a single time (one?) Plus, how long does it take to recharge using a power station in comparison to using your sails as isn’t this dependent upon they type of star used?
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One more thing. It is possible they had large warehouses closer to the IS for necessities, or very common parts, like Armor and ammo.
True …. But this should also allow my Fenrir forces to find and remove them – something the canon game completely overlooked as an alternate game!
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The wolves had supplies coming in with a far greater quantity then the other clans.
No, they were using IS sources to supplement their own requirements as well as (as you pointed out) putting depos in advance of their fighting units so that when they arrived they would find a hidden depo to assist with the continual invasion. However what wasn’t discussed is what happens when these depo’s are discovered by an IS unit in advance of the Clan attack? Somehow they all miraculously remained hidden to the IS forces (TPTB once more?)
Another plot hole?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/16/20 04:55 PM)
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ghostrider
03/16/20 05:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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250 plus years of doing the same old thing, asking what troops defend what, makes you forget things like knowing the full amount of troops that can be called upon.
With the trueborns, they didn't care much about their own freeborns, so why even try to show any sort of caring to the IS ones? Just kill anyone that doesn't accept their superiority and authority. This is before they found out the IS wasn't like their own. They would continue to rise up against invaders, especially cruel ones.
History, with psychology, would be changed so their new subjects would conform to clan phylosiphy or be removed. No one challenges the warrior class.
As said before. The clans have had their little sterile fights, so anything outside of that puts them at a severe disadvantage. It would have been far worse if the IS had the tech beyond the SL crap they had.
The Ion-Lithium batteries are able to be fast charged. That means a much shorter wait time. This also means you can charge them up with fusion core output. As for how many can be charged at the same time, I don't know. I haven't seen anywhere that there is a limit. Just how much time it takes. I would think how much charge the station has/can make would decide this. Also the Diamond Sharks had jumpships come in with the invasion fleets. These are not listed as invasion ships, but you can bet they were full of equipment.They would be the most likely to set up something close to a command chain, in order to get profits going quickly.
The game did not overlook it, but used numbers you don't agree with. The clans did have raiders hitting their supply lines, but the clans didn't catch them. More then a few pirates showed up with clan equipment. The lack of canon ships kept the IS from doing much with this. But the insistance that the IS had all sorts of extra ships cause the belief they missed, ignore, overlooked, didn't want the clans lines to be hit. There was some opportunities here that should have been exploited but weren't. And I can see why, though I don't really agree with some of it.
The main things the clans could use was non military supplies like food and clothing, while anything military would have to be very limited. You can not strap an IS ERPPC on an omni and expect it to perfrom like the clan ERPPC. Missile launchers are a complete no go, as the clan versions were half the wieght. Ammo and none upgrade materials such as normar internal structure and armor being limited.
Also reread the part of the story line where Ulric DID have more supplies coming in, as he knew the IS would not be the short fight the others thought. This is part of why they got ahead. Less ammo weapons, means less ammo needed. No running out of lrms part way thru a wave. Most of the clans still hadn't learned that during the truce fight.
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Requiem
03/17/20 07:42 AM
101.185.93.54
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Quote:
250 plus years of doing the same old thing, asking what troops defend what, makes you forget things like knowing the full amount of troops that can be called upon.
For a society that places such high regard on tradition this is a real misnomer – didn’t the clans study any Kerensky / Amaris battles?
With the arrival of the first Dragoon missive didn’t they study the battles contained within in minute detail?
There is something seriously wrong with the Clans if they didn’t study this information – so why didn’t this foible be carried over to the Invasion? A complete lack of Intelligence gathering should have cause some major blunders during the invasion.
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History, with psychology, would be changed so their new subjects would conform to clan phylosiphy or be removed. No one challenges the warrior class.
No this an inaccurate statement ….
• Sparticus;
• Quinctilius Varus where are my Legons?
• Boudica / Boadicea;
• Joan the maiden;
• Mahatma Gandhi;
• Muhammad Ali …..
And the partisans throughout the entire human history ……
The warrior class is only strong as long as the people allow it to be strong – once the people remove this (assassination, IEDs, poisoning etc) they will find themselves the servants of the people!
Has any warrior society survived the test of time?
How can a few hundred warriors control a world whose population is in the billions?
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It would have been far worse if the IS had the tech beyond the SL crap they had.
Huntress? The defection of Clans Nova Cat and Ghost Bear? The capture of Clan technology as well as their technicians?
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The Ion-Lithium batteries are able to be fast charged.
Via their engines – over time this will cause problems …..
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Diamond Sharks had jumpships ….
From Sarna.net …. eight jump-ships ….
So not than many …… initially.
However over time as the attacking Clans expand their invasion corridor they will need more Jump-ships to ensure logistics to ensure a timely delivery.
Where is it written that the Clans were attacked by IS raiders? Was it just along the borders – Falcon / Jaguar or did they move into the centre Wolf and Bear?
Their supply lines are just way too long – once cut they will quickly run out of consumables leaving only energy weapons.
As for the wolves – “Ulric increased the flow of supplies and took the daring chance of forward deploying supply caches in enemy territory.”
From where did he get these supplies so quickly – why didn’t IS forces capture them when they were deployed in enemy territory, or how about moving these vast supplies in the first place ….
Where are my Fenrir forces in finding the Clans hidden supply depos hidden within the deep periphery?
Just allowing the Clans to win all the time is not what I would consider an accurate history ….
As for the other Clans if their logistics are this tight where is it affecting the clans performance at this time if they only have two reloads per mech? Surely the IS forces can quickly deplete these numbers – then what happens next?
This a complete nonsense of a history created for children!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/17/20 01:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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Study old League battles? Surely. But actually worrying about treachery in their trials wasn't high. Except for a few students, and a few other times, the art of one on one seemed to be the normal. After generations of being instilled in this concept, why would you think anyone but the Dark Caste wouldn't follow it? By the invasion, this was almost forgotten.
Arrogance has a lot to do with it as well.
For over 250 years, no one challenged the clan warriors. What happened before people left Terra has no bearing. Only the 'recent' history is required. And again. In the old days, there were nations around that would help with revolts, not those that are the same or even worse then your ruling body is. No help from the outside.
How does anyone control more then just a few? Fear. This is historically the main way empires rose. After a while the fear lessens or the rulers do enough that death is preferred over being a subject comes around by masses that are willing to do something. This is basic history and psycology.
How does things in the future, change the initial invasion? All military units being of upgraded tech, not the mismatched garbage the IS had when the clans invaded, would have changed the outcome long before the Huntress trip. It may have even resulted in the assault on the clans worlds before what would have been the truce fight. The Star League may not have been reborn if the clans were stopped cold. Only out of the threat of another invasion did the SL get traction to become a reality. Without the 'need' for it, I seriously doubt it would have reformed. But then with better weapons earlier, it may well have been a whole different IS by the time the clans came. Might even be IF they came.
Actually, space stations could beam over energy to the Ion-Lithium drives to fast charge it. Part of why recharge stations were important in the original SL. And while the risk was increased the more you used it, you could use this method a couple of times, then sit in one location doing the slow charge, removing the threat, much like using the MASC system. It may well be ok to use the double jump method going thru systems that just did not warrant a station in them, ie completely useless for the most part. Some would say any material can be mined for use, but costs being the main reason they ignore that.
The pirates, which I believe Morgan's Valkyries were one that had clan mechs. They were a complete bane to the Falcons, as the were raided by the Valkyries, and could not take them out. Basically what they did when the Valkyries raided the IS.
Ok the name is wrong. Susie Morgraine-Ryan of the Greater Valkyrate was the group the ended up with a full lance of working omnis. The did get defeated initially, but rallies the pirate bands into the New Belt Pirates. They are the end result with the omnis.
Edited by ghostrider (03/17/20 01:20 PM)
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Requiem
03/18/20 06:14 AM
101.185.93.54
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Quote:
Study old League battles?
Even in today’s military academies many ancient battles are considered
• Second Punic War – Battle of Cannae
• Hannibal, Scipio Africanus
• Caesars win over Vercingeterox – Gallic Wars
• Mongol invasion of Europe
• American Civil War
• WW1 and WW2 especially some of the Generals – Rommel for example
• Elastic defense in depth - Manstein.
• Patton – Battle of the Bulge
• Many of the battles Korea – Vietnam (French and American)
If the Clan’s have forgotten to train their people as to the basics they deserve to be out maneuvered when it comes to fighting on a world by world basis rather than within a designated circle of equals – and using dueling tactics.
Such a lack of training should have been evident during any major engagement.
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How does anyone control more then just a few? Fear. ……This is basic history and psychology.
Where has this ever worked?
• Vietnam
• WW2 Germany and Japan?
And then going all the way back to the Roman Empire
Long term I can’t think of any successful forces using fear as a weapon to control the masses.
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How does things in the future, change the initial invasion?
Military Intelligence – every five years from the dragoons so 20 to 45 – 5 missives
First the entire garrison question must be addressed - massive amount of PGS would be required to such an extent that their numbers would be greater than that of the True borns
Second the numbers and structure within each Cluster / galaxy would have to be changed
Third the fighting style of the clans would have to be changed
Fourth sociology of the clans would have to change in regards to the Inner Sphere – the idea of Castes as well as Fostering would have to be nerffed – caln warriors wound need to undertake a cultural sensitivy training
Fifth all clan personnel traveling to the inner sphere would have to undertake a couse to familiarize themselves with the norms of the Inner Sphere
Sixth 10 years prior to the invasion an expedition will be needed to be sent to the deep periphery to establish multiple Clan colonies to assist with the logistics requirements of the invasion
Seventh Massive amounts of HPG Space stations will be required
Eighth two massive Space stations will be required one in clan space and the second in the deep periphery to bulk break all inventory requirements for each invading clan
Ninth Logistics – massive Merchant navies will be required to ensure the logistics chain of each invading clan
Tenth – support fleets – medical frigates – jumpship repair ships
Eleventh – massive warehouses of Logistical supplies
Twelfth – Sibko numbers – massive revaluation given a loss depletion report whilst fighting within the inner sphere – either go to an academy style format or allow fore through via their trail of position – massive replacement numbers will be required due to the amount of expected deaths whilst in the IS – Elementals for example must be increased by a factor of 20 to 30 prior to their invasion aerospace pilots must be increased by a factor of ten
Thirteenth – support vehicles for their entire forces to ensure adequate logistical support whist in their field
And this is just the minimum amount required on the list due to the massive amount of information supplied by the Dragoons …..
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The Star League may not have been reborn if the clans were stopped cold.
Correct …..
With the creation of the Fed-Com, with the elimination of CC this leaves three Houses ….
At this stage there must be a major debate between the Wardens and the Crusaders
If it comes to light that Victor (as a child) will have an arranged marriage with Isis – and the Fed-Com will be merged with the FWL. The issue of continuing the invasion comes into doubt ….
Expect a Clan Civil war between the Wardens and the Crusaders …. As to the continuance of the invasion …. So depending on who wins will determine the next step ….
However if the war is won by the Wardens --- Fed-Com and FWL defeat the DC --- there is now a possibility that the Clan Colony within the Deep Periphery will make contact with the new Star League in an effort to join ….
If the Crusaders win – all remaining Crusader Clans would regroup – rebuild and then invade at the same time …..
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Space Stations
How many remain within the IS – also if the Clans are going to build HPG stations are they going to built a recharge function into them to decrease the logistics time to the deep Periphery.
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Morgan's Valkyries
Never heard of them ….. and not on Sarna
Susie Morgraine-Ryan – first I have read this, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/18/20 11:38 AM
66.74.60.165
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Still stuck in the past? Ancient wars on Terra have some tactics that are used, but where in any of those battles did you have the ability to bring in forces from other worlds? In system on up to light years away? Where you can strike and run within minutes, yet take down large chunks of the city with a few units? Or drop those units from orbit? Not one time shots like missiles or bombs.
With this next section, I would suggest you reread your posts before hitting the continue button.
Military Intelligence – every five years from the dragoons so 20 to 45 – 5 missives
When did the Dragoons top sending intel? 15 years after they got to the IS? Say 3 times with the 5 year window.
Also the math is off. 20 to 45 years is not 5 missives. It is 4 to 9. They arrived in 3005 and stopped sending in 3020.
But in all of this, how can you change the beginning of things when the end hasn't been done? Applying the end results to change the battle that hasn't even occurred yet is the problem with most of the responses.
This is like saying the Japanese did execute the German scientists that helped get the A-bomb working. Just to change the end result that could not have been known at the time of them bombing Pearl Harbor. That is where most of the misunderstanding seems to be coming from.
Cultural sensitivity training. Really. Who in the clans would have any knowledge of this, much less care about freeborns? Do you honestly think the trueborns would treat the IS barbarians and better then their own flesh and blood?
As you like saying about the superior race. They do not bother with things like how others feel. They are to rule or they are to destroy all that oppose. Getting along with the lessers isn't an issue. This is why they all fail. Piss off enough people and they all come at you at once. Not separately.
Why do you think every HPG is in space? Most are on the ground. So recharge stations are not added to them. They can be completely separate things. And planned out right, you only need a recharge ever third jump. Full recharge for normal drive and batteries, jump twice, recharge the batteries at the third, jump and do normal recharge. You cut out 2 out of every 3 weeks.
As the edited part of the last response says, I got the name wrong. The New Belt pirates were the ones with the clan omnis. They were formed from the Greater Valkyrate, which Susie was in charge of, but was destroyed in the initial clan invasion, with other pirate groups joining them.
The actual name of the unit before the Greater Valkyrate is Morgraine's Valkyrate,
I thought Morgans, not Morgraines. That is my mistake.
Edited by ghostrider (03/18/20 11:40 AM)
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Requiem
03/20/20 01:03 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
Still stuck in the past? Ancient wars on Terra have some tactics that are used, but………..
These tactics form the basis upon with all others are formed …. they allow those that study them to understand why one force wins or looses ….
A concept every great tactician must understand – the ground – the people – the weapons technology – the logistics – some concepts never change …..
Quote:
The Dragoon Missive
Cannon – two missives ….
and, (3045-3020)/5 = 25/5 = 5
Question if they stopped sending responses why wasn’t a second reconnaissance mission sent? Clearly the Clans have no concept whatsoever as to what Military Intelligence Represents.
Any military requires a clear understanding as to their target and their capabilities. Without this clear understanding the clans are running blind and they deserve whatever happens to them …. Ie their first attack group will be obliterated within the first 3-5 years of the war.
J. Robert Oppenheimer – Born New York City April 22 1904
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Cultural sensitivity training. Really. Who in the clans would have any knowledge of this, much less care about freeborns? Do you honestly think the trueborns would treat the IS barbarians and better then their own flesh and blood?
This is where military intelligence comes in together with psy-ops – if the clans do not treat the people of the IS with dignity and respect the same way as the DC and the FS do when they conquer each other’s worlds you are going to end in Ireland during the time of Troubles scenario and they have never had the forces or the knowledge to police this scenario.
If they cannot recognize this on their own (ie their own failings) before they enter the inner sphere from the military intelligence they have gathered – again they should suffer the same consequences due to their actions.
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Why do you think every HPG is in space? Most are on the ground. So recharge stations are not added to them.
Go back and re-read …. Discussing Clans HPG space stations placed along the exodus road and ending at each entry way into their invasion corridors to allow communication with their advance invasion fleet all the way back to the Kerensky Cluster and the Hall of Khans to report on battle updates and logistics requests – they are in space and they can have a recharge station attached.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/20/20 01:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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Were you trying to say 5 misses? As in didn't report in that time?
It sounds like you were saying each intel update was a missive.
There is different levels of winning or losing wars. You can win military victories, but end up losing wars. And vis versa. Knowing how to position water fleets is great, but when there is no water sources or worse, nothing near those sources, the skill is pretty useless. In air combat, especially space, most ground commanders use front/back left/right for combat tactics. They forget up/down as well.
But to suggest that ancient battles would decide the outcome of battles in the future with tech that isn't even around yet, isn't going to work as well as you would hope. Any of those historic battles listed did not have to deal with orbital bombardments, or even the enemy being able to drop more then infantry from any height. A mech unit can halo drop behind your lines or one units that are relatively alone. A unit of even a lance is far more deadly then an infantry battalion during all of those wars. And you don't have to worry so much about supply lines when doing so. You land, and pick the unit back up to rearm and drop elsewhere.
And with this, a single shot can change the outcome. In ancient wars, that wasn't really the case. A properly run military would have second and third in charge be able to take over. But in the game, it can destroy your most powerful unit.
In the ancient wars, you didn't have to worry about an enemy running literally over you, stomping on you and your unit until you are paste.
So they create a solid platform, but are not the end all for game tactics.
For a unit that is out to control a place or destroy it, there isn't much needed to know how the people will react. Dictatorships tend to do that. Follow my orders or die. Very few were overthrown without some sort of outside help. So few that it is foolish to even think of trying unless you have everyone rise up at once. And that isn't likely to happen.
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Requiem
03/20/20 03:25 AM
1.158.222.248
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Consider reading
https://www.hoover.org/research/why-should-we-study-war
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/23/20 07:40 PM
1.158.222.248
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Natasha’s Black Widows
Situation, during the War of 3039 Natasha Kerensky utilized her Black Widows on Hall against the 18th Marik Militia – what was so unique about this battle was her units configuration – rather than each company comprised of twelve ‘Mechs, was now comprised of fifteen and termed a “trinary”.
This unique configuration would remain for the next eleven years and would be noticed by every unit that they engage ….
Fast forward eleven years and the Clans Invade – and what is noticed is that they too operate in a fifteen Mech Company which is also called a “trinary”.
At this stage every intelligence organization within the Inner Sphere should have been requesting answers from Dragoons and Natasha …..
But it appears that she has skipped Outreach for parts unknown …… and why she would return to the Clans when for the past 45 years she has been fighting in the Inner Sphere as a mercenary and she is now in her sixties (past here use by date and should be assigned to a Solhama) – and a Totalitarian Regime (so her belief in the freedoms the people of the Inner Sphere have must be brought to question when by her actions she believes it would be best to put everyone into a Caste – or was it her plan all along to get her Wolves to fight for the Inner Sphere as seen by Phelan’s Khanship).
But I digress – at this similarity why didn’t Hanse demand a Court of Inquiry in which Jamie Wolf would have to explain his actions as it is clear at this point that his Dragoons do have a relationship these new Invaders.
All of these Wolf units as well as their people who were off world at this point in time should have been put under lock-down until this issue was resolved.
So why, as per the Canon, did they do nothing?
Can we say oops once more?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/24/20 02:58 AM
66.74.60.165
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Have you actually read the books?
It was said in print, Natasha returned to the clans during the recall because she was the ONLY bloodnamed person in the unit. She felt it was her duty, as she could do more to stop in then being in the Dragoons.
Now with canon, the lack of intel was horrible. But still you don't believe it. Written in a lot of books and yet the belief that they were omnipotent and could see all, including the future.
Let's see. The Dragoons have been reliable mercs for the entire time they were in the IS, and they did tell the IS that the clans sent them. As there has not been any treachery from the Dragoons against the IS, and their fierce killing of their own, suggests they have broken away from the clans. People do that at times. History of humanity and such.
Arresting them would have done what?
Pissed them off? Get them to sign on with others, while boycotting you?
Maybe even get the other houses upset with you, as they liked the service they have gotten.
The whole idea of this is bordering racism.
Someone comes from a location, then that location goes to war with you, so that means those that broke from them are guilty that their home lands attacked.
So that would mean genocide of anyone living on the worlds taken as all worlds should be in a constant revolt.
And they did things. Just not successful, like getting spies deep inside the inner workings of the Dragoons.
Some of them were arrested before and after the IS knew they were clan. Normal crimes. Not persecution because someone else did something.
But I do agree that there should have been more suspicion when the clans invade with the Widow's configuration.
Does that mean Comstar was part of their invasion plan as they use units with 6 in them? Are they some secret Star League? Must be. Wait. WOB used that configuration... GET THEM!
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Requiem
03/24/20 06:57 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
Natasha returned to the clans during the recall because she was the ONLY blood-named person in the unit. She felt it was her duty, as she could do more to stop them than being in the Dragoons.
This is only achievable via three ways
(i) Rank – and only as Khan – The Khan is the only person who can make policy changes to the Clan (Being a Totalitarian Regime it comes with some major flaws);
(ii) Sabotage – internally putting the ‘kybosh’ on the entire operation from within; and
(iii) Spy – the ability to acquire sensitive information that will hinder their advancement into the Inner Sphere.
In all reality, given her age as well as the company she has kept for the past 45 years – her political power within the Wolves would rank one step over a Sur-rat. Making it highly unlikely she would get anywhere with the Wolves …. Plus once it became common knowledge within the Inner Sphere she is with the Clans and is operating within a front line unit the bounty on her head would be astronomical – plus many units would head hunter from the get go!
Thus her ability to survive would be next to nil long term!
Quote:
the lack of intel was horrible.
Worse than horrible …. It is nonexistent being 30 years out of date!
As written within the books, it completely overlooks this fatal flaw …. yet again!
The writing should have reflected their non-existent intelligence!
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The Dragoons have been reliable mercs for the entire time they were in the IS, and they did tell the IS that the clans sent them.
Yes, during the year of “peace” …. So what about before this? From the day any IS unit received intelligence that they describe their 15 Mech Companies as a ‘trinary’ this should have identified the Dragoons as having a relationship with these new invaders – and as such they should have been brought before a Court of Enquiry within the earliest days of the invasion – and when id didn’t occur it shows TPTB were playing with reality once again.
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Arresting them would have done what?
Japanese civilians during WW2 – Potential fifth Colum? – Finding out the Truth would be a start.
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Pissed them off? Get them to sign on with others, while boycotting you?
Loose Outreach and everything on it for a START. – When the only contract in town is against the invaders what are they going to do?
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The whole idea of this is bordering racism.
How? Sorry but I don’t understand this.
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Someone comes from a location, then that location goes to war with you, so that means those that broke from them are guilty that their home lands attacked.
How? Unless they can explain their position to the powers that be – ie. Hanse Davion.
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So that would mean genocide of anyone living on the worlds taken as all worlds should be in a constant revolt.
You have lost me again … please explain again with this statement and the following paragraph .
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there should have been more suspicion when the clans invade
Arrest followed by a tribunal at the minimum
Quote:
Does that mean Comstar was part of their invasion plan as they use units with 6 in them?
Six was the original SLDF Lance complement – Company was therefore eighteen …. So anyone using this configuration would have been seen as nostalgic …. The only other time this configuration was used was by Hanse’s special light units when attacking Goliaths ….
No matter how this is sliced, this is a major stuff up – every intelligence agency within the Inner Sphere would demand the Dragoons explain themselves, given their apparent connection to the enemy, within the opening months of the war. By not doing so shows a complete lack of understanding as to military intelligence / Policy procedures.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/25/20 03:19 AM
66.74.60.165
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You forgot one very important thing Natasha could do to screw up the other clans. Become a warrior and fight against them. Trails of refusal and Grievance comes to mind. Ulric could have used her to destroy most of the others opinions of how easy it would be to take the IS.
Non intelligence?
The people that made the game, and you not only bought it, but continue to buy it, yet you say it's garbage?
Wow. That's just messed up.
The lack of intel was on all sides of the conflict. Or just out of date before they get it. But to have any sort of game, it has to have poor intel as well as sensors. There would be no way to ambush a unit if they had real sensors.
Loose Outreach? Mistype something?
The bordering on racism is suggesting that the Dragoons be arrested and convicted on the actions of someone else, just because they are clan. No real trial here, just arrest them. This is on top of them being one of the most reliable mercs showing when they say they broke away from the clans, it would be taken as the truth.
The Dragoons DID tell them what was up. A little late, as they should have said something when the clans first hit the IS, but then the knee jerk reactions like the ones you are suggesting, would doom the IS to lose. Sending troops to take out the Dragoons, means hurting yourself, and the only ones that KNOW what is up. So cut your nose off to spite your face some more here.
The idea of genocide of worlds would be the logical outcome of not trusting someone because they aren't from your entity. So the clans logical end to the suggestions put forth, would be kill everyone on the planet, so you don't have any revolts coming up. They aren't us, so don't trust them at all.
Interesting that they changed the SL lance to 6 units, when everything in the books points to 4. Dropships having a factor of 4, with almost everything else doing the same. So when did they change this? I know it's retconned in.
A lack of policy?
Do you not understand a thing about the world and the way it works?
You deny everything, and lie like hell for military intel. Otherwise, you might as well just sign over everything you own, and become the leaders pet.
I agree, there should have been some major inquiries as well as harsher actions to find out what is up, but arresting them and putting them on trial is too far. If you were going to arrest them, you would not do it in public. Even with that, arresting the ENTIRE Dragoons would be impossible without a fight. Something all sides want to avoid.
If they got up to 5 regiments again, 3 to 1 suggests 15 regiments to take them out. Not including their warships. And this also is saying that no other house steps in to help them. This fight is the worst outcome that could happen at the time of the invasion.
But again. Still clinging to canon for some reason.
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Requiem
03/25/20 07:56 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
Become a warrior and fight against them. Trails of refusal and Grievance comes to mind.
How? When as a warrior of a military unit you require your immediate C.O.’s approval (Chain of Command) – so depending upon her immediate rank and then the unit she is assigned to, this will limit her ability to do nothing other than what she is ordered to do by her immediate C.O.
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Ulric could have used her to destroy most of the others opinions of how easy it would be to take the IS.
Doubtful, like Phelan she will be seen as an aberration not an example of the existing Inner Sphere warrior – plus if he did it would be like putting a target on her back politically; every Clan Wolf warrior would immediately resent her (Office Politics), so her political standing goes from one above sur-rat to sur-rat.
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Non intelligence?
Clans should have had no intelligence regarding:- If they hadn’t captured the ComStar Vessel Outbound Light ….
- They wouldn’t know where the best place to start the invasion corridor would be – it is just by happenstance that it was right on top of the FRR – as they should not have known that the FRR even existed, as far as they should have known it was either part of the Lyran Commonwealth or the Draconis Combine – for they would not even known the existence of the Fed-Com. Thus as they did obtain the Outbound light they might have a rough understanding.
- Existing units experience / size / weapons / strategy etc – all can change in 30 years
- Where the borders currently are – are they in Fed-Com / FRR / DC space and as such what would the sociology of the population be
- How many maps as to the terrain upon every world could they have and how out of date could they be – also what about any structural changes made by the local garrison?
- Population densities could have changed in 30 years <and yet in the canon version this was never even considered a factor.
- Also what is in front of their invasion how many units? Who they are , their composition, their experience
- How about how long it would take to move forces around so that in steed of fighting just one RCT you are now fighting two or even three all hidden on one world laying doggo ….
- The idea of moving an invasion fleet forward and you have no idea of what is there when you arrive shows a complete lack of understanding
- What about the IS sending forces parallel to the invasion corridor to attack your rear – they have no flankers whatsoever looking out for this thus opening their rear to attack and the possibility of cutting their logistics
- They have no idea as to the production capabilities the IS is able to produce – thus they have no idea if the IS can out produce them and as a consequence fight a war of attrition.
- They have no idea as to the number of graduates that each state can produce each year – attrition warfare implications
Do I really need to go on – stepping into the IS without a clear understanding as to their full capabilities is completely ludicrous!
As for the Inner Sphere forces ….. everything about the Clans to start with and over time less and less …. Especially once that capture their people and they want to become your bondsman and then they want to tell you everything …. (as seen in the 1st Somerset Strikers)
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There would be no way to ambush a unit if they had real sensors.
This is why you have ECMs
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Loose Outreach? Mistype something?
Not at all – Outreach is in Fed-Com (Suns) space and if they did anything that could be considered treasonous – Hanse give-th Hanse take-th away.
Being considered a 5th Colum unit for the Clans would qualify as treason – so explain yourself before a court of enquiry or else!
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The bordering on racism is suggesting that the Dragoons be arrested and convicted on the actions of someone else, just because they are clan. No real trial here, just arrest them.
This is war and they have shown they were once Clan and are now behind their lines – what if they are just sitting doggo and are 5th Column – the damage the dragoons could cause to the Fed-Suns / DC manufacturing facilities could be considerable if they chose to attack – they must be placed under lock and key until they have proven themselves part of the IS – to do otherwise is just asking for it
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This is on top of them being one of the most reliable mercs showing when they say they broke away from the clans, it would be taken as the truth.
And how does any of the Leaders of the IS know this unless the Dragoons themselves prove it?
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The Dragoons DID tell them what was up. A little late, as they should have said something when the clans first hit the IS, but then the knee jerk reactions like the ones you are suggesting, would doom the IS to lose.
No … if approached rationally you could get a rational court of enquiry … however, if you send a cowboy expect the OK Corral.
Quote:
The idea of genocide of worlds would be the logical outcome of not trusting someone because they aren't from your entity. So the clans logical end to the suggestions put forth, would be kill everyone on the planet, so you don't have any revolts coming up. They aren't us, so don't trust them at all.
Isn’t this the idea that the future Clans came up with in 3150?
Quote:
A lack of policy?
This is where a little research is of assistance …. https://definitions.uslegal.com/m/military-court-of-inquiry/
Thus how a Court of Inquiry works, “such courts are not judicial tribunals …. It is instituted solely for the purpose of investigation , as an assistance to the President, the head of the Department {in this case the First Prince – Hanse Davion}, in determining whether or not any further proceeding, executive or judicial, ought to be taken in relation to the subject ”.
So what happens here … Hanse either sends a message via HPG or an Officer to the Dragoons on Outreach, there he has a sit down with Jamie – they have a discussion where the officer requests Jamie have a sit down with Hanse to discuss the similarities between the Clans and that of the Natasha’s unit – they also request to have a talk with her … then find she is not there, they then ask where she is …. thus it now becomes imperative that Jamie sit down with Hanse and explain the situation asap.
Until the talk between Jamie and Hanse is over the FCAF MAY quarantine Outreach with a fighter screen (and with a Black Box) – so what happens next is up to Jamie and the Dragoons. Or they MAY just do nothing considering all the years service he has provided the Federated Commonwealth. (Individual GM decision?)
PS – the Warships are still outside of the Inner Sphere and hidden away.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/25/20 04:05 PM
1.158.222.248
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Sun Tzu The Art of Clan Wars
Where’s the Playbook for the Fed-Com and the DC when combating the Clans?
By the start of the Third Wave wouldn’t you expect that the Fed-Com, FRR and the DC would be starting to developing an anit-clan Playbook something similar to Sun Tzu The Art of Wars Quotes?
A Combat Doctrinal Shift - each battle – each new clan person defecting / taken prisoner / made bondsman – more information should be added to the list – more changes should be made to the way the Inner Sphere retaliates ….
Where Clans have technological advantage the Inner Sphere must have numerical / tactical advantage – vehicles, armor, VTOL, conventional fighters / bombers, infantry, artillery … gang up on them en mass at a time and a terrain of your choosing – increase the ‘Mech lance from 4 to 6;
Where Clans have range superiority the Inner Sphere must restrict – choose your ground with care;
Where Clan’s utilize Warships …. The Inner Sphere has – Regimental Aerospace Combat Wings (RACW) – Bing Wings (and either nukes or their own warships from the get go);
Where Clan’s utilize a small number of Elemental Infantry Support …. the Inner Sphere has Infantry en mass (mass Battalions per world) …. the Inner Sphere has sniper rifle development corporations / they have SRMs (Infantry support MRMs at an earlier stage?) with inferno rounds (a higher temperature Inferno round?), partisans, commandoes and internal security force assassins;
Where the Clans are moving in a predictable straight line … the Inner Sphere has time to make every world in front of them a Kill Box – increase the number of RCTs per world … turn every word into a pyrrhic victory … and remember the Clans have no training against man-made Pillbox and their ilk – a camouflaged kill box trap;
Where the Clans terrorize the worlds (people) they capture with the implementation of draconian society …. the Inner Sphere has partisans, assassins, IEDs, commandoes, security force assassins … the Clans have a complete inability to garrison any world they capture - where the Inner Sphere knows what happens to a garrison that does not have an adequate base security force;
Where Clans use their PGCs to garrison captured worlds they are ill prepared for an attack by Inner Sphere forces in their rear … reclaiming lost worlds … cutting supply chains … providing freedom to “Free-born” warriors who now fight for their freedom from their former Totalitarian Masters ….
Where the Clans utilize a long chain logistics system, a system that is rife for cutting …. make your enemy weaker and mane yourself stronger at their expense …. Find it and cut / capture it either in the Inner Sphere or the Deep Periphery (remember the Lyrans use of orphans to damage Jumpships in the past);
Where the Clan’s utilize a Sibko system, this produces a Sibko reinforcement curve …. the Inner Sphere has attrition warfare and mass production of support weapons – including people;
Where the Clain’s utilize a Sibko training system the Inner Sphere has Academies and Boot Camps …. (1.) Removing warriors anyway you can until they reach a mathematical tipping point – lost warriors is greater than their ability to create replacement numbers …. (2.) In training their warriors they create duelists proficient in the Blitzkrieg …. they are not however prepared for the duration battles the Inner Sphere has come to expect …. They do not have the on ground support mechanism Inner Sphere Units are use to …. They only have their Dropships (Logistic support/ repair and maintenance support – as such their Dropships are now a primary target for capture / destruction ….. during the long battle;
Where the Clan’s society is based upon a Totalitarian Regime ….. the Inner Sphere’s is open and free …. consider their logistical support and their technical support …. consider the Inner Sphere’s use of Psy-Ops teams – consider assisting them to desert to freedom;
Where the Clan’s warriors revere all things Star League era …. They are ill prepared for the truth as to the people’s freedom during this era …. When confronted by the truth that their society is the complete antithesis of what the Star League stood for …. How will their people (non warriors and warriors) react? Could we see an uprising as people demand their freedom from such a Totalitarian regime?
And remember whilst the Inner Sphere is acting behind the scenes they have access to Black Box technology to bypass ComStar;
Remember the Inner Sphere can reverse engineer any clan technology … given resources and time ……
Remember what happens to collaborators …….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/26/20 03:17 AM
66.74.60.165
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Wow. Lacking imagination with the use of Natasha. Multiple trails of possession with her leading the troops would be a prime example of her being used against the crusaders. She might have to get an ok from Ulric, but I don't see that being that hard to do.
More human psycology being used. An old worn out useless warrior wiping out your best troops would be very embarrassing to anyone that is constantly losing to them. Puts a real bad light on the clan and their blood lines when they do it at will.
Interestingly enough, the clans learned about the 4th war as well as the Fedcom being made. The question is how? The 4th war was used to prevent an earlier invasion. The Dragoons being part of it, but after they last report makes you have to ask how. Then realize the Dragoons could NOT have been the only intel gathering mission. Or maybe Wolfnet was still sending intel. This is the part where the GM has to make the call. Not have it printed.
The word is lose, not loose. Lose means to go missing and remove from possession. Loose is opposite of tighten.
They were clan so they need to be arrested. Sounds like you would never hire anyone that has come from a society that has been in conflict with yours. So in Australia, you would never allow Japanese citizens to do ANYTHING in the country, as they came from a nation that tried to destroy the country. See how stupid this sounds?
Prove themselves? The long history of reliable service says a lot. But how do you think they should prove themselves? Turn over everything they have including the warships and all high level tech? That isn't going to happen, and to even ask would be insulting to any unit that relies on secrets to keep going. Including your own nation.
Did you forget that Hanse talked directly with Jamie Wolf on multiple occasions? Do you think they did not discuss a few things beyond what to eat while shooting the breeze? Not saying there were any good answers, but it had to be done. I am sure Ian had Hanse talk with them before they were hired.
Defecting clans men? Not likely, as they were still all warriors.
Bondsman? When did the IS even find out about this? It isn't like the warriors would say much.
Taking prisoners? You need to win and keep the prize in order to do that. Which didn't seem to happen in the earlier stages. At least in canon.
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ghostrider
03/26/20 03:28 AM
66.74.60.165
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The unit Wilson's Hussars tells you what happened to anything dealing with VTOLs. They were purposefully nerfed and left out of the game as much as possible, as it showed just how poorly mechs combat them. So it was not used for masses VTOLs attacks before the clans, why would it be used after the clans showed up?
Still not believing the IS didn't have the troops or the resources to move them, as well as the ability to strip worlds of defenses in canon. The alt might let you take cow patties and shoot them out at high speeds, to kill warships, but the canon doesn't. As this is an argument about why canon didn't do this or that, the alt doesn't exist.
Now here's something to consider. Has Comstar hacked into local networks and gotten the names of those that might be part of a resistance movement? So the clans would know more about it then you would think? Since Comstar would eventually take over themselves, it would be wise for them to have such lists.
Kind of funny saying draconian methods, as the DC DOES such things. So the difference wouldn't be that different. Might even be less harsh on some worlds.
As was said before. The IS DID reverse engineer clan tech. The excuse to not use it was the costs. So it isn't the question of IF they could. In this case it is TPTB preventing it from being used. Which is bs, but then as I said with this. They could not come up with anything to over come an IS with clan tech easily. WOB couldn't have done it if the nations had clan tech running. They got to the point that only greater numbers would threaten the IS. So aliens would be the next thing.
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Requiem
03/26/20 07:37 AM
1.158.222.248
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Natasha Born 2973 – so at 3050 she is 77 years – do you know any one that old who has the reflexes of a 20ish old? She is an aberration no matter where you come from .... or given abilities by TPTB .... in the 70’s – decreased strength and flexibility – lose an inch or two as the disks in you back flatten – sorry but this is once more stretching the bounds of reality .... again!
Trial of Position – requires approval from a senior officer
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the clans learned about the 4th war as well as the Fedcom being made. The question is how?
ComStar’s Outbound Light?
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Then realize the Dragoons could NOT have been the only intel gathering mission.
Not included in Canon.
5th Colum Movement - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column
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But how do you think they should prove themselves?
Transfer the entire Wolf’s Dragoons to the Clan’s Invasion front line.
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I am sure Ian had Hanse talk with them before they were hired.
Prince Ian Davion had his younger brother Hanse talk with the brothers Wolf and they disclosed everything about their past – that they were a reconnaissance force for the former SLDF who were there to obain information prior to a massive invasion ……..
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Defecting clans men? Not likely, as they were still all warriors.
And their true-born warriors in PGCs as well as their non warrior caste personnel? They would never defect from a Totalitarian regime to an open and free society where their skills would command a massive amount of money and they could live in luxury for the rest of their life ….. no, they would never defect!
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Bondsman? When did the IS even find out about this?
1st Somerst Strikers – as well as from the first Clan warrior ever captured.
To think that a Clansman was never captured in battle is a little naïve.
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So it was not used for masses VTOLs attacks before the clans, why would it be used after the clans showed up?
Maybe not in your games but in mine they were …..
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Still not believing the IS didn't have the troops or the resources to move them, as well as the ability to strip worlds of defenses in canon.
Compare the number of forces being moved in the opening days of the 4th Succession day to the number that is being attacked in the Clan Invasion – the 4th Succession war is at least 10 times the size difference – there are more than enough Units to move around – Canon the Fed-Com had 270 Regiments more than enough to move against the Clans and still keep their borders locked down.
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Comstar hacked into local networks and gotten the names of those that might be part of a resistance movement?
Sorry but this is beyond belief once again – when the resistance is based upon a cell strategy and there are no lists, it is just individual cells members and a dead letter drop – good luck in figuring out the size of the resistance upon any world.
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The IS DID reverse engineer clan tech. The excuse to not use it was the costs.
From an economics and military standpoint this statement does not hold water!
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So aliens would be the next thing.
Why not it couldn’t be more implausible than some of the stories within the game …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/26/20 07:39 AM)
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ghostrider
03/26/20 08:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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Reread the information in the wiki and elsewhere that has the clans stalling for the invasion using the 4th war as a fact to avoid invading before the Outbound was taken.
Sensing betrayal, the Crusaders lobbied immediately for an invasion. The Wardens succeeded in staving this off until news of the Fourth Succession War, and later the War of 3039, reached the Clans. To the Crusaders, the formation of the Federated Commonwealth suggested the Inner Sphere risked reconstituting the Star League on their own, without the guiding hand of the Clans, while for the Wardens the fact that Great Houses still fought among each other meant a new Star League was a long way off and an invasion would require a large-scale occupation of the entire Inner Sphere, something for which the Clans were ill-suited to undertake.[4][5]
The proverbial straw came in September 3048 when Outbound Light, a ComStar exploration ship, appeared suddenly over the Smoke Jaguar homeworld of Huntress.
No entity that has land holds will send all of their forces off world. And it would be beyond foolish to think to even ask that, with the exception of evicting them.
Still missing the time frame. The clan warriors would not defect to the IS in the first few waves. It wasn't until after the pause did anyone BUT the Jaguars get to bring in the PGCs. So defection wasn't happening before then.
The Somerset Strikers was retconned into the game and even that isn't very reliable. And I seriously doubt any of the first wave or two would have said anything about bondsman, as you have to get them off the world after you take them in order to really interrigate them. Something that didn't happen in canon for the first wave or two.
Again, canon was being argued, then the alt was brought out to defend your position. Seems like there is no logical argument gets the alt answer.
Oh boy. The start of the 4th war was planned out years in advance, where the invasion was a shock. As stated in the canon stories, they thought it was nothing more then pirates taking out a world or two. It was only after the second wave did they realize something bigger was up. So with the 4th war, they knew what and where things were going BEFORE they were moved. It was all planned out. Not sure why it was compared to the clan invasion.
Do you think every group that MIGHT resist is professional? The fact that over the years intel gathering will tell you a lot about who is a member of what group. As Comstar was watching for openings in order to advance their goals, even those that aren't a full fledged combat attack, they would have gotten some intel on who might help them initially, and who might interfer with them after they do. Oh wait. Comstar actually does intel gathering? But everyone else in the IS does so. Also WOB was gaining popularity in Comstar. So it is very possible they prevented the information from getting to certain people.
The economic costs, in my opinion, is a bunch of garbage. But if you want to use canon, then that is what is going on. You can have your own universe do what ever, just don't expect someone else's games to allow it.
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Requiem
03/27/20 06:29 AM
1.158.222.248
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Sensing betrayal, the Crusaders lobbied immediately for an invasion. The Wardens succeeded in staving this off until news of the Fourth Succession War, and later the War of 3039, reached the Clans. To the Crusaders, the formation of the Federated Commonwealth suggested the Inner Sphere risked reconstituting the Star League on their own, without the guiding hand of the Clans, while for the Wardens the fact that Great Houses still fought among each other meant a new Star League was a long way off and an invasion would require a large-scale occupation of the entire Inner Sphere, something for which the Clans were ill-suited to undertake
Given Canon history this statement has nothing to corroborate its validity. Where did this information come from if the exodus road was still a state secret known to but a few?
The only missive from the Dragoons to the Hall of Khans was in 3019-20 and there were no other clan forces within the IS until 3050.
The only other information obtained was from the Outbound light.
So where did this additional information regarding the establishment of the Fed-Com and the war of 3039 come from?
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The clan warriors would not defect to the IS in the first few waves.
AGAIN! …. Free-born NOT True-born defect en mass – so that is the PGC and their technicians and support personnel!
Going from a completely closed system that treats you as less than human to a system that rewards you for your services is a real no brainer as to which system they would choose.
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The Somerset Strikers was retconned into the game and even that isn't very reliable.
And yet Adam Steiner becomes the Archon? …. How can a character be reconned and at the same time become one of its central characters?
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And I seriously doubt any of the first wave or two would have said anything about bondsman, as you have to get them off the world after you take them in order to really interrigate them.
First Clan Warriors would WANT TO educate their captors as to the correct way to live, they are that chatty ….have you ever read anywhere where they were told to only give Name Rank and Serial No?
Second an interrogation can take place ANYWHERE and at any time.
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The start of the 4th war was planned out years in advance
Correct
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where the invasion was a shock.
A completely ill-conceived and poorly thought through endeavor – how can you invade with absolutely no intelligence staggers belief! and then stretching out the Logistics chain …. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of idiots would fight a war in such a manner ….
The reference to the pirates was in regards to the fighting in the Deep Periphery.
As soon as one of your front line forces is attacked and decimated, and reports in with gun camera footage, you know your up against something serious – and as such every light in the strategy wing will be turned on …. Sorry to say it was not the second wave it was more like the second battle report they realizes something is up.
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Not sure why it was compared to the clan invasion.
Comparison between a well though through strategy …. And what should have been incompetency personified where the only saving grace is the presence of advanced technological weapons far advanced than that of the Star League pitted against technology below (Sub-Par) to the Star League …..
In all reality by the third / fourth wave the entire front should have become a quagmire of never ending battles, upon twenty worlds or so, a real meat grinder …. and as the attritional war goes on Inner Sphere opens a second front in the rear and in the deep periphery – given time they should have collapsed due to a lack of reinforcements (Sibko graduates).
But what was created a is a story that has no plausible structure given the back-stories information provided …. So unless changes are made to the back story the main story has little to no plausibility.
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You can have your own universe do what ever, just don't expect someone else's games to allow it.
Everyone should be allowed to form their own universe
Everyone should be allowed to modify Canon history to a story that fits what they believe in.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/27/20 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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There had to be other clan intel assets in the IS. Wolfnet was operational before the Dragoons got in, otherwise, they would not have had the information to assist in hitting the CC in 3005.
Also, the Dragoons last report was before the 4th war. When they entered the DC employ. The 4th war was after that.
The character Adam Steiner is valid, but the actions, especially the cartoon wasn't at the time it came out. The Strikers were much like the video games. Based on a few facts, but not enough to really be canon per se. The Enhancement tattoos would not work well with the pilot seated. They would have to be held up like in Babylon 5' furies, or Pacific Rim's Jagermechs. Otherwise, the pilot would be thrashing around in the seat. And to have it just vector graphics would not have worked to improve the pilots combat skills. This could have been done with just another viewing mode in the combat screens.
Still believing that the worlds being invaded had free access to get out of system with valuable information like battle roms? The clans targeted jumpships to keep their invasion quiet. And with the deep periphery, most did not have HPGs stationed on the worlds. A few did, but not many. Costs to build and maintain them verses how much you would make by even having them there is the issue. Comstar would have a few for their own use for things like intel and exploration, but that would be limited.
The plausibility of the story is there. The wanting to insist that the IS had all these resources on hand to do whatever is where this becomes blurred. Even with the industrial revitalization of things like jumpship production, the IS still did not have the ships to just throw away on foolish endevors, like sending them into battle against unknown forces on a whim.
As stated a few times. Forming your own universe isn't the issue. Saying canon is wrong and only yours is correct is. Saying canon has to follow it is.
And other then tournaments, there is no absolute canon game play, as anything you do, will not follow exactly what happens in canon. Most don't even bother to say they become the first lord or what ever. The play In the setting and change where they are at.
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Requiem
03/27/20 06:42 PM
1.158.222.248
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Wolfnet was operational before the Dragoons got in, otherwise, they would not have had the information to assist in hitting the CC in 3005.
Consider this statement ….
There are two Wolfnet operations – there is one assigned to the Dragoons and there is the second Wolfnet that remains within Clan Space.
The one with the Dragoons assisted with all Inner Sphere operations ….
Also, the Dragoons one and only report was in 3019-20 so there is no conceivable way the Clans could have known about the Fed Com Union; the Succession War; the war of 3039 etc until they captured the Outbound light …..
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The character Adam Steiner is valid …. but the actions, especially the cartoon wasn't
And what does Canon have to say about this? ….. other than his actions are considered valid history.
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The Enhancement tattoos
Were in the series ….
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Still believing that the worlds being invaded had free access to get out of system with valuable information like battle roms?
How many times do you read about a retreating Inner Sphere force making it off world …. Nearly all the time? So yes there would be Gun Camera footage …..
Also how do you think ComStar’s First Circuit got its copy of the Gun Camera footage? HPG sent to one of the Successor States GHQ via HPG.
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The clans targeted jumpships to keep their invasion quiet.
Where is this written?
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and with the deep periphery, most did not have HPGs stationed on the worlds.
Not relevant …. once they are in the inner sphere the word will get out via HPG or via JumpShip refugees or Military retreating off world ….
This is when all the Successor States will begin to take notice and begin to move their forces into blocking positions.
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The wanting to insist that the IS had all these resources on hand to do whatever is where this becomes blurred. Even with the industrial revitalization of things like jumpship production, the IS still did not have the ships to just throw away on foolish endevors, like sending them into battle against unknown forces on a whim.
So they have the numbers to wage the 4th Succession War but they don’t have the numbers to move their forces into flanking positions? The Fed-Com, FRR and DC are all fighting the same enemy so unless you take a leap of faith you are not going to get anything done in defeating this new enemy – you have no choice but to weaken certain areas to fight the Clans.
So where is the gothic line or the gustav line when looking at fighting the Clans?
The entire tactics used within the canon history has no real basis on the facts on hand as well as the resources that should have been on hand – by the third wave the entire front should have become a massive war of attrition!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/27/20 06:43 PM)
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ghostrider
03/28/20 12:11 AM
66.74.60.165
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Wolfnet seemed to be one unit. It does not mean they were strictly there for the Dragoons. Conceivable is very possible when you consider that Wolfnet could have been independent to the Dragoons, but worked with them closely until they stopped responding to the clans requests. And since the grand council had been discussing the invasion and using some data to postpone it, there was some other source of information coming in. It may well have been another intel unit, but I would think Wolfnet was most likely.
Adam's stint was retconned into the game. During the time of the cartoon, his actions were not part of the game. So that means they were novel writers looking to make an exciting story, without using the rules of the game. It wouldn't be the only time this was done... The Argo...
The enhancement tattoos were not the ability to use vector graphics to see. It was supposed to enhance the users connection to the mech or power armor. So that was completely false in the cartoon. As stated, and ignored, you could do vector graphics without the need to destroy your nervous system by getting the tattoos.
To my knowledge very few got off a world. Victor being one of the few. Unless they change history again, most worlds fell without anyone getting away.
How would word get out via HPG? Leaving the black boxes out of it, as they were not on every world in canon, how did the HPG network send word? Comstar cutting off all broadcasts, and faking the ones that did go out, how did the truth get sent along their lines?
The periphery would be the ONLY place that comstar didn't prevent the truth, and most didn't believe anything the pirates were crying about. It was in the periphery comstar agreed to help the clans. So that is the only time before a few waves that the truth might have gotten out. The rest would have been ridiculed if it did get out.
I see you still are lacking tactical sense here. The clans drove deep into the IS, but without knowing their target, how do you expect the invasion to go? Most IS attacks on each other, go deep then widen the corridor. So you send all these units into the perceived path, only to find out the clans spread out across the top of the IS, where you pulled forces from. As they did NOT know at the time, the clans were after Terra, you can NOT ignore the fact they may well spread out.
And yet again, this is not some sort of mathematical solution that could play out. Only after the Dragoon meeting did the houses really understand the problem. Until that point, they would do as they always have done. Get intel to respond properly. Striking out blindly wasn't going to happen. And yes. They could not trust comstar to give them the unedited reports.
Though the Clans had been quick to jam all communications and destroy all ships attempting to escape their conquered worlds
Eventually terms were finalized: ComStar would suppress all communications coming or going to worlds targeted by the Clans, and in certain instances pass along military information to them, in exchange for the Clans not meddling in ComStar affairs and allowing it to administrate worlds conquered by them.
Well what do you know.
The second wave of the invasion began on schedule in May. By this point, the governments of both the FedCom alliance and the Draconis Combine had recovered somewhat from their earlier shock and began to mobilize a response, moving fresh supplies and units into the expected path of the invaders.
Interesting what is in the wiki.
The defenders were further aided by how the Jade Falcons regularly underestimated their skill and determination to protect their homes. Although the Jade Falcons had a fair amount of intelligence on the Inner Sphere gathered previously by both Wolf's Dragoons and their own Watch services, the former's reports had been largely dismissed as traitorous gossip and the latter simply ignored.
Edited by ghostrider (03/28/20 12:32 AM)
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Requiem
03/28/20 07:38 AM
1.158.222.248
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Conceivable is very possible when you consider that Wolfnet could have been independent to the Dragoons, but worked with them closely until they stopped responding to the clans requests.
If this is the case the two units would be locked in a civil war within the shadows – how long would it take for the Inner Sphere Security forces to pick up on this shadow war?
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there was some other source of information coming in….
And yet this other source is not written about anywhere …..
Plus if there was another unit wouldn’t they tell the Hall of Khans that they have gone rogue (not destroyed) and as such now pose a security risk – thus shouldn’t they be eliminated to ensure information security?
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Adam
He and his actions are either in …. Or completely out … however everything he did do in the comic was included in the Canon ….. to create yet another set of issues within the Canon Inner Sphere ….
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enhancement tattoos
Clearly visible within the comic …..
The vector graphics were in the neuro helmets …..
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To my knowledge very few got off a world.
Jade Falcon – First Wave
Seventeenth Skye Rangers RCT - he unit was able to withdraw from Barcelona –
Grave Walkers - Reduced to a battalion from a former command of over 2 regiments plus supporting elements – ie. withdraw
Eighth Arcturan Guards - the remaining elements of the Eighth retreated to the planet Somerset
12th Star Guards - The First and Second were nearly destroyed on Steelton and Toland, but were able to withdraw to Wotan.
Winfield's Brigade – On Winfield then The survivors of Winfield's Regiment faced the Fourth Falcon Velites on Butler shortly after – ie withdraw
Steelton Tamar March Militia - the Twelfth managed to hold their positions long enough for elements of the Star Guards and the surviving militia forces (one regiment) to evacuate the planet
So no a few didn’t get off world … many units were able to get their survivors off world – and with them gun camera footage / valuable after action reports etc
So yes the next wave should have been provided with this information and the next wave of Falcons should have found it even more difficult to win
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Comstar cutting off all broadcasts,
Given the number of units that got off world they would have no choice but to deliver the messages otherwise they would have to explain why not – plus if the commanding officers aid got out and he/she knew what was in the message and it was clear there was tampering – good luck in explaining that one.
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see you still are lacking tactical sense here. The clans drove deep into the IS, but without knowing their target, how do you expect the invasion to go?
When they are moving in a straight line how does this matter? There were no waves where they “spread out”.
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Only after the Dragoon meeting did the houses really understand the problem.
Disagree – one clan prisoner and an interrogation chamber and you know the objective!
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ComStar would suppress all communications coming or going to worlds targeted by the Clans
Where is this written?
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and in certain instances pass along military information to them
Why would Focht allow this?
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in exchange for the Clans not meddling in ComStar affairs and allowing it to administrate worlds conquered by them.
Again why – they are Mongols they do not ever allow others to do anything for them unless they are part of their Clan.
This just doesn’t make sense …..
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The second wave of the invasion
Where are the additional forces per world?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/28/20 12:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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Was recon from units in a shadow war with the main intel of a nation? For the agents of Wolfnet go to a shadow war with the Dragoons, would expose them, and the Dragoons themselves didn't have more then contact with a few cells in the intel unit. With them, they are clan. They will not be taken alive if at all possible. So trying to crack the cell network would take more then what the Dragoons had. Maybe even more then Comstar or the houses anti intel could do. But with reading the wiki further, it seems the Watch was active in the IS to do the intel gathering before the invasion.
They were moving in a straightish line. In military tactics, you change up on the enemy when they start responding to your moves. Sucker them into moving troops off other worlds, then hit them. As this was written, the clans didn't really do this, that still does not mean during the invasion, it wasn't a valid concern. Again, the future and end means can not be used to alter the present. Something that seems to be standard with a lot of the ideas on how to deal with things.
Wiki location, under Clan Invasion-The Invasion-Periphery Action, last paragraph.
This is where it is stated in print, that Comstar blocked transmissions and gave out military intel to the clans. And it may not have been Focht but underlings that were assigned to dealing with the clans. Also, Focht didn't agree with it. But he did his job as ordered.
Edited by ghostrider (03/28/20 01:00 PM)
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Requiem
03/28/20 05:56 PM
1.158.222.248
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But with reading the wiki further, it seems the Watch was active in the IS to do the intel gathering before the invasion.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Watch
2980 – Intelser – “could only produce a fragmented and confusing picture of the Inner Sphere, composed as it was of washed-out warriors and lower-caste members whose intelligence-gathering efforts amounted to probing missions of the Periphery.”
3000 – 3005 Dragoon Compromise
3050 – “When the Clan Invasion began, the Watch was formed by order of ilKhan Showers as a blanket service for all of the Invading Clans, each one maintaining their own semi-independent branch, primarily as a counter to the activities of Inner Sphere operatives infiltrating their Occupation Zones.”
Sorry to say there is nothing here to say the Watch had anything within the Inner Sphere between 3025 – 3040 and then returned to Clan space with news of the recent succession war, the merging of two states and the war of 3039.
The Clans information comprises only of the 3019-20 Dragoon Missive and that of Outbound Light when it came to the intelligence used for the Invasion.
This again shows the favoritism given to the Clans – in reality there should have been massive amounts of issues when they invaded …. And yet none!
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that still does not mean during the invasion, it wasn't a valid concern.
Yes it would have been a concern – so where are the flanking forces to stop this? – where are the forces that should have attacked them in the rear to force them to slow their invasion?
In all reality the tactics shown in this invasion is pitiful!
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion#Periphery_Action
“ComStar would suppress all communications coming or going to worlds targeted by the Clans, and in certain instances pass along military information to them, in exchange for the Clans not meddling in ComStar affairs and allowing it to administrate worlds conquered by them. Some in the First Circuit, as well as Focht himself, were uneasy with these terms, but Primus Waterly agreed to them, cementing an alliance between the two groups.”
And yet people were able to get out and yes these people may know of HPG messages being requested to be sent – the absence of messages however will be taken as suspicious.
So what happens when an adept’s who are within the Clan Occupation Zone is taken by one of the IS spy agencies or if they penetrate the HPG compound itself and down load the records?
Then there is Focht – his character would NEVER go along with this – poor writing from the get go! – Focht’s character would have rebelled by either assisting the Inner Sphere or Killing Waterly ….. his character is not another German going along with the war crimes as shown in WW2.
Then there is the issue of the Clans themselves – their entire philosophy is based around a warrior Clan independence – they do not need assistance from anyone – they can just take what they need (Mongol Philosophy) – the idea that they need ComStar to administer their conquered worlds would be a complete anathema to them – it is rule by the gun where the serfs know their place or they are killed government – someone dropped the ball on this, there is no way they would ever accept assistance from anyone other than that of their own Clan!
Sorry to say but this union just doesn’t work on many levels it is just too implausible to be considered with any reality.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/29/20 03:12 AM
66.74.60.165
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First, it would depend on how long before the clans came in that the coms were shut down. I would bet the normal excuse would be the station had issues, and could not transmit or receive. Now if someone was waiting for an emergency call, then they might be worried about something. Until a while later, most would not have thought it an invasion by the periphery boogieman.
Except to get themselves interdicted, why would any IS agency kidnap a comstar personnel? This makes no sense.
It was only later, that they figured comstar was working with the enemy,
Not sure if you realize it, but even the DC and CC weren't that bad. This concept might be done by the clans, but not be the IS. Or more to the point, they would NOT say anything to comstar, as it would show they HAD done it. So in the end, how do you accuse comstar of this?
There is the loyalty of oath. Swearing to uphold the first circuits commands no matter what, is something that would make it hard to turn on Walterly. Only when she showed she had lost touch with reality, did he finally kill her. And look what happened. WOB was formed. Yes, reorganizing the company had a large part in this as well.
Several things about the assumption of the clans Mongol outlook.
They were after taking out the enemy and taking lands, yet did NOT want to administer them. So the order that was formed in the end times of the Star League, which held the coms in their hands would do fine. They could always remove the workers if things got bad.
With the idea that they wanted it all, would negate the entire history of the clans, as they would never get into the IS unless only one remained. They would constantly fight each other for anything and everything. Sooner or later, even that would turn on itself, as different warriors would think they should be in control and try to take it. Moreso then the trials allowed.
Implausible seems to be the word used a lot. Maybe the lack of seeing things from the other point of view is the issue. There are major holes in things, but understanding what they were going for will stop the implausible response. Down right stupid does work in some cases, but not all.
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Requiem
03/29/20 06:46 AM
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the normal excuse would be the station had issues
To lose one could be considered normal,
But to consider more than this number in a relatively short period of time?
Has this ever happened before (Precedence)?
Sorry but this excuse would not be considered believable – send in the spies to find out what is really going on?
With the safe return of your spy ComStar will be grilled over hot coals for their actions!
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why would any IS agency kidnap a comstar personnel
Taking an acolyte on a Clan held world would be achievable if professionals made the attempt – then with the right inducement they could find out what the First Circuit is really up to ….
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how do you accuse comstar of this?
Easy – what happens when all three Comstar Leaders on each of the Capitol worlds – Fed Com and DC ask them to explain their actions when presented with all the evidence? They then demand Waterly’s removal as well as ceasing all their activities with the Clans or all three will Nationalize their HPG facilities with immediate effect – they will also put a hold on all their funds held within the banks of ComStar – and all their personnel with immediate effect.
They will also make public their actions to the entire IS even if this means via pony express!
As per all workplaces they will agree – how else can these individuals get a promotion unless they remove the Waterly?
It gives them the perfect reason to get rid of her ….
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There is the loyalty of oath.
And how many actually believe this? When you are sent to the most distant world with poor living standards – as per the worlds near the Deep Periphery wouldn’y you become a little bit disenchanted over time?
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Only when she showed she had lost touch with reality, did he finally kill her.
And collaborating with an unknown Totalitarian military units in not loosing touch with reality?
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They were after taking out the enemy and taking lands, yet did NOT want to administer them.
Trial of POSSESSION …. It is in the title when you take possession it comes with it all the responsibilities of administration!
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Implausible seems to be the word used a lot.
When the Canon story gets plausible I will say so … so far more implausible than plausible …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/29/20 12:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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With Comstar sending out 'normal' messages, the ones behind the lines would be a little less concerned, while those on world would not know multiple systems have 'gone dark'.
It is very possible multiple HPGs have gone down, but not likely in on area. You are talking thousands of stations across the IS, and more then a few in the periphery.
The first excuse I can think of, is the clans took over the base and forces the peaceful comstar techs to do as they say or be punish, possibly killed. It would suggest that the first circuit is up to something, but not proof from just one person. I do know with Hanse, he would be very suspicious of them, as they were working against him in the 4th war. Which may well be how they were starting to see the messages being faked. Intel agents having to put in specific code phrases and such when sending messages. If they don't have them, then the message is questioned.
But this does not answer why an IS agent would kidnap a Comstar worker? It sounds great, but it would be like taking a Vatican member. Not as important as messing with comstar directly, but still something that will cause problems. Honestly, if you were to do this, hitting one in the Combine if FC, would be most likely.
Promotion by assassination does not work like that. Only one of the first circuit can be promoted, and doing this sets up a very bad precedence. It would also require both nations to make the accusations at the same time. This isn't likely in the before the year break. Also, Comstar would not give in to the demands of the house lords like that. Deny, deny, deny.
Even though the first circuit would probably love to remove Walterly, it just isn't that simple.
Disenchanted is one way people can go. Hardened to such actions is another. Most of those that can, will transfer out of there. Some would actually like being there, as they can wield more power then normal. The masses are more likely to give you what you ask in return for getting them out. Not that you will, but the promise is enough.
Being a soldier, you are sent to another country for a war. You see the horror of it, but do you try and quit because of what is going on? It is called desertion. Comstar will have something like it, and ROM will be sent out to fix this issue. Even if it means the death of the person. Basically, you do as your told, or your the one to suffer. Their positions in Comstar are a little more comfortable then a lot of jobs outside of it. They don't worry where or even if the next meal will be there. Except for work outside the station, you are not normally exposed to the elements, and even that work is over with when done.
Belief in a cause, is not the same as belief in a leader. Doing as you are told, by the leader of an organization that you believe in, causes you to do things you don't want or like. No matter what you might want to say, people just do not do things like kill, without being psychotic, like that. And as much as you might think so, Fredrick did NOT do something like that when he thought the Archon was going against the wishes of the people. So why now? He had to make decisions, and some of them were poor as well.
Look at the history of the clans when running things. Military is the main thing trueborns want to deal with. Running factories and such is up to the failed warriors. And there is a limit to the power that you would want to give them. Plus the rampant thought of only I can do it right in the clans would prevent their own people from doing so. If Comstar gets it wrong, they can always remove them from the spot. But the great warriors do not want to be sidelined by running a world. The clan and all clans, yes. But then they would have a large staff to do so.
Not saying canon is the best, most of it is plausible if you don't have the thought of only one way is correct. As with Gundam Wing, it is highly implausible for a single fighter, the gundams, to have far more firepower then battleships and such. FTL is another touchy subject. Until proven by doing so, there is no FTL possible. Wormholes might well do nothing but crash anything that goes into them, with them going absolutely no where. Warpspeed may well rip the vessel apart before it actually catapults the ship at high speeds. The ultimate weapons that destroy a planet that is build by someone is the same way. The distance you would have to be from an exploding world, makes the range almost impossible to achieve. So yeah. All games have a few basic flaws if you want to really get into it. You ignore them to have fun. The story line isn't as important as keeping rules and such consistent. You can invade worlds with made up units at any time. You can't fight the same battle if you change the rules and expect the same outcome.
The adventure packs show this. Do the same combat even a second time and it comes out differently. A single dice roll can change it entirely.
And any result other then the fluff changes canon.
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Requiem
03/29/20 04:32 PM
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You are talking thousands of stations across the IS, and more then a few in the periphery.
But when a cluster of HPGs within the same are go dark for no real reason this will cause alarm bells to go off – plus when they are being invaded is this when the Acolytes are told they will be working with the new invaders who have arrived from beyond the Inner Sphere and were once the SLDF and yet are now a Technologically advanced Totalitarian Warrior Caste Base Society hell bent on taking over everything?
When this is explained isn’t it plausible than more than one will want to protect their homes and their loved ones from this fate and will send out messages asking for help?
Sorry to say but this absolutism written into the story just doesn’t work.
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I do know with Hanse, he would be very suspicious of them, as they were working against him in the 4th war.
Not to mention that his and the Lyran security forces had a secret shadow war – so really there is no trust there whatsoever!
This is why the Black Boxes would have been manufactured in vast numbers!
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But this does not answer why an IS agent would kidnap a Comstar worker? It sounds great, but it would be like taking a Vatican member.
Consider watching the Scarlet and the Black - the film tells the story of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty, a real-life Irish Roman Catholic priest who saved thousands of Jews and escaped Allied POWs in Rome.
Information is required and Comstar Adepts have it – one way or another Inner Sphere spies are going to get it.
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Honestly, if you were to do this, hitting one in the Combine if FC, would be most likely.
Would they even know what is going on? Wouldn’t it be a need to know scenario – when you are invaded then you will need to know what the First Circuit has arranged with the invaders …..
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Promotion by assassination does not work like that.
Sorry, but yes it does …. The only way for some to get the top job is to remove the person in that position one way or another!
It is then up to each individual to gain the votes necessary to take the top job.
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Also, Comstar would not give in to the demands of the house lords like that. Deny, deny, deny.
When confronted with absolute truth …. And with exposure that the entire IS will know what you have been up to? Ie. Richard Nixon and Watergate?
In my opinion yes it is that simple!
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Comstar will have something like it, and ROM will be sent out to fix this issue.
Yes I agree – and yet many may be open to suggestions / bribes etc. Plus over time you do form relationships with the indigenous population – so when they are hurt by the Clans are you going to just sit there and do nothing?
Some may do nothing …. And yet for others this will be a call to war!
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Belief in a cause, is not the same as belief in a leader. Doing as you are told, by the leader of an organization that you believe in, causes you to do things you don't want or like.
True – but be careful of absolutism statements – this cannot be said true of every Adept.
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Fredrick did NOT do something like that when he thought the Archon was going against the wishes of the people. So why now? He had to make decisions, and some of them were poor as well.
In the future we see Focht as having learned from the mistakes of the past – he has gained some wisdom – he has matured – what we do not see is him reverting to the old person he once was.
This is where things go off the rails – the new Focht is not the same person as the old – he would not betray the Inner Sphere because he was ordered to do so.
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Look at the history of the clans when running things.
I did …. You must have a Clan True-born as the overlord of the captured territory who will tell the peasants what to do!
Under him/her are the lackeys came with the invasion fleet and know what is expected of them …. They are the ones who actually run the factories etc the problem is they have never had to establish a massive bureaucracy – especially when one would has a population of 20 times that of your entire Clan’s population back home …. So good luck in explaining how they could govern this single world without a permanent and massive garrison?
Comstar would never be allowed any control over any planet – they would have to recognize their new Clan Overlords first!
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Not saying canon is the best, most of it is plausible if you don't have the thought of only one way is correct.
The more I look the more implausible scenarios I find ….. so how can the ….
Ghost Bears and the Nova Cats move their entire population to the IS?
exodus Road HPG stations be created?
exodus road logistics fleets be maintained in vast numbers?
idea that s sibko reinforcement scenario play out within the long run?
Partisan activity within the Clan rear deplete their forces numbers quicker than that of the front lines?
idea that Clan Free-born don’t run away?
idea that Clan Techno logy be replicated within the IS?
IS military don’t use omnis?
And where is the dedicated anti elemental weapons for IS infantry?
Sorry to say but this is just the tip of the problems that were never really fixed - too many problems equates to a completely implausible story. Basic flaws are one thing but what we have here is huge holes that upset the entire history of the game world – a fact checker and an editor would be nice prior to publication!
As long as the engineering remains constant you can have you FTL drive …. This is why it is called science fiction.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/30/20 03:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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They didn't go dark. They cut the current news out, and faked the rest, As for the workers, how do you know they even met a clansman? The manager and front desk would deal with them, while the rest still report to the manager. Hostile takeovers of companies happen.
As the order to just do their job is standard, why would they break with their training? They get given what information the bosses want and that's it. Hell, we don't even know if they are allowed out of the station, except to work on it. They may not want to either. Not sure of their work places.
I don't think anyone needs to know you are working with the clans. They are just another invader, and if they leave the stations details alone, then what is the difference in who owns the planet?
Yes. One person would get the job, but then why would you think they would not be assassinated? Sooner or later, you have so many primuses, that you wonder if anyone is left to run the stations. They could well have forced a vote to remove her. It probably came down to WHO would get promote.
Fredrick/Focht would do as he was told, as that is his job. He is to deal with the military, and leave the rest of running comstar to the first circuit. Fred would have sent assassins against them. Hell, I believe he sent a few after Katrina before she took the throne. Being changed, would this still be his way of dealing with things?
The clans tend to have a bunch of waste in running things except the military. As much as they supposedly hate waste, the 'civilian' side of it is mired in waste. Too many failed warriors with freeborns to do much with them. As Cray said before, they use more people to do things then really needed.
Now is the time to use another of your own sayings back on you. Why doesn't the clans have more ships then the IS? They never lost the ability to make them and warships. Also, without a number printed, this becomes another discussion about the numbers the IS has to send to the front lines.
As you forget that even in the game, other things are needed to be done and money spent on them. You can not just order a million rifles and not pay for them. Well when you have to rebuild after raids and such, as well as pay for all the government workers, as well as keep the military upkeep, without even expanding and such, it eats up the tax money very quickly.
But let's answer a few of those questions.
The moving of the population may well have been done with the merchant fleets as well as the Ravens, moving those people into the IS. This is not saying they didn't have the ships to begin with. Just other clans 'renting' some out. Even a few trials of just using those ships could well have happened.
Partisan actions did occur, but the clans snuffed them out. With the local government, or Comstar, trying to keep peace, it may well have let the clans off the hook to pacify the worlds. For some, Comstar was seen as the government. Then again, 'messages' from Melissa or Hanse could be received and show across the world telling them to behave. Takashi/Theodore in the DC. How does the general public know different? Anyone that would try to suggest otherwise, is just trying to stir up trouble for the masses.
The omni situation is screwed up, as well as the clan tech. I can understand a few runs being flawed and bugged, with techs also not knowing anything about them. Standardizing pods would be a nightmare, as each company would think their design is the only one that works. But after a few years, this would go away.
The anti elemental weapons were left out, not because of something in the game, but TPTB want mechs being the main focus. That doesn't happen when infantry can kill elementals and mechs with such weapons.
So the FTL is ok for being magical, but everything else has to be completely logical? Might want to rethink that. Then again, a PPC is magical in it's working. There really isn't any way to control a bolt of lighting being shot out. It would go to the nearest ground. I know it isn't real lightning, but charge particles, but really. A normal one can't focus well under 90 meters, yet some extra electronics makes it so it can.
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Requiem
03/30/20 05:13 AM
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They didn't go dark. They cut the current news out, and faked the rest
And what happens in three months time when every House realizes that at the time these messages were sent they were behind enemy lines?
As for the Clans only dealing with the Manager – highly unlikely – remember the Clans need every HPG they capture to be used by them to communicate with Hall of Khans or with other units on other planets within their invasion corridor.
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I don't think anyone needs to know you are working with the clans. They are just another invader, and if they leave the stations details alone, then what is the difference in who owns the planet?
What is the first thing every conquer does …. They inform the people, via the planets media, that they are the lords of the planet, they then put the population under a lockdown, they then read them the new rules by which they will be expected to abide …..
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Yes. One person would get the job, but then why would you think they would not be assassinated?
Rome – and Rome’s Emperors.
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Fredrick/Focht would do as he was told, as that is his job.
This is not the Focht I remember reading – he was no longer Fredrick – he was a new person.
Canon has two distinct personalities early in the clan invasion and one later in the invasion.
So which is the real Focht?
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The clans tend to have a bunch of waste in running things except the military.
Administration appears to be a problem …. It is a wonder they ever got anything completed in Clan Home Worlds.
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Why doesn't the clans have more ships then the IS?
Khans are blinkered to everything that are not ‘Mechs, Elementals or Aerospace Fighters ….
Warships are just a waste of resources …. They are hardly ever called upon to fight a Trial of Possession etc …. They are only used during Annihilation or Absorption ….
Also … Clans do not have taxes…..
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The moving of the population may well have been done with the merchant fleets
Who has 8,000 Ships and 25,000 Dropships available to transport the Ghost Bears?
Even renting some out this seems to be a little high.
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Partisan actions did occur, but the clans snuffed them out.
Considering how professional their intelligence operation wing is … and how they dumped the job onto PGCs … this seems very unlikely. Also ComStar does not have access to military / police support to hunt down partisans.
Implausible that they could be able to achieve this – they just do not have the experience or the training to undertake anti partisan activities.
As for stirring up trouble – this is why when a planet is conquered both Fed-Com and DC put 3 -10,000 infantry on planet within a RCT to garrison the planet.
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So the FTL is ok for being magical, but everything else has to be completely logical?
What is the difference between FTL and a Jump-ship?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/30/20 12:24 PM
66.74.60.165
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What did the houses do when they did find out? Not a whole lot, as there is little they could do at the time. Might not understand this, but the IS was fighting the clans. To accuse then try to prosecute Comstar would have really been disasterous for their side. Then it comes down to who would judge them, and enforce punishment. The FC/DC/FRR couldn't do much, other then denounce them. Even with the black boxes, they needed more timely information. At least it wasn't in the story line, but unless comstar was messing with their coms outside of targeted worlds, that speed was needed.
Then who at the station would the clans deal with in order to send messages? The house leaders dealt with them, as well as the higher ups stationed on their world. I seriously doubt they would be talking to the techs that keep up maintenance and such.
What does the social new media have to deal with Comstars people not having to know who was in charge? They did their jobs as normal. No matter who the customer was.
Not sure. People don't always show their true feelings or thoughts. Both could be, yet both could be just a fascade. As the IS runs as a feudal system, they do as their lords tell them. When you don't, you become the traitor that needs to be taken down, if possible. And it has to be done in a way that the masses think is correct. Otherwise revolts and rebellions happen.
I have not heard the clans never use warships in trials. I want to say a few, they did. One big one is the Northwind Highlanders hit on the Jaguars line. The Nova Cats used a warship to take out the Jaguars one. I would think they used them as they did almost every other weapon of war.
Next time you suggest moving a dozen regiments, remember the numbers you gave for moving the Bears population. The combat equipment is much easier then the rest of the personnel.
And again. Why can't the clans have a large amount of ships? It isn't as likely to be as high as what would be needed if they were using something other then scout jumpships with gazelle dropships, but it seems you want them to have just enough to move around clan space and that's it. Talking about nerfing someone. I know you are trying to justify the clans not taking out the FC, but things like this show just how much you want to destroy the game, because they did hurt the FS/FC.
Assuming all the partisans had deep intense military training on how to perform resistance actions? That is NOT something the government wants, as they tend to be used against THEM. And with things like Elementals, the normal hunting rifle doesn't do much. Catching them outside of the armor is much more effective, but there lies an issue. I doubt they would be outside of their bases when out of armor. Trueborns just not wanting to be in masses of freeborns. And IS worlds are very crowded when compare to clan worlds.
And to get more information, how many RCTs were stationed on the border worlds at the time of the invasion?
The difference between FTL and jumpships? Jumpships use a form of FTL to do what they do. It is still unproven to be possible. So until it is, it is magic. Educated guesses say it's possible, but then there are a few things that were possible but wrong. The A bomb did not ignite the air in the world as originally feared.
But maybe concentrate on Gundam wing and such. They use the magical things so much more then BattleTech. Though they still like to destroy their own arguments on why things can't happen in the game, but does in other forms, they still try to make things be somewhat based in reality. Go onto a Star Wars site and explain why the Deathstar and Planet Killer is impossible to make as well as hyperspacing something that big.
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Requiem
03/30/20 09:17 PM
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What did the houses do when they did find out? Not a whole lot, as there is little they could do at the time.
This is not reality, this is TPTB interfering with reality once more – rewrite required!
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to prosecute Comstar would have really been disasterous for their side.
No ….. 50 ComGuard Regiments on the front line as penance is hardly disastrous!
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Then it comes down to who would judge them, and enforce punishment.
All the House Lords will judge and enforce punishment …. reformation …. breaking contact with the clans (once they have extracted all the information they have / or can obtain on the Clans) …. transferring the ComGuard to the front ….. or the complete and immediate Nationalization all HPG stations in the inner sphere to their respective Houses …. Terra will be isolated and quarantined.
During all the years Comstar enforced it’s will wouldn’t every house have devised a plan to take control of all these HPG stations at once and with their own techs to take control of these stations? …. It would be prudent to do so!
And yes they can do this, it is very achievable by all the Houses – what happed to Comstar and their HPGs when the Republic of the Sphere shut them down for good?
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They did their jobs as normal. No matter who the customer was.
Really? ….. sorry no I do not believe this absolutism ……
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I have not heard the clans never use warships in trials.
Jade Falcon touman - the Aegis-class heavy cruiser Janice Hazen - Hellion's AeroSpace Fighter support destroyed the ship
Read the warship lists within all the toumans …….
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Next time you suggest moving a dozen regiments, remember the numbers you gave for moving the Bears population.
How does moving 25,000,000 people either 110 super carriers or 8,000 to 10,000 normal ships equate the the numbers of transporting one to 12 RPG at 5,000 to 10,000 personnel each - especially when during the 4th succession war they were able to transport 100’s of regiments and RCTs during its opening days ….. sorry but this just doesn’t hold water … the DC, Fed-Com, (The now defunct CC) and the FWL should be able to move 350 to 400 Regiments (plus RCTs) in one hit easy – coordinate this amount all at once upon every clan held world in one hit – say good by to the entire Clan armada within a month!
This is the level of transport capabilities I believe in when it come s to the IS’s Jump-ship capabilities circa 3050 ….
And this is why what is written has no meaning …. The story doesn’t have more than about half a dozen units moving any any one time … it is _____________.
PS RCTs can move – look at the time table by the 3rd wave most of the entire Fed-Com / DC military could have been moved to surround and attack the Clans at once!
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Next time you suggest moving a dozen regiments, remember the numbers you gave for moving the Bears population.
Their Inner Sphere ship numbers were given with their bids …. They are a determining factor in the game that cannot change … a constant …. That is unless they cheat the numbers as per the small number of PGCs and how effective they were (where in reality they were so small and with such outdated equipment – their effectiveness should have been very minimal within the IS – The Jade Falcons only had 2 IS Regiments worth – Really? This number is supposed to quell 30 – 40 rebellious worlds at once? Reality please!)
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Assuming all the partisans had deep intense military training on how to perform resistance actions?
How many would be former militia …. How many could be trained by this militia …….
Who said I would be taking elementals outside of their base with hunting rifles?
Inside the base walking around they are just one very large target – this is what a sniper does?
Outside the base traps are the way to go - killboxes.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/30/20 11:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stop playing the game or using canon is required. Make your own game completely, as you are the only one that is screaming it needs to be done. You don't like it, don't play it.
It is very much in a reality that someone commanding the interstellar coms would have the power to avoid being held to justice in the middle of a war. It is very much how a lot of powerful people took control over the masses. The IS can not take the coms systems and run them. Not sure why this is so hard to believe.
You really think Comstar would send the Comguards to fight the clan, instead of wiping out the rulers of the IS? This goes completely against their doctrine of taking them out. That doctrine changed when Walterly was killed. So remember your words about keeping the entities true to their roots. Comstar would not allow any house to tell them what to do. Coms black out with the guards hitting sensitive locations when ever, as the comstar fleet, with warships would maneuver better then the IS fleets and forces. The pony express works only when someone believes it. The HPG network allows them to get ahead of the rebel rousing nuts that are saying that comstar went rogue. Not saying the rulers wouldn't be dead by the third world that news reached. I would think some of the ROM assassins worked for the government for just such an occasion. And back ground checks would go thru comstar's network. Hence the shadow war being so devastating to the FC.
Maybe the question of who would enforce the judgement on comstar wasn't clear enough. NO one, not even combined houses, could hold them to any sort of judgement, and that is even IF they could all agree to something. Might need to reread history, as there is so many instances, of petty warlords getting away with this sort of action. They are minor compared to comstar.
How many of comstars workers refused to serve someone from a nation they didn't like? Such as an FC worker refusing to send someone from the DCs messages or give them ones they received? Even someone who hated Hanse, would still do the job they were hired for, even if it means puking the vile up after they do so.
So why did you say the clans didn't use warships in trials if you knew better? Might need to reread your own posts, as now you are answering the questions you brought up. Is this conversation that taxing that you can't remember what you wrote?
You actually said that you would take out elementals when not in armor. But then everyone has a military grade sniper rifle in their bedrooms with armor piercing rounds to go with it.
Not sure why you think the ship count for the clans would not change as they fought in the IS. Jumpships and even dropships are not part of the bid as much as the mechs and elementals are. They are transports, no more. Unless specifically bid into a fight, which the general invasion bid didn't seem to include that. The entire fleet was set by the Khans of each clan, otherwise, the Wolves would have had more then 2 warships. The numbers reflected the normal ships used by the units that were bid in. They could change as things changed, such as a jumpship having problems or a dropship that is damaged or destroyed. This would be keeping up with the replacement concept of their own trials.
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Requiem
03/31/20 04:51 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
The IS can not take the coms systems and run them. Not sure why this is so hard to believe.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ComStar
“Cornered by the RAF, the Blessed Order was ultimately crushed by the Republic of the Sphere with all of ComStar remaining within the Republic paying the price, forcibly integrated into the Republic, with all their assets absorbed. No longer a truly separate or independent order, ComStar keep their internal organization ranks, but reported directly to Republic leadership.”
So what happened to all the ComStar Facilities outside of the Republic then? Ans – they were absorbed into each House.
If it can occur during Forces Republic it can occur during the Clan’s invasion!
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You really think Comstar would send the Comguards to fight the clan, instead of wiping out the rulers of the IS?
Focht would go along with it …..
It is not about taking them out – it is about reforming them and using them ….
ComStar may fight back however, if done correctly Walterly should have been coxed off of Terra for a meeting with all the Successor Lords – and there she would be put on trial.
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NO one, not even combined houses, could hold them to any sort of judgement,
This is in error …. It can be completed; all it takes is the will to do it …
In the far future when the Republic kills off ComStar what are these works going to do …. Down tools and demand a return to ComStar’s former glory?
Same here – the House Lords should have their own people who can take over HPG stations if necessary – this should be standard operating procedure if necessary – every state should have this ready to go as part of their contingency protocols.
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Not sure why you think the ship count for the clans would not change as they fought in the IS. Jumpships and even dropships are not part of the bid as much as the mechs and elementals are.
And yet Jump-ships and Drop-ships were included in each Clans Invasion TO&E – It does not matter if they were included in the bid or not, what it does indicate is a serious tactical error with regards to these two to the detriment of its military.
Any additional increase in Jump-ships / Drop-ships are 6 month away (minimum);
However, Warships are included in the Bid! So if they are destroyed – they are gone! Permanently ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/31/20 07:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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At the time of the clan invasion, it is written, that after operation scorpion, the houses did take control of the HPGs and couldn't use them. With the time of the RotS, It could well be that part of the return of the HPGs, comstar teaches some how to use them. So for canon, it wasn't possible at that time. The alt could well have each house have their own network but that means coms from other nations would NOT be truthful for any sort of intel. Being 'neutral' gave the writers a way to allow interstellar coms to work and not be blown up with each raid or invasion.
Imagine each house ran their own, and a full scale invasion happens. First thing to go is the coms. No way to transmit a help message if the system is taken down before you could send it.
Walterly would never knowingly leave Terra for a meeting with any house lords, much less all of them.
Set up a live feed to discuss things, but that trap is older then most of the nations on earth. Arrest as soon as they show up.. Any sort of trip would be secret.
As for Focht, he could be replace if needed. Waterly seen something in him to keep him around.
In canon, the CC would not support such a thing. And what you are talking about would very much be set up like WOB/Comstar era. With the RotS, they had Terra and a lot of worlds around them. There would be no interdiction that would do much beside get stomped. And as the Comguards took a beating during the truce battle, I don't think they would be in shape to resist the RotS, even if they wanted to. So different circumstances. Thinking about it, the FWL would probably vote against it, and even the DC might want to avoid it for a while. Walterly was Precentor of Luthien before becoming the primus. The probably would swing a deal with them to keep the coms working in the DC, and for their intel agents, while blocking the FC, once the clan truce was in effect.
I don't think the Comguards would have done better in the field before the truce fight. They did not have the coordination nor the quick time to redeploy, had they been on separate worlds. Even then, they would not send all their units, as some HPGs got raided by pirates, real or scam, so they would keep them to guard those facilities.
There are several units that use certain jumpships and dropship that they do not own, or are part of their unit. They tend to be added into the TO&E, so you understand how they normally got to their battle fields on other worlds. The Falcons would have had serious issues long before they did with the few jumpships they had. You can drop a lot of forces on one world, but not drop a few here, jump, drop a few more, jump and so on.
As for minimum of 6 months away, the whole idea of the reserve clan was to provide assistance what asked for. Which does explain how the Falcons hit more worlds without using the warships as transports.
I don't know if they would deny or grant a request by a clan to allow them to replace a warship. So that one is not going to be answered at this time by me.
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Requiem
04/01/20 07:27 AM
1.158.222.248
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being 'neutral' gave the writers a way to allow interstellar coms to work and not be blown up with each raid or invasion.
So, what happens post Fortress Republic when ComStar no longer exists?
How is anyone going to trust the information they receive?
I stand by my statement if it can happen then it can happen 3050ish
The only way for ComStar to survive a trial of Treason is to give the House Lords Walterly’s head, and they would ….
And if they did nationalize the HPG grid – the grid doesn’t just stop – it keeps on going just under different management!
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Walterly would never knowingly leave Terra for a meeting with any house lords, much less all of them.
It all comes down to the phrasing of the invitation – so yes she would go!
How many times since the Greeks – Romans - Borgia’s and beyond has this worked?
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In canon, the CC would not support such a thing.
And in the alt. the CC are dead
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Walterly was Precentor of Luthien before becoming the primus.
And when she has been proved to be conspiring against the DCMS – actively providing the enemy with information against the DCMS – send in the Spirit Cats / Black Dragon operatives ……
Plus thie introduction of the ComGuards is the first step in remaking the SLDF.
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Clan TO&E JumpShips
This amount in their original TO&E transported their complete Touman – take them out and their ability to move from A to B is reduced.
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using the warships as transports.
They would have used their Warships as transports – every available spot would have a drop-ship.
Warship replacement – do not think so – they bid war-ship X if destroyed X cannot be replaced with Y.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/01/20 12:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is no way to charge comstar with treason. They are not, and never were part of, any of the houses. Even aiding and abetting the enemy couldn't be used. These are for citizens of a nation, not a separate nation.
Walterly and even Focht could be charged with warcrimes, but as a whole, Comstar is as much a different IS nation as the DC is to the FC.
But even war crime would have the issue of an impartial jury, as well as trying to enforce such a thing in 3050 era.
With not being able to trust the coms network is why they had to be 'neutral'. Yet this does not change issues that someone getting the messages, and passing them on, weren't withholding information from the others, as what happened with the ISF with the black Dragon society.
Walterly was not stupid or desperate enough to fall for that one. If they wanted to talk to her, should would be egotistical, and wily enough to have them use the HPGs or some to Terra. I don't think she talked with any of them face to face off Terra during the entire clan invasion. The alt could make that logic mistake, but it would be breaking with her character. Being manipulative, on the border of fanatically thinking she could cause the downfall of both, plays into this, but Scorpion was a snap rage decision.
As stated with the treason charge. Conspiring against the DC wouldn't hold. Comstar was not part of the DC. They could be expelled, like any other corporation in a country that assists a hostile nation, but they are not citizens. Though the DC does have an advantage over the FC in this case. They are not as lenient on certain crimes as the FC is. In the end, operation Scorpion is a problem. Comstar could well have told the house lords that the clans threatened to destroy all coms if they didn't stay out of the conflict, but the re-education camps would have proven that wrong. It does put the point on Focht being able to kill her without facing trial from the first circuit. They would have put him on trial for such, so they can keep Comstar workers from thinking it was ok to do so.
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Requiem
04/01/20 05:14 PM
1.158.222.248
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There is no way to charge comstar with treason.
Yes there is … there is even precedent for this in history - Germany post WW1 …. War Reparations! …. WW2 …. Japan and Germany again ….. Nuremberg Trials …..etc …
It can be done …. It just takes the political will to do so.
It does not matter they are not part of any of Houses – they are still a part of the Inner Sphere and as such they must act accordingly.
There would not be a jury – this would be determined by the Judges on the panel …. Placed on by the House Lords.
Walterly – egotistical yes, wiley yes, she was definitely not stupid but she was extremely vain …..in the event she does not know of the trap her vanity will get her off Terra – and then her fate will be set in stone.
As for the charge against ComStar – “Treason - Conspiring against the Inner Sphere”
Yes she may threaten to use Operation Scorpion – but hopefully there are people who will stop this from occurring – if it does occur, expect ComStar to cease as an Inner Sphere power – retreat into the FWL if Thomas is still in charge (even though there is no way he could have survived the explosion that killed his father).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/01/20 07:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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Those instances were NOT treason. It was the losers of the war being forced to pay for the damages they did. A large chunk of wars has had that.
The best you can do is declare them as the enemy and go from there.
The IS isn't a single entity. That would be like saying the U.S or U.K are responsible for what Russia did in those wars. And I didn't hear so much about Italy and others having the same severity of penalties as the two main ones, yet without their help, the war would not have started.
I don't know where vain comes from, but power hungry is more likely. Looks was not the motivator of her actions but the thought of being more powerful then the SL's first lord.
Now if you are talking about being vain about her vision being the only possible outcome that can happen, then maybe vanity MIGHT be there.
For the alt, which no one but you has any numbers on, having her commit to protecting the IS even before the clans get into the IS would work. Using the wrong terms won't. Treason can only be put against members of a Nation that betrays that nation. The IS, as a whole, were not united in the least.
That would require more then a treaty promising to protect the IS from invaders BEFORE the clans even showed up. And even that isn't treason. As there was no such treaty, they simply sided with the enemy at a horrible cost to the FC/DC. I don't like that part of the story line, but it does allow a more reasonable way of handling the invasion to allow the clans a large chunk to keep inside the IS for further story lines with them.
Treason charges would have been done in the 4th war if it was even possible to accuse them of it. Only the FC would be the plaintiff. The rest would be neutral or even defend Comstar for protecting their assets, including the other houses.
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Requiem
04/02/20 07:31 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
Those instances were NOT treason.
No, they were not … what they were about is holding foreign powers accountable through a judicial / political process.
And isn’t this the aim?
It is ensuring a power is held accountable … when it can be done, and in this scenario it can be done.
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…. Vain ….
The definition includes abilities – doesn’t she believe her abilities, what she can do is far above that of everyone else?
And in this case she is walking around with rose colored glasses.
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The charge of Treason
It can be done, justification can be found in almost anything when you want the political amunition – just look at the reasons the US used to invade the majority of the South American nations to ensure their leader was in power. Plus considering all the evidence the People of CMM will accept the justification.
As for the story line – like many before it and after it – it was not properly explored, it was just glossed over for the next story.
If a subject is brought up is should be expanded upon and brought to its natural conclusion.
Plus it would be delicious revenge for Hanse as he sticks the political knife into her and gives it a good twist.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/02/20 03:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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Espianage would be more likely a charge. Giving information to a entity that they are at war with would be the likely charge.
With this, the WOB issues would destroy Comstar and any chance of being coordinated in pushing back the clans. Other then the forgotten black boxes for this, Jumpships would be the ONLY way to talk to other worlds.
The clans would absolutely seize all stations they had in their area, once WOB started striking back at them, or worse. WOB join the clans to remove the leaders of the IS.
The leaders would not know this. They would find out in the future.
With the calls for the houses to immediately try and retake worlds, as well as not do a peace treaty with the clans, shows a lack of understanding the history of the IS in general.
Funny how the one thing that would and did actually change the borders beyond a could of worlds happens, and it is hated. Well, mixed feelings. More then a few love the clan age, The story wasn't so cared about, just playing with clan tech. SL tech just stinks.
It is SUPPOSED to be better then 3025 tech, but more then a few, wasn't. Kill the enemy before he can strike back is the key, So why would you install pulse weapons that were outranged by the standard one?
As pointed out, only the PPC and LL had extended range, so no ERML, which would have been much better then even the regular LL for the most part.
The streaks were nice, but it does lead to questions on why normal missiles had issues, yet the same size and numbers per ton streaks didn't. The claim all military units had some sort of standard ecm, as well as targeting systems yet could not do much with it is curious.
The fact that the same cockpit used by the clans is the same one used by the IS. No advancement in the most important part of combat. Detection and targeting.
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Requiem
04/03/20 12:29 AM
1.158.222.248
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Espionage? – sorry no they supplied highly sensitive information regarding military units – Treason.
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WoB
WoB – …….er…….wrong era?
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With the calls for the houses to immediately try and retake worlds, as well as not do a peace treaty with the clans, shows a lack of understanding the history of the IS in general.
How? …..I do not understand where this is going.
The story lacks any depth to it …. It is written with little to no thought as what is going on ….. and creates more pot holes than can be reasonably accepted …
The weapon technology just adds insult to injury.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/03/20 01:24 AM
66.74.60.165
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Look up the definition of treason. As a history buff, or so you suggest with all the garbage put on here about past statements, you will find the term does not apply to Comstar.
And had you actually paid attention to the game and it's developing plot line, WOB split off from the main Comstar, due to things being done they did not agree with. Such as the reform. Do you think they would sit back and allow the first circuit to allow the organization to become the lap dog of the IS?
The lack of perceived depth seems to stem from a lack of understanding what is going on. Not that it is all great or well thought out, but then the entire story would not happen had your thought of the SLDF not leaving was done.
And still you say it has little to no thought, yet want to keep using it for the basis for your alt. Where is the well thought out idea for this?
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Requiem
04/03/20 06:34 AM
1.158.222.248
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Treason – a crime of betrayal, in an attempt to bring down a person, state or government – what know the reeds of Runnymede? ….. Subtlety may deceive you; integrity never will.
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Do you think they would sit back and allow the first circuit to allow the organization to become the lap dog of the IS?
Reformation doe not equate to servitude.
They will still be a power but they will have to support the war against the Clans in the fields of Battle.
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the SLDF not leaving was done.
A happenstance that has was created to have no great meaning or understanding – and created a flood of impossibilities that should never have occurred – extremely pitiful plot development.
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Where is the well thought out idea for this?
Where if the efficacy for this …… poorly thought out idea …….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/03/20 12:46 PM
66.74.60.165
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the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
Online definition. I notice you left out one's country. Those two words shuts down your argument.
And the second one that comes up.
Treason definition is - the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family.
Pattern here? One's country or government the offender owe allegiance to. Neither applies to Comstar.
If it smells like BS, then it must be BS. And a lot of the quotes put up sounds like BS. Using fancy words and writing tidbits from dead people doesn't add to the statements made. It suggests smoke and mirrors, to deflect from the discussion.
Servitude means worse then reformation. It means you have given up on the entire idea of what the company means. Once you give in to demands like this, then what is next? Reformation comes as those the control or demand you do things will change it all to fit their ideas of what is supposed to happen. And with more then 5 nations saying only their ideas work, it destroys the company's ability to do anything. The fanatics would definitely kill the first council and take over. So IF they bow to the demands, it would only be for a few months, maybe even days, before a new first circuit comes about the rescinds the agreement. Worse, it could very well cause Comstar to just take over areas they are in. That means all those worlds you would leave undefended by sending everything towards the clans would become protectorates of the newly reformed Comstar. And I don't think the zealots would be concerned about taking out jumpships to slow the spread of information, as the HPG network wouldn't. They have the ability to make them, so they would have more control, as they would slowly become those that control interstellar transportation.
The clans would be the only real threat to them at this point.
The Jihad would have started earlier, though probably not nearly as planned out as the later one.
No great meaning or understanding? I can see where you missed understanding why it did or had to happen. It had far more then you seem to really comprehend, but yet refuse to actually learn why.
But again, twisting the sentence by not including all of it shows a lack of understanding things. Here is the full sentence.
Not that it is all great or well thought out, but then the entire story would not happen had your thought of the SLDF not leaving was done.
See the part where is said the entire story would not happen if you went along the SLDF not leaving.
Bashing canon is the only thing you have to talk about. Not the alt, but trying to get others to side with you yet the alt isn't better when it is based on the very BS you say canon is wrong on.
I agree. Poorly thought out idea... on using the fatally flawed canon as the basis for the alt. That is poorly thought out. Make your own universe and do all those calculations that canon has missed, including all those numbers and such, and then present it. Until you do, this is nothing but ripping on the developers.
This entire alt concept needs to end, until it stops the canon is wrong. It should be like others saying they went off in this direction and not saying the game most play, is wrong and only my vision is right.
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Requiem
04/03/20 05:21 PM
1.158.222.248
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Ones Country equates to Ones Inner Sphere – this is a war between those within the Inner Sphere Versus those who are from beyond the Inner Sphere …..
ComStar is a part of every state in the Inner Sphere …. By their actions they have jeopardized the security of the Inner Sphere - by its actions have sided with enemy of those who they provide an essential military service (Communication) - Treason charge stands.
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Servitude means worse then reformation.
The reformation does not destroy the companies core identity – they will still operate the HPG network – however it will mean that they will have to give up on the idea of turning the IS into a single Blakean Theocracy. They (ComStar) will have to become a true part of the Inner Sphere – they will be forced to open the library doors to all of their hidden information to help all of the inner sphere..
This is the only way for ComStar to survive long term!
Otherwise Comstar will fall sooner of later - as this is what is going to happen in the future when the Republic finally kills them off for good!
If any adepts don’t want to go along with the program then break away and form the WoB or start a civil war – but don’t expect any assistance from the FWL if Thomas died in the explosion that killed his father – so they just disappear to the missing five worlds (that is if they even know of there existence – which is highly unlikely.
However, for those that see the need for reformation as well as the need of getting involved in the war they will accept the reformation.
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Make your own universe and do all those calculations that canon has missed, including all those numbers and such, and then present it.
I am only on drat 100 or thereabout – the list of changes that need to be included and then flow through time are extremely vast – fixing the clans on its own is a complex set of decisions.
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This entire alt concept needs to end, until it stops the canon is wrong. It should be like others saying they went off in this direction and not saying the game most play, is wrong and only my vision is right.
Really?
Then what happens to the ideas regarding ….
Clan PGS revolting against their masters …
Fenrir forces ….
Partisan / spy agencies in the clans rear ….
Attacking the Clans rear ….
Creating a massive wall of forces and pillboxes in front of the Clans’ advancing troops …
Psy-ops teams … and the clans non-warriors
The idea that the IS designed a playbook to fight the Clans
The idea that the Infantry were supplied with an anti-elemental weapon system – portable and deadly …..
The idea that the ID did manufacture Clan Weapons tech as the did have the capability of doing so …
The idea that once the clans came with their omnis all single weapon mechs would over time become obsolete …. Thus every single weapons mech would become obsolete …
The idea the IS should have a navy starting 3040 otherwise you end up in a Nuclear war post Turtle Bay …
Camelot Command and its strategic importance early within the war …
The issues with sibkos and logistics …..
The issues with regards to mass black box manufacturing – time to get them to the front ….
The issue that if the clans did have missives every 5 years from the dragoons / or a second unit they sent in every five years, as from 3020, how would they react to this news
The idea of where all the leviathans came from to transport whole clan populations to the inner sphere …
The idea of how long it took to even establish the exodus route for HPG communication as well as establishing a Logistics fleet necessary to ensure the invasion was well stocked – the idea that prior to the invasion every clan that was chosen for the invasion should have established a colony within the deep periphery to assist with logistics – ammunition spare parts,sibko training facilities, Jumpship and dropship repair facilities etc to cut down on the time between clan space and the IS
As well as a myriad of other issues that should have been considered …….
As is the invasion writing has too many plot holes going no where – the time required to think everyone trough is vast …. And will take time
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/03/20 09:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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The IS was never one state. Even the original SL, it wasn't. And by that logic, they should have picked sides in all of the wars fought within the IS. So that logic doesn't work
The reason WOB turned on Focht was that he DID turn his back on the Blakean Theocracy. That is part of the religious concepts for the workers. Blake, not any other sort of deity or saint is why the equipment worked.
And with the logic that just because they work and live in the IS means they must support and defend it is like saying China and Russia are part of Asia, so they need to support and defend all the other countries there. It just does not work that way. Using Terra right now would be even more to the point.
Oh? So the numbers are vast so that means the developers should have been wasting money on making up every last thing, so someone can say this or that is wrong, and they should have focused on making something people play? Circular logic is the problem here. One or the other. They are out to make money. So just like every other Sci Fi game, they ignored the actual economy. Even when they were being over run, countries in all wars still had to keep the infrastructure of their country going. So that means you can not spend every last penny on the military. You might win a battle or two, but lose the war.
The same thing that has happened with the things that weren't your ideas. Most people ignore it to play the game, and those that are your idea, needs to do all the background garbage in order to say yours is the only viable alternative.
No argument that canon has a bunch of issues, but I have yet to see someone make their own version with all the numbers to even start to show where it went wrong. You say they have all these resources, which is fine for your game. But to say the canon version is wrong, as it does not support your idea?
This is simple. Tell what you are doing, and don't pull the canon is wrong. 'I think this could be improved' start, middle and ending removes issues. My view is the only one doesn't work. I've been the only one stupid enough to try and answer the questions you claim to have, and yet refuse to do more then say it doesn't happen in my universe.
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Requiem
04/04/20 02:42 AM
1.158.222.248
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Comstar is both a separate entity and at the same time a part of the wider Inner Sphere Community – they have a social contract with all the Inner Sphere Houses – in violating this with the Clans their “Board of Officers” are guilty of Treason.
Example Company incorporate in one country has a subsidy in a third world country – that subsidy then causes an environmental catastrophe – they can sue that company and hold its members accountable – Treason Charges remain!
Comstar does have a social contract with all the Inner Sphere Houses – thus when found guilty of Treason they have but two choices
1. Face total destruction as every house takes all of their HPGs.
2. Reformation and supporting the War.
And yes it does work that way.
The Economy
As there are no records – this point cannot be made - the war of 3039 becomes a farce as the CC have no real economy they are down to next to no forces and the majority of their most important worlds are now in the hands of either the FWL of the FS.
Also considering the cost of a single warship you have got to wonder where them money came for these - and yet hey presto – there they are.
Numbers – Jumpships – no that can’t be done because they do not have the Jumpships?
Why then?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
04/04/20 09:53 AM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
Comstar does have a social contract with all the Inner Sphere Houses – thus when found guilty of Treason they have but two choices
1. Face total destruction as every house takes all of their HPGs.
2. Reformation and supporting the War.
And yes it does work that way.
No, it doesn't work that way.
Depending on the era, ComStar has a House-scale military, one that fought 7 Clans to a standstill when no House could do that. ComStar isn't a simple telephone company with a cult on the side that can be arrested and assets seized. It's the Inner Sphere's largest bank that supplies the universal currency to everyone. Entire planets have telecommunications and postal services based on ComStar. Throughout its existence, ComStar has had planets of its own, including the heavily defended, heavily industrialized Terra. And during the bad years after Operation Scorpion it had a House willing to shelter and protect it.
When Hanse Davion tried to wage a shadow war with ComStar after the 4th Succession War, he lost. ComStar was the saintly, innocent organization that he couldn't confront in public without looking like a loon. Until Operation Scorpion or, arguably, the Jihad, ComStar was one of the most popular organizations in the Inner Sphere.
After Operation Scorpion, ComStar still managed to recover its standing with the public (and HPGs) by purging the religious nutso element (The Schism), forgiving some House debt, and passing around Star League technology (like helping Davion get its WarShip program off the ground). ComStar's standing with the public was so high that the religious nutso element, the Word of Blake, survived and thrived when sheltered in Marik.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/04/20 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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The wider community of the IS?
The very community that used nukes like gun ammo? Killed millions for the hell of it? Constantly raid and attack each other?
Again. There is not a single state that is the IS. And with this, the DC, especially Chandy, should be held up on treason for selling to the enemy. This goes for all that have traded with the clans. This is treason, but not against the IS, but against the individual houses they belong to.
Have you lost touch with the way things happen in the world? A company has an issue in a country not of it's origin, and it is treason when they have an issue outside of this? It wasn't treason when Shell oil had that big spill back in the 70-80 era. And they still haven't paid up on it. And that was off Alaska, while Shell being a U.S company. Even having one of the company execs kill someone in a foreign nation, isn't treason. It is murder.
The 'continents' of the world aren't one nation. The EU, doesn't have all European countries that are part of it, so someone outside of it, could not be charged with treason. Check your history. Germany and Japan were not charged with treason when they started WWII.
You can not make up the numbers to show an economy of a single company? So how is it, your numbers are better thought out then the developers? You have no numbers, so throwing things against the wall and changing them when it suits you sounds.... like some of canon. And yet this is better how? Other then being YOUR idea?
This is fine for you universe. It is not fine to use these numbers that don't exist to say the canon numbers are absolutely wrong. Pull a rabbit out of a different hat.
The jumpship statement I would assume means the CC not losing the 4th war, if the clans had invaded at that point. With a quick pull out of troops to send to the clan front, the CC would have time to retake suddenly under garrisoned worlds, as well as some of the FS worlds that were left weak from using the forces to invade, then move to the clan front. As the FWL would be free to hit, they would be pulling defenders from other worlds. So it wouldn't be just the CC. And if it happened during the interdiction?
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Requiem
04/04/20 07:10 PM
1.158.222.248
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Sorry but I find this in error – Any company MUST adhere the laws that it operates within – ComStar is NOT exempt from legal prosecution if it is found to be conducting illegal activities within any of its states that it operates.
Aguinda v. ChevronTexaco (2011) – Chevon was held responsible for massive environmental damagae.
Exxon – Dec 2009 – paid the punitive damages (as per the Court Case)
Nuremberg Court - crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and conspiracy to commit any of the foregoing crimes
Japan - refer wiki for this
ComStar does not have carte blanche to do anything it wants and just walk away fro m the consequences, just because of their size.
If the Draconis Combine’s (as well as the Federated Commonwalth) spy organization can obtain definitive evidence that Watkerly, and by consequence ComStar, did provide the Clans with updated DCMS military information – there will be a reckoning!
The same argument can be provided for the Federated Commonwealth.
Publically (Trial) is the most devastating act – to publicly rebuke them (Walterly in particular) for their actions.
The Draconis Combines’s courts are an extension of the Government – if the Government has the will to start this action then it WILL proceed.
Politically, for the first time in a very long time, they have the chance to get their revenge upon ComStar publically – I doubt either Hanse or Theodore would give up the chance to publicly rebuke ComStar.
Just as ComStar can hold the States to account via an interdiction – the states can hold ComStar to account with Nationalization (Castro and Cuba).
Sorry but the I do not find the information provided to be of such weight as to change my mind – I still find it highly credible that ComStar can be put on trial for its actions.
They must be held accountable for their actions!
Edited by Requiem (04/04/20 07:14 PM)
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Karagin
04/04/20 07:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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So jumping, if you are going to make an alternate version of things you can't just ignore factors that happen in the real setting, the best alternate histories don't just ignore details, they adjust them to fit the new histories. A big example, are some of the works by Harry Turtledove, he doesn't ignore details of history, he adjusts them to fit his new version. ComStar is still going to be ComStar, and what changes you make need to make sense.
I am not changing the WoB overall in my alternate take on things, I am changing the amount of damage they do longer-term and removing the POST Jihad silliness of the ROTS and the whole "Dark Age" mess. At the same time, I am trying to not turn this into a Traveller-Esque universe either.
All the stuff Cray said about ComStar has to be taken into account, maybe the thing that prevents them from facing the Clans, is that they are bogged down fighting House Laio or still playing Shadow Wars with the Fed-Com or that they feel they don't need to fight the Clans since it's not their problem, they hold Terra and can dig-in there. Those changes only remove certain things, but a battle similar to Tukayyid could still happen to slow the Clans and cause them to halt the fighting for the same or equal amount of time. ComStar's little divorce could still happen has some feel the need to punish the Inner Sphere for not embracing the Clans as the Star League Reborn. Nothing is forgotten, just changed to fit the new outcomes.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/04/20 09:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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Out of all of those lawsuits, how many were for treason? Not a single one. You can NOT charge someone for treason if they are not a citizen of your nation.
The IS is NOT a nation. Just as earth is not a nation. Espianage is the most likely term to be used, as they are taking state secrets from another and giving them to an enemy.
Might want to recheck the Exxon lawsuit. They never paid the entire money owed to all. The excuse is what the rich love to use to avoid paying anything. It will create an economic hardship for the company. So if they had payed the 5 billion dollars straight up, they would not have made 12 billion for that quarter. They would only have made 7 billion. That is just too much of a hardship for them to deal with, and the government allows it.
Comstar can do what it wants to a limit. Just like any company that is across borders. What is bad for one country, like pollution, is great for another, as they get the product without having to deal with it themselves. Cheap labor is the big one for this. Build in horribly poor countries and sell in the richest. Make more money with less output.
You don't hear the buyers of autos when they pay less for a foreign made vehicle then the expensive ones made in the country, especially when the foreign ones last longer.
As much as I hate it, the truth doesn't always win out. With the internet today, lies spread faster and are harder to counter, when people believe the first things out. And with controlling the coms, that sort of manipulation you love about Katherine is their master piece of dealing with accusations. Not even going into the illegal things like subliminal ads, but just spinning the truth like politicians love to do. ALL sides are corrupt. The ones that wins either has the money, or lies better then the other.
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Requiem
04/05/20 06:31 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
You can NOT charge someone for treason if they are not a citizen of your nation.
Jacobites and the Irish? - depends on how you look at it.
In understanding how far a country may go read Iva Toguri D’Aquino – Tokyo Rose – was a US Citizen / republican / degree in Zoology – went to visit a sick relative in Japan – Pearl Harbor – was not allowed to return to the US – made an individual without a country by US state department – had to live had to work for Radio Tokyo – never renounced her US citizenship (despite massive pressure to do so) - never said one word against America on her radio show – even smuggled food to POWs – on returning to USA - arrested – Tried for Treason (when she was still technically not a US citizen) – found guilty on one minor charge – spent 6 years in jail – released – investigation found the prosecutors witnesses were coached for months on what to say – Presidential Pardon (and at this stage was once more a US citizen)
And yet a US Amy pilot who defected to the Nazis in 1944 – Martin James Monti?
Comstar - Google? How many litigations and in how many countries? And how many other internet companies are facing litigation in other countries …..
This is where I still asset the charge of Treason …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
04/05/20 12:25 PM
70.118.172.64
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IF the person is a spy and caught and IS a citizen of the nation they are spying on, then yes treason can be applied and normally is, however, IF the spy that is caught is not a citizen of the said nation then no treason isn't applied, they normally get shot outright depending on the country, or they end up in the hands of the counter-intelligence group and what damage they have done is normally beaten out of them.
If someone defects, yes, that is treason, but only if they go back to their home nation.
As for the litigations, anyone can sue someone and do so in other countries as well; it doesn't mean you will win in all of them, and getting a verdict from say Spain to hold water in Chile is a lot harder then you think. Similar examples all the folks who have sued Saudi Arabia or Lybia for actions taken by their citizens, sure the folks suing won, but no monies or restitution have been forthcoming from either of those nations to the people who won the verdict.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/05/20 12:33 PM
66.74.60.165
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Where in that response does it say her citizenship was revoked? It says she never renounced it.
And as said with the conviction, was not guilty of treason, but falsely accused and convicted.
Circumstances in this are a problem. After the first strike, the country went into a very xenophobic idealism, As there seemed to be no real charge behind it, there is no basis for treason. Just a fraudulent charge that stuck due to this issue. This is more of an abuse of someone in power with a grudge, then a real charge. Sadly the person suffered for it.
Now litigation and treason are not the same thing. There are a lot of crimes you can be convicted of, but unless you are a citizen and have done something to harm the country you are a citizen of, then treason is not one of them. And the little sidestep of saying selling, or providing a product that is legal before a conflict isn't really one of them. Selling food is one such instance.
But this is legality terms defined.
Comstar worked in the IS, much like the U.N. but not a citizen of any one state. In fact, their control of Terra has them as a separate nation on its own, that is running a service to all, with supposedly being neutral. Sounds like the telecommunications companies of today.
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Cray
04/05/20 01:44 PM
71.47.151.234
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Quote:
Comstar worked in the IS, much like the U.N. but not a citizen of any one state. In fact, their control of Terra has them as a separate nation on its own, that is running a service to all, with supposedly being neutral.
Yep. In the 2780s, each House recognized ComStar as a sovereign, neutral entity. They halted their First Succession War advances on Terra. The Inner Sphere always played hands off with ComStar and when they interfered, they were blacked out in the middle of war time. By the 31st Century, the Inner Sphere really treated ComStar as neutral and inviolate.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
04/05/20 03:29 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Quote:
Comstar worked in the IS, much like the U.N. but not a citizen of any one state. In fact, their control of Terra has them as a separate nation on its own, that is running a service to all, with supposedly being neutral.
Yep. In the 2780s, each House recognized ComStar as a sovereign, neutral entity. They halted their First Succession War advances on Terra. The Inner Sphere always played hands off with ComStar and when they interfered, they were blacked out in the middle of war time. By the 31st Century, the Inner Sphere really treated ComStar as neutral and inviolate.
Well as neutral as they could considering many in the House governments knew ComStar wasn't actually "netural" in the true sense of the words meaning....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/05/20 04:49 PM
1.158.222.248
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Karagin
Can you please read her story!
That is she was NEVER a spy – the US State department made her a NON-Citizen – the witnesses for the prosecution were coached what to say (They perjured themselves) just because they wanted to convict her because there was never any evidence of any wrongdoing – so they put an innocent person in prison – and only when the truth came out and she received a Presidential Pardon was her citizenship returned.
Have you looked at the common trends of many of these court cases occurring around the world?
Also the underlying principle – an electronic media company MUST obey the laws of the county it operates within? If you are world-wide then it is every country – if you are Inner Sphere wide then it is the laws of every House that you must obey – you must obey the laws (and respect the culture) of every country you enter into!
Comstar is within every Great House – ComStar MUST obey the laws (and cultures) of ever House it operates within – yes in the past they have pushed their weight around to flout this, case in point when the Combine’s Coordinator’s sister joined and it almost came to a Mech drop on the Capitol.
Yet this time they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar – for the first time the DC has the power to publically humiliate them, can anyone really say they wouldn’t?
Ghostrider,
Again read her story – how hard is it to use a search engine?
The State Department refused to certify her citizenship in 1942 – thus making her stateless – a person with no citizenship to any country!
The extent countries and individuals will go to gain a conviction is the point – Politically they needed her to be found guilty when she should have been lauded as a hero!
For the first time ComStar can be brought to account for their actions publically!
Being literal – Understand the underlying principle.
The U.N. is a body of states who use this setting as a means to discuss – they are in no way similar to the Comstar – Plus their military can be brought before the Hague Courts if they were found to have committed a crime!
Cray,
Yes, I agree they did agree Comstar is a sovereign and neutral country.
However being inviolate – sorry no I do not agree even countries can be brought before the court where one country sues another due to its actions - for example fishing, energy (sea rig location) and the revenue it generates …..
Not even Churches are beyond the rule of law – Spotlight!
Comstar was caught – they will face the full force of the law – their position of being inviolate was provided with the condition they would never take one states side – they would remain Neutral.
That Neutrality is broken – thus their inviolate position is also broken!
For the first time the two largest realms have them dead to rights – they are engaged in war against an unknown enemy from beyond the starts and Comstar was found supplying them with their military secrets – they have made their inviolate state meaningless – they have taken a side – they will be raked over the coals for their actions.
Even if they have to establish a whole new court to do so!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
04/05/20 05:50 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Karagin
Can you please read her story!
That is she was NEVER a spy – the US State department made her a NON-Citizen – the witnesses for the prosecution were coached what to say (They perjured themselves) just because they wanted to convict her because there was never any evidence of any wrongdoing – so they put an innocent person in prison – and only when the truth came out and she received a Presidential Pardon was her citizenship returned.
Have you looked at the common trends of many of these court cases occurring around the world?
Also the underlying principle – an electronic media company MUST obey the laws of the county it operates within? If you are world-wide then it is every country – if you are Inner Sphere wide then it is the laws of every House that you must obey – you must obey the laws (and respect the culture) of every country you enter into!
Comstar is within every Great House – ComStar MUST obey the laws (and cultures) of ever House it operates within – yes in the past they have pushed their weight around to flout this, case in point when the Combine’s Coordinator’s sister joined and it almost came to a Mech drop on the Capitol.
Yet this time they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar – for the first time the DC has the power to publically humiliate them, can anyone really say they wouldn’t?
She was NOT a loyal citizen and thus falls into the level of spy at best or traitor at worst. Regardless the government can rule you a non-citizen and thus it's up to you to prove otherwise. And here is a catch, this is very common in all countries. You are still trying to apply real-world to a fictional game where the setting can be adjusted to make anything happen or not happen.
ComStar DOES NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THE LAWS of their host nations, they have their compounds which are similar to embassies, thus the ComStar personnel have immunity from ALL local laws. That is how things work in real life.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/05/20 06:09 PM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
She was NOT a loyal citizen and thus falls into the level of spy at best or traitor at worst.
This shows that you have not read her story!
She NEVER renounced her citizenship;
She NEVER said anything against America – despite the incredible pressure placed upon her:
She DID smuggle food to POWs held in Japan;
Her only crime was visiting a sick relative in a foreign country at the wrong time, and being Japanese..
Quote:
they have their compounds which are similar to embassies
Sorry No. Where is it written they are embassies and their people have diplomatic immunity?
Plus even with Diplomatic immunity they are not above the law – Persona non Grata – and the people of country are told why?
and in certain cases diplomatic immunity has been waived thus allowing the diplomat to be held for trial ….. case in point Archbishops (spotlight once again)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/06/20 02:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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The media having to obey the countries laws and orders. That's a good one. The would be government controlled media, and there are more then a few that tell the public about the bad behavior of the ruler. That is something the rules would say is against the law, yet it is being truthful, most of the time.
Well the governments will use corrupt liars to a point. More then a few don't even bother with a trial. They just execute the person. In this case, the person could or should have sued those that pushed for her conviction, as well as made sure the liars went to jail.
Now with the first time they could be actually charged, what happened? The IS seized the HPGs and found out they could not run it. Then Focht did a major change to the way things go, and got Comstar back on track to be trusted, as much as you could be with what happened.
The fact Walterly did something she could not blame on other or hide is what finally did it.
Comstar was not a native company to any one of the IS nations, yet could function in all of them without issues? And the U.N. doesn't do this? Well most countries the U.N. could operate in without issues.
They keep the coms working and ignore local events, or are supposed to. They tend to provide natural disaster relief, even before the government does, though this is circumstantial. They are used to mediate disputes between the states, as well as being the banker and backer of deals such as hired mercs and such. So yeah. Comstar did do more then the U.N. does.
As it stands, you can not charge Comstar with treason. Not sure why this isn't setting in. The definition and use does not fit the parameters of Comstar. They are a separate nation. There are other charges that fit, but not treason.
Missing words in sentences again, I see.
they have their compounds which are similar to embassies.
See that simple word similar. It does not say they have embassies. It says their compounds are similar to.
Diplomatic immunity is there for a lot of cases. With Comstar, they will choose to give up the person for trial or not. It will be decided in their 'courts' first. There is more then a few cases going on, that someone committed a crime in another country, yet will have to be trial in absence. And best look at the churches again. More then a few were accused of horrible behavior, but never went to trial. The churches just moved them to another location.
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Requiem
04/06/20 05:53 PM
1.158.222.248
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For my game I am going to go down the following line …..
Quote:
ComStar Reformation
The original agreement between ComStar and the Houses, ComStar – Comstar will be allowed to exist and they will have control over the HPG net. However, with one condition, they will not betray the secrets of their clients and the Great Houses to their enemies – Due to the overwhelming evidence against ComStar – supplying information to the enemy of the People of the Inner Sphere – they will be required to be punished.
ComStar will survive, however a backroom deal will be made between the existing First Circuit and the House Lords. They will still run the HPG net – they will still conduct all their Humanitarian Issues
However ….
The Primary Core belief in that - The cataclysmic war that would finally allow ComStar to achieve its ultimate goal – will be recognized as a false belief, it never come to be!
Thus all the destruction of an advancement in Inner Sphere knowledge / scientists etc. must no longer be allowed to continue. ROM will no longer be allowed to assassinate these people – they will no longer be allowed to destroy any Star League technological (archeology) finds etc
The hidden libraries will therefore be open to all the Inner Sphere for the first time – everything that was lost and hidden will be provided to the Inner Sphere.
The Removal of their Monastic robes for business suits.
Primus Myndo Waterly, will be sacrificed – Excommunication – permanent house arrest upon Terra by ComGuard. In addition, those minor Adepts that assisted policies in providing the Clans with sensitive information will suffer her fate.
ComGuard, will have to actively be a part of the Inner Sphere Community – they will have to support Fed-Com, FRR, DC in combat against the invading Clans. Their Jumpships as well as their warships will also be used to assist the Inner Sphere.
The people of the Inner Sphere
Shock; Loss in faith; Horror that they maintained the complete knowledge of the Star League and refused to help (especially where it comes to medical issues)
To regain the faith of the people of the Inner Sphere will require decades of hard work.
ComGuard
Remain though they will now have to step up and become what the SLDF once was – Focht will be sent to the front Line as their C.O.
ComStar
One of the First Circuit’s Precentors will become the new Primus.
Word of Blake
A splinter group will break from Costar – however they will not have the support of the FWL (as per canon) – thus they will become a wandering group of terrorists.
Unknown if the hidden five worlds will come into this.
One of their first actions could be to rescue Primus Myndo Waterly from her excommunication., where they see her as the first Primus in exile.
Even some of the more devote ComGuard units could disappear and reappear within the new Word of Blake.
(Note I see Word of Blake as a terrorist unit that has the appearance of the old Templar – That is they see themselves as Holy Knights whose mission is to liberate Holy Terra from the false belief and restore Holy ComStar to the true way. They may also try to stop the dissemination of knowledge – continue the assassination of key Inner Sphere scientists etc. (attempting to keep to Comstar’s old ways!))
They should be allowed to pop up when you least expect them.
Why, Comstar cannot be allowed to exist under its old ways, if allowed to continue with its old ways it will self destruct sooner or later. This way the refored ComStar can continue long into the future and can become a true beacon of light for the people of the Inner Sphere – once they have paid their penance!
Quote:
Comstar was not a native company to any one of the IS nations, yet could function in all of them without issues? And the U.N. doesn't do this?
Since when did the U.N. start operating as a business? … as stated Comstar does do more than the U.N.
Quote:
As it stands, you can not charge Comstar with treason.
Sorry but I believe I can – I believe there is more than enough evidence within the worlds legal framework to support this.
Quote:
It will be decided in their 'courts' first.
And why would the House Lords of the DC or the FC give up their chance at getting revenge?
Primus Myndo Waterly can be lured out of her lair on Terra – and once this occurs she will undergo the indignity of a Trial.
Frankly the Precentors will be glad to be rid of her, and many would see this as an opportunity to take Cromstar from their existing structure to a more modern organization …. Under their leadership as Primus.
Quote:
And best look at the churches again. More then a few were accused of horrible behavior, but never went to trial.
Third highest ranked within the Catholic Church is currently incarcerated, an Archbishop.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/06/20 06:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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So the IS will over look Focht being part of the information change with the clans?
What happens to Terra, as WOB takes it before Walterly orders Operation Scorpion? Does WOB get kicked off, do they just leave, or do they retain control (thru blackmail and such)?
Actually, I don't know if the U.N has businesses, but the reference was for being able to operate, including running supplies and having bases in, other countries without much scrutiny. The Vatican might fit into this as well. They are thought to remain neutral and not break laws...
Comstar would not allow even the lowest recruit to face any IS courts until they check out what happened. This is not about the aiding the clans, but say a night on the town and one of the workers gets drunk and runs someone over. They flee to the Comstar compound. The higher ups in Comstar would judge if they are to be turned over or not.
The third in ranking finally got caught and couldn't cover for it. There are more then a few lower in the structure that have been habitual with their crimes, and only get moved around.
For the archbishop, I would think they did something to one of the rich families or a politician. Might even have been someone with close ties to the pope or the other two higher. It may well have been a sacrificial lamb to try to placate the masses.
Oh yeah. One big thing left out of the statement above.
WHEN does this go into effect?
This does matter if you try to keep anything close to canon.
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Requiem
04/07/20 06:23 AM
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So the IS will over look Focht being part of the information change with the clans?
Possibly – depends on evidence collected – and the need for an experienced CO for the ComGuard ,,,,
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Terra
Still controlled by ComStar
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Does WOB get kicked off, do they just leave
Escape in the dead of night.
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Comstar would not allow even the lowest recruit to face any IS courts until they check out what happened.
Depends upon the back room deal with the House Lords – as well as the political infighting to get the top job.
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WHEN does this go into effect?
In what canon would call the year of peace.- at the start.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/07/20 12:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Your concept, so that is your answer. Does Focht get a pass for being one of those passing on the information, and serving Walterly?
Now. Does the SDS system blueprints get to the IS houses? Or does Comstar keep them quiet?
The 5 hidden worlds comes to mind as well.
Honestly, WOB would be better suited for going back into the fold, but operating like ROM does. Using their position in Comstar to move around and strike from the shadows. They would be far more effective having the information on patrols and such. Having a few places to train their troops outside of the public eye would be necessary, but otherwise, they would be far more effective. Well maybe not all of them. Just enough to keep inside information coming in.
The statement of Comstar not allowing their people to go to trial was for all the crimes they do. It isn't like Comstar is immune to following the laws, it is just wiether or not they will stand trial. Then enforcing the little infractions.
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Requiem
04/07/20 02:59 PM
1.158.222.248
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Does Focht get a pass for being one of those passing on the information, and serving Walterly?
Three options,
First, Kill his character off – have Walterly kill him as traitor;
Second, have the court find him guilty – introduce a new character to take over CO of ComGuard; and
Lastly, make him a whistleblower – when ask to assist he reached out to Loki for assistance.
So, whichever makes for the best story going forward.
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Does the SDS system blueprints get to the IS houses?
Yes, though it will take time for any of the IS Houses to have the resources to build research and build any prototype and then to get it into production.
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The 5 hidden worlds comes to mind as well.
Will no longer exist – or the number will be reduced to one – and will be know by all on the First Circuit – Focht though will be out of the loop on this. Or there could be other options, such as they were previously Wolds within the TH that were saved during the First Succession war by ComGuard – though the remainder of the IS thought they were destroyed, and as such removed them from the maps prematurely.
Have decided to make another change (again)
Thus fitting these worlds into the story of the House IS units sent into the former TH lost 600 systems to scavenge for lost technology as well as a new WoB ascendancy story to be incorporated into the growing number of stories within the IS.
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Honestly, WOB would be better suited for going back into the fold, but operating like ROM does.
And yet another change to the story …(again)
Having a roving band of pirates who want revenge on the IS as well as conquering Terra and being a counter revolutionary force to ComStars reformation measures would make the story more interesting.
Waterly could be privy to knowledge that only the Primis was privy to know – the location of all the other “Camelot Command Stations” hidden throughout the stars. It would make more sense than the five hidden worlds.
Previous Primus’ used these stations to build the true “Operation Scorpion” in the final days of the Houses these stations were to be used by the ComGuard to deliver the coup de main upon the remaining IS forces to allow the for their eventual ascendance in bring about the return of the Star League (under their Blake-ian theocracy.)
Though now will be used to house her WoB Templar forces, throughout the IS, like a hidden sword over every Houses head waiting to fall.
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It isn't like Comstar is immune to following the laws, it is just wiether or not they will stand trial. Then enforcing the little infractions.
In any reformation you will need to purge the organization – getting rid of Waterly’s flunkies and at the same time using their excommunication as an object lesson for the remaining ComStar personnel has its merits.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/08/20 04:38 PM
1.158.222.248
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What is the numbers for their complete fleet?
The numbers within each Clan’s Bid IS the number they allotted for the invasion of the Inner sphere. Yes they do have more – however this is outside the OZ.
As for the 9 months food - 6 month travel time there and back plus 3 months just in case of any mishap in getting to them with their logistical requirements for each of the HPG stations.
It comes back to how you view the logistics – one large fleet, every six months, representing the totality of the Clans transport capabilities – or many small fleets sent by an individual Clan.
In addition to the security Naval force that would be operating along the Exodus Road – to keep these warships out there longer they will require resupplying, if they can get it from the HPG stations it will allow them a greater degree of tactical flexibility.
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I don't think fighter pilots were numerous in the clans.
Look at the bid numbers as well as Touman for each Clan.
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they built some during the invasion.
This would mean that for a good part of the invasion the Clan’s invading forces were NOT able to communicate with the Hall of Khans without sending a ship into the Deep Periphery with a pre-recorded message.
Thus any information the Hall of Khans receives will be out of date – depending on the time it takes the ship to receive the message and travel into the deep periphery to send the message.
It will also mean the logistics requirement for each Clan when requested would also be out of date as per when sent – one key battle, where the Clan receives numerous casualties and they could be more that a few months without adequate replacement numbers.
This scenario is fraught with problems for any invading Clan as to Logistics and replacement personnel – without massive stockpiles hidden within the Deep Periphery and the establishment of multiple Sibko training facilities.
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The Dragons had a station that was a quick build, as it moved with them when they changed employers.
The mobile Hephaestus station – ‘It was mobile in the sense that it could be disassembled into modules which had K-F Booms and could be moved via JumpShip like regular DropShips with Docking Collars, to be re-assembled at the destination site.”
If the Dragoons had access to such a facility then this is in all probability a similar design to what the Clans used for their HPG stations, as well as their Jump-ship / Warship repair yards.
Over time the IS should have also been able to manufacture these as well - being able to – “It could also service all of the Dragoons' DropShips, aerospace fighters, 'Mechs and support vehicles and possessed sophisticated surveillance and communication equipment.” ….. gives it a unique flexibility within any combat arena.
So add it to the list of tech than should have but never was properly utilized.
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And I agree. If you have the resources, you would have some fighters around each station. But that would be splitting your forces, which really doesn't count here. The clans bid what they did. Anything behind the lines is not part of it.
In this particular case – every clan would have been assigned an equal number of stations to man and maintain – sharing the load is also part of the Clans doctrine as seen within the Wolverines book when they found the lost bunker and all its contents.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/08/20 06:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Again, the wording of what is bid and what can be taken with you is key here.
You bid this into the fight. It doesn't mean you can't have more in the area. As stated with the challenge, the attacker can bring in forces equaled to their last bid with shame and surrender of things to do so. Those forces are not shipped in when called on. They are waiting near the battlefield.
And yes. This can be abused, with having those 'defense' units in the way of incoming enemy.
Again. Read all of it before trying to complain about things that are in that paragraph. They build some during the invasion as they had a steady stream of ships doing things, these ships could well have been the coms relays. Even their warships had some, so they could be used while the station was being built. It isn't like they were used for much else in the homeworld area.
Not sure why you think the battle reports went to the clan homeworlds as the clan Khans were with their troops. Supply orders would be the main thing they would have to contact home for. Battle orders would go from the khans to the troops. Maybe 3 weeks max if they didn't have working HPG. They did so when they had to replace Leo Showers, but again. That was after the invasion was going.
The modular station would not have gone with the Dragoons if it was the only one available. I would also thing the Bears brought a few with them.
When asking about the number of stations, is that just space based ones?
Or does that mean ground based ones as well?
There would be a difference depending on supply routes. Some many have to have a few extra as the systems near by might require routing that goes out a few planets.
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Requiem
04/09/20 03:15 AM
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the wording of what is bid and what can be taken with you is key here. You bid this into the fight. It doesn't mean you can't have more in the area.
Question: How close is too close?
They bid for “X” forces to fight within the Inner Sphere – does this mean they can have these additional forces with their invasion forces – it is just they are only allowed to be observers and they are not allowed to fight – as if they are allowed in the Inner Sphere, are they allowed to set foot upon any captured world (to do so would automatically mean they are a Garrison force – and PGCs were considered illegal, until they were not!)
Or, must they sit outside the Inner Sphere within the Deep Periphery as the closest they are allowed to come to the invasion OZ?
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Even their warships had some, so they could be used while the station was being built.
One way information traffic – slows the send and receive time – if on station for a long period of time, it will require a service ship for re-supply purposes;
The Warship would have to remain where they are positioned – will be unable to move to respond to any external situation – so what would happen if an Inner sphere Aerospace fighter unit jumped it (some of the warship classes do not have many fighters)?
How humiliating would it be for a Clan Captain (Admiral) to take this situation, as well as the crew?
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Not sure why you think the battle reports went to the clan homeworlds
First this is the entire Clans CIC HQ;
Second, bragging rights about how well they are going (to the non invasion Clans) – plus for their civilians to know what their warriors are doing.
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The modular station
Space based stations ….
Would have become SOP for all the Clans – for the Exodus Road – The Deep Periphery support services – within the Inner Sphere – during any exploratory action around the Clan Space – hunting Dark Caste …..
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There would be a difference depending on supply routes.
There can be but one route – at every station the Nav. computer was wiped and new coordinates placed in as a security Measure – thus the need for the Spy to travel the entire Exodus road to obtain all the coordinates and return … then give them to ComStar.
There can be no such thing as one route for Wolves, one for Falcons and one for Jaguars etc
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/09/20 12:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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As suggested in a few books, they were near the battlefield, if not right outside the circle of equals for clan fights. With Conal Ward's attack in the FRR, he had to bring down forces to take the world, so they were in orbit from the sounds of it. So I doubt they would be outside the IS.
In the first run, maybe even a few waves, the clans were not worried about the IS attacking the deep periphery. Part of why the New Belt Pirates were able to raid their supplies. Also this is where the bidding can be turned against the clans. They will not rush into a challenge fight. They would rather lose the station, then get it back, the lose the honor of striking in a 'circle of equals'.
As they really didn't have need for a main CIC, the need to send timely information to the home worlds was extremely low priority. Supplies and replacements being the main thing, and even then only 1 clan was on top of that.
There is only one direction the route can go, but what systems do you pick to house your supplies? If the Highlanders book is a blueprint for the clans, they kept their own supply lines and didn't tell anyone but their clan where they were. With the clans, it seems even supply routes could be challenged for. But the fact they were hitting the Jaguars route, then hit the Nova Cats to upset them would suggest they are not one and the same routes. Wasteful if they were coordinated and would not be challenged for supplies. A necessity when you consider each one would raid another for supplies, instead of admitting they didn't order enough. Also, it would show the losing clan is weak, as they could not protect their own.
Example. Going from New York to Los Angeles, you head east to west. But do you to thru Chicago? Austin? Kansas City? Mexico? Canada? There is a whole slew of places in between, and that is just air travel. Roads has dozens more.
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Requiem
04/09/20 02:53 PM
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they were near the battlefield, if not right outside the circle of equals for clan fights.
This is to be expected if it is a circle of equals – one on one fights augmented / un-augmented
When it comes to battles ….
– Within Clan Space this would be expected also, as the Clans (Like the Gladiators of Roman Time) end up with an audience to cheer on the victor.
– Within the Inner Sphere – THIS is sticking point the ‘Circle of Equals’ is now 6 months away (at the minimum) and depending on the Wave are now including a vast number of worlds.
To think that a ‘circle of equals’ (one on fight like gladiators) is the same as that as a warzone within the Inner Sphere is a little naive!
– you bid a number of units for the Inner Sphere – that is it! You want units to watch, they MUST stay out of the Inner Sphere (or better yet never leave Clan Space), otherwise you can have who knows how many within the Inner Sphere – what is there to stop a non Invasion Clan sending units to watch the events within the inner sphere if it comes to that? – so what happens when they are attacked by Inner Sphere forces within space (they are mistaken as a target of opportunity?
Allowing who know what within the Inner Sphere is opening a vast can of worms, they have no place being there! It goes completely goes against the Clans own rules!
Conal Ward's units were part of the overall bid force – they were not a hanger on just there for the thrill of it.
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As they really didn't have need for a main CIC, the need to send timely information to the home worlds was extremely low priority.
Disagree – sticking it to the other Clans is a very high priority – the Clans are not if not into self promotion – I am the best – My Unit is the Best – My Clan is the Best …..
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Supplies and replacements being the main thing, and even then only 1 clan was on top of that.
Logistics is a very big deal – people and equipment is of extreme importance! – though the canon story was a complete white wash when it came to this subject! Give them everything all the time despite it clearly being impossible to do so was the rule of the day.
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But the fact they were hitting the Jaguars route, then hit the Nova Cats to upset them would suggest they are not one and the same routes.
The supply route – have a look at a map of the Nile River in Egypt - you have one river (the exodus route) you then have the Delta (the area within the Deep Periphery to the Individual Clans Invasion Corridors) this is the ony stage where you have multiple supply routes. This is where each individual Clan utilize their own fleets and their own warehouses etc.
If Clans are fighting against each other for supplies why wasn’t this shown within the Inner Sphere battles? Where is the shift to primary energy weapons for Mechs etc – where is the problem when it comes to clan reinforcements as units should be under manned all throughout the Touman – and yet never were. What happens if you reduce your numbers in the Inner Sphere? The Inner Sphere forces should have identified an area that could be retaken – an invasion should have been sent to take back these worlds that are now under-strength – and yet the Inner Sphere forces just sit on the border and do nothing – what a joke!
This is where there is no flow to the story – if there is a problem in the rear is should be demonstrated throughout their entire Invasion force and the Inner Sphere in their retaliation.
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Example. Going from New York to Los Angeles, you head east to west. But do you to thru Chicago? Austin? Kansas City? Mexico? Canada? There is a whole slew of places in between, and that is just air travel. Roads has dozens more.
A good example of the delta – from the single exodus road from the single road back to Clan space – through the Deep Periphery to the individual Clan’s invasion corridors (stopping off along the way to visit individual Clan’s Warehouse facilities).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/09/20 03:46 PM
66.74.60.165
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Actually, a circle of equals can be as big as a galaxy or more. The fight that killed Nicholas was one such fight. The refusal fight the Wolves did to avoid the invasion in the first place is another.
Then Joanna in the Jade Falcon series had a 5 against her match. So one on one isn't right.
Another fact. A circle of equals can be called almost anywhere. It is up to the next higher rank to say yes or no, if it will affect their combat duties. When and where might cause a delay, but normally they are done there and then, if unaugmented.
Now you understand part of the challenge. The initial bid may well be the Galaxy they are part of then drop. It isn't unknown for a commander to drop far more. They tend to be removed when they do.
I bid Alpha galaxy to take Twycross. My opponent bids 2 clusters. I bid 1 and take the fight. If things go horribly wrong, I can bring down my last bid. The other clusters of Alpha Galaxy.
This is not going to really happen in a bid, but this shows just how bad it can get.
Spectators are not allowed to do anything against those in the circle. They can't touch anything, even if it is stumbling to the edge. No pushing them back in or keeping a buddy from being shoved out.
I am the best. I am khan of the clan. I am the CIC. Why would I allow someone light years away to tell me how to run my clan? Ordering supplies and making decrees is about the only thing that need home world contact for. Now if you want to use that in the alt, fine. But in canon, they just don't need it, until the Ilkan vote.
Again. The clans didn't worry about logistics for over 200 years. They forgot the importance of it, as they didn't need to worry. This may well be part of why they didn't start more sibkos when the Outbound was captured.
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ghostrider
04/09/20 03:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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Clans did fight other clans for worlds. Mainly the Falcons the Vipers with the Jaguars and Nova Cats. The only time the idea of needing to have supplies there, as during the truce battle. They ran out of ammo, while the Wolves switched to energy weapons. Late, but it would figure with some leaders.
Outside of the game, the developers put in those quirks to give the IS a chance to fight back. Had it been like just another house, Comstar would have failed. Had they fought like the SLDF, they would have annihilated the FC/DC. There would be smart supply lines as well as avoiding the challenges, as well as using the warships to take out dropships that were military in design. It was one of the few ways they could make it work and make money. Should have been done a little better, but I don't work for them.
The Nile. There are currents within them, which some might take while others ignore for a different one. Now say you have a survival trek against others coming up, and you need to cache some supplies. Do you just put them with the others? You're out to win. So you hide them, and hopefully the others won't find them. If you are lucky, you find one of theirs and hurt their chances to win.
This does limit the choices a lot more then the flight one, which is far smaller then lightyears between the clans and the IS. I don't even think their entry point into the IS was the same for supplies. Their factories to their troops. The overall supply stations for all would make it easier, but it would also destroy some of the others without many fights. Such as buying up all the ammo.
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Requiem
04/09/20 08:49 PM
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I bid Alpha galaxy to take Twycross. My opponent bids 2 clusters. I bid 1 and take the fight. If things go horribly wrong, I can bring down my last bid.
Yes, however this bid amount must be from the bid to take the Inner Sphere. It cannot be from additional forces that were not part of this bid that the Khan brought in to boost this allowable amount.
Spectators must be from the Clan’s warriors that won a position within the invasion force and were included within all these bids – it is not like a clan, who did not win a position within the invasion, could send their warriors to be observers.
If they were mistakenly attacked by an inner sphere force this would legitimize their right to become an additional clan within the invasion corridor – a back door means of gaining access to the Invasion.
As this never occurred we can thus assume that all Clans not part of the initial invasion cannot enter the Inner-Sphere or the Deep Periphery. Also you cannot just say I will bring in additional forces if they do not fight in gaining worlds – this is completely hypocritical.
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would I allow someone light years away to tell me how to run my clan?
First, they don’t.
Second, this is like any professional sports match – by sending images back to Clan Space all they are doing is promoting how professional their Clan is in comparison to all others, putting wins on the board.
Third, real time supply requests improves the efficiency of their front line forces.
Fourth, by saying they do not need it demonstrates the canon is designed to favor the Clans over that of the Inner Sphere. Logic dictates that Clans have issues with regards to Sibko reinforcement numbers – it also dictates that the Clans were having issues with regards to logistics …..
By allowing them a free path with these two issues demonstrates that the overall game is rigged in favor of the Clans.
But that is not a shocker when you take into account the entire invasion has an incredible number of flaws built into it.
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Again. The clans didn't worry about logistics for over 200 years. They forgot the importance of it, as they didn't need to worry.
If this is so then why didn’t it affect the Clans overall battles within the inner sphere – there must have been massive consequences within all the Inner Sphere Clans units – and yet there none.
This is why I find the Clan invasion a complete farce!
Where is the reality?
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Clans did fight other clans for worlds. Mainly the Falcons the Vipers with the Jaguars and Nova Cats.
Then why didn’t the Inner Sphere forces take advantage of this situation?
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Outside of the game, the developers put in those quirks to give the IS a chance to fight back.
Can I laugh now?
All this shows is a complete lack of Beta testing when it came to the Clans – the number of Clans and the unit numbers / weapons provided to them.
Making money can only work with a reputable product – what we have here is a mess that needs to be fixed by the fans.
The entire history etc needs to be fixed as there are just too many issues that require you to bang your head against the wall as they make no sense whatsoever.
Supplies
If each clan was engaged in two wars – one within the Inner Sphere and the second within the Deep Periphery to hurt their rival Clans logistics then this would mean less forces within the inner sphere as well as even more problems with clans consumables and replacement numbers – an yet there never were any within the canon setting …… what a shocker!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/09/20 11:33 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still not understanding the fact that as long as they are not part of an invasion, garrison, saleha, reinforcements and such can be in the IS. It would be foolish to stand around without being in their armor, or mech, But as long as they are not actually invading others, they are fine to be there. The Jaguars broke their bid with this, but he Wolves didn't.
Defending yourself, and being part of a drop on a new world is totally different. You don't just become part of the bid, unless you are used to replace a dead warrior. To be honest, I would suspect some clans cheated with this by adding a 'new' cluster to the roster.
To be honest, the invasion was done by the few in power. The refusal fight ended that incarnation of it. It is a bit underhanded, but they can call for a new one that does NOT include those that failed. This has been done in the past for possession of properties. For them, it is SOP. For the IS, it is a breach of an implied contract. That is why the challenge wording is so important.
Had task force Serpent got into the clan home worlds and declared it a trail of refusal, all clans but the Wolves would be duty bound to get involved. They voted for it. The implied version or maybe just hitting the Jaguars alone, did not trigger this.
Images sent back to the clan home worlds. This is so important that it needs to be there as soon as the battleroms are pulled out of the unit? This is less important then sending back the failed that still live, and even salvage for the scientists to study. Where they are onupsmen in a fight, they aren't propaganda driven. The most narcisistic ones might need the glorification, but then that would lead to their replacement.
So when you have a command van or the leader of an invasion force, you need to send a message to the capital in order to talk with the person standing on the other side of the wall? That makes no sense. Trying to suggest weaknesses like this is a logical fault, but if you want it in the alt, go for it. It shows that the logic issues isn't just with the developers.
So you didn't get the clue about the other clans having supply issues, so when the Wolves started sooner and took more they were left in the dust? Also the same lack of supplies fed to revolts in taken worlds, as well as scaling back their goals? This is obvious to me. Might be pushing so hard to make it not work you overlook the simple. Maybe everything has to be so complicated that even Sun Tzu doesn't have a saying for it.
Forces pinned in place comes to mind as well as not even knowing about it until it was too late to do anything. What happens behind the lines wasn't current knowledge for the IS, especially with Comstar blocking the truth. Why didn't you say something about Germany starting both WW? It would have saved lives. Oh yeah. You didn't find out about it until after you were born. But that's no excuse according to the way this is phrased.
Your vision of the clans don't match a lot of others. They are the little boogiemice that sneak out and steal the bread at night, so you can't have toast in the morning. And yet the little menaces don't just walk out of their mouse holes so you can kill them. That needs to change right now. Rewrite it.
This is relatively easy to solve. Stop using canon as your base line. That mean all of the failures aren't there. Oh wait. Then it would all be your logic fails that show up... So until you do make the numbers for Defiance, or show us the real numbers you have for the alt, not making sense is screaming that they are wrong, yet nothing in numbers to back it up must really be a trip thru the looking glass.
Two wars? Normal life plus one is how it is. The clans have always been picking at each other for supplies, or just to make fools of the others. That didn't change in the invasion. Weither they wasted forces on doing it much is the key.
With clan challenges, you do not take a full cluster to attack a single star. So defense forces don't need to be RCTs. And those aren't part of the bid, so they don't have to limit them as much. They just did to avoid a lot of extra waste.
A thought came up. How many supplies DID they go thru in say a months battles? Do you really need Behemoth dropships on Monolith jumpships to move those supplies? Would a simple Buccaneer once a month handle it?
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Requiem
04/10/20 07:22 AM
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Still not understanding the fact that as long as they are not part of an invasion, garrison, saleha, reinforcements and such can be in the IS.
Sorry but no, I disagree – I cannot find it written anywhere this is a hard and fast rule – it is just an interpretation.
For my Alt universe I have decided that concrete laws need to be put in place:-
So as for my rule(s) – garrison forces are NOT allowed within the IS unless the Khan breaks the bid and reverts to the previous bid – thus a massive loss of face in the eyes of all other Clans (their holdings within Clan space are allowed to undergo Trials of Possession) – thus what they bid is ALL they will be allowed within the Deep Periphery or the IS at any one point in time – Replacements: Bid numbers can be retained whist on Crusade, of if you suffer losses they can be replaced from sibkos or from their Naval Holding yards. (eg. One warship destroyed – can request one replacement from Clan Space to maintain bid numbers)
I would even introduce the concept in that each Invader Clan can go all in – all of their remaining forces within Clan Space can be requested.
However if they fail and the predominant number of their forces fall within the Inner Sphere (say 90% loss depletion plus) – that Clan’s entire remaining Clan holdings etc will suffer a trial of absorption by those remaining clans within Clan Space.
Failure will not be tolerated!
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The Jaguars broke their bid with this, but he Wolves didn't.
And look at how all the clans viewed the Jaguars when they did this – it was NOT accepted as a normal course of action – thus it was NOT legal – they did bend the rules!
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You don't just become part of the bid, unless you are used to replace a dead warrior.
And how is an Inner Sphere attack force to know the difference? For example what happens when a Clan Invasion Fleet of Jump-ships and Drop-ships (that includes hanger on units) comes under attack from a Big Wing attack force?
This is a recipe for problems given your view of the rules.
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Images sent back to the clan home worlds. This is so important that it needs to be there as soon as the battleroms are pulled out of the unit?
Any profession Sports match – how quick are their images sent around the world? – Same principle! The glorification of the Clan is ever ongoing ….
The Khan must discuss with his people within Clan space as to Logistics – Weapons, Non-Warrior People, ships etc. – schedules – budget reports – changes to the amount of Sibko graduates that are required due to the ongoing Loss Depletion Report etc - Records keeping for the Clan History …. Etc. …. This requires real time requests, this is how important Logistics are!
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So you didn't get the clue about the other clans having supply issues, so when the Wolves started sooner and took more they were left in the dust?
Canon has it that they placed hidden supply bases in advance of the invasion fleet so that when they reach them they has supplies ready for that attack.
And yet they did not allow the IS forces the chance of finding them.
And the reverse can be said – what about all the Clans that were experiencing problems – were they included in the game as per the Wolves successes? ….. rigging the game again!
Sun Tzu
“The art of war teaches us to rely on the likelihood of the enemy’s not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable.”
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What happens behind the lines wasn't current knowledge for the IS
1. Black Boxes; and
2. ComStar personnel defying the First Circuit and sending out messages – that do get through and are released on CMM.
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Germany starting both WW?
First Germany did NOT start both WWs.
WW1 – Assassination of an Arch-Duke by a Serbian that touched off many allegiances and like dominos they all fell at one time; and WW2 – Japan kicked it off with invading China – Germany started the European war!
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Your vision of the clans don't match a lot of others.
Being in the majority does not mean it is right. The rules are open to interpretation – so until they are written in a way there can be no debate there will be debate.
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The clans have always been picking at each other for supplies, or just to make fools of the others. That didn't change in the invasion. Whether they wasted forces on doing it much is the key.
Then why wasn’t this shown within the front line forces – their rear was attacked they lost valuable supplies – the next ballet the majority of the force must switch to Lasers only with only a few Mechs (one in 10 for example) that have access to consumables?
If the Clans have these foibles then they must flow through to ALL of the Invasion forces!
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With clan challenges, you do not take a full cluster to attack a single star. So defense forces don't need to be RCTs. And those aren't part of the bid, so they don't have to limit them as much. They just did to avoid a lot of extra waste.
The Clans do NOT get the choice of saying to an IS RCT – I will only fight your Mech units, so put away all your other forces!
They fight everything on that world – vehicles, VTOL, Conventional Fighters/ bombers, Infantry, Commando, Artillery ….. everything!
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A thought came up. How many supplies DID they go thru in say a months battles?
Dependent upon ….
Clan Units fighting style …. use primary weapons laser or consumable driven;
The size of the Clan Force engaged in Battle;
The duration of the Battle (the longer the battle the more resources used);
The enemy they were fighting; and
The terrain they were fighting in.
So they could use next to none, or they could go through vast quantities.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 01:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is one story that suggests warriors from BOTH sides of a conflict have formed a circle of equals for a trial, and not get involved in it.
Think about how a military readies for a massed strike. They have a staging area they use. It is not just warriors that are going on the strike but defense forces and sometimes even pressing the remaining warriors into labor duty, So canon has it right. The alt can have them wait in the home worlds until they are needed.
And with the lack of garrisons for world, you would have bombardments being standard, as they will remove those that resist the holy crusade to reform the SL under their banner. It would also be logical that more clans would be involved, as they would know there is no way to do it with just 4 primary clans.
There is no logic to really support not having the others in the IS, except to nerf them.
There was nothing but pointing out the fact the Jaguars were using them before they should have. Other then that, I have not seen any sort of punishment for it. So if you know of one, point me in that direction. Even with one of them being the ilkhan for the invasion, there still should have been something done.
Again. Defense forces defend. They are not part of the bid, and for the most part, the IS didn't know of the bids made to invade the IS. So that step back for logic answers how they could tell those on a ship were bid or not. They couldn't. The big wings don't care, as it is their job to kill as many as they can. Bid or not, they are enemy forces.
Companies making money spread the shows as quickly as they can, otherwise another company will beat them. The khan has the last word in a clan. The SaKhan is the only one that can contradict him when it is necessary, outside of a trial. A lot of that footage would show the crusaders as being wrong about the IS not having courage or skill. That is something they do not want. It is why the IS clans started lying to the others. The losses and lack of advancement over the Wolves would have shamed them.
As for supplies, the requests for them are sent. There is no need to talk to the quartermaster to get it done. The only time it MIGHT be necessary is if the supplies can't be found. If it was an issue, the head supply person would be sent to the IS and someone else would take the position in the home worlds to get it done. If the khan doesn't kill them, they may well be part of the infantry being sent out to delay or harass the enemy.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 01:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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Let's see. If the game progressed as it was completely favored, the clans would have had better intel on the IS, meaning more forces would be sent to sibkos. All clans would have forces in the IS, as doing other wise would be a tactical mistake. Supplies would be stockpiled as well as more warships sent as well. Phelan would get captured or have been killed as he is but a single warrior in the IS. What does it matter?
Now the clans do their brutal attacks, and use the warships to make sure others did not get offworld. That would include overwhelming fighter support as well as dedicated assault dropships. They would have plenty of reserves waiting to fill in open positions.
And the major part of this. They would NOT limit the number of forces used in each battle. 3 to 1 is the standard, or so said. More worlds would fall that much quicker as they would not have a small amount of jumpships. This would be a blitz with real numbers. The IS vehicles would help, but in the end, the better intel would have those forces put into the numbers to attack.
So yeah. They favored the clans and screwed up the storyline. The LC, FRR, and probably DC w
should have fallen to their onslaught, and Comstar would not have initiated operation Scorpion to have them fight the clans. They would turn on them, once they realized the clans would win and not be as bled out as they hoped.
The Wolves would not have had the advantage to race ahead and help stop the clans from winning. Ulric would never become Ilkhan and agree to the truce fight.
So yeah. You hate the clans, and love the FS. Well done logically, there would be no IS, just new clan worlds that would be fought over by the militaristic clan society. Revolts would be put down like Turtle Bay. Complete genocide of the population in a city. More revolts, more executions. And this time, there would be no outside force to come to the rescue.
So who was favored in this?
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ghostrider
04/10/20 02:07 PM
66.74.60.165
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Do you believe all of the broadcasts done on podcasts, or ham radio? Conspiracy theories abound. How many of them are true? Even the large news companies are putting out lies that they KNOW are wrong, but implications destroys the truth.
The black boxes, if used, would be a good one to trust for the initial invasion. After that, you would have to suspect the transmissions. The clans would get ahold of some of them and figure it out.
And that also leads to how fast does it go? A week to go 30 lightyears? It is very possible the clans would get there before anything was done, even if the signal got there before the invaders did. Comstar would get a copy of it, and both Comstar and clan would be looking for a way to locate them as well as block them. If not, logic fails.
There are those that would debate the sun doesn't provide a light and heat source for the world. So someone would debate anything just for the hell of it. And a debate doesn't start off as most of the posts here have. They start off with a tone of this is/seems wrong. I think for theses reasons. Not it has to be my way or it isn't right. But then maybe I have been talking with people that aren't part of that style of conversation.
So patrolling the supply lines with warships doesn't show they had problems with trials and such? The fact they were even guarded should say something. I can understand those within say 3 jumps of the IS having them, but those in or near clanspace? With their views of the IS, it would seem wasteful to have any of them guarded.
The Clans do NOT get the choice of saying to an IS RCT – I will only fight your Mech units, so put away all your other forces!
That statement is kind of funny. For some clans, they did not issue the challenge. If their intel was close to being right, they would already know what was on world. Those that did challenge with the Batchall, they might have thought it would be mech on mech, as vehicles were frowned upon in the home worlds. After the first few battles, where the IS would 'violate' the challenge by bringing in the vehicles, then they would have a higher bid.
The challenge can state the exact nature of the assault. The challenger then was to state what forces they would use to fight with. Most of the planetary governments that responded were saying something like "With everything I have available" or something like that. The clans could request to keep it to mechs to avoid unnecessary damage, and initially didn't think warriors would use cities as cover. So yes. They did get the choice to ask.
The question of what is used is about how many jumpships and dropships each clan would need for supples as well as size. A well prepared commander has more then enough supplies to last a few months of heavy combat. The clans don't deal with months, so they would be unprepared for a campaign lasting even a month. So the amount of ships needed would increase as the battle went on.
The problem with supplies was shown in the game, but more implied, other then the print saying they had issues. Think logically. With the egos of the Jaguars and Falcons, do you really think they wouldn't have gone on a spree to catch up, pace or excel past the wolves? Yet couldn't. Forces and supplies made that impossible. It is a logic that comes about, but one that needs to be thought on. Twycross would be a good example of that. The front line troops should have been gone, but weren't.
Why? They had issues with things and didn't get moved on time. I know it was to set up the story to be exciting and dangerous, but in the complete logical look, they should not have been there. They should have been invading another world.
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Requiem
04/10/20 03:31 PM
1.158.222.248
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There is one story that suggests warriors from BOTH sides of a conflict have formed a circle of equals for a trial, and not get involved in it.
Does this story suggest it is the size and complexity of the Invasion of the Inner Sphere?
The only comparison in Clan History to that of the Invasion of the Inner Sphere is that of Annihilation of Clan Wolverine.
Anything else is a very poor substitute to make a comparison.
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So canon has it right. The alt can have them wait in the home worlds until they are needed.
As long as they are part of the bid, otherwise they are not going anywhere.
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And with the lack of garrisons for world, you would have bombardments being standard, as they will remove those that resist the holy crusade to reform the SL under their banner.
More bombardments equates to first succession war tactics (Nuclear ordinance) not only on their ships but on their units as well ….. so the holy crusade becomes the dark Jihad …. congrats.
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It would also be logical that more clans would be involved, as they would know there is no way to do it with just 4 primary clans.
How? when the canon story has the clans only intelligence being from 3019-20 – 30 years out of date – as well as the blinkered nature of their society, how many Khans ever admit they were wrong?
The only way they could get around their original bid numbers was to cheat!
Plus they still have two alternate clans to bring their numbers up to six.
And what they will find is that even with six they still do not have the numbers – they do not have the support mechanism for extended campaigns and they definitely do not have the infantry (elementals) – and they absolutely do not have the ability to garrison any significant world – they just do not have the ability to garrison any world where that single worlds population is 20 times that of their entire clans population.
The idea that you can force any inner sphere world into a caste system where they have to give up their last name and give up their children (fostering) is the most ridiculous and ludicrous idea I have ever thought that would be considered plausible canon.
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There was nothing but pointing out the fact the Jaguars were using them before they should have.
No the point is they should not have had them at all is the point unless they form part of either the original bid, or they are part of the previous bid – where the Clan must use the previous bid because the original was in error – and as a consequence suffer the consequences of breaking their initial bid numbers.
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Other then that, I have not seen any sort of punishment for it.
Why would anyone put in the canon story anything that says – oh we stuffed up with pushing the release too fast and made a massive mistake when it came it to the bid numbers (as there was no beta testing) as well as the complement(s) of forces involved so here are the revised final bid numbers for every Clan and oh by the way we are going to increase the number of clans involved from 6 to 8 or even 10 because when you factor in the fact that the IS has vehicles, mass infantry with anti elemental weapons (SRMs + Inferno rounds at the minimum) and conventional fighters so the idea that so few Clans can win in a war of attrition becomes a ridiculous!
So yes there will never be a punishment when simple mathematics is used to prove the final bids used were ridiculously in error. –By the fifth wave every clan should have almost run out of forces on the front line to continue the advance and at the same time put even the most minimum of forces as garrison units on their conquered worlds.
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Even with one of them being the ilkhan for the invasion, there still should have been something done.
From a mathematical standpoint – all clans would have had to recognize their hubris and pride as well a complete lack of military information caused them to err . the only way forward is either more clans involved or they all go all in and they realize their way of battle is completely in error and they must adopt an inner sphere way of fighting from a specific point onward – thus ditching the idea of bidding for anything.
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Again. Defense forces defend. They are not part of the bid, and for the most part, the IS didn't know of the bids made to invade the IS.
First, no I completely disagree.
Second, the idea PGCs would assist their garrisons is beyond silly – the Falcons only had two IS Regiments worth of forces – that number is going no where – plus the idea that they know how to stop partisan attacks when they have never even been allowed in combat before because they are PGCs shows how silly the game is getting. They were only used for the worst of jobs and to clean up after a Trial of …….. So they had no idea and they never had any real numbers to get the job done.
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So that step back for logic answers how they could tell those on a ship were bid or not. They couldn't. The big wings don't care, as it is their job to kill as many as they can. Bid or not, they are enemy forces.
The point is how are the Clans going to take to the idea the IS attacked units that were not part of the bid?
The way you have it is that the Clans put them in Harm’s way, but when attacked, will again loose all reason and do who knows what in retaliation for what is clearly their fault.
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Companies making money spread the shows as quickly as they can, otherwise another company will beat them.
Speed leads to errors and dissatisfied customers – reduced repeat purchases – you have one shot at getting a decent product out there, time must be taken to get it right from the get go!
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The khan has the last word in a clan.
They are a Totalitarian society so that is a given. (something their SLDF forbears would fight against with all their might).
And no the Sa-Khan cannot contradict the Khan – they can only initiate a trial of position to kick them out!
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A lot of that footage would show the crusaders as being wrong about the IS not having courage or skill. That is something they do not want. It is why the IS clans started lying to the others. The losses and lack of advancement over the Wolves would have shamed them.
There is no shame in fighting a competent enemy – quite the reverse defeating a competent enemy just proves your worth as a true warrior.
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As for supplies, the requests for them are sent. There is no need to talk to the quartermaster to get it done.
Really? – Logistics is more than sending in a form stating I want this much of that and I want them by this date.
As for the idea “they may well be part of the infantry being sent out to delay or harass the enemy.’, only if they were a warrior to begin with.
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If the game progressed as it was completely favored, the clans would have had better intel on the IS, meaning more forces would be sent to sibkos.
First Succession War Jihad – nuclear MAD
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The clans would get ahold of some of them and figure it out.
Encrypted messages?
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Comstar and clan would be looking for a way to locate them as well as block them. If not, logic fails
Quisling once again?
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Those that did challenge with the Batchall, they might have thought it would be mech on mech, as vehicles were frowned upon in the home worlds. After the first few battles, where the IS would 'violate' the challenge by bringing in the vehicles, then they would have a higher bid.
Really? Did they learn nothing form the Dragoon missive of 3019-20 as to the fighting style of the IS forces.
Plus even if the IS commander did reply to the Batchall (which I doubt) they would say either nuts! Or everything I have – and everything is everything – so the Clans cannot cry fow when the IS did use everything against them.
If the Clans did ask for Mech on Mech why would any IS commander give them that advantage?
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The problem with supplies was shown in the game, but more implied,
Favoritism once again – keeping it implies and not actual shows there are issues.
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Twycross
Really? Even Clan units need down time or additional garrison units
They were there and in all reality they should have been squashed far worse than that given by canon – where were the Full RCT vehicles, infantry etc within the story?
Once again a story that lacks all credibility give the full TO&E of all units involved …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 07:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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The alt can do whatever. Canon has it that the clans can have reserves in the IS. The may not be that many, but they can take those from aboard ships or where ever they have the staging area for the next wave. Not sure why the huge logic hole of not having reserves with you is coming up. The Sharks have military units in the IS, and were not part of the bid. They were part of one of the initial invasions. So that should answer your complaint.
First off, the clans are not stupid enough to bombard a city with their troops in it. They would pull back and be spotters to make sure they hit where they need to. The IS population is lower then the Bandit caste is in the eyes of the trueborns. They tolerate the IS people as they have little choice.
I guess you didn't read all of it before saying they didn't have intel. Done the way an invasion would be done, they would have intel on the IS and have the larger force hit.
So far all of the argument is about canon, not the alt. So don't try to bring up the alt while doing so.
Now to answer your caste issue. The CC has it, as well as the DC. Both require their people to obey without question. The CC has it so you are not even a citizen unless you do a great service to the state. So you are a civilian, with less freedom then a simple civilian.
So you are saying the logically, and according to your trying to avoid the harm coming to the FC, that the great military minds of the clans would leave all of their forces they will garrison worlds on, at least 4 months out on the home worlds? And you call the canon full of holes? The clans KNEW they did not have the numbers to take out the entire IS. So they limited the invasion to punch thru to Terra. Done the way you suggest and do it right, they would not send 4 clans, but all would send forces. Then the clans would be part of the IS eternal struggle for supremacy. They would leave the batchalls and home and just destroy anything military.
And before you start with the whole world uprising, understand that police officers tend to be 1 to even thousand or so people in the city. Laws change when a new nation takes over.
They broke with clan traditions. And nothing happened. That is because the Falcons were doing close to the same thing. NO batchalls issues as customary to the clans. This is showing the clans were falling out with their own traditions. The used of garrison units to free up front line units, was violating the agreement of not using them. THEY ARE NOT PART OF A BID TO INVADE. They are there to hold what is taken. If they really wanted to, they could stock up a full galaxy on each world as a garrison. And it will all be legal according to their traditions.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 07:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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Are you really asking that it was a screw up that the developers put in the conditions that the clans did not have the numbers to take the entire IS? And it was poor beta testing? Superior weapons and warships, and no way to really stop them? The numbers was the way to halt their advance, as each world they took required more and more forces to pacify, and allow the greater numbers to hit them? Where is this a poor idea? Execution of this could have been better, but this is standard story plots for almost all invasion forces against human in almost all sci fi. Starship Troopers is about the only one that had masses of enemy swarming the higher tech, but lesser number humans.
Numbers. Read the real invasion post again and see what would happen to the IS. No chance to hold the clans back before they consumed most of the LC and DC. Maybe even parts of the FS and FWL. The first succession war would have paled compared to the death toll the clans would have inflicted as populations tried to rise up against them. Unlike the DCMS, they would not tire of removing the IS populations. As they would control almost all of the coms, you would not know the worlds where they came in at, was now being wiped out.
How does numbers go with the Jaguars should have been punished for using the garrisons before the time set? This is all clan justice, nothing else.
Why not actually learn about the clans before saying anything? You would know the PGCs were made of failed warriors, such as those that did not have sponsorship to blood names, those that were hurt and could not serve in the front lines, as well as those that were poor soldiers. A lot, if not most, had combat experience.
As for combatting the partisan strikes your own response comes to mind, when I said something about the clans should have no experience with spying. Something about Goliath Scorpion had information there.
And what do you know, the Dark Caste would be using those tactics to gain mechs and parts. Hmmm. Yeah. They don't have ANY experience with this.
How would a violence based warrior caste take to non bid units being hit? Really? They would do the same thing they always do. Laugh at those that can't hold them off, and kill those who dare struck as their clan. Or do you want a Sun Tzu response to this? Maybe Patton had some as well.
The only thing that is in question is if they would wait until they were done with their defensive forces, or hit them while engaged with them. Being on the same ship, it wouldn't matter. THEIR butts are in the fire.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 08:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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Speed leads to errors and dissatisfied customers – reduced repeat purchases – you have one shot at getting a decent product out there, time must be taken to get it right from the get go!
By this sentence no sports could be shown live. You were screaming they needed to get the vids to the home worlds, so a delay of a few weeks to have jumpships moving to cover coms gap was too much, now you are saying they need to wait to get those vids?
Which one is it?
The SaKhan is the only one that can contradict him when it is necessary, outside of a trial. The fact that there is conflicts of visions for the future of the clan happens all the time. Contradict, and countermand are not the same thing. The order stands even though they don't agree.
Video of the enemy not being the weak foolish babies playing warrior would destroy the crusaders views, as well as most trueborns views. The IS was not the easy barbarians promised. Showing skill against them would still happen, but they would edit it, so it looked like one star took on the whole world full of inferior mechs. They had already started down this path. It would only excellarate it from their.
The clan commanders didn't care HOW they got the supplies to them, just that they got them. Not sure why you responded with only if they were warriors to begin with, when it was stated that they might be infantry being tasked to deal with moving supplies.
Comstar would know if information from behind the lines were being broadcast in the nations. They were doing coms on both sides. So they could figure out pretty much where the footage was shot, and if they have anything like we do today, cameras watching almost every were. They would find those that shot to footage.
Guess you didn't read all of the books and side notes in the rules as well. They did learn from the last message and decided the IS nations would not honor agreements, so tossed the batchall out. And there were more then a few that did agree to mech on mech. Some even honored it by doing so. Most did it to save lives.
Maybe the fact that it DID say they were being hindered and could not even attempt to keep up with the wolves. Maybe they should have shown the schedule for the invasion. Oh wait. They did. Only the wolves met those quotas and surpassed them. It was all in print that the other clans had issues. Must not be reading the books that cover this. Which is about any that deal with the war at that time.
Ok. The FC deployed in a huge tornado. They have sealed cockpits and did not run ICE. They can step over things like boulders and not get stuck in ravine that require a bridge to get across in a vehicle. And you can't think of why they only had the mechs?
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Requiem
04/10/20 09:33 PM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
Canon has it that the clans can have reserves in the IS.
And here we go again ….cheating the system to get around the issue that the initial bid was a complete a farce.
There is only interpretation.
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The Sharks have military units in the IS
Where? A Trinary of observers led by a Khan and the sakhan who were only allowed to accompany another Clan – this is a far cry from additional reserve units.
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the clans are not stupid enough to bombard a city with their troops in it.
But they are stupid enough to bomb a city full of civilians.
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The IS population is lower then the Bandit caste is in the eyes of the trueborns. They tolerate the IS people as they have little choice.
and this makes what they do alright? ….. this is Germany in Russia all over again, or how about Amaris’ on Terra …..
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they would have intel on the IS and have the larger force hit.
And yet Canon has the only bit of information if from the Dragoons 3019-20 run …… and then from Comstar’s Outbound Light …. (No other info.)
The CC – North Korea civilians.
The DC – were no way near as bad as the Clans civilians – they are an extension of the samurai of old way of light brought to life in far future.
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The clans KNEW they did not have the numbers to take out the entire IS. So they limited the invasion to punch thru to Terra.
And here I thought they wanted to determine who was the il-Clan ….. by invading the IS with a limited amount of forces and seeing who could make it to terra – and take it
The entire premise has a lot to be desired considering the limited forces they entered into the Inner Sphere with.
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Laws change when a new nation takes over.
True – but who would follow the Clans idea of what is legal – what about the idea of morality?
The idea that the Clans could force a police department of an entire world to come to their way of thinking is naïve.
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They broke with clan traditions. And nothing happened.
TPTB? Rather than following the rules of the society they created ….. how many times were the Clans give a pass when they should have been attacked …. Wolf Vs Falcon War, wolf reaping warriors from the jaguars, falcons and wolves reaping warriors from the home clans rather than engaging in a Trial of absorption at the minimum …. How many battles within the IS read like a one sided soap opera rather than taking into consideration the IS units total TO&E …. Where was the backup moving IS forces to gang up on clan forces …. Where was the anti elemental rifle … where was the IS pocket warships with dropships …..
The entire canon Clan invasion is a joke.
THEY ARE NOT PART OF A BID TO INVADE. – therefore they are not allowed within the IS ….. where is the concrete rule (not a subjective assumption) that they are allowed to do this?
TPTB created the rules for their Clans – and when they suddenly became inconvenient they ditched them …. How many times have this occurred within the canon history?
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No chance to hold the clans back before they consumed most of the LC and DC.
And how about going back and reading the battles ….. they are a joke of what should have happened.
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You would know the PGCs were made of failed warriors
Wrong ….. they are freeborn who are given the honour of cleaning up after the True borns have finished fighting.
Dark caste - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dark_Caste
They a minor nuisance to the Clans – is a far cry from being a partisan. If the clans used whole sale slaughter of civilians to get at the partisans – then they truly are Amaris’ Greenburg Gestapo.
And we are right back at the Jihad once again as the IS use nukes to kill of the Clans in response to their perfidy.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
04/10/20 09:50 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
TPTB? Rather than following the rules of the society they created …
We followed the rules of the societies we created. They were a bit less rigid than you're trying to portray.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
04/11/20 01:12 AM
1.158.222.248
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Can I then please ask,
How flexible are the rules before you are considered to have broken them?
We have the rules and we have the history – how far is too far?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/11/20 04:18 AM
66.74.60.165
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Reserves have always been a part of the clans way of doing things. That is part of what the bid is about. They can even sit and watch the battle, as long as they don't get involved. The inclusion of the forces from the last bid can enter, but only when called. And any military that keeps their reserves hundreds of light years away, which is over half a year according to you, would be completely stupid logic fail.
So the clans that bid to enter the IS can't have extra units, but a clan that wasn't even part of the fighting invasion can? Even a single unit would be violating the rules. But I don't think like that, as all cargo needs some guards.
Other then trying to say canon should not allow the clans to hurt the FC, there is really no point to trying to make it sound like the clans should have rolled over and died at Katherine's command.
Stupid to bombard a city full of civilians? We already have it down some of them would do it in a heart beat and do it over and over again. I am sure some would have done it to their own population, much less the barbarians that are too stupid to see the greatest warriors in history, to enlighten the pops uneducated butts out of the mud.
The abuse the clans do is not alright by moral standards. But it wasn't just the clans that performed it. Comstar was the ones running the camps. And the initial invasion, before the talked to comstar, they didn't have that much info. With comstars help, they had more then enough to blitz thru as far as they did.
As said before, but it seems to be ignored, ALL the clans would come in, as not a single clansman would agree to stay behind and allow another the title of ilkhan for life as well as the clans getting the Ilclan title. So limiting forces would not have happened. They ALL WOULD HAVE SENT FORCES.
Those that can't fight back would bend down to avoid more pain, would follow the laws. And it is interesting that you think the entire police force would follow such commands. They would be replaced with those that will, or bring in even more clanners which would be even more brutal. But some how this concept alludes you.
Understanding the fact that only the front line bid would be available for assaulting worlds. Those that garrison it, aren't. They are always their to 'clean' up after the front lines. This means the dirty work of keeping the populace from getting riled up as well as guarding the gains. Why this isn't sinking in, is suggesting you don't understand the way the clans work at all.
So it is ok for Katherine to kill her own family in the pursuit of power, which is highly illegal and morally corrupt, but a warrior society that is following traditions you don't know or understand isn't ok? All or nothing. This is really going into the black hole of no logic.
The actions from some are bad. Not all are. And Comstar, people born in the IS, were just as bad. So comstar should have been destroyed completely with those involved in the camps executed for crimes against humanity. That would also include Katherine and others that assisted her with the assassination of her mother. Saying Katherine could make everyone think the evidence if false, yet Comstar couldn't really says logic isn't involved here. Just desires.
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Requiem
04/11/20 06:49 AM
1.158.222.248
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Reserves have always been a part of the clans way of doing things.
Historically the Clans have never had reserve units in the traditional sense of the word as the Inner Sphere would consider a reserve unit.
For the inner sphere it means if the battle becomes a protracted quagmire additional forces are dispatched in the hope it will tip the battle in your forces favor – and this can occur many times with some critical battles.
For the clans this goes against the rules except if it relates to the previous bid only. Otherwise a whole new bid would be required.
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And any military that keeps their reserves hundreds of light years away, which is over half a year according to you, would be completely stupid logic fail.
Please re-think this through.
Example only:
Your final bid was “X” Galaxies to invade the Inner Sphere, however your previous bid before that was “X + Y” Galaxies – As Khan you decide to take with you to the Inner Sphere the entire “X + Y” Galaxies – “X” to fight and “Y” as your ‘observer / reserve / PGCs’ Units. Correct?
What this also means is that your Home Guard units used to Garrison your Clan Space Holdings is now “Home Guard – Y” Correct? So now you have made it easier for any belligerent Clan (who are at full strength and have their full complement of front line fighters) to issue trials of possessions upon some of your key infrastructure because you have not only taken your key Front line fighters to the inner Sphere but you have also taken a percentage of your second tier fighters as well – thus opening you Holdings to a hostile take-over all because you wanted warriors with you who couldn’t fight and could only sit there and do nothing.
What a wonderful strategy.
You have to keep a reasonable amount of your units within Clan space to keep the other non-invasion Clans at arms length.
The amount you take into the Inner Sphere cannot weaken your Home Guard to the point that you lose everything within Clan Space because you wanted Glory within the Inner Sphere. Remember the Clans are Mongols – you show weakness and you will invite an invasion by a rival Clan.
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all cargo needs some guards.
This is the responsibility of the Navy! – They can also swap Guards at a point within the Periphery before they enter into the Inner Sphere.
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……there is really no point to trying to make it sound like the clans should have rolled over and died at Katherine's command.
Where did I say this?
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Stupid to bombard a city full of civilians? We already have it down some of them would do it in a heart beat and do it over and over again.
Back to Jihad, 1st Succession War, Nuclear MAD tactics once more!
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I am sure some would have done it to their own population,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Widowmaker
“In the summer of 2834, the Widowmakers massacred their own merchants during a caste dispute. Though the Widowmakers blamed the Wolves for stirring up the merchants, the Grand Council agreed with Khan Jerome Winson of Clan Wolf to question their right to rule and gave the Wolves the right to absorb them.”
Yes that’s a great strategy!
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Comstar was the ones running the camps.
In addition to the charge of Treason (With ComStars help, they had more then enough to blitz thru as far as they did.) add all charges as per the Nuremberg Trials.
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So limiting forces would not have happened. They ALL WOULD HAVE SENT FORCES.
So, the rules as laid down by Nicholas no longer exist – so why attack Clan Wolverine if they can just set aside their own rules so quickly?
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They would be replaced with those that will, or bring in even more clanners which would be even more brutal.
How does that work when one Inner Sphere world has a population of twenty times that of their entire Clan’s population?
The Clans do not have the numbers! Even when Clan Ghost Bear transported their entire population into the Inner Sphere they are just one city when compared to population within the Inner Sphere.
Metropolitan population of Tokyo – 38.14 million (2016) – Clan Ghost Bear just under 25 million.
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This means the dirty work of keeping the populace from getting riled up as well as guarding the gains.
Jade Falcon circa 3050 has just a little over 200 PGC Mechs – their ability to Garrison? – especially when they have had no training with regards to Partisan war – you need boots on the ground – you need police investigators – you need a high electronics surveillance team – where are these forces?
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So it is ok for Katherine to kill her own family in the pursuit of power
This is supposed to be a modern medieval society – Fratricide is supposed to be SOP
Just look at the Clans how many warriors kill their fellow warriors within a circle of equals at any point in time?
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That would also include Katherine.
Where is the proof? Innocent until PROVEN guilty. There is also the point she is Archon.
And as per any logical thought she NEVER had to kill her mother to take the throne - only Victor had to die – this was just a bit of sensationalism writing that made no sense whatsoever.
As stated before the proof of ComStar’s guilt is readily available if you are able to get commando / spy forces into the Clans rear and then get them off again or they send an encrypted message via Black Box.
As for Katherine – good luck with that – she would have had anyone with knowledge of it killed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/11/20 02:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Reserves can be but a single unit. But I can see why this isn't really thought of as being a reserve. You bid 2 clusters to take a world, while each battle would not require that many. They may well have only a trinary or two in a battle with others just sitting around as they did bid for the right to hit different units. This comes from the 13th wolf guard that took badges instead of bidding for assaults.
So no one in the clans is smart enough when making their bids, didn't think about having units guarding their home territories? It is known thru the Shark incidence that they were going to be attacked by one of the clans to punish them for their actions. The sharks found out about it and took out the attackers.
Now where is the list of the ENTIRE clan roster? Not just what went to invade.
The Navy needs to supply guards for cargo. And those very guards can be moved to combat in the front line with but a single order. They are warriors. Maybe even elementals in armor. Hmmm. Guess this shouldn't be considered warriors..
And funny that you suggest not weakening your assault forces, yet you want to have some change out the navy ones guarding the cargo coming in...
The entire set up for the alt has the tone that the clans should heed Katherine's orders. Nerf the clans and keep them from actually attacking or staying in the IS, and Katherine's rise to power has to happen. Both are full of holes far larger then canon. Changing anything negates the rest. But some how, this isn't being seen. It may just be me that has seen this.
This is a war game. I said using nukes to hit the clans with, even just the warships would start off this process. But other then trying to keep the game from de-evolving, why wouldn't a war to the death start heading that way? Both sides have used them in the past, so why not now? Not the way I want the game to go, which is why the Jihad is so much crap to me. This would be more preferable to the torture going on as it's results are much quicker. Ulric's walk thru a battlefield that had a MechWarrior start beating a citizen of that city. Do you think this was the harshest any of them did? This is no worse then the houses after they take a world either with a raid or full assault.
There were other clans that did similar things, like the Falcons and Jaguars. And yet they were not put up for absorbsion or annihilation. Hmmm.
The rules Nicholas laid down was to keep losses as low as possible. With your complaint the whole thing wasn't done logically, and with keeping losses in mind, the main way to do the invasion would be to send in more troops. Keep your forces from being diminished, while avoiding the sort of damage a small unit will inflict with a very drawn out battle. Also, you said the clans already moved away from Nicoholas's teachings with the crusader concepts. They knew that with the forces they were going to send, they could not take the IS. Done logically, they would have more intel as said in previous posts and would have sent a lot more troops, as they would know the houses would not care if Terra falls. It is not the center of the IS for each house. And as Ulric said about the clans taking Terra. There would be a constant war as the clans pushed outwards.
You suggested that the invading clans should be recalled as they failed to take the prize. I said other clans would not even allow them to be left out from becoming the ruler of all the clans, and would push to be included when the fight bogged down. New bids and fights would slow down the invasion even more, give the IS time to prepare or do the unthinkable. Hit the clans at home. Best take them out now, then risk it. And this is not saying to send every possible force to the IS. It is say ALL the clans would participate.
How does any dictatorship work? The populace ALWAYS outnumber the soldiers. The Roman empire would be a good example as well as the Mongol hordes. They faced even greater challenges with distance and time to get things there.
The inclusion of Comstar into the mix changes the facts of controlling worlds. They had more resources as well as major control of the news and such, that they could use that to remove a lot of threats. As the IS has had worlds change in the past, being told the rulers ceded the world to the enemy. That stops a lot of the hopes that they will be rescued any time soon. So they bunker down and try to keep out of sight until such time as their previous rulers decide to come back. For some, the change is better.
Fratricide is NOT supposed to be SOP. It is illegal and immoral. The issue came about that no one could prosecute those doing so, unless it was a minor house that pissed of the dukes and higher. That does not make it any more right then nuking a city or wiping out the entire family line.
Proof? They had proof she killed her mother. And Melissa would have had to die as well, since she would have taken the entire FC, and found out who had him killed. Oh wait. A mother would look to see what happened to her first born that was supposed to take the job she now had, but asked for her to stay on while he learned how to be the best ruler he could be?
This fact alone was why she had to move, and her mother was the target that needed to be gone. Her popularity would make untouchable, as she was more powerful then Katherine was. Victor didn't use the information they got, to avoid the civil war that happened anyways, since Katherine wanted a dictatorship, not a monarchy. Complete control, not the head of a feudal system.
And Katherine didn't kill all knowledge of it when she had her mother killed, What would have changed?
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Requiem
04/11/20 07:33 PM
1.158.222.248
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If a clan bids a certain amount – that is what is used in the battle
The difference between this final amount and the second to last bid can be assigned to the battle – however at the loss of the commander and unit’s honor.
This additional amount is NOT a reserve force in the traditional definition.
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Now where is the list of the ENTIRE clan roster? Not just what went to invade.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Touman
“A touman is the sum total of a Clans martial assets”
So HERE is the entire Clan Roster.
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Navy
You bid a certain amount in the Inner Sphere that is all that is allowed in the Inner Sphere at any one point in time – thus a change is required before the merchantmen enter into the Inner Sphere.
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The entire set up for the alt has the tone that the clans should heed Katherine's orders.
Really?
Katherines rise to power will bring sanity back to the Fed-Com Military that could never have been achieved under Victor (as he was always with the his unit rather than actively being in the CIC where he should have been.)
Catherine WOULD have attacked both the Falcons and Wolves at the end of their civil war – thus actively destroying both of there is forces in combat (turning those that were captured into her bondsmen). As for those that escaped – their fate – trial of absorption by another more worthy clan (they were weak and the weak are put down!) – this is after all the Clan’s way of life.
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This is a war game.
Correct ….. not having nukes is the way the game should go ….. but having an enemy abuse the citizens it captures IS the way it should go?
This is just as equally as disturbing, if not more, I do not want nukes and I do not want the SS / Gestapo in the game I find many of the underling concepts as to the Clans abhorrent – they are not former SLDF they are Amaris.
If the game wanted a former SLDF unit they should have created a society accordingly.
Not warrior based Caste based single Totalitarian Government – Democratic Council were each Caste within the Clan has an equal say and the Khan can be from any Caste not just Warror.
The idea of Fostering gets Nerfed.
Warriors can come from any birth True or Free.
The idea of Sibkos gets Nerfed.
True born is similar to that as IVF – used by families to have children.
The idea of losing your last name and Blood names is Nerfed.
A true egalitarian and free democratic society – where the artist has the same value as the Warriror.
Why are they invading? They are horrified with what they see is happening within the Inner Sphere – their invasion is not about conquest it is about liberation – when they arrive they bring freedom form the constraints of money, they bring heathcare, they bring agriculture and art to free the people from the depraved societies that the Inner Sphere has devolved into.
This is the true inheritors of the SLDF not the rubbish the Clans have become.
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There were other clans that did similar things, like the Falcons and Jaguars.
And they too should have been put up for absorption and annihilation!
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The rules Nicholas laid down was to keep losses as low as possible.
And how does that work out when the Inner Sphere’s idea of war is maximize the losses as high as possible? Especially when they have a sibko system? They should have run out of warriors within a very quick period of time as every means known to man would have been sed against the Clans Warriors both within and without the cockpit.
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Also, you said the clans already moved away from Nicoholas's teachings with the crusader concepts.
Not what I am intimating!
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You suggested that the invading clans should be recalled as they failed to take the prize.
If they failed they are kicked out or absorbed … this is the Mongol Way.
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and would push to be included when the fight bogged down.
Against the clan’s own rules.
An entirely new bid would have to be called for – with many battles to determine whom the next set of Clans could include.
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New bids and fights would slow down the invasion even more, give the IS time to prepare or do the unthinkable.
Then what is the year of peace?
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It is say ALL the clans would participate.
No, the clans society is built upon the premise of superiority – winners and losers – the winners move forward and losers can sit in the corner. The ide that all can participate goes against Nicholas’ schoolyard rules of superiority.
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How does any dictatorship work?
Apple meet Orange ….Orange meet Apple
Comparing the Roman empire’s military and government does not apply – the two societies cannot be placed side by side and be expected to be the same. They are men and armies of their time, saying you can transplant the morality of the past into the future just does not work.
Comparisons can be made to provide a guide, but to consider that everything will be the same?
The Roman army was better led, more highly trained, had an understanding of engineering that no other military could even hope to come close to understanding and included people from all over the empire – and was about 10 times as large as any single countries military.
This is not the Clans.
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The inclusion of Comstar into the mix changes the facts of controlling worlds.
For a time this could be considered a possibility, however if it comes out that they did do this …. Fall of the ComStar Empire!
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Fratricide is NOT supposed to be SOP. It is illegal and immoral.
How many times has it been written into the Game? And within every House and even within ComStar ….. Regicide is the central tenant of the game (Amaris Vs. Kerensky)
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Proof? They had proof she killed her mother.
Where? ….. the evidence they did get would have NEVER held up in a court of law it is circumstantial at best.
If it was taken to court Katherines Lawyers would have turned it into a joke!
Katherine did not have kill her mother only Victor – with the death of Victor how long would she have remained as Ruler in her Grief? Her mother would have gone into isolation at this news – besides Katherine could have wheeled her out whenever she wanted to get something done.
Sorry no, Victor is the only one who had to die for Katherine to get the top job – it is just a matter of time.
Katherine did not want a Dictatorship she didn’t need such a system – being Archon gave her all the power to rule.
What happened to all the people who knew? In the end there was only one remaining – and what happened to him?
Then they had to use the illusion he was alive with the bloody handed princess series of art …..
So yes everything changed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/12/20 08:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Gonna retry this again. Timed out the last time.
The full roster would include the combat dropships that are used by their forces. So it isn't complete.
The clans can have as many warriors as they can ship in the IS. Only those bid can invade worlds. Not sure why this needs to be repeated. You want the alt to do that, then fine. Make the largest logic flaw in the universe. It would counter your favorite quoting subject Sun Tzu's advice. In canon, they were there to replace warriors or just act as guards. And more then a few times, both in the IS and at the clans home worlds, the khan/sakhan or leader of a military group, included themselves in a fight, that was bid by someone other then their personal unit. So it isn't like it wasn't already being done before they even decided to invade.
Katherine would bring sanity back to the FC?
She would lose in both strikes as well as have the other houses actively fighting the FC before the end of the truce. Her ego would demand it, and even Nondi would be fired or have an accident if she ever disagreed with Katherine.
And as you lover reality, the idea of PTSD doesn't happen to the soldiers of the FC. Having them on 24 hour guard duty as suggested previously, as well as constantly on dropships to head toward another battle, if they survived the first ones, doesn't have any consequences in your alt. Katherine has a power complex and would never share it with anyone. She would do purges every so often, maybe every month when a unit didn't perform as she wanted them to. They would have to be traitors in not being able to take down a clan cluster with a single lance. And it would come to that.
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ghostrider
04/12/20 08:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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No nukes, but assassinations, terrorist attacks, poison and such are to be used? Explain how this is any different, except the nukes kill faster and more quicker.
I don't like the use of nukes myself, and should have been left out. But the need to have the 'hated' enemy to fight against needs a villain to absolutely hate. It isn't like the IS hasn't done that. Players love a certain house, so those opposed to it are that evil. There would be no real threat from WOB if they didn't use the nukes, so that whole thing would have been a wash. But poisoning an entire city to strike back at an enemy and those that are working with them?
The clans were almost all military, and would never be able to run as a democracy. The SL wasn't even one. So the basis of it was not even there to start with. Then comes the neutering of the soldiers. Even military discipline would not hold against those that were forced into the civilian jobs.
And as pointed out, the clans didn't follow Nicholas's teaching. They moved away from it after he died.
As said before all governing forms become corrupt after a time.
To put a fine edge on it, the clans were liberating the IS, in their minds. They needed to be shown the true light of being better then what they were. And in more then a few cases it was true. More then a few crime families were destroyed from the invasion as well as other corrupt entities. The pirate hordes being one. Not all of them, be enough to remove them from being a threat for a while.
If the clans stuck with the SLDF ideas, they would never have invaded or had done so long before they did. The entire physical for duty is the basis for genetic purity. As the positions dry up, the requirements go up.
Unless you need fodder, then you take anyone and hand them what might be a working rifle. Why waste a real good one, if they are not expected to live past opening the door?
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ghostrider
04/12/20 08:43 PM
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The clans would be right in their desire to remove the taint from the IS if the only thing they could do is assassinate, bomb and cause collateral damage against something they don't like. For someone that thinks this style of 'warfare', which it isn't, needs to be removed, then they would have done so.
As said before, and will be repeated. The clans would NOT have been told to sit out. You can NOT tell them, they have no chance to become leader of all the clans for all time. That would be completely against the superior warrior concept, as those that would stand idly by would become dead or forced into being bondsmen or civilians. That is the end result if you do not become the ilclan. The 4 would not have been the only clans by any means. It may well be those that come in last in the invasion scheme might come thru the CC area, but they would all have forces in the IS. Well except the Wolves in this case. The whole idea is that you give up the dream of being the top dog. Not something ANY clan would allow. Even the wolves might have a break in ranks from this. So by your definition, this had to be all or none. No exceptions.
As you seem to have forgotten, the year of peace was for all bloodnamed to return to the home worlds to elect a new ilkhan. They were over confident the IS was pacified enough to allow them to be away from the front lines. This had nothing to do with getting new bids to invade. They did activate more clans to come in, and it was more to hold back the Falcons and Jaguars. There is nothing to suggest there was ANY new bids to enter the conflict.
As said already. The idea of not being allowed to fight for the right of being the best is against all clan fiber. Nicholas did NOT come up with the one target makes one person leader for life. All would never give up the chance to become the top dog.
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ghostrider
04/12/20 08:59 PM
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As it seems the concept of what a dictatorship is and does has fled the conversation, let's review it.
A dictatorship has the ruler (ilkhan) send what will be done to the senate (Grand council) that then send out orders to the military to make sure it is done and done right. The military then pressures the workers to do it and do it now.
What is the difference between the Roman empire and the clans?
The clans went after someone that was already 'organized' and could fight back. The lack of numbers as well as the hordes of enemies was the issue. They are still one and the same. Dictatorships. Apples and oranges only to those that want to change definitions to fit their view, not what others know it as.
And each nation would be considered each world in this case.
The trick you love to brag about with Katherine is the very trick Comstar would use to avoid being blamed for the conditions on the clan held worlds.
Lies like they were protecting as many as they could, but a few would not stop hassling the clans, on to, they were only doing their job, as well as a few overstepped their authority. Even having captured workers would not change this. Simple person was forced to confess under torture comes to mind. The first circuit could even claim they could not get orders thru because of the coms issues. The clans did have their own network, so should know how to operate as well as jam the IS HPGs.
What Sci Fi game doesn't have assassinations being what brings about the fall of the empires? It is about the standard way to set up the major conflict that happens in the game. So what is the difference between someone being assassinated or having a nuke dropped on a world? It all starts the war. It is less damaging to assassinate someone, but then that is about the only way some people would ever get to lead anything. It doesn't make it right. But it does start the story.
Forget the assassin that killed Melissa was used to kill Omi? Or that Melissa would not step down if Victor did die? She didn't step back after Hanse died, so why now?
Katherine could do nothing that her mother could not counter with the exception of assassins, and with those in the government, that would have been far harder once Victor was killed.
Melissa would find the evidence and have Katherine removed. Katherine was a shadow of Melissa and she knew it. There would be no stopping Melissa if Victor went first. And with this, Katherine looked to be trying to show up her brother. The implications that Victor killed their mother is how she got into position to attempt the take over. It would not have happened if their mother was not killed first.
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Requiem
04/13/20 04:14 AM
1.158.222.248
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The clans can have as many warriors as they can ship in the IS. Only those bid can invade worlds. Not sure why this needs to be repeated.
Where is the hard and fast printed rule? …. Otherwise it is just an assumption based upon various stories cobbled together.
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Her ego would demand it
She has her father’s cunning …. Did any of the other houses commit forces against her in the Canon story? …. Look at the way she dealt with Sun Tzu ….. look at her media presence …..
Her purges related to units who sided with Victor!
Sorry but I disagree completely with this assessment.
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No nukes, but assassinations, terrorist attacks, poison and such are to be used?
How far is too far in the game?
Villainy is a concept based upon an individual’s birth – and the history they have been indoctrinated into …
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The clans were almost all military
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Caste_System
“Despite their preeminent position the warrior caste is not the largest of the five castes: as of 3062 there were around 115,000 Clan warriors, or just .01% of the Clans' total population. Members of the warrior caste also had the shortest lifespan, with an average life expectancy of 45.2 years.”
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and would never be able to run as a democracy
Disagree – how does the new Clan Smoke Jaguar work without warriors? And how do het a new ilKhan …. By election perhaps?
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The SL wasn't even one.
How many individual worlds have a democratic government? ….. a gret deal when you start reading about them …. Have a look at the back of the fist House book for Steiner, Davion and Marik.
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the clans were liberating the IS, in their minds.
And the same could be said with Japan and Germany in WW2.
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If the clans stuck with the SLDF ideas, they would never have invaded or had done so long before they did.
Twisted ideology is very easy – consider the Wave – a high-school psychology exercise.
If the clans stuck with the SLDF ideas, they would never have invaded or had done so long before they did.
genetic purity - Nationalsozialistische Rassenhygiene
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The clans would NOT have been told to sit out. You can NOT tell them, they have no chance to become leader of all the clans for all time. That would be completely against the superior warrior concept, as those that would stand idly by would become dead or forced into being bondsmen or civilians. That is the end result if you do not become the ilclan.
Then where were there so few Clans to start and remain for the Invasion? If they could not be told why didn’t they (the non invasion clans) just invade also?
Because they believe in their societies rules?
Some were allowed to go to the invasion due to the bidding rules and others had to stay home … Just as Nicholas designed.
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What is the difference between the Roman empire and the clans?
Massive differences …..
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The trick you love to brag about with Katherine is the very trick Comstar would use to avoid being blamed for the conditions on the clan held worlds…..Lies
Except you could not prove Katherine’s and you can with ComStar.
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She didn't step back after Hanse died, so why now?
Her age Vs. Victors age.
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Melissa would find the evidence and have Katherine removed.
Only if she suspected foul play from the get go.
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The implications that Victor killed their mother is how she got into position to attempt the take over.
And here I thought it was Victor trying to put a fake on the Marik Throne (The death of Thomas Marik’s son to Leukemia?)
And taking the Fed Suns – Yvonne was incompetent so she just gave it to Katherine!
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It would not have happened if their mother was not killed first.
In the canon story … you are correct.
In any other true story she would have been First Princess before Thomas Marik’s son died of Leukemia –and she would have made sure he would have made it home before he died (in front of the Media at the same time to demonstrate the compassionate Katherine to the people of the IS).
Thus no war with the FWL ……
All Hail Katherine the Peacemaker!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/13/20 01:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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The cobbled together stories are better then the printed fact they can't have them. Oh wait. There isn't anything printed saying they can't have the warriors in the IS that aren't part of the invasion. So for canon, the complaint that they are is closed.
And when the SLDF formed the clans, most were military. I guess that point should have been clarified. They were formed by the SLDF exodus fleet. So when started that is why they couldn't do a democracy.
So the military made a decision that would affect all the military by voting for the course of action and that makes it a democracy? Something is not right with that thought.
Genetic purity was not one of the ideas of the SLDF, so that concept would not have come about. The entire Iron womb idea would not have gotten main stream like it did.
The limiting of the invasion clans were done so the developers could allow the IS to survive. How bad to you think their blitzkrieg would have been had the clans struck in full force? And how little they would have left for their future plans? Oh wait. They were favoring the IS by not wiping them out even more. The news of the FC should have been enough to send more clans directly at the LC portion. The goal being Terra, but to have the military of the FC on the flank, all would know the Falcons could not hold them back forever.
Dictatorships run on the same principles and ideas. They are so similar that the names seem to be the only difference in them.
Melissa was not as old as more then a few archons of the past. And with that, if she were going to step down, she would have made sure Katherine didn't inherit the throne. And she would have the power to do so. Granted, if the developers would have kept with the others faults, this would be moot after Katherine had her killed. And it would happen, as Melissa would interfer with the way Katherine was doing things.
You say it was to put a fake on the throne, yet the entire story has Victor trying to keep the FWL from hitting the FC during the issues with the clans and such. Printed reason of preventing a war until things settled down, someone saying it was a false leader on the throne. And yet nothing happened to the LC side? Sounds more like a collusion with Katherine and Marik. The FS sent a lot of resources to defend against the clans, yet the LC sent nothing or even tried to talk it out?
Actually, Katherine would more then likely kept the double, so one day, she would control the FWL thru the double. She only released the information to hurt Victor, and get more of the public on her side. Without the masses, she could not do much against Victor. That also swayed even more of the military to back her. The lies making it seem like she was on their side.
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Requiem
04/13/20 06:41 PM
1.158.222.248
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The cobbled together stories are better then the printed fact they can't have them.
i.e. an interpretation of a law – NOT a hard and fast rule!
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And when the SLDF formed the clans, most were military.
Correct …. They are the defenders of tradition and social values – they are supposed to be best of us!
What about the civilians that went with them – what about the majority of the warriors who were no longer part of the military (now civilians) to build a society – what about all the people that Kerensky kidnapped and forces to go on this voyage of the dammed – did they sign up for a pure military society?
Like father like son – they both destroyed what the Star League stood for and in so doing became what they hated the most – Amaris.
The Clans have NOT retained any of the Star League values – They have adopted nearly all of the AMARIS society values.
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How bad to you think their blitzkrieg would have been had the clans struck in full force?
Where is the vaunted game play concept of balance now?
If all attacked then all would reduce the number of clans to approx. 10 – they would not have kept in at the full amount as per canon – they would have changed many of the underlying concepts less they completely turn the Battletech universe into a complete and utter farce.
Uber Fed-Com to Uber Clans? Same problem just more players.
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she would have made sure Katherine didn't inherit the throne.
No evidence that she would have done this! – there is evidence that she offered to step down for Victor, so if Victor had died in combat it could be extrapolated she would have stood down for Katherine Q.E.D.
As stated before TPTB did not have to kill off Melisa to put Katherine in power – Katherine only had to kill Victor to obtain power.
This story development was not very well thought out (in my opinion).
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the entire story has Victor trying to keep the FWL from hitting the FC during the issues
Victor wanted to keep the Status Quo …. Ie for treating Marik’s son in hospital the Fed-Com Received weapons.
He feared that if Mariks’ son died this would stop …. So he replaced the child with a double.
And yet when he was caught out it was viewed he was attempting to put a double on the throne (and yet at the same time it was proved that Marik himself was a fake.)
It had nothing at all to do with the fear that the FWL would be hitting the Fed-Com at this stage.
What victor did here showed what a despicable leader he is – Hedonist – only thinking about what he wants! Did he even stop for one second to think about how Marik would feel at the death of his son that Victor covered up?
At this stage victor is a pitiful leader!
Katherine didn’t even know about the double until knowledge of it was released to the media.
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Katherine would more then likely kept the double, so one day, she would control the FWL thru the double.
If this plan succeeded – this would mean that no one knew about it – thus she never split the Fed-Com in two and Victor was dead – thus placing her on the Throne!
She didn’t release the information – remember the female FWL spy who obtained the DNA evidence – and then sent that evidence to Marik who releases the information – and who was captured by Victors people – who then used that DNA kit to prove that Markik was a fake – and who went on to work with Victor’s team to find the evidence that would prove that Katherine murdered her mother ……
Katherine was a master manipulator via the media - the public loved her.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/13/20 06:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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As stated before. Canon is being questioned so the answers given are for canon. The alt does not exist when answering canon complaints. Running to it when you get the information you want, yet don't like isn't going to be accepted anymore.
The alt can have pigs flying tractors with death rays for all that matters.
Well if the whole concept of the clan invasion was done as logic would suggest, there would be no clan left out of the race. So wanting it to be logical would have been the doom of the IS. Not full conquered nations, but they would not have been stopped. So the balance was to remove the logic of warfare of using all available forces. A case of careful what you wish for.
Victor did not have to die either. It was the quick way to have her take over. She could well have been given the position as Victor would find out he was a military leader only. He could not run the FC the way it needed to be. But this way would have removed the civil war. It would also allow the FC to remove the Falcons from their lands, then the Wolves. After that, the FRR problem. Once those clans were gone the DC would be next, or sending their forces to hit the clans at home. Not something they really wanted, as it removes the deadlock on who would become permanent lord of the SL. And there is always some evidence of a crime. Techs going missing. What ever.
Victor only kept the Gemini program going. He did not create it. And had Katherine been the one to decide, she would have kept it going as well. The ONLY reason she said anything is to hurt Victor. In that regard, she hurt the FC with the FS taking the blunt of the physical damage, but destroying the alliance by removing herself and the LA. Which comes to mind that she would have given up the FC throne as she was the one that removed 'her' lands from the alliance.
The fact she could manipulate the press makes her a better ruler? Her entire cause was to take as much power as she could, and destroy all that were even just neutral to it. This power madness causes the dictator rule, that is worse for the nation then having the politicians running in, like they do anyways.
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Requiem
04/14/20 07:04 AM
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Well if the whole concept of the clan invasion was done as logic would suggest, there would be no clan left out of the race.
As stated previously this goes against the Clans custom of bidding to determine victors – the Canon history did this for a purpose to demonstrate their society.
[quote Victor did not have to die either. It was the quick way to have her take over.
Yes victor could have survived (as stated previously in other Alt History Posts).
However, the inner sphere would have been a more exiting place with Katherine at the helm of the Fed-Com.
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Victor only kept the Gemini program going. He did not create it.
Victor USED the Gemini project – the child died far away from family so that Victor could maintain his political agenda - so that makes it somehow alright?
Katherine – we do not know what she would have done as it was never considered – only an educated guess.
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The fact she could manipulate the press makes her a better ruler?
This is part of the job, and whet she was doing is playing one of the versions of the great game – and no she never showed any form of madness, not like the truly mad rulers within the Battletech universe, she demanded signs of allegiance and she got it – a highly rational way of knowing who would bow to you.
She never once acted as a dictator – do you really believe the Lyran people would have loved her so dearly if she acted the dictator? I for one do not believe she even once demonstrated such a persona.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/14/20 07:04 AM)
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ghostrider
04/14/20 01:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans do not bid to determine the victors. They do so to limit damage to their forces. The victors are the ones that win those battles. To be told that you can not even attempt to become leader of all would not be agreed upon by the clans. As each clan would be out to prove they are better then the rest, sitting at home would be counter to that. And by doing so, prove you are not worthy of being anything more then history, because you have no future. That is more feared then almost anything else to the clans. You will not have your legacy pass on, as your clan will be destroyed.
If I remember right, when she found out, she considered the plan to be smart, but knew Victor didn't come up with it. Her father did. So we do know it was considered.
And it would be against her being to not have continued it, but even accelerate or expand it. It would be more to keeping with the peaceful, loving princess persona by not having to use the armed forces to end conflicts. She would still use them, but out of the public eye.
Very much the snake in the grass.
Demanding those that oppose her be removed, even if they do so because of bad choices, or not having a clue on what was going on isn't a dictator? It sure isn't being a fair person to hear all sides of an issue.
Ordering people killed and entire planets punished because they told her they didn't support her idea, isn't a dictator?
Something about a duck comes to mind. Heil was part of that phrase..
She did it so the general public wouldn't figure it out. Now protecting her people would have been different the subjecting them.
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Requiem
04/14/20 06:05 PM
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The clans do not bid to determine the victors. They do so to limit damage to their forces. The victors are the ones that win those battles.
And in this case they engaged in a bidding process to see whom would be allowed to become a participant with regards the Invasion of the Inner Sphere – and the right to become the il-Clan.
Each Clan agreed to this process!
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
Please read the subheading Preparations for War – “The process for who would assume the other three invasion corridors would take place over two full days of bidding - each Clan submitting the number of forces it planned to commit, with the goal of using the least resources necessary to achieve the objective and thereby maximize efficiency - broken up into three stages to allow the participates to study each others' wagers and modify their bids.”
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If I remember right, when she found out, she considered the plan to be smart.
Proof please – Book and Page No.
Canon – she took the opportunity to form the new Lyran state and thereby dissolve the Federated Commonwealth and keep her Lyran half out of the war with the FWL (Operation Guerrero) thus promoting her image as the Princess of Peace.
And in initiating Operation Gemini we get to see Victor’s win at any cost political attitude.
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Demanding those that oppose her be removed
Not removal - correcting bad attitude by slowing / stopping key Jump-ship transports.
Every leader must hold the whip (or have others to do it for them) handle to those who might toe the line –
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Party_Whips.htm
Show me a leader in the Battletech universe who didn’t end up killing someone – directly or indirectly?
And how many did?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/15/20 12:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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The idea that any clan would agree to the bid, goes against the way the Mongol clans would do. To be told you can't even try to become the lord of the clans would not sit at all with the others. You might as well get absorbed into one of the other clans now, as it would happen in the future. At least then, you could have a chance to be part of the clan that rules them all.
Win at all costs? initiating Gemini was not his choosing, but he did continue it. Win at all costs is Katherine. Victor did it to prevent a war from hitting the FC that would destroy any sort of cohesive defense/offense against the clans. If he was going win at any cost, he would have sent Joshua's body back with assassins to remove Thomas. Oh yeah. That is Katherine's MO.
Have the ship that is carrying the body be attacked, So he can claim Joshua was alive when he was sent. Things like that. Even leak to the CC that Victor is on that ship, and they would gladly hit it to be rid of him. There are plenty of ways the win at all costs would be played out. Even having the ship drop nukes on the FWL government, would be more a sure sign of that. But for the alt, you can have Victor slap Thomas in the face and tell him what ever. Canon is not set up in the way you want it to. That is why you need the alt and twisting everything to fit.
You hate canon, yet for some reason, won't stop using it as a base. Logic holes galore, then compounding them with even more. Saying you want a more logical story, can't be done with canon.
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Requiem
04/15/20 03:22 AM
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The idea that any clan would agree to the bid, goes against the way the Mongol clans would do.
And yet the canon story says otherwise!
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initiating Gemini was not his choosing
Then who ordered, First Price Victor Steiner- Davion – to just allow the child to die in a hospital alone, (his father not even there to comfort him), and where he is subsequently replaced by another child?
And yes win at all costs – what else would you call this most despicable action to a father and a son?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions ......
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If he was going win at any cost, he would have sent Joshua's body back with assassins to remove Thomas.
What would this grant Victor other than a war with the FWL?
There is no military or political advantage in killing Thomas – that is unless you want anarchy and war!
And no it is not Katherine’s MO – she never did anything without considering its ramifications to her personally and to that of her Power base the Lyran State.
What could she have gained by going through with such a despicable act? – Katherines’ MO in this case would be to get the child to his father as fast as possible, then use this act as an IOU in the future (ie. Get his vote to become First Lord of the IS)
All these scenarios end up with Victor and the FS at war with someone – great win!
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Saying you want a more logical story, can't be done with canon.
Pick a point in time and then make it more rational from that point forward – easy, logical and fun.
Completing a whole new universe requires a vast amount of time and energy and can also be done – its just not for me.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/15/20 02:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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And yet the person screaming they didn't follow the 'logical' things and continues to use them as a basis is saying that they wouldn't all demand to be included, and the bids would mainly be about where and when, with what units they would enter the attack. Why isn't canon wrong about this, as it is with 'almost everything else'? Because it would destroy the FC. Stopping all future plans for what to do with it.
There are more despicable actions, like having the child/parent assassinated in front of them. Torture as well. The wiki says Victor did it, but in the books it says it was continued under Victor. If it was anyone other then a house leader, it would have been praised as keeping the people safe, or had Katherine been the one to order it. Hate Victor all you want. Trying to make a monster out of things that aren't true doesn't fly. Victor is no saint. But compared to Katherine, he can fly without any mechanical assistance. If not for her take all power at all costs attitude, she may well have been the better choice.
First off, you frame someone else, such as one of the regions in FWL space, or even the CC, in canon. Having Thomas removed, it would send the entire FWL into chaos and civil war. More then a few regions did not like the Marik's at all, and would be happy to take the FWL into their custody. This would not be in the best interests of the FC at this time, but then Katherine confirming the spy's statement caused the war he was trying to avoid.
Katherine would find the spy and capture them. I wanted to say outright kill them, but having them interrogated to find others in the cell/network would be more likely. She can NOT have anyone disclosing her secrets, ever.
So making it logical from that point on, yet the entire basis has so many 'issues' that it is easy to fix? And bagging on the whole universe is not something you want to put time and effort into, says you don't want to fix anything, but just rag on those that did put in the time and effort.
From the little I have seen, more issues come up with it. The precognitive ability of the FC is one of them. You know from the future story line that the clans are coming, so you do what you can to counter it in 3025 or sooner? If the FC had those resources, the DC would be little more then the CC was in 3025, and the FRR would never have seen the light of day as an independent nation. They would have been a political entity in the FC.
Upgrading the periphery border would not have been a priority, but removing the enemy from those areas would have. The 4th war would not have ended like canon, as Hanse would not have had to gut the jumpship and dropships from the economy like he did. That is what got him to stop the war. Not so much the black out, but his economy. And yes, the black out did cause the commercial part of it to fall apart. But with enough ships, they could have had a circuit to bring messages to other worlds to get around the blackout. Or seized the HPG network at that point, suggesting Comstar had allied itself with the CC to avoid them being destroyed. Even hint the DC was helping that.
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Requiem
04/15/20 05:05 PM
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Because it would destroy the FC. Stopping all future plans for what to do with it.
Then create your fictional universe where all Clans attack at once on a broad front!
Just remember that the number of supply ships that would be so problematic for the Clans it is beyond their capability currently.
Also ,as the idea that clans no longer bid for anything anymore please rewrite their complete society.
And due to the size of the invasion (and no Beta testing) Fed-Com and DC elect to use atomic weapons against every Clan unit from the get go as they have no other choice but to do so – Jihad on steroids!
Congrats great game!
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the books it says it was continued under Victor
This means the program was there – and yet he still went ahead and ordered it to be implemented – an act of utter barbarity!
This shows that Victor is a monster at this stage! There are some lines even a House Lord should never cross and he did – at this stage he is the equal of CC’s Maximilian Liao!
Katherine may have her faults, but she never went this far! She was always the better choice – this is why at this stage rather than succeeding she should have removed Victor from the board, PERMANENTLY.
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You know from the future story line that the clans are coming, so you do what you can to counter it in 3025 or sooner?
Wolf’s Dragoons were ordered by their Khan to do this …… circa 3019-20 meeting in the Deep Periphery.
Canon may have them doing nothing but in reality something should have been done other than Natasha forming her own Cluster with Trinaries and using it within the IS prior to the Clan’s arrival.
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If the FC had those resources,
And yet the resources of the Fed-Com should have been far more than given – The CC should have fallen in the 3039 war.
And sooner or later the ghost units would become known to Davion agents – as well as their origins – thus putting ComStar once again in the cross hears of the Fed-Com.
As for the FRR – it should have been only half the size, as there is no way the Lyrans would just give up their half of the FRR just because the Archon was having fun of the DC’s predicament in a press briefing.
Those worlds were won by Lyran Blood – and only by the loss of further Blood would they ever give them up!
Canon once again lost the plot with the formation of the FRR!
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That is what got him to stop the war.
Economics (due to ComStar’s interference) not military forced the war to stop – otherwise the CC should have fallen during the 4th Succession War.
And yes ComStar’s plan was also to save CC.
At this point is where the Black Boxes should have become a priority for Fed-Com – thus their mass production would have started shortly hereafter.
Also at this point in time every house should have realized ComStar’s perfidy towards all the IS Houses – thus every house should have begun a program to train people to take over every HPG from ComStar if they attempted such an action against their House!
Thus in the future with Comstar’s betrayal of the IS to the Clans there is a very real possibility that both the Fed-Com and DC would have Nationalized all HPGs – and removing ComStar HPG from their realm if they do not tow the line!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/16/20 04:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Utterly barbaric to do something like have someone be the poster child for a foreign ruler, in order to keep your people from being attacked on another front, knowing full well most of your troops are focusing on the clans? Unlike his sister, he was not doing it to take the rulership road from Thomas.
The second part of this was, he needed to make sure the flow of refit parts continued to the LC portion. Katherine was the one that would benefit most from this continuing. Yeah. Good idea to kill the golden goose, which meant the clans didn't get kicked out. Hmmm.
Maybe you need to reread the entire discussion about the clans attacking en masse. Doing it the logical way, like you been saying, they would not have agreed for only 4 clans to have a shot at becoming the ilkhan. This is the way it would have been done if it was a real logical war. Don't like it? Most don't like the truth like this, when it negates someones idea of how to make it all more realistically logical.
Given the leaders of the IS at the time, who would actually believe a story of the SLDF coming back to remove the houses from existence? Liao? He was out of touch with reality. Hanse? He might. But then he would have been more likely to dismantle the dragoons. Katrina? She wasn't happy that the dragoons jumped ship before the end of their contract with the LC, The FWL? Even without the MIIO agents stirring up trouble, they were too unorganized to do much. The DC? Takashi had them to brittle to withstand the might. Given that, I can see why he would look for another way.
Think about the FC and comstar for a second. Do you really think the other houses are going to cry foul, when they are benefitting from such actions? Do you think they would even believe it? If the FC would have tried to accuse comstar of anything, they would be at a very harsh disadvantage at that point.
And to mass produce the black boxes would definitely have the other houses finding out about them much sooner. Had to pump out several hundred thousand units like that and not be seen.
Have you ever heard the question of how many can keep a secret? Just one. With each person being told about them and even worse, learning how to use them, the secret escapes even quicker.
One note that seems to be missed with the idea of taking over the HPG network. Only comstar knew how to run them. So seizing them was possible, but not being able to run them.
Comstar was basically neutralized just after operation scorpion. That is when the concept of not knowing how the HPGs work was hammered into the game.
How do you train to run something that no one you know of, can use?
It isn't a skill you just pick up and learn it like shooting a gun. It requires more then just aiming at another world. If you can figure that one out by itself. The black box isn't so strict.
Now, with the stories in the game, Comstar does not have the HPGs aligned up to other worlds all the time. They shift where it is going. So how do you know you even got it to the right place? They could very well be trained on another world, or the people there don't know how to send anything back? This isn't something like throwing a football.
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Requiem
04/16/20 07:36 PM
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The ends do not justify the means. Especially when the ends result in a situation as disastrous as what resulted, The FWL and the CC attacking – loss of access to refit packs.
I find it very difficult to understand how anyone could still stand up and say what he did was the correct course of action - politically or morally.
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Maybe you need to reread the entire discussion about the clans attacking en masse.
Canon – both the Fed-Com and the DC have extreme difficulty with dealing with just two Clans – how will they fare with 5 times (and may be more, depending on how / where the lineup is structured).
So please elucidate me – how are the Fed-Com and the DC expected to deal with this larger invasion force without going for either the Clan’s Jump-ships or using nukes?
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who would actually believe a story of the SLDF coming back to remove the houses from existence?
When you receive interrogation reports from multiple POWs all collaborating the same story? … when you have the Dragoons also collaborating the same story?
Question if you found out what ComStar was up to (providing military information to the Clans) how are you going to get them to stop? Or are you just going to ignore it? Or do we start up another shadow war with comstar once again?
By this time the entire Fed-Com and a good majority of the DC should have black box technology – to think the entire IS House spy units hadn’t put long term spy(s) into ComStar and they didn’t obtain all the information to run the HPS to their handlers – who then used the information to train House teams to work them – is a little naïve. Especially when they have just gone through a shadow war with ComStar? Just one person in the right place and your House could have a complete understanding of how to operate a HPG … it is just that easy.
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Do you really think the other houses are going to cry foul, when they are benefitting from such actions?
This is just the FWL because the CC should have died in 3039 – so this is three quarters of their entire net being taken away.
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Do you think they would even believe it?
Yes …. Proof obtained if presented correctly can be used correctly.
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And to mass produce the black boxes would definitely have the other houses finding out about them much sooner.
DC already have them …. So again that just leaves the FWL.
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With each person being told about them and even worse, learning how to use them, the secret escapes even quicker.
Then how does any country keep any secret about any topic?
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That is when the concept of not knowing how the HPGs work was hammered into the game.
Then what happened post Fortress Republic – when ComStar is finally destroyed? Do the families of each HPG stations just go private and keep the money and the knowledge in house?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/16/20 08:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Since Victor did not kill Joshua, just keep Thomas thinking he was still alive to continue to get equipment needed for the troops on the clan line is much better then opening up millions to die from petty jealousy. Starving millions that don't agree with you, while telling the military to put down insurections with force. Killing your own family is much better. I can see that now. NOT!
Not saying it was the best course of action, but it did keep the refit kits flowing for a while.
You have forgotten the fact you said it wasn't logical they way they had the clans invade, and when I point out what would have happened if they did, you don't like the results? The accusation that the clans were favored, yet only enough to threaten the IS, not obliterate it was sent in, how is this favoring the clans? It favors the IS. I don't mind that logic isn't held up with the inclusion of all the clans. But saying they would not do this, or would do that, as they were Mongol hordes, and not want to face the truth about what would have happened if they did, well don't bring it up.
What POWs? The clans invaded after the Dragoons stopped sending intel. Again. Knowing it all and trying to change it with knowledge they would not have at that time isn't going to work. So when they got their orders, in 3019, who would believe they were part of the SLDF of old?
So you haven't read the history of the IS, as well as Comstar. The houses did NOT get people into Comstar to learn how to operate the HPGs. Maybe not skimming the information but actually reading it might stop all the misunderstanding of the fictional story of the game.
It is easy to con the people that run the communications network of the entire IS? ROM is very efficient in making sure the story is correct.
If someone had done so, then Comstar would not exist, as their hold on interstellar coms would be history. The use of the black boxes is probably why the shadow war wasn't a complete smear of the MIIO and LOKI. And with this, Comstar should have gotten ahold of the black boxes as they wiped out intel agents that had them. It isn't like the movies where someone screams or steps on a branch just before killing the agent.
And with this, another issue just came to mind. Comstar should have had access to the SLDF sneak suits, and would have upgraded them during the 300 plus years.
During the 4th war, when it became apparent Comstar was protecting the CC, who would cry foul? Oh yeah. No one. The intel shadow war started. So your kidnapping claims may well have happened, but they were killed or rescued before any information was gotten from them. Yeah. ROM would kill them before allowing Comstar secrets out. And without the black box, the HPG is the ONLY way to get a fast message out saying pick me up when their jumpship is in a different system.
Also, reread the point that the FC and DC did take over the coms once they were hit with operation scorpion and how they couldn't operate it. So why would they be able to do so before then? And don't forget. It was Walterly's hand picked aide that let the word out that operation Scorpion was going to happen. Have to look up the name.
The FC didn't learn the DC had them until the hit on Luthien by that clans. So again. Having the whole story, then retconning what you want into the past to try and remove the truth isn't going to happen. So if they started mass producing them right after Katrina handed some over, the other houses would have known about them. Which would have changed the entire 4th war. The other houses would have gotten suspicious of the coms being used by them.
So keep the timeline straight. This is a good part of why you are not understanding why things were done the way they were. They can't use the force to see into the future.
Uh, let's see. The Republic came about AFTER the houses got ahold of the HPGs. The fact Focht opened up the libraries to the IS would probably have information on how to build and maintain the HPGs. It would also stand to reason that they were taught or had some members of Comstar show others how to operate them. So when the Republic was formed, they would already have a working knowledge of the HPGs. It may well have been a condition to leave comstar running them as well.
I am wrong on the part of the IS not getting agents deep into comstar. Sharilir Mori, the DC agent that informed the DC about the operation was a very high positioned person.
And according to the wiki, more then a few stations out right refused to follow the order to shut down on their own.
Edited by ghostrider (04/16/20 08:56 PM)
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Requiem
04/17/20 12:10 AM
1.158.222.248
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You have forgotten the fact you said it wasn't logical they way they had the clans invade
All the Clans invade in their own corridor – being an IS lord, how are you going to stop it? – nuclear weapons?
Please explain …..
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What POWs?
When they invaded ….
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ROM is very efficient in making sure the story is correct.
Then why is the history of spy’s littered with the “Mata Hari” ….. and the double agent? ….. they cannot be accurate 100% of the time.
It is only when the existence of the spy becomes known will ROM be able to act, and by then it will be too late – the information will be in the hands of Hanse Davion!
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Comstar should have had access to the SLDF sneak suits, and would have upgraded them during the 300 plus years.
And provide the IS with proof that they had been hoarding advanced IS technology? …. Sorry I do not think so.
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During the 4th war, when it became apparent Comstar was protecting the CC, who would cry foul?
Hanse Davion and Quintus Allarad …. And their entire spy network!
Canon – Black Boxes exist – it is only the numbers that are in dispute!
Quote:
Operation Scorpion
“called for insurrections on all Clan occupied worlds administered by ComStar, to tie down all garrisons, as well as complete HPG Interdiction of the Successor States, to be conducted concurrently with the Battle of Tukayyid.”
Sharilar Mori
‘a complete halt to all HPG traffic across the Inner Sphere, to be maintained until the Great Houses agreed to Waterly's concessions and allow ComStar become the administrative arm of their governments’
Anyone could see this would never work!
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the other houses would have known about them.
Knowing of their existence as compared to having one are two completely different arguments.
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The Republic came about AFTER the houses got ahold of the HPGs.
So they are able to gain control over them way into the future but they are not allowed to some years earlier?
Sorry but no I cannot see how this would work?
Again another black hole in the game world as it was never truly explained.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/17/20 03:49 AM
66.74.60.165
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Explain what? You said the invasion wasn't logical. I told you why I agreed, After that, there was a long set of posts screaming that the IS couldn't handle it. Then I hear the Mongol ways would allow 4 clans to invade for the right to rule them all. Yet that is exactly what wouldn't happen. Now. Hopefully this is simple enough to end this issue. There is nothing more to explain on this subject.
Again, trying to favor the FS. Best look again. The DC had a spy that could have gotten them the information they needed to run the HPGs. So no. Not in the hands of Hanse Davion. In the hands of Takashi and Theodore. And let's not forget Thomas was part of Comstar as well. So it would stand he would have had the knowledge already. Hanse is 3rd to last in this aspect.
Maybe the 50 regiments of Star League mechs didn't say anything about them hording League tech? They could build warship engines without any issues. They had their own jumpships that no one else had any clue of how the inside of the design looked like. Yeah. I guess the sneak suits would be the only thing that would show this.
I guess they could gain control over the HPGs. I mean their time machines were working great, so why not be able to do something before you have the ability to run it. Makes pure logical sense. What a laugh. And again. THEY DID take the HPGs earlier. Just couldn't use them right. Yeah. Another black hole. You just want to continue the failed argument. But then the rest of us don't have the ability to see into the future to change it now.
Maybe they should have dropped a nuke in WWI. Oh wait. They didn't know how to make it until WWII. So what is wrong with this picture?
They should have known how to make nukes back when France ruled England, or during the building of the pyramids. Maybe the cavemen horded that secret and took it to the grave when they died.
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Requiem
04/28/20 06:25 PM
1.158.222.248
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“When the rules no longer hold any validity they must be disregarded.”
The idea that the Clans / the Inner Sphere Great Houses can create vast Empires circa 3050 is laughable.
Even using a WW2 template for the Clan Invasion, in attempting to rewrite the Clan Invasion – due to a lack of confidence in any of the underlying assumptions therefore requiring a complete restructuring of the Game and the Universe it complies with is hard to comprehend.
When one of the major issues that must be considered is what technology is available per world and how this affects the military per world.
Tharkad’s Population 7,000,000,000 in 3061 – socio Industrial Level A
Consider a country today, its population / technology, and then considers using this as a blue print, per say … Germany for example – population (2020 close to) 83,400,000
Thus Tharkad alone is approximately 84 times the size of Germany – then consider Germany’s current military …..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army
then times this by 84 ….. ie. Tharkad alone should have 15,600 conventional fighters if we hold to this assumption ……
Or look at the Terra today 7.8 Billion – Tharkad could be consider to be comparable to Terra today in size of the economy / Industry available …..
This alone would prove the scope available to the inner sphere as to conventional military vehicles – consider adding together the entire world’s military (currently) and you should have a size of Tharkad’s conventional forces available.
Only a whole Touman of an entire Clan should be considered too be able to take a world of this size and even then the damage inflicted to this Clan’s entire Touman should guarantee its destruction.
Currently the only restriction to invasions are the number of ships (Jump and Drop) available
Over time therefore War should have become almost obsolete within the Battletech Universe as only back water worlds who have a low population and a low socio industrial level could be considered a viable target, as any other world with a high population / technology should be able to create a vast conventional military that could fend off any invasion (unless Battlemech Regiments attack forces are in the size of small armies 30 – 40 RCTs or nukes and warships (orbital bombardments) are considered in taking a single world of this size and technology).
The idea that even a technologically advanced culture such as the Clans are able to take and hold such a world as Thakad (similar population size / technology) becomes ludicrous. Only a whole Clan’s Touman can be considered to take a world of this size – and then the idea of governing it, if taken, then becomes impossible unless a minority of the locals assist the Clans and all the Lyran forces have been defeated. (And yet the partisan war would just be starting …..)
Sorry to say but I am no longer convinced as to the argument the Inner Sphere’s and the Clans military could be considered to be so small as given - the idea that a single Clan could take and hold an empire as large as the 3150 maps becomes all but impossible considering their ridiculously small population per Clan.
(Though when attempting to read novels from the 3130’s era I have nothing but contempt – I was unable to read to the end Fortress Republic novel before throwing it at the wall – I have thus come to the conclusion to give up on the history of Jihad onwards)
Thus why I am attempting to re-write the game world into something I can believe in ….
That said I have come to conclusion to re-write the Clans with a SLDF origin story … my alternative to the ‘Clans’ therefore:-
The Clans – If they could be rewritten into another format what would it be? What would you choose?
Their creation:-
Why would people (civilians not soldiers) undertake an exodus and become refugees – ans:- war, economic or environmental;
The Exodus - I cannot understand why would Kerensky would choose only to save his military, and at the same time abandon the people he was promised to protect? Why would the military abandon their homes and their families after they have spent such a considerable amount of time and blood regaining them only to just up and leave? This is completely illogical assumption as to its viability (in my opinion)!
In my opinion there is therefore only two real choices –
First, the exodus should have been people / military form Amaris’ Rim Worlds Republic; or
Second, DURING the Amaris / Kerensky war people from within the Terran Hegemony fled the war…. Were unable to find a new world to settle and thus fled IS for parts unknown.
For me ….
As for Kerensky and the SLDF – pyrrhic victory – they virtually destroyed themselves winning against Amaris. As such they were unable to stave off the ravages of the First Succession war – Kerensky and the SLDF should have gone down fighting within the Hegemony against the Houses, and their attempt to take the throne by force.
Thus (in my opinion), the ‘Clans’ should have come from Amaris and the RWR – which would make more sense given their lack of any humanity and their desire for racial superiority and their use of human ‘slaves’ (Castes other than Warrior) to create their society. Thus the Clans could remain in their current incarnation except for the point of being part of the Rim Worlds rather than being a part of the SLDF.
The decision to Invade then also becomes more plausible – re-establishment of a new Rim Worlds republic – both a political and military objective that can be considered to make some sense. As it makes considerably more sense than the war games the current clans are playing – fighting to be the first to take Terra to become the Il-Clan …..? Politically and militarily, this never really made any real sense to me! Fighting for the sake of fighting shows only how the SLDF completely lost their founding ideals from the egalitarian Star League.
As for individual Clans – I would convert them into Roman Legions – Clan Wolf thus becomes 1st Legion - Clan Wolf – and as for the Il-Khan, this person becomes “Amaris” (in the same way Caesar became a title from a name.)
And the Clans become a single military unit ….. and due to the environmental conditions upon the worlds they currently reside it has become to survive – thus the decision to return to the Inner Sphere to once more re-establish the RWR – to re-colonize their lost worlds – worlds that are more conducive to a prosperous life ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/30/20 05:23 AM
1.158.222.248
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What will this mean for the Universe …..
An Invasion of “Terra” scenario for most invasions would eventuate …..
Thus for any future invasions you would have to actively research your target world as to their Lord’s dedicated military forces that has been built up by on-world manufacturing facilities.
This would therefore require an amendment to the socio economic value A to ?
Where A gives you access to all new Vehicle designs for your house
B the last TRO; …… all the way to the bottom of the list where all you have is a civilian vehicle with an old AC/5 welded onto the back of it ……
And the size of the population will also be used as a way to determine the Infantry per world and their access to support weapon systems
Plus it would also mean all of the Houses / Clans would have to increase the size of their Battlemech units to Army size Groups.
It would also make all raids far more dangerous than previously thought about.
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/30/20 05:23 AM)
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ghostrider
04/30/20 07:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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The DC would not have become a thing had the populations really been considered. It is a realm of conquest from the beginning. If people went on the guerilla side of the conflict, the amount of troops to invade a single world, would have been far more then they would raise and move to attack. This was before mechs were even made.
Considering the numbers of people, the Terran Alliance would have never even tried to keep the colonies in the fold. Population is bad enough, but when you add distances like a single jump to multiple jumps, you just can not even believe you can keep anything by force. Well, not without local support.
The ENTIRE jumpship and dropship designs have to be redone and upgraded to far larger versions, with Warships looking like the average for a jumpship, but far more dropship hardpoints. And with this, the entire HPG network would probably never have been consolidated, as each would be ruler would seize the stations as soon as they started a fight. No call for help would be very helpful in the initial stages at this point. Then false information would help reduce those available as well as increase the arms the revolt would have. Understrength units walking into 'friendly' areas comes to mind.
Supply lines? Yeah. Good luck with that one.
I doubt the IS states would have formed, as there is no real way to enforce any sort of military action against more then one world at a time, and each would be a nightmare with that.
So I would suggest watching how far you go along that route.
It will show you why almost all of the scifi stories with far flung planets isn't as appealing as some would think. And wars would be more raids then full invasions. The numbers needed far exceed what can be moved, and even then, how many will be willing to go from defending their home world to attacking someone else?
Not that it isn't a bad idea. Just one that has issues on it's own.
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Requiem
05/01/20 12:43 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
The DC would not have become a thing had the populations really been considered.
The great houses formed due to economic and self defense treaties – Naval forces (protection from Nuclear Armageddon).
Large Populations require large food production capabilities and as a consequence a large transport capabilities - it also necessitates a Large schooling and healthcare etc.
Thus with any large society they should also have a large military force at the bare minimum infantry and conventional vehicles in proportion with the population of the world.
During the age of the Star League there were legal restrictions as to their size. However with the fall of the Star League every vehicle production business could very easily re-tool to produce military lines and over time these should become massive for highly socio industrialized worlds (A) and a reduction in size (quality of vehicles etc.)from B to C etc.
The idea that the only true military force is that of the Battlemech cannot be considered to be factual. (even though ever book takes this as fact!).
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Considering the numbers of people, the Terran Alliance would have never even tried to keep the colonies in the fold.
Naval power has always been and always will be the king of the Battlefield, and as such they always had the largest Navy.
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Population is bad enough, but when you add distances like a single jump to multiple jumps, you just can not even believe you can keep anything by force. Well, not without local support.
It comes down to the technology and the size of the population of the world – as well as the size of the invading force.
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The ENTIRE jumpship and dropship designs have to be redone and upgraded to far larger versions, with Warships looking like the average for a jumpship, but far more dropship hardpoints.
To maintain an effective economy within the inner sphere the number of Jumpships / Jumpship production facilities must be increased by an exponential amount.
The HPG network is a main stain of the universe – economic / military development – they cannot be removed.
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I doubt the IS states would have formed, as there is no real way to enforce any sort of military action against more then one world at a time
Against highly developed worlds – given the level of Jumpships available within the current battletech universe – this would be all but impossible – against Periphery worlds with little to no population / development – these become viable targets.
This is the point given the current technology 20th Century / early 21st Century technology upon every world at a minimum – if there is a sizeable population there WILL be a sizeable military backed up with a sizable conventional armor / VTOL / Air with regiments into the hundreds. Why – every world must be self sufficient – thus taking the logic to its natural end they must also have a massive infrastructure to support that population.
i.e. If they have an earth similar population of 7 Billion then they must also have all the industries that earth does right now! – add them all together and it becomes clear as to the size of an earth relative world has right now – the only questions would be as to the number of BattleMech units they would also have.
In all reality I believe that every world, with a sizeable population and a high socio-industrial level, should have their own …
Battlemech Manufacturing facility
Jumpship Manufacturing Facility
Some kind of orbiting space station to facilitate trade with large Dropships that are unable to land on the surface of the world they orbit.
It just does not make sense that worlds (within the Battletech Universe) whose populations are comparable with Earth (now) do not have access to these facilities.
Thus in all reality the Battletech universe’s military as given are incredibly under strength.
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I doubt the IS states would have formed, as there is no real way to enforce any sort of military action against more then one world at a time, and each would be a nightmare with that.
Again – economic reasons would force individual worlds to form an empire as well as a strong Navy. (Protection from the other realm’s Navy).
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So I would suggest watching how far you go along that route.
How can we not go down this route? When you have a population of 7 Billion on one world – this is comparable to Earth now – how can we not say this world MUST have a massive industry base to keep it operational – thus it MUST have a vast Army to protect it which also has a vast armor / VTOL / fighter support base (as we have now). Q.E.D.
Thus the majority of every world which was attacked during the clan Invasion could have kicked them off given their own forces on their world if they just use 1 galaxy per world? In all reality the entire games core basis must be held up to and say this just does not make sense, the idea that the limited fighting forces as per each House book is all they have becomes a ludicrous concept. What these numbers represent is what they can transport given the minimal number of jumpships available – it does in no way represent what is on each world.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/01/20 01:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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If worlds are self sufficient, wouldn't that tend to run counter to needing off world support or supplies?
The need for an interstellar trade fleet wouldn't really be needed, except for sales of thins you have extra of. So with a good defense network/navy, there is no real need to rely on others.
With each house, there has been several times where a civil war/reunification war was fought, and this would allow large amounts of 'independent' worlds to throw off the government that isn't on the world. Feudalism only goes so far, which it something I think the game really doesn't dwell into. The unification into large realms would fall apart under it's own governmental weight.
With the canon game, the explanation of why each world doesn't have battlemech factories is plausible. Having them wiped out, and couldn't keep them rebuilt does make sense.
Dropships might be an issue, where Jumpships would definitely be an issue. The elements for the F-K core would be the down fall of keeping a jumpship yard in all systems. You would need to change the resources for each system to allow such a 'luxury'.
Didn't say don't go down the road. Just watch how far it goes. As stated, there would really be no way to get the forces to other worlds in the numbers and timely enough to really do much more then just destroy the factories and livelihoods of those living on that world. How many men stormed Normandy, and it was still a blood bath. And that wasn't the only place there were battles going on. And here is were the game has it right. It is very difficult to defend against an enemy that can get their bulk of forces down about anywhere on a world. Yes, some worlds are limited, such as a lack of landmass, but in the most part, using Terra, you have plenty of places you can get down forces. Then again, there are plenty of places a defender can hide.
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Requiem
05/01/20 03:09 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
If worlds are self sufficient, wouldn't that tend to run counter to needing off world support or supplies?
Behemoth – Dropship – Mass 100,000 - Cargo – 74,972 tons (68,013,454Kg)
An average person can eat 2.5 to 4.5 Kg per day – thus to even supply enough food for 50% of the population of a single Earth like world at 7,000,000,000 people world for one day @ 2.5 KG per person you would require 129 Behemoths per day and 100% of the world thus 258 per day.
Can you actually say there is any combinations of worlds that can manufacture and supply this amount and have it delivered?
Thus, this becomes an absurd concept.
All colonized worlds must be close to 100% self sufficiency when it comes to food – if not the excess population must be transported to a world than can support them – that is unless you decide to allow the excess population to just starve.
Interstellar trade (given the limited number of Jumpships and dropships available) can be said to be used to transport luxury goods only (given the limited amount of cargo any one ship can transport).
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Feudalism only goes so far
Yes – most Dukedoms (like those of the FS Marches) could quite easily declare independence.
If taken to its logical conclusion there could have been about 100 fiefdoms the size of the Isle of Skye all throughout the Inner Sphere – though again the trump card of the Navy comes to mind, for those that are capable of producing a larger navy than their neighbors they could readily conquer them and expand in size. Thus reducing the Initial 100 down to something more manageable of 14 to 15 Dukedoms.
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The unification into large realms would fall apart under it's own governmental weight.
Not so – Historically the bureaucracy on each world would just have to report to its regional control world and that to the central command world – it is just two more levels – it should be simple – especially when you consider their entire government is run by computers not by people (just as we have now)
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With the canon game, the explanation of why each world doesn't have battlemech factories is plausible. Having them wiped out, and couldn't keep them rebuilt does make sense.
Completely disagree – even with late 20th / early 21st Century Technology we can create mega factories that can create massive numbers of vehicles on a production line as well as the computers that go into them
Creating a BattleMech assembly line is not that much different – the only real problem is the exotic materials used to manufacture them – however if substitutes could be found then the idea of Mass production per world becomes a reality.
This is the only limiter – materials.
And this is why every mega corporation would have their own survey fleet looking for every find they can so that they can send in the miners to get it.
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Dropships might be an issue, where Jumpships would definitely be an issue. The elements for the F-K core would be the down fall of keeping a jumpship yard in all systems. You would need to change the resources for each system to allow such a 'luxury'.
Then how were they able to do this during the Star League Age?
Over time every House should be able to manufacture to achieve the pre-Star League Numbers – by 3150 it should have become a reality. But what we got was something far more depressing a Science fiction game without the science fiction.
This is just it – every major world should have its own production / repair yard built into their space-station above the world – Commerce – to transfer people and goods – with a constant stream of shuttles from the planet to the station.
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As stated, there would really be no way to get the forces to other worlds in the numbers and timely enough to really do much more then just destroy the factories and livelihoods of those living on that world.
Not so – every major world invaded would have to be on the same scope as the Terra invasion (a Normandy) – backwater worlds would require far less to invade.
Finally the game can evolve from small to the massive!
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It is very difficult to defend against an enemy that can get their bulk of forces down about anywhere on a world.
And Rommel is once more proven correct – you must not let them get off the beaches.
As for hiding – they would have to take out all satellites first – then there are the massive number of AWACs / Radar that can pinpoint a LZ – that is unless someone decides to create a stealth drop ship.
This is the true reality of the game – there must be massive conventional forces on worlds that have a high population and a high socio-economic rating – they must have a massive infrastructure to keep the people fed etc (requiring a massive logistics trucks trains ships etc.) so by extension there must also be a massive conventional military (armor / VTOL / fighter).
Q.E.D.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/01/20 10:39 PM
1.158.222.248
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What is required now is a standardization factor based upon population and socio-economic rating to determine minimum conventional forces available ….. given that the Inner Sphere has been in a state of almost constant war for a extremely long period of time I believe this should be considered to high …. Especially if some worlds have a national conscription of all individuals between the ages of 18 to 23 – and then they are placed on a reserve status for a further 5 years (thus if required the world has the possibility of increasing their military’s infantry size quite considerably – overnight).
Each world must have a degree of uniqueness but they also must have a standard army as dictated by their Liege Lord who demands of their Aristocracy a standing army to defend their world in the event of an attack – and who can defend their world until reinforcements can arrive.
This is the true missing army of the Inner Sphere and that is somehow overlooked by the present TPTB – every world must have their own self defense force, the question is the size of their TO&E – and their access to available technology?
Each individual world must be considered unique … however, each Great House must have a list of vehicles they have access to – this should them be uses as the basis for each worlds technology with more recent technological developments allowed to only A and B socio economic worlds and every 5 years (or there about) be allowed to reduced socio economic worlds and so on and so forth.
The size of every worlds military should also be a factor of their population.
This will also have a unique side effect when it comes to the clan invasion – many more clans must participate in the invasion however a reduced number of worlds can be invaded per invasion wave as when it comes to an invasion of a large world with a high socio industrial rating an entire Clans touman must be applied to the invasion of this one world ( as per the Invasion of Terra).
Also when it comes to invading Capital worlds – DC Luthien – the two clans complete Toumans must be used for the invasion – where the invasion will last over a year to fight from beginning to end …..
However the basic differences for the IS –
Lyrans – more larger tracked tanks – panzer etc are used
FWL – move overall vehicles – all size etc.
CC – more aerospace / VTOL than any other House – most advanced fighters
FS – standard number / size – standard mix of everything
DC – more smaller hover are utilized
Periphery – more smaller easy to maintain vehicles (ICE) – older fighter / vehicle classes
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/03/20 06:26 PM
1.158.222.248
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… and thus the entire clan invasion becomes highly questionable as well as the entire games history into question, when you consider that the entire forces available to any of the Houses is just their own regular military and any available mercenary forces - The idea that the World’s Lord and Government of a planet would not have a standing military each, given that they have been in a state of constant war since the fall of the Star League, is quite without doubt ludicrous.
It then comes down to the size of any military force that each could have and that could be considered realistic given the worlds overall population, socio-economic situation and economy’s GDP and the wealth of the Lord in question.
Given an earth standard population of 7bn and a similar economy it is quite realistic the Government of this Battletech World they could quite conceivably be maintaining a massive conventional fighting forces – that somehow never made it to the canon Clan invasion battlefield and just rolled over when the standing army was pushed off world (on every world that was invaded?) makes little to no sense.
The entire game-system of determining a viable world and the forces used to invade and conquer any world must now be reassessed.
As is it is very hard to believe such a very small military per house would even be considered viable.
The only way the Battletech scenario could be considered is if the Inner Sphere is reduced in size to that of the size of Lyrans – Skye province – EVERY world has undergone multiple nuclear strikes in which no major cities remain and the population of EVERY world has been reduced considerably – thus the lack of technology (back to 1960’s in 3020’s and by 3050 and increase to 1990’s to early Star League (depending on the world) technology and by 3060 can we say a return to Star League era tech for every Inner Sphere world?
Sorry to say but I am now lost when it comes to the size and composition of any worlds true military strength.
New Avalon - Just over 7bn in people – A rated (except for raw materials) – and somehow it only has such a very small standing army - 3 RCTs at best?
Luthien – 7bn people at the time of the clans invasion – all A rated (except for raw materials and Agricultural dependence) – and when the clans invade the war was only Mech to Mech? – sorry to say but I find this entire scenario now completely implausible – where are the massive civilian transport vehicle manufacturing businesses who keep the flow of the economy moving with all the goods and services required by a population of 7bn who at the same time would be producing conventional military vehicles?
Is there something wrong with the core concept of the game with regards to the small amount of military units available?
To me the answer is yes – the number of units available to every world due to their population and technology must have been included into the game – the lack of it is now a huge black hole that I cannot reconcile with.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/04/20 12:17 AM
66.74.60.165
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Starting to drift back into the developers didn't have a clue for anything. This is where it starts having issues.
As it is very likely, the developers did in fact think about the numbers of people that would be required for a real invasion and hostile take over, the fact had to be toned down to make the game playable.. Every sci fi game to date has ignored the fact that when under attack, more then just the reserves would come to fight.
Now as this is about mechs, not sludging thru hundreds of thousands of infantry, it is understandable that they overlook that fact. The game does have militias and standing local armies, but they tend to be on more important worlds.
The fact that the supply chain is lacking real numbers shows why dropships and jumpships are just not right for the economy, much less the military strikes. Case in point. The books says that Hespertus does not grow enough food for the Defiance factories, much less any other population on that world. A real siege would stop the flow of needed food, and water, as the planet is supposed to be dry, would be a prime reason any naval weapon based platform should be found there at the very least.
There are supposed to be agriculture worlds scattered around the IS just to produce food for other worlds. This sounds off, as the cost for transporting such food would cause worlds that buy it to have outrageous prices on them.
With the recent rash of armed conflicts in the world, a lot of militaries are having an issue filling their ranks. Now put that in this situation. People are trying to work their lands or other jobs to feed their families. Getting into the military is more likely to get you pulled off world to guard someone elses lands. Even militias and such get moved from time to time. It wasn't just the concentrated weakness that does this.
Rebuilding after a raid is hard enough, but to have a full blown fight go on is even harder. Governments have more then just defense they have to deal with through out their entire nation. Taking out construction vehicles every time they show up to do the work starts the chain. Supplies being destroyed and such. With high tech, taking out those experienced in rebuilding comes to mind. It isn't just the military or ruling houses that murder people because they don't or do want something done. A rival business may well do so, in order to force their company to get the contract, as the other one obviously can't get it done. This isn't a fantasy game where everyone rides unicorns. Solaris is an extreme example, but something that happens on all worlds.
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ghostrider
05/04/20 12:32 AM
66.74.60.165
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The example of mega factories being built doesn't fit in the canon universe. Or maybe it does. Try and find a new Yugo. Oh yeah. That factory was blown up in their civil war, and couldn't be rebuilt.
With sites being nuked, you can't just rebuild what was still intact.
Even normal bombs and naval weapons, the site could well be beyond redemption. And that isn't even getting into destruction of mine and other resources needed.
The SL needed new resources, so those worlds near Terra should have been hard to rebuild without outside sources. Well when your supplies run into a trickle, there is only so much you can do with the little you have. And as all feudal societies tended to do, the political and rich people got their stuff worked on first. And I am not talking real defenses, but more of the gold armor sitting in the display case concepts.
Now going with the need for more infantry and such to take and hold a world. How many 7 billion pop worlds are you going to take and hold? What ratio of infantry to civilians do you need? 1 in ten means 700 million soldiers stuck on that world. 1 in a thousand? Would that be too little? How many hostile worlds can you really hold like that?
With this example of 10 to 1. You have lost 1/10th of your population to just garrison the other world. Not soldiers, because I seriously doubt you have that many on your entire world before hand. The training alone would say this isn't going to be the case.
Which is why I said to be careful.
3 RCTs on New Avalon is like that as they are well behind the lines, with the troops needed more elsewhere.
But that is the garrison units. What isn't there is units rotating in for refit, or R&R, as well as just being moved to a new world. Training happens there as well. So 6 RCTs worth of troops would be more likely.
And that very issue you were harping on with the clans is very true with rebuilding the houses. Supply lines will be hit and hit hard. The enemy that did the hit is going to know you need certain parts. And will make sure you don't get them as best they can. Try and build a city without power, or heavy equipment. Mechs can only do so much. And that is IF they have hands.
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Requiem
05/04/20 05:14 AM
1.158.230.207
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the fact had to be toned down to make the game playable
1. Battleforce;
2. Creating a game whereby your unit is part of a larger War;
Both are a viable course of action.
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Every sci fi game to date has ignored the fact that when under attack, more then just the reserves would come to fight.
Warhammer? Satr Wars? Even D&D? …..
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Now as this is about mechs, not sludging thru hundreds of thousands of infantry, it is understandable that they overlook that fact.
What happened to the 4th Succession War?
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The game does have militias and standing local armies, but they tend to be on more important worlds.
And this makes sense … how?
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Hesperus does not grow enough food for the Defiance factories
Population 3025 – 55,000 – this is quite understandable considering the population of an entire planet is less than that of a small town. The majority of people would be working in the plant, there is next to nil working in the field / food processing. As such they could easily stockpile massive quantities of food in the event of a siege.
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a lot of militaries are having an issue filling their ranks
Dependent upon each world’s individual economy …. Plus their law – National Service is applicable to many countries, so why not on many worlds as this would make common sense when you have been at war for the past 200+ years …..
Thus each GM must make this call on a per world basis ….
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Rebuilding after a raid is hard enough.
SOP – however with a massive conventional military the probability of a raid will decrease considerably.
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The example of mega factories being built doesn't fit in the canon universe. Or maybe it does.
With 7,000,000,000 people on one world – explain how they build vehicles for the people of the entire world or how about a cannery for food even? An earth equivalent world say otherwise.
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With sites being nuked, you can't just rebuild what was still intact.
When was that last nuke used? Over 100 plus years – so this doesn’t hold water!
How many ithr worlds have the technology so all you need to do is just rebuild it – it would take the entire IS (every world and every city and every school / university) to be destroyed at the same time to get this situation – and as it never occurred it cannot be considered a viable scenario.
Also not all aristocrats were me first – the people last – many looked after their people before themselves
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Now going with the need for more infantry and such to take and hold a world. How many 7 billion pop worlds are you going to take and hold?
How many did the Clans take or at least try to take? Where was the logic then? It is quite easy to say you could have 100’s of infantry and conventional armor units and thousands of conventional fighters / bombers / VTOLs on these worlds – so really good luck on even attempting this ….
Which is why the game has an issue when this is looked at carefully.
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3 RCTs on New Avalon is like that as they are well behind the lines, with the troops needed more elsewhere.
And so you don’t believe a capitol world should be adequately garrisoned?
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Training happens there as well. So 6 RCTs worth of troops would be more likely.
So far away from the front lines – sorry but I do not think so – R&R need to be close enough so that they can be sent in ASAP in the event of a full scale invasion – and not 3 months away by Jump-Ship.
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And that very issue you were harping on with the clans is very true with rebuilding the houses. Supply lines will be hit and hit hard. The enemy that did the hit is going to know you need certain parts. And will make sure you don't get them as best they can.
Isn’t this the reason why you have marines – as well as a navy with mass aerospace fighter protection – and when on ground this is why you have the army to protect the heavy equipment!
So try and attack – and any house unit should have an adequate defense depending upon its importance.
This is just it the reality of mass populations and socio economic conditions must be considered – it creates a void when it is not considered for many worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/04/20 12:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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Battleforce seemed to be the answer to Warhammer for making large battles playable, faster. Playing the original BattleTech is far more fun.
Battleforce is more armor and weapons then movement for deciding who wins.
That is correct. Warhammer, Star Wars, D&D, as well as others don't come close to really showing what population does when under attack. Even without direct physical violence, they can resist an enemy. Granted, not as effective as using a weapon, but still works. The 'dirty' war is what comes from the population calculations. Might well be why most games stay away from that.
The 4th war had mechs being the big planet takers. It looks like they realized the CC worlds would not sit still without boots on the ground, and mechs just don't cut crowd control.
How does the world work? Money and politics. Look at the budgets for countries and see just how much is spent on defense, and where most of that is sitting at.
As one example suggests, how do you stockpile food, when it isn't grown in quantities that can be shipped out as such? So 55,000 behemoth ships required at least once a year if not more to move the food, if you can find it. No scout jumpships can hande the behemoth, so that cuts out more then a few jumpships. So do the math and make up the Defiance manifest of what they had and need. Simplicity ignore facts, but there are times when it has to in order to make it playable.
Each game master can have advanced combat robots and skip mechs entirely if they want to. But this isn't a discussion about that. This is a discussion about logic being in the forefront of wars. There is no real way to enforce every person serving the military mandate. The sheer size of some worlds would make that impossible, as the budget really doesn't allow for that. The cost in weapons alone for infantry would screw them up. But actual budgets don't exist in the math being done here. The government has so much money popping out their backsides that they can afford to buy what ever they want. Which isn't real.
Raids will happen, no matter how big your army is. It may not be your city/world, but it will happen. And once they have to hit you, and can't do it without losing a lot of units, they will resort to more simple means. Nukes and dropping meteors, after taking out those defenses comes to mind. Infiltration and shutting down detection is another. Bombing those facilities if they have to. There would be total war, not the limited stuff of the game. Replacing the tech prevents a lot of it from being destroyed. And the people working it? Even more expendable.
How does say the tribal African countries rebuild, or even build a mega factory without outside help? If just relying on their own people and resources, they can't keep something going, as they will be raids from others. If nothing else, just to make sure you don't have it. This is not saying they are incapable of attempting it, but the fact is, they are still in the war tribe idealism. It is the same thing as the rest of the world, but more violent then others.
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ghostrider
05/04/20 12:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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Another point on the factory situation. How many car manufacturers are in the world today? How many are in direct competition of each other?
How many would not continue to rebuild factories in areas that they would be constantly damaged and need security to try and prevent this? None that I know of. They would build in a safer location and ship in the product. Charge more for having less costs. Sounds like business?
Ah, even around 3025, there was not a time of a hundred years that a nuke wasn't used. And with the idea that all the planets would have a much larger military base, would mean invaders would have to cut the numbers down, otherwise they would not have the troops to hit a second world. Sounds familiar?
A 100k invasion force is alls you had to take over a country(world). No way to reinforce it, as that is all you have to attack with. Maybe even defenders in there. So one world requires more then that to take, and yet, you have 4 more worlds to take, just to keep your world safe. There is your numbers game you want.
And even with the greater numbers, the idea that all of them are guarding only one facility gives rise to illogical deployment as well as the increase in raids as you are so far away from targets, they can take and destroy it quickly and be gone before you can get there. And not all raiders are from outside of your governments reach.
Losing information starts resulting in the noble elite rise in the universe. Those with it, are less likely to spread it around, as it is a powerful tool you can use to become the leader. Teachers become harder and harder to find and employ. They become a target, so your enemy doesn't have your level of tech. A slow bleed can happen, though as said in other threads, specialized tech is the hardest to stop, as no one will be willing to help others maintain it.
Again. ALL games have issues when you look at just how many troops needed for occupation in an area that has a hatred for an invader. The question of how many worlds can you take isn't about the clans or the game. You wanted to use pop numbers to determine defense. Now show us where that is more preferable over the glossing over them to make the game fun.
Also, with this, the ENTIRE history of the game would be changed from the moment the first colonist landed on the first world outside of the Sol system. So the game's setting would be completely different.
With every world making everything they need, why would they want to have a ruler above them, when they could take the spot themselves?
What is adequately garrisoned? Keeping the enemy from penetrating that far is a better idea, as that means other worlds don't require the adequate garrison. Meaning more troops for the front defense line as well as invading the enemy. This doesn't support trying to suggest more defenses forces will allow the game to be the same, or even fun.
It was questioned why vehicles were in huge numbers, but mech on mech action seems the main attraction. No one really wants to chew thru a dozen tank companies, just to reach a single goal. They want mech on mech action. I don't like that idea, but agree with the concept. To hit a target, a lance on lance of mech is more fun then playing the grinding game of lance of mechs on a company of vehicles.
Having massive armies would be great, but the costs are why you don't for the most part. Then add in trying to keep all worlds up to 'par' with tech and even manufacturing as well as other services makes it even more unlikely, as rebuilding any losses means even more money that you don't have. And without running rebellions from the taxes required to get those funds, there really isn't much of a way to do this.
On paper, it sounds great. I do agree that there should be more defensive units, but without adding in the reality of what it costs, it goes to the other extreme of the problem. Not enough, to far to many.
Again. Consider the number of troopers per population ratio. Not to invade, but defend.
After a while, the money spent for a huge military gets questioned, especially when company, not enemy, propaganda takes hold.
Why should you suffer the station wagon, when your neighbor has the lush new SUV that self drives? Demand your new SUV today.
This alone causes so much disruption, and it is the very thing companies do. This is what you wanted for the clans, but yet isn't being figured in here.
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Requiem
05/04/20 05:37 PM
1.158.188.5
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Battleforce = Macro and Battletech = Micro;
Battle for Terra – how is this considered not to be a viable game, when what I am considering is that every world’s battle must now be considered from this point of view?
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Warhammer, Star Wars, D&D, as well as others don't come close to really showing what population does when under attack.
Sorry but I disagree – Role-playing games can easily have this situation – miniatures can also have this situation when you take it into a city tech type (or other) game. Just create a new game piece called unarmed / armed citizen and move them around the board –running from / to the battle in the same war infantry move then just come up with some house rules for them.
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Might well be why most games stay away from that.
WOB – Nuclear, Chemical, Reeducation Camps, etc
Caleb – and what he did
Yes they really do stay away from that!
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The 4th war
Atlas – how many battles show the movement of armor and infantry and not just the Mechs
This is what is lacking – this Atlas should have been the template for all future books when discussing future battles – why was this model dropped – too difficult to produce?
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How does the world work? Money and politics. Look at the budgets for countries and see just how much is spent on defense, and where most of that is sitting at.
3-5% of GDP is not a difficult question to answer – it is also not difficult if you look at the population / socio economic factor of a world and make a determinant based upon a rough template based upon the House you come under and the types of vehicles that you can have (templates in the back of the 4th SW Atlas have them) – Infantry 1 to 2% of population are your standing army is also readily quantifiable – then placing them near cities / important sites is also easy to determine and place on the board.
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Defiance
Hesperus population - 55,000 people x 4.5 Kg (max food) x 365 days = 90,337,500Kg per year;
One Behemoth = 68,013,454Kg;
So all I need is two per year if they are completely unable to make their own food – or I move farmers to the world and set up a dedicated food transport system and hey presto after a short period of time they are completely self sufficient.
Which could have been done very easily on the day it opened for business. So why it took 200+ years to set up a dedicated food system for this facility is the real question that needs to be answered.
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The government has so much money popping out their backsides that they can afford to buy what ever they want. Which isn't real.
This is why you create templates to simulate a hypothetical world within each of the Great Houses as what they do / do not have access to …..
1 – 2 % of population given = standing infantry; then divide this by the number of people in a Regiment = No. of regiments – then divide this by three and this will give you the number of frontline units in comparison to support units you have of the entire world – then assign an equal amount to every important city / site.
Armor / VTOL / Aerospace – as per template you created for your House unit based upon population of world / socio economic values …. Not that difficult!
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Nukes and dropping meteors, after taking out those defenses comes to mind.
WOB Jihad era onwards – prior to this was only used (Chemical) in the CC – so unless you want the entire IS as well as ComStar against your unit, you will not use this tactic.
Plus there are rules of war when it comes to civilians and the destruction of civilian property.
It comes down to the era you are in and the level of damage you wish to inflict – which is a players / GM discretion.
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Periphery
The periphery rebuild has always been difficult – lack of education; spare parts etc – look at how the 3 world operates now as an example. Suggest you also look at China’s one belt one road policy to how they are assisting African countries modernize they are assisting many Countries over the world to modernize / assisting with governance / heath-care etc – so why not the other great houses – CC Sun Tzu and MoC is an example.
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Business Market Viability
Market viability – Companies move their production facilities to where they can generate least costs – maximum profit.
The same can be said of the IS – major companies will move their facilities to worlds that offer them financial incentive to do so – or the Government decided to build and own their own and retains them as such – rather than selling them off which has become a trend in the last 30-40 years to gain quick revenue.
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invaders would have to cut the numbers down, otherwise they would not have the troops to hit a second world.
If you want to go down this scenario that is your prerogative – me I would bypass for a more realistic objective that I could take and hold. Unless you want to put in the maximum effort for just one world that is.
As for raiders – they will now have to contend with the local forces – considering the size of some of the Lyran Tanks this could end up being quite lethal.
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Losing information
Consider the number of libraries established and availability of information in the star league.
Then consider the number of world that were destroyed in the Succession wars and the number of Worlds that were never touched – Capitol worlds even, the loss of information as espoused by the game CANNOT be considered viable there are just too many schools / universities / business training facilities on too many worlds that were never hit during any world for the entirety of all knowledge on every wold to just deteriorate over time, this is just not plausible, it is not possible in an interstellar society with thousands of worlds unless you bomb EVERY world / space station / warship / Jump-ship back to next to nothing – restricting access to information because you fear the populace is a CC way of doing things – it is not the way of the FWL, FS, LC as it is bad for business and only hurts the realm in the long run.
A better educated society has a greater chance of improving the economy, being more stable, producing better weapon systems and establishing a higher functioning military.
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What is adequately garrisoned?
It will now require gamers to actually think about their next move – rather than just blindly rushing in – they will now how to actually research their target and work out in advance if they have the forces to get the job done – or they come up with a strategic plan as a work around.
“No one really wants to chew thru a dozen tank companies, just to reach a single goal.”
Then work out a plan so you don’t have to! Or create a weapon that has made all vehicles other than Mechs / Aerospace fighters / Elementals obsolete!
Otherwise recognize that on worlds with high populations / high socio economic factors that it will be undeniable that you will have to face massive numbers of conventional forces.
Or just stick to the idea that the Universe is meant to be Fun and in no way should it ever be realistic and we should just ignore anything that comes close being rational as fun trumps rational every time.
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Having massive armies would be great, but the costs are why you don't for the most part. Then add in trying to keep all worlds up to 'par' with tech and even manufacturing as well as other services makes it even more unlikely, as rebuilding any losses means even more money that you don't have.
1 to 2% of GDP is too much money to establish a dedicated military force – and is too much to maintain and keep operational – then how does every major country on Earth do so today? The same would hold true for every world within the Inner Sphere and beyond – population / socio-economic development = 1-2% and even up to 5% military with weapons as per their level of technology.
This is not an unreasonable cost that every world cannot accommodate eg. NATO requirements.
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updated technology
The costs of updating technology – Canon stated that the costs of establishing Clan tech was so prohibitive no one could do it within the IS as an answer as to why the IS could not create Clan weapon tech.
Sorry but I find this to be trite – Yes every House would initiate such an initiative even to the point of going into debt with a massive bond rollout – over time economies of scale would kick in, especially when every fighter, vehicle and mech has become an omni weapon system – maintenance / procurement costs would decrease over time – Large initial outlay, however over time (up to 50 years economically) the massive savings would make this a viable economic / military option for any Inner Sphere House.
So in any real IS setting every Great House should have acquired a new SUV – what was suggested within Cannon has no real place in a sane economy / military.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 02:23 AM
66.74.60.165
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You want larger games that take days to make a single move, that is your choice. Most of the players would like to end a combat in the night they started in. So having 2 million people per side singularly moving isn't fun for most of us.
Games may well stay away from dealing with the dirty side of war, is not talking about nukes and such. It is talking about torture(interrogation), assassination, and other things that most consider completely horrible. Though assassination seems to be something video games love, ie sniper games.
There were a few that showed infantry and armor. I want to say two were pure infantry and armor, no mechs. Start playing the RPG if you want to get into the infantry actions. As a whole, most aren't fond of armor fights, infantry is much lower on the scale. Armored infantry might be worth it, as they can take out a mech.
Where money goes was about the need of troops, verse where they actually go to guard things. The rich and politically graced get the troops to guard them, long before those that actually do the work, like farm. Now with your 5%, you had better hope you are making a lot, because a few million just isn't going to cut it.
I love this next one. Why didn't Defiance create water on a world that was water poor to begin with? Maybe it used the iceburg method to get more there, and when that company was destroyed, they didn't have any alternatives. So being self sufficient isn't possible. Unless you know of some way to turn dust into water that we don't know about, it isn't that simple.
And maybe there was a chain going, and it was blown to hell as well. Not just the ships, but the worlds where the items come from. Maybe checking out some of the countries that are always in some sort of civil disorder might explain why they can't rebuild.
But then that would take the argument out of the conversation quickly. Better just ignore that and continue to take pot shots to see what might stick.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 02:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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This is why you create templates to simulate a hypothetical world within each of the Great Houses as what they do / do not have access to …..
I asked for something like this from a single company and it was refused to even attempt to do this. So why is it being brought up like it wasn't covered before? Show us the numbers for Defiance before suggesting it is easy and needs to be done with all the worlds. Honestly, I don't know even a tenth of the worlds in the game.
Trying to twist things again? This is not a unit sending meteors and such against other worlds, but the full planetary governments looking to make life easier on their troops. This very thing is why the huge armies were taken down with nukes and such. The high and mighty concept of not using them, is great, when you don't have the enemy wiping out everything you care about. You talk assassinations and such, yet wouldn't use a nuke against an incoming ship in space? I really doubt that. Your way of life is ending. You said the populations would rise up against an invader, well here it is. You need to take the world to avoid future attacks on your world. You can't do it in a fight as this is making it sound like. You don't have 3 to 1. You are lucky to have 1 to 1. Superior tactics can only do so much. It seems extreme, but dictators would think nothing of wiping out populations that could stop them from gaining more power. The IS would never have formed beyond the Terran Alliance. They found out that very issue when they tried to keep the planets in their fold. They did not have the numbers of troops to even try. Gee. Maybe reading that again might explain why they got away from the need of such high numbers. The Amaris war should explain the rest.
I would answer the China thing, but that is real world politics.
The whole answer to companies moving assets to make money is the very reason why all worlds don't have everything. You answered it, yet couldn't figure it out yourself? The question to why all worlds didn't have every sort of industry on it? No profit in it.
It isn't realistic to want to destroy someone's ability to destroy your forces easily? Take and hold means a full fledge fight, and that means only one world could ever be your target. That does not allow you to expand thru defending yourself, or even being the aggressor. So the only thing left is to surrender to the first enemy that comes at you. That is realistic. It is the very reason you try and get allies, as you can not go one on one much, much less take on more.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 02:56 AM
66.74.60.165
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Losing information isn't always about the enemy of your nation restricting access to that data. The powerful people wanting to rule would start keeping things like how to make a laser rifle out of the publics hands. Then restrict it to certain people, and eventually make it only available to their own business. Once that gets taken out or a virus destroys the information, then what? The information was removed from the library by YOUR OWN commands. It doesn't happen over night. But it eventually does when dictators come into power. Chaos promotes plenty of dictators. All ready to remove your ability to make war. So no weapons, you lose.
The game Battle Tech was not meant to be an economic nightmare game. It was meant to take stompy robots against your friends and hope by the end of the night, they aren't upset you stomped them of vis versa. If you want to start a full economic set up and such, then go for it. To be honest, you should always be reconing the enemy for an easier way of doing things. But there comes a time when you have to hit or get hit. For some things, you don't have the sit and wait choice.
Maybe you are looking for a game of accountants battling it out for the next promotion. BattleTech isn't it.
They do gloss over things a lot, and the main things that upsets me is them saying this works for us, but not for you.
Massive armies and the 2 percent isn't the same thing. Also, how many countries with the larger armies aren't in debt?
And now comes the nasty part. What is large enough for your lands maybe more then someone elses can afford, or be laughed at as a joke, as that covers only part of their army. Not all worlds are equal. Some were formed from those wanting to be away from the rat race. Others were done on pure profit margins. Neither would do well in the arms race. Pure profit would simply find a new area to exploit, as the cost of doing business in a war doesn't work well for non violent businesses.
Not sure why the clan tech issue is being brought up again. No one is arguing the bs of this scenario. This is the very sort of subject that annoys me. We can do it, but you can't. And if you have the option, then the next wave will have to be something bigger then the last one, as there is only so many super weapons that can be had, and once you can destroy a planet with one, then the threat tends to cease very quickly. Just destroy the worlds that are launching the attacks. The bigger gun concept runs out of the next bigger gun quickly.
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Requiem
05/05/20 07:34 AM
1.158.188.5
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You want larger games that take days to make a single move, that is your choice.
Question, how was the original invasion of Terra fought and how about invading the WoB held Terra?
Key battles – key units.
Plus you can use battleforce for the larger battles if you want ….
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Games may well stay away from dealing with the dirty side of war
What is the point of an AC2 other than as a sniper – plus how else are IS infantry supposed to engage elementals except at a reasonable range with a sniper rifle or a shoulder mounted MRM (Inferno)
Nukes / Chemical weapons are not part of the darker side of war?
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Infantry and armor
They are included in the game – time to get used to their existence – or ask TPTB to create a weapon that killed off Armor and conventional forces (Infantry/armor/VTOL/Fighter – bomber – recon prop engine);
Plus Infantry - time to create your own (House) rules as I did to provide a greater flexibility on the battle-field – more types more movement)
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Now with your 5%, you had better hope you are making a lot, because a few million just isn't going to cut it.
For an earth relative world of 7,000,000,000 people – and remember GDP increases at about 2 -3 % per year (though it can go backwards, but it is extremely rare)
Google – GDP of the world – 2019 – $US 86,598.83 Billion - 5% = $US 4,329.9415 Billion per year Budgeted amount
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Why didn't Defiance create water on a world that was water poor to begin with?
That is not what the Hesperus socio economic table says ….. A-A-A-A-B
And Geography –
has four major continents and innumerable small island chains and archipelagos in its shallow oceans….. thus distillation plants plus long underground pipes …. the northern hemisphere offer tolerable living conditions; particularly at an altitude of 3000 or more meters where the atmospheric pressure is closer to 1 bar (as opposed to 3 bars and more in the jungles) and the ambient temperature is around 30 degrees Celsius
Plus with a population of only 55,000 – Hydroponics + Aquaculture + Chicken yards + Northern hemisphere for larger animals.
Self sufficiency is readily achievable….
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I don't know even a tenth of the worlds in the game.
This is why I respect Sarna – good source of information on every world. Thus when writing a game research the planets in the area – and make up those that are hidden within / lost to time in the old Terran Hegemony when you use your unit as an archeology unit for lost / dead worlds that no one has created yet.
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Nukes
And how many have the Jihad era?
You only use them when there is no other way forward – ie. the response to Turtle Bay – if the IS has warships nukes are not required but without them they are the weapon of last resort ….
If you want to use them and go against the rules of war then that is your choice.
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No profit in it.
Yes , small populations with a low socio economic rated world – all others would have access to a level of technological development. So research these periphery regional worlds and see which should be abandoned for more profitable worlds.
If worlds become too inhospitable they should be abandoned.
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Take and hold means a full fledge fight, and that means only one world could ever be your target.
Quite the opposite – what it means is that research will have to be undertaken to find targets that can be taken given the forces available.
It would go a long way to explaining why border movement been next to nil over the past 2 centuries of war?
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Lot Information
Seen any lost information within the local University Library? All I have seen is extensions after extensions … together with massive databases as to good web sites in providing massive information ….
How many true dictators have there been in the IS?
Sorry, but all there needs to be is one library and you can repopulate all the other libraries in ten years – and how many universities are there throughout the IS – tens of thousands is a very realistic figure and then there a re the public libries in any decent city so now we have libraries in the hundreds of thousands. Then on top of that any decent company would have their own library based upon their specific purpose …. Engineering, business, law etc.
So getting rid of all the knowledge – on all the worlds – good luck with that!
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The game Battle Tech was not meant to be an economic nightmare game. It was meant to take stompy robots against your friends and hope by the end of the night, they aren't upset you stomped them of vis versa.
And after 35 years with how many books – what is it now?
When the game does not make sense it must be fixed – and given the amount of pot holes evident within the game someone needs to point them out and see if they can be fixed.
Plus isn’t it the desire of every gamer to make the game more in their image?
Plus researching every world in your game and customizing them – based upon population, socio-economic conditions, history, religion etc. military wise is half the fun.
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Not sure why the clan tech issue is being brought up again.
1. To make the invasion a little more realistic;
2. To make the battles more realistic - given time it would become necessary to bring more clans into the war – expand the war into new areas to explore (as I have provided);
3. To create more IS Omni etc.;
4. Allow the IS to evolve over time
5. Crete more and diverse gaming strategies to fight against the invasion
6. Etc etc.
What I have created is a far more diverse and rich gaming scenario than that of the Canon game …. with far more areas of opportunity for game exploration ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 12:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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The AC 2 isn't so much a sniper, as it rarely kills a unit with one shot, but more of the longest range weapon that mobile units could use for a while. A Gauss Rifle is more of one, as it does have a high ability to kill with a single shot. No head can withstand the slug and live. For the normal Gauss rifle. The light and heavy change this.
A sniper weapon is used from the shadows to kill people. Then the sniper moves in stealth to get away or set up for more shots. They are normally not detected.
WMDs are part of a darker side, but it is a general engagement thing. Not that they are good, but it isn't stalking a single or even multiple targets for removal. And with this, having to kill innocent folks that get in the way, just because, tends to put a lot of people off.
The whole concept of WMDs and snipers supports the saying of kill a single person you are a murderer. Kill 10,000 and you are a conquerer.
Your conclusions are off again. Infantry and armor has always been used in the game. You can play any unit, including civilian air if you wanted to. The game focuses on the mechs, but as most players started doing, they may combat teams. CCTs are probably the largest unit you are doing to do, as the play time is what tends to prevent more. Battleforce tried to help speed that up. I want to say some of the adventure packs had pure infantry or armor battles you can play. So they are not totally ignored, just not in the spot light. As it should be, the game focuses on what the majority of the players want. And a majority is just slightly over half.
For all that of trying to put up water purifiers, they all need to be guarded. Otherwise, then enemy just needs to sabotage them to force the world to have to suffer. Something like this is why the argument of needing to guard everything was done. For the company that has multiple dropships coming in, the cost of import may well be cheaper then having their own water purifiers. Doubtful, but possible.
Might want to rethink the rules of war. Kill or be killed. Those that are dead, and those that are still surviving. The law of nature. Man has tried to limit things to the 'conventional' weapons, but in the end, when it is you or them, you sort to what ever you can. Traps comes to mind. They don't really care WHO is there, just that they do their job. And for some rulers a single nuke on your concentrated forces base is acceptable. Might even cause the populace to avoid angering you, as you are just as likely to stomp them out.
Morally correct? No.
Oddly enough, the use of nukes doesn't seem to have the stigma in games as biological or chemical weapons.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 12:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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I wasn't talking periphery worlds when saying the profit margin would prevent all worlds from having things like mech plants. Ship yards are even more expensive and unnecessary in every system.
The reason why the Terran Hegemony had so many could be resolved by profit driven thoughts. As the IS grew, so did the distances needed to be traveled. Now being the 'closest' to the customer would have advantages of being the one most would stop at, as traveling deeper into the Hegemony would be taxing.
This may well have even started with the Terran alliance, as they needed ship repairs closest to the border worlds so they could respond quicker.
Inhospitable. Interesting term. If you can't live there without equipment, then it should be just that. Most of the worse offenders were colonized for materials. Also, why terraform a world? They are generally inhospitable, so besides needing the minerals, why even bother? Domes work well for keeping people 'safe' while working there. Also goes to reason why some worlds In the IS were not abandoned after being nuked. Well besides having listening posts on them. Yet they still keep going. Part of why there are so many targets that have to be guarded.
The reason why the borders were pretty stagnant was because of the forces required to take and hold worlds. You take 3 worlds, and lose a few in return. This very seesaw in the game just doesn't show the issues with population control or massive movement of infantry. It deals with mechs. Well mechs can't really take or hold cities. But very few people want to play a guard in the middle of a hostile city, trying to keep peace. So it is very understandable that the game isn't focused on it. Now with the change of infantry from the original introduction of them changes the outcome of battles that were not retconned, as they would destroy the game as it stands. More then a few worlds would have needed more forces, as well as losing more to take them. Mechs that is.
Not sure how many libraries has a book that tells you how to build a nuke. In fact, I want to say they are banned. Same with how to do the same with other types of weapons, such as a stinger missile or chemical/bio weapons. The formula for the CHOAM armor is another that would be missing from libraries. At least public ones. Though I guess library is easier then information depositories.
What game that has the earth being invaded by aliens that have destroyed more advanced empires, and can't wipe out the defenders of Earth make sense? How does an invader with energy shields that can not be penetrated by physical means, get stopped by normal slug throwers make sense. Same thing with fighter sized craft having weapon systems that are better then full battleships?
After 35 years, the game is still about stomping on each other with mechs. Economics is back ground to most, as they just like to play. For those that want more depth, then yes. It is lacking on information. But to make money, you focus on what the majority wants. No matter how you want to say otherwise, that majority seems to not care at all about economics of the game, as they want to stomp on each other, and more then a few don't care about if they have repair parts, much less if they can even get them. Magic has the unit up and running for the next battle.
So bagging on the game developers isn't doing what you think it is.
It would be nice to see the developers say something like their scope in the 80's was off, and that they will be upgrading some of the support ideas to really fit the scope of the IS, but that isn't likely to happen.
I just want the rules fixed so they are consistent, and not the we can do this, but you can't concept.
The destruction of the FC, and now the FS puts those that like the state into a frenzy, yet they now have to deal with it being like the CC. On the defensive. For those that love the DC, it is something that allows them to feel they are finally making headway.
The whole ordeal with it is shrouded in bs, but oh well. I get to take my mech and stomp some enemies.
Basic and devoid of a few things? Very much so.
If you run a merc unit with the economy, then yes. More information can be used. But how many really use it the way it is put out? Roll the dice to see if your part is in stock? How much for it? You have another battle coming up, and need the reactor fixed, yet the dice said no. So do you change that result so you aren't fighting with the engine hit?
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Requiem
05/05/20 07:24 PM
1.158.188.5
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So large scale games can be established – it is just a question of organizing them into multiple smaller scale battles and applying the win / loss – damage to the next game if necessary – having many people fight many / many games to determine an overall winner ….
ALL WMDs should be banned!
Everyone should be allowed to play the game in such a manner as they desire – however when reading all the novels etc regarding the Clan Invasion all you get (for the majority) is Mech on Mech – this is a complete load of BS – have a look at Twycross as an example two RCTs + Merc and all you read about is a couple of APCs and a couple of squads of engineers laying explosives in a cliff wall to close the Gash.
Twycross has a population in the vicinity of 1,000,000,000 and a socio economic level of B
Where are all the armour / artillery / aerospace of the RCTs – where are the Twycross Military units armour / Infantry / fighter / bomber etc?
In reading this doesn’t it read completely off kilter as to what should have been on the world and what should have been used against them?
This is the problem with the majority (near all) of the Clans battles – they read as Mech on Mech only and they forget all conventional forces that should be available. Thus the Clans should have lost many more battles than the few that were written about – their complete lack of support vehicles alone restricts their Mechs Movement with regards to resupply and medical assistance – why was this never discussed and was completely ignored?
Why was every world’s own military just ignored? This is the point isn’t it – the entire history of the Clan invasion onwards reads as if the only forces anyone has are limited to just a few House units only and no world has any significant military, even Capitol worlds, where they have populations in the billions and have a socio economic rating of A. Sorry but I cannot accept this it just does not come across with any validity. This is why I cannot believe in the history as given from 3039 onwards – and this is why it all needs a re-write in my opinion – and this is why I am re-writing to something I can consider more believable.
Hesperus – no comment that they can become self sufficient with regards to food / water production and storage given that the population is very small? Also did you notice that Hesperus is also run like a deep sea oil rig / mine in the middle of nowhere – that is the employees fly in fly out no one actually lives on the planet (or if they do it must be a very small number) – as even with a small natural population increase over 200+ years you should see the population being more than that of a small country town!
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After 35 years, the game is still about stomping on each other with mechs. Economics is back ground to most, as they just like to play. For those that want more depth, then yes. It is lacking on information.
Thus producing a product that lacks all depth to it and has become a boring / unbelievable read – thus creating a product that people do not want – consumers want a more sophisticated read than that of the 80’s books – look at star wars, warhammer, D&D they are all written with incredible depth where as Battletech reads as though something is lacking from all the settings – they need more depth, they need more descriptive comments and the stories need to be taken from many points of view the average read ants more – and yet the novels basic structure has not changed – I now find the novels hard to read, they need a complete overall if they are ever going to create a new one – they need more pages with more substance and being a little more believable. A more robust and sophisticated product = more sales and more new players.
Sorry to say but I am not a fan of the new history 3150 era – I just find it completely improbable – Caleb as the ruler of the FS and no one picks up his mental issues?
The DC punch through on such a limited front from their border all the way to New Avalon and they can hold it together with no logistics problems?
The idea that the Clans can establish such massive empires within the IS when their original populations are so ridiculously small – and they say the people of the IS adopt this way of life?
Sorry but I find the entire premise of the new stories to having lost the plot …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/05/20 11:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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WMD were 'banned', yet are still used to create more conflict and get the players motivated to destroy those that use them.
Again. The assumption or maybe lack of believing the story as written as well as the available resources to the IS seems to be what is causing the lack of understanding. RCT's do not always have their aerowings with them. They are sent to deal with other systems, and in this case, might well be protecting the orbiting dropships from clan forces.
The story also says infantry and armor were not used as the storms and such nerfed them beyond being usable. This is on top of the need to fast retreat if they started to lose.
Do you understand greater numbers across a world, verse a compact unit hitting those scattered forces? The winning isn't so much the issue, but the short amount of time to do so. They had to deal with rebels, but it was put to the garrison units to deal with. Not the front line. And with this, when the government of the world says they surrender, that means the military surrenders to. There is very rarely a time when the military says no, and fights on.
Hesperus would not have been considered if not for the SL military making the manufacturing base there. It would have been overlooked as a poor choice for profit. So the whole thing boils down to someone in the SL command structure got a wild hair, and convinced the League to build there.
The game is about mech on mech. The fact the main line hated to deal with vehicles being about the only real time you hear them engage armor. It is set up to suggest the mech is the top line unit, and all the rest don't do much but give mech warriors target practice. The only thing mechs really have on armor is movement and the ability to keep functioning when it loses most internals on anything but the CT and head. Vehicles die when anything but the turret is reduced to no crits. So 4 or 5 locations on an armored unit, verses 8 on a mech, means vehicles will get killed faster.
Playing the game tells you the truth on this as well as the assault mech isn't the best unit to play a lot of the time. Medium jumpers with ranged energy weapons tends to be that. Yet all the stories suggest that mediums don't live against the heavy and assault mechs long.
This is why I think the developers wanted a stand and fight sort of game. I was told it wasn't, but their own fluff suggests otherwise.
The introduction of the RPG and a few other things was supposed to add more depth, but it wasn't supported the way it needed to. That I will say was a fault on the developers. Not sure if it was a lack of funds to get someone to do that, the lawsuit, or just plain didn't believe it would do well. It could well be something else, but the fact is, it was not supported to add in that extra flavor.
But then the original game is a board game. Why not complain risk isn't factual or have a great depth to it? Axis and Allies is the same way. You roll dice to see who dies. No tactics involved. No playing the fights to determine it. So why is BattleTech the whipping child of these rants?
Now the lost plot line has me wondering why you continue to play the game? If it is that screwed up, then stop dealing with it.
Or get away from canon completely with the alt.
But yet, the fact you haven't, tells me you don't want to work on making it right. Just run the canon version with your vision.
That is fine for the alt, but it doesn't fix the issues. It just changes them into something else. You can not fix the canon history and continue to use it as a basis. It does not work out the same when run from before the succession wars started, and even 3025 would change it all by 3050.
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Requiem
05/06/20 02:20 AM
1.158.188.5
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The Second battle of Twycross
Within the Novel …
the entire 9th FedCom RCT was within the storm – that means that over a third of your fighting force is not available;
The entire 10th Lyran Guards Amour / Infantry / Aerospace is MIA - except for one lance of armour and a couple of squads of sapper engineers and in addition one regiment of the 10th is also MIA;
The entire Twycross military that should exist, does not exist, and so is also MIA;
Victor is supposed to be a great general – yet what we have here is completely ludicrous ….. this is just piecemeal addition to what should have been overwhelming force he only jus won with the forces available and yet the Clan forces outside of the gash were able to escape!
Ther should have been no Clan forces that escapade they could all have been caught or killed ….
And how many times do we see this throughout the entire invasion when you look at the TO&E of the IS forces?
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when the government of the world says they surrender, that means the military surrenders to…
Only if the CO is off his rocker! If the force is still viable and they believe they can inflict more damage than they will receive – they will continue fighting ….. even if they have to scatter and form independent raiding units.
Remember the average Garrison size is Nova, Supernova to Trinary and vary rarely a Cluster
So even a single regiment should be able to take on and inflict severe damage to small a clan garrison force.
This just goes to show that there are massive problems within the game – what about the sibko numbers for reinforcements?
This is just so beyond a bad joke.
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The game is about mech on mech.
Whatever happened to the war simulation – infantry / armor / aerospace / VTOL? It is more than just Mech on mech – it is a strategy game! If it was supposed to be mech on mech then there should be no reference to armor / infantry etc within the game as they have been made obsolete.
By addressing these issues hopefully you can make the game a more fun setting where you will want to have conventional forces and not just limit your choices to just the big stompy Mechs
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/06/20 12:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Reread the statement. The second battle of Twycross. You know the one where the clans have controlled it for a short while. The FC is invading it to take it back. Why would there be any Twycross militia in existence? Not sure how that point is being missed not once, but twice.
Sounds like understanding of war and military forces isn't a strong point. A military commander will not decide to keep fighting a war, if the governor says to stop. Not unless they are going to perform a military coup. Defend the people, but obey the leader. Fight to the death and you can't set up a resistance or help when a counter invasion comes.
The so called push for logic is failing in this.
To ignore orders from the ruler, means you are violating your job orders. Stand and die is normally not one that will be tolerated, especially after the commander in chief says it's over.
Remember. Not everyone knew the exact location of the enemy forces at all times. Unlike you, they did not read a book telling them who, what, and when was where in the world or even IS. End results do not modify what they know when the battle was occurring. But his point seems to elude understanding.
Not sure why the concept of the game premise is so hard to comprehend, but mech on mech, can still include the other elements, it is just the focus is mech battles. Most of the players are not interested in taking out a lance of tanks to duke it out. Combined arms is desired by those with a strong basis on trying to do it all. Something a mech can't do. But they come the closest.
There is nothing stopping you from doing your own combat teams. The main back ground story of the game is mech on mech.
Much like your beloved Gundam Wing. It isn't about the little infantry trying to stop a war. It is about the Gundams. Or Star Wars. The story focuses on the Skywalkers. Yet there are battles all over the galaxy, but they aren't the focus, so are back ground noise.
And for Star Wars, the story was supposed to be the rise, fall and redemption of Skywalker.
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Requiem
05/06/20 06:47 PM
1.158.188.5
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Second Battle of Twycross
And people believe that the Clans could identify and find all of the hidden weapons and personnel from the time of the First Battle given that their warriors would not ever stoop to such a menial task – so that leaves who – the Tycross Police Force?
• Twycross March Militia - The unit consisted of several regiments, one of 'Mechs, and an unknown number of armour and infantry regiments.
• It had a full Regiment of Mechs, though after the first days of combat, when the unit was defending Camora city, only one Battalion of the unit was left.
• Two mech lances had been enhanced with ECM equipment and were used to gather critical information on the Falcon Guard tactics and also on clan equipment.
Also – population of Twycross – 1,237,735,000 by 3076
Thus the ability to find any surviving Militia would be sooooo easy for the Clans …….
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A military commander will not decide to keep fighting a war, if the governor says to stop.
Chain of Command – a governor is not part of the Chain of command – not even a world lord
…. the regular army answers to their House Lord – through the chain of command - and his / her Military Command Group.
…. Planetary Military – even though they are technically controlled by the world’s Highest Ranked Officer (via Government) they are also at the same time under the command of their House Lord at the same time – Filial Duty to ones Liege Lord.
Example Grey Death Legion – prior to swearing allegiance to the Archon they were Mercs – once he became lord of Glengarry the Grey Death Legion could be ordered by his House Lord (Katherine) to fight on her behalf – to which he was now legally obliged to do so under the LCAF Banner.
So again, an external order, if they are ordered to surrender by the local government they are within their right, under law, to ignore it – only a direct order via House Lord via their Lord’s CIC can give this order and even then you can request a confirmation of the order (taking even more time to fight on ….).
Also why would a house lord order the surrender of a viable military unit?
Internally – only the highest ranked officer has this authority and only under a limited number of circumstances – otherwise their XO can charge them with dereliction of duty / cowardess in the face of the enemy – arrest them and take command – and continue the battle …..
So again …. Only if they are completely off their rocker would they obey!
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Not sure why the concept of the game premise is so hard to comprehend,
Then an accurate statement is required – combined arms group Vs. Mech!
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Gundam Wing
Have a look …..
https://www.google.com/search?q=gundam+w...me&ie=UTF-8
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Star Wars
The ages before the emperor …..
Clone Wars ….
Rebels ….
Resistance …
The role playing game?
Miniature’s game?
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The main back ground story of the game is mech on mech.
Then write the story so that it is believable ….. military uits are about combined arms units working together in battle to achieve a common goal …. Mech supporting infantry and armor and being supported by artillery and fighter / bomber / VTOL – being transported by marine / navy units. The idea that Mechs only every work on their own would only occur with Mercenary units who do not have access to support units.
Reconnaissance units are comprised not only of mechs – they also have infantry with vehicles – Boomerang spotter planes – some sort of unmanned drones – Fighter support units – High altitude AWACS – satellite and warship (if available).
Remember there are some terrain that even a mech cannot go through – hence the need for other units who do have the capability.
Also Mechs are a limited resource they cannot be everywhere at once where as Infantry with vehicles are more versatile and are in high numbers – thus they can be sent more easily to every part of the battlefield if necessary to fulfill a role ….
Also if your duty is to go house to house to investigate the inside of buildings how are you going to do this in a mech? Do they now have a scanner that can do the job that was never previously discussed?
Limiting the scope of the game to just mechs limits the games scope and its overall believability.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/07/20 12:44 AM
66.74.60.165
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The way it was suggested, makes it sounded like Twycross had a full set of RCT troops with artillery support. Not some hundred or so militia troops with equipment on verge of being scrapped. And with the return of the FC, they would stay hidden until after the planet was liberated. There was no guarantee they would be freed.
The planetary governor has full rights of command over the troops that are planetary troops.
And the fact that you have to ask "why would a house lord order the surrender of a viable military unit?" says you have no idea on how to use troops properly. They are not stand and die. If it is, this would explain why it is impossible to comprehend anything but utter defeat or winning at all costs. Which the latter seems to exclude WMDs. You pull troops out of a losing battle when you can, and use them another day.
But then when you think all troops are stationed in one city on a world, and can defend the entire world quickly from that point, the idea of realism of tactics and strategy have to be questioned.
Even the most loyal of troops will tell their commander that the order is not something that can be done and refuse the order. This is not done on a whim, but it is done.
The second thought to the idea of do or die makes me think dictator concept is all that is there.
Oh. And that means Katherine was in violation of the order to stand down, as she was NOT the appointed ruler of the FC. She usurped it.
Gundam Wing is full of holes. It is poorly written on top of that, but for entertainment, it is ok. All games and movies have to have the audience ignore facts in order for it to be enjoyed.
All the things beyond the movie were retconned into existence. The main Star Wars movie was about the Skywalkers. George Lucas and the others did a great job in doing so, but they still have some logic farts in there.
The story is as believable when it isn't the primary reason for playing the game. Maybe you want something more akin to intrigue and assassins, not wars fought with large robots. So many assassin's Creed would be a better thing. BattleTech is about Battle mechs. Not world of tanks. I think this is a bit overboard, as they suggest the mech is the ultimate unit, yet only does so by nerfing everything else. But oh well. I play the game, and the group has their own little rules. The back ground story doesn't really matter, as there is NOTHING the players can do to change the full canon version of what goes on. So a successful assassination of Takashi in 3022 has no meaning on the rest of the world playing. In fact, if you try to use those characters in another game, then Takashi still lives in 3025.
This is not presenting ideas for GMs. This is a call to rewrite the entire game history because you don't like it.
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Requiem
05/07/20 05:40 AM
1.158.188.5
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The way it is written Twycross March Militia is very close to a RCT in equipment – however they are as green as the grass is.
As for no guarantee they would be freed – this is a laughable concept – either they will do it themselves through partisan warfare (especially when you consider the size of most garrisons) or they will hold fast no long how it takes (Look at the CC people when they were liberated from the FS how quickly did it take for them to rise up as an example!)
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The planetary governor has full rights of command over the troops that are planetary troops.
Since when? …. Example please.
The military is answerable to the Chain of Command and only those in the Chain of Command!
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And the fact that you have to ask "why would a house lord order the surrender of a viable military unit?" says you have no idea on how to use troops properly.
Please elucidate me then – under what conditions would a House Lord order his / her troops to surrender? …. And why not an organized retreat?
I can see being surrounded with no hope of relief – but this is on the CO not the House Lord ….
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when you think all troops are stationed in one city on a world, and can defend the entire world quickly from that point
Drop- ships – transport vast amount of units quickly – especially if you use drop pods;
Super transport – ships (sea) and aircraft (air) and rail (land) – can also move forces quickly;
Paratroopers are good example of this.
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Even the most loyal of troops will tell their commander that the order is not something that can be done and refuse the order.
Insubordination to Mutiny – dishonorable discharge after ? years hard labor to firing squad.
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And that means Katherine was in violation of the order to stand down
Civilian not military – and the Lyran CIC sided with her so Victor is completely out of the picture …...
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The back ground story doesn't really matter, as there is NOTHING the players can do to change the full canon version of what goes on.
Sorry no …. My Alt history says otherwise - Every group should be allowed to modify their history as they see fit – otherwise the game will just disappear, and shortly, as how may actually enjoy anything Jihad and onwards - how many have only one era they fight in thus purchasing new books is reducing in number if and when it is ever printed?
I know I have decided to give up on the majority jihad and onwards – unless it contains new Mechs / Vehicles or technology.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/07/20 12:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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So the Twycross militia just happens to have near RCT units when the second battle started? So did these just pop out of the ground thru magic? Or did the clans hand them over so they had some thing more to shoot at? Maybe they found an experimental HPG set up that moves weapons from other worlds.
Chain of command means you listen to your boss. Then that boss listens to the boss above them. It does NOT mean the archon gives the lance a specific order to be followed. It goes down the chain of command, with the highest one on site having the duty to decide what needs to be done. There were more then a few times where someone higher in the chain of command didn't know the full details of what is going on.
Now your alt might have enough resources to have multi million dollar dropships sitting around on each world to take a few hours to get into orbit, get to a site and drop units to stop a raid or invasion, but that is not the case even in the richest worlds of the game. Some will have it attached to the response units on SOME worlds, but no where near all. But the few hours is too long. A simple smash raid would be done and over with before you got into orbit, with the raiders pulling out before you even attempt to drop. And with that, your dropships would be stupid to stay on the ground when inbound dropships were found. Don't need a nuke to carpet bomb the areas where they are parked.
As much as you want to believe otherwise, there are legal times when an officer can tell his boss that they are being ordered to perform tasks that would destroy their troops. Or are illegal in itself.
The dictator concept of do it or die, will have your units full of criminals that will destroy your lands without the need for an enemy. It will also mean you will not have forces for very long when dealing with the concept of this game.
As a side note, your HQ would be destroyed very quickly, once the enemy sees you send everything to respond to a small hit, and demand your soldiers die where they stand. No tactics, no reinforcements, as they are all sent to attack an enemy from an area that should have had guard units at to begin with. And with this, you would lost those sites as well, as the enemy has no resistance there.
In the scenario you are painting, anyone that defies their lawful ruler is to be executed in the firing line. That means siding with someone that ISN'T the lawful ruler, so Katherine's support is doing that very thing. And as Katherine knows the whole legalities of this, she is very much in default of following those laws as well. Your argument of Adam applies here. Victor did not stand down, resign, or anything of the sort, so he is still the legal ruler of the lands. ALL units were supposed to follow his orders, not Katherines.
Surrendering a viable force is done to prevent the full destruction of them, when the situation is beyond even winning, going into being destroyed. These are not some little dots on a screen, but in the game, living beings. There is risk in war, but ignoring the chance to save them in a no win situation, will have you without soldiers very quickly. Some situations will not allow a surrender, so a fight to the death is going to happen.
This almost sounds like what Kurita would suggest to their people...
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Requiem
05/07/20 04:19 PM
1.158.188.5
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Still have not yet to explain - under what conditions would a House Lord order his / her troops to surrender? – since when does a planetary governor have command rights over regular forces?
Quote:
Twycross March Militia
Why is it so unbelievable to consider the remnants of Twycross March Militia were able to conceal their location during the clan invasion?
How many units went on to fight guerrilla conflict for years or just popped up years later after being in hiding.
Quote:
The Raid
Making generalized assumptions is not an absolute every time. Every world will have its own unique TO&E and this must be taken into consideration.
When a Jumpship arrives in-system their re-emergence should be detectable – then there are satellites – and then there are regional commands who have computers that can work out probable LZ sites – and then there could even be a Union Dropship full of Mechs ready to go in orbit or a fighter Dropships ready to go so the hours are now minutes …. And with this the sites are saved the enemy routed ……
Scenarios are not absolutes and must be taken on a case by case basis ….
Quote:
In the scenario you are painting, anyone that defies their lawful ruler is to be executed in the firing line.
Out of context - “Those convicted of Mutiny”.
Quote:
That means siding with someone that ISN'T the lawful ruler
By this argument the USA should still be a member of the English Commonwealth.
Quote:
The Clan Invasion Error
How many worlds within the Clan Invasion corridors were only defended by militia / merc
Ghost Bear
Second Wave – Susquehanna, Trondheim
Third Wave – Polcenigo
Fourth Wave – Pomme De Terre, Spittal, Goito
Fifth Wave – Kempten, Kaesong,Sheliak, Halesowen, Maule, Ardoz, Utrecht, Mannedorf, Toffen
Jade Falcon
Second Wave – Evciler, Golandrinas, Maxie’s Planet, Romulus, Seiduts, Twycross
Third Wave – Beta VII, Hot Springs, Malibu, Roadside, Waldorff (the entire third wave!)
Fourth Wave – Antares, Apolakkia, Baker 3, Blackjack, Denizli, Goat Path, Graus, Leskvik, Parakoila
Fifth Wave – Quarell
Nova Cat
Fifth Wave – Itabaiana
Smoke Jaguar
First Wave – Idlewind,Rockland, Bjarred, Almunge, Virentofta, Stapelfeld
Second Wave – Sawyer, Nykvarm, Coudoux, Chupadero
Third Wave – Kabah, Jeanette, Hanover, Savinsville, Albiero (the entire third wave)
Fourth Wave – Byesville
Fifth Wave – Labrea, Outer Volta, Yamarovka, Tarazed
Steel Viper
Fifth Wave – Montmarault, Benfled, Orkney
Wolf
First Wave – Alleghe, The Edge, Icar, Outpost, Skallevoll, Balsta, St. John, Svelvik
Second Wave – Cseztreg, Leoben, Lovinac, New Bergen,Rodigo
Third Wave – Bruben, Hermagor, Kirchbach, Liezen, Feltre, Harvest, Mozirje
Fourth Wave – Dawn, New Oslo, Unzmarkt, Basiliano, Ferleiten, Hohenems, Kufstein, Engadin, Svarstaad, Vulcan, Moritz, Skokie, Stanzach
Fifth Wave – Cusset, Laurent, Thannhausen, Volders, Vorarlberg, Weingarten, Gunzburg, Hyperion, Karston, Wheel, Domain, Rastaban, Altenmarkt, Biota, Diosd, Galuzzo, Nox, Lothan, Ramsau
Note the fifth wave is post year of “peace”
In retrospect …..
In my opinion the entire fifth wave is a sham – every House has enough time to bring in regular forces for every world fought over – for me this just shows how much of a sham the Clan invasion truly is. As soon as it becomes apparent they are being invaded by an external force regular elite / veteran forces should have been dispatched o intercept their spear-point en mass. Where are the multiple RCTs joining forces on a single world to stop their invasion?
And as for the mercenary units – I have never heard of them – they are all a complete unknowns!
Sorry to say, but as far as I am concerned this does in no way represent a true response as to how individual Houses Regular Units would be utilized. They have the Jumsphips – look at the 4th Succession War …. They have the Units …. Look at the 20 Year Update …..
The Clans were just given a quick and easy invasion corridor with no real elite / veteran forces (on the whole) to stop them.
What a waste of an invasion – this could have been made far more than was rushed through!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/08/20 02:46 AM
66.74.60.165
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Most guerilla units did not use mechs for the most part of their time behind clan lines. They seemed to be infantry/commando style resistances.
I would assume you haven't actually read how the FWL actually operates. Each region is supposed to be part of the FWL, yet each one can refuse to give the rulers (mariks) units to use for any purpose. And planets as well as individual unit commanders have refused orders as well. Court martials have happened, but a firing line it rare.
As to why they would, there are many. Some so simple that it is amazing it needs to be asked. The whole planet is impossible to hold, due to things like no reinforcements are possible, simple retreat out of the combat zone, so your troopers don't have to die needlessly comes to mind. Even Kurita forces have done so without being punished. A few have refused orders due to lack of pay, or resources, such as repair parts for their mechs. No shore leave in too long. There are many more, but with all the research done, I don't know how this was missed.
Funny thing about the emergence signature. It was not in the original game, nor in a few rule upgrades. And the idea that you can do so, means all non pirate point jump raids and invasions should never have taken a world by surprise. So this one thing negates a lot of surprise drops.
There is nothing said of those convicted of mutiny. It says if you disobey orders, you are to be punished. The firing line is suggested a few times. There is nothing said of special circumstances anywhere except the rebuttal to this statement.
The U.S won that war. This is one of those times the U.K. didn't try to retake the lands. So the enemy surrendered, even though their forces could continue the fight. Not well, but they were still in it. The local commander surrendered and was allowed to take his forces and leave. Hmmm. Against the crowns wishes, but the time lag was horrible..
There were several veteran/elite units that fought the clans in their push. On the whole, you are never going to have wall to wall units that are veteran or elite. The only time I can say this may have happened was the 4th war. And even then, they were not all highly skilled units used.
Edited by ghostrider (05/08/20 02:55 AM)
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Requiem
05/08/20 08:34 AM
1.158.188.5
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Supposition as to guerilla units not utilizing ‘Mechs – depends on terrain.
Quote:
I would assume you haven't actually read how the FWL actually operates. Each region is supposed to be part of the FWL, yet each one can refuse to give the rulers (mariks) units to use for any purpose.
That is until 3046 – Military Reorganization Act – The Act included ….”the elimination of the distinction between Federal and Provincial troops. All soldiers in any League military force were made part of the Free Worlds League Military and placed under the direct control of Parliament and the Captain-General.”
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Even Kurita forces have done so without being punished
Can you please provide an example ….. as normally, first – Seppuku – or another form of appeasing the dragon before the unit is pardoned .
Quote:
A few have refused orders due to lack of pay, or resources, such as repair parts for their mechs.
And they became mercenary.
Quote:
disobey orders
Refer the Code of Military Conduct – Mompeyssin’s “Soldiers’ codes of conduct if different countries around the world. A comparative outlook” may assist - https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/25583339.pdf
Quote:
The U.S won that war
As above …..
- dictator concept - Oh. And that means Katherine was in violation of the order to stand down, as she was NOT the appointed ruler of the FC. She usurped it.
- Victor did not stand down, resign, or anything of the sort, so he is still the legal ruler of the lands. ALL units were supposed to follow his orders, not Katherine’s.
Me - By this argument the USA should still be a member of the English Commonwealth.
England did not stand down ….so they are still the legitimate government … all units were supposed to follow their orders … not the rebels!
“And yet Katherine won that war. This is one of those times the FS didn’t try to retake the lands. So the enemy surrendered, even though their forces could continue the fight.”.
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The Clan Invasion error
Refer again to the number of worlds that were just handed over the Clans without a fight – this is at least over half (an maybe even more than that …..then consider all those post Twycross (second battle) September 3050 and Wolcott October 3050 – both IS victories!
Then the year ‘of peace’
Look how many world were given away then – what a joke!
Ghost Bear
FRR – 1st 2nd Hussars
FRR – 1st Freemen
FRR – 17th 20th 22nd 31st Rasalhagian Free FRR -7
DC – 2nd 4th 6th 7th 8th 9th Alshain Regulars
DC – 27th 41st Dieron Regulars
DC – 1st 12th Sun Zhang Academy
DC – 2nd Sword of Light
DC – 21st Benjamin Regulars
DC – 4th Arkab Legion DC - 12
Jade Falcon
FC – 2nd New Ivaarsen Chasseurs
FC – 17th Skye Rangers RCT
FC – 8th 25th Arcturan Guards RCT
FC – 12th Donegal guards
FC – 10th Lyran Guards FC - 6
Nova Cats
DC – 18th Dieron Regulars
DC – 2nd Amphigean Light Assault Group
DC – 21st 34th Galedon Regulars
DC – 9th Dieron Regulars
DC – 3rd 11th Pesht Regulars
DC – 2nd Ghost
DC – 1st Shin Legion
DC – 11th Alshain Regulars DC - 9
Smoke Jaguar
DC – 1st 3rd 9th 10th Alshain Regulars
DC – 4th 9th Pesht Regulars
DC – 14th Legion of Vega
DC – 2nd 3rd Benjamin Regulars
DC – 5th Galedon Regulars
DC – 1st 2nd Genyosha
DC – 6th Ghost
DC – 2nd Arkab
DC – 2nd Amphigean Light Assault Group
DC – 1st 3rd Proserpina Hussars DC - 17
Steel Viper
FC – 10th 19th Lyran Guards RCT
FC – 9th FedCom RCT
FC – 17th Donegal Guards RCT FC - 4
Wolf
FRR – 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Drakons
FRR – 1st 2nd 3rd Freeman FRR - 7
FC – 10th Donegal Guards RCT
FC – 33rd 41st Avalon Hussars RCT
FC – 1st Lyran Regulars
FC – 24th 25th 26th Arcturan Guards RCT
FC – 1st 26th Lyran Guards RCT
FC – 5th Davion Guards RCT FC – 10
20 Year Update Clan Invasion Total % of units used during Invasion
FRR – 16 FRR – 13 FRR – 81%
DC - 99 DC – 28 DC – 28%
FC - 268 FC – 20 FC – 7.5%
The invasion is a complete sham!
Even after the year of peace it looks as though the FC still did not move any units against the Clans
For me the Canon Clan invasion holds no validity!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/08/20 12:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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Read the Galtor campaign. There were several units under the command of one of the military provinces that were ordered to retreat from the world as his rival, Samsonov, was going to destroy his forces. The coordinator had him questions but no seppuku nor were the troops punished. It wasn't that the situation was hopeless, but the actions made the choice to leave.
Those that refused to work without being paid becoming mercenaries. Some did. Some didn't. But the fact remains they LEGALLY said no to their bosses.
Might need to look at the outcome of the U.S. revolutionary war. England did stand down and seeded control of the U.S to the colonial government. It was a while after the Brittish forces surrendered and left, but it was done.
The list you have for the clans resistance is incomplete and in the list you provided, there are veteran and elite units in there. Those were the units stationed on the worlds lost. It does not add in what units were fighting there on top of that, and retreated from those worlds.
But this might help.
You want a rewrite, then rewrite it. Don't do a reboot, as you are trying to do, rewrite it entirely. Remove canon completely and go from there. All of these complaints saying this and that is wrong, yet still not showing numbers that show the 'only viable solution' is that. This is not showing an alt, but just complaining the game isn't going the way you want.
There are more then a few things I agree with, as the clans should not have been able to take so much with so little, and some of that comes down to not actually figuring in vehicles as well as the amount of time it took was shorter then I would believe. Some complaints are from not understanding the full reality of things, like your soldiers stand and fight, but are not little blips to stand and die on an angry whim. Live to fight another day is very standard, though not retreating at the first sounds of gunshots.
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Requiem
05/08/20 05:01 PM
1.158.188.5
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Quote:
Galtor campaign
Which units?
Grieg Samsonov – Warlord of the Galedon Military District
“During Galtor III campaign, it was discovered that Samsonov was blackmailing mercenary companies within his district, which caused significant problems during fighting on planet. His actions, caused fellow Warlord Yoriyoshi's troops go through hardships as their mercenary support loaded up with supplies prior to they did.”
Quote:
But the fact remains they LEGALLY said no to their bosses.
No …. They went into another realm and became mercenaries …. exiled for life is not legal – thy now have a bounty on their heads.
Quote:
Might need to look at the outcome of the U.S. revolutionary war.
Consider the wider war – Anglo-French War 1778-1783 – GB diverted resources from the war in Nth America to those in Europe, India and the West Indies.
What would have happened if they hadn’t diverted these forces?
Quote:
The list you have for the clans resistance is incomplete
Then please go through the list within Sara – Invasion Corridor - <Clan> and point out the errors.
Quote:
then rewrite it.
Postings that I have included so far …..
Thomas Marik – killed off (died in the explosion) – civil war – new Captain General Isis Marik (betrothed to Victor)
3039-40 – CC obliterated – now a part of the FC
Writings on taking the 50 years – 3000 – 3050 to establish Clan Colonies into the Deep Periphery – using this time o establish a true communication relay between the IS and Clan Space – using this time to create a true Leviathan Fleet for the Colonisation of the Deep Periphery
Introduce a system of Clan re-supply / sibko reinforcement number system so that they now must adhere to the availability of Logistics in the war …. If Logistics / sibko numbers run out they must combine units …
Introducing IS Navies to the void prior to 3050 + my PT craft Dropships armed with naval guns
Introducing new Infantry rules and weapons ….
My Fenrir Forces …. With Black Box …. Logistics fleets will now disappear … naval battles
Clan PGC’s going rogue….
Partisan fighting ….. with Black Box
The Great Naval Battle(s) at Camelot Command – more naval battles within the war – IS now have Aerospace fighter Carriers as the centre of their fleets Vs. Clans Battleships – create an IS ship killer missile (get away from Nukes)
Post Turtle Bay – DC Navy sent in and they sink the Jags ship in retaliation ….
Creating a true Battle of Rasalhague
When the Wolves use their tactic of putting supplies before their invasion forces – many will go missing …
Re-Creating the Star League and the SLDF in 3051 – censure / trial of Comstar for their perfidy with the Clans – ComGuard to be assigned to new SLDF (WoB formed as a dedicated anti Clan Force) – Majority of DCMS and FCMS forces will move from their garrison posts to that of the invasion corridor – FWL will join the war against the Clans
Introducing Psy-Ops teams onto clan held worlds – assisting freeborn to run away from the clans by establishing an underground to assist them
Sending Archeology Units into the Former Terran Hegemony worlds – looking for Artifacts than may help in the war or information that can be used to show the Clans how far they have fallen from the former SLDF to what they are now ….
Creating second / third gen IS Omni tech (over time)
Convert the year of peace to the year of preparation and turn the worlds in front of the Clans to something similar to Italy during WW2 – Wolf Dragoons are now part of the New SLDF
Anti-Clan doctrinal fighting book established by both DC and FS – clans must now fight attrition warfare rather than blitzkrieg they are fond of fighting
Outcome - Pushed out of the IS after many years of fighting – however Nova Cats and Ghost Bears Swap sides and establish new realms for them within the Deep Periphery
War between Jade Falcon / Wolf within the deep periphery - Clan Jade wolf formed – Khan Phelan
New IS colonies within the Deep Periphery formed
During this time frame Victor will run away with Omika and they will form their own new realm – Katherine takes over FC – Isis (Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned)
Problems with Vicor / Omika’s new realm and that of FC and DC during the great Deep Periphery land Grab era (wild west settler Vs Big Coy both looking for new land / resources etc – SLDF sent in to act as the Police in this area of Chaos – might makes right …..
Clans on the Home Worlds begin the second invasion of the IS (30 -40 years after the end of the first Invasion with a new army and navy / new tech etc that will not be hobbled by the old sibko system) - new war erupts within throughout the deep periphery / Inner Sphere as the second wave of Clan forces begin an entirely new Invasion not limited in determining the il-Clan – aim conquest …..
And in the middle of this we have the Sun Tzu rebellion – Katherine usurping Victor – Isis Marik re-establishing an explorer corp and expanding her realm throughout the Deep Periphery behind the FWL and within the Deep Periphery near Victor / Omika’s new realm so that she can attack them (with Katherine’s support)
Isis engages in a war against Andurian / Magistracy of Canopus – re-unification war – Independent region – Fronc Reaches – Taurian Concordat
And yet still not good enough as the framework for a re-write?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/08/20 09:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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The 17th and 6th Benjamin Regulars loaded onto their dropships and headed towards the Galtor jump point. Neither one of them became a merc unit afterwards. So not sure where you are getting your information from, or maybe not wanting to see what was written there, but page 34 for the retreat without orders, and page 36 says about Yoriyoshi living.
The bounties on their heads is not what happened, and not sure why you are stating they did. More then a few units left the houses they were signed up for to become mercs and still serve the house that shorted them. So the iron fist isn't correct in more then a few situations.
And how did the war of the U.S end? If the U.K didn't stand down or agree to let the states go, they would have continued the war after they dealt with other issues. The blockade by the French ended the idea of keeping the U.S under Brittish rule.
That is not a rewrite, but a reboot. You still used the flawed logic of the game and just adding in more things that would only compound the flawed issues. You wanted the SLDF to fight to the death, while the whole issue of populations needing far more troops then shown to pacify them, means the SL would never have formed. The houses would not have been able to take control either. All the suggestions listed to nothing to rewrite the story, just change it to fit your vision. Which has flaws of it's own, but the base flaws of the original story still prevents the story from being logical.
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ghostrider
05/08/20 10:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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Gray Death Legion
Grave Walkers
12th Star Guards
1st Regiment
2nd Grave Walkers
5th Davion Guards RCT
3rd Regiment 12th Star Guards
3rd Icar Armored Brigade
2nd Battalion 2nd Kell Hounds
1st Proserpina Hussars
3rd Proserpina Hussars
Some are veteran and elite units. Some of the more unknown units were left out.
And there were infantry and vehicle battles that were part of the invasion, though some names seem repeated in a few different locations. Not sure if this is a mistake on the writers, forgetting they were on other worlds, or if the survivors were part of the new battles and didn't say so, like a few other units.
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Requiem
05/09/20 03:17 AM
1.158.188.5
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To which book are you elucidating ….. Page 34 and Page 36
Quote:
The blockade by the French ended the idea of keeping the U.S under British rule.
Actually it was the Treaty of Paris …. Signed September 3, 1783… Article 1. Of which acknowledged states existence …. And forced through by the French, Spanish and Dutch …
Rewrite – Verb – write (something) again so as to alter or improve it.
Reboot – Verb – a process or sequence that gives fresh impetus to restart or revive.
Sounds like a rewrite to me.
If you have disagreement with anything in the template – please expand on it.
Gray Death Legion - mercenary
Grave Walkers - mercenary
12th Star Guards - mercenary
1st Regiment - mercenary
2nd Grave Walkers – mercenary
5th Davion Guards RCT – included under Wolf
3rd Regiment 12th Star Guards mercenary
3rd Icar Armored Brigade – reserve unit
2nd Battalion 2nd Kell Hounds - mercenary
1st Proserpina Hussars – included under Smoke Jaguar
3rd Proserpina Hussars – included under Smoke Jaguar
As the list was in regard to regular forces only – the numbers stand.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/10/20 12:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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The 17th and 6th Benjamin Regulars loaded onto their dropships and headed towards the Galtor jump point. Neither one of them became a merc unit afterwards. So not sure where you are getting your information from, or maybe not wanting to see what was written there, but page 34 for the retreat without orders, and page 36 says about Yoriyoshi living.
The Galtor jump point. I would guess that would mean the Galtor Campaign book. Guess skimming messages means you skip information a lot.
It was said that the list provided was incomplete. You said put down what was missing. I did, then it was in regards to regular forces only. This was answering the false statement of no veteran or elite units faced the clans except Twycross and Wolcott. Technically, the Kell Hounds faced them before they got into the IS. So that statement is wrong. And it would be nice to have something like regular military forces only before saying show the units not on a list.
Looking back, there are a few questions on what happens when Katherine wins the FC. As it would come down to 3 states voting, how does the new SL survive when Katherine becomes the leader of it? She would not allow control to be removed from her hands in the 5 year limit of the first lord position. There is no way she would allow the other two to continue to pass the role between each other. As the CC doesn't exist in your alt, this means it can not have representation, so 2 to 1 vote comes about. Thus, she would start the biggest war of the IS. She would absolutely try to destroy the other two in order to get and keep the first lord position.
This fact would destroy the 'peace' and the plans for anything beyond the initial formation period of the SL.
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Requiem
05/10/20 05:07 PM
1.158.188.5
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Quote:
retreat without orders
Two books – The Galtor Campaign and Historical Turning Points: Galtor
Syovo Yorioshi …. Withdraw from Galtor III in the middle of the operation – removed from his post and placed in a staff position in the Combine’s interior …. in disgrace.
Quote:
in regards to regular forces only
Reading the list – why did I only include regular forces? Showing how regular forces were used in the invasion, and what does that show?
Let us look at the key military IS players …..
Hanse Davion, whom was described by his Kurita enemy as “a leader whom would go straight for your neck “ …..and….who was known by his nickname “the Fox”, for his shrewd and cunning military and political strategies?
Takashi Kurita – ruthlessly cunning ….
Theodore Kurita – high military acumen …
This history completely violates these characters personality / military acumen and many more …. and then look at the number of units involved and how they were used ……
What does this show? …… the invasion is without doubt a sham, I will never accept this! as far as I am concerned the Canon history is viable till 3039, from there on the canon history ENDS + ComStar’s Thomas Marik body double ends. From then on I will create my own history.
I may read what is provided but I will not accept it – the underlying story as given lacks credibility (in my opinion) there are just too many issues that make no sense whatsoever as to individuals characters and their events.
Quote:
what happens when Katherine wins the FC. As it would come down to 3 states voting, how does the new SL survive when Katherine becomes the leader of it?
First when the Star League is reformed it includes the following …
FedCom, DC, FWL, FRR, ComStar, St. Ives, MoC / Duchy of Andurien Alliance
As written previously - Each ruler has a set time period as ruler then in moves on to the next in a given sequence (rules when established are very complex) - Second the position is not as written as that was written with no forethought – The position is mainly ceremonial it does not control the SLDF – it does not allow the ruler to send troops into another members realm – they are just the chairman of the board – similar to the UN Security Council (minus the veto) or the EU Council and NATO– everyone gets a vote.
So even when she gets the position of First Lord – the position has no real power other than the administrative requirements of keeping the SL and the SLDF going, convening any SL meetings, plus any ceremonial duties.
The First Lord Position as per history no longer exists as its time has come and gone.
Then in the future the Nova Cats and Ghost Bears will be added in to the group ….
Plus the idea that Katherine as written is one and only Katherine in not correct …. The Katherine as written shows a lack of understanding as to a true Machiavellian “Prince” – she only needs to get rid of Victor and the Throne is hers, she does not have to kill anyone, and even then Victor’s choice of partner will ensure he will never be allowed the Throne – Omika Kurita? Really what was he thinking? … he is a Price of the Realm his wishes do not exist - his life is to serve and that means Isis Marik.
If he wants Omika then he has no choice but to abdicate from the Throne / line of succession – refer Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson.
Plus all things considered – Victor as ruler of the FedCom is a mistake - his inability to give up being commander of the 10th and rule shows his inability to become a true leader of a Great House.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/10/20 08:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Galtor campaign is an oddity, as It shows that both the DC and FS would send a dozen regiments to a single world to fight it out, yet the response to the clans didn't seem to see that much for the entire conflict. Something that amazes me that wasn't seen in the discussion.
And I do agree that the response and what units were actually involved in the fight is off for the clan invasion. More then a few infantry and armor battles were fought, yet it always seems that a certain few units were leading the assaults, yet the did not have the time to actually go from a few battles to a new world. Or so it seems. The delay in jumps coming into effect. Ion-Lithium batteries can only do so much. The time to travel from jump point to world and back again being something that gets in the way here.
The list of who is involved in the new SL wouldn't contain a few, unless there is a real change in how things were done before the formation of it. The FRR would be non existent at this time, and the MoC is questionable.
Now with the not allowing a single clansman to live inside occupied territory would say the Bears/Wolves would not be allowed, just as the Falcons and Jaguar would not be allowed. The Nova Cats might be an issue as well, like the suggestion of the Wolves-in-exile were noted.
Also missing from this list is the Outworlds Alliance. The TC might be noted as well, but they are the least likely of the periphery realms to be involved in anything like this. The OA would probably see a benefit from it, as it would mean a more secured area on their borders.
And a note about giving up command of a unit. Hanse never retired from being the leader of the Davion Heavy Guards. He did have someone else take them out and continue to get experience and fame, but he was still the over all leader of that unit, beyond being head of the FS.
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Requiem
05/11/20 06:18 AM
1.158.188.5
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The Clan Invasion can’t be considered the most inventive.
As for the Star League – size of the realm is irrelevant as long as they have forces still fighting they are a member nation.
So when the Duchy of Andurien succeeded from the FWL and formed an alliance with MoC – they were even a part in the Capellan Fall War – the destruction of the CC – as far as I am concerned they still exist circa 3050’s, and the only reason they want in is access to Clan Tech (otherwise it will put them in a disadvantage with regards to the FWL).
As for the Nova Cats and Bears – they have already have colony worlds within the deep periphery formed during the 3000 to 3050 period to prepare for the first invasion of the IS – it would make more sense to form their new state as these worlds as the nucleus. As well as any other Clans forward support worlds they can conquer (as they have all the necessary logistics facilities to continue the war – including naval support facilities).
Why would the remaining periphery realms want to be a part of the SL? – I doubt their opinion of the SL would change now.
Hanse Davion – when was the last time he actually commanded a unit in battle?
This is constitutional role vested in the monarch – i.e. it is on paper only.
The Clan invasion needs battles worthy of Hanse, Takashi and Theodore – Battles that can excite all the players.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/11/20 01:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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The periphery states may well want in, even though they still hate the SL and the IS, for some of the same reasons the MoC is presented to have. Access to Clan Tech. It would also give them some help in keeping the other houses out of their territory, which would help the TC greatly. Knowing that the FS/FC would be hit or even SL forces placed on border worlds to prevent the Davions from attacking would benefit them.
The OA and others, could very well benefit from gaining help making inroads into rebuilding their manufacturing base. Not just military, but commercial as well. Might even be able to drop the back waters reputation most periphery states have.
The bears comes up as the statement that all clans have to leave occupied territory comes up. The demands for the FC to be cleared speaks against this. It also leads to the question of the Wolves in exile. Why one and not the other? The Nova Cats might also considered part of the DC at this point.
As the game is not good for telling when the rulers of a realm head out in a mech, it is very possible that Hanse's last foray was during the 4th war in the defense of New Avalon. Then again, he could well have been in the middle of a fight when the clans first penetrated the official IS border.
The players can be excited in the battles, but until canon is moved away from, anything they do, will be temporary at best. How excited would they be if they were able to take Twycross from the clans? How about Rassalhauge? Maybe kill Merthe Pryde? Be part of a unit that removes or take a major depot from the clans, including replacement units being readied to be shipped to their units? They can do some of this, and be permanent, such as taking supplies. Temporary things could include taking worlds, only to have the clans counter invade them and other units lose it again. It is just dependent on how you think the players would be excited.
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Requiem
05/11/20 05:46 PM
1.158.188.5
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TC - how will they get over their zoophobia towards the FS to even consider joining?
OA – how will they ever afford the refit packages for their military and given the dysfunctional nature of their government why would they send their military into a real meat grinder of a war?
Plus considering the historical (ingrained) hate periphery people have towards the IS how could their people allow their politicians consider this action?
How many people would see the assistance of IS Houses to either TC or OA as the first step in losing their freedom – the IS has come again to conquer them as they have done again and again throughout their history?
If all they wanted was Tech why not just buy it on the black market or just take it via the normal SOP - the illegal acquisition of goods.
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The bears comes up as the statement that all clans have to leave occupied territory comes up. The demands for the FC to be cleared speaks against this.
First it would have been written into the charter of the new Star Leagues mission statement – the freedom of all the IS worlds from all of the Clans.
Second, The Bears – FRR will decide if they can remain on their worlds – so if the FRR / Bears can put up with two systems per world a FRR area and a Clan area why not? But if the Clan people ask for asylum from the Clan way of life the Bears will just have to accept it – so how many of the clans civilians will ask to leave? My bet the majority of free born would want out …. So best to keep their civilians isolated until the warriors can start reforms that will placate their civilians. Less they will leave en mass and the Star League will help them get out.
Third The Cats – they are in the same boat as the Bears but they will have to deal with the DC – and the DC would rather have indentured servants than equals.
As for Clan Wolf in exile – in my realm they do not exist – there was never a period of time where the Falcons / Wolves were at peace with the IS to enable them to fight one another except when they were kicked out of the IS and by then the size of both of their remaining forces next to nil. Marthe Pryde thus initiated a war of absorption and won (otherwise if she returned to Clan Space her clan would have been either absorbed or destroyed by one of the Home Clans for losing the first invasion) – hence the Jade Wolves now exist ….
As for Phelan – either Sa-khan or Bandit caste or captured by Kell Hounds – I am still mulling over this ….
As for Vlad …. Either Sa-khan or Bandit caste or Killed in battle – also mulling over this ….
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Then again, he could well have been in the middle of a fight when the clans first penetrated the official IS border.
Don’t think so when he should be on the new capitol world of the FC Anschluss (former world of new Earth within the Terran corridor)
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excited in battles with the Clans
This is the next big area I need to create.
Invasion – stat with many clan victories – however as time progresses the number of IS forces they have to fight per world increases – the number of damage inflicted upon them also increases.
Their rear is a mess – constant partisan activity is draining forces from their front line forces as IS commando forces penetrate these worlds and help killing off / capturing their small garrisons.
Turtle Bay and the DC reprisal naval battle – destruction of the Smoke Jaguar Vessel.
IS forces – Hanse, Takashi and Theodore are of a similar mind – transfer forces to a single world to form small armies then send them into the Clan OZ forcing the entire Clan to assign massive resources to fight a massive battle involving a single galaxy or more
Fenris forces sent into the deep periphery begin taking Clan Logistic fleets – find Clan forward supply worlds – take them also – cut their line of communication with the Clan Home worlds by taking their HPG space stations etc ….
Star League Reformed
The counter attack begins- start with WW2 Italy –on many worlds – Kesselring’s Lines. Galaxy Vs 5 to 6 RCTs per world
From there move to WW2 – Pacific type campaign Island jumping with massive fleets and forces to take back worlds – by now the massive damage each clan has taken they are beginning to implode – not enough reinforcements to cover those that have died / captured in battle.
Then within all this have key battles
Wolfs Dragoons (inc Natasha) Vs. Clan Wolf – she is now too old to return to the Clans thus she remains with Wolf Dragoons.
Rasalhague – Kell Hounds + FC + DC + FRR Vs Phelan + Wolf + Bear (similar to Luthien)
Camelot Command – massive naval battle + battle within the massive station (20 to 30x the size within canon) then use as a forward supply base to invade the Clans rear.
More Naval Battles
Luthien – as per normal
Twycross – fighting within the storm – and below ground in the tunnels
Expand the Battle OZ to include other worlds outside the Canon Clan OZ – key Battlemench, warship production facilities by Clan Long range military attack groups.
Then on different worlds with different environmental conditions etc.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/12/20 03:14 AM
66.74.60.165
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There is something that may be missing in the need for numbers.
Getting rid of the bs of the IS not making clan tech, it may not be needed to have 6 RCTs to take out a galaxy. With equal tech, that should make it more even, though having superior numbers is always good.
And this should also apply to warhips if that route is taken. The clans do have better armor then the original SL had.
The OA was not the fought over realm that you think. They were able to stay out of invasions that would take their worlds by doing the balance act between the FS and DC.
The TC would not join because of the FS, but they might decide to do something that would prevent the FS from being able to invade their borders. It may not be full membership In the SL, but part of a pack with someone that is, such as the MoC. It would give them some backing, but it isn't much more then political pressure.
Given you want Katherine on the FC throne, this would have some weird things play out.
So no scenario that the Kells are able to lure some of the wolves from the clans to live in the Arc Royal Defense Cordon?
Though I guess that would make the Kells a powerful thorn in her side.
Another thought would be the Wolves leading the home clans in an effort to remove the invading clans from their home worlds, since they were basically forced to participate in the invasion. This was well known in the homeworlds.
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Requiem
05/12/20 07:10 AM
1.158.188.5
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How long does it take to reverse engineer? Best guess …
Lead time can vary from several weeks for very simple parts; months for more complex engineering – as the process is usually faster than the standard development time. However when you factor in material developments this may take time; Then on top of that, producing a mass production manufacturing line – this will take some time. Plus conversion time if you are closing an existing line and rebuilding a new line this may also take some time.
For small simple weapons 6 months to up to a year to start mass production - for more complex weapon system (elemental) 18 months – for the entire ‘Mech / 24 to 30 months.
Then there is the number produced and delivery time and delivery schedule to be worked out.
If you want to take the knowledge you have gained and create something new - an even longer time frame may be necessary from R&D to complete production.
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The OA was not the fought over realm that you think. They were able to stay out of invasions that would take their worlds by doing the balance act between the FS and DC.
If they were able to stay out of the DC / FS fracas this can also be taken as / considered to be a good reason to stay out of the Clan invasion.
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Given you want Katherine on the FC throne, this would have some weird things play out.
How so? My Katherine is not the Canon’s Katherine – Yes she may have thought about getting rid of Victor …. permanently …. But once she found out about Omika she just destroyed his credibility with the people and his Dukes (video images on reality shows will have that effect) – thus Abdication was his only real option, though he was allowed to stay in the Military. As for the DC their view of this relationship is easy to understand ….. send in the ninja ….????
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So no scenario that the Kells are able to lure some of the wolves from the clans to live in the Arc Royal Defense Cordon?
Bondsman and those who escaped from the tyrany of clan life - civilians and PGCs - only.
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Though I guess that would make the Kells a powerful thorn in her side.
Why? She never killed her mother and by extension Salome Ward-Kell is still alive ……. Victors’ extra-curricular activities with Omika is what got him in trouble with his family, realm and with his betrothed (Isis). The Kells have always been loyal to the Lyran state and by extension the Steiner family …. thus, they are loyal to Katherine.
And Katherine is her mother’s daughter and she knows how to get the best out of people ….
Personally, I believe Katherine would draft Morgan Kell and give him one of the small armies to command to strike at the JF with ….. Kell Hounds pus four regular Lyran RCTs ….. fun and games ….
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The wolves
They participated …. They lost …. And they paid for it - thus - absorption, destruction or abjuration …?
Considering their military has been devastated - absorption – Jade Wolf.
Otherwise one or more of the Home Clans would have ended both the Falcon and / or the Wolf – they are weak and the weak are prey for the strong ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/12/20 07:16 AM)
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ghostrider
05/12/20 12:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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The building of clan tech may take a few years, but by 3060, there should be some being made. So that makes it more likely that the superior numbers making the fight that much shorter.
And with the raids on the Clan supply lines, there would be more clantech available to the IS forces, meaning a faster turn around in use.
For the IS, just a small few things would really tilt the balance. Clan double sinks would allow less crits to be used, so more weapons and equipment can fit on other units. Clan missile launchers would go very far with IS forces, which may well be why they didn't want the IS learning that. Imagine the SRM/LRM carriers using half weight launchers. You would definitely run into the max weapons concept very quickly with the standard SRM carrier.
The whole garbage of SL tech used in upgrades and new mechs was pathetic in the mechs before the invasion. Most looked like they were slapped with one or two new systems, as an afterthought. I understand the economy for canon, but that was more of a slap in the face.
The wolves would not be in such dire shape if the war with the Falcons did not happen. Granted, it may have happened if the IS was able to push them out, though not sure if Ulric would stay once the IS shown they were not the push overs the crusaders wanted them to be.
As the alt seems to suggest, there would not be any peace time for that fight to happen.
For Katherine, I was talking about what she would do if the TC did try to join or was part of a pack that had members in the SL. She kept pushing her Lyran half, so would the TC lessen the anger towards the FS portion? Would she demand they be part of the SL? Would she be able to persuade them to at least try to calm down some?
Even assassinating their leader and blame something like the CC underground for it?
Would she 'listen' to advisors and send the SL to annex parts of the TC in order to 'promote' peace on that border?
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Requiem
05/12/20 06:50 PM
1.158.188.5
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Weapons Tech Prior to Clan Invasion – yes I agree all IS Elite Regular units + Elite Merc Units should have a greater access to SL weapons tech and should be upgraded accordingly. As for the remainder their percentage upgrade should be at the whim of each GM but I would put in a caveat that by late 3052 all IS regular units fighting on the Clan front must be 100% upgraded with SL tech.
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The building of clan tech may take a few years, but by 3060, there should be some being made.
Agree, at the minimum – all weapon systems + electronics + many IS variants of elemental armor + a couple of clan omni knock offs + a couple of IS new- omni mechs / vehicles / aerospace fighters.
Between 3055 and 3057 - Assume 25% of all IS regular military updated with IS clan weapons refit packages;
Between 3057 and 3060 - Assume 60% of all IS regular military updated with IS clan weapons refit packages
Between 3060 and 3064 - Assume 100% of all IS regular military updated with IS clan weapons refit packages
* Note this includes all Mech, Aerospace, conventional vehicles, VTOLs, Fighters and Infantry etc.
Also I am setting a tentative first invasion war of 6 to 7 years as many of the battles will get bogged down as the Clans will find themselves in battles of attrition upon many worlds as they WILL have to shift from how they currently fight to how the IS fights – plus they will have to acquire IS vehicles to assist with battlefield logistics / medical requirements etc.
Also many of the clans will find themselves depleted of all (near all) Elementals during the war with the introduction of an IS anti elemental rifle.
As and when clan logistics fleets are captured – each GM should have the right to assign them to their unit(s) of choice – i.e. those on the spear tip first. There needs to be some form of whimsy / a degree of improbability as to when units receive captured Clan logistic fleet tech to upgrade their units weapons. Plus each GM should have any say as to the redesigning of any Mech / Vehicle etc. when reconstruction takes place. But if it is within the current rules why not!
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The wolves would not be in such dire shape if the war with the Falcons did not happen.
By the end of the first invasion they should be – sibko resupply numbers are running low – force depletion reports are running hign – many units are being absorbed into others to keep Clusters / Galaxies numbers at optimal numbers.
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not sure if Ulric would stay once the IS shown they were not the push overs the crusaders wanted them to be.
If Ulric tries to cut and run because the IS are stronger than they first thought – assume challenge to his position as ruler – or even home clans threatening to absorb such a weak Clan Unit …. Politically he would find himself between the rock and the hard place as the Crusaders would view any move as cowardice – and they would take action as per clan norms.
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For Katherine, I was talking about what she would do if the TC did try to join or was part of a pack that had members in the SL.
Remember in this Alt. the FC does not split back into FS and LC – they remain as one FC
Thus, if the TC wanted to join she would accept them. They would then have to obey the rules as per where they are assigned.
Both the FC and the DC each have their commander in chief and both collaborate via Comstar Focht as to what their military operations are so they can coordinate attacks on both sides of the invasion corridor if necessary.
If the TC attacks the FC (FS) she cannot send SLDF units – she can only use regular FC units – however this would go against everything the TC have planned for – they have always stayed with a defense in depth strategy – to shift to full out war and an invasion, it would have to be a far worse reason.
However if other gamers want this war during the Clan Invasion then why not? I would also suggest that the MOC could invade to take them over.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/12/20 11:16 PM
1.158.188.5
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Creating Military Army Units to engage the Clans
For FC - Assume orders are sent to 5 Elite RCTs – and are all within a similar range to Clan OZ
First they are sent to a rendezvous point above a world that can accommodate massive repair facilities.
Eg. Arc Royal (those on the Lyran / FWL border or Skye (coming from the new FWL March and Draconis March)
All Mechs / Vehicles / Infantry etc are provided with new weapons upgrades on a first come basis
Once completed the Unit of 5 RCTs are sent into the Clan OZ to set their garrisons on fire – they are to remain within this unit at all time.
Objective tie down a complete Galaxy on one world – thus they will no longer be able to use blitzkrieg tactics – they are now subject to a war of attrition
Hopefully there should be many of these Army units to engage the Clans Galaxies
By the end of the first 18 months of War with the Clans
ComGuard – 5 army groups (25 regiments)
DC – hopefully they can have 8 army groups (40 regiments)
FC - hopefully they can have 15 army groups (75 regiments)
FRR – 1 army group (5 regiments)
FWL - hopefully they can have 5 army groups (25 regiments)
Dof A and MoC - hopefully they can have 2 army groups (10 regiments)
Wolf Dragoons – 1 army group.
Total of 41 Army Groups
Plus there will be mercenary units mixed in above as well as individual groups assigned to the Clans rear – taking out garrisons / those PGCs that did not switch side etc.
These army groups are supplied with reinforcements from other units as and when required
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/13/20 12:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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One item that can NOT be part of an upgrade kit is endo steel. That requires a full rebuilding of the skeleton, which is very stupid to even try to do in the field. So those units would have to be new builds. That would be a bottle neck there. Ferrous Fiber is something else that might run into issues, as the crits would not be standard as different units would think arms were more for weapons attachment and such.
Another topic to be discussed is omni technology. Can it be a field upgrade to make or does it have to be built into the unit while being made? I would say from factory, as you are talking a major remodel of the internals of the unit.
The military arms unit has an issue that needs to be addressed. The elite regiments being source of it. There are not supposed to be that many elite units to even begin to build more then a few regiments, much less as many as suggested.
The idea of where they start also needs to be looked into.
If the clans were stalled before the 'peace' period, would they have even reached certain worlds, like Twycross, or Wolcott? Even Rassalhague remains questionable.
With the greater defense and counter offensives, would the clans have to rebid or even stop forward momentum into the IS, as their attrition would prevent moving further? Even possible causing for more reinforcements from the home worlds? This would accelerate the whole unhappiness of the home clans. It may well cause them to nullify the bid and send in their own forces, which would cause major issues with their own traditions.
I could use this as a way to suggest the wolves might not have issues leaving the IS, but that would detract from the idea of the home clans pushing for a new invasion scenario.
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Requiem
05/13/20 05:52 PM
1.158.188.5
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Yes –
Endo-Steel requires an orbital facility to manufacture and as such must be included within the construction phase;
Ferro-Fibrous Armor it may be more costly and more difficult to repair or add as an upgrade to a ‘Mech – but it is not impossible.
Omni-technology will also be required at the construction phase;
However, the real issue is
3050 IS Ferro-Fibrous armor – provides more protection per ton than standard armor and takes up more space on the vehicle;
3050 IS Endo-Steel – provides a metal twice as strong per unit weight but at an overall bulk.
The Clans are able to produce more efficient examples ….. to begin with.
Just as weapons can be reverse engineered so too can these, so give it a number of years and expect the IS to be able to produce clan knock offs, then it just comes down to mass production and for which machines / omni-mechs will this new technology be assigned to.
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There are not supposed to be that many elite units to even begin to build more then a few regiments, much less as many as suggested.
Then why not consider the Veteran units to lead the way if there are only a few elite units?
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The idea of where they start also needs to be looked into.
Not really,
First, divide individual Clans into attack groups with their own invasion corridor path – this can be done easily as per each Galaxy are assigned a world – and even clusters may be assigned to a world – the issue is the number of Jump-ships available per attack unit. Initially the Clans should have been able to attack far more worlds than they are within the Canon version – and over time this number should be reducing due to the number of units assigned to garrison duty – protection of logistics – ordered to return to a previously captured world as the planet has been liberated and now must be re-conquered again.
Also the initial battles should be over with very quickly – given their propensity for Blitzkrieg tactics.
Thus with each successive wave the number of worlds being captured should be shrinking due to the reallocation of resources.
Which demonstrates an error within the Canon version – Look at Wave 5 for the Clans as to the number of worlds attacked
Ghost Bear – 18
Jade Falcon – 4
Nova Cat – 10
Smoke Jaguar – 11
Steel Viper – 5
Wolf – 32
Both the Bears and the Wolves must have stripped their interior forces to create an invasion force large enough to conquer this amount of worlds – making them vulnerable or a counter attack by the Falcons and the Jaguars. Inner sphere forces within their invasion corridor (due to reduced garrison numbers) could have attacked - thus this is quite counter intuitive – especially for the Wolves, as any sign of weakness by them should have been pounced on by the Falcons and the Bears / Jaguars as every Clan hates the wolves and any chance that arises that could be used to stick it to the Wolves would have been jumped on by their rival clans!
Given the number of worlds the Falcons attacked they should have had reserves within the ir interior to attack the Wolves – given that they would have had to gut their interior to attack 32 new worlds, so why they didn’t makes no sense.
Both the Cats and the Vipers have only just now been activated – thus they should have been able to attack far more numerous worlds than given (especially the vipers given the number of units they have on hand) so why they didn’t is also a mystery.
It then comes down to the IS’s response – how many units are within proximity that be used initially – and with every battle more information is gleamed as to the Clans preferred fighting style and a more appropriate response is formulated by Hanse and Theodore.
It then comes down to how long it would take for units to travel from their original garrisons (to refit worlds – to be rearmed with the most advanced tech available) and then on to the Clan OZ (front lines) to begin formulating a more effective counter attack. Over time with the formation of small army units – 5 RCTs - to concentrate forces against the clans and turn the battles from Blitzkrieg to attrition – the duration of the battles would be increasing for a single world – something the Clans never prepared for (They will now need vast numbers of logistics and medical personnel on the front lines for Logistical requirements as well as MASH units – thus amore free-born will have to be seconded into this new support base for the warriors – and how many will defect during these battles – thus causing more elementals being diverted from the front line to security operations).
You just need to run the invasion from start (invading the IS) to finish (being kicked out)
And during this you must be on the look-out for special key battles that can flip the game one way or the other per Clan or House.
So what is considered is going to be initially bigger than that of the Canon invasion but over time the clans will have to reorganize their corridors into something more manageable give their decreasing unit numbers.
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If the clans were stalled before the 'peace' period, would they have even reached certain worlds, like Twycross, or Wolcott? Even Rassalhague remains questionable.
Unknown at this stage – I will need time to create a pinboard and a schedule sheet to work this all out and at the moment I do not know when I will get the time to do this.
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With the greater defense and counter offensives, would the clans have to rebid or even stop forward momentum into the IS, as their attrition would prevent moving further?
Given enough time and as the number of small armies – 5 RCT attack groups – are assigned to the Clan OZ their forward momentum will come to halt. They will then begin to be pushed back – something that has never occurred and will be very frightening for the Clans – So somewhere around here is when the two Clan Reserve units should be tapped to increase the scope of the war.
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Even possible causing for more reinforcements from the home worlds?
Yes – most invasion Clans should be “all in” – all reserve units held within the Home Worlds will be called upon to supplement there is forces.
And yes this would accelerate the whole bitterness towards the Invasion Clans the Home Clans are. Resulting in first an argument within the Grand Council and as the amount of animosity increases a civil war Crusader Clans Vs. Warden Clans as to the future of their society as well as the need to reform their military / traditions – the need for conventional vehicles, artillery, infantry / a massive increase to the number of elementals etc on line with how the IS forces otherwise given attrition warfare they will be at a disadvantage.
Thus given the civil war + time to reform their military / society the second IS invasion should start 30 to 40 years after the finish of the first invasion.
During this time period the IS will decide to not go looking for the Clan home worlds – they will take a defensive posture to expand their Navy / create a new buffer state (within the deep periphery) between their Realms (the IS) and that of the Clan Home Worlds – and this will end up being Victor / Omika’s new realm – and their children’s war.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/13/20 08:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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The orbital facilities to make Endo steel isn't the issue. The ENTIRE skeletal structure of the mech would need to be swapped out. Trying to do an arm or a leg at a time would not work. This also means everything in the mech would have to be removed and replaced once the new skeleton was done. And it would be inconsistent on where the crits would be filled. Not sure why this point was missed in the statement.
Clarification. Ferrous Fiber doesn't take up more space on a mech, but the way vehicles are constructed, the crits aren't as cramped or vital as a mechs.
Even though the Wolves/Bears were pretty well protected by the outer two clans, there is only so much you can take from guard duty. The canon versions says the Wolves were less of overlords, so the people didn't resent them as much, so less forces were needed to guard things. This would well lead into more forces for attack. Not saying they didn't draw more heavily on the guard units, as it was said they did. Less friction with the trueborn/freeborn issues of the clanners themselves. Less, not none.
With the new concept of fighting the clans, the IS would definitely have hit worlds left by the major clan forces, which would have caused them to have to go back and reopen their supply lines. So wave 5 would not have them as deep in the alt under these conditions as canon had them. Unless you are going to keep with the faulty logic that the clans just ran over regiments of vehicles and infantry, as well as no counter attacks were successful or even damaging enough to remove from line troops from the clans.
With the concept of having more ship, that lack of can't be used to limit the responses like canon either.
The number of units within reach of the clans invasion would have been changed as well with the alt. You said it yourself. Less would have been lost in the 3039 war, as either the CC didn't survive the 4th and the FC didn't attack the DC. or the CC was the prime target, so the DC wasn't involved as much. It was also suggested by you, that more units would have been built with the lack of heavy fighting as well as the industrial revolution sparked by the Helm Core.
Or did this get changed?
The second invasion? Wouldn't that be something that wouldn't happen, as the SL would be pushing towards the clan home worlds? Or did this change as well?
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Requiem
05/14/20 06:47 AM
1.158.188.5
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The ENTIRE skeletal structure of the mech would need to be swapped out.
Cannot be done in the field (waste of time and energy as too labor intensive for the any military benefit) - only whist being manufactured. – thus it comes back to an orbital facility that can manufacture for the creation of a new Mech.
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The canon versions says the Wolves were less of overlords, so the people didn't resent them as much, so less forces were needed to guard things.
and if anyone believes this to be true ……… sorry but this statement does not hold water –
All the Clans are a Caste based society – something the majority of the IS people will NEVER accept;
Who also believe in removing children from their families – the family unit – how about holidays and recreational equipment even?;
Removing a person’s identity (last name);
Do not believe in money the same way the IS people do;
The IS people will lose all representation with regards to their local government – as the Clans are totalitarian;
The Clans believe how a person is born determines their worth to society; and
They believe that the pinnacle of society is the warrior – in some countries this is the Dr. in Germany it is the Engineer …
The Clans and the people of the IS are like oil and water – there is no way that any person within the IS will accept this BS society – that is unless they want to be a quisling!
Their society is so detrimental to the IS way of life you will be looking at mass resistance movements upon every world.
The Clans have no understanding at all when it comes to understanding any other society and how to work with another society they are completely Ethnocentric!
Something that was completely lost within the canon writings!
So no they would not be able to remove forces within the centre of their realm to gain more worlds during wave 5.
Plus what good is the clans spy service if they cannot keep tabs on their rival Clans? – if the Wolves remove too many forces from the centre of their corridor the Falcons would have definitely invaded with multiple bids to take key Wolf worlds from them just for the fun of sticking it to the wolves.
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guard units
What guard units, go back and look at Clan Wolf Touman – there are no PGCs or solhama - only regular units.
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So wave 5 would not have them as deep in the alt under these conditions as canon had them.
WW2 Italy – they are going to hit a wall where tactics will shift dramatically from blitzkrieg to attrition – and from there on out they will suffer massive damage that cannot be repaired given their limited logistics and sibko numbers.
As for Naval battles they will be fought throughout the invasion timeline.
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3039 war and the implications for the Clan Invasion
CC – destroyed – a minimum of 8 to a max of 15 new RCTs – access to new Mechs – Cataphract, Raven etc - access to conventional fighter manufacturing facilities – access to vengeance Class Drop Ship – access to a new Warship manufacturing facility etc.
DC – as they were not attacked the question of keeping the Ghost units hidden for 11 years is hard to believe – sooner or later they should have become a known fact (maybe not the exact number of units). Then the questions must be asked as to why the Yakuza have access to Star League era ‘Mechs and where did they come from.
Plus the DCMS should have been able to manufacture a couple more regiments
However the amount spy activity with regards to these Ghost Units will be in over drive by the FC, DC and ComStar.
The idea as to what Hanse would do if he did get definitive proof that ComStar provided DC with these mechs is hard to quantify – for me I like the idea of him having a lawn party where it looks as though ComStar has provided him with star league era mechs – thus irritating the FWL and the DC as to what is going on ….. just so he can cause discomfort and distrust as to ComStar’s motives.
Thus for the FC number of units / mechs / Warships / Dropships / Jumpships etc increases as they can now draw on the entire CC for the past 10 years.
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so the DC wasn't involved as much
No – they would have used as many of their Regiments as possible.
It is just that by 3050 the FC would have three times the forces the DC have so the main brunt of the war would have come from the FC on to the Clans – so the majority of the ComGuard would have been posted into the DC to assist them once the new Star League was formed.
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more units would have been built with the lack of heavy fighting + new technology
Correct for the past 10 years the IS have been in a state of relative peace – every Great House should have been able to produce more of everything.
However – with the arrival of the Clans and a declaration of Total War production (as per USA WW2) – the amount of new IS production should includes exponentially - as time goes on the Clans will soon find themselves being out produced as the IS sould be able to produce at couple hundred times that of the Clans Home worlds and sooner or later attrition should wear them down until they are finally kicked out (as evidenced with the fact that one Clan has the population of just one IS world).
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The second invasion? Wouldn't that be something that wouldn't happen, as the SL would be pushing towards the clan home worlds? Or did this change as well?
Due to the massive IS deaths the IS will not follow the Clans back to their Home Worlds – they will stop and attempt to heal / rebuild new realms etc into the deep periphery etc.
30 – 40 years latter they will realize the error of not finishing the job as the Clans start a second invasion of the IS – this time all the clans will attack as one force! (This is the long term plan!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/14/20 12:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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Only the endosteal itself needs to be zero-g made. The mechs can be made planetside.
So you can't believe the wolves were less hostile to their conquered? So would that mean you don't believe the character Ulric in the story line? He would be the main one telling the rest to just leave the populace alone.
Not sure why removal of the last name is such a big deal? That is unless you are of noble blood and want to flaunt that.
Now the issue for the clan's watch. According to the loyalty instilled in most trueborns, spying is considered something only the dark caste would do. I think most other clans would know if you failed to become a warrior, so when you show up to try and infiltrate theirs, well, it just doesn't work. And they would not be able to do much working the IS. Which is part of why the entire Dragoons project as well as Wolfnet seems unlikely.
Still not getting the concept with the alt time line? The extra facilities as well as no major war means more troops lived and are present when the clans attacked. That means more on the 'northern' border areas as well as reinforcements being moved quicker. This would include bigger militias on some, If not all the worlds the clans hit. With the black box deployed as you wanted, the secret of the invasions would have made it to their military much quicker, as well as more information on them. The clans would not have been near Twycross and such if all this was true.
With the extra aerospace units you touted starting much earlier in the time frame, such as 3025, this would also reduce the clans gains.
Also, the better the tech, the more likely of warships earlier, which is something else you said you were going to use. So the clans advantage there would main be numbers for some, and experience for the clanners. The fact that the clans would probably have to escort their forces with a warship would slow them down even more.
I would say the new SL forces would be in the FRR more then the DC, but as stated above, the entire idea that the clans would not get that far, as there is more units and equipment available to the IS, it may well be the FC/DC are able to spare some forces to help the FRR. So almost the entire invasion would be different from the start.
So what made you change the IS from going after the clan home worlds? You were pushing for a complete destruction of the clans before.
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Requiem
05/15/20 12:03 AM
1.158.188.5
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Only the endo-steal itself needs to be zero-g made. The mechs can be made planet-side.
Correct
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So you can't believe the wolves were less hostile to their conquered?
The Clans have a range of volatility when it comes to IS civilians
Jaguars being the worst.
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So would that mean you don't believe the character Ulric in the story line?
The character as written is just the military persona – he and the Wolf Clans’ actions as to their actions with IS civilians is completely left in the dark when it comes to the novels, and there are only statements like written above “were less of overlords, so the people didn't resent them as much,”
The question is what does this actually mean? We can only go on how they treat their own people back on the Clan Home worlds and how an average IS person would “appreciate” being treated in the same way – and the answer is clear, they would fight the Wolves to the death if they attempted to implement many of their more ludicrous societies / government beliefs on IS people ….
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He would be the main one telling the rest to just leave the populace alone.
No he wouldn’t. He would not even care about the IS people as long as it does not disrupt his military and they do as they are told. It is up to the highest ranked person per world to “govern” the world under their control. Not once in all on the novels did he even once discuss the issue of IS civilians!
Remember they are a Totalitarian Government who takes children away from their parents and removes peoples identity by stripping them of their last name - this fact does not ever change!!!!!!!
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the clan's watch
Ever since the days of Nicholas every Clan has been watching all the other Clans – in the home they can spot weakness / new technology they can exploit / obtain. It is highly implausible that this spying would suddenly disappear just because they have entered the IS.
Remember this is a race to become the il-Clan – if one clan can hobble the advance of another it is acceptable – so if the Falcons can hobble the Wolves all the better for them.
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The clans would not have been near Twycross and such if all this was true.
I have yet to have the time to sit down and work this out – so I cannot comment
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With the extra aerospace units you touted starting much earlier in the time frame, such as 3025, this would also reduce the clans gains.
Correct – given the number of fighters and bombers available to IS forces the Clans forces would require massive more fighters. But this also extends to their elementals as well, the figures as provided by cannon is way below where it should be to be an effective part of the invasion given that IS infantry have access to support weapons that can kill an elemental.
Remember the Canon game was designed with the premise that only those forces within the 2nd Edn. House Books exist - massively reducing every Houses forces – they then reduce the IS forces by ignoring the fact that every world should be able to produce conventional aircraft, armor and Infantry weapon systems with relative ease and in vast numbers. Thus as soon as the fact becomes apparent the Clans Military (as per Canon figures) are now completely useless – as any world with a substantial population should have a tank, fighter and infantry force that could give even a Clan Galaxy a run for their money!
Thus like everything within the Invasion a rewrite as to the Clans Invasion numbers will be required lest the entire invasion will be over way too quickly!
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the more likely of warships earlier
As stated previously I am going to allow IS to have warships as at the time of the invasion – otherwise the IS must be allowed nukes against them – thus in the interest of removing nukes from the game the IS must have warships if the Clans have them. Plus their ability to manufacture them in vast numbers will become apparent during the game when yo take into consideration the massive industrial base of the IS – it comes back to WW2 Japan Vs America – they awoke a sleeping industrial powerhouse who initially was badly hurt but over time could manufacture vast amounts of materials ….. especially when just one IS world has the same GDP as an entire clan …. The idea that the clans could survive for a long period of time within the IS becomes a ludicrous concept.
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So the clans advantage there would main be numbers for some, and experience for the clanners.
Yes the IS has vast numbers and experience when it comes to attrition – long term warfare where logistics play a big part in the battles outcome.
The clans, initially have technology on their side – better trained warriors – and massive experience with using dueling / blitzkrieg warfare (however their logistics is a joke when it comes to reinforcements from a sibko system).
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The fact that the clans would probably have to escort their forces with a warship would slow them down even more.
To start off with – doubtful – but as the IS forces become more daring and the number of ships disappear – yes.
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I would say the new SL forces would be in the FRR more then the DC
Considering how small the FRR is on the map – I doubt it – the ComGuard would be better placed striking with the DC.
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So almost the entire invasion would be different from the start.
Agree – once I have some free time to investigate it will be interesting to consider – but first I will need to completely re-vamp the size of every Clans forces to something that can give the IS a stand up fight. As is the numbers are just not there with regards to Fighters and Elementals.
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So what made you change the IS from going after the clan home worlds? You were pushing for a complete destruction of the clans before.
I was considering History / politics – how many times has an enemy been defeated only to rise up again because the job was only half done? Plus human apathy – the war was won we drove off the enemies …. The damage to our forces are great …. Time to rebuild…. We don’t need to chase them to the ends of the universe ….. <and yet in hindsight maybe this would have been the best course of action>
Plus the idea of having a second war in the far future, with a re-vamped clans, will make for a great story - when you put the next generation into the mix …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/15/20 04:12 AM
66.74.60.165
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Actually, there are a few statements that the wolves were not so harsh on their own. The fact that the labor and merchant castes were willing to go out of their way and help Ulric says a lot. Also, the entire canon line says they were not as bad. In the alt, they might well be happy to whip anyone that looks at them funny.
There is a huge difference between being a spy in the clans and trying to be on in the IS. One big thing is the fact that a clan spy entering the IS would not even begin to know how to act or react to things. Protests against their leaders would visually show the person sicken, as obedience is something the clans are instilled with. You fight a trial if you do not agree. You don't run protests.
The clans tend to be less able when it comes to counter spies. Not completely useless, but compare to the IS and ROM agents, the pale. Any questions on history in the IS would show they are not from it. The use of a new term for a planet would show this.
The clans numbers and experience wasn't talking about IS using attrition to win. It was about having warships in the initial invasion. They had experience with fighting with them, though it was more ceremonial then what the IS would have, but enough to keep one on one as a win for their sides most of the time. The IS would use numbers when they can.
As said before. Why would you leave the middle open so the enemy can get into your rear areas? The FRR would be a far better place to base the anti clan units at, as they could hit all over the corridor with less time lag. They could still help the DC greatly, but forcing the Jaguars to deal with 2 fronts, maybe 3 if the Bears decides to mess with them. Not saying they wouldn't have units in the DC, but it seems like a poor choice to have the bulk of your units, when your goal is taking out all the clans. A large group would force the clans to cut back on assaults, or else lose the smaller unit actions.
Interesting on the change that the damage to the forces was so bad, you don't want to push it, is pretty much why the Lyrans didn't hit Falcons after the Wolf war. This is also why a few other points in history didn't show the extermination of the enemy when their should have been.
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Requiem
05/15/20 05:46 AM
1.158.188.5
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The fact that the labor and merchant castes were willing to go out of their way and help Ulric says a lot.
What is the incentive that drives workers? Additional Benefits or the absence of being disciplined?
Unless there is a categorical explanation as to the incentive of workers I cannot help but speculate. Especially when you look at other readings – such as their idea of a Police force – Elemental Washouts who are more like thugs than a dedicated Police force.
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There is a huge difference between being a spy in the clans and trying to be on in the IS.
Correct – but as this is about a spying on a fellow Clan it should be achievable …. They have been doing this since Nicholas established the first group to watch the Wolverines … so they must have a modicum of skill …
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….. having warships in the initial invasion
Both sides have less than stellar understanding of how to conduct void warfare with regards to warships.
Thus both sides may be reviewing any information they have on the subject and conducting multiple shakedown cruises to teach the crews.
Even crossing the” T” in a three dimensions may be an issue to work out. (refer WW1 Battle of Jutland)
However over time the IS should be able to out-produce the Clans in the number of ships the question still must be asked though how many are still within their holding fleets in deep space that were part of the exodus?
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Why would you leave the middle open so the enemy can get into your rear areas?
Then how did the Wolves pull enough forces together to take 31 worlds during wave 5 if they didn’t pull forces from many of their worlds?
Thus creating a lack of garrison forces on many worlds during this time frame.
Thus creating an opportunity for the Falcons …. And the Bears ….
In all reality this Wave 5 push by Clan Wolf is a classic example of over extending their lines at the detriment of their logistics – did no one read about the Battle of Teutoburg Forest – “Varus give me back my legions!”
Really after a while I begin to wonder how the Clan Invasion was formulated give the amount of issues I have discovered …
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Interesting on the change that the damage to the forces was so bad, you don't want to push it, is pretty much why the Lyrans didn't hit Falcons after the Wolf war
Except for the fact the ARDC has its own forces that are undamaged by the Civil War – including the Kell Hounds etc – remember how badly both the Wolves and the Falcons were at the end of this war? The wolves went on to harvest warriors from the Jaguars even! At this stage the Lyrans could have easily taken back the entire area the Falcons and the Wolves had taken.
In not taking the war to the Falcons and the Wolves (post war) shows a pivotal mistake by everyone concerned.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/15/20 12:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wasn't talking about the wolves when I returned your statement of leaving the middle open. That was in response to the SL troops being mainly stationed in the DC, not the FRR. The discussion said the DC/FC would NOT just leave the FRR to fend for itself, as it would allow the clans to smash thru them and hit their nation's area closer to Terra.
A pincer movement does just this, but with the IS, there is no real coordination to do this on a grand scale. It also trusts that you can delay the middle forces or hit them with enough forces from the flanks to stop them from moving forward and causing them to turn their backs on one of the flankers.
Again, the idea of time delay and not having exact information Is eluding you. If intel operated like it seems is being suggested, there would be absolutely instantaneous actions to any movement of forces. Not sure if that is confusing the ability to get word to units a few miles, maybe 10 or so from a location or if you think there are thousands of trained spies on each world. Simply reporting the local forces haven't been seen isn't the same thing as they being moved to an assault unit on another world. The agent could well have missed their assignment to another part of the planet or even system. For the clans, the numbers are even more against them. Their limited populations would mean far less spies would be there then even the CC or periphery states.
But the amount of spies works against the IS as well, though they have a larger number then the clans.
Risk has always been a part of war. Doing as the wolves did, they took advantage of the others lack of coordination among their own troops. As the FRR wasn't as strong as the FC/DC, they had less issues then the JF/SJ. The GB should have been able to do more then they did. Not sure if it was their bidding that slowed them down so much. I know it was written that way, but not sure if it was just a gut thing or based on some logic. It may well be, the GB's own traditions had to have a warship with the units invading. I don't know.
Mistakes are constantly made. And the true extent of the Falcon/Wolf fight was not known until Phelan got to the ARDC. Even then, the amount of damage was not known. But even with that, they could not risk leaving worlds undefended, in order to strike out at either or both. I think some raids should have happened to test this, as been the case for the entire succession war history, which is part of why Katherine was not the ruler she is made out to be. She was more worried about her image and power, that she did not want to shift any forces to deal with the weakened border.
The ability to harvest troops from other clans could well be why they didn't move as well. How did they know the Falcons didn't have a large number of troops ready to arrive just before the Refusal war happened? Saying the Wolves in exile would have known this, because they wouldn't have.
Another thing, the ARDC looked to take up the slack of defending their area, while cutting out quick access to the LA troop movements on the border. To send out forces to hit the clans would have allowed Katherine to send troops into the ARDC to take them out.
This is not, nor can not, be an all or nothing set up, as losing a majority of your forces leads to your people paying the price, as well as you. And you would lose more then a few doing so.
The all or nothing is why nukes are an issue. Concentration of forces makes a single nuke devastating to that huge group. But yet, there are just as powerful weapons that can be used from orbit, which does not leave the radiation of a nuke. And a warship is not needed to use it.
Also, in a sci fi game, I would think they would have come up with other weapons, such as a fission bomb, or maybe antimatter. Even opening up a 'jump' portal in the middle of a unit would do some major damage. It just needs to open and destroy the stuff around it, like a jump ship does. It doesn't have to really do anything more.
Which leads me to have to ask. Does an HPG on a world cause a thunder shockwave when it is used? Either like lightning superheating the air, causing it to rapidly expand? Or when the portal closes, and the air rushes back in to refill the void left by the portal?
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Requiem
05/16/20 02:27 AM
1.158.188.5
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The discussion said the DC/FC would NOT just leave the FRR to fend for itself, as it would allow the clans to smash thru them and hit their nation's area closer to Terra.
This is why there must be multiple lines of defense (same as WW2 Italy)
However for the Clans to conduct this strategy this would require them to go against their own martial culture of Superiority over the Inner Sphere – their idea of honor, bidding etc. as it should now be considered to be disregarded. As they would be bypassing many strong enemy military positions to attack weaker targets – something the average Clan warrior would consider dishonorable.
In my Alt.
The problem with the I.S. is they require a strong coordinated military strategy – thus one commander to strategically control the big picture – that is a Supreme Allied Commander – an Eisenhower. Thus as soon as the Star League is re-formed in the first / second year of the Clan Invasion, and by extension the SLDF – a supreme allied commander is required – and the only viable candidate I can see is Morgan Hasek-Davion (excluding all House Leaders) as he is the only person who has the prerequisites. Thus causing issues with re to the DC thus in order to placate the DC his XO would have to be Hohiro Kurita II.
As the problem with Anastasius Focht is that he is ComGuard – he is a complete unknown – and Comstar has just undergone a trial for their perfidy with supplying the Clans with Military Information / administering their conquered worlds (ie quislings) thus he is tainted by Primus Myndo Waterly. Thus in my Alt Focht is relegated to Charles de Gaulle.
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Again, the idea of time delay and not having exact information Is eluding you.
Sorry but no, I am quite aware of the time delay when it comes to the flow of information – as for spies in this area there should be many spies per world as this is a former DC realm – now the FRR – and on the FC / DC border. Proximity alone dictated the need for a dozen or so per world. As for the skill of the spies, what they can / cannot do this is again speculative – the problem is the clans do not have a dedicated military counter-intelligence organization – they do not have the security forces to even create an adequate security force per garrison – they do not have an adequate police force – there is just no way the clans can adequately govern any world with a serious population unless they use terror tactics (obey or we will wipe this town and its entire population of the map) the Clans Population / invasion military is ridiculously too small to be able to be considered to achieve a viable military objective.
So again - to bring reality back to the game the Clan’s military requires an adjustment. Upon receiving the initial report from Wolf’s Dragoons (3020/21) military analysts should have recognized the issue of a social disparity between that of the Clans and the people of the IS – (if they don’t then the majority of their military gains are just doomed to failure as their small garrisons should be able to be killed off by a company of snipers) – Thus the Leviathan (Jump-ship) must become a staple of all the Clans ….. so that the clans must now have
MechWarriors
Aerospace Pilots
Elementals
And now mass Infantry which includes MPs and some sort of counter intelligence teams – as well as a vast array of vehicles to assist their infantry as well as logistical support vehicles.
The Clans would also need a dedicated Administrate Unit – and some sort of plan for if and when a sizeable planet is conquered – 7,000,000,000 people on one world and no plan to govern them?
Otherwise the entire idea as to a clan invasion is reduced to the status of a joke.
The issue with the Ghost Bears is their population – for some strange reason they have half the population as that of the next Clan at only 25,000,000 – thus making it ‘easer’ for them to conduct their Clan wide exodus to the IS – did someone even point out to the Clans that a population of 25,000,000 people is the same as just one city on a major world within the IS? Thus making the idea of an invasion, even with their superior technology, a completely a completely and utterly ludicrous proposition.
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And the true extent of the Falcon/Wolf fight was not known until Phelan got to the ARDC.
What the? The LC and the ARDC couldn’t work out how vulnerable these two clans really were for over a year – thus they did nothing during this entire year - so they didn’t re-conquer their lost worlds during this year?
And what were the Inner Sphere spies doing during this period – sipping tea on the balcony?
At the end of their war one unit, such as the Kell Hounds, dropping onto the top of the “Jade Wolves” could have killed off the leadership of the Falcons and the Wolves and destabilized their entire Occupation Zones of these two Clans – that could have allowed for a total recapture of this entire area.
Any yet what happened - both the Falcons and the Wolves were allowed to Harvest enough troops from the Jaguars / Clan Home Worlds to bring them back to 100% operational capabilities thus requiring a period of vulnerability FOR OVER A YEAR ( 6 moths there and 6 months back)!
Time to realize the entire aftermath of the Falcon / Wolf War holds no reality whatsoever!
It is not a question of what Katherine would have done it is a question of what Morgan and the ARDC should have done!
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The all or nothing is why nukes are an issue
As soon as the idea of nukes or an orbital bombardment is considered the ground warfare game is no longer an issue – might as well give up with all ground forces and concentrate on building a massive navy.
Thus the need for a mechanism to outlaw these from the game – i.e. there needs to be a dedicated list as to the rules of war. As for sci-fi weapons – once activated they will destroy everything any use of them will also destroy the game unless they is a way to also neutralize them.
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Does an HPG on a world cause a thunder shockwave when it is used?
It id does then it would have been weaponised by 3025.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/16/20 03:28 AM
66.74.60.165
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Given earlier discussions the multiple lines of defense sounds backwards from previous posts. The ones where every trooper on a world should be in one spot. The fact that you can't have them all in one location is why it is so difficult to be a smaller but compact enemy. You might have 1million troopers, but only 30k in one location. So someone with 60k, can destroy a lot before you can chase them down.
There is a unit missing from the clans should have in their inventory, which is vehicles. Mechs, fighters and elementals are all useful, but there are more then a few cases that vehicles are more efficient. One case would be crossing a sea when the enemy controls the skies. Hovers would come to mind. And the clan vehicles should be smartly made. Not the crap of nerfing them to the point of being as useless as the trueborns think they are.
The ineptitude of the IS spies is a sore point with the clans. They found out a lot more difficult issues with less resources before the clans showed up. The slow response for blunting the clans was a bit to slow. As said about the Galtor Campaign, there were over a dozen units rotated out of that fight. Time did have something to do with it, but the fact they even had that many to send that quickly shows something was wrong with the response. That is probably why the amount of troops had to be cut so much. There is no way the response would be that bad otherwise.
The intel shadow war would have had the FC moving away from Comstar for important messages that didn't need to be there right away. It would even be likely to be used to contact troops in the same system as the sender, as it is much faster then normal coms.
Other reasons, such as not wanting to put the people thru another meat grinder was used to explain the lack of attacks on the Falcons/Wolves, but given it was after the truce went into effect, why didn't comstar have any say in going at them? To remove the Wolves from the FRR would have given them a boost up in reputation after operation scorpion was done. The Bears would have been either happy to see it, or worried as it meant the Wolves were not on their border, but an IS force.
The have to have nukes or warships isn't the only response to the clans warships. It makes it a little easier to remove them, but not the only way.
But no matter the game, any sort of air power tends to shut down land battles quickly. There is no easy way around it. With this concept, the IS would have moved away from mechs, as it was far to expensive to make and use them, verses large amounts of fighters, both space and atmospheric, as well as Vtols. The Vtols being the easier to use, as you don't need dedicated runways. The aero fighters can use space bases, but response time and knowing the enemy will have to do something about that limits them a little.
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Requiem
05/16/20 05:14 AM
1.158.188.5
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The ones where every trooper on a world should be in one spot.
Sorry you have lost me here …..
Very basically ….
Counterattacking the Clan’s Main thrust are multiple 5 RCT Groups
Behind the scenes are the Fenris forces in the Deep Periphery
Deep strike groups in the Wave 1 / wave 2 area assisting partisans / destroying garrisons etc – setting the Clans Rear / internal OZ ablaze.
Out from the OZ there are multiple worlds where IS units undergo refit with the most up to date tech available – they are then to be sent in as replacement personnel as and when required – they are also to be used in the event the Clans decide to strike out / jump the line – as ready reaction force.
Then there are multiple IS naval units within the Clan OZ and outside protecting anything of importance.
In addition to this every world within a reasonable strike radius has been put on alert and is to notify supreme HQ and their House Lord of any new developments via ComStar HPG / Black Box as required.
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Clan vehicles
The clans have less than 30 years to get their vehicles together – it is up to each Clan (GM / Game Group) to build these.
But I do agree they should be something interesting – and they should also be omni.
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IS / clan spies
Both groups have a vast amount of problems with them in every time period – from the ir professionalism – how they operate and what information they should be able to find out …. Every GM / Gaming group should be able to make their own determinations for their games for I doubt we would ever get two people agreeing on this point.
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Other reasons, such as not wanting to put the people thru another meat grinder was used to explain the lack of attacks on the Falcons/Wolves
And yet this is their job – to go through the meat grinder when ordered to do so.
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To remove the Falcons and the Wolves
In all reality they should have become bondsman or run back to the Clan Home worlds – where one or more of the Home Clans would have absorbed or annihilated them.
That leaves the Jaguars and Vipers and Cats and Bears ….. what happens next after the removal of the Wolves and the Falcons would be subject to great deal of conjecture … from retreating back to the Clan Home worlds to calling for new Clans from the Home-worlds to replace those that have been lost ….
But whatever the choice is the Clans would be horrified at what the barbarian IS are capable of …. Though they may lay the blame at the feet of the Wolves and the Falcons …. They destroyed themselves!
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It makes it a little easier to remove them, but not the only way.
In the absence of IS warships – how else are you going to deal with Clan’s Warships?
With regards to fighters and bombers – where is the Mech weapon system that made them obsolete to begin with otherwise what was the point of making Mechs?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/16/20 12:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans have always had vehicles. It isn't like they left them all behind when they left the IS. In the 3060 TRO, the Epona hover tank has been used for over seventy years, which is an omni vehicle as well. So that means before 2990 it was being used.
The reality of the keeping soldiers fighting, leads to morale issues as well as a complete breakdown of your military. They are not machines. Some are stuck where they are, no matter what. Not being able to recover them being a main reason why, but to actually order them to stay there is where you start having issues.
What is the point of making mechs?
That is what most people don't want asked. There is very little reason to have mechs if you really think about it. Elementals basically remove a the major reason why they 'had' to keep mechs going. Infantry was hard to score quick victories against other infantry, and tended to do poorly against a well made tank. That was changed with the Elemental. Then changing infantry damage, so an Awesome could not wipe out a platoon or more with each volley.
Vehicles, with the exception of not being able to be dropped in a HALO situation, and not being able to move thru heavy woods, tend to be equal to a mech of the same tonnage. Vehicles only started falling behind with the advance of the double heat sink, were near equals. Movement being the main advantage of the mech. In close combat, the physical attack comes to the forefront.
With this, where is the advantage to mechs? They cost more, need more maintenance, take up for more room, and need specialized training to really work them. This is why vehicles have to be nerfed, as logic would say they should be used only in specialized roles, such as the initial HALO drops, yet now elementals can do that.
If not for being the game of stompy robots, there becomes a major logic issue with continuing to promote mechs over other combat units.
Not saying vehicles should replace them, as I like using the stomp against others, but if you really think about it, they are expensive toys.
One more thing came to mind before closing this post. You can reduce the number of people needed, as the mechs only require one person to run it. Costs are the same, as an other unit is paid the same for all the soldiers, IE an entire tank crew combined is about the same salary as a single mech warrior.
Added note. The wiki says 2884 as the year for the Epona to be released. The TRO didn't have a date of release in it.
Edited by ghostrider (05/16/20 12:03 PM)
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Requiem
05/16/20 05:28 PM
1.158.188.5
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The clans have always had vehicles.
Yes I would agree they definitely should have them – however once Nicholas created the Clans and his rules of war their place in the order of battle became sidelined to something only a freeborn would be given …. Thus hampering any future military operations if an enemy with vehicles who utilized them to their full extent (such as in the IS).
The same could be said of the Elemental – bigger stronger able to carry larger weapons – sounds like a good idea – but once you have seen a Gurkha in operation you will realize the error of that statement.
Then there is the issue of support weapons that should be able to take out an Elemental – OS Missile launchers, high cal. Sniper rifle, mobile lasers, ….. eg. A Hellbore Assault laser (man portable and supposed to take out a vehicle) … what about all the different recoilless rifles (many of which are based on 20th Century tech.)?
And yet where were these types of weapons during the invasion for infantry support? Sooner or later a massed companies of infantry should have been able to decimate any elemental assault – the range / destruction difference would decimate the elementals in most terrains.
And yet where are their support vehicles to assist their main combat units whist they are in the field / garrison units i.e.
Recovery Vehicles
Battlefield repair gantry vehicles
Ammunition transport
Coolant vehicle
MASH
Ambulance – Ground and VTOL
Logistics support / transport etc.
Thus the only way the clans could support their units in the field is to move their dropships and use them ……
Thus the IS would have designated every Clan Dopship as a primary target for their commando units ….and as a consequence the invasion has multiple issues …..
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The reality of the keeping soldiers fighting, leads to morale issues as well as a complete breakdown of your military.
Officers will have the best interest of their enlisted personnel at the forefront of their minds – but this is why they signed up and took their pay – and this is why they have spent so much time and energy training ….. Rotation on the front line as well as R&R still exist? …. Or do infantry units now require an embedded crisis councilor with every unit and maybe we can all sit in a circle and sing kumbaya?
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What is the point of making mechs?
Yes what is the point of having them if all the military is going to do is use orbital bombardments and nuke everything in sight?
The holy trinity is still in effect when it came to their designs, the mix of – firepower, movement and armor – a Mech is supposed to be designed to go into environments Vehicles could never be able to go into their maneuverability should have been far in advance of any vehicle considering their jump jets as well as their ability to submerge into water, they are also supposed to be able to work in the most extreme of environments from space (on a moon) to high and low temperature worlds – they were supposed to contain a massive array of electronics (but somehow never made it into the game) – they were supposed to have weaponry far in advance of any vehicle – and they were supposed to be easier to use whist in the field to achieve military objectives ……
As for one person operating a mech – there should be more two seat varieties out there when – if they ever decided to include electronics into the game (advanced recon ‘mechs) / as well as for training mechs ……
However there is also the need for a good crew chief / and a crew to maintain the Mech and keep it armed and armored – on base and in the field that must be taken into consideration.
Where are the Clans infield maintenance crew and how do they get to the front lines if they do not have any vehicles?
Sorry to say but the games issues really needed to be fixed 30 years ago!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/16/20 05:30 PM)
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ghostrider
05/17/20 01:52 AM
66.74.60.165
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The clans DO have vehicles. They have had them since the exodus and have upgraded and created new ones.
I can see the developers not wanting to have them in the forefront, as it shows just how poor mechs can be, once the players see that they were set up with some very exploitable quirks. The no heat from missile or ballistic weapons was a mistake that still bites them today. LRM/SRM carriers put to shame the firepower of a lot of mechs, and with the half weight launchers, it does even more shaming. Only the armor was a saving grace for facing them. They were very lightly armored.
Even with Ferrous Fiber, they are still relatively lightly armored, until you start halving their launcher weight. Now you have more tonnage to add more armor, as well as increase the number of launchers on it. The weight of the AC holds it back as a weapons system, but still more effective on a vehicle.
Not sure the clans used the dropships for everything. Maybe shuttles, but even that sounds a bit much. In atmosphere aircraft should be part of their forces, though they would probably let them remain on their own, just to watch how 'pitiful' they are.
Might want to join the military and serve a few tours in a combat situation before insulting soldiers like that. They do put their lives on the line. But no human can be under fire 7 days a week for months on end. It is even worse when the enemy isn't a stand up fighter. Those that just snipe you, makes it that much worse for nerves.
This is one set of insults that needs to end right now.
The entire argument given a while back pointed towards just that. If you can keep the enemy from your world, what is the point of having thousands of mechanized units to guard it? Police to keep the peace, but for the main defense, space assets are far better then ground forces.
This is why they had to nerf everything they could, to prevent this concept from catching on. I said it before. They should have left warships for dead. No matter what you do, you can not logically make them any different. Less powerful, and the costs would make you look elsewhere. With being so powerful, you basically run into the last man with one becomes the greatest threat to all. Both sides are right to argue their point, yet there is no real way to say the other is wrong.
And one more thing. Removing nukes from the game destroys the history of the game. It stops most fights from getting as far as they did, or on the opposite side, doesn't stop the invasion. The Sea Skimmer water boat's fluff says it all. They used a tactical nuke to destroy a dam in order to stop a Kuritan force from reaching their goals. Not against the forces themselves, but a dam holding back water that flooded more then what the nuke could do.
I dislike the use of them, but there isn't any way to sterilize the game in order to take them out, and not have major issues. So before you scream they have to be gone, do a full run of what the IS would be like, hell, the original SL would be like if they wre never used.
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Requiem
05/17/20 04:15 AM
1.158.188.5
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The clans DO have vehicles. They have had them since the exodus and have upgraded and created new ones.
And yet, during the invasion, not one was seen on or off the battlefield.
Thus showing how limited the Clans Battlefield tactics were - in the absence of any support vehicles the Clans are limited to very quick battles only – draw the Clans into any extended combat and the lack of any logistical support vehicles will prove their ultimate folly.
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….they would probably let them remain on their own, just to watch how 'pitiful' they are.
These warriors are supposed to be Clan who adhere to the Mongol way of life. For them not to engage proves the Clans have no courage in the face of war …. Their culture is built upon the belief of proving your combat worthiness, to not fight is going against Nicholas and all the traditions and heritage of the Clans.
They (the Clans) will have no choice but to fight until one side or the other lies defeated at the feet of the other.
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But no human can be under fire 7 days a week for months on end.
Consider the Germans in their bunkers on the front during WW1.
Consider the durations of war throughout the 20th Century – many were in a state of war for many years - WW1 and 2 and Korea for example – and some decades - Vietnam is a very good example of this from Japanese – French – American …..
This is what I was stating – there are periods on and off the battlefield as multiple battles are fought but the wars can go on and on, year in and year out …. and until one side is victorious their soldiers will remain fighting the good fight …..
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space assets are far better then ground forces.
Naval units …. Yes …. Mobility is the key any naval engagement.
Static satellite defenses ….. not so much …. Just stand off if you have a longer range and use them for target practice.
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They should have left warships for dead.
Quite impossible ….in any war scenario where there is a sea present there will be a naval unit.
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Removing nukes from the game destroys the history of the game.
Creating a gizmo that makes them obsolete will in no way destroy the game – in all games there must some rules and this is one that should be included - no WMDs. If you want them in your game then leave me out of it!
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there isn't any way to sterilize the game in order to take them out, and not have major issues.
The majority of the 4th SW seemed perfectly fine without them.
So why not keep them out of the game?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/17/20 04:05 PM)
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ghostrider
05/18/20 02:40 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue is that most of the clans view vehicles as targets, not real weapons of war.
Outside of the game, I get the feeling a lot of things were not really thought of before needing more things for the next TRO. A few of the tanks can NOT be laughed at like the books suggest. They are more then capable of taking out larger mechs in a single volley.
The focus on single combat is the excuse for this. You can't brag of kicking butt, if you have a team running the equipment with you.
The clans have been known to leave their own units behind to be destroyed when they think the units are inferior. The Naga states that in the fluff. And since a true clan warrior would not be in an atmospheric craft, the pilot would have to 'prove' themselves in combat to gain their respect. So freeborn only flying them. Get the hint?
The only reason why soldiers of the WWI and WWII era were in combat so long, was they had no real reserves to rotate the fatiguing front line for some rest. And those were normally on defense, where the enemy could pull out units to put in new ones, yet you couldn't do much, otherwise, you could probably retreat.
The statement of nukes being removed destroying the games history wasn't about the playing the game, but the actual story lines past. As it was said further in that paragraph, the SL would not have been in such sad shape at the end of the Amaris war. Hell, Amaris may not have even won that one, give the fact that a lot of good troops were killed from nukes and orbital bombardments. The first war was even more devastating. So remove nukes all you want. Just make sure you remove it from before your storyline starts. Otherwise, that logic fails from the start.
And so you know, having them in the game, and using them are two different things. They are part of reality, and will never be removed from the war arsenal of anyone. Using them is the key here. Sadly, there will always come a time when someone deems they are necessary. Not saying for their goals, but try to make it sound like they are saving the world.
I could take this one step further and say you can't use flamers on anything, especially infantry and civilians. So flamers should be outlawed and remove from the game. Torture, assassination and other things follow close behind.
The DC uses chemical weapons on one world to killed the defenders. So WMDs were not perfectly left out of the 4th war.
It is a bit sad that saying nukes need to stay out of the game, yet it is the ONLY VIABLE way to counter clan warships. There are other ways to do so. Expensive, but there.
Now the bs of the game comes down to how sensors work. The clans spot everything and can hide from anything until the player or IS gets ahold of the tech, then it doesn't work. Well not until the story needs a force to remain hidden until a specific time, then the full cloaking devices come out. Is it the IS pilots that produce the extra heat that the clans equipment tracks? Or maybe the trueborns are right and the freeborns smell so bad, they are picked up when hiding?
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Requiem
05/18/20 04:53 AM
1.158.188.5
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The issue is that most of the clans view vehicles as targets, not real weapons of war.
I agree, it does seem as though a lot of things were not really thought through …..
Within the Clan Home Worlds battles were fought within a glorified arena – circle of equals – and the PGCs were used as the Tru-born’s clean up crew, post battle, hence there was little to no reason for a dedicated support vehicle crew.
However within the Inner Sphere if you try to fight in the same way you did in the Clan Home Worlds the clans ‘Mechs should run out of ammunition given the duration many of the Inner Spheres battles can last especially if they have to fight through multiple waves of vehicles and infantry – be rained on by artillery and bombers – and if the IS ‘Mechs decide to give ground and choose a new battle location. And then there is the issue of casualties on battlefield – in the absence of any dedicated MASH unit how do the Clans look after their wounded if they (The Clan’s ‘Mechs) are who knows how far away from their Dropship Support?
This just does not make any sense whatsoever – even into the far future of the Clans this has yet to be properly explained!
The Clans ideas regarding racial superiority are a major hindrance to their front line forces and create issues with their strategic ability / access to different units that would have assist their invasion!
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The only reason why soldiers of the WWI and WWII era were in combat so long, was they had no real reserves to rotate the fatiguing front line for some rest.
Units were rotated on and off the front lines as required, it is not as if units were permanently on the front lines.
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Just make sure you remove it from before your storyline starts. Otherwise, that logic fails from the start.
Conventional ordinance can be just as devastating as a nuclear weapon especially if your conventional military forces are in vast numbers. Consider Japan / Germany – fire storms caused by regular ordinance Vs those killed by nuclear – in some cased the fire storms appeared to cause more deaths and devastation than the nukes.
To me there needs to be line in the sand that the game will not cross – WMDs, Torture and what Caleb did should be removed from the game – they have no place in it. As this is fictional why not have an unofficial rule that these will never be included in the game for the sake of the aesthetics of the game?
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The DC uses chemical weapons on one world to killed the defenders. So WMDs were not perfectly left out of the 4th war.
Was this even really necessary?
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It is a bit sad that saying nukes need to stay out of the game, yet it is the ONLY VIABLE way to counter clan warships.
And yet what are IS warships – and naval battles for?
As for sensors and clocking systems - when were any real examples of these placed within the game when many of the ‘Mechs sensors have such a pitiful hex range?
These are just more examples of where technology needs to be reconsidered with new rules as a means of making the game a little more believable (and hopefully fun).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/18/20 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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I want to say part of the reason for the clans lack of concern for 'cleaning up' after a fight comes from not having to salvage items to keep their units working. And the fact that they don't worry about the next fight, as there isn't anything really close to a campaign fight. Granted, there may be a large number of vehicles that all clans use, it is just they were not showcased to have. Some sort of jeep or other small transport had to be used, as they could not use their mechs to travel around all the time.
During Ulric's trip after a battle he was walking thru the debris with Phelan and a few others, including elementals outside of their armor. From the looks of it, removing and getting back into the elemental armor is not easy or quick. So just popping out to do a simple walk would mean they took it off at a secured location and headed out. Transport would be required.
They would have to have vehicles near fight sites. The story of Nicolas's death said the medical rush onto the field to try and save him. Something you can not do without proper equipment. And a medtech isn't known for having the stamina of an elemental. So the fight had to cover quite a bit of area.
Actually, the use of WMDs can be a motivator for players to hate the users. Not using them is one of the 'hero' aspects that players have.
But tell me this. What sort of motivation do you have at times? Disarm a normal bomb, or a nuke? Which is more dramatic?
Same with Chemical and even biological items. Even the nuclear reactor going critical, and your team has to prevent it. Without nukes, nuclear reactors would have to be pulled from the game. As suggested with the HPG, if it can be used as a weapon, it will be.
And for history, how do you deal with the end of WWII in the game? No nukes means no drops on Japan. That also means that fusion power isn't likely to have come about. As stated with the end of the SL, and the beginning of the 1st war. They would be so far different that there is nothing that would be close to canon.
The cloaks were meant as sarcasm, as only specific missions seem to even come close to being able to hide from the clans. Yet those same mechs, when captured, didn't have the same abilities. The clans could still hide from them. But it was said to show that the writers didn't follow their own rules.
And a swipe at the clan 'honor' of the challenge. Some didn't issue it, and those that did, tended to do so, just before the attack. So basically, you forces were ready, but you didn't sneak attack. You basically jumped up and said surprise before firing, not just firing then letting that result tell them that you were there.
The game basically says you take quite a bit of time to move troops to a battle field. Even a meer 50 miles from you. At a medium 60 KPH, it takes about around an hour. More then enough time for an enemy to destroy a target. But to attack an HQ with most of it's forces around a world, means even longer times, even with airlifts. And this was well known to the clans. Part of their strategy was to do this. So where is their even fight? Even bidding, means you still have closer to one on one then what is suggested.
And star on lance? 5 to 4?
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Requiem
05/18/20 11:17 PM
1.158.188.5
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Yes I do agree the Clans must have a vehicles.
The issue is the Canon Clan Invasion never included them, hence ….
Any salvage / field repair becomes a major issue;
Though this is not the main point, this relates to the battlefield medical facilities – the Clans have a complete absence of battlefield medical vehicles and personnel – whereas the IS have a massive assortment of vehicles, and personnel, assigned for this exact purpose – thus if they (the clans) are unable to evac. Their people in a timely manner their chances of surviving a battlefield injury are reduced to next to nil.
This therefore has a massive compounding issues – if they (the Clans) have a higher mortality ratio due to battlefield injury this therefore requires of the Clans a greater number of replacement personnel – however given the Clans have a Sibko system this therefore requires of the clans to carry a greater loss of personnel for a longer time period (in comparison the IS) due to this system. Thus over time the Clans cannot replace numbers, thus their units must decrease in size / be absorbed into other units to maintain cluster formations – That is over time the number of Clan units (Clusters) must shrink in numbers due to a high mortality rate (no MASH units) and a decreased replacement rate (sibko) faster than anyone ever considered before – especially when it relates to Elementals in the field – as in the absence of vehicles they must be carried out by another elemental or on the back of a ‘Mech – and given the Clans predilection to being a Warrior Mongol Society how often would you ever see this during a battle? Ans: Never!
Thus the Canon Story now has one huge pot hole in it that cannot be explained!
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So just popping out to do a simple walk would mean they took it off at a secured location and headed out. Transport would be required.
No evidence of this – and would any engineer be allowed to create armor that was not simple to ingress and egress from considering the clans engineering? What if it is as simple as the helmet lifts back and the chest armor drops forward – maintaining the armor in one piece and it is as simple as just lifting yourself out of and into the armor.
So it only takes a minute or two to get into and out of the armor at best?
Thus no vehicle necessary.
Plus consider the Clans Dropships – how many have vehicle slots in them and were included in the Invasion?
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They would have to have vehicles near fight sites. The story of Nicolas's death said the medical rush onto the field to try and save him.
Nicholas died in a circle of equals – a clan equivalent of an arena – it would set up like a Nascar event with the warriors fighting within and having a dedicated medical team close by. But in the IS where an entire planet becomes a circle of equals there is no medical team close by except for those within their Dropships as they never assigned MASH units to the Invasion!
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the use of WMDs can be a motivator for players to hate the users.
Sorry but I will not allow them in my game under any reason – if others want them in their game this is their choice.
Medical – yes I can accept this but this is as far as I am going to take it as it is not even required for energy purposes throughout the IS when you consider how a Mech engine works – you just need a larger one for energy production for a city and no waste products!
In the past they were used and yes we need to accept this but in the future cannot we say we have evolved past the use of such vial weapons?
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The game basically says you take quite a bit of time to move troops to a battle field. Even a meer 50 miles from you. At a medium 60 KPH, it takes about around an hour. More then enough time for an enemy to destroy a target. But to attack an HQ with most of it's forces around a world, means even longer times, even with airlifts. And this was well known to the clans. Part of their strategy was to do this. So where is their even fight? Even bidding, means you still have closer to one on one then what is suggested.
And star on lance? 5 to 4?
And yet when you factor in the Infantries sensors have a far more distant range the number of infantry personnel / cost of sensor sweets are low thus they should be in vast quantities (with regards to a regular RCT unit) this therefore demonstrates the Clans lack of stealth – with a capable commander she/he should be able to spot them far in advance and make a preparation for a counter attack quickly. Then when you factor in the number of vehicles / conventional aircraft / VTOL craft / specialist anti-mech and over time anti-elemental infantry the idea of an even fight swings wildly into the favor of the IS, especially if they can maintain a good piece of land for their defensive positions.
This is the problem sensors on both sides should be able to be detected far in advance of their units – it then just comes down to the man on the ground and her / his ability to relay information in a timely manner back to HQ so that they can act on that information.
Then there is the issue of spotter planes – they can remain at an altitude above the clans ground weapons and they can just circle around taking a video image to be sent back to HQ – that is until they are chased off by a Clan fighter or are destroyed by a fighter. Which again shows the Clans lack of tactical ability by not having them on the field.
But if the Clan has access to a warship in orbit they could just watch and relay information with impunity – thus the game becomes something like a chess match where everyone knows everyone else’s moves in a timely manner. Thus the duration of the battle now increases exponentially as it deviates from blitzkrieg to something else.
This is the problem – there needs to be a more information regarding sensor suites and counter sensor suites – and where all the information is coming from on both sides. As such the opening moves could take a very long period of time as if the Clans use Blitzkrieg too often the IS will be ready for it with a massive artillery and bomber runs over them rendering their units all but scrap metal.
This is why there needs to be many maps – One set for battle in space, one set for battle in atmosphere, one set showing the entire world and how and where you troupe are moving around the world and another set for when combat is finally joined.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/20 02:24 AM
66.74.60.165
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First off, the only salvage a clanner would take is clan equipment, and even that might just be destroyed. It has a 'taint' of a failed warrior.
No matter when the books say, the clans are not immune to wastefulness. They lose mechs on occasion and very rarely have I heard of a warrior waiting for a replacement. Without issuing a trial of possession for someone elses.
And as said before. There is an explanation on why things are done, though they aren't ones that some take as good. The story needed the clans to have weaknesses, so the developers decided this is one of them.
One of the pictures showing a new elemental being fitted for their armor was something similar to the old full plate mail. I am thinking you are saying they should be like the power armor in fall out 4. Just a little more sophisticated then turning a valve. It may be the picture was not a real representation of the armor. Wouldn't be the first time.
So the complaints about the lack of realism for the game developers, saying they don't stick to reality, was just whining, if you try to remove nukes and such from the game. There is no reality without having the threat. And that is the key as said before. The threat. Might as well remove assassination and things like patricide and such. Maybe even going as far as just having slap fights to solve who wins. The perfect story already falls apart. For your game, that's fine. Just stop with the bagging on the developers for not having PHD's In crapocide to fill in all the little tidbits, which seems only a very few even noticed.
I know why the game doesn't have sensors set up. There would be NO ambushes possible or sneak invasions if they actually worked right. The game would absolutely need spacecraft to fight their way on, and in retreat, off the planet. Raids would not be something that would happen that wasn't RCT sized. So that removes it's big allure. Taking a lance on a raid, and being able to survive.
Though the 'new' things they come up with in the novels, does show just how little the game has covered things at times. A simple spotter plane is more then capable of locating the enemy, yet for some reason, defenders, and even attackers never had them before some of the books brought them out. I am not even talking the high tech things like drones, or the SDS, but a simple ultralight that is used to spot the enemy ground forces.
And the need for 3 maps, like suggested, is the very reason the game didn't go that route. It was meant for stompy mechs to fight stompy mechs. Not have to deal with all elements of going from jump point to grounding, then use your stompy mechs, then try to get away. This is far to much for more then a majority of people that play.
From what I know, Warhammer doesn't have you fight like this. You do space, or ground. Rarely both.
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Requiem
05/19/20 05:24 AM
1.158.188.5
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The story needed the clans to have weaknesses, so the developers decided this is one of them.
And yet not once was this “weakness” ever seen to be causing a problem for the Clans.
During the Invasion ….. No
Post Tukayyid…………..No
Post Wolf / Falcon War..No
Is there even one instance where this [sibko – replacement personnel] could be considered to affect the Clans within the Canon story line?
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So the complaints about the lack of realism for the game developers, saying they don't stick to reality, was just whining, if you try to remove nukes and such from the game.
They can be removed from the game and still keep the realism! – they can become an obsolete weapon system.
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the game doesn't have sensors
Then why have BAP and ECM etc. – why have radar – why have thermal goggles?
If this was the case then every time the Clans detected vibro-mines must be disregarded and they must walk in oblivious and blow up just like everyone else.
In all reality given the level of sensor sophistication within the Battletech universe when compared to what we have now the entire worlds movement of every vehicle should be able to be analyzed for its type of vehicle and tracked by both sides.
Thus both sides must have a massive amount of counter electronics get around this – but this will not help if there is a camera in a satellite or on nearly every street pole sending real time images to both traffic management / police (face recognition etc) / military all at the same time that are even now in effect in most of the first world.
Thus if you want raids etc. First, Kill off all satellites, Second, Use an EMP pulse in the upper atmosphere to turn an entire area dark for a period of time or kill of an area’s energy production / storage (battery) facility (just remember that the battery system will be shielded so that even if the power facility goes off energy will still be available – backup security measures are in place). Or something similar to this!
If current technology can track individuals from one camera to the next over a large area utilizing facial recognition why can’t it track infantry and military vehicles at the same time – and relaying it onto a map of the area in real time? So unless every camera is destroyed the defensive commander will have a very good idea as to what is going on in real time.
So if you want reality in the game here it is ….
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A simple spotter plane is more then capable of locating the enemy,
Boomerang Spotter AeroProp Turbine – Introduced 2888 – TRO 3025 and TRO 3039 – the Locust of the sky ….
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Maps - And the need for 3 maps, like suggested, is the very reason the game didn't go that route. It was meant for stompy mechs to fight stompy mechs. Not have to deal with all elements of going from jump point to grounding, then use your stompy mechs, then try to get away. This is far to much for more then a majority of people that play.
And this is the very reason why the game cannot be considered to be a strategic game.
If the only maps that are allowed are those used for battles then the game might as well say that everyone within the Battletech universe utilizes a circle of equals to fight in – it limits the game to a set area and a set number of units – it does in no way allow for any unit to conduct large scale strategic movement at any time, thus limiting the game to a fraction of what it is supposed to consider.
Forces fight their way from space to the ground and then on the ground - in the absence of multiple maps the game becomes little more than that of a chess match with all the set pieces in places prior to the first move.
For the game to become something more that this it will require multiple maps.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/20 01:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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The weakness of a true lack of reinforcements were seen. Just not acted upon. The scientists secret army saved the Falcons for the most part, while the Wolves pissed off every one they could, to make the competition to destroy them so intense, they would be able to survive the low bids for a long while.
Out of game, the developers had to do something in order to avoid removal of the clans, so they seemed to just fall back on the not wanting to put the nation thru another war so soon. Like it or not, most didn't really care, as they were having more chances to gain clantech and fight, or be, a clan unit.
Obsolete weapons system? Unused is the best you can get. Nukes will never be obsolete. But it is your alt. Just remember that this is where realism leaves the game.
The advanced probe and ecm were made for the close encounters. Specific for detecting things like mines and shut down units for the AP, but yet look at the range. The ecm is the same way. And those are extra weight and crits. Not even the sensors normally used.
But I can understand part of this. They didn't seem to think about this when the game started. Otherwise, stealth armor would have come out then, and EWS versions that help it work better would have to be out.
Also, if the sensors had the real range they should, physical combat should not happen unless out of ammo, or an ambush at touch range. Then the range of the weapons would come into the spotlight. When you can see a target 10 miles out, why can't I hit it? Missiles today, none cruise missiles, can hit targets much further out then 10 miles. A few are 150 miles, and that was something from 20 years ago.
Heavy? Definitely. Something a good military base should have? Absolutely.
The cannons on tanks today can hit at ranges that make the game's look like bb guns.
And another kicker. The game can see small asteroids and such that are the size of a mech within 250k miles, such as the moons orbit here on Terra. Yet, they can't find something the size of a warship in that distance?
Now computer tech being 'lost' should mean the gunners skill should be able to use 'iron sights'. It has been suggested it is done from time to time, but the shots from at least the AC's should have better range then they do.
Story line needs work, but getting the rules straight is more important, otherwise, it continues to keep needing to be reworked.
SDS is a major changer, and makes you wonder how the hell anyone got into a well defended system to attack it, like Terra should have been. Warship losses would have been horrible, and the dropships accompanying them? The only hope is to use as many ships as you can to run them out of ammo. And yet, they were supposed to be guided from a single point. ECM not work here?
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Requiem
05/19/20 05:35 PM
1.158.188.5
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The weakness of a true lack of reinforcements were seen.
Where / How? …. How can “a secret cabal of Clan Scientists who hold a deep hatred toward the warrior caste’s hegemony over Clan culture – and in particular the warriors’ dictates regarding the worl of the scientist themselves …..” (refer wiki – The Society) …. have any effect on the Clan Sibko system, circa 3030 (the generation prior to the invasion) to 3072 (when they came out of the shadows and attacked).
Sorry this is not an example of any Clan having an issue with replacement numbers during the Clan invasion. Thus as stated above the Clans were provided with a war in which their “weakness” was no weakness at all – it was completely ignored so that the Clans would be allowed into the IS with no issues whatsoever - in a war, that when analyzed, cannot be considered to be anything but a poorly written and completely unbelievable farce! Thus making everything that came after it an extension of this farce of a war.
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Out of game, the developers had to do something in order to avoid removal of the clans
And in so doing betrayed their own characters – Hanse Davion, Theodore Kurita etc. – the Houses they represent and the gameplayers by creating a history of the game that is completely eschewed to one side over another and that when analyzed proves the farcical nature of this timeline – a policy that has continued on into the future battles and peoples …..
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Like it or not, most didn't really care, as they were having more chances to gain clantech and fight, or be, a clan unit.
What is it that I want? A good story line that is fun to be in, that provides me [and hopefully other the game players] with many exiting areas to be in and that can be considered a believable history ….. and yet what were we given, a one dimensional game with a history that is completely farcical and unbelievable – that requires people like me to create their own universe because they find the canon version to be lacking in everything …..
Look at the additions I am postulating to enhance the Clan war ….
Creating small attack groups to fight the Clans in the Deep Periphery – against their support bases and their logistics fleets;
Fighting with the partisans in the Clans rear;
Becoming a renegade PGC unit and fighting the Clans as a mercenary unit;
The Battle of Camelot Command – providing the IS with naval units thus more naval battles – thus removing the black hole that is the response to Turtle Bay;
Becoming a treasure hunter – going into the lost worlds of the former Terran Hegemony to find lostetch – information that can be used by the Psy-Ops teams to show the Clans (warriors and civilians) how far they have fallen from their noble SLDF origins;
Attempting to expand the role of the infantry within the game to something more believable;
Attempting to bring scanners into the game – where they should have been from the start;
Attempting to bring a sense of strategy to the game by implementing more maps to the game – an enlarged Battleforce game;
Larger more involved battles with the majority of the Houses units – battles that do not just involve Mechs that involve all units;
Larger and more involved battles with individual worlds Home Guard units;
A more believable war in re to Logistics and replacement personnel;
Thus removing the farce (phony war) that is “the year of peace” and the stupidity that is Tukayyid.
Also ensuring the game and the characters within the game are acting in accordance with their back-stories ….
And yet they should have been able to just buy it in the form of refit packages from IS manufacturers and the Clans should have been kicked out of the IS – so that the war should have moved to the Deep Periphery if any true semblance of the war should have been observed – rather than that of the farce that was provided.
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Just remember that this is where realism leaves the game.
In my opinion, no, humanity has finally evolved to a point where we no longer need them – Reagan, Yeltsin and Gorbachev came very close ….
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BAP and ECM Ranges
Close encounters – at this range line of sight has a greater range ….
Even with sensors mechs should be able to make it all the way in to an extremely close – there should be ways of keeping them hidden from all sensors to enable an ambush to occur – or given the terrain.
And yes the entire computer system’s ability / weapons systems in the game needs a massive over haul and yes this will also require a massive overall of the existing rules of the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/20 10:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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Did you read the first paragraph where I said the lack of reinforcements were seen with the next small sentence saying it wasn't acted on? Or was that an entirely different thread? Seems like that has been happening a lot.
How did they betray their own characters? By not having them rush out and kill chunks of their military trying to remove the clans before they knew enough to be effective? In the alt, they have resources popping out their back sides. In canon, they did not have thousands of Vengeances, with millions of fighters to fill them. Nor did they have the ability to move forces from a lot of worlds to send to the clan front. The fact they removed so many units between 3039 war, and the clan invasion wasn't something liked, but needed to be done to allow the story line of the clans to evolve. Otherwise, what was next? Another round of the FC fighting the DC/FWL/CC in canon? Or allowing the FC to finally win?
Both were getting boring. The Jihad was the worse story arc to come about, with the RoTS being the 2nd from what I have seen of it. So what?
No clans meant no Katherine rising to power. So make sure you think on that before pushing this as well.
What you want, and what most of the rest of the players wants shows the developers followed what the thousands of people wanted, and ignored the few that didn't like it. The story isn't the reason why the game has been doing so badly recently. It was the lack of advertising and such. The story isn't completely ignored, but it wasn't the reason most that I know of started and kept playing. I would like to hear someone other then you, say they don't play the game at ALL because of the story. Most don't play the story past a certain point. I would love to have things actually make logical sense, but don't expect it, as the developers are not going to be spending the time to try and do that. New content needs to be out, so they can make money. New wars, new developments, new units. If it is just two worlds or the entire galaxy, this is the basis of the game. Fighting between two sides. Solaris can only be done so much. Death matches get old after a few dozen times for some. Not sure about most, as it seems it is the main way to test their custom units.
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ghostrider
05/19/20 10:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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What you are suggesting isn't the issue, so much as saying the game bites, and only your vision is correct.
You keep saying you don't understand, but that seems more like you don't want to even consider things beyond your vision. That is fine for you.
Saying logic needs to prevail, yet ignoring it to bring out your vision is doing the same thing you accuse the developers of, with one major difference. They own the game, even though you think buying the books means you own it. As said before, if you did own it, then it would have been done your way in print.
I do have to ask these questions, and it may get me banned for a while, but do you really think the U.S. and Russia banning nukes would delete then from history?
Some countries have nukes NO one wants them to have. Nukes have always been used to try and neutralize the lack of numbers against other entities.
With the treaties of reducing nuclear weapons would never end in the complete destruction of all of them. Those people making money off them would not allow it. And leaders listen to them, since they tend to control making other weapons, which all nations will never be rid of. It is a very vicious reality of life.
The sensors, outside of specific circumstances, should see a mech unit coming in from across 30 miles of open ground. Yet they don't. A fleet of dropships should be seen by detection units especially when the detection grid has constant contact with each other, so the ships would have to break laser coms to get by them. The entire thing about the jumpship emergence was only added in after the clan invasion happened. Yet this should really show up on planetary sensors, as all of them would have some sensors scanning the skies on any world that has importance to the house lords. Some pirate points are an issue, as they are a few days away, but they would still know something came in. Pirates themselves, should never make planetfall on worlds like the capitals, yet do.
But it has to be this way in order to allow the chance to raid someone. As said before, I don't like it, but accept it as something that has to happen if you want a game to play.
I suggest you play Aerotech/Battlespace or what ever the newest books are and stick with that. The land battles shouldn't exist, and since logic is the only way forward, this would be keeping with that.
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Requiem
05/19/20 11:07 PM
1.158.188.5
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They own the game, even though you think buying the books means you own it. As said before, if you did own it, then it would have been done your way in print.
Marketing – Target Market and understanding your client base.
If the product is substandard the volume of sales decreases, new clients also decrease, profit margin decreases, the ability to create new products decreases
If the marketing team cannot create a simple focus group to understand their base clients the product and the corporation will cease to exist.
As is there needs to be radical shift in marketing and the core product’s likeability otherwise …… how many products from Jihad onwards were available and are considered interesting?
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do you really think the U.S. and Russia banning nukes would delete then from history?
No, there will always be someone who will want them.
However as this is a game and it is set 1000 years into the future cannot I make a supposition that they have finally been removed from all arsenals? …. They turn the game on its head and have no real purpose other than to make people hate the game, so get rid of them.
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sensors
The issue with planetary sensors comes back to their socio-industrial rating
A – high amount of sensors; B onwards the amount and sophistication of sensors decreases to none at all when you get to periphery worlds etc. …..
BattleMech, Aerospace fighter etc. – there must be a minimum amount of sensors – they are discussed within many areas and many books and yet when it comes to the game they just evaporate – either they are in or out – and if they are out come up with a valid reason as to why the IS and the Clans cannot use them?
Then we have infantry sensors that have a vast range – how can this be?
There needs to a universal standard of sensors and how they work and how they can be jammed and what that jamming means to the defenders.
As is there are no sensors whatsoever …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/20/20 04:21 AM
1.158.188.5
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How did they betray their own characters?
What are the arch types when you consider Hanse Davion, Theodore Kurita and Takashi Kurita at the bare minimum they are all professional warlords who have a high understanding of military strategy …
Then have a look at the statistics offered by the Canon history …
Consider how many worlds were defended by just militia and mercenary forces
Consider want was done due to Turtle Bay Orbital Bombardment - NOTHING
Consider the % of each houses regular military was assigned to the Clan Invasion – Kurita 28%; Steiner-Davion 7.5%
Consider what was done in the year of peace to prepare for the 5th wave – NOTHING
Time to realize that this does in no way represent that of a military genius – what we are provided with is a complete sham of an invasion and by extension the leaders who are supposed to be orchestrating the Defense of the Realm.
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In canon, they did have …
As per the 20 year update
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
The DC had an unknown number of Vengeance carries as well as an unknown number of Achilles Class Dropships – they did have the capability of producing a massive number of naval lasers
The DC and the FC have a massive number of nuclear weapons
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Nor did they have the ability to move forces from a lot of worlds to send to the clan front.
Then consider the size of the forces used in the 4th SW – and the number of jumpships that were available then – and since then how many new Jumpships have been produced?
Then consider the economy of the IS and well as the population of that of the Clans
Then consider the IS academy system Vs the Clans Sibko system
Then consider the fact that it is given that over time the Inner Sphere IS ABLE TO REVERSE ENG. CLAN TECH!
When all this is combined it is quite clear that the Clans are nothing more than just a minor nuisance – at 4 or even 6 Clans given the number and type of forces they have assigned ….
They do not have any effective Garrison troops
They do not have any real logistics system – As the Clan Home Worlds are 6 months distant
They do not even have a dedicated MASH system!
This entire story is now a joke!
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Otherwise, what was next? Another round of the FC fighting the DC/FWL/CC in canon? Or allowing the FC to finally win?
My Alt has proven that the story could have been far better than given – if just given a little more thought!
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No clans meant no Katherine rising to power.
I would not make that bet – if she is determined she would take the throne one way or another.
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The story isn't the reason why the game has been doing so badly recently. It was the lack of advertising and such.
If I was to make a guess – cash flow is the issue.
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New content needs to be out,
And the many suggested new scenarios I have come up with that could be placed any were in time? E.g. my archeology units?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/20/20 11:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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In the history of the IS, how many worlds were garrisoned only with Militia? How many had hired mercs guarding them? This isn't new. It was happening long before the clans got into the picture.
A lot of time it happens due to one of the leaders getting ready for an offensive against their neighbors. Gathering forces is the term for it.
Now as this is complaining about canon, the alt can't be used to argue it... The CC was still dangerous, as well as the FWL. It was possible, even likely, that the FC was readying for another strike at the CC, or even the FWL. Given the fact that the FC lost so many troops in 3039, they moved things around to better cover their territory.
What was done to Kali with the gas attacks? Nothing really.
What was done to Gibson (I believe) when their rebels started using Davey Crocketts against WOB? What ever happened to the entire time where the IS nuked worlds to death?
Katherine was not really punished at all for trying to usurp the FC causing so many deaths.
Where are the retaliations to all the chemical weapons used in the history of the game? Assassinations?
Very close to nothing.
In the end, the bombardment of Turtle Bay got the Jaguars dead. It was a major factor in which clan to take out. Oh yeah. Not instantaneous so not considered.
And again. The year of peace DID have things being done. The IS was fortifying their worlds near the front. Now just because you want economics in the game, yet seem to fail to understand what a budget is, isn't the developers faulty.
Still haven't seen a single write up on Defiance, a single company, much less the entire IS. So that basically says you have no real idea on just how much, or how little each house has for what, such as taxes and what it is spent on.
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Requiem
05/20/20 03:18 PM
1.158.188.5
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In the history of the IS, how many worlds were garrisoned only with Militia? How many had hired mercs guarding them? This isn't new. It was happening long before the clans got into the picture.
And yet how many worlds per the Clan Invasion were garrisoned with just militia and mercenaries? Over half of all of the worlds captured ….
Look at Wave 5, after the year of peace. Clan Wolf alone was given over 30 worlds - This makes no sense whatsoever!
Hanse Davion – the author of Operation Galahad and Operation Gotterdammerung and Operation Rat – and yet no defense whatsoever for the Clan Invasion?
Then consider the FC utilizing such a minimal amount of its overall forces to engage the Clans – 7.5%?
Consider the 4th SW – August – December 3028 – The Lyran Commonwealth attacks 70 worlds on their own Then when you factor in Operation Rat and those of the DC March border?
What the ……., this is just ludicrous.
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The CC was still dangerous
Er, no they were not …the CC were down to 26-30 Regiments and a good percentage of those were Mercenary of questionable loyalty. The idea that the FC would attack the DC and not the CC in the war of 3039 has also been proven that the entire premise cannot be considered a rational decision – it is just TPTB saving the CC when in all reality it should have fallen!
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Given the fact that the FC lost so many troops in 3039, they moved things around to better cover their territory.
The FC have a 9 to 1 ratio when it comes to the CC – they could have easily moved 50% of their forces (140 Regiments) against the Clans and still have enough forces to hold their borders.
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What was done to Kali with the gas attacks? Nothing really.
Black May was in 3062 – she was tried and convicted in a Star League Court and was exiled to Highspire.
So what has this to do with the Clan Invasion 3050 ….?
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Gibson
The planet in the FWL?
So what has this to do with the Clan Invasion 3050 ….?
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What ever happened to the entire time where the IS nuked worlds to death?
Where and by who did this occur circa 3050? …. Or is this now abut the Jihad era?
So what has this to do with the Clan Invasion 3050 ….?
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Katherine was not really punished at all for trying to usurp the FC causing so many deaths.
The Lyran people and the Lyran Military allowed this – thus it is LEGAL
Second what deaths? No one can prove she killed anyone, not even Victor.
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Where are the retaliations to all the chemical weapons used in the history of the game?
4th SW or Jihad era? So what has this to do with the Clan Invasion 3050 ….?
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Assassinations?
Show me a time line in the Battletech Universe when assassination was not seen as a means of effecting political change?
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In the end, the bombardment of Turtle Bay got the Jaguars dead. It was a major factor in which clan to take out. Oh yeah. Not instantaneous so not considered.
Correct – samurai dictums would require an immediate response. Takashi Kurita would demand nothing less.
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And again. The year of peace DID have things being done. The IS was fortifying their worlds near the front.
And yet the entire wave 5 cannon history would say otherwise, especially when it comes to the Wolves!
Where is even one world that has multiple RCTs on it within the advance of the Clan Invasion?
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Now just because you want economics in the game, yet seem to fail to understand what a budget is, isn't the developers faulty.
Please elaborate further …..
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Still haven't seen a single write up on Defiance, a single company, much less the entire IS. So that basically says you have no real idea on just how much, or how little each house has for what, such as taxes and what it is spent on.
Still have yet to receive your idea of how to stop the Clans other than that of the Canon history ….
As for Defiance - why? when no matter how I determine the figures, no matter how I believe the accuracy of the figures are they will never be accepted by any other gamer as the underlying assumptions I have considered will never be accepted by any other gamer - they will be just be ridiculed. Plus they need to be determined at a specific time period and not an open ended statement of determine this……
For example – how many employee levels are there – how many people within each level – what is the remuneration level for each level – what is the superannuation considerations - what are the sick leave, long service leave, annual leave considerations – do I use American, German, Australian accounting standards and norms to determine these figures …. There can never be a standardization of thought when it comes to making a determination ….. so why bother providing this information?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
05/20/20 08:36 PM
71.47.151.234
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The idea that the FC would attack the DC and not the CC in the war of 3039 has also been proven that the entire premise cannot be considered a rational decision – it is just TPTB saving the CC when in all reality it should have fallen!
It was showing that the universe is more than a war game run by real world players. Canonically, the Fourth Succession War generated powerful objections in the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth as being a naked land grab and over-stretching the Federated Sun's merchant stellaris. The attempt to end the Capellan Confederation in the mid-3030s showed the Lyrans and St. Ives Compact were not interested in simple conquest.
The Succession Wars, for all the high words about finding a new First Lord, had actually seen the Free Worlds League, Lyran Commonwealth, and Federated Suns abandon any pretense of actually trying to be First Lord in the early 2900s. Max Liao and Takashi Kurita might've had other ideas in 3025 - Max was certainly delusional enough in the 3010s to think he had a shot of being First Lord - but the other Houses had stopped that game long ago.
Hence, Hanse's land grabs weren't universally well-received by his own people, let alone his in-laws who felt they were being used to stoke his ego.
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the CC were down to 26-30 Regiments
They were down to 26-30 front line BattleMech regiments. The Capellans still had lots of militia units, while the Lyrans and St. Ives Compact were opposed to a second land grab from the Capellans.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/20/20 09:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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Where does it say they had the ability to make massive numbers of naval lasers? Is this in the same book that said they needed radio actives to make fusion eninges, which was part of the Grey Death series?
Still refusing to believe that the destruction of the FS economy is how they managed to get enough ships to move the forces to hit the CC? So the destruction a second time to send forces to hit the clans was the only viable solution? And that isn't saying just how many ships were destroyed in the 3039 war. Where were all those jumpships from the 4th war at? They didn't have use for them at that time.
The numbers defense isn't going to cut it. X number of troops to destroy Y number of troops means Z numbers of troops will survive for the next fight. It just doesn't work out that way. I have to doubt you have ever played the board game, as any more then 3 battles will show that it is not so set on who wins. One simple die roll can end it. In war, one single soldier starts running from a difficult battle, and you could very well have a rout on your hands. Even though you have more soldiers with you then the other side has.
The alt has NOT proven it is a better story line. It has given some new ideas to things, but as written, still have the same logic holes as the old story line. The only thing you really did was time travel back with information on what was coming and changed it to counter that. There is no real reason for the IS to have done anything other then what they did. But that is the issue of players reading the GMs or the adventure pack. And I think the canon story does have a lot of things off. The simple lack of any casualties from vehicles seems to be missing, as well as not accounted for in battles. As said, the invisibility the clans have when nothing works when the IS gets ahold of it. Unless Comstar can hack into every sensor network that is watching for jump signitures. And I do understand, they are not going to be that numerous.
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ghostrider
05/20/20 09:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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Katherine didn't have the push to remove Victor without the clans. She used his fight against them to get a foothold, then destroyed her siblings confidence. Had Victor not be out of contact, that would not have happened. The best she could do, would be a grass roots revolt, but that runs counter to her facade. Killing him, or really being able to frame him for their mother is the only thing she could have done.
New ideas only work if the situation supports it. There was no real way the FC could pump out 10 RCTs at the time of the 4th war if the books were correct in factories being hard pressed to just keep up with losses. Other then depleting other units to move them, but the new mechs would be an issue.
With this, suggesting the IS, or just the FC, pump out dozens of even just mech regiments isn't possible. Not without destroying their own armies as shown above.
Having the clans start picking up speed after people learned just how little the houses could do against them makes more sense then not. The panic that resisting them is futile and will only get you killed. There is no way to stop them sentiment starts to form. And with Comstar helping them redirect things like suggesting they are on the FWL border for an example, instead of forming an arrowhead force to take down Tharkad didn't help. The black boxes for canon isn't the rescue you wanted, as they didn't have that many working. So arguing otherwise is pointless.
Also something you are missing is the fact that the entire 4th war was pretty well planned out, so they pretty much knew what, when, and where things were going on. With the clans, they weren't sure if they would find them on world, in space, or get a message saying the worlds they left to hit the clans were now being invaded. But you have all that information and rewriting history to counter that.
The CC was still dangerous. They could very well invade or at least destroy units guarding worlds that would need to be replaced, or worse, putting the torch to those worlds. If you need food, you need to ship it in. Well if they destroy the food at the loading docks, then what? You only have so many ships to move stuff, and you said strip them all to send forces to the front.
But this ties into the Defiance thing. You claim your numbers are better, but so far, not a single thing was put up. You say if you did, then someone would ridicule them. So is that the reason why the developers never did so? Because people would say there is no way that could work, or that it would require more?
One company, and no numbers to even back it up. No budget on how much made or paid out. So why should we believe your numbers are correct when you don't know the developers numbers?
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ghostrider
05/20/20 09:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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Assassination being used to effect change in politics. Nukes can be said to do the same. Stepping on someone with a mech can be the same. Even a frontal attack can do the same. Assassinations are used by the weak to try and force others to do their bidding. Hide in the shadows because your not popular and strike. Your ideas may well be why no one wants you in charge.
A few rare times, the person who is the worse is in power, but normally it is the misguided that think they are the solution to all.
Again. If the DC reacted like you say they would have, the DC would have destroyed all their soldiers now, to repent against all defeats in the history of the DC. So they would not be around even during the original SL as they were conquers before then. I could assassinate the coordinator, broadcast it, and run for the periphery. In your view, every single unit would chase me there, trying to kill me. So the FS/LC would have been able to walk right in and take all the worlds while removing the supplies from those chasing me. And yet the DC Samaria honor didn't object to using poison and nukes to pacify a world.
Oh yeah. The DC was the first to invade another realm using nukes. Great honor there. Sneak attack to boot.
So the books saying the clans changed tactics as started going after softer worlds, then hit the main concentrations isn't sinking in. Or maybe comprehension of this is the issue. Or maybe this is just to argue. Canon says they skipped heavily defended worlds to hit the lighter guarded ones, then turn back to take out the surrounded worlds they passed.
Back to Defiance. How about starting when the SL left, and use your spreadsheets to bring it up to 3025. According to you, that should be easy.
This is just one company. Not 10's of thousands of worlds, moons, asteroids and such.
As said. Without any numbers, the argument that canon is wrong falls completely flat. There is nothing to compare it to. And by the way, Defiance isn't the only industry on Hespertus II. So that might explain why they didn't terraform or set up the world to be independent. They did not want to foot the bill for others to benefit from it.
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Requiem
05/21/20 01:18 AM
1.158.188.5
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Cray,
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The attempt to end the Capellan Confederation in the mid-3030s showed the Lyrans and St. Ives Compact were not interested in simple conquest.
Reference is made to my post within the forum RE: The Capellans’ Fall War.
Remember 1st Year Engineering Mathematics – Triple Derivative Rules as this proposition / theorem just does not work?
What we have is a function of (house lord’s military and political ability / mental stability) + function of the Houses’ (military + economy + Logistics + social will + ……) which equals becoming the First Lord of the Star League as the idea the dream is dead does not hold water when you are down to three Great Houses!
Hanse Davion – I have yet to read anything that would contradict my belief that Hanse would give up on the idea of becoming the First House Lord to kill off an entire revival House
Militarily – the forces required to kill of the CC are less than that of the forces used to attack the DC – more damage to your forces – more time it will take to rebuild – a higher cost.
Economically – The GDP of the CC is about 5 to 6 times that of the area the FC is projected to acquire from the DC.
After working within a bank for many years (The Lyrans) the risk / cost / benefit analysis indicates that the CC is far more valuable (that is their value is higher) – for less risk – the Profit expectation of taking the CC is far more than that of the DC
That state of the IS circa 3039 – yes the DC were gearing up for a war but if they were not attacked would they still try to assist the CC – in all reality they would just let the CC be killed off and redouble their production lines as they would know they are next!
Sorry to say but this is an indefensible statement.
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Hanse's land grabs weren't universally well-received by his own people, let alone his in-laws who felt they were being used to stoke his ego.
If Hanse attacked and killed off the CC – his approval ratings in the Capelan March would be at 100%
As for his in Laws they are bankers – the wealth generated by taking out the entire CC would be astronomical in comparison to that of taking out a part of the DC – Money Talks when it comes to the Lyran State, just provide land grants / reconstruction projects to the right people and the media and the right people will be on board with killing off the CC.
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The Capellans still had lots of militia units
And yet when have militia ever been a factor in this game? – there were never included in any of the wars up to date so why now bring this up?
Case in point the Falcons attacked Twycross – population 1,237,735,000 circa (3076) and a social- industrial level B – and I am expected to believe they were defeated by the Jade Falcon Guards – 60 Mechs, 150 elementals and no air support …. Really? A Lyran world – who’s parent house loves super heavy tanks and has who know how many conventional aircraft….
How many other worlds were attacked and their population and socio-industrial level are known so that if you make a rough calculation even at 3% of the population you can clearly see a world of this size would take a Galaxy or more to crack!
What about all the worlds who’s populations are over 7 billion that were somehow captured during the invasion?
Either they are all out or they are all in they cannot be both.
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Where does it say they had the ability to make massive numbers of naval lasers?
TRO 3057 Dropships, Jumpships and Warships – page 204 205 System Defense stations – DC – 20 can be made every 3 months …. That’s 80 a year for one plant alone in the DC – so switch over from static to PT Dropships – that’s 80 PT craft armed with naval lasers per year.
The destruction of the CC provides the FC with more forces and more jumpships
Thus when the Clans arrive a greater figure than 7.5% can be assigned to the Clan Invasion given the number of Jumpships / Units involved at any one time frame in the 4th SW QED
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The alt has NOT proven it is a better story line.
Really? There are far more aspects to my alt than there ever were with the Canon.
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Katherine
Victor is not an obstacle – all she needs to do is prove to the people of the FC he is unworthy and he will have no choice but step down.
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There was no real way the FC could pump out 10 RCTs at the time of the 4th war if the books were correct in factories being hard pressed to just keep up with losses.
True – but they could produce 2 a year easy even with loss through normal operations – so by 305o expect 20 new RCTs.
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Having the clans start picking up speed after people learned just how little the houses could do against them makes more sense then not. The panic that resisting them is futile and will only get you killed. There is no way to stop them sentiment starts to form. And with Comstar helping them redirect things like suggesting they are on the FWL border for an example, instead of forming an arrowhead force to take down Tharkad didn't help.
Sorry but I am a complete loss – panic sets in initially yes but panic can evaporate easily when you put 5 RCTs onto a single world! As for ComStar if they get caught …… well we all know what happens to quislings.
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The black boxes for canon isn't the rescue you wanted, as they didn't have that many working.
Again like many things in the Battletech universe there are no numbers to support this.
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The CC was still dangerous. They could very well invade or at least destroy units guarding worlds that would need to be replaced, or worse, putting the torch to those worlds.
And in so doing give Hanse all the justification he needs to invade and kill of the CC.
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So why should we believe your numbers are correct when you don't know the developers numbers?
Proven my point … even without putting them up they are being ridiculed! No …
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The DC was the first to invade another realm using nukes. Great honor there. Sneak attack to boot.
December 7th 1941 – Pearl Harbor.
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So the books saying the clans changed tactics as started going after softer worlds, then hit the main concentrations isn't sinking in.
Book and page no please.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/21/20 01:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Hitting an enemy that has been known to hurt your nation, the DC was the right target. The costs, if the invasion had succeeded, would have been far better, then to let the DC control fights, as they invaded your worlds. So figure that into your numbers calculations to figure out things.
The title of First Lord died a while back. Those living today don't covet it like you think. The only time I seen any idea of First lord come up before the 2nd SL, was when Hanse was thinking about what to do about the Luthien invasion.
Despite what you might think, Hanse could have hurt the CC before the 4th war if he really wanted to. Smaller sustained invasions comes to mind.
Not sure why the idea that not all people will be part of a partisan effort to remove an enemy, and not be quislings isn't sinking thru. Might want to go to the middle east countries that were 'liberated'. More then a few want to return to the old ways and some want to move into a more open society. That isn't all or nothing. The U.S. itself has the same things. Some don't want to get out of the middle ages where money allows you to do what you want. Most seem to want to get away from that sort of garbage.
Now add in your figures that for each CC world taken, it would need that many more units to control. Use your own figures when saying the clans couldn't control worlds, then apply it here. Having the entire CC would NOT have gained them that much in units, as you are forced into a concentrate weakness scenario. Most of the CC's people were for the chancellor, if not for the person on the throne. This would not change in a generation.
How long as Brittan been in charge of the U.K. yet still have issues with certain independence groups? How long have them been part of the U.K?
Also having so many units in the army is countered by how many worlds need to be guarded. Something that won't come to light when the only way of thinking is all forces sit in one spot, then fly out to where they are needed. That sort of thinking it why a lot of resources are not available like they should be. Mines being taken out is one such major thing. Don't have to hit the factories if you can bleed the enemy of the resources to build anything. Look at why the original SL was formed by the Hegemony. They were low on resources. So they had to do something.
The Battlestat says there are 5 built to date, with another 20 that can be built within the next three months. It does not say they can build 20 every three months. Skimming material is where the information is being confused with facts given in the game. They actual statement says that since they started building the NLs, they have 25 in storage.
Aspects don't always mean better. As said, there are more then a few things that should have happened. Other things are just backwards and has some holes still in them. I could come up with thousands of things to 'improve' the game. But I know most of them would do no such thing.
If the IS wanted more worlds, they would have push out into the periphery. Costs prevented that somewhat, as well as a lack of some resources. But to build a new world is much easier then to rebuild one that has generations of traditions ruling it. Also, trying to fix a lot of the garbage left, is even more of a problem. How many of the factories or even just homes, have alternate enterences that you don't know about, or bombs hidden to take out workers as well as the building itself? If canon wasn't so badly off, then some of the ideas would work. Wolfpacks are not easy to even start, much less run multiples in the size needed to do much. Destroying your realm in order to have the jumpships to do so isn't a smart thing. And costs come into effect, which seems to be overlooked in all the ideas of doing this.
Again, complaining about canon then saying the alt changes that fact, doesn't work. Alt is not canon. Canon is not alt. Some how saying that 5 rcts being dropped on a world is why the clans acceleration in canon isn't possible is completely wrong. The canon verse did NOT have multiple RCTs they could put together to form invasion forces. 160 something regiments in the FC at the time of the invasion. Remember you harping on that saying they were nerfed. And no. They could not remove forces from worlds in bulk. That would cause riots and opportunities for pirates, as well as other realms. It is not as simple as demanding the enemy stop raiding you. There are more then a few times the raids were by nobles hitting other nobles, using pirates as a cover.
So you will not stop thinking in absolute terms. Then Victor should have killed his sister the moment she started showing that she wanted it all, and would do everything to achieve it. It would also mean the FC would definitely hit Terra to punish Comstar for their making sure the CC survived. The whole fact that even the FS population, including those in the Capellan March were against the invasion as it was. The Draconis March may well have revolted, as it meant money and supplies going into the old CC territories, which meant coming from places such as theirs. The FS/FC is not a dictatorship. It is Feudal, and that goes down further then just Prince/duke. Big companies can very much tell you to stuff it, and get away with it. Any sort of punishment would be seen by the rest as a means of trying to take over them all, and create a large issue. Once you get away with it with one company, who is to say you won't do it to theirs? There are laws to prevent this.
So you have no proof that your numbers support the ripping on the developers for not making a full economic encyclopedia for every world since the formation of the SL. Arguing that your number are better the canon, but yet you don't have any. Sound ironic?
Attacking the developers saying they should have done this or that without actually knowing what they have, which is implied greatly throughout the books, sounds more like just bagging on them for no reason other then being bored. There are more then a few flaws in the game. Forgotten or wanted forgotten things that should have been main stream, but weren't. Not keeping an eye on the writers, so they wouldn't come up with things that weren't possible in the game. The HBS game has the Argo becoming canon. Yet the developers did all they could to keep out a dropship that could dock with a jumpship and have another docked to it. And they mention the SDS system on one of the worlds, which has the program for running such a thing. This includes drones that attack you as you try to enter the base. ROBOT vehicles that strike. No human crewed ones, but pure robotics. Something the game has said isn't possible.
Where Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack, it was not meant to be done that way. Time zones and the ambassador were at fault for the declaration of war not being given before the attack. And there weren't any nukes at Pearl Harbor. Just normal ordinance. So not glowing aftermath here. But that in itself tells you that the Samurai honor had changed before 1950. So why do you believe they would follow the code made up in 1500 would still be absolute in 3000?
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Requiem
05/21/20 07:08 PM
1.158.188.5
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Quote:
Hitting an enemy that has been known to hurt your nation, the DC was the right target.
By this logic … then the FWL and the CC are also, “the right target”.
As for Costs – hitting the DC are far more expensive (almost twice that of the CC)– and as for the Net rewards, at the end of the day - the CC come out ahead of the DC by multiple times. And in so doing provides the FC with far more ….
There is no justification for hitting the DC other than petty vengeance – however the removal of the CC provides the FC with resources and status to become the next First Lord …
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Smaller sustained invasions comes to mind.
Yes he could … but the longer this goes on the more the chance for interference from external parties – the FWL could have taken the CC (if they could ever get their act together – and at the same time increase the size of their military) – or ComStar could have interfered (again) – It would have taken all this time to repair the damage from the 4th SW and get the FC economy back on track – 3039 is probably the earliest time the new FC military is ready to go to war as one military.
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Not sure why the idea that not all people will be part of a partisan effort to remove an enemy, and not be quislings isn't sinking thru.
Becoming a quisling – please explain what benefit(s) becoming a Clansman provides over that of remaining with the current system?
Please explain the benefits of becoming a part of Totalitarian Government has where you will never be allowed into the higher ranks / government because of where you were born and how you were born – you will never be allowed any say in your life as you will be expected to obey every order with no matter what – any disobedience will be met with the harshest of reprisal – and remember their system gets rid of all monetary benefits – and puts you into a caste system that you and your children can never leave …. – and they remove children from their families at an early stage in their life ….. so please explain how this system is of any benefit ….
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Now add in your figures that for each CC world taken, it would need that many more units to control.
How many “extra” units were required for the top of the CC that was captured during the 4th SW?
As wouldn’t this determine how many “extra” units would be required for the lower half?
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Having the entire CC would NOT have gained them that much in units, as you are forced into a concentrate weakness scenario.
Initially – battlefield salvage – minimum of 2 -4 Regiments maybe even more ….
Over time many more once you can begin repair actions – plus consider all the production facilities such as the Raven and the Cataphract will now belong to the FC ….and in addition how many Jumpships does the CC have that now belong to the FC?
Question how does concentrated weakness come into this when the FC have over 270 Regiments – the DC have 99 and the FWL only have 66 (as per the 20 year book), as is it is nearly a two to one scenario?
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Most of the CC's people were for the chancellor, if not for the person on the throne. This would not change in a generation.
How did the people in the top half react when they were liberated?
Please go back and re-read the House Liao – the average person had no real appreciation of their Lord – fear kept them in line as well as meeting their quota ….
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How long as Brittan been in charge of the U.K. yet still have issues with certain independence groups? How long have them been part of the U.K?
Who are the separatist groups in the top half that were liberated by the FC? ….. the Peoples Liberation front of Judea …. Sorry the Popular Front …. Splitters!!!!!
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Look at why the original SL was formed by the Hegemony. They were low on resources. So they had to do something.
And yet look at the worlds that were once part of the Hegemony and are now part of the Great Houses – if these worlds were so barren of resources why is Hanse Fighting the DC for them in the war of 39 and why are the DC so eager to defend them? If they have no resources then they are worthless …. Wouldn’t it be better to reduce your size – thus you can protect your logistics lines and you can concentrate your forces to save what remains?
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It does not say they can build 20 every three months
Mine says they can create 20 every three months!
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I could come up with thousands of things to 'improve' the game.
Then please begin ……
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Costs prevented that somewhat, as well as a lack of some resources.
And yet exploratory groups are still exploring beyond the periphery ….
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Wolfpacks are not easy to even start, much less run multiples in the size needed to do much.
Disagree … it is just a question of reorganization of existing forces ….
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Destroying your realm in order to have the jumpships to do so isn't a smart thing.
Wh ever said I was doing this? – with just 75% of the number used in the 4th SW you could damage the Clans beyond repair and have enough to keep the economy going …. However the real problem with regards to Jumpships is that there are no numbers whatsoever only a ‘perception of a number’ so that no one could ever agree ….
Plus the idea as to the number of naval yards that can manufacture / repair jumpships, as given, is a laughable joke when you consider the size of the fleets the Star League created and maintained …..
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complaining about canon then saying the alt changes that fact, doesn't work. Alt is not canon. Canon is not alt.
Correct …. This is why a rewrite is so necessary ….. to fight in such a system, as given, has no real appeal for me ….
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Then Victor should have killed his sister the moment she started showing that she wanted it all, and would do everything to achieve it.
Correct …. And yet victor has never shown that level of commitment or ruthlessness ….. this is why he needs to be put down …. Please read Machiavelli’s ‘The Price’ which is based upon the House of Borgia from 1455 onwards ….
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It would also mean the FC would definitely hit Terra to punish Comstar for their making sure the CC survived.
Canon ….. shadow war ….
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The whole fact that even the FS population, including those in the Capellan March were against the invasion as it was.
This is like saying the people of the Draconis March would revolt if their forces invaded the DC. Sorry, no this statement has no validity.
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The Draconis March may well have revolted, as it meant money and supplies going into the old CC territories, which meant coming from places such as theirs.
Only the most short sighted, uneducated would believe this one!
With the fall of the CC the entire FC economy would be in a Bull Market an upswing in the market and as such this will increase the size of the military, in a very short time, so that the next invasion would kill of the DC.
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Big companies can very much tell you to stuff it, and get away with it.
And yet isn’t this the reason why one of the FC largest Companies CEO was requested to join the infantry here he died for the glory of the FS?
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Pearl Harbor
Actually if you really know the facts – you would know there were multiple major blunders ….
First, US military intelligence were intercepting and decoding Consulate information traffic – it they had been intercepting an decoding Fleet Traffic it would have been a far different story and if they had had someone putting all the dots together rather than just filing everything away (and refering back to make links in the information) there would have been a different story; and
Second, Kimmel can in no way be blamed – what occurred in Washington that day (and prior to that day) that led up to a telegram being sent rather than a phone call is the true culprit – how could he have acted any differently if he was never provided access to the ‘Magic / Purple / JU 25’ decrypts? And the man in charge of ‘Magic’ why didn’t he phone call Hawaii like he was supposed to have done? – why did he send a Telegram and not mark it so that it was a priority message? And Why was this never discussed in the majority of the investigations into Pearl? – Refer to Harold Rainsford Stark and Richmond K. Turner.
McCarthur was provided access to all the decrypts and he was still caught flat footed - many hours after Pearl - and nothing happened to him .....
Says volumes as the judicial / media system ....
Also how can the Samurai Code of Honor be held to blame when the snafu was in Washington?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/22/20 12:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not everything is about the bottom line. The economic impact to the FC to finally put the DC on the defensive would pay back plenty, even more then the CC would. It would shut down a lot of raids and invasions. As stated before, the CC would actually cost the FC quite a bit. The man power needed, as the CC population is worse to control then the DC population, though this is not saying they would be easy. But then it seems only money numbers will prevail.
The main reason the FS economy was hurt so badly, was not the interdiction so much, but the fact so many ships were conscripted to do the war in the first place. It says that in the NAIS books. The interdiction only caused chaos among the ships that weren't conscripted.
Becoming part of the clans argument seems to stem from not really understanding things. Why didn't the people rise up against Katherine? Some of the benefits outweighed the loss of freedom. Why did some resist her? Some realized what she represented wasn't something they wanted.
Each person has their own reasons for not being part of a revolt.
For those on clan worlds, that include, but not limited to: fear of (dying, family punishment, torture, and being completely enslaved), promise of increased personal power, getting rid of things like certain crimes, their own government. There are a lot more, but not wanting to be killed is a big one. Revolts start when a large mass is angry at once. As most of the people took the clans as just another house invader, most didn't do much. But all or nothing seems to be the only thing understood. Life isn't that easy.
Note. Not fighting an invader is not being a quisling. Actively helping them violate your laws is.
Now you are starting to think. How many troops would be needed to pacify the entire CC? More then were trained to deal with it. The issues between the FS troops and the CC population was so bad, Melissa stepped in and removed those units for Lyran ones. And what do you know. The people calmed down. The DC was the big baddie on the block, and represented the biggest threat. Once the CC fell, the DC would have to hit the FC with everything it had, otherwise they would be destroyed. This is a case of your scenario of a lack of warships requires nukes. And they would use them. The CC pop might just buy some to use on the occupation forces or resort to things like poisons, though the CC was already bombing FC troops.
Forcing the DC to submit to the FC would have gave the FC that one step closer to the First Lord position (if they actually wanted it).
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ghostrider
05/22/20 12:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Concentrated weakness comes to mind as you are spreading over a larger area, and there is no guarantee that the factories you take will remain operational. Also, once the CC government falls, it would release the radicals to start a whole campaign to use anything they can get, in order to strike back. The people of the CC are more likely to resist the FS, then the people facing the clans. So this is similar to the invasion in this aspect. The numbers of troops is opposite.
So you are finally saying the canon said the people were happy, and want to put that forth, yet don't want to believe a lot of other things canon says, because it goes against your vision?
There were a lot that were happy to have some of the leaders removed. But they were still not happy with being part of the FS. But it did bring out an issue that wasn't addressed in the future. Those that were happy to be out from the Liao political scheming, didn't rise up and counter the mess caused when Liao started coming back. And more then a few resisted out of loyalty to the government, not the leaders in position. They would have been treated like second rate citizens under the FS as well.
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ghostrider
05/22/20 12:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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Why would you fight for things that might be devastated? Really? In order to remove an threat from an enemy, you have to destroy their troops, but also deny them a place to strike from and hide to recuperate. The worlds weren't worthless, but going by the SL issues of a lack of resources, they should have been worse in resources then they were. Another ooops moment that someone forgot to read their own background. Or maybe the fact the SL information came out AFTER the original books were done. So another retcon that didn't do their own research.
Reorganizing forces to start wolf packs? As this is canon that is being discussed, the numbers you have, but haven't bothered to show us don't exist here. The IS didn't have enough ships to move things around as they really needed, so did what they could with what they had. Now reorganizing what they had, would mean leaving some worlds to fend for themselves, as the few ships they were getting supplies from, would be gone. Refer to the FS economy from the 4th war. Some of the failed defenses and invasions came from a lack of ships to move the forces. And as stated before. Space is huge inside a star system. You have the two main jump points that would have most of the civilian traffic coming in, but will that stop the enemy? Doubtful, as you would need to do that in all systems near the border. Now trying to stop the flow of supplies. What system do you go into and when? It is doubtful you will be able to just sit in each system with a force large enough to hit everything. The entire history of why raids happen is mainly this, but only planet side.
75% of the jumpships used in the 4th war. Why would you think the sneak attack on the CC would have happened if the military had access to that many ships? Most of the people support the games implying that ships are not numerous. Only one persons has stated that is not what is going on. If they had that many jumpships, then why worry about wolfpacks, and use them to actually invade and keep worlds, changing the borders for good? This is where your little numbers might actually have some traction.
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ghostrider
05/22/20 01:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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The first prototype entered service in 3056, and by 3057 five had been deployed in orbit. BBP Industries informed the Draconis Combine Admiralty that they could produce twenty more in "the next three months"[2] ,
This is from the wiki. It does not say 20/3 months consistently.
The fixing needs to start from continuity and keeping in line with their own rules. It's fine you don't agree with the story and such, but saying it needs to change when a majority of the people that play it, aren't that worried about it is the key. Again. You don't like it, then don't play it. The belief that the only viable solution is what your vision has is fine for you. I have yet to meet anyone else that thinks yours is the future or past or alt. The big picture isn't something they worry that much about, as each game has no bearing on the story. They do their missions or death matches, and try to have fun.
It may well be time to remake the entire rule set and run with it, like D&D has done. The patchwork of rules hinders the game as more things were added and conflicts with each other. but they already lost more then a few customers that will not buy anything like the house books from them again.
So a ruthless tyrant is the preferred leader? Those are normally the ones that everyone wants gone. Interesting, as the clans represent this far better then even the CC or DC has. And yet they are bad because they are ruthless tyrants? Something doesn't add up with this.
No intel shadow war. A full fledged invasion of Terra with multiple RCTs. Removal of all the leaders of Comstar would happen.
The populations of the marches that would protest the invasion of a foreign nation is not the entirety of the march. The all or nothing attitude is getting in the way of understanding anything again. Some would love it. Normally they are ones that have suffered from the enemy. Some think they will gain power from it. The people normally don't care about another nation until they are hurt by them. Without the constant raiding and invasions, it is very possible the people would more to status quo, and maybe even not caring they are there. But this isn't along your vision, so won't be even considered.
The military had several signs of the impeding attack on Pearl Harbor. They were told to ignore them by the higher ups. So the entire 'history' of Pearl Harbor is so messed up, perceptions are on biased information.
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ghostrider
05/22/20 01:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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With this, I do apologize to anyone of Japanese descent.
This is NOT suggesting you are dishonorable thieves striking from the shadows.
It is meant as an argument for in game purposes.
As with history, many good people get screwed when they are forced into actions they may not agree with.
So again. This is not meant to say you are horrible people.
Just wanted to make sure this is understood, and not some personal attack on Japanese people.
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Requiem
05/22/20 07:08 PM
1.158.188.5
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Not everything is about the bottom line. The economic impact to the FC to finally put the DC on the defensive would pay back plenty, even more then the CC would.
Everything comes down to the bottom line and cost / benefit analysis ……
Reference is given….
Alt. History Operation Rat Revival – The Capellan’s Fall War and the new FC Capital World.
To the Post Dated 06/08/8 at 04.11 AM
DC
Cost –
75 FC/mercenary ‘Mech regiments are damaged requiring repair
Benefit -
FC are looking at a gain of approx. 40 worlds two Battlemech factories / 5 various vehicle manufactories / one aerospace factory / food / precious metals – unknown amount of jump-ships – unknown amount of captured ‘Mechs etc. during the war. – overall this war is just a change in the border only.
CC
Cost –
40-50 FC/mercenary ‘Mech regiments are damaged (requiring a reduced amount of repair)
Benefit -
FC are looking for a gain of approx. 100 worlds three battlemech factories / 4 various vehicle manufactories / two aerospace factories / three jumpship / three drop-ship / food / precious metals etc - the entire remaining CC economy – near to all of the former CC jumpship navy – a large number of captured ‘Mechs– So, the entire CC is gone – therefore a massive change in the border.
Additional Benefit –
Hanse Davion and the FC go down in history as the First to ever KILL OFF ANOTHER GREAT HOUSE.
Question – how difficult was it for the FC to control the former CC people of the top half? How often in the game does any world complain about the change in government – case in point the Clans – we are told there was partisan activity and yet no real damage was ever recorded within the canon game …… so that doesn’t count unless you adopt my Alt. Universe concepts.
As for the interdiction – How many years ago did this cease? Thus by 3039 the economy is now restored to pre 4th SW / Interdiction levels – thus he can order another war …..
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The interdiction only caused chaos among the ships that weren't conscripted.
Really? ….. when Jumpships (like ships now) have fixed routes and timetables … ?
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Why didn't the people rise up against Katherine?
Because she was loved by the average Lyran citizen …. and the peers of her realm understood the game and knew how to become even more wealthy …. and the military believed in her and Nondi Steiner!
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Joining the Clans because of …fear of (dying, family punishment, torture, and being completely enslaved), promise of increased personal power, getting rid of things like certain crimes, their own government.
1. How well did the Clan’s warriors treat the people of the IS – does Turtle Bay mean nothing?
2. How about the Clan’s belief they can separate children from their families as the do on the clan Home Worlds?
3. How about the Clan’s idea of a police force – washed out elementals who dispense punishment on their Home Worlds?
4. Getting rid of Crime – sorry but the black market would increase not decrease under the Clans rule …. And with it all the other social problems when the economy ceases to work with the removal of money as a means of social distribution of goods …..
5. Their own government? How many are in these fringe groups that want to see their Government destroyed and be replaced with a Totalitarian one? ….. can I laugh now?
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Not fighting an invader is not being a quisling. Actively helping them violate your laws is.
Tell that to many of the partisan groups in WW2 …… sorry again no history proves otherwise, especially when your liberties and everything you have ever worked for is removed at the stroke of a pen ….
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How many troops would be needed to pacify the entire CC?
Still does not answer my previous question – how many additional units were required to garrison the top half of the CC when it fell to the FC? As this would answer this question.
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The DC was the big baddie on the block, and represented the biggest threat. Once the CC fell, the DC would have to hit the FC with everything it had, otherwise they would be destroyed.
Sorry again this does not hold water – the DC must now initiate a defensive stance or attempt a headhunting strategy with a three to one scenario in military might going on the offensive would be the quickest way to destroy the DC …
As for the idea of nukes …. They were only introduced into the game en mass during the Jihad era …. How well did that pan out for the game and the people who play the game?
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Forcing the DC to submit to the FC would have gave the FC that one step closer to the First Lord position (if they actually wanted it).
This is the ultimate aim of the game circa this era …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/22/20 07:45 PM
1.158.188.5
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Concentrated weakness comes to mind
As stated before, this is a long term social reorganization of the former CC society. It will take time to get things into an orderly manner – yes there will be radicals, yes there will be sabotage – however the scope of this is not as bad as suggested – plus the IS (such as the FC) have had how many centuries of experience when it comes to pacifying a conquered world(s) … they do have an active police force, military, govt. that do know how to pacify the majority of the people on any world, as it is just the radicals than you need to look out for ….. and when the economy . social standing in goods and services increases how much support will the radicals receive over time?
Next to nil – except from other radical groups wh have become disenfranchised by the FC takeover!
Plus there will always be a few that are removed from main stream society and pursue their own agenda.
Canon –
Is it believable? Can it be substantiated by previous evidence / facts? Does the Characters that are created follow a similar personality or in future books is this previous charter somehow lacking / changes wildly to fit a new narrative – thus making no sense whatsoever?
If you make a fact – Own it – do not modify or delete it because it is now an issue in the future!
If you create a character – do no tamper with it!
Military strategy / logistics etc – get it right look at real world examples to understand how wars are conducted rater than the blanket statements that are given in the Clan’s Invasion and have little to no place in reality!
If you create a culture (Japanese Samurai) – understand that culture and do not turn every culture into some westernized version that has no real reality with what was originally postulated. Since when was Theodore a Japanese name? and since when would the Japanese call their Mech a Panther (something the Lyrans world)?
Is it so hard to ask for this?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/22/20 08:04 PM
1.158.188.5
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So another retcon that didn't do their own research.
Correct …. Also remember tha number of worlds that are above and below these worlds that could be used as hidden bases and were never discussed.
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Wolfpacks
Take one RCT
Remove the majority of its armor and infantry
Increase the number of aerospace fighters
Assign special-forces infantry and Dropships
Assign a guide – former periphery pirate
Assign a research analyst / Historian
Assign a copy of every chart / information form every era your house has
(If your game still does not allow IS units to have Warships assign nukes)
Assign a warship
Train them
Send them out
Done….
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The IS didn't have enough ships to move things around as they really needed, so did what they could with what they had.
No proof of this …. Especially when you take into account the fact that during the opening days of the 4th SW over a hundred worlds were attacked throughout the IS and by the time of the Clan invasion the IS should have manufactured more!
Then when you factor in the number of IS units on the move during the clan invasion you would still be able to move 90 RCT FC worth of units easily …… if you went back to the 4th SW tactics of using all of your Jumpships for the counter attack…. Look at the invasion corridors of each clan, the majority of units used …. this is proof that there is a massive number of Jumpships that are available and were never used in the Clan Invasion War!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/22/20 08:26 PM
1.158.188.5
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Battlesats’s first prototype was 3056 not the NL55 ….
they could produce twenty more in "the next three months" …. And by extension 20 more every three months thereafter ….. (it comes down to the comprehension of the text).
NL55 – year available 2305 – where does it say it went out of and back into service with the DC Admiralty?
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So a ruthless tyrant is the preferred leader?
Compare the DC / CC / FC leaders and the relationship they have with their people – then compare this to the relationship between the Warriors and the other castes in the Clans.
Which is more benevolent – allows worlds to have their own democracies who work out their problems without any interference from the House Lord and his ministers?
Then Look at the clans and how their people are treated …..
So yes the IS leaders though being tyrants are benevolent tyrants to whom their people love ….
And yet the Clans warriors are universally hated and feared ….
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No intel shadow war. A full fledged invasion of Terra with multiple RCTs. Removal of all the leaders of Comstar would happen.
“ComStar and the Federated Suns negotiated a settlement to restore communications to the Suns that included stationing ComGuard troops within FedSuns space to protect their HPGs from further attack. Secretly, ComStar's intelligence agency, ROM, and MIIO fought a shadow war for years.” Wiki Fourth Succession War
And politically it is impossible to invade Terra during this time frame
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The populations of the marches that would protest the invasion of a foreign nation is not the entirety of the march. The all or nothing attitude is getting in the way of understanding anything again. Some would love it.
Then what percentage would protest – 1 – 5 – 10%?
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They were told to ignore them by the higher ups.
More accurate would be they had yet to realize that with cryptology you need to review previous crypts to understand what is being received currently ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 04:09 AM
66.74.60.165
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Other factors go into deciding courses of action. Something that seems to be missing from your view. If it was all about money, then you should just surrender, and avoid any costs.
So how much damage will some rebels do to the clans? Second line and garrison ones? Will that matter when the front line gets all the repair parts, and most don't even see the rear units. So any damage done in partisan actions will not be seen in front line units.
Did you not read that Hanse conscripted a good chunk of the jumpships for the 4th war? So your timetables won't exist until they are released to perform their runs. While those that weren't are trying to cover as much of the routes that the others can't because they were conscripted. How was this simple fact missed? Sorry. Your not arguing canon with canon facts. You are saying the nonexistent numbers you have, are what canon had to work with.
Sure. Everyone loves Katherine. That is why the civil war was not a civil war, but a tea party to see who was more popular. I mean there is no one that opposed her. No unit from the LC side was destroyed as they were not loyal to her. Nope. Never happened.
Turtle Bay was what? Equal to nuking a city? It isn't the first time it happened in the IS, and it wasn't the last. It was a tragedy, but not something the DC wouldn't have done to the FC if they thought they needed to Or the FC would do to the DC if they felt they had to. There were more then a few times where invaders were killing the local populace without a real cause, other then they were seen as the enemy.
Yeah. I can see the black market increasing under the clans. It isn't like they wouldn't destroy any unauthorized dropships found, as well as the jumpship used. And unlike even the CC or DC, the black market wouldn't face a trial, just a full execution on the spot when caught by the clans. So yeah. I can see criminals running rampant.
Most fringe groups would love a toltarian government to replace theirs. One big different. THEY want to be in charge.
You have never been in a war. That is obvious. Only a very few times were invaders less brutal then your own government. So since the enforcement of laws is on the side of the new leaders, you tend to avoid making a scene if you can. Partisan actions don't operated in the open. There is a reason for that. And most understand that there isn't that many that will go out of their way to support them. Why is that? Oh yeah. People don't want to have themselves and their families hurt.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 04:28 AM
66.74.60.165
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The forces that were to occupy CC worlds taken, were not numerous enough to deal with the entire CC. And with that, most of those tied to the government would do what even they could to stop the fall, as it was their heads that would roll. Kali wouldn't have been the first since 3025 to commit acts against the normal conventions. Their would have been far more duing the 4th war, including the other houses having to stop the take over. Your all or nothing scenario where the other houses would have to do everything they could to destroy the FC military before they were turned against their own. But that wouldn't happen as it runs completely counter to your vision.
Sure. The IS had all this experience pacifying worlds. That is why the Skye region as well as Micheal Hasek were trying to remove the leaders of their own realms. And Rassalhauge and others were not doing anything like revolts, strikes, or otherwise resisting the leaders. Each realm was one big happen family against each other. Might want to give Alice back her looking glass. Reality is calling.
Nukes were only introduced en masse for the Jihad? Uh, what was the Amaris war, and the succession wars doing? Throwing ice-cream at each other? WOB used them to negate the fact the rest of the IS had far greater numbers on them. If they had used them as well as the warships correctly, the FC would only be a page in the history books.
Do you understand the entire Feudal system of the past? Own a mistake? Not try to cover it up?
And yet again, the lack of understanding the DC was based on, but not a zealously followed base on Japanese culture is coming out. This is part of why the game's mechanics with the houses eludes you. Nothing is grey. It is all extreme opposites.
Now how many novels and such has someone change entirely after a huge issue in their lives? Normally an evil turning good, or sometimes the good turning evil. A pacifist turns into the avenging demon, or the demon finding out they were wrong. Oh. But that never happens ever. Sheesh.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 04:46 AM
66.74.60.165
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Why bother with an RCT if you are going to just break it up and add extra fighters? Why not just make a normal regiment with the extra fighters attached?
Assign a pirate? Only a navigator would have the knowledge to know where to jump to. And assign a warship? Really? How much garbage did you have to poop out to get just one, when none exists? Again, canon, not alt.
Go back are read how the 4th war was started. Hanse stripped the private sector of ships in order to do this. They did not magically pop out of the shipyards for this. It was taking non military ships and making them military to do so. Why does this not register? Other then trying to bait an argument, I don't see any other reason for this.
And comprehension of the text? It does not say they could make a lot more. It says they could make so many. Meaning that was it. It would slow down to make more. Maybe the inputting of what you want into the books instead of reading what is there, is why the lack of understanding or realizing what reality is in canon is so difficult. Maybe having someone else read the books aloud will help with this. They won't be putting in words that aren't there. And not leaving out ones that are.
Do you really think benevolent and tyrant can be in the same description of someone? They are opposite terms from each other. A tyrant is a tyrant. They do things that are considered wrong and hurtful. Benevolent is not hurting others if you can avoid it.
There are more then a few wars that over half the population was against a war. So trying to suggest it was that small isn't going to cut it.
And with the Pearl Harbor issue, it wasn't cryptology or anything else like that, that cause the attack to go on without any precautions. A Japanese sub was found scouting the area, as well as a few other things. There was no reason for that sub to be there, nor were the other circumstances.
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Requiem
05/23/20 09:09 AM
1.158.188.5
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If it was all about money, then you should just surrender, and avoid any costs.
And if you are a Lyran Noble (circa 4th SW / War if 3039), then yes, it is always about the money …. also, as stated above, when there is a high profit low risk margin you can expect bakers to invest …. also when provided with a long term contract (post capitulation of the CC) that can generate large amount of money …..
Also why does anyone go mercenary if not for the money?
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So any damage done in partisan actions will not be seen in front line units.
Have a look at each Clans Touman
Jade Falcon has the equivalent of two regiments of PGCs (Second Line Garrisons) – thus when it comes to the number or worlds they can garrison and when it comes to partisan activities front line units will be damaged, especially when it comes to the fact that the majority of Clan Garrisons are at a Trinary level ….
Thus yes it is quite possible to damage a large number of units who are spread over many worlds ….
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Did you not read that Hanse conscripted a good chunk of the jumpships for the 4th war?
Fourth Succession War – From 3028 to 3030
Give a year or two until all are demobilized – 3032
War to destroy the Capellan Confederation – 3039 to 3040
6 - 7 year gap, more than enough time to set the stage – however as there is a reduced number of units compared to the 4th Succession War the entire fleet is not required thus more than enough ships to kill off the CC.
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Everyone loves Katherine.
Correct, she is a far better ruler than Victor – time to get a Happi coat with Obi and join the Katherine idol cub just like me?
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Turtle Bay was what? Equal to nuking a city?
Taking things out of context? …. “How well did the Clan’s warriors treat the people of the IS – does Turtle Bay mean nothing?” …. A complete lack of empathy for an entire city, the elderly, men, women, children, infants …. All killed off via orbital bombardment with not a second thought indicates free-born human life means nothing to some of the Crusader Clan Warriors.
And how will the entire IS take this news? …. A reason to fight ….
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So yeah. I can see criminals running rampant.
Even on a world of a couple of million how is a Clan Trinary Garrison expected to police even this small number? Especially if they are spread over an entire world …..
Lack of numbers … as stated previously the Clans are completely ill-equipped to adequately garrison any world …
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Partisan actions don't operate in the open.
Who do you think came up with the idea of the drive by assassination …. Plus many other assassination tactics, all used in the open …. Plus the majority of the intelligence operations were completed in the light of day right under the noses of their oppressors …. Time to start reading, suggestion – start with the White by Mouse Nancy Wake. (She received the George Medal, 1939-45 Star, France and Germany Star, Defence Medal, British War Medal 1939-45, French Officer of the Legion of Honour, French Croix de Guerre with Star and two Palms, US Medal for Freedom with Palm and French Medaille de la Resistance for her courageous endeavours.)
PS – remember we are only using a 3% of the total population joining the resistance formula ….. so most of the people are not involved …..
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The forces that were to occupy CC worlds taken, were not numerous enough to deal with the entire CC. And with that, most of those tied to the government would do what even they could to stop the fall, as it was their heads that would roll.
First, with all of the former CC ‘Mech units neutralized, their capitol fallen to the FC, and the Liao rulers dead (and their children on St Ives) how long will those same rulers take to switch sides to preserve their status?
Second, how many in the above half of the CC revolted when the FC took over? As the lower half should follow suit ….
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Kali wouldn't have been the first since 3025 to commit acts against the normal conventions.
Kali Liao – Born 3033…… and only if you as the GM allow it!
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Might want to give Alice back her looking glass. Reality is calling.
And the Clans they never had their own Michael Hasek? Especially when the best way to get a promotion was to kill their superior officer in a circle of equals.
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Nukes were only introduced en masse for the Jihad? Uh, what was the Amaris war, and the succession wars doing?
Where did the game start….and how long did it take to create a canon book regarding the Amaris War and The Early Succession Wars? …. Any by then how many gamers were screaming about the use of Nukes in the game?
Quote:
… lack of understanding the DC was based on, but not a zealously followed base on Japanese culture is coming out.
Refer wiki – Shiro Kurita – especially his Quotes then continue reading about his successors ….. the entire ruling culture was based upon the Japanese Samurai Martial codes ….. and when you have a top down culture the Japanese way of life should have spread throughout the DC to which this should have been all encompassing.
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Now how many novels and such has someone change entirely after a huge issue in their lives?
Then please pray tell how do we go from Hanse Davion during the 4th Succession War – the Warlord who took half of the CC (in the canon history) and smashed both the DC and the FWL go from this person to become the person who – as far as the Clan Invasion went – could be said to be sipping hot chocolate and looking for his marshmallow for the entire Clan Invasion for all the good that was achieved during this time frame?
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Again, canon, not alt.
How can I do this when they never existed in the Canon story - the Fenris forces only exist in the Alt.? so yes if in the Alt. you have Warships to spare then they will be assigned ….
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Hanse stripped the private sector of ships in order to do this.
Yes he did and in so doing he was able to attack about a hundred worlds at a go ….
So the point is?
That yes he could do it again during the Clan Invasion? and assault a small number of worlds with an invasion fleet whose capacity would equal the 4th SW initial invasion fleet + as he has killed off the entire CC he can use all of their ships + as it has been a 20 years since the end of the 4th SW and 10 years for the fall of the CC – then the number of shipyards scattered throughout the FC could manufacture how many new ships in this time frame? (especially when they now know how to do it thanks to a massive information dump – thank you Grey Death Legion) = 100 RCTs + an unknown number of other RCT units ….
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Do you really think benevolent and tyrant can be in the same description of someone?
Refer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictatorship
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There are more than a few wars that over half the population was against a war. So trying to suggest it was that small isn't going to cut it.
Within a Battletech war? Book and Page No.
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USS Ward
Keep reading …..
Especially in regards to how two of “Betty” Starks’ junior officers were under the idea that he was going to phone Hawaii as the impending attack information …. And yet rather than call he sent a telegram (and he didn’t even put a priority message code on it so that it arrived after the bombing) …. Look at Admiral Ernest king’s report regarding the Court of Enquiry over Starks actions (prior to the endorsement being expunged).
They hit the sub about one and a half hours before the aerial attack began – some even doubted the sinking until the sunken remains were found in August 2002 – Plus the US Navy ignored the sinking of the Japanese submarine prior to the attack …. One of the enduring mysteries of that day ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 03:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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War is never really profitable by the masses. Only the merchants that sell the war equipment profit from it. If you wanted to end a nation, wipe out the leader and their family. After a while, no one will step up, as they would become the next target.
Also, the FS didn't strike the CC for profit. They did it to remove a problem from their side, as well as expose the spy within the FS. It can also be attributed to Hanse striking back at Max for the double, but that would be the straw, not the main purpose.
So money isn't the only reason for wars. Greed is. Power tends to be the main focus, and money tends to come with it.
There are mercs that go professional to get freedom to go where you want, when you want. Granted that doesn't sound like something when you have to pay bills, but they can pick and choose what sort of missions they accept. Money is a big factor though.
I would suggest you read a little more, as Hanse was slowly conscripting the merchant fleets years before the 4th war. This is why the economy faultered so quickly. Each war game he held, more ships were kept that were part of those games, just like some units never returned to their normal posting. This is why the 4th war was so successful. No single or even triple worlds attacked and taken, but large chunks, as well as destroying the CC's military. No one really knew how many ships Hanse had to move troops. So there is your intel failure. All nations missed this as well as Comstar. So no. Everyone does not know every little detail about each other.
Everyone loves Katherine was a sarcastic response. If it was true, Victor would not have been able to raise anything to oppose her with. And as stated in the books, he wasn't going to, until she started destroying things that didn't need to be. Dictator turning tyrannical.
And with the bombardment, Comstar WILLINGLY continued to support the clans. The context of the strike is horrible in the reduced destruction of the IS, as well as wasteful to the clans, but it isn't unique. It also isn't something that would be the last thing.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 03:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still don't understand fear is a motivator to follow laws? No trial to twist and get out of jail. Just execution when found. And with the clans, guilt is not necessarily needed to hurt someone. In their training, they have the right to do so. It isn't a good thing, but there are plenty of things other cultures have, that are considered wrong by others. And they way the clans act, it is done to make the players want to fight them.
The strike for the partisan action is the most visible. But they just don't walk up into a command bunker and say they are looking for a way to cause problems. They don't mug the guards in public, until a strike it made.
The raids on supplies and such tend to be kept quiet by both sides.
And when you can walk a few hundred miles to get out of a country is far different then needing a ship to travel light years.
The context of Kali not being the first to commit a horrible act against people was saying that there were more then a few since the game 'started' in 3025. The use of nukes and other horrible acts were done. Most were because someone thought they should be in charge, and decided terror tactics were the best way to achieve that.
The clans had more then a few rebel against the system. If you survived, you went to the Dark Caste. One example is Trent. The warrior that gave up the location of the clan home worlds. Some would also say Ulric was one. Aidan was another. The second trial was an abomination and should not have been allowed to continue, once the Khan found out. Also, killing your superior isn't the only thing that needs to be done to be promoted. In fact, done without reason, such as outside the circle, you might well be punished for it. But to be promoted, you need to pass your trial of position, as well as removing the superior officer. That means politics, which the clans were said not to use, but used it greatly since their formation.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 03:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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So far, only you have screamed about nukes being used. Some players would use them, so the idea of the game having them isn't the end all you want to say it is. I don't agree with most of the usages, but that is not something that will stop me from playing. Now if the GM nukes the unit for no reason, then we find a new GM. It is a game. Anything is fair in love and war. I don't agree with that, but that is the way of things.
Having something based on, and being a pure zealot following it, is not the same thing. If that was the case, the LC being based on German background would have evolved far differently then it did. And they would be more likely to have revived the SL tech long before they did. But that did not happen.
Wait. Didn't Hanse die of a heart attack planning out responses to the clan invasion? And since the LC portion of the FC wasn't happy with him in charge? Nondi was the main person guiding the LC's portion for the defense of the realm. The clans were something that was not seen in the IS. Changing the way you think isn't going to happen over night. Without the black boxes, Comstar had the ability to change the game as well and did, Even with the black boxes, the message travels slower then the HPG. So conditions change between message sent, and response hits. It isn't the few hours scenario on Terra. It is weeks to months. Getting the forces together being a main issue in time.
The warship situation was in response to saying the canonverse should have done this or that. Trying to say it wasn't shows that no understanding of the game will be possible as nothing other then the vision is right. Canon is what it is, and for the most part, does make sense. Not always the way I would like, but it does do what it needs to in order to keep the game going.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 03:55 PM
66.74.60.165
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So where are the numbers to say how many new ships were made or upgraded? You say canon is wrong, but yet you have absolutely no numbers yourself to even estimate what is done.
And still using no numbers for the alt to rip on canon does not work. The alt can have super jumping Deathstars for all that matters. Saying that canon should have done so is the base root of this issue. Get away from Canon, as it is so horribly flawed, according to you, that it has to be rewritten. The only thing that seems to be changed is prediction of the future and trying to solve it in the past. Still not fixing all the holes in it. Just want to change the outcome of the clan invasion. You hate it so much, anything past the 4th war, and rewrite it all, including removal of the characters that rule.
I mean, why have a civil war? Without it, the FC could have hit the DC and got that much closer to being the prime nation for making a new League, and not doing the political bs of being first lord. They would be First Lord as the way a conqueror should be. Then go about with all the civil wars to create the conflict needed to continue the game. That would mean the FC runs the HPG network, as well as no WOB strongholds.
The 4th war had the Lyrans being cautious about the whole thing, and some in the FS didn't want the war. So maybe the entire 4th war is one that a large chunk, maybe even over half really didn't want the war.
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Requiem
05/23/20 07:08 PM
1.158.188.5
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So money isn't the only reason for wars. Greed is. Power tends to be the main focus, and money tends to come with it.
Was under the impression this section was discussing ‘in the event Hanse was having issues with his in-laws, how could he get them onside for the destruction of the CC’
The answer thus – for a Banking Nation such as the Lyrans – Money, as war is profitable for the military industrial complex as well as those that are now associated with reconstruction / security projects. As for the Battletech Universe this would also include Mercenaries.
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This is why the economy faltered so quickly
And yet this economic issue was only short term ….. as within a few short years Hanse and the FS were once more ready to initiate a large scale war. Thus the effects of the Fourth Succession War cannot be considered to be a debilitating long term issue.
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And as stated in the books, he wasn't going to, until she started destroying things that didn't need to be. Dictator turning tyrannical.
And yet the entire civil war Victor Vs. Katherine lacks credibility …
Katherine never needed to kill her mother to take the throne, just Victor, and killing him would be child’s play when he is constantly on the battlefield rather than within the palace.
Second, Katherine was constantly with her mother, her education regarding statecraft was far more skilled than that of the dribble postulated within the novels et al. Thus this idea of her ‘tyrannical’ rule has little to no credibility …
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Comstar WILLINGLY continued to support the clans
Doesn’t this strike as odd? Yes there have been some strange alliances and agendas and yet for the entire First Circuit to go along with this plan – especially when Precentor Tharkad and New Avalon were politically against Waterly – especially when she forced through Gardner Riis’ appointment following the creation of the FRR.
Only Waterly’s cronies as well as a small group that she thought she could trust must have been in on this – including Focht.
So what happens within ComStar when this becomes common knowledge or when charges are levied against Waterly by the House Lords when they are able to determine the truth? …. With every world taken by the Clans waterly’s group expands to include a new HPG station and everyone there in …. Sooner or later there is bound to be someone o objects to what they have been ordered to do by Waterly and will rebel ……
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And they way the clans act, it is done to make the players want to fight them.
Not only players but also NPC – partisans
Again – assassination, IED, Sabotage …. There is many a variety of ways to get rid of a small garrison unit … and yes they definitely “mug” guards in public if they can make a clear get away …. and no they do not need to tavel by ship to hide, the Clans do not have the manpower to complete such a search, and the use of fear will just backfire on them, as it has in so many other wars.
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The use of nukes and other horrible acts were done
Twice, if I remember correctly ….. and both events were in war settings in an attempt to destroy the enemy…..
Does the game really need these events? As far as I am concerned the answer is no. But every gaming group is allowed to have their own game structured how they want it.
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Hanse Davion
Died: 17 June 3052 and Tukayyid was – 1 May 3052
So the entire Initial invasion was over, and by then how was the war prosecuted? Shambles, a complete and utter shower! is the phrase I would use describe the IS’s action against the Clans.
It in no way shows how Hanse used his forces in the 4th SW, and in no way demonstrates his battlefield genius, as per his canon description …..
As for the Black Boxes – they existed at one point in time only to be ignored until needed as plot device in another time period only to be forgotten about as quickly as they were used …..
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Canon is what it is, and for the most part, does make sense. Not always the way I would like, but it does do what it needs to in order to keep the game going.
And can never be disputed as it is sacrosanct!
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So where are the numbers to say how many new ships were made or upgraded?
And yet where are the numbers to say how many existed in the first place ….
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The only thing that seems to be changed is prediction of the future and trying to solve it in the past. Still not fixing all the holes in it. Just want to change the outcome of the clan invasion.
Then write your own ……
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why have a civil war?
In my Alt there is no civil war … this piece of lunacy is purely the responsibility of the Canon.
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So maybe the entire 4th war is one that a large chunk, maybe even over half really didn't want the war.
Book and Page No.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 09:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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Had the LC not been there to prop up the FS, it is probable that Hanse would have destroyed the FS with the assaults. But then he wouldn't have even tried without the back up.
Kathrine was a control freak from the start. If it wasn't her way, then it was no way. She just didn't start off with brute strength. Why bother with canon at all? Still don't understand the driving need to have canon running while changing just a few things to make sure that certain parties will not be harmed. Then promote assassination to change politics? And nothing bad can happen to the one that uses it the most? And you complain about reality.... Contradiction in the extreme.
That is the problem with dirty wars. Assassinations and such much have the large scale weapons, or otherwise it becomes a purely fantasy game with out a basis in reality. Might want to play something like Paranoia or so mafia boss games. At least they haven't started using nukes.
Does a war game really need nukes and such? I am sure nukes would have been used in the middle ages if they had them. Put dead cows catapulted over city walls to inflict disease and such was used. Cutting off the two fingers archers needed to fire a bow on the losers was another thing. Then maybe the ever popular burning of the cities wasn't so bad. At least a nuke kills those at ground zero quickly. Not lingering in pain until death finally takes them. And most pray for that, then living thru such horrors.
Why don't you focus on Nondi for the poor response to the clans. She was the one in charge of the LC portion of the military. For Hanse to do anything, it would have been stepping on her toes. The FC military wasn't one big happy family. No matter what you want to think.
The issue isn't writing your own alt, but ripping on canon while using it to base something that brings out even more holes is ludicris. The holes are still there, and more are created by forcing issues that would not turn out the way it is wanted.
But some how, this is not sinking it, or the need to argue keeps the conversation along these lines.
The civil war was lunacy? Why? Because Katherine showed her true colors and needed to be stopped the only way that she could be? By military action? So the entire FC was supposed to just roll over and take the tyrant archon's abuse? Oh yeah. You ignored that entire aspect of her. But then maybe you should have changed her from a power hungry mutt, to something that was far better. The assassination of anyone in the family is enough to distrust her. But her continued rage and tantrums caused even more death and pain. So yeah. She is the 'best' ruler. Kurita and Liao have nothing on her.
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Requiem
05/24/20 04:25 AM
1.158.188.5
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Had the LC not been there to prop up the FS, it is probable that Hanse would have destroyed the FS with the assaults.
No union between the FS and LA – no FC
Thus No alliance with CC, FWL and DC
Waterly’s operation scorpion disappears – and in all probability she never gets the top job
No Victor, No Katherine ….. etc
The entire 4th SW (as per canon) must be rewritten where only the FS will come to understand Hanse’s new way to wage war (circa 4th SW) and the war will in all probability be solely between the FS and the CC with small probing battles by the DC on the FS at the same time.
The question is how much damage can the FS do upon the CC – the same as canon? More / Less?
Also as Waterly is not in Charge of Comstar the Interdiction of the FS may never have come about ….
So massive changes …….
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Kathrine was a control freak from the start.
Errrr….. no! refer to when she was dating Galen Cox and prior to this when she was working alongside her mother …..
[quote[Assassinations and such much have the large scale weapons, or otherwise it becomes a purely fantasy game with out a basis in reality.
Not so, all games need structure / rules – why is it so hard to believe that humanity has evolved beyond the use of WMDs whist still engaging in war? Dichotomy in the nature of humanity.
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Why don't you focus on Nondi for the poor response to the clans.
I was using Hanse as an example for the whole …
Did even one IS great House Military Characters act as they had in the past whist directing their available forces against the Clans from the point of view of any of the Great Houses – FC (Steiner / Davion) and DC (Kurita)? Ans: No, not one showed any form of brilliance when it came to the Clan Invasion – what was provided was a completely dull and unbelievable story.
Even statistically the story cannot be considered to be realistic …… once you begin to breakdown the war into statistical units.
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The civil war was lunacy? Why?
Consider the war as given …. Then compare it to a true civil war such as the American Civil War / English Civil War etc ….what you get is a very substandard, boring and ludicrous story ….
Victor running around the Lyran state and into the FS – where he loses worlds to the CC to continue fighting Katherine – whist there is a massive backdrop of a war with the DC and multiple wars on multiple words where multiple FC units maul each other over who their true leader is …. Oh please, give me a break!
Rewrite please ……
Again Katherine has only to get rid of one person (3050-52) and that is Victor …. She did not ever have to kill her mother ….. this was just a vicious act that destroyed the story …
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Kurita and Liao have nothing on her.
Actually this statement is correct – she has the intellectual capability of giving any ruler with the IS a run for their money at that stage.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/24/20 11:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Well the LC propping up the FS wasn't really suggesting a change there. It was saying the FS economy would still be in the dumps far longer then what it was.
There would be a whole lot more changes as well, such as Max still being in charge, instead of Ramano, as well as the St. Ives not breaking a way. The FRR would probably not have gotten free either.
How many of the Helm Core break thrus would not have been out so quickly?
The story doesn't show as much, but that does not mean she wasn't one then. Or building up to being a control freak. Seeing the power her brother had, might have changed how she felt, especially if she started feeling like she was that much better at doing things them those around her. She may also have seen her mother not using the power to do things that she felt where needed. Just like Yvonne, traits do grow as you get older.
It is very possible the military leaders did send in forces to help save a world. With this, it is possible the clans increased the bid or just reattacked after the new forces left. Given the spotty responses, it is entirely possible only a section of the unit sent arrived, and was beaten.
Well now you see the pattern in the history of the IS. They fight until the capital of a world surrenders. Part of why the clans did so well. It is a very annoying thing, but it is the way in the IS. You fight until the surrender, with a few going underground, and become part of the invaders realm. Now long slogging battles that last years.
Victor loses worlds to the CC, when he had less forces the Katherine, and she was ruling the FC. How is this Victor's doing? Katherine should have had the forces protecting those worlds. Or maybe I should say Nondi should have been dealing with that. Adam took troops that would have been working with Katherine to guard the clan border, instead of joining Victor. It seems the logic going on isn't going deep enough to be solved.
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Requiem
05/24/20 06:23 PM
1.158.188.5
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Seeing the power her brother had, might have changed how she felt,…
This is the underlying justification with Canon … just because Victor was born first he was to be given everything, even though she as a more capable leader that he ever could be …
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It is very possible the military leaders did send in forces to help save a world.
Not when every canon’s conquered world’s information is supplied within sarna wiki and the books published and can be readily analyzed - even statistically. Thus providing detailed evidence as to story which can only be considered to be lacking any real substance, and completely goes against the characters that came before – six months to a year more in constructing a more detailed story is clearly what was required …..
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They fight until the capital of a world surrenders.
They fight until the hearts of the people say to stop fighting – otherwise FRR would have surrendered to the Clans and the FS to the DC way into the future ….
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Part of why the clans did so well.
Sorry to say but the Clan’s Invasion is little more than a joke when you consider the IS - amount of front line forces used / the number of reserve units used / the number of worlds that did not have any defenders and as such was just handed over to the clans.
Then when you consider “the year of peace” and the IS’s military action post this time frame the Invasion has now become a complete and utter farce! Every Great House has one year to prepare for the next wave and what occurs in the Canon story – absolutely nothing – no one makes any real defensive measures …. And then we are expected to believe Tukayyid and the 15 years peace proposal?
Can I groan now as the story goes down the drain ….. reality and any semblance of a good story has left the building ……
Rewrite please …. As this will not stand the test of time in attempting to bring new players to the game!
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Victor loses worlds to the CC, when he had less forces the Katherine,
Please explain the Chaos March when many of these worlds went independent and were once more re-conquered by the CC.
Sorry to say but I find this premise to surpass the Clan Invasion in being a story that lacking any credibility ….
Katherine would never have called home her forces – she would have just declared this entire area a part of the Lyran State and that would have been that. Victor would have been incapable of stopping the expansion of the Lyran state into the FS ….
What we have here is yet another story of allowing a House / Clan get away with expanding their realm when in reality it should never have occurred …..
The idea that a House Lord will ever give up any territory their units hold is beyond ludicrous ….
Please note this occurred in 3057 ….
Adam taking forces to defend the border occurs during the Civil War (3064-65) following his stint with Archer Christifori – Operation Audacity …
It is just the last of the worlds that were retaken by the CC during this stage – Tikonov …
The loss of this world shows that Victor is incapable of being a Ruler – if he could not see the trap that Sun Tzu he is incapable of ever being considered his father’s son in intellect and cunning …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/24/20 07:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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The funny thing is the books actually had Hanse mobilize merc to head towards the clan front, yet most of them do not appear in the listing. This is also true of other units that were being sent, but needed more time to prepare for the journey. Was this oversight? Forgotten about? Or yet another time the writers didn't have the facts of what was going on?
The entire Chaos March was Lyran territory. It was given to Melissa for the wedding. It was Lyran troops that were stationed in a majority of it, until Katherine abandoned it when she moved against Victor. She and Nondi never moved any 'loyal' forces back in there, as she was using them all to remove any forces 'loyal' to Victor. The little alliances and such were done so they could try and resist the merger back into the CC. But this was done by Katherine, not Victor. Now if you want to change that in the alt, that's your choice. But for Canon, it did not happen the way you claim it did.
It is ludicris for the house lords to retreat units from a combat? The stand and die orders will make sure you never have loyal units every. This all or nothing attitude is why you don't understand the entire game. You would lose more forces to ambushes and such, as you would demand the units stay and fight it out, so they get wiped out. This very concept is much like you would think the CC would order. How does that turn out? The people hate the government and stop trying to even help. Sounds like something that was railed against in an earlier post.
So Victor was supposed to weaken his lesser forces by sending in troops the LC portion was supposed to have in the Chaos March why? Nondi was beaten in the LC, and those forces that were 'loyal' to Katherine were supposed to guard those world. I guess Victor would be a fault for not just rolling over and dying at Katherine's wishes. And you don't see the truth in this? Where is the logic? Katherine claimed ALL FC worlds. That included the Terran March. So who's failure was it that they were lost?
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Requiem
05/25/20 06:16 AM
1.158.188.5
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The funny thing is the books actually had Hanse mobilize merc to head towards the clan front, yet most of them do not appear ….
Once more unto the breach …. and yet no one arrives, why am I not surprised.
Novels say one set of event whereas the game supplement books say another? Yes it could have been an oversight?
And yet the overarching story does not change – minimal IS units and battles, a total lack of any real tactical / strategic battlefield events that would add something to story.
Ho Hum……
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Chaos March
Why would Katherine give up on this massive area of space that also generates a massive amount of money (and by extension a massive amount of power)? Especially when you look at worlds like Tikonov – and when you see Katherine, in the future, wandering through rooms full of ‘gifts’ (Bribes) from the nobles of her realm and noting who her supporters are by the value of the gift they have provided her ….
How can Thomas and the FWL attack the FS if three quarters of his border is controlled by Lyrans? – thus leaving Lyran worlds who have FS forces on them?
So were FWL forces supposed to be only attacking the FS forces on Lyran Worlds and NOT damaging the Lyran worlds themselves?
If his forces went through the CC – we now have a timing issue when it comes to battles near the lower half of the CC against the Capellan March Worlds
Once again the actions of key character(s) within the story no longer matches up with their given personality – she adores wealth and power or she doesn’t when she gives up such a valuable area of space?
Again, questions must be asked as to the overall validity of this time frame given the actions of everyone involved …..
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It is ludicrous for the house lords {their military commanders as no one micro-managers their military to such an extent} to retreat units from a combat?
Comprehension of what was written, again?
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So Victor was supposed to weaken his lesser forces by sending in troops the LC portion was supposed to have in the Chaos March why?
At this stage in history Victor is supposed to have (about) 150 RCTs. If this FS force is sufficient to garrison the entirety of the FS prior to the establishment of the FC why is it now impossible for it do so?
We know Katherine is holding some the FS Jumpships hostage – but as we do not know the percentage he does hold if it would restrict those units who do have a permanent fleet support from moving, in a timely manner, into this area of space if she did quit this area of space ….
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Nondi was beaten in the LC,
Timing issue again? …. This occurred at the very end of the Civil War when she was killed by Peter in Tharkad City in 3067, so the point is?
If Victor is fighting a civil war he should have known there is but one strategy – to kill the head of the snake! And yet what do we get, Victor going bush and wandering around …..
Once again the movement of military units have no real strategic, tactical or political objective ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
05/25/20 09:41 AM
71.47.193.139
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Why would Katherine give up on this massive area of space that also generates a massive amount of money (and by extension a massive amount of power)? Especially when you look at worlds like Tikonov – and when you see Katherine, in the future, wandering through rooms full of ‘gifts’ (Bribes) from the nobles of her realm and noting who her supporters are by the value of the gift they have provided her ….
Because that misunderstands Katherine's goals. This oversimplified all Lyran thinking into, "it's only about the money," which is false.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/25/20 01:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Didn't you read the part where Katherine pulls all forces 'loyal' to her out of the Terran March, just as Thomas was told about his son's death? Something like, all forces loyal to the LC will leave the posts and head into the LC immediately. That whole thing is caused the LA to basically steal a chunk of the FS ships as they headed out. This was done WITHOUT tell Victor. So scrambling to get forces into the region to stop the CC and FWL was difficult under normal conditions but the lack of transports created even more issues. In the one book he even said he would attack her right now, if he had the transports to do anything. For someone that claims to have read so much, it is either skimming, or just 'forgetting' things that counter the complaints before they are made.
Also reread what the FWL really attacked. The worlds they lost around Terra. That was the main goal of the attacks, with the story of hitting Victor for the scandal of Joshua. Once he achieved that, he then helped the CC retake their worlds.
During the civil war, I am not sure where you got the information that Victor had 150 regiments under his control, unless you are including those that were not part of this fight, but were being hit by Katherine's forces.
Having gifts given and being supporters is not one and the same. This is a prime example of lip service, which seems to be something not in your vocabulary. The same thing happens when worlds are taken by an enemy force. So quislings were within the 'loyal' Katherine alliance. OH NO! Say it isn't true. More then a few didn't like, to hated Katherine and feared her wrath enough to act like they supported her? Just like the entire history of humankind? This has always been the case, though how many have done so has been inconsistent.
This is also how assassinations tend to be done. Someone close to the person is a traitor to them, and helps get it done.
And ordering the death of Omi Kurita was one of the largest assassinations ordered DIRECTLY from Katherine. But then she never did anything like that..
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Requiem
05/25/20 07:57 PM
1.158.188.5
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Didn't you read the part where Katherine pulls all forces 'loyal' to her out of the Terran March, just as Thomas was told about his son's death? Something like, all forces loyal to the LC will leave the posts and head into the LC immediately.
… and as stated above in accepting this Canon fact Katherine is giving up on an area of space that generates a vast amount of wealth and power, something that is completely against her personality …. Tikonov – BattleMech (Heavy), VTOL and aerospace fighter production world …. Can anyone provide a coherent reason as to why Katherine would give up a world as vital as this to her hated brother Victor when she loves wealth and power?
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For someone that claims to have read so much, it is either skimming, or just 'forgetting' things that counter the complaints before they are made.
She did not have to steel these ships as they were already within Lyran space! as the entire “Chaos / Terran” Mach belongs to the Lyran State (wedding gift) – so removing these forces is just ceding Lyran Space to the Federated Suns and Victor.
Please explain why Katherine would do this?
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Also reread what the FWL really attacked. The worlds they lost around Terra.
Of which belong to the Lyran State and not the Federated Suns – again they were a wedding gift and as such belong to the Lyran State not the Federated Suns!
Thus in attacking this area the FWL are NOT attacking the FS they ARE attacking the new Lyran State, so the main goal of the attacks now becomes highly questionable when Katherine requested a Peace Treaty with the FWL – so once again the writers have created a situation that once investigated closer has “issues” with regards to its propositions.
So if the FWL did attack he would have had to have gone through the CC and engaged worlds within the Capellan March!
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During the civil war, I am not sure where you got the information that Victor had 150 regiments under his control,
Comprehension of reading once more!
At the time Katherine succeeded from the FC and established the Lyran state the Federated Suns would have had about 150 Regiments – thus making the issue of him being on the back-foot against both the FWL and the CC a completely and utterly stupid idea if you take the true number of military units the FS have from the 20 year year update and not the watered down figure as per the second House Book that completely gutted the FC forces – and to which I have never received a satisfactory answer – How could the Forces of the FC go from the 20 year update to the two House Books and somehow lose the majority of their forces – especially when you realize these forces were never on the Clan Front Lines?
So, as far as I can tell is that Canon removes the majority of the FC military units because the page count within these books must be kept to a limited number of pages and one unit per page descriptor must be maintained.
So if you keep the 20 year update and Katherine removes her forces guess what happens to both the FWL and the CC if they attack the FS who at this stage would have a two to one gap in military might? My bet is that Victor would have squashed both of these two houses if he was allowed the TRUE forces of the FC and not the watered down amount.
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Having gifts given and being supporters is not one and the same.
Comprehension of reading once more!
What this shows is that Katherine likes the finer things in life and as such would NEVER give up anything that belongs to her that provide her with the trappings of money and power – i.e. the Terran March.
We all know that the majority of her supporters were providing her lip service – this is just how the game is played when it comes to maintaining power in the Lyran State.
Comparing how Politics are conducted in the Lyran state with Quislings who worked with the Clans – this is quite amusing and completely without any basis in fact and reality – two completely different systems and situations – One is a preexisting Liege Lord whose family have ruled legally for how many centuries – and who realize that providing gifts will help grease the wheels to enable then to make money / get their issues to the front of the line (this is just the first step in political lobbying – of which occurs now) / the other represents a people willingly working with a military force that conquered their people with force and have implemented their political will on these people by force.
Assassinations do not occur with lobby groups – why kill the golden goose if they are willing to help make you money in exchange for a kick back?
However within a conquered world and quislings – yes I agree you are correct assassination would be rife.
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And ordering the death of Omi Kurita was one of the largest assassinations ordered DIRECTLY from Katherine. But then she never did anything like that.
Read Machiavelli’s the Price (of which the entire IS at this time frame can be compared directly with – i.e. the age of the Borgias and the city states of Italy) – This is a very normal thing to do, though it was done with spite in mind. If Katherine had known she had given birth though she would never have had her killed – she would have congratulated Omika and asked respectfully if she could meet and present presents to her new niece / nephew – and then she would have sat back and watch both Omika and Victor be destroyed by everyone whom he once considered his ally. A truly Machiavellian ploy.
Black Dragon society and Theodore would hit the roof …. as well as many within the DC …..
The Sandovals of Robinson and the entire Draconis March would revolt against Victor ….. his tenure within the ComGuards would become quite difficult by then …. And would mean many of supporters would be looking for a new First Prince … and we now have a third candidate for First Prince of the FS backed by the Draconis March ….. Victor’s youngest brother …. Arthur.
Of which again shows how plebian the writing was – what fun and games could have been written into the books if they just found a true devil’s advocate to whisper some very evil suggestions …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/26/20 12:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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For the alt, Katherine can lay golden eggs. For canon, the perception you have on her seems off from most of the rest of us. The pulls them out to hurt her brother. She originally thought he would stay with the FS and they may even come to blows. So the calculated idea was to show the IS she was NOT part of Operation Gemini, nor did she side with it. It was there to force Victor to send in FS forces, so they could be chewed on by the FWL. Not sure why vendetta against her brother would not trump power for a while. As you stated, while he lived, he was the greatest threat to her.
You really think every ship within someones borders are theirs? This kind of explains why the answers you get aren't what you want. And with this, she took ships that belonged to loyal FS troops on the clan border in order to strand them on what ever world they were on.
Then again, you think Katherine is a saint. For the alt, do as you want. For canon, some of these concepts don't apply what so ever.
Did you think that Katherine pulling the LC, to become the LA was just a spat? It was her trying to suggest the FC was not longer. And for her, it didn't exist anymore. And put your concept of the warrior prince to good use. Do you think Victor would not be in the front lines to defend the Terran March? As her killing him would only promote more issues, another country would rally behind her without the bloody mess the civil war was. This is how a politician does things. They use others to do the bidding.
Comprehensive reading? You mean where a good chunk of the FS forces were on the clan border? That a majority of the forces in the FC at the start of the war was with Katherine or neutral? Or did you miss where those that were loyal to the FS/Victor were being destroyed even before the civil war started? Try reading the canon books, not the alt. Some information is completely off.
And make sure you read the part where both FS and LA forces joined both sides. Even some of the Davion Guards joined Katherine, not Victor.
And you still don't seem to get it that raids and gutting units to fill others does happen.
I don't have the new house books, so can't say for certain what happened. It may well be most of those that disappeared become planetary militia to protect worlds and not be moved around by local lords. Then again, it is possible some of the information was lost or misplaced. It isn't like that hasn't happened before.
There is something wrong with the analysis in your comprehension. Some 'facts' are just wishes when discussing Canon outcomes. I really didn't see anything where Katherine was really money hungry. No golden mechs standing guard over her or some such thing like it. She wanted power, and loyalty. Something others didn't seem to want to give her, and she used her position to force changes.
And yet this comprehension can not see how other things are possible?
What is that? Why not assassinate the one in power that is forcing you into a corner? Put in a person that is friendly to your point of view? Isn't that why others help remove people with this? Some do it because the leader is blood thirsty tyrant, but in the end, most would rather kill the person then pay them, especially when they are smart enough to make sure they have the black mail evidence to put the screws to them in the future. But then this is history talking. Not something that should be considered when harping on the way humanity evolves and does things.
Well there we have it. Trying to force the game to be an old book. That is why you don't seem to understand what is going on with the canonverse. Might explain some of the conclusions going on, and why they don't fit in the canon game. But understanding doesn't seem to be the want of this. It seems this is just to vent that they didn't listen to you when developing things.
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Requiem
05/26/20 06:30 AM
1.158.188.5
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Not sure why vendetta against her brother would not trump power for a while.
Really? …. Giving in to her ‘vendetta’ will cost her a couple hundred worlds – some of them are extremely wealthy? So, Katherine is that shortsighted that she would give up her mother’s wedding gift – “I give you ….the Capellan Confederation”? …. Canon FACT.
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You really think every ship within someones borders are theirs?
Piracy is such a vulgar concept, these ships are held for “quarantine inspections” if her naval aerospace fighters can detain these ships and then assign Marines to conduct medical examinations of each crew – Victor just needs to pay their Medical expenses prior to being released!
Or how about …
Maritime Law - Once ships enter the sea recognized as belonging to a another House they are bound to obey that Houses Laws – if they violate those laws they are subject to their Judicial Rules.
It is all legal if the First Princess gives it the OK!
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Did you think that Katherine pulling the LC, to become the LA was just a spat? It was her trying to suggest the FC was not longer.
Understanding the Law …. Both the FS and the LA have laws that must be obeyed – eg. Constitutional Law / The Supreme Court of The United States - In the Lyran States that is the Estates General (FACT) – if Katherine partitions them to adopt the “opt out” clause and they agree (Because Victor has proven himself to no longer be fit to Rule the FC) then it is all Legal and above board …. FACT
If he wants to dispute this fact then he has two options. First, Legally he can request to appeal the Estates General (in a Court of Law) or Secondly, he can start a civil war …..
As he did nothing proves that he is quite inept to be considered to a House Lord …. and the son of Hanse Davion!
The fact does not change the entire Terran March / Chaos March belongs to the Lyran people as a wedding gift from Husband to wife. A fact that completely eludes some – so why would Katherine give up her mother’s wedding gift if she is now the Legal ruler of the Lyran Alliance (as ratified by the Estates General and the Lyran Military)?
Please explain why any ruler give up so many worlds then their military hold them? If any of the FS units are within this area she does have the LEGAL right, as the ruler of the Lyran Alliance, to declare them Persona Non Grata and kick them out ….
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she used her position to force changes.
Only on those rulers who were disobedient, otherwise she was incredibly loved by the Lyran people …. Why else did the fight so hard for her against Victor?
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Trying to force the game to be an old book. That is why you don't seem to understand what is going on with the canon-verse.
Then please do explain, how the militaries of every IS Great House’s military numbers changes so radically from the 20 Year update (circa 3050) to the next House Books (circa early 3060) when taking into account the number of units involved in the Clan Invasion Campaign? (…. and then take into account the page count per book does not vary that much?)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/26/20 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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For the canonverse, the wealth is nice, but not the over riding force behind all actions in the LC. Giving up worlds that she thought she would regain once Victor was dealt with. Or that Victor would retain them, but bleed the troops 'loyal' to him. It isn't like risks always go your way. Also, the whole ordeal of removing those troops was to suggest she was not part of the Gemini situation, and pulled out to show it.
Confiscating ship only means you control that, not that you own them initially, which is what the statement made suggests. There are all sorts of trick, but the fact remains they were not hers until AFTER she stole them. Simple fact.
Disobedient? You mean stealing the archonship from the first heir to the FC wasn't being disobedient? Also, when you get told to do something that is against the needs of your people, you tend to avoid doing so. Such as standing down your militia, or sending even more taxes to the higher ups. For someone that suggests breaking orders should mean death, such as troops not fighting to the death, you are very contradictive when it comes to someone that destroys the FC with her actions. But I guess the logic here doesn't register.
There are a few ways that have already been suggested. The idea that they nerfed the units to fit inside a specific range of pages is also something I would not put past the developers. It is hard enough to get people to put out the money for the books to begin with, but making extra pages without charging for it, hurts their wallet. And charging extra would mean even less sales. But this question line needs to be directed towards TPTB. Something that seems to be out of the question for you.
And yet again. The basic issue here is the fact you argue that your numbers are correct, being they are the only viable way it could be, yet don't really have any, saying the developers numbers are wrong for their own product.
And yet you say each person should be able to do what they want, yet argue the people that made the story can't.
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Requiem
05/26/20 05:07 PM
1.158.188.5
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…..the wealth is nice, but not the over riding force behind all actions in the LC.
The entire Canon Lyran history is built upon the premises of social rank and wealth ….
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Giving up worlds that she thought she would regain once Victor was dealt with
This reminds me of the establishment of the FRR where Katherine’s mother just gave away worlds …. Another scenario that ‘everyone’ believes that the Head of a Great House would do just because she made a quipped a response to embarrass a rival House Lord - after how many lives lost and over how many years were required to obtain them?
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the whole ordeal of removing those troops was to suggest she was not part of the Gemini situation…
And what, she couldn’t just send him a HPG message and say, “Hey, by the way….. I had nothing to do with what my brother did …. It is all on him and by the way I am pulling the Lyran state out of the FC because we have decided he is an unfit ruler…so can we have a non aggression pact on this one.”
Sorry to say but I cannot consider any of these suggestions to be valid! It is not within the realms possibility that any ruler would ever give up, without a War, such a massive area of space that generates a massive GDP including several military industrial corporations. Lyran troops bled to obtain these worlds – there is no way any ruler would just walk away from them!
In my opinion this is just a completely ludicrous proposition ….. whats next? Oh yes I absolutely believe this is valid! …… and next I will believe that the DC will allow Victor to marry a heavily pregnant Omika and they will give him Dieron Military Prefecture as a wedding gift whilst Duke Sandoval will give the toast …..
This is completely not believable!
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The fact remains they were not hers until AFTER she stole them. Simple fact.
…and the simple fact remains if Victor wants them back is going to have to pay! Politics 101.
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Disobedient? You mean stealing the archonship from the first heir to the FC wasn't being disobedient?
Question: she used her position to force changes
Answer: Only on those that were disobedient
Comprehension: those that were disobedient refers to her House Lords. And by the way she stole nothing when the Estates General offered her the Archonship due to Victor proving himself an unfit ruler it is LEGAL. If he wants to regain the Title then let him do so in an Assembly of the Estates General or Civil War!
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sending even more taxes to the higher ups.
Failure to do so is illegal …. To change the tax system, run for Government and change the Law.
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For someone that suggests breaking orders should mean death, such as troops not fighting to the death, you are very contradictive when it comes to someone that destroys the FC with her actions.
Law …..since when has the law been logical?
Cowardice in the face of the enemy is a valid charge officers can bring before a court of enquiry …. Though they should have absolute proof because of the political ramifications of this charge …..
Taking the throne when offered by the Estates General and the Military is also legal when they have no confidence in their current ruler’s administration ….. USA Constitution Twenty-Fifth Amendment is an example of an opt out Clause. In the event the people no longer have confidence in the current administration there must be a legal way (that does not involve the use of force) to remove them. The same can be said for the Lyran state it is a Legal means of restoring confidence in the leadership of the state.
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The idea that they nerfed the units to fit inside a specific range of pages is also something I would not put past the developers.
Then please do explain how and why the entire IS’s military is reinvented between the 20 Year Update and the following House Books? For no one will explain this issue so that it makes any sense …
Asked and not answered …..
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The basic issue here is the fact you argue that your numbers are correct, being they are the only viable way it could be, yet don't really have any, saying the developers numbers are wrong for their own product.
Canon – Twenty Year Update List of all Military Units for all IS Houses
Then the Clan Invasion …..
Then post clan invasion every IS House’s military undergoes a massive reorganization where the 20 year update and every book prior is no longer considered relevant to what goes forward – So does this mean that at any stage, for any reason, any IS House / Clan can have their size of their military changed with no recourse for past history just because TPTB wants to change it? And everyone will just accept this no questions asked?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/27/20 03:31 AM
66.74.60.165
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Do your actually know the books and the game? From more then a few responses, it seems like you haven't.
Katherine DID send a message saying she didn't participate and was horrified by the operation. But then do you really trust someone that is a leader of your biggest enemies? You might, most wouldn't.
And lives lost trying to do things and someone in the future screws up the sacrifice is standard operations for the human race.
We know what happens with Omi. Funny that you correct all the bad things that happen to the FS/FC, but won't even bother with the others. But then this is completely biased or favoring the FS/FC in the alt. Did I say that right? You claim the developers favored the clans, yet you are doing the same with Katherine and the FC? Does that stink of hypocracy?
There are many times in the past that lands won by combat were given away. Your beloved history is full of this action, such as all the lands taken in WWI and WWII. Germany, and a few other countries that helped them in the first war, should never have existed after the war by your accounts. The U.S. and U.K. should be in control of those places, as well as Australia being part of the Brittish empire still. Oh wait. They gave that up as well as the 13 colonies in north America? A good chunk of Africa should belong to the British as well.
Might want to read up on Feudalism. The top ruler tends to have power only when those beneath them say so. Otherwise, those running the areas can do what they want. Rebellions come from this, such as Skye. The PEOPLE want out of the LC/LA. Oh wait. That just screws up your entire argument of everyone loving Katherine. They want out even with her running things. Oh yeah. She was even worse trying to strangle them into submission. Interesting.
How about you get one of the original play manual for the game when it came out in the 80's? You know. The one before Citytech, where they had only 12 mechs. No canon other then the ac5 and it wasn't called the ac5, but autocannon. The largest mech in the game was the Battlemaster. So the ENTIRE history was changed constantly. As new things came out, they changed things even more. 2750 was the first time you ever heard of ER or Pulse weapons. And yet no Star League cache found ever had any. It wasn't even hinted at to the players.
So instead of rewriting the history at that time, they came up with things that didn't make smart sense, but everyone I know of, didn't really care much as they wanted to play the board game, not the RPG.
And to answer your question about change on a moments notice, it has been done in the past. Mainly having the force size increased, but not always.
As stated so many times already. Most players are not worried about the storyline having issues. They want to play the game, and without death matches, they need a war scenario.
Almost like the board game and the story really aren't about the same thing, come to think of it.
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Requiem
05/27/20 08:40 AM
1.158.188.5
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Note not one serious question debated –
Any serious and rational continuation of historical events based upon previous events – i.e. the continuation of history goes from from one pot hole in history to the next pothole due to a comple lack of understanding as to past events
Why Katherine would surrender the Terran Mach, as it belonged to the Lyran State as per the Wedding Toast, to the Federated Suns …. and by extension why the Lyran state would give up worlds within the Tamar region for the establishment of the Free Rasalhague Republic.
How Jumpships can be held for ransom.
The Law and how the Estates General and the military can elect, thus making it Legal, for the next person in the Line of Succession to take control of the Lyran State from that of the existing Ruler - if the existing ruler is found to be inadequate for the position …
That the 20 year Update and that of all future books are no longer a harmonious due to the reorganization of ever IS House’s military
Can I therefore assume my summation is to be taken as correct?
Please note I used irony and sarcasm in the previous post to ridicule and criticize the fault of historically unbelievable events.
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There are many times in the past that lands won by combat were given away …. such as all the lands taken in WWI and WWII.
Of which only occurred when Germany SURRENDED at the end of both wars. So when the Lyran State surrenders to the Suns then this comparison can be considered viable. (sarcasm)
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Feudalism.
Definition - https://www.google.com/search?q=feudalis...me&ie=UTF-8
When applied the top ruler rules and the bottom must pay that person homage – when this is reversed is when rebellions occurred – Runnymede – Wat Tyler’s Peasant’s Revolt ….
Question did the people of Sky use the Civil War as a pretext of rebellion to gain their independence at this time – I vaguely remember the Death of the Grey Death Legion around then – however, beyond this did their rebellion ever amount to anything of any worth?
So did Skye remain with the Lyran State post Civil War?
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How about you get one of the original play manual for the game when it came out
Launched in 1984
20 Year Update – First Published in 1989 – 5 years into the games development.
There is a massive difference between literature printed at the start of the game and that of 5 years into the games development.
Should we compare the first House Books with that of the most recently published now and make comparisons? (satire)
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Most players are not worried about the storyline having issues.
And what of those who are?
Finding issues within the game should be prerogative of the gamer in an attempt to improve its future development … case in point my Alt Vs Canon Clan Invasion – how many new and exciting additions have I created that is some small way add value to the game?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/28/20 03:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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Well for the super informed one, you have forgotten a fact about the FC alliance. The general estates was NOT the one to give Katherine the ability to take the LC out of the alliance. Maybe you should do some research and really read what is printed, not the words that aren't there. I had forgotten about it until a while ago.
The FC alliance had a clause in it that would allow either state to pull out of it if there was an emergency or issue that would really negatively affect the other.
And now you want to talk about bs set ups in the clans. Why not check out the IS first. The richest state is hobbled by social generals, meaning they could not use that economic might to remove the others.
The second richest state, the FWL, was so fractured, they were more likely to hit each other then the enemy, with a few exceptions.
The CC is the worst of all, yet some how has managed to stay in the game. They are weak and generally lacking funds as their leaders are hording that.
The DC is set up so they were so strict, they could not do much on their own, as their superiors would punish them, especially if their actions embarrassed them.
The FS was militarily better for the most part, yet didn't seem to have enough forces to do anything permanent.
Balance in the game really has odd quirks.
Jumpships held for ransom are basically seized by an entity, and 'ransomed'(sold) back to the original owner. Just like mech warriors and such.
Think about the contradiction in the general estates electing a new ruler, then place Katherine and Arthur side by side. Adam was pronounce Archon by Arthur, yet you say that isn't possible, yet Katherine taking over is? Adam is still part of the blood line, so that negates each other. He may be removed a few but still eligible for the position. Now argue that with Katherine.
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ghostrider
05/28/20 04:04 AM
66.74.60.165
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A lot of Africa was taken by the Germans, then taken by the allies. Yet all the countries were returned, and not absorbed. Italy, Hungary and others that went in with Germany were never kept by the victors. The brittish gave up a lot of lands so the sun did finally set on the Union Jack. India being a big one.
The statement of using the original 12 mechs compared to the over amount in the published TROs and a good chunk of the TROs are reconned into the game as they were NOT even made when the game came out. So yes. The game is constantly changing.
Maybe the developers realized just how many troops the FC had, then seen how many factories produced how much, and realized their accounting mistake. But this is a guess, as I don't work for, not talk to, the developers of the game.
Finding issues should be the prerogative of the gamers? Not even close.
The developers should find those issues and correct them as soon as they can. The gamers are to play and have fun, though it seems that some can't play the game because Omi ate Avocado toast one day. Even with a campaign, the players will have to change their universe to canon if they want to participate in other gamers universes. Just like D&D, or Warhammer or any other game out there. So in the end, the story doesn't matter, just stomping each other is.
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Requiem
05/28/20 06:13 AM
1.158.188.5
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Federated Commonwealth Alliance Document
3020 – The Lyran Commonwealth and The Federated Suns signed the FedCom Accords
20 August 3028 – Marriage of First Prince Hanse and Archon-Designate Melissa at which Hanse made his fateful announcement: "Wife, in honor of our marriage, in addition to this morsel... I give you the Capellan Confederation!"
Fourth Succession War – CC worlds and FWL worlds conquered in order to connect these two realms
These worlds can therefore be considered part of the Lyran Half as per the Wedding Declaration and not part of the Federated Suns
Fast forward ……..
Victor commits an unconscionable act, and under the FedCom Accords (A document that has again never been created for anyone to read – with only minor notes as to what the document actually contains) includes the provision that in case of emergency the two realms can be separated back into their previous Houses (CANON FACT).
The procedure of which relating to how the two FedCom converts back to their previous two Houses has NEVER been discussed.
As Katherine is Victor’s First-Princess-Designate (next in line for the throne), legally all she would require is authorization by the Government (Estates General) to take control and declare independence – such as how the USA 25th Amendment is implemented, with a signature on a document a change in government occurs.
Refer under The Estates General
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Archon_of_the_Lyran_Commonwealth
If it requires a different method can you please provide the canon evidence – Book Name and Page No.
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The richest state is hobbled by social generals, meaning they could not use that economic might to remove the others.
Prior to the 4th Succession War – Yes
However, post 4th Succession War onwards as the FedCom military work together this statement can no longer be considered an absolute. Hanse Davion’s military reformation changes the Lyran system and removes the Social Generals from the military.
So this statement is no longer valid …
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The DC is set up so they were so strict, they could not do much on their own, as their superiors would punish them, especially if their actions embarrassed them.
As for the DC – Gunji-no-Kanrei Theodore Kurita pushed through a new interpretation of bushido – thus he reformed the military and DC society – thus the strict view of the Kombine no longer holds sway
So this statement is no longer valid …
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The FS was militarily better for the most part, yet didn't seem to have enough forces to do anything permanent.
…and yet as per the 20 Year Update this statement cannot be considered to be valid statement with the FC possessing nearing 270 Regiments – and the next most powerful the DC at 99 Regiments.
So the entire idea as to the bs with regards to the Clans is a FACT, the Clan Invasion as written has no substance to any kind of what could be considered to a realistic story when applied with the 20 Year Update Report as to each House Militaries TO&E. (In my opinion – and statistically when mathematical statistical analysis)
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Think about the contradiction in the general estates electing a new ruler
Katherine is the First-Princess-Designate – i.e. if Victor dies without any children, Legally Katherine is next in line to assume the throne of the Federated Commonwealth.
Arthur has a son – so he is legally next in line, as per the rules of succession; Arthur DOES NOT have the legal authority to give the throne to Adam – he can make him Protector of the Realm and part of the Triumvirate Regency …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Triumvirate_Regency
Adam is on a Cadet Line of House Steiner so distant his name nor or his family line ever appears on the official Family Tree …. So from a legal point of view this becomes a Coup … not an official transfer of one Ruler to the Next (which shows a complete lack of understanding as to the rules of Succession)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adam_Steiner
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Adam is still part of the blood line …. He may be removed a few but still eligible for the position
Can I laugh now at the absurdity of this statement when applied against the Rules of Succession.
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A lot of Africa was taken by the Germans, then taken by the allies.
Colonies are from the early 1800’s onwards.
So how does this relate to the Inner Sphere mid 3000’s onwards?
Apple meet Orange …. Orange meet Apple ….. (satire)
So this statement has no real validity ….
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Finding issues should be the prerogative of the gamers? Not even close ….. So in the end, the story doesn't matter, just stomping each other is.
If this is how you consider the game that that is OK with me.
However I have a vastly dissenting opinion – the game requires a rational historical development and if it strays I believe I have a duty to point these issues out.
There are just too many issues that require an explanation ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/28/20 12:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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Unconsciounable act. Like declaring war on an enemy to steal their worlds, killing thousands to millions?
Taking the life line of colonies and worlds by taking their only source of importing things?
Maybe entire regions? Releasing WMDs?
As the story says, it was not to put an imposter on the throne but to buy some time to keep the FC from losing even more to the clans.
If it had gone thru, it would have been considered the best idea to prevent realm deaths, or to put the FC one step closer to the first prince title.
And with this, why don't you talk about Comstar doing the same. WOB became a powerhouse for a short while from doing it. Yet no mention here. So one person's child died. How many others died or were kidnapped in the history of the IS? Or real life if you want facts and truths?
Now where do you find the printed rules of succession for the Lyrans in the game? I would like to read them.
Reagent would have probably been a better term, but it provides others with the means to ignore commands given out, as they are not the archon but a meer reagent.
The LC is still hobbled by social generals. Working with the FS helped change some of this, but in the end, they seemed to start reverting back to the old ways. Cronies being given favors for support of the archon comes to mind. The lower command kept more of the information going, which is the main way the LC had gotten as far as it did.
Now all the changes from the initial set up lasted how long before the clans obliterated the newer ways?
Then WOB?
But the statement was to show the initial set up was to provide a strength the hobble the realm. So it wasn't the clans that this was done, but the entire history of the game. So where is the surprise with this?
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ghostrider
05/28/20 12:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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No historical fact of a military unit superior in firepower, yet lacking numbers could invade and expect to not only take but hold that territory? Did history flee from your memory? This has happened more then a few times. Maybe the issue of the Brittish occupation of India was all just a story. What about the Mongols or even the Roman empire? They had inferior numbers, yet controlled far more lands then most. In the end, that number issue hurt them enough to cause their fall. Yes, it is not the only thing, but one that important to this discussion. And the superior fighting styles and warriors helped and is part of this as well.
The fact that the countries taken in the world wars no longer existed when they were conquered, then reconquered by those opposing Germany and her allies would mean those countries lands would belong to the victor. Yet they were given back, as the victors didn't want them. So no historical basis for giving up lands?
Explanation. Funny how you still haven't asked the developers to explain themselves. More likely they told you to leave them alone and blocked your requests for information. Or maybe they told you what they meant and you didn't like it, so are now trying to find someone sympathetic to your views. If the game has that many things that irk you and need explanation, then stop dealing with it. Make your own, and stick with it.
Saying they should have done your ideas, yet not providing what you 'require' from them makes the whole complaining sound like that is all you wanted to do. Complain.
As said many times before, the game has issues. The story line isn't so bad as rule issues, and the impact their changes had. For some changes, it negates a lot of things in the history. Yet without addressing the fact the rules need to be consistent and logical, not the contradiction that comes out saying this can't be done, yet the writers do it, needs to stop as well as some tech and construction concepts. I understand the issues of trying to keep mechs as kings, but they screwed that up by allowing vehicles to ignore heat from ballistic and missile weapons. That allowed the rise of the heavy weapon platforms that could carry 10 srm 6 packs and not worry a single bit about heat. Then they came out with the half weight missile launchers and what do you know. 20 srm 6 packs. And with the armor the carrier has, ammo limitations is not a factor. It will die quickly when hit.
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Requiem
05/28/20 05:03 PM
1.158.188.5
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Unconscionable act.
Yes, this is an unconscionable act, when you target the heir of the FWL and the son of its current ruler …. Hanse (Victor’s Father) initiated Operation Rat for a similar act ….
… and as a result of this Operation Gemini …. thus he (Thomas) declared war …. Killing who knows how many.
Then can I ask what how you would describe Victor’s action in ordering the creation of a double for Joshua Marik to disguise his death from his father Thomas Marik ruler of the FWL?
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… it was not to put an imposter on the throne but to buy some time to keep the FC from losing even more to the clans.
This is just Victor’s point f view, what is Thomas’ point of view on all of this – replacing his son so that Victor can one day control the FWL … in other words Victor is using Maximilian Liao’s plot (Operation Doppelganger) and he is not wrong, from his point of view Victor is committing an unconscionable act and he is not wrong.
Victor is completely ill suited to be the ruler of the FC as this demonstrates a complete lack of empathy on his part to and the FWL – there are always other political options.
In my Alt Universe: I would have sent one of my archeology units into the lost Hegemony worlds to find a lost (Historically significant) Medical Facility to obtain any lost Star League Medical Artifacts / Knowledge that could have assisted Joshua when he was sent to the FC for treatment. And yet nothing in the game world ….
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If it had gone thru, it would have been considered the best idea to prevent realm deaths, or to put the FC one step closer to the first prince title.
To be successful no one should have know of its existence – what it does show to the IS is that Victor (at this stage in his life) has the morals of Maximilian Liao - a very apt comparison.
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And with this, why don't you talk about Comstar doing the same.
… and yet ComStar got away with it! This is the difference, their agent was able to act with impunity ….
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Now where do you find the printed rules of succession for the Lyrans in the game? I would like to read them.
This is very easily supplied – go to the back of the First House Steiner Book – unfold the Family Tree then look at all the annotations against each of the family members indicating the line of Archons.
Parent to child …..Not from me to a distant relative no one has ever recognized ….
Reference can also be made to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_British_throne
What this shows is a complete lack of respect for the Battletech Universe when it was decided to put Adam in as Archon!
Then compare this with the issues of succession for the DC – Vincent, Ryuhiko and Chomie Kurita all assassinated – thus leaving 30th Century Theodore Kurita’s illegitimate Son’s (Franklin Sakamoto) granddaughter as the closest living member of the Kurita Family to assume the throne – Yori Kurita.
QED – In my opinion, TPTB staged a Coup on the Lyran State and people by appointing Adam as Archon.
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but in the end, they seemed to start reverting back to the old ways. Cronies being given favors for support of the archon comes to mind.
Can anyone prove to what extent this cronyism extended within the LAAF? Case in point 15th Arcturian Guards – Thorin at the Start of the Civil War. For every social officer – (who killed Archer’s Sister) - there is also a Felix Blucher and an Archer Christifori.
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So it wasn't the clans that this was done, but the entire history of the game. So where is the surprise with this?
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Did history flee from your memory? This has happened more then a few times. Maybe the issue of the Brittish occupation of India was all just a story. What about the Mongols or even the Roman empire?
Really? OK …. Mongols and Romans ….. both used military fear to keep the locals in line, a person could walk the breath of the entire Roman empire with impunity and say “I am a Roman Citizen” and such was the fear of reprisal by the Roman Military that they would unleash upon the people, if but one of their citizens was hurt, order was maintained …. Can we see this within the Clans (other than that of the Jaguars?) and even then how many partisan activities occurred within their OZ – to such a point it looks more like Ireland in the time of troubles?
Brittan Colonial India …. Trading rivalries / A weak and unstable states emerged as becoming increasingly open for manipulation by the great European powers of the time as the Indian rulers became dependent upon the Europeans to retain their Thrones (City States). Over time these rulers became Proxy rulers and with a massive military intervention they completely took control of the Subcontinent …. Can we see the FedCom state as being a weak and depending on outside militaries to maintain their powerbase circa 3050, thus becoming Proxy Rulers for the Clans as what occurred in India?
The Clans do not have any ability at garrisoning and maintaining order upon any IS world. Even the idea that fear would ensure their rule is a laughable idea – the age of Mongols, Romans and Colonial Brittan is over – as the social norms of the people the Clans are attempting to Rule are at complete odds with that of the social norms of the Clans.
A point overlooked by many – to put it in simple terms - it is just the Clans putting a flammable liquid on a fire and being surprised by the explosion when the people of the IS rise up to overthrow them.
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would mean those countries lands would belong to the victor. Yet they were given back, as the victors didn't want them. So no historical basis for giving up lands?
And yet they were given back when the victor demanded reparations from the vanquished – when did this ever occur just because the ruler of the realm just walked away for no reason whatsoever?
Where is it within the history of the IS that a ruler who took a vast area of space and just gave it up of nothing?
The establishment of the FWL – The Lyrans – can anyone make any sense of this?
The retreat of Lyran forces from what would become known as the Chaos March? Again does this make any sense?
Any others?
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Explanation. Funny how you still haven't asked the developers to explain themselves.
Funny how I have and never received an answer ….
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If the game has that many things that irk you and need explanation, then stop dealing with it. Make your own, and stick with it.
Question – what is my Alt Universe then?
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Yet without addressing the fact the rules need to be consistent and logical
Then may I suggest you re-write the rules for your At Universe and post them if you have so many issues with them?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/28/20 10:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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The use of Operation Gemini was a desperate act to try and keep the FC military in weapons to fight the clans. And it was NOT to replace the ruler of the FWL as you are so adamant about accusing him. For canon, anyways. The alt can have them both mud wrestle for the title for all it matters.
And yet again, it was started with Hanse. If the clans had settled down sooner, it was to be presented to Thomas, who isn't Thomas to begin with, that his son passed away. Katherine would definitely have used Gemini to put the fake on the throne. The books even said she thought it was a good plan, just poorly executed. But she needed the excuse to pull the LC out of the FC, to gather power to her whim.
Do you think the ENTIRE HISTORY of the IS wasn't involved in trying to find lost artifacts, like medical centers that dealt with regeneration of organic material and such? It wasn't just pure military, though that was a main goal. For the alt, a simple wave of the hand and shouting hocus poccus will make such a facility pop up, but in the canon, and for that fact, everyone elses game, it wouldn't happen. And here is the kicker. Thomas worked for Comstar, and they would more then likely have such equipment like this. So why did it fall to the FC to do this? Or maybe it was Comstar/WOB that cause the cancer, so to push the war to happen? So yeah. It is illogical that Thomas had to rely on the FC to give any hope to his child.
So the act is only bad when Victor does it? Doesn't matter if it was successful or not. Comstar put a double on the throne of the FWL. Is it any wonder why they sided with the clans? Oh yeah. That was on Walterly's watch as well...
Did the first circuit know of this?
The wiki for the Brittish line has nothing to do with the game.
Now, when, during that entire history of the archonship, was the leader held captive by a hostile force, and could not escape the world? So to remove the symbolic victory that would demoralize the LA, it was moved towards his cousin. You know, Nondi's child. It wasn't like Adam was from a 20th generation removed family branch, like you are trying to make it sound like.
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ghostrider
05/28/20 10:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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Let's dissect the social generals, in your example. The person that killed Archer's sister was nobility and would not stand trial for such an act. Archer was not a general. So he was a lower rank.
And with that. lower ranked officers could tell ranking ones what to do if the lower ones had noble ties. What is that? Democracy. I forgot... sheesh.
Comprehensive reading and can't see the statement of the entire history of the game is set for nerfing things so no one is supposed to gain an advantage over the rest. The clans were not favored as you suggest, but their weakness was not apparent, or was wholly struck upon.
Can we see that the concept of the Roman and Mongol empires gave back lands that were taken in combat, but were not retaken? They just left as they could not hold onto them, BEFORE they lost forces trying to hold them. Does this not count as stated? The question of why would an entity willingly give up lands that their soldiers died for comes to this explanation. Yet some how, it is suggested the clans are at fault for the creation of the FRR, and Katherine's pull out of the Terran March? Something sounds so wrong with this.
What sort of reparations was demanded from France when freed? All of north Africa when freed? China? Eastern Europe? I have not seen anywhere that says they got so much money and items from any state that was freed from German control. England could well have annexed France, ending the issue of which would outlast the other. Which by the standards you present, should have happened.
Now there is an assumption that causes the lack of understanding things. The giving up lands was NOT for nothing as you suggest. The FRR was a political ploy by the DC to make sure they had a buffer against the FC on a chunk of border, and the Terran March was so Thomas could bleed Victor and try to establish she was not going to side with him. Now if it is flawed, then I guess Katherine isn't as smart as you make her out to be. Your idea of her is only in your vision. Those that created her and the game thought otherwise. So they are wrong to do as they wanted to with their story and game? And again. How much money do you make writing for the company? None. That is because your concept does not work with those that own the game. You do not own it, you just own the rights to play with it.
Missing the point yet again. Continued saying canon is wrong and only your view is right is the basis of all the problems. You keep saying they need to change their game to fit your view. Again. Why? A majority are fine with it the way it is. You want to present the alt, do it without saying canon needs a rewrite in order to fit your views.
It does need better reconning done, and honestly, starting over with a full rewrite of all the rules, then go from there. Not the hackfest we get. The SL never really existed as an entity when the game came out. It was a magical land where miracles happened, and the IS fell into the dark ages when it left. NO advanced tech was found until 2750 came out. Even the Goliath's found in the 4th war were not advanced tech. Rewrite to fill in the holes is useless when the support under it won't hold up. And again. No numbers presented to even suggest the developers are wrong. And I know some of their figures don't work correctly.
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Requiem
05/29/20 03:20 AM
1.158.188.5
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The use of Operation Gemini was a desperate act to try and keep the FC military in weapons to fight the clans. And it was NOT to replace the ruler of the FWL as you are so adamant about accusing him.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions ….
This has NOTHING to do with Hanse and has everything to do with Victors’ lack of maturity and ability to rule.
It does not matter what Victor was attempting to do what matters is the consequence of his actions – Thomas, as a father and a ruler of a realm, took this action as a father and a ruler would, a betrayal of the FS and Victor (personally) against him and the FWL.
Thus proving that Victor’s inability to rule ….
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Do you think the ENTIRE HISTORY of the IS wasn't involved in trying to find lost artifacts
Snord’s Irregulars and their museum .. so yes the way it is written they are one group of a very few who are actively hunting for lost artifacts – and as written they are only looking on known inhabited worlds. No one is looking on worlds that were destroyed due to previous wars or were lost to time and were one part of the Hegemony.
There is no evidence whatsoever as to anyone looking into these lost worlds – otherwise TPTB would have created a map by now. This is why people like me are needed to create it for themselves.
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Thomas worked for Comstar, and they would more then likely have such equipment like this. So why did it fall to the FC to do this?
1st. By now Thomas (both real and fake) have gone rogue;
2nd. Do you really expect ComStar to heal Joshua – and in so doing letting the entire IS know that they have hidden away Star League information. This is the thin edge of the wedge if they did this. It would quickly spiral out of control with questions as to what else ComStar has hidden away; and
3rd. It goes against the tenants laid down by their Saint.
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So the act is only bad when Victor does it?
Yes, it only matters if you get caught.
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The wiki for the Brittish line has nothing to do with the game.
Disagree – it exemplifies exactly how all the Houses rules of succession work. Place their rules side by side with the all the Family trees and they show this is exactly how they operate!
Please investigate House Steiner Family Tree – https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Steiner#Family_Tree
House Steiner-Davion has not even been completed on this family tree as it would demonstrate the illegality of Adam becoming Archon ….
Then look at all the families and individuals between House Striner Davion and that of Adam Steiner (which is just a dotted line off the Simon Borge-Steiner line – showing that his line cannot even be accurately defined!) All of these people come before Adam within the rules of succession ….
Then ask yourself where Trillian comes in …. As we now shift back to the original and true House Steiner-Davion Line …. Once more …
So yes it is far worse than anything that could be considered.
And in so doing show that TPTB staged a Coup on the Lyran state!
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The person that killed Archer's sister was nobility and would not stand trial for such an act
Please re-read – he did stand trial and was found guilty – the issue was that Katherine, as a favor to his father, commuted his sentence and even gave him back is rank, as he was busted to the ranks. And even though he obtained his rank back – His CO made sure to make his life within the 15th a living hell.
So what does this say about the state of social officers within the LAAF?
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Can we see that the concept of the Roman and Mongol empires gave back lands that were taken in combat,
They just left …..? The fall of the Roman empire occurred over a vast period of time and involves many complex issues ranging from economic, military, sociology / cultural, religious, alliances, miss management of the empire over many centuries . Trying to compare this to the whim of Katherine at a single point in time when her military is at full strength, there are no internal issues within the Lyran State cannot be considered a viable subject.
As for the Mongols – Once the Khan died there was no true line of succession so that within one generation his sons had all but destroyed the Mongol empire.
Try again.
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What sort of reparations was demanded from France when freed?
WW2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations
There are also other sites that can be found using a search engine.
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The FRR was a political ploy by the DC to make sure they had a buffer against the FC on a chunk of border
Usually a buffer can last more than 5 minutes in battle – the 20 year update (3050) has the FRR at 16 Regiments, how long would they last if FedCom decides to conquer them?
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and the Terran March was so Thomas could bleed Victor and try to establish she was not going to side with him
and I believe every elephant house has a cat flap in the door (satire)
1st. The Terran March is Lyran – by right of the Wedding Toast;
2nd. What ruler would give up a vast realm who has a massive GDP and produces a massive Tax income stream just to have a go at her brother?
This does not hold any validity …..
This is why I create MY ALT for me and for those who consider what I am doing is correct. All gamers should have the right to create their own version of the Battletech Universe and they should be allowed to post (if they decide they want to) so that we can all appreciate a different view of the game. Thus we are all richer for having many different scenarios, rather than just the one provided.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/29/20 11:35 AM
66.74.60.165
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Nothing to do with Hanse? He was the one to originally start up the operation. It was something that was made near the end of his life. How is this not involving him?
So a ruler doing what is needed in order to keep his people alive and free, is a horrible thing to do? So breaking up the FC wasn't a horrible thing to do? It only created the situation where a power mad ruler was using all sorts of horrible things, like starving people because they didn't just jump to their knees and worship her. Vanity is the word for it.
The person that was acting as Joshua did it on a volunteer basis. They were not brain washed or anything of the sort. It was very much a standard operation done in an intel operation. The only difference is the person who was the target ruled another nation. Sorry. There is a second difference. Victor was the one ultimately ordering it.
And what do you know. It helped consolidate Thomas's power.
There were thousands of teams out looking for SL things. Snords was a CLAN unit that KNEW where a good chunk of them were. So they were not searching for them, but locating and removing anything that wasn't found yet.
No map to where they are located at, and then say you have to make them up? Really? Saying a GM needs to create scenarios for their players, yet when everything is printed, it prevents that very thing from happening. And if there was a map, that would mean they were found.
This also suggests that you have not read everything. The whole Galtor campaign arose from looking for an SL stash. The computer algorithm said there was one likely on Gator. The system was pretty accurate so Hanse decided to create a fake depot. Then found a real on while the DC attacked. Hmmm. No evidence? Companies hiring people to explore around to find them is no evidence? I guess comprehensive reading means seeing things that aren't printed and ignoring things that are printed.
Thomas went rogue, yet allowed WOB to find shelter in the FWL?
And since Comstar had 50 regiments of SL mechs stored on Terra they used for spreading the Comguard around the IS isn't an indication they had access to League facilities, also considering Terra was home to the ruling family? The FS knew Comstar tried to shut down the research on the Helm Core, permanently. That would say that Comstar was protecting their own information hold. This would also extend to them killing anyone that was making break thrus in HPG tech.
And Thomas would have known they had it, and would have extorted them to save Joshua. Also, he would know things like where to go and whom to talk to. WOB agents would be more likely to have done so without telling the first circuit. But that involved actually thinking logically.
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ghostrider
05/29/20 11:54 AM
66.74.60.165
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Thomas did get caught. And Hanse decided the people of the FC would benefit more from not exposing him to the rest of the IS. With this, I would think Comstar had replaced more people in the past as well. Just minor nobles. Just enough to gain access to things. As I said last post. This is pretty standard for intel operations. Sleeper agents that assume the cover of someone killed in foreign lands but unknown to have died.
The argument was there is no example of a nation giving back lands taken in combat. So saying it doesn't apply means you didn't even want an answer, just wanted to complain about something. This is why the asking for clarification isn't what you are looking for. It looks to be a way to complain things didn't go the way you wanted to. How or why and don't want accept the facts shows this. There is no example statement gets answered, and then said it doesn't apply.
And what are land grants for nobility? The giving away lands to another family for services rendered. Some in perpetuity. Some even become nations.
By the way. Remember that the colonel was removed and the killer got his position. Oh yeah. So the social general got moved to the position from killing someone and being freed and promoted from ties... Yeah. No indication that it was returning that way.
If the FC moved to conquer the FRR, would be in complete violation of their way. The DC, CC, and FWL were long time foes. The FC saw the FRR as a way to slow down the DC, as it would cause the same effect for the people to slow down any DC advancement in that region. So in effect, it was a buffer for them as well. Not removing all their forces, but the FC could shift some to make the hit on the DC more lasting the next time they did it. This is a military concept.
If the Terran March was making so much money, why couldn't it hold off the CC? I can understand the FWL worlds wanting to rejoin the FWL, but the CC worlds would have been in, NO, had been, resistant to become CC again. It also needs to be asked why the region was so poorly defended when they were with the CC in the first place? And why the FWL didn't take the money making area as well. It would have went beyond revenge for Joshua, but it would have strengthened the FWL. Maybe even finally have the CC down for the count. Just a barrier for them.
Other then to give Andurien more power for taking worlds.
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Requiem
05/29/20 02:12 PM
1.158.188.5
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Nothing to do with Hanse? He was the one to originally start up the operation. It was something that was made near the end of his life. How is this not involving him?
Who gave the orders?
Victor was provided with information in a timely manner, in that Joshua was dying and there was nothing the Doctors could do to save him. So rather than return this child to his Father Victor gave the order for him to die 'alone' – so what did happen to his body? and then he substituted the real Joshua with another child – a child who must have gone through some kind of indoctrination to turn him into Joshua’s replacement. Then we must ask what happened to the real Joshua’s Doctor’s, Nurses and support staff who knew Joshua had died and had been replaced – what happened to them?
So who gave the orders for this act of utter barbarity? …… the buck stops with Victor and Victor alone. He gave the order, he ensured it was implemented. And when caught he must be held responsible for Thomas’ and the FWL’s righteous fury!
…. This clearly shows that Victor is unfit to rule!
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So a ruler doing what is needed in order to keep his people alive and free, is a horrible thing to do?
There are ALWAYS other political alternatives! In choosing this as the only way is unacceptable!
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So breaking up the FC wasn't a horrible thing to do?
Katherine was correct – however, rather than just succeed the Lyran half from the Fed Com she should have had the courage to demand Victor’s complete abdication from the FedCom Throne!
At this stage Victor should have had to abdicated (such was the severity of his crime)!
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Vanity is the word for it.
Far from it – Victor committed a diplomatic incident by allowing the death and replacement of a royal – a child with diplomatic immunity – a child of another realms royalty.
Accountability where is it at this stage? Abdicate Victor for you have proven that you are incapable of ruling the FedCom!
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The person that was acting as Joshua did it on a volunteer basis.
Joshua Marik (3046 or 48 to 57) – thus 9 or 11 years of age – show me a child of this age that can provide consent?
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It helped consolidate Thomas's power.
A matter that holds no relevance to the discussion, what matters is what occurred to Joshua and who ordered it.
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There were thousands of teams out looking for SL things.
Proof please – Book and Page number.
Question – how did Snord know about the location of Artwork, jewelry and many other artifacts that were found by him that have no military value?
Question – where is there a map of all the lost / dead worlds? where is there a map of all the 600+ systems of the former Terran Alliance from 2086-2315? Where is there a book that describes these 600+ systems – they must have had vast Jumpship manufacturing capabilities at the bare minimum – and if they had massive populations they should also have had all the trappings of a modern society? They also should have the remnants of the battles that occurred – that ultimately destroyed many of these systems – where are these descriptions?
So yes, as there are none I will make my own.
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The whole Galtor campaign arose from looking for an SL stash.
Didn’t Hanse start the battle by creating a fictitious rumor about finding a hidden Star League Cash – and it was only later on that the rumor become truth? Thus it was an accident? A one off occurrence that in no way proves the existence of any mass units that were created for the sole purpose of hunting Star League artifacts.
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Thomas went rogue, yet allowed WOB to find shelter in the FWL?
Prior to this did either the real or the fake obey the orders of the First Circuit of ComStar?
Did Thomas (fake) ensure that the Helm Memory Core copy the FWL had was destroyed – or did he ensure that it was used for the betterment of the FWL? and act that completely goes against the First Circuit’s orders.
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Thomas did get caught.
During the Jihad era …. And prior to this it was Victor who knew not Hanse (due to the Gemini issue)
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Remember that the colonel was removed and the killer got his position.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Felix_Blucher
Sorry, no this did not occur – Blucher remained in command of the 15th – Fisk was so badly injured at the end (by Archer) he returned to his home world – he reappears on his home world with the Irregulars on Odessa when Archer was attempting to recruit them for Victor.
So the professional remains in place the social officer was sent home never to be able to operate a mech again – his body crippled.
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If the FC moved to conquer the FRR, would be in complete violation of their way.
Really? The entire premise of all the succession wars is about real estate and who owns it – so how can this be considered against some mythical code.
In all reality the FRR was so small (when you take out the mythical idea that the Lyans would give up their worlds for the creation of the FRR) that the Lyrans and the DC could just step over the FRR and attack the DC / FedCom space.
So no slowing down of either of their militaries attacking each other at all!
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If the Terran March was making so much money, why couldn't it hold off the CC?
Really? What happens to any area of space when all the regular forces are removed and only the militia remain – whist at the same time every planet declares independence and Victor does absolutely nothing to bring them to heal?
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It also needs to be asked why the region was so poorly defended when they were with the CC in the first place?
Look at the number of forces each house has been assigned to at that stage? By now the game has become laughable. If the 20 Year Update was still in force this could never have occurred.
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it would have strengthened the FWL.
Correct. - but the point is mute Thomas Marik should have died in the explosion – thus Joshua should never have been born.
Isis Marik should be on the throne of the FWL at this time frame.
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Maybe even finally have the CC down for the count.
In all reality the CC should have been dead and buried by this time frame.
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Other then to give Andurien more power for taking worlds.
In all reality Andurien should have still been an independent state with the MoC.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/29/20 04:50 PM)
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ghostrider
05/29/20 11:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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Unlike Katherine, Victor did not have the staff killed. They were allowed to continue their work, on the premise they would not reveal anything.
Unfit to rule because he did what he felt was needed to keep the FC strong in the face of the clans. You suggest Katherine was more fit to rule, but the history or future says otherwise. The alt can do whatever, but it is NOT the only viable solution to the canon line. Then again, saying the developers had no experience with most of what they were doing, it seems someone is lacking the experience themselves. Some of the arguments brought up weren't even based on what was said. The facts were wrong, but then comprehensive wishes tend to do that.
The double solution was not the only way that Victor had thought on, but it was the most likely to buy time without costing so much more. It failed, as operations do from time to time. But then if you had read what was printed, you would know this.
You really think putting a double up to help keep the FC strong was a crime, yet ordering the full assassination of a ruling family isn't? Kidnapping children to force others to work with them isn't? Starving people that decide your stealing a throne doesn't make you the rightful ruler isn't a crime? That's right. Kill one person and your a murderer. Kill 10,000 plus and your a conquerer. One verses millions.
Diplomatic immunity? They were a child from an enemy realm. One that the LC portion would love to be rid of. They should have cheered him on for trying. Oh wait. That would be logical, as it would mean removing the FWL from the LC's side. Even help them remove the DC after the clans were dealt with. Maybe even helping remove the clans as well.
You ask how did Snord know where to find artwork and such? Maybe the clans intel agency that was working the IS at the time called Wolfnet? I am sure he had other intel working with him as well. Some was known to be in certain stashes the clans knew about and tracked it from there. Oh yeah. Snort was a clansman ordered to find the stuff and given resources, including funds to do so.
As for your great investigative reading, how about you actually read the books. There were a lot of expeditions sent out to find SL caches. Maybe the Black Boxes should be considered to begin with.
Better reread the Galtor book. There was a high probability that a SL cache was on Galtor. He blew it off as the DC own the world for generations. But decided to use that as a way to trap the DC forces. And what do you know. They found more then a few salvage wrecks from battles on the world. And with that, the crews were still looking for the base. They didn't expect to find one, but did.
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ghostrider
05/30/20 12:06 AM
66.74.60.165
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An area of space that has forces suddenly pulled out of it tends to employ mercs when they have the funds. Outreach is very close, so the merc center should have been busy. And with this, if those worlds hated the CC so badly, why would they need to be brought to heel? That makes it sound like they wanted out. The worlds that did were former FWL worlds and even then, it is questionable if they wanted Marik back.
So did the alt fix the issue of Katherine pulling out, as you said she would never do that? So the entire timeline beyond that is history. Well even before then, as the CC was obliterated. So why even complain about it now? It doesn't exist in the alt.
Given all the losses the CC had during the succession wars, and how small it was to begin with, it should never have seen 3025.
Andurien being an independent state with the MoC isn't being independent. It would require a lot of world be taken to connect them, and that would have those regions around them fighting to prevent that. And that includes FWL regions. Otherwise, that 'alliance' would be nothing more then St. Ives was. And the FWL would not tolerate that.
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Requiem
05/30/20 05:56 AM
1.158.188.5
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Unlike Katherine, Victor did not have the staff killed.
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There were a lot of expeditions sent out to find SL caches.
Proof required – Book and page number – otherwise these statements are just unsupported.
There is no point in discussing Operation Gemini – suggest agree to disagree and leave it at that! We will never see common ground on this topic.
Quote:
Snord’s Irregulars
Documentary materials that were taken with the exodus within vast computer core – to which he used to extract information as to possible sites containing items of interest.
All Houses should also have a vast information archives – and yet there is NO evidence of any house sending out their own units looking for lost treasure.
As for Galtor – even though there was a high chance of something being there – no one actually thought it could be true, that is until someone actually fell over it and found it. Thus the find was due to luck only!
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if those worlds hated the CC so badly, why would they need to be brought to heel?
Because they declared independence from all the Great Houses! – a situation that makes no sense whatsoever as sooner or later one of the Great Houses will send forces in to conquer these worlds.
The entire Chaos March is a questionable scenario! And can only be considered when the FS’s military has been reduced to 1/3rd its original size as per the 20 Year Update.
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Given all the losses the CC had during the succession wars, and how small it was to begin with, it should never have seen 3025.
It wasn’t until after the succession war did the CC’s military fall to such reduced numbers it becomes a primary target for destruction.
It will take until 3039 for the FS to recover from the Succession War and the Interdiction to be ready to kill of the CC once and for all.
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Andurien being an independent state with the MoC isn't being independent.
Refer to the FWL Map the IS Map plus the Canon information re this situation. It is more than achievable.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/30/20 12:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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Snord was part of the Dragoons, and part of their mission was to find and secure know caches and other SL sites. The story says he was so draw to the stuff, that he disobeyed orders in order to preserve some found near a battle. That is what caused his separation from the Dragoons.
With this, finding a new cache tends to be a lucky find. The easy ones were found and looted.
The Savanha Master came from one unit that found a cache. The stockpile of fusion engines he got, he made a combat vehicle with. Von Luckners are another unit that is found, as no manufacturers are known to make them.
Comstar is yet another that actively searches for them. They tend to take any found by smaller organizations as well.
Houses do send out their own units. But it seems more mercs are sent out, as they are more expendable as loyal house troops.
When the LC pulled their troops, and the FS couldn't get any, or not enough, troops there, they declared independence to hopefully avoid the coming invasions. Sadly, the entire situation was a successor war. A lot of worlds looked to expand their power by attacking other worlds. Which cause them to retaliate. Some formed pacts. In the end, the chaotic attacks and general lack of cohesion with all, gave the CC the chance to retake worlds. The FWL was organized and didn't have the issue the CC had with being low on troops. Then the CC sympathizers were egging on the infighting with the march.
With your love for numbers, the FS and FWL had more then enough to destroy them long before 2029. And looking at the border of the original CC during the original SL, not much changed, despite the pounding the CC had taken in the wars.
Oh yeah. Read the wiki on Hanse Davion. It states that even though he desired the position of first lord in the SL, he was smart enough to know that was not going to be possible, but hoped he could set up his descendants to take the position. That means the first lord title for himself, was not the top priority for his 'warmongering'.
The concept of a strong FS, meant the people would be safer from enemy incursions.
Also, on your own concepts, why would Hanse give away lands his troops would die on, to the LCs future leader? The first idea would be that his line would rule over it all. But that in itself is hollow.
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Requiem
05/30/20 06:45 PM
1.158.188.5
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Snord’s Irregulars – the only unit actively searching for last caches and lost SL artifacts.
ComStar – reacts to issues, they eliminate scientists they do not have an active group hunting for lost artifacts.
Houses and contracts to Mercenaries – when was the last time any contract came up for hunting lost artifacts?
The Chaos March
If you are not aligned with a great House you are just easy prey for whomever wants to conquer that area of space.
Victor had given up on this area of space by not sending in any available forces to restore order – it was inevitable that the CC would establish a plan to conquer the chaos march.
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With your love for numbers, the FS and FWL had more then enough to destroy them long before 2029.
Counter productive – the CC have shorter logistics chains – by the time the FS did destroy the CC their military would have been mauled – opening them up for a counter attack by the DC.
The only way to effectively destroy the CC is if both the FC and the FWL attack at the same time – and this is all but impossible as the FWL at this time could not get their act together.
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That means the first lord title for himself, was not the top priority for his 'warmongering'.
No this means that creating the correct stage so that Victor could finish the job was his top priority!
Thus Killing of the CC was the best step to achieving this! This then leaves the FWL and the DC where the FC have a 2:1 military gap when compared to the total of FWL and DC military units.
If handled correctly Thomas should have been receptive to a wedding between ISIS and Victor – thus leaving DC alone!
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why would Hanse give away lands his troops would die on, to the LCs future leader?
Your creating an alliance with the Lyrans – this will require a degree of give and take – plus Hanse did make a promise of the CC when handing his slice of their wedding cake to his new wife ….
The former CC now conquered by the new FC belongs to the Lyran part of the FC state.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/31/20 03:36 AM
66.74.60.165
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Amazing what the wiki has to say about Katherine and Victor. Wow. It basically says what I have been saying for a long while. Katherine was not a ruler you wanted to have.
She became an ally of Ryan Steiner and Galen Cox's lover. She then contracted an assassin to kill her mother, which he did by means of a bomb in 3055.
Archon-Prince Victor instituted Operation Doppelganger, a plot originally hatched by his father to replace Joshua with a double. Victor never planned on using the double as a ploy to institute a pawn into the succession of the Free Worlds League, he simply wanted to be sure that the needed refit packages would continue to flow into the Federated Commonwealth.
During her reign as Archon, Katherine reorganized the administrative divisions of the realm, allowed "social generals" to make something of a comeback (thanks in part to her willingness to promote individuals based on political orthodoxy as opposed to military competence), cashiered many officers who opposed her ascension, and clamped down on individuals who protested against her rule.
Katherine then set up another deal with Sun-Tzu Liao. In exchange for keeping her troops out of his war to reclaim the St. Ives Compact, Sun-Tzu supported Katherine in her bid to succeed him as First Lord.
Katherine used whatever means necessary to attain power. Rather than rely on military acumen as most of her family did, Katherine chose to build an image as a peacemaker in direct contrast to her soldier brothers, an image that she shed once she joined Clan Wolf. She wielded assassination as a political tool and was responsible for the deaths of Melissa Steiner, Omi Kurita, and Morgan Kell's wife Salome Ward, and also ordered an attempt on George Hasek II. She continually sought more and greater power and craved power for the sake of having it. Her internal monologues in the novels seem to indicate that she genuinely believed herself to be the most suited of her family to rule, although it seems likely much of this belief was self-rationalization. Katherine appears to have little actual care for anyone other than herself; even the men she professed love for, she was willing to discard or sacrifice in her drive for power. She also demonstrated distinct signs of pettiness and cruelty, regularly using her nations' resources to persecute anyone she deemed an enemy. This started with political opponents, but eventually came to include those staying neutral in the conflict between she and Victor, and even those she deemed "insufficiently loyal" (i.e., who supported her but harbored reservations regarding her policies). As she progressed on her pursuit of personal power, she began to show greater and greater signs of megalomania, and she found it difficult to maintain her image as a peacemaker.
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ghostrider
05/31/20 03:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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The ComStar Explorer Service or Explorer Corps was formed by Primus Adrienne Sims in 2959 to publicly chart and catalog the worlds beyond the Periphery, but covertly to locate lost Star League caches and Kerensky's lost Exodus fleet for ComStar's benefit. In 2982 the ECV Fortitude and Discovery set out on a 1,600 light year trip to the Orion Nebula.
Guess you got this one wrong as well. Comstar DID look for SL caches. Which is probably how they got so many mechs,
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Requiem
05/31/20 07:57 AM
1.158.188.5
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Comparison …
Victor is not a ruler you wanted to have.
Operation Gemini is never mentioned, where he allowed the death of Prince of a Realm who was in his care to achieve his political ambitions and when discovered resulted in a war.
He did not protect a section of his realm when it attempted to break away (Chaos March).
He continually spent more time in the field rather than governing his people from the Capitol world (Napoleonic Tendencies) – and as a consequence he did not have the intelligence unit he required to keep tabs on the universe and everyone of importance within it.
He utilized a captured assassin to enact his personal vengeance - rather than using one of the states assassins. (Inept decision made more with hie heart than with his head).
By removing the security detail from this assassin he was able to escape and as a consequence this assassin killed the love of his life (which makes him partially responsible).
He was supposed to prepare his people for the second war with the Clans – during the 15 years of peace – and yet he did absolutely nothing when it came to rebuilding his military for this purpose.
His meddling allowed Sun-Tzu to become First Lord of the Star League ….
He has a ‘me first’ attitude when it comes to his choice of lovers – rather than thinking of what was best for the realm,
He entered into a personal relationship with the daughter of his most mortal enemy. (of which he sired an heir with her).
Due to his personal actions with Omika his Duke of the Draconis March did not trust him and was actively plotting insurrection to put his brother Peter on the throne. (Of which could have destroyed the FS from within!)
Rather than protect his realm he decided to leave the Inner Sphere for over a year (Huntress) – and as he did not adequately protect his youngest sister (Yvonne) from his oldest sister (Katherine) he lost his realm to her.
He started a civil war that decimated the Lyran and Suns military allowing the way for the Blakist forces to enact a devastating ‘Jihad’ throughout the IS.
He did not allow Katherine a fair trial – and just gave her to the clans – an act that would have far reaching political issues and proves he has no regards for law.
At the end of the Civil War he started he did not provide the evidence to the people of both the FS or the LA as the guilt of his sister Katherine. Thus how can anyone believe his reasons for starting the war if he did not provide the proof? Thus for many his actions have no validity and for all time people will debate why he did what he did? A great way to rule when you do not trust the people you are supposed to serve and make their lives better.
He allowed the Federated Commonwealth to be permanently dissolved - and because both his brother and sister were both basket cases both realms suffered for their inept rule – even in 3150 both realms are suffering due to this inept decision.
He made no comment when his bother gave Throne away to Adam – rather than defend the rights of his nephew as the legitimate heir to the Lyran State – a completely illegal act on the part of both his brother and Adam!
He allowed Stone to create his little empire which cause more harm than good.
Oh yes Victor is a wonderful ruler ….
At least Katherine understood how to rule as she is a true Machiavellian, Victor was completely incompetent from beginning to end when it came to anything that was not related to the military.
ComStar Explorer Service or Explorer Corps – and within the IS? They are actively trying to work out what happened for Kerensky as they realize He and his decedents are a threat to ComStars Primary Goal: to Turn the IS into Blakean Theocracy.
Thus they tried to follow the breadcrumbs left by the exodus fleet ….
Though there is one question – why didn’t they start their search where Kerensky exited the IS?
What where they really looking for within the periphery above the Lyran / Draconis space? Did someone forget where Kerensky existed the IS?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/31/20 08:08 AM)
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ghostrider
05/31/20 12:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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Allow the death? There was no choice. Joshua was dying wiether or not anyone wanted it. So instead of having a brain dead child on life support for the rest of is life, which he would never again see the FWL, they let him die. It was not something like beating him to death or some other form of torture. Not even Katherine has the power of death to have prevented it.
Keep grasping for straws. The use of a non state assassin for personal gains? Melissa and Omi sound familiar? Oh yeah. It was the assassin Katherine hired. Running with a 'state' one could be traced easily or even discovered before the job was done.
Also, the state ran fine with him in the field. He had people in position to get him information he needed to act upon. It isn't like Katherine went out for several months to find help, with the Wolves of all people. The very ones that continued to occupy FC/LC/LA worlds. As stated by you, they could not be allowed to continue to do so. Hmmm....
With this, a leader does make choices with their hearts in stead of pure logic. This choices made like this are what defines a leader. The logical, though immoral choice of say a virus outbreak would be to quarantine the area, even if it means all there die, which maybe be due to starvation or even bombing everything living. Hammer Down protocol I want to say the name of it is.
Another half fact? The assassin did not kill Omi due to the assassins personal vendetta. Katherine paid him. And the security detail wasn't removed, the assassin killed the ones around him and escaped. I believe he was also the Dancing Joker, which killed the Crater Cobras as well as several people on the one world, including the governor.
Another half truth statement. Meddling did not happen. He decided to deny Katherine the chance by voting for Sun Tzu. He was the last to vote, and didn't even talk with the others about it before hand. So where is the meddling? No back room deals. No bargaining for it.
Rebuilding the industries was one of the first steps. This includes more ship yards and such. Which Katherine ended up using to take out forces that were not fanatical towards her. And the reformed SL went after the clans before the end of the truce and removed the clans invasion plans at that era of time. I would figure he would have started with others, had he had the political backing to do so. The FWL only agreed to it, as it was the DC, which mean the worst offenders, the Jaguars, were the target. Had it been the Falcons, I doubt they would have allowed it. The Bears would probably have been agreed upon, had Katherine not seized the throne.
Like Katherine taking Vlad as a lover was a good choice? And that could be said of Omi, as it wasn't a pressured relationship to get together. But in this case, Victor's impulsiveness did create issues. But had they been able to wed, it would have destroyed the game balance, and allowed the IS to remove the clans as well as form a more permanent Star League. If not for Katherines meddling, that may well have happened. And yes. She was actively making sure they could not even think of going that far.
Oh yeah. Didn't Katherine's child by Vlad destroy the LA?
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ghostrider
05/31/20 12:33 PM
66.74.60.165
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I liked this one. Did not give Katherine a fair trial. What sort of fair trial did she give to anyone that stood in her way. She removed them, with a lot of times permanently. She stole the throne so he was stupid not to just kill her. And give her to the clans? She wanted that instead of being held in a comfortable house arrest. And with this, Vlad was going to start another war that he could not afford to fight at this time. The LC would have been destroyed at that time, as well as possibly reigniting the clan push into the IS.
He is partially at fault for not realizing Katherine's ambition, and Yvonne suffered for it.
Best recheck the time line on the civil war. It has started before he agreed to leave it So like it or not, it was going before he got into it. The only 'bad' thing with him getting involved is it stopped Katherine from ruling until she dies. So if that is the horrible pain inflicted, there is something wrong with the outlook here.
The proof of the civil war was the fact that she 'allowed' loyalists to attack and destroy others in the FC. She actually ordered some of them to teach the rest a lessen. Once the actual truth gets out, she was not the saint she wanted to be portraited as. Or what you are trying to do.
The FC was dissolving when Katherine started attacking her own people that did not drop to their knees and worship her. She drove the last nail in the coffin as she was trying to gain the power over the LC portion of it. It was not able to be fixed after that.
As he was no longer involved in the running of either realm, any statements of Adam being named as Archon would have been an outsider meddling with LA politics.
As time did not allow it, how are you so certain Victor would not have become the leader the FC needed? You keep trying to show all the flaws, yet none of them, even combined, was fatal without Katherine's pushing it. Had Melissa lived longer, she could well have taught Victor more of what he needed.
Now for starting to look for SL equipment and caches, it would be smart to try to follow the exodus trail, as they would probably have infighting going on, or just having to leave behind equipment in order to open up space for the people in the fleet. The idea of seeing if the SLDF was dead was a good idea as well. But this is trying to deflect from the fact Comstar WAS funding searches for SL bases. Even though it isn't necessary to have comprehensive reading abilities, this would also include inside the IS.
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Requiem
05/31/20 07:33 PM
1.158.188.5
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Allow the death? – Comprehension of statement – he used the death of a Prince of the Realm, whom was in his care, to advance his agenda rather than returning the dying child to his family – Can we say Max Liao? Can we say Richard III? On both yes we can ….
Keep grasping for straws. – Hardly, he should have ended his days within a Black site – this just shows Victors’ inexperience and his inability to make sound judgments – at this point he is acting more like a petulant child than the ruler of a realm.
If he wants someone dead then all he has to do is give the name and outsource it to his state team …..
the state ran fine with him in the field.- Really? Since when has a state ever run smoothly with its lord in the field? ….. How many documents requires his signature per day …. How many committee meetings must go slow because they need his imput prior to moving forward ….. How many budgetary issues now must be placed on hold because they heed his ratification …. Plus when reading the Warrior novels and Hanse and his intelligence operations – with Victor in the field how difficult does this make it for them (especially when this organization was involved in a shadow war with Comstar – thus if they use ComStar to keep Victor abreast via HPG they can now read all the messages (once decrypted) or they use Black Box tech. and now all the messages are slow and must be typed rather than in video format …..
The entire FC / FS Government requires a person on the Throne and definitely NOT playing Mechwarrior – didn’t Hanse tell Victor of his brother and what his fascination with being a MechWarrior would lead to?
Thus we have a ruler who wants to me a warrior and place his desires first before that of the state …. Oh yes he is a wonderful ruler!
a leader does make choices with their hearts in stead of pure logic. – The very bad ones yes they do!
Another half fact? The assassin did not kill Omi due to the assassins personal vendetta. - If Victor had not removed his original security chief do you think he ever would have been able to escape? The answer is NO – and once he escaped he could then accept new employment contracts – employment contracts he never could have accepted if he was locked away within a deepest darkest Black site or better yet with a bullet in his head! So yes, Victor really does not know what he is doing here.
Meddling did not happen. – Really? Did he or did he not sign the constitution of the Star League which enabled the First Lord to put SLDF military onto St. Ives? …. As stated previously where are the Lawyers? Victors inability to understand constitutional Law brought about how must stupidity? Plus it would have been far better to have Katherine as First Lord – extra work that would have kept her out of trouble where he could easily watch her …. Thus showing he lacks being devious to achieve a desired outcome. Not good in a ruler when his father was called “The Fox” for a very good reason – have a look at what his father Hanse did to his brother in Law – Michael Hasek in allowing him what he thought was his idea!
Victor can never be compared to that of his Father when in comes to being cunning and devious – Katherine can!
Rebuilding the industries was one of the first steps. – Have a look at the next TRO – how many were Omni and how many were single weapons desigh – and what was one of the main reasons why the IS lost so far – the Clans use Omni Tech? ….. incompetent ruler – The Quartermaster Corp puts out a tender with very specific guidelines as to what they want – guidelines that asked for old designs rather than modern designs – thus hobbling the military for the next 100 years – Incompetency on a scale as yet unseen by any rational military.
The decision to just attack the Jaguars – How is victor, the ruler of a vast realm, supposed to explain to his people that their military will be assisting the DC and not the LA? Really?????? As stated previously they is only ONE political solution the removal of ALL belligerent Clans, the freedom of ALL IS worlds – anything less shows that the leadership is completely lacking – they had 15 years to reform the military for this exact scenario and they wasted it! Ow yes Victor is a great leader!
Like Katherine taking Vlad as a lover was a good choice? – who within the IS knew of this alliance?
Victor and Omika were a known fact that was discussed openly upon every Rag Magazine within the IS (except DC).
So yes, how would the Sandoval’s of Robinson react to this news considering their pathological hatred of the DC?
Thus Victor is antagonizing his own Duke ….. when will he every reaise his happiness does not come into it when you are the Ruler of a Realm – The Realm must come first. Thus a political marriage to enhance the realm’s security is required …. Not a schoolyard infatuation!
Didn't Katherine's child by Vlad destroy the LA? – and who was Vlad’s father? ….. Victor Steiner Davion!!!!!!!
Did not give Katherine a fair trial …. As a ruler your laws must be seen by the people to be fair and above reproach …. A point that Victor completely ignored. He MUST go before the people (as he did when he layed out his reasons for starting the Civil War) and explain his evidence …. To do otherwise is just Victor stating that he is above the Law and he can do whatever he believes is right. Thus many would now think he is a Megalomaniac and a Tyrant! Great qualities in a leader of a realm?
Vlad was going to start another war that he could not afford to fight at this time. – It is his sister – He fights!
To do otherwise just proves that he is not fit to rule. He should have jsy shot Vlad dead on the spot and dumped his corpse at the foot of the Wolves Dropship – stating that he did not appreciate the request. In all probability the sa-Khan would have been grateful to be rid of him for his un-Clan like behaviour – thus she now Khan!
Thus proving that victor has no real sense of family honor.
He is partially at fault for not realizing Katherine's ambition, and Yvonne suffered for it. – Not partly …. Fully at fault, Yvonne is a basket case!
The only 'bad' thing with him getting involved is it stopped Katherine from ruling until she dies. – he was not attached to ComGuard he was exiled – if he wants to start a civil war then he must also take the Throne and reform the FC anything less shows that he is not ambitious …. And a lack of ambition is deadly in a ruler of a realm …. Another point in favor of Katherine as her ambitions were vast.
she 'allowed' loyalists to attack and destroy others in the FC. – Really? They revolted on their own first – she assigned units to put them down and WAS SEEN TO BE on the defensive – she and her forces were being attacked she was not the aggressor - so what was she supposed to do – orbital bombardments? … again the media shows that her hands are clean where as Victor and his cronies were the ones who initiated the Civil War for their own political agenda.
The FC was dissolving when Katherine started attacking her own people that did not drop to their knees and worship her. - Military Purges have been used for centuries to identify dissidents and remove them – thus stabilizing the realm in the long run. This is a valid political tool for centuries dating back to the time of the Greek States.
She drove the last nail in the coffin as she was trying to gain the power over the LC portion of it. It was not able to be fixed after that. - ……. Sorry no, I do not find any evidence to support this.
As he was no longer involved in the running of either realm, any statements of Adam being named as Archon would have been an outsider meddling with LA politics. – Really? Sorry but no no matter what he will always be a part of the FS and LA politics – even when he is dead and buried people will use his name to justify their political ambitions.
If he does not stand up for the right of law for his nephew – something he said he did with Katherine in starting the civil war when he was the CO of the ComGuard shows that he is a hypocrite – he is in the exact same position he has no choice but to put the interests of his nephew first ….
how are you so certain Victor would not have become the leader the FC needed? …. The majority of his supporters were expecting him to take the throne once again …. And both his brother and sister were both basket cases …. And any other scenario destroys the FC permanently!
Had Melissa lived longer, she could well have taught Victor more of what he needed. – Only if Melissa joined him on campaign and was willing to be carted around in his Mech for there is no way he was leaving the military to be with his Mother (something Katherine was doing very well!).
eave behind equipment in order to open up space for the people in the fleet. – this should have been worked out in advance prior to leaving the IS as weapons of war are not required (en mass) when you are going to start a massive new colony – civilian equipment is required not military!
Comstar WAS funding searches for SL bases. – Outside the IS, yes – as for within the IS this would have tipped their hand as to their grand plan to make the IS into one Blakean Theocracy. So no work within the IS – too dangerous if they get caught. Also how about the Great Houses – nil units assigned to looking for SL caches – unless they just fall over it.
…. this would also include inside the IS. – Proof please … book and page number ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/31/20 09:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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You do know that Joshua was dying in 3050-51? You know. Where the Dragoon meeting was going on? He lived 6-7 years longer then expected if he stayed within the FWL. And what did Katherine do? Send thousand to millions of people to their deaths by openly accusing Victor of this. But then the facts you have comprehended weren't correct. This is why understanding is beyond reach.
Now that you said it, the sending in a team to kill anyone he wants is wrong. If that were the case more then a few people would be dead, such as Theodore, Sun Tzu and Thomas to start with. Anyone that gives rise to speaking ill of him or his rule would be dead. Even Katherine couldn't just send assassins to take out her enemies, even though she did send a few. You claim Victor needed justification to remove his sister after she started acting like a tyrant, yet NOW they don't need anything? Oh yeah. Assassinations are ok, but putting a sibling under arrest isn't? Do you see the entire logic fail in this?
Yes. Please tell us how many documents have to be signed by him, instead of those he put in charge while out? And make sure you tell us how many documents Katherine signed in those months she went to the enemy(clans) to find help to remove her brother. Hanse dealt with intel reports because he was more into the intrigue then others. That is why he was able to do the entire 4th war set up without others knowing what was up. Victor tends to run as the straight forward warrior. There are more then a few times that isn't wise, as a ruler has to do things that aren't as straight forward. Katherine might have been a good ruler if not for the fact she didn't care about anyone but herself. So she took the attitude that she was a diety, and all should worship her or suffer.
Didn't Hanse tell him what everyone knows? Any combat, and in the cases of rulers, any time, can be your last breath. The fact that the IS was so fascinated by war made it seem like the best rulers were war heroes. He believed that by putting himself in harms way, he was protecting the people that served under him. Misguided or something else is possible, but in the end, that is how he believed.
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ghostrider
05/31/20 09:33 PM
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Bad rulers make choices with their heart? So instead of feeding the poor, he should send them all off into battle so they die instead of placing a burden on their realm? Maybe even take some of the enemy with them? Instead of going to a diner hosted by a noble, the ship he would use should not be sent to deliver food and other supplies to an area that was hit by a natural disaster? Sounds like Katherine's MO. I see why you think she is the greatest now.
Guessing real definitions don't exist. Meddling by casting his vote for someone KATHERINE put up for nomination is meddling? There was nothing done that could even remotely be considered meddling. There was no political favors changing hands. No back room deals. He was the last to vote. He choose Sun Tzu over his sister. How is that meddling? He did not encourage others to vote for Sun Tzu.
And you forget the backroom dealing Katherine had for Sun Tzu. She wanted to destroy Victor so badly, she made a deal that the LC would NOT interfer with his little war. Yeah. I can see where Victor was the bad guy here. Not Katherine for trying to set it up, nor leaving the St. Ives Compact to die without any sort of a legal fight.
How is Victor to tell his realm that the Star League had decided to hit the Jaguars, instead of the Falcons? He should have withdrawn from that farce at the moment that went into a vote. The entire FC should have just left the SL. But wait. Katherine didn't say oppose it. She was fine with it. It was the LC that was invaded, yet she did nothing. Hmmm.
Cunning is not the big reason someone should be a ruler. Otherwise, Max Liao should have been the First Lord years before he died. And Victor knew he was not able to even try to fill his father's shoes, so he didn't even try for this aspect. He left the intel for those that were trained for it.
At the time, Katherines affair wasn't known. When she went into the clans, everyone knew. And the forces of the clans involved knew.
When did Katherine lay out the evidence Victor killed his mother? Oh yeah. NEVER. Where was the loyalty to family when she had her mother assassinated? Everything and more you bring up can be said of the evil Katherine was doing. So keep showing just how poor of a leader she really is.
Where was Victor happy with not being able to marry Omi? They could not ever really get together after the Dragoon meetings. He kept from seeing her as it would destroy the FC. And antagonizing the dukes? What did Katherine do? Oh yeah. She tried to starve them out, as well as send in the military to take them down when the starvation wasn't working. Assassins were sent as well. Also, you said that a ruler can assassinate anyone they choose. So how is it you have to justify putting a relative in jail for usurping the throne, but yet can kill anyone you want with state snipers? The logic doesn't hold.
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ghostrider
05/31/20 10:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not sure where you got the information Vlad's father was Victor. Vlad was born before Victor was even alive. Vlad was also a crusader before the clans even got into the IS. So where is this information at? It is absolutely wrong.
What does not wanting a fight with the Wolves have to do with fighting his sister? The wolves came in after the fight was over.
Let's see. Victor was raised on Tharkadd entirely, while Katherine went between the two. It is doubtful Victor spent much time with Katherine, and that those watching her should have picked up on the fact she was power hungry. So where is it in real logic that Victor was a trained psychologist o find this out? And spending all that time in the field would have made it even more unlikely he could spot this.
The media spin suggesting the units that refused to acknowledge her as ruler says they were the attackers, when in reality, they were being destroyed by the 'loyalists'. She ordered her units to kill those that did not bend a knee. Where where their trials? Oh yeah. The truth would have come out, and that would have started showing Katherine's true agenda. So they had to be snuffed out quickly and quietly. Which didn't happen. So the civil war started brewing.
So complain about the lack of troops the FC has in the future, then look at your purge statement. Do you not see the outcome of such issues? Those that you purge do not just lay down and die, when you start shooting at them.
Of course you don't see Katherine being the one to destroy the FC. She only sabotagued everything she could to destroy him. By the time she got into a position to really do much, it was already too late to stop the split. The ploy worked to make people take sides, and a CIVIL war broke out. Where does this not suggest the FC was doomed to split apart? Very few civil wars end with a realm uniting.
Funny. His child would have had more right to the throne then Vlad's child. First born of the first born of the first born. The succession rites of history. Or did that some how get lost while you were pushing it? It doesn't support Katherine's child. As the clan trueborns don't get married, the child of Vlad's would not be legit to sit on the throne, if Victor's child isn't.
Victor could well have been taught by Melissa to become the leader people expected. Twisting the paragraph by making it sound as they were not related isn't going to work.
Victor asked his mother to stay on a while longer, as he felt like the clans needed to be stopped. Once that happened, he may well have settled down to run the state. But we will never know, since Katherine made sure that wouldn't happen. So in this case, yes. The writers did hobble the FC.
You mean the SL had all these ships fixed completely before they left the IS? That breakdowns never occurred in route before then? Simple virus making some ships unfit to continue, and would have to be destroyed? Even a misjump or failure in components you don't have parts for never happens? Leaving behind troublemakers doesn't happen? You want realism, but yet don't want it. Even exploration parties that could not return to the fleet before they jumped out would be another scenario. Not covering the right angles in things, it would seem.
Not sure why you think everyone knows what everyone else is doing all the time. Someone might see Comstar searching worlds? You mean the cover story they had wouldn't cover them searching worlds in secret? Or that anyone caught watching them disappears, and no bodies found, except around worlds in the deep periphery, where no one will ever go? The fact that they have their own jumpship fleets means they can go where and when they want. And until the book came out saying they existed, no one had every reported seeing those ships? Bad retcon or good stealth?
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Requiem
06/01/20 05:37 PM
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Reading on comprehending what is written …..
Joshua’s Death – who used his heath for his political ambitions by substituting the deceased child with another?
Where there are assassins there are also security details to keep them alive. That said it usually takes something really bad to request the assassin option. Loot at the IS history the assassin does not pop up all the time – proof of Ryan’s guilt was available – proof of Katherine’s involvement was not there!
So who is acting like a tyrant when he has no proof only the supposition of proof?
And who was never able to obtain proof – only supposition?
And who used that lack of proof to exile his sister to the Clans rather than put her on trial or at any time try to prove to the people of the IS the guilt of his sister as to the charges he leveled against her when he started the Civil War?
Where is the proof of Katherine’s Guilt? None to find thus how can we just believe what Victor said is the truth?
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Katherine might have been a good ruler if not for the fact she didn't care about anyone but herself. So she took the attitude that she was a diety, and all should worship her or suffer.
She is not Kali Liao so prove it!
When the majority of any ruler assumed the Throne of their Great House – did they remain with a military unit on the front line or did they return to the Capitol World and begin working for the best interests of their people?
For those that remained in combat what was their legacy?
For those who returned to the Capitol world what was their legacy?
On the whole – those that returned completed more and made their realm more prosperous ….
Comprehension – Yes bad rulers make bad choices with their heart rather then with their head – allowing emotion into the equation just clouds your decision making as a ruler. As for the rest of this paragraph - sophistry!
Comprehension – The Star League Articles of Association – how can they allow anyone to use the SLDF to conquer a rival realm (or an area of space) whist you are the First Lord at the same time – not once but twice …… and who signed those documents into existence? ….. so, where are the Lawyers?
The entire premise of attacking just one Clan is as believable as putting a cat flap in an elephant house! This is really an all or nothing situation which was completely lost to all involved.
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Cunning is not the big reason someone should be a ruler.
Beg to differ, being cunning is a prerequisite for the job if you want to keep it more than 5 minutes or you want to get anything of any meaning done without becoming the lapdog of someone in the shadows pulling the strings.
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He left the intel for those that were trained for it.
As the ruler once the information is presented the decision as to what to do next is theirs alone! So how good id that information going to be if it is going to take who knows how long to reach you (as the ruler) and at the same time ComStar gets to read all these security missives because you want to remain with your unit on the front lines?
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Where was the loyalty to family when she had her mother assassinated?
Prove it – there is no proof that any court of law would convict. If there was Victor would have used it, it is only circumstantial. As a citizen of the FC (and not as someone reading the books with access to all comings and goings) where is the proof – This is just taking all the available information and making it fit – so from the point of view of a person on the street without any access to this information how do you believe Victor when he has never allowed the information to come to light and all he will say on the subject is trust me I know …. And then he kicks his sister into the Clans, the most hated group of individuals until the arrival the Jihad era – Look at how this is viewed by the woman / man on the street first before making wild accusations.
The facts are …. Victor NEVER supplied proof to Katherine’s Guilt as there was never any to be found – Second, Victor did hand over his sister to the clans in order to exile her for life ….. so how are the optics of this to pan out when you are just an ordinary citizen?
Victor and Omika – Being the ruler of a Realm is not about being happy – it is about putting aside your own personal wants and needs for the betterment of the Realm.
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She tried to starve them out
Proof required – when did Katherine try to starve out her Dukes? And when did she attack her dukes other than when they declared for Victor? …. There is none!
Vlad – thinking of Alaric Wolf.
The Wolves demand Katherine be handed over to them ….
Victor obliges and gives her up ….
What is the optics of this move to the people of the LA and the FS? How will they take it? …. One sibling exiling another to the most hated and despised society within the IS …. Of course there is never going to be any blow back for this transgression!!!!!!!! (comedy and humor)
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So where is it in real logic that Victor was a trained psychologist o find this out?
As stated previously – one of the attributes of a good ruler is the ability to read people – determine friend from foe – determine who wanted to use you …….
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Those that you purge do not just lay down and die, when you start shooting at them.
And yet a purge could also re referring to a transfer to a dead end position within the military …. Until they retire out of the military ….
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Very few civil wars end with a realm uniting.
American?
And Katherine did both – she broke the real apart and she re-forged it – It took Victor and his declaration of Civil War - and his decision to put his remaining two siblings on the thrones to permanently destroy the FC. So it was Victor not Katherine who ultimately destroyed the FedCom.
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Vlad's child
Alaric was created in a test tube and an iron wormb – don’t you think that every House would have made these children unable to be part of the rules of succession? Otherwise I could just go and get a piece of DNA from a past ruler and create my own legitimate ruler via DNA. The rules that allow clan warriors to comete for a blood name also ensure they can never be part of a line of succession within the IS.
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You mean the SL had all these ships fixed completely before they left the IS?
No, but every cargo deck on every Dropship should have included everything that was necessary to establish a new colony for the entire population of everyone who was leaving with Kerensky - and as for military equipment – only the barest minimum should have been taken with them.
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Not sure why you think everyone knows what everyone else is doing all the time.
You can bet that everyone of importance is being watched by every other spy agency …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/02/20 02:14 AM
66.74.60.165
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It seems you don't understand the real way things went down. Katherine was not EXILED to the clans. She WILLINGLY went with Vlad, and even was happy about it.
Other then expanding her power base, what did Katherine really do for the LC? And who benefitted from depriving the LC of Melissa, one of the most loved leaders of the FC? Tore apart the LC and millions if not billions of lives just for her pleasure? Not Victor.
I want to say the DC leaders name and Kinjiri or something like that, who was with his front line almost the entire time he ruled, during the succession wars. He was the one to order the Kentares massacre if I remember right. So it isn't the first time one did so. A few others were in the front lines a lot of the time as well. Doing what they thought was necessary. As you have the entire history of the IS memorized, this should not be a shock to you.
Now there is something that rings true. Most of those that returned to the capital. NOT ALL. A few rulers were better off not returning, as they had no interest in the day to day operations.
To expose Katherine would be exposing the government and how they operate. Katherine paid for the assassination with the LC tax payers money. Worthless land sold to the government for highly inflated prices. What would that do to the peoples trust? Oh yeah. Not a concern.
Where is the people's welfare concerned with Katherine courting not one, but two enemies of the FC in order to destroy her own family? And yet again. The only time Victor was with Omi was during the Dragoon meeting, and I want to say one time that he saved Hohiro. So where did he put his concerns before the state? It isn't like he was plotting the downfall of the FC like Katherine was.
And the actual wiki page says Katherine did not care for anyone but herself. That is the general concensus a majority of the players agree upon. So far, only you have said otherwise.
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ghostrider
06/02/20 02:28 AM
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You really need to read the actual history of the game before spouting off anymore. Duke Sandavol of the Draconis march had Katherine start trying to starve out the people as he was not bending his knee to her. The ENTIRE MARCH was starting to have issues with this. So no proof?
Before the Civil war, she also started trying to remove George Hasek. Ordering units to 'garrison' worlds that had units on them already, then tried to remove those very units, even though they were house units, not FC. The entire issue with Kathil and the ship yards is one such example.
You don't like starting at the beginning with a lot of the complaints, as they would not even be written if you did. The FC was destroyed by Katherine, as she was trying to destroy it before Victor even agree to Gemini. The personal gain he would get is getting equipment for his people to continue to resist the clans. You want the alt to have him try to replace Thomas, that is fine. But trying to suggest canon screwed up, or that Victor was this evil leader for canon isn't. So step one. Had Katherine not even started causing issues in the FC, things would not have gotten to the point of the civil war. It started without him. That is a pure fact. Katherine started it. Again. Conspiring with enemies of the FC in order to do so, BEFORE Victor got into the civil war. I am only going by what is actually printed.
So the 4th war, and the surprise invasion of the CC was found out by the other houses? That Katherine went to the clans to find help in destroying the FC, which would hurt Victor? Being watched, and actually gaining intel that is good isn't the same thing. And for most, the spies are hard pressed to get into certain areas, much less get anything from it.
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Requiem
06/02/20 05:12 AM
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It seems you don't understand the real way things went down.
I agree, being taken up the ramp to the guillotine is no way against your will! (satire)
Katherine was exiled by victor – this is in no way with her consent – Vlad has effectively removed her form the political board. The only way she can return now is if one of her supporters rescues her and assists with a coup for her to once more take the throne.
What did the Romans ever do for us …. Errr., sorry wrong show (satire once again)
Really, she didn’t become so popular with the Lyran people just because of her good looks and her last name …. Rebuilding the economy, military and nobility of the Lyran people took time … something the Lyran people loved her for … or was this point lost along the way?
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the Kentares massacre
Good example, When Minoru Kurita (DCMS Coordinator) was on the front lines a FS sniper killed, what he believed at the time was a DCMS Colonel, upon being notified of this event his son Jinjiro Kurita ordered the massacre … thus giving the FS the rage to strike back and reverse their gains ….
If Minoru was within the palace none of this would have happened …. The Reversal of fortune of the FS in beating back the DCMS as well as the massacre itself …..
Thus showing a leader has no place on the front lines, especially when his son believes the idea of genocide is a normal military tactic …..
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Katherine paid for the assassination with the LC tax payers money.
Speculation …. Was never proven, Victor was never able to obtain definitive proof on this point ….
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The only time Victor was with Omi was during the Dragoon meeting
Thus how did he get her pregnant before he departed the IS to Huntress? …. As it was on this day that Omika tried to tell him, but he was too preoccupied to pick up on what she was trying to tell him …. Victor’s not the brightest when it comes to this ……
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And the actual wiki page says Katherine did not care for anyone but herself. That is the general concensus a majority of the players agree upon.
Then she must have been a great actress …. You do not make a sizeable political block without being sensitive to the needs of your supporters.
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Duke Sandavol of the Draconis march had Katherine start trying to starve out the people as he was not bending his knee to her. The ENTIRE MARCH was starting to have issues with this.
Book and page number – think about the number of Jumsphips required to do this – there is no way she could keep such an overt move hidden from the people of the IS – so no this is not possible – as she is into covert moves!
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George Hasek and Kathil
She is the leader of the military - unless these units receive a direct order by her to leave – they stay put! Units must obey the chain of command and she is the at the very top.
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The FC was destroyed by Katherine
Sorry this statement is not totally correct …. Victor has to accept his share of the blame for this ….
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Had Katherine not even started causing issues in the FC, things would not have gotten to the point of the civil war.
If Victor was a half-way decent leader it would have been impossible for Katherine to begin plotting for the throne – but as he was locking in intelligence and wisdom it should have been easy to remove him.
As stated many times – Katherine only had to kill Victor to take the throne – so why all this stupidity is beyond anyones understanding – other than t create a story with next to nil validity.
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spies
Yes I agree spies are absolutely useless! (satire)
Snow fire was absolutely useless in assassinating the DC coordinator. (satire)
The son of Quintus Allard – Justin Xiang and Alex Mallory were absolutely useless during the 4th Succession War (satire)
It comes down to access to the right person at the right time ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/02/20 12:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still want to cling to the idea that Katherine was exiled? Fact: there was no order for her to go with Vlad when he showed up. She was a prisoner that was about to be put in her 'jail cell' when he did. She did NOT refuse to go with him, and was even overly willing to go with him. As with anyone joining the enemy wholeheartedly, she would not be allowed to return. Victor screwed up by allowing her to live. But then he was not the murderer Katherine tried to portrait him as, though she would have pulled the trigger on him, even if it was broadcast live. Also, it was a get out of jail free scenario.
The Kentares massacre could very well have still happened. Minoru may still have ordered it, but not been there to watch, which is why they were ordered put to death by sword. The DC government ran fine with him in the field. Pissing off the FS more then the invasion was otherwise wasn't a good choice. And the DC is far stricter on what those put in position to do things can actually do.
They had the proof. Otherwise, how would they know it happened. The issue with it was no court would convict on it, as there is enough ways to make the evidence look manufactured. It was there, just the judicial system would allow it to be distorted. Especially when Katherine was already in power in the LC. She would have shut down the case before it even saw the light of day. She was the ruler of the LC in all but name at his point.
The conception probably happened when he returned Hohiro from his capture. I would have to find my books and reread the time frame here, but can't get to them yet.
Katherine used the tried and true way of preventing supplies from reaching the people that needed it. An issue with the jumpships either mechanical or went to the wrong place. It seemed to happen a lot around this time, and the people didn't question it outside of the areas that had it happen. Again. This is printed in the books.
The FC is set up so March leaders have some leeway to move troops around. The duke had the world secured, and the forces Katherine had there, would have been better served to garrison other worlds. The Duke has the authority to send them off world. Might not be to where he wants, but off world.
Yeah. Victor is to blame. He should have smothered her when she was born, thus preventing her from doing any of this.
I did not say spies were useless. I said they do not have magical powers that let them find out everything. If this was true, there would be no such thing as a secret bunker or manufacturing plant. Every unit in the game would be known as to where each is and the exact count. Also, they would have known things like who was doing what. There could be no such thing as blindsiding anyone, as what happened with the 4th war, or the assassination of Melissa, or even the entire clan invasion. And Katherine would never have gotten into a power position if they could find out everything.
Also social generals would never become generals, and even have to rise thru the ranks the old fashion way. Serve for years, showing they were better then the rest. Oh yeah. Operation Doppelganger would not have happened. So the entire premise of the 4th war would not have happened. Hell, the SL would not have fallen as they would have known Amaris was going to assassinate the first lord.
Wow. The terran alliance would have known the colonies would revolt,.. The entire history of the game would be changed and here would be no such things a diversions in the game.
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Requiem
06/02/20 02:17 PM
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Fact: there was no order for her to go with Vlad when he showed up.
Fact, did anyone ask for Katherine’s consent?
Fact, Victor had her removed physically from her cell, had her marched out and then just handed her over to Vlad (like a piece of meat) when he did not have to – he could have said no – he considered the idea and HE decided to hand her over!
Did anyone ask her if she wanted to become part of Clan Wolf? No, no one asked her! Victor and his cronies just handed her over with no ‘by your leave’.
She never had a choice in the matter!
Question: Where and when is the Trial scheduled for Katherine as to her many crimes? Nil scheduled – why? Victor was never able to obtain any evidence!
By handing over Katherine all he is doing is removing a political enemy!
These are all facts when you look at from the point of view of the average Lyran and Suns citizen.
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The Kentares massacre could very well have still happened.
With the absence of the DC Coordinator there is no justification for the massacre –no snipers bullet – no massacre – as there is no justification for the order - it is as simple as that!
Which proves leaders should remain on their capitol worlds!
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They had the proof. Otherwise, how would they know it happened. The issue with it was no court would convict on it,
Either you have the proof and go to a Court case or you don’ t! No Court case no proof!
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She was the ruler of the LC in all but name at his point.
No – she was in chains at this point and Victor decided to take her all the way from where she surrendered – New Avalon – all the way to the border with Clans. Of which is a very strange idea by Victor when you joint out this is the heartland of Katherine’s political power base and makes no sense what so ever. A closer and more secure prison would have been in the boondocks of the Federated Suns on any border world adjacent to periphery space.
But that is not logical! (satire)
Sarna has Kitsune Kurita – b.3063 – Incorrect
November 3059 – is when the IS forces followed fleeing Clan Smoke Jaguar forces to the Clan’s Homeworld of Huntress.
Omika tried to inform Victor that she was pregnant at this stage – 9 months later – so some time close to July 3060 (at the latest) is when Victor’s and Omika’s child was born.
Conception therefore sometime within September / October 3059 –
However as from 10 August Victor was n Schuyler fighting the Jaguar Regulars
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This is printed in the books.
Then – Book and Page Number.
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The FC is set up so March leaders have some leeway to move troops around.
This is not an absolute – the chain of command via a direct order from the First Princess can veto any request of a Duke.
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I did not say spies were useless.
It all comes down to each individual spy and the access they have. Remember it was a FWL spy that broke the news of Victors swap of Janos Marik for the fake Janos Marik.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/03/20 12:16 PM
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Katherine was more then eager to go with Vlad, as well as shot up a fist in victory, as it meant she would not be a prisoner in the LA. She did not say ANYTHING about not wanting to go, and you know she would have, if she didn't want to go. But I don't have my books on me, so can't say where it is at.
And Katherine had a choice. She chose to go to the clans, and manipulate Vlad, trying to do anything to destroy Victor.
Let's see. The response to the assassination of his father caused Minoru to order the massacre. Do you think he wouldn't have ordered it from Luthien? This would be breaking with what we knew of the character. It would not have been so bad, had he been in Luthien, as he watched as many be put to the sword as he could. It may also have not been the turning point for the FS in that invasion.
Still not reading the paragraph the statements are in. Katherine was already ruling the LC at the time of the evidence of her killing her mother was finally found. How was she in chains at this point? Using this information would have opened up a can of worms the government did NOT want opened. It would expose the inner workings of things like land grants and such, which would show all how the rich continue to make money illegally, thru politics.
Why don't you take your comprehensive reading and actually read the books, not just skim them. And while doing so, read the actual words printed, not the faerie tale of the accusations that just aren't true for canon.
Like this one.
An agent from the Capellan Confederation discovered the ruse and Chancellor Sun-Tzu Liao soon brought the news to Captain-General Thomas Marik.
It wasn't someone from the FWL that found it out, but a spy from the CC. This is yet another statement under the Katherine wiki entry. If I remember right, the FWL checked the results with their own agent.
And I am going to assume the naming of Janos was a typo. It was Joshua that was replaced.
And yet another gem.
I don't want him neutral, I want him dead. I want you to destroy my brother and everyone that follows him. Then I want you to round up everyone that supports him and make an example of them, too!
”
— Archon Katherine Steiner-Davion, giving orders to Field Marshal Simon Gallagher and intelligence advisor Richard Dehaver, September 7, 3063
Edited by ghostrider (06/03/20 12:19 PM)
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Requiem
06/03/20 03:08 PM
101.185.79.245
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Katherine was more then eager to go with Vlad,
Sorry but NO this Statement is incorrect – Katherine did not want to go with Vlad. There is no future for Katherine unless she can escape and return!
Vlad threatened war.
And Victor just gave her to Vlad
EndGame – Page 272 – 273 – There is not one piece of dialog by Katherine in this entire setting - only Victor believing he saw a flicker of triumph in her eyes at Vlad’s request.
But it is quite clear Victor realized that Katherine would suffer through a Clan Warrior training program – and from then on she was forgotten about until Alaric came on the scene at Victor’s funeral.
Let me ask this – As an average citizen (who knows nothing other than that which was on the news vids) from either the LA or the FS all you know about the Civil War is Victor wins on New Avalon and then transports her all the way back to Arc Royal and from there he just gives his sister to the enemy of the IS for the past 17 years – whom you have been told is the greatest enemy the IS has – and you remember the Star League was formed with the sole purpose of dealing with these Clans.
Rather than put his sister on trial and put his case of Katherine’s perfidy before the people he just hands her over with not one shot fired. Then you remember that Arc Royal is Morgan Kell and his son is the Wolf Khan in Exile – What are you supposed to make of this? Of all the places Victor could have taken Katherine he took her directly to Arc Royal and from there she was immediately given to the Khan of the Wolves. Then you realize that this means that there will be no Trail whatsoever victor has effectively gotten rid of his sister by throwing her to the wolves (the enemy of the IS).
Time to realize this little drama Victor has played out on Arc Royal can but have one interpretation – Victor has made sure that by handing over Katherine to the Wolves there will be no trial, he will never provide the evidence of his sister’s guilt – it will all be covered over – so how are you an average citizen supposed to take this? This is cover up – victor used his connections with Arc Royal and the Wolves in Exile to be rid of his political enemy rather than sully his hands and kill her outright!
All that is really known is that Victor has created the greatest legal cover up of all time in regards to his sister!
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The response to the assassination of his father caused Minoru to order the massacre.
If Minoru was still on Luthien there was no snipers bullet – so there is no massacre!
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Francesca Jenkins
Is the name of the spy who broke the news as to Joshua’s death.
Bred for War – Page 377 – “This further suggests that the Word of Blake sent the message to Sun-Tzu’s agents to create an incident to set off a war.” … and on Page 378 ….”Which means Thomas Marik isn’t Thomas Marik”.
So to be absolutely accurate yes she was Capellan – however the activation code came from the Word of Blake …. And at the same time Victor was able to prove Thomas was not Thomas.
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I don't want him neutral, I want him dead. I want you to destroy my brother and everyone that follows him. Then I want you to round up everyone that supports him and make an example of them, too!” — Archon Katherine Steiner-Davion, giving orders to Field Marshal Simon Gallagher and intelligence advisor Richard Dehaver, September 7, 3063
All this proves is that Katherine is purging her enemies – quite normal in the scheme of things.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/03/20 06:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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You claim Katherine never ordered the death of anyone. So the statement of not wanting him neutral or dead proves that statement wrong. And there are witnesses to this as she ordered Gallagher and Dehaver in the same office at the same time. And this was an order to kill Victor, her brother and ruler of the FC she was trying to usurp.
Might need to look at the actual military. Minoru was not there to fight, but to survey the area they had just taken. Also, it is a moral booster for the troops to have their leader show up. Something that does happen in the military, though in todays world, it tends to be a safe area, but not always. It also depends on the leader.
And still not going to see the fact the government runs on it's own, when you give people the authorization to do things. Otherwise the LA wouldn't have run when she went to the clans for help. So in this case, all or nothing. You can't say Victor couldn't, but Katherine could. No apples and oranges here. Either it runs without them, or both were the 'bad' guy.
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Requiem
06/03/20 08:06 PM
101.185.79.245
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You claim Katherine never ordered the death of anyone.
No, the original question related to whether Katherine used dropships as a means of bring her Dukes to heel – by causing internal supply issues she could keep them on a short leash.
However in this case this is not the point. Check the above date – September 3063 – in regards to this statement – then put it in its true historical context in that by September 3063 the FedCom Civil War is in full flight where dozens of battles on dozens of worlds are occurring. Therefore it is quite normal for the leader of one side to order the purge of all dissident forces on the other side of the civil war.
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Minoru Kurita
He accompanied the 6th Sword of Light to Kentares IV – with his Battlemaster.
He was shot and killed in August of 2796
(Sarna Wiki Page – 2796 needs to be fixed as it has Minoru being killed on the 14th September and the massacre starting on the 11th September)
The Kentares massacre begins mid September 2796
Still does not change the point if Minoru had remained within his command bunker on the Capitol World, rather than accompanying the 6th to Kentares – he never would have been shot by a sniper – the massacre would never have occurred!
If his going with the 6th was a moral boost with the troops then their guard goes with them to secure the area for the Coordinator. So where are the personal Guard?
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And still not going to see the fact the government runs on it's own, when you give people the authorization to do things.
Really? - when there is a system that does not require a ruler then why have a supreme dictator? Better to just get rid of them and allow the government to run in a more efficient manner if this is the case.
When working within a government there is always one person in control who has the ultimate say in how things are going to occur. Sorry but this statement cannot be considered plausible.
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Otherwise the LA wouldn't have run when she went to the clans for help.
Victor to Huntress and back?
Assigning a deputy ….. Nondi Steiner (just as victor used Yvonne) … or how about the Head of the Estates General whilst she is incommunicado?
No comment on Katherine going with Vlad?
No comment with regards to Francesca and her spy mission?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/04/20 03:06 AM
66.74.60.165
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More then a few posts back, you said Katherine never ordered the assassination of anyone. Trying to change it to the use of supplies to starve out the dukes isn't going to work. And according to the wiki, Skye did try to revolt during the civil war. This means the concept of them loving Katherine is false. The Grey Death Legion is the ONLY thing that kept the rebellion from going anywhere, as they tried to secure the Defiance factories.
Guess your comprehensive reading skills did not read that he ordered his guards to hang back while he went to see a place to relax, and admire the terrains beauty. They were there, just not close enough to him. Thought a sniper shot tends to negate that anyways.
One person does not run the government, unless a reagent. The ruler doesn't have absolute power like you want to believe. They have to follow the laws as well, though some get away with not doing so for a while. And you answered your own complaint. Victor handed over running the government to Yvonne. If not for Katherine's manipulation of the media, there wouldn't have been the issues their was. Also, if the general estates can run the LC without the archon, why isn't it possible for them to do so with Victor in the field? Biased or favoritism to Katherine maybe?
I don't have my books available to comment further on the Vlad issue. The printed word is necessary to keep to the print.
As for the spy, what other comment is there? It wasn't SAFE from the FWL that found the truth, it was the CC. So the basis of that subject is just one of a long line of things said that weren't accurate. If you based your judgement of faulty information, then this is why understanding the story line is difficult.
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Requiem
06/04/20 06:35 AM
101.185.79.245
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More then a few posts back, you said Katherine never ordered the assassination of anyone.
More accurately - that no one could prove.
The Free Skye Movement is a fringe group (similar to that of the Black Dragon Society) – they do not represent the whole of the population.
This means that the concept of them (a percentage of the population that cannot be determined by the limited information provided) still loves Katherine - and this is only within the Skye region.
RIP – Grey Death Legion.
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Guess your comprehensive….
Look at how a security detail operates – there are even a few good movies that a relatively accurate on this point – they can give him his space whilst at the same time secure the area – though if you keep reading you will note that he was wearing the rank of a senior officer and the sniper had no idea that he was the coordinator until he found out at a later date.
Still doesn’t change the argument that if he was where he was supposed to be (on the Capitol world) this whole fiasco would have never occurred.
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One person does not run the government, unless a reagent.
Every government, especially a regency requires a massive number of departments, each with their own specialty with a vast degree of managerial levels is required to produce the documents necessary for the executive ministerial Ministers to make their decisions and then to report that to the PM’s / Presidents executive council of her / his ministers.
A vast bureaucracy is required – then when you factor in the number of worlds most Houses Govern the size of the bureaucracy increases to an exponential amount – in all reality I do not see why there isn’t one world in each Houses realm that is totally devoted to running the remaining worlds …..
What happens when Victor is with 10th does he always have someone else running the government for him?
That would mean that for quite time before the break up f the FedCom his mother and his sister were running the government and for much of the time there-after Yvonne was in charge – which means the entire story is now open to criticism on multiple levels ….
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The general estates can run the LC without the archon, why isn't it possible for them to do so with Victor in the field? Biased or favoritism to Katherine maybe?
The cannot operate the government ….. Nondi Steiner?
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It wasn't SAFE from the FWL that found the truth, it was the CC.
Comprehension again?
Bred for War – Page 377 – “This further suggests that the Word of Blake sent the message to Sun-Tzu’s agents to create an incident to set off a war.” … and on Page 378 ….”Which means Thomas Marik isn’t Thomas Marik”.
What this intimates is that when Comstar was in charge they broke the CC cipher for their deep agents activation.
Then when Comstar broke in two and the WoB was established this knowledge was taken with them into the FWL.
The Master (aka The Real Thomas Marik) realizing what Victor had done sent the CC go code from the FWL to the FS thereby activating Francesca Jenkins – when she obtained the proof she then sent the information to the CC who then gave it to Sun-Tzu who (unbeknown to him was now the cas’s paw of the Fake Thomas Marik – and who believed his agent acted on her own) then gave the information of the death of his son and his replacement to the Fake Thomas Marik – and then we had the War, that the Fake Thomas wanted for his own ends … to move the FWL closer to the CC and more distant from the LA and the FS ….
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this is why understanding the story line is difficult.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/04/20 12:00 PM
66.74.60.165
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With Gallagher and Dehaver still alive, they can very much confirm her orders.
Which leads to why there was no trial. Katherine was able to make people believe the sky was green, and their hearts only pumped when she wanted it to. And what do you know? The proof was slowly given out to the public. Hmmm. Guess you missed that part, like more then a few facts that remove the complaint before it is written.
And with this, how would having his security detail with him would have stopped the shot? Simple questions like this need to be answered, as they shut down the whole concept of how it could happen. Also, taking trips helps keep the enemy from knowing where the leader is, reducing the chance of assassins getting to him in one specific location.
The question of if Victor has someone running the government when he is gone is showing not a single thought went into it. There is always people in charge of doing things when the leader is out of contact. It would be completely stupid not to. And as you said. There is vast legions of people running the government on a day to day routine. At the very least, they gather information that is then screened by the higher ups, until it is deemed worthy of the leaders review. There is a limit to their power, as someone in the military branch is not able to make decisions for civilian transportation, or services to everyone such as power and water. The Leader is the main one that does this, and going back to the discussion of the feudal dukes and their lord, the leader puts trust in the dukes to do things right, and not try to steal the throne.
Still not getting the point. You say Victor could not run the government while in the field, but Katherine can. The concept of both doing the same thing to have it run while they are unavailable is not sinking in. Katherine can NOT leave to do things and be out of touch if Victor can't. The reverse is true as well. If Victor can leave, so can Katherine. Some how this is not being comprehended.
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Requiem
06/04/20 03:31 PM
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With Gallagher and Dehaver still alive, they can very much confirm her orders.
Simon Gallagher - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Simon_Gallagher - 20 April 3067 – Simon shot himself in the Fox’s Den.
Richard Dehaver – EndGame Page 166 – Curaitis promised Dehaver that he would be taken to a black site and the only person he would ever talk to again for the rest of his life was Curaitis – Why, because he Dehaver promised “I can be very convincing in front of the right people.”
Thus he will never see the light of day again – and will never be seen within a court room.
Any testimony Dehaver would supply is now highly questionable as the opposition will show that any information he supplied was under duress or torture – making any testimony he supplies as illegal / suspect within a court of law or within the court of public opinion if they decide to trot him out for the media (coercion of facts!).
Thus as far as the people of the FedCom are concerned, Victors cover-up of the truth holds, as there is still no proof available to the public as to Katherine’s Guilt, when he exiled his sister by “giving her” to Clan Wolf – an enemy of the realm to which he has been fighting against for the past 17 years. (Of which has massive political blowback on its own – Victor will have to explain his decision of just handing over his sister to the enemy and the idea of using her as a sacrificial pawn to save them from a war will not be considered a viable reason – as it will definitely portray him as the person Katherine said he is!
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how would having his security detail with him would have stopped the shot?
Security detail creates an exclusion zone – utilizing technology to ensure there is no unauthorized presence within a reasonable area around the Coordinator.
Still the fact remains if the Coordinator was on the capitol world this would not have happened. Thus the fact still remains that Victor’s presence within the 10th was detrimental to the ongoing smooth working of the Government – acting as a wannabe Napoleon just creates massive issues for his realm’s vast bureaucracy.
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There is always people in charge of doing things when the leader is out of contact. It would be completely stupid not to.
Thus between 17 June 3052 (the death of their father – Hanse) and 19 June 3055 (the death of their mother – Melissa) Katherine must have been a part of the executive Government for the Federated Commonwealth.
Then between 19 June 3055 to 18 September 3057 (When Katherine uses the Emergency War Powers to secede the Lyran half of the FedCom) she must have been the ONLY person acting as regent whilst victor was in charge of the 10th.
Thus putting the whole idea of not sending an assassin to kill Victor during this stage as completely ludicrous – she did not have to use the Emergency Powers Act, all she had to do was ensure there was a second assassin to kill Victor at or around the same time as her mother’s demise and she would have been First Princess of the Federated Commonwealth. Or better yet, if she has the powers of Regent whilst victor is being Napoleon with the 10th why would she ever give it up? It would just make more sense to ensure Victor had an accident or there was suitable evidence for Katherine to find to ensure he was blamed for their mother’s assassination – thus he is automatically removed as the head of the Federated Commonwealth.
As any other scenario where she is regent of the whole of the FedComm only to just become Archon of half of the Fed Comm becomes a ludicrous idea. There is no way she would give up the power of Regent over all of the FedCom just so she could take half – thus diminishing her power in half, …. It in not within her character to accept half when she could have it all!
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…..and going back to the discussion of the feudal dukes and their lord, the leader puts trust in the dukes to do things right, and not try to steal the throne.
Yes the Dukes do have a great deal of power … and yet there a certain aspects of the Government that only its titular head can make decisions.
Consider the Powers of the following as an example of what Victor is supposed to be in control of whilst he is with the 10th ….
USA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_of_the_president_of_the_United_States
England
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmpolcon/writev/842/m2.htm
The idea that he can just remain with the 10th whist at the same time be acting as the Head of the FedCom Government is beyond ludicrous!
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Still not getting the point. You say Victor could not run the government while in the field, but Katherine can.
When and where was Katherine ever in the field?
When Kathine was absent she transferred executive powers to Nondi Steiner so I really do understand this statement.
Whereas when Victor is in the Field he too must have someone to whom he has transferred many of his powers – thus opening up a massive issue with regards to why Katherine would give up ultimate power for just half of it – it would also suggest that if Katherine took half the realm wither her that Victor would have had to call upon Yvonne way earlier than anyone ever considered – and given that she was such a basket case you have to wonder how anything in the Government was ever achieved. And if she was not such a basket case and she had been acting as Victor’s regent for a reasonable amount of time Katherine’s plan to seize control over the Fed Suns half of the FedCom now becomes a ludicrous idea as Yvonne would have just stood up to Katherine and told her to “ “ in no un-certain terms.
Thus the whole writings as provided by canon are now considered extremely questionable as the behind the scenes operations within the Government would have been of equally as important as those on the battlefield as to whom is truly running the Government – and how they took command and how they kept their power!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/05/20 11:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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What truth did Victor cover up? Katherine ordered the death of her mother and many others. Not sure how many people heard Katherine tell the two to kill VIctor, but I doubt it was just the two of them. An outburst like that was probably done outside of a secured room.
Just a simple statement in writing would work for a witness statement. Then followed by the news he committed suicide in his jail cell would function. There are other things that were found, as the statement of slowly releasing the evidence to the public suggest more.
Katherine probably did have a lot of power when Victor was in the field. But there are others that have power to make decisions in their departments. This is why there is such a thing as regulations in government. Rules that guide what to do if things happen, like the leader being out of touch. Given the war-torn IS, it is very likely some deal with the death of the leader. What happens when a CEO of a major company goes on vacation? Their second in command deals with things. And for the most part, nothing but talk let's everyone know they are gone. Unless working with them, you may not even be aware of their being gone. It is how some schemes of holding the leaders in prison while running their company.
And you left out the part where Tormano Liao was the other person she left to run the LA with Nondi. Which shows that people that aren't blood related do get put into positions of great power. Why did this happen? Katherine was in the field, not sitting at the Palace, as you suggests be the only place a leader should be, to consort with the enemy of the FC for help in killing her sibling. And yet, you don't see the ironic contradiction to saying Victor was horrible, and suggested Katherine didn't do the same or worse.
Katherine thought Victor would die in combat. I want to say she did start trying to set him up for death in combat, but don't know where or when that happened. The order she gave would have had some agents try.
Well let's see. Giving up a temporary position that you KNOW will return to the rightful ruler, in order to gain PERMANENT power in half the realm. She knew her support on the FS side was weak to begin with, and the LC side was in her favor. The law of rule was on Victor's side for this. If not for Gemini being found out, she would not have been able to rule even the LC side. And like Curaitis, some people work without the rulers input. They work for the government, not so much the butt on the throne. So Katherine did not have the ultimate power you think she did. She was bound by a lot of things, that she could not just wave her hand and change. So leaving the restricted power of the entire FC, she took full control of the LC. Or as full as any leader can.
And yet you don't understand this?
Have you ever played chess? Where you sacrifice pieces in order to gain the advantage and win?
This is pretty much what power plays are. And having to keep the peaceful façade meant not using force to do so, in Katherine's part.
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Requiem
06/05/20 03:23 PM
101.185.79.245
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What truth did Victor cover up? Katherine ordered the death of her mother and many others
Consider the perspective in which this situation is being viewed.
You can say she is guilty, considering that information you are basing your decision upon is coming from what is written within all the novels. However, if you take it from the point of view of an ordinary FedCom soldier / citizen who does not have access to this knowledge then the entire story, as written, falls apart very quickly.
He (Victor) cannot prove this in a court of law – If a soldier/civilian made this absolute statement without proof this is just hearsay / slander - If anyone says they know absolutely that she is guilty, then can I ask if that soldier / civilian’s knowledge of Katherine’s guilt is taken from the point of view that they are a part of Victor’s “Inner Circle” and that they are going along with the “Company Line” that Katherine is guilty.
Katherine is “innocent until proven guilty” in a court of law as a matter of law! – not a court of Victors personal opinion based upon his gut feeling of the situation.
Prove it in a court of law - or she is innocent! Where is the proof beyond a reasonable doubt?
By handing Katherine over to Victor’s and the entire people of the Inner Sphere enemy of 17 years without absolute proof as to Katherine’s guilt that he can bring before the people of the former FedCom all this proves is that he is attempting a cover up as to the truth!
Especially when the place where she is handed over to the Clans takes place on Arc Royal – Duke Kell has just assisted one Steiner-Davion to ascend to the Archonship –And together with his son Clan Wolf’s (in Exile) Khan, Victor and Duke kell are there when Katherine is handed to their most hated enemy – the other Clan Wolf Khan (who resides within the Occupation Zone). The optics of this situation is incredibly murky – It can be considered a cover up by Victor, Duke Kell and his son for their own personal ambition!
When all this is added together there is but one rational conclusion most would come to – Victor is covering up the truth in the absence of absolute proof and in the absence of a court case – thus is Katherine as guilty as he says she is?
There was never any evidence related to Katherine that was released to the media that could condemn her and even if there was any, given that she was never given the opportunity to refute any evidence provided you have to consider any “evidence” with a skeptical mind.
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Katherine probably did have a lot of power when Victor was in the field. But there are others that have power to make decisions in their departments.
And yet given her birth her status would be far above any head of any department! – thus given the “rules” as regent she can make orders with impunity – only Victor could countermand her orders, an only when he has returned for the battlefield.
So whilst Victor is on campaign she would have absolute power of the FedCom either with her mother or on her own depending on the year in question – so why would she ever give this up for just half the power of the Lyran state?
It is against her personality for her to ever accept this situation – she is an all or nothing kind of girl.
Thus the entire idea that she would break the FedCom into two is a complete and utter fabrication – and as such the canon situation, as given, is now highly questionable as to its accuracy.
Given Katherine’s personality and the level of power that she wields (Regent) whist Victor is on campaign against the Clans there can be but one logical conclusion – she would eliminate Victor one way or another. Katherine would ensure his removal (at this point of time) either in the court of public opinion (as his mother’s murderer) or via assassination!
This is the only logical situation at this point in time that can be considered to make sense – thus all I can say is rooky mistake that is in no way presets a story progression given the situation that they have established!
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What happens when a CEO of a major company goes on vacation?
This is why you have a board of directors and a clear line of succession – the CFO will just take over for all the day to day requirements – however given the communication system we currently have access to and that we are all on the same planet it would be very easy to return the CEO to the board room if necessary.
This is not the case when considering the scope of the Inner Sphere – the communication system is open for manipulation / spying (ComStar) – and the distances involved to return the First Price to the Capitol World is not an easy process must be taken into consideration (and even if you create a chain of Jump-ships, the time taken to get from one point to another is considerable). Thus given the inherent situational limitations of the Inner Sphere, in this situation the second (Katherine) must have absolute power to ensure the continual / efficient running of Government if Victor wants to play soldier with the 10th on the front line.
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It is how some schemes of holding the leaders in prison while running their company.
Errrr…..No, all documents must be signed off – plus it is very easy to keep tabs on the majority of the important CEOs given the level of social media currently available.
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And you left out the part where Tormano Liao was the other person she left to run the LA with Nondi.
This is why you have rules – what direct authority did Katherine give to Tormano? You can be absolutely sure of the fact that his power would be severely limited in scope and power to that of an adviser only - so his ability to influence the government is next to nil – that is unless Katherine wants to act on the advice he provides her.
Nondi on the other hand is family and Katherine zealot supporter so leaving her in charge whilst Katherine is incommunicado is a no brainer.
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you don't see the ironic contradiction to saying Victor was horrible, and suggested Katherine didn't do the same or worse.
As stated previously – Katherine has Nondi as her regent when she is incommunicado – which is a logical decision – otherwise she is on the Capitol world and in control of the government.
As for Victor – choose a point in time during his rule and work out who his second should be given that the regency is usually given to his immediate successor – that is in the absence of Victor having a child who is of mature age – this would then be transferred to his siblings – 1st Katherine …… as per their age. This is again adhering to the rules of succession – if Victor dies in combat the government can immediately pivot to the new ruler – and again, in this case this would be Katherine.
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Katherine thought Victor would die in combat.
Again, given Katherine’s personality she would never hope for an outcome she would make sure that outcome would come to pass – one way or another Katherine would have ensured that Victor would fall and she would have a back up plan if the first did not succeed. Given that she is the media’s darling – it would not be hard to believe that she would leak evidence that Victor killed his mother and allow his fall to come from a trail by media – a battlefield of Katherine’s choosing where Victor is completely inept.
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Well let's see. Giving up a temporary position that you KNOW will return to the rightful ruler, in order to gain PERMANENT power in half the realm.
Rewrite – Giving up a temporary position that will return to the rightful ruler … but if they never return ….in order to gain permanent power over the entire realm …….
With the removal of Victor she obtains it all! There is no way she would let this chance slip her by …..
Gemini has nothing to do with it.
If you are moving on the top job then you go straight for the neck
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The law of rule was on Victor's side for this.
The law will favor the survivor ….
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And like Curaitis, some people work without the rulers input.
i.e. Katherine.
No ruler of any realm can lay claim to 100% of their people’s support - there will always be dissidents / the Curaitis’ of every realm – this is why every ruler has a security detail so that they can identify any legitimate threat and remove them.
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She was bound by a lot of things, that she could not just wave her hand and change. So leaving the restricted power of the entire FC, she took full control of the LC. Or as full as any leader can.
Sorry to say but this statement cannot be considered plausible – as regent she does not have restricted power – she has absolute power – especially when Victor is removed from the equation one way or another.
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Have you ever played chess? Where you sacrifice pieces in order to gain the advantage and win? This is pretty much what power plays are. And having to keep the peaceful façade meant not using force to do so, in Katherine's part.
This is not chess …. This is the game of thrones …. And as stated she can easily take the throne and keep the peace at the same time by destroying Victor in the court of public opinion (i.e. the media!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/05/20 03:43 PM)
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ghostrider
06/05/20 11:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wow. The entire part of Katherine is starting to get far out there. I will say I am guilty of doing what you do a lot, and see the end of it all, with all the facts, yet missing the point in time it happened. Again, the assumption that he does not have the proof is the issue here. Putting it up in court, and having her make a mockery of the courts, then manufacturing 'evidence' to the contrary would be a start. And Katherine is a master at manipulation, he was right to avoid her court time.
Now according to you, the ruler has the ability to do what ever they want, and damned the laws. Yet now there is something wrong with that statement? As you said with Katherine taking the throne, the Victor chooses what course of action is right. But this isn't how the history plays out with this choice.
You miss the biggest part of all or nothing. Patience. She had it all with holding back on trying to take it all at once. That would have stopped her schemes before she got the LA going. The long game is where this happens, not the short game. She played on lies and misinformation for years in the LC to make Victor look bad. She did NOT try and take the power at that time, as you would suggest. She loves power, but it seems she likes the thrill of being the Fox's daughter doing it. Push boundries and see what you can get away with. But in the end, an open grasp for power ends badly for all.
Before she killed her mother, she had no real power. Melissa ran it all, and was doing so until her death. So that part is incorrect that Katherine was regent. Which is why she had to kill her mother. The FC would side with Melissa over Katherine any day. Only a small few that would gain power would side with Katherine. And they did when Melissa died.
Now this is funny. The Duke of Arc Royal assisted in Victor to become Archon. The fact that Morgan was helping Katrina run from her uncle before she took over says your argument is dead. And Victor WAS the archon before Katherine usurped it. So he only helped in returning the throne to the rightful heir. Sounds like a loyalist to me.
And still you leave out all the issues she caused to not bring to heel those that opposed her, but to destroy them. She was borderline psycho with her actions. The only thing that keeps it from being seen by all is her manipulation of the facts. So that means she is a great liar.
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ghostrider
06/05/20 11:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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You might need to actually look at feudalism. The king really isn't needed for more then getting the dukes to play nice with each other, for a common goal. It really turns out the king is a big expense that the kingdom really didn't need. Worse is when the children come, and have the I can do what I want, and you will die to make it happen. Kingdoms, like the IS houses, are set up to run without their leaders, but the leaders make it look like they are the ones running the whole thing. There isn't something they do, that can't be done by others.
The CEO is still out of contact, but said I can sign off on what is needed to run the company. Sounds familiar with things like taking over a company?
A lot of those left in charge after Melissa was killed, where those that took over when Hanse was in the field. THE SAME PEOPLE. I don't see you saying he never had a good set of people running the FS while he was out. He did have to travel a lot and be out of contact while negotiating with Katrina for the FC alliance. And what do you know. Katherine used those same people with a few exceptions when she got into power. Hmmm...
Gemini had nothing to do with Katherine pulling the LC out of the FC and basically cementing her position of power there? What books are you reading? What game are you playing? It obviously isn't the one the rest of us are playing. That was the KEY to give her the excuse to set things in motion.
Had nothing to do with it? Sheesh.
Oddly enough, the statement of Katherine not working for the government is true. She worked to destroy as much of it as needed to remove Victor, then ran her own version. Her own actions is what causes the destruction of the LC. The civil war made it possible for Vlad to even threaten the LC and live.
She had a lot of things she could not do. Even with being in charge of the entire FC, she could not do some things. This is why the civil war happened. She tried to and failed. But this is something that you will never see. Victor is not perfect, and never will be, but he did not start the civil war. Katherine did by her unbridled lust for power. As said, the civil war was going to happen with or without him. With him, there was more then just defending regions. He had the right to contradict her in all ways.
Had she really had the power to do what she wanted to, nuking Victor and claiming it was an accident while fighting the clans, or worse, suggesting Victor was about to use a nuke, and it went off would be the most likely announcement. But yet nothing happened.
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Requiem
06/06/20 07:33 AM
101.185.79.245
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Putting it up in court, and having her make a mockery of the courts, then manufacturing 'evidence' to the contrary would be a start. And Katherine is a master at manipulation, he was right to avoid her court time.
With the absence of any accountability on the part of Victor as to what he promised (Evidence as to Katherine’s Perfidy) there will forever be those who believe in Katherine’s innocence and Victor’s petulance in ridding himself of his political rival.
He has no choice but to state his case before the FedCom people
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Patience
Why? …. Is she now to be compared to a fox playing with her wounded prey? To which I have never seen in her personality
The simplicity of removing victor at this early stage enables her take in all now – which is in line with her personality and her goals. Whilst Victor is on campaign with the 10th and as regent she can politically isolate him – forcing him to abdicate, there is absolutely no point in dragging this out ….
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Before she killed her mother, she had no real power.
Not so …. Katherine is the heir-designate (that is if Victor dies without an heir (child) Katherine will be appointed ruler of the FedCom. As such this gives her a tremendous amount of political power within the FedCom.
Plus whilst Katherine stands next to Melissa it is very good optics for her to be compared to her mother and grand-mother.
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The FC would side with Melissa over Katherine any day.
If Victor is killed in combat this would be a non event!
It would only become an issue if Katherine attempted to politically isolate her bother and their mother came to Victor’s aid within the political / media environment. However the level of their mother’s assistance would depend on the charge being leveled against Victor and the quality of the ‘proof’ being used against Victor.
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Now this is funny.
When Duke Kell wen to Morgan in 3066 whom did re return with after he bent the knee and swore allegiance to as his new Archon ?
April 5th: Forces under the command of Morgan Kell and Peter Steiner-Davion secure Tharkad for the Allies.
April 24th: Peter Steiner-Davion is declared the Archon of the Lyran Alliance.
August 26th: Katherine is handed over to Vlad on Arc-Royal.
Thus, comprehension of reading once more, as was referring to Peter not Victor as at this stage Victor had abdicated in favor of both Peter and Yvonne.
Thanks for pointing this out …. Thus Victor – who does not hold any political / military / judicial power (as he has abdicated many months previously) within both the Lyran Alliance and the Federated Suns (as at August 26th) committed an illegal act as he no longer holds any legal authority when it comes to Katherine. Thus he can now be charged with committing a crime when he assist the Khan of Clan Wolf in kidnapping a citizen of the Lyran Alliance (Katherine) and taking her to the Clan Occupation Zone.
Legally Victor would have had to request Peter’s consent, as he is the Archon of the LA, prior to handing her over as he no longer has any legal authority to do so – and everyone who stood around and did nothing can be charged with abetting his criminal act.
So can we now charge Victor with aiding and abetting the Khan of Clan Wolf with kidnapping?
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I don't see you saying he never had a good set of people running the FS while he was out. He did have to travel a lot and be out of contact while negotiating with Katrina for the FC alliance. And what do you know. Katherine used those same people with a few exceptions when she got into power.
Where was this information published – Book and Pages?
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Gemini had nothing to do with Katherine pulling the LC out of the FC and basically cementing her position of power there?
Comprehension of reading once more?
As Katherine is Regent – all she needs to do is to remove victor and she in now the First Princess of the FedCom – thus Gemini no longer has any real significance!
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Oddly enough, the statement of Katherine not working for the government is true. She worked to destroy as much of it as needed to remove Victor, then ran her own version.
Unsubstantiated – proof required.
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Her own actions is what causes the destruction of the LC.
Sorry no, it was Victor who declared the start of the Civil War not Katherine.
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He had the right to contradict her in all ways.
Sorry no … he was a member of ComStar’s ComGuard at the Start of the Civil War and as such he had no righ whatsoever to contradict her as she is no the legal First Princess of the FedCom!
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Had she really had the power to do what she wanted to, nuking Victor and claiming it was an accident while fighting the clans, or worse, suggesting Victor was about to use a nuke, and it went off would be the most likely announcement.
Really? …. Sorry to say but this is not Katherine’s style at all.
She would just kill off the entire planet with a mass orbital bombardment ensuring everyone on the planet is killed off to ensure that Victor does not make if off the planet.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/06/20 12:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe the reason why he gave up the spot after the civil war was to remove that taint. Since he is not on the throne, the accusation of removing a political rival isn't there. This is a better choice then allowing Katherine to destroy the judicial system with her antics and lies. She would perjure herself in court without a doubt. And would not be punished for that.
You don't think she wasn't making him look bad before the take over? Might need to reread the fact she was doing so for years before Gemini gave her the chance to take the LC. Oh yeah. That was years of doing it. Not in her nature.
Still not getting it that with Melissa alive, Katherine was completely neutered in how much power she had. If Victor had died before his mother, Melissa would have taken back over, and countering her daughters moves. Maybe to the point of assigning her to embassadore to one of the other houses, then setting up one of the other children to take over. And with Melissa not being killed, operation Gemini would not have happened. The power play would have shifted to Katherine verse Melissa, and she would have lost.
Do you really believe that Kell's oath to Victor didn't supersede the oath to Katherine? That in a feudal society, this sort of issue happened so often, it was expected when the ruler started to show dictatorship and being a tyrant? As he had the proof she had her mother killed, that same bomb killed his wife as well. The lip service was to prevent the people under his command from being singled out.
And you are forgetting a major fact in your little analysis on the legal power Victor had. He wasn't just Archon, but the Archon-Prince. The archon is like a king, while the Archon-Prince was emperor. As in all civil wars, the victor gets to choose the losers punishment.
And this is where Victor screwed up. He allowed his caring for family to avoid executing her on the spot. It would have been his right. She usurped his power, and caused so much damage. Try thinking the entire steps thru before complaining about how things didn't go your way in the game.
Read the wiki: One of her first actions as ruler was to dismiss Ardan Sortek as Prince's Champion and Director of the Crucis March Command and replace him with the malleable Simon Gallagher. What? That meant Ardan was still in power just as she took over? Wow! So Victor did have the people in power that Hanse had to run the FS, possible the FC. And since his mother had good people in the LC government, why would he change them out, unless they stated they would not work for and with him?
The difference in the Commonwealth was that Katherine had not spent years eroding Victor's support, so she had to deal with a much stronger and more entrenched set of Victor supporters, including Duke George Hasek, though he declined to openly challenge her. Wow. She did spend years undercutting Victor in the LC portion. Hmmm.
Do you understand that if Katherine had done anything against Victor while Melissa was alive, she would have been stripped of all power by Melissa and removed from inheriting the throne? Gemini gave her the opportunity to seize the archonship in the LC. Without it, she could do nothing but wait for an opening, and that would not happen anytime soon. So her 'legal and noble' excuse to destroy the FC would not have been there.
Still not getting it with the fact that Katherine stealing the throne and the damage she did before hand, is what caused the entire mess? I could go back further and say the signing of the FC alliance did that. Without that document, none of this would have happened. The future is the odd thing. Had she waited, it was very possible that Victor would have abdicated to her, so he could play the war hero, though more likely he would have learned to run it properly.
Ah. So the deposed ruler of the FC had no right to try and reclaim the throne lost to political movements, and prevent the subjugation of those that did not agree with her taking power? The fact he was the figure head to unite all those Katherine was destroying in her attempt to keep the title for herself? Oh yeah. Anyone that isn't the ruler should not try to gain power? Then Katherine would be faulted for undercutting Victor.
Do you think it would take a full orbital nuking of a world to take out Victor? You love the backstabbing tyrannical style of Katherine, yet don't think a simple tactical nuke would be enough to take out Victor without taking out a world? Something even less radioactive like engine failure, or jump drive failure could do so. Even a simple bomb placed where he was going could have done that. Blame it on the Free Skye movement. Imagination seems to have left, but then this would negate the 'only viable' solution you came up with.
Not Katherine's style at all? Using lies to cover up the fact that she was making sure her power was secured, and removing her greatest rival at the same time? Might need to re-evaluate your concept of Katherine. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing she would do.
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Requiem
06/06/20 06:13 PM
101.185.79.245
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The facts remain …. Victor believed that his sister Katherine had Arthur assassinated in order to prevent him from becoming popular enough to be a threat to her rule. He (Victor) used this as justification for joining the gathering civil war, so Arthur’s apparent assassination is often cited as the spark that ignited the FedCom Civil War (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arthur_Steiner-Davion)
Victor therefore turned to the only alternative he believed was left to him: to forcibly ensure Katherine’s abdication, a political decision that led directly to war. i.e. her abuses of power had become so endemic that she left him no choice but to act.
However, with the end of the Civil War his moral rants as to Katherine’s abuses of power are now completely hollow. There is not one shred of proof Victor can provide the FedCom people as to the righteousness of his cause other than the idea that his might makes right.
Victor’s agenda is atypical to the rule of law that is expected in a ruler.
Victor has clearly crossed a line and can be rightfully called a DICTATOR when he refuses to allow the judicial system and the right of law to prove that he was correct in his decision.
Fear in the judicial process / fear in even allowing the Lyran news cast facility, CMM, to interview himself and Katherine where each put their case before the people strengthens my case – Victor is now a DICTATOR.
Then to put his brother Arthur on the throne Victor abdicated – HE IS NO LONGER A PART OF THE GOVERNMENT – thus when requested by Vlad to hand over Katherine HE DOES NOT HAVE THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO DO SO as Arthur is Archon and as such only he has the legal authority over Katherine now. Victor has therefore committed a crime in handing her over – as he is once more a member of ComGuard, he is no longer even a Lyran citizen!
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Still not getting it that with Melissa alive, Katherine was completely neutered in how much power she had.
Still not getting it that Katherine is First Princess-designate and as such she has massive power!
If Victor had fallen by the rights of succession the crown goes to Katherine not Melissa!
ONLY Victor ever needed to be assassinated / forced to abdicate to ensure Katherine’s ascendency to the throne!
Thus Operation Gemini never needed to occur.
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Do you really believe that Kell's oath to Victor didn't supersede the oath to Katherine?
An Oath is given to his current liege lord – thus during the Civil War Victor did not have his Oath – at war’s end it was given to Arthur.
Also remember that the Kells are a part of Heimdall – the loyal opposition ……
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As he had the proof she had her mother killed, that same bomb killed his wife as well.
Prove it! …. There is no proof whatsoever within the Canon story that Kell can draw upon – there is only the circumstantial evidence supplied by Victor!
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And you are forgetting a major fact in your little analysis on the legal power Victor had. He wasn't just Archon, but the Archon-Prince. The archon is like a king, while the Archon-Prince was emperor.
Victor is not the victor – Arthur is the victor as he is now Archon of the Lyran Alliance.
Victor ABDICATED his position – he is now a member of the ComGuard thus any power he did have as Archon-Price is completely meaningless!
Thus HE DOES NOT have the legal authority to determine Katherine’s fate – at this stage the ruler of the Lyran State is Arthur, and as such only he has the legal authority over Katherine.
Thus Victor and every other person in that room has committed a crime in allowing Vlad to kidnap a Lyran citizen (Katherine) by force.
quod erat demonstrandum!!!!!!!!!!
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One of her first actions as ruler was to dismiss Ardan Sortek as Prince's Champion and Director of the Crucis March Command and replace him with the malleable Simon Gallagher.
And how does this apply? – as administrations change so too does their members – some retain their positions others leave or are forced out, this is just politics.
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The difference in the Commonwealth was that Katherine had not spent years eroding Victor's support, so she had to deal with a much stronger and more entrenched set of Victor supporters, including Duke George Hasek, though he declined to openly challenge her. Wow. She did spend years undercutting Victor in the LC portion. Hmmm.
Whereas all she needed to do, circa 3050, was eliminate Victor and none of this becomes an issue.
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Do you understand that if Katherine had done anything against Victor while Melissa was alive, she would have been stripped of all power by Melissa and removed from inheriting the throne?
Again this requires proof – if Victor could never obtain any why do you believe that Melissa could especially when she is grieving the loss of her eldest son?
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Gemini gave her the opportunity to seize the archonship in the LC. Without it, she could do nothing but wait for an opening, and that would not happen anytime soon.
Again Gemini is a non issue …. remove Victor and problem solved …. Katherine is Archon-Princess.
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So her 'legal and noble' excuse to destroy the FC would not have been there.
Why would she do this when her ultimate goal is re-create the Star League with her as its absolute ruler – ie she becomes the ruler over the entire Inner Sphere?
Also Victor would never abdicate the throne – he would one day marry and then produce offspring thus putting her further away from the throne – thus she needed to act before any of this could occur.
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Do you think it would take a full orbital nuking of a world to take out Victor?
Do I have to always put the word ‘satire’ in?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/06/20 10:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Dictator? Because he didn't give a lying pretender to the throne, a chance to send out messages to her followers, or even the state, to enact more violence? Because he KNEW she would make a complete mockery of the judicial system.
And now we are back to saying the Victor is wrong because at the time he joined the ALREADY going civil war, it was Arthur that was the straw to break the camels back.
Even though he had the evidence, why should he show any sort of mercy to someone that stole the thrones and destroyed the FC? And that she did. Her power grab caused the entire civil war, which in turned broke up the FC, and caused so many lives to be lost. She chose that action. There is nothing to suggest she tried to steer him in the right direction. She just destroyed everything she could to get at him. But then you wrote the entire story line, so most everyone else is wrong about this.
Really not looking at your posts? Melissa was not designate but the ACTUAL Archon-Princess. To be honest, she never stepped down, so that entire rant is worthless. Melissa was still in charge. Or did you suddenly forget that?
Loyal opposition to the rulers excess to abuse the people of the state. Sounds like he did the right thing in opposing Katherine. So yes. It was the right thing to do.
Is that why Morgan had determined Victor was innocent before any evidence was presented? Oh yeah. He just wanted to make sure Katherine didn't rule for the hell of it. Gotcha.
Abdicated a position that was taken from him? Saying he wasn't the victor since he doesn't rule the LC, but then he doesn't rule the FS either. That was NEVER his intention. So politics is not the reason he joined the civil war. Which started before he got involved. And that fact will not change in the canon line, no matter how badly you want to change it.
I guess you missed the part where the others with him discussed this before she was going to be locked away. But that seems typical of the complaints. Lacking all the facts, and just reading what you want it to say, not as it is written.
So far, more then a few statements were half truths, or outright fictional compared to what is actually written.
You asked for proof that the rulers used people already in power to run things while they were not present. Ardan was running things with Hanse, and was kept in his position to make decisions after Hanse died. Ardan had a lot of experience in what he did, and Victor used that to keep the FS and FC running while he was out.
She tried to remove Victor and failed. And Melissa would have found more evidence of Katherine's attack, as there is a huge difference in the people around that would know what went down. The military would get to the bottom of it, and her prints would be found.
Katherine originally believed she would become first lord with just the LA behind her. When Victor crushed that, by voting in Sun Tzo, she made it her life's goal to remove him from power. So she did not originally think of becoming archon-princess. That opportunity came up later. The fact Victor KNEW he needed more training to become an effective ruler, is part of why he tapped the others to deal with the FC while he went to war. Had Melissa not been killed, she would very well have taught him what he needed to know. At the time, Melissa was more of a threat then even the clans to her rise in power. THAT is why she had to be removed. Don't like that fact, well then write your own story moving away from canon, as you seem to suggest canon is wrong because you don't like the way it turned out.
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Requiem
06/07/20 08:33 AM
101.185.79.245
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Once again consider the perspective in which this situation is being viewed. Consider here the information you are basing your decision upon is coming from - what is written within all the novels and from the point of view of an ordinary FedCom soldier / citizen who does not have access to this knowledge.
Then consider what was written –
“Victor has clearly crossed a line and can be rightfully called a DICTATOR when he refuses to allow the judicial system and the right of law to prove that he was correct in his decision.
Fear in the judicial process / fear in even allowing the Lyran news cast facility, CMM, to interview himself and Katherine where each put their case before the people strengthens my case – Victor is now a DICTATOR.”
The imposition of his will upon the entire judicial system as well as imposing his belief that he knows what is best for the FedCom people by denying them access to any evidence regarding Katherine’s illegal assassination of both her bother and mother can only be described as DICTITORIAL.
In the absence of proof and in addition to illegal action in allowing Katherine to be kidnapped by Clan Wolf he has proven once and for he is unworthy of his position.
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Even though he had the evidence
Again there is no definitive evidence – on circumstance and conjecture!
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Melissa was not designate but the ACTUAL Archon-Princess. To be honest, she never stepped down, so that entire rant is worthless.
What did she offer Victor and what did he refuse with the entire family’s knowledge – did she or didn’t she offer Victor the throne? And even if she did not step down did not Victor take over his fater’s position as being in control of the entire FedCom Military from that point on?
Worthless? …. Hardly.
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Is that why Morgan had determined Victor was innocent before any evidence was presented? Oh yeah. He just wanted to make sure Katherine didn't rule for the hell of it.
Time to go back and re read the period regarding the post explosion – Katherine nursed the injured kell back to health and it was not unit Victor had a quiet word with him did he swap allegiances to Victor – so from looking outside in how can the Kells know that Victor is not playing them false in an effort to regain the LA and he is using them as his cat’s paw against Katherine?
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Abdicated a position that was taken from him?
Comprehension of reading once more!
Mother dead – Victor ruling – Katherine initiated plan to paint him as the bomber – CMM and all FedCom Media pick up on the story – Victor is now painted as the Balck Prince – Katherine demands his abdication – Victor has no choice but to give her the throne considering the people and the military have turned against him.
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I guess you missed the part where the others with him discussed this before she was going to be locked away.
All this statement proves that everyone within the room were co-conspirators to a crime – The Legal authority resides with Auther not Victor (at this stage post civil war) he has abdicated and he has resumed his position with the ComGuard – Victor does NOT have the legal authority to hand over a Lyran citizen to that of the Khan of Clan Wolf – and by doing so Victor has now committed an Illegal Act.
Ardan Sortek was the Prince’s Champion – this just makes him XO of the FedCom Military so when Hanse dies and Victor takes over this would have been considered to be quite a rational and normal decision for Victor.
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She tried to remove Victor and failed. And Melissa would have found more evidence of Katherine's attack, as there is a huge difference in the people around that would know what went down.
Personal supposition and conjecture!
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The military would get to the bottom of it, and her prints would be found.
Just like the military were able to find out about her mother’s assassination? If they could not do it then, there is little hope they will in this scenario.
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Had Melissa not been killed, she would very well have taught him what he needed to know.
Highly doubtful as this would require Victor leaving his military life with the 10th and being at court for an extremely long period of time. Victor has never shown that he can stay out of a Mech cockpit for any length of time!
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At the time, Melissa was more of a threat then even the clans to her rise in power.
Completely disagree …. Only Victor is a threat, and with his elimination nothing can stop her!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/07/20 01:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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The judicial system didn't appoint Katherine as ruler over the FC. She seized the power in the LC, then destroyed the Regent in the FS. Victor was the ruler. Plain and simple. Katherine was not. So if the judicial system was used, Katherine would have been removed from office long before the civil war. So courts are not on your side.
Rule of law.
Plus, as you said, the victor decides what is right. Katherine lost her power in the FC, so when Vlad came for her, she gladly went with him, as she knew she could manipulate him. This was so much better then jail. Oh yeah. This is a feudal society, so the 'king' does not have to have a trial or court. They can dispense the punishment without any need to let the masses know the exact reasons. just that they were traitors to the crown, even if they were family of the ruler. History does not support your side here.
Where is the proof he didn't have any? Just one persons concept? You are trying to argue that the people that WROTE the story, are wrong in saying he had the proof but didn't use it. Sorry, but this goes to the story righters. The conspiracy theory put forth is not supported by the people writing the story, so have to say in canon, Victor had the proof. For that alt, it could fly, but not canon.
But then the alt should not have even progressed to the FC being made, if following the logic.
Also, facial recognition would have caught the assassin a lot sooner, as the intel department would have had that sent out to ALL ports that are connected to the HPG, and they would in turn send it to the ones that weren't.
What does Victor becoming General of the Armies have to do with the fact Melissa was still in control of the FC? It would be almost required Victor, the heir to the throne, would lead the military. That is part of tradition in the FS, and for the most part, the LC. It does not negate the fact Melissa was the Archon-princess. Katherine had to bow to Melissa on all accounts. So this point is fact. The argument is moot.
Funny. You just answered that Morgan knew Katherine killed her mother and his wife, before the proof was given. He had already found out the truth, which is how he knew Victor was NOT lying to him. He didn't investigate it afterwards. He knew before Victor showed him conformation of what he had found out.
Comprehensive reading has again proven the facts as false. The people and military have not turned on the prince. Some will believe the rumors while others will believe it wasn't him. Nondi would be, and was, blinded by her dislike of Victor. But that would not start a military coup. The massive uprising would not be a much as you want to believe, and in the FS, would be far less then you could think. So no. He would not abdicate just because you want him to. There were more then a few past IS rulers that continued in office while something like this was going on. Most were DC leaders. They were a bit brutal in removing that idea, which I doubt Victor would stoop to using. Katherine might, once the rumors turned to her being the one to order it. Manipulation works in both directions. It just takes Victor to break from trying to be honest about everything. And even then, the people working for him could do it without him being part of it.
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ghostrider
06/07/20 02:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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Katherine was a prisoner of war. She had no more rights to be considered a citizen of the LC/FC. She should have been executed the moment she was taken into captivity, even if Victor ordered her to remain unharmed. She destroyed so many lives in her greed, that more then a few in the rebellion where there because of her orders that destroyed their entire lives, with a lot being their families. With history, it was known that the loser in a family fight was sold to foreign people. So giving her away, isn't unknown in feudal societies. Marrying off relatives is the same thing, only seen as more legal.
Ardan was used as an example. When a new ruler comes in, the career people remain in position, otherwise you destroy the ability to rule. Some retire, but train their replacements. So the entire concept of Victor not having good people in position to run the government while in the field is false. If it was true that he didn't, the entire FC would have rose up against him without Katherine's prodding. Concentrated weakness is a good example of this.
The entire argument of Victor being a horrible ruler is supposition and conjecture. One based on your personal feeling that the people who made the storyline were wrong, and are desperately trying to make it sound like they were wrong. I don't agree with everything canon had or done, but in the end, it is their story. If you don't like it, then don't support it.
OK. Why would the military investigate Melissa's assassination? That would be intel's job. The military would be involved in Victor's death, as it would be done while he was on duty. They have a stricter policy of keeping records on what is going then normal. Security would have all people under surveillance, which include camera's watching all directions. They would know who went in and when they came out. The party Melissa was at, seemed to have failed in that.
Maybe the fact that Hanse was alive, gave him the opportunity to be in the cockpit so much. With his death, he was doing what he could to save the FC, and once the treaty was in place, he would have settled down to learn more. Or at least realize he had to do the rest of the job. And if he couldn't do it, would have relied on his father's, and then mother's advisors on how to proceed with things. Pretty much like he already did while Hanse was alive. But for some reason, you believe that every last thing under the sun requires his attention. If that were true, the leaders would never have time for even sleeping, considering how many worlds each nation has in it. Each one having their own problems and issues. There is just not enough time in the day for the ruler to even read, much less address the concerns.
Still not going to so the truth and logic to the fact that Melissa was the biggest threat to Katherine, I see. The fact that Victor knew very little about being sneaky with manipulating others, nor did he seem to care about the people, verses Melissa knowing how to deal with people, and knew how the government works, so back door politics were better known to her. Which is more of a threat to Katherine at the time? Victor will hang himself if what you want to believe is true. And she would make sure that happened. No need for the people to know it, as it leads to... a civil war?
So your hatred for Victor has clouded your entire view of the game.
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Requiem
06/07/20 07:08 PM
101.185.79.245
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Plain and simple.
Sorry but no it is not …. The legal document that created the FedCom and ensured the arranged marriage between Hanse and Melissa …. has an emergency powers clause, in that in the event of an unspecified emergency either the LC or the FS can dissolve the FedCom Union. As the Estates General appoints the Leaders of the Lyran realm – once the Estates General appointed Katherine as Archon she is quite within her legal remit to dissolve the FedCom and take command of the Lyran Half and is completely legal.
Once again look at the dates of Arthur becoming Archon and that of Katherine being given to Vlad – as this occurred after Arthur became Archon – Victor has abdicated! – He is once more a citizen of ComStar as Commander of the ComGuard – he has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY to hand Katherine over and as such by handing her over he and everyone who was within the room when he did so is now guilty of aiding and abetting the Kidnapping of a Lyran citizen (Katherine).
During the Civil War Victor made promises to the people of the FedCom as to proving Katherine’s guilt regarding the death of their Mother and their Brother – by refusing to provide this evidence (as he was unable to ever obtain this evidence) – proves that he is a dictator in his political approach – he is telling the people of the FedCom that he is ruling by might alone!
By handing over Katherine without a trial – all this is doing is demonstrating his will in removing his political enemy, in the absence of any proof whatsoever! Victor is completely in the wrong at this point in time.
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This is a feudal society, so the 'king' does not have to have a trial or court.
The IS society is similar to that of England however the Queen and the Nobility still rule – however the courts and the parliamentary government still exist!
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They can dispense the punishment without any need to let the masses know the exact reasons.
In the DC and the CC – anywhere else no they can-not!
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History does not support your side here.
Prove it!
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Victor had the proof
Prove it!
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facial recognition would have caught the assassin a lot sooner
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/security/g28719483/trick-surveillance-systems/
… and this is just currently – 1000 years into the future who know what else there should be available.
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What does Victor becoming General of the Armies have to do with the fact Melissa was still in control of the FC?
Understanding the responsibility of those in command.
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Katherine had to bow to Melissa on all accounts.
Only as long as Victor is alive / has the support of the FedCom people – with Victor removed how long will it take before she gives up the throne for Katherine? She has already offered the throne to Victor (who refused) so the premise stands.
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You just answered that Morgan knew Katherine killed her mother and his wife
Problems with comprehension of reading? He believed Katherine was innocent until Victor convinced him otherwise based upon the circumstantial and speculative evidence that he had obtained – ‘evidence’ that would never be able to prove Katherine’s guilt in a court of law!
Again there is no proof that can convict Katherine in a court of Law – there is only circumstantial and speculative evidence that may or may not prove a payment for the sale of land – there is no proof as to what the payment was really for – there is no smoking gun that proves Katherine’s absolute guilt!
Again, consider the perspective in which this situation is being viewed. With all the knowledge of the novels or as an average citizen on the street.
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He would not abdicate just because you want him to.
And yet the people of the Lyran state no longer had any faith in victor – so they accepted Katherine.
And yet Yvonne had no longer any faith in herself – so they accepted Katherine once more – rather than hang on for a couple more months for Victor to return.
In both cases the people of the FedCom allowed Katherine to take power – they had no faith in Victor – he is thus forced to abdicate when the people no longer have faith in him.
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Katherine was a prisoner of war.
And as such she still has rights - https://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/TreatmentOfPrisonersOfWar.aspx
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So the entire concept of Victor not having good people in position to run the government while in the field is false.
Victor may have good people in place – but that does not distract from the fact that the government requires the Head of the Government to make decisions, attend meetings, and sigh documents on a daily basis to keep the government moving forward – This cannot be done whilst being on active duty!
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If it was true that he didn't, the entire FC would have rose up against him without Katherine's prodding.
Where were these ‘good people’ when Yvonne just handed over the realm to Katherine?
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The entire argument of Victor being a horrible ruler is supposition and conjecture.
Sorry but I have proven using facts that he is an incompetent ruler – go back and re-read what was pointed out.
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Why would the military investigate Melissa's assassination? That would be intel's job.
Then why assert this above?
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There is just not enough time in the day for the ruler to even read, much less address the concerns.
The Government must be efficient and accurate – requiring everyone to perform to their best – Hanse understood this – Victor did not.
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Still not going to so the truth and logic to the fact that Melissa was the biggest threat to Katherine
Without Victor Melissa is not a threat.
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So your hatred for Victor has clouded your entire view of the game.
Vice versa?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/07/20 08:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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Since the birth of the children of Melissa and Hanse, which one has the right to pull either the LC or FS out of the FC? Victor was the ruler of both. Katherine took her position of regent and seized the throne for her own purposes. She did not do it for the people of the LC. Which goes back to, did she have the right to remove the LC?
The fact Victor gave up the archonship to Arthur, does not negate the fact that he still had the authority to remove Katherine. I believe he was one of those that voted to just contain Katherine, as the meeting of all at Katherine's prison had already agreed upon that course of action, as the place had to be built. So it wasn't just done right then and there. So no. It was decided when she gave up, not when they were at the prison. Also, Victor would have had to resign Comstar when he got involved in the civil war. To continue his position would have gotten Comstar involved in a domestic dispute. Something they 'agreed' upon not to do in the formation of it. So this theory is debunked.
Exist and can be bypassed is two different things. There are things the courts can not deal with in a feudal society. And ANY court that was to try the case would have had issues of bias for either side. So no. A court trial could not happen, even if it was to go to court. No judges that would not recuse themselves for bias existed. The government does NOT have to deal with telling their people why they tried to assassinate someone. Deny everything is SOP for rulers. Victor screwed up by admitting it.
You're the one that posts about history, so you already know the cases of people being thrown in jail and said to be traitors, and no one had to know the reason why. It happened through out history, and continued into the future. And with this, you said that the victor and ruler did not have to answer to anyone. Oh yeah. That was when you said Katherine didn't.
And again. Prove that Victor didn't have the proof. The print said he did. So go back and read the real words in the books not the fantasy ones you desperately want to have.
Ardan was left as the prince's champion in the FS. Nondi continued for the LC. Given the fact he learned from his parents, he definitely knew the responsibilities of command. Part of why he kept in the field. The thought that he would not send someone else to do something he wouldn't was a motivative point.
Again, supposition that isn't supported. The LC did have issues with Victor, but the majority did not. For most, they would see it as a way to neuter the FWL. Though with Katherine's manipulation, that did not come out like it should have. And again. If it was even a majority of the people, then the civil war would not have had LYRAN'S joining the cause like they did.
And what do the laws say in the 3000's? The fact that Katherine is part of the ruling house, and was deposed in a civil war. Funny how the people on worlds they removed Katherine's troops did not rise up in rebellion as soon as those forces left. That suggests they didn't side with Katherine. And more then a few unit went completely neutral, which Katherine forced to side with Victor when she ordered those units destroyed. To suggest Nondi ordered it would have caused a split between them.
Yet again, you do not seem to see that the government had people to make decisions, and the head ruler really isn't needed beyond appearances. Otherwise, they would falter when the leader died, and the next in line was being moved into position. Which is interesting as you say the General Estates can say Katherine can be archon, but say they can't put Adam in that position.
Yvonne believe Katherine over those advisors. That was her downfall. And even with that, it wasn't so much she was a bad leader, but that the implications that she wasn't doing things right, caused Yvonne's downfall. The FS was still doing great, just the media portraited her as incompetent.
The fact that you will say anything to condemn Victor leads to your views. Victor had issues, but wasn't the horrible ruler you make him out to be. From what I have seen in the books, I agree with most of the outcome. I knew before reading it, Katherine killed Melissa, as she was the main one to gain anything from it. Ryan didn't stand as much to gain and Katherine did. And given her self absorbtion, that made it even more likely. Only after Melissa died, did he have to deal with the entire FC. And when he did, there was no real issues with the FC beyond Katherine's plan to support your views.
The military would have to investigate anything that happened to Victor while on duty. Melissa was not part of that, so they were not obligated to investigate the bombing. Not sure why this has to even be said, as it is very obvious.
Those good people that refused to let Katherine take power over the FC did rise up. And she started the tyrannical process of putting them down, as you said she had the right to do. She resorted to using the military and her position to hurt those that said she was not the ruler, and were going to wait until Victor got back. This is obvious as well.
Victor had enough faith in the people running the government to see he was not needed at HQ. Not sure why this isn't obvious as well. Which goes back to the statement of the ruler really not being needed to run things. They are just the showpiece of it.
The ruling leader was not a threat to the one that wanted to take it? Katherine knew Victor would screw up with something, where she could do nothing to Melissa. It would be foolish to think Katherine did not try to persuade her mother to give her the throne. The fact she would not, should say she is far more of a threat then Katherine was.
My dislike of what Katherine did to the FC does not cloud my view like you want to think. Victor was not a saint in any case, but he was not the monster you say he was. He did less to hurt the FC, then Katherine was.
And if you think Victor would not give up being in the front line, Katherine could very well use that to convince him to abdicate peacefully. But that was not going to happen in the story.
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Requiem
06/08/20 06:44 AM
101.185.79.245
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She did not do it for the people of the LC.
The Lyran people would argue the point, as she was acting as the peacemaker keeping the Lyran state out of an immoral war started by an immoral leader (Victor).
…. and yes she does have the right as the Estates General ratified her position as Archon …
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The fact Victor gave up the archonship to Arthur, does not negate the fact that he still had the authority to remove Katherine.
This is completely in error … once abdicated he has NO POWER whatsoever – what power he did have has been transferred to Arthur. Thus in allowing Vlad to take Katherine he has committed a crime against the Lyran state.
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Victor would have had to resign Comstar when he got involved in the civil war.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Victor_Steiner-Davion
“In order to take the reins of the rebellion, and in light of the geo-political situation, Victor temporarily set aside his role as Precentor Martial in 3063.”
So this theory stands.
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There are things the courts can not deal with in a feudal society
Where is this written when it specifically relates to the FA and the LC courts? Book and Page Number Please.
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The government does NOT have to deal with telling their people why they tried to assassinate someone. Deny everything is SOP for rulers. Victor screwed up by admitting it.
Please once again Book and Page number.
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so you already know the cases of people being thrown in jail and said to be traitors, and no one had to know the reason why.
Once more Book and Page number as I have no knowledge of anyone undergoing this situation.
Prove that Victor didn't have the proof
Page 262-263 Endgame
Katherine – “It doesn’t matter what you want to believe, Yvonne, my charities and accomplishments will be made evident at whatever kind of trial you arrange. And I’tt be certain to show that Victor’s important evidence is nothing more than a twisted fabrication constructed to justify his armed aggression …..”
Victor – after informing Katherine that Dehaver was dead …someone smuggled poison to him …. “His (Dehaver) confession only supports the rest of the evidence we gathered, and it’s enough to be shown around, quietly and discreetly, to convice any of your remaining supporters that they really are better off forgetting you”
Problem remains evidence held in secret that cannot be ratified and investigated for its accuract cannot be considered to be evidence by the people!
As stated previously you need to consider this from the point of view of the average citizen and not from the point of view as being a part of Victor’s inner circle.
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Given the fact he learned from his parents, he definitely knew the responsibilities of command. Part of why he kept in the field.
If he understood anything about command he would have removed himself from the 10th and returned to the Capitol World.
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The LC did have issues with Victor, but the majority did not.
Then why did they fight so hard against Victor and his supporters during the Civil War.
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Funny how the people on worlds they removed Katherine's troops did not rise up in rebellion as soon as those forces left.
Funny how Victor had to use Warship to transfer her to Arc Royal and in more than one case had to use force to keep Katherine’s forces at bay. Endgame – Page 267
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Yet again, you do not seem to see that the government had people to make decisions, and the head ruler really isn't needed beyond appearances.
Show me any government where this occurs? And show me any IS leader that sits back and allows their government to do the work for them.
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Which is interesting as you say the General Estates can say Katherine can be archon, but say they can't put Adam in that position.
Please re-read everything written by me regarding how the rules of succession work.
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the media portraited her as incompetent.
And the media were proved correct when she did give up the throne to Katherine.
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And she started the tyrannical process of putting them down, as you said she had the right to do.
So allowing a military to mutiny is now allowable?
And the Legal ruler at that time (Katherine) is not allowed to restore law and order when they no longer obey the chain of command?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/08/20 12:47 PM
66.74.60.165
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Immoral leader? You mean consorting with one of the clans was considered great? Consorting with Sun Tzu is considered proper? You praise Comstar for replacing Thomas, because they didn't get prosecuted, but Victor is the demon because he did? Intel agents replace people for missions, sometimes they kill the person they replace. I hate that fact, but for some people, it is required to remove them from life. People like terrorists comes to mind here.
Katherine took the FS as well. It wasn't just about the LC. Victor had the right of winning, like you said about Katherine taking the FC thru manipulation and lies, to do as he thought was right. You want to say he had no power to join the rebellion, so the winning leader of the rebellion can do things like exile rulers. His biggest thing was he was the heir to the nation she ran. Best look at France with their revolts. I believe the term 'off with their head' was very common when rebels won. So yet again, history does not support your claims.
Where in history does it say the courts can deal with everything? Where are the courts when you want to send in an assassin to take out someone? Where is that information located in the game? How about diverting ship to punish those that peacefully or thru the leader of their region, refuse to follow a usurper? The General Estates backed Katherine not for making the LC better, but to line their pockets and gain more power. That is called an injustice of the courts. So you want lawyer talk, there you go. Intent is very much a part of trials.
Yet again, history of the world is against you. The only time a leader does anything like saying they ordered an assassination is if they get caught. There are a few exceptions with this. The civil war had it's own reasons that everyone knew. And Katherine broke the law by usurping the FS portion is a fact. The LC is a little more muddled, since the clause in the alliance paperwork. Which is why Melissa had to die. She would not have pulled the LC out of the alliance, as it was supposed to help all. And without the FS portion, the LC would have fallen to the clans much faster. The 4th war and 3039 war probably would not have been as large in scope, if they even happened.
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ghostrider
06/08/20 01:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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You mean blackmail is something those that supported Katherine want out in the public? Where their abuse of their position would destroy their lives, would be something those that supported Katherine would love to see? The fact that evidence is tied to them, and they go down, do you think they won't plea bargain, and spill their guts, only supporting and improving the evidence to date? Or them finding out Katherine was about to remove them as a threat to her power? Guess you really don't know how things work. If he did just release the information, it could very well have destroyed any chance of either nation surviving the purge. Again, feudalism's history at work.
Oh yeah. The evidence can be investigated. Part of why releasing it slowly to others happens. They can find out for themselves the truth. And as said before, Katherine would make a complete mockery of the judicial system, if they could even find impartial judges to try the case.
Again. Melissa was running the FC. Why would he need to return as long as she was? Still not answering the base of the question. He didn't have to. When she died, he was on the way to the clan homeworlds. And his decision there? To be like those under his command. They didn't get to go home because of the death of a family member, so he kept with the lead by example motto.
Fight so hard? Only the military really fought Victor. Again. No rebellions on worlds they took. Some joined him without a fight. More then a few units stayed neutral in the fight. So again. Where was the popular support wave that rose up to crush the rebellion?
The General Estates would have to decide things if the entire direct blood line of the rulers was wiped out. Adam was at least related to that. Not changing over to a new blood line. As Peter choose the successor so he could retire, they honored his request. I did not see anything where those closer to the line of succession stood up and demanded they be crowned. So for the canon story, this view is based on information that isn't there.
The media proved correct that Yvonne was incompetent? The FS ran fine with her at the head. The only issues that cropped up were fabrications and spun truths that Katherine sponsored. Again. Katherine attacking her own family in order to gain power for herself. No responsibility for family ties, as you said.
Ordering the full destruction of unit, sometimes without even ordering them to stand down is the right way to handle it? And this was a usurper doing the ordering. Those feeling like they are being loyal to the real leader, or the nation, not the current butt on the throne, had a right to say they would not abandon their posts. I did not see anywhere, that she went thru the chain of command. She just ordered them directly. Which violates the entire chain concept. How would they know it wasn't a ploy by the enemy?
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Requiem
06/08/20 07:48 PM
101.185.79.245
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Immoral leader?
As stated above Victor - In Totality what else could you call a leader who allows a child to die so far removed from his family and then replaces him with a substitute – from the Lyran perspective I believe the description of immoral is getting off light …..
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You praise Comstar for replacing Thomas
Sorry I have never done this …. What I did say was that the idea of Thomas surviving a large explosive within a heavily bricked building (with no windows and one door) as impossible – an explosion of this type, and in a room of this type, should have turned him into pink mist!
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I hate that fact, but for some people, it is required to remove them from life. People like terrorists comes to mind here.
A child who has done no wrong cannot be compared with a terrorist!
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Katherine took the FS as well. It wasn't just about the LC.
FACT – (Remember take this from the point of view of the average citizen not from the point of view of reading the novels)
Yvonne offered the throne to Katherine when she believed she was incompetent for the job – she lost trust of the community – she could not even hold onto the position for a few more months until Victor returned.
Victor however came with a military force at his back.
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the winning leader of the rebellion can do things like exile rulers
Correct – the winning leaders can impose penalties upon the looser – just remember who the winners are FS – Yvonne and LA – Arthur – in both cases Victor has abdicated his right to rule.
Thus Victor DOES NOT have the right to impose any penalty upon Katherine!
As for the French Revolution – 1789 to 1790 – they overthrew the monarchy and took the government – so this cannot be compared with FedCom civil war ….
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Where in history does it say the courts can deal with everything?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States
… all issues that require a final arbiter of the law.
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The General Estates backed Katherine not for making the LC better, but to line their pockets and gain more power.
Supposition …. Prove it – Book and Page Number.
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And Katherine broke the law by usurping the FS portion is a fact.
Supposition again …. Fact is Yvonne gave her the throne therefore it is LEGAL.
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Which is why Melissa had to die.
Logic says otherwise …. Only Victor has to be removed and Katherine as next in line by the rules of succession becomes First Archon – Princess over the FedCom.
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The 4th war and 3039 war probably would not have been as large in scope, if they even happened
How can something that happened in the distant future affect past events – does someone have a time machine? (satire)
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You mean blackmail is something those that supported Katherine want out in the public?
Again …. Prove it – Book and Page Number.
The LA is acting within a Machiavellian / Democratic system - when has graft ever not been part of the system when large monetary projects have been on the offer?
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Which is why Melissa had to die. She would not have pulled the LC out of the alliance, as it was supposed to help all.
Personal opinion?
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The evidence can be investigated.
Yes it can …. The problem is that all of Victors so called evidence is circumstantial – none of t can be tied back to Katherine as per the rules of law …. And by not allowing the all of the FedCom people to vet his evidence proves that he is committing a cover up!
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if they could even find impartial judges to try the case.
This is why they are appointed to these positions.
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Melissa was running the FC. Why would he need to return as long as she was?
Died – 19 June 3055 – so why would Victor purposefully make his throne and the FedCom vulnerable from this point forward by remaining with the 10th?
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Fight so hard? Only the military really fought Victor.
Keep reading … some of those battles were over logistics supplies … thus he had to take what he needed as the civilian CEOs and their corporations were also against him … thus the only way he could keep his rebellion going was to steal them!
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The General Estates would have to decide things if the entire direct blood line of the rulers was wiped out. Adam was at least related to that.
The entire line was not wiped out – Arthur had a son! Thus when Arthur is no longer Archon it is supposed to go to his son!
I have even supplied a link to the family tree and thus the line of succession.
Adam was somewhere in the 100’s to be considered for the position of Archon
This is where TPTB staged a coup on the LA to allow Adam to become the next Archon – it is a completely illegal move!
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The media proved correct that Yvonne was incompetent? The FS ran fine with her at the head.
Then why did Yvonne give the throne to Katherine? Why did her advisers allow her go through with this? Why didn’t her Dukes try to convince her that this was wrong? ….. as a leader she is a basket case!
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Ordering the full destruction of unit, sometimes without even ordering them to stand down is the right way to handle it? And this was a usurper doing the ordering.
1st These units disobeyed the Chain of Command – and in may cases they opened fire first against their fellow units on world (who support Katherine) and who were sent there to replace them.
Thus they are in the wrong – they have mutinied – they did not stand down – they broke the law!
Thus Katherine, as the commanding officer of the FedCom Military, is within her right to demand they stand down by force if necessary!
Again showing a personal view as being a part of the Victor camp and not as an average citizen on the side line?
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Those feeling like they are being loyal to the real leader, or the nation, not the current butt on the throne, had a right to say they would not abandon their posts.
They MUST obey the Chain of Command – they CANNOT make up their own orders just because they believe they are in the right.
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I did not see anywhere, that she went thru the chain of command. She just ordered them directly
As First Archon-Princess she has the highest rank within all the military thus yes she can give orders – and no this does not violate the chain of command it reinforces the chain of command –
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How would they know it wasn't a ploy by the enemy?
Verification codes.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/08/20 07:58 PM)
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ghostrider
06/08/20 11:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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I call a leader that allows a child to die, then replace them as most any leader running operations against an enemy. I don't like or agree with this, but it is something that has been done more then a few times.
I think that the weapons flowing to their military to keep them safe from the clans is would be more supportive then you want. And as said before. If it worked, and the government kept with it, they could have taken the FWL without that much effort. But again. This seems to just want to focus on an obsession.
And yet again, you say continue to say that replacing Thomas isn't an issue as Comstar got away with it.
A child who has done no wrong cannot be compared with a terrorist!
How did this statement come from this: Intel agents replace people for missions, sometimes they kill the person they replace. I hate that fact, but for some people, it is required to remove them from life. People like terrorists comes to mind here.
Twisting the facts like you are, the fact that Joshua was only living on life support and wasn't even there was why they let him pass. They did not smother him with a pillow, or anything else. They did what most would do when there is no more chance of life. And Joshua would not have survived the first jump, much less all that were needed to get into FWL space, much less to Thomas. This seems to be missing from your argument. And saying prove it is the same thing you need to do. Prove he would have. You can't because he wouldn't survive.
Fact. Yvonne did not lost the faith of the public as suggested. She was conned into thinking she did. More then a few would have figured Katherine did something to take full control over the FC, such as blackmail Yvonne. But this counters your view, so isn't possible at all. Only viable vision, including canon is yours.
Keep trying. More then a few revolutions put up puppet rulerships, while the power stayed with the one that lead the victory. The fact that they did not print every last conversation that was done, says your comprehensive reading is only putting in things that aren't there. And as Katherine killed their mother, he had every right to decide the fate of his sister. It was stupid that canon didn't run this way, but they had plans. Oh yeah. No one knew Victor would actually stay away from the position afterwards. And with this, more then a few should have shot her. Morgan Kell being a big one.
When is it legal for someone to give away someone elses property or rights? OOOOOPS. Guess that legal argument has no bite to it. Yvonne was a regent, not the princess of the FS.
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ghostrider
06/09/20 12:32 AM
66.74.60.165
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… and yet ComStar got away with it! This is the difference, their agent was able to act with impunity ….
This is one of your statements, which says that it was ok for Comstar to place an imposter on the throne. This is condoning such actions. You praised this as they got away with it. So yes. You did say that.
Maybe you need to see what is going on now. The supreme court has become a political arm of a certain person, and they are reversing old convictions to fit the new political scene. There is more then a few things they can not judge. If you think they can, then they could remove a president and place in someone they like more. Or remove the FDA, or CIA. They can't. So no. They do not have ultimate power to say what is right or wrong.
Following Melissa's character, and the fact she RAN the FC, there really isn't opinion but fact Melissa would not have dissolved the FC. She would not have left the Terran March to fend for themselves. And with this, would not have even allowed Gemini to be initiated. There would have been more time to train Victor properly. Do you think she would just sit back and let Katherine start her crap and not do anything? Retired Archons have come out of retirement to take the reins when one of their successors started becoming a tyrant. But again. Katherine would never have gotten that power.
You mean comprehensive reading did tell you that quietly talking to her supporters would remove their support for her doesn't mean she was blackmailing them, or allowing them to break the laws for their own benefit? So why would he do that privately? Oh yeah. That would mean having to actually believe Katherine was a tyrant.
Being appointed to a case and being impartial is necessary to judge it properly. At that time, there would have been no judges that could do this in the LC. So where do you get they can be appointed. All would benefit if they ruled one way or another. The trail would constantly be a mistrial. Maybe that law degree you have needs to be returned.
Victor thought his family would do the job until he returned from his missions. He was mislead to believing that Katherine wasn't the person she turned out to be. So vulnerable is no where near what happened. No foreign agent seized the throne, though one of the regents did conspire with them. So this is a wrong conclusion that it was vulnerable.
So they did not resist them being taken? Doesn't that go counter to all people rising up to revolt on worlds taken by the clans? And with that, how many were worried that Katherine would destroy them if they had willingly given up those supplies? She destroyed a few that resisted in recognizing her as leader of the FC.
Actually, the idea that Katherine was ruler was NOT what the average person thought in a more then a few areas. The units that were fired on where loyal units to the nation, not her. As much as you want to say she was the legal ruler, she was not. She was regent, not Archon. So pulling the LC out of the alliance is illegal. The estates conspired and committed an illegal act to recognize her are ruler. They also showed they were not impartial for the most part, and those that decided against her were punished. This is not a free society, but a dictatorship.
Only in a dictatorship does one commit genocide on a unit that said the order was one they could not obey. So the entire LC, then FC was turned into a dictatorship. That violates the entire founding principals of either state.
Verification codes? Interesting as those codes were not as secured as you want to believe. More then a few times, a forged order went out and was obeyed, letting the enemy win. And even with this, why would they believe the ruler would authorize them to head to the front lines, and replace them with a unit that was better equipped to deal with the clans? Or strand them in the middle of now where, especially when they knew it was to destroy them? Oh yeah. Obey or die.
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Requiem
06/09/20 07:41 AM
101.185.79.245
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And yet again, you say continue to say that replacing Thomas isn't an issue as Comstar got away with it
As far a s canon is concerned he did get away with having an imposter until the Jihad era.
As far as I (and science) consider that a large explosive within a solid brick room with no windows and just one door is that everyone within the room would have become pink mist! Thus the idea of him surviving is all but impossible.
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Twisting the facts like you are, the fact that Joshua was only living on life support and wasn't even there was why they let him pass.
…. And refusing to even attempt to return him to his family …. How much warning did the medical profession give Victor? ….. and how long would it take to create a pony express to the FWL?
Someone should have asked Victor when he was old and had children of his own whether he would have gone through what he did when he was younger with regards to Joshua? My bet he would have been thoroughly embarrassed by what he did.
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Yvonne did not lost the faith of the public as suggested. She was conned into thinking she did.
… and being the basket case that she was she just handed over the throne!
How many protests were written about when it came to Katherine taking over the FC throne – I cannot remember one quote that was made on this subject! Did even one media organization support Yvonne? – no one will ever know as the level of detailed information has never been provided.
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And as Katherine killed their mother, he had every right to decide the fate of his sister.
First – taking it from the point of view of complete knowledge obtained within the Novels and not how an average person on the street with limited knowledge would understand.
Second – from a legal perspective as Victor has abdicated he has NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER – he is within Lyran Space thus only the Lyran Judicial system / Archon can make a determination as to Katherine’s future – by not going down this path Victor is GUILTY of assisting Vlad to kidnap a Lyran citizen (Katherine) ….
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Regent
Look at the law –
The Regent is the title held by a noble WHO RULES in the name of the King, Queen etc. because the rightful ruler is a child, incapacitated or otherwise incapable of ruling with any degree of force.
The Regent HAS THE TOTAL LEGAL AUTHORITY OF THE RULER UNTIL THE TRUE RULER ONCE MORE IS ABLE TO RETURN TO THE THRONE.
This is exactly the same situation as is the President of the US required an operation, a form is signed, the VP takes over – then in the future when the president is once ore able to resume her/his position - when the second Document is signed - the President once more assigns her/his duties. And whilst the VP assumes the mantle of the President they have the full powers as that of the President.
Thus Yvonne is quite within her legal authority as Regent to hand over the Crown to Katherine and there is nothing anyone can do to stop her as Katherine is still the legal heir to the Federated Commonwealth.
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The supreme court has become a political arm of a certain person, and they are reversing old convictions to fit the new political scene.
Since when? …. You could even appoint new Judges to the bench in an effort to find impartiality ….
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Retired Archons have come out of retirement to take the reins when one of their successors started becoming a tyrant
Which one and for what reason ….
The removal Victor – Katherine will have the power it is just a matter of time.
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The trail would constantly be a mistrial.
Under what reason?
The Jury cannot reach a unanimous verdict;
A Juror committed a misconduct;
The Jury was improperly drawn;
The Jury was provided evidence it should not have had; and
A key figure in the Trial becomes unavailable.
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So vulnerable is no where near what happened. No foreign agent seized the throne, though one of the regents did conspire with them. So this is a wrong conclusion that it was vulnerable.
Sorry but I can’t interpret this and the next paragraph ….. Yvonne was not vulnerable – none of Katherine’s agents conspired to produce reports that would indicate discontent with Yvonne that would make her reluctant to be on the throne – but someone else conspired with her to give up the throne?
Katherine interfered with logistics causing people to fear that she would destroy them because she wanted those logistics.
Sorry but I do not understand what this relates to?
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The estates conspired and committed an illegal act to recognize her are ruler.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lyran_Commonwealth
- the Estates General ratifies the position of Archon
- the Estates General has since grown into a true parliament
- the Estates General works with the Council and the Archon on policy compromises for the good of the state
- The Archon is the head-of-state of the Lyran state. They are also the commander-in-chief of all Lyran military forces, including local militias and private armies, and has the authority to make any and all decisions relating to domestic and foreign policy.
What the Estates General did was all above board and legal!
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This is not a free society, but a dictatorship.
Please prove it – Book and page number ….. for I have yet to read anything that suggests the individual persons liberties were ever curtailed under Katherine’s ruler-ship of either the LA or the FS.
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Only in a dictatorship does one commit genocide on a unit that said the order was one they could not obey.
What else is expected when a military unit does not obey the chain of command and opens fire on the legal unit sent to replace them? Legally, if the unit supporting Victor had attacked one that supports Katherine then they are guilty of mutiny – Katherine is well within her rights to have the belligerent unit who started this fight brought to heel
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Verification codes? Interesting as those codes were not as secured as you want to believe. More then a few times, a forged order went out and was obeyed, letting the enemy win. And even with this, why would they believe the ruler would authorize them to head to the front lines, and replace them with a unit that was better equipped to deal with the clans? Or strand them in the middle of now where, especially when they knew it was to destroy them? Oh yeah. Obey or die.
If communicating is this bad then how can Victor remain on the front lines with the 10th and at the same time communicate with his Government – Does Victor’s Government communications come via different method than that of communications for the Military?
Thus if communication is that bad Victor is definitely endangering the FedCom Government.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/10/20 03:38 AM
66.74.60.165
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You praised the replacement of Thomas, and condemned Victor. Victor did not do it to take over the FWL. That is the big difference. And you continue to say that Joshua should have been sent home, but would have died quickly on the trip. That would be murder, knowing he would not survive the trip. And it is very doubtful Thomas would have gone to see him before he passed. No matter who's child it was, having them live with a disease that they will never get better, and only get worse, the human thing to do is let them pass. You think it is better the cause more pain and have him die in space, that is your choice. I don't think many would support that view.
By the way, it would have been far more monsterous to even attempt to send him.
It seems you miss so many facts that are printed, then want to know where they were at. Both the Draconis march and Capellen march had protests when Katherine took over. It is part of WHY she started trying to starve them out with the trick of missed schedules and such. And yet you miss that as well. Maybe comprehensive reading to you is just looking at the cover and saying it was read. For most, it involves reading the WHOLE book, and the words in there, then judging what was written.
So Victor had no right to give up Katherine to Vlad, yet you say he had NO authority to even hold her. He had no authority over any unit or region. So what could Victor do? He didn't command any of the units as he abdicated. So by even trying to refuse, he would set off a war that he did not have any authority to do? Logic fail here.
Until Victor is incapacitated or dead, he is the heir to the throne. Katherine is second. He did return and what do you know, his position was usurped by another. Where does the law sit here? In reality, with the person that gives the judges the best bribes. The taking of the throne is completely illegal. So all the bs saying she was legal, isn't correct. And as in the past, were usurpers and the stoolies, she ended up losing. Her efforts to seize the power, ended up destroying the FC. Spin it as it makes you think it was right for her to do so, it isn't.
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ghostrider
06/10/20 03:58 AM
66.74.60.165
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The current judges being put into position in the supreme court, are done so as they are judging for certain people. They are not doing anything for law or the rule of law. They are doing so, as they can allow certain people to commit crimes and let them off. The dropping of the case where someone lied to congress under oath is only one of a few things going on. Now enough of the supreme court.
A matter of time. You said that waiting is not her style. So how long would it be, before she went after Melissa? Oh yeah. She went after her when she found out Victor asked her to stay on a while longer. That gave Victor more time to become the hero of the realm, making removing him that much harder.
Katherine would make sure that the truth was not told, and lie about everything, until her loyalists in power, could stop the trial cold. Witnesses would turn up dead, and mysterious fires could burn down any location that stored any information on the case. And to be honest, why would you hold a public trial for a traitor? Consorting with the enemy is being a traitor. But then it was not just one but two, with one of them being multiple times. In this, she tried to destroy her own realm to get at Victor.
People were not suppressed under Katherine? Go read the books. This is one of the biggest bs statements so far.
From the wiki on the FC war: When a local political leader was deemed dissenting or disloyal, Katherine punished his or her whole planet with economic sanctions, such as rerouting shipments of luxury goods. This led to civil unrest, sometimes against the political leaders of the respective planets and sometimes against inner or outer enemies, or even herself.
Katherine also regularly bypassed the military chain of command and gave direct orders to units, creating confusion and encouraging cronyism. Additionally her orders were often so vague, that the commanding officers knew what she wanted, but all the blame would be put on them if anything went wrong. These units were used to restore order on the aforementioned rebellious planets and to secure planets with important installations. One such planet was Kathil with its shipyards. Two chains of command collided: Sharp words were traded and each side considered the other as traitors. In the end, open warfare was inevitable.
No ones rights were suppressed. Go read the books.
Wow. You mean Victor had someone actually carrying the more sensitive messages, instead of just sending them thru Comstar? And as written above in the wiki, she did NOT give orders that were clear and concise.
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Requiem
06/10/20 01:01 PM
101.185.79.245
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You praised the replacement of Thomas
Refer 06/08/20 07:48 PM
“Sorry I have never done this …. What I did say was that the idea of Thomas surviving a large explosive within a heavily bricked building (with no windows and one door) as impossible – an explosion of this type, and in a room of this type, should have turned him into pink mist!”
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Victor did not do it to take over the FWL.
Bred for War Page 124 –Thomas (fake) - “My son is dead and Victor Davion has Killed Him.”
Question: How did Thomas know this was Victor’s endgame, all he knew is when you replace someone you do it to replace them permanently – that is the reason why he the fake Thomas replaced the real Thomas by ComStar.
All he knew was that Victor was in on the Fix and as such he acted accordingly.
The attempt to get him home to be with his family is not murder – it is the only compassionate act he should have done.
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It seems you miss so many facts that are printed, then want to know where they were at. Both the Draconis march and Capellen march had protests when Katherine took over.
As stated previously – Book and page number.
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yet you say he had NO authority to even hold her
Where is this written that I said he had no right to hold her? This is a straight prisoner transfer – Department of Justice and Archon authorization to transfer the prisoner from the Federated Suns to that of Arc Royal..
Though the question must be why there? There are many far more secure worlds where she could have been placed?
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Until Victor is incapacitated or dead, he is the heir to the throne. Katherine is second. He did return and what do you know, his position was usurped by another. Where does the law sit here?
How did their Grandmother (on their mother’s side) get to become Archon? Coup d’tetat – against Alesandro.
However Katherine’s were both through legal means – The Estates General Ratified her as Archon and Yvonne as Regent gave her the Federated Suns.
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Oh yeah. She went after her when she found out Victor asked her to stay on a while longer.
Bread for War 21 May 3057 –Katherine telling Caitlin that Ryan Steiner killed Melissa – that he believed she was destroying the Realm when it came to the question of dealing with the Clans.
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That gave Victor more time to become the hero of the realm, making removing him that much harder.
Difficulty has not changed – he is still the 10th / he still has issues when it comes to Omika.
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Katherine would make sure that the truth was not told
And Victor is such a paragon of virtue he would never lie or create false documents or fake children in a hospital to get his way (satire)
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People were not suppressed under Katherine? Go read the books. This is one of the biggest bs statements so far.
As stated many times before – Book and page number.
As stated previously – Katherine is the ruler therefore she holds the highest rank – thus iif she deems it necessary to send a personal message to a commanding officer of a unit she well within her rights to do so!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/10/20 10:05 PM
66.74.60.165
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… and yet ComStar got away with it! This is the difference, their agent was able to act with impunity …. posts 5/28//2020 at 5:03 pm.
This very much sounds like praising Comstar because they didn't get caught. So you have praised them for doing so.
Please. We know you would have said he murdered Joshua if he had tried to send him home, as the first jump probably would have killed him. He would not have survived to get out of the Capellen march at best.
But the statement that Thomas did not know about his intentions until after he found out his son was dead is very true. Victor did say he did it to keep weapons flowing to the troops, but then being believed at that time was almost impossible.
Go back and reread your posts. You said he had no right to do anything to her as he had abdicated. Anything says more then a few things including just holding her. As you said, he was not part of the FC.
Katrina did NOT have the general estates go against her uncle to give her the title. He resigned. And yes, that is because of blackmail. So if it was a coup, then it was a bloodless one that the civilians didn't find out about.
It is not legal to cover for someone and then give away their rights. A CEO working for a company while the owner is gone, can not legally give the company to anyone if they are NOT the owner. Just can't do it. Being Yvonne was not the owner, she can not legally give away the first prince spot. And Katherine was only CEO of the LC. She seized full control illegally.
And with this, you say that Kell and others swore an oath to Katherine, but leave out the fact that everyone swore an oath to Victor when his mother was killed. So you want to harp on oath breakers, start there.
How does her lying to Kaitlin change the fact that she went after her mother when Victor asked her to stay on?
And people tend to view a war hero as someone that is better suited to run their government in the war torn IS. And had he succeeded with removing the clans, would have been in all of their hearts. Even just showing he was willing to die for the FC was enough. He did not send others to their deaths and sit in the capital drinking fine wines to celebrate their deaths. Missing this angle on things, or just ignoring it as it stops more of the accusations?
From the wiki on the FC war: When a local political leader was deemed dissenting or disloyal, Katherine punished his or her whole planet with economic sanctions, such as rerouting shipments of luxury goods. This led to civil unrest, sometimes against the political leaders of the respective planets and sometimes against inner or outer enemies, or even herself.
This is in my last post. Punishing the whole planet for someone's opinion is suppression. How about just being VEIWED as disloyal? This does not even say the planetary ruler but local political leader.
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Requiem
06/10/20 11:10 PM
101.185.79.245
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Quote:
This very much sounds like praising Comstar because they didn't get caught. So you have praised them for doing so.
… and yet this is in no way praising …. It is a statement of fact!
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We know you would have said he murdered Joshua if he had tried to send him home, as the first jump probably would have killed him.
And yet people with medical issues jump all the time …. Soldiers via a MASH unit being sent home for more extensive surgery comes to mind.
It all comes down to when Joshua was diagnosed as being terminal and the time it would take to conduct a pony express to the FWL.
Still does not change the evidence Victor with motive of forethought allowed Joshua to die alone just because it did not match with his political expedience issues.
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You said he had no right to do anything to her as he had abdicated. Anything says more then a few things including just holding her.
First, Victor was just transferring her to her final destination.
Second, when she stepped one foot on Arc-Royal as Duke of the Planet – she became Duke Kell’s / The Judicial Department of the Lyran Alliance and the Archon’s problem.
Third, Victor and everyone else within the room who assisted in Katherine’s abduction (as she is still a Lyran Citizen at this stage) by Khan Vlad of Clan Wolf is guilty of committing a crime – assisting in the abduction of a Lyran Citizen by a foreign national. What makes it even more heinous, is that at the time of her incarceration she was a Prisoner of War – thus not only is Victor guilty of abetting her kidnapper, her is also guilty of violating her rights under POW articles – thus making everyone within the room guilty of war crimes against a POW.
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So if it was a coup, then it was a bloodless one that the civilians didn't find out about.
Except that it was written within every history book.
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Yvonne was not the owner, she cannot legally give away the first prince spot.
Except this has nothing to do with corporation law – and has everything to do with that of Regency Law.
Apples and Oranges.
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How does her lying to Kaitlin change the fact that she went after her mother when Victor asked her to stay on?
Except that Katherine informed Kaitlin that she had nothing to do with the assassination it was conducted by Ryan and Ryan alone – yes they were working together on other political objectives – by Ryan did this strike on his own as he feared what her mother was doing in regards to the Clan issue!
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And people tend to view a war hero as someone that is better suited to run their government in the war torn IS.
Can I laugh now? ….. look at every IS leader that remains of the front line for an extended period of time, how often are they killed off thus creating an issue with regards to succession and the transference of power … then compare it to those leaders who remain on their capitol world – on the majority they live far older and more productive lives.
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had he succeeded with removing the clans, would have been in all of their hearts.
Except he agreed that they could only kill off one Clan – and on return to the Inner Sphere he did nothing to preserving the new SLDF and directing that force against a second and then Third etc Clan until all of the belligerent Clans had been removed from the IS …. Thus proving he was only able to act in a half ______ manner and is quite incompetent as a ruler for not preserving the security of the realm.
Question since Eisenhower when was the last ruler a military figure?
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When a local political leader was deemed dissenting or disloyal, Katherine punished his or her whole planet with economic sanctions, such as rerouting shipments of luxury goods.
What did the ruler do what was their crime? Military Embargo’s have been around for a very long period of time and are still being used today in order to effect political change.
This is a normal political tool … https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions
Embargoing a country is a far better tactic than the alternative – sending in the troops.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/11/20 02:15 AM
66.74.60.165
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The exclamation point at the end of got away with it sounds like a praise. You didn't condemn it and defended what they did.
Joshua was diagnosed as terminal before he was sent to the FS. They were hoping to be able to change that, but only allowed him a few more years of life. Joshua was not killed to advance Victor's political agenda. He was kept alive since the time Hanse said the NAIS would look after Joshua as a way to get the weapons needed to fight the clans. Yet again, another thing stated that is wrong. Read the books word for word. Stop adding in your words that aren't there. It continues to show up in your statements that you haven't read the books.
The fact that you claim Victor had no authority over anything shuts down the accusation he gave Katherine to Vlad. Face the facts here. He didn't have the ability to say the FC would fight Vlad. The fact is, he did not need to have the Wolves striking at the FC at this time as he knew the forces that remained would be depleted beyond protecting the realms. Even Phelan knew this as he did not even bother to challenge for Katherine to stay in prison. It would have given him the chance to kill Vlad, once and for all. That might have actually allowed the Exiles to go back in the main wolves.
So you say that a prisoner the killed their mother, destroyed the FC, then proceeded to continue her reign of terror on people that didn't drop to their knees the moment she walked into a room had any rights? Honestly, she should have been executed or put in a real jail, where those the put in there could do to her what she did to them.
How does Katherine telling Kaitlin change the FACT, Katherine had her mother killed? Ryan was blamed by Katherine but it doesn't change the fact Katherine had her assassinated. Moran knew she killed Melissa.
Still not addressing the fact that Melissa was in charge while Victor remained in the field. Only thing that destroyed him learning was Melissa's assassination. And even then, he was not the low level sneak that you want as a leader. He was more upfront honest. Had he not been, he would have blamed Katherine for a lot more then what he did.
Had Victor proceeded to remove the clans he would have been a war hero. This means the Falcons and Wolves from inside the LC portion. Not sure why you jumped ahead when the statement was about his continuing to be with the 10th instead of being on the throne. Removing the one clan was a DIRECT result from the reformed SL. This was AFTER he asked Melissa to remain in power, and kept fighting.
Stop the bs of the excuse of comprehensive reasoning. When a leader said no, she punished ALL on the world. That means even her loyalists.
What did the ruler do that was a crime?
Told her he wasn't going to become a patsy for her. That he was not going to kneel for the person thinking they were the new coming from the heavens. And she did send in the troops to destroy those very leaders as well as anyone in her way, once she realized they were not going to submit because of her actions. This is part of what started the civil war. Guess this point is difficult to understand. HER actions cause the war, not Victor.
And where in history is there a regent that legally gave away a title while the actual person was away? Titles were stolen, as well as leaders being exiled, but from what I know, not a single regent gave away a title. This was done in the story line to move it along, as there wasn't much else they could do to bring about the civil war.
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Requiem
06/11/20 05:02 AM
101.185.79.245
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Since when did an exclamation mark conform to praise when making a statement of fact?
An exclamation mark in this case is used to show emphasis.
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Leukemia
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Joshua_Marik
Type of and stage of will have a massive determinant in treatment and length of life.
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Victor had no authority over anything
Facts,
1. FedCom no longer exists – it is now FS and LA;
2. Both realms leaders have been enthroned following the ratification of Victors abdication documents;
3. Victor is now once more with the ComGuard;
4. Victor is only transferring a prisoner of war from one realm to another following Yvonne exiling Katherine for life.
5. As Victor has abdicated his position of both realms he has no standing whatsoever as to conducting foreign policy or Judicial policy for either the LA or the FS as he is not a member of either’s Government and he is also no longer a citizen of either state as he is now a citizen of ComStar.
Thus in this situation only the Duke Kell has the authority.
Also it should have been obvious that for the Wolves to Fight the LA they would have to go through the Falcons – and any attack upon the LA would have to factor in the Falcons attacking the Wolves rear in regards to multiple Trials of possessions etc. Plus there is also the possibility of the Bears engaging in Trials of possession for Wolf territory at the same time.
There is also the internal Clan Wolf political situation that must be considered Vlad is acting in a very un-Clan like manner when it comes to requesting Katherine – something Phelan (who is present) should have pointed out.
When adding this all up there is a very good chance that Vlad is bluffing as he doesn’t have the ability to conduct a sustained war – Plus there is the fact that the ARDC is more than capable of engaging any clan force Vlad sends their way (as they were not part of the Civil War and of which Phelan’s Wolves in Exile would have been happy to assist).
Thus as Victor has no standing he should have kept his mouth shut and Duke Kell should have given the reply.
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So you say that a prisoner the killed their mother, destroyed the FC, then proceeded to continue her reign of terror on people that didn't drop to their knees the moment she walked into a room had any rights?
First – this statement is from the point of view of all the information from the Novels and not an average Lyran citizen.
Second – Under Law she is innocent until proven guilty in a court of Law.
Third – She is also a Prisoner of War and as such is afforded certain considerations.
Fourth – also conducting additional research - As the former Leader of the FedCom – Katherine can also claim immunity as she was the leader of a realm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity
Thus making it all but impossible for Victor or anyone to bring her to justice.
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Ryan was blamed by Katherine but it doesn't change the fact Katherine had her assassinated.
It does change the fact that Katherine is asserting that Ryan did it and she only learnt of it after the fact.
The Fact still remains that the so called evidence is circumstantial and is NOT the smoking gun.
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Moran knew she killed Melissa.
No, Morgan chose to believe the circumstantial evidence and Victor’s narrative.
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Still not addressing the fact that Melissa was in charge while Victor remained in the field.
And what happens when Melissa is no longer there and Victor remains in the field? Katherine is in charge.
There is also the point that Victor was late for his own mother’s funeral when all the other children were able to make the funeral – insensitive much?
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This was AFTER he asked Melissa to remain in power, and kept fighting.
This was after his mother’s death – his sister taking the Lyran Throne – his war with the FWL and the CC – his abandonment of the Chaos March – him refusing to remain on the Capitol World and remaining with the 10th (a Lyran unit now within the FS) – him refusing to rebuild his military during the 15 year truce period …..
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What did the ruler do that was a crime?
Never qualified within any of the books thus it could be anything ….
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HER actions cause the war, not Victor.
Sorry, no this is inaccurate – with Peter’s assassination Victor blamed Katherine and declared War – and a point that Victor was never able to prove this just adds to the conspiracy theory that Victor stated the Civil War just to get back at her for splitting the FedCom in two due to his actions with Joshua Marik.
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And where in history is there a regent that legally gave away a title while the actual person was away?
How about Caroline of Ansbach (1683 – 1737) and every other regent who gave up their position for the rightful ruler?
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This was done in the story line to move it along, as there wasn't much else they could do to bring about the civil war.
And yet a good author would have multiple methods of starting a civil war rather than the what was provided and was never followed through because they had lost the plot … and as such a sub standard story was manufactured.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/11/20 11:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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OH! So Victor DID have the authority to put Katherine in a jail cell. Hmmm. Another misconception put to rest.
As said, Yvonne gave him the authority to jail Katherine. No one said he could start a fight.
Since Katherine was in FS space, she was under the FS laws. And Katherine can not claim immunity as she was the loser in a civil war. Which may well be one of the reasons she was not put on trial. Twisting words of laws get more then a few guilty people off the hook.
The statement was Victor remained in the field while his mother was still alive. It was not said it was after she died. So trying to twist this is going to get called out from now on.
First off, the war was already going. Victor joining it only gave then unity.
Second, Victor's reason was based on an attempt that was later proven wrong. But that still doesn't change the fact that Katherine was destroying lives that didn't just bow down to her. As the print said In the wiki, Hasek did not recognize her as head of the FS, as well as others. The dictator did not bother trying to resolve this in any civil manner but started trying to starve some out. Then sent in the troops. She was doing this BEFORE the war started.
No one said they were good authors. They are game developers. The ones writing the novels didn't keep with the rule set, so there is that issue. But again. As much as you say it isn't, it is their story for their game. They could have Alexander Kerensky be clone thru the DNA they have, and it would stick.
But there is something that needs to be addressed.
Joshua died when they pulled the plug on the life support. You claim Victor was going to use a double to take the FWL throne.
Katherine killed her mother in order to take the throne.
Which one is worse? Killing family to take power, or letting someone die, and if you go be the average person, trying to take an enemy's power base?
The only horror factor was the fact Joshua was a child. A single child. It isn't like assassination plots haven't killed them before, like using bombs, or battles doing so. Millions died in the past and millions more will die in the future.
So again. Who is really worse?
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Requiem
06/11/20 04:07 PM
101.185.79.245
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Quote:
Yvonne gave him the authority to jail Katherine
No, Yvonne requested of ComStar (Victor) to transfer the prisoner (Katherine) out of the FS (where she was now exiled for life) and transport her to the LA world of Arc Royal, where she was to be held for the remainder of her life.
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Katherine cannot claim immunity as she was the loser in a civil war
Actually – she may be able to claim sovereign immunity – but this still doesn’t change the issue that there is no evidence whatsoever to charge her ….on either the death of her Mother or that of her brother Peter.
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The statement was Victor remained in the field while his mother was still alive.
He is supposed to the Heir of the FedCom and he wants to remain with the 10th in highly dangerous situations – especially since the last time this occurred he had to be dragged onto a Dropship and removed from the field of battle.
Then when he became the leader of the FedCom he still believed it was acceptable is what should be called out.
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First off, the war was already going. Victor joining it only gave then unity.
This is historically inaccurate – what is happening is various units are in the process of mutinying against the chain of command – it is only with Victor’s inclusion does these petty mutineers receive political accountability.
It is Victor’s actions alone that started the Civil War.
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Second, Victor's reason was based on an attempt that was later proven wrong.
So, Victor’s reason for starting the Civil War, Peter’s apparent assassination, was proven not to have been on Katherine’s orders. Thus Victor’s only real reason to continue the war is petty vengeance as he does NOT have any evidence as to sister’s guilt.
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But that still doesn't change the fact that Katherine was destroying lives that didn't just bow down to her.
Show me any ruler that had a 100% favorable poll – plus she is well within her legal rights to change shipping in the event of an emergency.
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Hasek did not recognize her as head of the FS, as well as others.
Katherine is the legal head of the Fed Com – Hasek is her Duke and as such owes her his fealty – if he does not provide this then Katherine is well within her legal rights to bring him to heel if he steps over the line.
And if you keep reading on Hasek took great pains NOT to step over the line.
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Then sent in the troops. She was doing this BEFORE the war started.
As stated many times she is well within her legal authority as the CO of the FedCom Military to put down a mutinous unit.
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No one said they were good authors. They are game developers. The ones writing the novels didn't keep with the rule set, so there is that issue.
Where are the editors and fact checkers? In other novels of this type authors take great pains to make sure the facts are accurate and believable given the circumstances their characters are portrayed within.
If a statement / event was made in the past it cannot be ignored for future events within the game just because it is creating interesting dialog / setting. There are rules to the societies they have created and as such it is expected that these rules be adhered to – if you begin modifying these rules because they become inconvenient down the line then the entire story has now become a pointless diatribe.
You cannot just go changing social, technological, military norms just because they suddenly get inconvenient – lives like that, very messy – I expect the rules and the story to be adhered to based upon past assumptions made. You cannot just change the universe just because you want a certain event to occur and you are given the reason ….just because …..
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Joshua died when they pulled the plug on the life support. You claim Victor was going to use a double to take the FWL throne. Katherine killed her mother in order to take the throne. Which one is worse?
Question which shade of black is darker? … this is a personal choice and as such cannot be compared to another person’s sensibilities …. And attempting to rationalize the issue does in no way make it somehow acceptable just because it has occurred in the past ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/11/20 11:51 PM
66.74.60.165
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Prove the fact that Victor had no evidence. Supposition does not counter the writers saying that he did have it, and was showing it to her supporters. In the alt, there isn't an issue, but you continue to say canon is wrong and that things you don't like, didn't happen that way. I have to take the writers word that the story is correct, and anything else is just trying change this fact.
It is his right to be in the field for as long as he wants. I did not hear of anything bad happening, besides Katherine's tactics that happened when he was. It does suggest that the ruling family was not really needed, as the government works without their input. Nondi and Tormano ran it while Katherine was out of contact. It ran well enough with Victor out as well.
It is the person who steps in and says that killing people you don't like is at fault for a civil war? This is completely against all moral teachings. The tyrant that does kill to force people to worship them is the one at fault for civil wars. But given some of the other responses, I can see why this isn't the case in your opinion.
At the time he stepped in, he did not know Peter was alive. So the idea he knew this before he stepped in was wrong. And the civil war had already started. As much as you don't like this fact, the only thing he did was give those opposing Katherine unity in their opposition. And once he was involved, their was no getting out without one side winning. Her cruelty demanded such actions and would not abate until she was removed. Twist it as you want in the alt, canon is correct in him keeping with it.
How many civil wars start from a ruler having even 51% of the people saying they are doing a good job? Normally it is a majority that say they aren't that start civil wars. So your argument about not having full support holds no water.
And read even further, where it says he supported Victor. He just tried to keep out of the line of fire, as Katherine would have started destroying the Capellen March because he did not support her like she wanted. She had already been starving worlds before she started pushing Yvonne into a corner. And yet again, you can not give away a rulers right to govern if you are not the ruler. It is how civil wars start.
She sent in troops to destroy those units without even trying to get them to obey her illegal orders. As stated, she did NOT use the chain of command, but ordered them DIRECTLY to do things that were against what the military stands for. You said might doesn't make right, well this argument says you don't believe that.
The key word in your argument is assumptions. They are free to change things as they want, since you only assume what they really have going for them. The assumption before Katherine went on her tyrannical rampage seemed to support she was a better diplomat then Victor. When she started killing her own people, starting with her mother, that all changed. So that assumption was wrong. Life experiences change people as well. Sometimes it is a false statement, but enough to change how the person reacts. You say they need to keep with their characters traits, yet you don't know what they were. The assumption you do is where things are off. The writers have a better idea of their characters then you do.
Your entire argument with a lot of things here, are based in the past and said to be right in the future. Killing your own family is worse then allowing a dying child to die naturally. There was no way to stop Joshua from dying. That is fact. Ordering your own family's death is very much stoppable if the only one that gains is yourself. So genocide of your family is far worse. You continue to say that assassinating family is right as it was how those in the past gained power.
So don't even try the garbage of the past statement.
Katherine was NOT the heir to the throne. Her ascension was done illegally, as those that supported her was breaking their oaths to the heir. The only bad thing the estates can say about it is it was caught. Otherwise, had the actual intent to take over the FWL family would have been applauded.
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Requiem
06/12/20 04:07 AM
101.185.79.245
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Evidence – what evidence?
Financial and taxation documents regarding a piece of land.
A story Katherine told to Caitlin.
Any documents Ryan Steiner maintained were completely destroyed.
Everyone with any first-hand knowledge, except for Katherine herself, is dead.
Those that were captured by Victor were placed into black ops sites and were “interrogated” by professionals – one escaped (Dancing Joker) and the other was slipped poison – thus making any information they provided will be excluded due to the providence of their accuracy,
The Bloody Princess series that was used to attempt to draw Katherine out - the results of which can be considered to be subjective at best.
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Supposition does not counter the writers saying that he did have it, and was showing it to her supporters.
Subjective evidence is not definitive evidence – if he had definitive evidence then Victor would have gone to either the courts or to the people. By not doing either there is nothing definitive.
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It is his right to be in the field for as long as he wants.
If Victor was an ordinary citizen I would agree – However Victor is not an ordinary citizen he is the ruler of the Second largest empire in human history to think you could rule it from within the cockpit of a Mech is the height of hubris – as well as endangering the realm for which he was supposed to serve.
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I did not hear of anything bad happening, besides Katherine's tactics that happened when he was.
Pitiful writing is no excuse.
However if you asked …. Taking it from the 15 year truce period ….
Rebuilding Jump-ship production facilities …
Rebuilding and expanding the Military for future anti Clan Activities …
New Weapons development Infantry, Armor, Aerospace, ‘Mech, Warships etc
Increasing economic development of the Federated Suns … especially monetary and fiscal policy to ensure the proliferation of SL technology throughout the Federated Suns
Establishing joint training with all SLDF members
Revising Legal issues with regards to the SL.
Trade policy with regards to the other Great Houses to ensure future Anti-Clan development activities remains at a point that will ensure final victory over the Clans
Reducing Un-Employment figures within the FS
Establishing war strategy meetings in developing a comprehensive tactical program – this includes the mathematics of war – logistics – depletion reports etc
Establishing a spy network within the Clan OZ zone of operations to ensure optimal intelligence – enemy numbers – personnel information – logistics – timing with regards to replacement personnel that will be needed to be factored into the equation
Looking for strengths and weaknesses of the Clans
Civilian development of a total war footing program to ensure the Next war with the Clans is based upon an attrition program.
The area surrounding the Clans – all worlds will be needed to be converted into fortress world and staging facilities for the next Clan War ..
Then you will also need to review all information as to you existing “allies” within the new SL – intelligence operations – economic – technological etc etc
Most of which was completely ignored within the novels.
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It does suggest that the ruling family was not really needed, as the government works without their input.
Sorry no I do not believe this could ever be considered factual when you consider the amount of work required by a leader – please refer back to the web sites suggested on this topic.
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It is the person who steps in and says that killing people you don't like is at fault for a civil war?
It is the person who starts a civil war based upon an faulty (no) information … who should be held to account.
Victor put the war into high gear when he joined it – and he joined it because he believed Peter was murdered by Katherine – a point that was completely in error – Victor started a war based upon no information whatsoever other than his gut feeling … and for that he should be held to account.
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Her cruelty demanded such actions and would not abate until she was removed.
Again this point of view if from the Novels as being a part of Victor’s inner circle. From the point of view of an ordinary citizen this becomes a completely different point of view.
Twist it as you want Victor based his war upon a lie and he never allowed the people to know the truth – Katherine had nothing to do with the Peter’s assassination –How can you trust someone who starts a war upon inaccurate information the optics of this war then come back to petty revenge when Katherine broke the LA free of the FS?
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How many civil wars start from a ruler having even 51% of the people saying they are doing a good job?
All of them – depending on how the population splits at the start of the Civil War –
England – Cavaliers and Round Heads / America – North Vs South - how many on either side supported their side when they went to war? The majority of their side? How many did not support either side at the time of the civil war. So my argument still holds.
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He just tried to keep out of the line of fire
He?
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She sent in troops to destroy those units without even trying to get them to obey her illegal orders.
Legal orders were sent through the Chain of Command.
Rather than obey these orders they opened fire upon their replacements.
They mutinied against the chain of command.
They refused to listen – this left Katherine one choice but to use force (which is legal given she is the ruler of the realm).
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she did NOT use the chain of command, but ordered them DIRECTLY to do things that were against what the military stands for.
She is the commander in chief she does NOT have to use the chain of command if she does not want to.
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The writers have a better idea of their characters then you do.
When looking at many of the main characters within the history I would not agree with this assertion ….
Theodore Kurita and his Father Takashi Kurita – Turtle Bay – completely against the samurai character …..
Hanse Davion – not killing of the CC as well as his action during the Clan Invasion – completely against character
Victor Steiner-Davion – if he was brought up correctly the idea that he would remain with the 10th for the length of time he did is highly questionable
Katherine Steiner-Davion – the idea that she would kill her mother first is completely ludicrous – Victor has and always be the primary target.
Yvonne Steiner Davion – if she was brought up correctly she would never have been the basket case she was portrayed as
Adam Steiner and the Estates General – this is perhaps the worst of the lot – a career soldier who would accept the position of Archon when his liege lord has a son … time to get real!
Historical figures
Kerensky – as regent he is perhaps the most inept figure in history – the idea that he would just up and leave is beyond ludicrous.
Kerensky’s eldest son – it is beyond any comprehension that his “Clans” as well as his idea of creating castes could ever be considered factual –
The entire Clan Society as written is just a completely bad Joke.
The fake Thomas Marik – the idea that a person can fool so many people with whom he has had so many relationships with is incredibly difficult to believe especially when you look at micro tells many people give everyday as to their personality – hand movements , body language, facial expressions – anyone close to Thomas should pick up quickly that there is something wrong.
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Katherine was NOT the heir to the throne.
With Victor on the throne the rules of succession would say otherwise.
And her assention was done legally – the emergency power clause has been put into effect –she has been ratified by the Estates Generals – all legal!
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as those that supported her was breaking their oaths to the heir.
Then what does this say about Duke Kell and Arthur? He broke his oath to Katherine when he supported Arthur - what about everyone who supported Victor, at this point in time Victor was no longer the ruler and as such any support of him is illegal …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/12/20 11:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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The amount and type of evidence is supposition when saying it isn't enough. As the only suggested some of it, and not shown all of it, there is no way to say what is what. Victor left the murderer in charge of the FC, as he did not want to start the civil war that he was pushed into. So he was subtle about hurting the FC. It is very possible, that the evidence would have started off civil riots and such, as it shows just how much of their taxes goes to crap things.
Again. Victor knew Katherine would make a mockery of the courts, and to try the public meant giving her a platform in which to twist everything around. And as the point you shown. He did NOT have the authorization to even go there. Remember. he was a person without the power to prosecute this. So Yvonne and Arthur would have had to make this decision. OOOOPPPS?
And before you try that it was his evidence, it came from the same sources that they would and did use. MIIO and LOKI.
Actually, the game does say that strides were made to rebuild the FC. It was not the amount you wanted, and as it seems you think that waving a hand will build a shipyard in a year, that doesn't make is so. The Fireball mech is a prime example of what happens when you rush a design. Also, the shipyards restarted warship making, which doesn't just pop up when you want it to.
Everything you focused on is all military. The civilian sector benefited a lot from upgrades as well. Now let's see about funding. You want them to build more factories and such, yet have to rebuild their forces. So which is it going to be? They are down on taxes being brought in, as the clans took more then a few worlds. Then they also built up more defensive positions on worlds that were threatened but not invaded. The fact the Falcons made a mockery of that with their drive, shows the clans still had the edge, though they did invade at a bad time for the FC.
Establishing networks don't happen with a hand wave either. They would have been doing so during the war, but trying to find the people capable of doing anything would be a challenge.
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ghostrider
06/12/20 12:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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What work is required for the leader to do? Pose for pictures? Attend meetings to inform them of what is going on, only to have the people running the departments handle it? Saying they have an idea, and handing the work to do it to someone else? Seeing courtiers trying to con them into helping those asking the court for help or money? Talking to the politicians as they do the same? I can see why Victor would stay in the field. Politicians tend to be slimy con artists.
The civil war was going before Victor came in. The decision came from thinking at the time, Arthur was dead. The concept that Katherine killed him was very plausible as she killed her mother. Everyone else would be far easier to order their deaths. It was after a while they found out Arthur was still alive. But that was the last straw of a long line of issues. So what? When they found Arthur was alive, he should have said sorry and stopped his participation? Katherine had Omi killed only because it would hurt Victor. She would have liked to have used her as a means to destroy Victor otherwise.
Hurting an entire planet for the opinion of a single leader is not cruelty? Arresting those very leaders and no one ever sees them again is being nice? The people started seeing this the more it went on. This is why Victor's forces were victorious. Otherwise, they would have been wading In revolts and resistances in every turn.
Logic fail. If the leader had so many people siding with them, a civil war would not have started. So all of them starting then depending on how many supported them does not compute. The ruling leader tends to have lost so much of the populations support, that the only real threat to stop it is the military. And that didn't do much but postpone it until even more turned on that leader. So no. Having 51 percent of the people on your side does not lead to a civil war.
George Hasek. He tried to keep out of the line of fire, but supported Victor. The Capellen March would have suffered like others had, when Katherine turned her attention to them, and they had a very pissed off CC to protect against. With Katherine already making that problem worse with her meddling, they would have lost worlds if there was open fighting. The CC would have gained a lot of traction.
Reread the wiki. She did NOT follow the chain of command, and the top brass knew to follow those orders would be setting them up for prosecution of crimes. Firing on civilians is one of those orders that a unit can say they can not follow those orders. Something that seems to elude you.
And this next part really shows a lack of understanding what the chain of command is. You tell your chief of staff, which tells the top brass in the command HQ and so on down the line. Orders are written up to deal with getting the job done without going too far. Or setting up mission perameters. Otherwise, the troops may well cause more damage like looting places. Also, who is in charge of what operations comes about. The only time a direct command is given is when the leader is personally there, and even them, it goes to the top officer. It is the social generals that destroy operations when they insist the troops do what they want when they want. It is illegal in the military, but the political power causes the issues on wiether they do so or not.
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ghostrider
06/12/20 12:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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Again, the lack of understanding shows. Takashi would not have ordered is military to blindly strike out at the Jaguars, as this would be a death sentence for the DCMS. Not saying he didn't want to, but to do so, would have destroyed any chance of keeping the DC intact.
The CC in the 4th war was supposed to be about punishing it for the double operation. He was trying not to be seen as a greedy land grubbing leader, though I do agree he should have raided heavily, if not taken Capella with it's ship yards.
The case of Adam really shows a lack of understanding. The fact that the LC needed a strong military leader at the time and Peter's son was not it shows this. Also, as said about Katherine, why would Adam refuse to take that power? You suggest all wanted the first lord position, yet the first step towards that would be Archon for the LC. So where is the logic that Adam would refuse? He didn't kill anyone for the spot as well.
Again, the fact that Victor was still alive says Katherine was NOT the heir to the throne. The clause for the separation was so that before the alliance was cemented with the first born taking over, it would give the LC a safety clause incase the FS demanding a new war, or that the FS could get out if the social generals were not removed from the military. The archon-prince had the power to stop it, as they were over the archon. If not for the years of manipulation Kathrine was doing, she would have failed in the attempt.
And a person with no sympathy could very well draw a large following, as they are smart enough to know what drives people. Power and money is about alls Katherine would have to offer the General Estates to get them on her side. She did not have to care a single bit for them to do this. They could hate each other, but if they both gain from an agreement, then it will be done.
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Requiem
06/12/20 09:16 PM
101.185.79.245
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The only team looking into this was Victors’ team (or the lack of there of …) in the from agent Curaitis and Francesca – they were operating on their own and completely off book - however in this case you will need concrete proof otherwise the entire operation is for naught.
The MIIO and LOKI agents however were on the side of the Government i.e. Katherine at one point or another – as they had no knowledge whatsoever as to what Curaitis was up to.
As no definitive information was ever discovered – all Victor has is his supposition regarding a piece of land and its underlying bank accounts together with attempting to link individuals with this piece of land and this is not enough to convict anyone in a court of law – It will however produce multiple conspiracy theories as to Victors ‘true’ motives during this period of time.
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Everything you focused on is all military.
Civilian programs that must be be addressed –
Rebuilding Jump-ship production facilities … The entire realm’s economy and military capability is based upon their number of jump-ships fix this and many of the underlying problems within the realm can also be fixed at the same time.
Consider the number of Jump-ships that were prevalent during the Star League Era - The aim of every state should be to return to this level and surpass it asap.
Increasing economic development of the Federated Suns … especially monetary and fiscal policy to ensure the proliferation of SL technology throughout the Federated Suns
Reducing Un-Employment figures within the FS
As for the Clans having the edge this is a massive misnomer it is not so much about the factories themselves but what is being produced within them – where are the massive number of Omni Mechs, Vehicles, aerospace fighters and power armor? as well as a dedicated anti elemental weapon system?
With Omi tech you have battlefield flexibility as well as cost effectiveness - and yet what occurs is the complete reverse – this does not make sense from any point of view!
As for people – consider the population size of the IS or even the FC – finding capable people really should not have been that hard. The problem comes in transporting capable people from worlds of privilege to worlds that require assistance.
As for networks – these occur naturally in the pursuit of money (banks, finance and commerce) or knowledge (professional associations, commerce and universities) or through government assistance (Government Programs).
Leaders Duties …. Consider the role and powers of the UK Prime Mister (link below) when looking at each IS head of states responsibilities – Chairing the Cabinet (highest ministers in charge of individual portfolios within the government) and its most important committees / Overall control of the Civil Service as First Lord of the Treasury – including Fiscal and monetary policy on a world by world basis as well as an overarching realm basis – creating relationships between worlds within each realm (commerce, technology, defense etc.) / foreign policy and defense matters – Then the issue of establishing hidden bases for the mass manufacture of Jump-ships (for the economy and the Defense of the realm) - all of these issues would require a massive amount of time.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmpolcon/writev/842/m2.htm
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The civil war was going before Victor came in
This statement is in error – prior to Victor declaring for Civil War there was just a few units mutinying against the Chain of Command. Who were in the process of being put down.
Question what would have happened to these units if Victor had not called for War? They would have just been put down and order restored – it is with Victors interference do we have a Civil War – he and he alone is responsible for the War – and a war where he cannot prove his underlying reasons for the war, he stated it was Katherine who killed Arthur – and yet there is no body – in the absence of a body what are you supposed to think? And theis knowledge would have been known from an early stage of this so called Civil War – so why didn’t Victor review what was going on – he is completely unwilling to give up on the idea that Katherine is at fault – Blinkered Much?
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It was after a while they found out Arthur was still alive.
This was never proven – only speculation as to his ultimate fate. The only tangible information is that no body / piece of a body were ever found at the bomb site.
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Katherine had Omi killed only because it would hurt Victor.
Again this knowledge comes through the novels – it is not something that can be proven with definitive evidence within the IS – only guessing at his employer’s identity.
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Hurting an entire planet for the opinion of a single leader is not cruelty?
Then how else is a ruler supposed to keep their leaders on a short leash and do as they are told – An embargo strategy is the most pacifist way of keeping a lord in line. Yes it does hurt innocents but to cause any real damage it takes a very long time to do so – delaying transports will not cause a massive amount of problems when you compare it to other more direct options such as utilizing the military.
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Logic fail. If the leader had so many people siding with them, a civil war would not have started
Logic fail. If Victor had not declared for a Civil War, a Civil War would never have started. If Victor had asked Sandoval on Robinson for the police investigation reports and done his due diligence (as he did with his Mother’s death) and not jumped half heartedly into the frey the Civil war wound never have occurred!
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So no. Having 51 percent of the people on your side does not lead to a civil war.
And yet the entire history of Civil Wars sides with this view!
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Reread the wiki. She did NOT follow the chain of command,
Understand the Chain of Command – Katherine is at the apex of the Chain of Command – she does not have to go through the Military to issue orders!
The Internal workings of the Military are governed by Military Regulations – they have nothing whasoever to do with social generals except in regards to the rank and position they hold. Military Police are there to ensure the act in accordance with Military Regulations and the rules of war.
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Again, the lack of understanding shows. Takashi would not have ordered is military to blindly strike out at the Jaguars, as this would be a death sentence for the DCMS.
Lack of understanding / research as to Samurai culture and the concept of ‘face’ shows. To accept this without a reprisal attack would be against everything a Samurai lord stands for – there is but one way within the canon universe – Kamikaze and Nuclear Warheads – he has no choice but to strike, the dictums a samurai and a person of Japanese cultural decent lives under demands a reprisal strike and quickly!
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Again, the fact that Victor was still alive says Katherine was NOT the heir to the throne.
If not Katherine – the second eldest of Hanse and Mellissa – then who? – compare this with both House Steiner and Davion family trees (which also shows the change in succession from one leader to the next) and this statement is suddenly completely in error – both these family trees show quite clearly that Katherine is next in line and there is nothing that can change this!
As for the separation clause – show me a copy of the legal document that was signed to unify these two realms and we will then have a definitive answer – and yet TPTB decided that we were never to see this document thus the entire issue as to the emergency clause becomes an unknown once more other than the fact that at any time due to an unspecified reason the two realms can be separated back into their original realms …..
Political allies occurs due to common goal or philosophy – there is no real set reason as to why people forge them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/13/20 03:40 AM
66.74.60.165
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There were more then the two looking into this, as it was started when Victor was still the archon prince. As I believe Galen told him, that there was nothing Victor could do that the intel agencies weren't already doing. They got shut down after Katherine took over.
The lie about Omi in supposition means you did NOT read that Hohiro caught the assassin himself. That is how he met his end.
Yet again, you think waving your hands will create ship yards and jumpships by the dozens for canon. That simply means you do not understand the economics of the game, nor the amount of resources available. But then you don't have anything to compare it to, as there is no numbers you provided to even begin to deal with this. The alt is far different from canon.
The developers say what is up, and that is it.
Victor had the proof, but it was not enough to convict with Katherine manipulating every thing. This is from the source of the story line, so saying it is wrong doesn't work. The only information that is available is that which the developers says happened.
The civil war would have gone on without Victor. As stated before, he was needed to get the wide spread fights together under one direction. It would not have ended with Katherine being deposed. It would have lead to a long bloody guerilla warfare against her. And Heimdal had Morgan Kell as a major player in it, so they were being loyal to the real ruler of the FC. Not the usurper.
Get the facts right. The statement that Victor entered the war because he thought his brother was assassinated by the same person his mother was, is not the only reason he got involved, but the main one that set it in motion.
If not for stealing the jumpships like she did, the civil war would have happened when she pulled out of the FC.
Had she not done that, the civil war would not have happened.
This is the fact that is the truth. Had she not killed Mellissa, the entire civil war would not have happened. No matter how much you hate it, or want to twist it, there is not going to be a way around it.
And I do know the chain of command for the military. The leaders does not start telling the captains or lieutenents what to do. To do so destroys and hope of keeping it together, as the commanding officers don't have a clue on what is going on. Discipline goes out the window. That is why it is a chain of command, not the chaotic do as I say, and everyone gets screwed for it.
For twisting so much of the truth, the fact that the DC was based on, but not fanatically following the Bushido still has not sunk in.
You still don't understand that the loss of face for the attack can NOT be as bad as losing more things because they want off with all their forces in order to take down a ship they could not do much against. The crap of nukes is just that. Crap. By this logic, the CC would have been using them in the 4th war to prevent their destruction at the hands of the FS. And the FRR would have been using them long before that. The end of the world scenario that brings about the use of nukes is subjective. Everyone losing badly will believe that is the only choice to stay alive.
They actually explain that in one of the books. The dishonor of losing one world is nothing compared to losing the several to rage attacks.
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Requiem
06/13/20 06:57 AM
101.185.79.245
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There were more then the two looking into this ….
In the beginning Victor assigned (whilst being the Archon – Prince) had whole teams assigned (as evidenced with the capture of the Dancing Joker) …. At the end there was just one – Curaitis – as Francesca fell when the blackmail money (when the chemical that was painted on the money was exposed to oxygen) created a firestorm in the back of the vehicle she was in. Thus turning her and the “final evidence” into ash.
Still does not change the fact that there is absolutely no change in “evidence” from the beginning days when Victor decided that it was Katherine who killed his Mother (and he used this “evidence” to convince Duke Kell of her Guilt) to that of the end (within the Novel End Game).
It was Minoru Kurita (and not Hohiro) who used his katana to take the Dancing Joker’s head.
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Yet again, you think waving your hands will create ship yards and jumpships by the dozens for canon.
And yet this should have been the primary policy of every great houses’ government from when they once more understand how to become self sufficient in producing Jump-ships as it has such a massive stimulus on the economy (also understanding the multiplier effect).
In addition with more Jump-ships the security of every Great house also increases.
Given the issues of the Succession Wars when it comes to Naval yards placing them in a hidden location can only be considered to be the only real choice.
Points which seems to be lost within the IS game world.
When considering the scope of the populations on most of the worlds as well as the underlying technology that would go with these populations it is quite clear there is a massive misunderstanding as to the economics of the game as well as the resources available to every great house. (times the given IS economy by about 1,000 each and you should be starting to get somewhere near the ballpark).
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The developers say what is up, and that is it.
and when the game becomes believable ……
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Victor had the proof
He could not win in court and he could not win in the media – thus no proof whatsoever just his supposition – so saying he is completely unable to prove her guilt is completely accurate. If he was able to prove her guilt then he would have used it with all the people – as he was unable to do so … proves, that he was unable to do so Due to the quality of the information available.
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The civil war would have gone on without Victor
Every Civil War has its flag bearer for both sides – without Victor for the anti Katherine movement there is no one who can lead the movement to final victory. Without Victor the anti Katherine movement will die a very quick death, and that would include everyone who does not pay the proper respect to Katherine.
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And Heimdal had Morgan Kell as a major player in it.
The problem being that neither Kell nor Heimdall have moved outside the Arc Royal Defense Cordon since its inception thus making the assumption they would actually move against Katherine a very had concept to believe …. as Kell believes it is his duty to protect the Lyran Alliance against the Clans.
I would also like to point out that Kell has also gone to great pains to not start any conflict against Katherine – (Him and all the Dukes of the FedCom) and Katherine has reciprocated for the most part – thus neither side is fighting within the ARDC.
(Also Heimdall do not have a single leader - each cell has its own view on the universe – thus you can have cells that support Katherine and others that will fight against her).
Also Katherine is not a Usurper as she obtained both of her titles legally.
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Get the facts right. The statement that Victor entered the war because he thought his brother was assassinated by the same person his mother was, is not the only reason he got involved, but the main one that set it in motion.
Read the Novel – it was the only reason! And at no time during or at the end of the war did he provide proof as to Katherine’s perfidy.
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If not for stealing the jumpships like she did, the civil war would have happened when she pulled out of the FC.
Thus Victor ends up fighting the FWL, CC and the new LA all at the same time?
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Had she not killed Mellissa, the entire civil war would not have happened. No matter how much you hate it, or want to twist it, there is not going to be a way around it.
As stated many times …. Victor is and has always been the primary kill target.
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And I do know the chain of command for the military. The leaders does not start telling the captains or lieutenants what to do.
… and this is why she is only providing orders to regimental combat groups commanding officers thus the remainder of the argument becomes sophistry ….
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For twisting so much of the truth, the fact that the DC was based on, but not fanatically following the Bushido still has not sunk in.
And the DCMS –
For twisting so much of the truth, the fact that the DC was based on, but not fanatically following the Bushido still has not sunk in.
Paragraph “Locking Horns” – “Theodore jumped at the opportunity to push his new interpretation of bushido, which he began with the Genyosha and Ryuken.”
Bushido - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bushido
The entire Turtle Bay incident is based upon a inaccurate westernized view of Bushido – as it is based upon a very limited number of examples without completing a more comprehensive view of the subject.
Complete the further research and the point remains – Kamikaze with Nuclear ordinance – the concept of face must be adhered to. https://talkaboutjapan.com/save-face-in-japanese-culture/
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The dishonor of losing one world is nothing compared to losing the several to rage attacks.
… and the loss of face House Kurita would suffer by doing nothing would be incalculable …. Even Omika, as the Head of House Honor, would be forced to move and demand military action against the Jaguars!
There is but one path following Turtle Bay ….. Kamikaze and Thermonuclear devices in the absence of Naval assets!
If TPTB placed Bushido into the game then they should have obtained a better grasp of all of its nuances – or at the very minimum asked a think tank as to a rational decision on the question.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/13/20 01:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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The only way more jumpships increases the safety of your realm is when the other nations don't have more. And the number of defense units are necessary as well.
Now going with the history of the IS, raids were often done against enemy production facilities. Comstar was one of those that did so as well, though pirates were always to be blamed. Internal strikes happened as well, as industrial espionage happens as well.
Also, as stated with the Galax ship yard, some materials were difficult to secure, The main resource for building the jump drives was said to be hard to secure.
Now to the issue of funds. Something you ignore, yet say want to be completely realistic. Using the reference in the Cabellaros, the one building facing the military compound was supposed to be worth 36 million c-bills. Basically the cost of 3 1/2 atlases. With all the issues in each realm trying to come up with the funds to build all this stuff at once isn't going to happen. If they did have unlimited funds, like you claim, then warship production would not have stopped.
Building them means finding the people that can do the work correctly, as people that can weld in space are not a dime a dozen. Then you have to train people to use the facility, as finding unemployed people that can is highly unlikely.
The statement of the Civil war would have started, but failed to do much if Victor didn't unite them was already stated. The point is, it was going before he got involved. He did not start it. It expanded when he did.
And the point that Katherine started it when she had her mother killed seems to be missing in your storyline.
Morgan was a major player, not the person running it. And where does it say Heimdal was not active the entire time, even with Victor being archon-prince? They were always working to make sure the government didn't abuse the people. It would stand that they didn't just quit. They may well have been the main distributors of the news from other worlds, and Katherine was more then likely trying to stifle any news getting out that she was ordering the military to oppress worlds.
Victor was thinking about entering the civil war, or even starting it when Katherine took the LC. It was the assassination that made the decision for him. He knew Katherine would not stop destroying lives just to become the absolute dictator she wanted to be. It may well be the public reason he was looking for to get involved. There was one part the book where he was discussing this with a few, before he got the news of the assassination attempt.
Not sure of your sources, but Victor did show the proof of her misdeeds. Just because it wasn't the news event of the millenia like you wanted, the books says he did. The books are the ONLY source of facts in the story line. So where you are coming up with not having or showing this is all based on your view.
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ghostrider
06/13/20 01:37 PM
66.74.60.165
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Again. Your view is not supported in the canon line. Katherine did not give orders to just regimental commanders, but others in lower positions. Thus the statement of not following the chain of command. And even the regimental commanders would have needed to go thru HQ and such. Since it wasn't the statement of ignoring the chain of command is correct.
Which may well be why more units declined to obey her orders, as suggested by the statement that her orders were vague, and would have laid the blame for the bad results on the unit itself comes into play.
You aren't getting it. The DC would not exist if they were fanatical followers of bushido. ANY loss would cause them to head out in huge numbers to attack those that were successful against them. Even pirates would have had huge chunks of the defenses run off to try and take them out. The DCMS took a huge chunk of the FS in the first war. No matter what happened at Kentares, they would not have given up those worlds they had taken. Troop morale would be nothing, as bushido would mean absolute adherence to the orders from the coordinator. They would have all been killed holding position or committed suicide as the stain of losing worlds would have forced this.
This was addressed in the books when Takashi was talking to someone about face. Takashi said losing one world is nothing compared to losing several. He accepted that he would lose some honor to avoid the greater lose.
But again. Based on, and fanatical following is two different things.
What was the one condition the Japanese asked for in their otherwise unconditional surrender? That the emperor remained in power. Now with this, wouldn't their entire military have huge holes open up as the soldiers, and even the emperor bow to the demand of bushido?
This is very true when guns started showing up on the battle field. Bushido had the sword as the only weapon that was worthy of a warrior. Then it was changed to guns as it became very obvious that the sword could not beat them. So your trying to adhere to the start of it, in a time where mechs can stomp entire cities to rubble doesn't work. And with this, the DCMS tends to be very harsh on an enemy that does not even resist them. Also, many of the subordinates violate the code with their actions, yet nothing is done to stop this.
So no. They are not fanatical about following the way of the warrior. A few rare ones seem to, but for the most part, they follow what they can of it.
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Requiem
06/13/20 04:25 PM
101.185.79.245
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The only way more jumpships increases the safety of your realm is when the other nations don't have more. And the number of defense units are necessary as well.
The economics of the realm must be considered as well as the security of the realm.
With an increase in the number of Jump-ships many of the issues every realm has evaporates.
The entire premise that a massive number of shipyards and ships cannot ne manufactured within a relatively short period of time (50 years) is a hoax - compare it to the number of ships within the Star League era and the whole premise once more falls over.
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The main resource for building the jump drives was said to be hard to secure.
Difficult not impossible. When compared to the size of the universe it is just a matter of time before an adequate supply is found and mined.
Then when comparing this to the number of ships manufactured during the Star League era - the whole idea of scarce resources now becomes iffy - how do you have massive resources available for massive fleets in one era then a couple of hundred years later a massive scarecety in resources.? ..... more issues when it comes to writing .... yet again
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Building them means finding the people that can do the work correctly, as people that can weld in space are not a dime a dozen. Then you have to train people to use the facility, as finding unemployed people that can is highly unlikely.
As stated many times in the past major corporations have their own education department … example Alarion (population 3.4 Billion), thus training is a non issue …. Considering the population of even one realm or one planet ….. the level of corporations and computer programs that are currently used to find employees, and extrapolating them to the IS of the 3040’s, this is again a non issue.
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Victor did show the proof of her misdeeds.
To the entire people of the FedCom he promised to provide this info when he started the Civil War? When no info was provided at the end ..... his Civil War this purely for revenge
No, no he did not …. Not one court not even one News Organization …. He just kept all the information hidden …. And why? …. Because there was nothing there of any real significance that could ever be used against Katherine.
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There was one part the book where he was discussing this with a few, before he got the news of the assassination attempt.
In reverse …. News came first …. Then he discussed it ….Then he started the Civil War …..
[QUOTE]Your view is not supported in the canon line. Katherine did not give orders to just regimental commanders, but others in lower positions.[/QUOTE]
Supporting Evidence – Book Name and Page Number and Quote
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You aren't getting it. The DC would not exist if they were fanatical followers of bushido.
What are the tenants of Bushido for the era?
A modern version https://www.invaluable.com/blog/history-of-the-bushido-code/
Vs.
WW2 Hagakure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagakure
Takashi, the Generals of the Chief of Staff as well as House Honor (Omika) are bracketed by the concept of Face as well as that of Hagakure and other Tenants of Bushido – Theodore despite his attempts at reform will also be required to act. In the absence of acting House Kurita will suffer a massive loss of Face!
Given the slap across the face the Jaguars have committed there is but one response – Kamikaze and Thermonuclear devices – consult WW2 history at the very minimum.
Turtle Bay has nothing to do with a loss of a single world or for that matter multiple worlds it has to do with the loss of Face when a Jaguar ship can act with impunity in destroying a DC City who had just liberated Takashi’s Grandson (and future Coordinator of the DC) from the Jaguars.
The DCMS you are referring to are appearing to be following the Hagakure during this era – it is not a definitive expression of “samurai philosophy”.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/13/20 09:38 PM)
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ghostrider
06/13/20 11:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Compare the SL which was formed from the Terran Hegemony, which was around for a longer time then the other IS houses, and then ask, how many of those shipyards were built over a hundred to a thousand years? Now ask why the SL was pushing to get new sources of resources as they basically mined out all the materials in the Terran Hegemony. That how many of the mines they were using in the other houses were destroyed in the succession wars. Wait. You mean that the numbers the SL had was from more then a dozen years of work, as well as having skilled people to build the items, and make the ships? What a concept.
The issue is assuming you covered everything, but in reality, it is obvious, you haven't.
A non issue that those that do know how to work in space with welders and such would be with every company and be available to teach others, while trying to continue their jobs sounds like reality to me. I mean there is only so many resources the companies have, so let's remove those doing the jobs to train those that only a rare few could even attempt to do. But you have thought of everything, and this is the only viable solution to this issue. I mean what could an entire section of a jumpship that isn't welded right do? Fall off in the middle of a jump? Not a problem it would seem.
This does not even cover finding people even willing to try it. Check out the stats for underwater workers that deal with dam repairs on the water filled side.
When did Victor say he would show proof of his sister's deeds? He said she killed Arthur as the main reason he got involved, but reading the books, and not adding in bs wording that isn't there, he was trying to avoid it, and only when it became evident that she was not going to stop, did he finally step in to unite the loyalist to remove the usurper. The excuse was Arthur's assassination. It was NOT the only reason.
Do you understand how logic works? If the warriors were so upset with losing a single world, the DC would not have survived the first war, or even becoming the DC. They lost more then a few battles in the fight to even make the DC, then fighting the FS and LC as well as the SL. Pirates would not be operating close to Terra without houses being responsible for most of it. With coordinators being assassinated, those same warriors would not just stop at taking a few worlds. They would be like the ronin. They would go after the person that ordered such a mission as well as anyone else involved. So saying they would have to use nukes to attack the Jaguar ignores the entire history of the IS, and succession wars. The DC would have already been caught in a rage from just losing worlds to begin with.
What you describe would mean abandoning all the worlds they are charged with defending to strike back at the Jaguars. And this is BEFORE the bombardment. Hell, the first war would have had them do so. The FS figured out this issue and used it against the DC. Galtor would be a very good example. The DC lost the world to the FS. This would mean they would use nukes to take the world back? To use any unit in range to attack?
The FS would have owned the DC by the time the 3rd war started, much less them existing during and after the clans.
And where is the honor in framing someone else for assassinating a superior? Promotion by assassination did happen in the old culture. It was one of the worse, but not the only dishonorable thing some did.
A few followed it religiously, while most followed it, but not as fanatical.
China still existing is a very good example of this concept not working the way you want it to.
There was no honor is not passing on the information that House Davion was in line to inherit the first lord title. Greed of power seemed to counter it.
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Requiem
06/14/20 01:59 AM
101.185.79.245
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how many of those shipyards were built over a hundred to a thousand years? Now ask why the SL was pushing to get new sources of resources as they basically mined out all the materials in the Terran Hegemony.
Terran Alliance from 2086 to 2316 – Controlled Systems 600+ - then consider how small the population / resources that are available during this period to that of 700 years in the future
Terran Hegemony 2315 to 2767 - Controlled Systems 95+
Star League 2570 to 2780 – Controlled Systems 2000+
The majority of Naval Yards would have been created in the initial 200 years (2100 to 2300) when considering the number of controlled systems (600). Over a period 20 – 30 years (3040 to 3070) when factoring in the change in resources / technology available to that of 700 years prior there is a massive gap between what was produced and what should be able to be produced. What is the change in technological development between these two eras? 10X, 20X, 50X or in the 100’s when factoring in the change in populations and corporations and worlds? There is however a magnitude of difference between these two periods of time that must be taken into consideration …. And yet when reading the canon has not ….
The only way that the above statement holds true is if the economy of the Terran Alliance is greater than the era of the various Houses circa 3040 onwards …. Because the level of technology of the Houses in 3040 is equivalent to that of the Star League era, 250 years later than that of the Alliance era ….
It is obvious that there is a disconnect ….
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so let's remove those doing the jobs to train those that only a rare few could even attempt to do
This statement indicates a lack of knowledge as to how large corporations maintain education departments – may I suggest research is undertaken as to how this operates. Usually rather than retiring individuals are transferred to a massive training and development department to ensure the numbers of people required to expand the business are maintained as the business grows.
At the same time the military could use these facilities to train their own people – and they then train more people – exponential growth …
Over a short period of time the number of workers required can be at a very high number …. It is the same as going through boot camp then into specialist training …. Have a look at underwater welders …
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When did Victor say he would show proof of his sister's deeds?
Partiots and Tyrants – Page 148 -149
Deschuttes Mogyorod, Melissia Theater, Lyran Alliance 8 December 3062
“Good citizens of the Federated Commonwealth, I wish many things for us. That the great union of two nations which my parents forged would not have founded ……. There is Blood on Katherine’s hands …..In the end, I know we shall be victorious, re-establishing a trustworthy and accountable government among our people, worlds, and nations.”
… re-establishing a trustworthy and accountable government – and this can only be achieved with total disclosure!
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Do you understand how logic works?
Do you understand the concept of Face? Dow you understand the concepts contained within the Hagakure as it applies to WW2 Japan and how it should also apply to DC DCMS?
The fact stands – in a society similar to that of Japan WW2 post Turtle Bay the only response is that of Kamikaze and a Thermonuclear Device against the Jade Falcon Warship that was used for an orbital bombardment!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/14/20 04:26 AM
66.74.60.165
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The number of ship yards may well have been few compared to how large some of them were. The stupid thing abou the canon game is the fact that all these hidden or forgotten sites lay around the entire area known to man.
Corporate education for something like building ship yards has a huge effect of people not wanting to do so, as it means sitting out in space for long shifts, with little to no immediate help. Zero-G has an effect on people, physically and emotionally, which causes some of those that would even like to try, to fail out. Then there are some that have no talent and can not develop what is needed to do the job. Amenities are scarce, as well as just something other then basic items, and even then, basic items isn't what people want to deal with. Paste and such would probably be on the menu all the time, as companies will cheap out on supplies.
Now pulling people off of a job to train people in a class room when they are needed to do the job in space is not something the company will be happy to even think of. On the job training in this sort of environment is expensive and very dangerous. Some training will be required before they ever step into a space suit to be trained properly. Even with the billions of people in the universe, there is not that many that can, as well as want, to do that sort of job.
Why do you think he stepped away from ruling? And the public did start seeing some of the evidence he had. Most of it was shown to her greatest supporters, such as the Brewer family running Defiance. There is no saying he would show the evidence to the masses, as the government can be redone to those standards without people knowing the full details. There is no government known to mankind that has ever not lied about things. Funny that you believe total disclosure is the only way to bring that about.
Now there is the issue with your DC problem Should also apply. This is your view of it, not the view of most others including the developers. So this is why part of the story doesn't make sense. Based on is the key world. Not completely followed. And again, the only viable way of dealing with the warship, which was from the Smoke Jaguars, not Jade Falcon, is to use nukes, does not work. As stated, nukes do not carry that much power in the game. Non nuclear missiles do more damage. The alt can have a nuclear rainstorm on the warships, canon does not follow that vision.
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Requiem
06/14/20 06:37 AM
101.185.79.245
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Shipyards have to hidden lest every great house will end up with the same issue as the succession wars.
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Corporate education for something like building ship yards
Remuneration – Deep see welder $300,000 p.a. – if individuals were offered a similar amount within 5 years of working experience the issues of working in a zero G environment suddenly disappear.
Second if working in zero G was such an issue why do families live and work on their family owned Jump-ship generation in generation out …..
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Now pulling people off of a job to train people in a class room when they are needed to do the job in space is not something the company will be happy to even think of.
Nearing retirement they are transferred off thus the effect to production is negligible.
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On the job training in this sort of environment is expensive and very dangerous.
No …. This usually occurs when you have gone through massive in classroom training as well as basic training in space – you are then assigned a mentor to watch what you are doing and make sure you are working to your KPI …. Only after you have proven you can work according to the regulations will they remove the mentor.
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Even with the billions of people in the universe, there is not that many that can, as well as want, to do that sort of job.
How many will change their minds when they learn about the amount of money they can earn?
Have a look of working at a distant mine as an example of the amount of money offered …..
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There is no saying he would show the evidence to the masses
Say goodbye to re-establishing a trustworthy and accountable government …. And with it a free journalists and freedom of speech soon thereafter …. Has a Government ever disposed a ruler via military force and not told the people why?
Victor stated his aims and his promise of establishing a trustworthy and accountable government, he must be held accountable to this promise.
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As stated, nukes do not carry that much power in the game.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:_SLDF_Naval_Doctrine
Section 1.3 Nuke Proofing SLDF Style ….” The second is essentially a short ranged fighter weapon. It turns every fighter into a potential ship killer. “
The SLDF says otherwise …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/14/20 12:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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How many people are still needed for undersea welding? They are having issues filling those jobs. As said, those working in the water on dams are still in demand.
Well besides the owners working at their own company, some have been in space enough to get a feel for things. Passing down such a job is much like generations on farms, or selling auto parts.
When a person is close to retirement, you think they are not contributing to their jobs? A lot of those retiring have the experience to do the job better then those that are even 3 years into it. And they actually do it.
On the job training means actually having the teacher and student(s) working on the actual product. This isn't like teaching someone to farm on a nice world. This is having a space suited team out in space, working with equipment that isn't that common, using oxygen and other resources to be there. Any screw up is yet another expense added to this. Simple things like being off an inch or two can have dramatic effects. Some don't do anything when wrong.
So how do you re-establish a government that the ruler was a completely mad tyrant? And it isn't like rulers don't do or order questionable things. Again, you are not seeing it thru the eyes of most people. They may not like it, but they would have liked the fact it was tried. The average LC citizen would see it as a bloodless means to removing the FWL from hitting their nation.
And how many huge protests are done when a ruler from another realm's children are killed in a raid or war? Thomas had a right to be upset, but for the common person, this is not the end all that you are trying to make it out to be.
Have you forgotten the essays on the sight are opinions? In the rule books, the thing that says how much damage things do, it has other missiles doing more damage. Even canons, lasers and such do as much or more. Granted, nukes are not as realistic as they should be, but by changing this, you do the same thing as the other writers. You ignore the 'facts' of the game. This changes it from canon to a point of view. Which is part of why some of the writers seem to not know much of the game system. This leads to the holes in the story.
Right now, jump cores in the game are pure fantasy. But what if they decided to put in a star gate? Or warp drives? The super jump drive was bs. I believe they should have extended the range by now, but the WOB crap was thrown in there to made WOB a larger threat. It was still major crap. Same with the SDS system. Without it, WOB would have been stomped that much quicker with less damage to all.
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Requiem
06/14/20 04:50 PM
101.185.79.245
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Semantics regarding employment – Large remunerations will have an effect on placement numbers.
Semantics IS economic and technological development has expanded exponentially to such a point that the number of Jump-ship production facilities should have increased – cases in point, the number of BattleMech production facilities increases since 3040 onwards. Second, warship production.
Government and Corporation development of commercial Jump-ships should have increased.
Semantics – mentor education programs will not work in space – so far training and development have been produced for every environment including space. To believe that in 1000 years of space travel and production educational programs do not work seems to be extremely far-fetched. Computers in class rooms was until recently unheard of – who is to say that in 1000 years they do not have school camps to lunar environments whist working on the school Drop-ship as it proceeds to and from the lunar camp site isn’t a normal event.
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So how do you re-establish a government that the ruler was a completely mad tyrant?
Perestroika and glasnost – Russia for one.
There have been many instances where, over time, governments have moved forward.
To believe that everyone within the IS sees Katherine as the ultimate evil ruler is beyond the pale – TPTB really dropped the ball on this one. Most of the best rulers in history have always been similar to her and her governments practices.
There is no proof of her guilt whatsoever – otherwise Victor and his two siblings would have proclaimed her guilt to the heavens in order to legitimize their actions and their rule over their respective realms. By not doing so many will see their rule as illegitimate.
Joshua’s death and replacement by Victor requires context to understand – consider the Lindbergh Kidnapping then times that rage and grief by a higher magnitude …. people become attached to their royalty and for one to be so ill treated is what must be considered as to the outpouring of grief in such a situation.
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Have you forgotten the ….
Considering the thermal output of a thermonuclear detonation is greater than that of the sun ….. just because TPTB have created a reduced version does not make it correct – physics does not change to do so on such a level you might as well give up on the game’s reality entirely. From now on all my Mechs can fly – as they have an anti gravity engine and an anti gravity shield making most of the current weapon systems obsolete ….. (Satire)
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This leads to the holes in the story.
How difficult is it to research such topics? And thereby incorporate such information into the game? TPTB put them in the game – they destroyed how many worlds and the people there on and they are worried about the ‘facts’ of the game? Once in the game they are in …..
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Without it, WOB would have been stomped that much quicker with less damage to all.
They were provided with how many hidden worlds with massive populations of how many people they were provided with how many new mech designs as well as cyborg technology to produce the next quantum leap in warrior development (whereas the clans were allowed just gene modifications) Might as well have given them legions of troops as they did with the Clans and really suspend the belief factor than gone down the track with WMDs but then when considering many of the stories belief and accuracy have never been part of the games strong points?
Might as well give up on logic, reality and understanding physics and just go for broke and turn the game into the most unreal it can be ….
Make more sense than some of the issues included into the game so far…..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/14/20 04:51 PM)
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ghostrider
06/14/20 10:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with people in space is why there aren't that many aerofighter pilots, and even getting a skilled dropship crew is hard to do.
Increasing the pay is not going to magically bring in applicants that can do the job and not go nuts. The weight that a single tear in your suit will probably kill you weighs heavy on peoples minds. And that isn't saying anything about company reputations. They are large corporations after all. Most try to save money on things so the executive board can make lots of money. The combination of talent to do the job, and the ability to do it in zero-g is what prevents a lot of people from being able to do it. Then comes things like making sure the person isn't an agent for a rival company or a spy that is sent in to sabotage the product. And last but not least, more then a few quit because their boss doesn't know what the hell is really going on, or even qualified to be in charge. Corporations just love to have their family in charge of important positions.
Again. What is the source of proof behind the statement that Victor had no evidence? Everything official says he did. Only you say he didn't. So where is this printed?
And the suggestion that the masses in the FWL were sympathetic to Thomas losing a child was not there. More then a few wanted the Marik line gone. Hell, even some of the Mariks wanted the rest gone. Isis would probably have loved the idea Joshua was gone as it means she is the only legal heir to the throne. Of course lip service would be required. In some cases, it would increase the rage against the Mariks as more then a few lost their children to the Mariks incompetence and games. On and off the battle field.
On the Lyran side, how many would have been absolutely infuriated that Katherine just handed over the worlds to the FWL, and CC? Some spent billions trying to establish their companies in that area, only to lose them to someone that has no knowledge of war?
And you should read up on the Chaos March. The houses DID try to reinforce their rule, only to be chewed up by others. The entire march was a meat grinder. Even comprehensive reading says that, but to help, it is printed.
Arguing canon is wrong, as they were using their own guidelines is where the issue is. I have not seen anything saying the Kyber crystals being destroyed when the first one was made, much less where the ones for the second and planet killer came from. A laser will not explode a planet on contact.
Now. Keeping in their own rules, they are accurate to say that the nukes do not do more damage then others. Now you need to go and change the rule basis before you can rewrite anything, as everything based on something outside of the rule base is a complete logic failure.
Where you even on line in the early 80's? You know when the internet was nothing near as it is today? 1200 baud modems were considered fast. The screens you see booting up in some movies and shows that you can read faster then the information was coming thru was real. So without having all the information at the click of a button on a mouse, the way to do any research was to go to a library and such. As the game developed in later days, they got more technical, but again. The game was a board game. The fluff they put into it was not the selling point. It still isn't.
So the take away to this is, you don't have to play it if you don't agree with it. The presentation done here is not showing an alternative to canon, but a means to rip on it. Not a single number was shown to even suggest the developers own numbers are wrong.
Hidden worlds with massive populations? Is this really possible? Hidden worlds stay hidden only when there isn't a constant flow of ships going in and out of them. To my knowledge, jumpships aim towards their destination in order to jump. That may be in error, so this might be off a little. But having a ship constantly pointing in a direction that there is NOTHING would tip someone off. 30 light years isn't that long to see any worlds that could be jumped to.
Also, having that many people would mean sooner or later, someone would get word out, even if it is just to tell their family, they are still alive and kicking. Part of why installations that are secret are military run. A few science stations are, but those tend to lose their secret position due to some stupid mistake.
The fact WOB had production facilities isn't in question. How many actual warriors they could have is. They controlled Terra, which had quite a few before comstar lost it. Then their base in the FWL had some built. The issue of why they needed the WMDs is a real lack of numbers to hit all the worlds at a close time, as well as not wanting to waste them on battles that were easier to just nuke. The whole Turtle Bay incident repeated. They feared they would lose, so resorted to nukes.
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Requiem
06/15/20 01:44 AM
101.185.79.245
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The issue with people in space is why there aren't that many aerofighter pilots, and even getting a skilled dropship crew is hard to do.
Misnomer belief built upon TPTB premise that BattleMechs are the king of the Battlefield. In reality the I.S. is a space faring society – as such being in space is an absolute necessity – thus a major proportion of the society should work within space ….
Thus for a universe science fiction setting based in space shows there is something severely wrong with the writing …
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Increasing the pay is not going to magically bring in applicants that can do the job and not go nuts.
Societal values that relate to corporations would say otherwise …
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What is the source of proof behind the statement that Victor had no evidence?
1. Regarding the land sale – only circumstantial evidence was ever found;
2. Ryans’ private information – destroyed;
3. Sven Newmark’s information destroyed;
4. All individuals with any knowledge are dead – or taken to a black site and subsequently died;
5. Victor is incapable of bringing Katherine before a court of law or provide evidence in the media;
6. Novels – if taken from the point of view of an ordinary citizen on the street they have no knowledge as to Katherine’s guilt – they only know that Victor has accused her of being behind both deaths – however he has never supplied any evidence.
QED – no evidence
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Everything official says he did.
Now that I have answered please reciprocate – What source of information is there behind the statement that ‘Everything official says he did’ – what evidence does Victor have? Book – Page Number ….
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And the suggestion that the masses in the FWL were sympathetic to Thomas losing a child was not there.
Prove it! Book and Page number
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On the Lyran side, how many would have been absolutely infuriated that Katherine just handed over the worlds to the FWL, and CC?
Except that canon blames Victor not Katherine for this fiasco - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chaos_March
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The entire march was a meat grinder. Even comprehensive reading says that …
“ The constantly shifting web of alliances, as well as the rapid rise and fall of planetary-level governments led observers to dub this area of instability the Chaos March …. Over time, both the Capellan Confederation and the Federated Commonwealth were able to exert more influence and military pressure on the worlds of the Chaos March, leading to its shrinkage. Though both would become distracted (the Capellans by the war with the St. Ives Compact and the Commonwealth by the Clans), many worlds of the Chaos March had been reclaimed by one of the Great Houses. When the FedCom Civil War broke out in 3062, some Chaos March worlds were caught in the middle …. The face of the Chaos March changed forever when the owners of Terra, the Word of Blake announced the formation of the Word of Blake Protectorate in 3066.”
In reality if the 20 year update, that included the true level of FedCom forces were still in effect,t neither the CC nor the FWL would have had enough forces to invade – if they did Victor and the FS would have squashed both these two realms with just the FS forces alone! (ie the TPTB cheated once again when they refused to carry over the true forces of the FedCom from the 20 year update)
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Arguing canon is wrong, as they were using their own guidelines is where the issue is.
Arguing with logic and rational functions is the correct problem ….
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I have not seen anything saying the Kyber crystals being destroyed when the first one was made, much less where the ones for the second and planet killer came from.
Then you should have watched the complete Star Wars: Rebels series.
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Now you need to go and change the rule basis before you can rewrite anything, as everything based on something outside of the rule base is a complete logic failure.
Please explain which rules of physics apply and which do not - can I manipulate gravity, Newton’s laws – or is it just those that relate to nuclear physics.
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Where you even on line in the early 80's? You know when the internet was nothing near as it is today?
This is still not an excuse …. Writing a good story is about research to ensure all the small facts are accurate …. Not making them up as you go along just because …
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Hidden worlds with massive populations? Is this really possible?
Very easy … I could put an empire of worlds above / below the Canon worlds and they would not even know of their existence until it was too late – the entire IS transport system is about adhering to existing routes – other than Thomas Kurita in the canon 3039 war how many forces were going “off track” within the IS to get from one world to the next?
Problem is you just need one secret spot to jump from and you can remain hidden for the remainder of the journey – how easy if this was Terra given ComStar’s ability to hide their explore Corps for how many centuries? – so it is quite easy to hide whole planets at the same time!
Then there is the real Thomas Marik’s hospitalization after he was blown to bits – this occurred on one of these hidden worlds! Secret Maintained!
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How many actual warriors they could have is.
How many centuries were these world kept hidden from when the Exodus occurred – or were they just lost worlds during the Amaris War?
Then there is the issue that WMDs were made and stored on these worlds as the final step in making the Universe one big Blakean Theocracy – as per their original plan.
Then there is the issue of the number of worlds that were just killed off to make a point eg. Alarion – then there is the issue of how many were used in battles – retaking Terra for example … there must have been a massive stockpile somewhere …. Also it was not about the issue they feared they would loose. It was about eliminating any concentration of forces – similar to Castro and the Cuban Missile Crisis – Long Range ones were not yet operational however the short range ‘frogs’ were operational – any landing by US forces on the beaches of Cuba were to be met with a short range nuclear strike.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/15/20 02:18 AM
66.74.60.165
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I have yet to see anywhere that the houses have more pilots then craft. Every novel out there seems to suggest that getting good crew is difficult. So if TPTB say it is in the canonverse, then that is the way it is.
You are basing your information saying that money will bring out hordes of people to apply for a job is possible, but finding the amount you need isn't going to happen. Most that apply will be eliminated almost immediately as they can't do the job, or can't handle being in space. Numbers is not going to do more then waste more money finding the 1 or 2 per billion. Then finding if the people will relocate. Companies are notorious for not wanting to pay employees to move. And then turning screws once the employee is trapped where they are at. The work ethic of someone that is basically being held against their will, drops dramatically. You will find some, but it won't be enough to open up even 20 yards. I doubt more then 3 if that.
No copies being made for anything sounds like bs. The fact that Victor never took her to court because of a lack of proof it supposition, as the only source of this information says he had the proof. So the argument is saying your view is correct, as the writers said it was released, but didn't cover the storyline from there. Just like they don't cover every little thing that happens in the galaxy. You comprehensive reading skills pick up conspiracies that don't exist, but yet can't figure out not everything they say happens is printed in full detail the moment it happens.
You left out a few parts that do say the entire area was a meat grinder. I understand that because it shuts down the complaint. It seems to happen more and more.
And you still think that every single unit in the listing in the books is available to be sent into a location the moment something happens. In the alt were everything happens magically, like forces on one side of the FS, can just pick up and move across to attack something, leaving their worlds they were protecting free for attacks is what you want. In a logical thought process, this can not be done as you wished it could. Canon has a lack of ships. And even then, you can not just pull forces off where ever to move to a world 5 or more jumps away on a moments notice. How many worlds need forces protecting them? ALL of them. And when you say 3 RCTs isn't enough to garrison a capital world, then this number drops even more.
Saying the people that made the rules are wrong for keeping their storyline with some resemblance to following those rules is wrong, but yet arguing that your vision is the only one that is correct doesn't make it so. If they say their game can have a pin shot out from a sowing machine, can penetrate the armor of a warship without issue, then that is so. The bs I argue about is when the pin can't penetrate a simple shirt. Things like there not being any examples of SL weapons in the IS before the helm core is bs. The fact that the SL mechs are all configured to the 3025 era models, when they had so much advanced tech is bs. I understand that they did not even have much of a clue on if the game would even get to actually bringing to life the SL, besides legend when it first came out, but when they did, NOTHING had the advanced tech in it. It is when they contradict their own rules is where the problems lay.
And now you might just understand that physics are not constant with the game rules. The idea of a PPC throwing out charged particles, akin to lighting, would not be attracted to the closest grounded source along the line of fire, or even close. A ship that can travel 30 light years thru some type of teleportation. A message can be sent like that and make a sustained contact that is almost instantaneous. The fact that the same weapons on a mech can fire much further in space then on a world with the same accuracy is yet another. And simple materials used for construction can not be fitted on something that is a little more rugged and stationary, then it does on a large multi jointed moving monster.
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ghostrider
06/15/20 02:36 AM
66.74.60.165
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Yet some how, you are putting up things that don't make sense, and you have tried to research things. Suggesting nukes are the only thing to counter warships, then suggest they should not be in the game doesn't make sense, other then you don't want the FS/FC to be hurt. That is poor writing in your own words. If A equals B, and B equals C, then A must equal C. That is logic. Your view is doing the same as the developers. A equals what I want, and B equals what I want, but C doesn't work as I don't want it.
Have you read Sci Fi books? You know, the ones that don't have a true basis in the laws of physics. Hyperspace jumps being a main one. Transmission portals that hurl a person across a galaxy on a moment notice without killing the person by having some of them at one point, and the other at the other point. Or how a ship handles the same in space as it does in the atmosphere. Gundam wing is very famous for bs like this. It is entertaining, but not something you can compare to logical writing.
Again, you show you have not read the history of the IS. More then a few raids and full scale attacks were made by going thru uninhabited worlds. Deep raids are very notorious for doing so. Trying to flee an enemy tends to use those same systems. Normal traffic keeps to normal routes as the commercial transports can not afford to lose a single jumpship. Though some still use uninhabited systems. One of the old battles around Defiance had the raid from the FWL do so, before Thomas was even born. Davion did the same thing with some of the invasion force in the 4th war. Surprise attacks on worlds more then one jump in requires jumps into systems not watched. Pirate points can only do so much, but when a ship goes from one system and then disappears without showing up at another watched world, it is either a misjump, or going 'dark'. And the hidden worlds were BS as Comstar would have had started them before WOB took over. You can only keep them hidden so long. The larger the operation, the less likely it will remain hidden.
Funny how you said the Cuba missile crisis would use short range nukes to defend against an invasion, but yet you said that the CC would never have used them to thwart the FS in the 4th war. This example destroys the argument with the 4th war. Nice to see the contradiction from your own words to counter your statements.
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Requiem
06/15/20 04:35 AM
101.185.79.245
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Every novel out there seems to suggest that getting good crew is difficult.
And yet in the absence of a definitive quote from a book the point is does not hold.
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but finding the amount you need isn't going to happen. Most that apply will be eliminated almost immediately as they can't do the job…
Personal opinion …. I could just take the opposite opinion ad infinitum …..
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….as the writers said it was released,
Then after reading all the novels what is this so called evidence the writers say is there when all the evidence they wrote into the story no longer exits and Katherine is the only person left standing?
You can’t write a story and say everything has been destroyed only to change the premise on the last line unless you have a time machine or your character is within a dream sequence ……
I have provided my side with all the canon facts written into the narrative …. Where within the narrative is it written that Victor found the smoking gun on Katherine?
Until I have been provided with Book – Page Number and quote as to the existence of definitive evidence held by Victor – Katherine is innocent!
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You left out a few parts that do say the entire area was a meat grinder. I understand that because it shuts down the complaint. It seems to happen more and more.
Canon Fact …….
20 Year Update –
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments (not including the 4 I removed due to the impossibility of their existence)
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Thus the CC + FWL = 96 Regiments (including the 4 I believe should not exist)
Even if FS retained only half the units that is still 134 Regiments
Then when you compare the number of units the FS could move during the 4th SW there would be more than enough to obliterate the CC as well as damage the majority of the FWL units used in the war and still have enough left over to keep the DC in check. As there is no definitive numbers as to the number of Jump-ships Katherine was able to keep from Victor the point becomes debatable once more.
At the very least the CC would no longer exist! (yet again)
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you can not just pull forces off where ever to move to a world 5 or more jumps away on a moments notice.
Ready Reaction Forces – Yes you can send them …. And yes they can go straight into the fight …..
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Suggesting nukes are the only thing to counter warships, then suggest they should not be in the game doesn't make sense,
Attempting to make a statement where none exists?
1. In the absence on Warships – only Kamikaze and Thermonuclear devices will get the job done – as they are the only weapon systems available to the DCMS at that time frame that can take on a warship;
2. In an IS universe with Warships – Naval Battle – remove nukes from the game;
Choose your story narrative?
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the ones that don't have a true basis in the laws of physics. Hyperspace jumps being a main one.
Google Wormholes – tunnels in curved space-time, connecting two distant places, through which travel is possible ….
Even in the Gundam universe the laws of physics still stand – Still have yet to answer the question if nuclear physics no longer exists within the Battletech universe what other physics principles have been removed/ modified? ….. as we need to know this for our ‘logical writings’
The issue being nuclear reactors - if nuclear weapons are now the power of firecrackers how do they destroy planets in other writings with just dropping half a dozen onto a world and what about nuclear reactors how big do they have to be now to produce the same amount of energy as well a nuclear medicine any change there in the dosage – also when people die of exposure to nuclear radiation (Grey Death CO) – how does all this change if the laws of physics have been changed for nuclear weapons?
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More then a few raids and full scale attacks were made by going thru uninhabited worlds. Deep raids are very notorious for doing so.
Then why were they never used in the 4th SW as well as during the Clan Invasion? Also why would Hanse Davion have been so surprised during the war of 3039 if they were used so regularly?
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You can only keep them hidden so long.
ComStar’s Explorer Corp – you cannot have it both ways, either both should have been found out or both remain a secret – please choose.
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Funny how you said the Cuba missile crisis would use short range nukes to defend against an invasion, but yet you said that the CC would never have used them to thwart the FS in the 4th war.
Apple meet orange – orange meet apple – up until that state only one WMD strike had been used during the 4th SW and that was chemical. At that stage the writers had no rules for the use of Nuclear weapons in the game. So unless you want to add some house rules the for your own home game it was quite impossible.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/15/20 12:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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As with everything else printed, if they had said they had the bomb plans and full details signed by Katherine, you would still say that doesn't prove she did it. A full holotape of her saying she did it wouldn't be enough. Then things like it doesn't make sense and such. So just like your complaint on why you can't come up with numbers on what Defiance alone has, the writers did not put up every last bit of information. Their numbers don't fit your visions numbers, yet you don't have any. Get the point now?
Canon fact. You can not say that you have left out units and still say it is canon fact. Also, out of all those units, how many can really be moved within a day? A week? You still don't understand that the interstellar battles is a guessing game on when and where the next set of attacks will be. Also, the 20 year update was showing units that were around at the time of the update. How many were destroyed or formed after the update was done? And back to needing to guard a lot of things, yet not having the troops to do so. Something that still seems to allude you. This isn't something that a single week can have the troops moved, in the numbers needed, in order to stop an invasion. By the time you get there, they have destroyed and looted everything worth of value. And then you can't understand why they can't rebuild.
Yeah. There is no sense in saying you have to use nukes, which doesn't work well in the game, against warships if you don't have any warships, then suggest that others would not have used, or will use them when they feel there is no other alternative. The full logic failure here is sad really. And now. It does NOT remove nukes from the game.
A small ship, the gundam, carries more firepower and armor then the largest of battleships follows physics? No wonder understanding the BattleTech game is so difficult.
Yeah wormholes. Unstable, and no way to really use them. You don't set an destination as they go where they want. And until someone does go thru one and comes back, it is all just the best educated guess. But then years ago, nothing could travel faster then light, so it is possible worm holes do distort the fabric of reality. But this does not explain jumpships. But this is a Sci Fi game and they needed FTL drives in order to be a galactic sized game.
The radiation fall out is even more widespread then the actual blasts. But the developers had to nerf their damage, as it makes the idea of having large armored ships woefully stupid. Spend a year and a half building some billions c-bill ship, only to be destroyed by one shot. Then again, keeping it at full power, destroys any chance of making the game work. A single Davy Crockett can wipe out a battlefield of units. No mech could withstand that power. So that means a single raiding ship can destroy the enemies units on the enemies world and you don't have to deal with it. Yeah. Fun game. Man would never have been able to spread out, as someone with a supply of nukes would have extorted the galaxy with them.
The raid on Kathil and the one to get the TSM used some. And if I know right, the raid that killed the LC generals used this same method. The attack on the Direwolf had the force use uninhabited systems to try and get away from the Wolf Clan. It was an accident that they ran into the warship. The Silver Eagle had jumped into an uninhabited system too, if I remember right. So your comprehensive reading isn't working right. Maybe try reading the actual words next time.
The explorer corps unique ships were retconned into the game. This is why they were not seen before hand. Now if you need something more in game, the fact they can use pirate points in uninhabited systems to move thru is a good concept. Uninhabited, normally has nothing in system watching for things, as reporting them is impossible. No HPG. Comstar would have a very good star chart for things like this, so they could move around. This is one of those things that I do say is bs. They have a fleet of them, yet weren't seen or reported. So the poor retcon is why they weren't 'seen' before.
Apples and oranges? So the CC would not see the 4th war invasion as a desperate action time, as they were about to be destroyed, so would not use nukes to save themselves, but the real world had Cuba about to do just that. And then the clan invasion requires nukes to fight warships. And you don't see the flaw in this? It isn't comprehensive reading, it is not reading anything, but putting in a fantasy concepts in the books. Either that, or the logic failure going on is much worse then it looks.
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Requiem
06/15/20 05:25 PM
101.185.79.245
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As with everything else printed, if they had said they had the bomb plans and full details signed by Katherine, you would still say that doesn't prove she did it. A full holotape of her saying she did it wouldn't be enough.
I asked a simple question “Where within the narrative is it written that Victor found the smoking gun on Katherine?”
The answer:- “the writers did not put up every last bit of information. Their numbers don't fit your visions numbers, yet you don't have any. Get the point now?”
Yes I do – an unsustainable writing perspective.
Please explain how, as a reader, if you cannot find any evidence, the absence of evidence proves the guilt of a character within the story? This is a complete disconnect as to how to understand and critique a story. As an author has a certain responsibility to their readers to lead them to a definitive conclusion - Mystery Authors such as Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes – Agatha Christie’s Poirot – what would happen to these novels if they never provided a definitive conclusion?
This is the problem here – there is no definitive conclusion written into the story as to Katherine’s true guilt – and as to Katherine’s fate I give this story an “F”. Writing out of the story a good Villainess indicates there are underlying issues with the narrative.
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You can not say that you have left out units and still say it is canon fact.
Consider the positioning of the Chaos March – consider the level of trade through this area – Consider the Importance of the Terran corridor and how wide it is.
Then understand timing works both ways for that of the attacker and the defender when attempting to move their forces – then understand that this method of fighting has been the norm since the time of Kerensky’s Exodus – so really this is of little importance unless the battles last years – and they didn’t!
There is a disconnect in that of what the FWL and the CC can accomplish compared to that of what the FS can do in response – the CC is geographically isolated and the FWL’s government (despite all the fake Thomas’s military reforms it is as less than solidified idea. Their Units will not act as one military they are still into the idea of protecting their individual area / dutchie etc is still quite laughable - as evident when the fake Thomas was made known - the military just fractured back to its old ways).
The FS written about at this time frame has only one third of the forces available (The New House Book) to that of the 20 Year Update in an attempt to “Level the playing field”.
Once more the absence of definitive information we are expected to believe in the impossible – and yet given the limited information available we are expected to believe in this scenario and we are expected to believe it will pan out the way it is written.
Sorry to say but this story is not very believable – even with the absence of the LA forces this area should still be incredibly fortified due to its location – its Lords would never leave one of the Great Houses because to do do so would isolate their world from trade / finance / Government Banking requirements / Education requirements and military protection as well as their identity as being a part of one of the Great Houses.
This entire story line is not very believable.
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Warships
Please explain – Warships are the biggest gun on the battlefield and have been used twice – once in the DC and the second in the LA.
As a House Lord who does not have even a single Warship of your own how are you going to protect your realm from the enemies warships who can now park themselves over any world they wish and bomb them back into the stone age with absolute impunity?
Please do explain how you will protect your realm when the only weapon you have that is capable of defending your realm against the warship menace is nuclear?
So either you write in IS warships earlier – allow the IS to retrofit Dropships with massive naval weapons and use them as PT craft – or you allow the establishment of big wing attack aerospace fighter groups with some kind of HE ship killer missile.
As for others using them – consider the time line and the rules of war for that time line – that is the underlying politics of pre 3039 and to that of post 3050 are two completely different periods of time. There is a need to understand the period and the politics without placing on it the values of a future generation.
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Gundam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundam_Universal_Century_technology
Defined Technology within the game!
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But this does not explain jumpships.
Jump-ships establish an artificial quantum wormhole allowing the vessel to move vast distances in space.
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But the developers had to nerf their damage, as it makes the idea of having large armored ships woefully stupid.
Advanced Steiner Stadium Shields – next generation shields – maintain physics and at the same time do not allow the game to become woefully stupid by allowing existing tech to be upgraded. Keep the ships from being killed off in one shot – keeps the Mechs from being destroyed – keeps the idea of nukes from the game.
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Man would never have been able to spread out, as someone with a supply of nukes would have extorted the galaxy with them.
Except everyone agreed not to use them – and the law held – until the arrival of the Clans when they began using WMDs against defenseless planets.
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The raid on Kathil and the one to get the TSM used some.
Thank you for proving my point – using hidden routes / worlds / space stations should be a standard within the game – every Great House should have hidden Bases etc scattered throughout the IS from which to strike out from – thus every Great House should also have a hidden Navy that attempts to find these hidden bases and strike them down.
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The explorer corps unique ships were retconned into the game. This is why they were not seen before hand.
Thus anything ret-conned into the game is automatically given a pass within the game’s history?
As for star maps – during the Star League age every Great House would have had far more superior star charts – ComStar did not even exist at this stage – Plus every great House was attempting to get around the First Lord’s restrictions on the number of weapons they were allowed - thus their ability to create hidden routes / hidden bases / hidden armies should have been well defined prior to that of any of the succession wars.
Disconnect between the game and what ant logical realities of what a House Lord would do?
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And you don't see the flaw in this? It isn't comprehensive reading, it is not reading anything, but putting in a fantasy concepts in the books. Either that, or the logic failure going on is much worse then it looks.
There is a need to understand each era – the people, the culture and the military – as well as understanding the spirit of nationalism and imperialism (are they Left Wing / Right Wing - do they adhere to the underlying politics of the day at the time of the crisis).
Trying to place 3075 values onto a 3050 or even 3020 era setting will only produce apples and oranges.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/15/20 05:40 PM)
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Cray
06/15/20 10:07 PM
71.47.151.234
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Jump-ships establish an artificial quantum wormhole allowing the vessel to move vast distances in space.
No, they don't. I recommend reading Strategic Operations' chapters on JumpShip operations.
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As for star maps – during the Star League age every Great House would have had far more superior star charts – ComStar did not even exist at this stage –
The Houses were heavily dependent on the Terran Alliance's and Hegemony's cartography. From a very early era, Terra didn't share much. It wanted the colonies - the Houses - under its control. Even into the Star League Civil War, the Houses' fleets and armies were quite a bit smaller than the Hegemony's (SLDF's).
Requiem, you're making some very odd assumptions about how the setting and writing works, and doing so from very thin cloth.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
06/15/20 11:33 PM
101.185.79.245
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Cray,
Problem is Strategic Operations is one of the books I have not yet acquired.
Considering the procedure describes encompassing objects with a K-F field and then “jumping” from one point to another this could be considered as a descriptor of a man made worm-hole.
Could a new page be established then so that I can understand the “strategic operations” physics behind their assumption?
Second, from both a historical and a Naval perspective cartography has been one of the strategic operations of every nation in order to expand trade (wealth) and their national borders through colonization (power)...
Erik the Red – beat Columbus by half a millennium in discovering America;
Zheng He – fleet admiral, and regarded as the greatest ever Chinese explorer;
Cook;
Drake;
Magellan;
Columbus;
To believe that a black sea faring nation would rely upon another nation for their cartography requirements is beyond strange. Cleopatra of Egypt was correct – every ship that comes into port with a new “book” would be confiscated / copied and the copy sent to the Library of Alexandria for further study – i.e. every Great House would take a copy of every Navigation Computer of every Jump-Ship (that they could gain access to) that came into their space so that they could expand their cartographical understanding of the universe (plus it is also lucrative for the Captains if they sell their new information) – its planets and its resources and to expand each realms understanding of the unknown space that is out there. This knowledge can be considered to be one of the greatest treasures of every Great House as they expand into the unknown and would be maintained and expanded upon with all due care.
Military fleets are not the issue – exploratory fleets are ….
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Requiem, you're making some very odd assumptions about how the setting and writing works, and doing so from very thin cloth.
Please elucidate me with examples as to my ‘odd assumptions’, as they are not odd to me - so, please assist me in improving my writing – is it the subject material or is something else?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 12:38 AM
66.74.60.165
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How did all that crap come from saying you left out units, so it isn't canon fact? I will call that a bold face lie at this point. Canon facts, or any other type, can not delete parts of it and be a fact. That is called twisting or spinning things by leaving out information.
Warships were used for more then just two instances in the clan invasion and used entirely through out the entire history of the original SL. Even the succession wars had them being used. Your little wolf packs won't work as you think in canon. There isn't enough ships to do more then feed them to warships that they will eventually encounter. That is by far the greater threat, as the Jaguars removed their after their captain violated their traditions. The Falcons didn't even fire a shot. Yet the invasion had more then a dozen of them escorting the assault forces. You say there is no way the clans could have romped thru the defenders, well when you can't put any dropships in the air, or even fighters, it changes a lot, as well as the enemy having orbital surveillance on your forces.
The IS could deal with the warships with other ordinance as the rule say other weapons do more damage. NAC's as well as NPPCs and such do more damage. Or did they change this in battlespace and beyond?
So nuke are NOT the only weapon that can be used. Using them on the clans and saying they wouldn't be used in other situations completely destroys any logic in a story.
The story is unbelievable if you are using just the numbers of forces each side has. I have 4 times what you do, but have to protect 20 times what you do. So I win, as I got more forces. Yet what would you win? The enemy would see they could not hold out, so nukes your forces coming in, and does a grand prix thru your worlds nuking them as well. Even without nukes, simple conventional damage will remove your ability to do much in the future. Your 4 times forces are off in the enemy area, and their forces are destroying your facilities. Raiding them as much as they can. Now you have to find supplies, while they come back and start removing your stranded forces, or even glowing in the dark ones. The numbers game tends to be cancelled out when you have things like nukes. You love to say you would have them all in one location and send them out as needed. This is why you hate nukes. It destroys the turtle defense.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 12:56 AM
66.74.60.165
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As a side note, Grayson died from radiation that leaked from his engine into the cockpit. The engine that produces no radiation, so the entire story tends to show the writers don't bother sticking with the rules.
Do you not read the rules of the game? There are HE missiles that aren't nukes in the game. They are not a one shot weapon, and it would be extremely stupid to even try to make them do that. NOTHING would be safe from them. And the bombing runs of the succession wars, will look like a simple rock throwing contest if you try to bring something like that in. Something that can take out a warship in one shot would make a great way to remove an RCT on the move. But again. this means using logic to the end, and beginning, not just trying to change the middle.
Might need to research the energy shield in the Steiner arena. It was STAR LEAGUE tech. It wasn't made afterwards. It was done before the League fell. And yet only the stadium has any reference to it being used. So major retcon issues there.
Also, why would the shield stop a nuke? I seriously doubt they could go into the sun and survive. Though they did nerf nukes for weapons in the game, yet kept them at full damage for the fall of the SL as well as the succession wars. So again, rules being changed, which changes the entire history of the game.
Agreed to not use them, but did. From the fall of the league to deep in the succession wars, they were used. They were used after the 4th war as well. The agreement is only as good as the honor of the leaders that have them. There was multiple agreements not to use weapons like they were. And all of them were tossed to the side when someone thought they could use them and get away with them. No real punishment so they did get away with it.
They did use hidden facilities in the IS. They got found out as well. Jumpship traffic tends to give away the location, which means if you aren't completely self sufficient, you will be found. Comstar/WOB got away with it, as they controlled the HPG network. Simple coding would garble any coordinates to worlds they wanted to keep a secret. And removing the people that knew of it would happen.
Trying to place 3075 values onto a 3050 or even 3020 era setting will only produce apples and oranges.
This is the very basis of the DC being based on Bushido, but not being fanatically following it. Each new ruler brings with them their own quirks.
But some basics remain. People will think they have no choice but to use nukes when an enemy that can't be stopped by normal means comes for them. It gets really bad, when the people about to die are little and started the whole thing. Nukes tend to give people the illusion of great power. And if you are going to die, you might was well deny the enemy of a clean victory. That is the thinking that goes on.
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Requiem
06/16/20 01:19 AM
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That is called twisting or spinning things by leaving out information.
Explain further – as the first paragraph requires clarification.
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Warships
The issue is how to respond to warships – Assume you are one of the Leaders of a Great House then ask yourself how you are going to deal with the Clans Warships?
What capabilities within your TO&E do you have to deal with them - for if you do not have anything then you might as well surrender now!
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NAC's as well as NPPCs and such do more damage
One question – what are the NACs and NPPCs attached to when engaging a Clan Warship circa 3050 – 3051?
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So I win, as I got more forces.
Tactics and fighting using unorthodox measures will negate the power of the numerically / technologically superior – Vietnam ….
MAD – Mutually Assured Destruction – this is the end sum game for when nuclear ordinance is used in a proliferated manner …. Still does not change the fact the Clans used a WMD on a civilian target and in response DC should have used nuclear weapons against the Jaguar warship (as it is their only available weapon system circa 3050-3051)
Logic dictates that sooner or later ships will be created with one function – the elimination of enemy bases from orbit.
25 June 3144 – Palmyra Disaster – orbital bombardment on the troops on the ground ….
As soon as one warship was used for orbital bombardment the Battlemech era became an almost obsolete weapon system - other than acting for their clean up duties.
The future of war is in warship production.
The only way to negate a warship orbital bombardment is with shield technology!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 12:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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Explain how the rant about the Chaos March being in a strategic location and being rich does not answer how the fact that you left out units from the canon book because you don't like them, then say it is a canon fact hold true? The statement is very simple. Fact is not fact if you leave out information based on a biased view? I can understand not having all the information, but that is not the case here and you said it wasn't.
You ask yourself how do you deal with a warship. You ask yourself how do you deal with an enemy invasion force. This is all part of coming up with tactics tailored to take care of the issue. The resorting to nukes immediately is probably the most common thought, but one that opens up the use of nukes for any reason someone trying to become a dictator would use as an excuse. Barring making your own, as that takes to long, and you won't have a lot for a while, you do things like orbital batteries, placement in the jump zones, even doing the large fighter forces. All take time to do, and need the tech to do it. Except for Turtle Bay, the clans did not use the ships for a bombardment.
Going by your immediate call for nukes, back up some to the point where the IS first learned of the warships in the clan arsenal. It would have been at that point, nukes would have started being used, not after Turtle Bay.
Now what would happen after the IS started getting warships? They violated the agreement to not use them at all, now you have warships that need to be stopped by the enemy. Logical answer, the continued use of them. The FS would have used them to stop the DC invasion after the failed attack on the DC, when the warships took out their forces.
What are the missiles attached to in the invasion period? Ships. You will always need a platform to fire from, or to control the use of the weapons. But wait. You can fire non nukes and do more damage from a fighter, based on the games own rules. So real world logic doesn't apply to this, so non nukes are the better choice. Saying they aren't for the game is ignoring this fact. Also, arguing this for canon is just ignoring the rules.
Warships are built for one thing. Kill anyone that is an enemy. Doesn't matter where they are. So wiping out a world from orbit, or destroying jumpships, or anything in between, they are made for one reason. They will be deployed in any manner when someone feels it is necessary. But warships are not the only thing that can drop things from orbit. Granted asteroids are much harder to control then weapons fire, but it can be done. It can be rigged to drop bombs from orbit as well.
The removing mechs as a way to fight battles was discuss, and the best way to do so would be to make sure the enemy can't get to your worlds. That destroys the game. I don't like that fact, but accept it as it is the truth.
As for shields, the statement above said they should have been utilized in the SL era, when it was invented. The Steiner arena would have been destroyed when it was first realized they had the tech. If no one else, Comstar would have stolen the tech and destroyed the arena. There is no logical way it would still be in use in 3025 given the succession wars damage. Even the Steiners would have ripped it apart to find it's secrets.
So you want something that isn't believable, that is it.
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Requiem
06/16/20 05:47 PM
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you left out units from the canon book
Which units? And from what time frame?
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orbital batteries, placement in the jump zones
Please refer to the forum topic – Nuclear Mines at the Jump Points? For reference, in which it was pointed out ….
“Standard jump points have two problems for mines:
1) They are millions, if not tens of millions, of kilometers across. BT weapon ranges are 900km max, and sensor ranges are mostly a few hundred thousand kilometers. You'd need billions of mines to blanket a standard jump point, and the minefield trick only works once. After that, JumpShips would use anywhere else around the proximity limit of a star system at slightly worse navigational rolls (see StratOps hyperspace travel rules, or prior books like AT2R, BattleSpace, and ye ancient DropShips & JumpShips).
2) Standard jump points are not in orbit around the star, so all the mines need some stationkeeping mechanism - like a fusion engine - to avoid falling into the star. Fusion plumes tend to give away "stealth" mines, as do light sails (see TacOps).
The place to deploy mines are L1 pirate points, which do have quasi-stable orbits and the valid jump area might be less than a few hundred hexes across.”
Similar issues …. Orbital batteries also have the problem that if they do not have a weapon system with a longer range than the warship that arrives in-system, the warship can just stand off and use it for target practice!
Second – Timing – manufacturing will take a long time (years) to produce them in any quantities to be effective on a broad front and then there is the issue of placement – you will need a tug to put them in place as orbital batteries do not have a drive system – ie they are stationary.
Third– as stated many times – How does any of the House lord know the Clans will not use orbital bombardment again?
The Jaguars used it at Turtle Bay and the Falcons threatened to use it a second time.
As the leader of a House can you just ignore the situation and hope it goes away? The simple answer is no you cannot – so what do you do?
So in all reality Orbital batteries are not very effective – even over key worlds they do not offer a high degree of protection when the enemy arrives with a warship.
Thus WoB Drones (similar to the Star League era ones) are your best bet – however there is a timing issue in that they do not exist circa 3050-3051.
So again – what weapon system do you have in your arsenal?
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Now what would happen after the IS started getting warships? They violated the agreement to not use them at all, now you have warships that need to be stopped by the enemy. Logical answer, the continued use of them. The FS would have used them to stop the DC invasion after the failed attack on the DC, when the warships took out their forces.
Sorry but you have lost me here ….
Which agreement did the House Lords agree to that related to the non proliferation of Warships?
Should this be the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons? Ares Conventions – formally renounced at the beginning of the First Succession War – plus Article 1 only forbade their use against civilian targets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet. Thus warships are fair game.
Article 2 forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not anywhere near populated areas.
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What are the missiles attached to in the invasion period? Ships. You will always need a platform to fire from, or to control the use of the weapons. But wait. You can fire non nukes and do more damage from a fighter
Thus as IS warships do not exist circa 3050 – 3051, and modifying a Drop-ship is against the rules – this leaves only the humble fighter – and yet Kamikaze runs into the bridge are a canon fact – what would happen if you detonated a nuclear - warhead after striking through to the internal bridge of warship or for that matter any internal area of a warship?
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Warships are built for one thing. Kill anyone that is an enemy. Doesn't matter where they are. So wiping out a world from orbit, or destroying jumpships, or anything in between,
And yet what does the rules say about fighters?
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That destroys the game
The re-conquest of Terra from the WoB – no didn’t destroy the game …..
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shields,
The early prototype within the Steiner Stadium was built for close Mech Combat;
Sopping anything larger than this might prove a problem;
Thus many years of R&D will be required to improve upon the Mk. I before a serviceable working model can stop WMDs and can be assigned to Mechs as a portable defense unit.
Yes it would not be available in 3025 – however by 3050 when the Clans arrive and their warships arrive this is another issue all together.
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So you want something that isn't believable, that is it.
Steiner stadium
Blue shield Particle Field Damper System
Sounds like the start of the IS technology is there – just need additional time and R&D and who knows how far it will go.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 07:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stop responding if you can remember what you wrote or reread it.
Canon Fact …….
20 Year Update –
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments (not including the 4 I removed due to the impossibility of their existence)
This is the post put up by you. Removing units and saying it is fact is completely wrong.
There is no statement of placing mines. Simple control ship, such as a dropship, can activate remote 'drones' to fire on incoming ships. I want to say this is part of teleoperated missile mechanics. The SDS system in a skeletal form would work. Transports and such can be used as the delivery package, if you don't want to waste useable dropships. Fighters could be done as well. Trying to say they can be jammed yet the WOB ones couldn't is where the games bs come into effect. But then lock onto target, and send off the 'missile'. No need for updates as the onboard computer can drive it into the enemy ship.
As they did in all wars, you research things you don't have to counter the enemy's advantages. Radar came about to counter air raids, as well as anti air. Machine guns removed the cavalry threat. This is part of why the IS lost so much territory. They were looking into countering the warships when the truce went into effect. It also explains why they didn't have reinforcements hitting behind clan lines as you didn't know how many warships they had. This is also why the wolfpack idea wouldn't work well.
Can't figure out that if the IS gets warships, they would ABSOLUTELY bombard worlds with them, and not the bs exceptions. They would drop them directly on capitals and any place they thought would destroy the enemy forces, even those doing patrols in an other wise civilian city. They did so with nukes and other WMDs. Both the CC and the DC used poisons since 3025, and continue to use them. Warships would be more easy to use, and they do NOT irradiate the worlds. As you said about the HPG. They would find a way to use it as a weapon. Warships are just a gun waiting for an excuse to be used. And some moron would definitely use it.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 07:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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What happens when you do a Kamikaze run with a non nuke in the game? Wow. You can do more damage, even if you don't penetrate to the bridge. No need for the nukes. But better yet, use those very non nuke missiles and fire them, while the fighter changes course to continue functioning and doing more damage. What a concept.
It should not be that hard to make a force ejection to push a bomb away from a fighter without it going off. Or use the jumpbomber principle and let inertia take the bomb into a ship.
The use of nukes WILL cause others to start using them, as the excuse of losing without them will play out more and more. You can not sterilize the game and say it is logical or realistic. You can try and make sure those playing do NOT use the weapons like this. Removal is changing the whole game and history. The SL and first wars would not have had the nukes being used, so therefore, more non radioactive damage would have been done, as well as more casualties on both sides, as ground fights would be more prevalent.
With a fighter or any other type of non warship units, you have to be in range of them firing back, or 'seeing their eyes'. A warship is basically an ICBM on steroids. You can bombard things and not have to realize those blips are people. Full city destruction at the press of a single button. It disconnects the power mad morons that would mash the button like a sewing machine in use from seeing the people dieing from it. It is worse then nukes in the aspect that it is not a one time use weapon. Bombs are about the only weapon on a fighter that isn't a targeted weapon. They are limited to basically what they are shooting at, and some missed shots.
The game is Battle tech, not Aerotech, or battle space. The entire thing they call the WOB event is crap. That is not really in debate.
Did you bother seeing the statement before it being bs? The point where it has been around since before the fall of the Star League but never used in anything but the arena? Guess not. Or maybe comprehensive reading can't distort that.
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Requiem
06/17/20 12:26 AM
101.185.79.245
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20 Year Update –
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments (not including the 4 I removed due to the impossibility of their existence)
By citing this book which units, circa 3050, have I removed and have by doing so made a factual error?
Are you attempting to say that the second house books (which have a new unit list) is the true canon list? However if this is so how do you go from the 20 year update to tis new book when you compare the 20 year update to those units assigned to the Clan Invasion?
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No need for updates as the onboard computer can drive it into the enemy ship.
i.e. a Kamikaze attack.
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Simple control ship, such as a dropship, can activate remote 'drones' to fire on incoming ships
Dragu – Year introduced 3065 - Problem is that only the WoB have access to this information to manufacture control equipment for a drop-ship and then there is the second problem that they were introduced in 3065 – Thus for 3050 – 3051 they do not exist and as such will have no ability to actually do anything in the initial invasion. There is also the problem that anything drop-ship sized can be fired upon by the war-ship thus creating the problem as being able to actually close on the warship to cause any damage whatsoever becomes a highly improbable event unless their gunners don’t know what they are doing and the drop-ship can outrun the warship over an extended period of time and then there is also the problem of the control signal’s range from the command unit to the drone drop-ships the command unit will have to remain within range to control their drones so what happens when the warship spots the command unit and decides to target it.
Thus making this idea as about as useful as putting a cat flap in an elephant house circa 3050-3051.
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This is part of why the IS lost so much territory. They were looking into countering the warships when the truce went into effect
Really? 31 October 3050 to November 3051 when Operation Revival resumes with the 5th Wave
Capital Missiles? Rediscovered by FS in 3051 – However were not formally introduced to 3056?
Thus making them of no use whatsoever with the resumption of war and only become of any use during the a few years into the 15 year truce?
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It also explains why they didn't have reinforcements hitting behind clan lines as you didn't know how many warships they had.
This is still a tactically sound move for the wolf pack operating within the deep periphery – pitiful writing and plot development in my opinion is the issue here.
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Can't figure out that if the IS gets warships, they would ABSOLUTELY bombard worlds with them, and not the bs exceptions. They would drop them directly on capitals and any place they thought would destroy the enemy forces, even those doing patrols in an other wise civilian city. They did so with nukes and other WMDs. Both the CC and the DC used poisons since 3025, and continue to use them.
And?
BattleMechs are therefore no longer the Kings of the battlefield, warships are!
So circa 3050-3051 all the Clans need to do is send their warships out as their vanguard and their reguar units can just mop up and garrison what ever remains.
And as the IS do not have any ability to stop the Clans they win ……
So how are your House Lords going to stop this from eventuating as this must have been a real fear for them?
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What happens when you do a Kamikaze run with a non nuke in the game?
There are game rules and then there are real world physics rules (which requires house rules).
If you believe in one over the over go with what works.
However – one issue regarding missiles fired from aerospace fighters - Anti ship missiles came into the game in 3071 – 20 years too late for the initial invasion of 3050-3051. Thus we are back to Kamikaze….
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The use of nukes WILL cause others to start using them,
Correct – so you have two options – one continue using them with impunity or two drive everyone to a summit and hash out a new Ares conventions rules.
Even the Clans would realize that it is in their best interest to come to a summit and hash out the rules.
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You can bombard things and not have to realize those blips are people.
For drop-ship and above yes.
For aerospace fighter – no – the rules of warships with regards to a fighters attack is clear?
They send out their own fighters or make a run for it and when the IS fighters get within standard LRM AA range the warship can open fire then – and by then one Kamikaze (using real world physics rules) and adios warship …
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The game is Battle tech, not Aerotech, or battle space.
And yet the box set exists ….
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the WOB event is crap.
And yet the technology for this era exists ….
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Did you bother seeing the statement before it being bs? The point where it has been around since before the fall of the Star League but never used in anything but the arena? Guess not. Or maybe comprehensive reading can't distort that.
And yet it has been studied for how long?
Can anyone explain why it has not been reverse engineered and used on a industrial scale to protect cities and warships?
Like many things that become a technological liability in the game they are consigned to the scrap heap – whereas in any true military fashion it would have been weaponized asap …..
Just add it to the list of things that do not make any sense in the game ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/17/20 12:27 AM)
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ghostrider
06/17/20 01:15 AM
66.74.60.165
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Kamikaze is not the same as guided missile attacks. Kamikaze is human flow suicide units.
And the fact that you can remotely fly ships means you can do something close to the SDS. You have a controller that controls one ship, and have banks of those controllers. Once you lock in the targeting of a ship, it should keep going towards that ship. Visual recognition should suffice. But then it would seem all advance targeting systems were nuked before the SL was dead.
What is wrong with looking for a way to counter the warships when the truce went into effect? Discoveries don't happen in a week for large scale weapons. It took the FS 5 years to make the missiles. So where is this a really concept? Had the truce not been done, they would have been deployed sooner. Once the truce went into effect, they were not needed as badly. So again. Where is the really concept coming from?
It is a poor tactical plan to send the few ships you have, in order to try and find a supply line that could very well have warships there to wipe out the entire force, or worse, capture it and use it to get forces into more locations that no one knows they are there. Again, the comprehensive reading skills have been wrong on the canon numbers. The fantasy looking glass seems to be over used. The alt is not canon. Your numbers for the alt are not used in canon. Saying canon had your numbers and blew using them correctly doesn't work.
So you think the game would be better using warships to wipe out worlds, over having soldiers piloting mechs? And you think this would not destroy the game? Then do so with the alt, and stop even hinting at canon being part of it. This would make life so much easier then fixing what you can an impossible to believe story line that is full of holes. This is the primary logical sense. Stop using the flawed background and start from new. But that isn't what you want. You want everyone to change the game to your view.
As stated before, this is not presenting an alternative game line, but a means to say the developers are wrong for writing their story, their way, for their game.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 01:32 AM
66.74.60.165
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Does the game say nukes are the ultimate weapon? No.
Does that mean arguing the game rules support your view of what should happen? No.
Arguing the Death Star can destroy a world, so therefore, it should exist in Battle Tech? No.
If the Space Fold system on the SDF1 works, it should work in Battle Tech? No.
Reread up above where it says leave canon completely and start a new universe. This one is full of holes and will never work. Sheesh.
So look at it logically. There were agreements already in place not to use WMDs before in the game and that was broken. So you suggest agreeing not to use them again will stop them from being used in the future, and you believe this will work?
Two words. Logic fail.
Agreements only last as long as punishment can be done, or it helps those in the agreement. Once one side thinks they can get away with it, they will. Suggesting using nukes on an enemy turns you into the whole WOB offensive.
Your complaint about the FS being pretty well destroyed when the DC wiped out their forces from orbit is the exact thing that will happen if you allow warships to rule. Soon the only way to survive is in traveling packs, that drop to a world for resources only.
The Aerotech box set came out to support the BattleTech box set. It was meant to allow players to play the space part of an invasion, either being the attacker or defender. It was not meant to replace ground combat. But as people have said, air power will ultimately destroy ground combat when brought to the logical conclusion. So they didn't push Aerotech. Warships are a mistake to bring back into the game. The balance on them is too greatly out of balance. Not powerful enough, and the costs make them useless. Too powerful, and those that don't have them lose quickly. One good warship will take worlds with just the threat of bombarding them.
Again, you fail to understand the importance of it being around in the SL times. It was never USED in that time. So the retcon is bad enough there, but the ENTIRE history of the IS from the SL is screwed up. Nothing to protect SL assets including their warships, worlds, stations, and so on. This would have dramatically shifted the balance in the periphery wars to the point of not needing the forces on Terra to be depleted so badly. Then the attacks on Terra. This could well have destroyed the SLDF before they even got to Terra, as the tech would be in Amaris hands.
Now this tech not being used in the first war means things like Defiance were damaged. If not, then the entire first war would have been different.
And the question of HOW the Tech got into Steiner hands isn't answered. Was it in Mariks hands then went to Steiner when Solaris was taken? Was there other examples scattered around the IS? Focus on the whole story, not just the little slice you don't like. This is where logic comes in. The WHOLE story.
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Requiem
06/17/20 04:02 AM
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Kamikaze is not the same as guided missile attacks. Kamikaze is human flow suicide units.
Correct.
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And the fact that you can remotely fly ships means you can do something close to the SDS.
Except for the fact that canon technology does NOT allow remotely controlled aerospace fighters circa 3050-3051.
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What is wrong with looking for a way to counter the warships when the truce went into effect?
1 year truce - How are you going to get the Clans to agree to attend a summit when their Khans and sa-khans are on their way back to the Clan Home worlds to decide who the next il-Khan is?
15 year truce – How are you going to get the Khans to agree to anything when they have just been beaten by the ComGuards?
To get the Clans to a sit down summit you will need to create a imperative event to force them to the table i.e. multiple nuclear strikes committed by Lyran and Combine forces.
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Had the truce not been done, they would have been deployed sooner.
Sorry but the technological development of a new weapon system is not dependent upon on whether a truce occurs or not – it is usually due to materials, energy, technology breakthroughs etc….. so the future date cannot be changed.
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Once the truce went into effect, they were not needed as badly. So again. Where is the really concept coming from?
And yet everyone is going to believe in the power of a signed piece of paper ……. How well did that work for Chamberlain (WW2) when e declared Peace in our time?
If it holds, great …. But when if and when it is broken every force must be ready for the repercussions …. And that means anti ship missiles.
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It is a poor tactical plan to send the few ships you have, in order to try and find a supply line that could very well have warships there to wipe out the entire force
First, no one can tell what the is the number of jumships available – the only thing that comes close is the 4th Succession War – and when comparing the number of units in the field during 3050-3051 to that of the 4th Succession War it is clear there is a massive surpluss of ships available.
Second, research the idea and the strategies of theWW2 Wolfpack …..
Third, The Alt History has never been that same as that of the Canon History – thus comparing apples to oranges again ….
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So you think the game would be better using warships to wipe out worlds, over having soldiers piloting mechs? And you think this would not destroy the game?
Comprehension of what I wrote once more?
If one side has warships and the other does not and you are told you are not allowed any weapon system to fight the warships – question is would you use that warship to win ensuring your side does not sustain casualties whist inflicting massive damage to your enemy because you have a weapon system that can reduce your enemies forces to ‘scarp’ metal?
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As stated before, this is not presenting an alternative game line, but a means to say the developers are wrong for writing their story, their way, for their game.
Are you happy with the Clan Invasion arc? Anything you want to change ….
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Does the game say nukes are the ultimate weapon? No.
Then answer the question – 3050 – 3051 what weapon system within your TO&E do you have to fight against Clan Warships?
As the only weapon system that can get close enough is aerospace fighter – and then the only legal canon attack is using a bombing run – so what are you going to do next?
Plus historically and culturally the Kamikaze has been used previously with a samurai culture?
Plus the death star is not the greatest science fiction weapon – Have a look at the Gall Force Weapon System – The System Killer where they turn a star into a supernova!
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So you suggest agreeing not to use them again will stop them from being used in the future, and you believe this will work?
One of the biggest issues in the game is maintaining balance
Where is the balance? when one side has warships and the other does not and when you come up with a means of destroying those warships (and thus returning balance to the game) you are told you are a game heretic!
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Your complaint about the FS being pretty well destroyed when the DC wiped out their forces from orbit is the exact thing that will happen if you allow warships to rule.
And yet this occurred in canon …. So, how long before this occurs again – and then all the time as WMDs were used in the Jihad era ….. and yet after the Jihad era how many times have WMDs been used?
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The Aerotech box set came out to support the BattleTech box set…...
Regimental Combat Teams – Any military comprises combat, support, transport elements that must work together to achieve a common goal – Space, Air, Ground and Water
Eliminating any of these elements, in my opinion, creates a limited and sanitized game – the game should be fighting your way to the world – through the drop – landing – and from there into a massive battle until one side wins or loses. Thus the need for many maps to make the game a more strategic and comprehensive game.
If you want a sanitized version of a campaign then that is your choice.
If there are problems with the game then get TPTB to devise new rules so that the game flows better … or create your own home rules ….
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Again, you fail to understand the importance of it being around in the SL times. It was never USED in that time. So the retcon is bad enough there, but the ENTIRE history of the IS from the SL is screwed up.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steiner_Stadium
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nashan_Diversified
Steiner Stadium – what back story?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 12:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Well does that mean the rules need to be changed before you can do anything about a rewrite? It is entirely a hole in the rules saying remote controlled things don't work in the game. Which is a contradiction to the fact they had automated things like miner and assembly machines. The SDS is a big contradiction to this. But then if they did have it, someone would definitely say they could have remote controlled mechs and such.
Who said anything about a summit? The context of the discussion on looking for ways to counter the warships was with weapon systems. A summit is not going to do much but end with no results, or be broken when the first opportunity arises.
And the date can be changed for research. Once the truce went into effect, research would be cut back, as they were not needed as urgently as it would be if the war was still raging. Funds would be moved over to rebuilding things as well as trying to aid those worlds that were hit but didn't fall. Another simple thing that seems to be lacking in the 'view'.
Funny. No one would believe in the truce, yet they would believe in the same concept of a signed agreement not to use the weapons they agreed not to use in the past and was violated several times? There is a difference in the truce. The current clan rulers would abide by their word. Anyone replacing them would be suspect. Even the Jaguars and Falcons would abide by the agreement. It was made by their Ilkhan.
Read the wiki and the jumpships and dropships books. It is PRINTED that the numbers are around 2000-3000 jumpships. This was pointed out a few times, so the lie of it not being printed needs to stop.
And if canon and alt were apples and oranges, why do you continue to say canon is wrong, then compare it to the alt? Logic, weither basic or advanced, seems to be missing in this thought.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 01:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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What the hell are aerofighters and assault dropships? There ARE weapons that can be used. I am not saying they are very effective, but they are there. You claim there are so many fighters in the FC/DC, so where are they? And with this, it is more realistic that one side has weapons the other side doesn't. Fair has NEVER been the norm in any sort of combat situation, or war.
And to answer your question on if someone would use a warship to inflict damage on the enemy, maybe you should actually read the entire clan invasion. Only once was a warship used to take out a target with bombardment. So no. They did NOT use it to wipe out an enemy to spare their ground forces. Much like nukes, the warship should not be something that is used like people would use them for. I don't see you complaining the CC didn't use nukes in order to stop the FS from ripping them apart. You specifically said they would not, yet this is the same scenario with different weapons.
As said, fighters and dropships are two weapons you can use to stop a warship. Not effective by there. Then you have the ability to board the warship and take it. Again, not effective.
As a side note, I have not heard of the gail force weapon, but then the death star was not used on a star. Destabilizing it would be possible with the death stars beam. And yet, neither exists in BattleTech, so what do either matter? Nukes are not the ultimate weapon in Battle tech.
The balance thing is why there has been no real advantage kept by any of the houses. They destroyed the balance with the formation of the FC. So far, they have not done anything that fixes this issue, but caused even more when trying. Now with the next 'big war', they may well have the DC break apart, allowing the FS to regain New Avalon and push the DC back. But with the FC going like it was, it was only a matter of time before the economic might, coupled with the better tactics of the FS, before they ruled it all. The civil war is the thing that stopped it, yet that should not have happened. But it did. Oh well. They need war to sell the product, and that means choices people aren't going to like.
Wait. Didn't Comstar and WOB come from the SL before it fell? The very beginning of not using nukes to advance their military position? Yet they were falling heavily during the Amaris war. The SLDF use them when the left for their own worlds, and Comstar/WOB were not caught using them. So the organization went from not using them, to trying to rid itself of their stockpile in a fit of rage. So where is this signed paper saying they won't use them gone? Oh yeah. Like any agreement, someone will violate it if it doesn't agree with their goals. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try. It just says don't rely on it.
So what does the Aerotech box set being in support of the game have to do with not destroying the main part of the game? Warships were not originally part of it. RCTs can function without warships. Warships will destroy the ground game.
That whole argument tries to counter the fact that you are not presenting an alternative, but using the alt to rip on the developers and game itself.
And a sanitized game.. Funny. You think that you can remove WMD and not have a sanitized game. They are more part of the game then warships are. I don't like it, but that is fact.
Oh. Now you see the issue with the forcefields. It must have been left by an alien race as it just appears and is being used for a sporting event using battlefield weapons. No back story, which means they don't have to explain anything about it. And hoping people forget about it, so there isn't a push to find out where it came from and why it wasn't used. Imagine all those worlds that might have been saved, or less damaged when the nukes were being used. The shield detonates missiles instead of being hit by them. Would that mean bombs exploding in the upper atmosphere/space instead of ground level? The entire history of the devastation would not have been there with the use? Or certain areas spared the horrors? Yeah. I can see why this wasn't presented in anything other then secret tech being used to make one arena different from the others.
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Requiem
06/17/20 06:18 PM
101.185.79.245
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……someone would definitely say they could have remote controlled mechs and such.
And yet the rules say otherwise and as such you are therefore outside canon and into the area of House Rules for a re-write Alt Universe.
So unless you break the canon rules here you do not get a remote controlled aerospace fighter until the Jihad era.
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Who said anything about a summit?
Me,
3050-3051 - In a universe where one side has warships and the other does not (and at the same time the rules say you are not allowed to manufacture PT Dropship Craft and you are also not allowed ship killer missiles) you are left with but one option – Nuclear Devices (with House rules utilizing real world physics) with aerospace fighters.
So again unless you break the canon rules here (with regards to construction rules / when ship killer missiles are allowed into the game) there is really only two options – Nuclear war (again using real world physics and not the firecrackers in the game) on the same scale as that of the Jihad era with the Clans or two you have a summit and hash out the rules regarding not only warships but all WMDs on the Battlefield with the Clans.
Also, if anyone breaks the summit agreement the IS and the Clans immediately return the M.A.D. scenario of nuclear apocalypse.
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Rules – restoring balance to the game - Warships
This is one of the areas the Canon game, within the Clan Invasion, that everything falls over.
Hanse, Theodore and his father Takashi are all alive in 3050-3051.
The Clans have used their warships twice and the Cannon setting expects us to believe that these three people will just take it right up __________ and do nothing!
This is so against their characters it is not funny.
The warship is the biggest gun on the battlefield and as such must now become the primary target for all the IS militaries.
There are no PT Drop-ships with Naval weapons (as this will take time to manufacture pocket warships) – Thus this leaves only the fighter to engage the Warship circa 3050-3051 – and this therefore requires the biggest bang you can get (in cannon this means HE is more destructive than nuclear – in the real world this would be the other way around) – so you get a nuclear war against clan warships! – or/- you further break the timeline rules and allow ship killer missiles in at an earlier stage than that of canon with HE warheads that can severely damage warships.
The only other option is to allow the IS to have warships prior to the Clan Invasion so that Naval engagements can take place. Or/- Warships are banned from the game altogether.
These therefore are the only logical paths that can be considered for an accurate 3050-3051 Clan Invasion setting.
Thus as a GM choose you poison ….. how many / which canon rules do you want to break to create a more level battlefield ?
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Funds would be moved over to rebuilding things as well as trying to aid those worlds that were hit but didn't fall. Another simple thing that seems to be lacking in the 'view'.
Logic dictates quite the opposite – the warship is the biggest gun on the battlefield and as such must be considered the primary kill target – As such R&D is required to remove this treat asap – i.e. Ship killer missiles must become reality asap – thus more funding to make it a reality asap.
When the Bismarck was let loose in WW2 did they just allow it free reign or did they hunt it down and kill it asap?
QED
Pitiful plot development is no excuse for doing nothing at this stage with regards to Clan Warships.
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Funny. No one would believe in the truce, yet they would believe in the same concept of a signed agreement not to use the weapons they agreed not to use in the past and was violated several times?
WW1 – Poison Gas en mass; WW2 – treaty and no one uses poison gas only HE.
Canon – The 15 year truce ….
The concept of a signed non proliferation agreement can hold in war time even with all the Clans!
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It is PRINTED that the numbers are around 2000-3000 jumpships.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:JumpShip_distribution “There is little canonical data regarding the total number of JumpShips operating in the Inner Sphere, or what classes even exist in which numbers….”
Best guess is NOT fact – there are NO facts anywhere as to the numbers / class distribution every House has at any time frame. All that can be done is to make a best guess as to the numbers / class available and my guess is far removed from yours. My Logic therefore holds.
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What the hell are aerofighters and assault dropships? There ARE weapons that can be used.
In a 3050-3051 setteing
It will be another 6 years (3057) before Drop-ships are beginning to be equipped with naval weapons – plus Clan Warships’ weapons can track and kill something as large as a drop-ship.
Aerospace fighters are small and fast enough so that the warships’ main naval weapons cannot be used aginst them – the Navy has aerospace fighters in numbers to engage the clans
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so where are they?
Attached to individual Units
Unattached and operating as their own units
Attached to Merchant Naval operations
…. More than enough aerospace fighters (refer back to previous forum this was discussed in detail)
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Only once was a warship used to take out a target with bombardment. So no. They did NOT use it to wipe out an enemy to spare their ground forces.
As stated who knows how many times …. How does the leaders of the IS know the Clans will not use them in this manner again? Their mere presence is a threat that needs to removed from the battlefield …. So do the leaders of the IS know this through tea readings or using an Ouija board or how about they used blood hounds …… (satire!)
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I don't see you complaining the CC didn't use nukes in order to stop the FS from ripping them apart. You specifically said they would not, yet this is the same scenario with different weapons.
This is apples and oranges once more …. Two different time frames and political / military situations ….
Refer back to Forum – Operation Rat Revival
Yes the CC can use them – However FedCom will return in kind and at the same time. Also if they do use them then Sun Tzu and Kali’s ability to ever regain the throne is now 0.0000000000000001% as no one will trust them again.
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fighters and dropships are two weapons you can use to stop a warship. Not effective by there. Then you have the ability to board the warship and take it. Again, not effective.
Drop-ships – can be targeted by warship’s main naval weapon batteries;
Aerospace fighters – can bypass naval weapons and can only be stopped with opposing fighters or by the warships AA standard batteries.
However if you use true physics nuclear warheads rather than AE – one 5KT strike, even a near miss detonation, and the ship will be obliterated. As for the Canon HE warheads – yes you can use them however the massive number of direct hits required to cripple a warship may pose a problem – where as in comparison to one real world nuke.
Shuttles – how many are armored for combat – and they will have to be under 5,000Kg (otherwise the warships main naval batteries can pick them up as a target). – Then the fighter will have to breach the warships fighter doors to allow the shuttle and its crew of marines to gain access - and from there they will have to capture the warship, deck by deck – so how many marines can you put in a shuttle?
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Nukes are not the ultimate weapon in Battle tech.
Then what is?
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They destroyed the balance with the formation of the FC. So far, they have not done anything that fixes this issue, but caused even more when trying.
Then consider the discrepancy between the 20 year update book and that of the second House Books – FedCom went from 280 Regiments down to about 110 Regiments with no explanation whatsoever.
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Oh well. They need war to sell the product, and that means choices people aren't going to like.
Unless something changes soon the table top version of the game will fall. Not enough access to new products and new gamers. However the real issues stem from the mismanagement of the product when the TV series was put out – marketing / production issues should have transformed the game into something similar to Warhammer and yet ………
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Comstar
Formed after the Amaris War – prior to exodus – is recognized as a pacifist organization until the end of the 4th SW – when the ComGuard is used for the first time as guards on their HPG stations.
WoB used them ….
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So where is this signed paper saying they won't use them gone?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ares_Conventions
Refer to section entitled Signers – sorry to say but ComStar did not ever sign the document – so like any agreement if you don’t sign it you cannot be held for violating it ….
And again if someone did violate it then the game goes straight to M.A.D. Jihad on steroids.
There comes a time when everyone needs to rely on the documents less madness will ensure ….
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what does the Aerotech box set being in support of the game have to do with not destroying the main part of the game?
The warship is now part of the game ….. or should we remove all omni as they were never part of the original box sets?
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You think that you can remove WMD and not have a sanitized game.
If WMDs are a fact of the game then what is conventional warfare? Or should have the US military used nukes in Korea, Vietnam …… and every other engagement they have been in for the past 75 years?
Should they have been used throughout the entire 4th SW rather than the one in the CC?
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Now you see the issue with the forcefields..
Steiner Coliseum is a Star League Lost Tech device – like the Black Boxes these technological marvels should have been integrated into the game …..
Like all technology – they can be a benefit or a detriment to the game it all comes down to their rules and their application within the game ….
They could have been used to remove nukes from the game ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 06:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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It is very stupid that remote control technology would be lost. But it does follow the bs I have been calling out. It doesn't work unless the enemy threat 'invents' it. The rules say 30 light years is the max for a jump. It was that way for years. Now WOB went further and it is only now they add in safely to the range.
The clans would never sit down and agree to not using warships. It is part of their history and nature. As most don't really care that much for their civvies, there is no way they are caring about the IS civvies. And for all the houses to hit anyone that violates the agreement? Hasn't happened in the past. No wars were stopped so they could hit someone using banned weapons. It won't change in the future. Not saying an agreement wouldn't happen with the IS powers, but I know it won't hold.
Warships were used once for a bombardment. The other incident used the threat of annihilation to force a surrender. It has been done in the past and will in the future. The thing that should be focused on for something like this is Phelan discussing what would happen to one world if they fought. Not from the bridge of a warship, but on the ground where he could be shot. And the leaders were doing things to try and counter the warships. Most of it was trying to get research done to deal with them. They are warlords. That is not in debate. But as warlords, they know when you are just feeding an enemy troops with little hope of defeating them. Takashi knew this, which is why he wasn't so keen on sending troops into battle that they would only get killed in. This is why the fight to the death bs doesn't happen like you want. Withdraw, repair, then re hit. Might be elsewhere but live to fight another day is very valid in the DC. Cowardice, such as having a lance of mechs face one infantryman and the mechs run is an example. Good faith effort is the key. But still something that won't register as you think any military personnel in the DC should stand and die.
This is logic. War is not fair. Someone always has a better weapon.
Now. The nukes are not that powerful in the game, so just drop it from your complaint about canon and the warships. You want it in the alt, then do so. This is yet another reason why you need to just drop canon and do a pure alt universe. But you would rather complain and rip on the developers for the hell of it.
Go to the official website and put this up. I seriously doubt you aren't banned from there. And that is the main place to go in order to get things changed.
Besides death matches the bs of leveling sides is garbage. If you claim to be in a campaign then you should not be changing out mechs because it doesn't fit in the battlefield. You are assigned to an archer, then you use it even if you are in a dense forest. Switching to a Hunchback is bs.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 07:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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Let's see. The Bismarck was an unsupported ship that faced warships, not things like PT boats. It took a fleet of warships to take it down. Had it had a proper escort, the Bismarck may have been alive today. Now for more information. The U.K. knew it had to take it down, or risk every ship in their nation. It wasn't like they were in Canada, where they had time to come up with a way to counter it. The distance is where your calculations go wrong. It isn't like you can have a fleet go from say the U.S. and have them on the African coast in an hour or two. Reaction forces are the next thing you will scream about, yet the entire front has need for them. Do you think they would sit in one spot until a specific world called, unless it was an ambush. And then they are not a reaction force, but the ambush support.
When one world says it's under attack, the reaction force heads to it. When a dozen worlds say they are under attack and you only have one or two forces ready, where do the others come from?
From the logic in the alt, they pop out of the butts of those in trouble. In canon, they don't exist. So this complaint is a bust.
With the immediate threat over with, research to deal with it would be shifted to other things as the funds would be what would dictate it. Where do you thing some of the funds to rebuild and fortify the borders come from? Oh yeah. The nations have unlimited funds and resources.
Again, putting up only half of a statement to try and lie. The original jumpships and dropships said around 2000 jumpships were in service for the game. The wiki says 2000-3000 but notes that this isn't likely as it would not cover much. This was already posted a while back when this very subject was put to rest. If you can't remember that, then it explains why logic continually fails.
The IS didn't have capital weapons during the invasion, so you use what you have. The issue is, what they had wasn't much. If they could, a massive fleet could engage the warship and take it out. It would be very costly to the IS nation that did so. But it was still something that could be done. The scenario you paint is akin to someone with a shot gun and 20 shots having to face the entire army of an enemy nation. This isn't the case.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 07:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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The previous post does NOT have numbers of how many fighters are in the IS. If there were so many, then why did Towne only have a single fighter to protect it from the Black Dragons? How is it that a single Leopard dropship can land a lance of mechs without being destroyed by the hornet's nest of fighters? Oh yeah. These ISN'T the nest.
Two different military situations? The CC was being wiped out as a nation. The FC is being invaded and seems to be getting wiped out.
The CC had an overwhelming force coming in, and the people did not agree with the practices of the FS to rule them.
Hmmm. Then Comstar cuts off communications for both scenarios.
Apples and oranges applies only because of your personal preference. Then you complained that the FS gets ripped apart by the DC. Should the FS have used nukes to prevent this? In your scenario, the FS can do what ever, and no one can do it back. That doesn't work.
No explanation? They may not have said every little unit lost in the books, but start with the 3039 war. They lost a lot of units with that. Border wars and well as dealing with trying to pacify the Terran march would have worn down some of the units. And then add in how many were put into permanent garrisons. But it does go against their practice of having 10 new regiments formed for the 4th war. As written somewhere, they tried to rebalance the game. It failed.
The Ares convention. How long did that last before all the nations that signed it broke it? So it was toilet paper. This is the very thing some nations use to continue to do things that are horrible, and get away with it. Sign pacts and treaties, but still continue their old ways. And soon, they have done so much garbage, that when those that did sign finally have had enough, the idea of a treaty is brought up and the pattern repeats.
Still didn't answer how Aerotech being put out to support the main ground battle game and not destroying the main ground game have to do with breaking the balance?
The omni is a unit that was hinted at with the Mongoose mech. The game even says that, but the SL fell before it became a fact. Omnis can not bombard the surface from orbit. They have to land and become the dreaded land combat part of the game. Imagine that.
The use of, and the removal of is not the same thing. It is the threat of nukes that is better then actual use of them. I guess this is something you don't understand. It is how you keep an enemy from attacking you, as they fear the use of something that will kill them in large numbers. To actually use it, means anyone outside of this starts wondering if you will use it on them. Arms race comes to mind.
I don't know how to explain it any simpler. The shield technology was something that should have been addressed in the League books, and actually used. The fact that it's only use it the Steiner arena makes it a magical tech that should not exist at all.
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Requiem
06/17/20 09:05 PM
101.185.79.245
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It is very stupid that remote control technology would be lost.
Agree.
Considering the level of accuracy that can be used for drones - and then the next generation Q58-A Valkyrie stealth fighter drone …
Time to establish new construction house rules – and I have my unmanned Kamikaze aerospace fighter ….. (if needed)
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The clans would never sit down and agree to not using warships. It is part of their history and nature.
Then there are four choices …
1. M.A.D. Nuclear war that will make the Jihad era look sane;
2. Allow all IS militaries maintain Naval assets / ship killer missiles prior to the Clans arrival;
3. Remove all Clan Naval assets;
4. Allow all IS militaries access to next generation energy shield technology.
Out of these only number two (Allow all IS militaries maintain Naval assets / ship killer missiles prior to the Clans arrival) can be considered to be realistic for my Alt Universe Game.
(…. and in my opinion should have been included into the Canon game …. As the cannon story has too many issues.)
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As most don't really care that much for their civvies, there is no way they are caring about the IS civvies.
Not caring …. Thus partisan activity upon every captured world is now way beyond the initial 3% of the world they capture. Thus lets be conservative and increase this to 30% of the population of every world.
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No wars were stopped so they could hit someone using banned weapons.
History: George W Bush, Iraq and WMDs
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This is why the fight to the death bs doesn't happen like you want. Withdraw, repair, then re hit.
Question: How can you re-hit if every time you attempt to do so you forces are hit from space with impunity from a Clan Warship?
How can you fight if you are afraid of killing your troops?
So what is the immediate response necessary to keep your ground forces safe from an orbital bombardment?
With the only weapon delivery system available being an aerospace fighter it completely limits the games narrative.
Time to make changes!
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Someone always has a better weapon.
And then someone builds a better shield ….
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But you would rather complain and rip on the developers for the hell of it.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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If you claim to be in a campaign then you should not be changing out mechs because it doesn't fit in the battlefield. You are assigned to an archer, then you use it even if you are in a dense forest. Switching to a Hunchback is bs.
This is why you need an Avatar (OmniMech).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/20 03:08 AM
66.74.60.165
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The fact that remote controls are not just military items. Remote control cars, planes and other toys would have to be missing entirely. And that would mean the Hi-Scout is illegal, as it has remote control drones that it sends out scouting.
The choices put up might be good for the alt, it would never work for the canon. The reason why is simple. With equal footing of tech and units, there is no real challenge the developers can come up with to challenge the IS. Nothing short of introducing aliens into the game could provide the numbers needed to really threaten everything. Honest, if that happens the game is done for.
As a side note, saying the game needs this or that from another game is the fact that it is copyrighted, and honestly, why play BattleTech if it is like other games that are set up for those rules/units? They have the system worked out.
Turtle Bay would not be the only one if the worlds caused that many problems. As said. The clans would not care how many died, as they are only IS barbarian freeborns. Not many could achieve anything in the clans, so why waste resources on keeping them? The base line of thought for a clanner.
Huh? No wars were stopped so someone could hit someone using banned weapons... was the statemen. How does the Iraq war come into this? The Iraq war was done to stop someone using those weapons. It isn't like Iran stopped harassing the countries involved so they could take out those banned weapons.
Let me get this straight. The fact that the IS did build warships needs to be rewritten? The only thing here is timing. The war started with the IS having no warships, but finally researched and built some. The threat at the time was stopped. With the logic you present, that would mean every battle would have to be rewritten from the original SL onwards. Saying canon needs to have an even and fair war isn't going to happen. If it does, the CC would never have been slammed like it was. The FS would not have had things like the Kentares massacre. Worlds would never have been nuked to death. Or maybe they would all have to be nuked in order for one side to gain an advantage.
Shields only do so much. The magical shield of the arena Is not really based on physics. It is in the game, but yet no stats are given for it, like how much damage can it take before it fails. Even then, it is more out there then the jump drives.
It also goes back to the fact the SL never USED the tech for anything. Not even to protect Kerensky's command ship, his mech, or even the SLDF HQ. Even the palace would have had it up. So either the tech was done after the League fell, which is highly unlikely, or It was never meant to be used, and was only put in to make the arena stand out from the other arenas.
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Requiem
06/18/20 09:28 AM
101.185.79.245
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Quote:
remote control technology
Unfortunately the natural flow of technology within the game has many issues.
The Hi-Scout has one more issue …. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hi-Scout ….. “The vehicle's sensor suite includes infrared, seismic, sound, motion, radio, radar and hyperpulse to detect any unit within 60 kilometers.”
Where is this technology for Mechs, all types of vehicles and even aerospace …. detecting any unit within 60 Kilometers?
There are far to many technological gems written throughout the game that just go no where ….
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there is no real challenge the developers can come up with to challenge the IS
The Clans could have do it with a massive amount of re-organization ….
Dump their entire society – sibko’s, bidding every-thing;
Add in a true academy / boot camp that is open to everyone;
Add in a complement of all omni vehicles - including VTOL, Conventional fighters and bombers etc.;
Add in a dedicated infantry with a more advanced Grey Death Armor (all have jump jets attached with a jump distance of 4);
Provide a dedicated MASH system and logistics system;
Provide them with a couple of true Space Navy fleets – Carrier, battleships, frigates, crusers, destroyers, submarines etc;
At the same time make sure they treat their conquered people with respect and dignity - they provide technical assistance to help the worlds they conquer to have a better life;
Make sure their military is of a massive size;
Rather than invading at a point where you are fighting three IS realms at the same time come in at a point where you are attacking just one at a time. ….. and
…. yes you can give the IS a run for their money ….
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so why waste resources on keeping them?
Kentares Massacre upon multiple worlds? If the game went down this path I would probably burn all my books in disgust ….
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The fact that the IS did build warships needs to be rewritten? The only thing here is timing.
Correct …. Re-building Naval forces for all Houses starts 3040 so that when the Clans arrive within the IS in 3050 – when taking into account the number of ship-yards each House has – each house should have a minimum of a dozen ships each – Thus there is the ability for Naval battles in the game from the get go.
So when the Jaguars fire on Turtle Bay the DC send in three of their ships and slay it. – they can also transmit a message to the Jaguars and all the other Clans a warning as what will happen if they violate the Ares conventions again …..
Thus no nukes and no WMDs for the remainder of the Invasion and a reasonable back story (if written correctly).
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like how much damage can it take before it fails.
It has been in operation (on and off) for how many years? And how many gladiatorial mech’s have been in the arena at one time.
It is not as if all physics within the game is based on fact so adding one more should not really pose an issue …
There are Mech Shiels …. Might as well have upgraded energy shields …. And if they can be placed on Mechs then they can go on any ship as well as Drop, Jump and War ships …. And might as well put them on cities …. Thus making the idea of orbital bombardment irrelevant ….
Then it just comes down to each individual groups GM and their desire to integrate shields into the game … most would probably ditch the idea ….
For a back story the prototype shield could have been manufactured between the end of the Amaris War and that of Kerensky’s Exodus – and was then stashed away until it was found in the distant future … and someone had a limited idea as to what they could do with it … and hence we only got a stadium
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/20 12:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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Better then the portable units infantry deploy. The Pegasus scout tank was supposed to have superior detection with the extra weight it had left over as fractional accounting wasn't used in the 3026 book. The issue is the fluff of a lot of units didn't have any sort of tech to back them up. The command communications in say the Phoenix Hawks for one.
But back to the remote control thing. If you played the story line of HBS BattleTech, you know the unit finds a SL base that has advanced tech. Yet to get in, you fight remote controlled units. How is this possible if there isn't such a thing in the rules? I ask as things in the game become canon. The program for the SDS infects the ships computer and tries to use it as one of the drones, trying to explode the engines (fuel tanks).
The question of how much damage can the shields take before it fails is a question of making it capable of protecting say the palace from an orbital bombardment. The naval weapons do more damage then a few missed shots from a mech combat in the arena. Other questions of how large of an area can be covered, such as the size of a single 'unit' could only be a kilometer at best. Power use and a whole slew of things comes with that.
The biggest issue with the back story suggested is why would you waste it on an arena? Protect an important building or vault or something of that nature. And the idea that it would not have been torn down, or destroyed by sabotage comes to mind as well.
And one more thing about the shield. It is supposed to detonate missiles before it impacts on the shields. This is not something that would be kept limited to a gladiator pit. It does not say anything about detonating bombs, but anything with a warhead would probably work. So the bombs of an aerofighter attack could be negated. At least Capital missiles could be defended against at the least.
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Requiem
06/18/20 07:40 PM
101.185.79.245
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Quote:
advanced tech
Steiner Grid – Again each individual GM will have to determine all the issues for their games.
Though in doing there may be unexpected consequences - the only advice I can give is to conduct a massive amount of beta testing – if the decision is made to bring it into the game.
Just establish a list of the grid’s properties - something along the lines of ….?
Size of Grid – Large Building / Dropship
Power Source – linked to the local power grid / Dropship engine
Protection against -
Missile
A/C
Laser
PPC
Amount of concentrated fire it can take before it shuts down – < > pnts
Time limit – given its size can only operate for a maximum time of 30 minutes before it needs to be shut down for an hour to allow the grid to cool down before it can once again be re-activated for 30 min….
and add a section on the bottom to evaluate the results post game
Remote controlled units – there is a disconnect between what is written in some books, etc. and what is allowed within the game.
The only option is to allow them in via House Rules.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/20 11:25 AM
66.74.60.165
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The thing with the grid is I don't remember seeing anything about the arena in the SL era. It is very possible I just don't have the books that says anything about it. So if it wasn't League tech, then who came up with it and built it?
I don't think there was any sort of duels outside of the Olympic games, and really don't remember seeing Solaris have any promotion about mech fights during the SL. So that brings up a few other questions.
I want to say there is some automated or remote controlled refueling ships at some of the jump points, but the wiki and my system don't seem to want to play nice with each other to actually find out.
There is another point that needs to be made with remote control/robotics. The auto pilot of ships is using this sort of tech. Some things are very simple, such as opening a door without being in physical contact with the ship, to having them plot a course. The navigation computers on jumpships are very famous for that one.
I would also think some of the more sophisticated ship yards still run remote controlled units. The idea came to me earlier this week, so you have some support with the deep space welders argument.
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Requiem
08/01/20 06:42 AM
1.158.133.26
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Not only did the Clans possess a technological edge over that of the Inner Sphere their Mech Warriors possessed an edge over their inner sphere warriors with regards to piloting and gunnery …
3051 – during the lull in the invasion Jamie Wolf called for a conference on Outreach. All the heads of the various Inner Sphere Houses and several mercenary leaders were invited. It was at the start of this conference that Jamie Wolf revealed the true origin of the Dragoons …. There they trained the heirs of each House in the ways of the Clans ….
During the age of the First Hidden War (2650 onwards) DCMS Ronin engaged in one on one duels with their SLDF compatriots …. Resulting in the realization that the Ronin simply had superior training that the warriors of the SLDF.
To rectify the problem the First Lord ordered the establishment of the Advanced Combat and Maneuvering Skills Project (The Gunslinger Program) was established to produce superior duelists to take on the Ronin Warriors ….
Question: Why wasn’t there the establishment of a new Gunslinger program to produce superior duelists to take on the Clan Warriors?
Start with Training Instructors from Wolfs Dragoons …
Then move on to Clan Bondsman taken captive in battle
Did no one remember their History?
And over time this program could have been transferred to every Academy within the IS to specifically train every IS warrior to take on a Clan warrior as an equal.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
08/03/20 09:42 AM
173.247.25.195
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I thought Wolf's Dragoons DID show Inner Sphere tacticians the tactics used by the Clans. At least until the Khans returned from the Grand Council and the invasion resumed, whereupon the Dragoons returned to the front and the training was mostly cut off. They could have continued after Tukayyid, in limited capacity.
Undoubtedly each House took these tactics back home and adapted their premier training academies to train soldiers in these tactics. So each House (at least the three involved in the fighting) would have had a mini-Gunslinger program. Tukayyid ended the invasion before the programs could produce much value, but I bet a lot of the graduates were later transferred to units participating in Bulldog.
As far as a training every IS soldier, now way that happens in 9 year span between Radstadt and Bulldog, but by the Republic and Dark Age timeframes I'm sure every graduate of military academies across the sphere have to take courses on Clan tactics. But keep in mind that Clan Warriors had been doing the same since the early 3000s so they might still have had an edge. As much as the IS warriors could exploit Clan tactics like zellbrigin, the Clans could have adapted to exploit things like their range advantage, massive aerospace superiority, or better utilization of their spheroid counterparts in less critical roles like the Bears and Ravens did.
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ghostrider
08/03/20 01:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Dragoon meeting did teach some on the tactics used by the clans, or at least up until the point that they were sent to the IS. The houses did find some ways to counter the clans, but they were limited to specific locations.
It would have been stupidly foolish for the houses to ignore the information, even with the truce in effect. Until Serpent, the clans were still a future threat, if they even bothered to wait until the end of the truce. The newer recruits probably were the main ones in Bulldog, as the more elite units were sent in Serpent.
There is no way to train every soldier in the IS on new tactics. The main ones you would focus on is the officers, as they are the ones to organize and order those tactics. And the concentration of them would be on or near the front. It is very unlikely a unit stationed on the border of TC space would get the advanced training any time soon.
From the sounds of it, the clan tactics seem to be misunderstood there Wick. The clans did stand back and use the range of their weapons to kill the enemy. The stories just don't show that. In most conditions that allowed it, the range is what help neutralize the numbers advantage the IS had. The more powerful weapons are not to be forgotten on this, but when you can hit a few extra times before the enemy can even fire on you, makes a huge difference.
The clans edge is that they were indoctrined in the tactics from childhood. Fear of death was pretty much taken out of the equation, so the warriors were not so worried about surviving the fight. Where an IS warrior would retreat when damaged so badly, the clan warrior would just continue on with the fight.
Remember about the distaste for physical combat on the clans part. They used their skills at range, not brute force of a fist.
The clan teachings prevented a lot of things like massed aerospace fighters, or using freeborns. The Wolves under Ulric was the closest thing they came to actually trusting IS people. The Bears figured this out and started treating the locals a little better, but didn't go as far.
I can't comment on the Ravens as that is a time frame after I stopped getting the books.
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Requiem
08/03/20 07:22 PM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
Wolf's Dragoons DID show Inner Sphere tacticians the tactics used by the Clans.
And yet another hole in the Clan Invasion …..They might as well not have bothered, pre and post Dragoons Conference on Outreach tactics didn’t change at all ….
IN MY OPINION - TPTB established a campaign that had no real basis in what should have occurred – Hanse Davion was supposed to be the Napoleon of his day, and yet nothing within the Invasion proves that he was in command …..
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So each House (at least the three involved in the fighting) would have had a mini-Gunslinger program.
You would have thought so but no …. No gunslinger program
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I'm sure every graduate of military academies across the sphere have to take courses on Clan tactics.
You would think so but from all the evidence, as written, it appears as if they were given a one day course and that’s that.
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but they were limited to specific locations.
Can I scoff now? ….. finding good land to fight on an entire world’s topography should not be that hard for a commanding officer …. Or don’t the military supply topography maps of the worlds they are assigned to? Or doesn’t every garrison send out recon pilots to take pictures of the land so that they can locate good defensible position from which to fight from anymore ….. when your unit has been the Garrison Unit for how many years on a single world is there no dedicated training ground where you have been conducting training drills / live fire exercises?
No one conduct after action reports (together with gun camera footage) and then disseminate it to their garrisons next in line for invasion so that they can learn from the mistakes of the previous commanding officer?
No new weapon systems specifically designed to anti clan tactics? How hard is it to create a sniper rifle that can penetrate elemental (Toad) armor and kill the operator?
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There is no way to train every soldier in the IS on new tactics.
Can I scoff now? ….. every military, especially infantry, are big on training and re-training and more training followed by more training etc. ……. And for ALL ranks …. And no matter where they have been posted they would receive the same updated training, as this is just standard operating procedure (SOP) for all militaries everywhere ….
By the end of wave 1 and 2 – wave 3 infantry should be ready to fight toads on a one to one basis with Inferno SRM …. and yet nothing …… did no one look at envelopment tactics look at the number of toads compared to that of a single regiment of infantry ……..
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The clans did stand back and use the range of their weapons to kill the enemy.
…… Keep their aerospace fighters busy …with yours …..
….. send in a bomber flight and reduce them to scrap ….
……Whilst using artillery ….. (and remember to use time on target – all rounds from all artillery hit at exactly the same time)
……and then send in VTOL with (hellfire) missiles etc ….
……. Then send in the infantry with HE plastic / inferno rounds to make sure …
When the only weapons the clans have is ‘Mechs, toads and fighters they really do not have the flexibility of an IS commander when it comes to battles ….
Attrition warfare would have obliterated the clans …. They just do not have the numbers or the replacement personnel for a stand up fight the likes of which the IS have been fighting during all of the succession wars !!!!
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but when you can hit a few extra times before the enemy can even fire on you, makes a huge difference.
And yet when you use mass WW2 bombers and payloads on a clan positions their AA range is still not there and as stated previously the amount of conventional aircraft in the IS are in massive numbers ….. so where are they?
As is the issue of range was only a factor when it was Mech to Mech Battles – and why can’t you find terrain to limit that advantage on an entire world to choose from?
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Fear of death was pretty much taken out of the equation
Suggest you read about the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend
Professionalism is what is required, together with trusting your unit members to have your back, together with supporting elements that can be called upon ….
Suggest reading WW2 – fighting in the Hedge Row, Blitzkrieg Tactics as well as Elastic Defense Theory to show how you coordinate all aspects of the military to engage a single target to win …. Something that never appeared on the canon Clan Invasion battlefield ….. so why were the battles so limited in their tactics and equipment available?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/03/20 09:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Find the best spot to fight it out. GO there and stay. I will take the factories that you left in the cities to find your perfect fighting spot. Until you move to where the enemy is at, you will be waiting a long time for nothing. Maybe even starve your troops as the enemy will shut off your supplies.
Yeah. The clans were stupid enough to stand in one spot using their ranged weapons. What garbage. Granted, you could slightly herd them into a position to hit once with art, after that they will refuse to head where you want them too. To keep range from an approaching enemy, you do have to MOVE backwards in order to keep the distance. But then that is simple tactics. Not something that actually works. Get real.
And this is even suggesting you had the forces to do any of this. Not all worlds had artillery, and even units that did, may well have had them placed on the other side of the world or in a location too far from the battle field to do any good. But then every situation has every force on all sides just sitting around, waiting for their turn to fight.
And when the clans mass warships and just bombard everything... See how stupid that looks? The game wasn't about having so many units you needed dropping out your backside. It was making do with what you had. Now if you have every last unit in one Gazelle dropship that houses a full RCT in it, then there is no reality in touch with the game.
Tanks die even faster them mechs do when engaged with clan units, with the exception of the clans not wanting to even acknowledge they are there. As said above, you can not always pick your battlefield. The clans are especially difficult to make fight on your terms. But that is the issue. They DON'T fight as you want them to. Which is why they are the horrible boogieman that jumps out of the shadow to gut your troops without a sound.
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Requiem
08/04/20 12:45 AM
1.158.133.26
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First, Remember what Sun Tzu wrote in the Art of War - know yourself and know your enemy
The Clans do NOT care about factories or utilizing starvation tactics – what they do care about is the circle of equals.
“If you build the circle of equals they will come!”
Not only is it their “raison d’etre” when it comes to fighting it is also a part of their Law.
Second, The Batchall – “The defender also has the right to name the location of the Trial.”
Thus every inner sphere unit, as being the defender, has the right to say where they are going to fight – they have the right to choose a location where the Clans range is limited!
Something post Dragoon Conference every Commander forgot about ….. something I would like to know why as once this is known every IS unit could create a kill box with their sappers and invite them in ….?
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The clans were stupid enough to stand in one spot using their ranged weapons. What garbage.
What is the area affect of an artillery round or a gravity bomb?
Artillery can hit a moving target – and using time on target is not that difficult for a competent artillery battery.
So even if they are moving they are toast from a few thousand tons of TNT killing off a massive area all at once.
Question where is the sensor for incoming artillery / bomber bombardment on my clan Mech dashboard as I seem to have forgotten its location?
Consider your average Clan Warrior - Since when has a Clan Unit retreated when attack seems to the only direction they know? It goes against their martial skill if they retreat – remember they believe they are uber warriors and uber warriors do not retreat in the face of anything!
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Not all worlds had artillery,
But every world has conventional aircraft as well as gravity bombs!
And as the defender gets the right to determine the location they can have their units moved way in advance and hidden from the get go.
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And when the clans mass warships and just bombard everything...
Once on Turtle Bay … the other in Lyran Space that was a threat …. And that’s it!
Start doing this an I reserve the right to nuke every Clan ship and use short rage nukes on clan Drop-ships just landing …. Thus the clans are now in a nuclear war of Armageddon …. Equal to that of the First Succession War …
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Tanks die even faster them mechs do when engaged with clan units
What matters is who is left standing at the end …. Tanks en mass Vs clans + hovercraft etc and they will fall …. Especially if you use Naval tactics and cross the T
They may stop many but they won’t get all – attrition warfare on steroids!
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As said above, you can not always pick your battlefield.
The Batchall says otherwise … something every unit should have known post Dragoon Conference!
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They DON'T fight as you want them to. Which is why they are the horrible boogieman that jumps out of the shadow to gut your troops without a sound.
Superior reconnaissance, establishing traps in advance and limiting their movement by picking good ground says otherwise!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/04/20 03:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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The clans do not care about the circle of equals, but to pass on their genetic legacy. Granted, that normally requires a blood name, but not all get it from being a bloodnamed warrior. The circle tends to be a tool to gain the ultimate goal.
Have you forgotten the clans, especially Jade Falcon refused to give a batchall, or accept one? I do agree that units would be more enlightened after the Dragoon summit, but doubt the IS would issue the challenge. Without the clans doing so, the battle becomes more of fighting the dark caste, which is what a lot of the clanners thought the IS was. The clans normally didn't wait for the defenders to return any information on a challenge, but instead just attacked what was near and went from there.
So yes. This was a major parting of their supposed ways. It was basically this point that showed the clans were all honor talk, but would do what ever in order to win. It wasn't like the other clans would believe the IS, if they even had a chance to say anything, about how the invasion clans really did things.
In the game the blasts is a single hex for full strength, and drops off at 2 hexes. The clans had and did use artillery, so they knew more about it then you think. Time on target is great, if the enemy does what you want them to do. Any sort of fast random movement throws the entire barrage out the window. And the distance has a lot to do with it. Even 2 rounds is enough to miss. As the game only uses 20 points max for an artillery strike from a single tube, it is not the end all like it should be.
And clans do retreat to throw off the enemies traps and such. The may not run a kilometer a way, 100 or 200 meters should suffice. It is more of backing up some, then a retreat as most think of it.
They are bred for war, but that does not mean lacking in anything but frontal assaults. They don't normally engage in physical combat, which would occur if they go point blank.
There are more then a few worlds that didn't have dedicated bombers. A few, had things like ultralights for scouting, but not for dropping bombs. And remember that the game does not allow aircraft to fly so high that weapons can not hit the craft. The exception being a range of 3 or less that can't hit. So your bombers are not a free strike.
The warship statement was meant to show how much bs the idea of massing bombers in the game really is. World do not have thousands of combat craft just sitting around waiting for the enemy to attack. Most are scrambling just to get something up in defense. Saying you will use massed bombers is just as wrong as saying the warhips will come enmasse and destroy the worlds that fight back.
I will say it again, and hopefully it sinks in. The clans DID NOT issue challenges like you wanted them to. There was no determining the fighting area, as the batchall was not given. And the IS giving them, gives up the defenders choice of fighting area. So without the clans challenge, the idea of picking where to fight them becomes very limited.
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Requiem
08/04/20 07:34 AM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
The clans do not care about the circle of equals
I Strongly Disagree, It is part of the Rules Nicholas established for the Clans …. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Batchall
If they expect the IS to play by their rules, then they must pay up when they lose the bet ….
Even the Jaguars had to obey – Wolcott – the Mistweavers were defeated and they had to hand over 4 Omnis and two dozen Elementals;
And again when every Clan within the IS had to obey - Tukayyid – they were defeated on a planet chosen by Focht and they had to give up 15 years as equal value;
I would now like to ask – what is a world and all its people on it worth – as stated above if the defenders win then “The defender is also able to ASK FOR A PRIZE OF EQUAL VALUE that the attacker must surrender should they prove victorious”
So in reality with Wolcott the Jaguars got off easy - Of equal value = a world or something equal to a world = A world they have already taken or something else ?
This is again is something that every IS commander should have known post Dragoon Conference – in all reality they could have asked for multiple Clusters to a Galaxy per world if they lost to the IS …. (so again can I ask how this little mishap was ignored? - So again, another black hole that proves the Invasion was rigged from the start! Not impressed!!!+)
As these are the rules they must be held to …. or can I suggest a Alt Universe rewrite ….. ?
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Have you forgotten the clans, especially Jade Falcon refused to give a batchall, or accept one?
Have you forgotten when that was? … so everything before that point in time was part of the bidding process, and remember they are just one clan of many!
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The clans had and did use artillery.
And when was the first time anyone within the IS saw a Clan Arrow IV system? Way past Tukayyid - As they don’t have any other artillery ….
And they don’t have bombers ….
Quote:
As the game only uses 20 points max for an artillery strike from a single tube, it is not the end all like it should be.
Question: What happed to the 1st NAIS during the F C Civil War for the final battle on New Valon, when attacking Avalon City when they came under the guns of the 299th Division? I believe the quote was they were ‘decimated’
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There are more then a few worlds that didn't have dedicated bombers.
And no one brought them in specifically for the job? …. Again showing a major limitation of the Clan Invasion War …. They are perfect for obliterating their ground forces ….
Though for some enlightened commanders there were permanently attached. For Example – 1201st New Avalon Bomber Wing - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Davion_Assault_Guards
Dedicated wings are attached to units!
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World do not have thousands of combat craft just sitting around waiting for the enemy to attack.
Been through this before, and yes there are thousands of conventional aircraft just sitting around ….. so how about go out and collecting and ship them to the front lines ….. conscription ?
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I will say it again, and hopefully it sinks in. The clans DID NOT issue challenges like you wanted them to. There was no determining the fighting area, as the batchall was not given.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
“often the first the defenders knew they were under attack was when the Clan forces issued their batchall.”
“ Rasalhague - internal strife within the Ghost Bear leadership delayed the bidding until 4 July ….”
“The Battle of Wolcott”
‘The First Circuit decided that the Com Guards would challenge the invading Clans to a Trial of Possession on a proxy world over Terra.”
“The Great Refusal was a Trial of Refusal in which the reborn Star League ended the Clan Invasion. …. thus ending the invasion in accordance with Clan law.”
ALL examples of using Clan law – the same as the batchall ……
So yes they did ….. and yes the IS CAN choose where to fight … as well as the right to prizes if they win !!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/04/20 02:19 PM
66.74.60.165
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You do understand that the clans could send a new batchall after a while to attack Wolcott again? So never attacking it was a major victory to the DC.
But the circle of equals did not have much to do with the clan invasion as there was no information on how to deal with it. The clans knew this, and didn't bother to inform the IS of anything. It started turning out to be victory at all costs, and honor be put aside for that cause. The reports sent back to the home worlds was inaccurate at best, out right lies at worse. But I can see where the circle and honor aren't one and the same.
The circle was used to attack someone you didn't like. It wasn't so much honor, but just an outlet for momentary rage fits. They would agree to it if others were around to witness it. Otherwise, they would murder each other from time to time. Most of the time, it was not reported. One example would be Aidan killing the one trueborn when he was posing as a freeborn.
Some in the other clans did not issue batchalls either. And when they did, they knew the enemy had no clue on it, so where is the honor in it? They knew nothing would be asked if the defender won. And there wasn't much batchalls sent out after the Dragoon meeting, as it meant the attacker would have to allow the defender the ability to demand something in return. That would impinge on their honor, as it suggested the IS believed the clan superiority was in question.
As said a few times before. An alt is not an issue. It is using the alt to suggest the canon should have went that way, and that the alt is the ONLY way it could happen.
It was not printed in novels. but under the Naga mech, it states that the warriors of some clans left the Naga's to fight IS units on their own. They purposefully did so. So that 'fact' is invalid.
And I want to say one of the vehicles the clans did use was tube artillery. Just too busy to look it up at the moment.
The Falcon Guard had dealt with a few other units about advancing, as the others were saying they needed the little artillery left on Tukyidd.
Misinformation there. SOME units had dedicated wings and such. More then not, they were stuck with what ever was available at the time. And even the dedicated wings were reassigned to other units from time to time. Most worlds were pushing for just mechs and ground vehicles to protect their world. Aircraft that was pure military was pretty well ignored. RCTs were supposed to have aerofighters. Atmospheric fighters was odd at the best. Vtols were more likely as they could be used to transport supplies and soldiers if not used for combat. Which is probably why jeeps still exist in the front lines.
The issue with moving units is the fact the developers never really got into what was moved. The fact the DC border units were sent to the clan line, yet some how never arrived comes to mind. I do believe they realized the clans would not be able to advance if they had more enemy units on the border, so they 'forgot' about it. The few they did mention, seemed to be killed quickly.
One more thing that needs to be pointed out, is there is no information on just what the clans had for supplies normally. Did they have a trinary of mechs in storage for quick reinforcements on their trips? They despise waste, yet a few of their practices suggests that isn't the case.
The PGCs would never have any mechs if they didn't have a large back up, as the clans were combat driven so would get into a fight over a lot of things. The flow of units would need to be larger then just ordering some when you lost them. This does not keep your frontline units up to par.
There was no declaration of a trial of refusal for the IS invading the Smoke Jaguars. They only hit the Jaguars hoping the clans would see it as just taking down the Jaguars. Otherwise, the invasion of Huntress would not have been a surprise.
The idea that Ulric gave up the right to choose the location of the fight for the truce would be where the crusaders had some legal grounds for accusing Ulric of betraying the clans. It wasn't unknown for a defender to forego that honor, but had the clans choosen it, then the truce probably wouldn't have happened. So storyline is why they did. I don't see any other way, but massive losses on both sides ending the invasion. And as the future saw, it did not really end it. Just changed it to individual clans making pushes into weakened areas.
Also with learning of the attack when the clans issued their challenge, the clans were already starting to invade. They did not give the defenders time to figure out anything. Which in itself tells you the bs of the jump flare warnings as well as how good the radar/sensor set up worked. Yes, the clans had ECM, yet that didn't help them against WOB and the SDS. So rule hole to make the story sound more plausible.
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Requiem
08/04/20 07:56 PM
1.158.133.26
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You do understand that the clans could send a new batchall after a while to attack Wolcott again
Batchall – so therefore the IS DO receive their choice of terrain and if they win compensation from the clans to the equal value of what they are fighting for?
Second – https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion - “The victory netted the Draconis Combine valuable examples of Clan technology and a guarantee that WOLCOTT WOULD NOT BE ATTACKED AGAIN BY THE SMOKE JAGUARS, allowing it to serve as a base of resistance within their Occupation Zone.”
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the circle of equals did not have much to do with the clan invasion as there was no information on how to deal with it
Post Dragoon Conference the IS forces have the right to use Clan traditions and Law against them – thus again showing how TPTB manipulated the Invasion in favor of the Clans – AGAIN demonstrating the need for a massive rewrite of the Clan Invasion as the canon version (in my opinion) is A PHONY WAR, from beginning to end, thus making every other historical event after this phony by extension to the Clan Invasion ……
Suggest everyone start reading The Saga of Tanya the Evil as to how far you can go when bending the rules of war, and in addition, as to how to write a war story !!!!
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Otherwise, they would murder each other from time to time.
Actually there were major fatalities when it came to a circle of equals ….
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Some in the other clans did not issue batchalls either.
As from when and which ones ….. as proven above all the clans were bound by Clan Law at the time of the Great Refusal following the destruction of the Jaguars on Huntress!
Thus this statement can only be considered post this time period … However, were is it written that a specific clan gave up on the rules of Kerensky, and their Honor, from this point going forward by denying the batchall ……?
And how would the other Clans react to this move as they are very political in nature?
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As said a few times before. An alt is not an issue. It is using the alt to suggest the canon should have went that way, and that the alt is the ONLY way it could happen.
My Alt. is a closer version to the truth when considering Logistics tyranny of distance / sibko than that of the canon phony war version ….
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Naga
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naga_(OmniMech)
“By end of 3085, the Naga would ceased being produced in Clan Space. Not a popular design among remaining Clan Space based Clans, its production facilities would repurposed…”
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And I want to say one of the vehicles the clans did use was tube artillery.
How many vehicles were seen in the IS during the Clan Invasion ? …… Not a one!
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Misinformation there. SOME units had dedicated wings and such. More then not, they were stuck with what ever was available at the time.
During the “year of peace” which should be renamed “the year of preparedness” ….. wouldn’t every unit assigned to a front line roll be assigned with a TO&E that would maximize their ability to counter the next Clan invasion wave? Any sane General would believe this would be the case … The Dragoons told them how to gain the advantage of a good battlefield as well as how to demand reparations if they loose (to the equal value of what they are attempting to win) the battle.
All that is required next is the correct TO&E as well as multiple units per world – attrition warfare – they have a year and they have the forces as per the 20 year update …. Again more proof of a phony canon war!!!
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there is no information on just what the clans had for supplies normally.
And yet the logistical tyranny of distance remains – and in any normal war story a force sent to find these fleets and destroy / capture them !!!! …. Again more proof of a phony canon war
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The PGCs
Please read Jade Falcons Touman – their PGCs were comparable to 2 IS Battalions in size …. Thus their ability to garrison anything was next to nil when it comes to freeing up front line forces to continue the next wave.
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There was no declaration of a trial of refusal for the IS invading the Smoke Jaguars.
Politically the Jaguars enemies within the Clans touted it as a Trial of Annihilation and that they were on their own. Again an example of using Clan rules against them …..
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The idea that Ulric gave up the right to choose the location of the fight for the truce would be where the crusaders had some legal grounds for accusing Ulric of betraying the clans.
The Refusal War had nothing to do with the choice in land – it had everything to do with the time of 15 years.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/05/20 01:39 AM)
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ghostrider
08/05/20 12:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Might need to reread your statements. The statement of the Batchall for Wolcott was in response to you saying that the DC should have gotten something better in return to their win. IE you suggested they should have asked for other planets.
The clans were already slipping away from the honor road even before they invaded the IS. No comprehensive reading was needed. Just follow the story line. More and more warriors including khans were about the win, and not the conduct to get it. And where there is a few things that are missing from the clan invasion, it was set up so the attacker, like in most wars, had an advantage at first. Once they lost the surprise factor, the numbers started showing.
There is a difference between murder and the outcome of a circle of equals. The circle is one that both sides know the other is going to try. Normal murder it just killing someone without any warning. One, you know is coming and can guard against it, while the other is more of a surprise attack. Now this is for the warriors. Warrior verse civilian would be murder in almost any regard.
Reread the Jade Falcon history in the invasion. They specifically avoided the Batchall, and when they were challenged, avoided negotiating anything.
Even a few officers from other clans didn't issue the challenge, though their khans changed that. The Falcon khans initiated the lack of challenge and supported not using it. The other clans didn't do much but lip service, as it was not their place to interfer with internal clan politics, though it did violate the challenge protocols.
The end of the Naga has nothing to do with the fact that the clans used artillery during the invasion.
There were vehicles used during the invasion. Just nothing specific on what or when. The artillery spotter would be a good example. They were meant to stay hidden, so they could do their job. Granted, the mechs and elementals got all the notice.
Now you are back on everything is made instantly, and that you destroy your defenses elsewhere to ship units aboard ships that don't exist, in order to expand your front line units.
I do agree they should have had more written on this very issue, but didn't. And as the game focuses on mechs, they went that route. Yet those units didn't seem to reach the front lines.
And still missing the point. The good ground concept only comes when the clans offer the Batchall. If they don't, you don't get the right to bid for where the fight will take place. You defend where they attack. Most IS units choose cities and such. The clans were smart enough to know traps, and would counter them before marching into a full battle. Even just artillery barrages to remove Vibromines and such.
Again, you missed the context of the statement. The PGCs would never have mechs if the clans did not have a ready supply of replacement mechs. They would take anything from lesser units until better ones arrived from the home worlds. Even the second line mechs, as they were better then not having one at all.
The invasion to destroy the Jaguars was never declared when it started. So it was more of a sustained undeclare assault on the Jaguars, but then the invasion was the same thing to the IS. The issue is the IS did not declare it as a refusal trial. It was the other clans until the meeting at Strana Mechity. So no. It was not using the clans traditions against them so much as declaring what it was after the win.
The truce fight had everything to do with land. Not sure why you think that was the refusal war being discussed, as Ulric was not part of the destruction of the Jaguars.
Had Focht not had the ability to choose where to fight, the comguards would not have prevailed. The CIC on Tukiyyid was a main factor of winning against the clans. There was not secret landings, disrupted coms or anything else like that during the fight. Traps and terrain were set up for the defense. Without this, the guards would probably have been completely destroyed and in almost any case, just lose.
So that response seemed to be another example of not reading what is actually there.
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Requiem
08/05/20 06:35 PM
1.158.133.26
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IE you suggested they should have asked for other planets.
Yes,
Question: what is this world worth …. What is its comparable equal value …. If bartering for planets, what would you offer for this one?
This is Clan Law …. You lose you must pay to that of equal value ….
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The clans were already slipping away from the honor road even before they invaded the IS.
Irrelevant - slipping is not breaking – It is clearly shown that there is consistency from day 1 of the Invasion that they issued batchalls, to that of the Great Refusal (e.g. Wolcott) that they upheld their own rules …… even the most ultra Warrior like Clan held to rules (the Smoke Jaguars) – upon their loss they provided the DC with Omni Mechs and Elemental suits …
And as such as the rules have been clearly shown to be upheld, therefore ALL of their rules are enforceable! – choosing the arena for engagements is held by the defender is enforceable – the right to request damages in the event the attacker looses to that of equal value of what the challenge represents is enforceable …..
Any time this was not implemented post “year of peace” – post Dragoon Conference – proves that the invasion is little more than a farcical invasion, with a predetermined ending …
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it was set up so the attacker, like in most wars, had an advantage at first. Once they lost the surprise factor, the numbers started showing.
Go back and re-read individual battles – if numbers were starting to show then there should have been three to five RCTs on every world the Clans Invaded post year of peace? And as such the entire structure of the war should have shifted from dueling to attrition?
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Warrior verse civilian would be murder in almost any regard.
Really? If a warrior kills a civilian wouldn’t it be listed as either accident / suicide?
A isn’t this the idea of clan justice?
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Reread the Jade Falcon history in the invasion. They specifically avoided the Batchall, and when they were challenged, avoided negotiating anything.
Then what happed with Marthe Pryde on Conventry and when Victor offered then Hegira?
They also participated in the Great Refusal … and were bound by the rules of the refusal.
So again use specifics of when this started and provide proof – Book / page no / sarna web site …..
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the clans used artillery during the invasion.
The first time the Naga reached the Battlefield was Tukayyid when the ComGuard retreated towards Skupo under artillery cover …..
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There were vehicles used during the invasion.
And yet there is no evidence of them whatsoever in the Clans Toumans ….and no clansman warrior in any of their units would be assigned to such an ignoble vehicle during the invasion …. again provide proof to back up the statement Book / page number / sarna web page …
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The good ground concept only comes when the clans offer the Batchall. If they don't, you don't get the right to bid for where the fight will take place.
Can I laugh now? …. The entire clans fighting style is based upon the premise that wherever the defending forces are, that is where they will go. They have no interest whatsoever as to capturing cities / factories etc. Their only interest is to prove their martial superiority – thus no matter where you place your defending forces this is where they are going to attack!
Horse Jade Falcon – “Proof lies only in victory. That is the way of the Clans”
The Batchall doesn’t really matter … it is just a means of formulizing the battle in order to receive restitution when the Clan forces lose.
Set your defending forces anywhere on any world within the invasion route and they will attack it …..
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The PGCs would never have mechs if the clans did not have a ready supply of replacement mechs.
Aiden Pryde and Horse – as a freeborn warriors ….. what were they assigned?
And again 2 Battalions of PGCs personnel cannot garrison very many worlds in revolt ….. the whole idea of the PGCs is a huge joke!
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They would take anything from lesser units
Question: what units are below PGCs? – as even Solhama are above them?
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It was not using the clans traditions against them so much as declaring what it was after the win.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lincoln_Osis
What happed to Lincoln Osis when he solicited aid from the other Clans during Operation Surpent / Bulldog?
The Grand Council decided that the Jaguars should be left to their own devices – it was a Trial of Annihilation by the IS against the Smoke Jaguars …
Tradition Stands!!!!!
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Ulrik Kerensky
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ulric_Kerensky
What was the indictment charges against Ulric?
First, Colluding with ComStar in the battle of Tukayyid;
Second, The elevation of an agent of the Inner Sphere (namely Phelan Wolf) to the position of Khan; and
Third, Genocide – engaging in an attempt to destroy Clan Wolf’s genetic legacy by preventing three generations (15 years) of Wolf warriors from seeing serious combat.
Please explain how previous battlefields during every battle post year of peace had anything to do with the charges stipulated?
As per Clan Traditions ComStar were the defenders in the battle and they have the right to determine the battlefield!
Did you hear any Clan Khan and sa-Khan complaining about the terrain / world prior to the battle on Tukayyid?
It is a very poor warrior who starts berating the terrain on which they fought when they lose the war! Only a petulant child!
And by the way wasn’t the first two charges dismissed?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/05/20 09:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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So bidding that the clans will not attack the world again isn't enough? Why does this sound like changing the horses in the middle of the stream?
And with this, most star colonels don't have the authority to accept a bid like that. If not for the arrogance of the clans, they would have not even attempted to make the bid for not attacking again.
So this is a case of someone overreaching their authority to even agree to it.
What game are you talking about? Day 1 of the invasion had Batchalls issued for all fights? That is a complete lie, as the Falcons did not meet such standards. I will skip the fact that not a single batchall was issued in the periphery. So logic has fallen into the black hole of not understanding, or comprehending what is actually written in the game.
Wow. The idea that the IS had hundreds of thousands of RCTs strikes again. And the fact that you would strip every world of any defense in order to even try shows thru.
Maybe the lack of understanding that in large groups, the clans were even more formidable then they were in smaller units. Facing a galaxy is harder then facing a binary. Granted, there is something off with having all the RCT there fighting, which seems to have been lost in some of the canon fights. But no matter what you think, a full RCT will not fit on a single map in the game.
Might need to forget about supply lines and actually understand full strategy and tactics. With what is kept being suggested, there would be nothing left to worry about where supplies comes from because there would be nothing left.
Killing a civilian would still be murder, though the trueborn would not be prosecuted for it. The other way around would have the civilian strung up for doing so.
Do you actually read the stories? Marthe did NOT offer a challenge, and the fact that Victor offered her a way out that did not involve getting massive amounts of soldiers killed did not change this fact. And if I recall right, it was Adam that came up with the agreement there.
When did the Falcons get involved in the extinction of the Jaguars? Other then the unit that was on Huntress when the attack started? They did NOT participate in the refusal fight to defend the clans right to invade.
There were defending forces on quite a few worlds, yet Marthe went for Coventry. Why? Because she knew the LC/LA would send more forces there. The Falcons could have hit far more worlds with troops on them. And the fact that the clans, including the Falcons did indeed take lands without wiping everything out had happened. They left the remains of units for the PGC and second line to deal with. This is completely counter to what you just stated.
What does the PGC size and ability to hold a world, have to do with the clans would have taken every last mech from them if they did not have reserves?
Go reread the batchall issued by FOCHT. NOT Ulric. Focht was the one that issued the challenge. SO it was Ulric that should have decided when and where the fight would take place. Might need to get your facts straight, as more then a few things have been falsely stated here.
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Requiem
08/06/20 07:36 AM
1.158.133.26
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So bidding that the clans will not attack the world again isn't enough?
No, it is not.
You, need to make a request that will decrease their potential for future combat operations.
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most star colonels don't have the authority to accept a bid like that.
Agency Theory would say otherwise.
The Rules regarding a Batchall have been engrained in them sine the time they were in a sibko.
They have been sent out with clear orders.
They initiated the Batchall ritual.
The defensive IS forces replied correctly – demanding their right of Battlefied (to which they are already located) – and by the right of the Batchall they can demand something of equal value to the world, the people and the industries on the world they are attempting to conquer.
By all rights if they can issue the Batchall then they must also be able to agree to all the terms as stipulated by the IS defenders.
Or do the Clans have such pitiful commanding officers that they cannot even obey their own customs?
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What game are you talking about? Day 1 of the invasion had Batchalls issued for all fights?
All evidence to the contrary - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
“often the first the defenders knew they were under attack was when the Clan forces issued their batchall.”
Stated PROOF- FACT they issued the Batchall …. Where is the proof otherwise - Book / Page Number / Sarna Wiki Page?
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The idea that the IS had hundreds of thousands of RCTs strikes again.
The twenty year update, however, indicated the following ‘Mech Regiments for each house…
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Duchy of Andurien 6 Regiments
Magistracy of Canopus 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Total D of A / M of C 18 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Taurian 14 Regiments
Alliance 3 Regiments
Other Periphery 10 Regiments
Comstar 50 + Regiments
The Clans however consisted of:-
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters; 2 warships; 82 jumpships; 242 dropships
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries) 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries) 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries) 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
Assume Three Clusters to a Galaxy and for wolf / Falcon Four Trinaries to a Cluster
Wolf – 4 Galaxies
Falcon – 5 Galaxies
Bears – 4 Galaxies
Jaguars – 3 Galaxies
Vipers – 2 Galxies
Cats – 3 Galaxies Total 21 Galxies
At 210 RCTs made up of FC, DC FRR that’s 10 RCTs per Galaxy Made up of just FC, DC FRR
Jade Falcon – 15 Worlds
Ghost Bear – 15 worlds
Nova Cat – 10 worlds
Smoke Jaguar – 10 worlds
Steel Viper – 5 worlds
Wolf – 15 worlds ………….Total 70 worlds that can be created into multiple defensive lines …
So yes, as proven many times before, the IS does have the forces and yes they can move their forces to engage the Clans – they have a whole year during the “year of peace” and when you look at the amount of forces utilized during the 4th Succession War then considering the civil engineering ability of every house they can most definitely fortify every world in front of the clans current position - Thus demonstrating that they can definitely achieve a WW2 Italy defensive line
and if you assume the CC were annihilated during the war of 3039 add them in;
and if ComStars perfidy has been proven by this stage add in Comstar’s Com-Guard;
And if during the Dragoons Conference the Star League is reborn add in the entire IS;
So, How can anyone say it can’t be done ? They can’t !!!
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Do you actually read the stories? Marthe did NOT offer a challenge, and the fact that Victor offered her a way out that did not involve getting massive amounts of soldiers killed did not change this fact.
And yet a Batchall occurred Whitting, Coventry, Coventry Province, Lyran Alliance, 16 June 3058 ….
Malicious Intent, by Michael A. Stockpole
Page 262 – Victor Ian Steiner-Davion informed Khan Marthe Pryde he invoked the right of Safcon, and she granted it …;
Page 280 - 282 - Khan Marthe Pryde, “It is time for the bidding to be done … we bid all we have to defend the planet
and in response ….”….I, Caradoc Trevena, commander of the Titans, conqueror of Whitting, offer you, hegira ….”
As for Adam was not even on the planet at the time …. 3064 Melissia ?
As far as Marthe was concerned Coverntry was just a training exercise to sharpen her talons ….
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They did NOT participate in the refusal fight to defend the clans right to invade.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Great_Refusal
2.5 Clan Jade Falcon Versus ComStar
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They left the remains of units for the PGC and second line to deal with. This is completely counter to what you just stated.
And yet more problems with the writing of the Clan Invasion …
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Go reread the batchall issued by FOCHT. NOT Ulric. Focht was the one that issued the challenge. SO it was Ulric that should have decided when and where the fight would take place.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ulric_Kerensky
April 5 3052 - Focht proposed a Trial of Possession by proxy for Terra, to be fought on the Rasalhague world of Tukayyid between the twelve armies of Focht's Com Guards and the invading Clans …. After extensive negotiating, the IlKhan and the Precentor Martial reached terms that both could accept. If the Clans were victorious, ComStar would surrender Terra and place itself under the Clans' control. If ComStar won, the Clans would abide by a fifteen year truce, vowing not to advance any further towards Terra then Tukayyid.
And yet is was agreed to as the Clans (as the aggressor / attacker) plans were to attack Terra (ComStar / ComGuard as the defender) – Tukayyid was therefore to be proxy battle to ensure no battlefield damage would occur to Terra ….
ComStar gets to determine the location as well as the price for a clan defeat – 15 years.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/20 12:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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So by winning the promise that they will not attack that world again, isn't decreasing future hostilities? Logic has died here.
Ok. So you are saying Marthe did NOT issue a batchall when she attacked, but Victor used the clan traditions to deal with her.. Hmmm. So the initial attacker did not follow their own clans customs to challenge for any of the worlds they hit. They just attacked. Sounds like the ultra traditional Falcons did in fact NOT follow traditions with this.
The numbers provide say you do not understand warfare and having to protect other places besides where a conflict is happening. Yet in the other thread, you said that you would have to guard other areas. Sending all of your forces to the clan line means you have nothing to counter any issues that would come about when you pulled all of your forces from other places. And even with the increase in ship production, you would still not have enough to move a large chunk of the forces.
Despite what it seems you believe, every unit did not have it's own transportation department to move them when needed. This is why a lot of units died in the wars. They had no way off worlds.
Focht proposed a Trial of Possession by proxy for Terra
That statement is all that is needed. Focht made the bid. The clans were the defender in this bid. Doesn't matter if the clans were standing on Terra. Focht was the one to give the challenge.
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ghostrider
08/06/20 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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Whereas it was considered normal for the attacker to announce their presence with the batchall many Jade Falcon commanders dispensed with the tradition, citing the uncivilized nature of their enemies as reason enough to breach this rule of Clan etiquette.
Under Invasion Corridor - Jade Falcon.
It seems your reading has skipped over a lot of information.
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Requiem
08/06/20 10:38 PM
1.158.133.26
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Warning: The following contents represents many of my personal opinions on the underling errors regarding the Clan Invasion.
Quote:
So by winning the promise that they will not attack that world again, isn't decreasing future hostilities? Logic has died here.
How does shifting the invasion corridor to new worlds assist the long term defeat of the Clans. They will either jump over the world or move around it – spreading their invasion to new worlds.
What is ultimately required is their expulsion from the Inner Sphere and this would ultimately require the destruction of their military capability to wage war.
First, the destruction of their military;
Second, the destruction of their industries to manufacture war; and
Third, the destruction of their culture – that part of their culture that demands they wage war – the idea that they are supermen and as such have the right to rule based upon the premise they have the best military – a might makes right attitude.
This shows a complete lack of understanding as to the Clan Invasion – a failure to understand as to what does it mean to be when one society imposes their system upon another and the repercussions of said imposition?
With the Invasion the Inner Sphere, by the Clans, it is now in a war to death over ideology of what freedom means and represents – what government structure will rule the human race … the libertine government of democracy / neo-classical government of the Great Houses that allows it’s people many freedoms as to who and what they want to be or the Clan’s autocratic / fascist / tyranny minority-warrior-rule system based upon the DNA supremacy of individuals who believe they are super-human who impose a destiny upon their people and remove all freedoms as to speech, thought, self determination, travel etc etc.
This is what the Star League is ultimately fighting against – not the physical representation but what they represent ideologically - and if the leaders of the Inner Sphere cannot understand this then there is something seriously wrong with their understanding as to the Clan invasion’s objectives …. The invasion is NOT ultimately over territory, it IS about the future of human rights – which system will be imposed upon the other !!!!
This is why the IS Star League Mk. 2 will not dissolve and why attacking just one Clan is completely irresponsible – this is war to death until one realm falls – either the IS falls or Clan space / Kerensky Space falls – conquered by the other!
Thus the entire space in-between the two realms will become a battlefield until one side will impose their system upon the other. This is why the current version of the story completely lacks comprehension as to what the war truly represents.
Re-write Please – the will of the people should not be subjugated / shackled to that of a false ideology that does not understand the human spirits’ desire to be free.
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Sounds like the ultra traditional Falcons did in fact NOT follow traditions with this.
What this shows is that Khan Marthe followed Clan traditions on multiple occasions … and as she DID follow these traditions this demonstrates that the Falcons as a whole ARE still following ALL clan traditions at this stage!
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The numbers provide say you do not understand warfare and having to protect other places besides where a conflict is happening.
Really ????
Go back and look at the numbers and the situation again …
DC, FRR and DC have entered into a mutual defense agreement against the Clans …
The CC are dead
Thus only the FWL and the Periphery states remain – the FC has committed only 125 – 150 Regiments out of their total amount of 300 Regiments – the DC gave committed 60-70 out of their 100 regiments and the FRR have committed everything they have remaining to the “Gothic Line”. <and then if the Com Guard are added add more forces … and if the FWL are added even more forces.>
Second Army, a percentage of the remaining forces of the DC forces and a second FC army are dispatched to attack internal Clan held worlds to disrupt / destroy logistics …
And Third Army is sent into the Deep Periphery to disrupt Clan logistics fleets / worlds they are using as forward bases of operations.
There is more than enough forces of all of these operations … and for guarding key areas – if push comes to shove this is why you have reserve / home guard.
Remember a war with the Clans is a TOTAL WAR SCENARIO.
Either the IS come together as one Star League and One SLDF or you die separately there is no other choice!
And in reality this is the ONLY way moving forward post year of peace <Unless you want to start a First Succession War with the Clans.>
Massive rewrite required !!!!!
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Despite what it seems you believe, every unit did not have it's own transportation department to move them when needed.
This is why
First, during the year of pace you get all your forces into a position; then
Secondly, you to take all the transport you need from the Clans.
Can anyone explain why, given the figures supplied, not one of the houses when against the Clan’s Jump-ships – as shown in the 4th Succession War the Lyrans orphan program worked !!!! So why not against the Clans ?
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Focht made the bid.
Dictionary Definition – Proxy – the authority to represent something else !!!
What happens if the Clans arrive at Terra and Com-Star and the Com-Guard are still on the planet - are the Clans ….
a. The defenders
b. Tourists requesting a Visa
c. The attackers
d. Lost and looking for directions
Thus is Focht in a position of
a. Receiving the bid
b. Providing a visa
c. Declaring a bid
d. Providing directions
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many Jade Falcon commanders dispensed with the tradition, citing the uncivilized nature of their enemies as reason enough to breach this rule of Clan etiquette.
Many does not in any way mean all ….. many is a highly subjective term and is open to interpretation as to a quantifiable figure… so when does a quantity of a large number of people become ‘many’ as compared to the total number of people who initiate a Batchall
Ie. if 100 people are allowed to initiate a Batchall what is the figure when many applies? Two, ten ,fifty ….. each person will have a subjective nature as to when this kicks in ….? So when that becomes a quantifiable figure – let me know., until then I am going to keep it on the low side …
First it is just the Falcons not all off the Clans …..
Second if you position for your forces in an anti clan kill box from the start will they a.) attack; or b.) just sit outside and cry foul like a petulant child demanding you come out and attack them?
If you build a kill box the Clans will come …. That is unless they have no longer capable to fight ….
It is too engrained in their DNA not to attack.
So again the point in mute – and also how does this lack of tradition look to those who do hold to tradition and to the other Clans at this stage?
However once an attrition warfare program is adopted the clans idea of war as well as their psychological view of war is about to shift from nice clean dues, with nice clean rules, surgical strikes within a prearranged circle of equals ….. into the absolute horror of war that is more akin to WW1 trench warfare where you are in the mud and death and terror of bombardments etc. ….. does anyone realize that the Clan psyche is not geared / hard wired for this type of warfare whereas the IS units have been engaged in this type of warfare since the start of the First Succession War … also the Clans in no way have the support Corps that the IS have …. Any protracted long standing drawn out attrition battle favors the IS and not the Clans … they cannot fight a protracted war … they just do not have the ability to conduct a single war on a single world over an extended period of time as the only support they have is limited to their Dropships!
Thus if they move more than 50Km from their drop-ships they become vulnerable to logistical resupply? Who is going to take the resupply out to them and on what vehicles?
Sorry but the Clan invasion as written has too many holes in it to be considered ‘a factual series events’ of any army unit invading another realm 6months distant from their home bases.
Re-write please!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/20 11:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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Having a secured base where you can hit the enemy in the rear and not be hit back does nothing to stop further attacks? Did I miss tactics 101 here?
The issue with this was the lack of resources to actually do anything significant with it.
The fight to the death over ideology was started when the SL died. It was still going on when the clans invaded. The intensity had diminished, but in the end, only one ideology could come out dominant. Even when two were close, one would eventually have to bow to the other. The statement in Transformers... Until all are one.
Again, the use of the alt to justify saying the canon version is wrong doesn't work. I could say the SDF 1 popped into the IS and started removing Comstar from Terra, then worked outwards. Does this mean that canon is wrong as they could do very little to stop it? It just does not work.
What happens in the future does not change the fact that Focht made the bid. It might be to stop Terra from suffering, but he was the one to challenge for possession of Terra. Had the clans reached Terra and challenged, then Focht would have been the defender.
The example you give is the very one someone that will use nukes would say to justify their use. You were going to attack my world, so I stopped it now. And this is not apples and oranges. It is the VERY base of people justifying bad mistakes.
The statement made by you said that ALL the clans issued the batchall before attacking. This is not true. They did not follow their own traditions. Might be, because they realized they would be in for more of a fight then they thought, and to lose battles that early in the invasion would embarrass them to no end. Using the excuse of the IS being less then the Dark Caste was just a dodge. They were already on the path to win at all costs and not worry about following the honor road, as it gets you losses.
Might want to read the wiki, as the fight for the IS had already started to change the idea of their honor warfare. The IS had gone to ground and still fought against the clans, even after the 'superior' warriors would have given up. The Falcons had to leave more troops behind to deal with such issues. Part of why there were not taking as much as they wanted to.
The rewrite would have nothing based on the alt, as the alt does not exist to the developers. So you would still say a rewrite was needed. This is supposed to be you presenting an alternative to canon, yet you are saying canon has to be rewritten to your views. If you don't see the failure of logic in this yet, I don't think you ever will.
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Requiem
08/07/20 04:18 AM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
Having a secured base where you can hit the enemy in the rear and not be hit back does nothing to stop further attacks? Did I miss tactics 101 here?
1. What was the Clans response to Wolcott – Embargo of the planet by introducing their Navy Warships – so unless the IS is willing to place to multiple warships over the planet and is willing to fight off clan warships this may pose an issue for future ingress and egress to and from the planet;
2. Only one of the Clans has promised not to attack it – thus making it a target for every other Clan;
3. In the event the Clan you fought against to win the world, no longer believes the IS deserves to treated the same as another Clan – ie. no Batchall anymore – then why do they need to honor their previous agreements? Thus opening the world to further attacks by the Clan you won it from in the first place; (limited time of utilizing the world as a base / difficulty in using the world due to an embargo of Clan Naval Warships and fighters.)
4. Tangibility of asking Omni-Mechs etc – reverse engineering and denying replacement Mechs to Clan front line forces – also transferring Clan Omni Mechs to IS Units in order to increase their combat potential in fighting the Clans.
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The issue with this was the lack of resources to actually do anything significant with it.
Was there any limited resources when it came to utilizing Wolcott as a base of operations?
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ideology
Think about the consequences as to fighting a war based upon the future of human freedom one side or the other must be completely destroyed. Till one side or the other is dead or under the boot of the other!
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Again, the use of the alt to justify saying the canon version is wrong doesn't work.
Really? Please explain all the massive holes and how they actually make any sense whatsoever – example Turtle Bay doing nothing is not an option; The year of peace (which should have been renamed as the year of preparedness) ; Sibkos – replacement personnel; Logistics and the Tyranny of distance – and the IS doing absolutely nothing to stop it; the 15 year period of the truce; the Falcon / Wolf war and the lack of a Lyran response or the reaping of warriors from the Jaguars and the Clan Hoe worlds to return to 100% operational efficiency; Closed societies Vs Open Societies and the use of psy-ops; resistance fighters ; Technology – The IS can make clan weapons but chooses not too due to budget cuts (and yet during WW2 how many billions were spent on building the Gadget?) ‘ whist Hanse was alive why was he sitting on his hands doing nothing?; loss of frontline forces to Resistance fighters and the introduction of PGCs; etc.
– do I really need to go on? The clan invasion story is one big bad joke – there is absolutely no credibility within the story as to the main arc, and the majority of sub arcs whatsoever …. They may be some good stories but when placed into the wider historical context they just don’t make the grade … It just does not work
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the fact that Focht made the bid.
Proxy ……. Please refer above as this was the logic used to justify how he achieved the 15 years peace.
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ALL the clans issued the batchall before attacking.
Then find the evidence …. I have provided detailed evidence regarding the Falcons …. Yours?
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the fight for the IS had already started to change the idea of their honor warfare.
Contact with the enemy changes everything ….
Still doesn’t change the fact that Clan rules were being obeyed ….
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So you would still say a rewrite was needed.
Absolutely – just make it in such a way as there are no holes in the development of the story!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/20 11:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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From all the stories I have seen on Wolcott, it isn't warships that are the threat there. It was fighters.
Second, At the time, no one figured the Jaguars would be wiped out, so no clan would go that far into their invasion zone to strike the world. There were more important targets, and the leave the world free would be an embarrassment to the Jaguars. A shining example of their defeat because they are inferior, from the clans point of view.
The Jaguars were more tradition bound then the Falcons. For them to just say honoring their deals would be turning their back on the way of the clan.
At this time, the clans still thought the IS was weak and unable to do much. The clan commander thought there was no way the DC would defeat him. So even if Theodore had asked for a warship, the commander would have still agreed. Or maybe, as I don't know exactly how much each commander viewed a world like that would be.
Yes. There was a lack of resource to use Wolcott as a base. If the DC had the resources, they could have cleared the system of Jaguar ships entirely, and kept it that way. Then it would have made a great location to strike from. As it was, the dropship pick up and drop off was one of those timed things and needed to be done in secret. The Black Thorns novel had this spelled out.
Didn't really think about the fact that the entire succession wars were about destroying one sides entire way of doing things, did you? The clans were a little more harsh then some, but for someone in the FS, being taken over by the DC or CC would have been the same thing.
The holes in the story line are a problem, but saying your vision is the only way to fix it, is what is wrong. As said, I could introduce the SDF 1 and start wiping out the IS. I could say that is the only way it could possibly go. And that statement would be completely wrong. There are a lot of things that would happen differently, and honestly, there would be very little that would match up.
Your alt has merit, but still has not close some of the very holes you are complaining about. It adds to them. The IS having the resources you suggest, would mean the clans would have attacked earlier, or not at all. The entire Amaris war would never have happened, since removing nukes from the game would prevent the devastation that was wrought to put the IS in their situation in the first place. Amaris would not have gotten close to Richard, if security had did it's job, as well as Kerensky's staff.
This is not even touching the numbers problem.
The 'poor' writing, about the distances was the developers way of making sure the IS survived the clans at that point. It was a weakness put in to help with the tech difference as well as the skills difference. Just as the honor road was put in to help the IS stop the clans. Not sure if the developers had in mind for the clans to become emperors, and split like they did in the later era's but that did leave room for more fights. Breaking up the FC was forseeable but then it really shouldn't have happened in the first place.
The reason the clan invasion is so 'poor' for you, is you don't like it, so will come up with every reason to say it was bad. It could have used a little, well a lot more, fact checking then it had, but otherwise it wasn't that bad. The suggestion that the DC start kamikaze attacks on the clans for Turtle Bay, ignores what happened during the succession wars. It was rife with such destruction, and they would never have allowed it to go unpunished then. So that logic falls flat.
The assassination of the coordinator a few times, would have had them striking those responsible with such actions, yet had they done so, the DC would not exist.
The location and battle were for Terra, and Focht bid for the fight. There were a lot of times when units moved a fight from a specific area, to avoid destroying it. As Ulric said their ultimate goal was Terra, they had not gotten to the point to actually challenge for it. He could well have said their ultimate goal was to destroy all the houses, and it would still not change the fact that Focht issued the bid. This is simple logic. Not sure why it is so difficult to figure it out, as there was a lot more complex things happening in the game.
Focht could have tried to make the fight on Stranamechty. The challenger does not get the option of when and where. Granted he didn't even know the world existed at this time, but it still remains a fact. Ulric and the clans were the defender in this challenge.
Logic fail again. You said all the clans issued the challenge, yet it was shown that the Jade Falcons did not follow that entirely. And you say you proved it, yet in print, it says not all did. Not sure why you think you original statement is true, as it was shown about the Falcons.
This, with other examples of the logic you show, I can understand why you still don't seem to get the story and game.
Again, you left out the context of that statement. You would demand a rewrite every time, as they would never follow your vision. That changes the entire statement. Which if you constantly leave out things like that in statements, it goes back to why you don't understand the storyline.
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Requiem
08/08/20 01:12 AM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
it isn't warships that are the threat there. It was fighters.
Where there are Fighters there must also be Drop-Ships. How do you maintain Fighters and their support Drop-Ships over a planet (and that they are unable to obtain any logistical support from) long term?
Support from a Warships sounds the only viable means of protecting the Drop-ships from an IS retaliation force.
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no clan would go that far into their invasion zone to strike the world.
And if the world is against the border (or even close to) with another clan?
And how many other clans would like to put a knife in the back of another Clan by demonstrating their greater martial prowess – by taking the world they were unable to do?
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The Jaguars were more tradition bound then the Falcons. For them to just say honoring their deals would be turning their back on the way of the clan.
Thus they will uphold all traditions – even the Batchall – allowing the defender to choose the Battlefield – Reparations in the event they lose?
As for reparations – what is the equal value of a world? …. No matter how you look at it – any captured Clansman will inform their captor of the Clans Traditions and if they do not know by then, by the end of the Dragoon Conference they will know all Clan Traditions.
And from the year of Peace – or should I call it by a more apt name the “year of preparedness” what the Clans should have faced from this point on should have been a vastly different military.
However what we got was a continuation of the same tactics and the same one unit to a world nonsense that was occurring prior to the “year of peace” – not one unit was moved – not one attempt to join forces not one engineering battalion creating an entirely new Battlefield upon which would be anvil the new IS army could act as the hammer to pound the Clans – not one attempt at manufacturing an infantry weapon that would provide them with a longer range defense against the “Toads”. – not one unit being reinforced with additional armor, fighter, infantry and VTOL forces – also where are the IS Onmi-Weapon systems at this stage – where are the IS warships en mass (pocket warships that are faster than the clans and maintain just one long range weapon capable of standing off and destroying any Clan Warship – a new Bismarck Class?
Sorry to say but the canon story gets a little repartitions and has no value from a military point of view by this stage – the cracks shown in the first waves have now become vast chasms as it is clear to see that all future battles are rigged in favor of the Clans. What should be considered to be massive issues – The tactics the IS has been utilizing - Sibko replacement numbers – tyranny of distance with regards to logistics – garrison numbers (PGCs) and partisans – cultural differences that should have led to a nuclear exchange between the DC and the Jags – the idea that Clans can fight is protracted battles with no support crews / vehicles other than their drop-ships – the idea that all battles are just Mech Vs. Mech – have all been paper-mached over to create a joke of an over-arching story going forward …
Post “Year of Peace” – where is the Battle of Inchon ? at the very minimum this should have been included at this point in time !
Some of the stories are interesting to read but the over-arching story is completely lacking – demonstrating that it was rushed to completion – and the completion was a pre-ordained joke – thus the need for a massive re-write.
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Didn't really think about the fact that the entire succession wars were about destroying one sides entire way of doing things, did you?
Yes, there is even an entire essay in the forum on the subject.
M.A.D. as a strategy to obtain dominance and become the next First Lord may sound seductive in its application – quick – efficient – However the idea of using WMDs has a massive flaw in the retaliation, and the massive loss of everything military. Especially when you are not prepared for the counterattack by retaining your military infrastructure above ground and known to the enemy, and maintaining your government upon a single world – again not in secret and upon warships.
The IS is just too vast for a single House to succeed – the only way to win is to conquer a House with its infrastructure intact and use both Houses military infrastructure to build a new army to take on the remaining three Houses one House at a time!
As shown by the creation of the F-C.
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The clans were a little more harsh then some
A complete and utter understatement – they would give the German Einsatzgruppen a run for their money on barbarity ….
And they are not the same as being taken over by the FC or the DC …. They pretty much leave the economies of the worlds intact and unharmed. The Clans totally destroy the pre-established social networks – Castes – removing children from schools so that they can go work in factories – no self determination – no money ….. the clans are the complete antithesis of that of the IS people’s society.
This is why it is war to the death of one system or another !
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but saying your vision is the only way to fix it, is what is wrong.
And where have I ever said that ? How many times have I stated that mine is my view and if people want to adopt my view it is their decision.
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The IS having the resources you suggest, would mean the clans would have attacked earlier, or not at all.
What happened to the FC 280 Regiments as per the 20 year update ?
How accurate were the reports supplied to the Clan Home World by the Dragoons if they were given orders by their Kan to go rogue and help the IS.
No matter how many forces the IS had or how technologically advanced they were or they had re-established the Star League the Clans would have attacked – Hubris is wonderful thing !
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The 'poor' writing, about the distances was the developers way of making sure the IS survived the clans at that point.
Wrong! It is making sure the Clans Survived – the same with sibko numbers – rigging the system in the favor of the attackers – the Clans !
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The reason the clan invasion is so 'poor' for you, is you don't like it, so will come up with every reason to say it was bad.
Mismanaged – poor research, on so many fronts – poor tactics and strategy – poor writing and plot development – poor everything – in my opinion
What authors (other than those use by Battletech) are acceptable? Sven Hassel, Ernie Pyle, Richard Harding Davis ?
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The suggestion that the DC start kamikaze attacks on the clans for Turtle Bay, ignores what happened during the succession wars. It was rife with such destruction, and they would never have allowed it to go unpunished then.
A complete lack of understanding as to samurai and the idea of Japanese Face is the problem here !
The Coordinator has NO CHOICE but to strike at the Jaguars with nukes at this stage – even House Honor would have NO CHOICE but to demand a retaliatory strike !
Again go and read all the literature regarding WW2 samurai and the concept of face when it came to Japanese POWs !
This shows a complete lack of research and understanding !
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The assassination of the coordinator a few times, would have had them striking those responsible with such actions,
And yet the DCMS did strike …..
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it would still not change the fact that Focht issued the bid. This is simple logic.
Refer to any dictionary – PROXY – and then extend the logic from there …
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And you say you proved it, yet in print, it says not all did.
And yet in print I have the Khan of the Jade Falcons entering into a Batchall with Victor Steiner-Davion …. And then there are multiple other examples in print of high ranking Clans Officers obeying their rules and customs during very important occasions !
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it goes back to why you don't understand the storyline.
The problem is that I understand all too well – from a n analytical and historical perspective ….. analysis of which demonstrates a lack of understanding as to military tactics, logistics, replacement personnel, reverse engineering, sociology …. And the list goes on and on ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/20 02:15 AM
66.74.60.165
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How does anyone support a fighter unit in a system?
They tend to ship in supplies if the system can not make what they need. It is NOT required to have warships in the system. So again, the only viable means is incorrect.
Some bondsmen may inform the IS about the clan customs. Not all of them will. Some would rather die then even think about serving the IS.
The IS got a bit from the year of peace. First off the Dragoon meeting was a bonus for those dealing with the clans. The fact the FWL was making upgrade kits for the front line was another large bonus. The work on the Gunslinger mech was a third bonus. So the concept of NOTHING happened is false. I do agree that things like the supposed mass movement of FS forces to help shore up the LC seemed to disappear.
No one helped each other? Again, reread the actual print, not put in what you want. The rescue of Luthien is a very big helping each other. The sharing of data, as well as both the FC and DC moving forces off the Draconis March borders was a big help.
And when did the invading armies of any story have the 'favor' of being better, not been in the story line? Fighting against long odds is normal. The ability to bleed the clans dry was possible, but far to expensive in terms of lives.
Actually, taking systems does upset the economy of both sides. Losing or gaining trading opportunities changes everything. Having to supply and retool factories, least the enemy not build everything on site, means changing some of the designs. Changing supply lines to bring in resources, if you actually have extra, is yet another exmaple of changing the economy.
Yeah. It wasn't like the DC and CC executed people. Now how do you change a society into thinking the way you want them to? Start with the children if you plan on a long stay. Not only do the keep parents from revolting, but once they start following your ways, the future means less resistance. It is a valid tactic, though one I don't really approve of.
You constantly say that things are the only viable solution. That is definitely says nothing else will work.
The idea of presenting things is not really being done here, but saying canon is wrong, as my view is the only way to fix things.
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ghostrider
08/08/20 02:38 AM
66.74.60.165
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The amount of forces the IS had would have changed the entire invasion. The clans would have invaded sooner, as they would want to stop the IS from getting to many units that they could not deal with. Or they would have seen the folly, even thru their rose colored glasses.
As you suggested they have warships earlier, this would mean the clans would have to move quickly or risk having warships fighting each other. This would definitely lead to more bombardments, as well as just having dropships wiped out in space.
How is the distance the clans have to ship things a means to keep them alive? Operation Serpent showed that is false. The fact that the clans had to go so far, meant the IS had the ability to play the attrition game. If the clans were much closer, you would have seen the bids getting broken, or other clans joining the fight. The rebellious nature of the IS worlds seen to making sure the clans could not use the PGCs and such to attack worlds. Or even garrison them quickly.
The novelists did not seem to follow the game closely, and the developers didn't seem to keep an eye on them as close as they should have. Violation of the rules happened more often then should have. It is possible that the developers were not set on what should happen. It looked like a reaction to the FC being formed. There had to be something to break it apart, and it did. Took some time, but the clans were the reason Victor did not pay attention to the FC. His actions were to keep the clans back.
A complete lack of understanding of the Samurai on your part seems to be the issue. The DC would not have survived had the DCMS acted like you suggest against the clans before then. The succession wars had nukes destroying worlds, not just a single city on a single world. Had the DC acted like you wanted them to, they would have lost so many warriors in the 1st succession war, I would doubt they would survive the 2nd. So your push is off in it's timing.
Focht challenge for the possession of Terra. The battle ground was chosen that was not on Terra. Why is this so hard to understand? The clans have constantly fought over things in other areas. To take a factory, they did not fight at the factory. The challenge is the last word. Doesn't matter where the fight takes place, Focht was the challenger.
Did the Jade Falcon khans leading the invasion in 3050 issue the batchall? Not all the time. Did Marthe issue it? Not at all. She accepted the batchall from Victor. There is no honor in attacking without issuing one. The entire Marthe invasion had no challenges sent BEFORE Victor was there.
So ALL of them is incorrect.
So far, the alt has had more then a few issues that does not follow tactics, supply lines, replacement personnel and such. And worse, You have tried to build on the very things you say are wrong with the game. Canon does NOT use your numbers. So arguing they are wrong because of that is why you don't understand this. Again. The alt is not the only viable solution to the problems. It is but one persons vision. One that a majority of the players don't seem to follow. You are the first I have heard that says the entire story of the game needs to be redone, then say it has to be your way.
I have said the rule changes invalidated more then a few things, and they needed to be updated. I did not say they had to be done my way or no way.
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Requiem
08/08/20 09:47 AM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
How does anyone support a fighter unit in a system?
The question that was being answered:-
In a system such as Wolcott where they are blockading the world and are unable to receive supplies from the world they are blockading ?
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Some bondsmen may inform the IS about the clan customs. Not all of them will.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bondsman
…. held as an indentured servant …. to work dutifully for their new masters and 1st Somerset Strikers – demonstrates how NOT to treat your bondsman.
Yes some may not discuss their traditions …. However how many will ?
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The IS got a bit from the year of peace.
Really?
The IS has a year to threaten ComStar with total annihilation when you spies testify as to their perfidy with the Clans;
You have a year to increase partisan activity throughout the Clan OZ – start PsyOps against non Warrior Clansmen and PGCs units – increase assassinations – increase Black Box activity throughout the Clan OZ and IS Forces etc;
The IS has a year to reform the Star League – and establish a new SLDF – PsyOps, - Paint all IS forces in the same colors as SLDF + add the Cameron Star to all their vehicles;
The IS has a year to assemble a defensible force to engage the next Clan Attack Wave – by FC, FRR, DC, ComGuard and Wolfs Dragoons;
The IS has a year to establish multiple Gothic Lines on worlds in front of the Clan’s OZ
The IS has a year to assemble a force to engage in a Battle of Inchon – from FC and DC space;
The IS has a year to assemble a force to engage Clan Logistics Fleets in the Deep Periphery – From FC and DC space; and
The IS has a year to retrain your existing forces with regards to new anti clan techniques and command education;
The IS has a year to implement a total war industrial system within every house.
… and the canon story - absolutely nothing ?
Given the CIC for the FC is Hanse Davion and the DC has Theodore and Takashi Kurita, this is the minimum that should have been considered achievable ……
As for upgrade kits – they should be reverse engineered Clan Tech weapons ….
As for the Gunslinger, I would prefer the Ventilator – then there should be the first IS Omnis …
Minimalism does not equate to a Total War Anti Clan Effort !
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It wasn't like the DC and CC executed people.
Warriors no longer - War Criminals !
Taking children as hostages, where is a Clans honor now ? The Clan that starts this folly will start a war against the entire population of every IS planet … what ever happened to the conduct of war from the 4th Succession War in the 1980s ? There was a time this would never have been considered.
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The amount of forces the IS had would have changed the entire invasion.
Then add more clans to the invasion force if you believe they require more ….
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this would mean the clans would have to move quickly or risk having warships fighting each other.
Having a navy means having naval engagements, having increased naval bombardments means returning to the First Succession war !
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How is the distance the clans have to ship things a means to keep them alive?
Its not going to keep them going … tyranny of time and distance …. Points to consider …
- tyranny of time and distance dominates strategic plans and concepts – movement times across space is measured in months;
- Deploy on force projection missions from Clan Space to the Inner Sphere;
- Transportation of ALL consumables – time to resupply / reinforce - in order to effectively sustain commitments and engage in competence;
- Fostering a secure resupply fleet – regional security and development;
- Any delay (insufficient forces) creates a political-military government gap that will allow insurrection to grow – counterinsurgency struggle against guerillas;
- Pre-positioning large quantities of consumables / replacement personnel should have been considered;
- Consider the inevitable large scale casualties and how this will affect operations;
- Victory – a negotiated settlement with an intractable opponent 6 months distant will be impossible and given the Inner Spheres history may involve a massive nuclear retaliation (Given the history of the Successions wars – what was the Clans response if the find themselves in a First Succession War Scenario?). It is not as if they can respond with all due alacrity. And what happens if the Inner Sphere decides to wage a First Succession War upon within Clan space in the event they discover the their home worlds locations? This is a very real possibility considering the level of barbarity the Great Houses have gone to during the Succession Wars – so what are thie plans for these eventualities?
- Thus does the Invasion have a critical mass to fight 6 months distant as a forward deployed power?
- The need to consider operational tempo – the need for a strategically responsive force that can dominate across all operations.
- Logistics issues – strategically deployment will require technological solution to dilemmas that were never addressed within the current canon story.
- What is the deployment time of a multidivisional IS force in reaching the Clan OZ – how many can they retaliate with at any one time – shifting battles from dues to attrition – compared to the time the Clans require;
- All requires superb mobility – and yet how when you are 6 moths distant and with so few Jump-Ships (refer to each Clans Touman they assigned to each navy – very small numbers noted)?
Unfortunately Clan Blinkers when it came to many of these issues were never investigated and explored to their true detrimental effect – they were just glossed over – and as such turning the invasion into a joke !
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The novelists did not seem to follow the game closely, and the developers didn't seem to keep an eye on them as close as they should have.
Editor in chief ? and simple communication ?
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A complete lack of understanding of the Samurai on your part seems to be the issue.
Have you read The Hakkenden or even watched the anime ? or even studied Hideki Tojo ? Facts are required …. Not opinions.
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Focht was the challenger.
Proxy ….. Focht was in the position of Defense …. The Clans were the aggressor ….. if Foct did nothing and Terra was finally attacked by the Clans what position would Focht be in ?
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Did the Jade Falcon khans leading the invasion in 3050 issue the batchall?
Yes … until there is evidence to contrary.
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The entire Marthe invasion had no challenges sent BEFORE Victor was there.
No one can say as no one wrote that scene into any book … however, given that Marthe DID accept Hegira is all the evidence I need to demonstrate that she was most definitely still obeying Clan rules.
Further Proof – The Great Refusal – still obeying Clan Rules ……
So all of them correct.
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So arguing they are wrong because of that is why you don't understand this.
Really since when did I relinquish my freedom of opinion and speech ?
If I believe I have discovered a factual error within the game I will point it out …
And as stated before I have not stated that the only solution is mine … I have only provided an alternate version for others to use if they are so inclined or to use one of my scenarios to make there’s a little more enjoyable …. And any how what is so wrong with creating an alternate history, for others to enjoy, if you believe the original to be lacking savoir faire ? I leave it in the hands of all to choose to use my suggestions or not ….
I just find a more revamped story is required in order to explain the holes that make no sense whatsoever ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/20 12:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Is there any other planets and such that the clans can get supplies from?
But more to the point, it is not necessary to leave a warship in the system. It may well be more of an issue to do so. But it would at least give one of them something to do other then patrols. Oh wait. They would still be doing patrols.
A bondsman is not going to just give up information, but respond to specific questions. So unless you ask about specific things, the information will not be forth coming.
Where in any of the print, says that house spies were the ones that found out Comstar was helping the clans? I don't remember a single spy coming thru with this. It was figured out with the way things went during an invasion of a world. It was only when Focht removed Walterly that this was confirmed.
As pointed out, the clan civilians were not really part of the invasion until the Ghost Bears started moving theirs. So what non warrior clansmen are you talking about to try to pervert with the 'psy-ops'? What Chandy and a few others did, was psy-ops, by sending luxuries into the clan homeworlds, and the diamond sharks were more then happy to do it for them.
Again comes the mythical forces popping out the back side in order to be sent behind the lines. They may have had the people to do so, but the risk of the ships would stop most attempts. Now it is possible that if they were going to raid some worlds, dropping of trained guerillas was done, but not just sending in the units. Eventually, the population would become angry that every assassination would mean more of them suffering for such an act. The clans did not stop to punish innocent people for such things.
Static defenses proved very ineffective against the clans. So making worlds of traps would do nothing more then piss off the clans.
But to answer the original question. You said the IS gained nothing from the year of peace. That statement is false. Brining up things that should have happened does not negate the fact your statement was false.
Still don't comprehend that customs of different nations may well be opposite of each other? For the clans, children were tested for their abilities and put into the castes. This has happened for over 250 years. This wasn't something they just started with the invasion. For them, it is criminal that the IS did not have something like it to get the full potential out of the masses. My teachings say doing so is wrong, but it is part of their society. The funny thing is, schools don't go that far, but they do take children away from their parents for a chunk of the day to teach them.
And for the clans, the children were not hostages, but being sent to the proper training program.
The addition to the invasion would have changed it completely. But given your want of advanced numbers of troop and equipment, the clans could not have done more then piss off the IS and get the counter invasion going before long, as well as not needing Comstar to fight them. This is on top of the fact that if the IS had more forces, Waterly would not have risked Comstar by helping the Clans. It was the idea that the houses couldn't do anything if they did find out that helped the decision to help the clans.
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ghostrider
08/08/20 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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So did you consider the increased chance of bombardments when you said the IS should have warships? The matter of when, not if, bombardments would start comes to mind. It is possible that before the invasion, the IS would have already started bombardments with warships against each other.
The fact still stands that if the DC reacted like you suggested, they would never have survived the succession wars, much less lived to the clan invasion. Their forces would have done the charge of ages, and all died in their rage to retain the 'honor' that was stained during the succession wars. The FS and LC bombed more then a few DC worlds, that would have required a full scale retaliation. And that would have allowed the FS/LC to plan more traps to wipe out larger chunks of the DCMS. Which would have driven even more into the rage of avenging the honor of those fallen. Something that seems to allude your entire thinking, while suggesting they would have to retaliate to the Turtle Bay issue. They would not be around to even witness this.
The Samurai surrendered WWII with only one condition. The emperor remain in power. This is not a nation that would rather die then be humiliated. This is not questioning the real people of Japan, but according to your vision, would never happen. The use of the nukes would have caused them to go fanatical beyond what they were.
Once the clans got to Terra, then he would be the defender. But he challenged Ulric to avoid the fighting on Terra. That little fact does not seem to register in your schemes. And Focht challenged all the clans, not just waited until they had figured out who would invade Terra. So instead of 1 clan, he faced them all.
So the evidence saying many of the falcon leaders did not issue a batchall isn't proof that not ALL of them did? So this is nothing more then trying to start/keep an argument going, but ignoring the facts? That is getting more and more common, as statements are being proven wrong.
Obeying clan traditions meant issuing a batchall before invading some one. Victor did not know of the other factors into pushing Marthe off Coventry. That is the ONLY reason why she accepted. If not for Vlad, she would have found a way to fight Victor's forces, or something else. She though it would happen until Hiegra was offered. It gave her the way out while keeping face. The conclusion with this is that Marthe was not honoring the traditions, so much as being given an out that would allow her to retain her honor. If she was honoring tradition, she would not have left, but fought it out. Never giving up a world that was won in blood is something you said.
Still not going to accept the statement of 'only viable solution' means only way to do is it written? And saying it could not happen any other way was another statement that comes up? That is saying that only your way is the correct one.
Saying that there are issues and saying there are multiple ways of dealing with it, is how to present an alternative. No one is exactly correct or wrong. It is supposed to be a different take on the issues. Wording, which normally follows intent, is where the facts have to be established. Canon is wrong, because the alt says so is saying exactly that.
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Requiem
08/08/20 10:04 PM
1.158.133.26
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How does anyone support a fighter unit a system?
Thus your plan to Embargo a Wolcott like planet is to rely upon aero-space fighter drop-ship carriers, supported by Jump-ships and their support drop-ships?
How is this going to be an effective embargo? – too close to the planet and you risk attack from the fighters / capitol missiles on world – too far and you risk being ineffective by being outpaced / out positioned by incoming / outgoing forces.
How long will it take to build a base on another planet / moon and will that base be effective considering the elliptical nature of planets – and then the issue to tyranny of time and distance once more must be considered in order to determine the effective nature of the fighter embargo.
And as the Clans forgot to bring in mobile space stations this too becomes a non issue ….
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A bondsman is not going to just give up information, but respond to specific questions. So unless you ask about specific things, the information will not be forth coming.
Since when ? …. Tiaret Nevversan ……
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Where in any of the print, says that house spies were the ones that found out Comstar was helping the clans?
Logic …. Partisans know that ComStar is administering worlds for Clans, they could find out the truth on the matter …. when the partisan unit is resupplied with weapons / special forces assassins from House Units what do you expect the partisans to do …. keep silent on the matter?
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It was only when Focht removed Walterly that this was confirmed.
This assumption only works if all Houses do NOT assist any partisan activity on any of the Clan OZ worlds (in their tactical rear.)
It is also built upon the assumption that the Clan Invasion Series is a one dimensional series with absolutely no depth to it at all.
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So what non warrior clansmen are you talking about to try to pervert with the 'psy-ops'?
So the Clan’s warriors ‘Mechs have no support elements – technicians etc, and their warriors have no cooks or medical personnel etc.
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What Chandy and a few others did, was psy-ops, by sending luxuries into the clan homeworlds
Then who were the Clansmen he was entertaining when Cassie came into the room ?
Also if this was the extent of a Houses Psy-ops activities this clearly demonstrates a one dimensional / joke view of invasion narrative for the Clan invasion, can I now consider BattleTech as a comedy ?
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Again comes the mythical forces popping out the back side in order to be sent behind the lines.
Again mathematics says otherwise ….
Consider the 20 year update for all available forces
Consider the 4th Succession War Atlas’ for the availability of transport …. And the short distances many of the units have to take and yes it is achievable. Especially when the movement of forces is initiated at the start of the Clan Invasion when all Houses recognize that they are being invaded.
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The risk of the ships would stop most attempts
Then why have wars at all if the precious ships are in danger … why have exploration ships to other un-kown worlds if the precious ships are in danger – why was the outbound light even sent …. Why send two fleets to Huntress if the precious ships are in danger ?
Sorry but this argument cannot be considered credible.
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Static defenses proved very ineffective against the clans. So making worlds of traps would do nothing more then piss off the clans.
This is again a complete and utter fallacy within the game world – try this with 3 RCTs full complement of infantry and vehicles and allow multiple strikes at any clan forces from any direction at once – simultaneous attack vectors – from all forces in range – including artillery and aerial attacks by conventional bombers and fighters and mass VTOL attacks in a position that favors the IS defense units. Unless the Clans dramatically increase their forces they will not make it very far – and when they do they will find that their Dropships have been appropriated via infiltration of infantry forces. (no resupply – no evacuation no food / water etc.)
As for the toads – I give every infantry unit Inferno SRMs and revamp the rules if every person has one SRM then the number of shots / damage should equal the number of available people shooting ….
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Brining up things that should have happened does not negate the fact your statement was false.
Adhering to an outdated one dimensional view – where the IS sits back and does absolutely nothing to stop the invaders is an exercise in pointlessness – please re-read the title for this forum – Alternate History – this is in no way supposed to be a homage to the Canon’s boring view on war and even more boring history !
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Still don't comprehend that customs of different nations may well be opposite of each other? For the clans, children were tested for their abilities and put into the castes.
Still don’t get it when this is attempted in the IS by people who value the family unit ….
Try this in an open IS environment and you are going to have trouble.
History – proves this point.
As for schools they do not permanently take children away where the parents NEVER see their children again like the clans do on their home-worlds.
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And for the clans, the children were not hostages, but being sent to the proper training program.
Training programs ? get real, no one would ever believe this !!!!!!
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the clans could not have done more then piss off the IS and get the counter invasion going before long
So the clans don’t have multiple forward reconnaissance units backed up with intelligence corps to provide information through to Div. HQ who then assigns forces to the next wave based upon the reconnaissance data ?
What type of idiotic invasion is this ? Might as well have forces floundering away.
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It was the idea that the houses couldn't do anything if they did find out that helped the decision to help the clans.
Did no one ever consider Nationalization ? ComStar is not untouchable !
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It is possible that before the invasion, the IS would have already started bombardments with warships against each other.
The same law that protects Jump-ships, factories and has stopped the use of WMDs extends to orbital bombardments.
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The fact still stands that if the DC reacted like you suggested, they would never have survived the succession wars, much less lived to the clan invasion.
Do some research as to Samurai behavior – it is far more complicated, and the Battletech books have only showed an accurate description a few times – suggest looking at WW2 Japanese Forces for clarification on the issues.
And yes they would have to retaliate to Turtle Bay – Face ……
Again do some research on the topic !!!!!
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That is saying that only your way is the correct one.
Wording, which normally follows intent, is where the facts have to be established. Canon is wrong, because the alt says so is saying exactly that.
Sorry but this is not the case – third party opinions are not intent ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/09/20 01:03 AM
66.74.60.165
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What capital missiles were based on Wolcott? They were not around until after the war. So another logic hole?
And it is easier to use dropships to embargo the world, then a single warship. If you want to use more, then it becomes even more wasteful.
Logic is not printed text saying house spies found out that Comstar was helping the clans. So yet another false statement. They are really starting to add up.
For those people on the worlds, they did not know Comstar was helping the clans, as they posed as someone keeping the clans from destroying their society. They were the white knights in the scenario. So unless someone was walking around bragging how the clans got intel from Comstar, the statement the knew if false.
Oh. You mean the failed warriors. The support personnel were in positions that were better then most on the home worlds. But with this, when would you meet them? After you been captured? And they are going to believe you out of hand? A few disgruntled ones may, but that is not an uprising.
The clansmen in the room are not as important as Chandy was in setting this up. Merchants from all the clans were starting to make runs. He said these ones were from the Diamond Sharks. Why be specific if they were the only ones doing so?
The mathematics are YOUR numbers. So suggesting canon had the forces, is saying yet again, only your vision is right. The 4th war destroyed the Davion economy as they used the ships needed to keep it afloat to move the small amount of forces a short distance and keep them supplies. It was not like they moved across the IS or were prowling behind the enemies lines several jumps out. And with the 4th war, they put a lot of strain on the jumpships with the constant use. But I would bet that statement slipped the comprehensive reading. Part of why the raid on Kathil would be so devastating to the FS forces. It was dealing with the issues of the over stressing of the jump drives.
Still don't understand that saying Comstar was in the same shape as the houses were for ships doesn't work. They had their own fleet, which was far better shape then any houses. And there is a risk inherent with any jumps including exploration. But someone bought the ship for just that purpose.
The necessity of sending ships to an enemy stronghold overrides the worries only some of the time. This is not even counting ships being captured or destroyed, which did happen from time to time during boarding. It was not done on purpose, but it is impossible to avoid mishaps.
The flaw in the idea that you will have 3 rcts against a single trinary is where your concept falls apart. You might get something like 3 rcts against a galaxy, if you can keep them secret from Comstar. And once Comstar stopped supplying data to the clans, the effectiveness of their invasions dropped. Intel goes a long way to prevent the overwhelming forces you are trying to push.
Then stop saying canon is wrong because the alt did something different. This is supposed to be a presentation of an alternative to canon, yet it is being used more to bash canon as you don't like they way it went. Something you still don't seem to understand.
Making a false statement, then trying to get out from under it by trying to distract from the statement isn't going to work anymore. You keep saying canon did/did not do something, and it is false.
I'm sorry. Except for Freeborns, who else would go to see their parents? I did not see anywhere that the children of any other caste but the warriors never seen their children again. Even freeborn warriors will see their family when they get shore leave if they are around. So only the trueborns will never see their family again, which isn't that bad as they normally don't know who is actually their family. The genes of a sibko are not all the same. Otherwise statements like one particular strain would not be dominating their sibko.
Case in point. Diann has seen Peri more then a few times, even when in warrior training. I don't think she was the only one that got away with it.
Military schools and work programs in todays world is about the same thing. The children don't have much option to just leave and return home. For some, the child is years older before they do see them. Not sure how strict they are with writing to each other. So that might be an out for this.
Where did it say that the clans EVER reconned a world before invading? They relied on Comstar, or their own orbital scans. That did not change the fact that the commanders that would bid, were already assigned to make the bids, even before the opposition was known.
Taking over Comstar would have destroyed the HPG network. Even with the siding with the clans, they were still neutral enough to get a majority of the messages to whom they were meant for. Until the clan invasion, there was not many that were caught being misplaced intentionally, so in all standards, Comstar was the only one that could run the HPG. Otherwise, you could never trust the HPG network if the houses ran it.
The idea of the IS having plenty of ships and such would have resulted in the IS starting to perform such actions. They would have had enough to survive for a while. And it is only a small area of a world, on the enemies side of the border. The sentiment would expand to become another 1st succession war. It may not be for a few hundred years, but it would happen.
Again, read the response. The DC would NOT be around during the invasion if they did what you suggested. They would NOT have survived the succession wars. So the point of Turtle Bay is moot. The DC would not have been a nation at that point. And I do know something other then Battletechs take on Samurai honor. The lord was the one that said weither some thing should be considered his honor. So it he said he would suffer the loss of face, then the warriors were relieved of the stain to their honor. And it would not cause the rise up that you seem to want to insist. The only reason you are suggesting it, is because you need it to support bagging on the developers. Without it, your complaint of the lack of response falls flat.
The constant sayings is where the intent solidifies. Saying canon is wrong because it doesn't fit your numbers or values is not presenting an alternative way of playing, it is a basis used to trying to complain about it. Go read Retry's comments on Crossroads. It does not say canon is wrong, or does much to even conflict with it. It provides people with an alternative that modifies the game, but doesn't negate what it is doing. They set up their own little corner and run it from there.
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Requiem
08/09/20 08:51 AM
1.158.133.26
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So another logic hole?
Discussing worlds: Wolcott is a FC ‘Allegorical example’ …..
Killer Whale Capital Missile - Year Availability 3051 – FC - Can be launched by purpose-built silos to attack orbital targets - Maximum Range 10,000 Kilometres - Time to Target 23 minutes <@ max. range.>
Year of Peace – October 3050 to November 3051
More than enough time to place multiple “purpose-built silos” upon the multiple worlds and which will comprise the “Gothic Line” fortifications in order to stop the Clan’s advance … cold.
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Logic is not printed text saying house spies found out that Comstar was helping the clans. So yet another false statement.
Q.E.D.
If false then the House this world did belong to has washed their hands of any responsibility of it and its people – ie during WW2 the English refuse to assist the Partisans – the S.O.E. is not formed. Tactically and strategically this callous act serves no purpose whatsoever – no information gathered, no holding up frontlines units in the rear suffering massive casualties to insurgent activities etc.
Also you say there is no printed text – question why did all the Clans complain about IS worlds refusing to give up and the activity of partisans on these worlds – where did these partisans obtain the necessary armaments / leadership to keep this going for so long ? The only way this is achievable is if all Houses are sending in people and material to assist these partisan forces – this also means that information is being exchanged as to the state of affairs on these worlds.
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they did not know Comstar was helping the clans
Just one person, on one world, who has been told to be a quisling on the people they have lived with for how many years, who finds this order to be reprehensible and this argument falls over ….
After living with and having friends, and in all probability family, in the community you have been working with for how many years and it is expected that every ComStar adept will betray them ?
From a sociology and psychological perspective this statement does not in any way hold true for 100% conformity.
Not all people are not that callous.
All I need in one who had downloaded all the evidence as to ComStars perfidy and they now must explain themselves …
In all reality and at an absolute bare minimum 10% in the beginning, and if the Clans instigate a child abduction then 95% minimum …..
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You mean the failed warriors. The support personnel were in positions that were better then most on the home worlds.
Since when did every Clan Military Support Personnel consist of failed warriors? As this would also include cooks, cleaners, logistics personnel, administration, communication, medical etc. Where are the freeborn ?
For many of the Clans how well are their Freeborn treated – case in point how well did the Jaguars and Falcons treat theirs ? indentured serfs had more freedom during the dark ages … Also when the Khan of the Ghost Bears suspended all rights to their freeborn how well would that have gone down ?
Psy-ops – when a closed society is introduced to an open society will suffer a massive form of angst …. You are looking at Spartacus in the beginning …
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He said these ones were from the Diamond Sharks. Why be specific if they were the only ones doing so?
Uncle Chandy does not do anything by half …. This is clearly more significant than anyone realized. Clearly this is an issue that was forgotten about … just like so many throughout the Clan Invasion …
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Mathematics
How can you say so quickly it will not work if you have not run your own numbers ?
Opinion piece backed up by no real quantifiable data ?
Mathematics does not lie it is an absolute – count the number of active units during the initial 4th Succession War as well as those occurring shortly there-after – look at the distances / time frame from the units being moved to the front - look at movement closest to furthest – look at all the units available in the 20 year update and it is quite achievable !!!!
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The 4th war destroyed the Davion economy
Economic recovery takes how many years as the 4th Succession war concluded in 3030 – 20 years is taking this a bit far when it comes to economic recovery ?
Also with the 3039 / 40 war that removes the CC once and for all the FC economy would be on a bull high – so quite impossible for their to be any economic issues !
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It was dealing with the issues of the over stressing of the jump drives.
Helm Memory Core – the House Jump-ship fleet are on par with that of ComStar – otherwise how did all the IS Jump-ships make it to Huntress and Back ? Or, did someone forget to write in that ComStar provided a free Jump-ship engine service and repair to every ship before they departed for both Serpent and Bulldog ?
Sorry but this argument just does not hold water.
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You might get something like 3 rcts against a galaxy
Can I laugh now ? …. How many Clan warriors whist bidding for the right to attack 3 RCTs (the Glory of which would promote them to a RiStar – and possibly get them on the track to winning a name / ensuring their genetic legacy for the next sibko) would stop at a Galaxy ?
Hubris, thy name is a Clan Warrior desiring gene immortality …..
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This is supposed to be a presentation of an alternative to canon, yet it is being used more to bash canon as you don't like they way it went.
And yet ….
• What capital missiles were based on Wolcott? They were not around until after the war. So another logic hole?
• Logic is not printed text saying house spies found out that Comstar was helping the clans. So yet another false statement.
• So unless someone was walking around bragging how the clans got intel from Comstar, the statement the knew if false.
• The support personnel were in positions that were better then most on the home worlds. But with this, when would you meet them? After you been captured? And they are going to believe you out of hand?
• He said these ones were from the Diamond Sharks. Why be specific if they were the only ones doing so?
• The mathematics are YOUR numbers. So suggesting canon had the forces, is saying yet again, only your vision is right. The 4th war destroyed the Davion economy as they used the ships needed to keep it afloat to move the small amount of forces a short distance and keep them supplies
• Still don't understand that saying Comstar was in the same shape as the houses were for ships doesn't work.
• The flaw in the idea that you will have 3 rcts against a single trinary is where your concept falls apart. You might get something like 3 rcts against a galaxy,
So even in “a presentation of an alternative to canon” all I am allowed to do is conform to the Canon story ? I am not allowed to present any alternative ?
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Except for Freeborns, who else would go to see their parents?
Why would a true born want to visit the test tube and the metal container their genetic material was placed into for the holidays ? ….. just going to go see Vat no XGY-389-648 and give them my Iron incubator card (Mother’s day / Father’s day Pun)
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So only the trueborns will never see their family again, which isn't that bad as they normally don't know who is actually their family.
Then how do they fight for a Name if they do not know which one they belong to ? also hasn’t it be shown numerous times that every Clan Warrior knows exactly who their genetic material came from as well as their accomplishments ….
Diana Pryde – the freeborn daughter of Aiden Pride who’s mother is Peri, of the Scientist Caste …. Born of two trueborn , from the same sibko ….. which makes it more like Brother and Sister making Peri ?
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Military schools and work programs in today’s world is about the same thing.
Really? Do I really have to explain this ?
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Where did it say that the clans EVER reconned a world before invading?
And yet there is a story where the Clans Jumped in and listed to the initial start up of every unit on the planet as they went battle ready – thus allowing them a complete TO&E of the unit in question they were about to invade …
And any military that doesn’t have a reconnaissance and intelligence unit and relies on a third party for all its intelligence should never even be considered ….
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Taking over Comstar would have destroyed the HPG network.
Considering how every House Lord hates Comstar, every House should have a contingency plan in place to deal with ComStar …. Privatization is a good first step.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ComStar#Dissolution
“ the Blessed Order was ultimately crushed by the Republic of the Sphere with all of ComStar remaining within the Republic paying the price, forcibly integrated into the Republic, with all their assets absorbed. No longer a truly separate or independent order, ComStar keep their internal organization ranks, but reported directly to Republic leadership”
Thus proving it is capable of absorbing ComStar into any House ….. so how does the HPG system work once comstar has been destroyed ?
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The DC would NOT be around during the invasion if they did what you suggested. They would NOT have survived the succession wars.
Please Research Samurai Warrior Ethos and especially Hakkenden and that of WW2 …. It also would help to understand the Arch principle of Japanese society and your position within the arch …. And from there go on to consider the principles of Face and how this relates to their society ….the idea of being a salary man would help, and how they go out drinking … Or how about reading a few volumes on understanding how International Business is conducted within Japan …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/09/20 08:51 AM)
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ghostrider
08/09/20 12:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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So when did the DC get ahold of that missile? It isn't like the FC gives away tech to anyone. The rules might suggest that all tech was handed off to each other, and this is one of the times I think the rules didn't follow what would have happened.
The IS has always been known to have people resisting the governments, even their own. The fact that more then a few were set up to do so is where they continue to fight the clans. Why the clans complained is they did not have someone fight on after a victory was declared in a few hundred years.
And this does not change the fact that there is no where printed, that the locals knew, much less had evidence, Comstar was working with the clans. And the house spies did not confirm it. So saying the house spies found out comstar was working with the clans is false.
The idea of some sort of freedom from people that were going to become clan property did not have any real strength behind it to say this is how life will be. Except for the Dark Caste, most only spoke their dislike towards the position in life, but were not about to rise up. The clan civilians would have seen such talk as desperation of people that were losing the war. Anything to avoid having to become 'civilized' by the clans. And no matter how bad it was, the civilians knew the clan ways were better then the IS ways. They were not about to stick out their necks at the time to try and challenge the clan leaders and ways.
Forgotten about? Chandy may well have helped the clans step away from their ways of not wanting personal things, like fiefdoms. It may well have helped accelerate the decline in following the challenges and a more chaotic ways of the clans. Not that I am saying was the intent when started, as the power of plenty does a lot to remove some issues, it does promote the use of violence to obtain things. It was the right thing to do, in order to get change going. It seemed to change the idea from the clan to me thinking.
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ghostrider
08/09/20 01:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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Because the numbers I have do not match yours. The follow the setting of the game closer then yours do. The fact is, the IS does not have the numbers of ships needed to sustain a large scale war at this point. This is probably why the factories and such were left to rot in some areas. Basic resources such as food and water needs to be moved, with some ships set for moving the military as there will be raids and invasions. So basically, the IS is still scrambling to cover things with the few resources they have. I think there is some issues with this, but that is the general implications of what is going on. You said it yourself that the IS has far more resources then it does in canon. So talking from canon, your numbers are wrong. You bag canon with numbers that don't match. This is not suggesting alternate views. This is trying to come up with fantasy concepts to say canon is wrong.
Still not reading what happened. The FS economy was repaired by 3033 according to the printed materials I have seen. Which is how the 3039 war was conceived. So no. It wasn't 20 years. Misleading information from a lack of knowing what is real in the game print. This is a re-occuring issue with a lot of the complaints to the game.
Showing an alternative, and saying canon can not have happened is far from the same thing. You say canon is not believable, yet refuse to just leave it and create the universe anew. You constantly say yours is the only viable way things could happen, yet that isn't true, and it isn't showing an alternative. It is say canon is so wrong, it can't stand. There is plenty of things that aren't right, but saying only yours is the way forward is not showing an alternative. Some how, this is not sinking in.
And yet you suggest that all children need to see their parents, or their parents need to see their children. In the clans, most are not even allowed to know which iron womb they were grown in. So from the clans point of view, removing children from their family for a while is a good thing, not this horrible evil when leads to hostages.
As said before, the DNA of a complete sibko is not from the same people. And knowing you are from house Pryde, does not say your parents were so and so. This is why DNA is not used soon after it is harvested. Only in a few rare cases did the DNA get used before a few generations of sibkos were done. Natasha and Ranna being a fine example of that. Natasha was young when she left the clans. Her DNA was use to create several batches of warriors, but not immediately after she left. Figure 20 years per batch, so if one generation is skipped, then grand daughter fits for Ranna. This is a guess, not an actual fact based on hard numbers.
Comstar gave them the intel for the most part. They could have done some orbital scans as they were descending to attack the world. But there were no boots on the ground before the clan invaded a world. It was all a large drop of forces. Depending on how much the sensor issue was skewered again, it is possible the inbound ships could scan the world from farther out. It isn't like they haven't done crap like this before.
And now you know why the HPG network failed during the RoTS. No one entity ran it, and all that did, had their own agendas. Information from one nation could not be trusted to be correct in another nation. Each would have their own ideas of what could and couldn't be allowed to be sent in or out.
Research what? The fact that nuking a DC world would cause a rabid desire to run out and punish those that did so doesn't work in history, but does work in a time frame you don't like? The Jaguars need to be exterminated, but yet that very reaction would not have happened in the past? You don't see the paradox here? Not surprising as you are trying to say that the clan invasion shouldn't have happened, since it hurt the FS/FC. Logic is not something the works only when you want it to.
And worse, what happens to the warriors honor when the nukes came after the front lines were pushed back? Luthien got nuked, as we have not been able to neutralize the FS. The lose of face would drive most into a frenzy. Make logic stick in ALL situations. Otherwise, you are opening up the same logic issues canon has.
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Requiem
08/09/20 08:25 PM
1.158.133.26
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So when did the DC get a-hold of that missile?
Yes it is like the FC does give away tech !
Benjamin Franklin “We must hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang.”
Concessions must be made in order to form the 2nd SL and the 2nd SLDF under the Command of Morgan Hasek-Davion.
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…. there is no where printed, that the locals knew, much less had evidence, Comstar was working with the clans.
This is perhaps one of the biggest fallacies within the Canon story.
If anyone believes that ComStar could keep hidden their sin, that they were in a secret alliance with the Clans to assist with the administration of any worlds they capture in favor of providing them military information – whilst at the same time initiating an information blackout on the world in question is beyond ludicrous.
One AFFC / DCMS office who arrived at the HPG station and demanded an emergency message be sent and subsequently got off world – there will be questions asked – if this occurs multiple times the House Lords Intelligence Organizations will suspect ComStar …. One ComStar person who decides to become a whistle-blower and it is all over …. Can anyone say with absolute certainty that every ComStar Adepts (100%) who has lived in a community for years and may have a vast number of friends and family would be willing to renounce them for ComStar’s orders ….?
An understanding of basic human psychology says otherwise ……history says otherwise …..
All it takes in one person providing the right information and everything changes ……. How many whistle-blowers have changed political history in recent history ….?
Sorry but to come out with a blanket statement that because of ‘pitiful writing and plot development’ it could not happen is again ludicrous …. Human nature and human experience prove otherwise …. It stands in my Alt. ComStar cannot escape a sin of this size utilizing every HPG upon every one of the Clan OZ worlds …. ComStar doesn’t have Gestapo political officers to keep their members in line by fear …. And even then conscious empathy will win out ….
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Anything to avoid having to become 'civilized' by the clans.
And the clan’s way of life is Civilized ?
Just looking at what happened to freeborn societies who demand their rights (that would have been codified under the SL charter of human rights and ignored by the Clans) – how many times did a Clan ruthlessly destroy civilian populations as the Mongoose warriors did to the Adder colonists on Marshall ?
Open Society (Inner Sphere) Vs. Closed Society (Clans) …. Historical imperative West and East Germany ! Poland ! etc.
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So talking from canon, your numbers are wrong. You bag canon with numbers that don't match. This is not suggesting alternate views. This is trying to come up with fantasy concepts to say canon is wrong.
This is an Alt Universe ? Yes …. And still I am told I cannot do it because your cannon figures are not the same as mine.
I stand by my calculations – my Alt. Universe will have all the forces it needs to continue Attrition Warfare / Gothic Line.
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removing children from their family for a while is a good thing, not this horrible evil when leads to hostages.
Really ?
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As said before, the DNA of a complete sibko is not from the same people. And knowing you are from house Pryde, does not say your parents were so and so.
Go to …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Aidan_Pryde
at the top of the page
… he was from the Ramon Mattlov-Tania Pryde sibko
Then further down a direct quote …
“I am canister-born and sibko-bred, from the Mattlov-Pryde genetic line. My name is not Jorge; it is Aidan. Clan law permits me to compete for the Bloodname of Pryde, which was that of my genemother Tanya Pryde.”
Aidan, making his claim for a Bloodname, form Bloodname, chapter 21
Q.E.D.
ALL know who their gene mother and gene father are !
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But there were no boots on the ground before the clan invaded a world.
Satellites and orbital communication are no longer a part of reconnaissance ? The communication obtained by placing a warship above a world – counting the heat blooms of Mech engines coming on line / listening to units calling in that they are operationally ready is no longer reconnaissance ?
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why the HPG network failed during the RoTS
Operational efficiency is not the point.
What is the point is that ComStar can be over-thrown and new regime put in …..
If ComStar can fall in the future it can also fall in the past ….
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Research what? The fact that nuking a DC world would cause a rabid desire to run out and punish those that did so doesn't work in history, but does work in a time frame you don't like?
Research that this idea of samurai and their desire for vengeance is so far off base it is not funny …… go back and read about the Ronin War …. And the Coordinators response to the First Lord as to Duels ….
A Samurai must obey they Lord ! However if their Lord violates the rules this will cause issues …. Watch Akira Kurosawa films at the minimum.
As stated many times Samurai and their code of Honor is complicated …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/10/20 11:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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Blustering does not answer the question. When did the DC get ahold of the Killer Whale missile design? You are harping on canon, and come up with the statement, yet I do not see where the DC got the plans, or even the finished product which to set up on Wolcott.
That is why a shadow organization such as ROM is used to police the ranks. Few are going to go against the company, as they would be killed without warning. Those working in Comstar know this. I also do not know how far Comstar goes to brainwash those that join, so there is a little leeway for how loyal they are.
Now, the low level workers are not going to have access to the super secret missions or decisions the first circuit was have or make. They get the official line. So as much as it sounds like it would happen, the local clan leader is not going to just ask the front desk clerk that they need troop intel on their next invasion. Anyone that can hack into the systems will already know what will happen if they say ANYTHING about seeing such a request.
Another point, if the person demanding an emergency message be sent, it identifies that person for capture or elimination. So them getting off world at a later time is highly unlike. It is unlikely they will even live past a few days of sending the message. They have identified themselves as an issue with keeping things quiet.
And Comstar is not above having a whole message transmission become garbled to prevent such an issue from being found out. An explosion during the transmission time works. And yes. They would do so.
Civilized? Yes. Morally acceptable? Not so much. They do not bang rocks together and sleep under the open sky because they have nothing else. The raise animals and make things that better life, though distribution of the more luxurous items is restricted. They use language and have a government that isn't small tribes scratching out a living. Dictators tend to be civilized, but to things most consider immoral.
Read and comprehend. Something lacking in your understanding. You are going to do what you want with your alt. That in itself isn't the problem. Saying canon is wrong because it doesn't follow your made up numbers is. Something that seems to be really hard to understand. This, as well as saying your view is the only way it can be, is the root of the problem. If the game is that horrible, why bother with it?
With the discovery of the names of those that gave to make his sibko, which isn't all one set of peoples DNA, only the Mothers line is cared about. That determines what blood name they can go after. And yet, most warriors never know who their parents were. Most do not even try to get into the Bloodnamed tournament, as they don't normally have a sponsor. The grand melee is for those desperate and highly egotistical to believe they should be in there, and were unfairly treated, which may well be the case.
Where did they even pause to hack into satelites, or try to count the heat signatures in any printed material before an invasion? They had the estimates on numbers before they got into the system. It was later in the invasion that they set up bidding after issuing the batchall. Given the short invasion time frame, and how many worlds they would have to have forces near to bid on, there is not really time to do this. The Wolves had 2 warships. So how many worlds did they observe with them in the invasion?
We had that discussion about Comstar falling in the past. I guess ending several wars in Europe happened as nukes were dropped in the 1500-1800s. It happened in the future, so it can happen in the past.
The real reason for Comstar being removed was circumstances. It would not be done sooner as there was other things going on that countered doing so. And with doing so, One company did not run the HPG network, so multiple entities were able to bring it down.
So your are saying that if their lord says to forget an incident, then they are not to rush out and try to remove the entity that caused it? The fact with the bombardment is such a case. Takashi and Theodore knew there was nothing to be done at that time to rush out and remove the Saber Cat. Takashi took it upon himself to absorb the dishonor for not destroying his forces to try and do so? That is not saying there would not be plans made up to do so in the future, but at that time, they did NOT have the forces to even attempt it.
The use of nukes is yet another paradox in your whole view. They need to be banned altogether, yet need to be used because of a situation you don't like. And you don't see this as a problem. Must use them as they can't stop a warship otherwise. That is wrong. Wars are fought with one side having something the other doesn't. Germany having the tech and blitz to push Russia back, but in the end the numbers were what put the Russians back into the wars. So since Germany had the tech, that meant the Russians should have that same tech, or use things like WMDs to stop the German advance? They did have chemical warfare, as well as some biological stuff at the time.
Your statements of Samurai honor doesn't stay consistant. You can not run out and suicide one issue, and not do that same for the same type of issue earlier in time. The FS and LC bombed worlds of the DC in all the succession wars. Even during the lulls. The Jaguars were at war with the DC and bombed them. What is the difference between the two? One happened once 300 years into the future of the others. The entire first war would not have allowed any DCMS unit to declare peace under that premise. So maybe you should stop using your logic and comprehensive reading, and ask someone else to show it to you. It seems you don't see more then one side to anything like this.
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Wick
08/10/20 05:25 PM
173.247.25.195
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This is why DNA is not used soon after it is harvested. Only in a few rare cases did the DNA get used before a few generations of sibkos were done. Natasha and Ranna being a fine example of that. Natasha was young when she left the clans. Her DNA was use to create several batches of warriors, but not immediately after she left. Figure 20 years per batch, so if one generation is skipped, then grand daughter fits for Ranna. This is a guess, not an actual fact based on hard numbers.
In an even more extreme example, Katya Kerensky is gene-great-granddaughter of Ulric. When Katya is born in 3025, Ulric was 27 or 28, not even Bloodnamed (though was a ristar). Thus three full generational-cycles pass in 27 or 28 years, or a cycle of just 9 years, not 20.
Though I personally think this is an example of the author taking too much liberty with the process. I agree a 20-30 year turnaround is more reasonable and thus author should have made Katya gene-daughter instead. But given their obsession that each generation is superior to the one before it, perhaps Clans are willing to waste a lot of genetic material on failed lines and, if gene-parents (or gene-grandparents, and perhaps even gene-great-grandparents) don't pan out as worthwhile Warriors or disgrace themselves in some way, are willing to abandon those cadets to lesser castes (or annihilation in some cases.) But in the rare case that the gene-ancestor does well (wins Bloodname, high rank, or high honor) then they know they've got Warriors who are multiple-generations better than that ready for combat.
So given this mindset and the canon example of Katya I don't think its as "rare" as you think. Ranna being gene-granddaughter of Natasha after a 55 year gap doesn't sound all that extreme, as its quite possible Natasha has several more generations of progeny than that.
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ghostrider
08/10/20 08:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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The reason for thinking 20 years or so, comes from making sure the genes are superior, which it is possible one person in the line was better then the rest. Grand daughter would imply Natasha probably had a gene joining between Ranna and her.
The information here is based on Aidan Pryde, as it states in the novels, he genes were being used in the very next batch of sibkos.
It is also possible they skip one sibko, to avoid people knowing who their children actually are. Even though it seems more then a few know the genetic line, especially WHO gave their donations, it is supposed to be unknown to all, as it helps remove the family bonds that may cause issues.
The pause may well be just 9 years. I suggested 20 as it seems to be a decent time for children to grow and prove themselves. I want to say 16 is about the time a lot of sibkos go to their trial of position. I haven't really been up to date on this, so it is a guess.
Now for a question. Why was Cyril Ward still part of the military, as she was just as old as Natasha? They served together before Natasha went to the iS. It was suggested Natasha was a complete oddity, yet this would make it sound like she isn't. This is the person in the Ward family to commit suicide so Phelan could compete for her blood name. I can understand keeping the name until you die, but staying a warrior is much harder.
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Requiem
08/11/20 09:40 AM
1.158.133.26
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Blustering does not answer the question. When did the DC get a-hold of the Killer Whale missile design?
Comprehension of the above statements, in regards to an Alternate Non-Canon Universe, will provide the answer to this question.
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That is why a shadow organization such as ROM is used to police the ranks.
Yes I agree that ROM exists.
However, currently there are also many security organizations within many countries – have they been able curtail 100% of all espionage / whistle-blower activity in their respective countries ? The Answer is NO.
As stated previously there can never be a complete estoppel to carte-blanche …. All I need is one ….
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It is unlikely they will even live past a few days of sending the message.
And if the “message” is the person themselves and a copy of all the documents they have amassed? …. LOKI or ISF could have smuggled them off world during a routine resupply mission.
ComStar is not above having their Adepts going rogue … just as all security agencies cannot keep 100% of their agents from going rogue …
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Civilized? Yes. Morally acceptable? Not so much.
Consider the definition of Civilization, this can include all ancient civilizations ….
Consider the morality of the Star League to that of the Clan’s.
The humanist perspective of Confucius and Aristotle have been set aside to that of a society that promotes victimization by the one minority class upon the majority in the absence of any freedoms ….
How many cultures have promoted this belief and where are they all now ….their societies have fallen …. and in the majority of cases from within … Clan Society is operating on borrowed time!
Rather than an independent movement by the scientists against warriors a more plausible action would have been the scientists and others would send a delegation to the inner sphere requesting assistance in overthrowing their warrior overlords …. that, or Spartacus arises once more from the Dark Caste backed up with a military that even all the Clans would have difficulty in putting down …
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The real reason for Comstar being removed was circumstances.
And what I am proposing is so difficult ? So what will happen occur when multiple Houses discover that ComStar has betrayed them by supplying military information to the Clans in exchange for gaining administrative rights over these worlds?
a. Nothing – as they are too afraid of ComStar;
b. Have a quite word with ComStar and ask them nicely not to do it again;
c. Privatize the entire HPG Grid;
d. Enter into yet another shadow war with ROM;
e. Put ComStar on trial and demand restitution;
f. Other .
Just remember in answering as a House Lord their actions have caused the deaths and destruction of how many of your units and the subjugation of how many of your worlds and the citizens who live on them.
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So your are saying that if their lord says to forget an incident, then they are not to rush out and try to remove the entity that caused it?
In order to understand Takashi and Theodore decision to order the DCMS to retaliate or not to you must understand the issues
• Hohiro was captured by the Clans and placed in Kurushiiyama;
• Yakuza Oyabun assisted his escape;
• In response, the warship Sabre Cat raxed the city of Edo utilizing an orbital bombardment.
In so doing both Takashi and Theodore are now honor bound to retaliate – the dictums of Samurai Boshido, the principles of Face and the House Honor would demand swift and violent retribution ….
To do nothing would be seen not only as a loss of face, by both Takashi and Theordore, before the Warlords, Generals, soldiers and of the people themselves it would be seen as slap in the face by the Jaguars to the Draconis Combine as whole!
The retaliation of which would be multiple assassination attempts by Subhash Indrahar and the ISF, The DCMS Senior Officer Corps and in all likelihood the Black Dragon Society as they have now disgraced their Family and their position as Coordinator of the Draconis Combine due to the loss of Face by not ordering a retribution strike to preserve the Honor of the Draconis Combine.
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they did NOT have the forces to even attempt it.
And what are Kamikaze and Nuclear warheads ?
They are not a paradox … they are the only weapons allowed by TPTB at this stage in the game …. If my PT Dropships were allowed I would suggest utilizing these together with a big wing attack of aerospace fighters … if DC warships were allowed into the game at this stage I suggest these …. And yet TPTB have backed the DC into a corner … this is all that they have to regain their lost honor …
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Your statements of Samurai honor doesn't stay consistent.
Comprehension of what is written and interpretation of what is written ….
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…. but in the end the numbers were what put the Russians back into the war ….
Winter !
Also compare factory locations and bombing raids ….
Also compare the inside of a tiger as well as the availability of replacement parts to that of a T-34 as this explains a great deal as to why the Russians had numbers and the German’s didn’t.
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as it helps remove the family bonds that may cause issues.
The Clans Warriors of Kerensky No. 1709 Pg. 12 – Please explain ….
- the use of “The Coursing” and “Thamzing”
Definition of Coursing – the sport of hunting game animals such as hares (in this case people) with greyhounds using sight rather than scent;
Defintion of Thamzing – public humiliation and torture;
- “Nicholas Kerensky would do anything to ensure his new society’s survival. Brutal situations called for brutal measures. The individual – at least, the non-military individual – would be far less important than the clan”.
- “The sheer brutality of the postliberation months prompted some within the Clans to revise their opinions of Nicholas. While they agreed that the warlord should be punished, torture and degradation went against everything they stood for. They feared Nicholas would become another Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse-tung or Stefan Amaris ….”
- “Nicholas feared (probably correctly) that his grip on the Clans was slipping, and flexed his muscles as ilkhan against the main opposition to his authority: Clan Wolverine.”
And Pg. 9-10-11
- “… remodel society by removing cultural bias … based on merit and ability rather than parentage. It is ironic that his descendants revised his intentions, espousing the superiority of select bloodlines”.
- “Nicholas created the ultimate meritocracy … declaring … If there is no unity, nothing can be achieved”
- “Nicholas Kerensky’s most brutal act … destruction of family units … encouraging fostering …”
- (Though in my opinion the most brutal act was to strip every-one of their ancestral history …. An understanding of where they came from except for the warriors …. That of their family name … think about this .. we have now entered 1984, Brazil, Clockwork Orange, Faring-height 451 and now the Hand Maids Tale – a real dystopian society)
- All of this for … “in the hope that trueborn and freeborn would form a harmonious society with no divisions”.
What eventuated though with the emergence of the Clan eugenics program 2819 and then on …
Book 1st Somerset Strikers Pg. 43 note this was written August 13, 3050 “…. What I have seen of the Clans … proves that their entire society is inimical to all the values and traditions that we hold dear. They have no concept of freedom, individuality, or self-determination. They classify people …..with the most stratified and class-bound societies. The Clans divide people into five castes: warrior, scientist, merchant, technician, and labourer. Each caste is ranked according to its value to society, as the Clans understand value, placing the warrior caste at the top of the ladder and descending in order to the labourer caste. Though this system appears to have the virtue of assigning everyone a definite niche in life, in practice it devalues everyone outside the warrior caste. ….. the value of each caste is measured solely by the worth of its function to the warriors. The labourers, who attend to the day-to-day running of society, are regarded as little better than livestock …. The Jade Falcons believe that anyone born or placed into a given caste is by nature suited only to that caste and cannot possibly function anywhere else. ….. Such rigid thinking, with no concessions to individual wants and needs make a mockery of the ideal of freedom held up by the ancient Star League ….”
This is the Clans ….gene-supremacy; better living through superior gene manipulation – and to all else who are not gene forged, iron born …. What of them ? This is not the Star League Defense Force ….
Compare these Clansman to a true SLDF officer …. Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa ….. what is best for the League rather than what they believed the desires of their First Lord (or Khan) were …. And remember Kerensy was a Captain in the SLDF at this stage
It is quite evident that the Clansman of the future are in no way a resemblance of the SLDF of the past, the are more akin to that of Amaris and his ilk …. Though they are so blinkered they would never be able to admit it !
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
08/11/20 10:51 AM
173.247.25.195
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I'm onboard with waiting to use DNA until at least the Trial of Position as well. But clearly at least one author did not so its established in canon. Though it does wreck any statements made that cadets test out of the sibko into lower castes - it seems far more common that their gene-ancestors fail, and they are excluded as a consequence regardless of their own ability. Developers really need to clarify the process, as you can't have cadets borne solely of DNA from two Warriors, when its clear that non-Warriors (at least not-yet-Warriors) are being used in at least one example.
Regarding keeping name and Warrior rank until you die, its my understanding that Bloodnamed Warriors are effectively immune to being demoted to a lower caste. The reason for this is that the Clan Council is open to all the Bloodnamed. I don't think they'd allow members of lower castes to vote, so in practice (if not by law), any Bloodnamed Warrior remains so for the rest of their lives. This would include bondsmen from other Clans. They could be placed into abtahka or dezgra units though, or remain bondsmen and unassigned to a unit despite officially remaining a member of the Warrior caste. I can't cite any examples - it just seems like the natural thing to do. Perhaps Khans or ilKhans can enforce a demotion though, but it would likely be very rare (and frankly a Trial of Annihiliation followed by a Trial of Reaving may be a better option in most of these cases)
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ghostrider
08/11/20 12:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is the added issue of Comstar being quasi-religious, which makes it less likely anyone is going to work against the company. Also, those that might talk, would be restricted to what they could send across the HPG. It is perfect? Not in the least. But going from say someone in a crime sydicate, they are highly unlikely to reveal anything. The nature of advancement in the organization known as Comstar, would have their own co workers keeping an eye out for disloyal workers. It would be one of a very few ways they could advance within the company. Once you get to a certain level, politics is necessary to go further.
The lords of the DC are honor bound to do what they much to safeguard the realm. Sending out forces without any plans against something they still aren't sure how the can take it down, and would leave more then a few other worlds open to attack has to be considered over the suicidal charges that you are suggesting. And using nukes opens the door no one wants at this point. As the IS does not know if the clans will retaliate with nukes, or forget the batchall entirely and just bombard worlds, they had to avoid starting it. They did get revenge on the Jaguars, but it took years. The instant gratification is where problems really start.
Also, what you suggest would destroy any chance of gathering intel on the clans in general. As they also knew from other incidences on worlds, the clans would start wiping out communities if the assassinations came like you want them to.
And again. This concept should have happened during the first succession war. It didn't. So consistency is not there.
I will state it again. Get away from canon. You complain it will not let you have things that you want.
Given the fact that Sibkos start at 100 children and you are lucky if even 3 pass, there is a lot of failure from blood lines. I think an extremely lucky sibko was like 5 graduated. If the novels do any justice to what they go thru, it is amazing that any blood lines are still allowed.
The issue with keeping a military rank is having to go thru trials of position to maintain your rank. You would still keep the blood name from the stories told. Pershaw (not sure of spelling) was actually part of a solhema infantry unit when he was tapped to head the watch for the Falcons. So they are not as immune from punishment as it would seem. Unless the writer violated that taboo to write that part of the story.
Now here is something to ponder. The clans think suicide is cowardly, so Cyril killing herself might well be seen as her blood name being tarnished for doing so. The only real suicide the clans find honorable it dieing in combat, Yet even that needs to be seen as going down fighting, not just standing their to die.
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Requiem
08/11/20 08:11 PM
1.158.133.26
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The Clans espouse human superiority of select bloodlines that have been iron born …. All other humans are inferior and as such must be subservient their lot in life is being their slaves …. Clans view them not as people but objects !
This is why Clan society inimical to all the Great Houses, those who fight for freedom and the true values of the Star League.
There is but one recourse; genocide of the entire Clan way of life – and especially that of their belief in genetic superiority through select bloodlines.
Quote:
Regarding keeping name and Warrior rank until you die
Demotion is not the issue here. Clans are not only based on race superiority they are also ageist (something that every author within the Battletech universe conveniently forgets.) As soon as any warrior is viewed as obsolete to the Clan they serve – named or otherwise – they will ensure an ‘honorable’ death in combat so that their legacy is not tainted by remaining on the stage for an inappropriate time, reducing the fighting spirit of their Clan and dilute their genes reputation – and as a consequence decrease its use in future sibkos.
If a warrior cannot take the hint Clan society is predicated on the belief of youth – if viewed as too old and weak there will be a circle of equals to the death !
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Comstar being quasi-religious, which makes it less likely anyone is going to work against the order ….
Quasi is a far cry from a true religious order …
And yet how many, even in true religious orders, have broken from the order due to their unethical nature and breaking from the central tenants of their creed !
Remember Blake’s creed is based upon the premise of neutrality - “Our goals are peaceful. We seek the unity and prosperity of mankind.” Blake’s transmission, 28 June 2788.
How can any Acolyte believe that siding with the Clans, and their sociology of viewing people as objects, (Book 1st Somerset Strikers Pg. 43 note written August 13, 3050) is in any way respecting the creed of Blake ?
There will be a whistle-blower, it is inevitable …. ComStar will be required to answer for their actions ….
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The nature of advancement in the organization known as Comstar, would have their own co workers keeping an eye out for disloyal workers. It would be one of a very few ways they could advance within the company.
This may sound plausible, however, Human Resource Management Practices based upon the predicate of informing in order to obtain advancement is counter-productive to an efficient and effective workforce. Unfortunately it has the side affect of individuals actively working towards politicizing the workforce, conducting active scams to destroy those they do not like in order to achieve advancement, rather than doing their job …
Anyone who has studied Human Resource Management will tell you this doesn’t work in a large organization whose primary role is efficiency and effectiveness in the workforce.
Workforce politics is based upon nepotism and the value you derive for the organization you work for – what do you bring to the organization that will derive sales …. Profit maximization ….
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Sending out forces without any plans against something they still aren't sure how the can take it down, and would leave more then a few other worlds open to attack has to be considered over the suicidal charges that you are suggesting.
First, there is a plan;
Second, how are you leaving worlds open when you are just using older more experienced pilots who volunteer, aerospace fighters and nukes?
Third, the demonstration of the will of the DCMS against the Clans through the use of Nuclear ordinance WILL cause all the Clans to pause and require a Grand Kurultai (Council) of all invading Khans and sa-Khans ….as to their response …
Lastly, there is clearly a lack of understanding Samurai, Bushido, The concept of Face …
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the clans would start wiping out communities if the assassinations came like you want them to.
How did this work for the Germans in any of the countries they invaded ? Didn’t work then wouldn’t work in the future …. Especially if they Clans decide to take children as per their misguided idea of fostering !
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And again. This concept should have happened during the first succession war. It didn't. So consistency is not there.
And yet any ultra Japanese society based upon their ancient values should have also followed these tenants – again a lack of understanding / research – if Samurai are brought into the game then these should also be a vast document as to what it means to be, their code of conduct, to be a Samurai, a Daimyo, a Retainer, even Shogun ….. even suggesting viewing multiple Akira Kurosawa films should have been considered ….
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Given the fact that Sibkos start at 100 children and you are lucky if even 3 pass, there is a lot of failure from blood lines. I think an extremely lucky sibko was like 5 graduated.
Thus the writers violated their own rules, how can the Clans survive in the IS given such a minimal replacement personnel – assassination / attrition warfare?
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the watch
Inability to blend into your environment leads to but one end ……
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The clans think suicide is cowardly
Research required on the title of Bondsref…… https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bondsman
A warrior whose personal honor would not allow them to serve as a bondsman could avoid this fate through ritual suicide known as a bondsref. Prior to being claimed by the victor and given a bondcord, a warrior could take their own life or have an accomplice kill them and so "refuse the bond."
And yes as part of a Solhama unit ….. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Solahma
….. aging warriors can serve their Clan to the bitter end, dying in combat - a death considered far more appropriate and honorable than dying in bed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/11/20 10:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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Genocide is a good concept? And you say WMD are horrible and need to pulled out of the game?
Part of the reason the Wolves started siding with the Crusaders is the fact that more blood named were getting up in age. Not necessarily because of pulled strings, but because they were able to keep passing the trial of position, unlike one of the Jade Falcon leaders that Vlad wiped out. To my knowledge Natasha's bloodname was never filled while she was in the IS, nor when she returned to the clans. So age does not affect holding a blood name. Military rank is more likely to be affected by age, but as long as you can keep beating those that suggest you are weak, then you continue in the military.
Get real. Blake had no intent of Comstar being neutral as he pushed to have all the houses destroyed so his vision was the only thing that survived. He only put on a false fact to keep from being wiped out during the opening of the succession wars. He sought unity like the clans do. One ruler, and all others follow the dictator. For a while, the clans were better in that concept, as it wasn't politics that gave you that position nor would you be safe because combat was always used for advancement and position.
Do you understand that the regular workers in Comstar was under the belief that they were only working with the clans to keep populations safe? They were not part of the group that was working with the clans to destroy the IS. Much like government and businesses today. They say one thing and work against it in private.
Hmmm. Older equipment tended to be use by the militia, which guarded more worlds combined then the DCMS regular line units? The equipment to get them into battle was more valuable moving around the best tech and skilled pilots to counter the other advances? Oh yeah. That requires more comprehensive understanding of tactics then just grouping everything in one large unit and going from there. You may not believe this, but even then, you can lose, and lose big time.
And there was a plan? You said they needed to head out and hit the Jaguars as soon as possible, since honor was at stake. That generally means no real plan, just reaction in waves.
What happened with Germany isn't the same thing. Germany didn't have something that would wipe out any of your transports without much threatening them back. Also, the IS did not KNOW what reserves that clans actually had with them. The Dragoon meeting would only tell them how the clans operated before they stopped reporting to them. They were NOT part of the planning to actually launching the invasion. For all the Dragoon's knew, all the clans were involved.
Go back and read where the DCMS was based on the Samurai. Based on. Not the exact model of it. That means they could change it as they wanted to. So until they say it is the exact same thing, the complaint that the DC does not follow your concepts is invalid. This is not suggesting the alt, but ripping on canon. No way to spin this so it isn't.
Another showing that you have no idea on how the game actually is set up. The clans do not constantly war with each other so they replace half their warriors a year. They do NOT make one sibko a year. But for some reason, you think they do. How about making 100 sibkos a year, and that would mean an average of 300 trueborns becoming warriors a year. And claiming bondsmen helps keep the numbers up for the winning clan. I do think they had a limit on how many sibkos can be done, as attrition is why a few clans were destroyed, normally absorbsion. And this is only for the clans that don't accept freeborns into their military.
Dying in a fight, verses just bleeding your self out in the tube is far from each other. But this is part of why understanding the game is soo difficult. Not much in the game is that rigid, where it is one way or the opposite. There are many shades of grey that are in there.
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Requiem
08/12/20 10:05 AM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
Genocide is a good concept?
Comprehension or a too advanced topic ? Sorry, will attempt to make writing concise ….
Original Quote:
“… genocide of the entire Clan way of life – and especially that of their belief in genetic superiority through select bloodlines.”
This is eluding to “cultural genocide” – which involves the eradication and destruction of all Clan Cultural artifacts (books, symbols, statues, artworks, structures etc.), and the suppression of cultural activities that do not conform to the destroyer’s notion of what is appropriate ….
Thus …
The eradication of their identity as a Clan as a distinct peoples, their cultural values and ethnic identities; and
Ensure their assimilation and integration back into the Star League culture and way of life – imposed by legislative, administrative or other measures such as propaganda directed towards them….
This does not include …
Dispossessing them of their lands or resources; or
Violating their human rights;
Example – Germany – post surrender to Allied forces by removing everything that related to the previous administration and ensuring an education system that takes responsibility for their past crimes and ensuring that certain irregularities, such as the idea of the super human through gene manipulation, is eradicated for all time.
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….. but as long as you can keep beating those that suggest you are weak, then you continue in the military.
Natasha Kerensky https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Natasha_Kerensky
Born 2973
Returned to Clans 3050 at the age of 77 years.
Can anyone explain how a 77 year old can defeat a 20 something when taking into account her decline in the metabolism and nervous systems … this includes issues with ….
• Heart rate;
• Bones becoming thinner and less strong;
• Joints becoming stiffer and less flexible;
• Cartilage and bone joints start to weaken;
• Muscle tissue reduces – strength reduces;
• The number of nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord decreases;
• Eyes become less clear and eardrums get thicker; and
• Sweat glands produce less sweat – problem when you push the heat of your Mech as blackout would occur.
So unless Natasha has access to the fountain of youth this appears to be somewhat difficult to believe.
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Blake had no intent of Comstar being neutral as he pushed to have all the houses destroyed so his vision was the only thing that survived.
Question: Who was to destroy all the Great Houses?
Answer: The Great Houses themselves.
Question: What was Comstar’s remit whilst the Great Houses destroyed themselves?
Answer: Absolutely nothing – they were to retain in a position of neutrality until the day the Great Houses had beaten each other back into the stone age.
Question: Why and what next?
Answer: Once all the houses had beaten themselves silly Comstar could ride out like the knights of old and restore the Star League under a Blakean Theocracy – people would see them as liberators and saviors – the idea of minimal backlash from a defending army is also noted,
Thus the overall plan was always based upon a long term stand of neutrality; until such a time as there was no opposition.
So, how is helping a technologically superior military going to achieve the overall result of establishing the master plan of a Blakean Theocracy ? Especially when it is quite evident that from their initial contact that the Clans sociology is based upon genetic superiority and all others are to be treated as little better than slaves ? That is they will try to make slaves of ComStar ! At this stage the idea that Comstar is in a winning position by assisting the Clans is beyond ludicrous !
The only way ComStar can come out of this invasion is if they assist the Great Houses to Defeat the Clans and the only way this can occur is if the Great Houses and the ComStar re-establish the Star League and the SLDF ?
This is clearly a positive-sum game – each participant’s gain through the destruction of the Clans ….
This is why the current administration should be removed by those who have a more rational perspective of what is going on …
Quote:
Do you understand that the regular workers in Comstar was under the belief that they were only working with the clans to keep populations safe?
Question: Please explain why a society based upon Military and Genetic superiority, such as the Clans, who believe that due to their genetic superiority they are the only people who are allowed to rule would allow ComStar to administer their worlds unless they too are recognized as slaves of the Clan Overlords ?
This is again Rome and Roman Legions and the indigenous people they have conquered.
Thus there is a disparity / disconnect in their actions and reality – why ? If asked why - what would the average Clan Warrior say ?
They would have no reason to lie – they would say that ComStar and the Clans have come to an understanding …
They (those within the Clan OZ) would also have received a message from Terra explain the situation as to why they are administering these worlds on behalf of the Clans … it is clear this is not a Humanitarian venture …. ComStar has become a Vichy Government upon these worlds within the Clan OZ – so how did that work out ?
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And there was a plan? You said they needed to head out and hit the Jaguars as soon as possible, since honor was at stake. That generally means no real plan, just reaction in waves.
There is another Forum in regards to this topic as well as basic Military Contingency Theory would say otherwise.
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What happened with Germany isn't the same thing. Germany didn't have something that would wipe out any of your transports without much threatening them back.
So, let me get this, clan warriors are the only ones to ever leave their base of operations and they never ever get out of their Mechs and Elemental Suits to issue directives etc ?
They never utilize on world transport under any circumstances
And they never wander around their base out in the open for anyone to see them – they remained confined to their buildings at all time.
The similarity is accurate,
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the IS did not KNOW what reserves that clans actually had with them …
So most people in the Inner Sphere are illiterate and they cannot observe and count the forces on their own world ?
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The Dragoon meeting would only tell them how the clans operated before they stopped reporting to them. They were NOT part of the planning to actually launching the invasion. For all the Dragoon's knew, all the clans were involved.
So the Dragoons never watched CMM and all other news agencies that discussed the invasion for the past how many months, and they were quite incapable of identifying the number of invading Clans even when the news readers identified them by name ?
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Go back and read where the DCMS was based on the Samurai. Based on. Not the exact model of it.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bushido
No. even canon has writings on the subject ….
They just need to be way more comprehensive to understand the finer points ….
There are seven virtues for the code: as provided by the Sarna are ….
• Rectitude (morally correct behavior or thinking; righteousness)
• Courage
• Benevolence
• Respect
• Honesty
• Honor
• Loyalty
However, if we go to the Naso Satomi’s Hakkenden we have the virtues that all samurai should possess.
• Loyalty – Dosetsu *
• Filial Devotion & Piety– Shino
• Duty & Obligation – Sosuke *
• Faith – Genpachi
• Brotherly Affection –Kobungo
• Sympathy & Benevolence – Dihatche
• Proper Form & Courtesy – Daikaku
• Wisdom – Keno
Just note * indicates that they switched their positions during the story ….
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Thus the writers violated their own rules, how can the Clans survive in the IS given such a minimal replacement personnel – assassination / attrition warfare?
Question: how did you get “The clans do not constantly war with each other so they replace half their warriors a year.” From the above quote ?
Question: If the Clans can create 300 new warriors from sibkos each year how many can Inner sphere assassins and front line forces kill in a year of fighting ? and how often do these replacements arrive within the Inner Sphere to fill the gaps from those that have been killed in battle – especially when it takes six months to travel time ?
Also remember to increase the number of sibkos each clan has at any one period of time will take anywhere between 18 -20 years depending on when each clan holds their graduation to become a warrior so the number of replacement personnel must be fairly constant unless corners are cut and an order is given to allow more through the program than would normally have been allowed – thus diluting their warrior pool with substandard warriors.
Or they allow more freeborn personnel into the warrior program to make up for all the trueborn that have been killed off in the Inner Sphere.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/12/20 02:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is a huge flaw in your analysis of Natasha. Where the physical decline would work had she gotten into a fist fight with them, piloting a mech is not as limiting. Experience does make up a huge part of being a better pilot, as you can anticipate to a degree, what the enemy will do. The clans are a bit easier to anticipate then an IS warrior, as the clans tend to stick to one general method of fighting. They tend to ignore jump jets before the invasion is one such thing. A lot of mech sensors can be tuned to cover things like eyesight decline as well as hearing. Some one from Snord's Irregulars (Shakes I believe) put that theory forward.
And with this, the decline for everyone is not the same. There are more then a few in their 70's that are in better shape then most in their 20's. It isn't anywhere near normal, but it does happen. GIven Natasha kept up her fighting form, this is likely the case.
Also, you are dealing with genetic manipulation within the clans. It is very possible they hit a good combination within her.
Comstar was trying to get the houses to destroy themselves. The fact the only way that could be accomplished is if they destroyed each other in war. With this, it is possible the succession wars were encouraged to rage to allow this to happen, verses the possibility of the house lord to sit down and agree to end it peacefully. So chew on that conspiracy for a while.
And with the idea of neutrality, how many times did they favor one house or another? Almost consistently during the time they were around.
You really haven't got a clue on what Comstar actually knew about the clans. Waterly was not really based as much in reality as you would think. She had absolutely no clue on just how many forces the clans had, as the only forces they would probably admit to is what was in the IS. She also believe the clans to be easy for her to manipulate and constantly cause all sides to grind down each other, until her 'superior' forces could take them all out. Until she learned they were after Terra alone, she was going to spread them out all across the IS in order to weaken them while destroyed the others. Anyone that has actually read the print can see this.
Now this is a bit funny and sad. The workers of Comstar believed their organization was the guiding light of the universe, and when the clans allowed them to continue their jobs and increase their influence to the oppressed on the worlds the clans took, only made them think this was a divine right. It may also have gave them the idea that they could 'civilize' the clans, by showing them the divine light of Blake. Most of those on clan occupied worlds were probably scared that they too were going to join the masses in becoming the servants of the clans for a while. Comstar did run into the Clans in the periphery, where they do have some HPGs. Yet that fact never was made public.
Do you think the average clanner knew Comstar and their leadership had a tight agreement? Most would only know their leaders said don't mess with Comstar. They were not going to be let into the loop as they didn't need to know the full details. Just follow orders. Things like this make me wonder just how much you understand politics and the double talk game of getting a head by lying to all.
It didn't say otherwise. It said that they were to pull resources out of thin air, start off nukes being used, as you did not like the fact the IS didn't have warships, and projected more non existing things into the 'only viable solution' to the problem. Then the argument turned around when suggested if the DC followed this, then they would never have made it into the 3050s as an entity, as they woudl have fallen in the succession wars. That was something that meant the continuity was against rendered asunder, as it removes the entire equation from the game.
Clan leaders only used clan transports, and had clan guards around them. One of only a few times the leaders got into a situation that their guards might not be able to handle, was when Ulric visited the one sight that Phelan took down Evantha and the mech warrior beating on the old man that approached. And that does not negate the fact that the clans could shut down worlds by destroyed any ships coming in or out of the world. Something Germany never had the ability to do. And all worlds were importing and exporting things. Remove that from their abilities and you stop a lot of things. Some of it was needed, such as food and water.
Count the number of units on their world? You do realize how dumb that statement becomes when you put real life logic to it? Say you live in New Zealand. How many forces are spread across Europe? Africa? The Americas? How many can you count from New Zealand? IF, and this is a big IF, you had others on those continents that could count them all, not just a few cities, then you MIGHT get an idea. But even during the height of the SL, locals did not have an accurate account of how many forces are on world. This is a big part of why raids failed. The enemy occupies worlds of yours, and locals say how many units they see, only to find out they missed even battalions of units. But then you are under the belief that everyone has full access to private transport, as well as radios that can't be monitored or found, except when it is the enemy doing so.
And then you have to ignore the fact that normal people would turn in those even attempting to do so, without realizing the clans would NOT reward them, like a normal enemy would. The IS did not know how the clans operated.
How small is the world? 5 miles? 10?
What did CMM say about the VIpers and Nova Cats? Oh yeah. They found out about them when the Cats hit Lutien with the Jaguars. And that is not saying that other clans were not poised to hit in other locations around the IS. Nor does that have any information on them being readied for another wave. And lastly, that information, if it could be sent to worlds outside of clan influence, was for the intel and leaders. It would not be openly broadcast to everyone in the march, as it would destroy morale to find out that nothing your government has done, has done more then caused the invaders to blink. So yet another hole opens up in the perfect counter to canon.
The only thing the Dragoons had going for them over some other units was Wolfnet. And even that was probably not enough to bypass clan protocols.
You mean canon defined their version of Bushido and you say it doesn't work? The vision canon uses doesn't work because someone else says it is different? So who's version for the game is right? The ones the developers said was being followed? Or someone else's version that doesn't have anything to do with the game?
You watch too many assassination movies. You do not just walk up to an enemy and slit their throats in front of crowds. It just doesn't happen. And using explosives isn't a good way either. You tend to get your own people that was as well, and they normally suffer when the enemy retaliates. They will only put up with so much before their own survival comes first. And how many assassins are even around? Oh yeah. The non existant streams of them in every city. Just killing someone isn't assassination. Making it look like it was an accident takes real talent. Murder is where you just stab someone. Most of what the IS has done against the clans were terrorists. Open violence that may or may not have killed some enemies.
The example of how many warriors the clans replace in a year was to show that the clans did NOT understand just how many replacements were going to be needed. They were set up for normal clan attrition. Nothing in there said that they would not run low on warriors had the IS actually caused the attrition they should have. The numbers they could replace is not the issue, but how many reserves they had until that showed up is. And that was a specific weakness built into the 'favored' clans. The war would not have lasted until all the IS was taken. The clans did not have the warriors to do so. Now had the clans done the 1st succession war tactics and destroyed the jumpship production, then they could have taken their time. So their honor system was designed to 'favor' them yet again. NOT! The clans had the ability to make jumpships and warships. That was not necessary for them to avoid wiping out the IS production. It would have sped up the IS falling had they done so. Even without destroying the facilities, they could have damaged them so they were useless, especially if they could keep them from being fixed. So yeah. The clans were favored.
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Requiem
08/12/20 09:12 PM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
There is a huge flaw in your analysis of Natasha. Where the physical decline would work had she gotten into a fist fight with them, piloting a mech is not as limiting. Experience does make up a huge part of being a better pilot ….
For this to be accurate there should be a World Series Video Game Tournament winner who is over a senior citizen – Pong ’72; Pacman ’80 …. All experience to win today’s computer games …..
As anticipated with the ravages of time the human body …
• Lower reaction time due to both muscle tissue, cartilage and decreased nerve receptors;
• Lower strength in moving the control panel;
• Lower eye sight, less hearing perception;
• Body tolerance to heat has been reduced
• Heat rate will take longer to return to normal if placed under stress;
Quote:
There are more then a few in their 70's that are in better shape then most in their 20's
Please indicate the sport’s woman / man who can compete with a twenty something.
Genetic modification cannot slow the ravages of time – cellular degradation and viability.
Quote:
And with the idea of neutrality, how many times did they favor one house or another? Almost consistently during the time they were around.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Myndo_Waterly
Please do explain, at that time, Precenter of Dieron Myndo Waterly’s ….
Reaction to the signing of the Federated-Commonwealth Alliance Document; and
“Despite breaching THE FIRST CIRCUIT'S STRICT NON-INTERVENTION POLICY, Waterly was exonerated in the excommunication trial held to decide her fate. “
Quote:
You really haven't got a clue on what Comstar actually knew about the clans.
Can I laugh now ?
• Reports from Adepts on the Ground from any world conquered by the Clans;
• Anastasius Focht’s personal interaction as envoy to the Clans where he recognized the threat of the Clans;
• Focht’s retinue that went with him as his staff;
As for maintaining a leader who is out of touch with reality, in such a dangerous situation this is where the First Circuit would remove and replace Waterly ….
ComStar is not the same as that of a Great House the ComStar Civil War 2901 – 2902 in removing Primus Dwight Kurstin …. Proves the point that in a time emergency the First Circuit is more than willing to remove the Primus for the security of ComStar …. The organization is more important than the person in the top job …
Again this is a positive sum game ! ComStar cannot manipulate or control any of the Clans. Their society has demonstrated that they are zealots to their cause, their treatment of those they have conquered demonstrates that they view people as objects ….
There is but one rational choice …. Re-establish the Star League and the Star League Defense Force and war to the death of one or the other’s complete way of life ….
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Do you think the average clanner knew Comstar and their leadership had a tight agreement?
How else could they enforce the il-Khans agreement to allow ComStar to administer worlds if they did not understand the agreement ? and just following orders produces limited results … when a soldier understands the overall objectives you obtain better results.
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And that does not negate the fact that the clans could shut down worlds by destroyed any ships coming in or out of the world.
Number of worlds conquered versus the number of warships available would say otherwise ….
Then there is the issue of Big wing strike groups ….
Then there is the issue of PT drop-ship strike craft ….
As for Germany …. Look at the number of bombers that were shot down
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How many forces are spread across Europe? Africa? The Americas?
So no one lives in Europe, Africa or the Americas who could watch the Clans and count the number of Mechs / Elementals and Fighters they have ?
Quote:
This is a big part of why raids failed. The enemy occupies worlds of yours, and locals say how many units they see, only to find out they missed even battalions of units.
Operation Market Garden – A Bridge too far – the reverse is also true …. Partisan units told the regular units and the information was dismissed because of hubris pride.
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But then you are under the belief that everyone has full access to private transport, as well as radios that can't be monitored or found, except when it is the enemy doing so.
First, how many people in today’s society do not have access to any form of transport;
Second, how many super computers did the clans bring with them that are contacted to the communication grid and are geared to word search engines that can then copy and sent to massive amounts of logs to call centre operations (with massive amount of people) who can then individually listen to and interpret conversations for acts of illegal behavior ?
Consider the number of text messages alone that are sent in a single day ?
Sorry but this suggestion has just become too impractical to enforce
And then there are also old school methods of cells and dead letter drops to contend with …
The watch doesn’t have the numbers to contend with the numbers ….
Again the Clans do not have the populations to enforce any serious garrison policy on any world with a reasonable sized population.
As for quislings – how long do they usually last in war zone – especially if you have been brought up on a border world ? And how many of them will actually sell out their neighbor ? This depends upon the socioeconomic status of the world and the morality of the people on that world as well as the enforcement agencies on that world willing to obey their new Clan overlords.
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What did CMM say about the VIpers and Nova Cats? Oh yeah. They found out about them when the Cats hit Lutien with the Jaguars.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Steel_Viper
Clan Steel Vipers - including garrisoning worlds conquered by the Ghost Bears during the third wave of the invasion (June-July 3050);
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Nova_Cat
Clan Nova Cat - the observers were allowed to participate in minor actions during this phase of the invasion;
Clan Nova Cat was chosen to be the escort to the ComStar ambassador Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht, transporting him to the Clan flagship Dire Wolf via the True Vision;
Thus they knew of their existence …. And wouldn’t the Dragoons also explain the level of their forces would be comparable with that of the other Clans involved in the Invasion ….. and they would also explain the total number of Clans within the Clan Home worlds and this is only one third of the total ?
And as such wouldn’t a normal leader upon hearing this information wouldn’t you be preparing for the introduction of two more Clans – and even the possibility of even more Clans - by introducing conscription, moving your economy to a total war footing – increasing production output at every military industrial complex etc. ? Remember at this stage any true leader must prepare for the worst, so do explain how any of the leaders of the Inner Sphere at that point in time when they are told the true strength of ALL the clans doesn’t institute a Total War Economic and Social Shift as did all countries during WW2.
Sorry but it just cannot be done ! At this point in time this is the only logical cause for the Leaders of the Inner Sphere to take – by taking the approach that we will deal with the problem right in front of our face whilst ignoring the fact that there is an even larger force out there is beyond ludicrous once more ….
At this point in time the entire Inner Sphere would shift to a Total war footing – best example – Roughnecks fighting the bugs and their society shift …
As for wolfnet how vast could it have been in comparison to any House Internal Security Force …
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You mean canon defined their version of Bushido and you say it doesn't work?
It does not work in the game because there is virtually no understanding as to many of the subtle nuances and I have yet to see an example of understanding as to the concept of Face in the game …
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You watch too many assassination movies.
Research ….
the number of assassination’s attempted and carried out during the 20th Century ….
recent IED activity in modern warfare and Vietnam
terrorism within the latter half of the 20th Century ….
And as stated before look at the statistics of partisan activity per unit capita during WW2 – your non-existent people just became a vast resistance army at approximately 8% of the population (if I remember correctly).
As for making it look like an accident, in war such niceties are not observed …
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The example of how many warriors the clans replace in a year was to show that the clans did NOT understand just how many replacements were going to be needed.
When it takes 20 years to rectify this problem without diluting the warrior gene pool or introducing more freeborn warriors the clans WILL find themselves in a dire situation quickly as to replacement personnel – this is a FACT it is not something that can be ignored unless the game is rigged ….
Normal Clan attrition is a very far cry from Inner Sphere Attrition when the war shifts to attrition based warfare ….
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Now had the clans done the 1st succession war tactics and destroyed the jumpship production, then they could have taken their time
Remember the Clans must adhere to their societal values the same way that the Draconis Combine Samurai must adhere to their values .. this is why the back story as well as sociology is so important when it comes to understanding characters from different societies ….. in order to explain why they do what they do to underpin the games core character beliefs …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/12/20 10:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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Laugh all you want. Just explain how Comstar found out Terra was their ultimate target? How other clans were activated and allowed into the IS to help with the invasion. How many ships the clans actually had and used in the entire operation, including those along the invasion route from the home worlds to and in the IS. How many warriors a year they could produce. How many machines they could replace in a given month. So no. Comstar didn't know as much about the clans as they believed. The fact that if Ulric had not become and retained the Ilkhan position, Comstar would have been removed from having any influence what so ever. Especially after operation Scorpion.
Now with the second part, do you know what sort of hold Walterly had over the others in the first circuit? Blackmail or promises that kept the others in line? The sheer fact they went along with her when dealing with the clans like they did, would keep a few from trying to expose any of that information.
This does not even go into how much control or how fanatical ROM was to Walterly. It is very probably they knew she would remove them if they provided any reason to believe they would betray her. In the end, her fanatical belief that she was the ultimate saviour of the IS and Comstar that she turned her back on Focht that provided the chance from him to execute her.
How else would a military entity that pushes for obeying superiors would allow the soldiers to follow simple orders to allow comstar to operate? Is that really the question to the response of the clan warriors not knowing how deep the clan leaders were cooperating with Comstar? And with this, would the leaders even want the rank and file to know how much they relied on comstar data for the invasions and to keep it from being known to the rest of the IS?
No thought what so ever seems to have gone into the answer. So keep believing you are not opening up massive logic holes. It makes it easy to point out flaws in the perfect solution.
How many warships did the IS know the clans had? Or where they were at? Or even each clan. Alls it would take is just one warship to destroy a world by keeping out ships. It might not be quick, but it would be devastating.
Oh yeah. The IS knew of every last detail of the clans from the moment they invaded, until Task Force Serpent fought the refusal battle on Strana Mechty. I forgot. You argue canon is wrong, yet throw in alt to show how wrong it is.
How many people have popped out in order to accurate count units spread across a world? And still remain in contact? Magic is not part of Battletech. Telepathy is not part of Battletech. You suggest that a single burst could be found instantly, yet this suggests they would never be found to show where agents trying to talk to others on opposite sides of the planet. News flash. About a third of the way around the world, lasers do not work. The horizon blocks the straight line communications so you need relays. Who owns them? The enemy. And this is even saying that there are that many people trying to contact each other with intel. The same people may well be enemy counteragents, which the clans would not have, but comstar would. So yeah. Everyone knew exactly what units were where and where they stood on Omi eating advocado toast.
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ghostrider
08/12/20 11:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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So that means even with the exact numbers, the enemy's units are not really accounted for? Wow. So that makes it even more unlikely to get an accurate count on what units are where. The intel department doesn't believe those reports.
Having a bicycle to go across the U.S. is not going to work in a timely manor. And with this, do you think the clans would continue to allow the internet on worlds to run without major restrictions? They would shut them down, as that sort of luxury is not allowed to any outside of the warrior class, except the clan support castes, like scientist and merchants?
Underestimating what fear does to people again. Selling out, and just obeying out of fear is not necessarily the same thing. Law enforcement would keep enforcing the laws, even with an enemy ruler in place. They may not enforce everything, but in order to keep the population from being purged for the hell of it, they do keep things going as well as they can. And a war zone isn't the same thing as a full occupation where you have NO outside help you can rely on. Another flaw in the perfect concept. There is only so much you can do without outside help in most situations like this. Something that all the history of humanity on Terra has never dealt with. The fact that on earth, you can reach everywhere with some sort of transportation. Space and light years difference removes most of that.
Ok. So the news networks had telepaths that could read the minds of the clans now? When were they asked to be there when anything the clans did was performed?
Given the clans nature to resist each other, the concept of more clans working within the area of another clan would be seen as meer mercs, as the IS did not really understand the concept of mercs were hated by the clans. And without the Dragoons intel, there is no real way of knowing they were not simply another galaxy of troops from the clan. Much like RCTs scattered across one of the nations.
And that still doesn't answer when the news would have found out there were more clans coming in. Also, it was the Falcons that had the Vipers tied to them. Having something happen in the FRR would not be taken as honest fact in the FC or DC.
And this is even IF comstar was not actively stiffling those reports. Which we knew they were. ANY intel was being filtered.
The game defines the use of concepts, but it doesn't work? What is wrong with that logic? The game says it does this, yet you are saying it doesn't? You are missing facts here, and this explains why there is no understanding how it operates. Adding in your own definition does NOT change the way the game sees it. They spell out their vision of it. Not sure why this fact is hard to understand.
Funny about the reference to Starship Troopers. Comstar was much like the Sky Marshal in the fact they were actively fighting for the enemy. They allowed the enemy to advance thru their own interference.
Wolfnet does not have the be larger then house intel, but better equipped. Automated surviellance can be done with the right program. Not completely catching it all, but moreso then having a live body being required at each instance.
As you said it yourself. There is no data on what or how many units the clans lost during the invasion. So the statement of not having enough reserves is inaccurate. How many deaths or maimings happened to need to replace a warrior? Your putting in numbers that don't exist again, and saying it is fact. Sheer numbers would say there had to be some deaths, yet just how many? How many spent a few months in a medbay, then returned to duty? Supposition here is not helping your cause.
Must adhere? Really? The clans must adhere to the Ares Convention, which they were not part of, and can not use their own tactics to reduce the IS's numbers advantage? These are the same traditions that suggest you do not strike out of the darkness and keep your assaults a secret from all? You rely on a foreign agency to get you intel on an enemy so you can attack them without getting a response back from the traditional batchall?
And yet this is saying that every warrior actually goes along with the concepts of the majority of the nation. Which we know isn't true. The clans can very much destroy the IS ship yards and still adhere to their own traditions. They can rebuild them. It does fly in the face of hating waste, but that hasn't stopped them before. Once the IS started the 'dishonorable' tactics they use, it would cause the clans to see they do not deserve respect, like some of the Falcons had already said about them.
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Requiem
08/13/20 09:35 AM
1.158.133.26
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Just explain how Comstar found out Terra was their ultimate target?
Take one Star League Map and draw a line indicating the direction of each subsequent wave.
As the projection of their invasion route is linear extrapolate the invasion route out as far as possible.
Then identify all important worlds along their invasion route ….
And what world do find when extrapolating their invasion route …… Terra
How difficult is it to understand when the Clans are invading in a straight line from one wave to the next and believe their heritage was once that of the SLDF …
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So no. Comstar didn't know as much about the clans as they believed.
When Focht was accepted as an ambassador of ComStar by the Clans il-Khan what small talk did they discuss whilst attempting to form a rapprochement ?
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operation Scorpion.
Only becomes an eventuality if Walterly is still in charge of ComStar.
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you know what sort of hold Walterly had over the others in the first circuit? Blackmail or promises that kept the others in line?
You know that for anyone in the first circuit to get a promotion Walterly has to go …. Lady Macbeth goads her husband into?
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How else would a military entity that pushes for obeying superiors would allow the soldiers to follow simple orders to allow ComStar to operate?
Understanding the mission objectives by implementing full disclosure – otherwise you will have cultural dissonance – that is when two people of different cultures attempt to communicate but due to a lack of understanding this subsequently results in a cultural problem …. And given that one of the parties is a Clan Warrior the result probably would be the death of the ComStar Acolyte …. Not a good situation to be in if you are attempting form a harmonious relationship!
Suggest reading International Business articles on the subject.
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How many warships did the IS know the clans had? Or where they were at? Or even each clan. Alls it would take is just one warship to destroy a world by keeping out ships. It might not be quick, but it would be devastating.
Versus an aerospace fighter with a nuke? ….. warships are just ‘that’ dangerous ….. despite what the canon rules clam for their jumped up firecrackers, a near miss will still convert the majority of the ship to gaseous particles when considering the thermal temperature of a nuke ….
Then there is the second issue of Clan tradition that negates the entire idea of Warships becoming a danger to the Inner Sphere. So unless the Clans abandon all their traditions the idea of warships becoming an issue is next to nil.
Then there is the Inner Spheres ability to manufacture pocket warships – considering the imbalance of technological resources due to population the Clans will have a problem given enough time …
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Oh yeah. The IS knew of every last detail of the clans from the moment they invaded, until Task Force Serpent fought the refusal battle on Strana Mechty
Isn’t this why you have an intelligence operations unit as well as a dedicated reconnaissance unit ?
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How many people have popped out in order to accurate count units spread across a world? And still remain in contact?
How many bases are established in the middle of no-where? And How many bases are established next to major population settlements in order to keep “the natives in line”?
Second how many people are upon the majority of all Inner Sphere Worlds ? Thus making the idea of vast empty areas of land quite difficult to believe …
Third how efficient would a communication system in 3050 be when compared to the level of technology that we have today?
Fourth considering the number of secret wars every House have been in against Comstar wouldn’t it be prudent to mass produce Black Box technology in the event ComStar once again flicked the switch and turned off the HPG grid? Or doesn’t your universe believe in contingency theory?
And it’s not avocado toast it is Miso soup, rice and salmon …. I thought that was basic intelligence?
So that means the intelligence department has a high degree of accuracy when it comes to Clan Intelligence as more and more garrisons are raided and taken and more information is collected from a variety of sources that culminate in a fairly accurate picture of the Clans TO&E and replacement schedule ….
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Having a bicycle to go across the U.S. is not going to work in a timely manor.
Ask Nancy Wake, the White Mouse …. WW2 French Resistance and later SOE …
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And with this, do you think the clans would continue to allow the internet on worlds to run without major restrictions?
Then what’s the point of having a dark web and on top of that were is the Clans military electronics counter measure corps?, last I looked they never formed this dedicated military unit, as well as a psy-ops unit, counter terrorism unit etc etc
Where as within the IS this would have become Standard Operating Procedure ….
By forming the Clans as is their entire Military specialist sub units no longer exist – whereas within the Inner Sphere they remain as is ….
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Underestimating what fear does to people again. Selling out, and just obeying out of fear is not necessarily the same thing. Law enforcement would keep enforcing the laws, even with an enemy ruler in place.
How did that work out throughout all of history?
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And a war zone isn't the same thing as a full occupation where you have NO outside help you can rely on.
Isn’t this why the SOE was formed in the past and still exists today via arms merchants / agency spies?
And in the far future they would still have a unit funneling arms to resistance groups for the express purpose of tying down units assigned to hunting them down.
Yes there is only so much you can do without outside help – this is why there is a dedicated team attached to intelligence agencies for the express purpose of assisting these terrorist units.
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Ok. So the news networks had telepaths that could read the minds of the clans now?
Embedded reporters – remember those people in the Jihad Era attached to military units ….
Military reports by the Archon to a gaggle of reports as to the state of the war …
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Comstar was much like the Sky Marshal in the fact they were actively fighting for the enemy.
Where did this occur – Book, Film or Anime and which episode ?
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Wolfnet does not have the be larger then house intel, but better equipped.
Really …. Remember the population difference between the two and how you are going to use a small number of individuals upon an incredibly vast number of worlds is going to limit wolfnets operational efficiency.
Also how great is automated surveillance in steeling a paper document from within a filing cabinet as air-gapped intelligence files are all the rage ?
And also who is in control of the surveillance drones and how do they communicate ?
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Supposition here is not helping your cause.
How else can you move forward then ? TPTB decided to create an invasion story where virtually no clansman ever dies fighting the Inner Sphere …. Wich is in itself a very difficult concept ….
Then there is the issue of Clan Vs Clan wars were virtually everyone dies and again post reaving they a magically returned to 100% combat efficiency …. So it is no up to the individual writing the Alt to bring sanity back to the story …
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The clans must adhere to the Ares Convention
Question – How did you go from my quote “the Clans must adhere to their societal values the same way that the Draconis Combine Samurai must adhere to their values” to the Ares Conventions?
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The clans can very much destroy the IS ship yards and still adhere to their own traditions. They can rebuild them. It does fly in the face of hating waste, but that hasn't stopped them before.
Then why didn’t they adopt this strategy from the start what was stopping them – could it be their social values and the Rules that bind the Clans together ?
And since when is attrition based warfare “dishonorable” – pitiful bidding led to the fools loss ….
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Once the IS started the 'dishonorable' tactics they use, it would cause the clans to see they do not deserve respect, like some of the Falcons had already said about them.
Problem is the Khan of the Falcons never went down this path – and the warriors must obey their Khan or issue a challenge – so when was the last time someone challenged their Khan based upon their decision?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/13/20 12:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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I tell you what. Actually read the story line word for word, and not put in your comprehensive reading garbage, as it seems to prevent the real story from being known. Comstar found out Terra was the clans ultimate goal when Ulric said so when Walterly tried to divert the clans to hit other worlds. The lie saying it was figured out from drawing a line on the map and seeing Terra as the guiding point is enough of that garbage. It makes it sound like the entire complaint is because you don't know the actual story.
The talks did not change the fact that Comstar did not know as much about the clans as they thought they did. Even with Ulric trying to teach them, it still fell short.
Actually, given Comstar trying to destroy the IS, I am surprised Scorpion didn't happen sooner. But under the concept provided, it would have happened in any case if the SL fell. So saying it was just because of Walterly doesn't really cut it. WOB was working in the system since it's inception, and once they though they could get away with it, would have launched their own version, which they did. It is called the Jihad.
And yet, the others were not as ruthless as Walterly, so had to keep from going to certain lengths in order to remove her. They were not just fighting against her, but each other. Almost sounds like a mirror image of the SL and the First Lord. Hmmm.
Do you understand military discipline? Where the CO orders something and the soldiers follow it? You violate orders and get punished for it? The average clan warrior was not sitting around in the lobby talking with the comstar workers. As the clans don't send unimportant messages, only the aides would be there and they would NOT violate orders when the CO says don't mess with them. They do not need to know why, as it is MILTARY ORDERS, and in a military society, they will be followed. Interesting concept. The fact there was no civilian government in the clans means it is nothing like anything we have today. Understanding of what the leaders wants basically comes down to follow orders and kill the enemy in combat. Maybe that helps the comprehensive learning on this.
And as a side note, harmonious relations has nothing to do with the clans. They go out of their way to start conflicts, if it isn't specifically ordered to avoid it.
Still not getting the fact that your ideas do not work in the game where the rules are specific? If the game said nukes don't work at all, then they don't work at all. I hate some of this, as they do not keep things consistent, but you are arguing the game rules can not be followed in the game as you don't like them.
And as said before. The 'only' way to deal with overwhelming force is to resort to nukes. so a small dictator would use them as any invasion that is double or more of his units would be an overwhelming force, and need to be wiped out. But you don't want consistency, as it stops any argument as it turns the idea into a logic hole. All or nothing.
And with all that, including the best personnel, you still never know the whole story. But with this, the intel gathered in 3150 does not good when you are in 3050. It just confirms or denies what you thought was right. Intel is more about timing then not. You can know everything possible, but it needs to be at the time you need it, not years to decades in the future. Even with HPG's knowledge is not instantaneously known to all.
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ghostrider
08/13/20 12:37 PM
66.74.60.165
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Use our world as a guide. We have how many billion people in the world, and yet have large tracts of land that no one bothers with? Simple wiping out satellites until your facility is made, then hidden, allows you to do a few things and keep it quiet. As said before. Building an addition to another base, and do it all underground can keep it quiet, possibly until long after it is abandonded.
But having someone constantly sitting around making notes to how many people are on a base, will cause the base to realize they are being watched. That is why there are large areas of land that the base doesn't use between the core and where the fences are. To help prevent this. To be honest, and it will give you more crap to talk, it would be far easier to use incoming, or company dropships and such to observe hard to reach spots from space as you approach and leave a world, then it is to slog out to one and hope you are not spotted. Simple optical telescopes don't normally have electronics being sent out to be detected.
You are talking about Battletech. Coms are just like targeting systems. They bite the big one. You can normally detect them unless the game needs it to remain quiet. Systems can find out they are being targeted, yet can't find that 30 meter tall unit that is sending out the scanner. The ability to hit somethig over half a kilometer isn't possible in an atmosphere. So it would go along that theory that your coms can't connect at any great distances with any sort of stealth.
I thought it was established that logic doesn't have a part in the game? The fact that only the DC seems to be immune to Comstar working against them, is about the only reason there would not be back up plans. The black boxes were not meant to last part the 4th war, as it destroys the ability of comstar to stop messages they don't want known. Had they actually been used like they should have, the entire clan invasion would not have evolved like it did. Coms black outs would have been found out far sooner, and with proven effects had they been used. There isn't any argument there. That was dropped to allow the story to unfold as the developers wanted.
And no. Omi liked Advocado toast. It had to be kept a secret due to the DC traditions. The loss of face would have destroyed the DCMS.
This leads to something the game dropped after the MAC adventure pack was put out. The sensor baffling materials could well be how a lot of secret facilities stayed a secret. You couldn't detect them normally. Seeing things moving, well that wasn't changed.
The dark web uses the same communications lines as the web does. You basically stop that, and you stop it all. Not much for understanding some simple things like having a HAM radio that uses normal power from the electric grid, being stopped by shutting off the grid, and no back up power is available I see.
Much like the supposed war on drugs, you can not even attempt to beat the dark web when the rich and powerful use it themselves. It is all an illusion to make people think something is being done. It is much easier to catch those that upset the rich and powerful when they think you are not watching the 'way' around the lawful systems. Much like a trap.
Police contiuing to enforce the law worked out pretty well in history. You do not see massive amounts of cities being sterilized due to the population becoming that unruly. There were examples, but for the most part, they were not that common.
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ghostrider
08/13/20 01:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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You did not see Starship Troopers III? The whole movie is about the Sky Marshal being influenced by the Brainbug, and selling out the Earth. If not for the intel, the fleet HQ would have been destroyed. Funny. That movie has been out for a while now.
Some of the other movies that came out for Starship Troopers had one that another Sky Marshal allowed Mars to be invaded, so they could destroy the planet.
Ok. So the LA/LC had some during the Jihad era. What does this have to due with the clan invasion? New conferences are nothing new, but they are not going to tell the news that the clans took 15 worlds and no one knew about it. They are not going to tell the news outlets that they have 5 teams on Barcelona that are trying to keep the resistance going. The news outlets will have someone watching them so certain news never sees the light of day.
Intel is as much as finding out WHERE the intel is at, as gathering it. Undetected remote surveillance does wonders for finding out where it is at. Most stories seem to always have intel hooked up to something that isn't air gapped. But just knowing what is guarding that area helps in getting it as well. Wolfnet is likely to have an advantage over the house intel, as they would have access to SL tech. Which may well include override codes to SL security measures.
The fact that saying canon is wrong, using supposition is why you have to get away from canon. You are trying to change their story using something only you have any clue to the numbers and such. Canon has a lot of large holes in the logic. That is not being argued. It is being argued that your view of what needs to happen is not using the numbers they did to create it. Keeping within their numbers is where you show they should have done something different. Otherwise, do like D&D and make your own reality of it, and drop canon completely.
Suggesting that the clans must adhere to their traditions, then complain that they did is where things are going south. The DCMS did adhere to the canon printed version of Bushido. The clans being unfeeling towards freeborns happens and you say it can't happen that way.
The sound of they must adhere sounds very much like they need to adhere to things they had no part in. The clans do not care so much about civilians. When they follow that, you say they are not being used as they were described to. The DCMS adhere to the games definition of Bushido, yet you say they are not. The idea of the Ares Convention came up as the irony of the entire statement. They are not adhering to YOUR vision of what they should be. They are adhering to the games definition of what they should be. But I don't think you will ever see that one.
Attrition warfare not being dishonorable? For the clans, the fast conclusion is where you show who is superior. To fight beyond the ability to win, just to bleed an enemy is not honorable. It is spiteful, and wasteful. It is why the clans think the IS as barbaric.
The developers did NOT want the clans to overrun the IS as you try to make it sound. They wanted a threat and the ability to stop it. Hence the trial rules. It could have been done much better, but then I don't think that even the writers they had, were up for something better. They are for doing more war then backfilling stories. And that is where they seem to screw up the most. Trying to make stories out of the game, but continuity with rules prevents it from being without major issues.
Vlad was one of the last ones I knew of. But then it was about that time that I stopped getting the books. The issue with challenging the khans is the khans can choose a champion to fight for them, and some would negate the warriors challenge by ignoring it.
Which Khans demanded the Falcons issue the Batchall? The two that were part of the initial invasion did NOT order the Falcons that won the bids to issue any challenge. They chose to sidestep it by saying it was the commanders right to ignore customs at that point. I would have to look it up, but I believe the khans actually supported not issuing the batchall, but could not say that with the other khans as it would be against the clan traditions.
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Requiem
08/13/20 08:50 PM
1.158.133.26
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The lie saying it was figured out from drawing a line on the map and seeing Terra as the guiding point is enough of that garbage. It makes it sound like the entire complaint is because you don't know the actual story.
And yet this is an Alt. Universe that attempts to comprehend every situation, from every point of view, and not to accept information on nebulous blanket statement basis. That is underlying story will be similar to the canon story, however the majority individuals within the story will divert widely from the norm as I want my characters to actually stick with their characters.
Case in point, Hanse Davion, the Napoleon of his day and yet for the entire Clan invasion he goes MIA when it comes to strategic advancement – at the bare minimum he would have initiated a n elastic defense in depth theory for his units on multiple worlds.
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Even with Ulric trying to teach them, it still fell short.
Where the direct method produces limited results there is always “tradecraft” – advanced espionage tactics either on Clan held OZ worlds such as support personnel through to Focht’s Diplomatic Team would have included a couple of spys.
Just remember this – Prelude to the Clan Invasion –
The Clans “Chatterweb” emphasizes the dissemination of knowledge– media shows include news and those focusing on news as well as their “great” leaders; and
This would have also have included information regarding the determination of which of the Clan would participate for the invasion.
Both Clan Wolf and Ghost Bear’s more liberal attitude towards their freeborn would have allowed them access to such information – information when properly harvested and sifted through could produce quality information in regards to what the Clans real objective is as well as their society norms, social conduct, history, religion etc. As to how many within the freeborn support elements would have brought with them media / entertainment files to pass the time and how many Black Markets would exist between the freeborn elements to exchange such disks for others – 6 months into the inner sphere and who knows how many years before you are rotated back to the Clan Home Worlds – The Diamond Sharks would have made a killing on new entertainment / news shows from home – that could have been copied by IS spys and then sifted through for important information ……also how many trueborn would tempted to exchange clan shows for IS shows creating a new black market on their new assigned worlds ?
Just as Gallipoli Campaign was an open subject at the officers mess prior to invasion; so too was Operation Revival on the Clan home worlds … in all reality the aims of the invasion was very open once a little more thought is applied to the subject.
Also the Clans freeborn are wide open for infiltration by an IS spy.
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Do you understand military discipline? Where the CO orders something and the soldiers follow it? You violate orders and get punished for it?
You do understand military human resource theory of management? How do you get the best out of your all the different units within your military? Just making dogmatic orders is not the way to go – you have to get your unit to see the big picture as to why their cog is so important …. If ordered to not get in the way of ComStar Adepts as they assist in their Vichy Government will they still go out of their way to pick a fight?
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Still not getting the fact that your ideas do not work in the game where the rules are specific?
As this is an Alt Universe that, if the idea of Nukes are introduced, then they should conform to the rules of physics.
However, in reality I would prefer to ditch nukes and all WMDs altogether – and introduce mass IS warships earlier and initiate a Naval war.
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Use our world as a guide. We have how many billion people in the world, and yet have large tracts of land that no one bothers with? Simple wiping out satellites until your facility is made, then hidden, allows you to do a few things and keep it quiet.
And yet one person in the next town over knows exactly where the base is …. Area 51?; how many other secret bases became known?
Creating a blanket statement is not an absolute – information will get out …
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But having someone constantly sitting around making notes to how many people are on a base, will cause the base to realize they are being watched.
High Altitude weather balloon;
High powered telescope;
Advanced electronic eavesdropping equipment;
Spy obtaining access;
Also remember during the Clan War an observatory built upon the lunar surface assisted DCMS units against the Clans – so even a drop-ship on the Lunar surface with a built in advanced telescope could be used to obtain very in-depth pictures that could then be analyzed for irregularities …
etc. etc.
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So it would go along that theory that your coms can't connect at any great distances with any sort of stealth.
Black Knight ‘Mech https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Knight
SLDF - Its advanced communications gear allowed the Black Knight to effortlessly coordinate an entire company of 'Mechs simultaneously, could easily link together the command frequencies of an entire parent regiment and connect with orbital support satellites.
Bug-eye https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bug-Eye
Naval Comm-Scanner Suite https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naval_Comm-Scanner_Suite
t was primarily used to monitor communications and detect spacecraft emissions with much greater accuracy than that provided by standard sensor suites.
High-Rez Imager Camera https://www.sarna.net/wiki/High-Rez_Imager_Camera
is a piece of satellite imaging equipment. This sophisticated holographic/photographic array is capable of distinguishing objects as small as a meter from orbit
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The black boxes were not meant to last part the 4th war
Then why is there K-0 series (2580 version) to K-6 series (3061 version) – and in all reality there should be far more versions than this all the way to 3150 ….
Their ability to assist with military / government operations are just too important ….
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Had they actually been used like they should have, the entire clan invasion would not have evolved like it did.
Correct.
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sensor baffling materials
Chameleon Light Polarization Shield https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chameleon_Light_Polarization_Shield
First on my list to bring back when fighting the Clans – and they thought the IS couldn’t drop lower in their opinion!
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The dark web uses the same communications lines as the web does. You basically stop that, and you stop it all.
and the concept of secret servers? …. The concept of advanced hackers?
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You do not see massive amounts of cities being sterilized due to the population becoming that unruly.
Consider the States department information for each county – eg Mexico no go areas – Colima, Guerrero, Michoacan, Sinaloa, and Tamaulipas
Chicago in the ‘30s
Then there are also shady areas in most large cities that can be considered avoid at all cost.
So wouldn’t each House have a similar information as to worlds / ciies on those worlds you should avoid at all cost as ell as states – MoC comes to mind ….
Never seen StarShip Troopers 3
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Ok. So the LA/LC had some during the Jihad era. What does this have to due with the clan invasion?
Even today – reporters are embedded in the military – same could be assumed with the distant future …. Enquiring minds want to know …. And then there is the trick of embedding a spy with the reporters.
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intel is as much as finding out WHERE the intel is at, as gathering it.
Holistic approach to intelligence gathering is required.
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Suggesting that the clans must adhere to their traditions, then complain that they did is where things are going south
And where did these traditions go south?
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Attrition warfare not being dishonorable? For the clans, the fast conclusion is where you show who is superior. To fight beyond the ability to win, just to bleed an enemy is not honorable. It is spiteful, and wasteful. It is why the clans think the IS as barbaric.
For the fist part of the invasion the IS has played to the Clan’s rules of war …. However post year of peace they will now have to play to the IS’s rules of war …. If they bid incorrectly then they are gone …. If the declare it Dezgra then that too is acceptable as the game is moving from surgical strike to all out total destruction of one side or the other.
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The developers did NOT want the clans to overrun the IS as you try to make it sound.
That’s not what 3250 states – ilkhan of the Star League ? not impressed / and hate the idea ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/14/20 12:09 AM
66.74.60.165
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How much of Hanse's orders were modified or completely disobeyed by the LC command? How much of it came to late, or was 'lost' by comstar, such as having to be rerouted which made the orders too late to do anything? Same thing could be said of Skye. That area may well have been a major cause of units not getting to the front as they needed to stop issues with the entire march.
And no matter how you spin it, this is all about ripping on canon. The statement of canon is wrong because I did this is the end all of that falsehood.
For over 250 years, there has been no case of being able to sell secrets from one clan to another. If they could even attempt it, both clans would kill the person as it is dishonorable. So where the idea would come from leaves me wondering just how many straws are being grasped at.
Even with the poor treatment by their clans, the freeborns would still side with the clans over the IS. Once they got in deeper this would have changed, but by that time, it was too late to so anything like sell clan information.
It would be more likely to get things out of selling clantech to the manufacturers then it would be to sell troop data to the main governments. At least the clantech wouldn't be out of date in a day or so. And that is IF you believe the information is accurate. The IS did not trust the clans to be forth coming with things, as their succession wars were built on lying thru the backside. Part of why they did not respond better in the beginning, on top of Comstar helping keep it quiet.
Real life bs does not apply to the clans as there is NOTHING that compares to them. The clans have dealt with orders being given and you follow them, even if you don't know what is going on with it. The clans know fighting, and when to obey the orders. They don't need to know anything more about things that concern others, because that doesn't exist in their trials. You are NOT relying on reinforcements to take or hold an objective. The enemy is NOT going to drop another galaxy on you in a day. Between waves, you got time to reload and rearm. What concerns would you have? Have you even thought of that before suggesting they are exactly like today's units? Even trouncing them, would not result in warship bombardment, as they do stick with the trial rules. Just a hint that you violated that, would cause a major rush to destroy those dezgra units.
As stated so many times in the past, what the alt does is what it does. Saying canon has to follow suit is the big issue.
Saying there is no logic, yet doing the same thing, only a different way does not mean the logic magically comes in. It just creates more issues.
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ghostrider
08/14/20 12:38 AM
66.74.60.165
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Funny. Area 51 was unknown for a long while. And it has become the open secret to keep people from looking for others in the area. Even having offshoots connected to it, you wouldn't know as you don't have access inside. Hanger 18 is Roswell New Mexico was another secret base for a while. It kept people's focus on them while research was being done elsewhere. Yet what is actually there or was there? No one outside of specific areas of the government or private companies know. So in effect, it is still carrying out secret research.
Funny that you suggest weather balloons over an area that would be a no fly zone. It would be shot down before it got to see anything, and the people that put it up would be arrested. There is no leeway on this. Everyone knows there is nothing allowed. Small drones today pose a threat more then weather balloons. But the military shoots down things waiting for someone stupid enough to complain their drone was downed.
The command module in Marauders, and the coms in Phoenix Hawks could do the same thing. The command module Cyclops is yet another. So there is far more then just that which could do the same thing. The dual seated Battlemaster was the same way. Yet what happened to them? The same thing with all the high tech bs in the game that allows the enemy to defeat your units thru combined arms. It was dropped to avoid it being a problem with your advances.
I agree, this is stupidly frustrating.
Now a counter question. Did the CC stealth armor ever get used against the clans? How did it perform? Yeah. That is why the CC had to remain out of it. This would open up another can of worms.
As said before. Having the black boxes in use, allows the FC/FS/LC/LA to get around using the HPG network. And the DC got ahold of it. SO how to you explain the lack of responses to the Jihad and such if they are still in use? You can't really. It needs to disappear as it stops the whole coms issue. Yes. It is stupid, but seems to be the only way to allow things like the Jihad to actually do as much damage as it did.
Funny that the clans came out with the better ecm as well as basically a cloaking device, yet they are supposed to announce their intentions. So yeah. This does screw with the entire premise of things.
Been down the road of advanced hackers. It doesn't end well for any case. As for secret servers? How long can they last using WIFI when every wifi circuit has been shut down? Phone lines being shut down as well. Laser coms? Yet you need to have a reciever to send to. Eventually, that is found. How quickly is the same question as the burst coms, which could be used. Vary frequencies to avoid detection for a while longer.
The concept of no go areas is bs if you really think about it. The houses would remove those spots if they were really that bad. But they have to remain, otherwise heroes could not get answers when they are on the run.
And those reporters are not going to put out news the government doesn't want, or they get removed from their posts. Even jailed or 'lost' in battles. The general public is not going to know the enemy is about to land on their back porch. And to give information to the enemy, such as letting the FC know that the DC lost 15 regiments would be even more likely to get an execution going. Same on the FC side.
The clans backstory is harsh treatment of anyone that isn't as good as the person dishing out the garbage. Get that same person in an area that NO one is even close, as the complaint comes up that it shouldn't happen. Not getting where the argument goes south?
Given how many 'heroic' units came from militia, especially along the periphery border, the entire premise of them falling that quickly is funny in a way. It does explain why the developers had the Falcons do surprise attacks, as if there was any advanced warning, the Falcons would still be on wave one while the rest were on wave 3. The DC still had issues with vehicles and mechs working together, but not as bad as the clans. The FC on the other hand, had them working together much better, even with the social generals still in the LC portion. There is no getting around some issues, as tanks normally can not jump gaps, so they tend to die when caught like that, but they would have done more damage then the story implies. And with that, the clans brought more supplies with them, then implied as well, as there was no lack of replacements when it came time to continue on.
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Requiem
08/14/20 08:30 AM
1.158.133.26
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How much of Hanse's orders were ….
Really? …..
First, would anyone ever disobey Hanse when you consider his battlefield achievements?
Second, change in orders are too easy to audit at a future date … thus putting ComStar once more in the spotlight …
Also, wouldn’t a message of this import be sent via a Verigraph? (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Verigraph)
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And no matter how you spin it, this is all about ripping on canon.
Considering Hanse’s tactical acumen shown throughout his life upon many battlefields – please do show me where Hanse’s genius is when it comes to the Clan invasion as just leaving your forces on worlds and allowing the Clans to invade them with no backup whatsoever doesn’t seem to be the same level of genius he has shown in the past?
And as such how could the truth be considered ripping on Cannon – as in my opinion the entire FC response to the invasion is incredibly sub-par. It is totally lacking in what I would consider a response by Hanse …..
Remember what Takashi Kurita said about him when he was told he had just died …. How great an enemy he was and how he would miss him ….and stating that, either you gave your best on the battlefield or he would rip your through out … where is this Commander in Chief during the Clans Invasion?
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For over 250 years, there has been no case of being able to sell secrets from one clan to another.
You are not asking a freeborn for military information …. They wound not have clearance …. What they do have is information as to Clan Society, History, Current History, how the True Born treat them etc. What they have been told as to the aim of Operation Revival is …
Thus providing information for military intelligence and Psy-Ops teams ….
First, Clan Freeborn …. Would they even know what a secret is? Given the level of education an average freeborn receives as well as the society they come from what they would know is common knowledge and given the level of information discussed on the chatterweb any serious IS spy could easily get the information from them …. It is not as if the Clans keep their freeborn locked away 24 / 7 – who is going to get the food and drink from the locals and who is going to drive the garrison commander into the city …. etc.
Second, How many freeborn regularly go to the black-market back home to obtain those hard to find items? And if offered IS items how quick would they be to say yes?
Remember ….. Closed Culture (East Berlin) Vs. Open Culture (West Berlin)
How many West Berlin items found their way to the East?
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Real life bs does not apply to the clans as there is NOTHING that compares to them.
military human resource theory of management – google and have look – also look at the university degree on HRM.
Also, once officers achieve a certain rank may be sent to a university like courses to learn how to become the staff officers required for the more senior positions Chief of Staff etc – One of these courses will be on how to manage their forces under them in order to get the most out of them ie. HRM ….
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The clans have dealt with orders being given and you follow them.
If this is all you teach them the majority of the senior officer corps will not be worth a damn ….
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Area 51 was unknown for a long while.
and Skunk Works and Clarence Leonard “Kelly” Johnson ….. one of the. If not the greatest aeronautical engineer of the 20th Century?
and The Manhattan Project?
How long can these types of facilities be kept secret in an age of advanced sensor and telecommunications?
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Funny that you suggest weather balloons over an area that would be a no fly zone. It would be shot down before it got to see anything,
Max Height Record is 21,290 meters (69,850 ft) – then look at its size – and then consider the how sensitive your radar has to be to pick this up just floating along with a camera ……
This not something most high tech individuals are prepared for, going low tech to gain photographic information ….
Also the funny thing is I didn’t see a drone dropper gun in the list of armaments for any of the forces in the Battletech universe ….
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SO how to you explain the lack of responses to the Jihad and such if they are still in use?
Let me answer this with a quote from your own writing one paragraph up ….
“It was dropped to avoid it being a problem with your advances. I agree, this is stupidly frustrating.”
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How long can they last using WIFI when every wifi circuit has been shut down?
How about a piece of paper – a pen – a code book and a dead drop?
Then all information could be collected by the master cell and sent on via a Black Box …
In a highly technological environment going old school can be ow so infuriating to those who are unwilling to adapt!
Also ancient tactics and weapons should be reviewed – they are more dangerous than most give them credit for …
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And those reporters are not going to put out news the government doesn't want
Have a look at CNN archive footage of Iraq war ….. Shock and Awe – footage from the 2003 Invasion of Iraq.
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And with that, the clans brought more supplies with them.
Highly doubtful when you compare what each Clan brought with them in the way of Mechs / Elementals / Fighters and then compare to the total number of Transports available …. It is a wonder they would have had enough supplies until the first re-supply transports arrived – the Tyranny of Distance when it comes to Resupply and Reinforcement numbers is clearly lacking in the plot development stage - if there are no clearly established resupply bases that were established prior to the commencement of the invasion the entire first couple of waves would have had to have been put on hold for a lack of consumables – or a total switch to energy weapons until their resupply ships arrived …. And then there is the issue of reinforcement numbers … sooner rather than latter iw should have been clear to all the invading Clans that their current sibko numbers would not be enough to support the invasion …. Thus each Khan would have had to make a very hard choice … slowly die of attrition, dilute the warrior pool with substandard warriors from their trial of position or allow more freeborn in ……
It makes for a very interesting side story due to the logistics of the game ….
One that should have been addressed and not just left to fester as an unknown ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/14/20 01:00 PM
66.74.60.165
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I know there are a few that would. Nondi Steiner, the commander of the army for one. Most of the troops loyal to Skye for another. Before the 4th war, some of the Capellen March troops would The question being asked shows no real thought into what happens in the game. There are more down the line, but those should shut down that line of thought.
Ripping on canon is not the lack of Hanse not doing much during the invasion, but the lie that the alt is not here to rip canon. From the way it has been presented, it is ALL about ripping canon and the developers. Still getting the only way it can be done, and you don't accept that is wasn't is supporting this.
Missed the point yet again. Most clanners, freeborn and trueborn do not even attempt to discuss clan ways of doing things, except to rip on the barbaric ways of the IS. Those that would, are not going to explain how they limited the number of warriors that are born, nor the training process in any depth. They are not going to give you any details as to what equipment each star has, or even the clans.
Asking how their society works is saying you have no idea, and that alone would cause them to realize it is not something to talk about. And your very example shows they do know what secrets are. They are NOT going to tell the truth if asked about the black market.
The psy ops did get used and worked, it just wasn't instantaneous, nor did it produce the effects you wanted. It broke up the clans, but caused the IS ones to become king makers, not have them surrender or flee.
Again. There is nothing like the clans in history. Sending warriors to school to learn mundane things? On the job training, and using others to get things done. I have yet to see anything that suggests there is officer training programs or logistics or even management in the clans. That may all be part of training before the Trial of Position, if at all. This applies only to the military. Other castes get such training. It is more likely that another caste is on hand to take orders and make them happen.
Funny. I see a lot of weapons that would drop a drone. The basic slug throwing pistol to begin with.
And you don't need super sensative equipment to find weather balloons. Anyone on patrol for the clans would be more observant the most IS patrols are. Even with the day to day nothingness that comes from patrolling clan lands.
So going from a single person gathering information to a full network of people to gather the information is how it will play out? That's fine. I made an assumption of having just one field agent hiding near a base counting and logging any military asset they see, then getting that information back to base as quickly can be done. Then it would be just as likely to have decoys that take off in different directions to distract any one tracking such ploys. Now if time is the issue, dropboxes will not work. If it isn't, then go for it.
And yet the use of the 7 second delay has become popular. The news footage was set to avoid showing what units were where. Did it actually work? I really don't know.
There are a few flaws with some of the things to do with the lack of supplies. Suggesting going all energy weapon. That is very much based on what you brought with you. You may not have enough to swap out a trinary much less the entire invasion force. So unless you buy or send batchalls to the other clans for theirs, this is not likely to happen.
And the game ignores several things that changes how outcomes of battles. A simple head shot with an ac20 or gauss rifle destroys the head of a mech. It is unlikely that the supply depot has a few ready to go. So unless another clan mech has nothing but the head left, you are out of luck. And with that, it is doubtful that the clans brought more then a few fusion engines for what mechs they use. SO a few engine destroyed effects or gyros being wipeout out is yet another thing that doesn't seem to have a place in the battles.
Then let's not forget the ever popular wiping out small mechs quickly. With out reserves, the clan stars would become depleted quickly. Just something as simple as who was able to fire first. The LRM/SRM carrier or the Puma? There is absolutely no way the IS did not get to ambush clan forces. I do retain the right that elementals could be used to remove that threat from a lot of scenarios.
But that leads to inconsistency with their own rules for sensors. They can find unarmored soldiers sneaking up on tanks, but not an elemental? So does each suit have an ECM suit on it?
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Requiem
08/14/20 07:25 PM
1.158.133.26
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I know there are a few that would.
In all reality Nondi would be acting as Hanse’s XO - second-in-command – and as for the Skye forces, Nondi would keep them in line.
If you are concerned about regional forces then consider those from the Draconis March and their opposite numbers within the Draconis Combine – How are they going to take orders that they must word alongside those from the Federated Suns / Draconis Combine as Allies.
This is where Careful planning regarding assignment allocation.
<Though it would add to the drama.>
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Ripping on canon - Still getting the only way it can be done, and you don't accept that is wasn't is supporting this.
I disagree – distorting the narrative in order to achieve a pre-determined result / lack of Beta and Focus Group Testing / Inability to expand the narrative to consider the multiple strategies that are required / Inability to ensure character the continuation of client development and finally producing a story that is lacking in development and results in multiple fundamental errors in understanding the societies they have established through their House / Clan societies descriptions is in no way “ripping on canon”.
Constructive Criticism is required – why Brand Development and the future expansion of the business so that it can prosper in the future. As is it appears as if the franchise is not developing and expanding – there needs to be a aim of returning to the 80’s – there needs to be not only a re-penetration into the market there also needs to be a re-awareness of the Band other than as a computer game.
To achieve this there is but one way <in my opinion> – A new entrepreneurial spirit / white knight who will introduce, First a new space opera to capture the imagination of youth – Second, transforming said Space Opera into a new vibrant anime … whist at the same time use this to reinvigorate the Brand – increase new books and profitability and expand the target market
The Warrior arc is satisfactory as is …. Just kill off the CC and turn them into a government in exile / freedom force with Kali in charge …. As her brand of chaos is a good thing …. And fighting to re-establish an empire by “Mulan” would make for a good side story in order to capture a new demographic target market.
The Clan arc is the perfect choice for a total reinvigoration of the band, however ….
What is it that I find important within a vast space war opera ….
Making a strong multi dimensional story – from all areas of the military;
Important action scenes – ensure the totality of each side’s TO&E is utilized in all battle scenes – make it realistic and believable;
Believable dialogue;
Believable strategies and even some not so believable strategies that extend the realm of possibilities; <didn’t the canon invasion seem a little boring (and dated when attempting to re-read now – changes in target market sophistication?) to you as all it considered was those forces on the front line – and then only from the Mech warriors point of view?>
<How many different and exiting side stories can you introduce? Consider all the different ones I have championed and this in no way all of them that can be considered.>
Drama – multiple love interests wouldn’t hurt;
Do not make the story so one sided;
A story that you want to relive over and over – make you feel like you are there with the characters;
If something like this does not occur very soon can anyone see the Table Top / Novel Brands prosper long term? As competition is aggressively reducing / eroding the Brand awareness / viability in the market.
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Missed the point yet again. Most clanners, freeborn and trueborn do not even attempt to discuss clan ways of doing things
Anastasius Focht as envoy to the Clans;
1st Sommerset Strikers and the capture of Kristen;
Victor’s Bondswomen – Tiaret Nevversan;
Clan Nova Cat – dialogue with the Draconis Combine;
Clan Ghost Bear – “Tensions between former citizens of the FRR and the Ghost Bears were also eased as those living within the Dominion were granted a great deal of freedom, including in how they were ruled, while the Ghost Bears themselves began to embrace the Inner Sphere's way of life.”
Would say otherwise …
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Those that would, are not going to explain how they limited the number of warriors that are born, nor the training process in any depth.
Don’t need the Clans to explain. Wolfs Dragoons provided this information, and in depth. As this is where Victor and the other scions were put through a brief training regime and during his trial of position and where he won his BattleMech – that he would go on to name Prometheus.
The idea of sibkos as well as their limited replacement numbers were known to all of the leaders at this point in time.
Though it must have been obvious that there were problems with regards to replacement personnel in the event they are able to track individual units and their ongoing TO&E.
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Asking how their society works is saying you have no idea, and that alone would cause them to realize it is not something to talk about.
Getting someone to open up about themselves is a basic employment interview strategy. Most people are more than willing to proselytize of their values / beliefs / country of origin – same here. Since when would any Clans’ freeborn be trained not to talk to IS strangers? As this wouldn’t be high on their list of things to do ….
And clearly a lack of understanding as to a Black Market – go to any famers / new-age market and everything is discussed.
As for Psy-ops there is no evidence of it ever been utilized within the game, if it had then the effects would have been vastly different.
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There is nothing like the clans in history
Spartans
Roman Legionnaires
There are many examples of utilizing this type of training ….. it is common for a warrior society to adopt this system ….
If the clans do not have training programs that include – management – Logistics – etc then their ability to wage war within the IS would be less than stellar as the IS will run rings around them …. Consumables issues, food / water issues, spare parts issues …. etc etc
If the Clan rely on freeborn to undertake their logistics …. What fun psy-ops could have here …..
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I see a lot of weapons that would drop a drone.
Really? …. At what altitude are your drones at ?
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And you don't need super sensitive equipment to find weather balloons.
You can see a balloon 20Km in the air? – as they are not that large …. Sorry but the naked eyes will not be able to see them
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So going from a single person gathering information to a full network of people to gather the information is how it will play out?
A Corps of infantry as well as those from all the other information gathering units would collate the data ……. Would be in overall control …. On the ground it depends on each partisan units cell numbers as well as those that assist them …. Have a look at the film a Bridge too Far …..
Going full energy weapons – cannibalize from those that did not win the Batchall
Logistics – lack of supplies was not even considered in Canon
Elementals sneaking up is a very real possibility and should be included ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/14/20 09:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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In the books Hanse joked that the Draconis March might join the FRR. But the question was who would ignore Hanse's orders? That question came up before, and several suggestions were given. It may well be Nondi is in charge of the LC half, so all decisions are her's, even with Hanse being ruler. It is possible Hanse stepped back to let Victor do more of the planning, though we do know how well that would turn out.
It may well be the lack of information prevented him from getting things done right. And Comstar is yet another possibility. OR all of them combined. But the most likely is that TPTB didn't want to make the clans work for their initial gains.
Believable story line seems to be one that few share or even discuss, is a problem with the clan invasion. Most seem to agree the Jihad is garbage, but the clans not anywhere close. Presentation of how things are done is where bagfest from 3025 onwards seems to stem from. But you being a pro writer, it does exactly what is written.
Ulric wanted a way to stop the clans, so giving information to Focht was the way he saw it.
The whole Summerset Strikers story line is garbage no matter how you put it. That was done so the audience that didn't play the game could understand the cartoon's storyline. So that is not valid.
The Nova Cats/Ghost Bears were moving into the IS. But again. This was AFTER the invasion. For the most part, the Dragoons were the main information source of the clans to the IS leaders, and they didn't give up as much as hoped. And it was dated as well. The leaders did NOT go on air and explain the clans to the population, so they were in the dark about it, The intel departments still couldn't get enough to do more then general warnings.
And now let's see. A very few Specific people talked about the clans. Maybe 100 or so, if that?
Still not registering the fact that the Dragoon information was dated. How limited is the beginning of this issue. How many sibkos were started when they were bulding up to the invasion? Did they lessen the requirements to gain more then normal? Given the clans philosophy, I would think they didn't lessen the requirements. Some use freeborns. Now here is a kicker. The Dragoons had NO clue who would be chosen/win the right to invade, so they could not be sure that more clans were simply waiting for their turn to begin their runs. Much like the truce fight was done. And with that, trust was an issue with the leaders and the Dragoons. So grain of salt would be another hinderence.
The clans do not seem to be the social animals you portrait them to be. Granted, the trueborns are the main focus, so the freeborns might be more open. The general attitude towards the IS was disdain. You would speak to them like you would ordering food. Keep it short and to the point. For some, just having them around was more then they could stand. These are unclean barbarians. Maybe a while down the line might have had them talk more, but for the first few waves, I seriously doubt it. And yes. The clan support personnel would remain on base. It was far safer for them.
Actually, there is a very big way Psy-ops was used in the game. If not for Trent taking his bondsman and trusting her, the 'exodus' road would never have been mapped. More then a few warriors found the leaders using politics to promote warriors instead of them showing their skills. The merchants were spreading the disease of plenty to the clans all over the place, including the home worlds. For someone that looks for things to harp on, you miss a lot when it comes time to see what did happen. Again, another thing that leads to the conclusion that this is just one big bagfest.
So the Spartans, Legionares and such had several light years gap between them and anything that could be shown as a different system working besides theirs? Funny. They were all earthbound. And they were completely isolated to prevent any news from getting in to the population about other systems?
Wow. You finally got a clue on why they said the clans were not ready for any sort of long battles. They just did not pay attention to supplies. They deal with supply needs for maybe a month in advanced, max. I don't see anywhere in the clans home worlds that would take that much time to get munitions and such from the depots to the units that ordered it. Only Ulric bothered to learn anything. So yes, they had a place to learn it, but it was not a required course to being promoted.
Exactly. What altitude would you be flying at? Sniper rifles, anti air guns, for the game rules any mech weapon with a range of 4 or more. And the stupid thing is drones only became 'popular' with the SDS systems. As agreed upon, that was one of the biggest issues with the game. Now tie that to no remote controls, and you basically destroy anything that is an automated defense.
What military base does not have radar and such working? Look outs checking for that very thing, as balloons are a way to drop ordinance on the base by surprise. With the clans, elementals as well as mechs would be watching for that.
Again, you show no understanding of the game with the idea of the clans cannibalizing IS weapons. It would not be done. Not ever when it is SL weapons on the downed mechs. First off is the taint that is considered with IS weapons. But more to the point, the clan weapons are superior in every way, and the clan front lines do NOT use standard weapons. They are all er/pulse with less weight/criticals. Which is important as swapping out an ERML for a normal ML would throw off the targeting system, even after you get it fitted into a pod. Coolant lines as well as powerlines and such would be a royal pain, and that is if they would even try. Taking IS ammo is more likely. Which is one of those things I have an issue with in the stories. The IS ammo does the same thing as the clans, yet somehow doesn't perform the same in IS weapons as they do in clan weapons.
And salvaging the omnis that were not part of the bid does not solve the issue with no supplies. It only removes units from service, which are used in other assaults or to put down revolts that the PGC/second line can't. This also leads to move trials as those with the units you want to salvage WILL absolutely refused to give them up. Most would be from different units entirely.
The lack of supplies what used in canon. It did not cripple the clans so they could not advance, but it slowed down how many worlds were attacked in future waves. It is even stated that way in the books. So read the print, not what you want to see in the stories.
And so you know, the elementals DID sneak up on units. A few stories said the tankers didn't even know they were on the field until items started getting destroyed. One had a crew member turn around in a Striker, I believe, only to see the gunner being pulled out of the now destroyed turret by an elemental. This is part of why the developers decided to have tanks do even more poorly against the clans. Elementals were 'able' to counter normal infantry as well as most of the fighting vehicles.
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Requiem
08/15/20 09:38 AM
1.158.133.26
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Ulric wanted a way to stop the clans, so giving information to Focht was the way he saw it.
Surreptitiously – too many witnesses for anything overt!
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The whole Summerset Strikers story line is garbage no matter how you put it.
This “garbage” is also canon https://www.sarna.net/wiki/1st_Somerset_Strikers
“….established the 1st Somerset Strikers and their exploits as shown in the show as canonical at least in broad strokes.”
And as far as TPTB are concerned their commanding officer went on to become Archon. (even though it is completely against the laws of succession!)
No matter how you look at it Clan warriors did discuss information when they become bondsman.
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Still not registering the fact that the Dragoon information was dated.
When did historical information change?
When was the last time anyone changed the traditions and fighting styles of the Clans, I mean the cans are not that hidebound?
When the last time there were resupplied and supplied with Omni Mechs – Case in point Victor’s Omni – could this be used to extrapolate clan technology?
When was the last time anyone ever changed the sibko numbers being produced each year? (at the bare minimum this would provide a starting point when analyzing information.)
However the big question regarding the dragoons was never answered …
When Wolf met his Khan for the last time and was ordered to assist the IS with preparations for the upcoming invasion – why didn’t he obey the order?, as doing nothing until the year of peace seems like did virtually nothing to me.
All he did was allow Natasha to reform a Clan Cluster with stars rather than lances ….
How about providing information to NASIS as to Omni-Mech / Fighter Technology as well as Elemental technology as well as Warship technology?
Half hearted? And why?
So, Replacement personnel…
Didn’t lessen the requirements ….; and
No to the increasing freeborn numbers
They are really in it now …. For the next twenty years all clans will have to reconsider their next steps vary carefully lest attrition of their forces will in all likelihood lead to a. destruction at the hands of the IS or b. destruction at the hands of another Clan when they initiate a trial of absorption ….
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The general attitude towards the IS was disdain.
How long did that last East / West Germany post Berlin Wall?
Remember Closed Society Vs Open Society – add one freeborn, time, booze and fun and you have a friend for life …. University life ….
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The clan support personnel would remain on base. It was far safer for them.
Then who is going to do all the shopping, and all the other chores, and who is going to interact with all the IS freeborn day in and day out where a simple message would get things done – the warriors – little beneath them!
Also going to see the planet’s representatives yourself is not how you instill power – you need to send one of your minions out and tell the person in question they need to come before their Clan overlords to discuss something …. Basic power trip psychology 101.
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If not for Trent taking his bondsman and trusting her, the 'exodus' road would never have been mapped.
And what of all the freeborn within their PGCs and all their support positions – how many could have been converted?
The question that was asked was “There is nothing like the clans in history. Sending warriors to school ….”
Schooling via sibko is virtually the same as that of a Spartan and legionary joining in his youth and leaning everything before being assigned to a Legion …..
So take away all the trappings and the technology and there is a very close comparison …
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They just did not pay attention to supplies. They deal with supply needs for maybe a month in advanced, max. I don't see anywhere in the clans home worlds that would take that much time to get munitions and such from the depots to the units that ordered it.
Please then extrapolate this to their time in the IS – how would a major military force survive for any period of time with this type of attitude?
Again it is clear if the Clans you are alluding to have this attitude to war they would not have lasted very long …
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With the clans, elementals as well as mechs would be watching for that.
Since when did Mech sensors get this advanced – even Clan ones when you consider the canon rage of their probes?
Unless there is a home rule is made to fix them as per original doctrine this doesn’t work – eye sight is better than many of the probes ?
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Going full energy weapons – cannibalize from those that did not win the Batchall
Above my quote –
Now your quote – “Again, you show no understanding of the game with the idea of the clans cannibalizing IS weapons.”
Notice the problem? I stated that the winning clan bid could cannibalize weapons from the failed bid’s mechs post Batchall – doesn’t this imply that the weapons are clan?
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And salvaging the omnis that were not part of the bid does not solve the issue with no supplies. It only removes units from service, which are used in other assaults or to put down revolts that the PGC/second line can't. This also leads to move trials as those with the units you want to salvage WILL absolutely refused to give them up. Most would be from different units entirely.
No supplies … no to little consumables and a major engagement …. As commander what are you going to do …. Fight amongst yourself … deplete pilots even more or come up with a compromise ? maybe taking that course on HRM wasn’t the worst idea?
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It did not cripple the clans so they could not advance, but it slowed down how many worlds were attacked in future waves. It is even stated that way in the books. So read the print, not what you want to see in the stories.
Again with sub-par plot development …. Decreasing logistics will cripple the clans …. Tyranny of distance ….
Time to understand the reality of war … logistics are just that important….
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Elementals were 'able' to counter normal infantry as well as most of the fighting vehicles.
First, compare numbers – the entire number of Toads a Clan Has to just one RCT Infantry
Second compare weapons IS has available to kill Toads with and the ranges to which they can use them
Anti tank weapons are not that new, as well as the idea of envelopment strategies due to overwhelming numbers
High powered sniper rifles 2Km is not beyond the realm of possibility.
Mass Inferno SRM swarm attack by Infantry Companies (one to a person)
Then if they get real close there is a pistol that fires an anti tank round …. And was used in WW2 ….. Sturmpistole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmpistole
So again why are WW2 infantry weapons more effective against the Clans?
Then there are the massive lists of support weapons available for infantry – and yet somehow were never allowed in the game against the clans.
I would also like to point out Clan armor is large and very bulky – going through any forest type area is going to be both difficult and loud when they crash through everything …. Subtlety thy name is not an Elemental ……
Also what ever happened to the IS sneak suits?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/15/20 11:52 AM
66.74.60.165
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You mean having him watch rituals of bidding, as well as how each clan operates isn't overt? Oh yeah. It is meer bragging how great they are. And allowing him to ask questions of the staff and troops wasn't overt. They didn't invite the other house leaders to witness this, even though clan honor would allow them safecon if bargained for.
Historical information isn't what was the topic. Things like how many sibkos were put into the system to prepare for this? Did the clans historically against freeborns, allow them to be part of the military? What upgrades have been done since they stopped talking to the clans? And a few traditions were ignore by some during the invasion. More after the clans lost. The first printed was when the Falcons hit the Bears water purifier on a world, and never issued a batchall for the raid.
This also does not say if the toumans were expanded, IE binaries becoming trinarires, or even adding in a new galaxy to the mix.
Victor's omni is something that proves the Dragoons did make clan tech. The parts to keep it running could not be salvaged from the battlefield like you would think. The weapons and such were clan, not recovered SL tech. So there would have to be a stack of spares lying around. And this is not covering the machines recovered in the 10ths runs against the clans. But so far, it seems everyone agrees the IS should have been making clan tech, and the expense reason is bs.
Another example of not reading the actual books. Sibko numbers have constantly changed during the history of the clans. They get adjusted for things like heavy losses, or even light losses. Large amounts of bondsmen will get them to lower the numbers. There are only 800 blood names. To prevent internal fighting that would happen if you say double the numbers that can compete for them, they tend to stick to certain numbers of warriors. Except for absorbsion of new names, they kept a relative number on how many warriors were in each clan. Otherwise, things like clans becoming smaller because of a lack of numbers would never have happened. Yes, time to raise the warriors would have an impact on it, but they could recover.
Funny that the little 'broad strokes' seems to have been ignored in that. Much like HBS game, there are only parts of it canon. They only allowed it as it was to promote the game. It was something that showed what was going on during the invasion, but made up things that were NOT canon. The story line for the cartoon was garbage, as it conflicted with the written rules of the time. The actual story itself did the same thing. It was all retconned into the game.
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ghostrider
08/15/20 12:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Comprehension seems to have failed, so time to educate you on things. First off, helping the IS means what? Showing them how to fight the clans? Ok. Composition and tactics covers that.
Weapons? Do you think the IS would not have taken that and destroyed any chance they had of repulsing the clans by not going to war as soon as they had them? And with the issue Jamie had with the FWL and the DC, would he have left them out of the deal? The FWL was not as bad as the DC, and was far enough in the past, that logic would say that Joshua and the others died while they were part of a civil war.
Telling the leaders before hand, that they were spies for the SLDF would have had them laughed at, up to arrested and executed.
Now they could well have increased the concepts that would defeat the clans, like help Hanse realize the RCTs were a good thing, and to expand that. The LC, they left, but I believe part of that is the crappy social generals, as well as needing to scout the DC. It was written that they didn't know WHEN the invasion would happen, just that it WOULD happen, and soon.
Working and training other mercs as another step. Improving skill levels would help all, even if they couldn't match the clans weapons or tactics, it would still take a toll on the clans numbers.
You are once again putting the end results and suggesting the middle would have known those facts. They did not have a resource book that told everything available to them at the time. So they did not know if any changes to increase the numbers had happened. So that is another logic hole forming in the perfect solution. Adding in information that was not available at the time.
Let's see. How long was East Germany out of contact with ANYTHING to do with West Germany and the rest of the world? A huge factor in the way things are different between the clans and everything else. NO examples of life, other then what you got makes you believe that anyone that tells you otherwise is creating a fantasy.
This would also include little things like luxuries thrown over the wall, as well as propaganda units constantly telling the others how their side was so much better, and the other stunk.
And dictatorships love to change history books. So the glowing scene of what happened, gets changed to the barbarians despoiling the paradise. Nothing but word history is left to counter this, and you are taught the dictators truths. Nothing to really show otherwise. And again, NO one else near you to contradict it. Complete isolation
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ghostrider
08/15/20 12:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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During the initial invasion, there was no shopping. It was all imported. Which still was happening late into the invasion.
You sent out a warrior or several to give the local liason the order, and they got it. Part of why comstar was important to the clans to keep the population from getting antsy. So actually reading what is there, shows how the clans got things done. Comstar was their shoppers. Logic 101.
Spartans did not get brainwashed like clan warriors did. Not saying the training wasn't brutal, but they did have a choice in what they did. The warrirors in history had outside influence letting them know how others lived and did things. Not so with the clans. Nothing changes the fact that pure isolation is something those on Terra have ever dealt with. It allowed the dictatorship to rise and keep their people from knowing otherwise.
And there is the stupidity of the lack of continuity. They can find out where a single missile was fired from, but not see a mech at over a klick properly. The story of Phelan capturing the prince of the FRR. A small rock was thrown and the prince vaporized it. That should never have shown up on his sensors. But given some things, the balloon would be hotter then the air around it, so thermal would show up. How well, that I don't know.
But the game seems to have perfect defenses around some bases, yet those that should, the enemy can walk right in and take down what ever they want. Consistency is lacking.
This also explains why they got rid of cruise missiles. No way to detect them, so they would be used to hit bases right before a major attack.
Oh yeah. The sensors have missed dropships coming in as well.
By the way the developers had set up the numbers, the clans would only stay in the IS as long as the warships were able to stop a major counter assault. But the IS ship numbers were set to make sure that didn't happen. So the clans supply issues would have prevented the push they had, if not for the magical abilities to get to and on worlds without the locals finding them. There are a few things that could counter this some, but not enough to make a difference.
You did see where those losing the bid, would have immediately called for a trial of refusal, and fight to prevent their weapons from being removed and added to those that won the invasion rights? Basically negating the entire bid.
It was not so simple as you want it to sound like there. The weapons would not be swapped just because.
Did you forget the clans did fight amongst themselves for a lot of reasons? They would ABSOLUTELY fight to keep their weapons on their units, as it would mean they could not even attempt to bid in any more. No way to fight without them. And swapping them around to allow it would mean bidding resources you don't know if you have or not. Your weapons want to Alpha Trinary. They are stuck on the world as you move on. How do you bid in the next assault when your weapons are in Alpha? See the problem here?
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ghostrider
08/15/20 12:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Another thought on weapons swaps.
Do you honestly think that one warrior would allow another warrior to get reputation at their expense?
They would rather have the weapons destroyed, then to have someone else use them and gain the rep. This is the ultimate oneupsman contest. They will NOT help another get the better of them.
Tyranny of distance is something you didn't care about when saying the FS should have sent all of their forces to the clan line. In fact, you said it would be easy. Selective use of such things shows favoritism, as well as NOT wanted to keep it logical and consistent. The story line concentrated on things other then the clans not being able to deal with worlds they took or not having enough supplies to continue the major advancements. With the exception of allowing Clan Wolf to get ahead. How exciting would a story be, if the invader had to stop all forward motion for a few months, while they got supplies? No fighting on either side. Just sit and wait for the hammer to fall? Someone said the story had to be exciting. This wouldn't be it.
If they had anti armor rounds, then the clans would not have been so much of a threat. But then the entire history of the game would have to be thrown out, and the current time line wouldn't exist. Mechs would not be the master of the battlefield, as infantry would be able to snipe them from a distance and kill pilots without them even knowing they were being shot at. Mech armor is the same thing vehicle and elemental armor is. Otherwise, the same weapons would affect them differently.
So cheap weapons are the only thing anyone but elite units get, and even then, elite units seem to lack.
It is stupid, but again, nerfs have to happen to keep mechs the main ground figure.
I think if this was done with consistency, elementals would become the new master of the battlefield, as they don't lack things like having to destroy a building in order to get to those inside. More elementals can fit into a dropship, and are more likely to survive emergency crashes.
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Requiem
08/15/20 09:03 PM
1.158.133.26
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You mean having him watch rituals of bidding, as well as how each clan operates isn't overt?
This is where a unified Clan response is required, are they either,
Egocentric – and have a driven desire to demonstrate their superiority – such as with Focht in allowing him to witness their rituals etc; or
Non-responsive / secretive – the average bondsman who have been taken in battle by an Inner Sphere force.
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Historical information isn't what was the topic.
Really ….?
In explaining who the Clans are requires a comprehensive understanding of their history – post exodus ……to now
This information will be invaluable to psy-ops units.
Other issues – Sibko and graduation numbers – a complete understanding of their traditions etc.
I think you have forgotten but if the Dragoons are not completely honest and provide all the information to every question asked of them by the House Lords what do you think the all the Great Houses will do to them ?
At this point in time the Dragoons will be placed on the front lines to fight the Clans at a minimum – they must prove their loyalty in battle to the IS.
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Victor's omni is something that proves the Dragoons did make clan tech.
If this was accurate then every Great House would demand the technology to build their own ….
It may be easier to say that they have them in their supply depot. within the deep periphery.
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the IS should have been making clan tech, and the expense reason is bs.
I agree that the IS should have the capability of manufacturing Clan Technology …. Someone forgot to remind TPTB as to the expense of the Manhattan Project in producing “the gadget / bomb” during the WW2 – at a time where money to projects etc was extremely important.
The same must be applied here.
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Another example of not reading the actual books. Sibko numbers have constantly changed during the history of the clans. They get adjusted for things like heavy losses, or even light losses.
So? …. Still requires a turnaround time of 18-20 years for the flow through to be noticed on the front line, or do the Clans have a way of increasing growth speed from infant – child – adolescent – young adult …….
Overall sibko numbers can change – graduate numbers can change – but growth speed has yet to change ….
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'broad strokes'
And yet those ‘broad strokes’ have been recognized as Canon – Adam and the entire Complement of the Strikers have been recognized as canon ….
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Comprehension seems to have failed, so time to educate you on things.
First the Dragoons were so respected by all the Great Houses that they could call a conference and all the leaders WOULD COME TO THEIR WORLD to discuss an issue that THEY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE ON, and DURING AN INVASION OF THE IS.
You do understand the political power this requires to pull something like this off?
So what was their orders provided by the Khan?
Ensuring the security of the IS from the machinations of the Clans – the Warden’s view from that of the Crusader view.
So how do you best achieve this?
Demonstrating the Clan’s structure of fighting units through Natasha’s Black Widows on its own?
Could the Dragoons have had a conference prior to this ? In all probability yes;
Could the Dragoons have supplied Onmni Tech to IS so that they could have produced Mechs similar to those in TRO 3058 yes – would these have unduly affected the IS power structure if all of them have access to the same tech at the same time – as it now comes down to who can manufacture the most within a short period of time – so no I doubt that the ultra negative oint expressed would have initiated a war as it would require 20 to 30 years minimum to effectively build up a critical mass of new weapons so as to convert the entire IS military of a single House to Omni Status – that would then be required to initiate the next Succession War … and by then the clans are expected to attack making the forces they do have available to engage the Clans ….
Thus the assertion given are not really that logical as to the time taken to achieve critical mass Omni tech to initiate a war …
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they did not know if any changes to increase the numbers had happened.
This is correct …. However, tyranny of distance remains – stop their logistics fleets – stop their replacement personnel – this is clearly the weak underside of the Clans invasion. By not attacking this shows a complete lack of understanding as to Military tactics and history.
At the minimum this information from when they were with the clans could have been used as a baseline for creating a Clan Depletion Report – a point that is clearly not understood.
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How long was East Germany out of contact with ANYTHING to do with West Germany
Long enough so as to understand technology, economic development, psychological development – Research how the east lived and this will sho you a clear comparison as to how the Clan freeborn live – Russia under Communist rule is a good example – suggest watching Gorky Park / Atomic Blonde / Bridge of Spies.
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luxuries thrown over the wall
Really? Go back and have a look at the distance between the two walls as well as the security forces in between the two walls - then have a look at the towers created so that one side could see their family members on the other side …
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It was all imported. Which still was happening late into the invasion.
And thus the Clans entire Logistics system is their weakest point to destroy them …..
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Comstar was their shoppers
Doubtful that such an ego-centric bunch of warriors would take this route …
ComStar are the Administrators of the World, they are NOT the Clan’s flunky / slaves as being their shoppers would indicate a position of subservience and this was never part of the deal with Focht.
Also if they did then how many Adepts would now be on the side of the partisans of the worlds they have liven on for so many years? And how quickly would they use their HPGs to tell the IS the truth regarding ComSars agreement with the Clans?
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Spartans did not get brainwashed like clan warriors did.
This just proves no research was undertaken …..
Read about their rules growing up – and the minimal food they were given – thus forcing the children to steel (this was expected) and as long as they never got caught this was acceptable – then read about the boy who captured a live fox and hid it underneath his toga when questioned by his teachers he lied – though in so doing the fox scratched him to death …. The boy was held up as a true example as to what was expected from Spartan boys …..
Also Helen of Troy – Spartan!
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the balloon would be hotter than the air around it
Wrong gas for high altitude – research required
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It was not so simple as you want it to sound like there. The weapons would not be swapped just because.
A senior officer can order the point and negate the trial of refusal
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How do you bid in the next assault when your weapons are in Alpha.
You keep assigning the best weapons to each individual winning bid – so that no matter who wins the battle they receive the most efficient weapons to get the job done – they are not assigned to a unit they are part of the cluster commanders inventory to assign as and when she / he wants it!
See no problem here.
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Do you honestly think that one warrior would allow another warrior to get reputation at their expense?
Trent Vs. Jez – to the winner the spoils no matter how underhanded …
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Tyranny of distance is something you didn't care about when saying the FS should have sent all of their forces to the clan line.
Really?
Comparing a six month voyage to that of the may worlds within the IS …. Strange.
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So cheap weapons are the only thing anyone but elite units get
Mass production not cheap …..
Also the amount of mm each vehicle has is what is important not the same type of armor ….
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More elementals can fit into a dropship, and are more likely to survive emergency crashes.
More casualties ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/16/20 02:12 AM
66.74.60.165
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Considering all that is canon is being complained about, one of the least canon material is being promoted as top of the line canon, and not flawed? It was retconned in after the fact. And even then, a lot of it still isn't canon.
Adam Steiner and the 1st Summerset strikers fought the Falcons. That is about limit of what is canon. That is what broad strokes means. It does not mean every last thing in the cartoon was canonized.
The statement was that the number of sibkos never changed in the clans. That statement is false. Doesn't matter how long it takes to graduate, if any do. The fact that the numbers constantly change is the fact. It has happened that none have graduated, and that isn't just things like their dropship malfunctioning. One of the books mentioned the one sibko was doing so poorly, they thought of scrapping that one entirely.
So start checking your 'facts' before putting them up. You would be surprised on just how much you will learn about the game.
Doesn't matter on the Manhattan project. The fact that ALL of the tech advances were expensive when they were being done. And even more to the point, the one engine put in a Zeus was more expensive then a company of assault mechs alone. The produced the SL tech, which cost a fortune to do. The clan tech is far better then the SL tech, so the costs don't negate the effectiveness of those weapons. Even if they didn't do the whole line, there was a few things that would happen no matter what.
Minor issue with the Dragoons being respected by all houses. Jamie still had the war going with the DC at this time. He refused to let the Dragoons do anything for the DC, and only responded to Luthien because Hanse forced it thru the contract. Takashi basically demanded to fight Jamie when they were there. So no. There is issues with that.
And it was said that no matter what, the houses would have demanded the Dragoons turn over their tech at the end of a gun. The houses would fall on them. So what changed your view?
Desperation was more like it for some houses to attend the meeting. And it wasn't just about the Dragoons. It was a way to personally to talk between Theodore and Hanse to get the agreement to fight the clans without being hit in the back side. It was also a way to make sure the FWL was going to supply both all the DC/FRR/FC with refit kits. So it wasn't that politically expensive for the dragoons. Those fighting the clans knew their current ways were not effective. They needed something different.
20 to 30 years? Did you even bother with the returning of the SL weapons and the 3039 war? Oh yeah. They didn't use any to fight that. And there were no clan tech weapons used against each other after the truce. Might as well say the sky turned green and bunnies jumped out of hats and spread winged unicorns across the lands. Any sort of advantage would have brought on the fight. Hell, it would happen even without advanced tech. It technically did when the FS invaded the CC. Omni tech was being used before the truce went into effect. Not that it was good at that point, but the concept was proven.
A company of clan tech mechs could very well turn more then a few battles for the tech users. Something as simple as breaking the assault company can mean the entire unit dies. Taking the ammo depot changes how things go, even if it is just destroying it so the enemy can't use it.
The IS would have tried to hit clan lines if they had the forces and the idea of where they were coming thru. Pirates had hit them, and most died. Only luck allowed the one to gain omni mechs. But even with that, the pirates couldn't do much and they were experts on periphery jump points and raiding supply lines.
Not sure how much Comstar's manipulation of the HPG network prevented such actions from being done successfully.
The clans were taking systems and it was very possible for a group to hit the supply lines, only to return to base and find warships waiting for them. This IS something they had to worry about.
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ghostrider
08/16/20 02:43 AM
66.74.60.165
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East Germany always had contact with West Germany. Even just propaganda broadcasts. There was no absolute isolation with other cultures. And even had contact with many other nations, so they had plenty of examples of what worked and what didn't. The clans did NOT have that same situation. There were NO outside information coming in to the masses. Some leaders seen it, and were disgusted or tried to use it to the political advantage. The Outbound Light is a good example. The Comstar crew was kept quiet and hidden from all the other clan leaders, and sprung on the grand council. The masses didn't know much about it until after the decision was made to go to war.
Think about what was said about the clans. Comstar was there to keep the belligerent clan warriors from hurting and killing the civilians of those worlds. Do you really think they would tell the clans to get their own things, and risk confrontations? And it wasn't like it was anything special. Just increase Comstars orders. It isn't like adepts were out there pushing shopping carts to get enough food for the clan garrison forces. Hell, the clans were less likely to demand high end stuff, as they did not normally have luxury items in the home worlds. Gourmet burgers comes to mind here. Things like that.
So instead of 20 tons of eggs a week, they upped the order to 40 tons or some such crap. It was be surprising if it wasn't all automated, with the only people involved are the inspectors checking to make sure it was all there and not poisoned.
The way the Spartans trained, was not isolated from the entire world. They had contact with other nations, ideas and concepts. They knew their training was harsh, but how did they know this? Oh yeah. Other nations with which to be compared to. Hmmm. Sounds like they had a lot of outside influence on them. It would also be likely the traded with those outside of their little area, so it isn't close to being the same.
Even with gas, the balloon would be hotter then the air around it. Either that, our shine so brightly, that it would be a star in the middle of the day. That is an issue with being up there. And normally, being that high, metalic material tends to be used, so radar or mad sensors would catch it.
A senior office negate a full unit demanding a trial to avoid losing their life line? This isn't as simple as just one unit using it and returning it. And again, the bidding units are not likely to be from the same parent unit, so you would be removing the traditions. Hell, the high commanders may even promote such a fight, as it shows the spirit of traditions is still alive. Each warrior would demand several trials as well. So no. Simply taking them from those that did not win would not happen. Some of those that did not win could well be the last bid. So if needed, they would be stripped of weapons.
Then open your eyes. There are lots of problems there. You can not just remove weapons from one unit to use in another. Any sort of raid would show that your garrison units, ie the ones that won the last bid and are now sitting the next one out, has no way to fight back. This is also not taking into account losing units or even just part of one. Having an arm blown off, destroys the items in that arm. So weapons would be lost. And the most effective weapons? Most clan warriors do NOT modify their rides. It is very possible they will not have it after their current fight. Mechs do get moved around. You may as well stop all bids and just have the one unit do all the fighting. That makes more sense the moving the weapons around to other mechs.
And you said the clans were not changing at that time. Politics were becoming a major force during the invasion, where lies were told more often, to cover poor performance or hide the fact that things did not go well.
6 month travel time. Sounds about right going from one end of the FC to the other. Yet there are no command circuits to speed it up. Yet you expect units on the border of the OA or TC to be on the clan lines before the 2nd or even 3rd wave. Yet the clans, which have Ion-Lithium batteries in their ships, would take an eternity to move the same distance. And yet this logic fail doesn't register?
One ton of normal armor is the same no matter what different vehicles or mechs it goes on. As the game does not go into volume on ground vehicles, like it does jumpships and warships, it is the same stopping power. And having the same armor on everything drops overhead and allows more stocks to be had. Having 20 different armors is like having 20 different engines for units that use them. Now using Ferro armor and such changes the protection, but in the end, it has the same protection value. The older armors don't follow this, as BAR armor doesn't stop as much as normal armor does.
Actually less casualties. Elemental suits are designed more to take punishment then a cockpit of a mech.
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Requiem
08/16/20 09:11 AM
1.158.133.26
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Adam Steiner and the 1st Summerset strikers fought the Falcons. That is about limit of what is canon.
Adam Steiner
Reconnaissance Mission into the Clan OZ;
Succeeded in re-capturing Somerset from the Jade Falcons – AFFC refused to garrison the world;
There is also the issue of Adam’s older brother Andrew as well as the Falcon POW camp, and the discovery of Camelot Command;
Franklin Sakamoto
Son of Theodore Kurita – who’s great-grand daughter Yori Kurita would be appointed as Coordinator of the Draconis Combine.
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number of sibkos
Any major changes to the number of sibkos in order to achieve a greater number of replacement personnel will require a minimum time period of 18-20 years.
Thus unless each Clan’s Force Depletion Report demonstrated heavy casualties against the IS forces – of which has been demonstrated as being impossible – the number of Sikos will not change from that of pre-invasion numbers.
It is only once fighting commences and actual can be placed against projected will the realization sink in that their reinforcement numbers are lacking - and it is only at this stage that amendments to their sibko numbers begin and it is only at this day plus 19 to 21 years will the results of their modifications to sibko numbers begin to bear fruit.
No matter how you look at it the Clan own hubris / belief in their genetic superiority have forced on their forces within the IS an inferior replacement personnel numbers for the first 19-2 years of the Clan War.
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Doesn't matter on the Manhattan project.
In today’s figures this would be $28,789,000,000 spent to create the bomb.
So how many can I get with this?
This quite clearly demonstrates the willingness of governments to spend money to achieve weapons parity, as at the time the Americans and Oppenheimer had a real fear that Germany was nearing the completion of their own bomb.
So how many Clan’s weapons factories can be established when assume this would transpire as is?
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Minor issue with the Dragoons being respected by all houses. Jamie still had the war going with the DC at this time.
Then why did Theodore Kurita and his entire family (including Omika) travel all the way and take part in the Outreach Conference?
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no matter what, the houses would have demanded the Dragoons turn over their tech at the end of a gun. The houses would fall on them. So what changed your view?
Same answer – as stated previously.
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it would require 20 to 30 years minimum to effectively build up a critical mass of new weapons so as to convert the entire IS military of a single House to Omni Status
Receipt of information from Dragoons – Idea stage
Research and development – existing Mech design / new Mech design – minimum 2 Omni - Mechs per Class Light, Medium, Heavy, and Assault, then add in omni for vehicles + fighters + Bombers and also elemental armor;
Planning
Prototyping – Mech, vehicle, Aerospace fighter, elemental etc.
Sourcing materials for production - manufacturing-relates services
Mass production
Refit time for each RCT until all Front line units have been updated
So yes, this is going to take time for a compete update of new technology within each individual House to create a critical mass of new weapons from which to go to war with …
3039 start of SL weapons – this is where the IS goes beyond this – though I really do not understand why the Houses didn’t begin the concept of Omnis on their Own when you consider the cost / Logistics / military flexibility advantages;
Companies are for raids
Full out wars requires a total refit …
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The IS would have tried to hit clan lines if they had the forces and the idea of where they were coming thru. Pirates had hit them, and most died.
Outside the IS
And yet no one thought of taking them once they got into the inner sphere and reviewing their logs or how about the Bug-Eye – as it can jump alongside other jumpshis and arrive approximately 28 KM apart and slowly track the jumpships route.
Or you could just search system by system based upon probability.
Inside the IS
Supply ships will have to go to every world the Clans have captured as well as to the front lines – rotes, timing schedule are available as missing a drop-ship landing at a clan base would be a little hard to miss – thus arrival time and departure time is available as well as the time it takes to reach their Jumpship at the jump point - any insignificant world would not have warship protection …. Making them vulnerable to attack.
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East Germany always had contact with West Germany.
Look at it from the point of view of an anthropologist studding a new society ….the extreme differences are quite obvious as to social / economic differences and to how this relates to their psyche of vales / needs / wants / desires etc …
This is just identifying the Target Market characteristics of both and then extrapolating what happens when the two are merged ….
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Comstar was there to keep the belligerent clan warriors from hurting and killing the civilians of those worlds. Do you really think they would tell the clans to get their own things, and risk confrontations?
This is about respect!
This is basic Alpha Male aggression technique – ie the Bully – what happens when you do not stand up to a bully from day one? You are going to be picked on day in day out and be seen as nothing more than their slave ….
So see what happens if you do not gain a position of equality when confronting a society that is based upon the premise of superiority even within its own society ….
If ComStar doesn’t gain their respect they will be seen as little more than a client who will one day become a slave …. And this is not a good place to be in ….
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The way the Spartans trained, was not isolated from the entire world.
Continue the research – yes it was …. They were one of the first to have a state sponsored education system for all, where as everyone else had to learn on their own or with the tutors their parents paid … so they looked at everyone else’s ideas and threw it in the garbage … so no outside influence at all – they created an entirely new way of life, politics etc.
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Even with gas, the balloon would be hotter then the air around it.
You are using Helium gas! As for materials – don’t you think that by 3050 a new light weight material that can be created so that it mimic’s the sky is available? Also different materials have different scattering effects when it comes to radar – radar requires a radar signature to bounce back and an amplifier to increase the signal for the operators screen then it is just a question of the Doppler effect for speed and direction.
However if the waved are deflected in such a way that few / none are reflected back in the sources direction you will have stealth in 1970’s / production 1981 of the F-117 Nighthawk was produced why not in the 3050’s?
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A senior office negate a full unit demanding a trial to avoid losing their life line? This isn't as simple as just one unit using it and returning it. And again, the bidding units are not likely to be from the same parent unit, so you would be removing the traditions.
In a situation where logistics has caused a problem with available consumable weapons – it will have to come down to which pilot gets the consumables and for everyone else energy based weapons.
Otherwise you are just depleting an already strained inventory.
And this is the situation the clans will have to work out if the IS is able to hobble their Logistics fleets – even by 25 to 50% reduction this will cause issues.
Remember the next supply run could be six months distant or you begin reaving the Clan next door – something the IS would enjoy also – getting your enemies to fight each other is always entertaining.
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lies were told more often, to cover poor performance or hide the fact that things did not go well.
How well did that work out for the USA forces in Vietnam?
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6 month travel time. Sounds about right going from one end of the FC to the other.
What is the travel time from the closest military depot to that of a front line unit requiring logistics support?
This is the time line – apples with apples not oranges.
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Yet the clans, which have Ion-Lithium batteries in their ships, would take an eternity to move the same distance. And yet this logic fail doesn't register?
Question – How long did it take for Trent to travel back to the Clan Home Worlds from the IS and from there back to the IS again?
Ans: 6 months each way.
So maybe the new wiz-bang batteries never made their way into transports ….
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One ton of normal armor is the same no matter what different vehicles or mechs it goes on.
And yet if applied to a reduced area the thickness of the armor must increase to accommodate a smaller area for the same weight.
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Actually less casualties. Elemental suits are designed more to take punishment then a cockpit of a mech.
That may be so but how does the human body react to being violently impacted with another object – my bet not so good – internal injuries, bones broken, concussion if it was just a light fall but a full on strike there is nothing that is going to survive.
Have a look at F-1 cockpits and how they are designed to survive a crash …. Hit hard enough and even they will not survive.
Elementals may have great armor – but hit hard enough with enough kinetic energy and their organs / body will turn to paste.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/16/20 09:11 AM)
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ghostrider
08/16/20 01:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stick to the statement. You said the number of sibkos never changed. The fact it takes so long, and doesn't guarantee results the leaders want isn't the issue of the statement. So no. It isn't set up to rapidly replace lost warriors. Harvesting is about the only way, and even then, you lose more doing so. Yes, you can open up for freeborns to test in, as well as drop the requirements some, but that isn't going to be a wide solution. It may well be that any that do get accepted that way are the first to be sent into the end battle.
The price of the nuke isn't relavant, as it was not something that would be mass produced. It was not something every tank was issued. The fusion engine costs so much, and that is after years of production. For vehicles, it would be easier to just use ICE. The need for heat sinks for energy weapons as well as the BS of the weight, has some using the fusion engine. The clan weapons would be widely used in any combat carrier, including turrets and such. Which also forces the question of why double sinks only work in a few things, and a turret isn't one of them. They can very well get the equipment to get them working into a building.
But the cost to make them is nothing compared to how much could be saved by having them. Imagine a clan erppc carrying Awesome, or the SRM/LRM with clan launchers. Those would be far worth making the tech. Even the Salamander using the half weight clan launchers would be that much more dangerous. Using it properly, the Archer becomes a very dangeous mech again, with endo steel being used to allow more ammo for doubling the number of launchers. The range of the pulse lasers would more then make up for the cost, as now you could fire them at a greater distance then the SL version. So no. Cost would not be a factor. Even the excuse of stopping to make warships does the same sort of thing.
Necessity is why the Kurita's attended the meeting. Not just to learn about the clans in better detail and how to be more efficient in beating them, but to talk to the other house lords and get things worked out in person. Using diplomats runs the risk of the diplomat having some issues and fouling up a deal that would have gone thru. They had to be more personal in order to gain some better, lasting respect between the leaders. It is one thing to talk to someone and never get to know anything about them over the coms, but quite another to find out they are very much a living being and share a lot of your own desires and fears. The house lords inherited the 'hatred' of each other from their ancestors. Not much in the current age had added to that.
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ghostrider
08/16/20 01:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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There are a few things that come to mind on why omnis were not designed by the houses, and most come down to the companies that make the mechs themselves. Mainly, they would not want the cost of coming up with the plans to do so. They are making money doing the same old boring designs, and most do not make other weapon systems. So if you just make a Waps mech, you focus on MLs and SRM 2's You probably wouldn't bother with say a ppc or autocannon.
The Mongoose came the closest, but yet no one really thought about how efficient it would be to just remove one weapon and slap in another. They don't really care how much the customer pays for upkeep, unless they have a contract to do so themselves, then they want to make money.
An major example of this is the gas engine carberator. They had some ready to be produced in the 70's and earlier, but the oil companies did everything they could to prevent the models that were designed to allow the big v8s of the time to get gas mileage as the small economy cars get today. They prevented the patents from going thru and bought up all the designs to make sure they never seen the light of day. Synthetic lubricants are another thing that is cutting into their profit. No need for oil when you have things like that. It is also why electric cars had such an uphill battle. Now imagine this being played out across the entire production of a mech. And the government reps would be getting paid by these people to make sure any laws don't get passed that would change their status quo. Standardization is the last thing that would stop omnis without a major reason. Donal PPCs use specific brackets to fit their product. The Krauss PPC maker does not want to change to use the Donal companies mounting, cooling, and power points. Where the omni pod is supposed to deal with that, it does have it's limits. There would be SPECIFIC pods that would have to fit certain weapons from manufacturers. Not something any company wants to deal with or pay for. And copyrights/patents come into play. And those would never be removed as it allows companies to make money and prevent competition.
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ghostrider
08/16/20 01:47 PM
66.74.60.165
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How many Bugeyes did the IS have at any time? It was an SL design, and the houses had 0 during the clan invasion. Now if they did have some, then Trent was not really necessary in finding the clan home worlds. They could have started following the clans shipping lines, once they found them. But again, the lack of resources would cause issues.
Look at the Germany example from a realistic view. They were never out of contact with ANY other nation. The clans had the clans, which all had the same basic ideas. There was no one saying that freeborns should be treated in certain ways, except disdain and as a third rate citizen. Failed trueborns were only treated a little better, as they were iron womb conceived. But they still failed, so were less the human. Both sides of Germany took information from those they were 'allied' to, and still did not have a one government fits all countries template to follow. Differences were more then just the color of the flag sort of thing. The clans only had the clans to draw any comparison to. It is a slight of a surprise that the freeborns didn't try to all merge into the few clans that were not as nasty to them as the rest. But then national pride has some effect there.
Yeah. The people that back the bully get picked on a lot. The alpha male does not exist in the public face for Comstar with the exception of their people facing local law violations. In Comstar's eye, the more the clans relied on them, the more the clans would fall once they made their move. Where are you going to turn to when you need 20 tons of eggs each day? Without having to even try to figure that out, the clans wouldn't know. Especially if they had to have them shipped in. The entire HPG network was theirs as no one else knew how to operate them properly.
And the clans hating normal jobs would be enough to avoid causing issues with the people that are doing them. Command personnel would be the main ones dealing with Comstar. The single mechwarrior would not have much contact.
So the Spartans only dealt with Spartans? Not even close. They dealt with plenty of others, which all influenced their decisions to a point. This is what isn't being understood here. There was outside influence on them. The clans did not have any.
Now comes the kicker to the supply problem. WHICH warriors would get the supplies and which would be relegated to being sent back out, removed from being a warrior? Barring trials, there would still be fights, as a true warrior will not just give their weapons to someone else. You give me your supplies, not the other way around for the clan way of thinking. To try and say otherwise, would be breaking with the clans traditions, ie logic hole.
Actually, those that got away with the lies became rich, while those that got caught, or were successfully made a scape goat, not so much. Rich interests is why the war started, but it was said to be something else. The clans started doing this very thing, and for those with connections, got promoted for such actions. So skills stated become the second way to get ahead. Being a good liar with connections started becoming the first. A complete reversal of the way of the clans.
Moving supplies, or moving troops. The time it takes to get from one place to another does not change this. Now with the way the story is set up, the clans were not supposed to have the proper supplies near them. They gloss over it with the having to scale back the assaults and such, but other then that, there isn't much seen to support this. Given the lack of ships the Falcons had with them, one assault per unit was about max. So when you only have 20 ships you can jump with, 20 is the max places you can hit. You can't hit 40 places using the same jumpships.
How important was the ship Trent was on? Oh. They were sending failed and disgraced warriors back home. They were low priority compared to others. It was likely, though not printed, that the jumpship they were using, would have been used for priority ships, had they needed them. Troop ships are not great for cargo carrying. A Mammoth would have priority.
You do understand the concept of armor points? The less armor you have, the thinner it is going to be. Yet the game doesn't deal with HOW you take a standard piece of armor and shave off some of it to work on a unit that doesn't use as much. Saying it is cut to a smaller size doesn't really work well. But to keep information easy, they don't have different listings for armor used on different units. The Pegasus is supposed to use Hexigonal plates, yet they are the only ones to do so in the TROs.
The armors are not only set up to help absorb impact, but the Harjel as well as the meds that are automatically injected would help survival rates. Also, the elemental armor is more likely to get pushed into dirt then a mech will, if something lands on it. The controls are another issue. It is suggested that the arms of an elemental do NOT contain the pilots arms. If true, then the risk of ripping an arm off is less likely. Yet some show the pilots arms being put into a sleeve. Not sure if they have the ability like halo to lock up the suit or not.
The Harjel would help prevent the pilot from dealing with things like a loss of atmosphere, or poisonous chemicals. So one for one, the elemental is more likely to survive a crash then a mech warrior.
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Requiem
08/17/20 08:18 AM
1.158.133.26
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It may well be that any that do get accepted that way are the first to be sent into the end battle.
Not likely, and give up the honor of first into battle ….
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The price of the nuke isn't relevant
Conceptually this demonstrates a states willingness to commit large funds to a military project in order to protect the realm.
Remember this is the R&D before it is mass produced.
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Necessity is why the Kurita's attended the meeting. Not just to learn about the clans in better detail and how to be more efficient in beating them
And how did that work out? TPTB allowed the DC to win how many battles? Did the House Lords decide to re-establish the Star League and the SLDF?
Only positive was that the FC and DC came to a non-aggression policy – however as per your past writings you would not allow the units to move as you would still not trust the other side to uphold their agreement.
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There are a few things that come to mind on why omnis were not designed by the houses, and most come down to the companies that make the mechs themselves.
Please point out where a company built a weapon without adhering to military requirements for new weapons systems as per their specifications?
The Great House sets the rules not the companies that make the existing systems ….
The absence of mass Omni designs within each House is beyond ludicrous from every point of view ….
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How many Bug-eyes did the IS have at any time?
The real question is could they make them?
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But again, the lack of resources would cause issues.
By 3050 this argument no longer holds water – please do explain how all the Mech / vehicle / fighter / power-armor / warships were manufactured if there is a lack of resources?
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Look at the Germany example from a realistic view. They were never out of contact with ANY other nation.
Still not looking at this correctly …. When the wall fell what occurred to the average citizen? Open Vs Closed society …..
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The entire HPG network was theirs as no one else knew how to operate them properly.
Except for the Clans who did have their own people and did have people who could not only run them but also fix them and improve upon them …. So if the Clans decide to get rid of ComStar Adepts (permanently) because they had no respect for them at all and thought they were just freeborn whom they thought they had the right to discipline at any time, they will still have people to run them for them for the Clans ….
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So the Spartans only dealt with Spartans? Not even close.
Try again …
The City States of Greece are a very good example of the Clan system ….
The Spartans system was totally their own no one had a system anywhere near theirs ….. there was no influence from any other city state …
Research required ….
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WHICH warriors would get the supplies and which would be relegated to being sent back out, removed from being a warrior?
Why have a khan then?
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So skills stated become the second way to get ahead. Being a good liar with connections started becoming the first. A complete reversal of the way of the clans.
So the clans had social generals also? Then their ability to wage war should have fallen as did the Lyrans.
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They were sending failed and disgraced warriors back home. They were low priority compared to others.
Problem with this is that you need all your clan ships to move at a rapid speed so that they can be resupplied as quickly as possible, and return to the IS as soon as possible, so that they can resupply their invasion fleet asap, so that they can win and become the il-Clan.
This is a race remember ….
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You do understand the concept of armor points?
Points on a light Mech Vs Assault Mech – the difference due to the weight in armor allowed ?
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It is suggested that the arms of an elemental do NOT contain the pilots arms. If true, then the risk of ripping an arm off is less likely
Go to https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Elemental_(Battle_Armor)
Then go to gallery at the bottom of the page
Then tap on Elemental Cross Section image to increase the size of the picture
Notice anything about the pilots’ arms? Also notice how cramped the armor is for the pilot?
This is like jousting armor and a lance – your body is going to take severe damage if struck by a kinetic weapon or have the rules of physics once more been suspended just like nukes?
Sorry but no a severe hit by a drop-ship hitting the surface of a planet containing elementals they will NOT survive …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/17/20 12:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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The nations are not one big unified entity. There were plenty of others that would send forces across the border and hit the enemy. And it would not be just criminal elements like the Black Dragon Society, but province lords as well. They could move some, but not all as was suggested that started that whole discussion.
Weapon specs get ignored quite a bit. More then a few units were produced that did NOT meet requirements for what they were designed for. I want to say the Cameron warship was one of them. It was sent in for revision as more and more things got added, or couldn't happen in it's current form. As for weapons, the government says build this weapon, they don't give you specific dimensions to how the internals are. IF they did, they could make it themselves, which no one wants. The military could very well suffer massived coupes as no one would know how much of what was built.
Companies themselves would not always have the same brackets on the same weapon. A PPC on the Warhammer, would not fit on say the Zeus or the Marauder. They require their own set up, and the internals would not be the same to allow simple change of brackets. Power and coolant lines would see to that. This is true with all weapon types. For the IS, a lot of companies would just refuse to change their designs. Even the DC/CC don't forces weapon companies to do it their way or destroy the company.
In the real world, the company that won the contract for one of the 'newer' fighters could not have the VTOL jet do VTOL without having mechanics physically removing the armor around the landing fan. They should have been disqualified, but instead won the contract and was allowed to try and fix it before the jet went into production. It was still not reliable when they were ordered.
The IS did not have the blueprints for the Bugeyes, but I think the thrusters and possibly the compact core would prevent it. Granted the state of electronics in the game would mean even the clans couldn't produce it, but that can be debated.
You left out the two big ones needed to move units. Dropships and Jumpships. Resources that even though did increase in production was still required for keeping worlds alive.
How many warships were produced? Maybe 30 total in the entire IS? Well, not including Comstar. But as said before, the developers did not keep things consistent with numbers. The huge increase in mechs before the 4th war, then during the clan invasion does not match their own abilities. All the new designs that came rolling off for the clan invasion far out paces the facilities they are said to have had. Defiance miraculously expanded enough lines to keep up with old mech production, put out new upgrades and new mechs, yet did not seem capable of that many when it was made by the SL. Certain materials can only be made in space factories, yet the amount required by the new surge, would mean those facilities were not destroyed as previously reported. Things like endo steel were supposedly lost due to the factories being destroy, not because they couldn't get workers to them.
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ghostrider
08/17/20 12:51 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Germans still had information on how things were done. Doesn't matter if it was closed or not, the average citizen had some news of what the other side was doing. And the countries that supported the other side was even more well known. They may not have known how to make coconut cream pie, they did know that the other side has certain luxuries or lack them. They knew those states that supported their side had a different way of doing things. For the common man, the west was a little more desirable, while the rich liked the east a little more as they could use their wealth to force the common man to work for cheaper and not have a chance to even compete against the rich. This is not suggesting all would be like this.
But they still had the information of a different way of doing things. And they were not isolated and taught that there was no other way for several hundreds years.
What does the clans have to do with Comstars relative immunity from punishment from the IS? Hanse tried and failed. The only other house that would support him was allied to him and already working with him. The other three did not have the large issues with comstar until they found out Walterly had be working with the clans. So again. What does the clans have to do with Comstar not being punishable at that time?
So nothing like what type of weapons or armor they used was influenced by other entities in that time? Or the even the need for the warriors to be trained under such harsh conditions? The state in which they did things did not influence the concept of schools and such? If you think not, then you seem out of contact with things. Just the shape of the shields or how long spears were, was influence from outside of their state. What they ate, which also helps get into and keep a fit shape comes into it. The spartans did NOT invent the advancement of tech that they used. Some things were refined to their specifics, but they were influenced by others.
A khan is the general leader in charge. They are not going to destroy traditions because they didn't pay attention to what was needed. Modify things yes. But they would not stop the trials just to allow a specific few to fight in all the combats. To even attempt it would be to admit they did not know what they were doing, and therefor was not the superior person they wanted to be known as. And a khan can be challenged by warriors. Most did not go that far, as it was more to bring an issue to the attention of the khans, but they would be challenged.
Did you not read when Vlad showed the one Falcon leader was only in position because of politics? Yes. The clans were getting social generals into position. But not all were generals. The entire Touman was starting to have inadequate warriors being promoted.
The clan leaders were not in a rush at first to get things going. They though the IS would fall, so that meant their plans were not flawed. Only when it got to where the 'superior' clans started losing to the Wolves that they realized they screwed up. Conventional clan supply numbers were NOT going to cut it. IF not for the PGCs and second lines frivolous amounts of unnecessary supplies, the front line would have been unable to keep going.
They are far more likely to survive then a mech jockey in a mech. The entire armor distributed the damage more evenly then the seat belts in a mech seat. The fact that it is tighter, helps to prevent bouncing around into the shell, which whiplash is a nasty effect that happens. Then you have the major issue of elementals being in better shape to handle such trauma. Will it hurt them? Not a doubt. Will they survive it better then a mech warrior? That is not in doubt. Even outside the armor for both, the elemental is more likely to survive. Conditioning helps with that.
I could say a normal soldier will survive better in a crash then someone that can't stand even a small fall without breaking bones.
Oh yeah. The elementals is more like to be able to gain some control over his suit before they hit, so can lessen the blow by rolling with it. Not all the time but enough to skewer the results.
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Requiem
08/18/20 06:42 AM
1.158.133.26
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The nations are not one big unified entity.
None of the nations in the IS can be considered unified – they are made up of various factions.
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Weapon specs
Standardizing weapons for any House’s weapons allow for greater logistical security – brackets are just and add on.
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The IS did not have the blueprints for the Bugeyes.
The Adean Dulcimer – owned by Interstellar Expeditions; and the possibility of Industrial espionage;
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Dropships and Jumpships. Resources that even though did increase in production was still required for keeping worlds alive. How many warships were produced? Maybe 30 total in the entire IS?
First, 30 in what time period? A year how about 10 years?
Second on what basis is this being determined – what evidence as to the speed of manufacture?
Third, as stipulated many times in the past there is no evidence as to the amount of Jumpships / Dropships in the IS – the only thing hat comes close is the 4th Succession War Atlas and again to interpret this a great deal of liberties must be taken as to type of ships available …..
So again as there is no real evidence no one can say for an absolute certainty …..
And as this alt’s primary mission is to add a bit more life to an invasion that only recognizes minimal use of military by the FC – amendments must be made … assumptions must be made ….. and based upon my assumptions I am going to keep with the program as is ….
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Germany
Closed Society Vs Open Society – information is irrelevant – consider the shopping habits of the former east as they went to the west – this is the problem consumerism / access to new ideas / access to new recreation facilities will shatter the Clans Freeborn sense of identity with the Clans – it is inevitable, more and more will run away leaving the warriors to fend for themselves. Basic Psychology, when exposed to a open western culture ….
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What does the clans have to do with Comstars relative immunity from punishment from the IS?
Comprehension of what was written ….
My Quote: “So if the Clans decide to get rid of ComStar Adepts (permanently) because they had no respect for them at all and thought they were just freeborn whom they thought they had the right to discipline at any time, they will still have people to run them for them for the Clans.”
If the clans have no respect for ComStar Adepts will this provide them with immunity form CLAN punishment if ordered to do something and they say no?
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The spartans did NOT invent the advancement of tech.
And the clans got theirs from the SL and their society from Nicholoas … who for the better part of his life, at that statge, had resided in Moscow …
Have a look at the underlining principles that forms their society ….
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A khan is the general leader in charge.
Traditions are malleable – just as the Ghost Bear Freeborn when theirs were taken away …
The Khan can make orders as and when they like and for whatever reason …. Otherwise they are not a Khan ….
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Did you not read when Vlad showed the one Falcon leader was only in position because of politics?
And what happened to him?
Question is why couldn’t the IS do the same thing if there were so many social generals within the Falcons?
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The clan leaders were not in a rush at first to get things going. They though the IS would fall, so that meant their plans were not flawed.
Really? …. A complete lack of understanding as to the military and logistical requirements of an operation 6 months distant from any support facilities and this is not flawed?
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They are far more likely to survive then a mech jockey in a mech.
Ever considered the egg drop science experiment from a great height ? try about 10 stories …..
Second consider the amount of effort taken by NASA to put a vehicle on Mars …..
Their insides would be paste ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 11:44 AM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. So now that we agree upon the fact that there are more then a few factions in each nation. Now. Some will send out forces to attack their neighbors, even if they are part of the same nation. Moving all your forces, may not include those forces the factions have, and they will use 'pirates' to hit the enemy. This would include mercs as well. Some love this sort of work, as it allows them to sack locations and get away with crimes.
Personal guards seem to be immune from the nations rulers to be sent elsewhere. So with this, raids and full scale invasion will happen during the NAP between the FC and DC. But nations know this. No matter what, they can not leave the border unguarded. Under guarded is very probable.
For the IS, do you think all Medium lasers fit in the same area? And they all have the same connections? Coolant couplers and jackets? Targeting sensors in the same location?
Not even close. Mounting points are spread all over the place as specific manufacturers had to place such things in locations that were not the same as the last unit. Sometimes even a different model of the same mech would require a new set up. The does not mean all weapons are completely different. Companies does license out their designs, so there can be some standards, but when a company makes it's own weapons, they tend to make sure you have to buy their weapon to replace it. I use brackets as a general term, as they are actually easier to make then having to drill new bolt holes, tap them out and then install the unit. Which is pretty much what jury rigging units do now to put in a different manufacturers, or even different model component in.
Weapons are slightly easier to make a standard, then say the actuators of a mech. Designers haven't gone back to 'redesign' most of the older mechs to get a standard. Too costly, as well as causing major disruptions to supply lines.
Now it is stupid that someone didn't figure out how to make something like an omni pod where you could just slide in a jacket style unit into a mech that would contain what is needed to install any currently known weapon, such as the ML. I can understand keeping it limted to one weapon type, as a full torso pod would be impossible for all but the manufacturer, as they would need to redesign the entire structure.
This would require rerouting so much, then an outside company would be better off just making their own unit. Things like the coolant, power, electronics, as well as structure, myomer connection points, and other things would need to be redone.
Then with border factories, they do change hands from time to time, and you would have to retool them from the enemies set up. Leaving it as is, allows you to make the units there, without having all this crap going on. That also doesn't leave out retraining techs, as well as trying to get the new stuff installed, and hopefully, it doesn't require a redesign of the assembly line. Tight locations may well cause a different sized component to not fit without issues.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 12:05 PM
66.74.60.165
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So the person that had it made the Bugeyes? Or was it just the company that originally did, and the plans are buried under a glow pile of rubble that was the office? In canon, I have not heard of anyone having the plans for it, but for the alt, that is something that can be made up on the fly. Which is why canon and alt do not compare.
The electronics on it would be something any house would love to have. They don't need the warship so much as the components.
Figure within 10 years of the clan invasion date. There were not that many warships made in the IS, with a few being said were discontinued after 3 or so of them were made. Warships were the top expense for the houses. Yet a pair of them would more then make up for the costs of getting clan tech set up. Yeah, an clan erppc is more expensive then an IS one, but the ability to have more power at a greater distance is how the clans slammed the IS, Taking out light and even medium mechs before they could close would definitely be worth it. A single clan ERPPC taking out a 1.5 million c-bill Locust would be definitely worth the extra cost. Clan ultra 20's on a Demolisher? Yeah. That is very scary. The LRM/SRM has been put forth a few times. But as said, support equipment such as the double heat sinks is worth far more. All units with just the doubles running cooler, means more sustained fire. This is what helps win battles against numbers. You fire more often, means you are likely to hit more often. Not always the case as range does affect things, but instead of a normal ml, you have and erml installed. Now you hit at the range of a standard large laser. You outrange most of the normal weapons used, ie the standard ml, srm, ac 20 and such. So it is more then worth the cost to research and build. The fact that the NAIS had ALREADY done so negates a lot of the research. But this would make future wars less likely to threaten the IS as a whole.
This does apply to warships as well, Monitors especially. They could intercept dropships with the cargo of whatever in them, including nukes and such. So more then a few invasions would be stopped before they even get to the planet. That also goes for any house trying to invade, but brings up the counter issue of those that have it, are at a great advantage over those that don't have it. The clan invasion showed that, and the developers used it to hurt the FS in the future with it.
Now what finally forced East Germany to finally allow the merger? Russia was slowly going into a major problem with funds. If they did not have the west there to show them how to make that money, they would not have had any influence to allow them to join. What if the west had the same ideas and attitude of the East and their allies? Nothing but the names of those in charge? How different would that have been? There are a few forms of communism as well as capitalism. If the world was all on way, how do you know another method is better then the one already installed? Much like the saying good/evil duality can survive without the other. Not possible. Good needs evil to show what not to do, and be used as a measuring stick, while evil needs good for the same concept.
And then the suppression of all thoughts for decades without anything outside to even try to assist removing it. This ends the belief that something better is out there. No contact what so ever. Part of why the Dark Caste rose and became a problem. They offered a slightly less oppressive way of doing things, but in the end it wasn't much better then the normal clans.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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The original statement about comstars immunity was that the IS could not just dissolve them before they did. The clans probably did have issues with warriors getting upset because of the adepts telling them they are not going to listen, but again. Both sides leaderships said to avoid this issues, and had set up who can tell who what to do. The only time a normal warrior would have major contact with the adepts is any guards left. And even them, they had their orders from their superiors. As it sounds, the clans left comstar to guard their facilities.
So back to the original question. Before operation Scorpion, the IS did not have the ability to properly run the HPG network. As stated, they kept the important ones running, but not all.
How much of the tech did the spartans buy from others? Food? Other items? Food is very important to making a society the way it is. Having to rely on outside sources causes issues, but it does cause you to focus on getting the most nutrition for the amount. Their diets would reflect this. This goes for the ores they had access to in order to make weapons and shields. The training programs would be built to what they had to train at. You are not going to be able to train for combat in snow in the area. Countries around you, do force you to have to have so many troops in areas, or risk being invaded. Culture and education comes from a far as well as your own lands.
The khans have a lot of power, but they can not just decide to change things on a whim. They do need to keep the backing of their clans, otherwise, what would prevent the crusaders from just attacking the wardens and wiping them completely out? They had the numbers and power to do so before the war. As well as after. When the Wolf/Falcon refusal war was done, both clans should have been taken out. And it would have been the best thing for those still left. So why didn't the khans just decide to do something like a continuous run against them? Skirt the trial of annihilation or absorbtion? Then call for it, once they could not resist the calls? Then you need to win the bid for the trial. But you could push the bid to a point that would cause the attacking clans to lose or set them up for the same thing? It was not the clans ways of thinking at that point, but one that could very well have come up.
The issue of the social generals in the clans, especially the crusaders come to light AFTER the clan war. It was a way to change the clans from being the honor bound invaders, to become the very thing the Psy-ops would change them into. The power hungry king makers. The power of plenty does that to all eventually. Soon, what you have isn't enough, so you head out and take what you can. Sound like the whole basis for the game?
They were flawed. But the clan leaders didn't see that. They did not believe the reports that were sent about how the IS would fight. They believed in their superiority, and knew in their own delusions, they would never be beaten. And it was written that way to make the war a war, not just a blitz to Terra.
How many elementals have jets on their suits? How many original clan omnis had jets on their units? Not installed afterwards, but stock?
Funny thing about those very crashes, as more survive then would be expected.
Though it sounds like you expect them to be shot out like a gauss slug. That isn't really the case all the time. If they jump, the elementals in working power armor do have ways to slow them down. Not so with most omnis. If they remain onboard, they are more likely to survive as the armor will protect them from the more damaging effects. A mech warrior in a mech does have the head armor to help, but being slammed around in the harness would be worse then the elemental armor. The armor contacts are more spread out, so less likely to just rip off a limb or cut into you.
So the statement stands. An elemental in their armor is far more likely to survive a crash then a mechwarrior in their mech.
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Requiem
08/18/20 04:53 PM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
there are more than a few factions in each nation.
And yet what is their lethality? What is their access to inter-planetary transport capabilities?
As stated if Hanse Davion is utilizing the majority of both Lyran and Suns transport capabilities to ensure the safety of both Houses in an effort to initiate a massive response to the Clans – what transport capabilities remain?
Ans – only the illegal hiding from the law as mercenaries are known as well as their access to transport – and leverage can be applied upon the mercenary board to inform all such mercenaries if they step out of line during said time of crisis they had best find the deepest darkest hole and bury themselves or the repercussions of them ever finding a contract again within the FC or the DC will become non-existent – Persona non grata.
QED – if enough forces remain within the Houses to act as a ready reaction force to any pirate activity as well as the reserve units on the majority of worlds are simultaneously activated the propensity for damage by these nefarious groups becomes somewhat limited - especially if our first response is not to engage them but to acquire their transport – Jump-ship through the use of naval marines, who are trained explicitly for the endeavor.
Once world of such action becomes common knowledge how many pirates will continue their actions? Very few if any …. problem solved.
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For the IS, do you think all Medium lasers fit in the same area?
For each House’s military forces - they should have been brought together so that the majority of parts can be interchangeable. Allowing each military industrial corporation to maintain their sovereignty is something that would not occur – uniformity of spare parts – especially with regards to weapons.
This was a clear issue with regards to Germany WW2 as well as all military going forward.
And again if you are in a universe of depleting resources the idea of standardizing parts so as to maintain operational efficiency is again a no brainer with regards to logistics control.
And again in a society of diminishing logistics the idea of creating an onmi vehicle that could have interchangeable weapons pods is again the next logical development of the BattleMech – in my opinion with the introduction of the Helm Memory Core / or even just prior 4th Succession War NAIS should have developed the IS’s first Omni (tie in with Wolfs Dragoons last supply run returning in 3020) and from there it should have snowballed to every House. < For me I created a Crusader Omni.>
And thus by the time of the arrival of the Clans their outdated information <now 30 years old> would not include the IS’s development and use of their own omni tech.
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So the person that had it made the Bugeyes?
Where did this canon version of the Bug-eye come from? ….. another black hole in history? … another time jump? … and if it was known why didn’t Comstar try to destroy it as the technology contained within would pose a threat to them – so why didn’t they try to destroy it?
Too many back-story black holes that should have been explained at the time of its reintroduction ….
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Figure within 10 years of the clan invasion date, there were not that many warships made in the IS
There is a previous forum on this … in that the FC alone could have produced about 15-20 warships every 18 months with just what was available in 3050 (plus taking into account the CC no longer exists)?
Thus after 10 years who knows what the FC could be manufacturing if they have also established new hidden world naval construction sites …..
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But this would make future wars less likely to threaten the IS as a whole.
Then why have wars prior to the arrival of the Clans where all weapons are standardized?
Yes there can be a period of inequality – but there should also be a period of equality
Thereafter it is just a question of R&D development as to the introduction of new weapons and the period until they become standardized and new weapons are introduced and the cycle goes on and on
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Now what finally forced East Germany to finally allow the merger? Russia was slowly going into a major problem with funds.
Have a look at consumer R&D …. Access to new technology, access to markets, and their own philosophy which did not allow for development / introduction of westernized goods and services is what finally brought them down. Stagnation Vs western development ….
The same could be said for the Clans … in a society that does not allow for excesses when introduced to a society that has many and diverse how is the average freeborn going to act?
Something the game never even bothered to touch on because the reality is that the majority of the Clans freeborn would have rebelled and gone over to the Inner Sphere …. Because there they would have been respected and they would have had a far more higher quality of life …. The Clans only offer repression and hardship, the Is offers a western style of living of freedom ….. their own philosophical way f life is what would have brought them low …. Keeping people in an effective bondage and expecting them to remain there …. Yes for a time they would … but over time when they become de-programmed you can expect mass exodus of their freeborn from Clan society to IS …..
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The only time a normal warrior would have major contact with the adepts is any guards left.
However, the problem is that the Guards ARE the Clan Warriors - ComStar Adepts don’t have ComGuatd – so that leaves only the Clan Warriors themselves to be the guards ….
And on a planet where the majority of guards is a trinary of Mechs this becomes a serious issue of who is really guarding whom?
But this still doesn’t change the subject – Khans are not allowed to interfere with tradition – and disciplining freeborn in one of the duties of a warrior so again if the average clan warrior has no respect for an IS ComStar Adept they will disciple them as well – so again how long until the ConStar Adepts start helping the resistence once they have been beaten down?
Also there is a period of time prior to this agreement with ComStar – how were they treated in this time period? And how would this experience cloud their views going forward ….
Again the story does not delve deep enough to fully comprehend the situation on every world ….
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So back to the original question. Before operation Scorpion, the IS did not have the ability to properly run the HPG network. As stated, they kept the important ones running, but not all.
How many shadow wars have ComStar gotten into with the Houses throughout the years? ….. contingency planning by every House would say that every House would have a plan in place for the day ComStar finally overstepped their position and had to be removed …. Their position as a Neutral arbitrator had finally worn too thin …. The canon war of 3039 and the previous shadow war with the FC proved that their time was near to an end …. No house could allow them to station their troops on their worlds – this is the SLDF all over again and is quite an intolerable situation …..
Andin contingency plans would have been put in place – Hanse Davion – would have ensured that there was a plan in place …
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How much of the tech did the spartans buy from others? Food? Other items? Food is very important to making a society the way it is.
Again immaterial but if required review their Helots …
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Culture and education comes from a far as well as your own lands.
Remember the age in which they lived …. Greek city States and Persians …. Also remember the massive amount of cultural misunderstandings these two groups had over the issue of providing ground and water at a religious event and what each side thought it to mean …. They clearly did not understand each other.
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The khans have a lot of power, but they can not just decide to change things on a whim.
They only need the backing of the named warriors within their political group. And as long as this was the most powerful militarily they ruled with absolute authority …. As long as they didn’t upset other Clans who would attack them because of the decisions made ….
Again warring city states …..
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The issue of the social generals in the clans, especially the crusaders come to light AFTER the clan war.
And yet how long has the political age within the clans been continuing ….. when did the Political Century start again? So the rise of the social general would have started here as well …. From 2947 onwards …. So how many were named because of political alliances rater than skill?
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They were flawed. But the clan leaders didn't see that. They did not believe the reports that were sent about how the IS would fight.
They were also out of date by 30 years – last Dragoon supply run was in 3019-3020.
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How many elementals have jets on their suits? How many original clan omnis had jets on their units? Not installed afterwards, but stock?
Funny thing about being in a flat spin as the Drop-ship falls to the planets surface is the inability to move due to the massive G-forces the spin creates – as well as firing off the jet thrusters inside a dropship will only bounce you off walls.
As for jumping out and hoping you thrusters can save you – have a look at how well that works for mechs if they are too high – they are just going to become a stain on the ground ….. so when did elementals get parachutes placed on their armor for commando type insertions, as this is more an IS forte.
So the statement holds the elemental will become a smear on the landscape …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/18/20 04:54 PM)
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ghostrider
08/18/20 08:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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It seems you don't understand that finding intel on things isn't just a snap of the fingers, nor is trying to pushing nobles for things. You would very much set off riots and rebellions in areas for arresting or even accusing a local lord of breaking the NAP, as some don't recognize any cease fire with the enemy. Too much blood in history, which is part of why the second SL could not last. It may well cause a full ceding of the entire march if you tried. The leaders are not as powerful in their holding of their position. It that was true, Skye would never had tried to revolt. The Draconis March would have been more willing to let units from their area wipe out the CC, so they could focus on the DC more from then on.
Finding out who paid for what, isn't as easy as you think either. Most know the back doors to getting things done, and the only way Hanse could 'stop' such things is to seize EVERY last jumpship in FC space. Privately owned as well as rented tend to be immune to seizure in all but the most dire circumstances. And the FC didn't realize how bad it was until the Dragoon meeting. They did not know the DC was hit so hard and vis versa. So your full intel the moment it happens does not exist.
Lethality? Alls it would take is to kill someone high in the military or close to someone powerful to start a full scale border war. For some leaders, just a strike on their favorite palace would be enough.
And how many forces does the local noble have? They could be the odd buyer of a lance of mechs every year that no one knows who it was. Taking out a single factory could well start the war. So any strike, even an unsuccessful one, can very well kill the NAP without even trying.
The concept of omni tech isn't the issue. The issue is human nature. Defiance does not want someone replacing their ML with a cheaper local version. So they are going to make it difficult for anyone else to make something that does work easily. Greed will win out, as each CEO/Owner will say their product is the correct one, so all have to convert to their standards.... And add in that their is a fee to license their product. They are NOT going to just let others make their copyrighted items without being paid for it. Used to be computers could take any hard drive and use it, but now they have specific plugs for different makers. Why? You have to buy from us when something goes wrong. So we can charge you for it. The cheap manufacturer isn't going to be able to help you anymore.
Also, some of the companies you buy things from are multi national. They have offices and factories in several nations. If you decide to force them to change to your standards, you become black listed. And if you seize anything, you destroy any chance of every dealing with companies again. They will move out or charge you so much more. Even selling their product to your enemy for cheaper, just to make you pay for it.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 08:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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New discoveries of SL places tends to bring up things comstar didn't confiscate or destroy. But wait. None of the houses bothered to finance such searches according to you.
Even research done with enough security to keep comstar from finding out until the prototype is being tested happens from time to time.
And your pirates that couldn't possibly get into locations they do, may well be hired by comstar, but under a false identity. How many times has this been done to stop tech advances? Or remove some old tech that has been found? More then you would like to believe. Might be how pirates continue to operate, as no one should be selling to them, yet they do.
The discussion was canon not having built a lot of warships. Alt having the CC destroyed has no place in this conversation piece. This is the very core of why you saying the threads are not canon bashing, but I say it is. Canon was using economics to limit advancements in some areas, but kept overfunding in other. Warships were not produced long after the clan truce, as they were too expensive to make and keep. The alt has NOTHING to do with this fact.
The entire IS seems to be set that they do not want to make war more efficiently for lower numbers of units. They wanted the mechs to be the last line of defense, and the ones to gain all the glory taking the enemy out. If it was about efficiency, then orbital and ground batteries would have been used a hell of a lot more then what they were. Destroy the enemy before they hit the atmosphere, and you can retaliate at your leisure. They just lost their ground forces and dropships. But this means no ground combat where you are desperate to defend your bases.
The game seems to want combat, but not a slaughter for players. The logic doesn't hold out on WHY things weren't done a certain way. It is cheaper to have a 10million c-bill missiles that destroys the enemy before then can even beging to launch, then send in a company of mechs, which may not stop the enemy. Consider if the enemy has an overlord or excalibur. A battalion to hit your 12 mechs with. More with the excalibur, but it is easier to stick with the mechs only.
The game does touch on it. You seem to want to ignore it so you can complain about it. The clans changed from their military honor bound settings to becoming more like the IS, then devolving into becoming pirate kings. But that doesn't mean they touched on what the power of plenty does. Yeah. I can see that now. Sheesh, what bs.
News Flash. Comstar did have hired guards for their facilities. They also had trained ones that comstar trained themselves. It was how they kept their mech warrior population quiet before the 4th war, and they continue to have them guarding facilities, which include the Comguards. There are a few places comstar had permanent guards at before the 4th war. They got tired of pirates taking their facility and getting it back wasn't easy. That is also hoping the pirates didn't decide to use the equipment for target practice.
When did Russia start beating the German people after WWII? Specific companies were immune to such problems, and the workers did not try to instigate any such actions. Orders will be obeyed. So if the Star Captain says don't mess with the Comstar personnel, then they won't. If they do, they are disciplined. Most will relay the order comes from above them, but it doesn't matter. Until the Star Captain does something that breaks with the Star Colonel, you will obey it as if it came from there.
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ghostrider
08/18/20 09:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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Can you go and fly a Russian Mig? A U.S Raptor or Warthog? Drive an Abrams or any T series Russian tank? How about any of their warships? So without any training, you can not only turn on, but get the coordinates right to send a message to another station light years from where you are, and hit it perfectly, as it needs to be? Even though it sound likely, comstar isn't going to just leave operations to just typing in a station or system to contact and have it all operate on it's own. And the sequence needed to even being to operate it would be require. One step out of sequence and you pop the system. Maybe even just program in three different computer languages? Brand new the HPGs would be much easier to use, but the IS ones were jury rigged. Not all, and not all badly, but the ability to use them would vary greatly.
Also, in your world of instant and automatic intel, what would comstar do when they found out you were training people to run the HPGs?
Immaterial? You said the spartans did not have contact outside of their own to influence their ways. It is immaterial that they had to trade with others in order to get what they needed? Gain intel to make sure then knew what was going on? And it is unlikely they did not adapt other ways into theirs to make them that much better. So the bs of being isolated doesn't hold. They did have their culture and ways influenced by others.
Where does it say the clans had social generals starting in 2947?
Politics has always been in the clans. Having to placate others, as well as arrange truces or agreements to hit others never disappeared completely. The destruction of the Wolverines and others are examples of that. But the fact that clan khans were staying in position longer and longer is a sure sign of politics allowing them to. Their bodies would not hold out as you said about Natasha. Late 30's is the implied time when they tend to be removed. The Wolf issues has a strong backing on the fact that upwards motions were slowed to almost a stop. The Falcon Khans was an extreme example of it, but it wasn't the only one in print.
It is printed that they had other sources of intel coming in, besides the Dragoons. Those were ignored as well. But even then, the 4th war did not send the IS back to the stone age. It should have shown them what they would face when they came in. The khans thought it was fantasy, so even if it was 3048 and they got the intel, which they did from the Outbound Light, they still didn't believe it. Yes. I could be an excuse on why they did so poorly, having 20 year old data to run on, but it does not mean you should not be prepared. And in the clans limited war, they were.
How many dropships go into a flat spin? Aerodynes are most likely, but spheroids are not as likely. So that is not very valid in this discussion. The fact that there is not limit given for jump jets on mechs or elementals negates the inability to use them when descending, and I have yet to hear of any elemental dropped from high altitude needing booster jets. The ones that normally need things like that are mechs that don't come equipped with jets.
The fact that the elemental suits are much smaller helps prevent the stain ending. Mech pilots tend to lack the understanding of not riding the jets to stop while 20 miles about the planet and do that every 500 feet. For elementals, their lives are at stake all the time, and they learn how to use the jets like they learn how to use their weapons, as it is a weapon. Jumping is far faster then running, and you can gain an advantage if you jump on the mech where it can't touch you. So the statement still stands. A suited elemental has a better chance of surviving a crash then a mech warrior does.
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Requiem
08/19/20 08:59 AM
1.158.133.26
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It seems as if you do not understand the rule of law and history.
How many local lords have instigated a cross border assault within the game and come out the better for it? When was the last time any Skye Lord initiated an attack across the border? Would any Lord dare considering who is in power during the 3050’s?
Also when your Liege Lord requests the use of your Jump-ship you are duty bound to provide it – thus making any further adventurism impossible.
The 4th Succession War proved that both the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth could amass a large jump-ship armada composing of both military and commercial ships.
Also in regards to intelligence isn’t this the purview of the states intelligence organisation and how efficient they are at accumulating information - they are experts in their field compared to the Clans.
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And how many forces does the local noble have? They could be the odd buyer of a lance of mechs every year that no one knows who it was.
Purchase License and Registration papers for those Machs – do you have an import Visa?
Considering that you keep on saying there is scarce number how hard is it to track all the Mechs in your realm once they leave the factory floor?
So yes if there is a scarcety of numbers every military force of evey lord on every world should be quantifiable – also the resident intelligence spy per world would keep a close eye on what the local lord has access to.
So no ceding, no rebellions ….
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The concept of omni tech isn't the issue. The issue is human nature.
Er, no….. the concept is logistical in nature – scarcity of resources to ensure the maximum amount of productivity with the limited amount available. And this is what an omni offers – 2 mechs per class (Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault) total of 8; that can then be utilized to maximum effect through the interchangeability of pods – ie. maximum bang for your buck!
This is where Government Laws and tax breaks to promote R&D and initiative process of business cycle come in to play.
Also when the Government inform the military industrial sector that they will be phasing out single weapon Mechs for omni they really have no option but to retool – whilst keeping one line open for spare parts for their previous single weapon mech.
[quote[ If you decide to force them to change to your standards, you become black listed.
Your company is hereby privatized and is the property of the House <insert name here>.
Wow that was exiting ….
Remember what happened to the last CEO that went doen this track … he ‘volunteered’ for the infantry corps, and his sacrifice will be remembered ……
No military industrial complex within the IS has the political power to go against a house Lord – they cannot pick up and leave, they cannot stop production they are dependent upon the house they work for their wealth …
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None of the houses bothered to finance such searches according to you.
Can I then ask what my forum entitled – House Archaeology Units – is about?
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Canon was using economics to limit advancements in some areas,
You do realize this assumption goes totally against Economics Theory – not only when old firms go out of business / move due to economies of scale / wages – but also to place these people back into work requires innovation. Warship production decreases unemployment, increases wages, increases standard of living conditions, increases the economy of those planets that produce parts – as has a knock on effect – that is if people have more wages they will spend it that helping other sectors of the world’s economies …..
Warship production is a great way to kickstart / keep an economy riding on a bull high.
Thus making their expense an important means of keeping the economy increasing ….
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The entire IS seems to be set that they do not want to make war more efficiently for lower numbers of units.
Huh?, efficiency increases the number of units produced – inefficiency decreases the number of units produced;
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They wanted the mechs to be the last line of defense,
Spear-point …
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Destroy the enemy before they hit the atmosphere, and you can retaliate at your leisure.
Hence warships …..
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The game seems to want combat, but not a slaughter for players.
Then what do you call the majority of the Cannon Clan Invasion Battles? How one sided were these?
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Comstar did have hired guards for their facilities
The Clans conquered a world and they did not attack ComStar’s forces? …. Really, where is this written.
As the stories have them kill everything they encounter
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There are a few places comstar had permanent guards at before the 4th war.
Where? …. I was under the impression it was due to ComStar’s fake attack upon the HPG facility ….
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When did Russia start beating the German people after WWII?
During WW2 and especially in the final days, and from then on ….. and no one was exempt ….
As for making a specific freeborn immune from a beating by a warrior …. Please do point out the passage where this was pointed out ……
Even if they were told not to the worst that could occur is a circle of equals …. However please do explain why a Clansman would reprimand another warrior for beating a freeborn …. And please do explain how this would not hurt their chanced of obtain a name?
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So without any training, you can not only turn on, but get the coordinates right to send a message to another station light years from where you are, and hit it perfectly, as it needs to be?
So the Clans don’t have HPGs – they are incapable of sending messages from one world to the next – and they are incapable of sending a message from the IS to the Clan home worlds for when they needed to vote for the second il-Khan.
Or did they return to the iS to kidnap ComStar Personnel to run their HPG stations and somehow there is an affiliate ComStar unit on the Clan Homeworlds.
If ComStar personnel are removed the Clans have people to take their place!
As for IS Houses all you need is one person who has been trained and they can re-create the manuals – and from there you can have a trained units to run the HPG stations as it is not as if they are going to update them on a regular basis and prove to the Great Houses that they have access to vast amounts of hidden technology.
As for the Spartans they society was established due to their own values to create their own culture the same as the Athenians …. Have a look at how many wars occurred between the city states due to the differences in culture.
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Where does it say the clans had social generals starting in 2947?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Political_Century
why call it the “Political” century then?
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How many dropships go into a flat spin? Aerodynes are most likely, but spheroids are not as likely.
Consider the many different ways a ball can fall through the x, y and z axis …… from a great height.
Again consider how NASA Lands a vehicle on Mars as well as the Egg Drop challenge …. They will be a smudge on the ground unless they have a parachute to slow the fall ….
Then consider terminal velocity ….
https://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-skydiving.html
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 11:52 AM
66.74.60.165
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There have been more then a few cross border raids that turned out for the better. Just punishing certain units or even specific people have been done. Head hunting or assassinations being a prime example of this. Part of the pirates concept that comes up. Stopping research or building of things. Not many are really dealt with in detail.
Now the FS does not have a first lord that is the ultimate power. The FS formed from an agreement of 10 states, and with that, they do have an written agreement of what is allowed and what isn't. The clause Katherine used, is probably not unique to the FC agreement. The DC does have commanders that do raids and such on their own, and the coordinator can't do much to stop it. And honestly, both sides don't want to stop it, until it becomes a problem.
How are you going to track all the units, as some go to special units, or are sometimes lost. I have not heard of any registry departments in any of the nations for this. And if they did, the black market would not exist. The entire game would be based on pure numbers. And that makes it boring as you would know what you will face at any time, and where. Take Kincaid for instance. He was selling to the CC and how long did it take to figure this out? There are companies, such as Defiance, that sell to anyone. Yes, they sell to anyone. Specific mechs, like the Zeus would not be sold to the CC, but they could be bought by, what do you know, third and fourth parties. Front companies for almost anyone, as well as mercs. And this doesn't even cover things like finding SL properties with mechs and such in them. Raids do net enemy mechs as well.
You still don't understand the leaders can NOT just decide to steal factories from people. It sets up a bad environment for the others. It also causes all of your people to start questioning your attempts to become a dictator.
The omni concept should have been done sooner, but as said. The large rich CEOs would not bother trying it. Resources may be low, but they are getting rich. The weapons industry is necessary for the nations to survive. Having one factory shut down may well cause issues with supply lines. And I would love to see the LC/FS confiscate Defiance. It will not happen. Some companies are across the nations, so seizing one location will cause the rest to ignore any sort of dialoge with them, and possibly cause them to hire mercs to remove the factory from your ownership.
But the toltarian leadership you seem to want doesn't allow for anything but a simple outcome to everything. That just isn't possible.
The overthrow of leaders that had complete control shows this to be true. You can NOT control everything and everyone. You even attempt to try, and you will not be in power for very long.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 12:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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It's about complaining about canon in yet another thread with a concept that isn't true. The houses have, and continue to search for SL properties. Announcing them is not a smart idea, and it may well be covered in a simple, searching for resource mission for the normal military. Look for enemy secret bases, and what do you know. A Star League base is found here. Oh yeah. It wasn't labeled as searching for it.
I said canon uses economics to limit advancements. I did not say it was a great idea. In fact, I have been saying it is bs in most areas. Limited budgets do limit things that can be done. Sometimes a shortage of specific resources can limit what can be done. I do understand that warships are a huge money pit, and that if you can get around not having them, it would be a good concept, but as with any war unit. You have to stay ahead of the enemy if you want to not only survive but expand. I think the bs of you can't do this, but we did this instead is where problems lay in the game. Can't spend the money to build clan tech, but we can spend money to build an engine so expensive that it puts a warship to shame. And what good is that engine? Proof of concept. The money spent on research is good most of the time. In the XXXL engine, it was a proof of concept. But saying you can't advance your entire military with better weapons and equipment because of cost? That is pure BS. I could put it down as the companies refusing to do the research. But even that is pushing it.
Most companies get research grants by governments.
Efficiency of the units is what was meant there. You can do the same job with less people concept. Normally it would take say 12 mechs to secure an area, well what if you could do it with 9? The game does not want you to be able to take worlds with 12 mechs, yet they seem to do it with a few story settings. You could make a kingdom almost anywhere in the IS, if you could take worlds with a single mech company.
Also, with all the factories in the IS, having them efficiently making weapons of war, would do what they finally figured out in the 20 year update. The LC especially, would soon out produce everyone to the point of not really needing tactics, as you flood the fields with assault mech, so you can't use tactics to counter them. This is the very reason they had to break up the FC. The 3039 war would not have been lost without the bs that happened. The LC generals meeting every week and was wiped out. What the hell are XO's for? And the soldiers next in line? Hold your positions until further notice. Hmmm. Simple enough. Get someone else in there, or promote the person running the show now.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 12:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not just warships, but any capital weapon platforms that can do the job. Warships means you are a threat, as you can move them into the enemies territory. Having worlds guarded with something that isn't easy to move to a new system, gives you the added bonus of saying you are defensive.
Except for Turtle Bay, how many people were killed in a rampage? They did slowly destroy buildings until an assassin was brought forward, but they did not do so just for target practice. There was no executions just to make the commanders happy. And you missed the point. The PLAYERS are not supposed to commit horrible actions. There was no effort to depopulate worlds so the clan civvies could live there without locals.
Again, you put in things that were not in the story. The clans did not kill everything they ran into. More then a few units surrendered without a shot. Others were able to fight them off for a while. Still others were able to kick them off world, though the khans sent in more forces to retake the worlds.
But it is pretty simple. Comstar facilities are well marked, and when you have orders not the attack within say a klick of one, the warriors obeyed. Comstars WHITE painted units with the logo should be visible for a long ways out, and they would arrest any IS personnel that tried to use that buffer zone to avoid being hit. So yeah. I would be very difficult for Comstar to stay out of the fight around their facilities.
How many times was Focht beaten when asking taboo questions? Or insulting a warrior about their skills or honor? His staff that was with him? There was one story that had an Comstar person that one of the clan warriors was upset that they were killed in an uprising. And the clans are about personal skill, but they are also about following the orders given to them. If they let anyone do what ever they wanted, the clans would have fallen apart long before the invasion, as each strong leader would break off and form their own version of the clan. Maybe a good point would be when Aidan was being punished for killing the true born, while he was posing as a freeborn.
And worse could be the denial of any sort of advancement as well as being blacklisted from performing in a blood name event, though the grand melee might still be open.
'The Political Century was a period of time in Clan history directly following the Golden Century. It was characterized by sharp increases of inter-Clan conflict and political maneuvering, and gave rise to the Great Debate and the eventual invasion of the Inner Sphere. The Political Century ended with the Outbound Light incident and the beginning of Operation Revival.[1][2]
This sounds more like using politics for some clans to get their way, then using it to remain in power, as a social general would be. So your comprehensive reading skills looks off here.
Learn the definition of a flat spin. It is a form of, but not the exact definition of an uncontrolled spin. A flat spin is where the craft spins uncontrollably left to right or right to left according to the facing of the bottom. They are very dangerous to normal aircraft as it prevents the control surfaces from working and tends to deprive the engines of air.
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Requiem
08/19/20 08:46 PM
1.158.133.26
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There have been more then a few cross border raids that turned out for the better.
Generalities does not equate to facts, circa approximately 3050 …..
Date…..World………Units Involved……………………………Outcome
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the coordinator can't do much to stop it.
Declare them Ronin – a master less samurai
And again if both sides do not have the transport to engage in war in becomes a non event.
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How are you going to track all the units, as some go to special units, or are sometimes lost.
The Intelligence Department + Mercenary Relations Department + Administration = an accurate register.
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And if they did, the black market would not exist.
Mech Black Market would be consigned to the Periphery – all other Black market goods will still be readily available;
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The entire game would be based on pure numbers. And that makes it boring as you would know what you will face at any time, and where.
In a shell game this still requires knowledge as to the enemies disposition – how accurate is the information you receive prior to an invasion.
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There are companies, such as Defiance, that sell to anyone.
Where is this written as I must have missed in their latest prospectus? As wasn’t the description everyone uses as the Lyran’s premiere Mech facility – not everyone’s Mech facility ….
SL Mechs found and Raids – new mechs will be become registered.
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You still don't understand the leaders can NOT just decide to steal factories from people. It sets up a bad environment for the others. It also causes all of your people to start questioning your attempts to become a dictator.
You still do not understand that if vassals decide to go against their Lord there will be consequences – even their replacement with someone more agreeable …. Or the confiscation of their plant.
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The large rich CEOs would not bother trying it. Resources may be low, but they are getting rich.
It is not up to the CEO – is up to the military procurement division producing specific weapons procurement requests that would include omni pods – suggest reading on how the US military puts fort h a procurement request for a new weapon – it states the specifications required and the military industrial complex uses its R&D to produce the one off weapon by the due date – it then put’s it through testing to see who produced the best weapon – and it is at this stage the contract is signed for mass production.
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the totalitarian leadership
This is not a totalitarian regime – it is a Feudalism model in which the regional lords govern in the name of their Lord – but in doing so their must offer mounted fighters a fief (medieval beneficium) as well as to explain their actions before their Lord.
Your House Lord knows exactly what is happening within their realm – but for all external parties this is a complete unknown.
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and continue to search for SL properties
This requires a dedicated archeological team who have access to all the historical records who can them be sent to excavate any lead they find promising.
Otherwise it is just wandering around guessing where to dig or hoping someone will jet get lucky and find / trip over something.
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I said canon uses economics to limit advancements. I did not say it was a great idea.
Please do show me someone who would want to damage the economy from within to such an extent everyone gets poorer and the cost of goods increases at the same time.
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I do understand that warships are a huge money pit
Actually they are not a money pit …. Loot up the economics principle in regards to knock on effects of such projects such as building large infrastructure projects.
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Most companies get research grants by governments.
Really? Sorry but no this is not the case most companies pay for the R&D themselves then mass produce to recover costs - Pharmaceutical Industry is a good example of this.
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Efficiency of the units is what was meant there.
Over time with mass manufacturing and efficiency – costs decrease – so that where before you could only purchase 12 you can now purchase 16 for the same amount.
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The LC especially, would soon out produce everyone to the point of not really needing tactics, as you flood the fields with assault mech, so you can't use tactics to counter them.
This is nothing new …. America’s total war effort – Rosie the Riveter – WW2 – look at their production compared to the total world at the time – so how did the rest of the world react?
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Warships means you are a threat, as you can move them into the enemies territory.
This is why there are other strategies when it comes to warships – big wing fighter attacks – PT Craft - pocket warships etc.
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The PLAYERS are not supposed to commit horrible actions.
And yet it is OK for the TPTB to go down this track with the players only allowed to take it!
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The clans did not kill everything they ran into. More then a few units surrendered without a shot.
And were they allowed to keep their mechs or were they absorbed into the clans as ditch diggers for proving how cowardly they were? Again Clan Warriors only show respect to those that have proven themselves … and ComStar Adepts have yet to do so …. They will be treated as all freeborn are ….
Thus the idea that they will end up hating the Clans as all IS born people would …. The two cultures are just too diverse for one to accept the other ….
As for their facilities the Clans would not care about these – they only care about enemy forces and enemy bases – those that offer no resistance are not attacked.
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How many times was Focht beaten when asking taboo questions?
How about them moment he walked onto the Clan Warship when Clan Nova Cats’ LoreMaster attacked him due to a vision?
The clans stay unified by their culture and the strength of their bond to that culture that is imposed on them since birth
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This sounds more like using politics for some clans to get their way,
This also sounds like individuals getting their way through graft and corruption – getting friends to become named warriors so that they can assist me later with becoming Khan.
Wardens and Crusaders – two party political system – who does that remind you of ?
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Learn the definition of a flat spin.
Suggest looking at cricket bowlers or how about baseball pitchers – what can they do with the ball and in which way does it spin …… then apply this to a spherical object falling to the ground at a very rapid rate, the internal G-forces would be incredible and the varying degrees of pitch would also be very difficult to quantify …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 11:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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You would destroy your army because they didn't like you leaving their families open to be killed by the enemy? That you are diverting needed food and medicine to nobles that squandered theirs? Even a lack of payment will cause them to reject your orders. But it isn't a shock. You have shown thru the posts, you don't concern yourself with anything but absolute power, which is why you will not have many followers.
Showing you think there is an absolute way to stop mechs from being sold to those you don't want them to be. Registration is not going to prevent it, though it may slow down just how quickly enemies of the state will get them. And again, most companies are not under and exclusive deal with the nation they are in. Most will abide by not selling to the LC during a time of war, from factories in the FWL, but that will not stop them from doing so. It that was the case, the amount of Awesomes and Orions in other nations would be far less then what they are. This holds true for other mech producers as well. The entire weapons industry would go broke if they dealt with just their nation.
Vehicles are just the same as well. The Pike is ONLY produced in the MoC. The Hunter was an LC only design, which did not spread because of battle salvage. They are SOLD to other nations including the DC. The Bulldog is an FS design. So no. You can not stop the sales of weapons to other nations, including mechs.
And your little idea of not ransoming back worlds once taken comes into effect here. Deals can be made that one nation can buy x amount of product from the other nations weapon producers. Or even just demanded.
According to your statements, there is no worries about accurate count of invasion forces. You intel would have told you that the moment they left their base. So there is a conflict of which is correct.
What other mech, or even weapons producers come close to Defiances status in the LC? And selling to others, does not mean you provide entire RCTs to them. It could well be only 10 mechs a year, or something like that. Certain designs would be limited, as agreed upon with the LC government, but it will not stop Defiance from making money selling to all. It is also more likely they will sell parts to others. Which if you get the right combination, you can make those mechs, getting around the whole no sell issues.
The idea of keeping together the ENTIRE nation has got to be some give and take. You think only one person would be the target of your retaliation, but you will find that a lot more would back the entity that you are trying to extort. The other manufacturers in a nation will NOT allow you to just take over factories, as it leads to you eventually taking over THEIRS. And with your statements to date, that would happen. Even the DC and CC have got to allow some issues to go unpunished, as to do anything risks an even larger issue. One that you can not afford to come to pass.
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ghostrider
08/19/20 11:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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Send all the specs you want. You want our product, you take it the way we make it. Otherwise, shop elsewhere.
That is something that seems to be missed with demanding the companies change over. And worse, the cost per unit goes up, so your budget fall a lot shorter in buying things you need to keep safe. This could be used for the economic bs of keeping tech down, but they come up with things at are new crap shows it isn't really the case. The blazer is an example of this. Why bother with two lasers that fire at the same time, when you can just fire two lasers at the same time, or only one when heat is an issue? Because the gun was considered popular?
Inaccurate statements again. The house lords DON'T know all that is going on in their realms. And there is a limit to what a nation lord can ask of his vassals. Otherwise it is not a feudal society but a pure dicatorship. The regional lords as well as the rich and powerful would make sure you did not overstep what they consider to be bounds. Illusion of freedom does a lot to stop resistance to policies, but it affects others differently. Calling on a world that overproduces food to conserve does not work as well as a planet that relies on other worlds to supply them. Or tell them they have to conserve so others that aren't bothering to try to supply their people with food doesn't work.
Civil wars come about from this very concept. The SL was doing so before the fall. What happened? The house leaders actually sat back and laughed when the SL couldn't meet their threats.
And where does it say that there isn't teams being given the information available and not looking for them. Refer to the Galtor book. They had computers do a search to find out where SL bases were likely to be. More then a few, they found one, but it was already raided. Then the one on Galtor showed up, and as stated, they thought it would be raided as the DC had it for a hundred or so year. So search parties are given what they can find in historical information, but those still left require gut feelings and hunches. There is no map of SL locations available to any one. Not Comstar, not the clans, not the houses.
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ghostrider
08/20/20 12:03 AM
66.74.60.165
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There are a lot of people in power today that are doing just that. Creating economic slavery by making sure the poor can't do anything, while increasing their pockets. If you really have to ask who, then your analysis abilities are poor at best.
Best pay attention to what is going on in the world today. Billions are handed out looking for the Corona virus cure. There is plenty of others that have spent billions of tax payers money to find cures for things, and most are put in the pockets of the CEO's and owners. The research companies do pay for isn't that large and a lot of that is a tax write off.
And the companies don't mass produce their medicine to recover their spending. They cost far more then what they should, and have laws in effect to make sure generics do not interfer with that for a while. The Epipen is a good example. It was found that you could make it for less then 10 bucks, yet the pharamacutical company was charging 30 or more times that.
Did you actually read the statement? Having efficient machines, ie MECH AND TANKS, is something the game does not want to see. If you can hold onto a location with 9 mechs instead of 12, then you don't need to spend as much on more units. So the Panther with a clan erppc is worth more then a part of Panthers without it. Double sinks to cool it would be in there as well. Distance, and damage being the main factory, but easier to hit as the lower ranges are extended as well. So the extra 400,000 c-bills to buy the ERPPC panther is more efficient that buying a pair of normal panthers in this case. It also makes the developers have to come up with threat that could not exist, like how WOB came about. Only the shadow strike allowed them the advantage, then changing to nukes kept them from being wiped out quickly. There isn't anything that could really come close anymore from a single entity.
Losing the ability to see context in statements? The statement of the LC out producing everyone was meant to show why the developers had to nerf them and the FC. The actions of the U.S for WWII had mixed results to their efforts. The allies love it as they were going to benefit from it, while the Axis hated it, because they would have to fight against it. Not sure why that was even said.
What does other tactics have to do with using defense platforms to avoid making others feel threatened instead of warships?
The general excuse for hitting another nation is the fact they are a threat to yours. Not having a warship to attack with removes part of that threat. The defenses means they are less likely to survive if they attack you.
Do you even know how to create a story that is exciting and causes the reader to cheer the heroes? There is always something horrible that happens that the heroes have to fight against odds, that could destroy their homes, and worlds for sci fi. That is unless you are writing from the villains side of things. Then you don't want the enemy using your tactics. How would the rest of the IS respond to the clans wiping out the FC and DC? They would love watching all sides bleed, then hit them when both are weakened. The CC and FWL did not join with the DC because they liked them. They did it as there was no other way they would survived against the FC. Comprehension failed again.
Did you not read or understand that the agreement the clans had with comstar, is they respected the entity for keeping the HPG network going among the barbarians of the IS?
As it was, the Clans had much respect for ComStar - a living legacy of the old Star League, committed to its eventual restoration - and hoped the organization could help them in their purpose.
Next falsehood.
You did not read the article of the political age.
It is about the crusaders and wardens forming into large blocs when like minded clans slowed down hostility to each other. There is nothing in there about warriors using politics to stay in office after they were too weak to even qualify as a warrior.
Next time you want to use some off the wall thing like baseball say so. The military and normal definition of a flat spin is to lose the ability to control a craft due to it spinning on a flat level and not getting air flow over the controls in order to pull out. This is normally accompanied by the engines starving for oxygen as the exhaust is going into the air intakes because of the spin.
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Requiem
08/20/20 08:07 PM
1.158.133.26
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You would destroy your army because they didn't like you leaving their families open to be killed by the enemy?
Really? …. Comprehension of issues required, as how, where and evidence as to argument? Otherwise no validity …..
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Showing you think there is an absolute way to stop mechs from being sold to those you don't want them to be.
The majority of Western Countries throughout the modern world have armaments Licenses – extension of existing law.
As not only can you restrict armaments going to the wrong individual / group but also the government receives income in the form of licenses (to Pilot the vehicle, for the registration of the vehicle, and for the purchase of explosives) and also tax on the sale / purchase of the ‘Mech.
Show me a government who is not interested in weapons control and tax?
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And again, most companies are not under an exclusive deal with the nation they are in.
Can I laugh now? Any basic research will indicate licenses required including export licenses.
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The entire weapons industry would go broke if they dealt with just their nation.
Sorry no – recession proof industry when the major activity of the government is war.
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So no. You can not stop the sales of weapons to other nations, including mechs.
Have you paid attention to the how this occurs with most inter country sales of arms packages in the world and how this occurs?
All sales require the acceptance of their government – in this case the House Lord.
Thus there should be major border restrictions, each house should live and die with their own military industrial facilities.
Ever seen the West / East Block selling to non strategic partners and without their Presidents’ tick of approval?
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And your little idea of not ransoming back worlds once taken comes into effect here.
Ghostrider, this was your suggestion not mine.
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According to your statements, there is no worries about accurate count of invasion forces.
Please re-read as above – as this is not what was asserted above.
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What other mech, or even weapons producers come close to Defiance’s status in the LC?
Evidence please.
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The other manufacturers in a nation will NOT allow you to just take over factories
This is the last action by the government due to recalcitrant CEO … in all likelihood the Government would find a close relative / another noble family to take over the position who understands their position …..
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Send all the specs you want. You want our product, you take it the way we make it.
Go down this path and the business will fall ….. as no R&D has ever taken this attitude towards anything …..
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Inaccurate statements again. The house lords DON'T know all that is going on in their realms. And there is a limit to what a nation lord can ask of his vassals.
This is what the internal security force is for as well as ALL the Government departments …. Try again.
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Calling on a world that overproduces food to conserve does not work as well as a planet that relies on other worlds to supply them.
This is why a government department exists to know this information about every planet within their Lords House.
The same as a government department exists to interpret the Census information to plan for future developments – and another exists for the day-to-day needs of every state / county etc …..
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Civil wars come about from this very concept.
Please do indicate a civil war in regards to this?
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They had computers do a search to find out where SL bases were likely to be.
And wouldn’t those computers belong to a dedicated archeology government department who can then review all information to check the computers’ findings?
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There is no map of SL locations available to any one.
Then someone was not doing their job during the SL era – show me any military that does not know the exact location of every enemy base (and in the case of the Clans a base that their forbearers once occupied) and what is within that base <to the best of their intelligence apparatus.> To believe there isn’t a map is lunacy once again ….. only the destruction of all records by all the Houses and ComStar and the Clans at the same time could have ensured this level of information loss ….
Again this is on the same level as the loss of all knowledge …. Sorry but it just cannot be considered to be a plausible argument when viewed rationally …..
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There are a lot of people in power today that are doing just that. Creating economic slavery by making sure the poor can't do anything, while increasing their pockets.
The Overall Economy is therefore progressing along in a positive direction
The underlying ethical issues is not what was being discussed.
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Did you actually read the statement? Having efficient machines, ie MECH AND TANKS, is something the game does not want to see.
Really? ….. consider every modern world war to date and their production processes
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The statement of the LC out producing everyone was meant to show why the developers had to nerf them and the FC.
And this is why the game is where it is right now, not understanding their target market – boys own adventure books have gone out of style – the target market has matured and desires a more believable gritty story – again look at the competition Warhammer and the quality of their merchandise in comparison. Unless something is done, and soon, Battletech as a table top game / novels will fold – leaving only computer games.
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Not having a warship to attack with removes part of that threat. The defenses means they are less likely to survive if they attack you.
Shield meet sword – sword meet shield
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Then you don't want the enemy using your tactics. How would the rest of the IS respond to the clans wiping out the FC and DC?
How many stories are written from the point of view that their home has been conquered and that the protagonist must re-build the nation – kick out the invaders – and restore their land to its former glory?
Again, if you have good authors this can become a good story ….
Case in point – CC falls to the FC – Kali and Sun Tzu end up with their aunt – Sun rebels and tries to reform the CC – he is killed by his sister Kali (who now appears to be a good person on the FC side) – but, it is she who plots in the dark to reform a new CC through a political and military guile ….. it is she who is being the spider waiting to strike ….
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Did you not read or understand that the agreement the clans had with comstar, is they respected the entity for keeping the HPG network going among the barbarians of the IS?
Since when did the Clans Warriors ever respect freeborn as well as those that are not warriors as well?
Try again ….For the Clans Respect must be earned in combat …. Remember they are supposed to Mongol warriors and
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It is about the crusaders and wardens forming into large blocs when like minded clans slowed down hostility to each other.
Please re-read? …. It was about political parties!
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Next time you want to use some off the wall thing like baseball say so.
Understanding the concept of similarities.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/20/20 08:09 PM)
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ghostrider
08/20/20 08:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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Show me a weapons manufacturer that is not selling under the table to make money and avoid paying taxes. This is how they make money and friends in most areas. The black market is full of weapons sold to them at a lower cost, so they can keep funds without paying the government taxes. They also give a few samples of their stuff to open up new markets.
The governments that aren't dictatorships love to have all sales taxed if they can. A few stinger missiles allows them to open a factory is say Iran to make money that the U.S or the U.K don't know about. They can get around things by making 'knock off' of the weapons and say they have no idea where they came from.
You honestly think companies don't get around licenses? Bribe to certain people is rampant. Smuggling is yet another way. Shipping thru another country, or even building the items there can get around that. Why do you think so many companies pay less in taxes then the person sweeping up a construction site? Why so many companies are being sued for evading taxes owed in more then a few nations.
There are more then a few weapons manufacturers that went broke because the government didn't buy from them. Most declare bankruptcy and open up under a different name. Gets around taxes, as well as removes any investigations into the old company. How much did Boeing or Airbus lose when they had the orders cancelled by buyers?
There are a lot of companies that sell to others without any sort of approval from rulers. Multinational companies do it all the time. That is why there is a thing called a boycott.
Earthworks is not going to wait for Hanse to sign off on them selling the FWL or CC mechs. Aldis, I think is the manufacturer of Demolishers and Shcreks are not going to care if Takashi said they can not sell to the LC. Even those in a single nation do not listen to the rulers at times.
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ghostrider
08/20/20 08:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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I said the nations have ransomed back worlds, and you said there was no way they would do so, as they paid for it in blood. Your memory isn't working well? Or are you just putting in garbage for the hell of it? Worlds change hands and one side comes out the better for it. Simple incursions have ended when one side takes a world or two important to the invaders. Blood spilt isn't a problem for the leaders. They will sacrifice units in order to advance their plans. And there are times when setting up for a trade happens.
Why don't you have the information that no other mech company comes close to Defiance's importance? You supposedly have all the companies and how many mechs are made by them in your notes. Otherwise your entire complaint about canon is all based on wild guesses. If so, just drop it.
The nobles know that trick. It has been played time and time again. Those in other factories know it. The government is not one to just take factories from someone that told them no. Sanctions are done, but out right seizure of their factories. The FS got away with it once, and hasn't tried it again. And that was because Federated Boeing wouldn't work with the government, not from selling to a foreign nation.
The business isn't going to fall because you ignored someones demand to use their specs. Your R&D will make things their way. You do not want other companies to be able to copy your work as it means no way to recover the expenses of the R&D. No future lawsuits that another violated copyrights. For companies, it is all about making money. They produce so much in their way, they are NOT going to lose money because you want x laser in this position then y laser. Or worse, having to pay another company for their licenses when you have your own version of that equipment.
Try again? How is it that the government finds out about things like coups only when the gunmen are storming the capital? That organize, and non organized crimes can be committed for years and only found out when the rich start losing money from a hacker? Or that spies are inside your country stealing tech, money and other things? Oh yeah. That doesn't happen in the fantasy world. Sheesh.
You mean things like concentrated weakness wasn't the government pushing their worlds to put up more then they could? That the entire LC started revolting against it? Katrina took over because of it. The civil war that would have resulted from him not stepping down would have destroyed the majority of the LC, as worlds would have ceded. But that isn't possible it seems.
Do you really think the IS governments would leave that sort of information in the hands of someone besides them? The information is vital to their survival. The people they send out looking are trained at the governments locations then sent out. The private citizen is NOT going to have that information stored on their book shelf at home.
Every military doesn't know the exact location of every base. Why is there recon missions to find the enemy base if you have the location to begin with? You just assault it and remove it from existence. The idea of striking from a hidden base would never be possible with this concept. This statement destroys your idea of hiding bases as well.
Please do show me someone who would want to damage the economy from within to such an extent everyone gets poorer and the cost of goods increases at the same time.
The Overall Economy is therefore progressing along in a positive direction
The underlying ethical issues is not what was being discussed.
Trying to change the subject again as you were shown the lie to the first statement? Then suggesting that destroying your country so you can get rich is perfectly alright?
The ethical issues is the base of someone destroying their country to get rich. Reread your posts before putting up more crap. This is getting very old.
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ghostrider
08/20/20 09:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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The issue is the developers tried to fill in the back story and didn't pay attention to their own numbers. The target base was fine with playing the game, and even still do with the background story not syncing up right. The time they have issues is when the rules get changed on things that were solid in the past. The story has little to actually do with the board game. Which can be played with just knowing the nations names.
Are you trying to be funny? Or just don't get it? Removing you as a threat to others, lessens they likelihood of attacking you. The sword verse shield comment doesn't work there.
Context does not equal the alt bs being shown. The statement deals with writing from the enemy's side, and you don't want them using your tactics.
Oh. I don't know. When did the clans respect freeborns?
Might need to read up on Nicholas Kerensky, as well as the founders of the clans. They are all freeborns that are respected by all the clans. The Falcons ended up respecting Horse. There are other examples, but you won't bother to read it. It shows the falsehood in the statement that clansmen don't respect any freeborns.
Flat spin can be used as an example of how a frisbee flies. Does that mean a dropship is a frisbee?
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ghostrider
08/20/20 09:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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Define what a social general is.
The game uses the LC definition of someone using politics to be appointed head of a military unit that has no experience in the military.
The political century of the clans does not suggest such a thing happening.
The only definition that might be though from the wiki is the clan leaders started to plot against those that were politically opposed to their philosophy.
If you think the wiki entry is suggesting the LC social generals were forming in the clans at that time is correct, then stop using the comprehensive reading. It is putting in worlds that aren't there, and changing those that are. If you have to, have someone else read stuff to you, as they will NOT be putting in crap that isn't there.
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Requiem
08/21/20 10:53 AM
1.158.133.26
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Show me a weapons manufacturer that is not selling under the table to make money and avoid paying taxes.
How about all of them.
They have a manufacturer license and are expected that they know the laws that it needs to follow, it means that they are breaking the law and need to be arrested, tried, convicted and sent to prison
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You honestly think companies don't get around licenses?
Remember – First World highly registered, high level of law enforcement Vs. 3rd World unregistered and no lw enforcement whatsoever – House Vs Periphery State.
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There are more then a few weapons manufacturers that went broke because the government didn't buy from them.
And they are?
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The business isn't going to fall because you ignored some-ones demand to use their specs. Your R&D will make things their way.
How to get excluded from being selected for the next military production run – ignore the requirements asset down by the procurement department and do something completely different – no contact for that company.
And what has the protection of intellectual property have to do with anything?
Omni – requires standardization of many of its parts to make it cost-effective overall!
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Context of information
Nil.
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Define what a social general is.
Appointee within the military though irregular channels to high rank who has never been educated correctly to military standards – and has never gone through the ranks as per the normal chain of command eg. Kerensky – a perfect candidate for a social general – appointed though political connections only, no actual work in achieving rang / experience – never went through the proper chain of command – Company Commander to Commander of the SLDF with no stops in the middle? it’s no wonder he lost over 90% of all his forces to a military 1/5 the size of the SLDF.
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The political century of the clans does not suggest such a thing happening.
Re-read – the Clans are full of people that do not deserve their position – basing rank on how well you can kill someone is a great way to loosing ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/20 12:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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Oh no! Rich CEO's doing illegal things to make money? Does this ever happen? Pharmacutical manufacturers selling drugs they know can kill, and don't bother letting people know? Tainted food sold when it is known to be tainted? MIlitary Items showing up in the hands of those that were banned, yet they were direct sales and not stolen?
You really don't understand the world today if you believe that law enforcement is that tight in any 1st world nation. Budgets are making it so they barely can catch any, and with ties, most are not doing anything but being slapped on the wrist. And then it happens again. The slap of even a 100 million is nothing compared to the billions they make off things. The game is no better about this. Government officials buy weapons designated only for the military, yet the officials have never served in the military. A few million dollars worth of gifts, will by officials looking the other way.
The concept of the Omni needing to be made from pretty standard parts isn't in question. The fact that those that make those parts are not going to give up money in order to change over to them, meaning redesign of their machines to do so, unless there is a major increase in revenue. That is not about to happen any time soon. As the government permits and helps pay for new factories, they can be done with the new standards, if the government helps pay for the R&D to get there. Besides the developers not making very effective mechs, this is why the 3050 mechs were so crappily made. A single upgrade, maybe 2 seemed to be the max most of them had. And they were normally easy to change ones. Endo steel being one of the most major changes, as the extra crits had to be placed in a way as to not interfer with equipment placement besides just weapons. All sorts of electrical lines, coolant as well as sensors and such needed to be placed.
Double sinks that aren't hidden by the engine is another big hard to place right items. The ER series weapons would be relatively easy, with the exception of coolant lines. More would be needed, though not sure if the normal power lines could just be upgraded to a larger carrier.
So when discussing something like how a mech is built, the context of that paragraph does not apply when responding to it? So next time you say the sky is blue, I will be able to say green skies are the only things to exist and it would be ok? Not even close. You keep trying to say apples and oranges, yet don't seem to want to bother with keeping with the statements for a response.
So how is your definition able to support saying the clans had social generals in the time frame before the invasion? They were not trained to run things properly, but they did not get put into position because they use politics. Might makes right doesn't work well, but it isn't the same thing as a social general. The clans knew tactics, though strategy was weak. A main cause of that was their limited trials. And when that goes on for a few hundred years with nothing to counter it, you tend to lose out on strategy of logistics.
Sorry. Saying the political century was about social generals being appointed is completely false. The trial of position had been around far longer then the political age. It was the accepted way, and for military purposes, is no where close to being political appointees. How fast did the Mongols lose? A chief of most tribes was appointed due to combat prowess. They normally had others that knew how to run things beyond that, but it wasn't unique to the clans.
Now the skill based system is not even close to being the best to run things properly, it was not promotion of military unskilled leaders.
It was easy to get supplies quickly in the clan home worlds. So as stated above, that caused the decline in being able to get supplies where they were needed once the supply line grew to beyond a few weeks.
So how did you come to the conclusion the political age was about social generals? Nothing in there suggest that.
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Requiem
08/21/20 07:08 PM
1.158.133.26
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When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will
President Abraham Lincoln
The IS to which all is graft, corruption and darkness is not the IS I believe in.
Military Industrial facility CEOs do not engage in shady under the table operations. When presented with a military contract from the DOD outlining the specifics of the requirements they will attempt to manufacture the best they possibly can within the specifications requested.
Governments will allow tax breaks for R&D.
Corporations will be able to recoup their R&D costs on the back end with regards to mass marketing selling price.
Law enforcement - barely can catch any – slapped on the wrist – make off things ….. where is the efficiency, the honor, the professionalism?
Governments can be amazing – their members can be extraordinary, not all are corrupt, looking the other way
Also it is the Department of Defense (The Military itself!) who signs off on the weapons systems – ie. test conducted to simulate combat conditions.
These reports are then sent to the Government Appropriations Committee who then sign off on the weapons purchase.
As where is the current defective vehicle?
As for the Omni
It is a natural progression of military hardware developmental construction.
In an age where scarcity of recourses is supposed to exist the Omni allows for cost effectiveness – logistics effectiveness –military strategic adaptability on the battlefield.
Given the Helm Memory Corps – the Dragoons order to assist the IS – NAIS Development by Dr Banzai etc the Omni Concept within the FC should have proceeded to proof of concept by no later than the early 3030’s with mass production established by mid to late 3030’s thus entering service (in limited numbers) during the CC fall war of 3039-40. And by the introduction of the Clan Invasion it would have been IS Vs Clan Omni ….
Consider the Clans ranking system …. Trial of position to achieve rank …. Consider their hidebound military tactics a circle of equals and battles fought as duels by duelists …. Consider the average service span of a Clan warrior before they are sent to a Solhama unit (the Clans are a youth based military society –only the rare few make it to older age) compared to the service record of an IS General …. Where is the planetary scale tactics that an IS General employs and where is the massive experience of an IS General has amassed an extensive experience over a lifetime of hard fought battles and Wars?
In a one on one fight with equal technology the Clan commander would be walked over every single time - they lack the experience and tactical flexible thinking an IS Commander has amassed over a lifetime of service.
With equal technology the Clans will loose – their sibko training, their trial “toy” battlefields as well as their own cultural idioms will untimely see to their destruction!
The only hope for the Clans lies in a complete reformation of their society to something consistent with the IS – however to achieve this the old guard of the Clan Warriors must be removed
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How fast did the Mongols lose?
Research of the topic would show that the death of the Genghis Khan in 1227 disputes among his successors eventually split the empire into four. By 1368, all four had folded.
Remember military prowess in the cockpit does NOT equate to strategic military prowess in command – the entirety of Clan Tactics revolves around a very small area of land (the circle of equals) and as result of this small are of land their only strategies are the blitzkrieg and the Duel …. Compared to an IS General the Clans have no real strategic acumen ….
They are useless in a standup combat of equal technology they lack flexibility – no vehicles – no support vehicles for long duration battles – no artillery – no bombers – their replacement personnel numbers would be a joke compared to the IS – they in no way have the numbers to garrison a mass number of worlds!
The entire Clan Invasion as is, is ridiculous !
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It was easy to get supplies quickly in the clan home worlds. So as stated above, that caused the decline in being able to get supplies where they were needed once the supply line grew to beyond a few weeks.
6 MONTHS is not a few weeks!
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So how did you come to the conclusion the political age was about social generals? Nothing in there suggest that.
Go back and re-read between the lines.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/20 10:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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The discussion of the easy supplies was about the clans fighting in the home systems, not the IS. Hence saying they lost their strategy thinking and moving supplies.
You said there was no way anyone in the IS could sell advanced weapons without the governments ok. Then you said that they would have to obey the governments orders, including who and when they can sell their products to and to what specs they will fit. This is not the case today, nor was it in the SL, and being anywhere close to realistic, it wouldn't be in the IS before the clans showed up. To try to gloss over it is the same thing that causes so many logic holes in the story, it isn't funny. Retcons seem to very rarely work right.
Then you said the government can just seize any manufacturers facilities just because they didn't do exactly what the ruler wanted, when they wanted it. If they did, there would be NO private companies except for the ruling family, as the entire line would be seizing the factories for just the money they make, if not for their own fantasies. I am the ruler of the realm so I am the realm itself. Nothing happens unless I say it happens, is what it starts coming down to. Then change it all again as the next family member gains power, as they want it done their way.
And if you don't watch for the bad in mankind, you will be killed by the blindside as someone will do it just because they can. Until the base instinct of people using violence to get others to follow them, there can be no real peace from making all available to all. Someone will try to take it all from everyone and try to rule that way. No. It doesn't mean everyone is out to do this. But if you don't watch for those that will, you become the road kill from someone doing it.
There is NOTHING in that entry that even suggests social generals were formed in that time frame. You are very much putting in words that are not there.
Between the lines means the rulers were starting to conspire with each other against the political enemies they shared. It did NOT suggest any of the leaders rose, or stayed in power thru political favors. Their clans gained from such things, but the individual leaders did not remain in power from it. They all had to prove themselves thru what was established. Trial by combat.
If anything, it is at this point that the clans started moving away from their beginnings to become more like a political bloc. This is NOT the same thing as staying in leadership position by politics. Everyone could be challenged. Social generals could NOT be challenged by normal soldiers. Vlad was not normal, nor was the challenge done outside the higher reaches of the clan rulership.
Nicholas was using politics to get into the head position and hold the job. He died before the political century came about, as well as all of the other officers. So best have someone read that entry to you, word for word. Nothing between the lines supports your desire to have it say otherwise.
This is why you don't understand anything about the game. What you want it to say, it doesn't.
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Requiem
08/22/20 09:22 AM
1.158.133.26
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Then you said that they would have to obey the governments orders, including who and when they can sell their products to and to what specs they will fit. This is not the case today, nor was it in the SL.
“ by law, the United States must consider the possible negative consequences of every arms sale before approving it. “
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Export_Control_Act
https://www.dsca.mil/resources/arms-sales-congressional-review-process
“This summary reviews the process and procedures that currently apply to congressional consideration of foreign arms sales proposed by the President. This includes consideration of proposals to sell major defense equipment, defense articles and services, or the re-transfer to third party nations of such military items.”
Just to name a couple of the laws involved ….
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Then you said the government can just seize any manufacturers facilities just because they didn't do exactly what the ruler wanted.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=76857689-d3be-48ce-addf-d1b34ee15216
Legal article entitled “Can the Government Really Seize and Take Ownership of My Company’s Assets?”
Spoiler alert: Yes they can…
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There is NOTHING in that entry that even suggests social generals were formed in that time frame. You are very much putting in words that are not there.
Johnathan Cameron – who was having apocalyptic dreams of the destruction of Terra ….
Appointed Rebecca Fetladral Commander in Chief of the SLDF following her executing her predecessor …..
Due to the Dreams she pushed for the construction of of new fortifications, training of troops, and the completion of the Space Defense System ….
Upon her retirement from CIC of the SLDF she recommended her Aide Aleksandr Kerensky as the next CIC for the SLDF in 2738
Note the highest ranh he achieved in the Field is Captain (Commander as a single company)
Also note that an aide to CIC is Lieutenant Colonel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aide-de-camp
so not only is his rank no were high enough, he does not have the experience and there is also the issue as to why he was assigned the post by Rebecca ….
March 16 - Rebecca resigned as Commander-in-Chief …. citing fatigue from the constant controversy in pushing through the establishment of new fortifications, training of troops, and the completion of the Space Defense System …. Though in Rebecca’s mind it is to protect the Inner Sphere against Jonathan’s “prophetic visions”….
April 21 – Aleksandr Kerensky named Commander in Chief of the SLDF – by Jonathan Cameron, the same as Rebecca Fetladral …. As she convinced Jonathan that he would be able to finish the job of protecting Terra from his prophetic Dreams
August 1 – First Lord Jonathan Cameron Assassinated.
Kerensky was appointed by nepotism and the fact the First Lord was having bad dreams from a rank that was so far below any of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or any Corp Commander or any Army Commander …..
By all definitions HE IS A SOCIAL GENERAL – he was appointed not because of his military ability / experience in the military he was appointed due to his political connections with a deranged First Lord !
Go and look at the Kerensky Forum I set up, all the evidence is there ….
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Between the lines
Go back and read it ….. they are more political than warrior in certain areas …. Transferring to the Invasion of the IS – the Clans most definitely should have come off far worse than given in the Cannon …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Circle_of_Equals
“A Circle of Equals may also range upward toward several kilometers in diameter, for fully-armed, or Augmented, combat between individuals or entire units.”
Can anyone explain how a Clan can go from fighting in a circle of equals (Several KM) to that of an invasion which could be worldwide and could last months on end with no support services whatsoever?
It is clear the clans are only trained for the duel
They do not have the experience for any other fighting technique employed by the IS
How many times did a Trial of absorption or Annihilation occur? Which is the only time entire planetary wars occurred for Clans.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/20 12:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Consider is the key word. There have been a few in recent history that were done by one person ignoring the risks and ordering it done. But this is going on the lawful side. There are still weapons being made and sold without consent of the government. And this is those made in the country.
Go reread that entry. In 2947.. THAT DOES NOT MEAN before the exodus. Hmmm. HUGE spoiler there. So all the other crap you thru in there has absolutely no bearing on the entry. There is nothing there to even begin to support the complaint. Read between theses lines. Get your facts straight before trying to quote anything, that says something completely different, and only by adding in words, can you even begin to see something other then what is there.
This is starting to become very common in your responses.
The fact that the forces the clans met were not the entire worlds force in the same instance of time, nor did they have to fight for any real length of time. The invaders hit with basically a sneak attack, and the defenders were no where near ready to fight most of the time. The few they were, the extended ranges, combined with the skills to hit at those ranges, tended to destroy units before they could get in any sort of range to fire back. Lrms, Gauss rifles, and a few er weapons were about it. The LRMs are about the only common weapon available to all, and they aren't that good for focusing on specific spots.
This also comes with the magical sensors and ECM the clans have. This is just the developers not being consistent with their own rules of the game. When the IS gets ahold of clan machines, they magically revert to IS standards.
I agree that the invasion was lopsided with some bs in it, but it is very much like all sci fi writing. I also agree the clans should not have made it as far into the IS as they did as easily as they did.
The clans did have large scale battles, though they were mini duels for the most part. The lack of things like concentrated fire from vehicles from and ambush, that would have destroyed a mech or two is one of the bs things. But that goes to the clans ability to see anything on the world from their spot in the cockpit of their mechs (Rule inconsistency).
And just because the clan leaders said the invasion of a world was done, didn't mean it was. The guerillas were taking their toll that forced the clans to divert more of their troops to dealing with the issue.
Another issue with the numbers comes from how many jumpships and Warships were available to the clans. The number of worlds invaded would have meant they would need more FTL ships then they brought in. 9 monoliths and the warships for the Falcons would have meant they could not sit in any spot for long, as that meant 9 worlds for the monoliths and what ever many warships they had. With just those numbers, they could not have taken that many worlds that quickly.
But again. The back story does not make it so I can't play the game. It was meant to be entertaining while trying to fill in the blanks.
Rule violations is common with the game, as the 3050 construction rules allow all house to use tech from all other houses. That includes stealth armor from the CC, the C3 from the DC, the TSM from the FC, and the advances from the FWL. Also, house specific mechs were in forces other then the house, even though they were 'just made'.
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Requiem
08/23/20 04:39 AM
1.158.133.26
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Consider is the key word.
Suggest actually reading the congressional review process and the information regarding the Arms Export Control Act first.
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There are still weapons being made and sold without consent of the government.
Which governments? As a blanket statement is inaccurate. Then ask what do all these countries have in common and then extrapolate this information into the BattleTech Universe ….
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Social Generals
Is not Kerensky the Falter of the clans and the cornerstone upon which the Clans are built?
History has a funny way of glossing over the truth due to political expediency.
Conspiracy – petty acts – murder – attempted coup d’etat etc – how many act were committed not by warriors but by politicians ?
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The fact that the forces the clans met were not the entire worlds force in the same instance of time, nor did they have to fight for any real length of time.
And this occurred every single time …. Hansed Davion never once suggested to bring together the entire worlds military to engage the Clans in one area ?
This is beyond the realm of belief …. Especially when you consider the amount of knowledge that is gained on a per battle basis … as well as post the Dragoon Conference …..
The entire invasion is a sham, and requires a total re-write
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Another issue with the numbers comes from how many jumpships and Warships were available to the clans.
Clan Wolf –2 warships; 82 jumpships;
Jade Falcon –20 warships; 12 jumpships
Ghost Bears 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
The point is ? The story lacks a comprehensive understanding as to military tactics as well as the TO&E of all battles upon every world ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/23/20 12:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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The countries that have weapons being sold to hostile countries have top officials that are trying to gain some personal favor from the hostiles they are selling to, as well as relying on others to give them a truthful report on it, along with trying to negotiate some agreement like the return of hostages, or cession of hostilities. Sometimes it is to get that hostile to start harassing another hostile.
Why to you think weapons manufacturers are still being fined by the governments? They continue to get caught, though only when the bribes are not paid to the right people. And just like the big oils companies, 10 million dollars is a hardy laugh. They make that in the first few hours of selling gas or a few weapons. So the fines do not stop anything.
Not gonna be able to get out of the fact that the political century was NOT about social generals. The time frame marked did not have this happen. Those that committed the murders and such did not use politics to do or get out of punishment for those crimes.
Hanse may have thought of it for a few times in the initial invasion, but would have stopped such practice when the clans just dropped directly on those forces and wiped them out even faster. No matter what you want to say, Nondi and the Steiner commanders had control over the forces. Hanse said do this, and it was their opinions on how to perform the missions. That is the way of the military. Mission perimeters get sent down, and the think tank figures out what is needed, then the orders get sent to the regional, highest ranking officer in that area. They get changed to fit what is thought to be the best way to do the missions without getting units killed.
And still you seem to forget that the succession wars had the decoy attacks draw out everything, in order for the enemy to drop elsewhere and do what they came to do.
Battle basis? That information was spotty at best. The news or information on the battles rarely got off world, and wasn't believed most of the time it did reach intel/high command. Comstar was manufacturing normal coms data to make it appear as the world was still working like normal.
Rewrite? Fix the issues with not following their rules first. Some changes really changed how things got down, and more then a few were bent and broken in the continuity of the story.
There is issue one. The Falcons, if they split it up so only one ship went to each world, could only deal with 32 worlds at once. The idea of a single ship being used in each assault is actually going against the bidding process. Normally it was units from 2 different clusters at least, on up to two different galaxies, that bid to see who invades. Most started off with almost their entire force, then bid down. That would mean the forces had to be on site in order to be part of the bid. There was no 'wait. I have to bring these stars here' garbage.
The clans did not obliterate every unit on the world, as they had guerillas causing problems. The time frame of their 'victory' was based on their objectives. Taking the capital and forcing a surrender was their terms. Not a full cession of hostilities.
As stated, the Falcons used monoliths, and with the invasions, the warships were used to patrol the areas. So they could not patrol as well as sit around worlds so their compliment of warriors could bid on anything.
The amount of jumpships has to be able to carry the full forces of the clan touman in the IS. This is where logistics start to fail. To add to it, would be breaking the bid. Replacing destroyed ones would be acceptable, but you could not bring in another set of jumpships to be used in assaults in order to split your galaxy apart to hit multiple worlds. Yes, the jumpships and warships can do jumps once a week or more if batteries are used, but the clans did not normally win in a single battle. The tactics the IS uses would not allow that. The issues is engaging and fleeing from the clans, their range was horrible to deal with. And no. I seriously doubt the battle fields were mainly flat open lands.
But part two to the range, the clans had the speed over the IS. The Timberwolf was as fast as normal mediums. So most heavy and assault mechs were slower then it was. The slowest omni is the Dire Wolf at 3/5. That is about the only mech that normal IS mechs could match.
The power of the clan weapons could take out more armor, as take down a mech, faster. So pit like mechs that weren't completely changed, such as the Phoenix Hawk went to 80 tons, the clan mechs were able to take down the IS equivelent rather quickly and easily. The clans also tended to have more armor as well. The large pulse laser version of the Warhawk was far more powerful then an Awesome, and could hit far more often since it had the TCs on it.
The lack of vehicles in the stories does suggest they were purposefully ignored.
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Requiem
08/23/20 06:13 PM
1.158.133.26
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Why to you think weapons manufacturers are still being fined by the governments?
Question – how many individuals / companies are able to purchase the most advanced fighters / tanks ?
First, where are the arms dealers who supply based on money only – how many of these work in first world nations? – Ans: NONE – so that leaves only the periphery !;
Second, where are their attachments to intelligence organization supplying weapons to resistance terrorists – the problem being the TPTB have not created the number of resistance fringe groups that would warrant this amount of trade – and they are all being assisted by the rich and powerful who can buy weapons legally for their military – thus making this avenue of illegal purchases irrelevant;
Third, where are the intelligence organizations supplying weapons to small governments whom you are attempting to keep on your side - legal sales of goods with all licenses intact; as they are a pat of your local worlds governments;
Fourth, Black-market - small goods not a problem – however as you continually point out the inner sphere does not have the resources to manufacture ‘Mechs en mass thus making it impossible to manufacture anything that the government would not know about, that is unless every military manufacture in the IS also has a secret manufacturing facility on the side – and the problem with this is that as you have pointed out repeatedly the Inner Sphere does not have the technology – so again making this situation unbelievable;
As for the rich and powerful – they all purchase them legally as they don’t need to get them illegally, they do not need the intelligence organizations investigating them for illegal arms involvement – they have the money and the connections to get them legally for their security force – so again this is quite implausible;
Again proof please ….
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the political century
Continue to re-read – to gain the position of Khan required the POLITICAL backing of the other named warriors – it helps if you can get you people named who then owe you …
Can’t have it both ways – “Why do you think weapons manufacturers are still being fined by the governments? “ – if rich people are this bad, then the Clans are also just as capable of being this bad …… you cannot push one human nature story and say the other is impossible just because they are Clans, human nature does not change !
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Those that committed the murders and such did not use politics to do or get out of punishment for those crimes.
And how did they get into those crimes, what was their motivation ….. could I have been political in nature ?
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Hanse may have thought of it for a few times in the initial invasion, but would have stopped such practice when the clans just dropped directly on those forces and wiped them out even faster.
Really? Dividing your forces in the face of a technologically advanced enemy id about a stupid as it comes – the ONLY solution remaining is choosing the correct ground to reduce their range advantage followed by concentration of forces ….
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No matter what you want to say, Nondi and the Steiner commanders had control over the forces.
Again lawful orders via the Chain of Command .. the FC has one and only one Chain of Command, it is not until Katherine separates the two back to their original entities is the chain of command separated …..
So again Nondi can ONLY issue orders as per the normal Chain of Command ……
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And still you seem to forget that the succession wars had the decoy attacks draw out everything, in order for the enemy to drop elsewhere and do what they came to do.
Units operational efficiency is only as good as it’s military intelligence ….
Each contact intelligence gains more information, that information is supplied to regional commanders the better they perform against Clan Tactics …. Something TPTB completely forgot about, except on three occasions …..
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The news or information on the battles rarely got off world, and wasn't believed most of the time it did reach intel/high command.
First many units survivors DID get off world – go back and re-read the majority of the Battles – gun camera pictures and incident reports would be believed to do otherwise is again poor writing and understanding of military procedure …. Military Intelligence is not that stupid …
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Comstar was manufacturing normal coms data to make it appear as the world was still working like normal.
And when survivors get off world questions will be asked, ones ComStar will not be able to answer if it occurs on multiple occasions ….
So again re-write the entire story for a new more sophisticated audience or expect the franchise to fall …. Warhammer is too far in the front at this stage … the story is too one dimensional, does not take into account people from other areas of the military and quite frankly they do not have the numbers – books / models / access to markets and their target market etc.
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There is issue one. The Falcons, if they split it up so only one ship went to each world, could only deal with 32 worlds at once.
Problem is the Jump-ship jumps to one system then drops off the Drop-ships who proceed in system – whist the Jump-ship and the remaining Drop-ships perform a hot jump to a second system where they release the remainder of their Drop-ships into a second system and they are at worst only 48 hours behind the first group dropped – and then depending on the number of days it takes to reach the invasion planet they could still have attacked their invasion world on the same day.
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The clans did not obliterate every unit on the world, as they had guerillas causing problems.
Again how can the clans operate at distances from their base when they didn’t have mobile supply units
Second how can they operate on the front lines when larger and larger number of units are required to garrison worlds – they have limited numbers – over time the number of garrisons will eat up on the numbers available to continue the invasion - and with a PGC of only two regiments this makes the game even more ludicrous ….
Numbers do not lie the invasion was getting ridiculous ….
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the clans had the speed over the IS.
And how does that speed work against the majority of cavalry hovercraft who can envelop then en-mass?
Again this is looking at the war from the point of Mech Vs Mech remember the IS has access to all the toys the Clans don’t have access to – the IS has flexibility the Clans do not – the IS have access to supply and resupply and reinforcements at a rate the clans could only dream of …. The invasion as it progresses becomes more and more ridiculous to believe … it does not open up options – it does not even create new scenarios of fighting the Clans – in truth the Invasion story as is, is boring!
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The clans also tended to have more armor as well.
The IS have more Vehicles + Fighters + Bombers + Artillery ……
As stated the vehicles were purposefully ignored – once introduced the Clans would not survive …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/23/20 10:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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Where are all the cloaked ships with transporters that regularly ply the invasion zones to supply all these weapons to the resistance movements? Oh yeah. I forgot. They are emailed to them.
Where did the yakuza get all their mechs before they were accepted into the DCMS? How many nobles bought personal units that the main government never knew of until something happened? Michael Hasek Davion had more then a few units the FS didn't know about. Skye was selling weapons to whom ever they wanted to. But then it would require reading the material and not putting in words that aren't there.
What? You mean the clans are horrible people, but the IS lord can't be? Yet human nature can't change? Keep going. You will soon destroy all of your excuses on why things can't be the way they are, and how things are the way, but not thru the looking glass. Human nature can change. It tends to revert back to the animalistic nature when those with money and power decide that they are chosen to be the ultimate rulers, and end up just committing crime after crime against their own subjects. Always someone to pull the crowd back into the bad times. Dictators tend to do this.
Assassination is not based in politics, but the desire for power at all costs. They are not the same thing, though politics tends to use assassinations. Politics is using leverage, such as black mail or bribes, to get your way without others finding out. Politicians hire assassins, as they can't risk their own health to do it themselves.
Greed has politics using it, but there are other things that use it too. It almost seems like the term politics isn't what you think it is.
Oh yeah. The politics to become a khan was in effect BEFORE 2947, so where is the bs spin to suggest it started in the political century?
How well did having all your forces in one location when nukes and orbital bombardments took them out all at once? The age of the castle was over when canons were introduced. Gee. So when you can kill more faster, it isn't a smart idea to have all in one location to be wiped out? And even worse, as you can't get out in order to stop the enemy from shelling you, as your forces can't get by each other or the wreckage of those before you. So keep with your concentrations, and lose. You can't run a world if you don't have forces around the world keeping your authorization going.
Pg 19 and 23 of the 20 year update. Federates Suns State Command. Lyran Commonwealth State Command. Wow. One chain of command.. It starts with each nation having their own command structure. But comprehensive reading suggests that the SL obliterated Omi Kurita's advocado garden before Sun Tzu surrendered the CC to the FC. Amaris was cloned and returning to retake Terra for the Amaris Empire. It's right there between the lines. Wait. I don't live in the fantasy world like that. The FC has their own chain of command, one for each nation as it was before the merger.
One of the first units to engage the clans and got away was the Kell Hounds. If they weren't believed, then who would believe a few stragglers with damaged battle roms? OOops. One of the premier units, which Kell lost his son in the first battle, was not taken as fact. Morgan would have definitely demanded the FRR or the FC to properly investigate it. Hmmm.
Not even close. Each world had units bidding to see who would attack it, and with what forces. Both sides of the bid had to stay there, as failure of the wining bid, including their last bid before the win, would have to take over attacking the world. So no. You would not have jumpships dropping off units then jumping to another systems to drop off more. How many units were kept in reserve for the bid of Rassalhague? But that isn't how the rest of the bidding goes. They just drop a star on one world, then jump out, not knowing if that star failed or not until a few days to weeks later. Sheesh.
Funny. Even tracked vehicles have issues going thru woods, and hovers can't even think about it. The clans can hit hovers moving full out and take them down. It is rare that a company or larger is all hovers. And then, a lot of hovers can't take much punishment before dropping. The heavier the hover, the slower it goes. Savanaha Masters can get in quick, but a single hit with a clan ML takes it out. No turret, so has to turn to face a unit they are firing on. And that is saying the Fire Moth is not being used, as it can keep up with more hovers.
Also, elementals tended to deal with a lot of the vehicles, which for some reason, the vehicle sensors couldn't detect them. Hell, the mech sensors had that issue as well. So rule issues there.
That is the issue with the entire game. People don't want to fight hordes of vehicles. They want mech on mech. So the entire history of vehicles is one that gets forgotten a lot. It isn't just the clan invasion.
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Requiem
08/24/20 07:08 AM
1.158.133.26
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Flippancy in unbecoming …..
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Where did the yakuza get all their mechs before they were accepted into the DCMS?
Ronin on hard times ….. How else is property sold yet through the exchange of legal documents, deeds of ownership – all above board and legal.
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Michael Hasek Davion had more than a few units the FS didn't know about
Please, do list these unknown units’ designations …
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It tends to revert back to the animalistic nature when those with money and power decide that they are chosen to be the ultimate rulers, and end up just committing crime after crime against their own subjects
i.e. the majority of Clan Khans throughout their entire history – starting with Nicholas – who reverted back to their animalistic nature, which would become to be known as the Clan Warrior – I also find it interesting that the Clans recognized their animalistic nature in that of their animal face masks they wear.
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Assassination is not based in politics, but the desire for power at all costs.
Please do explain the difference to Gavrilo Princip and John Wilkes Booth
What power were they to receive post assassination and who hired them?
Politics – Aristotle’s Polis – Plato’s Statesman – Werner Jaeger – Carnes Lord - which one? Or just the governance of a country or area and the debate regarding power and how it is used ……
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so where is the bs spin to suggest it started in the political century
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Cloud_Cobra
“In 2934 Khan Corian Tchernovkov of the Coyotes and ilKhan of all the Clans perished in a training accident. Khan Tobias Khatib of the Cloud Cobras was elected to take her place in 2935,”
“By 2948 the Snow Ravens 'uncovered' and presented evidence that Khatib had been complicit in the death of Tchernovkov. For his crimes Khan Khatib was executed.”
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How well did having all your forces in one location when nukes and orbital bombardments took them out all at once?
Literal Translation ?
Question:- How many times did the Clans use a nuclear weapon or an orbital bombardment upon an enemy military during the Clan Invasion ? Ans: None
Remember the Clans are hidebound to their traditions when it comes to the Invasion of the Inner Sphere.
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The age of the castle was over when canons were introduced.
And then with the introduction of the Castle Brian they were once more reintroduced ….
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So when you can kill more faster, it isn't a smart idea to have all in one location to be wiped out?
And with a Castel Brian as well as multiple evacuation tunnels to allow your forces ingress and egress at multiple points in a battle in an area that restricts clan speed and firepower at the same time the idea of concentrating you forces is a no brainer ….. or have the Clans forgotten what Battlefield honor is so quickly when it comes to war ?
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And even worse, as you can't get out in order to stop the enemy from shelling you,
And when was the first Clan artillery unit seen on the battlefield ? and what is the maximum range of an IS Artillery piece compared to this ?
Since when did the Clans start manufacturing / using the Long Tom ? (30 Maps)
Also Conventional Aircraft – Bombers when did the Clans start using these ?
If the Clan did not bid fighters in the mix I can bomb them back into the stone-age with impunity when I use gravity bombs and I am outside their guns range (due to altitude)
Again another example of how the lack of vehicles in the game demonstrates the stupidity of the Canon writings as to the Clan Invasion ! As demonstrated in the forum on the subject every Great House has a massive conventional fighter program making the idea of Mechs as the king of the Battlefield very dubious …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raubvogel
and this mass is only 45t - and now for the next super fortress …..
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You can't run a world if you don't have forces around the world keeping your authorization going.
And yet we are supposed to believe a trinary of Clan Mechs is able to do this at any one point in time ?
Remember deplete your forces for Garrisons means that the front line forces become reduced in numbers at the same time – especially when you are only allowed a limited number of forces to begin with !
Thus proving the fact that mathematics must be taken into consideration, as to the Clans Invasion of the Inner Sphere,. …… plus it would have been great if they had included after battle battlefield damage reports ….
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Pg 19 and 23 of the 20 year update. Federates Suns State Command. Lyran Commonwealth State Command …. The FC has their own chain of command, one for each nation as it was before the merger.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Armies
the Marshal oversaw the day-to-day operations of the AFFC, including presiding over meetings of the High Command and, in a crisis, assuming direct command over a military operation.
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One of the first units to engage the clans and got away was the Kell Hounds. If they weren't believed, then who would believe a few stragglers with damaged battle roms?
All this proves is that there was exceedingly bad writing and absolutely no understanding as to battlefield intelligence operations …..
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So no. You would not have jumpships dropping off units then jumping to another systems to drop off more.
Question: when does the bidding have to take place ?
Ans: ANYTIME before the invasion of that planet – thus this means this could be days even weeks before the actual invasion – thus making the transport of units to multiple locations achievable.
It also demonstrates the Clans desire not to waste resources if they can use one ship for multiple world invasions – A very Clan thing to do !
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But that isn't how the rest of the bidding goes. They just drop a star on one world, then jump out, not knowing if that star failed or not until a few days to weeks later. Sheesh.
Question: What happens if the invading Clan unit wants to bring in additional forces from the previous bid - ask for a time out until they can arrive?
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The clans can hit hovers moving full out and take them down. It is rare that a company or larger is all hovers.
Then why is there a Regimental level classification for them in regards to the RCTs ?
What happens to a Clan unit when hit by multiple regiments all at the same time?
Sorry but they can’t hit them all and they will fall – progressive waves will slowly destroy them ….
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That is the issue with the entire game. People don't want to fight hordes of vehicles. They want mech on mech.
And yet there are others that will run an entire game from beginning to end with the entire TO&E of RCTs, developing strategies and choosing maps specifically to put the hurt on the Clans to see how far they get before they are reduced to scrap.
Much like a chess game you have multiple maps and you work out time movements and engagement strategies – otherwise it is just a small game set in a small area of land – ie a Clan Circle of Equals – and frankly this just get boring after a while – the game needs to evolve ….. there needs to be a Battle Force overall game and when units engage they are transferred to the second map to fight it out ….
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So the entire history of vehicles is one that gets forgotten a lot.
And yet there are others who remember – if TPTB don’t want vehicles then don’t include them in the TRO, otherwise include them in the war and work them into the war – otherwise it is just creating a false narrative of the actual war.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/24/20 12:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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So all the Yakuza leaders were ex soldiers? Not even close. And starting mercs buying mechs? Even normal mercs buying mechs. There is only the company's direction on who they sell to, with the government finding out about SOME of the time. And this does not even cover using 3rd and 4th parties to buy them. This also does not cover the weapon makers that are based on Terra.
Well did you read the rest of that paragraph? Of course not. It was said that politics tends to use assassins. You can use assassins to do more then politics. Taking out a mad man is one of the main things that comes to mind. Not a leader, but say a ranking general, or scientist. The closest thing to politics that comes to is they are part of an opposing force. It is not to gain a position like becoming a president.
Again. The example you show is before 2947 for the action. There is nothing in the wiki that suggests the political century was about social generals. Social generals have been in the military since there has been a military. The time frame does NOT showcase any sort of increase. It was about the clans joining together to be more effective crusaders/wardens, instead of just agreeing at times. It moved from each clan going alone to the sides forming. Only thing between the lines is made up.
And yet you keep saying the clans can not possess warships, as there is nothing to stop them from using them for a bombardment, like Turtle Bay. But I wasn't asking about the clan invasion. I was asking how many times did real logic enter the game and all of your forces being in one location get wiped out from such an act? You CAN NOT have all your forces in one location and guard everything you need to guard. Some real life tactics that eludes you.
Ferrocrete was introduced, but the castles still fell to things like nukes and orbital bombardments. There will always be someone trying to build a fortress to defend from, but for the most part, trying to build the ultimate fortress is a waste of time. A good defense is not the same thing.
The idea of concentration of forces is not something that happened just from the clan invasion. It is the very reason why anywhere you would rule would be unable to sustain your military. Everything outside of where your fort is at, would be completely wrecked. And it is very possible your main fort would be destroyed as well. Your entire force would head out after the enemy, and they would definitely hit the base while they are gone. The enemy would remove anything useful from your range to get at them, and the term combat group losses will show up in big bold letters. But then you will come up with some garbage about having everything made at the base including dropships and fighters, along with every type of engine and combat unit available.
The numbers don't work well, but the sticking to the capital being the only point you have to control has been established in the game for a while. They have kept his pretty consistent. I think it is stupid, but it is part of the game.
Actually, you need to learn about the Batchall. The bidding takes place AFTER issuing the intent to invade. You can not bid if you don't know what you are up against. If you had actually read and comprehended this, the entire issue with bidding would not have been posted.
And you would have to hit soon after the challenge as the enemy could prepare better defenses the longer you wait. For the clans, they rarely had something like a trap set up to be used if attacked. For the IS, well they would have their little fire lanes and such set up, so denying them that would be necessary. The clans are eager to engage, but smart enough to know they don't want the extra garbage of local defenses being involved.
The unit commander would pretty much know his forces won't take the prize, and send them in early enough to do some good. If it is too late, then they would not waste the units by even trying. Also, the loss of face for bidding to low creates it's own problems, which include but not limited to: losing any sort of backing for higher positions, having your genes used in the breeding program, leading to multiple trials of grievance, being sent back into a trial of position to see if you got thru the last one by a fluke. For an IS opponent, the clans tended to bid under the number of defenders, but against another clan, they didn't always invade with less forces then the defender had.
People run RCTs not to fight with each unit, but for the prestige of it. You have 8 regiments of mixed forces under one title, while mech regiments tend to be their own entity. You could use Brigade as the title for it, but that suggests more mech units.
I have played with a group that did run some tanks and infantry. Part of why I say the change in how infantry take damage would change the history of the game. But most want the big stompy mechs, as it allows them to use trees and kicks to kill an enemy unit. Ranged fire against someone that knows what they are doing is very tedious. No rolls being less then 8, with some being over 12. Except open areas for hovers, only minimum range tends to keep the rolls that high.
And what was shown as an example is why people love their death matches, though they try to claim it's not. Most play last one standing wins. But I understand it, as not everyone has a full weekend to play the game. Worse, some of us have pets that don't like having their table filled with things, and knock over stuff. Some actual missions can be won without a full fire fight. Something most really never even try to accomplish.
Again, you don't seem to get the concept of the game. Vehicles are supposed to be the main defenders of large land areas, with infantry guarding specific buildings. That can not be the case if only mechs are available. The game took the players desires and shifted it over to more of a mech on mech. But with the lack of production the game tries to suggest, there can not be mechs guarding everything, nor can they be the only thing used to assault worlds.
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Requiem
08/24/20 02:20 PM
1.158.133.26
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So all the Yakuza leaders were ex soldiers? Not even close.
Yakuza Ghost Regiments were created prior to 3039 and were made into DCMS warriors – or don’t they exist anymore?
Prospective Yakuza come from all aspects of society.
Also suggest research be undertaken with regards to the issue during the Edo period - also have a look at their recent history with regards to the stock exchange and share ownership and the number of businesses created and owned by them – Thus, how many businesses within the DC have security forces that include ‘Mechs and have ties to them?
And again property can be bought and sold during any era during which they can gain access to older military equipment - tank clubs and private ownership of older jet fighters exist today so why not in the 3050’s ….. etc…..
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There is nothing in the wiki that suggests the political century was about social generals.
Clan Mongoose
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Some real life tactics that eludes you.
Really? …. Read Sun Tzu Lately? Know yourself, know your enemy ……
You are consigning yourself to 4th Succession War and prior to this way of thinking when it comes to waging war – much the same as WW1 Generals did – did no one look at the American Civil War and understand that the rules of war had changed?
The same can be said here – there rules of war have undergone a paradigm shift – get on board with the new rules of waging war or die due to antiquated and outdated rules when assigning forces to locations.
Suggest you revisit the battles where the IS forces won against the Clans and look for the similarities as well as understand how the enemy fights.
The Clans do not care about the antiquated notion of guarding important positions – they go where the enemy forces are – and dividing your forces in the face of the enemy has always been a dumb idea! Again look at the Batchall – they stipulate the objective ……
In a stand up fight with a technologically superior force there is really only one solution – minimize their advantages (speed / firepower / sensors –refer to the DC win) and utilize concentrated multiple wave attacks.
Thus in understanding the new enemy doctrine the IS must adapt or perish …..
As for warships and orbital bombardments this has been discussed so many times that there is no real point in discussing it again …. either accept a Navy war or accept a nuclear war, choose …..
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Ferrocrete was introduced, but the castles still fell to things like nukes and orbital bombardments.
Requiring multiple sustained strikes to breach …..
But again the Clans do not use these as operational attacks within the Invasion …. So again choose Navy Way or nuclear war …..
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trying to build the ultimate fortress is a waste of time.
Not in my opinion …. The Clans NEVER used nukes or Orbital Bombardments on IS forces ……
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But then you will come up with some garbage about having everything made at the base including dropships and fighters, along with every type of engine and combat unit available.
You understand how the enemy fights and why the enemy fights.
You understand the objectives of the enemy.
You adapt. You overcome. You improvise.
Understand the era, Understand the tactics of that era …..
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Actually, you need to learn about the Batchall. The bidding takes place AFTER issuing the intent to invade.
Read the rules not every time …. “It almost always involves ….”
And if ComStar is feeding them intel they know what is on each world and they know how many forces should be sent to the world to bid for the right to attack it …. Thus maximizing the number of worlds they can strike in any one wave ……
Thus they can drop of enough forces to bid for an objective world and not reduce their overall effectiveness …..
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Also, the loss of face for bidding to low creates it's own problems
What happens if many believe you have bid too low and yet you come out the other side as the victor? You become a RiStar – you name is placed up for a Blood name – your genes get entered into the gene-program ….
Again the bidding varies from Clan to Clan ….
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People run RCTs not to fight with each unit, but for the prestige of it.
And yet others run a massive game that could last multiple weekends as multiple battles are fought until one side quits the Battlefield and retreats …. Depends upon whom you are fighting and the time-period you are in ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/24/20 06:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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The yakuza had mech long before 3025, much less 3035 or later. And those are confirmed in the game as the pilots were using them before they were allowed. The Black Dragon Society is another big entity that has mechs, even though they are outlawed specifically by the coordinator. Heimdall and a few others scattered around the IS as well.
What did the clan Mongoose entry say? Before 2947 the soon to be khan had the backing of some blood named. It did not say at 2947 or later. The khan was caught and punished at that time. So the statement about the political century made by you is false.
The clans don't care about guarding things? You definitely have not read the invasion of Huntress then. You haven't bothered with the truth that the rebels were not stealing clan omnis at every turn. Why? Because they were, oh lord wait for it, GUARDED when in the storage bays. And what do you know. They had to guard everything they wanted to keep in the home worlds, least another clan come and challenge for it. There is no waiting a few days to get forces in the area. It is very much a sign of weakness if you don't guard things.
And the statement of real life tactics eludes you was about having every last unit in one giant location and not worrying about getting wiped out. As pointed out in the past, the military guards more things then just one location. It is IMPOSSIBLE to guard just one location and remain a force to be contended with. You would lose EVERYTHING that isn't in or next to the little fort. After a while, even air support wouldn't be flying. The Brian Castles were not impervious. They were not easy to take, but it was done. And now apply that to what Kerensky would have to face heading in to remove Amaris. They owned the TH ones.
But there is no way to defend an entire world from one spot. Your forces would arrive to late, if they didn't get shot down being moved in the first place.
Figure 400 miles from Phoenix, Arizona to Los Angeles, California. A mech moving at 100 kph would not make it in under 4 1/2 to 5 hours. And that is being nice. Point 6 miles is a kilometer.
And now add in the statement that all forces would go, once your units were 4 or so hours out, the base would be hit and fall before you could get back. ALL your forces are said to go.
Maybe you should look up that statement of canons being the end of castles. That was from history, not the future. Artillery removed the castle as the main defense point. Even today, they are not making huge forts as they are not even close to being impenetrable. It would be foolish to even think they could be. Not a single miltiary relies on one location to house units. Why is that? Your statements seem to think dumb logic. That is not the case.
So again, you rush into building things to try and negate the clans by using information that wasn't available to the IS at the time, and this runs counter to all the battles fought since the SL fell. Then say it was the only way it could have gone. Your ability to see into the future has been shown to be wrong. You seem to say the IS should have been preparing for the clans since the 3025 game start. And you still don't see where that is a major logic fail. I would suggest taking off a week and actually rereading the books. There is so much in canon you don't seem to know, and yet harp on it with flawed information.
Take your advice about the tactics of the era. The clans did not behave as the IS did when they invaded. The houses were used to other tactics, such as pulling back when heavily damaged or ejecting when on the verge of dying. The clans did neither. So the entire 250 years of succession war was ill equipped to deal with the clans. Yet you don't seem to comprehend this.
And yet tradition still runs while doing the IS invasion Batchalls. That did not change because they had intel from Comstar. Each unit still performed their normal routines in bidding. And this still doesn't negate the fact that the two units that bid, remained at the same world until the battle for it was over. So again, they did not just drop off a unit, jump to a new system, drop off another, then come back for the first unit. For the clans, the battle is much like Solaris. They watch with intent. Seeing what mistakes the winning bid units do, and using that to their advantage. Even if it is nothing more then upsetting those that won.
Where did the idea of bidding to low change from losing a battle because you did not bid enough forces, get changed to winning the fight? The loss of face would not happen when you win. Where is the comprehension there? Read the whole paragraph, and understand it all before responding with such garbage as this.
No. The size of the game does not deal with the era of the game you are fighting in. It deals with how much time you have in real life to actually play the game. Moving a single RCT in a game would take over half an hour, if you skip some things. It would more likely be over an hour for one side. You can use large numbers to fight any scenario in any time period. How much of your life will be devoted to doing so?
Basic facts and logic.
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Requiem
08/25/20 03:52 AM
1.158.133.26
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So the statement about the political century made by you is false.
Comprehension of facts …… the political century stands, the road to a bloodname is littered with nepotism …..
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The Clans do not care about the antiquated notion of guarding important positions – they go where the enemy forces are – and dividing your forces in the face of the enemy has always been a dumb idea! Again look at the Batchall – they stipulate the objective ……
Comprehension of just one part of a statement is meaningless – try again with the totality of the statement ….
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Even today, they are not making huge forts as they are not even close to being impenetrable.
Cheyenne Mountain Complex;
Chiashan Air Force Base
Dulce Base
Raven Rock Mountain Complex
Zeljava Air Base ….. over 1,000 world wide
As for the Inner Sphere Bases should have become a staple form of defense upon the majority of all border worlds ….
Complete lack of understanding basic strategies when it comes to defensive warfare utilizing space forces…
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So again, you rush into building things to try and negate the clans by using information that wasn't available to the IS at the time ….
Try again …. Construction of bases within the IS would have become complex from the time of the Exodus onwards – Succession Wars + Nukes (WMDs) = Massive underground fortresses
What is demonstrated here is a lack of understanding as to the natural progression of military offensive and defensive tactics - the underground fortress equipped with massive doors and internal weapons systems built specifically to contain and destroy is something the Clans and the IS have never uncounted ….
Also the German 88 started off as an AA gun – then look how it was used ….
Then compare this to a a long tom – and what happens to a Dropship if the round is fired the same as an 88 anti tank gun?
Good-by drop-ship ……
This is the problem with the game adaptation to new fighting strategies …..too many just want to think in the box and refuse to think any other way ….. it is very badly written …..
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So the entire 250 years of succession war was ill equipped to deal with the clans. Yet you don't seem to comprehend this.
No this is where the problem is … the 250 years of Clan playing pretend war for the most part with circles of equals have ill prepared them for the realities of war in the IS …. Where are their support vehicles when wars drag on for months …. Where is their reinforcement numbers when the IS starts attrition warfare Vs the Clan sibko system …. Where is the the clans understanding of what happens when a closed society is introduced to an open society ….. where are the Clans understanding of what numbers are required to effectively garrison an IS world …. And the list goes on and on
The Clans have no understanding at all as to what it takes to invade the IS with any logistical efficiency ….
The only way they ended as they did is by the TPTB creating a story that has no basis in reality and is by far the most unbelievable story to date …
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They watch with intent.
Inefficient use of resources and if used this way would mean the amount of worlds taken should be far less than that was given within the Canon Novels and the majority of warriors are now negated to little more than spectators as the invasion progresses ….
Try again …….
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Where did the idea of bidding to low change from losing a battle because you did not bid enough forces
Phelan and Natasha
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The size of the game does not deal with the era of the game you are fighting in. It deals with how much time you have in real life to actually play the game.
Time per week is immaterial – it is what is done that is important – run a game that takes a year to complete with hundreds of small battles that are ALL fought to determine a winner – it is up to the gamers as to how the game is played …..
It all comes down to how much time to allot per week …. Basic facts and logic!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/20 11:59 AM
66.74.60.165
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The entire history of politics is last with favoritism. The political century did nothing to change that. You might as well say the golden age of the SL was all about politics. Comprehension of fact isn't what that is. It is putting in your own words in order to make it sound like you want. The original statement you made was the political century was about social generals. That is false. None of the people promoted into the high positions of power were inept or did not have military training. This very fact is why the statement is false.
I see you didn't read, or purposefully left out the examples of the clans being vigilant on guard duty. It shuts down the idea that they don't bother with guarding things. Another showing of a failure to understand logic.
Out of all of those bases listed, how many hold the entire nations troops in them?
Oh wait. They are HQ's, not bases for the entire military. Guess that is proven wrong. There is no such thing as a nations entire military being posted to one location. They are spread out to cover everything they can, while having some reserves.
So the idea that armor and weapons have not advanced since the 1900s? Good to know you don't seem to think so.
So what is the 88 in the game? A naval autocanon? The hyperspace shell that blows planets apart? Or is it an ac 10? 20? maybe even a 5. Your example suggests it is more powerful then a long tom round. It is nice to see something new in the discussion, but really. Tell us where it would fit in the given weapons, or do you think it is far beyond those listed. While at it, where do the 16 inch battleship guns fit into the game?
The rush to build underground bunkers was thwarted by the fact that so much was destroyed in the first war, that when the second rolled out, not much was rebuilt. And from there, they couldn't get caught up with a lot of necessary things, like clean water and such. It was only during the 3000's time frame that started a major rebuilding, as major assaults were no longer happening. Raids were still a big problem, but tapered of enough that the really dedicated rulers started making headway. Your complaint about the supplies the clans had, doesn't seem to apply to the resources the IS had as well as the proper people in the right places, to rebuild properly.
Defiance took 10 years of SL assets to carve out. That mean over abundance of manpower, expertise, and resources devoted towards it. That was to carve it out. How much longer did it take to actually build the manufacturing lines?
What does the clans not being prepared for extended campaigns have to do with the IS fighting the succession wars, and not being ready for the clans. Your track record of comprehending the discussion lately has been poor. And you wonder why it is being questioned about things that are not in the books.
The clan warriors watch the attacks with intent. Those that won the bid, and those that lost to the winners. The fact that the numbers of worlds that fell is off, hasn't really been questioned except for the fact that with the given ships and the clans bidding process, they would not have taken that many, unless the worlds fell within days of the initial contact. Those worlds that had all their forces together could fall into this category, those that were spread out in ambushes and such would. It would take time to find them, as Comstar would not have the location of each unit, just what units were stationed on the world.
Comprehension failure again. You can bid as low as you want. Losing face comes from failing to take the prize. You do not lose face if you take the prize with low numbers, as it actually increases your standing when you do. The only time winning with low numbers causes a loss of face is when you are forced to call down your last bid. Not sure, except wanting to start an argument, where those statements were twisted.
Also, Phelan won. So the concept of losing does not apply there. Logic failure.
The response has nothing to do with the size of the game based on the era you are playing in.
Depends upon whom you are fighting and the time-period you are in …
This is the last statement in your post of 8/24/20 2:20 pm.
So where does the era limit the amount of units you are fighting with? Besides the fact that there is a limit to how many units are in the entire game? You can run RCT on RCT during any time era.
The return response was...No. The size of the game does not deal with the era of the game you are fighting in. It deals with how much time you have in real life to actually play the game.
You can devote as much time as you want, the era of the game you are playing in is not limit the number of forces.
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Requiem
08/25/20 07:01 PM
1.158.133.26
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None of the people promoted into the high positions of power were inept or did not have military training.
Try again ….. look at the clans not through rose colored glasses and view them with truth …..
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I see you didn't read, or purposefully left out the examples of the clans being vigilant on guard duty. It shuts down the idea that they don't bother with guarding things. Another showing of a failure to understand logic.
I see you did not bother to understand the underlying mathematics of a guard unit per planet in order to maintain any forces on the front line just as TPTB did not understand the mathematical mechanics of invasion and refused to create a realistic war – thus creating the seeds for where the game and the brand finds itself now …
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Out of all of those bases listed, how many hold the entire nations troops in them?
Comprehension as to strategic importance here and now Vs. strategic importance within the Battletech Universe.
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So the idea that armor and weapons have not advanced since the 1900s?
Comprehension of reading once more? – the theoretical uses of weapons other than what they were originally created for …..
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The rush to build underground bunkers was thwarted by the fact that so much was destroyed in the first war,
As stated many times the only way this premise holds true is if EVERY world was bombed back to the stone age – as this didn’t happen this entire premise is a politician’s syllogism …. Try again …..
As for Defiance – the issue of the time taken to build is not the issue the issue is that it was built – and how many other facilities were built underground? Only to be re-discovered in the future? Snord’s … the Dragoon on Outreach …..etc etc
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What does the clans not being prepared for extended campaigns have to do with the IS fighting the succession wars ….
Logistics for one …. Replacement personnel due an accurate Force Depletion Report ….. Attrition warfare and its effects on military sustainability …. Total warfare economic drive ….. etc etc
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The fact that the numbers of worlds that fell is off, hasn't really been questioned
The Wolves …..
Their entire system is built not expediency but on floundering about being spectators for the home team.
If vehicles and infantry were utilized correctly …. And TPTB actually kept track of Clan Losses and didn’t fude their figures back to 100% operational strength all the time this would have been a far different game. Especially if they had someone who understood large scale wars …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/20 07:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Social generals are inept for military purposes. The term does not cover being unable to do other functions. The clans know tactics and fighting. Strategy may be weak, but they do have others doing that job. As their history involves keeping within a months worth of jumpship range, they were never much for needing supplies over a long range. The lack of ability to pilot a jumpship or dropship isn't a definition of the social general. Even someone that can't use a gun isn't the definition of a social general, though it would be thought as such. The social general is one that sits way behind the lines and orders others to do things, even if the general doesn't understand what is actually going to happen.
ALL the clan members that got promoted knew tactics. They may not have been the best, but they did have experience in doing so.
You forget we had the discussion about the garrison numbers being too small? That still does not negate the fact that even the clans do not have all their forces in one location, nor do the ignore guarding things. And this was about the illogical argument that you can guard an entire world from one location. You can't.
Comprehend this. ALL those locations DO NOT have every soldier in their country stationed there. That is what we were talking about. Not the importance of a CIC, but having everyone in one location. And bringing up the locations here is another example of having to guard more then just one base.
What is the reason for a FOB? Rally point? Even just having remote bases?
Do you remember this statement?
Then compare this to a a long tom – and what happens to a Dropship if the round is fired the same as an 88 anti tank gun?
Good-by drop-ship ……
This is a pure lie. Except for the thru armor crit, a single long tom round does NOT kill a dropship. Using an 88 anti tank round will NOT destroy a dropship with a single round.
This really makes me think you have no idea on the game mechanics at all. Naval weapons do more damage then a long tom. So try and comprehend the real printed words.
Other uses of the weapons would be shelling cities, and convoys. Hitting bases from a range, as most do NOT have artillery to fire back, and even if they did, they would have to know where you are at.
Yeah. SL bunkers were done, which took how long? How much money was spent along with resources to build underground. And the SL was supposed to be the protector of all, so wasting money doing it yourself wasn't necessary at the time. When it was learned that it was needed, it was too late to prevent the destruction. But you seem to have a problem with time lines.
As things like the Fox's Den were built underground, the idea that NOTHING was it false. Cities have underground shelters to house some of the population. But to see that, you would actually have to read the books and what is printed, not what you want to see printed.
The discussion of the IS not being ready for the clan tactics has nothing to do with the clans not having the supplies on hand to reach Terra in one push. The IS was running on the old succession war tactics, where the enemy sends in decoys, in order to drop on their main target while you are out chasing the decoy.
The clans do not use decoys, but go from landing point into trying to get the base without dropping forces that are not part of their main push. What is so difficult to understand here?
The number of worlds taken by the clans due to a lack of ships to do so, has nothing to do with the rest of the RCTs. It has to do with the fact they could NOT reach all of the worlds with forces in time. Even with leaving a world as soon as it was declared conquered, it would still leave too many that would not have fallen because of this.
The rest of the RCTs, along with general militia is an entirely different conversation.
Large scale wars do not have all forces in one location, when you have to guard multiple locations. So understanding that might give some insight on the actual way to deal with large scale battles.
I don't know how much experience the developers had with the military, but I will repeat what I said before. They screwed up trying to fill in the blanks, and not kept to their own rules.
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Requiem
08/26/20 09:23 AM
1.158.133.26
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Social generals are inept for military purposes.
Social Generals are those that do not understand their position and their role …. For a SLDF General, the responsibility to protect and to end the worst forms of violence and persecution …..;
However, for the Clans …. The enslavement of the freeborn and who are violence and persecution personified
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And this was about the illogical argument that you can guard an entire world from one location.
And as such making the majority of Clan Held worlds during the invasion impossible to garrison …..
And my argument was not in relation to guarding a world it was in relation to defending a worlf from the clans – or is that too subtle a distinction to understand?
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What is the reason for a FOB? Rally point? Even just having remote bases?
In this particular case it is a tethered goat waiting for the lion.
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This is a pure lie. Except for the thru armor crit, a single long tom round does NOT kill a dropship.
The 88 was intended for AA
When someone used it against a tank its lethality was realized
Same here…..
Consider the Kinetic force of a shell as it strikes a Dropship …… say good by to the dropship …..
Naval Weapons are WMDs ….. orbital bombardment
Any Dopship approaching a base and hit by a shell is not going to live very long ….
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wasting money doing it yourself wasn't necessary at the time.
When you are on a battlefield where everyone is using WMDs – you will be happy for the expense in building a fortress ….
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The IS was running on the old succession war tactics
This is where having an experienced general comes in …. With every contact with Clans information is gathered and disseminated to all generals of all units within the military …. With the Dragoons Conference all the uncertainties are removed – a clear defensive strategy can be formed.
Or do you believe only the Clan are allowed to evolve their tactics?
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The clans do not use decoys, but go from landing point into trying to get the base without dropping forces that are not part of their main push. What is so difficult to understand here?
And because they are so hidebound this act it will destroy them ….
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So understanding that might give some insight on the actual way to deal with large scale battles.
Depends on the General …. Not all fight the same, the best you will never see coming until it is too late……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/26/20 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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The reason I brought up the issue of not being able to protect a world from one location has nothing to do with the clans, but as stated in the statement, your idea that it can be done is incorrect. But again, this is something that was not kept on subject, but moved to something else.
Not talking clans or IS wars. I was saying the idea of remote bases has to be done to have force close to, or stationed at, places that need protection. The on going discussion of this is the statement you made saying all forces should be in one location. That is not possible and protect a single country, much less a world.
Even the clan naval weapons a single shot does not kill most dropships. A single shot from a long tom does not kill a dropship. Multiple or repeated hits will.
The economic decision of not making every factory underground is very common. The idea that the SL would prevent the necessity of it, as well as the very old common practice of not doing so, continues in the game even today. Saying it is worth the cost is forgetting or ignoring the fact that humans make things as cheaply as they can get away with, so they can make more money in profits.
If you disagree, then make a game yourself, and make sure it is done right. Not the garbage of taking an established game and trying to alter it to fit your view.
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Requiem
08/26/20 07:44 PM
1.158.133.26
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The reason I brought up the issue of not being able to protect a world from one location has nothing to do with the clans, but as stated in the statement, your idea that it can be done is incorrect.
“has nothing to do with the Clans” – The title of this forum is “Alt History / Thoughts re Clan Invasion of The IS”
“your idea that it can be done is incorrect”
– then show me an example of when the Clans Invaded a world, during the invasion, where they did not assign the primary target as the opposition IS forces?
- remember the entire CLAN bidding process when they arrive – with what forces do you defend this world …..? you as the defender do have the right to assign all your forces upon the entire world to the fight – you as the defender have the right to choose the battlefield – you as the defender do have the right to demand compensation when you win – and when you do win any clansman taken alive, and their Mech, can be taken as spoils of war …..
- The entire CLAN culture screams that I am allowed to fight utilizing all my forces in one spot against whatever they bid ….
And yes I can do this as it has been explained to me by either a Clan non-warrior / warrior POW or my Generals could have asked for a copy of their rules of war as they do not understand the question / cultural significance as to the question with what forces do you defend this world …. They would be honor bound to explain the rules! or through information provided by the Dragoons ……
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The on going discussion of this is the statement you made saying all forces should be in one location. That is not possible and protect a single country, much less a world.
During the succession wars I assigned my forces as a General of that era – and included a defensive forces for the command CIC as well as the ready reaction reserve forces …. However the time shave changed …. The Clans have forced a paradigm shift on the battlefield ….
The Clans have required a critical mass battlefield tactics …. The Clans own rules allow for it …. The Clans and the IS own history has allowed it …. The Clans own battlefield tactics demand it …. Accept it or history has left you behind ……
So again show me a battle during the clan invasion where they didn’t go straight for the enemy forces?
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A single shot from a long tom does not kill a dropship.
In atmosphere …. At an extremely close range ….. and utilizing a shell that has how much kinetic energy behind it? The damage inflicted – especially if you strike a ramp door will be catastrophic ……
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The economic decision of not making every factory underground is very common.
And proves the point that no one cared to learn from day 1 of the First succession war ….. or no one worked out how the first succession war would be fought when Amaris took the throne and worked out how Kerensky would respond …. Thus showing the entire IS House Lords at that time + their military did not understand what was going to happen ……
And this is beyond the bounds of reality …..
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humans make things as cheaply
Yes they do, however this is not the be all and end all of the decision – many other factors come in to it – suggest reading a few articles on the decision to offshore within Internal Business …..
Also you need to take into account the engineering capability of the SL and the houses during the SL era – the ability to manufacture underground facilities would not be that expensive …. So in reality putting it underground during a nuclear war would have been a no brainer when it comes to either receiving profits or looking for WMD Insurance for your business …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/27/20 02:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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Rasselhague had one instance that the clans purposefully missed the primary target, so as to get the prince of the FRR to flee from his position of safety. There are more, but don't remember where they are at.
And the title of alt history, like most of the threads you started has been use fictitious numbers that only you know of, to claim the developers didn't follow your vision, as they used their numbers. And when you add in such statements like you can defend a world from a single location, it opens up comments to them.
The statement of defending a world came before the clan invasion as well. But UNTIL your people learn of the Batchall, and hope the enemy issues it, then you have a limited scope of time. They will wait only so long. And you would fall into their trap of getting all your forces together, so they can concentrate all of theirs against you. And the first time you violate the challenge, you will be hunted down as dezgra, and never allowed the chance to challenge again. There is also a limit on what you can demand if you win.
The single shot that penetrates a hanger door is what they call the thru armor shot, meaning it was a fluke, not something that happens most of the time. Before they changed it, a single machine gun shot could kill a dropship or larger with the thru armor shot. They change this in a later version of battlespace I believe. It was thought as incredibly bs for it to be possible.
So how many factories does Russia or Germany have underground? How about any nation that builds great amounts of military vehicles? So all the countries in the world have not learned to place them all underground? Not at all. The civilians that own those factories make that call. And the idea that it won't happen to my property so I am not going to spend the money to do so runs rampant. Hell. How many of the factories today are even armored to withstand a normal missile strike? Europe has been one of the main focuses of wars throughout history. Asia as well, yet nothing major.
Offshore headquarters for businesses is to get around paying taxes. They save far more money each year by doing so. They move their manufacturing plants to countries that don't have high wages, or much in the way of EPA laws. They don't charge less when they do so. So costing them 20 million dollars makes then 100 million. And even more after the first year they moved, as now they don't have to pay the moving costs.
If you want even more on things like this, check out the professional sports, like U.S football. Several teams have demanded the city and state they were based it to make their stadiums to the team owners standards, and the team owner pays NOTHING for the build. They rent them. They have more power then the people living there.
So no. Businesses are not going to pay extra for the safety of their buildings as they can normally get others to do so. Then complain and sue the military for not doing the job. This sort of thinking will not change in the future. It hasn't changed from the past to now, so history shows it to be the way of things.
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Requiem
08/27/20 07:34 AM
1.158.133.26
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Rasselhague had one instance that the clans purposefully missed the primary target, so as to get the prince of the FRR
Rasalhague is an interesting situation
First can anyone explain how Clan wolf can garrison a world with 5 billion in population?
Second Ragnar Magnusson was made a bondsman in early 3052 whereas Rasalhague fell in July 3050.
Third there is no evidence whatsoever the Clan Wolf deviated from attacking the Rasalhague forces.
Fourth, the idea that Hanse, Melissa and Theodore would allow a capital world to fall is once more ludicrous considering the expertise of the these people when it comes to the execution of war –it is worse that ludicrous it is extremely bad writing - it is also demonstrates an extremely bad use of IS forces fighting the Clans – as why would any House lord allow the FRR to fight on their own and allow the Wolves such an easy run?
Also the 1st Freemen – on 23 June 3050 they were on Last Frontier fighting Clan Ghost Bear’s Ourse Keshik and the 1st Bear Gurads’ 310th Assault Trinary at Brighton Rock and Ascension – so how did their doppelgangers come to be on Rasalhague?
Can anyone explain why they would not assist the FRR as isn’t the entire strategy based upon containment?
Thus once more showing the completely inept writing when it comes to the Clan Invasion of the IS – rewrite required …..
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But UNTIL your people learn of the Batchall, and hope the enemy issues it, then you have a limited scope of time.
Code of Honor.
Marquis of Queensbury rules; The rules of dueling are quite clear prior to the duel to commence the defender is supplied with a copy of the rules ….. to not do so would cause dishonor to all concerned …. Suggest conducting research as to the dueling among military officers up to the early 1900’s.
For the Clans not to explain the rules to those they are about to engage shows that either TPTB do not understand or their Clans have no concept as to what honor means.
So again another example of bad writing …….
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So how many factories does Russia or Germany have underground?
WW2 or cold war?
WW2 – Russia didn’t have to due to the tyranny of distance from their factories to that of the front lines; Germany – considerable amount was placed underground – eg Mittelwerk.
Post WW2 and beyond – where do I start? Vietnam, Iran, both North and south Korea, China, America, all of Europe (eg Klara Shelter) and on and on
Within the IS building underground is not as difficult as it is today – it would be relatively inexpensive to complete considering their engineering ….
This is one of the biggest problems when it comes to the game – the year is 3050 – how more advanced would their civil engineering be than that on now …. Comparisons of the two eras must be considered from the basis of the era in which you are representing …..
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yet nothing major
Consider most of the hot spots around the world as well as Russia and China.
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SL bunkers were done, which took how long?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Castle_Brian
Within thirty years over a hundred more were built – and this is just the work of the TH
So really how many could the House lords have constructed if they had the plans to them as the RWR did?
So once more – extremely bad writing as wouldn’t the Houses have established their own version of a Castle Brian as when it comes to innovation / imitation when it comes to copying technology?
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Offshore headquarters for businesses is to get around paying taxes.
Again read a book on the subject … as all countries have taxes …. Geography and Geopolitical alliances etc and strategic alliances must be taken into account as well as completive advantages financial flows and changing technologcal relocation and diffusion based upon changing market economics – consider trade and the factors that impact logistics from raw materials to finished goods and then to the market shelf / internet website (warehouse) and postal service ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/27/20 11:21 AM
66.74.60.165
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Sorry, it wasn't the prince, but the one of the main high commanders. I don't remember the name right now.
There is a third explanation of why the clans didn't explain the batchall to the IS. The individual leaders were scared of the IS learning the ways of the batchall, and using it against them, or they were personally against even giving the honor to the IS, as most considered them beneath the dark caste. They were trueborns attacking freeborns.
With the advent of the ICBM and cruise missiles, your own logic says they should have moved all their factories underground. Even the use of the first nuke, it should have shown all countries what could happen in the future. The power of money rules in every era. People will build things as cheap as they can to make more money. With the countries, only a few things are build underground. I do not see a tank manufacturing plant being underground, even now. Some test sites would, but in the end, not enough to sustain a war. And total warfare would have a majority of those factories, if not all of them, above ground. Now I am considering above ground to be locations that can be bombed without the need for bunker buster missiles and such. So a factory with a single level below ground would be considered above ground.
The fact that having the HQ off in international waters, as well as finding the country with the best tax rates, and using them to avoid paying higher taxes in other nations is why it is done. And even then, the companies hold off on paying their taxes as their properties won't be seized, but the lawsuits to get the companies to pay up happens. Wait long enough, but not to the point where they do get their properties seized, they negotiate a much lower amount to have to pay. They do get things like 100 million bill dropped dramatically. Even as low as 10 million. There are loop holes in the tax code for the U.S. that allows this.
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Requiem
08/28/20 08:03 AM
1.158.133.26
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The individual leaders were scared of the IS learning the ways of the batchall, and using it against them, or they were personally against even giving the honor to the IS, as most considered them beneath the dark caste.
Then why bother initiating the battle challenge at all? eg….. "What forces dare defend this world from the steel talons of the Jade Falcon?"
No, this is clearly a complete misunderstanding as to how the rules pertaining to duels are honored between two parties …. Where are the seconds and who will act as the adjudicator ….. and once more demonstrates a poor writing / or a lack of understanding as to the invasion ….
How can you try to prove your moral superiority if you cannot communicate the basis for that superiority?
Sorry to say but the entire Clan Invasion is lacking in so many areas that it is quite impossible to believe in its reality ….. re-write please ….
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With the advent of the ICBM and cruise missiles, your own logic says they should have moved all their factories underground.
They have ….. Iran, North Korea and many others …..
As for the rest ….they still have issues with regards to history, psychology and engineering ….
History …. The original plant was built during WW2 so why shift …. Even though there is a real issue ….
Psychology …… I live in (Name of country here) our military will protect the factory …. Blinkered optimism of the rose colored glasses !
Engineering …. Tunnel boring machine (TBM) still not fully economically viable for large scale operations.
However in the age of Star League, an age of incredible engineering achievements, this should have been relatively simple and economical.
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The fact that having the HQ off in international waters, as well as finding the country with the best tax rates, and using them to avoid paying higher taxes in other nations is why it is done.
Again do some research …. Suggest google – “What are the driving forces behind globalization?”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/28/20 11:26 AM
66.74.60.165
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Why issue the batchall at all? Not thinking things thru before responding? The batchall is part of tradition, which would be honored if the commanders tried it with the other clans. Though the raid on the Ghost Bears after the war showed that practice was starting to wane. To show you are superior, you do not have to state that you are, as that is just an ego boost. The main way they showed they were superior was attacking with less forces then the defender had, normally around half the numbers. But honestly, this isn't really showing superiority. Their tech was far enough ahead of the IS, even trainees could have taking on even numbers and won. They should have used old mechs with the old tech, and tried the half numbers thing. If you win, then you show superiority. Not this fire from a range you know the enemy can't match, and can't close the distance to return fire.
Some of the factories for the named countries are underground. They still have a majority of their factories above ground. The main ones are research facilities that are below ground. It is done more to keep secret what they are doing, then protecting the factories from a strike.
The military is supposed to stop the attacks to begin with. We all know that doesn't hold true, especially when the enemy strikes without any notice. But the military will protect certain things before the normal civilians in areas.
And no matter what you want to think, the cost of making the factories underground is an expense the civilian CEOs and owners are not going to spring for. As security for civilian set ups vary, most of them become so obsolete or useless that someone can seize the factory and force the owner to damage or destroy some of it in order to get it back. Underground is that much more difficult to get back.
The boring machines are good for somethings, but they tend to be long tunnels, that don't turn sharply. Multiple runs trying to stay next to each other is possible, but you still have the issues of the holes having to be done in order to do so.
More efficient then digging? Very likely.
But with doing the strip mining style of digging to make the underground factory is basically opening up the top and trying to put a bandage on it.
Globalization is there so big companies can run out the competition, and make a monopoly around the world. It allows them to force the weaker economic countries into given them good terms to use them as a business base. Then avoid paying the more economically sound countries what they demand. It also allows companies to make the items in areas that don't have strict, or can't enforce environmental laws. Cheap labor is yet another thing they want.
The concept of making the world one large happy consumer place existed for a very short period of time, but greed has over run it as it has with most everything else.
This is not every company, but a majority of them. 51% or more.
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Requiem
08/28/20 07:25 PM
1.158.133.26
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Not thinking things thru before responding?
Comprehension of the entirety of the conversation demonstrates the facetiously of the situation – eg. The Jade Falcon Clan arrive at an IS world and say "What forces dare defend this world from the steel talons of the Jade Falcon?", and the IS commander is looking at the Jade Falcon perplexed as she/he has no idea as to what is going on because they refuse to explain their cultural idioms.
So again, why issue the battle challenge if the receiver does not understand the question and its import? – as this can only be achieved when both the communicator and the receiver understand the import of the question been asked, and this can only be done with the IS been provided with an education as to the Clans Traditions.
So again where is a copy of the Marquis of Queensbury rules as to Clan fighting traditions for the IS to understand what is expected of them?
Ever played a game where you do not know the rules and no one will explain the rules? …. Pointless!
Same here! This is not superiority it is just stupidity!
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Some of the factories for the named countries are underground. They still have a majority of their factories above ground.
Again …. It will take time to place the majority of their military industrial complex underground, but it is inevitable …..
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the cost of making the factories underground is an expense the civilian CEOs and owners are not going to spring for.
Again …. Currently it is not only cost effective and the technology is not there yet …. However by 3050 the technology WILL be there and the cost effectiveness WILL be there …..
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But with doing the strip mining style of digging to make the underground factory is basically opening up the top and trying to put a bandage on it.
Research again …. Google “diagram of underground mining block caving method” – you just need to ensure the collapse does not include a ground collapse – there are also other current mining methods.
So who knows what mining methods will be available in 1,000 years time.
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Globalization is there so big companies can run out the competition, and make a monopoly around the world.
Research again …. Look at Born Global activities by utilizing the net to sell products – allows a small company the reach of the larger companies ……
And again this is only looking at the negatives …. Consider the positives – they are providing work and incomes and education – if they were not there what other jobs are available that are not immoral or illegal? Globalization has increased the standard of living for the people within weaker economic countries ….
And this should have been considered within the IS realm – and yet never was which demonstrates a complete lack of understanding as to economics within the game – why tax a realm to death when they do not have the industry / society to support an increase to taxation …..Star League Richard Cameron?
Again showing that he had no real understanding as to economics and its effects on a macro / micro level or International Business as it comes to improving an individuals’ life within an impoverished Periphery – So Kerensky as regent what education system did you provide the future First Lord? As it appears he was completely unprepared for the job …. Which is once more YOUR fault Aleksandr Kerensky ….. proving once more that he was a completely inept Regent and SLDF CIC.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/28/20 09:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Did you read the books? Again, the question was asked that was already answered in the books, and yet some comprehensive reading wasn't necessary. Might be all those non existing words in between the lines messing up the comprehension.
The books tell you that the clan commanders that did issue the batchall, and were not about to explain the whole thing, as it was the IS that should know what it was about. If they didn't, well that just shows the ignorant barbarians. The fact that the clans were so arrogant for the most part, they expect everyone worth a second though to know their entire history.
And with the better tech, it will be even cheaper to just leave the factories on the surface. The only way civilian companies will have factories underground is when the government builds it, or they are doing things that they don't want the public to know. And since it is not something that most governments can do without having major uprisings, they are NOT going to build factories for civilian entities.
I guess you need to go back to school and learn how the world is really working. Internet companies are NOT making the standard of living go up in poorer nations. They are hiring workers, but they are paying garbage wages. The only ones making money is the government, and the factory owners. It is actually destroying jobs for everything to be done on line, as there isn't any people working in the stores to showcase and sell those items. That removes more people out of the work forces, and makes the companies that much more money. They don't need to stock stores, as they can actually get away with ordering items when the customer puts in their order. 2 to 4 weeks delivery? More like make and ship. If they had the item on hand, then it ships as soon as your payment clears. The brick and mortor businesses are going under as they are paying for the cashiers, stockers, cleaners and such. Having everything shipped from one location makes needing a large labor force unnecessary.
Yes. The internet sales helps some companies get recognition and can make it. Most get their new ideas copied and locked out of the sales by the larger companies. Sometimes, they are bought out. So helping the standard of living for a nation? Not really. Just a few.
Tax a nation to death, so the people there will work for almost nothing, and sell everything they can make for cheap. They are not going to be telling you no, when you bring in a factory that pumps out pollution like it was running water.
Years back, it wasn't like this.
Again, blaming someone that was not really in charge of providing things for others. And then that is also suggesting that a spoiled child could never get away with not working to learn anything, as they don't need to. My word is law attitude as they think a wave of their hand can change how things are done without caring anything about what it actually entails. And this is not even suggesting that a 'friend' might be placing the bad ideas into the spoiled childs head, while the person that was told to watch out for them, was also told they had other things to do.
But it is keeping with the concept of missing the actual target, just to make someone else the villain.
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Requiem
08/29/20 06:32 AM
1.158.133.26
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The books tell you that the clan commanders that did issue the batchall, and were not about to explain the whole thing, as it was the IS that should know what it was about. If they didn't, well that just shows the ignorant barbarians.
Once more demonstrating how badly written the story truly is ….
The Clans are nothing more than the ignorant enforcing by war ignorance upon others … how many libraries and books did they burn in their invasion?
As for the Clans being arrogant this goes far beyond this ….. hubris, leading to nemesis!
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And with the better tech, it will be even cheaper to just leave the factories on the surface.
A CEO has s fiduciary to the company and to their shareholders – continual production with a plant underground – continual share dividends or dissolution of the company and not even an insurance check – as an act of WMDs are usually not covered.
The factory goes underground – the cost of putting it there negligible in 3050 – the protection by having it there priceless …..
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I guess you need to go back to school and learn how the world is really working. Internet companies are NOT making the standard of living go up in poorer nations.
Consider re-reading
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Kerensky
Suggest re-reading once more with regards to the duty of a Regent as well as the Duty of a Lord of a realm and the level of education that SHOULD go into this person to make them ready to rule.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/29/20 12:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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I would think the clan warriors did not intentionally destroy anything about history. They would prefer to fight in the open, away from cities and such. The IS did what they were used to, and would give them some sort of equalizer. They defended in the cities. Not all, but enough.
Remember. Anything about the SL was sacred to them. So anything like books written in the SL era, would be a special find.
The CEO being responsible for the companies welfare is how things are supposed to be. Using today as a model, that isn't true for a chunk of them. They are there to collect money, and are doing what they want, not what is needed. With the Golden Parachute contracts, someone making 10 million dollars a year, but would make 200 million if the company goes under, what do you think they are going to do? Work for the company 20 years, or destroy it as fast as possible. CEO's are not tied to the financial state of the companies they work for, unless they own the company.
With those numbers, and the non disclosure of how the employee worked, they can go to another company and repeat the same thing.
Now as for what you can see, companies that don't bring in as much money as they need to in order to keep functioning, start releasing workers as well as downgrade the quality of their product. The big costs, such as the executive boards pay, is not touched. They get their bonuses, even if the company is going under financially. This creates the downward spiral that finally ends in bankruptcy.
This is not the case for all, but enough are, which supports the idea that CEOs don't care about the company making money, so much as THEY make the big bucks.
Reread what? The propaganda put out to make it look like the standard of living is going up in the poorer countries? The cost of living everywhere is going up. Most wages are not keeping up with it, and unemployment makes that even more prevalent. Only a few enjoy the rewards of the global economy. And they make enough, that when averaged with the rest of their country, makes it look like they are making more overall. You love math. Run the numbers.
Duty and actually being able to do so are not one and the same. The regent has people in the system that are supposed to do the job of making sure things are done, while they deal with other things. Ministries, departments, committees, job postings and such are all part of that chain of command. For Kerensky to just go to Terra and sit on Richard is not going to happen. The SL was pushing to bring the periphery to heel. That was more important to someone in the military, then it was to make sure the people that have been in the position to do other jobs did them right. This also does not cover the child threatening the career employs with their job, as they KNOW they are the most powerful person in the universe.
Amaris having Richard's ear, could very well have given him this idea, and made it stick. Even without that, others may have been trying to manipulate Richard for their own ends. So the reports would go out that everything is normal with his education.
Ignorant of a person being attended to by those that were qualified for the position before the father died is very possible, and kind of expected. A newly crowned king is not going to go into the kingdom to find out why food production, or mining is down. They send others, as they have more important things to do. They decide what to do on the reports they get.
But history doesn't matter, when it doesn't support, or worse, counters the complaints of the game. This is why the whole idea of showing an alt is fictitious. Full attacks on everything the game does or stand for, isn't anything but trying to rip on the developers.
A different approach is needed if you want to change this fact.
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Requiem
08/29/20 07:32 PM
1.158.133.26
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I would think the clan warriors did not intentionally destroy anything about history.
Research – yes they did destroy history in the minds of the freeborn and those Trueborn to a history that they wanted - and the access to the real historical documents became restricted.
So Question: How many historical topics within the Clans became restricted information ….?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans
The Arts
“Few books have been written since the Clans formed and those that were are heavily censored to ensure they uphold Clan ideals; while pre-Exodus books do exist, their access is tightly controlled and limited to a privileged few.”
and how many topics have become forged or falsified – Clan Worlverine.
Fact is the Clans cannot accept Historical truth – Aleksandr Kerensky was incompetent, Nicholas utilizing demagogy established an Amaris society so that he could get back at dad ….and the Clans are now closer to being an Amaris’ force than that of the SLDF ……
And as for the invasion how many universities did they burn to the ground just like the one on Somerset?
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Anything about the SL was sacred to them. So anything like books written in the SL era, would be a special find.
And as noted above these sacred finds were then put on the restricted list and limited to the privileged few!
So point is the Clans are nothing more than book burning thugs who have no idea as to true historical facts.
So why didn’t the Dragoons and Natasha realize the vast discrepancy between what they were taught back on the Clan home worlds and the everyday books of the IS?
And we now how another huge black hole as to the true historical facts ….. all the Dragoons should have realized that what they were taught was WRONG at one time or another …. They were lied to as to their historical truth …. So what happens when you realize your history is not your history and you have been lied to throughout your entire life?
This is what is happening with the Dragoons – and this is what should have happed with all the freeborn within the Clans – psyops would have ensured they would have been supplied the truth – the sharks merchants would have taken the truth home with them and disseminated the truth …..
So again we have very bad writing due to a very poor understanding as to the reality of what was created and the consequences of those actions …..
So again a re-write is required for the modern person wanting to play the game….. the table top brand is losing against its competitors and its target market clients are shrinking ….
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The CEO being responsible for the companies welfare is how things are supposed to be.
It is actually how it is … if they do not look after the share-holders they can be voted out! So how many large corps are owned by just one person?
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Reread what?
How about starting with scholarly articles on the facts!
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Duty and actually being able to do so are not one and the same.
Can I laugh now?
As regent it is his job to rule in his absence and to get Richard ready for the job – as neither happened it just goes to show how incompetent Kerensky really was ….
All I can say is that I am glad I had Kerensky court-martialed and kicked out in my time line …..gross incompetence ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/29/20 09:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans did not burn books. The bs called the cartoon did not follow canon story lines. It was accepted that parts, and only SMALL parts of it was acceptable to be considered canon. The university was some bs put into the cartoon to try and make it longer then what it would have been without the lies in it.
The suppression of history in the clan home worlds is not the same as burning the books. It does have dark tones to it, but the information is still available. But this doesn't play well with your complaint so has to be ignored.
The story has little to do with the actual playing of the game. Something that really seems to allude you. The game is based on stompy mechs fighting stompy mechs. The story only gives you some context to what is going on. I agree it has issues that comes from them not fact checking their own work, but then others think that stories written by others, like the cartoon, is exactly what the story line is. The novels have gone against facts as well.
You really don't understand how companies work, I see. The CEO has their bonus pay if they are removed from their position. They get their golden parachute no matter how they leave. So embezzling all they can seems to be becoming standard in a lot of areas. Workers pensions being one of the first things to be raided, then removing the numbers of workers. If it was about the bottom line, the executive board should be the first one to have pay cuts. That does not happen. They tend to get bonuses while others are laid off.
I have yet to see scholarly articles that are facts. So far, all the ones about foreign nations having their standard of living raised, as been because the rich's increase in fortune's are averaged with the rest, raising the money. It is NOT because the normal workers are getting paid more. The cost of living is rising faster then their paychecks, as most companies will hire someone else once someone complains.
Your concepts of what happened are based on information that isn't there. First off, the idea that someone fighting a war light years from where someone becomes the new ruler, can just drop everything to head back. Second, the whole ordeal would follow standard protocols, where those working with the first lord would continue to do the same job they did when the father was alive. This does not all change when the parent dies. So the only thing that really changes is the title bestowed on the leader fighting in the periphery. If Kerensky really did have the power to do what you claim, he would have had the houses start mobilizing to help take down the periphery. The ENTIRE RWR would be banned from the TH. A full warrant for the arrest of the Amaris line would have happened before Amaris even got to Terra. Just like happens in real wars. So Kerensky did NOT have the powers you suggest he does. The regency was a farce to make it look like the house lords were not taking over. It finally came to an end when they disband the SL. Simple logic following facts.
The implication that is here is that Kerensky was a complete bumbling fool that could not even put his pants on right. He was not trained to run certain things, and let the experts do their job. He did NOT order them to do anything that was against protocols. So if there is an issue, it was with the protocols to begin with, then the people that were carrying it out. The intel and judicial departments would come next. But doing what you are, and just jumping to the highest person in the chain, then the first lord position was flawed beyond repair to begin with. But this means you can't blame the one person you want to, as it doesn't apply.
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Requiem
08/30/20 07:39 AM
1.158.133.26
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The clans did not burn books.
And Universities do not have Libraries? ……
CANON FACT ….. Somerset’s Academy WAS destroyed by the Jade Falcons. The point that it was part of the 1st Somerset Strikes is story IS IMMATERIAL – this was adopted as Canon making it a factual.
How many other peoples have the Clans killed off for one reason or another throughout their history?
How far have they gone to repress freeborn rights whereas if they were true SLDF they would be championing the human rights?
The Clans represent the worst in human nature and should be treated as such! There is NOTHING noble in them, there is NOTHING to admire ….. time to face facts about the Clans – who they are – and what they represent!
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The suppression of history in the clan home worlds is not the same as burning the books.
Really? …. The suppression of thought and knowledge is not dependent in the media it relates to! …. Suppression of thought and knowledge in any form is still a suppression of thought and knowledge ….
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but the information is still available.
To the select few military elite ….. which really does not help the freeborn anything …….
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The story only gives you some context to what is going on.
Except for the fact the story is what drives sales, market penetration, and target market analysis …..
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You really don't understand how companies work, I see. The CEO has their bonus pay if they are removed from their position. They get their golden parachute no matter how they leave.
Sorry but no, this is not the case
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Workers pensions being one of the first things to be raided
Only in those countries that do not have security in place for penions .....
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If it was about the bottom line, the executive board should be the first one to have pay cuts.
Google it
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I have yet to see scholarly articles that are facts.
After 1 min google ….
ECIPE – The Economic Benefits of Globalization for business and Consumers, 2018, Fredrik Erixon – RE WTO and Globalization
As such if Inner Sphere had transferred their business activities into the Periphery it would have assisted not only the business but also the people of the Periphery,
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the idea that someone fighting a war light years from where someone becomes the new ruler, can just drop everything to head back.
Then why have Jump-ships?
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the whole ordeal would follow standard protocols, where those working with the first lord would continue to do the same job they did when the father was alive.
Please explain ….?
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If Kerensky really did have the power to do what you claim, he would have had the houses start mobilizing to help take down the periphery.
First - what powers did Kerensky Have? Regent – as such he has the same powers as that of the First Lord …. Bur as he never made it that far in the Alt version the point is mute as once his political support is removed his power is removes and those that hate him (ie all the Chiefs of staff and all the Army Commanders) get rid of him ….
And as such sanity returns to the IS ….
Second – Reunification War (2577-2597) included who?
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The ENTIRE RWR would be banned from the TH. A full warrant for the arrest of the Amaris line would have happened before Amaris even got to Terra.
First, Stefan Amaris was written out of history ….. as his presence is no longer required …. Second, mine is way more realistic ….
Faction;
Attacker – Draconis Combine, Rim Worlds Republic, Outworlds Alliance, Tortuga Alliance, Taurian Concordat and Magistracy of Canopus – RWR and DC have been working together for a very long time manufacturing shadow army for both realms, thus by the time of the war their military is just above that of the defenders. (in all respects) + all of their mechs etc. have access to clocking systems ….
Defender – Star League, Lyran Commonwealth and Federated Suns;
Declaring them-selves neutral – Capellan Confederation and Free Worlds League.
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He was not trained to run certain things
Highest rank in the field is as a Captain.
Then assigned to the CIC staff – making it to the position of her Aide – which if I remember correctly is a Lieutenant Colonel
Never commanded a Battalion, Regiment, Corp or Army Group, never involved in any joint exercises with Army / Navy …. Never was part of the Chiefs of staff …. etc etc,
Thus in all reality he is grossly inept for the position of CIC.
And why was he given the position – he like his successor believed in the nightmares of the mad first lord at the time …. who was also the person who gave him the job …. At the recommendation of the then CIC …. Can anyone say political appointee and nepotism!
And all of this is Canon Fact!
So no he was definitely the correct person for the job! (SARCASM)
This goes way beyond protocol by promoting him to the position of CIC he has just made some serious enemies and then by not doing anything during the Federated Suns and Capellan Confederation war proves that he is completely inept for the job…..
And thus at the first chance he loses political support he will be removed ….
And hopefully a new system is put in place and sanity is returned to the IS …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/30/20 07:47 AM)
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ghostrider
08/30/20 12:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Funny. There is a lot of things that were written about Battletech over the years, and some of it was canonized. Most of it was said to be just someone's vision of it. The original video game of Battletech for instance. I have not heard anything in canon that says that story line happened. Then the entire history of the novels as well as the cartoon having mechs explode when the engine is destroyed. Radiation from cracked engine shielding. There is a whole list of other things.
The clans are not the worse of humanity in history. They did not have blood sports where they released freeborn on their home worlds, then hunt them down for sport. They did not go out of their way to see how long it takes to starve people. There are more things, but not going to get into it more.
And the idea of destroying information by burning books, and that includes deleting the data from electronic storage, is not the same as limiting it from the masses. Not saying limiting it is a good thing, but it is not the same thing.
Also, the data is available to the scientists which would distribute it to those they felt were worthy of it. Oh wait. You mean the non warriors were doing the same thing?
So you are saying the success of say warhammer is because of the stories and not the actual game? The entire D&D history is not based on the written stories, but from GMs making their own creations. The stories do help keep the public aware of it, as some have read the books but never played the game. But those came after the game was moving along. Battletech needs a full rewrite of the rules in order to keep consistency in the time line.
And I have never really heard of a storyline behind monopoly or checkers.
Your economics major has lied to you if you think the CEOs don't have their contracts set up so they make money no matter what the company does. Who do you think authorizes the executive board to raid pension funds, tell the sales people to lie their butts off, like Enron did? Might need to look beyond the town you are in and view the entire world. Again, this is not all of them, but it is growing among them. This will not change as long as the executive board gets away with the golden parachute concepts.
The security being in place does not prevent such things from happening anymore. Most of those laws have been destroyed by lawsuits and people getting away with it. And the consequences? They get slapped on the wrist or serve a few months in a clubhouse jail. They hid the money away, and no one can get their money back. Off shore HQ's are great for that. And having the HQ in other countries allows them to avoid prosecution as their laws are different. Part of the complicated loop holes written in for the rich to get away with it.
You think that spending millions in the periphery in order to use cheap labor while having no real ability to secure those locations would be smart? The cost of shipping would cause more then a few problems, though in the SL era, at least the ships were not much of an issue. And you think that more then a few people would be better off with such a move? Again. Figure the math with the masses having little to nothing, while a small few have the funds that exceeds the masses though they are like 2% of the population. Sound fimiliar?
Why have jumpships? Really? It isn't about the transportation itself, but the time and the need to remain where you are at that is the problem. But to be honest, if there were no jumpships, then the whole issue would be void. Humanity would still be stuck on Terra.
Please explain that a child will continue to be tutored to educate him on things they need to know if their parents die? That the regent should not have to replace the entire process, as it was already vetted before they were thrust into that spot. That your history shows this to be true beyond your wants or desires?
First - what powers did Kerensky Have? Regent – as such he has the same powers as that of the First Lord …. Bur as he never made it that far in the Alt version the point is mute as once his political support is removed his power is removes and those that hate him (ie all the Chiefs of staff and all the Army Commanders) get rid of him …
Yet another example of trying to say canon is wrong because your alt says so. You argue he was wrong, yet change the subject when proven the opinion is based on false facts. And yet you can't see this.
Kerensky had the powers of the First Lord, yet did nothing to get the houses involved in taking out the periphery? This would have dealt a blow to their build up of forces, which would have meant the edict to limit them would not have been needed.
Realistic? Only in your mind does this work. Realistic would have been the first lord playing off all of the houses against each other, in order for them to have to rely on the TH portion to keep them safe. Just like the feudal societies the SL is based on. It is proven the SL could NOT secure the entire IS thru force, so they had to rely on vassals to keep the revolts down. Funny how you quote from history, but then forget it when it doesn't suit or support your desires.
That is very funny. The person that came from a military back ground is not qualified to be the CIC, yet they answer to someone that normally has NO back ground. And the fact that they have a huge staff to deal with things they weren't trained for. It is possible that he was not a tactical or strategic thinker. But to say he wasn't qualified leaves out the entire First Lord position entirely.
But I guess comprehension has failed entirely, as for the story to move on to the current age, the SL had to fall. The fact that the back ground story has flaws in it doesn't matter much. The SL had to fall, and they had to make it sound like the hero rode in to save the day, only to have a pyrric victory, and leaves as the evil dukes start to feed on the carcass of the great nation. Sounds like the standard story line to me.
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Wick
08/30/20 03:31 PM
173.247.25.195
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Faction;
Attacker – Draconis Combine, Rim Worlds Republic, Outworlds Alliance, Tortuga Alliance, Taurian Concordat and Magistracy of Canopus – RWR and DC have been working together for a very long time manufacturing shadow army for both realms, thus by the time of the war their military is just above that of the defenders. (in all respects) + all of their mechs etc. have access to clocking systems ….
Defender – Star League, Lyran Commonwealth and Federated Suns;
The canon numbers provided for military sizes around the 2765 and 2785 epochs indicate this is not true.
Assuming 2780 (and only counting mech forces and no mercs):
DCMS stands about 129 regiments, RWR/Amaris Empire is about 90 regiments remaining of the shadow army, with Outworlds, Concordat, and Magistracy all about 12-15 regiments, and the Tortugans maybe offering 1 or 2. That totals about 265 regiments by my reckoning.
SLDF alone is approximately 480 regiments of mechs, based on what was left in 2785 at time of Exodus. The Lyrans would add about 96 regiments and the FedSuns about 125. For a total of right around 700.
The attackers aren't just above the defenders, but outnumbered close to 3:1. I suppose you could subtract SLDF units from the Combine or Periphery as defectors, but not enough of them to flip the scale. Maybe closer to 2:1. Its a winnable fight given morale and exhaustion problems within the remaining remnant of the SLDF, but not a rollover. It would certainly help if the approximately 106 regiments of the FWLM and 102 of the CCAF could be counted among the attackers. If many SLDF divisions from these realms also defected it might get close to 550 mech regiments on each side.
Even in 2765 (just before New Vandenburg riots) its a mismatch because of the SLDF's gigantic size that still dwarfs the shadow army.
DCMS about 115 regiments, RWR about 30 regiments (hiding their numbers in the shadow armies of the other periphery realms), Outworlds at 100 regiments, Concordat at 115, Magistracy at 108, and again the Tortugans making up only a few. Total of about 470 regiments. If the RWR mobilized all their shadow army and emptied Hegemony Brian Caches, they could call upon an additional 350-400 regiments to bring the total in the 800-850 range
SLDF at around 1770 regiments of mechs, or about twice the attackers maximum combined strength. LCAF at 90, and AFFS at 111 regiments but these pale in comparison.
The SLDF was truly monstrous before the New Vandenburg riots, the Rim Worlds campaign, then the Terra campaign sapped most of its strength. Still, at the end its military was about as large as the rest of the Inner Sphere combined. Amaris knew that he basically had to throw the militaries of the other Periphery realms under the bus to have a reasonable chance of defending against the SLDF. They were offered hundreds of regiments (and nuclear weapons) to weaken the SLDF, and that's exactly what happened. Their kill-death ratio was an admirable 2:1 and their militaries were reduced by about 90% in 2765 and 2766, but it drained about a third of the SLDF: enough for Amaris to gain the upper hand for a time.
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Requiem
08/30/20 03:53 PM
1.158.133.26
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The story is what keeps the game going ….. without a good story the game would have been long dead by now ….
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Radiation from cracked engine shielding
Fuel is water is converted into Hydrogen Plasma which is converted into helium to create energy and the radiation is?
Aneutronic fusion?
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They did not have blood sports where they released freeborn on their home worlds, then hunt them down for sport.
Book – The Clans Warriors of Kerensky No. 1709 Pg. 12 – Please explain ….
- the use of “The Coursing” and “Thamzing”
Coursing – the sport of hunting game animals (in this case humans) with greyhounds (in this case larger hunting animals) using sight rather than scent ….
Ie. that is letting the people run and then setting the animals on them to chase them down and rip them to pieces …..
Thamzing – public humiliation – where the accuses was forces to admit to various crimes before a crowd of people who would verbally and physically abuse the victim until they confessed ….
Nicholas’ use of torture and degradation during the post liberation months ……
Book 1st Somerset Strikers Pg. 43 note this was written August 13, 3050 “…. What I have seen of the Clans … proves that their entire society is inimical to all the values and traditions that we hold dear. They have no concept of freedom, individuality, or self-determination. They classify people …..with the most stratified and class-bound societies. The Clans divide people into five castes: warrior, scientist, merchant, technician, and labourer. Each caste is ranked according to its value to society, as the Clans understand value, placing the warrior caste at the top of the ladder and descending in order to the labourer caste. Though this system appears to have the virtue of assigning everyone a definite niche in life, in practice it devalues everyone outside the warrior caste. ….. the value of each caste is measured solely by the worth of its function to the warriors. The labourers, who attend to the day-to-day running of society, are regarded as little better than livestock …. The Jade Falcons believe that anyone born or placed into a given caste is by nature suited only to that caste and cannot possibly function anywhere else. ….. Such rigid thinking, with no concessions to individual wants and needs make a mockery of the ideal of freedom held up by the ancient Star League ….”
In 2844, motivated by jealousy, the Mongoose warriors struck at Clan Star Adder and ruthlessly massacred the Adder colonists on Marshall.
Londerholm Revolt - This woeful incident was a desperate reaction to many years of Clan Smoke Jaguar's brutal and uncaring oppression of their own lower castes. Thousands of Smoke Jaguar citizens of the laborer and merchant castes were killed by their warriors during this major rebellion.
Clan Ghost Bear – assembled all the children who’s dna included Clan Wolverine dna – they told them the facts and every child then took out their sidearm and killed themselves all because they had the wrong dna …..
Also please do explain the concept of freeborn ….. “ work-credit for food, accommodation, and other amenities” and “The use of so-called "dirty tricks" in order to get ahead is thus more prevalent among the civilians”
Law and order – “Rather than solve crimes, Clan police's primary duty is discouraging them through brutal, authoritative measures; physical beatings ….” Punishment …. “through physical punishment such as flogging.”
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……is not the same as limiting it from the masses.
Sorry but it is the same. The permanent removal of knowledge from people. Semantics don’t work here.
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So you are saying the success of say warhammer is because of the stories and not the actual game?
Then why have multiple massive novels put out each week – why put out audio books – why create a whole subset for children – and why create a new subset devoted to crime novels …
Also why is the Horus Heresy set so vast? Also why are many of the new series also so vast?
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D&D
How many hundreds of novels exist for Dragonlance – forgotten Realms etc. and how many source books have been created due to the novels themselves?
The novels are the bedrock upon which the game is built.
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Your economics major has lied to you if you think the CEOs don't have their contracts set up so they make money no matter what the company does.
Try again each country has their own way of doing things ….In more progressive countries legislation is enacted by parliament prevents it ….. remuneration is determined by resolution of the shareholders …. And listed companies must present a remuneration report to shareholders at every AGM …..and should explain the relationship between company performance and remuneration ….
Sooner or later international standards will demand it …..
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You think that spending millions in the periphery in order to use cheap labor while having no real ability to secure those locations would be smart?
International Business Theory would say … Yay to the proposition during the Star League era.
However by 3025 they no longer have a police force so it will be a little difficult … unless you have your own private army to act as a security force …..
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It isn't about the transportation itself, but the time and the need to remain where you are at that is the problem.
Two years – Exodus
Six months for a clan resupply fleet to arrive in the Inner Sphere from Clan Space.
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Please explain that a child will continue to be tutored to educate him on things they need to know if their parents die?
Because it is the law in every civilized country ….. and Because it is the way things have been done since year dot for next ruling monarch’s children …..
Consider every Regent throughout history …… the only time they were not educated is when they ended in the tower and were subsequently murdered …..
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Yet another example of trying to say canon is wrong because your alt says so.
And Canon is oh so right on every topic ……
This forum is dedicated to the Alt version and my explanation as to why ….. to explain how many of the black holes can be fixed ….
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Realistic would have been the first lord playing off all of the houses against each other, in order for them to have to rely on the TH portion to keep them safe.
Problem is that the First Lord would have to be smarter than the House Lords – and that has yet to occur for a very long time ….
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Realistic would have been the first lord playing off all of the houses against each other, in order for them to have to rely on the TH portion to keep them safe.
Funny thing feudal society is not the only system that can work in this system – democracy can also work in this system just as well ….
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The person that came from a military back ground is not qualified to be the CIC, yet they answer to someone that normally has NO back ground.
And yet every feudal society ruler includes a military education …. How else do so many rulers die on the battlefield …..
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The person that came from a military back ground is not qualified to be the CIC.
How can you have a person in charge of the joint chief of staff – when he never served a day as a junior member – he never served as a CO of an Army / A Corp / a Regiment etc.- he does not have the background or the understanding necessary to do the job …..
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The SL had to fall, and they had to make it sound like the hero rode in to save the day.
And why hot have Richard Cameron as the hero? Kicked out of his realm then fighting to win it back ….. a classic North / South War ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/30/20 07:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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Read the paragraph the radiation leak from a reactor comes with. It is something the writers put in that is completely opposite of the rules. That whole list is some examples of them doing so.
The cartoon has little validity here. Most of it was tossed out and never even thought of being put in canon. Most of the magazine Battle Technology is not canon, and it is far closer to what was going on then the cartoon.
All of the examples of the clans use of violence is nothing that hasn't happened in the past. The only difference it they are all put into one entity, not spread out among a couple hundred.
Is it good or right? Not really.
Is it something to get the game moving along? Yes.
And yet, your alt has the same things going on, as you follow canon for the most part. Logic holes here that are not even looked at.
How is restricting information the same as destroying it? The information is there for review, once the people refusing the release are gone, or someone gets into it when they aren't supposed to. Not sure which looking glass you are using for this, as it is not the same thing. The information is not lost forever with restriction.
Not even close with D&D. The bedrock is the fact that the guidelines are there to help people play the game. It has some rules that can't be changed if you head over to another gamers world. The story line is not based on one history or future, as battle tech is. Your game can rule Waterdeep, or wipe it out. It does not stop the game from being played, and the novels do not change that.
You still don't understand just how little the world laws are being followed anymore. Money has been destroying the laws for them, while increasingly enforced for those that don't have it. Countries are going broke because the rich have been able to get around paying much of what they owe. That also includes things like their companies payroll issues. The companies in the news lately have been getting out of being punished, as they had made 'friends' with politicians, which divert and ultimately screw up investigations so there can be no punishment for those companies.
In the time of the SL, the periphery was a safe place for anyone associated with the SL? What are you reading from? The unification wars shows the lie to it being safe for IS investors. It takes just one local leader to seize control over the assets of a single company to show this. And the fact that the investors weren't in charge is part of the driving force to bring the periphery to heel.
Two years – Exodus
Six months for a clan resupply fleet to arrive in the Inner Sphere from Clan Space.
What the hell does this have to do with why someone wouldn't make it back to Terra when running the war against the periphery, and not try to change the education system for the first lord's child?
So you complain that Kerensky didn't leave the front to change how the first lord was tutored? But now you say that history has shown it was not necessary for him to run out on operations to see that the first lord was getting the proper training, despite the fact that Kerensky had no clue on what was really needed. He was a military person.
The alt threads are dedicated to saying canon is wrong because you don't like they way it has gone. If it was truly about showing an alternative, the terms only viable solution, and not possible for things to happen that way, would never show up in the discussion of the ideas. They all go along the lines of canon is wrong because this is what should have happened. And you refuse to learn that your numbers are not what they were using. The vision has the end information available to those before the whole chain of events takes place and modifies it so the events don't happen.
Canon is correct for those that created the game. It has a few more issues then it should, but for the purpose of the history of the game, it is absolutely correct. If you owned the game like you claim, then it would have been changed, but what do you know. It hasn't.
The SL was not a democracy, it was a feudal society, bordering on a monarchy/empire. The ruling house was never voted in, or continued to be voted in.
Rulers die on the battlefield because they believe they can't lose. And their forces do. What would have happened in history had the rulers did exactly what you said the coordinators as well as Victor should have done? Sat at home while their forces were in the field. Wow. They would not have died then, and may well have been able to survive the war. How differently the world would be today if that had happened.
As a side note, today, there have been far more non military trained people running countries then in the past. They are the ones calling for military action. So where is this concept that the top brass has to have gone thru all the ranks? Their boss normally hasn't seen a real battlefield until after it cools.
Because if Richard had even tried to do so, the SL would not have fallen, and the succession wars would not have destroyed so much in their trying to win the war quickly. The exodus would not have happened, as Amaris would not have been on Terra. The entire story would not be what is written.
Canon is written the way the developers wanted it so they can present the 'current' day as it is.
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Requiem
08/31/20 03:26 AM
1.158.133.26
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The cartoon has little validity here.
Except for …..
The entire reconnaissance mission
Adam Steiner – Archon of the LC
Franklin Sakamoto – Father Theodore Kurita – Great Granddaughter is Yori Sakamoto – Coordinator of the DC
Camelot Command ….. etc etc
Thus turning the little validity into very important CANON information …..
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All of the examples of the clans use of violence is nothing that hasn't happened in the past.
Dismissing who the Clans were and who they are now?
How does that work with revisionist history?
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The information is not lost forever with restriction.
How is that working out with freedom of information requests upon some of the most sensitive aspects of history?
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The bedrock is the fact that the guidelines are there to help people play the game.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamrowe1/2...r/#1fc42f1930ab
"DnD" sales grew more than 30%.
53% sales increase in e-books and print from 2017 to 2018
Wizards of the Coast sold over $31 million in print units across the 18-month period between May 2017 and October 2018 while selling $1.6 million in ebook units.
Try again ….
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You still don't understand just how little the world laws are being followed anymore.
Opinion does not equate to fact …..
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The unification wars shows the lie to it being safe for IS investors.
Rim Worlds Republic ….
The Republic maintained a sizable army with a gigantic reserve, a well educated/trained population, and a large defense industry.
How did they manufacture a military that brought the SL to its knees unless they had a massive economy to back them up?
Thus showing that the Rim Worlds was a very safe financial harbor ……
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Kerensky
Try reading and comprehending the Canon information ….
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The alt threads are dedicated to saying canon is wrong because you don't like they way it has gone.
Why must I constantly be told the status quo can never change?
Why play a game that is so stuck in the mud it cannot accept change due to the massive amount of errors that are discovered?
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The SL was not a democracy, it was a feudal society,
Then why do so many worlds have a Democratic Government? Governor, President etc
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there have been far more non military trained people running countries then in the past.
Try again – DC and FS both require warriors as their ruler ….
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The entire story would not be what is written.
Correct, this is what is so great about my Alt it completely deviates from the norm.
And I get to kill off many of stupidities of the canon history in one hit ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/31/20 12:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not dismissing the clans SOP. But it isn't unique in what the are doing. It is unique that they were completely out of touch with anything other then their society. Most of what they do is almost standard dictator material. It is interesting that you complain about Battletech having the clans they way they are, but don't seem to have issues with any other game and they way they do things. Yes, this is a board about Battletech, but I haven't seen anything that suggests you think D&D needs to have mindflayers (illithids) removed, as they eat peoples brains.
It means that the information can be accessed, though it may be illegal to do so. It isn't like destroying the information, then rewriting it so no one knows history didn't go the way those in power wants it to. The main difference with the clans is the dictatorship did not fall apart after the main leader that put it together died.
The entire history of D&D comes from solid rules and the fact the story is NOT written in stone, where you have to have certain things happen if you even attempt to play in another groups game. D&D is made so you can create your own little universe. Battletech you can't really make up your own weapons, have to stick with specific NPCs and all sorts of other things. The adventure packs are the only things that come close to Battletech in D&D. But most allow you to play your own creations in them, verse Battletech saying you have this or that unit.
This allows for a wider variety of things that can happen. For the most part, things that happen on Krynn, don't affect things on Greyhawk. So you aren't limited to a narrow range of things.
Opinion? More and more big companies are doing illegal actions and less are being punished for them. Legal loopholes are not accidents in the newer laws. They are written in there so the rich can get away with things, but the rest of the masses can't. Makes it that much harder for someone starting out to compete with the rich.
Also the fines put on the big companies is a laugh. 20 million dollar fine for gouging at the pumps for big oil. That is a joke. They made that in the first 1/2 hour at the pumps, if that long.
The RWR was, as you like to call the clans, favored to do so. It is how the story was developed to destroy the SL. It also explains why the LC is much larger then other realms as well as pushed out into the periphery so much. So start with your complaint there. They got away with something the rest of the IS couldn't.
So far, the way I see the story has been the way almost everyone I have talked to sees it. Only someone trying to nitpick it to death in order to try and force the developers to hire them to rewrite it to make it to their vision seems to be in disagreement. Again. Make your own game and history. You seem to think it is so easy. For some of the game, I do think the writers got writer's block and just threw things agains the wall to come up with things.
You are being told that presenting an alternative, and saying that canon can not exist because the alt does not agree with it, is not going to be happening. Saying canon is wrong, as it was the developers game, is the basis for the disagreement. Facts are the second thing.
How many times did the SL have an election for anything? I mean the entire thing. Not just a world or two? It was orders handed down from a single person, that went out to those in power because he could not be there, and they could manipulate those orders to fit their desires. Where the corruption is across all forms of government, the fact that one person has his cronies controlling large amounts of land in their name, and enforcing the lords will shows it is not a democracy.
The FS evolved into requiring that, but the DC was not required as suggested. The needing a warrior for the FS came from the first wars horrifying events. But yet both have had non warriors since then, run the government. And the response I gave was for todays nations as well as those in the past.
And you missed the very important world Today from that statement. That does not mean in the game, or future, but TODAY. It changes the whole meaning of the statement, which seems to be consistent anymore.
Reality check. Completely deviates from the norm is not what the alt does. It takes the base story line and changes it some, but does not fix all the issues there are. Using the same names and event while changing a few things isn't going to work well. The entire story line from the SL would not have anything the same in it. Certain people would never be born, and other events wouldn't have taken place. New events and people would come up, and yet nothing in the alt does this. It has the same people doing the same stupid things. So completely? Not even close.
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Requiem
09/01/20 05:01 AM
1.158.133.26
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Most of what they do is almost standard dictator material.
First Generation – Nicholas establishes the Clans and their Culture – and only one Clan recognizes the evil he has created and the remainder just go along with the program.
It is interesting that more within the Clans, who were all once SLDF, did not rebel at that time and join the wolverines as it is quite obvious that Nicholas had betrayed everything the SLDF stands for and had joined with Amaris (hypothetically) !
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It means that the information can be accessed.
By how many people – just the Khans and sa-khans?
Any limits on the availability of information that was one free to all is a betrayal of knowledge - it is destroying information from the majority of people’s minds – how can you ask for information if you do not know it even exists to begin with?
How many secrets are held by Governments if you do not know the topic / date to which they relate?
However there is one point the game forgot to consider with regards to knowledge – some of the Clans relate their Culture to specific cultural groups on terra – and many of them had access to “oral” history passed down through the ages – how many freeborn know the true history of the SLDF as passed down by oral history and know the perversion for which the Clans truly represent – the dark caste as the minimum?
This is the problem – they have destroyed information – they have destroyed history ……
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The entire history of D&D comes from solid rules and the fact the story is NOT written in stone ….
And yet the expansion pacts are written in stone, and relate to a point in time, eg Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms – the same as Battletech ….. The point is that no one gets bent out of shape if the game-master changes the story to fit their game as they do in Battletech.
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They got away with something the rest of the IS couldn't.
And in doing so proves that the entire IS’s ability to manufacture a massive amount of military products is greatly distorted.
It also proves that the majority of the RWR’s hidden military industrial facilities has yet to be discovered, as if it had been discovered by the LC they would have the largest military industrial facilities of any single house and should have been able to decimate the majority of all other houses through mass production …..
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So far, the way I see the story has been the way almost everyone I have talked to sees it. Only someone trying to nitpick it to death in order to try and force the developers to hire them to rewrite it to make it to their vision seems to be in disagreement.
Current Problems: Reintroduction of the tabletop brand (Advertising), Cash Flow and rebuilding the games rules / product so that more miniatures can be on the board and that air / land / sea / space forces can work more seamlessly (and the promise as to the descriptions of weapons and sensors are finally adhered to ….. etc
How to fix: There is currently only one viable solution for Battletech to survive (unless a white knight is found)
How: Consider Warhammer’s Horus Heresy Books – Battletech must produce (in a shot period of time) a series of books to the same size and quality as these (if not bigger and better) to derive brand recognition and cash flow – the funds can then be diverted to game, wages, advertising to create market penetration back into the game store ….
Thus this is dependent upon a very good story that will not only excite existing clients but expand the target market to others who appreciate science fiction …. Derive brand awareness to derive sales to crease a cash flow to produce more and more.
If this is not done soon the novels and the table top game will cease to be a viable business ….
As for making my own game – that is exactly what I am doing ……
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Saying canon is wrong, as it was the developers game, is the basis for the disagreement.
What happens when you read any book and it does not make any sense whatsoever – if it leaves out alternatives that could explain what is supposed to be occurring – if it is so one sided that it is blatantly a farcical - what do you do, just accept it at face value? or do you speak up and say “hay, I have issue with this as it just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever”?
If it does not make sense it is the duty of the gamer to speak up and say this does not make sense. It is the duty of the game developer to take issue of the gamer and either provide a logical response or to fix it.
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How many times did the SL have an election for anything? I mean the entire thing.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Terran_Hegemon
“After being elected as the first Director-General of the Terran Hegemony”
“As no agreement within the High Council could be reached, the matter was settled in a general election. During the tightly controlled campaign Cameron and Nellas frequently held debates, in which Nellas came across as a self-assured but smug career politician while Michael Cameron's quiet competence won him voters. In the end, Michael Cameron won the election and was sworn in as Director-General on January 17, 2340.”
“Margaret, … , was swiftly elected and sworn in as Director-General after a short campaign without an opposing candidate.”
“Suffering from cancer, Margaret Cameron retired in 2382 and was succeeded by her son Raymond Cameron.”
At this point we must ask were was the election?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League
Politics – High Council
“During a crisis an emergency meeting could be called, and for a matter of great importance a Council Directive, or Council Order, would be drafted AND PUT TO A VOTE, WITH A MAJORITY REQUIRED FOR PASSAGE. “
“Each Council Lord was also allowed to bring advisers, known unofficially as High Council Members, to Council meetings, to assist or even tell the Lords HOW THEY SHOULD VOTE.”
And on individual worlds how many have parliaments?
Lyran – Estates General etc …….
Free Wolds League - “the Free Worlds League was ostensibly a federal republic, with each province accorded a measure of self-rule while the representative Parliament served as the supreme federal authority.”
Do I really need to go on?
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But yet both have had non warriors since then
FS - constitutionally impossible as them must serve a minimum amount of time in the military to become First Princess / Prince.
DC – culturally impossible considering their adherence to the Samurai belief …..
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Using the same names and event while changing a few things isn't going to work well.
Problem is I have not posted the 80 pages so far regarding my alt history starting with the Star League and deviating completely from the fall of the Star League with completely new people throughout the entire IS - Richard Cameron and his generation are the last within my alt universe that have a place from within Canon – from there on it all changes ….. especially when Richard Cameron Marries the Pirate Princess from Tortuga …..
So not even close …. No exodus, no clans, no star league, only the Houses remain and even then they are vastly different than the game’s version …..
And yes I have killed off all WMDs within my game ….. Ethical responsibility will have its day ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/01/20 11:40 AM
66.74.60.165
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I believe more then a few thought Nicholas was distorting their ideas and the SL. But as they did with the exodus, they decided to stick with it.
Information can be accessed to all that can physically get to them. Which is far more then you might think. Granted taking the books or computer files and leaving with them would probably get you into trouble, you can still read it. The idea that the khans have the unbreakable password isn't likely at all. They are vain and egotistical, as well as arrogant that no one would try to defy them. And as said before, if a person with a password dies, how does their replacement get it? They probably don't. A new account is made. But does that mean the scientists delete the old ones? An account from a dead khan could well be given out to the masses to look up that information themselves.
Yet those adventures are not all encompassing. They are small areas on the map, and with that, you could very well ignore most of what happens. Alter reality and wish are but two ways to do so. For those that are too big to ignore, then simply moving into an alt prime can be done. Magic does wonders verses the strict happenings of Battletechs universe. There is a specific timeline as well as events that have to happen, if you want to keep anything close.
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Wick
09/01/20 11:57 AM
173.247.25.195
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Maybe a free election in 2340, but I seem to remember reading that at some point one of the Cameron Director-Generals had a law passed to ensure only a member of House Cameron could stand for Director-General. So at some point, the elections sort of become a rubber stamp for the head of House, usually unchallenged or perhaps with only a token challenge from a cadet branch.
Still, only electors of the Terran Hegemony would vote for Director-General. I can't imagine its a citizen-wide vote, though perhaps planetary citizens vote indirectly and the electors are bound to honor the results, in similar fashion to electors in the USA. I'm sure it would also be limited to the Terran Hegemony, not all the member and associate states, though its probable people in high position with double citizenship (Amaris family) may have a vote.
I know of no Star League era examples of a Star League-wide public vote or even direct voting beyond planetary or small interstellar empire scale. A Clan Kurultai comes closest, as it might be spread across dozens of worlds, though its still limited to only the Warrior caste. So if you consider the "shareholders" to be Warriors, and "CEO" to be "Khan", then I suppose the comparison is valid, but its a rather weak argument in my opinion as this form of semi-democracy only arose post-Star League era.
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ghostrider
09/01/20 05:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Cash flow can be helped some by not going out and buying the mega mansion, or the BMW, which seems to happen a lot when people start making money. The developers, like CEO's, should only make money if the company makes money. Not pay personal bills with the incoming money, and say it was your part of the profits, yet take a salary when the bills came up to more then you would make. Seen that happen more then a few times.
Consider the developers are very concerned about another lawsuit, so following anything to closely would result it total company failure.
Getting the rules straight among the board, tabletop, and RPG is necessary to get anything going. But even before that, getting the rules straight and following them entirely and consistently. Once that is done, then they can get to making the story/game on track.
You are not making your own game. You are modifying another. Or at least from all the garbage complained about in the threads says.
If a book doesn't make sense, then you never buy another one made by that author. If you like it, then you either just go with it, or wait until a new book comes out, and hope it explains a little more. The original Star Wars book didn't explain everything. Most of the first books in a series don't explain it all. If they did, then the book would be far to long, and still lose the reader. Books tend to have a limit on the number of pages.
Also, as said before, the issue is saying canon is wrong because the alt is the only viable way it can be done. This is a completely false statement. The constant saying the alt does this or that, and canon is wrong because of it is where this gets into an argument.
Out of all that bs ranting, how many of those elections had the general public vote? Not those in power, but the masses that will be affected by the outcome? None.
The masses voting is where democracy springs from. Otherwise, you tend to get... wow.. feudalism. Only those in power vote. Hmmm..
How many times did the SL have an election for anything? I mean the entire thing.
So those in power, put forth their personal choice in an emergency. I do not see anything about the masses having any say in this, except trying to pass off the house councils as such. They will vote for what will get them richer or more power. They will wheel and deal so it looks like the people they are supposed to represent, will get their way. Yet that doesn't happen.
The people in the parliment are normally hereditary people. Their families have had that position for some time.
Again, the response suggests you have not read, or understand the history of the IS.
Both the FS and DC have had non warriors ruling their nations. You say it is impossible, yet it is in print. Look it up in the books as there are several in each family line.
And no one in the 3025 with specific names exist. Hanse Davion, Takashi Kurita, Katrina Steiner, Janos Marik, Max Liao, don't sit on the thrones in 3025? Sorry. It is not different from canon.
And with this, I say again. Go to the official site and start this conversation up. They will tell you, canon can not be wrong as it is the story of those that made the game. It can have large holes of inconsistency in there, but those that created the game says this is what happened. How can that be wrong?
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Requiem
09/01/20 07:52 PM
1.158.133.26
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But as they did with the exodus, they decided to stick with it.
And in doing so lost their personals soul and the soul of the SLDF, proving how cowered they were – where was the honor of the SLDF and their officers from their days in the SL? …. They knew it was wrong – All it takes for evil to win is for the good to do nothing …..
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Information can be accessed to all that can physically get to them.
And how many freeborn would that include? As the most dangerous would relate to their days as the SLDF within the SL when they were actually an ethical force for good, and not the sons of Amaris they are now!
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The idea that the khans have the unbreakable password isn't likely at all.
And yet this is exactly how the coordinates for the Exodus road worked …..
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if a person with a password dies, how does their replacement get it?
Ever seen the films involving the president’s computer to start WW3 – ie the football – seen the cards they give out that you have to break open ….. or the computer could provide a new password with every new inductee …. It doesn’t have to be the same one …..
And since when is the most dangerous information scientific …..
The most dangerous has and is history – who we are and how we see ourselves …. Look at the history books and see how the revision has been made to represent the sensibilities of those at the time …… how much has been left out or amended?
Same with the Clans…. Do you really expect them to have documents laying around that show their treatment of the freeborn as well as having a caste system and having a warrior controlled society was never tolerated when they were SLDF within the SL – that during this age it was Liberte, egalite, fraternite ……
To allow this information to the masses and you will be having a civil war with ALL the freeborn demanding their rights and the total destruction of Clan Society ……
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There is a specific timeline as well as events that have to happen, if you want to keep anything close.
And yet it is very easy to shift anything around if desired to do so …
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a law passed to ensure only a member of House Cameron could stand for Director-General
the Succession Bill of 2392, which made it nearly impossible for a non-Cameron to become Director General
Problem is TPTB never decided to explain who the electors were and how this Succession Bill became law and if it was ever challenged as being constitutional and they never went into depth to explain the average persons reaction to this Bill …..
Personally this was a coup by the elite against the people – enforced by the will of the military ………
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Not pay personal bills with the incoming money
Illegal …..
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Once that is done, then they can get to making the story/game on track.
Must be the reverse …..
Target Market of the Novel far exceeds that of the game – ie the ability to generate more money to be used for the expansion of the Game will come from Novels in the absence of a new owner of the Battletech game who has deep pockets …..
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You are not making your own game. You are modifying another. Or at least from all the garbage complained about in the threads says.
Semantics !
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Canon Story
Then do explain how you can say the Canon has a problem and not be harassed at the same time for saying there is a problem …. There are too many elements within Canon that make no sense whatsoever and have never been explained because the problem is so egregious that any attempt would only highlight that the problem is beyond understanding …..
Case in point – Do explain the Sibko System and the Clan Replacement personnel due to loss in Combat and IEDs.
Also explain how the Clans can Garrison Ralsalhague when it has a population of 5 Billion people – especially when you consider that the Clans forces are limited in number by their bid.
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Books
Get the right author and the page count becomes immaterial due to the quality of work ……
There is quality in Battletech – there have been many novels that had quality of work – and yet the overarching story is as about as realistic as a cat flap in an elephant house ….. ignoring the realities of war when you have a very good understanding of historical developments shows here …. The structure of the underlying issues is woefully put together!
If there is any hope for Battletech re-launching and expanding once more back into the game stores etc the entire story must be re-addressed and re-written for the modern age – they are incredibly dated and must be re-worked otherwise there is no hope for the game as they just do not stand the test of time for literature as many others have ….
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Out of all that bs ranting, how many of those elections had the general public vote?
How many times has TPTB decided to explain who and when they were allowed to vote? Unless they explain how can you have a discussion on the issue? – once more a complete blackout as to the subject due to a lack of information …..
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Both the FS and DC have had non warriors ruling their nations.
Then provide a list ……as I will not do your work for you – make the assertion then back it up with facts …
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And no one in the 3025 with specific names exist. Hanse Davion, Takashi Kurita, Katrina Steiner, Janos Marik, Max Liao, don't sit on the thrones in 3025? Sorry. It is not different from canon.
80 pages in and I am still in the age of the SL – Richard Cameron is still alive fighting against the reengage realms, so 3025 is a very long way away …..
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Go to the official site and start this conversation up. They will tell you, canon can not be wrong as it is the story of those that made the game.
Why? – “will tell you, canon can not be wrong as it is the story of those that made the game” – I am right because I am right argument belongs in the school yard not the debating halls
When someone wants to conduct a serious debate let me know then …..
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How can that be wrong?
Pitiful structure of the story, inability to conduct research on the topic, not thinking through the consequences of their characters actions in a wider arena …. Inability to understand the story from a different person’s point of view … as it doesn’t always have to be from the point of view of a Ruler / Mechwarrior – how about an average citizen now and then – how about a partisan on a captured world, how about a freeborn tech,
Pitiful writing in not an excuse
Consider Warhammer – how many stories are taken from many diverse angles – including the lowest of the low ……. This point has made them what they are now how may franchise stores do they have and in how many countries with ho many new stock items put out EACH WEEK!
If you want Battletech to thrive in the future (other than in a computer game) then you will need a completely new revamp of the entire game for the modern age – you will need a Battletech 2.0 in order to reach a viable target market to expand upon.
If this is unable to be recognized then there will be no hope for the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/02/20 02:05 AM
66.74.60.165
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You still have not read and understood what happened. The civil war on the clan home worlds had everyone disgusted by war. They were all looking for something to break that cycle. Knowing humanity, especially soldiers, had a hard time dealing with non violence, so Nicholas thought of a way to do so and limit the collateral damage. It evolved into something the SLDF was not a part of, but then the SLDF ways gave the civil war it's basis. The clans way, before it became corrupted, was a good way to do things. Once the other castes lost their power, that is when the clans took their dark turn.
Funny that the clans are the sons of Amaris, yet they have not used a single nuke while invading. Only one orbital bombardment, and it was denounced by even the clan that had done so. Yet the IS states, including the FS have nuked the enemy, used other WMD, as well as brutal suppression of the enemy and their civilians. The DC and CC are the most likely to do so, but all of the houses have done so in the past. Sons of Amaris. You got the wrong entity pegged with that.
Again, another false statement. The exodus road was not unbreakable. It was done, and the IS removed the Jaguars because of it.
Have you really not given any thought to your responses? The scientist caste is the one that handles the computer network. The information that can get access to is everything the clans put into the system, even the khans. Nothing is safe from them. They could very well bug the khans private quarters and the khans would never know about it. So you want your little secret wars, as said before, the scientists have been fighting against clan traditions. They only got caught when TPTB wanted them to. It was to save the Falcons. It is suggested that the scientists had been mixing dna from any one they wanted to and seeing the results. And the Wolves could not pull off getting some members into the Falcons as spies, without outside help. The DNA would have to match, so the scientists would have to be involved or maybe where the ones to do so.
Shift around things? The FC came about because Katrina had a daughter by her husband that was helping her run from her uncle. If she wasn't forced to run, she would never have had Melissa. The coordinators assassination on Kentares had to happen, or the massacre would not have happened. The entire SL would not have fallen apart when it did, without Amaris grabbing for power. Change the names, it is still the same thing. Nothing new.
What? Your saying the SL first Lords were political hacks that rigged the system to make sure only their family could run the SL? And suggesting the SLDF were enforcing that very premise? Sounds like foreshadowing of the clans. Or a repeat of history.
It would have been relatively simple to con the house lords into voting for it. Promises, as well as 'gifts' would help seal the deal. The LC may have been given the Defiance factories for their vote. Extra forces, for the FS and DC. Financial assistance to the CC to help get their nation together better, as it was the last one to be formed.
Illegal to pay your personal bills with the company? Are you really that far out of touch? Even in Australia they are having politicians being busted for using tax payer money to pay for their bills, and making more. Corporations do it all the time as well. Perks comes to mind. The company pays for certain people to drive company owned vehicles around, basically making it that persons as no one else gets to drive it, ever. Paying for the family to take a vacation in great places, by saying it is a business meeting, and just handing in the bill.
Yes. It is supposed to be illegal, but it is being done regularly by more then a few people.
Must be reverse? Really? Another response that makes no sense. You need to get the rules straightened out before you can do anything like get a consistent story going. You can't put out a story and change it several times as the rules change, and expect the outcome to be anywhere close. It seems like trying to retcon in things is where the canon story has so many issues. New rules come out, and they try to make it sound like it was always in the story. Yet it opens up holes in the time line. So no. The story has to be done after the rules are done. Otherwise, there is no solid base for the story to build upon.
Semantics? It's called copyright infringement. Using the same game mechanism but only changing the story is still not making your own game. It is stealing from someone else. And as you so often put it, Warhammer and Gundam Wing would be far better to use.
As said before. The use of terms like canon is wrong because my numbers say it is, is where the issue starts. The people who made the game had their own formula that they used to make it. They can not be wrong with their own game. And harassment? The entire farce called the alt history has been nothing but trying to harass the developers which I don't think really come here.
Maybe if you weren't always putting in words and trying the comprehensive reading and just read the books, you would understand why things were done they way they are. It explains it all in there. Weither you agree with it or not is the problem.
The sibko was never meant to deal with heavy losses like the IS war would have done. Once the realized what would happen, they went to increase the numbers, but it was too late. So the clans went where they could. Their own low placed warriors on up to harvesting them from other clans. The truce saved them as much as it did the IS because of that reason. It may well be why the clans did honor it even after Ulric was removed. No one would admit it in the clans.
As for garrisoning worlds, the game has been one to suggest that if the capital falls, so does the world. It is a very basic thing, and one I don't agree with. But if you really went down that road, there is no way the DC could have come about. They could NOT garrison the first few worlds they took, much less the rest. Same thing with any sort of invasion. The need for jumpships would outstrip the entire IS ship numbers. So to keep it simple, the capital falling is what is done.
You want wolfpack tactics, that is where it would shine. Keeping garrison units from ever reaching a world. The forces that took it might be the best, but they could not be moved until the garrisons get there. And removing the ships from existence means limiting them as well.
Again. Quick sand foundation without resolving all the issues with the rules. Infantry became a lot more potent with the change in rules. The big bad units like the Awesome become useless when dealing with them. That would change the entire outcome of more then a few battles. The lack of naval weapons guarding certain facilities is yet another large hole. Ship yards would definitely have them guarding the last jumpship facilities. The inability of remote controlled units is yet another large hole.
You argue more then a few things that have no data available to the public, such as the entire alt history and the amount of resources available. And using that to say canon is wrong.
But if there were ANY sort of ability for the masses to vote, it would be written down. So the idea of feudal society comes to mind. The masses don't vote on much, as only those in power can do so. And even then, only the most powerful of them get to vote. The FS started off as a democracy, but house Davion was able to swing that so they would remain in charge. What is so hard to believe about the SL doing so? The SL was an empire structured entity. The kings or house lords were the next step. Then go on down the line. If any sort of comprehension would be used, it would be in this aspect.
It is not doing any sort of doing work for anyone. If you had actually read the real words in the books you would have known that non warriors did run the FS and DC at times. But they are there. Wow. The first Davion to rule the FS wasn't a warrior at all. They were a simple business man that was voted into the position. And if I recall, it was Jinjiro's brother that ran the DC while Jinjiro ran the military part of it. A non warrior running the DC. Those were in the house source books before the clans came into the IS.
Why? – “will tell you, canon can not be wrong as it is the story of those that made the game” – I am right because I am right argument belongs in the school yard not the debating halls
This is the very premise of the alt. It may have been able to be pulled out, but after all the saying it is the only way, this whole discussion boils down to you saying this very statement.
The writing is horrible, but it still can not be wrong. They are the story master telling their tale of their game. Don't like it, then don't play it. Simple as that. If you want to show an alternative, then do so, but the canon version is not wrong. Saying so because you don't like it, does not help the case of trying to suggest the threads are about showing an alternative. It is using your numbers to suggest the writers numbers were completely wrong.
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Requiem
09/02/20 11:35 AM
1.158.133.26
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You still have not read and understood what happened.
And I would agree with that …. Here I was thinking the war was due to a sense of identity that was fragmented because Alexander’s inept rule and tyrannical voyage had shattered the SLDF bonds that had once existed within the IS …. And Nicholas was just a power mad child who had a father complex because he felt abandoned by his father growing up and when his father refused to acknowledge him as his son when the House Lords visited Terra … so he could not go to any of the parties / was never recognized as being his father’s son so he became twisted and vowed to destroy everything his father held dear …. And as such the former SLDF personnel who went with him on the second exodus believed the lies he spewed and never really thought through the consequences of what he was planning until it had all gone too far …. And they were no longer SLDF they were Amaris’.
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The clans way, before it became corrupted, was a good way to do things.
And pre 1938 The German Government and people was on the right path ….. take a closer look, they were NEVER a good way to do things - Castes, no last names, feudal society based upon warrior status, second class citizens, not being allowed to remain as a family group, flogging, public humiliation, setting the dogs on people (Literally) – the atrocities during the reformation ….. all they are is an exact match for the German Government pre 1938 or Amaris’.
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Funny that the clans are the sons of Amaris, yet they have not used a single nuke while invading.
How many times did they use them on the Clan Home Worlds? How quick was the Jaguar in ordering the attack?
All it takes is to use it once to show they will do any form of atrocity again if they feel the situation warrants it ……
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You got the wrong entity pegged with that.
No dead on with that assertion.
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Again, another false statement. The exodus road was not unbreakable.
Again please re-read and comprehend what was written – it was in regards to how information is stored not that it was unbreakable.
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The scientist caste is the one that handles the computer network. The information that can get access to is everything the clans put into the system, even the khans. Nothing is safe from them.
Really? Try again who compiles the NSA, CIA, FBI Military Intelligence etc information and what level of security is required – if they (the scientists) had access to all the information then why did they lose their war with the warriors as the incendiary nature of the hidden information should have been enough to drive every freeborn to their cause and as such the warriors and their ilk should have fallen!
Try again ….
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Change the names, it is still the same thing. Nothing new.
Try to explain this to some of the greatest authors ….
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Must be reverse? Really?
Consider – The number of people per target market and their disposable income – Game – Less people as Niche Market – Novel – More People due to a wider audience availability via book shop within science fiction category – ie More profit – more money applied to future business expansion …..
Sibkos – where is even one loss depletion report by a single clan for the entire invasion? And yet the IS has been forces to ensure an endless parade of lies as to their loss depletion reports ….. Vehicles etc vs the Clans …….. then the number of replacement personnel and it takes 6 month to arrive …. Tyranny of distance ……
Garrisoning worlds – 5 Billion people on one world – what was the population of the Clans at this stage? 1/20th ? good luck with garrisoning a single world that out populates your entire clan by such a very high factor ………
Woolfpacks would have decimated the Clan’s rear as once again they were never trained for such a venture whereas the IS are …. And by the way this would have made for a fascinating story line ….. also how hard is it to crack open a history book?
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The masses don't vote on much
Depends on the country and their constitution ….
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The SL was an empire structured entity.
FWL are?
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The writing is horrible, but it still can not be wrong.
Completely disagree – a writer should be held accountable for their work – if something does not make sense it should be brought forward to ask why?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/02/20 12:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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So the reason was not the fact that the soldiers in the exodus army decided their native heritage was better then those from other nations, and decided to show them up with weapons. The fact that the succession wars was fought in the clan home worlds, minus most of the nukes. The war itself was so bad, even on those that were outside of the main worlds, could not stand to see what happened, start again. Alls you see is what you want to.
And that little term before they got corrupted. That happened when the warriors removed the other castes from any sort of voting or ruling. But then all governments run into things like this eventually.
The attack was not ordered by the Jaguar khans. It was the ship captain that decided to show the barbarians what would happen if they didn't obey. And when it warrants, the clans honor would stop any sort of nuke as it is beyond wasteful. They try to fight machine to machine in ground combat ranges.
Learn about the real world. The scientists wanted to become the new warrior caste for power. They could not even begin to sway the lower warriors if they used the masses of freeborns and failed trueborns, which all of the scientists were from either one. And in such an uprising, the amount of people they needed to keep the system going would die off trying to fight against the machines of the warriors.
And the fact that the clans are nothing like todays society, you keep forgetting major facts, like the warriors were not the tech experts. The secrets in the system might work against those that blackmail can affect, but most of the clans ways were set. There was no worries of private affairs as they don't do that sort of thing. They just ask to couple. Diverting funds for things? Not likely. Credits are the form of cash, so there is always some sort of receipt of the transfer, so you can't really hide that. Secret deals? There are some of those, but it wouldn't really force a khan to submit to the scientists.
And yet this is exactly how the coordinates for the Exodus road worked …..
That statement says the coordinates for the exodus road was unbreakable. It was used as an example of how the scientists couldn't get into the computer systems they designed, programmed and built.
And considering the context of the statement it was replying to, that was about the scientists getting into the systems in order to get what ever information they wanted to.
The greatest authors don't try to remake a story, and have the same thing happening with just new names. Plaguerism or something like that is the term used. Changing things in the past means the future outcome does not happen the way it was written. The succession wars war not that destructive, then warships would still be in use, and jumpships would be a target. The events leading up to things like even merc units being formed would not have happened, as pirates, true pirates, would not have been able to get anywhere with a world that had the proper level of equipment. The dropships and maybe even the jumpship they used would be taken out. More then a few of the past leaders would not have died fighting where they were at. Even just having the SL survive would destroy the events in the 3000s and beyond. Advance tech of the SL would be in use, so the bs of losing it would change more then a few things. The SL bases would be in possession of the houses, so the entire need to search for them would be gone. No Helm Core. No finding regiments of mechs in caches. The destruction on border worlds would have them devastated, as more units would fight over them time and time again. That is IF the front lines were able to keep the enemy at bay. With ion-lithium batteries, 2 jumps would be necessary with the need to patrol uninhabited systems to avoid deep raids.
So no. The events leading up to the 3000s would change the ruling houses beyond what they could be in 3025.
Did you even read the response again? What does this statement say?
The sibko was never meant to deal with heavy losses like the IS war would have done. Once they realized what would happen, they went to increase the numbers, but it was too late.
This says the clans were going to lose with a war of attrition. It says the sibko method would not keep up with the losses. Then the next part, which is a temporary fix at best, was the clans started getting warriors from where ever they could. Their own lower units as well as harvesting from other clans. Eventually, this would have run out, and it is very doubtful the egotistical leaders would have begun enough sibkos to do anything about the attrition. Eventually, this would have lead to either the complete collapse of the clan way, or they would start using everything they had to stop the slide. This would include orbital bombardments as well as WMD.
The history books of today are not filled with the truth so much. And the concept of the wolf pack works when you have access to your repair and resupply points quickly. Having to wait for a jumpship, which would have to happen, as resources were not there in the canon, would prevent this as well as running into a single warship that would destroy your ships where they were. This is true even if you have warships yourself, as they would NOT be guarding the wolf packs, but hitting the enemy on your worlds.
Context. In a feudal society, the masses didn't vote much, the rich and powerful do. Not sure why you think you can change the meaning of this, unless this is how your conclusions come from. Not reading the entire paragraph at once, but removing everything that isn't what you want.
The FWL is an oddity. They are the closest thing to a democracy, but still a weak feudal system. The 'king' did not have the power to force the 'dukes' to obey him. Too many opposed the 'king' but they stuck together as they would hang separately.
Why? Simple. Not following their own rules to start. Then adding in stuff over 30 years, with trying to retcon in a lot of things. Then add in the fact they did not really think of the future tech and add it into the game years before they did is yet another issue. Not sure if the developers did the actual writing for the books or had someone else do it, but their own numbers were not consistent, even with the same battle. One book says one thing, while another says something else. Example: From the adventure pack Mckinnons raiders. One fight story suggests that the battle hardened warriors thought the dropships were able to fire naval weapons on mech. It suggest one shot would destroy a mech. Then when the person was crawling the mech on it's hands and knees, he said that he was thankful for that no being the case. They do not mention naval weapons as such, but the damage output would be an example. But one issue is the fact that no where in the rules does it say a mech can crawl. Pull itself along is the closest thing. But even that isn't likely over a distance. Then not knowing the weapons on a dropship are the same ones in your mech?
But again. The story is the base for what happened. It can not be wrong as it is describing what happened to get the situation into the current position for canon.
Now for the last part of the statement. If should be brought forward to ask why. Presentation starts being able to ask why. Jumping in and saying it is wrong because it doesn't follow your views is one of the worse ways to start that conversation.
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Wick
09/02/20 01:01 PM
173.247.25.195
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To allow this information to the masses and you will be having a civil war with ALL the freeborn demanding their rights and the total destruction of Clan Society ……
Except the Warrior caste military, controlled by trueborns, has shown capacity and willingness to exterminate lower levels of society to maintain their grip on power. That's why those with such information end up dead, or in the Bandit Caste or The Society, undermining the Clan system not by civil war, but by more indirect means.
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Problem is TPTB never decided to explain who the electors were and how this Succession Bill became law and if it was ever challenged as being constitutional and they never went into depth to explain the average persons reaction to this Bill …
Must the authors explain every piece of legislature mentioned in canon? There's a limit to how much detail is needed to make the story work, especially many hundreds of years before the prime plots occur. I mean, few people know all the details behind the rise of the Roman Republic, or the signing of the Magna Carta, yet they provide the basis for most democratic government systems in the world today. Its sufficient to say "this happened 400 years ago to set a precedent" and unless there's some serious detail to undermine it, it doesn't really need to be questioned. Would it be nice to know the detail? Sure. But let's not go so far as to call it a problem. It's such a minor, insignificant detail that to complain that it wrecks everything else about Battletech is ridiculous.
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Also explain how the Clans can Garrison Ralsalhague when it has a population of 5 Billion people – especially when you consider that the Clans forces are limited in number by their bid.
If these 5 billion people are disarmed, what are they going to do, throw sticks and rocks at Battlemechs and Elementals? A PGC or two seems more than sufficient to garrison any world, regardless of populace size if that populace really has little means to defeat the Clan war machine. I'm sure there were riots and discord, but only at local levels swiftly snuffed out by the Clans. They'd take more drastic action (executions, sterilizations, etc.) if rioting got out of hand. In in any case, the Wolves and Ghost Bears were less strict with conquered Spheroids. They mostly let people live their lives as they always had, except for industries that could support military uses no longer being able to sell on an open market. Plus, these people were used to being under the yoke of foreign masters - they'd spent centuries under Combine rule. In fact, it had been established that on many worlds of the Inner Sphere, the publics were rather used to the idea of being conquered by another power, and perhaps only the nobles, military, and militia, and a few other institutions (such as clergy in the NACC on Combine-border worlds) feared it.
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If there is any hope for Battletech re-launching and expanding once more back into the game stores etc the entire story must be re-addressed and re-written for the modern age – they are incredibly dated and must be re-worked otherwise there is no hope for the game as they just do not stand the test of time for literature as many others have …
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You are not making your own game. You are modifying another. Or at least from all the garbage complained about in the threads says.
Semantics !
No, that's exactly what you just said you were doing. Taking "bad" canon (in your opinion) and rewriting it to be "better", but call it the same game.
Alt histories are fine, and even alt histories that explain themselves as more reasonable, or a better fit for other canon events is fine, but to say everything else is unreasonable and only your version makes sense is highly egotistic. You are not the best author in the world. Nor do I particularly find your story anymore believable than what established canon has done. There are stretches of the imagination in both canon and your alt history. As both are entirely fictional, one can not be proven better than the other. Except one has a 35 year established history covering the efforts of hundreds of contributors, and the other newer, written by one person. Besides pointing out your perceived flaws in the logic or outcomes of certain events, you really haven't done much to definitively prove your alt history as any better than canon history, and most certainly have not proven that the history needs to be completed redone to increase sales.
In my opinion, what is needed from a fiction/history standpoint are two things: heroes and better spacing. Hanse and Justin were guys you rooted for in the early books, Victor and Ulric in the Clan Invasion/Civil War/Jihad books, while Dark Age seemed to get muddled with more of an ensemble cast. Too much change occurred in the 3050-3085 timeframe for a lot of players to wrap their heads around, then they did it again in the 3132-3150 timeframe. Developers did a better job moving the start of Dark Age out another 50 years, and with ilClan coming another 100 down the road - this gives time for changes in the political or military landscapes to occur to make more sense than these one or two year complete reversals of fortune, but they try to do too much in too little of a time with too much personnel turnover. (Alot happened in the short 4th Succession War as well, but its not like the War of 3039 happened in 3032, and the Clan Invasion in 3034.) I can't see how Alexsandr Kerkensy (or Richard Cameron or anyone else) as any more a hero in your story than in canon, and you've collapsed everything down to the 10-20 years at the end of Star League-era, presenting the same overly dense timing. By these two metrics, I find your story does not pass muster as "better", though I still find certain aspects of it to be intriguing what-ifs.
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If you want Battletech to thrive in the future (other than in a computer game) then you will need a completely new revamp of the entire game for the modern age – you will need a Battletech 2.0 in order to reach a viable target market to expand upon.
Dark Age is arguably Battletech 2.0. New game mechanics and attempt to rewrite history to put less focus on mechs. And it backfired badly. The game just isn't as good and alienated fans of classic, and the novels were, as I understand it, not as engaging or popular as the earlier ones. Maybe you're wise to keep the same mechanics and only rewrite history, but no guarantee that its better. Except continuing to add to the end, as Dark Age and ilClan do, does not upset fans of or change the facts that happened in earlier eras. Yours does. Your plan utterly erases the late Succession War era that I love just to satisfy problems you have with the late Star League era. Your professed desire to destroy Battletech 1.0 to create your Battletech 2.0 (or 3.0) will be met with resistance by anyone with a stake in 1.0's history. That's 100% of current players. You or anyone else wants to tweak things that run off 5,10, 25% of players, okay, that's perhaps acceptable loss if recovered by newer players. Dark Age risked running off so many players that they had to bring them back into the fold with the Classic Battletech line. Say you went to market with your idea. How are you going to get the fans of later eras to buy in? How are you going to convince bookstores to sell books for a history that has been abandoned? (Star Wars is experiencing this problem since the sequel trilogy came out.) What becomes of the hundreds of mechs, art, and details supplied? What happens to websites like sarna.net? You're actively campaigning that the efforts of all the people that created it should be undone for the sake of a potentially more realistic story? You claim a revamp is needed but intend to not just repeat the mistake made with Dark Age, but do it in greater scope.
On the other hand, I do agree a revamp is needed for broader appeal, but with the gameplay, not story. Early editions of Battletech centered on late Succession War era is much easier to pick up. 2nd edition Citytech rulebook is about 40 pages (and included dice, boards, and cutouts), Compendium bloated to about 130 pages, Master Rules to 150, and Classic Companion is a whopping 250. The rules have gotten way too complicated for new players to pick up and way too much rarely used mechanics or detail. It got so bad that they had to introduce Quick-Strike just to speed things up again. (That said, I appreciate the Classic Quick Start rules simplifying things down to a 15 page PDF, complete with board and cutouts, but I don't think this is a product sold in game stores so its market appeal is more limited.) If a revamp to appeal to larger audiences is needed, I argue it needs to be in the ruleset, making Quick Start the "Basic Set" and adding additional rules on top of it as needed for campaign and era.
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Requiem
09/02/20 07:41 PM
1.158.133.26
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It was the ship captain that decided to show the barbarians what would happen if they didn't obey.
Galaxy Commander Cordera Perez is not just a ship’s Captain – he was the Commander of Clan Smoke Jaguar’s Beta Galaxy thus making him a senior officer ……
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They could not even begin to sway the lower warriors if they used the masses of freeborns and failed trueborns,
Thus demonstrating the stupidity of the entire venture – how about a true coup that recognized how to cut the warriors off from the knee and no the half baked plan that was given? Again can we have some reality in the writing as this is getting embarrassing.
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And yet this is exactly how the coordinates for the Exodus road worked …..
And yet the original question was in regards to how information was kept secret – ie every clan had one piece of the Exodus road and it would take all the Clans to put this information together to form the complete road’s coordinates from clan space back to the IS.
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The greatest authors don't try to remake a story, and have the same thing happening with just new names.
Consider Shakespeare’s Macbeth ….
Akira kurosawa version; the version set in the 1900’s; the version set mid 1900’s etc
Many have taken liberties with their stories over the years …..
Plagiarism – relates to taking a direct quote out and not recognizing the original source …
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the clans started getting warriors from where ever they could. Their own lower units as well as harvesting from other clans.
First – their own lower units – Freeborn? Or Solhama? Or PGCs – problem is PGCs were very small – Jade Falcon was only equated to two IS Regiments and The idea of training more Freeborn will take a long period of time and be met with derision from all the other clans – as for Solhama – how many remain alive as most would run off in a do or die mission for one last chance at immortality ….
Second, harvesting from other Clans – if done correctly and not the cheating as shown post Falcon / Wolf War – with the Jaguars and the Home Clans – harvesting if done correctly you could end up losing more warriors than you obtain as it supposed to be a full out war and not the stupidity of warriors just giving up so that they can switch sides and go fight in the IS …. Where is the Clan Warriors pride?
So again – a complete white wash as to clans cultural norms so that they can cheat with the forces they have available against the IS – in all reality at this point the IS should have killed off both the Falcons and the Wolves and the Jaguars should have taken a beating due to harvesting of their warriors!
Re-write please as this is very bad writing ….
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they would start using everything they had to stop the slide. This would include orbital bombardments as well as WMD.
And as such you now agree that they are Amaris’s?
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And the concept of the wolf pack works when you have access to your repair and resupply points quickly.
Submarine warfare – WW1 and WW2 – Germany and America ….. try again …..
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In a feudal society, the masses didn't vote much, the rich and powerful do.
Ever consider reading the notes attached to the majority of the planets in the books ……
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The FWL is an oddity. They are the closest thing to a democracy
And yet the democracy is there ….. just the same as the LC has their Estates General …..
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has shown capacity and willingness to exterminate lower levels of society to maintain their grip on power
Problem is – if they kill all the Freeborn who are waging a war against them who is going to make things in the future like food – military weapons etc - remove the freeborn and it is a total collapse of society due to the lack of people actually doing the work to keep society going ….
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There's a limit to how much detail is needed to make the story work
And yet the really good stores actually do explain society and how it works by placing in information here there and everywhere to make the story more dynamic …..
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few people know all the details behind the rise of the Roman Republic, or the signing of the Magna Carta
Thus proving the point of how bad education is today in some countries ….
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But let's not go so far as to call it a problem. It's such a minor, insignificant detail that to complain that it wrecks everything else about Battletech is ridiculous.
D&D …. Don’t you need this type of information just in case it is necessary for your players to go down this track?
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to say everything else is unreasonable and only your version makes sense is highly egotistic
Try again … re-read why I made my assertions and why I have made them, oh so many times, and yet every time I did no one bothered to read or remember what I said …. And please do stop saying I say things when I haven’t ……
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Say you went to market with your idea. How are you going to get the fans of later eras to buy in? How are you going to convince bookstores to sell books for a history that has been abandoned?
It all comes down to the author and the quality of the story – as for getting it into bookshops this is via the publishing houses – how does any book get published and sold in book stores? Make a good product and they will sell and buy it …..
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If a revamp to appeal to larger audiences is needed, I argue it needs to be in the ruleset, making Quick Start the "Basic Set" and adding additional rules on top of it as needed for campaign and era.
Whoever has the largest target market and the largest disposable income and can produce the largest profit over a short period of time should be considered – cash flow need to be increased so as more products can be created – as Warhammer’s weekly release schedule demonstrates a vastly efficient corporation with a massive employee base to produce everything …..
Something that should be the aim of Battletech within the next 35 years …..
So again what is the first step to reinvigorate the brand?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/02/20 09:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wick.
Requiem wants everything spelled out, yet complains that it doesn't allow GMs any input into the game. So yes. Everything has to be spelled out, so he can poke holes in it to say it is wrong.
Now back to the regular programming...
Senior officer? The khans themselves said he over stepped his authority. They did NOT order such use. And you say the khans have ultimate power over their clans. This shows the logic hole in that statement. They do NOT have complete control over their clans.
What does that have to do with the scientists being able to get into the secured files in the computer memory cores? And you honestly think that there isn't a back up map or two in the system? You are out of luck if one clans loses their section of it. Having it stashed in the HQ when it is attacked and that is destroyed. There is no way they would allow that. So each clan could not have the only data on the one section. Otherwise, they would have used it to be part of the invasion. Not giving it up unless they go. And with this, you question why it takes so long to get supplies to the IS? Sheesh. Try comprehending every thing before you try and complain.
And no. The original question did NOT relate to the Exodus road information. Comprehension failure number... 5 million I think it is at now.
The people that do such things like rewrite stories with just name changes are NOT great Authors. They are hacks that are lucky if they don't get sued. Great Authors come up with their own stories.
Bringing up the truth of what would happen does not mean I agree with it. This very concept is why you don't understand things. Your Psycology major is worthless, as you can not see or understand this.
Also you left out the other part where I said the clans ways of life would collapse. So did you skip that part? It was part of the same sentence.
Amaris wasn't the first or only person to do something like this. He was the one that gained the most infamy for doing so. Yet the succession wars had for more nukes and families wiped out due to their noble blood belonging to the enemy nation. But this point destroys the focus on Amaris. And the nukes would have been a major factor in removing SLDF troops from getting to the field. So the horrible losses make sense when that is added in. It still doesn't explain it all, but no one thing ever will.
So how long would it take a sub to reach the nearest solar system? The week it would take to get back to base on a SINGLE world is nothing compared to what it takes to get back to a base located in the next solar system. But distance is only taken into account when bagging the clans supply lines. I mean all those warships the IS had when the clans invaded had nothing to do but supply wolf packs... Oh yeah. There were no warships in the IS before the clans came. Tyranny of distance is what you call it. I call it just being too long to do much quickly.
The same people that are doing the lesser jobs now. The failed trueborns. There are more then enough to do everything that is needed to. Inefficiency is why there are so many freeborns doing those jobs. Then again, what else are the going to do? It isn't like the clans have welfare.
There is NO story that explains it all. Other then possibly a tech manual. If they did, then the story would be about 2 pages long and the rest all definitions. War and Peace is not supposed to be the typical book, yet by suggesting they all explain everything, this seems to be the concept you are holding.
Even the best historians don't know the full truth of anything in the past. History is written by the victors as well as people who may well have a bias against someone. And translations lose things like how something was written. How something is said is as important at times, on what is actually said. But the great author would know this.
D&D has more leeway as it does not require everyone to use specific histories to play, like Battletech does. And that is worded wrong as you don't need any real history to play either game. Just having the rules and with D&D you make them up when their is nothing covering them.
And this is part of why there are two major books for the game. The players handbook and the Dungeon Masters Guide. Most people playing do NOT follow the worlds that are set up, but make their own. And they DON'T say the canon worlds are wrong, as it isn't their vision.
Then I suggest you reread everything you wrote, as you say things then say you didn't. If you can't remember constantly saying the only viable solution, or can't happen that way, then until you can, adding more is going to confuse you even more. You have said a lot then claim otherwise.
And the things you put out are not assertations, but your views in which to suggest the canon version is absolutely wrong, even though it is what the developers put up to try and explain some of the history.
Having a lot of money does NOT mean you have a good product. Having little money doesn't mean your product stinks when first starting.
And it seems the economic major you have was incorrect. Cash flow needing to be increase so more products can be created is inaccurate. Cash flow means money coming in is used to get products out. If there is no income, then their is only debt spending, not cash flow. Maybe needing a dictionary to get the right words is something you should invest in.
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Requiem
09/03/20 06:28 PM
1.158.133.26
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Requiem wants everything spelled out,
That’s it?
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Senior officer? The khans themselves said he over stepped his authority.
He was a Galaxy Commander – Placing him very high within the Smoke Jaguars Chain of Command ….
First Consider - Corporate Culture - his actions were the actions of a frustrated Crusader dealing with IS freeborn;
Second – over stepping his authority – One crusader disavowing the actions of another because the former friendship has become unpopular / inconvenient politically – in reality the destruction of the city would have been seen as by all Zealot Crusaders as being the right thing to do given the situation.
All this represents is an appeasement of the Warden Faction by the Crusader faction by providing a scapegoat.
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What does that have to do with the scientists being able to get into the secured files in the computer memory cores?
Consider the original topic regarding the Clan Khans limiting the access to information to a chosen few …….
And no there is no back up Exodus Road Map – Nicholas requires a captive and servile population to enact his megalomaniac vision of deranged society upon.
Remember he is just a Cult leader with a messianic / absentee-father complex, demanding from his followers their blind obedience to all the insanity he inflicts upon a cowered and deranged society ……
The Clans will never be free until they recognize that Nicholas was a deranged cult leader – a sociopath in the worst form …..
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The people that do such things like rewrite stories with just name changes are NOT great Authors.
Try to explain this all the Hollywood script writers.
And the best can actually place their characters into a vibrant and descriptive setting rather than ignoring the entire issue – how many Battletech novels forgot to explain in detail the world they were on and just glossed over the facts?
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Bringing up the truth of what would happen does not mean I agree with it.
Time sets all things right. Error lives but a day. Truth is eternal.
James Longstreet
In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
An education allows for discerning objectivity –
My warning is either the establishment of a new overarching story for the Battletech Universe is achieved (for a new clientele – as the target markets dynamics have shifted) or watch what remains slowly fade away into obscurity …. There is a need to consider the achievements of the many competition games and the reach they have achieved into the average gaming shop as well as the vast range – then consider the number Battletech has produced as well as the quality ….
As for Amaris – if Kerensky was not so incompetent at his job Amaris would have been but a footnote in history and the succession wars would not have occurred…..
The real fault for the fall of society lies at the feet of both the Mad First Lord who appointed Kerensky and Kerensky himself for being incompetent at his job …..
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There is NO story that explains it all. Other then possibly a tech manual.
Except for the great literature pieces ….. and even some mediocre are even able to achieve something special …..
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History is written by the victors as well as people who may well have a bias against someone.
And yet historical truth is starting to be unearthed by those willing to find it …..
Understanding history as well as who writes history allows for future generations to learn from the mistakes of the past.
It also allows for novelists to establish vibrant stories for settings in the past or for those with the acumen to do so in a future setting …..
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And they DON'T say the canon worlds are wrong, as it isn't their vision.
And fellow gamers don’t get bent out of shape when a new world and anew vision for a world is created because the game and the gamers allow for tolerance.
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And the things you put out are not assertations, but your views in which to suggest the canon version is absolutely wrong, even though it is what the developers put up to try and explain some of the history.
Assertion Definition - a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief;
The basic act of asserting is in itself an expression of your personal beliefs, feelings or opinions ….. ie. my views as to the errors within the games historical narrative when considering the political, sociological, geographical, economic, military tactical etc standpoint …. Ie. MY VIEWS
Two mutually distinct viewpoints can be established!
Ever considered how the War-hammer franchise establishes their history – novels and manuals?
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then their is only debt spending
Insolvent trading is an illegal business practice.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/03/20 08:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wow. It couldn't be that the crusaders knew such actions would inflame the populace that finds out about it, making their career skill that much more difficult? Or that it was a waste of a city because someone lost their temper? Maybe the othe crusaders would take this as an example of what they will do in the future to anyone that disagrees with them, and start planning to remove them as soon as possible? Nope. It has to be those in a stronger position to placate the weaker ones for some reason.
Where does it say there is no back up maps? The fact that if each khan had but a part, that would have been a real issue trying to head back to the IS, when clan Wolverine would have taken their part with them, or destroyed it. And they did find their way to the IS, so something is wrong here.
Now the fact that each clan had their own route to the IS, that they put stop in so they could move things back and forth. I don't remember seeing anything saying they had multiple routs in their care, nor did I see anything about each clan having the same section for each station. Overlap is more likely, as distances to each star is different. So one route might have a section that is 40 light years, but someone having a more direct route might have a section 50 light years.
But the idea that each clan had a part of the map and no full maps were kept is bs. They could NOT remove all information from the entire clan populace. It is most likely someone in the Kerensky Cluster kept one, so if they had to head out because of the civil war.
Script writers in the movie industry are great writers? No wonder you have so many issue understanding things, and that is your own words.
No one cares if it was a blue bird, or red robin the tweeted outside in the lush green gardens of Babylon. Only so many words fit into the paperback novels that most want to hear how the hero escapes, not the actual scenery of the sewer pipe, unless it is important. Was the darkness black? Umber? Midnight blue?
He who lives by others words is a moron, as he will be given things to make them look like an idiot. BS Master Donkey Puck.
An education is to teach someone how to do something. An open society will have multiple ways of doing so. A closed society will tell you this is the way and punish you if you do it another. It is not done so you can discern things objectively. You get taught fire burns, so don't put your hand in there. What objectivity is there? Burn your hand be doing so, which isn't objectivity, but learning that the person was correct in telling you, fire burns.
You just said that societies burn books meaning they are burning records of what happened. How can you unbury it if it is pure ashes? The truth is hard to keep, as someone will always try to change it. Much like the battletech story. Paraphrasing as well as the inability to translate information properly changes the 'truth'. Leaving out a paragraph with each new printed book changes history. The only way to keep the truthful history is to put it where no one can reach it and change or destroy it.
Get real. New worlds and ideas aren't the issue. It is continually saying that the canon is wrong because it doesn't fit with someones vision. More then a few games create new worlds, as the old one fills up, and there needs to be new places for the story to continue. The new worlds do not say negate history of all the others ones because it isn't liked. If this was true, then more then a few entities would have erased horrible deeds done by them.
Maybe the concept of writing the back grounds when the story is released, and not years afterwards could be the key to something being more successful. But no. It has to be the fact that it doesn't fit with what is wanted.
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Requiem
09/04/20 06:34 AM
1.158.133.26
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Nope. It has to be those in a stronger position to placate the weaker ones for some reason.
The Clans are a divided society that has resulted in a permanent Warden and Crusader factions.
Since time immemorial power has been the key note and not the ethical / rightful use of a WMD – as this is quite immaterial.
The result of this fragmentation is noted in the Clan Council’s Political alignment, the member’s numbers to one side or the other with regards to the Clan Council and the warriors as a whole. Embarrass the Crusaders and the Wardens ability to control the Council increases and their power also increases … and the ability to enact their policies is also increased.
This is the only reason the Crusaders were sufficiently embarrassed sufficiently to remove the Galaxy Commander – political failure would not be tolerated.
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Where does it say there is no back up maps?
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the idea that each clan had a part of the map and no full maps were kept is bs.
Try re-reading Exodus Road.
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Overlap is more likely, as distances to each star is different. So one route might have a section that is 40 light years, but someone having a more direct route might have a section 50 light years.
Except for the except from Exodus Road ….”To prevent the Inner Sphere forces to discover the road, the road was divided into several stages. Any ship that traveled the route had to erase its navigational data before the next part of the journey as a security measure. The Clans established HPG stations between both end points, to keep a direct communication. These stations also were responsible of unloading the parts of the Road to the ships who travelled the route …”
Ie. there was but one highway there and back …..
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They could NOT remove all information from the entire clan populace. It is most likely someone in the Kerensky Cluster kept one, so if they had to head out because of the civil war.
Cannon fact …. One map, can anyone see Nicholas letting there be any other maps out there and allowing his “subjects” a chance at escaping as the Wolverines did?
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script writers in the movie industry are great writers?
Quentin Tarantino
Francis Ford Coppola
Woody Allen
Oliver Stone
George Lucas
Stanley Kubrick
Akira Kurosawa
James Cameron
Mel Brooks
Monty Python Team
John Huston
Horton Foote
Thomas Heggen
Try again ….
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No one cares if it was a blue bird, or red robin the tweeted outside in the lush green gardens of Babylon.
Really? Emblematic representation within a story and especially for poetry - Cummings’ has an example that should have been discussed in school but probably never made it that far due to what was being discussed …..
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He who lives by others words is a moron, as he will be given things to make them look like an idiot.
“Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world”
Nelson Mandela
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/04/20 12:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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When rioting broke out following Hohiro Kurita's escape, Clan Smoke Jaguar dispatched a number of vehicles to control the violence, using Indra Infantry Transports to attempt to intimidate the population into submission,
So there were no clan vehicles seen in the invasion? Under the Turtle Bay Massacre entry this statement is at.
In the aftermath the Smoke Jaguars would fight their own people, Perez was challenged and lost his command to Dietr Osis. This does not sound like they replaced the Sabre Cat from his position thru normal political channels. He lost a challenge for his position.
Another interesting fact about Turtle Bay. While that attack did put an end to the rebellion, it ironically also made the Jaguars lose the planet: after that atrocity. This would cause all of the planet's residents to become hostile against the Jaguars, knowing they would die if a Jaguar decided so. For this, the Jaguars simply declared the planet pacified and refused to let a garrison remain there.
There have been so many times a novel said something, and it wasn't true.
To prevent the Inner Sphere forces to discover the road, the road was divided into several stages. Any ship that traveled the route had to erase its navigational data before the next part of the journey as a security measure. Hmm. Looks like the reason why the Road was not entirely available was due to the clans not wanting the IS to seize it all at once. It was not broken up to keep the clans from using it. This is under the Exodus Road entry in the wiki here.
No full route between the Inner Sphere and the Clan homeworlds has ever been made public but certain systems along the route(s) can be identified.
What do you know. Multiple routes to the clans home worlds. It is at the bottom of the wiki page.
Guess reading the print, and not putting in your own comprehensive words needs to stop. It has been incorrect for more then a few times in just the last 3 posts.
Most don't want poetry in the middle of a sci fi action book. Some description is needed, as well as some back ground. But the entire information of a world is just not needed. Information important to the story is given. The coordinates of the system isn't really needed to move the story along as well as magnetic axis, unless it is used for something, like hiding a ship in the area. And even then, a simple statement takes care of that.
Education only works when people ACTUALLY know and use it. Otherwise, it is nothing but hot air. And yet the education being given may be inaccurate or down right wrong. The entire closed society tends to be a very big example of this. And then you have those that twist it to fit their visions. Again. Most closed societies tend to do this as well.
Interpretation of the law is how a lot of people get out of being punished for committing crimes.
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Requiem
09/04/20 05:41 PM
1.158.133.26
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The Clans
A dystopian nightmare of a society established by a willful and hate-ridden child in order to get back at their absentee father … and allowed by former ‘cowered’ SLDF officers who should have known better …. But, who have ‘sipped’ from the cup of power and have become intoxicated …..
Like all politics the clans fall to their own flaws established at the time of their creation and allowed to fester …..
Politicians, such as the Clan hierarchy, play the old game of power from the dark ages, and have forgotten the true meaning of their duty.
The game (in my opinion) has been belittled by their existence (as is) someone really should have explained what was created and why it should never have been allowed to remain.
The die is cast and all shall know the truth when it comes be known! In the fullness of time when wisdom prevails and ignorance and vanity are swept aside by shadow of the PC ….
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……using Indra Infantry Transports to attempt to intimidate the population into submission. So there were no clan vehicles seen in the invasion?
Ghostrider, do you ever undertake research / read the article before making statements?
Indra Infantry Transport – production year 2842
Operation Exodus – 2784
They are DC IS made vehicles that the Clans had appropriated ….. though the question has to be asked as to whom operated the IS craft as it would have been a blot on their service record to utilize the weapons of the IS barbarians …… especially for a Smoke Jaguar Warrior!
So once more there are cracks in the game that make no sense when compared to the established clan society rules …..
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Perez was challenged and lost his command to Dietr Osis.
So? Cordera Perez had become an embarrassment and was seen by his peers as weak for giving into his emotions, so he was challenged …..
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the Jaguars simply declared the planet pacified and refused to let a garrison remain there.
At which time the DCMS could have just walked in and re-taken the world …..
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There have been so many times a novel said something, and it wasn't true.
The appointment of an editor would have improved things ……
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What do you know. Multiple routes to the clans home worlds. It is at the bottom of the wiki page.
The section entitled Other Rotes? Did you bother to read these entries?
The title is a misnomer as the entries at hand – perhaps other historical points of note would have been better …
Pivot – is the first planet from which sailors can see the pentagon system and is in the Exodus Road
Caliban Nebula – is just a generic description between the original exodus route and that of the Invasion route.
Gamma entries – are uninhabited periphery systems along the Exodus Road ….
12901 – used as a stopover by Clan Wolverine (and note there are two 1290 entries here)
1301 – used as a stopover by Nicholas in pursuit of Wolverine between 32 to 35 Jumps from Clan space
So only points of note due to their historical references …..
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Most don't want poetry in the middle of a sci fi action book.
Warriors have been writing poetry for a very long time …. Consider reading WW1 –there are many great poets of this time – Manfred Von Richthofen’s (The Red Barron) is on particular note …..
In rounding out characters providing them with knowledge as to literature would have been a definite plus …..
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Education only works when people ACTUALLY know and use it
Really? Again what happens when a person from a closed society is provided information from an open society ….. again a complete lack of understanding as to the wider social dynamics ……
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Interpretation of the law is how a lot of people get out of being punished for committing crimes.
Not in my experiences …. The law is far more than this ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/04/20 10:00 PM
66.74.60.165
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The members of the scientist caste who engineered the Indra tried to keep its motive systems safe by using HarJel to repair small tears in the tires. Though this is ineffective against most anti-vehicle weapons, it keeps the tires inflated against the hazards of the road.
Wow It's a clan vehicle, not taken from an IS entity. Guess that means someone didn't check to make sure the IS didn't have any before saying the confiscated it from the DC.
And it was under clan vehicles in the 3060 tro on pages 46/47.
In the movement up, people challenge others for their position. Not saying it is impossible for the person to gain backing to do so, but the Sabre Cat captain was NOT removed from someone saying you no longer had a job. It was done in clan fashion. Big difference.
Also, there is nothing said about the act being set up by politics.
The DC could not retake the world as they did not have the resources to keep it. As if fell further and further behind the enemies lines, it became unachievable to do so. When the Jaguars were removed, then they could do something.
The concept of someone believing things told to them about an open society only works when it is only recently that someone has been put into the closed society. Once indoctrinated, those in the closed society stop believing what they consider as a farytale. Something told to you in order to get you to risk yourself doing something illegal.
A lack of understanding does seem to be where your responses are coming from. So many are graduating that don't even know basic math, or completely ignore what they were taught that are in society now, that trying to get things done is getting harder and harder. These are the people that are easy to manipulate as alls you have to do is compliment them, or agree with them. Your Psycological degree does nothing in the world of physics. Oh yeah. Not actually knowing the educational material for physics means not being able to use it properly...
How do you think all the rich get out of paying their share of taxes? The law goes something like, trying to make a reasonable profit.
In business, there is no try to. Either you do or you don't. And the reasonable word is where most get into avoiding them. Reasonable for me is making 100k. For others, 100 mil isn't reasonable.
I know Australia isn't the far off from the world wide issues. The person that didn't bother with the fires and not being charged with several crimes is a good case.
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Requiem
09/05/20 11:34 AM
1.158.133.26
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Wow It's a clan vehicle, not taken from an IS entity.
Yes I will admit that.
However did you notice the real issue? – TPTB are modifying historical records – Forum: Turtle Bay Massacre is now re-directed to Forum: Battle of Turtle Bay…
Clan vehicles are now included into the Invasion whereas before they never were included (hence the mistake)
And on top of that we now have new people and mercenary units that never existed before …..
One can only wonder how far this amended history will go ….
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Big difference. Also, there is nothing said about the act being set up by politics.
Except if you can comprehend what is going on ….
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The DC could not retake the world as they did not have the resources to keep it.
And yet what percentage of the DCMS force was utilized against the Clans and if it coule be done with Wolcott why not Turtle Bay.
This statement only holds true if you believe in the Status Quo – for the rest of us it is just something to laugh at ….
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Once indoctrinated, those in the closed society stop believing what they consider as a fairytale.
How has that worked for the majority of closed societies around the world – just look at the number of defections and at the same time look at the statistics for Black Market activities within a closed society ….
It is not full proof …. There is always the minority who jump the fence and when they do they empower others to follow them ….
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So many are graduating that don't even know basic math, or completely ignore what they were taught that are in society now, that trying to get things done is getting harder and harder.
And the Ivy league Universities and how about the state Universities …. Yes there may be some that are given a pass for one reason or another – but for ever one of them how many actually get a Degree and know what they are doing ?
There is no absolute with education and the people within …..
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Your Psycological degree does nothing in the world of physics.
Except for the fact that I can read and comprehend what is being discussed ….. and I can always ask for assistance when I do not understand – thus I can be educated on the topic ….. and from there I can discuss the salient principles …..
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Taxation Law
Work in progress …. And is far more complicated ….
Social Responsibility
R&D
Economic responsibilities – inflationary issues, growth issues
Realignment of the economy due to unemployment numbers
In a perfect world we could have everything but we are not and people always want to tinker with tax for one reason or another …. And in so doing increase / decrease the number of holes
And no it is not you do or you don’t – this is why people work for charities, not-for-profits, social / environmental groups …..
The same could be said for the IS ……..
So it looks like I am getting my re-write to a limited extent ….. I just wonder how far it is going to go …..how many holes are TPTB going to close with their re-write …. Problem is they are now going to have to explain a lot more and in a lot more detail …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/05/20 11:35 AM)
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ghostrider
09/05/20 12:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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The retcon issue is why the 'history' does not have continuity or stability for that thought. I want to say there was at least one story about the clans using vehicles, that was put out during the clan invasion, but don't remember where it was at. Well, besides the normal ammo haulers, and riding jeeps.
Turtle Bay is further behind the front lines then Wolcott. And as much as it can be considered stupid, the DC didn't seem ready to use it to strike that deeply behind Jaguar lines. But then the whole story of them just leaving the planet without a garrison seems to be yet another retcon itself.
And one fact that seemed to be ignored, is that the entire IS should have been fired up from this. The easy advance of the clans should have met with far more resistance, as well as more intense resistance.
If you dropped onto a world that has been a closed society for a couple of generations, and said there is another way of doing things, how many would jump up and say 'show me'? The majority would think you are lying. Yes. There will always be some so desperate, that they will 'believe' you. They are probably at the end of their rope and would rather die then continue on. So they would take the chance. But if someone from a nation you are taught to hate outright, the chance of finding anyone would drop even more.
There are more stories in the news about the top end collages having bribes paid to get children in, and those ones are not up to par with the rest of them. So even the top education facilities are putting out the uneducated, or not caring people. But for the general populations, it is far worse. Most have to be sent to the next grade after so long. It is even worse, as parents sue the school system if they don't. Most of the parents would say their child is being discriminated against.
You do realize that most of the conversation for the alt stems from the simple statement of 'I don't understand'? When you get told what canon did and why, you said it wasn't possible and it was wrong. Since then, the responses have supported the statement of not understanding the storyline. It is riddled with issues, but for the games background, it is correct.
But the statement still stands. Knowing little to nothing about physics, a psycology degree does nothing to help understand quantum realities or even the principles behind particle acceleration.
Most companies support charities as a tax deduction. A few make them to gain more money by being CEO, and donating to themselves for the tax dodge, as well as making more off other people supporting the charity. It really is screwed up, but is happening more and more. Right now, there are certain people trying to rewrite the laws in a nation, that remove taxes from the rich and super rich, claiming it will help with getting more jobs for the masses. It won't as most are sending those jobs out of the nation, and running the country deeper in debt.
The retcons are trying to deal with issues they had in the past, but most don't really do much but put a nice paint job on a house over a sink hole. There is no real supporting base.
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Requiem
09/06/20 04:18 AM
1.158.133.26
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why the 'history' does not have continuity or stability for that thought.
Revisionist history occurs for a multiple of reasons – in this case, in all probability, the ‘improvement’ of history is occurring for a couple of reasons:-
Financial – improve the narrative thus increase the number of participants which increases profitability;
Technical – fix many of the black holes that exist;
Inclusive / strategic – increase the Clans arsenal there by undermining the issue the game is completely rigged when they refused to allow the IS access to all conventional weapon systems – which in all case should have decimated the entire clan’s invasion just through the fact that they are incapable of fighting via an attrition battle strategy.
Problem is no matter what revisionist issues are brought in there are just a few subjects that are so massively egregious that only a complete rewrite will be required to fix as it is quite clear the story, as is, just does not make the grade. (In My Opinion!)
But the fact does not change – the Clans invasion story appears to be undergoing a re-write from what is written within the Turtle Bay Forum!
Thus do we now need to purchase a complete set of new books as to the invasion or is there going to be an overarching forum that will explain all the additions in one forum - as attempting to find them all scattered throughout all the forum pages would be a serious pain ….
So the question is who was driving the Clan Vehicles on Turtle Bay and why were they not using either their Mechs or Elemental Armor? Or are we going to get a new branch of the military invading with the Clan Military – perhaps their Military Police as Garrison Troops? But then this brings up the issue as to why you a gre giving failed warriors weapons?
Also there are no old Invasion information that allowed the Clans Vehicles – it is only now with the re-write they are allowed them ….. Problem is none of the Clans has a police force large enough to garrison a single world as Rasalhague with a population of 5 Billion people!
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Turtle Bay is further behind the front lines then Wolcott. And as much as it can be considered stupid, the DC didn't seem ready to use it to strike that deeply behind Jaguar lines.
Thus proving the point that the invasion, as written, was a complete sham (In My Opinion)
This has, throughout the history of warfare, been one of the primary strategies when it comes to fighting a superior military force – go after their supply network – take them out and see how long their forces survive on the front line.
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And one fact that seemed to be ignored, is that the entire IS should have been fired up from this.
Kentares Massacre and the revival of the FS military? …… forget their-own history?
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The easy advance of the clans should have met with far more resistance, as well as more intense resistance.
And yet whenever I pitched this idea it was shouted down again and again ….. and by who?
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If you dropped onto a world that has been a closed society for a couple of generations, and said there is another way of doing things, how many would jump up and say 'show me'?
Problem is there are three such regimes / examples of this in modern history and how did their populations consider the influx of information?
Especially when you consider Rock music and the fall of Communism ….. Queen, The Rolling Stones, David Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, Ozzy Osborne …..
Remember it was not all about dry books, booze and cigarettes …..
The simple fact is the Clans sociology is predominately freeborn working class and someone really dropped the ball when it comes to materialism and the 20 something (even behind the iron curtain) ….
Thus the extrapolation of this, over to the Clans, was really mismanaged (in my opinion – once more!)
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So they would take the chance. But if someone from a nation you are taught to hate outright, the chance of finding anyone would drop even more.
Still not an absolutism …. They may be rare but even North Korea still has defectors.
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There are more stories in the news about the top end collages having bribes paid to get children in
First – any parent will do anything to give their child a better life.
Second – what percentage does this represent to the total number of children who got in through their own hard work? 0.00001% …. The idea of materiality needs to be considered.
Third – how is Affirmative Action working?
Fourth – ethics and the modern social dilemma … how is that currently working?
The issues are vast and have so many sides to them that it is almost impossible to come to a result that everyone will agree to, all you can do is your best.
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You do realize that most of the conversation for the alt stems from the simple statement of 'I don't understand'? When you get told what canon did and why, you said it wasn't possible and it was wrong. Since then, the responses have supported the statement of not understanding the storyline. It is riddled with issues, but for the games background, it is correct.
Consider modern ….
Politics;
Military Strategies;
Economics – comparative advantages as well as geopolitics;
Sociology;
Psychology and psy-ops;
Logistics and modern chain theory;
Mass manufacturing and engineering and the concept of re-engineering and value adding;
Historical imperatives that have shaped modern thought; etc.
The application of many of the underpinning theorems within the Battletech universe indicates a vast disparity as to what is written currently and what could be considers to be a late ‘1800’s Boys own adventure book.’
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the principles behind particle acceleration.
Problem is how many introductory lecture courses are now available on the net in regards to this subject – one google and I hit a couple – especially when they are designed for first year university science - thus time and intellect enable people to learn and understand …. Even they laymen can learn ….
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There is no real supporting base.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction ….
For every action …..Clan Vehicles within the first wave of the Invasion ….
There is an equal reaction ….. who was piloting them, which unit were they attached to, on which drop-ships were they assigned (as remember there was supposed to be a limited number of Drop-ships / Jump-ships)
And if the number of Drop-ships or Jump-ships are not correspondingly increased this in turn means that the number of Omni-Mechs within the Invasion Toumans must also be correspondingly decrease by the same proportionate amount as the increase in Clan Vehicles.
And if the number of Drop-ships and Jump-ships do increase – this just gets very interesting as the entire initial bids for all the Clans has now been exorcised and replaced with who knows what, and thus in turn the complete invasion on its head, which will necessitate a complete re-write as the game has now completely been changed to something else … and if it is not then it is just cheating to such a scale that will not be tolerated (again in my humble opinion!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/06/20 12:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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Even without using the high grade clan tech, why didn't the IS start making the lighter, less crit normal weapons? I agree the high grade tech should have been used, the normal weapons did have upgrade that should have been put in place.
As for the clans being favored, that is something only you have suggested. I think the clans succeeded more because of the piranha effect, and the fact they had the better weapons and warriors. Except for other clans, they didn't really have much competition to stop them at first. The IS factions prevented the extermination of them, as it should have. And yes, the factions. All the little and even big problems with people trying to seize control, like Ryan did before his death.
The entire history of the houses has been changed, so yes. You will need to buy a new set of books to get up to date on what is going on. And they will change them too, once more of the story is 'fixed'. Depending on how much is changed, and if they fix all the issues, it may be worth getting them, but I think they will probably do it in stages, in order to make more money that way.
Rasalhague is an oddity. Once the Wolves took it, they kept the leader in position, and they are keeping the peace there. So that example is actually the answer to part of the numbers issue. And not sure if the prince has issued orders for the people to remain calm or not. Even though he is now just a warrior in the wolves, he is still considered the crown prince.
I was against the massed military movements because of a lack of ships, the need for troops to protect worlds, and the clans should have been able to blow them out of the sky as well as take the jumpships. With saying the should have faced fiercer resistance means those units that did fight them, would not have given up as soon as they did. It should have also had those factions trying to take power, deciding to help remove the clans, as they would eventually have to give up any gains if the clans reached them.
Using our world still neglects the fact that the clans were isolated with no outside influences to even motivate them. But again, this is the initial invasion. Once those behind the clan lines seen what was happening and possible, they would have started the push for change. This is why the home clans made the push to stay out of the IS. They knew their way of life was doomed if they kept contact.
As for our world, there is always broadcasts, and such that can reach those on the border and even deep inside. No matter how hard they try, they can not keep out foreign broadcasts or even smugglers bringing in examples. This could not happen with the clans until the IS learned of them and the way to get to them.
Also, as said before, the power of plenty did affect the clans. It caused the war of home/IS clans, as well as changed how the IS clans worked. They went from their strict military set up, to becoming kings of sorts. So the power of plenty worked, just not the way you wanted it to.
Absolutism with the statement of any parent will do anything for their children to have a better life. This statement is far from being true. There are more then a few that the parents don't give a damn about their children's lives, beyond listening to the parents. And most would do what they can, but not give anything to reach that goal.
The U.S is having major issues with affirmative action and ethics in the government, so this is where the concept you are trying to make goes to the toilet.
I don't think the developers were thinking the game would be around long enough for their back story to evolve into something that was more then just the SL existed, went into a civil war, and died leaving the states to fight it out. I agree there is a lot of things that is wrong, but the story is that of the people who made the game. So it is correct for their vision of the game. It is the story they say happened.
There are a large set of people that will not understand how to move a neutron, as it is a neutrally charged particle. Even with it written out and shown how, they still will not understand it. This is not true with a lot of people. Just depends on their back ground information.
As it says in the books. Most of the clans shun using vehicles, but they all use some. The 3060 TRO explains this in the first page of the clan vehicles. They realized they needed something more to garrison their worlds, and mechs were considered to be too elite to be tied down to such. So they turned to vehicles and upgraded them. This is a paraphrase of what is written, so don't say it isn't exact. I know it isn't.
But the fact that they were used even in the most reluctant clans, is the key here.
The Anshur specifically states it was used in 3054 against Archer's unit. I didn't reread the entire section as I do have other things to get to at this point.
The not supporting base was in reference to the rest of that paragraph. It means that no matter how pretty the house is on the sink hole, there is nothing really supporting the house. The sink hole will take it sooner or later.
Now to answer the statements following that. The clans did increase the number of ships they used, but they were NOT used for the assaults, as per the agreements. They were moving the garrison units. Just as the initial ships were NOT used to ferry supplies back and forth, as it would remove them from use as assault transports as they did so. And the bids allow replacements of forces to keep up the units strengths. So if you wipe out a dropship before it could deploy the troops it had, the entire unit would be replaced without being considered against the bid.
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Requiem
09/06/20 06:38 PM
1.158.133.26
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Even without using the high grade clan tech, why didn't the IS start making the lighter, less crit normal weapons?
Once more, just like so many more, a point of contention that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever other than to turn the game on its head and purposefully keep the IS in the dark with regards to weapons technology – with the sole purpose of keeping the Clans within a position of technological superiority.
In other words – Cheating in favor of the Clans (in my opinion).
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As for the clans being favored, that is something only you have suggested.
Suggest, you should communicate with more people ….
Please explain
Given the Clans Sibko’s graduating class numbers …. As well as being 6 months distant from the front lines
Please explain the entire Clans Invasion Loss Depletion Report;
Please explain how the Clan’s maintained their Logistics for the entire invasion – given their tyranny of distance from the Clan Home Worlds;
Please do explain how the Clans are able to garrison and pacify so many captured worlds – especially those like Rasalhage that have a population of 5 billion – which in all realty would have required a pacification infantry force in the Hundreds of Thousands to effectively garrison;
Please do explain why the clans and their freeborn appear to be immune to psychology when coming from a closed society to an open one – and how we only ever see one defection in the entire invasion;
Please do explain how Clan Warriors – when confronted with undeniable proof as to what the SLDF stood for many of them did not question who the Clans had become in the future (Psy-ops – and deprogramming a Cult member etc);
Please explain the IS response to not assisting the FRR during the invasion;
Please explain why the FC only used 8% of their available forces against the Clans during the entire invasion – especially when individuals such as Hanse, Morgan, Justin, Jamie, Quintis, Theodore and Takashi are still alive and in full capability of their minds – given past performances on the Battlefield;
Please explain why the IS forces were utilizing outdated tactics throughout the entire invasion (especially post Dragoon Conference - Wolcott and Twycross);
Please explain why the majority of the invasion all IS vehicles were never include within any of the battles – just Mech on Mech;
Please explain Huntress and the destruction of all military industrial capabilities plant and equipment - why would any House unit obey a Mercenary Commander in regards to this order when the stakes are so high?;
Please explain post Falcon / Wolf War and no one from the IS attempts to take them out
Please explain the post Reaving that returns them back to 100% fighting capacity in a manner that is in a quite un-Clan like manner; and
Please do explain also the IS’s inability to reverse engineer Clan Tech or produce new weapons such as an anti elemental (Toad) rifle – an inability to assign their current infantry with SRMs and Inferno Rounds) etc …..
Please do explain why they is such a limited number of IS Omnis when their development increases productivity, repair-ability (spare parts etc) and strategic acumen on the battlefield;
And this is just the tip of the please explains I can drill down to that make no sense at all within the Clan invasion …. Other than to say the whole thing was suspect from the get go ….
Sorry to say but there is a very good argument (in mine and others opinion) that TPTB manipulated the entire invasion – rather than creating a war that makes some sought of logical sense – allows the IS forces to actually be IS forces under the command of people like Morgan, Hanse, Theodore and Takashi– what we got was a canned and manipulated invasion with absolutely no follow-through based upon previous historical information and character development and military engineering development …..
In other worlds it is a real sham of an invasion ….. none of it can be considered to be of any real worth ….. it just lacks credibility ….
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Except for other clans, they didn't really have much competition to stop them at first.
Except for the fact that the Clans replacement personnel numbers from a sibko training unit are ridiculously small – their logistics are a joke (tyranny of distance) – and the IS was never allowed to use attrition warfare tactics as well as SOE / partisan fighting to their fullest; as well as reverse engineering their complete technology; as well as undermining their Cult like status with regards to their freeborn (Garrisons and Technicians / support personnel); The IS were never allowed to fight the Clans Logistics ships …. Etc etc
Which again demonstrates the sham of an invasion ….
The Canon version of the War is little more than a very badly written and extremely boring joke! (again in my opinion) The battles are repetitive and lack any kind of fun when the IS are only allowed to win such small number of battles throughout the Invasion …. Did no one ever realize that it is never any fun to be constantly on the loosing side and you are never allowed to upgrade unless you can get any battlefield salvage?
This is why I champion the view that gamers should create their own version of the invasion and put some life back into the game’s story, whatever happened to parity within the game as to weapons etc in order to keep the game interesting (warships are a good example – they are the biggest gun on the battlefield and yet nothing – not one response from the IS forces. What the???????? ) ….. I have thus provided many different and fascinating side stories for a unit to get involved with (if they want to go down this track) – with just a little more thought the invasion could have been so much more – however from all appearances it was incredibly rushed into production with little to no editing / alpha and beta testing ……..
I am just horribly disappointed with the Canon writing ……
New Books – Oh how I look forward to a complete revisionist history.
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Rasalhague is an oddity. Once the Wolves took it, they kept the leader in position, and they are keeping the peace there.
WW2 – France and all the occupied countries – look at the garrison numbers / secret police etc
Sorry but the information as supplied just does not make any sense - none of the Clans have the cultural abiliy to maintain a Vichy government – their culture is just too alien for an IS government to accept them – the first time they try to impose a Caste system / remove peoples last names / remove children from their families the entire world will turn on them …..
Again more, pitiful plot development by ignoring the issues of their own devisement ….. no ability to think through all the issues …..
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Even though he is now just a warrior in the wolves, he is still considered the crown prince.
Except for the fact he was made a bondsman two years AFTER Rasalhague fell …..
Consider the size of the NYPD to the population of New York …. Sorry but this just does not work the Clans DO NOT have the ability to garrison highly populated worlds – their military is just not that sophisticated / numerous to maintain such a garrison …..
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I was against the massed military movements because of a lack of ships,
Problem is when you compare the Clan Invasion War to that of the 4th Succession War - the idea of a lack of ships evaporates to nothing …. The ships are there …..
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the need for troops to protect worlds
Who do you fear the most? Your neighbors or the Clans? Plus the PF has close to 300 regiments - just put half that amount on the front lines – attrition warfare and see how far the clans get!
So again that point is completely irrelevant!
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Once those behind the clan lines seen what was happening and possible, they would have started the push for change.
Problem with this is their own society rules prohibit them from any “push for change” the Clans are just too hide bound to allow any change!
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No matter how hard they try, they can not keep out foreign broadcasts or even smugglers bringing in examples. This could not happen with the clans until the IS learned of them and the way to get to them.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans
some observers believe that consumerism will soon spread into Clan society and bring about its downfall from within
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They went from their strict military set up, to becoming kings of sorts. So the power of plenty worked, just not the way you wanted it to.
Don’t think so – they are still khans – the king angle can only be considered in the 3150’s
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I don't think the developers were thinking the game would be around long enough for their back story to evolve into something that was more then just the SL existed
When is long enough – the ten year, twenty year or forty year mark – at a point this becomes ridiculous …..
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As it says in the books. Most of the clans shun using vehicles, but they all use some.
Problem is not one maid it into the IS’s Oniginal Canon Invasion War …. All that has changed now … and as such the formation of all Bids to Invade the IS must now be re-written …..
- Fleet numbers must be rewritten – unit compositions must be re-written or new units must now be included etc
Thus the entire war must change with it ….
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So if you wipe out a dropship before it could deploy the troops it had, the entire unit would be replaced without being considered against the bid.
Problem – is that ship and its crew + the Mechs / Vehicles / Elementals / Fighters available in the Clan Home worlds considering the percentage taken on the invasion in comparison the amount remaining on the home world – then there is the issue of “tyranny of distance” – it will take 6 months to get to the front line + the time to get ther crew and the warriors / and their equipment available, and are there any ships even available to be sent at a moments’ notice or should it wait until a complete cargo manifest has been assembled so as to not waste the transport of just one ship and one dropship …. A very un-clan like thing to do …. Waste …..
So agin theu could take some time to replace the dropship and crew and everything that was in it ….. something that the game completely ignored from beginning to end ….
Still not impressed …….. you create the rules / problems then just ignore them because they are just all too hard ….. great way to keep people interested and exited and not cause mass friction with them!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/06/20 09:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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TPTB did what most game producers did. Came out with weapons too powerful, and when the 'heroes' get them, it prevents the next set of enemies from being a threat. They realized that if the IS had clan tech weapons, the next threat, IE WOB, would have been unable to do much as the IS would have weapons equal to or superior to some of WOBs stuff. This would mean a huge number of units would be needed, and WOB just did not have that. So to prevent the threat from being very minor, even with nukes, they had to make sure the houses didn't have the higher tech weapons. This is probably why the stopped producing warships as well for the WOB fight.
Now to stop the whole replacement complaint. As there is NO information on just how many, or if any, warriors the clans lost outside of the novels and story that was told, the numbers lost may well have been so small, they were easily able to replace their losses with other units. It would continue to go along the BS line, as there would be death losses. Even with the superior ranges. Getting into IS firing ranges would produce the occasional head shot with a heavy weapon, or multiple head shots. This would also be ignoring the thru armor shots, that could well take out the mechs engine/gyro. The fall may finish killing the warrior, or at least get them out of the cockpit to be killed then.
There is the major issue of the elementals, as they are supposed to die when the full armor and life points are destroyed. So replacing them would be more of an issue then the mech warriors.
As there is no information on if the clans increased the sibkos, lowered some of the requirements, or just took them from other clans, there is no real way to say if the replacement issues were there or not. Might be the reason why there is no such data put out.
I have tried to answer most of the questions and was told that can't happen. It was done because the developers wanted it that way. Wether it makes sense or not, that is how the story they put out goes. I could say magic is why, but I know that isn't correct. But in the end, the story the developers put out is correct for their game. It can not be wrong as it is their game they made. Buying the rights to use it, is not OWNING it. And that is what you did. Buy the right to use their product.
Making their own concepts is one thing. Saying because of those concepts, the canon version is wrong is another. A point that seems to be missed constantly.
Again. Our history of real life, does not have the same effect in the game. The planetary capital seems to be what determines if the planet surrenders or keeps fighting. It seems that the majority of the planet goes into surrender mode. Even without an invading enemy, you will always have some that actively resists anyone but them being in charge. The game does cover that with the PGCs having issues tracking down those people. A gloss over, but it is something to explain it.
Where is the numbers of ships during the invasion? The numbers were there, but yet no printed information on that. I do agree there should be more ships then in 3025, but how many, and how many actually survive the encounters with the clans is a whole different issue. In all the novels, most dropships that face the clans died. And we know the clans destroyed jumpships, if they didn't take them. So unless you have a massive assault fleet, you would be more likely to waste the ships using them as normal. Hence, not enough ships.
You fear all enemies, as it would still destroy you to stop the clans, yet lose your bases to the CC/FWL or even pirates. So no. You can not leave those worlds without protection. As stated in the books, the intel departments weren't sure if this was just someone found a huge SL base and decided to use it, or something else. It turned out to be something else. But they were looking for the weak links to strike back. Thanks to Comstar, that took far longer then it should have.
Not reading the context yet again. Keeping out coms was about nations on the world TODAY. And as said before, the clans were corrupted by the power of plenty. It just did not work the way you envisioned.
Also the end of that statement needs to be read. Until after the IS found their worlds.. That means until they know where to go, they can't just put a ship in a system and broadcast shows.
Ah. What is a khan? A leader of the Mongol tribes. And those were what? Wanna be kings. They only adapted the king title later on in the game. They all wanted their own kingdom to run. Even when in the clans themselves.
The point was to continue making books that kept the wars going. As said before, they seem to have screwed up, trying to fill in the history of the SL and IS in general. Issues before the SL need to have answers before they can even get into the original expansion into the IS. Resources were low, and only a few ship builders could make jumpships. How did the Alliance lose control of who was allowed out? And how could they have expanded so quickly with limited resources on Terra?
The question of how many of these units were sitting on the outskirts of the periphery, ready to take someones place? The Wolves were the only ones that had anything planned for this. But you still miss the one big fact here. The other clans did NOT target large numbers of worlds. That would suggest they did not have the forces to do so. The concept that they should have folded is not correct.
And now you seem to have comprehended what I have said for a while. The rules were not followed when they were making the story line, so it falls apart as more gets put in.
I do think the lawsuit from Harmony killed a lot of their plans. The risk of another lawsuit could well have stopped any better ideas from being used.
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Requiem
09/07/20 05:43 AM
1.158.133.26
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TPTB did what most game producers did. Came out with weapons too powerful, and when the 'heroes' get them, it prevents the next set of enemies from being a threat.
Problem is, this statement is untrue – next generation weapons will need to counter next generation armor etc – there is a variety of ways weapons and armor can be used to reset the game …. It just takes a creative author / game development member ….
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So to prevent the threat from being very minor, even with nukes, they had to make sure the houses didn't have the higher tech weapons. This is probably why the stopped producing warships as well for the WOB fight.
Problem is, warships are a part of the game, so just minimizing their presence in the game is once more minimizing the issue and turning the game into a farce.
Suggest a rewrite of the rules regarding both construction and lethality / range of their weapons is in order - this is a science fiction military game and the navy has always been a contributor to all military warfare. So again I postulate that there should be multiple maps for this game
1. Space from point of entry to planet in question for all naval battles;
2. Atmospheric map for a Dropships entry and aerospace fighter combat;
3. Multitude of ground maps – one planetary size – one for a coupe of hundred kilometers in every direction for deployment of RCT and one for small scale engagements – just remember there needs to be a way of mixing air with land and a way fo represent the altitude of aircraft etc …..
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Now to stop the whole replacement complaint. As there is NO information on just how many, or if any, warriors the clans lost outside of the novels and story that was told, the numbers lost may well have been so small, they were easily able to replace their losses with other units.
This is the point I am making! Read the after action reports of the majority of every battle …..
IS departs the world with a mixed battalion of survivors …etc.
The Clans – not one word as to their dead and wounded – nothing….
With a sibko system of 100 groups you would be lucky to get 300 Replacement per year …. And considering one IS Military academy can put out a couple of thousand graduates per year the disparity between the two systems is incredibly vast – thus even a few dead per battle will have accumulated effects – especially when it takes six months for any replacements to arrive …..
Again in a tournament style Invasion – The Clans need someone to keep track of their numbers – otherwise we could end up with another Cannon version of the Invasion – completely unbelievable!
And yes Elementals are an issue in the game – especially when you give all your infantry Jump and a Hellfire SRM – and when they are provided with a military armor piercing sniper rifle ….
Again when limiting the Clans with a set number, a ridiculously small replacement numbers and add in attrition warfare system how are the clans supposed to win against anything …. The Clans system of warfare is completely unsuited for warfare within the inner sphere!
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As there is no information on if the clans increased the sibkos, lowered some of the requirements, or just took them from other clans, there is no real way to say if the replacement issues were there or not.
Except for the fact that mathematics and the Pryde Sybko information prove the hole idea of the sibko system is a joke!
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I have tried to answer most of the questions and was told that can't happen. It was done because the developers wanted it that way. Whether it makes sense or not, that is how the story they put out goes.
And in so doing they have created a joke of a story which will not stand the test of time and in all probability will cause the game to fall because they do not realize that their customer driven target market’s dynamics has dramatically changed – though they will have fun when they jump to Warhammer and either the Tau or the Eldar I guess, as they know how to amend the game to meet new target market dynamics (have you looked at all their new dynamics within the game lately? – each identifying a new target market) and their inventory is vastly superior! So either get to work asap or fold!
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the story the developers put out is correct for their game
Ha ha ha ha …good joke….oh, your serious?
Jihad and everything thereafter is a joke of a story ….. The Clans’ Invasion at least has a chance at redemption ….
It is a fact that every business must constantly re-evaluate their target market – when was the last time a value proposition canvas was considered?
This game is not TPTB driven to produce sales – it is understanding your client and fulfilling their needs driven – so unless it is fixed their sales will shrink even further as the competition is supplying the target market with what they want!
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Even without an invading enemy, you will always have some that actively resists anyone but them being in charge. The game does cover that with the PGCs having issues tracking down those people. A gloss over, but it is something to explain it.
Problem is the PGCs are incredibly small and not very well equipped as their primary duty back on the Clan Home worlds was to Clean up the Circle of equals after the True born finished fighting. 3050 Jade Falcon – only had 2 IS Regiments worth of PGCs – so can anyone explain how this is going to help with anything?
Again they wrote the game and the mathematics of the game does not correlate with the story – it is just a complete joke!
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Where is the numbers of ships during the invasion? The numbers were there, but yet no printed information on that.
The Clans numbers are provided!
Then loot at the number of Units that started the 4th Succession War within the Atlas – this can be considered the minimum amount that can be dispatched during the initial period for the Clan Invasion - so YES there is a printed amount that can be used for the IS!
So yes I do have a massive assault fleet that I can send in my 150 FC units to engage the Clans!
Hence yes there are enough ships!
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yet lose your bases to the CC/FWL
First the CC should be destroyed by the time the Clans Invaded ….
And as for the FWL at the time of the Invasion they had 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions (20 year update) – so again the FC could easily put enough forces on their border to keep them in line and still have sufficient forces to take on the Clans
As for pirates – they used to live in the Clan Invasion Corridor – so how many remain?
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Thanks to Comstar, that took far longer then it should have.
Problem is that Hanse would have put a Black Box with every unit so that ComStar could never interfere with them again and also due to their recent shadow war!
Which again shows how much of a Joke the story gets when they do not even comprehend the actions of their own characters!
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they can't just put a ship in a system and broadcast shows.
Why not? It is a completely legitimate tactic – consider Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty ….
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The point was to continue making books that kept the wars going.
And when was the last serious book put out to continue the war - that could be considered worth purchasing? When was the last book put about regarding 3150 onwards that could be considered worth getting …… Jihad and everything after this is not really what I would call a good story ….. so again make your own or give up and go to warhammer.
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The other clans did NOT target large numbers of worlds. That would suggest they did not have the forces to do so.
Taken a look at a Clan Invasion Map lately?
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The concept that they should have folded is not correct.
The point is the game lacks any pathos …. It is the same pitiful battle over and over with no real complexity and fun …. It completely ignores standard Battelfield Tactics as to becoming completely moronic!
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I do think the lawsuit from Harmony killed a lot of their plans.
No in my opinion it was issue with Germany.
And there is no other law suit!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/07/20 02:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is a problem with the advancement of armor and weapons. It is the same one as the warships are showing. If you don't have them yourself, you are at a severe disadvantage when those that do, come knocking.
Soon the game comes to which armor do you have verse which weapon being the only way to survive. One hit kills comes about. Things like neutron or anti matter bombs start showing up, with anti matter being more dangerous then nukes. The SL weapon packages were a step up, but they fell flat of the 'lore' that they were far superior to 3025 weapons. Then clan weapons were that much more dangerous. This also brings up the BS of range.
As I said before. The 'ultimate' weapon becomes an issue when the 'heroes' get them. The ability to threaten the heroes afterwards starts getting stupidly powerful. How many weapons do you really need that can destroy a planet in one shot?
All those maps suggested do exist. Not in one game set or one piece, but you can set it all up. The large planet map is mainly putting together the map sets you get with the game, and probably buying more. If you want them all in one box, that isn't going to happen. Those people that don't play aerotech/battlespace don't want that stuff put in their sets. It takes up room for other things they do like, and play.
But why not have a set up that the ships fight each other around the jump point, then head in?
Technically the game did have another invasion of the clans. When the clans that lost the civil war were looking for a new place to set up.
And the example of the elementals wasn't about their power, but how many were lost in battle. They die quicker then mechs do. And with this, they die, as opposed to the mech warrior surviving their ordeal a lot of the time. So the loss/replacement system show up more with this, then mechs. One way I can see them getting this 'taken' care of is for the khans to say that those that failed in the final trial of position be allowed to fight, but use them to soften up the enemy. They may well have been allowed to become the garrison units as well. Doesn't matter about the stigma of it, when you need the people, you do things that are not popular with the others. Having these warriors do the pitiful guard duty, will prevent the front line from having to do so. And the warriors that did pass, but were relegated to the garrison forces can be used to fill in gaps.
For the clan home world fights before the invasion, the sibko system was actually better then most. They did not have so many casualties resulting in death. Except for the elementals again. It was good to have new warriors coming up, but not so many that you have a problem with too many looking for so few blood name slots. The excess is part of what leads up to the civil wars, as the younger ones get upset about the upward advancement opportunities. Much like the Wolves started to have. For the IS warfare, it was horrible, unless you changed some of the things and even then, if done like the succession wars were, the sibko example would have to have 50% or more in order to just keep level with the losses. That is 5000 per year per clan.
35 years sounds like it is standing the time test. Might not be hugely used among the masses, but even at it's height, I don't think it was that huge. There are issues with the marketing. Getting their stuff together is something that has to be done in order to grow again. The rule issue is the biggest thing that I see. Without it set up and USED all the time, it creates the issues they have now and will always have. Good stories can not be written when the next story in a series changes most of the outcomes because the rules were changed. D&D gets away with it but doing things Battle Tech can't. Things like Forgotten Realms god war. Changing the old magic system by limiting things like Magic Missile. Now a 20th level mage is not a machine gunner.
No matter how good or poor the story is, it is correct for their game. It is the basis people use to avoid overly complicated times of trying to explain house rules. Granted, there has to be more then normal with a few things. But it still is the basis of what happened and how. It is better then not having any information, but wasn't done properly. Then again, at the time it was done, having it all fact checked wasn't a huge deal. People would still play it, even if the Empire jumped on the Borg, and left the Jedi Knights have the Romulans. As more games came out that were not riddled with continuity issues, did it become apparent that this style of writing would not hold up.
I do agree that they seemed to not think large enough, but as said before. The owner of the capital sends out security details, such as the normal police, to deal with most of the issues. The government change is not a huge factor in their concepts. Otherwise, the entire succession wars and the 4th war, could not have held onto more then a couple of worlds max. Not sure if they tried to make the fear of the clans keep them from doing what the worlds that got invaded tended to do.
The numbers of reserve ships that can be used. I don't think the clans had a huge number of dropships in reserve to replace the ones that should have been destroyed.
And again. The 4th war is not the example of how many ships they had. That was gutting the commercial sector of their required ships. In this case, you do not want to destroy your economy trying to stop the clans. It was thought they were not an organized entity, that had deeper reserves then what might be found in an SL castle. The concept of waiting until the enemy over extended then slamming them didn't pan out.
Might need to relook at the map of the IS. Pirates live in all sections of the periphery around the IS. Ignoring the TC and OA, there were more then a few pirate bands in the areas by the FS and DC. They were not as famous as the ones in the clans path, but there. Having the forces pulled out of those areas, would encourge them to strike and others to become pirates themselves, as the amount of forces to stop them would be far to inadequate. This isn't even including the single systems that would try to cede once the main forces left. And there were more then a few of them in the FS. The DC is an oddity, as most would think they would all want to rebel, but it isn't that simple.
How many systems are between the IS and clan homeworlds? Where are they before Trent got the location for them? Those ships were better used for moving troops, then sitting in probable empty systems. This is even riskier then wolfpack hunts.
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Requiem
09/07/20 05:57 PM
1.158.133.26
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If you don't have them yourself, you are at a severe disadvantage
This can be said with all weapons – this is ere a strong air arm and anti ship missiles come in – or there are other weapons that can be used, such as WMDs (If you want to go down that track)
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One hit kills comes about.
First, only if you have not done sufficient beta testing.
Second, head shots still occur now!
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Things like neutron or anti matter bombs start showing up, with anti matter being more dangerous then nukes.
Only if you want to go down that track …. For me I have gotten rid of all WMDs as they really do not work in the game – as for warships this is where you have a mother loving Navy War!
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Then clan weapons were that much more dangerous.
Only because the Beta testing for Clan weapons was a dismal failure – however over time the IS should be allowed to Reverse engineer Clan Tech – thus over time they will be on Par with weapon systems (for the most part) – and this will also include range
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How many weapons do you really need that can destroy a planet in one shot?
The question should be asked as to why you need them?
However, that said, the game already has them ….. WMDs …. How many Worlds were killed off during the Jihad era? Again bad writing equates to bad game …..
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All those maps suggested do exist.
For the cannon game – yes; for me – no, keep tinkering – plus they will be required when TPTB wake up and realize that the idea of proper scanners are required - 3025 Infantry had them out to 100Km so how far should a Mechs’ be out to?
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Those people that don't play aerotech/battlespace don't want that stuff put in their sets. It takes up room for other things they do like, and play.
Then enjoy a 1/4 game – no space, no air, no sea – just land and for those want a complete game its all there!
Why should there only be allowed limited game play? It s up to each group to decide for themselves what universe they want to be in and what weapons are in or out ……
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But why not have a set up that the ships fight each other around the jump point, then head in?
They already can …. It is up to each group to decide on the tactics / where to fight.
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Technically the game did have another invasion of the clans. When the clans that lost the civil war were looking for a new place to set up.
Who / what?
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So the loss/replacement system show up more with this, then mechs.
The point is boot camps can produce massive numbers quickly – sibko elementals on the other hand cannot …. Massive limitation for the Clans!
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One way I can see them getting this 'taken' care of is for the khans to say that those that failed in the final trial of position be allowed to fight, but use them to soften up the enemy.
This can only occur if the entire Clan society is changed …. Remember Huntress when the failed trial of position offered to fight – they were rebuffed and told to stay in their technical position!
So unless you want an Alt Universe where this mod has been put in – its out!
And No garrison forces, unless the entire Clans Society is changed at the same time!
Though the biggest problem with the Clans is their populations – one world within the IS has a greater population that the Clans themselves – attrition warfare will roll them over!
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For the clan home world fights before the invasion, the sibko system was actually better then most. They did not have so many casualties resulting in death. Except for the elementals again.
The Clans Play at war – with circles of equals and all their rules ….
The IS actually live War
Massive difference
Sibkos are just not geared up for IS war – they may produce excellent individual pilots – but the IS produce MASS pilots – and in an attrition war the many will crush the one!
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the sibko example would have to have 50% or more in order to just keep level with the losses. That is 5000 per year per clan.
5000 Graduates each year - That’s any where between 1,500 and 2, 500 sibkos – thus your scientists will need to create between 150,000 and 250,000 children each year (1-3 graduates out of a sibko of 100)
Question given the total population of each clan how are they supposed to accommodate such a rapid increase in population when each Clan has such limited resources?
And where does any clan have 250,000 Iron wombs stored – plus the people to look after the infants etc …..
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The rule issue is the biggest thing that I see. Without it set up and USED all the time, it creates the issues they have now and will always have.
Yes it does need fixing …..
But without an adequate cash flow fixing the rules is pointless …..
And at this stage the only way to generate a suitable cash flow is through Novels.
Games per unit cost too much and require far too much work and are then only limited to game stores and e-commerce. Novels have a far greater reach in Book stores and e-commerce.
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Good stories can not be written when the next story in a series changes most of the outcomes because the rules were changed.
Just need one good editor! The remainder can be worked out in Alpha and Beta testing ……
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The government change is not a huge factor in their concepts.
Between Houses on the borders yes I agree it was not seen as a big deal
But we are no longer stating this – we have now introduced the Clans and their way of life – it is just too Alien for any IS individual to accept – thus war to the death / mass partisan warfare IEDs etc
Someone dropped the ball and did not think this through al all! And in so doing turned the game’s history into a Joke ….
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The numbers of reserve ships that can be used. I don't think the clans had a huge number of dropships in reserve to replace the ones that should have been destroyed.
Again no numbers were included thus turning the issue into a guessing match once more …..
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In this case, you do not want to destroy your economy trying to stop the clans.
Completely disagree ….. this is war like none that have come before …. If you do not win now there could not be a rematch for a 1,000 years …… This is a war for the survival of the IS way of life – it is all or nothing …. Something that Steiner, Davion and Kurita would recognize instantly …..and something TPTB just did not understand with their ridiculous narrative ….
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Pirates live in all sections of the periphery around the IS.
And how many pirate clans still exist in 3050 – a dozen at best?
So how much damage are they going to do?
This in not like Exo Squad with Simbacca and his pirates …..
And where did the majority of all these pirates live? …. Right on top of the Clan Invasion Route …. So how many remain?
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Those ships were better used for moving troops, then sitting in probable empty systems. This is even riskier then wolfpack hunts.
Any time a ship is used by either Clan or IS forces it is a risk ….. it does not matter where they are the risk is all the same.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/07/20 05:58 PM)
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ghostrider
09/08/20 12:31 AM
66.74.60.165
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One shot doesn't always kill with a head shot. Anything 9 damage and under isn't, for a lot of mechs. But I was talking more along the lines of wiping out the center torso armor without the thru armor crit. Such as a robotech particle beam canon would do to almost any mech.
Have to have and actually do have is a far cry from each other. Simple things like having your ship yards wiped out before you even get one off, tends to show the issue, and with some, they could not even get a yard going. The whole concept of wolf packs is to deny the enemy resources to do anything. Sometimes that is very easy as resources must come from another world, as the current one is tapped out. Even just having a factory that can produce the components you need isn't easy.
The issue is the fact that armor really bites in the game. The supposed SL armor was supposed to be superior to normal armor of the future, yet it wasn't. It was the same thing, and even the Ferrous armor wasn't that much better. The weapons, were still lacking in range that should have been easy to obtain with at least ballistic cannons. Energy weapons I can give a little leeway, as range tends to remove their effectiveness. Missiles are light dumbfire, which are almost rockets for targeting. But a single klick being impossible for them to hit is really horrible.
And I will bring up a funny or horrible thing with Infantry sensors. They can detect other infantry units if I recall right. Something mechs are supposed to have issues with at 90 meters.
No. The game has weapons that removes life on a world, not the world itself. But that was in reference to most games that start coming out and using things like the death star weapon. Then in order to threaten the players again, you need another weapon even more powerful, or different so they can't use the one that got last war, to research a way to stop that one. Bigger, badder weapons have a way of getting to the point that no matter what you do, once the players get them, threats stop being so dangerous.
Actually, it is just no space that they tend to miss. You can run Aerofighters in strafes and bombs. The rest can be done as well, though sea is a bit trickier to pull off. Custom maps are required if you try to use sea ships with mechs on land.
The only way I could see getting around this is having multiple box sets on the shelf that entail different levels of units. But given the lack of shelf space in most hobby stores, this is a losing proposition at best. Granted, you are more likely to find this on line then find a hobby store that even sells box games.
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ghostrider
09/08/20 12:56 AM
66.74.60.165
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The complaint of the kingdoms carved out by the clans would be the second invasion idea. From the sounds of it, the IS did worse against the few that actually did this.
And you want the clans to be able to produce as many warriors as the IS with their better skills and superior tech? And you say the clans are favored as it is? They would never have let Comstar fight the proxy battle for Terra. They would have been there to destroy the entire IS houses, and anyone that didn't fall to their knees and worship them. It is a very BAD idea for them to have access to that many reinforcements. It is one of the few weaknesses they had to begin with.
And now you might understand the reason they had warships. To prevent the IS from just sending in thousands of ships to attrition the clans to death. So the balance isn't as one sided as you want it to be. They did not really use this, but it seems to be set up so they could have.
I guess you missed where it was said that you would have to have 50% or more to even run equal? Not increasing the number of sibkos, but increasing the number that actually make it to pilot something.
Putting out novels and having the whole thing get changed leaves a bad taste for those that bought it. That in turn, causes what is going on today. More then a few people started seeing cash digs with some of the books. They had to purchase multiple books just to get all the information needed to play for a while. And they had some information in all of them, which seemed like they were just filling pages. The rule books also ignored the 'canon' items that were in adventure packs as well as other sources. The Battletechnology magazine was one such item. It was official for a very short time, yet it made it sound like it was all official.
How does a good story not being possible when you change the outcome in the next book have anything to do with alpha and beta testing? Before putting out the books, you should have all the testing done.
Again. The houses concepts were much like that before the clans arrived. The brutality of some nations would force those from others to fight to the death, or suffer the long death from the violent issues from an enemy house.
So there is nothing new with the clans way of life. The only thing that might comfort those in IS house changes, is the fact that their original nation may well retake the world.
So you would destroy your nation trying to stop the enemy, but with this, only having the books tell you what they had, doesn't even have you even considering they didn't have the reserves for a second or third push. This is another example of having the outcome in your hands, then modifying the past to change the future.
Again, the lack of knowing the IS shows thru. The better known pirates lived near the LC/periphery border, but they were not the only ones. There were plenty more living in other areas of the Periphery around the IS. The CC/FS/FWL had pirates hitting them a lot, and they weren't from the LC area. Tortuga is one such world that they lived on. Some lived in the 50 system cluster in the FS, if I recall. I can't remember the ones by the FWL at the moment. The MoS had sent in raids under the guise of pirates against others as well as other established houses. Some were renegades from those nations, while others just framed them.
A single dropship in a system without a jumpship is at greater risk the one in the middle of a war fleet. So no. The danger is not equal in all situations.
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Requiem
09/08/20 05:06 AM
1.158.133.26
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Such as a robotech particle beam canon would do to almost any mech.
Gundam Weapon Systems would be a far more accurate fit – Beam Weapons and I-Field Barrier …..
Still it does not change the fact that for a good writer there is always another option such as an energy field (I Filed Barrier) …..
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having your ship yards wiped out before you even get one off, tends to show the issue, and with some,
And this is why with regards to ship years they are ….
1. Placed in a hidden location;
2. Surrounded by multiple mine fields;
3. Have a small Naval fleet attached to them permanently;
4. Have multiple squadrons of defensive fighter units; and
5. Massive early warning Detection grid / with EMC Grid etc.
As for Wolfpacks …. This is why they are an elite fighting force …..
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armor really bites in the game.
Then create a new home rule …. You don’t have to be enslaved to the rules all the time – just go with the flow ….
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The game has weapons that removes life on a world, not the world itself.
Gall Force – system Killers are more fun in the super weapons race – turning a sun into a super nova!
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getting to the point that no matter what you do, once the players get them, threats stop being so dangerous.
This is why you have competent rulers who make sure the weapon is a one off or it has a flaw or for what-ever reason it becomes a piece of junk …..
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you are more likely to find this on line then find a hobby store that even sells box games.
Errrr …. Problem is where I live there are about a dozen shops specializing in nothing but box games / D&D / Jigsaws etc …. And still no Battletech, even in the most recent magazines on the subject of board games …. Still no Battletech …… where as during the 80’s I had a shop devoted entirely to Battletech and other games and yet now …. NIL
This is one of my pet hates ….. where once there was dominance in the market now …. Zip!
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the kingdoms carved out by the clans
Sorry to say but I have decided to given up on that history (and any book therein) …. As some of the information contained there-in disgusts me …. Thus I will make my own way with regards to history post MY ALT Clan Invasion …..
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And you want the clans to be able to produce as many warriors as the IS with their better skills and superior tech
Comprehension again? ….. No what I want is completely re-written Clan sociology that no longer takes the majority of its salient points from the “Ducks” and the Canon’s Amaris forces.
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Comstar fight the proxy battle for Terra
This is perhaps one of the most contrived and badly written points in the game.
The idea that the IS would allow the Clans to remain in the IS is ludicrous ….. this is war of attrition to the death, it is total war …. It is not this panzy lets takes a break for 15 years and do nothing to prepare for the oncoming war other than to not utilize the time fully and only take out one clan as written within Canon … which takes the concept of war to a new high in absurd war concepts!
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It is a very BAD idea for them to have access to that many reinforcements. It is one of the few weaknesses they had to begin with.
As weaknesses go can anyone show me where this rule was obeyed by TPTB within the majority of Clan Invasion or post there of?
The Invasion – not one time do we see the clans have problems with replacement personnel numbers
Falcon / Wolf War – they are brought back up to 100% with reaving and the IS do absolutely nothing to stop them?
The Wolfs are supposed to have reaved the Jaguars post Falcon / Wolf War – can the DC take advantage of this fact?
The only time it is seen is when the entire IS attack the Jaguars and this was the point of the story to begin with!
Sorry, but as weaknesses go it was never allowed to be exploited by the IS thus making the point a very bad joke.
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It is a very BAD idea for them to have access to that many reinforcements. It is one of the few weaknesses they had to begin with.
And this is where you have a good author the point becomes a number massive wars over hundreds years fought throughout the Deep Periphery (the space separating the two realms). In which multiple new realms are forged and destroyed in the process …. So the balance isn’t as one sided as you want it to be…. In addition new weapons could have been developed for new wars with new story arcs for each war situated in different areas of space …. Far more exciting than the game with a massive number of new opportunities than that of what the TPTB want to do …. keep eternally locked within the IS ……
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Not increasing the number of sibkos, but increasing the number that actually make it to pilot something.
This is what scientists call diluting …. And the Clans would say they are just allowing inferior warriors though the system …. Remember the Clan’s Societies rules are set in stone it is not as if you can just go messing with them and still call them the Clans …. Yes I do mess them and I have re-written them on multiple occasions for a variant Alt consideration …. The point is would anyone else consider doing this?
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Putting out novels and having the whole thing get changed leaves a bad taste for those that bought it
Actually it is a complete unknown …. Run a focus group / complete a survey and find out …. However at the end of the day money will win out – possible new members + old guard who like the idea Versus the number of old guard who quit – who will be the most profitable in the long run –new Vs old – old is a fixed number and very small, but in business you have to bet on continually expanding the target market, increasing profitability continually in the hopes of expanding the business …..
Thus 2.0 (in my opinion) is the only real possibility for future expansion of the game as the current history just does not make the grade … and for any future expansion it required a knowledge of what came before – thus again limiting the target market from the get go …..
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How does a good story not being possible when you change the outcome in the next book have anything to do with alpha and beta testing? Before putting out the books, you should have all the testing done.
How much in available funds are present for testing and experimental rules (pure outlay of funds) etc Versus how much a novel will bring (expense + Revenue = Cash that can be used to fund testing)
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The houses concepts were much like that before the clans arrived.
This is where I disagree, in the beginning there were well written books that did not (for the most part) include atrocities / wanton violence just for the thrill of putting it in / human concepts that just turn your stomach …..
Yes a level of violence is included in the nature of the game / however there are some lines that should never have been crossed …
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So there is nothing new with the clans way of life.
Really?????????
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This is another example of having the outcome in your hands
Again the canon game is about as realistic as a cat flap in an elephant house ….
When your neighbor’s house is burning you don’t quibble over the price of the hose and water …
What you do is build a broad coalition of forces to repel the Clans ….
Ie. First Army Group to engage the Clans – The NEW SLDF would be created far earlier than given in Canon …..
FC – 100 to 125 RCT (1/3rd of the Complete FC Force)
CC – Dead and integrated into the FC
DC – 70-80 Regiments (The majority of their Forces)
FRR – All of their forces 16 Regiments
ComStar – Half to All 50 Regiments - to atone for their sin of being complicit with the Clans
Wolf’s Dragoons – All 5 Regiments
FWL - ? who knows if they will join and even if they did how many they would assign.
St Ives - ? those loyal and those from the former CC who defected rather than be destroyed by the FC in the war of 39-40
Doubtful the Periphery realms will take an active stand as the war would be considered too distant – and not their problem!
Ie. Just as it is done now – build a broad multi nation coalition (under the banner of the UN and in the game the SLDF) force go in and do not stop until one side of the other is dead! That is TOTAL WAR!
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The CC/FS/FWL had pirates hitting them a lot,
How many and of what quality? And how many dies when they hunted down and got Lady Death? So realistically how many and how many actually have the transport to conduct a raid?
And realistically how much damage could these forces inflict?
PS – Isn’t this the reason we have Mercenaries and Pirate Contracts?
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A single dropship in a system without a jumpship is at greater risk the one in the middle of a war fleet. So no. The danger is not equal in all situations.
First, yes the danger is not equal in all situations
Second, the target is what determines the risk – one drop-ship on a no nothing planet has virtually no risk
Where as one in the middle of a war fleet attacking a capitol world (ie Terra) and the risk just went through the roof ….
Situations are what determine the risk …. Not the size of the force ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/08/20 05:08 AM)
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ghostrider
09/08/20 01:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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Doesn't really matter what game/weapon system you say, it comes down to the fact that sooner or later, there is no real fight, but who gets the first shot off that hits, wins. This is something that happens in almost all games. The next ultimate weapon soon becomes the standard weapon, and a new one needs to be made. It isn't a slight upgrade, but a large one. But then besides numbers, that is the only real way you can threaten the heros.
Yeah. Good luck assembling that fleet to protect your ship yards when you don't have them to begin with. This is an issue with shipyards outside of well protected areas, and even that, what do you protect? The world(s) or the ship yards?
But then I don't have warships pop out my backside on a moments notice. Same with making the yards themselves.
Interesting. It is fun to play with a weapon that destroys a solar system, yet other WMD are horrible and need to be forbidden? Something is off with this one.
So the fact that the Falcons and Jaguars didn't target more systems due to the lack of supplies isn't there? Had they had the supplies, such as reinforcements, they would have hit more systems. But since it didn't cause them to lose, it therefore can not be considered?
If the clans had the reinforcements of the IS, the fight for just invading Terra would not have happened, but a pure broad wave of all the clans would have come about. Not a single clan would be left behind, as they would all be screaming to punish the IS for destroying the SL. The idea of the ilclan would not have been put up, as it was not set for a 1 out of 4 chance to become it. The Jaguars and Falcons thought only they would come out as ilclan. Had there been even the 7 that fought in the Truce battle, they would not have suggested the ilclan prize. Too much risk of someone else getting it. And that may well be part of why the 2 clans were doing so poorly in the numbers game. Holding back units to hit the others when they got close to Terra.
The initial novel may do well, but any coming after the change of the story, would have people avoid buying it, as it would only be changed in the next one, or the one after that. So one time increase, and then major sales drop would happen. Sounds kind of fimiliar.
Have you read any novels dealing with the DC involved? All of them have some autrocity happening in them. Poisoning water supplies, executing the masses with swords or even just killing them. Nukes. Attacking other units from the DC just because they were not someone part of anothers forces. Force labor camps, which the CC employs as well.
The DC is not that far off the clans when it comes to your complaint. The only thing they don't do is remove the last name, as the clans did to try and prevent those from being used as an excuse to start crap.
Really. That fact that someone has taken over, and has destroyed your way of life doesn't change between WHO invades. You are no longer considered part of one nation, but now have to deal with new laws and new leaders that are probably worse then the ones you just got cut off from, by your upbringing.
The pirate reason is why garrison contracts exist in such large numbers. And normally it is pirate contracts that are sent out to hunt the pirates where they are suspected to live. House troops tend to be used in other roles. But what do you know. The idea of stripping those worlds of troops would cause a dramatic influx of pirates, as people will see they can get much richer and more powerful by hitting those worlds while the troops are elsewhere. And with the clans, those troops won't be back soon.
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Requiem
09/08/20 05:48 PM
1.158.133.26
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Doesn't really matter what game/weapon system you say, it comes down to the fact that sooner or later, there is no real fight, but who gets the first shot off that hits, wins.
First, The authors of the Game
Second, The Rules of the Game
The Games is dependent upon those who play it and the underlying rules contained therein – if you want an ultimate weapon, fine put it in – if you don’t then don’t – it is as simple as that!
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Yeah. Good luck assembling that fleet to protect your ship yards when you don't have them to begin with.
Fine – massive big wing attack groups with hundreds of nuclear warhead anti ship missles.
In the Alt you do not have to be so hide bound as remain with the Canon.
This is a problem of the Clan Invasion – I have solved it by allowing the House units to have Navies of their own – Thus a Mother Loving Navy War will be included – and as such the use of WMDs is removed from the game – Wiin Win !!!!!!
And yes the ship yards are hidden from all …..
As it is about time I brought some degree of sanity back within my Alt Game.
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Interesting. It is fun to play with a weapon that destroys a solar system, yet other WMD are horrible and need to be forbidden? Something is off with this one.
Need to recognize when some-one is being satirical ……
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So the fact that the Falcons and Jaguars didn't target more systems due to the lack of supplies isn't there? Had they had the supplies, such as reinforcements, they would have hit more systems. But since it didn't cause them to lose, it therefore can not be considered?
Convoluted much?
When looking at great deal of the Clans Military how many times do you see units requiring a great deal of time to rebuild – not many – Jade Falcon Guards took 20 months to rebuild post Tywcross – what about the rest of the Touman how long does it take them to rebuild from battle damage sustained ?
There is no consistency in the Game for continuing Battle damage sustained by the Clans except in rare circumstances – and yet the IS is expected to continually accept massive damage that cannot be repaired – it is a double standard one for the Clans and one for the IS ……
And quite frankly is one of the pitiful elements of the Clan Invasion …..
All battle damage from both sides must be calculated and quantified for every battle and a dedicated repair system as to re-supply / re-armament / reinforcement numbers should have been determined for all parties involved prior to the invasion beginning - thus once the war begins cumulated damage can be determined and factored into the Invasion ….. and yet what we got was ………
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If the clans had the reinforcements of the IS, the fight for just invading Terra would not have happened, but a pure broad wave of all the clans would have come about.
Forgetting two important factors …. POPULATION and SOCIETY
Consider the population of any single or even the total clans to that of the IS – they are extremely limited in people power by their population! They are even further hampered by their Caste System which completely restricts movement between the Castes ie a labor caste member cannot become a warrior unless at a young age they are chosen as one of a very few to be allowed of test for a position in a PGC – and even then these units are incredibly small – Jade Falcons was only equivalent to 2 IS Regiments!
Then there is the issue of garrisons – the Clans DO NOT have the numbers to take an ever increasing number of worlds and at the same time have enough forces to drive ever onwards onto Terra – this is a mathematical FACT! Their limited numbers due to the bidding system do not allow for the Clans to maintain world garrisons and at the same time drive on Terra – they will reach a point long before reaching terra where they will have to give up garrisoning worlds so that they can continue the advance!
Which again shows how idiodic the idea of a Clan Whatever empire is in the far future – they are constrained by numbers – and the idea that IS people will join the Clans is so implausible as to be considered ridiculous in the extreme!
Whereas within the IS people of any walks of life can join the military – and if we introduce the draft we get an exponential increase to the militaries size – and if we introduce a total war economic program as they did during WW2 the idea of the Clans surviving an attrition war becomes little more than a formality.
They may have technology – but this is only for a very short period of time as the IS should be able to reverse engineer it ….. and as proven so many times governments do not care for cost overruns when it comes to war so the idea of it costing too much to manufacture is again a ludicrous concept with game!
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Not a single clan would be left behind, as they would all be screaming to punish the IS for destroying the SL.
Again that pesky nuisance of the Clan’s society rears its head …. The Clans are elitist and as such only the worthy may proceed – and only the worthy who are chosen in combat - so again a complete re-write as to Clans society would be required to allow a full clan invasion of the IS ….
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Holding back units to hit the others when they got close to Terra.
Again …. No ….. the clans are extremely hedonistic and elitist – they must prove their racial superiority every day and as such they cannot consider the idea of holding back on anything – they have a mental attitude of win in everything every single day … this is just who and what they are!
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The initial novel may do well, but any coming after the change of the story, would have people avoid buying it,
Supposition and completely not true – it completely comes down to how well the first was received by the mass market as to how well as second will be received – hopefully an increasing target share with word of mouth driving sales for a second / third re-print of the first novel ….. i.e. increasing profit margin!
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Have you read any novels dealing with the DC involved?
Completely given up on these …..
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You are no longer considered part of one nation, but now have to deal with new laws and new leaders that are probably worse then the ones you just got cut off from, by your upbringing.
How did that work out for most of the rebellious nations? How many partisan / freedom groups evolved and how well did they strike back at their oppressors – and for that matter how long did some of these partisan groups survive for – as there are still some in existence that’s membership is now well over 100 years old – IRA started in 1919 and before that there was the Volunteer force established in 1913 – and how many times have the Irish fought the English for Independence dating back how many hundreds of years prior to this?
Time to get real … the Clans society is just too alien for that of the IS no matter if they do conquer a world they do not have the ability to subjugate and re-educate an entire world’s population to that of their society (they just do not have the population or the experience (psy-ops) to implement such a plan) - and how many like the FRR are completely stuck in their ways (hidebound) as to their society its origins and how they will live!
Sorry but no, the Games simplified if you are conquered you will adopt the new society way of thinking / policy is about as simplistic and completely laughable as it comes.
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The pirate reason is why garrison contracts exist in such large numbers.
Large Numbers? – sorry but no, there are not more than a dozen pirate groups who have access to a Jump Ship in the entire IS! So again there is no real problem from the pirate issue – if there were then every military within every Great House would have a dedicated military detachment who’s sole purpose is the eradication of the pirate issue – and as they don’t there is no great pirate issue …..
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dramatic influx of pirates
Please quote – how many pirate units have their own Jumpships?
Dramatic Influx – isn’t this taking it way too far …. There is no pirate issue!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/08/20 09:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still not understanding what I am getting at? Games continue to put out bigger and better weapons until it comes a time where the planet killers pop up. That is a problem they all have, as they can't do much with keeping weapons even and making tactics the thing that is allowing one side or the other to start winning. The resort to the more damaging weapons to make it a threat.
Back to square one I see. The alt does not fix the issues of the clans, as the warships were not really used to take out worlds. But again. The whole clan issue comes from the logic fails of the SL era. Things that should not have ever come about. The entire succession wars should never have come about from the way the back story is presented. And putting in something to prevent the end from happening one way is not fixing it. It is just changing the beginning to prevent the original ending.
And yet again, the lie of saying canon is wrong because the alt says so, isn't going to get a free pass like it did anymore.
And the Falcon Guards rebuilt from what? Dezgra warriors and freeborn? But you said that wouldn't happen as the clans were so hide bound. Hmmm.. Sounds like what would have happened with needing any reinforcements.
By the way. How many of the same units were used in multiple combats? The trinary size ones? So the fact that maybe the galaxy commanders did take some losses but were able to hide it because they didn't use all the forces at once, but shifted thru different units, so they had the 6 months to get new supplies shipped to them? Sidelining the hurt ones that could not continue to fight effectively? Yeah. There is no reason for reserves in order to do something like this..
For the clans, population and society didn't matter. They believed they would just walk in, and destroy the few miserable warriors that even had the courage to show up to the battle field, as well as the population, would just fall to their knees and beg the clans to show them the way doesn't have any effect on WHY the entire invasion happened? They damn well know the IS had more people on a single world then the some clans had total. They just thought they were that superior. It may well have been the intel gatherers were sending back false information sounding like the IS was using garbage cans and home sales signs to patch up holes in their units armor. Have you ever played a game where both sides didn't have a skill better then 7? It is a major joke, but not funny trying it. You are extremely lucky if you can get a to hit under 9.
The only ones that rule are the last ones standing. Letting others kill themselves clearing out the way, for you to come in and take the goal is the ultimate victory. Once you are in control, you write history suggesting that you fought against the odds to take control. Who is going to say that isn't right? The dead? The dead don't speak.
Given up on the fact that the DC was more ruthless in killing innocent people that the clans are? That they go out of their way to do so, yet their way of doing things isn't as bad as the clans? Or did you give up, because there is no support for saying the clans are worse then the DC? The Clans would become the DCMS after a little more time. Leaders would put their personal hatreds and issues into running things. Not how it needs to be, but how the leader wants it to be.
And still the major factor of the clans having Comstar deal with keeping the populace under control doesn't come into the picture. The concepts of the clans was watered down to allow the IS people to understand a little more of what was going on. That is not saying everyone would accept it, but it would placate a majority to just waiting and seeing.
Where did you get the information that only a dozen pirate groups had jumpships? With the clan invasion, more mercs went rogue and became pirates then be forced to face the certain death of fighting the clans. Oh yeah. You don't seem to read the actual wording and content of the stories. Just add in what you want to suggest only your vision is right. There are more then a few stories of even house troops taking their equipment and becoming pirates. But that would mean you would have had to read more.
Again, not reading the entire sentence as one sentence. The idea of stripping those worlds of troops would cause a dramatic influx of pirates.
As the pirates hit several worlds, sometimes in a row, the amount of pirates that have jumpships is larger then you think. And the statement says if you strip the world of forces, there would be an influx. Get your comprehension working right.
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Requiem
09/09/20 06:50 AM
1.158.133.26
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Still not understanding what I am getting at?
Sophistry – not all games go down the path to where planet killers pop up – it depends upon the games developers to determine which path they will take to greater profitability.
And if the did – how long did the planet killer last in the game – for example Star Wars, that really didn’t last in any of its incarnations …..
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Back to square one I see.
The alt does fix the issue of the Clans as warships are used to take out other warships in a Mother Loving Navy War!
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And putting in something to prevent the end from happening one way is not fixing it. It is just changing the beginning to prevent the original ending.
i.e. an Alternate Universe Narrative where the start may be similar but the end is going to be very far away from anything as seen before – and why? Again in my opinion – the Canon story is boring and lacks and any credibility to the characters and the Houses for which they fight!
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And yet again, the lie of saying canon is wrong because the alt says so, isn't going to get a free pass like it did anymore.
How many times have I recently put in the quote “IN MY OPINION?” - so stating an opinion is not a crime it is an expression of freedom of thought
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And the Falcon Guards rebuilt from what? Dezgra warriors and freeborn? But you said that wouldn't happen as the clans were so hide bound. Hmmm.. Sounds like what would have happened with needing any reinforcements.
Sophistry and comprehension?
Falcon Guards – Destroyed on Twycross – command given to Star Colonel Aiden Pryde – after 20 months – that means three to four round trips from the Clan Home worlds he was finally able to re-build the unit to fight once more on Tukayyid.
Thus taking a unit from the remaining 3 to 4 Mechs to a full complement of 75 Mechs and 100 Elementals required 20 Months.
So why didn’t we see this level of replacement personnel rate throughout the entire Clan Invasion? A simple excess sheet should have been enough to do the job.
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For the clans, population and society didn't matter.
Belief and the actuality of the matter are two different things – what happens when a world of 5 Billion begins waging a war against any garrison they leave behind? If they go down the hard route and begin killing of whole towns etc – how long will it take before this turns into a First Succession War Scenario?
You need to think through what the Clans will do based upon their History and their Society Norms – then you have to translate this into the norms of the Inner Sphere Houses and visa versa - cross cultural divide and the misconceptions between the two societies will become more dangerous than that of any weapon system / unit within the game!
i.e. the two societies militaries are just too alien for each other for them to form a common frame of reference within the initial invasion.
Sooner or later one side or the other is going to do something and all hell is going to break loose …..
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They damn well know the IS had more people on a single world then the some clans had total. They just thought they were that superior.
Problem is what happens when what they hypothesize turns out to be a complete bs!
What happens when they do conquer a world with a population of 5 Billion – they know they cannot affect the population so what do they do – remain penned up in their garrison whist the surrounding civilians pick them off with sniper rifles and IEDs.
So unless you are going to assign a major part of your military to garrison duty of a single world was it really worth conquering as it has now become a pyrrhic victory and mill stone around your Clan’s nech to achieving the true goal of Terra and the il-Clan.
So again why attack a world that will become way too difficult to hold and will restrict further military activity by diminishing your sent number (The bid number) of available forces? Didn’t anyone really think this trough?
What are your Clan militaries priorities?
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The only ones that rule are the last ones standing. Letting others kill themselves clearing out the way, for you to come in and take the goal is the ultimate victory.
The ultimate victory is by taking the objective and no one on either side dies !
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The dead don't speak.
Yes they do – you just have to know how to listen.
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Given up on the fact that the DC was more ruthless in killing innocent people that the clans are?
Give up on the fact that what they were writing about was beyond bad!
As for killing the innocent - didn’t see this during the Clan Invasion. And you will not see in my Alt. Universe setting.
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And still the major factor of the clans having Comstar deal with keeping the populace under control doesn't come into the picture.
And how has any Vichy Government worked in the Past when the Gestapo are running the insane asylum.
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Where did you get the information that only a dozen pirate groups had jumpships?
Have a look at Field Manual : Periphery
As for Mercs going rogue – the Mercenary handbook only had one
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There are more then a few stories of even house troops taking their equipment and becoming pirates. But that would mean you would have had to read more.
Really? …. Try again
Facts not supposition!
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There are more then a few stories of even house troops taking their equipment and becoming pirates. But that would mean you would have had to read more.
Did you even bother to read the above deployment into the Clan OZ – there are more than enough forces remaining behind to ensure that anyone who gets adventurous will be sorry!
And did you forget that these worlds also have reserve forces – so any pirate force will have to contend with them at the minimum – and did you forget that many of these units would have a serious amount of conventional fighters and bombers - so again any pirate force is in for a world of hurt on most worlds within the IS.
So as you stated “Get your comprehension working right.”
Edited by Requiem (09/09/20 06:55 AM)
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ghostrider
09/09/20 12:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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So basically one out of three movies was about destroying a planet killing Deathstar set up. And considering the time frame for the movie series as less then 30 years from 1 to 6, what does that tell you?
The IS having warships does not fix the issue. First, logic fails if they are not used against other houses. Second off, this would also be true about things like the Skye Uprising, and yet there aren't orbital or ground batteries around specific worlds. This does not negate the issues of the clan warships, either. The clans would have learned about the warships from comstar, meaning they would have increased the numbers as well as had a few more clans involved in the fight. So again. The ripples of changing the past to avoid the future doesn't work out the way you would want it to. But in this case, it is all about the alt, so the only thing to really say is logic says they would be used on other houses to begin with.
There is very little of the start that is close to the original. You have taken the end information and changed it so to favor one side. Might as well stick with the SL not falling, as that would be the whole reason for the entire game. It removes the violence of the succession wars, removes the 4th and 3039 wars, as well as removes the clans. Then it would also remove WOB and everything else. Now go on your own alt and create an entirely new alt, as that is the only way this would be an alt using the entire IS.
The fact is the same statements are being made that said canon is wrong because the alt does something different, then starting to add in 'in my opinion' is just rehashing the statements, trying to rephrase it with the extra words.
You really don't pay attention to the entire story of the game, do you? The only time a clan unit was hurt that badly before the truce fight was... what do you know, during the pass fight. And it was written like that to allow another story arc in the main story line. So what does this say. The clan losses were not so severe that they needed to rebuild that many units in the others. And those losses were filled by others, or left open for a while. I did not see anywhere that the clans didn't keep units that were down a mech or so, out of the bidding wars. One more thing. How could you tell that the unit(s) you face are not mixed or even whole units?
And now for the rest of the logic. How much time was taken to have the leaders really decide to rebuild it and who would be the one to do so? They finally decided on Aidan, as he is the only person that would take the position because of the dezgra stain on the position. Then getting the Falcons to allow things like freeborns into the unit, as well as getting some of those that were disgraced to join, such as Joanna. Then the mechs themselves. As it was bottom of the line priority, how many mechs went to replace front line units before they had enough to even begin to rebuild?
So one round trip would be what happened, and only for a very few like Joanna.
Again. You still don't understand the use of the clans belief was yet another way to nerf them, so they didn't just steamroller over the entire IS and take Terra. They had to have weaknesses, and with your saying they would have jumped at the chance to show they are better, why would they allow simple intel to stop them?
We are talking about removing potential threats to your taking the leadership. What do you think mercs are for? To die so you can take power. That has ALWAYS been the concept thru out history for them. Sending in a rival with his forces, to fight the enemy and allow you to take the victory is yet another concept thru out history to be used.
Many house troops took jumpships and headed out to become mercs. More then a few failed at that and became pirates and bandits, which are about the same thing, to survive and some prospered for a while. Now if the retconned yet another fact of the past, that is something I do not have control of.
I see where the issue of pirates said the FS/CC/FWL were getting hit by them. I don't see where it was stated that it was in the clan occupied zone. Better hack together a statement that says this.
All of those supposed 'forces' on the worlds were how big? You mean a simple company of tanks and some air craft to cover an entire world? And how well did this work in the past? Oh yeah. It gave the pirates access to parts to fix some of their equipment most of the time. Only when they ran into, or had reinforcements from the nation show up, did they have major issues.
Tortuga, I believe the world is called, is one problem for the FS. They were hit on occasion when they got to be a real issue for the FS, but the FS could not stop them for long.
The Tortuga Domains is an interesting read in the wiki.
Edited by ghostrider (09/09/20 12:38 PM)
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Requiem
09/09/20 07:02 PM
1.158.133.26
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The IS having warships does not fix the issue.
First, yes a Navy is there to defend / attack all aggressors;
Second, since when does a regional lord gain control over the Navy – throughout modern history the Navy is controlled by the Admiralty.;
Third, the new Ares Conventions are in force –
Article I – forbade the use of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons;
Article II – forbade orbital bombardments and moving within 175 kilometer proximity of colonized planet;
“This does not negate the issues of the clan warships, either” – So?, this is why everyone have warships in the first place!
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The clans would have learned about the warships from comstar, meaning they would have increased the numbers as well
Again that pesky nuisance of the Clan’s society and tradition rears its head within the Canon Game … the bid is set in stone and you can’t just break it without a massive loss of honor. So again – there will be no increased numbers unless the Clans break their own Honor Rules. As stated repeatedly - adding a few more Clans is once more against the Clans own rules as they were deemed UNWORTHY through the combat selection process and they have no choice but to remain at home!
So unless you want to completely revamp the Clans for a new Alt. Universe you are stuck with what you have.
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There is very little of the start that is close to the original. You have taken the end information and changed it so to favor one side.
Really?
This is where you actually allows the clans to conduct reconnaissance and not sit back and just accept 30 year old information from a unit that went dark and is presumed to be lost.
So, multiple reconnaissance missions – updated information – actually having an invasion plan – actually establishing a dedicated logistics route – actually establishing multiple small colonies on worlds to assist with logistics , medical, fleet repair, replacement sibko and support personnel etc, manufacturing facilities (especially armories for consumables) – everything that is needed for an invasion support fleet (as they did have 50 years to prepare ….)
And yes I did change all the “bids” into something actually resembling an invasion and not the hodge-podge as given …. Whilst at the same time I did completely re-write the Clans into something far more appealing …
This is the reason an Alt is established – to take what was given and create something entirely new from it – why? The old Canon narrative is boring and not only does it have more holes in it than a block of Swiss cheese it is just not believable when you consider the Character profiles of the IS House Lords and their Generals – their Military and fighting styles as well as their cultural norms ….. I just find the majority of the Canon narrative to be a waste of time ….
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'in my opinion'
Is just that ‘IN MY OPINION’ – just because someone disagrees does not make something it wrong it is not an admission of saying they were in error – it is a personal opinion – trying to make something out of nothing is verging on sophistry once more!
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You really don't pay attention to the entire story of the game, do you? The only time a clan unit was hurt that badly before the truce fight was... what do you know, during the pass fight.
Twycross
Rasalhague
Wolcott
Luthien
Tukayyid to name but a few
And then there is the issue of cumulative damage due to every battle – considering it takes 6 moths for any replacement personnel to arrive and at the same time these individuals are then dispersed in what manner - everyone who’s damaged gets a couple until they are all brought back to speed or is on an unit by unit basis and you just have to wait until your turn?
Again the Canon version of facts dismisses the entire concept of cumulative damage and a very slow and haphazard replacement personnel system of the sibko. Thus making the entire narrative into little more than a bad joke, especially if you count the damage of the IS and you don’t bother with the Clans – count the IS then you must also count the damage to the Clans at the same time – and yet where is this data?
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How could you tell that the unit(s) you face are not mixed or even whole units?
Go to any battle and look in the box entitled – Forces Involved – where does it say extract of this and that unit ….
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How much time was taken to have the leaders really decide to rebuild it and who would be the one to do so?
The Khan and even the sa-khan
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They finally decided on Aidan, as he is the only person that would take the position because of the dezgra stain on the position. Then getting the Falcons to allow things like freeborns into the unit, as well as getting some of those that were disgraced to join, such as Joanna.
First, Freeborn …. As there was only one.
Second, Joanna was already a member of the Falcon Guard (under her Sarna page it has her as the sole survivor from the Falcon Guards) …. So they would have had to kick her out not induct her into the unit …… RESEARCH FIRST
So again it took 20 months to re-create the unit …… which demonstrates the Clans inability to successfully rebuild heavily damaged units on the front line. – also if the unit was sent home they would have been replaced with another unit – thus making their return to the IS very unlikely, so Aiden would never have become the martyr he became when he was killed.
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why would they allow simple intel to stop them?
So you supposition is that the Clans went in blind to a battle and really did not care about intelligence packets regarding the world / units on the world they were going to invade next? Since when did reconnaissance strategic and tactical information become obsolete?
If so their downfall would have been rapid and with a loud thump at the end.
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They had to have weaknesses
Then include them in the game and not just do nothing!
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We are talking about removing potential threats to your taking the leadership.
Since when have pirate bands been a threat to a House Lord – except for the CC when they were cut down to half their size!
Mercenaries – consider Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries by A.E. Housman
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More then a few failed at that and became pirates and bandits
If they are so plentiful please name the units, that should not be too hard, should it?
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I don't see where it was stated that it was in the clan occupied zone.
Tortuga – what did Wolf’s Dragoons do to them in 3007? And by the way where is their TO&E circa 3050?
So there is Lady Death Trevaline’s Death’s Consorts …. Any others?
As for the Clan OZ – go to wiki – Invasion Corridor – Clan <Name> and then read the Periphery entries for each Clan.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
09/10/20 03:07 AM
173.247.25.195
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As for making my own game – that is exactly what I am doing ……
Problem is I have not posted the 80 pages so far regarding my alt history starting with the Star League and deviating completely from the fall of the Star League with completely new people throughout the entire IS - Richard Cameron and his generation are the last within my alt universe that have a place from within Canon – from there on it all changes ….. especially when Richard Cameron Marries the Pirate Princess from Tortuga …..
So not even close …. No exodus, no clans, no star league, only the Houses remain and even then they are vastly different than the game’s version …..
If it does not make sense it is the duty of the gamer to speak up and say this does not make sense. It is the duty of the game developer to take issue of the gamer and either provide a logical response or to fix it.
As potential gamer, I have pointed out that the known military sizes don't line up to the story you presented and that the Succession War, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, Dark Age, and IlClan era content is entirely erased in your relaunch, which would alienate many current fans and limbo the majority of the existing literature.
Isn't it now your duty to provide a logical response to these two problems? You have not even responded to the first problem, and for the second you've given mutually exclusive responses:
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It all comes down to the author and the quality of the story – as for getting it into bookshops this is via the publishing houses – how does any book get published and sold in book stores? Make a good product and they will sell and buy it …..
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Don’t you need this type of information just in case it is necessary for your players to go down this track?
If Battletech has missing detail in the thousands of pages of already published material, how big must your revised history version be to provide a completely airtight, full detailed backstory that unquestionably answers any detail a gamer may potentially have? Ten-thousand pages? A hundred-thousand? Who is going to publish something of that magnitude, let alone buy it?
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Consider modern ….
Politics;
Military Strategies;
Economics – comparative advantages as well as geopolitics;
Sociology;
Psychology and psy-ops;
Logistics and modern chain theory;
Mass manufacturing and engineering and the concept of re-engineering and value adding;
Historical imperatives that have shaped modern thought; etc.
The application of many of the underpinning theorems within the Battletech universe indicates a vast disparity as to what is written currently and what could be considers to be a late ‘1800’s Boys own adventure book.’
I'd like to point out that a lot of these could change radically in 750 years. Much of the defense being made is on how humanity interprets these things today. If we were to ask someone from the late 13th century, their views on these things would unquestionably be as different to us as perhaps ours would be to those of the late Star League. So just because things that make sense to us in the early 21st century, like total war and air superiority for military strategies, the Star League could have entirely different views (and in canon, they do, with far less emphasis on air superiority), just as our late Middle Ages solider would have. He'd probably think 'air superiority' had something to do with the flight of arrows shot from long bows. So falling back to the excuse that "it doesn't make sense" may not be appropriate. A lot of it doesn't make sense to us, but the canon describes how a lot of it is intended to makes sense to someone living in that future era. We find feudalism and social castes to be abhorrent, but in Battletech lore these are long-established norms and people are simply used to them simply being "the way things are." One of the fascinating things about Battletech is that its future society is so radically different than ours on a sociological level. Trying to rewrite it to be more 21st century in mindset may lose some of that intrigue.
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Still no idea where these quoted military sizes for Clan invasion are coming from. Objective Raids gives sizes for 3054, so we can use that as an estimate for mech strength following the Clan invasion and the Inner Sphere regrouping to counter them earlier than they did in Bulldog:
* AFFC would have about 186 mech regiments, not all of which are organized in RCTs. Even assuming they all were, 1/3 of this would be 62 RCTs, not 100-125. War footing production can't make up this difference in such a short time. And if the answer is what they absorbed from the former Capellan Confederation and St Ives Compact, 35 mech regiments together, and assuming all of them would be RCTs as well, that makes the 100-125 range half the AFFC military, not a third.
* DCMS is reduced to just 60 regiments, and much of their production capacity was lost. It takes 8 years and buying a lot of FWL product to build back up to 76 on the eve of Operation Bulldog. They just can't offer 70-80 regiments.
* FRR has only 4 mech regiments remaining, not 16. And no native military production or money to buy much (In 3062, they're still at 4 mech regiments and only 14 and half regiments when armor and infantry are added.)
* ComGuard has about 37 regiments of mechs (and 90 total combined arms) remaining after Tukayyid. If a Tukayyid doesn't happen, then they would be closer to 62 mech regiments (and 150 total combined arms.) So its unclear exactly how they're giving 50 regiments, and whether its counting mechs only or combined arms.
Giving you benefit of the doubt and going with the 276 you named, the Clans in total still muster (3060 numbers) 529 clusters. And this is after Refusal War and Bulldog (but includes an Abjured Nova Cat) so 3054 era they'd be pushing 600. The Clans were expecting one cluster for every two IS mech regiments plus their associated support and militia during invasion (and mostly widely successful with this expectation), so the IS Army needs to quadruple in size to stand a fair chance of totally conquering the Clans. You don't need just a First Army, but a Second, Third, and Fourth. What's left of the AFFC and FWLM isn't enough. Granted armor and infantry could make up a lot of it, but you've already accounted for the AFFC's RCTs and militiamen wouldn't be eager to leave their home planet to go fight the Clans.
Even if you restrict it to just the Invading Clans, remove a Warden Clan Wolf, and disregard Diamond Shark who didn't really interact much with the Spheroids, that's still around 250 clusters. That First Army's got to do about a one mech regiment to one cluster attrition rate just to take out the invading Clans and push them back to the original borders of the Inner Sphere, with little left to counter a second wave of fresh Clans.
The numbers just don't support an Inner Sphere going total war with all the Clans in the 3050s. It would take them decades to built up sufficient capacity to counter the Clan threat, and a united Clan opposition could utterly crush them before that happened. The IS was smart to only go after one Clan in Bulldog - it was an attainable goal. (And even still, they were losing more than one regiment for every Smoke Jaguar cluster destroyed.)
I should point out these numbers also pretty much prove the Clans could *conquer* all the worlds in the drive to Terra, even if it meant calling up more reserve Clans. And by conquer I mean destroying the defending force or forcing them offworld. *Pacifying* those conquered worlds is the ongoing complaint. That's a militia concern and one for which the Clans are not well equipped. You are correct there would be a lot of unrest on these worlds, but the Clans would've taken Terra nonetheless had Tukayyid and the Great Refusal not artificially stopped them. They had the means, men, and machinery to realistically conquer the whole Inner Sphere (and likely did circa 3000 which is why the Crusader sentiment had really picked up about that time) - they didn't really care about pacifying the populations of those worlds. Pacification is indeed a major problem with the canon fiction - but conquering is not.
Also, we've had the discussion about whether the Clans could replace their personnel losses for an invasion regardless of scope. With a labor caste in the hundreds of millions, almost entirely focused on providing whatever the Warrior caste needs, a scouting mission to determine the Inner Sphere's maximum available opposition and 49 years to prepare, the answer is yes. Not that it matters because the Clans weren't counting on a long war of attrition. Their numerical and technical superiority pretty much assured them a quick victory.
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Where did you get the information that only a dozen pirate groups had jumpships?
Have a look at Field Manual : Periphery
Why do pirates need to have their own jumpships? Your argument for few pirates is dependent on them having their own transportation, but there's no proof this is the case for all pirates. Pirates could just as easily buy passage as anyone else. A lot of jumpship operators, especially in or on the edge of the Periphery, probably aren't too picky because they don't have as much steady traffic as more interior worlds. And a pirate to an House nation may be hero to a Periphery nation or independent world, striking a blow for the little guy and bringing back valuable, needed goods they couldn't get otherwise. Some pirates aren't even pirates per se, but mercs hired to do a dirty job. Pirates, or at least pirate/raiding actions, and the need for militias and garrison forces are probably just as common as they've been described in canon (and video games.) I see absolutely no justification to say piracy is rare outside of the borders of the Bandit Kingdoms on the basis of whether they own their own jumpship or not. Per FM:Periphery, a dozen or so pirate groups do, but its apparent that many, many more can make do without their own. You have made a faulty assumption on this matter.
And just because only a handful are named doesn't mean there aren't others. We don't have a full list of every single merc lance or company operating either, but we know from multiple sources that there are many of them out there. If you're going to argue that there's only a few pirates because only a few are named, then you must also explain why the merc groups listed in the canon TO&Es or other sources must be the only ones that exist. Or that there aren't custom mechs and variants because they haven't been given an official TRO or record sheet, despite the rules specifically providing instructions on how to make custom mechs and canon fluff describing variants not listed in a TRO or record sheet set. Or that the stars on the map are the only ones that exist, despite scientific evidence otherwise. Its a terrible fallacy to assume that only those named are the only ones to exist unless there's some information that explicitly says so.
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ghostrider
09/10/20 04:02 AM
66.74.60.165
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So social generals are limited to ground forces? And local lords do control forces in their system, sometimes region of space. Feudal society going on down the line where there are military personnel that control the combat zones and such.
Do you really have no thoughts on the fact that the clans would have not bid on the invasion with the forces they did in canon? The inclusion of warships would have had the clans bidding higher for the invasion. Or did you forget that the invasion bids came AFTER the Outbound Light was captured?
Completely new? You have all the same characters doing the same things, only the outcome is different because of changing the past to prevent the future. Completely new would have nothing to do with canon, other then the game rules that are used to play with.
So by your admission, your stating canon is wrong is not acceptable?
just because someone disagrees does not make something it wrong
That statement destroys the entire premise of the alt thread. You say canon is wrong, but yet come up with this to defend bagging on the developers...
Why do you think the clans wait every 6 months before ordering more from the home worlds, or not have something waiting for them. The units are set in numbers, but that does not mean you can not have equipment stockpiled. Granted, the only ones that did this were the wovles, and they took off on pushing forward, leaving the others in the dust. Also, it is highly likely, the other clans had more then twice a year shipments coming in..
If I recall, Diana was in the unit as well. His freeborn daughter. And there were others. Horse just got the spotlight.
The Falcon Guards at that time, did not represent the Touman during the invasion. It could have been put together in a few weeks. The question that was PRINTED in the books was weither or not to let the Guards name die. But it was too steeped in history to let it go. That was not a quick decision. And who would lead and be in it, was not a quick decision. But for some reason, you think it was simply a snap decision.
As for Joanna, she was going to be removed from duty, period. Hence, she was originally not slated to be in the remade Guards. If not for Aidan stating he wanted her in it, she would not be.
Decide. Do the clans fight because they believe they are superior? Or do they sit around waiting for intel to let them get into a fight? They had intel to begin with, as it was provided by Comstar. There were a few times that this was inaccurate, and the clans still won most of them.
The weaknesses were in the game. Their way of combat with their arrogance, combined by the lack of sustainable reinforcements, as well as not being adept with moving supplies in a timely manor. For some reason, this seems to be ignored. So this shows not all information is being processed.
I will admit, I wasn't really thinking of a hired ship to transport pirates, but there are a few stories that have been about that.
Not sure if you have dealt with this or not, but there are lists of what units the clans brought into the IS for the invasion. Not sure if that is what you are asking about the numbers or not.
The discussion of the losses isn't about machines, but replacing the warriors that should have been hurt or died. This is the weak link in the clans armor. They only have so many currently active, and only so many can be made to fill them, but the length of time is the issue, as well as the average that do become warriors.
But then the clans do use normal infantry units to attack the enemy with. Something that seems to be over looked.
As for the garrison sizes, how much of it is really needed when the planet is being run thru comstar? Yes. There will always be someone rebelling against anything. But the whole world rising up at once? Only time that comes close to that is Turtle Bay.
The issue that seems to be a tough one, is the removal of the last name of people, and testing the children along clan ways. It seems that holding children hostage was a ploy the IS used against each other, so nothing has changed there. And the last name issue? Doesn't bother me a bit. It puts people on a more even footage, as you can not rely on an ancestors actions to suggest you are better then others today without doing anything but riding on the fame of that ancestor.
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Requiem
09/10/20 06:40 AM
1.158.133.26
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Isn't it now your duty to provide a logical response to these two problems? You have not even responded to the first problem, and for the second you've given mutually exclusive responses:
Wick – please be more specific as to what you want to know and I will think about a response.
If you want to know about Unit numbers – this is why Excel sheets were created.
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If Battletech has missing detail in the thousands of pages of already published material, how big must your revised history version be to provide a completely airtight, full detailed back story that unquestionably answers any detail a gamer may potentially have?
The 80+ pages are just a time line of major events (plus notes explain how some points / people will interact each other) – to completely flesh it out - it will take who knows how much time and effort.
This document will never be published it is strictly for me and mine to enjoy.
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I'd like to point out that a lot of these could change radically in 750 years.
In all reality they could change yearly if you wanted to …. It really does not take very much to affect any of these factors ….
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the Star League could have entirely different views
This is very true – the point is, however, if you make the people of the IS too alien from us now how many games would understand or even accept the changes? Sometimes keeping the game simple and easier to understand is a positive in my book for simple understanding of historical events.
The issue also stems from the weapon systems provided – tanks, artillery, infantry, long rifles etc etc – and at the same time you would need to change the tactics and strategies and aims of the military. Iif you want are more alien IS society then you will need to totally change all weapon systems eyc in order to accommodate for the change in societies values.
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We find feudalism and social castes to be abhorrent
Except if you were brought up on all the tales of Arthur – Robyn Hood – Lancelot – Ivanhoe and at the same time you enjoyed reading the history of Rome, the dark ages, the middle ages, the war of the roses etc
Then it is pretty much an extension of this ….
Problem is TPTB should have read some of these histories as they are far more unbelievable and riveting than that of the ones they published – that is if they had adopted some of them I believe more people would have read the books
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but in Battletech lore these are long-established norms and people are simply used to them simply being "the way things are."
Being hidebound to the Canon version is a personal choice – if you want to remain with canon then do so – if you are like me and find much of it boring and lacking energy then rewrite it to suit your values.
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One of the fascinating things about Battletech is that its future society is so radically different than ours on a sociological level.
When you look real close at it – ask this question again – it is not that radically different in many areas.
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Still no idea where these quoted military sizes for Clan invasion are coming from.
I know I dug the info out of one of the early Clan Books – can remember which one / or more ….
As for the IS have a look at the 20 year update which is 3050 – However I killed off the CC in 3039/40 so the FC should have have more than in this book, as well as St. Ives which is also larger as Hanse gifted them some worlds at the End of the Capellan Fall War.
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The numbers just don't support an Inner Sphere going total war with all the Clans in the 3050s.
FC alone has over 300 Mech Regiments – the majority of which are RCTs – so yes there are more than enough forces to go full on attrition warfare. Then there is also the issue of flipping the switch and turning the majority FC / DC economies over to war production as America did during WW2 – then at the same time both of these realms could institute the Draft.
So yes I can and will affirm that an attrition war is plausible ….
Then there is also the issue of weapons systems that will cause an immediate hurt on the clans – one such would be a high powered sniper rifle designed to penetrate a toads’ (elementals’) armor – or upgrading the range of a hellfire SRM to cook them …….
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It would take them decades to built up sufficient capacity to counter the Clan threat,
Actually no it wouldn’t – consider the time it takes to manufacture tanks and conventional aircraft and bombers as well as the munitions – then have a look at WW2 / Vietnam records and guess what the clans are now in a world of hurt!
Then go back and look at the time given by Canon to manufacture Naval ships – then look at the number of shipyards available – then factor in the two to four hidden shipyards the IS forces have manufactured since 3040ish and guess what the Clan need a bigger navy than that which they brought with them – and at the same time they had better have some aerospace fighter carriers with them as the flagships as the IS ones will be incredibly dangerous as I decided to allow a smaller Enterprise (Warship Class) into the game (Bay 1 and 3: 324 Fighters each bay – total 648 fighters).
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a united Clan opposition could utterly crush them before that happened.
Problem is as stated many times – the Clans societies rules do not allow for this – it is just the Smoke Jaguars all over again but on a much larger scale.
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I should point out these numbers also pretty much prove the Clans could *conquer* all the worlds in the drive to Terra, even if it meant calling up more reserve Clans.
The only way they make it to Terra is by 1. Giving up worlds and assigning thesir forces to the front lines or 2. Calling up more forces and at the same time giving up their honor and saying to every other Clan I am not strong enough to do this on my own! How ell will this go do down? And in all likelihood if a Can is damaged (50% damage plus) how many of the new Clans would issue a Trial of Absorption upon the damaged Clan? My bet the majority of them would – as when you are seen as weak you are also vulnerable – and the vulnerable will be conquered by the strong!
So yes do call up additional forces as in all reality they will just absorb all of the failures to begin with ….
The only way you can have all the Clan forces is if all were allowed to participate from the start ….. but if you did that I would immediately shift the war to 1st Succession War Tactics and begin by Nuking every Clan force spotted right from the start …
So again if you want a more balanced developed game then come up with a reasonable amount on both sides …. If you ant total annihilation then allow one side to have overwhelming force and turn the game into a joke
This is a personal opinion as you will never be able to convince everyone that what you consider is viable - is viable,
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They had the means, men, and machinery to realistically conquer the whole Inner Sphere
Problem is they do not have a dedicated logistics system (tyranny of distance) as well as a dedicated replacement personnel system (The Sibko training system) and at the same time their intelligence units are a joke and their freeborn support personnel / PGCs are open for psy-ops teams to de-program them and get them onto the IS side – thus undercutting their complete military forces on the front line.
But what is worst of all is their Hubris – they just do not get it when it comes to Garrisoning worlds – they just do not understand the backlash of the Partisan forces.
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they didn't really care about pacifying the populations of those worlds.
Look how quick that will change when partisan forces start killing of garrisons en mass utilizing unconventional warfare methods.
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49 years to prepare
Yes I agree if the clans utilized their time to prepare the IS would have been in a far worse position than given – problem is the Clans didn’t and as such they should have been a long drawn out war of attrition where the Clans fall to the IS …
Then after that you can have the second Invasion and then the third war in the deep periphery and so on and so forth for a hundred years war - until one side or the other falls over .
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Their numerical and technical superiority pretty much assured them a quick victory.
Strongly disagree … when factoring in all the arms and the ways you can get at the Clans they are not as invincible as people believe …. Thay have many faults and cracks just waiting to be exploited to destroy them …..
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Why do pirates need to have their own jumpships?
Please explain this fact to others ….. if they do not have a Jumpship or access to one their ability to go raiding is limited to the world they are on!
As for pirates numbers – their number is immaterial – the only fact that makes them a problem is their access to transport …. Without this they are stuck on a single world …. With them they can go raiding and who knows what mischief ….
Naval Transport is the key to everything in the Battletech Universe – without it your forces have just become useless!
Ghostrider,
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So social generals are limited to ground forces? And local lords do control forces in their system, sometimes region of space.
Sophistry again? Chain of Command how does that work in any Navy?
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The inclusion of warships would have had the clans bidding higher for the invasion.
The problem is available information ….
When was the last time the Dragoons supplied the Clans with their last IS after action report …..
And when did the first IS Warship slip the dock yard?
And did the Clans send a second / third unit into the IS to obtain additional recon information, post Warship construction recommenced, or did they just rely on the last missive from the Dragoons?
Answer this and you get your answer on Clan warship numbers.
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Completely new? You have all the same characters doing the same things, only the outcome is different because of changing the past to prevent the future.
Did you read this through before your posted it?
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Granted, the only ones that did this were the wovles,
Then where are the wars of reaving where the other Clans make up the stockpiles by taking it from the Wolves?
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Also, it is highly likely, the other clans had more then twice a year shipments coming in..
What was each clans total naval complement + Crew? Did someone forget to put this in thus the games have to guess again? – knowing how many support ships were available you could make up you own scheldule per clan and run with that …..
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Diana was in the unit as well
Diana was a part of her father’s unit on Tukayyid. And his “freeborn” daughter got a Bloodname ….
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It could have been put together in a few weeks.
Then why was its next fight at Tukayyid – 20 months after its last fight …….
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But for some reason, you think it was simply a snap decision.
This is war, not a committee meeting – the decision would not have taken that long at all …. A list of candidate names and bios would have been prepared ans sent to the Khan for evaluation …. Once read a decision would be made and orders would be dispatched …. Couple of days at the maximum.
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Decide. Do the clans fight because they believe they are superior? Or do they sit around waiting for intel to let them get into a fight? They had intel to begin with, as it was provided by Comstar. There were a few times that this was inaccurate, and the clans still won most of them.
The clans will always fight …. The problem is what happens when ComStar has no choice but to side with the IS – their next move be – supply the Clans with a total complement of inaccurate information so how good are they going to be for the next wave?
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As for the garrison sizes, how much of it is really needed when the planet is being run thru comstar?
And what happens when ComStar is forced to join the IS forces …..
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But the whole world rising up at once? Only time that comes close to that is Turtle Bay
What happens when the clans want to take IS children away from their parents to work in the factories like they do back home? As stated before the Clans society is so alien that they just do not understand when they go too far …
The entire world will fight the Clans!
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It seems that holding children hostage was a ploy the IS used against each other
Please supply proof as to this statement !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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And the last name issue? Doesn't bother me a bit.
Really? Your name provides a link to your past through all the generations and all their achievements …. It also helps to identify your cultural roots …. Especially when you find out your country and people of origin.
To many of us it is source of unlimited pride …. We will never give it up no matter what!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/10/20 12:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Chain of command works the same way in the navy as it does the army. And social generals get away with doing things initially, that even career admirals don't. The only big different is most generals prefer the ground based mechs.
So you are saying all the information the Outbound light had, was nothing? The fact that it was their appearance and information of the crew and onboard systems was the turning point of getting the invasion going? So ignoring the parts that gave reason to why things are done, seems to be a trend here.
As said before, which seems to be ignored, the clans did have other intel gathering units sent to the IS. The Dragoons was the big one. The clan grand council pretty much chose to ignore the information those units sent back. But this stops the argument in it's tracks, so has to be buried.
Gee. Maybe with the story saying the different supply lines as well as say the Wolves HIDING the supplies inside enemy lines and not announcing the fact they had it to the others, might explain why the other clans didn't take them. The prize in a batchall is pretty much at the site of the challenge and fight. But then, like more then a few, this information stops the this portion of the complaint.
Considering the merchant caste was supplying the clans with some of their jumpships, and had more then could be rented to do things such as move supplies and such, I would say that the touman was only what the clan had under their control. Anything else could well have been rented. None of those listed have anything to do with supply runs.
Considering Aidan was a failed warrior, the entire 'honor' of the Falcon trueborn turned on it's head with him. He won a bloodname himself. The fact that the Falcons went from being traditionalists to become religious about almost worshipping Aidan's deed, should be a major red flag for not keeping with the way the Falcons are written. As Diana had the skills, just being able to fight for one was enough to get her then name.
As much as you want to think the khans are ultimate powers for their clans, they do not push for things when others oppose it. But then reading the history of the clans and seeing how many times they changed their plans because of the warriors opinion differed from theirs would show this. And part of this comes in the form of the Sakhan.
As stated, it was not a snap decision. Also, I could use the 'because it was written that way' but that is a cheap way out. The idea of the stain on the Guards had them ready to scrap the entire unit. But in the end, they said the Guards were part of Falcon history, so would continue. Now having some of those very people being in the IS when they were ordered to report to the Guards would have some cause for why it took so long. I am sure more then a few that were assigned to them fought a trial of refusal. It is the way of the clans.
The only real next wave that the clans had before the fight was already given the information comstar had before the challenge. So intel was already given, and the clans would have to actually work for those after the truce battle. Which still didn't seem to slow them down much, as the Falcon run to Coventry, and the new red corsair shown.
You and your comprehensive reading should have no reason to ask this. The children have always been a way to keep the populace from rising up so much. The fact that spouses and family are done for specific people, to get them to keep the masses calmed, has been done since war started on Terra. This is a more specific version of that. And with the clan training, your own argument supports this.
And your response of losing your last name shows why it had to be done in the clans. That pride is what caused the civil war. It wasn't some soldiers that banded together to start it, but nationalists starting it with opposing nationalists. And that would always be there if the last name was kept. But then it still had some there as the bloodnames were there. So when you win one, you get your pride from that. But then again, only the iron womb born have this option.
Pleiades Cluster. This is the reason why you have to have a strong defensive force on your worlds. The impossible happened. The TC invaded the FS right after the civil war, and took several worlds, and when the FS finally struck back, it was thwarted by the Jihad. But in history, this system originally belonged to the TC.
And pirates hijack as well as hire jumpships to take them places. No questions asked, as to what the dropships hold. More then a few jumpship crews don't ask, as they have payments to make on their ship. Keeping a jumpship for some pirate groups means upkeep they can not even begin to do. And releasing the ship means keeping the merchants sending supplies thru the area without a major military escort. But the great general that knows all about tactics, should see this. It is necessary to know, in order to stop the attacks.
Edited by ghostrider (09/10/20 12:22 PM)
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Requiem
09/10/20 04:53 PM
1.158.133.26
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And social generals get away with doing things initially
Chain of Command is vastly different just by its very nature; the number of ships within the fleet.
It s very easy to spot and remove “social” Officers. So, only in very lax militaries!
If you want social generals in your game – fine – but for me I am only going to allow a professional military for all my Houses and Periphery States etc.
Otherwise the military with the most social generals is the Clans – gaining rank by having superb fighting skills in the cockpit is about as stupid as it comes – the pilot may be a killer within their Mech’ but as a leader of a unit in understanding the nuances of combat strategy they could be absolutely useless due to a lack of experience – as Napoleon said he may be a General but is he lucky? ….. does she/he have that “luck” in battle to get the job done? – as you have to remember the Clans view of war is primarily based upon the Circle of equals – the majority / if not all Clans warriors have no experience what-so-ever as to IS full world scale warfare – a point that has been conveniently forgotten ….. IS war is vastly different to that of the “game-play” war the Clans are used to.
Have they even been psychologically trained for the Horrors of an IS style war where human lives are counted as numbers …. A point the Clans have never shown except during Trials of Annihilation.
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So you are saying all the information the Outbound light had, was nothing?
The outbound light is a research vessel not a military vessel – ever considered that as such they will not have any military information whatsoever, the only other “information” would be personal films / entertainment series – films to watch on your break etc – and those on a research vessel are usually scientists / commercial transport crew not military ….
Even if the Crew did say the IS has warships how many within the Clans would just dismiss this information and not even bother to try to gain a comprehensive understanding? Again they are just too hedonistic as to their own superiority for their own good!
So how much credence is given to the information obtained?
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the clans did have other intel gathering units sent to the IS.
Really? And what did they do with that information? They bickered over everything ….. also remember what information they did obtain was limited in its scope …. They could not even understand that the Dragons were still in existence and had gone native – and as such they were a far more dangerous security issue than that of the outbound light … did no one even consider that their freeborn Dragoons could have told ComStar where to look for them? – and could it be the rise in IS technology was not due to the Helm core but due to the Dragoons themselves? The Rise of the FC (and by extension the increase in their military) was in direct response to the Dragoons informing the FC of their existence – preparing the Strongest for the day when the Clans would attack? ……
In any sensible military Intelligence operations the idea of a double-cross must be considered … and yet the Clans lack of understanding regarding military intelligence this was not even considered ….. pathetic!
The Clans really need to go back to school when it comes to what information is considered relevant as well as the sources of where / by who information is obtained …… 3rd Hand accounts by those in the periphery and no real direct reconnaissance information will only produce a distorted picture, not a full scale information requirement for a future invasion ….. again showing the limited nature of the Clans Military Intelligence operations …. Pathetic!
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Gee. Maybe with the story saying the different supply lines as well as say the Wolves HIDING the supplies inside enemy lines and not announcing the fact they had it to the others, might explain why the other clans didn't take them.
Gee. Maybe the idea that Clan Wolf was able to engage more worlds than that of any other Clan is a strong indicator that they have access to a vast inventory of supplies the other Clans do not have …. And if their “Watch” military intelligence were not such basket cases they would have been able to gain an accurate picture of what was going on.
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None of those listed have anything to do with supply runs.
Considering that each Clan is a Totalitarian society rules by the warrior elite – the idea that the merchant cast can act with impunity is laughable … the military say you are going to be used for supply runs to the IS and the merchants have no recourse but to agree …. And they are only rented when one Clan hires merchant ships from another Clan … which the Diamond Sharks would have completed happily …..
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As much as you want to think the khans are ultimate powers for their clans, they do not push for things when others oppose it.
You do know what a totalitarian government is and how it works? ….. as long as you could kill your rivals you , as the Khan, have total control ….
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the Guards
Still does not change the point that it took twenty months from one battle to the next for the Guards to be involved in ….. and considering that they are Clan Warriors who pride themselves on the number of battles they fight within a short period of time in order to be considered a Ri-Star and gain their Blood-name this is an eternity ….
So matter how you look at it their numbers were never able to be fully completed for the majority of the 20 months ….
Also if a trial of refusal is fought it could be done within a few days at most so it really shouldn’t be that much of a hindrance to the rebuilding of the Guards ……
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The only real next wave that the clans had before the fight was already given the information comstar had before the challenge. So intel was already given
And how did that intelligence work out on Wolcott when the Hohiro Kurita changed the name of the elite Genyosha?
Again all named units from this poit forward should have been renamed – rendering unit identification almost impossible for the Clans …. And yet what did we get but more of the same ridiculous battles …. It was evident form how the battle was fought that the Clans had an Achilles Heel – so can anyone explain rationally why all the future battles did not adopt a similar strategy and just blindly continued on with the same tactics that lost battles?
This just proves how badly written the invasion was (in my opinion!) – if they cannot identify the Genyosha from a green unit then there is something seriously wrong with their military intelligence. They could not even identify Hohiro Kurita ……. What does this say as to their competency ?
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The children have always been a way to keep the populace from rising up so much. The fact that spouses and family are done for specific people, to get them to keep the masses calmed, has been done since war started on Terra.
Again …. PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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And your response of losing your last name shows why it had to be done in the clans. That pride is what caused the civil war.
You do understand what a Heterogeneous Culture is?
You also understand that creating multiple Clans is still creating the same problem of them and us?
The idea of removing a persons last name is beyond abhorrent.
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So when you win one, you get your pride from that.
And everyone else in their society can just shut up and take it? …… Ow yes, this is just a wonderful society you champion! (satire if you don’t relies it)
If the former SLDF officers were not such cowered wimps this should never have occurred ….. Nicholas was and always will be on the same list as Amaris, Hitler and all the others as a despot of worst kind. (again in my opinion!)
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Pleiades Cluster.
Really? What happens when the FC are no longer distracted by other forces and decide to send a task force to retake these worlds how long is the TC going to last then?
Plus what set the TC off in the first place to start this little invasion – could it have been WoB forces goading them on, initiating an atrocity to rile them up and even giving them a warship ….. With-out this would the TC really be that foolish to invade the FC?
Also this was Jihad era – not Clan Invasion era …….
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And pirates hijack as well as hire jumpships to take them places.
Again …. How many jump-ships are even available to hijack and how do you even get close enough to one to take it over in the first place as the average pirate is not known for having all the gear / training an IS black ops team would have.
So again – pirates are limited by their transport so unless there has been a massive explosion of transport within the periphery the idea of pirates becoming a major nuisance to every House is again a pipe dream!
Then there is the issue as to the quality of their weapon systems …. Unless they have access to an unknown amount of spare parts and good techs the quality of their weapons have not been known to be that great!
As for ships that assist Pirates … these are called Smugglers … and if they become identified then their ship will be confiscated by the authorities so how many will be willing to assist pirates? Very few and they would have to be very down on their luck to even contemplate it as there is no guarantee the pirates will not just take over the ship to begin with and kill the crew!
as they do from time to time!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/10/20 10:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Really? The promotion board has no idea that someone is a social general? The fact they have NO service record is a huge clue. The ENTIRE Lyran military had issues with social generals. One of them will definitely want to be in command of the best weapon on the field, the warship. This wasn't started about the alt. It was a statement of fact that warships can be used against the high commands say so, no matter how much you think they can't.
There is such a thing as act according to your training when out of fast contact with HQ.
Again, you show no thought on how things are done. Part of the training all the trueborns go thru is tactics training. Those that fail are washed out. So why don't you think about the entire system before trying to suggest something isn't done. As you said, a warrior that doesn't know tactics is a bit useless.
You think that the clans don't understand war? The only thing they would have issues with is the fact the IS DOES hide in cities and such. They dislike it, but will go in and rip down the entire city if necessary to remove the enemy warriors. And given most really don't care about their own civilians, what do you think they will do about the enemy's civilians? Wait. To even ask this question means thinking wasn't part of it.
Hmmm. Clan interrogation is second to none, as they use the materials they have to get what they want. And it would be foolish for any ship out in the deep periphery not to have some general information about military tactics. It may well be what saves the ship from being boarded or taken. OOOOOPS! So marines stationed on the ship would know what is going on. It is doubtful that news of such an achievement wouldn't be playing on your vids as you suggested they had. But yet again, this means the complaint is without a base.
Still mixing up information for your benefit, I see. The Dragoons only 'went native' when they refused the recall order. It is very possible they were still giving intel to the handlers in the IS. They just NEVER went back to the home worlds. But again. The facts remove the ability to suggest otherwise.
And your supposition that they had not done so, shows how little you really think about what happened in canon.
Wow. Contradiction of your own words now. The Dragoons informing Comstar or any IS entity, while saying the information was erased in order for the next leg of the journey.
Now another contradiction by you. Suggesting the clans didn't have intel operatives, yet had sent the Dragoons into the IS to spy, and Wolfnet was up and running before the Dragoons got into the IS, by suggesting clan Scorpion had given them the training. So figure out which version you want to push and stick with it.
Once the Wolves started pushing sooner and more aggressively, they would know something was up. Not sure how much of the supplies coming in were in secret or not, but by that time, it was too late. And this is why each invasion clan had depots in deferent systems on the way to the IS. TO prevent interclan raiding, that would have happened had they used the same route. Any more things you didn't think of? Well besides a majority of what happened in canon. Read the books for the words in there, not the hidden message saying Amaris is great.
Thinking the entire clans are one organization seems to be part of why you can't understand how they operate. The warriors can not just up and demand the merchants give the warriors their ships to use as they wanted to. The other clans would not allow such an action, as it threatens the entire touman of all the clans. The Jaguars don't want the Falcons to just demand ships to be used and lost. It means less ships the Jaguars can use if they need it. This is a major issue considering all the clans are one and the same.
And thinking the clans would kill someone for disagreeing with them is a bit on the dumb side of things. You need those warriors, and there are more then a few times, the warrior in question is better liked then the khan is. The khans only started the major concept of killing off political enemies after the invasion. There are some cases that this happened shortly after the clans were formed.
Look at the Falcon khans. They were at odds on how to proceed after the truce went into effect. Did they kill each other? No. It was Vlad. Someone completely outside of their power to stop. The one ordered for Talmus (spelling?) to be summoned to accept Vlad's bid. The only one that was assassinated during the general time period was Ulric during the Refusal war with the Falcons. Other then that, nothing.
It would take more then a few days, as they would still be looking for others, as each warrior fought their trial. And now another angle. What about those other units that had losses, and needed reinforcements? Oh yeah. They would have to wait until AFTER the Guards were put together. NOT! Logic fail... what is this, like 3 million or so?
What? You want to suggest that Comstar knew Theodore was changing names of units, and had moved them onworld even before hand? Wow. That is a major stretch. That is why you move units around. To prevent the enemy from knowing exactly what you have and where. Tactics training would teach you this.
You mean you can tell if a unit is elite while descending to engage them? Wow, your much better then anyone else. The only time you find out they are much better then suggested is in combat, and at that time, it was too late for the clans. So again. Trying to use the end information to change the beginning or middle of the time line. This isn't Doctor Who.
Read the actual history of even our history. Families have always been hostages to the enemy to keep regions calm. This is a big part of WHY you have the dukes family live in the kings lands. To prevent the duke from doing anything while you have them. You keep implicating you are an historian. And that you read everything about the game as well. Why don't you prove they didn't? Because this is the way feudal societies have worked from day one.
The pirates did what all pirates do. They raid worlds they think are weak. But this is something you don't seem to get, as you want to move all forces away from where they live and raid at. This very issue is what kept things like the massed invasion of the 4th war from happening. Not only other houses were threats, but pirates and even the leaders of the regions were. The FWL is a good example of this, but it is not the only ones that had this issue. Hanse knew Micheal was dealing with Liao to overthrow Hanse. Could he move against him? Oh yeah. That's right. You said Hanse had the power to order anyone death and not worry about what happens. This is yet another example of why you don't understand what happened, and you refuse to believe what is PRINTED.
Some of the jumpships are law abiding people. They get into a financial situation and take on someone paying them to move a dropship or two from point A to point B. No questions asked. As more then a few jumpships are independently owned, this happens more often then not. And give the fact that back water worlds tend to have to have things shipped in to keep them alive, the flow of jumpships would be pretty steady given what resources are available. But yet another example of not really knowing what is going on. Just supposition to try and rip on the canon version, and suggest the alt isn't full of the same logic issues.
The alt can do what it wants, but the arrogant suggestions it is the only viable way things can be done, as well as suggesting canon is wrong because your alt did things differently, or worse, saying it fixes the issues, when alls it does is stop the future, but putting end information at the beginning.
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Wick
09/11/20 01:26 AM
173.247.25.195
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For the third time,
1. The numbers you give for military sizes don't jive with established canon for what is available late Star League era, to the point that the RWR-DCMS-Shadow Army team would outnumber the SLDF-LCAF-AFFS team. As I pointed out, the SLDF alone outnumbers the RWR-DCMS-Shadows by a wide margin, without even needing help from the AFFS and LCAF, and have superior equipment to boot. To make matters worse, you've thrown out bogus numbers for Clan Invasion era as well (see below)
2. If history is rewritten such that the Star League never falls, then what happens to Succession War, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, Dark Age, and IlClan era material? Obsoleted? Since the vast majority of fans usually play one of these eras (Age of War and Star League being much smaller fanbases) you would alienate many players. Where is the buy-in for them to adapt to your new history?
Neither of these are addressed in your alt that you claim makes for a better product on store shelves and bookstores.
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FC alone has over 300 Mech Regiments – the majority of which are RCTs – so yes there are more than enough forces to go full on attrition warfare.
Where is your source for this nonsense? 20 Year Update page 19 specifically says mech strength is 268 regiments and 1 battalion in 3050. Objective Raids (closest post-Tukayyid source I'm aware of) page 13 specifically says mech strength in 3054 is 187 regiments and 1 battalion. (These numbers include mercenaries under their employ.)
And counting the RCTs in each book, in 3050 there are 80 RCTs, and in 3054 there are 59 left. So its complete BS to state that the majority if mech regiments form the core of an RCT. Not even a third of them do!
Now potentially they could field 300 regiments worth of mechs if you add up all the uncounted company or lance sized mercenary units and/or pull old mechs out of planetary militias, but these aren't typically counted. And if you did count them for AFFC, you'd have to count the reserves for the Clans too. They have a sizable reserve of material in their Brian Caches and its of better quality than IS militia or low-tier mercenary. So the comparison of strength problem doesn't get better with an expanded scope.
The only explanation I can think to explain seeing a 300+ number in Clan sourcebooks would be deception on the part of the Smoke Jaguars after the Outbound Light incident to make it sound like the FedCom is on the verge of conquering the whole Inner Sphere and restoring the Star League on their own: an argument that convinced most of the other Clans to vote in favor of invasion. But 300 isn't the actual number. And the majority being RCTs is just complete bunk.
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Yes I agree if the clans utilized their time to prepare the IS would have been in a far worse position than given – problem is the Clans didn’t and as such they should have been a long drawn out war of attrition where the Clans fall to the IS …
Why do you say they didn't? They kept their military buildup high since the 3000 compromise and practiced combating Inner Sphere tactics using the information returned by the Dragoons (especially amongst Goliath Scorpion.) Why then would they not have also prepared extra Iron Wombs, extra sibkin dens, and extra training machines to be ready for an invasion? Once the invasion was imminent, or had started, these units start getting used to capacity.
Maybe in the 3050s and 3060s they could run short on manpower, but by 3070s they should be pumping out as many cadets as they could possibly need.
The distance I agree with - that's a problem for replacing losses quickly because it takes months of transit time. But the volume should not pose an issue to any war going 20+ years in length.
And even if they hadn't prepared any extra Ironwombs in the 49 years they had, why couldn't they do their own rapid buildup to produce more in a year or two? You claim the IS would be building mechs at record numbers to support a total war initiative, but can't give the Clans the same credit? That has all the markings of favoritism to support your point of view.
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And as far as the IS building up war material to match the Clans, I have to burst your bubble. With the expectation that each front-line cluster is designed to oppose two IS mech regiments and its supporting armor and infantry (at the least; they actually did far better than this during the invasion), to eject the six main invading Clans and their roughly 180 clusters, you're committing 360 regiments, or 80% of the 450 total available in the Inner Sphere after Tukayyid.
If the end goal is to defeat all 550 or so clusters of the entire Clan TO&E, you'll need at least 1100 regiments.
So how long does it take to build 650 regiments? You can say whatever you want about WW2 and Vietnam, but in-universe canon material always takes precedence. In late Star League, the Houses, in a military buildup similar to what a total war of attrition would require without wasting material against each other too much, went from 259 mech regiments in 2750 to 502 in 2765, with many more factories at their disposal than they have in Clan Invasion era. So that's 16.2 regiments per year of growth in even the best of circumstances. If you're losing 55 a year, building 16.2 isn't helping stem the tide much. You'd have to start with such an overwhelming numerical superiority to weather a 38.8 regiment loss every year of the war. 650 regiments at this rate would take 40 years to produce but Truce of Tukayyid only gives 15 years. So even disregarding the fewer factories problem, in 15 years the IS would only build up another 243 regiments to bring their total just shy of 700. Assuming the Clans did not grow at all during this time, 550 Clan clusters is still sufficient to defeat 700 IS mech regiments and their supporting armor and infantry. The IS has only got 2/3 of what they need to win. Had Inner Sphere tech not closed the gap with Clan tech during the 15 year truce (and it only slightly did in canon) then this means the total 17-strong Clan force could conceivably claim total victory in just 18 years, given a 38.8 regiment per year loss for the Spheroids.
I don't consider 18 years to be a very long war of attrition. The Amaris Civil War and the first three Succession Wars were all longer. Certainly not long enough to start bringing birthrates into the equation. And again, that's an imaginary situation better than what the IS actually has to work with in the 3050s and 3060s. Even if the IS got their growth rate up to say, 10 regiments per year (a good sight better than the roughly 2-3 they'd been operating at), then Clan victory could occur in a mere 13 years. 650 regiments in 15 years is a ridiculous 43.3 regiments per year growth rate. The IS just can't flip a switch and go from 2-3 to 43+ overnight.
If you want to say it takes longer because the Clans would not present a united front, sure. But they were united enough for 2 years to completely wreck a fifth of the Inner Sphere's might. If seriously challenged, and I consider a threat to their way of life as serious, I see no reason why they couldn't do the same for a 13 year period. (The Inner Sphere isn't exactly known or presenting a united front either. 280 years of war followed by a Second Star League that didn't last a decade. Claiming the Inner Sphere could unite but the Clans couldn't seems to be showing more favoritism.)
And comparisons to Bulldog aren't valid. First, the IS isolated Smoke Jaguar; total war with the Clans as a whole is by definition not isolating them one by one. Second, the IS sent 59 regiments and 10 Wolf-in-Exile and Nova Cat clusters to eject 40 Smoke Jaguar clusters. On paper this is a pretty fair fight, equating to roughly 80 regiments per side, but the IS sent many of their best regiments, while the Smoke Jaguar force was comprised of a lot of PGCs. Sa I pointed out above, it seems possible for the IS to collectively eject all the invading Clans, as they did with one, but it wears out both the IS nations and the invading Clan toumans to the point of becoming easy pickings for the remaining 11 Clans. But for the IS to face the full force of all 17 Clans, with many of their best still in the Kerensky Cluster, that's a much taller order and one for which the numbers spell out a very grim scenario.
Truce of Tukayyid really needed to be in the 75 plus/minus 25 year range to give the IS a chance to completely remove the Clan threat. They'd need that long to build up militaries to numerical superiority to match the Clans and to reduce the technical deficit (which by 3067 they still hadn't done in canon.) And it still takes the Clans not preparing very well to counter such a buildup.
The numbers, as provided in canon, just don't support the IS conquering the entire Clans without both a very long ceasefire and logic holes to prevent the Clans from keeping up. I'm okay with a story that has the IS claiming total victory over the Clans, but not until the 32nd century and not without better explanations for Clan passivity.
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Why do pirates need to have their own jumpships?
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if they do not have a Jumpship or access to one their ability to go raiding is limited to the world they are on!
You didn't answer it. You just repeated your claim that they must have their own or they are stuck. Which isn't true. They can buy transport. They can hijack. They can use more legitimate, secondary forces (mercs) to do the work. They can masquerade as legitimate until they strike and potentially be out of system before authorities notice. Numerous methods for them to get the job done in a remote system. Are you saying NONE of these situations is possible?? Canon has already provided examples of some of these actions (particularly the hijack method.) And apparently there are indeed enough jumpships travelling the periphery to make it possible. It doesn't have to happen every day. Pirates could potentially wait months and maybe years for the right opportunity. To say it could never happen is tantamount to saying that no jumpship ever travels periphery systems, which is a ludicrous claim. We know jumpships travel the dark. We know there's interstellar commerce out there. These facts are established by the mere existence of populated systems out there. So if there are jumpships, there can be pirates who can prey upon them or leverage them to conduct more nefarious business in the next system.
Face it, ghostrider and I have got you dead to rights on this. Pirates exist and they are apparently numerous enough to cause problems, requiring garrisoning and preventing large scale collection of those defending forces. Even the video games agree with the books on this matter. In fact, every source seems to agree except you, but you haven't provided any evidence to explain why you think pirates so very rare that garrisoning is a waste of time. You've only made a supposition about jumpship ownership, operation, and frequency that's been disproved. I mean, come on, don't complain about others playing the 'because I said so' card when your doing it yourself.
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Requiem
09/11/20 05:28 AM
1.158.133.26
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The ENTIRE Lyran military had issues with social generals.
The optimal word is ‘had’ – what you are describing is an 1800’s version of the military when ranks could be purchased by the gentry – However by 3050 this particular Lyran trait has been removed and as such is no longer a consequence.
Thus the idea of social generals still being in existence is a fallacy. And as for a warship going rougue, you would need the majority of the Crew plus the master codes that only the CO and XO have.
Plus depending on the era / country you could also have a political officer and a spy on board who works for internal security force.
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Part of the training all the trueborns go thru is tactics training.
So …. How many West Point Cadets turned out to be useless officers during the Civil War, Indian War, WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam?
Just because you received the training does not mean you understand what to do when in the thick of it ….. as it not only comes down to understanding tactics, you need to be able to read the enemy and interpret their actions as well as understanding what yur people are doing and their level of competency on the battlefield all at the same time …. And no you cannot get this out of a book – only experience will give you this!
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You think that the clans don't understand war?
They understand their version of play war within a circle of equals very well – where dueling is the forte. However, when it comes to fighting in the IS with all the vehicles, infantry, conventional fighters / bombers, special forces infantry, SOE tactics, Artillery and all the dirty ways of fighting they are but babes to the slaughter … they are just not prepared psychologically ….
The only thing keeping them going is the advanced tech …. However once this evaporates they just will not have the tactical flexibility / experience of an IS General.
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And it would be foolish for any ship out in the deep periphery not to have some general information about military tactics.
No.
They are a civilian ship – they would have absolutely no information whatsoever as to the military – the closest being that years Solaris championship Matches on DVD ….
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Contradiction of your own words now.
First – You - “The Dragoons informing Comstar or any IS entity, while saying the information was erased in order for the next leg of the journey.” – Sarna / Wolf’s Dragoons – Fourth Employee …”The Dragoons informing Comstar or any IS entity, while saying the information was erased in order for the next leg of the journey” ….. i.e. The Dragoons DID have the complete exodus road coordinates as at 3019.
Second – You - “the clans didn't have intel operatives, yet had sent the Dragoons into the IS to spy.”– did you actually try to comprehend what was written as the statement was in regards to follow up information post Dragoons going dark – they only went as far as the Deep Periphery – had no knowledge as to the Dragoon’s current status! - The Clans never even bothered to consider the double cross scenario … which again shows how pathetic they are. (again in my opinion!)
Third – You – “Wolfnet was up and running before the Dragoons got into the IS, by suggesting clan Scorpion had given them the training.” – If you actually read the books you discover Wolfnet was formed by Nicholas to spy on the Wolverines …. Which, given how long they have been in existence just shows how mediocre they are.(again in my opinion)
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this is why each invasion clan had depots in deferent systems on the way to the IS. TO prevent inter clan raiding
And demonstrates at the same time that the Clans have no idea what they are doing …. Did no one study Machiavelli?
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The warriors can not just up and demand the merchants give the warriors their ships to use as they wanted to.
Sarna / Clans – “Each Clan is governed by a Clan Council …. and have nearly absolute authority over all internal matters”
And only day-to day civil administration is carried out by a muti-tiered bureaucracy ….. so again if the Warriors say Jump the Merchants say how high (with the only exception being the Diamond Sharks)
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And thinking the clans would kill someone for disagreeing with them is a bit on the dumb side of things.
And killing a political rival is exactly what a Mongol khan would do to keep the remainder of his warriors in line …. For this is just what Nicholas taught them to do!
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The khans only started the major concept of killing off political enemies after the invasion.
Nicholas’ brother
The Wolverines
Clan Mongoose etc etc
The Clans have been killing their political enemies since day 1 the Clans were formed …..
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Look at the Falcon khans. They were at odds on how to proceed after the truce went into effect. Did they kill each other?
No they didn’t do much, they only started the Falcon Wolf war in order to kill of the Wolves – their sworn political enemies …..
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What about those other units that had losses, and needed reinforcements? Oh yeah. They would have to wait until AFTER the Guards were put together. NOT! Logic fail
Problem with this argument is that replacements are sent out in order of their deaths …. Whereas the Khan would have say as to who goes where based upon the overall needs f the Clan as a whole and not the needs of one unit and thus making the re-establishment of Guards at the whim of the Khan, and guess what …. 20 months ….
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You want to suggest that Comstar knew Theodore was changing names of units, and had moved them onworld even before hand
Comprehension of what was written ……sophistry will get you no where …..
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Families have always been hostages to the enemy to keep regions calm.
So once more you could not prove a wild story by finding any proof within the Canon history.
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The pirates did what all pirates do.
Only if they have the transport …
First you say that I cannot send my military against the Clans due to a lack of Jumpships ….
Then you say the pirates can raid all they wand due to an excess of Jumpships
Can I ask which one you have decided to stick with?
Sophistry once more ….
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This very issue is what kept things like the massed invasion of the 4th war from happening.
Can you point at any war within the game that called off due to pirate activity?
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Some of the jumpships are law abiding people. They get into a financial situation and take on someone paying them to move a dropship or two from point A to point B. No questions asked.
Yes they are called drug mules …. Look how that usually works out!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/11/20 06:32 AM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
The numbers you give for military sizes don't jive with established canon for what is available late Star League era,
Did you have a look at all of sarna’s documents with regards to each Periphery Nation etc as well as their documents as to Amaris the war etc and tally up everything as supplied on an excel sheet?
And did you go through every SLDF unit – utilizing the rules as laid down the each type of SLDF unit and what they were composed of – and enter it all into an excel sheet then tally it up to provide you with a detained list as to the SLDF TO&E?
When you have done that come back and have a chat.
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Where is your source for this nonsense?
Start with the 20 year update
Then go through every Battle as laid down by the each battle
Then come back with an answer ….. do not believe everything that is written!
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Now potentially they could field 300 regiments worth of mechs if you…
As stated previously kill off the CC and take their facilities over and begin mass production for the FC forces ….
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you'd have to count the reserves for the Clans too.
What Brian Caches?
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the Outbound Light incident
However the problem is that the Outbound light is a civilian ship and it would not have any military information contained in its data-banks – and do you know the amout of amy units your country has? So it is doubtful these scientific explorers would have any knowledge as to the specifics of any of the Houses military except in general knowledge.
Trying to make a mound out of a mole hill?
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Why do you say they didn't?
Where is the evidence to suggest they did? – eg HPG was not set up until the second il-Khan dies to allow for a video vote …. They clearly did not have it set up …..
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but by 3070s they should be pumping out as many cadets as they could possibly need.
No it is still a set amount … and it is still dictated by the results of a trial of position … so again their might be an increase but no one knows what it is as TPTB never decided to include the information into the game ….
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But the volume should not pose an issue to any war going 20+ years in length.
This again shows how crappy the story is (again in my opinion)
This is dependent upon number of Jumpships / their Class – the number of Dropships / their Class – and the production capabilities of the Facilities within the Clan Home Worlds …. When someone decided to provide us with that information I will be happy, but as once more no one provided the information we are all back playing guess what should have happed game!
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why couldn't they do their own rapid buildup to produce more in a year or two?
Problem is it still takes 18-20 years to complete the Sibko training depending on Clan …. So no matter how you look at it you still have a massive lag time between order and delivery ….
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You claim the IS would be building mechs at record numbers to support a total war initiative, but can't give the Clans the same credit?
Yes the cans can build at a record number – problem is if the IS can kill off the Clans Pilots faster than their sibkos can graduate them the Clans are going to find themselves with a stockpile of mechs with no one to pilot them!
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If the end goal is to defeat all 550 or so clusters of the entire Clan TO&E, you'll need at least 1100 regiments.
Problem is the IS should be able to reverse engineer most of the Clans weapony / undermine their freeborn support base with psy-ops / kill of who knows how many warriors with partisan sniper attacks and IEDs / destroy a good proportion of their logistics with wolf packs / build who knows how many aerospace fighter carriers etc etc and by then the requirement of 1100 regiments required gets reduced to who knows how many ….
Why …. Because fighting face to face all the time is a ridiculous concept when you can just undermine their ability to fight!
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but in-universe canon material always takes precedence.
The problem here is the production numbers are way out of date … we only have figures for prior to 3025 which does not include the memory core increase or the renaissance of military production as seen by the number of new models being produced during the Clan Invasion War ……
So again because there are no definitive figures provided all gamers can just make it up as they want ….
Problem is the statistics you are using are the same ones the USA were using in Vietnam …. How did that work out?
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The IS just can't flip a switch and go from 2-3 to 43+ overnight.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but yes they can …..
First – Conscription
Second – have you considered where all those worlds who have large populations get their vehicles from? – they cant be imported as there is no jumpship fleet that massive to supply their vehicles – thus they must be home grown – same goes for all the conventional fighters and infantry support weapons – I flick the switch and how loog does boot and specialist training last for infantry? And how long will it take to retool a vehicle production plant into a military vehicle production plant?
And just remember the Mech is not the be all as to weapons – Cassie has proven that how many times when killing them?
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the Smoke Jaguar force was comprised of a lot of PGCs.
Which is a miss noma as the jags didn’t have very many to begin with – and then when you look at the duties of a PGC within the Clan Home Worlds they are far from being anything spectacular …. However the real problem comes when you use psy-ops on then and get them to switch sides ….
Just remember the Cannon game is not the definitive word ……
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Truce of Tukayyid really needed to be in the 75 plus/minus 25 year range to give the IS a chance to completely remove the Clan threat.
No highly doubtful as by then reverse engineering should be complete and by the end of the 15 years they should be on an equal footing ….
But I totally scrapped this for my game as I find it a completely un-plausible setting …..
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[Face it, ghostrider and I have got you dead to rights on this. Pirates exist and they are apparently numerous enough to cause problems
Sorry No, unless they have the transport they are going no where – they cant buy it as they don’t have the money or the credit at the local bank (as if they did have the money they would just retire to the good life)– the training and materials required to hijack a ship is implausible – and contracting out your work to mercenaries as your proxy to commit a crime would mean that the merc are already pirates in their own right so why would they cut you in on the profits to start off with.
Then there is the issue as to the number of pirates …. Where did you get your inflated figures as the amount of pirates within the IS at any point in time?
The pirate may sound all great and wonderful but in reality it is not – so again where did you get the Jump-ship from in order to go raiding when they are supposed t o be rare? And this time try and come up with a plausible story ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/20 01:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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First incorrect answer. The social generals had been severely reduced, but not eliminated. And for some, they just got some 'training' in garrison units, to cover some of the shallow searches to make sure of this.
In the money grubbing LC, money will always give the rich the ability to become a general.
Are you suggesting that someone that shows they can't handle tactics would be put into the field in the clans? This isn't the LC and their social generals. This is the militarized clans. You don't understand tactics, you get flushed out of the training. The west point cadets don't become officers if they show they can't do the job. So far, social generals are not many in the U.S military, but it does seem to be coming.
Do you have any idea of the clan warrior? They don't worry much about surviving a battle, so much as making sure their genes are passed on. They are mainly suicide warriors. What psycological preparations are needed with that? They don't fear death. The entire basis for this is fictional if you think they are not prepared to die.
When has Comstar had a civilian ship out exploring the Deep Periphery looking for the old SL forces? The statement just screams of a complete logic hole. The Comstar Magellan class ship is armed with dedicated weapons, not something slapped on. It was meant to put up a fight if it runs into anything. This is not a civilian ship.
And to even suggest it did not have information about the state of the IS when it left the last communications range, is like saying the clans just wanted to sit down and drink tea with the IS leaders.
Now the statement of the Dragoons having a complete road map is counter to your previous statement of NO one having it. It was suggested a while back that the Dragoons would have it and should not have needed Trent to get it. But you said the Dragoons. along with the entire clans, would not have a complete map. Maybe writing down what you say, or even remembering what you said in the past is needed. Statements like this contradict your own complaints by complaining against things you said in the past. Logic holes or just trying to get some trolling action?
Leave the morons of the past out of this, as little deals with the clans at all. The clans KNEW they would be raiding each other for supplies if they had known where the others had depots. What is so hard to understand about this? That is why they did NOT run their supplies in bulk thru the same systems to get to the IS. This is stated in print. No need for special comprehension skills. But it seems this as well as other things, seems to go right by you. It does explain why you don't understand things in the game.
The clan council is not an individual clan. And the clan council will NOT just let even the entire invasion force just take all the ships beyond what each clan normally has, just for the say so. They have to hire those ships, as stated in the books. Those left at home, would not just give free resources to rival clans to cover the things they didn't foresee before their bid. They want them to fail, for multiple reasons. Sounds like history repeating itself. And as shown, the clans are not completely above sabotaguing the others. It doesn't happen often, but still shows up on occasion.
There are some cases that this happened shortly after the clans were formed.
So this statement right behind the one that says The khans only started the major concept of killing off political enemies after the invasion. means nothing, as you did not read it, or maybe the comprehension of it wasn't done, as you were adding in things that aren't there. So learn to read the entire paragraph before responding to things. Jumping the gun is only hurting your case.
No they didn’t do much, they only started the Falcon Wolf war in order to kill of the Wolves – their sworn political enemies …..
Now I know you are just trying to get an argument going. The Falcons started the war with the Wolves? What story have you been reading? The only way that could be concieved is that the Falcons were part of the movement to get the crusaders in the Wolves to rise up against Ulric. And they were not the only ones to do so.
This also does not answer the fact that both Khans were at odds on what to do once the truce was in effect.
Let's see. Camancho Cabalaros has a point where the Black Dragons had family members on live tv being executed to bring them to heel, as well as so many other stories having the 'heroes' having to save their family or the local lords form the enemy clutches to prevent them from being forced to help the enemy. But again, that means reading what is written. The Galtor campaign states in there, that the DC had a tendency to move populations deeper into the DC on captured worlds to keep them in line. But since you can't be bothered to actually remember what is printed, otherwise, you might have an idea of what is really there. Not pulling 'facts' out of the air, or seeing things that aren't there.
Where was it said the pirates can raid all the want?
Pirates have to be very picky on what they hit, as they can not afford the losses of house units. If they raided as they wanted to, Defiance would be owned by pirate gangs.
There is jumpships used in commercial ventures as well as supply runs. Something that is standard in the game. Seizing those jumpships from the commercial ventures is how they temporarily gain more, such as the 4th war. Doing so nearly destroyed the FS economy. Something that doesn't seem to register in anything you type. Just as the fact you can NOT have all forces in one location. Using those jumpships and losing them is far worse then using just military ships to move troops. Once gone, the areas they were running lose supplies until, or if, it can be replaced. But again. This is a military game, so economics don't have anything to do with it.
The concept of the Piranha effect is something you don't understand, do you? The ability to mass forces to invade one area, means pulling forces from another, which opens that up to be attacked by others. Small raids can devastate areas when there is no one guarding them. Simple tactics, yet seems to be one you don't have understanding of. When the main forces get back is a term you have used before. Now what happened when the main forces don't come back? Or worse, their entire supplies and bases are destroyed, and they have no where to recuperate or base off of in order to strike back? Oh yeah. That never happens. What am I thinking?
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ghostrider
09/11/20 02:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Of course the numbers don't say if every unit was filled out, nor if there were extra units involved in each. They the fact that you can have an RCT sized unit in a system, but only have a company being the largest size as they cover all the assets in one. And then the fact that anything other then completely full units would screw up the concept that things were not the horrible ways that need to be perceived for the argument to be real.
Do not believe everything that is written. This sounds like the looking glass needs fake information to be even close to the way someone is describing it. But then comprehensive reading has come up with facts that just aren't true, so ignore the man behind the curtain, as said in the Wizard of Oz.
Again. The alt uses the end result to change everything so that the FS does not get hurt in the invasion. Changing things so the future could not happen, then suggest canon is wrong because it was done like this in the alt is the only end result that could happen.
I still haven't seen anything about who wins the next big war. Oh yeah. That hasn't been printed yet, so you can change the here and now to stop the results.
I like that. Make a mound out of a mole hill. That is the entire complaint that the alt has come about for. Oversizing some of the issues while ignoring the reasons why it happens. Yet it is the only viable way things could happen. See the re accuring theme here yet?
Supposition as to suggest they put it up just for the vote, and that it was not in the process as they were invading? Or that they did not use it until the vote? Each jump system had an HPG in it. But the only time it was used was the vote. See the issue. Not written, so not done, yet things that weren't done and not written were done in the supposition.
So the answer to TPTB of not adding in the full story of how the clans would increase their warrior base, has lead to something he could not say isn't possible, but now has to say that it needs to be in stone. Yet that would remove the GMs ability to do much with it.
Given the fact that the clans that were exiled from the home worlds, would also mean they would not have access to their DNA vaults, and more importantly, not being able to take the Ironwombs, but have to build the entire assembly line elsewhere, would suggest they could not keep with the sibko way of doing things. The Wolves that went into the ARDC had resources they could use to rebuild with. The clan becoming tribes would have to take what was available. So there would be several years of no sibkos being done. 20 or so years of no trueborn reinforcements.
But yet Marthe took the cadets and changed the way they could gain reinforcemnts. Took them on a trip thru the LA and allowed those that scored kills to remain warriors. Hmmm. One of the most traditional clans changed the entire sibko process and determining warriors.
And yet, the idea of changing their ways is not possible. They would not use freeborns or even bring back failed warriors to fill in positions, nor would they start using the warships to wipe out the IS dropships and jumpships before they can reach planetfall. And with the clans needing about half the forces to defeat the IS, this means they need even less, as the clans had access to naval weapons, and could well have stations built dedicated to removing the IS before they could deploy all those troops as well as remove the ability to bring in more. But this stops the fantasy of the perfect story.
Yeah. It isn't like a scout jumpship can bring a mammoth full of cars to a single word is possible. And it isn't like a mech is more sophisticated then a simple car then having to rebuild the factories, ABOVE GROUND, would be needed, and more supplies brought in to deal with the higher requirements of building a mech. The odd thing is, the older books suggested the reason more mechs weren't done was the lack of fusion engines. And in the Grey Death Legion books it suggested a lack of radioactive materials to build them was the cause. With this in mind, the concept of the fusion shielding was needed like the cockpit shielding to prevent the pilot from being irradiated from a leaking engine causes issues when they had to change that.
The idea that businesses have multiple dummy corps to allow them to do illegal things and not get caught hasn't been taught yet. The same thing that is done by terrorist organizations to gain access to things that are not just banned from them, but everyone, including stinger missiles and such.
And the concept of pirate being less then a full regiment hasn't sunk into the scenario yet. Pirates of a lance size have been known to cause more issues then not. The fact that there are a lot of them, but don't gain the notariaty of the enemy house raids is why they 'don't exist'. Much like the pirates near Ethiopia or around the southeast asia. There is no such thing as pirates in our day and age. What a bunch of crap...
Also, the term pirate means an unidentified unit raiding places. The fact that nobles have used this to hit each other, and get away with it, only means they will get bolder when the known garrisons leave.
And we all know that jumpship captains will never do anything illegal in order to get money for keeping their ships. The pirates couldn't possible have money for hiring them, as they don't have mechs and tanks that can be sold on the black market for said funds. Which part of the black market is run by the very pirates that don't exist. No reason to keep a stock of 100 PPCs if none of your units use one. But this is too out there to even contemplate.
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Requiem
09/11/20 07:41 PM
1.158.133.26
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First incorrect answer. The social generals had been severely reduced, but not eliminated.
The Fact Remains – this is based upon your opinion of the Canon Game.
If you want them in your game fine – but just remember to put them in all the Houses, Periphery States and the Clans – as this is an all or nothing scenario. As status is due to more than money – contacts and political alliances must also be considered.
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Are you suggesting that someone that shows they can't handle tactics would be put into the field in the clans?
Providing the correct answers in the classroom / field trips is one thing – however when you have been in battle and you’ve been fighting for an extended period of time will this person still be able to provide the correct answer?
This is where the IS has the edge over the Clans – The Clans tactics are built around the quick strike and little more – the Inner sphere is bilt upon the premise of the long battle / built around the paradigm of long experience ……
Remember if at your Trial of Position you kill all 5 you get what position? ….. ie. your rank is dependent upon how good you are at killing in the cockpit of your Mech – it has absolutely nothing to do with how good / bad you are whist in the field.
With youth – an exuberance for the fight – remember the Clans are a youth centric organization when you are over 30 something you should be packed off to a solhama unit as you have past your use by date!
With age – comes wisdom of a hundred battles ……
Which shows that the Clans view of youth has a severe flaw in it – Experience counts for a lot on the Battlefield – something the clans have conveniently forgotten – as well as TPTB when writing the Clans ….
This is also where the game fell over with regards to Natasha Kerensky – she was just too old to have been a viable Clan Warrior once more – there is no way her reaction speed could keep up with a 20 something …..
Writing characters into a game just because you have a fondness for them is really sad – when for all intense and purposes she should have retired years before.
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Do you have any idea of the clan warrior? They don't worry much about surviving a battle
Suggest you conduct research regarding the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend and other units derived primarily from the Hitler Youth. Take particular note as to the testimonials of those who were attached to other units and fought next to them …. They too acted in the same way you are describing the Clans.
Anyone who goes into battle with this attitude is a threat not only to themselves but to the team and all allied forces attached …. These soldiers may burn bright and yet they will not burn for long at all …. And in all likelihood will take others with them when their do or die attitude backfires spectacularly …..
Plus – the Clans have never seen a war on the Scale and horror the IS fight in – the Clans are all about neat clean surgical fighting with little to no deaths – then place them on a WW1 battlefield and see how they react then psychologically …. They are in no way prepared for all the death and destruction an IS warrior is prepared for ….
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When has Comstar had a civilian ship out exploring the Deep Periphery looking for the old SL forces?
Exploration has nothing to do with the Military unless they actually find something.
And the Outbound Light was not a Magellan it was a Merchant Class Jump-ship with a Union Class and Buccaneer Class Drop-ships
Question: Why would the Outbound light contain detailed information as to the IS when it is an exploration vehicle – wouldn’t its computers memory contain useful information as to star chats etc …. It is like saying that an arctic research vessel would contain the most up to date information on the US Navy and Army – really?
Sorry but this dog don’t hunt!
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Maybe writing down what you say, or even remembering what you said in the past is needed
Do what you preach ……. The road was divided so that each Clan has one piece – it takes all the Clans to come together to form the road …. This information was then loaded into the Dragoons Navi Comps …… otherwise how did they get to the IS? Jumping blindly and hoping to be lucky?
The facts do not change – the Dragoons did have an exodus route Map – the Dragoon’s did go native – and the Clans had no way to determine if they had double crossed the Clans and supplied the IS with a copy of the map in question …..
So what level of security threat would you assign the Dragoons when they have access to the route and you have no way of knowing what they did with it.
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supplies
Problem is – Canon wrote into the game that there was only one legal route to and from Clan Space to the IS – it was only at the end of the line where the ships sent out on their merry way. (Efficiency and Security – the one HPG Grid net that allows the IS and the Home Clans to talk with each other!)
If any clan had a decent watch they should have discretely followed them to their individual Transfer Station – and then raided it in order to slow their competitors down …..
Which again shows a lacking in the Canon Game – inter-raiding between the Clans all throughout the Deep Periphery {Logistics) in order to restrict their advancement within the IS to becoming Il-Clan ….. which could have opened up the entire wolf pack scenario even further ……
Your quote – “ the clans are not completely above sabotaging the others”
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The clan council is not an individual clan. And the clan council will NOT just let even the entire invasion force just take all the ships beyond what each clan normally has
Time to go back and re-read the sarna / Clans / Executive Control
Clan Council – “Each Clan is governed by a Clan Council, a collection of all of that Clan's Bloodnamed warriors, and have nearly absolute authority over all internal matters.”
Grand Council – “the governing body of all of the Clans.”
So yeas each Clans’ individual Council can tell their merchants to hop to it – your transporting goods to the IS now ….. and they do not have a choice in the matter …..
Semantics yet again?
The Refusal War was instigated by the Falcons …..
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Camancho Cabalaros has a point where the Black Dragons had family members on live tv being executed
Still not state sponsored – just terrorists, same goes with the Dragoons …. And look how both of those worked out!
As for the DC …. This is the movement of their OWN people just as the CC did …. They are still not being used as hostages by the state.
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Where was it said the pirates can raid all they want?
I see you didn’t even bother to read it and comprehend what was written …. Just make something up …….
Pirates can raid ….. just need a Jump-Ship and a Drop-ship first …..
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Doing so nearly destroyed the FS economy.
When and where was this written? And the “Piranha effect” doesn’t exist …..
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Do not believe everything that is written.
Then go on start an excel sheet and have a look for yourself …..
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Changing things so the future could not happen, then suggest canon is wrong because it was done like this in the alt is the only end result that could happen.
Your opinion ….. not mine
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But yet Marthe took the cadets and changed the way they could gain reinforcemnts. Took them on a trip thru the LA and allowed those that scored kills to remain warriors.
Still does not change the fact they came through a sibko setting ….. depleted numbers when compared to academy setting …..
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And with the clans needing about half the forces to defeat the IS, this means they need even less
This statement only holds true if the IS have not reverse engineered Clan Weapon tech – if they are on equal footing then what?
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Could well have stations built
Problems – 1 who is going to build it and 2 where is the logistics coming from to build it in the first place (as yu are going to have to reduce consumables if you are building it in clan space and having the parts shipped to the IS) 3 what happens to all your free born laborers once the IS Psy-ops teams get their teeth into them?
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he older books suggested the reason more mechs weren't done was the lack of fusion engines.
Problem is since the reintroduction of the Helm Memory Core – the IS should have been able to begin mass production
And the fuel is water
Problems fixed!
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The idea that businesses have multiple dummy corps to allow them to do illegal things and not get caught hasn't been taught yet.
The problem is Federal Police, Auditors, Banks and the Tax Department all work together at ferreting this out …
As for terrorists – they work in cells – and usually require a person on the outside to help them with all the toys they need.
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pirate being less then a full regiment hasn't sunk into the scenario yet.
Still need that jump-ship and drop-ship …..
And still does not explain how they got it when they are supposed to be rare ….
As for captains doing something illegal ….. better hope that they don’t get caught or the pirates get caught …. As if this occurs then they are going to lose their ship and his license …. And there is still the chance the pirates will not just kill the crew and take the ship …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/11/20 07:47 PM)
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Wick
09/11/20 11:49 PM
173.247.25.195
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Did you have a look at all of sarna’s documents with regards to each Periphery Nation etc as well as their documents as to Amaris the war etc and tally up everything as supplied on an excel sheet?
And did you go through every SLDF unit – utilizing the rules as laid down the each type of SLDF unit and what they were composed of – and enter it all into an excel sheet then tally it up to provide you with a detained list as to the SLDF TO&E?
When you have done that come back and have a chat.
My goodness, your arrogance is utterly outstanding. As a matter of fact, I have collected this information for the purpose of my time-independant RAT. Mechs that are described as unique or with a small fixed number require some estimate of the total size in military at a time to properly account for random frequency, so I've scoured the source books for this information.
Star League, p 139 gives the numbers for SLDF in both 2764 and at Exodus.
2764:
125 Battlemech Divisions (each 6 regiments of mechs, 3 regiments of mechanized infantry)
200 Mechanized Infantry Divisions (each 6 regiments of mechanized infantry, 3 regiments of mechs)
75 Jump Infantry Divisions (each 6 regiments of jump infantry, 3 regiments of mechs)
50 Infantry Divisions (each 6 regiments of infantry, 3 regiments of mechs)
304 Independant Regiments (probably mix of mech and armor)
TOTAL MECH: between 1725 and 2033 regiments
Just before Exodus:
36 Battlemech Divisions
82 Infantry Divisions of all three tpyes
98 Independant Regiments
TOTAL MECH: between 462 and 560 regiments (Though not at 100% strength, they do have superior technology to House counterparts to offset this)
The collected Inner Sphere in 2750 (I'm still trying to find which source book has this):
AFFS: 50 Battlemech regiments
DCMS: 55 Battlemech regiments
LCAF: 52 Battlemech regiments
FWLM: 60 Battlemech regiments
CCAF: 42 Battlemech regiments
TDF: 13 Battlemech regiments
MAF: 9 Battlemech regiments
AMC: 5 Battlemech regiments
TOTAL: 286 mech regiments (not counting RWR, which is expected to be in the 5-20 range officially but hiding some 250-300 regiments)
And in 2765:
AFFS: 110 Battlemech regiments
DCMS: 115 Battlemech regiments
LCAF: 90 Battlemech regiments
FWLM: 95 Battlemech regiments
CCAF: 92 Battlemech regiments
TDF: 115 Battlemech regiments
MAF: 108 Battlemech regiments
AMC (actual): 11 Battlemech regiments
AMC (with Amaris supporters): 100 Battlemech regiments
RWR: 90 Battlemech regiments (officially)
TOTAL (mech only): 915 regiments
And from various other sources, we additionally have these numbers (though these may include former SLDF units, especially the 2786 numbers):
2784:
LCAF: 104 Battlemech regiments
2786:
DCMS: 161 Battlemech regiments
LCAF: 122 Battlemech regiments
CCAF: 192 Battlemech regiments
Using the growth rate of LCAF from 2765-2784, and subtracting out regiments added by absorbing former SLDF units from DCMS and CCAF, I have estimated all of them at a time around Exodus to be:
AFFS: around 128.5 mech regiments
DCMS: around 140
LCAF: 104
FWLM: around 112
CCAF: around 120
And the Star League book also tells us how many of the Periphery forces were wiped out in 2765 and 2766, so this is roughly what's left, assuming a similar growth rate (they produce less, but gain a ton of immigrants during the late 2700s, and some of those would bring mechs with them):
TDF: around 15.5
MAF: around 15
AMC: around 12.5
So your claim of DCMS+Periphery taking on the SLDF doesn't work. In 2765 these "attackers" total 528 mech regiments to the nearly 2000 of the SLDF. And in 2785, that group totals only about 183 mech regiments while the SLDF is still over 462. As I suggested earlier, your attackers need help from the FWLM and CCAF. Doing this in 2785 gives them 415 regiments, and at that point its a serious challenge to the SLDF, assuming AFFS and LCAF stay neutral. An SLDF+AFFS+LCAF team rebreaks this balance. So a story that says the DCMS and periphery would gang up and overwhelm the SLDF+AFFS+LCAF is highly problematic. The SLDF is just too big. Even if my estimates are off my a wide margin (10-20 regiments), it doesn't get any of them to the point of challenging the SLDF.
I'm welcome to have that chat where you admit you were wrong anytime you want. Or you may do your own research and provide some evidence for your attacker team being as large as the SLDF at any point in the 2750-2785 timeframe.
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Start with the 20 year update
Then go through every Battle as laid down by the each battle
Then come back with an answer ….. do not believe everything that is written!
So 20 Year Update is both right and wrong? Its wrong in its official total amount (which is reasonably in line with Objective Raids and known losses to Clans), but its correct if you read fluff and add up every battle, and somehow create additional units?
I don't believe everything that's written, but I'm willing to accept as hard fact any TO&E that specifically says "MECH STRENGTH: X" That is THE canon number and you can not dispute it by referencing fluff. You're actually asking us to trust what ISN'T official, on another one of your 'because I said so' statements.
So the onus is on you to point out exactly what statements in 20 Year Update lead one to believe there are over 30 missing mech regiments in the official AFFC TO&E, and justification for why they override the official canon number provided at the top of page 19.
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However the problem is that the Outbound light is a civilian ship and it would not have any military information contained in its data-banks – and do you know the amout of amy units your country has? So it is doubtful these scientific explorers would have any knowledge as to the specifics of any of the Houses military except in general knowledge.
I never said Smoke Jaguar got numbers from Outbound Light crew or databanks. I said Smoke Jaguar may have made up a sufficiently high number (more than Wolf's Dragoons had estimated) to fool the rest of the Clan Council into immediate action. Its merely a plausible explanation for how a wild 300 regiment/RCT number could appear in 'some Clan sourcebook' as you claim, but it still wouldn't make it the correct AFFC size. If you are adamant 300 is the correct size, you need to supply a source because the documentation proves otherwise. You can claim the AFFC takes over Capellan industry all you want to get to 300 RCTs, but we aren't arguing what's possible in your universe, we're arguing what's possible in the canon universe.
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This is dependent upon number of Jumpships / their Class – the number of Dropships / their Class – and the production capabilities of the Facilities within the Clan Home Worlds
So now its a matter of jumpship and dropship production? IS can make hundreds of thousands of not just mechs, but all the jumpships, warships, and dropships it wants to wage total war in a short amount of time - but the Clans can't reciprocate to meet their needs?
Is there some detail I've not seen about the Clan worlds almost extinguishing their supply of steel, artificial amniotic fluids, and whatever else is needed for iron wombs? Are the Clans just simply not smart enough to perform a buildup to suit their needs? Not just soldiers or mechs but transport assets as well. Clan Ghost Bear's preparation to move to the IS appears to prove that they can both plan ahead and pull it off in short order. I'm really at a loss here for how the Clans can't do these things in alt history. A population in the hundreds of millions, all focused on military efforts - as opposed to the small fraction of IS population - and they suddenly can't make new hardware...
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Yes the cans can build at a record number – problem is if the IS can kill off the Clans Pilots faster than their sibkos can graduate them the Clans are going to find themselves with a stockpile of mechs with no one to pilot them!
And now the other shoe drops. As I pointed out, the IS can't kill off the Clan pilots fast enough because they don't have the war material to do it. The math says they need 650 more mech regiments (and associated armor, infantry, and support elements) to stand a chance, assuming the Clans do not grow in size. They don't have the time to make this much material.
When the Truce of Tukayyid expired, the Clans would resume devastating the Inner Sphere and the IS really wouldn't have been ready to stop them. Better than they were in 3049, but still decades away from being able to halt Clan progress. They need more production than ever existed during the height of the Star League. Its not a matter of whether the IS can or can't do it with unlimited time - even I'll concede that given several decades they could outproduce the Star League if pressured to do so. Its a matter of whether they can in the time alloted. Based on canon numbers, the math says they need a lot more time than the 15 year truce gives them.
I understand your argument: that the IS has a greater available pool of pilots. I don't disagree with that. My argument is that they don't have the machines to turn the tide, and wouldn't have enough time to make them before the point is moot. The Inner Sphere's unlimited personnel resource is hampered by a limited production capacity.
Step 1: Increase production capacity to gain parity with the Clans. This mostly takes the form of mechs, fighters, and warships, not small arms.
Step 2: Allow attrition to take hold, such that Inner Sphere material production outpaces Clan pilot and/or material production.
Step 3: Conquer the Clans when they can no longer maintain the rate of attrition.
My point is that you keep wanting to start at step 2, but you can't get to step 2 without step 1, which is not an achievable goal in a 15 year timeframe.
And I've no idea how IS soldiers would be able to kill any pilots of the home clans with snipers and IEDs. They can't get their soldiers within 1000 light years of homeworld Clanners in the 3050s, let alone close enough to pick them off with a rifle or plant a bomb. Yet, they find a way to do just that so the Clan pilot count can be reduced by something like half (i.e., tens of thousands of assassinations) just to make Mr Requiem right. Truly astounding powers these Spheroids in your home campaigns must have.
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they cant buy it as they don’t have the money or the credit at the local bank
Now pirates don't have money either? Where is this written? And how deep do you want to dig this hole?
The canon is rife with refugees moving to other plants (such as FRR citizens fleeing to the Illyrian Palatinate) - if refugee groups can afford to transport half way across the Inner Sphere (dozens of jumps), why can't a pirate group afford to make two jumps (there and back)? I don't know if there's a number in the printed material, but based on HBS game, the price of a single jump is 30 thousand C-bills per docking collar, which really isn't much in the big scheme of things. If pirates take a warehouse full of a million c-bills worth of booty, then 60K is just a small bit. (My guess is they spend well more than 60K per operation just on unit maintenance, food, and lodging.)
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Then there is the issue as to the number of pirates …. Where did you get your inflated figures as the amount of pirates within the IS at any point in time?
The presence of garrison troops on backwater worlds indicates pirates are at least common enough to warrant their necessity. Individual pirate actions may be rare, but not rare enough to leave high value targets unguarded. This was ghostrider's original assertion, and you haven't countered it with any evidence of your own.
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And this time try and come up with a plausible story ….
You've argued that there is either no jumpships in the periphery (and therefore no inhabited planets) or that jumpships are entirely immune to pirate actions (disproved by canon references to hijacking) or that pirates are too poor (disproved by canon references to refugees affording travel and supporting evidence for a reasonable cost). And you still want to call us implausible? Why don't YOU try this time. You have said four times now they are rare, but provided no explanation or evidence in any of those four cases. The assumption is that you don't think there's enough jumpship traffic - but there seems to be more than you think there is.
Let's do some more math here.
* It takes roughly 180 hours to charge a sail. Let's give 200 for star variability, unpacking the sail, repacking, and sitting at station. And another 100 just for sufficient wiggle room.
* There are 8766 hours in an average year, so this allows our jumpship to comfortably make 29 jumps a year (and probably pushing 40 in more reasonable scenarios.)
* Most worlds in the near periphery are within two jumps of another. So let's say our pirates are four jumps away from target to be safer from bias. (Tortuga is four from the nearest FedSuns worlds so this is fair estimate.)
* Thus a jumpship operating on these frequencies could visit about 7.3 inhabited worlds per year.
* I forget the source, but canon spells out that the Magistracy is jumpship-poor even for periphery, and only has 24 jumpships travelling its stars. Split between 42 worlds, and assuming all were equal (they aren't) that's .57 of a jumpship per inhabited world.
* So taking our numeric frequency (.57/world) and visiting frequency (7.3/year), we now have an average periphery world visited by jumpship 4.17 times per year.
* Pirates need only wait an average of twelves weeks in this scenario for a jumpship to come along, for which I gave a lot of benefits to a less frequent scenario. In scenarios where the jumpship doesn't dally as long, pirates are closer to target world, or operating in more frequently visited systems (such as popular trading lanes), then the wait would be less than twelve weeks.
That's not too frequent but its also not so rare as to invalidate the possibility of pirates hitching a ride or attacking one of them (particularly with some knowledge of the jumpship's schedule.) Its definitely a plausible story, as you requested.
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ghostrider
09/12/20 02:46 AM
66.74.60.165
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You really do not understand balance beyond everyone having the same units, numbers and all around equipment. The social generals in the game kept the LC from using their economic might to just roll over the other houses. Removing, or worse, saddling the other house sterilizes the game. Just like removing the WMD, it basically prevents any sort of advantage/disadvantage of each house. Next you will be saying all houses need to have strict adherence to bushido and there is no discord in each realm. And you say that your game wouldn't be full of logic holes.
You really need to reread the clans trials of position. The only way to gain more then three kills is to start a grand melee sort of fight. Read Aidan and Natasha for full details on that one. This should not have to even be suggested, as ANYONE actually reading the books knows this.
Do you understand combat experience? From the response, it seems like you don't have a clue. Experience doesn't rely on reacting to someone, but almost knowing what they will do before they do, and using that to defeat them. You don't have to be able to flick an arm to cover a location, as you already have it moving before the enemy even thinks of dodging that direction. But there is SOME reflexes needed. And after fighting for 60 plus years, Natasha was beyond anything the clans have ever dealt with. You want to say age would prevent her from beating those a quarter of her age? You don't really understand those that keep in shape in their 80s and 90s. The only difference is the clans breed their warriors and take the top ones for becoming a trained warrior. That is the ONLY reason why they would be 'harder' to beat.
Suggest you forget all the crap of history, and focus on what is actually printed and said about the game you are trying to rip apart. The clans are NOT like anything in history. The BS of one unit does not compare to EVERY warrior in all of the clans. Trying to even put them in the same league is part of why you can't even begin to understand the clan warrior.
There is always deaths in combat. Elementals against mech warriors in mechs always results in deaths, as the elementals tend to die with their armor. And with the power of the weapons they have, they do kill each other more often then you want to suggest. But this would be obvious if you read the actual written words, and not day dream of how you want them to be.
You mean each clan did not divide their route into sections in order to adhere to the order of no one ship had the entire route in their jump computers? Might need to reread the highlanders book where they start hitting the Jaguars and have to raid the Nova Cats in order to break out of the Jaguar's world. They each had their own route to bring supplies into the IS. The split in each clan having a single piece of the route is garbage beyond bs. And remember this when you suggest the Dragoons have it all again.
And by the way. Look at the map of the exodus road, and the invasion route. It is NOT the same thing.
Another thing you don't comprehend is the fact that the Outbound light would have had their flight routes set up in advance, so if anything happened to them, Comstar would know where to look. So once they jumped to Huntress, they would pretty much know WHERE the Outbound was lost at. It would be limited to a few systems. OOOOPPPPSSS.
What? The game doesn't have the watch spying on the other clans in order to find their supplies? You mean they aren't the despicable IS counterparts? That each clan did not really think they needed to do such things, until after three of them started getting their butts stopped from being the jagernaut they thought they were? You say they were totally inept, but yet they did far more then you think they did.
The merchant caste is only partially part of each clan. The overall control of the ships is the grand council. Each clan has a limited amount of ships they 'own', and anything beyond that is hired. Another thing spelled out in the books that seems to have been missed.
As stated before, when you asked about the FS economy, it is stated in the NAIS review of the 4th war. It was shown a while back in one of the threads, and you said you didn't have access to them. Which is yet another reason why you don't understand things. You have not READ all the books. And the information in the Galtor campaign says directly the DC removed people from worlds they captured in order to ensure the locals don't give them grief. As done in history of the entire feudal society, so is it done in the IS.
Now saying the Piranha effect doesn't exist means you have no clue on the IS. But then you think removing all troops to form a major strike group is possible without opening up holes in your entire realm. The Piranha effect runs directly opposite of this concept, so you choose to ignore it.
Who said they had a detailed account of the IS military? They would have had some details and a lot of general information. The fact that any houses having warships would be recorded in the computer files as well as known by the crews. They would have military information, and such events as the FC becoming a reality. Really showing you haven't even thought of the most common issues thru, so the more complex leaves others wondering.
The entire premise of the alt is taking the end information and changing it so the canon version can't happen, then you say canon is wrong because the alt did this or that. Not my opinion, but the way it is written. I have been the vocal one calling this out, but not the only one that has seen it.
Oh, I don't know. Having the HPG network up and running would allow the IS invasion to keep in contact with the home worlds, as the Ilclan would need to do so, as they could not be in the IS and clan worlds at the same time. So they would need the HPG network up and running. The clan civilians were not seen until they started arriving in the FRR as the Ghost Bears were coming to stay. So your Psy ops wouldn't happen until AFTER the first few waves. Not as soon as they invaded, nor would it show any effects for a while. And what do you know, canon DID have those very things affect the clans. Again, it was just not the way you wanted.
Still not understanding the fuel isn't the issue with fusion engines. The materials needed to make them is. With the change from radioactives, it pretty much destroys the entire history of the IS. The skills required to make them was considered an issue as well. The fact the Defiance opened up their own Fusion engine manufacturing plant allowed them to increase the numbers of units they made.
Wick. Requiem has always changed to the alt when his 'facts' about canon are proven wrong. He has been using alt 'facts' to say canon is wrong. Not sure how long you have been following this conversation over several threads. I keep calling him out when the terms like 'only viable solution', 'can't possibly happen that way', 'I don't accept it', and others keep showing up, which keeps the discussion of canon can't be wrong as it uses the developers ideas and numbers, that don't match the alt.
I can tell you why the alt can't do those things. It means the alt is full of holes, and they could still hurt the FS. He is trying to rewrite the story so that can't happen.
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Requiem
09/12/20 08:32 AM
1.158.133.26
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I've scoured the source books for this information.
And when you do a thorough investigation ….and if you use an Xcel sheet …… Just for Independent Regiments you get the following …..Then consider the rules for each where you have stated a “probably a mix of mech and armor” it gets far more complicated …..
15 Royal CAAN Marine
9 Royal Light Horse - light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts.
40 Light Horse - light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts.
7 Royal Hussar - composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.
42 Hussar Regiment - composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.
8 Royal Dragoon - consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs, with each battalion having a fourth company of artillery
63 Dragoon - consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs, with each battalion having a fourth company of artillery
1 Dracon
3 Royal Striker - Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs and usually pairs of ASF.
20 Striker - Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs and usually pairs of ASF.
3 Royal Heavy Assault - consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs, with each battalion having a fourth company of artillery
15 Heavy Assault - consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs, with each battalion having a fourth company of artillery
18 Battle - consisting of medium-to-heavy weight 'Mechs.
4 Heavy Tank
1 Medium Tank
1 Light Tank
1 Royal Hover Armor
2 Hover Armor
1 wheeled Armor
2 Artillery Regiment
3 Mechanized Infantry
1 Jump Infantry
2 Marine Infantry
1 Royal French Demi
3 French Infantry
2 French Cavalry
1 Grunt Infantry
2 Royal Independent Aero Wing
13 Independent Aero Wing
When added to all the information for all 20 Army groups you get vastly different figures ….
So go to https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force and use a excell sheet …..
Then go through all the years and actually read about the units that the RWR sent to each of Periphery states as well as invading the Terran Hegemony …..
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So your claim of DCMS+Periphery taking on the SLDF doesn't work.
Did you ever consider that I realized this from the get go ….. why don’t you read the forum page entitled – Issues with regards to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War.
This is why I completed re-wrote everything …..stating my conspiracy to build all the forces necessary to defeat the SLDF shortly after the Reunification war and taking all this time to build a hidden army large enough ….. also during this the RWR brought the DC into the scheme to over throw the SLDF …… thus I completely ditched the Canon figures and came up with ones more conducive to upcoming war ……
Why anyone would assume I would use the Canon figures for a war of this scope is beyond me …..
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So 20 Year Update is both right and wrong?
The 20 year update is correct for its time - however for me I have killed off the CC and added in additional forces to compensate for the FC and St Ives
However all Canon books going forward from this time forward are not to be considered accurate …..
Go through every Battle and investigate the status of every FC unit that fought the Clans – keep a running tally as to their fate ….
Then subtract this from the 20 year update
Then see what you get ……
Also on a side note you will note that the FC only used about 8% of its available forces to engage against the Clans for the entire invasion – can anyone explain why?
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I said Smoke Jaguar may have made up a sufficiently high number (more than Wolf's Dragoons had estimated) to fool the rest of the Clan Council into immediate action.
The problem with using the Dragoons figures is that it is now nearing 30 years since it was received in 3019-20. Thus cannot be considered to be reliable – as for the outbound light, it is a civilian ship – wouldn’t every clan want to conduct an inquiry themselves – wouldn’t the grand council want to interrogate the CO and the XO within the chamber to authenticate the information the Jaguars are presenting within the chamber?
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we're arguing what's possible in the canon universe.
Fine …. You want to go there then lets go there ….
As noted above you do recognize that the 20 year update on page 19 states mech strength is 268 regiments and 1 battalion in 3050.
Thus being only 32 regiments short or the 300 ….
Battlefield damage as to the FC forces should be taken into consideration …. also
In killing off the CC – battle salvage alone I should be able to cobble together a minimum of 4-6 Regiments worth – In addition to this I also offered amnesty to any CC merc unit who would be willing to stand down during this war and allow their contract to be picked up by the FC – my bet I at least got 5-6 units who did not fight for the CC and decided to switch sides (at the minimum) …
this also gives me complete access to the CC military industrial complexes – ie. their BattleMech Manufacturing facilities for 10 years.
During this time I also get complete access to the CC economy …..
In all that time all I need to do is create is approximately 2.5 regiments per year utilizing the complete FC military industrial complex – and give the fact that no one can argue with numbers as there are no definitive numbers I made the unilateral decision that 750 Mechs per year was a reasonable out-put for the entire new FC to manufacture for an entire year to go towards increasing the military …. (why – we will need at least a 3 to 1 ratio before be kill off the DC – as I have cut a deal with the FWL – Victor and Isis have been betrothed as babies thus cementing a non aggression alliance with the FWL and an agreement to recognize Victor and Isis as the next First Lord of the IS with the re-establishment of the SL once the DC have been dealt with by the FC – so with a political alliance I amay even be able to purchase Mechs from the FWL at the same time –but even if I don’t include this it is still achievable to create the 300 with just the FC on its own)
As in all reality all we are doing is increasing the military budget a slight amount for BattleMechs when the real expense is going to Naval procurement and the establishment of new hidden dockyards ….
And before you say this is impossible may I remind you of the canon difference in CC military between the 20 year update and their next House Book that came out – which clearly shows that if the CC is managed correctly you can get this amount out of them ….. with just the CC military industrial complex on their own!
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but the Clans can't reciprocate to meet their needs?
Again you are putting words in my mouth as I did not say that – they are constrained by their Bids for military hardware.
For Civilian hardware they are constrained by their populations –one planet in one House can have a greater population than all the clans and the imbalance in workforce becomes evident …. 3062 Total Clan Population 1,151,525,500 – so only 1.15 Billion – and remember Rasalhague on its own has a population of 5 Billion – that’s close to 5 times the entire population of all the Clans …..so you can see why I state the idea of just one the Clans Garrisoning Rasalhague is a myth ….
There is a clear and evident disparity in production capabilities between the two – then the fact that the IS can reverse engineer clan tech and at the same time and they have also used their psy-opts teams to convince who knows how many techs to defect to the IS ….
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Are the Clans just simply not smart enough to perform a buildup to suit their needs?
Problem is there is no evidence to suggest they did …. So again lets guess …. But the fact remains they are constrained by their Bids and their society norms when it comes to war within the IS …..
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As I pointed out, the IS can't kill off the Clan pilots fast enough because they don't have the war material to do it.
Problem with your calculations …. And the Loss Depletion Report …
The is a number of Clan forces faced at any one time …
The fact that figures are based upon battles only ….
They do not take into consideration losses due to partisan assassinations / IEDs … remember that once you crunch the numbers most garrisons would have to be at trinary level otherwise your forces on the front lines will deplete too fast to actually reach terra as your Clan forces numbers are constrained by your original bid!
They do not take into consideration the losses sustained when IS forces attack clans transport ships carrying replacement personnel
They also do not take in consideration losses due to psy-ops teams convincing freeborn techs etc and PGCs to defect to the IS.
Also it does not take into consideration what happens when the IS is able to reverse engineer Clan Tech and mass produce it for their own forces …
It also does not take into consideration the shift in the infantry – 100% sneak suits + Jump + SRM (Hellfire) and what happens when a gum manufacture builds a sniper rifle and uranium depleted round for the rifle and it is built en mass for all infantry forces within the IS ….. barbeque Toad all round!
It also does not take into consideration what happens when tactics change from the duels to that of the attrition warfare …
It also does not take into consideration what happens if one of the clans goes too far and kills off a massive population similar to Kentares (and the Jags could do it! – their culture is just too alien to consider the Ares Convention Treaties)
What happens if any of the Houses gets so enraged by the clans that they switch to First Succession War Tactics and the being whole scale nuclear war …..
Time to face facts the Loss depletion report will be way higher than anything your espousing
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When the Truce of Tukayyid expired, the Clans would resume devastating the Inner Sphere and the IS really wouldn't have been ready to stop them.
Which demonstrates how badly written the story is (again in my opinion)
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they don't have the machines to turn the tide
Then where did all the new IS Mechs come from in regards to the all the TROs past 3050 …..
Sorry to say but there appears to be a massive misunderastaning as to production numbers – but this is the point – when there are no production numbers given you can just make up whatever you want and say that because I said so you have to agree with it!
Anyone can say anything and as long as it is half way plausible it can be considered to be viable ….
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The Inner Sphere's unlimited personnel resource is hampered by a limited production capacity.
This is why I stated that all houses should shift to Total War production or something close to it – as seen in WW2 with Rosie the Riveter – posters making a come back! Which is exactly what stage 1 is! Or and as for small arms – no this is why you have Infantry armed with sneak suits and jump jets and SPMs (Hellfire) and sniper rifles to go Toad hunting!
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And I've no idea how IS soldiers would be able to kill any pilots of the home clans with snipers and IEDs.
This is why you have a 100 year war! With multiple wars on multiple fronts throughout the Deep Periphery between the two realms!
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just to make Mr Requiem right. Truly astounding powers these Spheroids in your home campaigns must have.
Levity and sophistry and opinions based upon ……?
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Now pirates don't have money either?
It is not about having money - it is about what you do with that money!
Merchant Class Jump-Ship – Cost 384,711,675 C-bills
Why bother spending the money on a Jump-ship when you can emigrate to anywhere in the IS and live the good life?
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canon is rife with refugees moving to other plants (such as FRR citizens fleeing to the Illyrian Palatinate) - if refugee groups can afford to transport half way across the Inner Sphere (dozens of jumps), why can't a pirate group afford to make two jumps (there and back)?
If this is so then can you explain to ghostrider why I can produce a massive armada to strike at the clans to being my war of attrition?
Can someone please make up their mind – does the IS either have an adequate supply of Jumpships to allow all the menial things get done + all the military – or is the an absence of them making them rare thus restricting the IS’s movement of people and military at any one point in time …. As there is no information on the subject as to the number of ships available who is right? …..
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The presence of garrison troops on backwater worlds indicates pirates are at least common enough to warrant their necessity.
And it also could be political – showing the flag – keeping the local populations in order / rule of law – in order to maintain tax and good order / make sure the local governor / lord is not up to something they shouldn’t be …..
It is not only about what is beyond the border it is also what is within the border that you need your military out there ….
As for pirates …. When you have decided on the availability of Jumpships let me know as this will determine the scale of damage they can inflict …..
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Let's do some more math here.
• The Pirate force has only one working Merchant Jumpship and that one is in need of an over haul for the past 50 years – that means they can only attach two dropships – however their dropships are also in need of repair
• How much damage can this one pirate ship do if the FC are hunting for it and know the approximate location of its next target – or better yet in 3007 (approx) the FC re-contract the Dragoons to wipe Tortuga clean once more?
Numbers Tonto! ….. how many ships (Jump and Drop) and in what quality …. And who are they owned by?
You want raider groups then work it out!
The problem is there are no figures there is only conjecture – even in the Cannon Universe does anyone know how many pirate groups are operational at any one point in time?
So again – work it out – how many and who and where?
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Pirates need only wait an average of twelves weeks in this scenario for a jumpship to come along
Only on well established routes – and then there is the pesky problem of where they jumped into the jump point as they could be 100 km away or 10,000 Km away from you when they arrive – as we must remember that space is a vast area – thus turning your idea of waiting for a jump-ship to come along into a crap shoot as to how far away it is and the time it would take to get out to it as well as how good (range) their radar is thus turning your surprise raid into a hot charge of the engine to jump out and escape your pirate group as they do not have surprise and location on their side.
Thus turning your possibility of pirates hitching a ride / capturing a ride into a massive crap game due to the tyranny of distance once more! (ie plausible story into an implausible story – roll a D10,000 and chose 1 number to see how far away they are.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/12/20 09:06 AM
1.158.133.26
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You really do not understand balance beyond everyone having the same units, numbers and all around equipment. The social generals in the game kept the LC from using their economic might to just roll over the other houses.
Is this seen anywhere in the real world?
What about the Clans and their weapons / speed / armor / piloting / gunnery – how fair was that?
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The only way to gain more then three kills is to start a grand melee sort of fight.
And if you are really lucky you could do it without starting one – if you are very lucky and you roll back to back head shots then what? Statistically speaking it is possible ….
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Do you understand combat experience?
You do know what happens to a person’s body as they get older and how the neron pathways begin to degrade thus the persons reaction time begins to slow dramatically when they get to Natasha’s age – thus a 20 something pilot with faster reaction skills will just walk over her – question in which army do you see fighter pilots who are in their late 60’s early 70’s?
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The clans are NOT like anything in history.
Yes they are … the more things change the more things stay the same!
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You mean each clan did not divide their route into sections in order to adhere to the order of no one ship had the entire route in their jump computers?
May routes at either end – one route along the centre ….
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Another thing you don't comprehend is the fact that the Outbound light would have had their flight routes set up in advance
Sorry but no …. This is why you have scientists on board and large computers are on board to assist with jump calculations – each ship must have a degree of autonomy as the computers / observatories within the Inner Sphere cannot see behind the Nebula protecting the Clan home worlds so it is up to each ship to determine their own course.
Also if they did have a route provided by ComStar this would point to the fact that the Dragoons gave it to them!
So no Comstar doesn’t have a clue as to the exact location of the Outbound light ….
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The game doesn't have the watch spying on the other clans in order to find their supplies?
Thus showing how limited the game is
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The merchant caste is only partially part of each clan. The overall control of the ships is the grand council.
Where does it say this? – they are pare to their own Clan
Is this all you want to do - drag everything back to Canon and never alow anyone to express any freedom of thought?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/12/20 01:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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So part one of the logic failure comes from not wanting the SL to fall to Amaris now becomes the DC and Amaris destroying the SL. Granted, the idea that Kerensky must die, and not take the SLDF out into the periphery means no clans can be formed.
Then the succession wars would not have been done as they did, or were far worse as the only time nukes would stop falling is when all sides were out of the materials needed to make them. But then someone puts in a ban on those sorts of weapons and all sides stick to it. Failure on a grand scale with this one.
So with the three houses against the FS and LC, he wants the FC to form and take over the IS, but in this scenario, those hosues would be more like the CC or a minor periphery realm, as they would not face the haphazard attacks, and a full on combined and coordinated attack from the three, and worse, no conflict between the CC and FWL. So even more of those nations forces pouring into the FS/LC borders. With the Periphery on the side of the RWR, there is no real way the FS/LC could survive this, as things like Defiance would fall to the others. There would be no way to reinforce it, as the first goal of the others would be cut off both realms from Terra and each other, while taking worlds around Defiance to remove any sort of help to prevent it from falling. And yet the same characters that are alive in the story in 3025 would still be born and have a chance to do anything.
Another example of the canon is wrong because the alt says it is. The 20 year update is wrong because I took out the CC in the 4th war, or finished it in the 3039 war. Given the DC/RWR/CC/FWL scenario, this wouldn't even be possible. This is just another in a long line of issues that continue and open up more logic issues in the 'perfect' game.
Yet another false statement given from the fact you don't know how the clans actually work. The clans can build up 20 more clans worth of men and machines, just as long as they are not added into the invasion forces without a new bid, or going to the bid before hand. You hate the fact that security things like PGCs are not part of the bid, and can be of ANY size. Forces positioned in the periphery outside of the 'invasion point' are also not part of the bid, and can be used to defend any sort of push towards the home worlds.
Now another big logic failure. There is no evidence in canon that the clans did some sort of build up of forces, yet the alt completely changes the fact that the clans were not even remotely successful in invading the IS, so their adding new units would not happen. And he doesn't see the failure here. Then again, without the truce battle, the invasion route would not have been found out from Trent, as his comstar contact was his bondsman taken during that conflict, would not have happened.
Wow. Now pirates have to buy the jumpships they have. No wonder his idea of how they work is screwed up. The only thing pirates would have to pay for is upkeep to jumpships as they would steal them. Which is why some groups do not have their own. Try explaining why you have a stolen jumpship in for repairs right after they had a run in with some defense forces in another system. And yet they can't be like anyone else and use a slew of ways to gain jump transport to another world. Pirates are black marketeers. They provide the items for sale. Hmmm... Wonder where they get their money to do things like purchase transport and such. Some are poor. That is not questioned. But classifying them as woodsman that sneak into the cities to steal some beer isn't true. The better ones are run like a merc unit. Not all are set up for just stealing what isn't nailed down, and bringing crowbars to take that as well. Some do it just to pay back the others for insults and bad treatment.
As you don't seem to really comprehend the entire concept of merchants using jumpships to keep worlds in supplies needed to survive, and that by doing as the FS did for the 4th war, and conscripting them, destroys the ability for any sort of supplies being moved, the idea of making a huge fleet of them is beyond stupid. It is the merchants that keep the IS going in necessary supplies, not the government and the military. The governement does HIRE those merchants to bring in supplies to some that are desperate, but you just seized all of them, and sent them out against the enemy. So your worlds will die, as they are moved, and for some, if not most facing an enemy that is known to destroy jumpships, they will not be returning. But some how, this does not register on why you can't do this. The misconcepts that the leader can just wipe out worlds in order to fulfill their whims doesn't work. This would be doing the enemy a favor, as they don't need supply line raiders in order to stop you from doing anything.
And yet another misconception shows up. The IS does not have enough ships to satisfy the merchants and the military. This is why having to conscript merchant ships for war is needed. There is some freelance merchants that ply something other then dedicated routes, but the military always has less then desired. If you had even used any sort of comprehension reading the books this would be glowing in bright lights with warning sirens going off. But then this requires having to read what is there, and not what you want to have there.
3025 the wiki and the book jumpships and dropships says 2-3k jumpships are average for the IS. It says that most jumpship production barely puts out more then is lost in each year. This was already shown in the past, which is why I question you bothering to read anything but what you want in the books.
As stated when discussing this, the number sounds more like each house, not the entire IS, as there could not be worlds that require dedicated runs with this low of a number. And it say that in the wiki that the number seems low.
Oh yeah. Only a fool would consider ships that pirates possess should be considered towards the numbers needed to run the nations needs. Much like suggesting the numbers the CC or DC have would cover the FS needs.
Again, the extremist views say ALL pirates are the same. Just like all people are the same. Some have the very things of machines on the verge of breaking down from a simple fist into the side, while others have machines in better shape then some house troops. So the answer is there is no standard set.
As said, those numbers change as well. Some pirate hunting expeditions remove some, while lack of pay or being stranded behind enemy lines being a main reason why more become pirates. Asteroid fields becomes a haven for pirates, and I have yet to see many systems that don't have some. So not all need to go out of system to do their raiding. And for show of the flag, that tends to be when nobles demand protection of an RCT where there is already a pair guarding their palace. And remember. These are the very units you are suggesting being stripped and sent out, as they aren't needed to protect worlds.
Another false statement. Even if you are on one edge of the jump area, and the ship jumps in on the other, the dropships the pirates are using will catch any ship that doesn't have an emergency charge, as even the slowest dropshisp can catch a jumpship using thrusters. Hell, most can travel from worlds in the system to the jump area and catch the jumpship. So your math major is failing here. Not many commercial jumpships got batteries for the second jump. And that is even AFTER they were reintroduced into the IS.
Hot charges requires more then a few minutes. Even a few days would give the pirates time to catch you.
Let's see. Surprise, coms black outs helped prevent the wave of units catching them, and there are a few real world examples of inept generals keeping rich countries from just rolling over their neighbors. History is has more then a few, otherwise, we would all be speaking one language. General Custer of the U.S remind you of something?
And normally it isn't so much the generals, but the actual leaders that cause the issue.
But this was done BEFORE the clans arrived. But this was discussed a while back. Each house had some flaws and some strong points. It was balanced somewhat to keep the game from being a cakewalk for any one house.
I am wondering if you call every game bs as they all have the same sort of concept going. Even your loved gundam wing has this issue. Otherwise, why would the gundams be needed?
The clans better weapons and warriors are balanced by the lack of fast numbers of replacement warriors, as well as distance to their supplies, and the entire way they are used to fighting. But only the numbers count in your mind. The CC was the weakest in military. Yet some how they had other things to keep them from being steamrollered. Oh yeah. In order to attack them, their neighbors had to remove forces protecting other areas of their nations opening that up to attacks from other enemies. This is the Piranha effect you say doesn't exist.
This is a war game. Fair is not part of wars going on.
The moment you fire on the other persons assigned targets, you start the grand melee effect. Marthe removed Aidan from becoming a warrior because it allowed her to shoot him. Clan warriors do not take to having you steal their kills at all. You could well become a star colonel, only to be killed by the person you took their kills from. Had Phelan not agreed to let Natasha take some of his, he would have died, and she would not have been a star colonel on her return.
Active line combat pilots are different, then just having old pilots in an army. Most of the older ones are colonels and training pilots. This is done not because of degregation of body, but the fact that once you get to a certain rank, you tend to be removed from the combat roster. There are some that are that good that then can still fight better then those 30 or so years younger then they are. Reactions are only part of it. Knowing the tricks and where the opponent can go makes up a large portion of combat experience. You know how to target them without needing to do a 9 g turn.
Never in history has their been a military that was light years separated from others, which were genetically grown in basically test tubes, and put under such harsh conditions to learn how to fight. So no. Never has there been anything like the clans.
So they all used the same route in the middle, which means they could raid each others supplies without really needing to do anything but sit there? Why does this sound like a bunch of bs?
Really? The Dragoons would have to have given them the location of the home worlds, as Comstar was searching the deep periphery for any signs of the SLDF? And that during exploration making a grid where multiple ships do not continue to go over areas another ship has gone would not be implemented?
Now the really questionable part of the Dragoon statement. Why would you be SEARCHING for the home worlds if you had a map showing where they were. Huntress was not built in the time the Dragoons were away from the home worlds. Good logic uses here.
Freedom of thought? The alt is nothing more then a way to say canon is wrong. The presentation of how it is done is the whole issue with the alt. Canon is wrong because the alt says it is. That is the message from day one. It hasn't changed. You want to show an alternative, remove phrases like only viable solutions and there is no way they could have done this or that. It is presented in the way to say canon developers have no right to even suggest their game go this way. So the motto of the alt is that the freedom of the developers to say this is what happened in their game is being told it is wrong. Not getting the irony of this?
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Wick
09/13/20 02:55 AM
173.247.25.195
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Did you ever consider that I realized this from the get go ….. why don’t you read the forum page entitled – Issues with regards to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War.
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1 Armored Division Remained
32 BattleMech Divisions Remained
76 Infantry Divisions Remained
63 Independent Regiments Remained
Total 172 Regiments remained …..
This is my point. You've based your entire assessment on this error.
Each division is nine regiments, not one. Three brigades of three regiments each. 1 x 9 + 32 x 9 + 76 x 9 + 63 = 1044 regiments
And if you mean Battlemech regiments only, then Star League page 133 specifically states that there's a Battlemech brigade in each of the infantry divisions (so 3 regiments per Infantry division) and two brigades in the Battlemech divisions (6 regiments per Battlemech division). 32 x 6 + 76 + 3 = 420 mech regiments, not even counting the armored division or independents.
So when I said
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SLDF alone is approximately 480 regiments of mechs, based on what was left in 2785 at time of Exodus
I was in the ballpark, assuming the majority of the independents are Battlemech. You were way short because you did the math wrong.
Still, even with 420, they dwarf any House army. You said so yourself (and I agree with at least the House numbers) you provided:
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House Army BattleMech Units as at 2765
RWR ………………….144 Regiments in the TH – considered to be half of their total forces
AFFS………………….110 Regiments.
DCMS………………….115 Regiments
FWLM…………………95 Regiments
CCAF………………….92 Regiments
LCAF…………………. 90 Regiments Total House Numbers is at 502 Regiments (Compared to the SLDF’s 1,708 Regiments at the beginning of the war and the 215 Regiments at its end)
The logic says you can't decrease the SLDF from 1708 to 420-480 fighting nobody - they got reduced this far because they had to fight the TDF, MAF, AMC, and RWA. So you can't give the RWR either 144 or 288 regiments in 2785 and also take away the 1200+ from the SLDF. Either they both have what they had before the war, or they both don't.
If the SLDF is 1708 mech regiments in in 2765, then DCMS and all four periphery states combined only add up to the low 700s. If the SLDF is 420-480 in 2785, then DCMS and the remaining three periphery states combine to only about 168. In either case, the SLDF dwarfs the DCMS and periphery alliance.
So don't be an **** and tell other people that they are wrong and need to use Excel spreadsheets, or say that the original author group got it wrong, when you make such a foolish error in your own arithmetic. Shame on you for not double checking your work before proclaiming yourself as smarter than everyone else.
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This is why you have a 100 year war!
I'm not even going to debate having a 100 year war when the canon framework gives them less than 30.
As I said, the AFFC, DCMS, and RKA lost 110 regiments in two years of fighting. Thus, they have to build 55 regiments a year to maintain parity. If you want to claim this as possible, I don't have any way to thoroughly disprove it. But the Inner Sphere NEVER had this production capacity in the past - not during the Reunification War, not during the Amaris Civil War, and not during the First Succession War. If they had the capability to ramp up to 55 regiments a year, why didn't they during these three major crises? You can make excuses that the Inner Sphere will gain technical equivalency (which they still hadn't done 100 years later in canon) or be able to assassinate huge numbers of the Clan pilots without the Clans developing a counterstrategy, but these are huge assumptions. I'm basing my position only on the canon history, not Rosie the Riveter, superhuman assassins, and what-ifs.
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And I've no idea how IS soldiers would be able to kill any pilots of the home clans with snipers and IEDs. They can't get their soldiers within 1000 light years of homeworld Clanners in the 3050s, let alone close enough to pick them off with a rifle or plant a bomb. Yet, they find a way to do just that so the Clan pilot count can be reduced by something like half (i.e., tens of thousands of assassinations) just to make Mr Requiem right. Truly astounding powers these Spheroids in your home campaigns must have.
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Levity and sophistry and opinions based upon ……?
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What happens when they do conquer a world with a population of 5 Billion – they know they cannot affect the population so what do they do – remain penned up in their garrison whist the surrounding civilians pick them off with sniper rifles and IEDs.
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problem is if the IS can kill off the Clans Pilots faster than their sibkos can graduate them the Clans are going to find themselves with a stockpile of mechs with no one to pilot them!
Your opinion apparently. You proposed assassinations as the way to reduce the Clan pilot population enough so that the IS doesn't have to build 55 regiments a year to maintain attrition. Yet you provided absolutely no insight as to how IS soldiers assassinate pilots on the Clan homeworlds (let alone berthed in their dropships or transport vessels and safely out of reach.) Thus, they must have some kind of superpowers to assassinate at will across thousands of light years distance. Its not sophistry to say this is absolutely impossible for mere mortals.
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Can someone please make up their mind – does the IS either have an adequate supply of Jumpships to allow all the menial things get done + all the military – or is the an absence of them making them rare thus restricting the IS’s movement of people and military at any one point in time …. As there is no information on the subject as to the number of ships available who is right? …..
There are obviously enough to do commerce and move military assets around in normal situations or else the nations would collapse into independent planets. But if a significant portion of jumpships are pulled off their trade routes, then commerce suffers. Federated Suns saw this happen when many commercial jumpships were requisitioned by the military during the Fourth Succession War.
If 3000 total jumpships is the right number, and Mercenary's Handbook says 46% of total and 51% of military are Invaders as of 3055, that puts the number of military-owned ships at 2705 and non-military at just 295.
But people have done analysis on this (I remember an old post at BT forum) and indicated this isn't anywhere close enough to even feed certain worlds, let alone do meaningful commerce. Even if the military-owned jumpships serviced commercial traffic when not needed for military assets (most units stay on station for many months or even years during peacetime, so perhaps 2-3% of jumpship traffic is for military purposes), it may still not be enough. It would indicate exceptional rarity outside of the Houses and major Periphery realms though and so you may have a case here for rarity. (See, I can throw you a bone when the canon data actually supports your case.) But it also makes the existence of small periphery realms or independent plants like Astrokazy and Randis very hard to explain. There has to be enough traffic to justify not just their existence, but relative success. With only 295 available, the vast majority operating in House space and most of the remainder operating in the major Periphery realms, they've left only maybe 10 to service the entire remainder of the Periphery. Stories about trading missions, convoys, and societies like the Jarnfolk make such a low number contradictory.
Even the Sarna article ( https://www.sarna.net/wiki/JumpShip#Manufacturing ) has a note on how the number is inadequately too low. So no ones going to be able to give you a straight answer without it being contradicted by another source, and the line developers have never really answered it clearly. This is rightfully one of the things for which you can accuse the authors and developers of wrecklessness.
So given that there's no certain way to answer the rarity question, I'm going to back out of this part of the argument. I'm not conceding that you are correct and I still personally believe that part of the job of garrison troops is to defend against pirates. But If you want to argue that most garrison troops are only for show, not to fight pirates, and could be reassigned to front-line, then its hard to dispute that at least Mercenary Handbook gives you some right to do so with minimal consequences. Its thin ice, however.
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Only on well established routes – and then there is the pesky problem of where they jumped into the jump point as they could be 100 km away or 10,000 Km away from you when they arrive – as we must remember that space is a vast area – thus turning your idea of waiting for a jump-ship to come along into a crap shoot as to how far away it is and the time it would take to get out to it as well as how good (range) their radar is thus turning your surprise raid into a hot charge of the engine to jump out and escape your pirate group as they do not have surprise and location on their side.
Thus turning your possibility of pirates hitching a ride / capturing a ride into a massive crap game due to the tyranny of distance once more! (ie plausible story into an implausible story – roll a D10,000 and chose 1 number to see how far away they are.
If it takes roughly 190 hours at minimum between jumps, a distance of 10000 km is only averaging 53 kilometers per hour. Yawn. Dropships are well known to go exceptionally faster than this. That jumpship could appear millions of kilometers away and the pirates have still got plenty of time.
In fact, if a habitable world like Terra is available as a base, at around a similar 9.12 days transit time to a jump point, they could push their engines at a little more than 1G and still intercept it before it escaped, regardless of whether the jumpship had popped in at zenith or nadir. Its not like the pirates have to sit around and wait or roll the dice on which jump point it would appear at. Typical pirate group could be doing whatever they do most days, get notice from deep space radar that a large EM pulse was detected at either jump point, then hop in their dropship, push to 1.25G and rendezvous with it before it jumped away. Just about 100% of the time the rendezvous could be made. If you want to play craps with these odds, I'm game.
Now if you want to bicker over the success rate of hijacks, that's certainly less than 100%. But not rendezvous - that's the easy part.
And the hot-charging bit to get away wouldn't work. It takes 2-3 hours to roll up the jump sail and if the pirate dropship runs radio-silent, the jumpship won't see them coming until about the last hour, when the fusion engines become bright enough to be detectable in infrared (and later visually) over the background starfield. You can hot-charge to get away if you know danger is coming in an day or two, but an hour or two just isn't enough time to prepare an emergency jump. Unless you want to abandon your jump sail and be stranded in the next system.
Edited by Wick (09/13/20 02:59 AM)
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Requiem
09/13/20 05:20 AM
1.158.133.26
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You have finally proven what I have long surmised, rather than considering a point of view – make something up, attack the author or just rant and rave about how you are destroying the game by attacking the TPTB ….
the logic failure comes from not wanting the SL to fall to Amaris …. the idea that Kerensky must die …. – Clearly your opinions Ghostrider as they are ot mine, as I have never posted my story on this subject ….
Failure on a grand scale with this one. – your opinion again?
And the next - your opinion as I have never stated how far the changes have been made.
Another example of the canon is wrong because the alt says it is. – unwillingness to even investigate?
Yet another false statement given from the fact you don't know how the clans actually work.- attack me rater than the subject even after this has been discussed and re-discussed how many times now based upon the interpretation of what was written and no clear explanation as to the meaning behind it?
Wow. Now pirates have to buy the jumpships they have. – Comprehension of what was written is taken out f context so as to discredit what is attempted to be discussed.
As you don't seem to really comprehend the entire concept of merchants using jumpships to keep worlds in supplies needed to survive, and that by doing as the FS did for the 4th war, and conscripting them, destroys the ability for any sort of supplies being moved, - unwillingness to even comprehend the legitimacy that if it occurred in the past that it can be used in the future to same or if not greater effect …..
And yet another misconception shows up. The IS does not have enough ships to satisfy the merchants and the military. – please read what wick wrote below on this …
But then this requires having to read what is there, and not what you want to have there.
Oh yeah. Only a fool would consider ships that pirates possess should be considered towards the numbers needed to run the nations needs.
These are the very units you are suggesting being stripped and sent out, as they aren't needed to protect worlds.
Another false statement.
And normally it isn't so much the generals, but the actual leaders that cause the issue.
The clans better weapons and warriors are balanced by the lack of fast numbers of replacement warriors, as well as distance to their supplies, and the entire way they are used to fighting. But only the numbers count in your mind. – and yet there is no evidence of tis within the invasion so where is the balance now?
In order to attack them, their neighbors had to remove forces protecting other areas of their nations opening that up to attacks from other enemies. – unwillingness to even listen to my response no matter how mant times I attempted
The moment you fire on the other persons assigned targets, you start the grand melee effect. – Comprehension of what was written --- fire head shot mech down -- next one enters second duel starts and also ends with a head shot - thid one enters and it too ends with a head shot …. No grand melee …. Just a normal Trial of position …..
Statistically speaking it is possible, though unlikely ….
Most of the older ones are colonels – unwilling to understand or concede a point that is obvious – the clans are youth orientated with the degradation of the human body due to age would any young Clansman sit by and allow an older warrior to maintain a senior post or a blood name when they can just kill him in a circle of equals and take it ? …… remember these are Mongols we are discussing. (seen any 80 year old fighter pilots yet?)
which means they could raid each others supplies without really needing to do anything but sit there – safecon until they arrive in the IS did you ever consider this?
Really? The Dragoons would have to have given them the location of the home worlds, as Comstar was searching the deep periphery for any signs of the SLDF? – again did you even bother to comprehend what was written before jumping into a tangent
Freedom of thought? The alt is nothing more then a way to say canon is wrong. – unwillingness to listen to what another has to say ….
Yes I will concede I made an error mathematically … going too fast can cause problems – but wick when you point out errors in such a way be careful for the day to come when others will point out yours – for there are many ….. even in this post ….
Either they both have what they had before the war, or they both don't. – or you totally rewrite everything ….
I'm not even going to debate having a 100 year war when the canon framework gives them less than 30. - as stated how many times and how many forums this is Alt history not a homage to all things Canon.
Yet you provided absolutely no insight as to how IS soldiers assassinate pilots on the Clan homeworlds – because there is a 100 year war raging throughout the deep periphery, thus during the intial invasion how can they as it is clearly stated they never make de it to the Clan Home Worlds – as this is an Alt Universe …..
But If you want to argue that most garrison troops are only for show, not to fight pirates, and could be reassigned to front-line - Politics.
then its hard to dispute that at least Mercenary Handbook gives you some right to do so with minimal consequences. Its thin ice, however. – gee thanks!
If it takes roughly 190 hours at minimum between jumps, a distance of 10000 km is only averaging 53 kilometers per hour.- pardon?
That jumpship could appear millions of kilometers away and the pirates have still got plenty of time. - problem is you have to find it with the liited radar available – that said what is the radar range on a commercial Jumpship and even at full velocity how long will it take for a dropship to arrive even if it could find a needle in a haystack when said haystack is 10,000 KM wide and they could be moving under their own thrust ….. and not sitting idly by so can you explain how pirates have a radar that has a range of 10,000 Km so that they can go straight for the prize from whence they began?
Still how does a hijack occur if Jump-ships’ Captain Knows that he is entering a known pirate area and begins hot-charging from the get go or has a battery that enables two jumps?
And what happens if this Jumpship is carrying a military unit and they decide to send out the fighters?
So again there are multiple reasons why this does not work …..
What this proves to me is an unwillingness to consider another point of view even when it is clearly stated that this is an alt forum …. I went into the local game store and have found a new game, you have proven to me that Battletech will never be what it was ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/13/20 01:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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The IS not having clan tech is a sore point for me. The excuse given to why they don't is poor at best. I have said it before that some tech would have been absolutely done, even if all of it wasn't. The half weight launchers, double sinks, and probably the Endosteel/Ferrous armor being some of the main ones that would have been made. The xl engines would probably be yet another. I believe since tanks don't build heat with the launchers, the developers had to leave that out, as it would absolutely destroy the mechs king of the battlefield position. Imagine an SRM carrier with twice the launchers.
The cost of it is NOT holding up, especially with more pricier equipment that was made, such as the xxxl engine.
He believes that the Clans will not just start wiping out populations as assassins start taking a toll on their troops. And that everyone has some sort of heavy weapons system tucked under their pillows. Where assassins being snuck onto a world a few times would have some advantages, once it happened a few times, the clans would stop all travel between worlds, and make sure ALL personnel that had to, was watched closely. Any sort of sign of a weapon would result in their deaths as well as anyone else that was part of the ships compliment.
And yet he wants to ban all bombardments, which was the end result of Turtle Bay becoming so unruly. Logic fail.
make something up, attack the author or just rant and rave. This part of the sentence is what you have done with the entire alt thread. Still not getting the fact that when you say canon can't possibly be right, and push the alt as the only way it could be, is why the entire alt concept has been said to be nothing more then a developer thrashfest.
the logic failure comes from not wanting the SL to fall to Amaris …. the idea that Kerensky must die ….
Never posted this? The whole idea of the DC with the periphery attacking the SL suggests that the SL will fall to Amaris and the others, as well as Kerensky must stay and fight suggests he must die. Simple logic seems to fail in the comprehensive reading, or maybe you don't really read anything that is printed, including your own posts. Somehow the major conspiracies and such are said to be within the lines of the canon print, like the Political century being about social generals in the clans, yet nothing is even close to that 'fact'. Then suggesting that the alt does not have the flaws of canon, yet does not completely move away from canon is another flaw in itself.
I disagree with the way the alt is presented, as it suggests nothing more then canon is wrong and the alt proves it. There are more then a few valid questions on what happened, but it isn't presented like that.
And the next - your opinion as I have never stated how far the changes have been made.
You have indeed stated how far things changed, and still the events of the future didn't. The entire fact the clans could not have come into existence, but yet continue to suggest canon is wrong, is yet another logic failure. Yet again. You seem to think this is not the case.
Yet another false statement given from the fact you don't know how the clans actually work.- attack me rater than the subject even after this has been discussed and re-discussed how many times now based upon the interpretation of what was written and no clear explanation as to the meaning behind it?
One of the first statements made by you, was you didn't understand the clans. Then when using the canon print, you said it wasn't possible and only the alt was. Again, had you not added in things like can't possibly be the way it is, makes the whole thread about the alt showing canon is wrong. Canon can not be wrong for the game presented by the developers of that game. Lots of issues with consistency, for sure.
Besides renting and stealing jumpships, what other option is there to use one? Saying the pirates can't rent them, and stealing them doesn't work for long, there is another option besides buy them?
So not learning that you would destroy your economy, which is needed to keep funding your military to remove an enemy, means you would destroy it on a more permanent scale. And with this, make it that much easier for your enemies to move in and take it all. And with all the jumpships being in the clans area, there would be no way to even attempt to deal with the enemy incursions on other borders or even deep in your nation.
Pirates will explode when there is no way to really stop them from stealing things. Once you remove the law in the area, anarchy will reign, even if the other nations don't move in. But then the piranha effect doesn't exist, so this can't possibly happen. Still not seeing the logic here?
The entire game of the IS and periphery has a shortage of ships to keep all moving. The idea of pushing jumps is why there is a problem with maintainance. Instead of taking their time to do things like deploy and retract the sails, they push to get it done, so they can try to make an extra jump a year to try and satisfy the needs to get things moved. If there were the correct amount of jumpships, then no world would have to worry about getting the supplies needed. The entire ban on destroying them would never have had to be agreed upon, nor kept in force.
Something that might really show up, had you even attempted to do the Defiance equipment concept, as to prove you had done more then just put in numbers so suggest this is wrong. But then having numbers down would allow others to do as you do. Say they are wrong, and only their numbers are correct. For canon, this is very much true. The developers numbers are correct.
You have said multiple times that all forces should be in one location. How can you possibly defend all your lands when everything is in the on location? You need time to get anywhere, and to even suggest the local defense forces would slow them down negates having all your forces in one location. But some how this logic fail isn't registering.
This is a failure of the writer, not what is written. Yet the entire alt is completely fixing all issues with canon.
And once you take down something after the third target assigned to you, you start the melee. And that will mean the other warrior looking for a position will be allowed to take you down. Even the simple first shot on the others targets frees up the rest to hunt you together. And head shot scenario is possible, but that is the rare exception. You are suggesting all the warriors can just shoot more then their 3 targets. Most can't even take out one, much less 3. Going for more is even less likely.
You do know that safecon is not guaranteed? And that a clan looking to resupply before they get slammed would not allow it? The books say they made their own routes to avoid such an issue. But again, anything in the books is absolutely wrong in your mind as it was made by the developers. The entire pattern has show this. And given the Mongol way, you should protect your supplies as it is a sign of weakness to rely on the charity of others not to follow their nature and just take it. So do the clans follow their Mongol ways, and just take what they want? Or ignore the enemy gaining what is needed to continue the fight, while your forces flounder?
Did you really suggest someone watch out how quick they are to point out another mistakes? The alt is based on you doing this to the developers, and then saying the same thing when proof is presented that you don't like. Most of the argument is a rehash of things in the past, and the statement of everything but the alt being wrong. NO one knows anything about anything but you has come up a few times. Military would never/always would do this or that. Philosophy, human nature, distance issues, resources and all that have been said that only what you think is correct. Nothing else is possible.
Interesting. So far, the alt threads have been canon is wrong, and only the alt is right. Trying to hide behind the title and say this is about presenting an alternative way, but nothing happens but canon is wrong comes from it. A duck is a duck comes to mind...
Sending out fighters is only possible if you have some with you. So circumstantial. But the use of fighters and shuttles works both ways. Simply having some set out in a pattern around the jump point, and even a semi schedule would have the pirates knowing approximately when you come in, would shut down the argument of now knowing where in the area a jumpship comes in. And batteries? Most commercial jumpships do not have them. It is an added cost most can NOT afford. Maybe something owned by Defiance or another large corporation, but for most backwater or periphery worlds, they would not be there.
You found a new game and battletech will never be as it one was, but you continue to say it was wrong all together, and tried to push everyone into trying to say canon is wrong and only your vision is right?
And that statement is a lie anyways. You had Robotech, Warhammer and others. You were trying to suggest the game be more like them, but one of them sued the developers. Where is the logic in this? The perfect logic that only you have been able to come up with?
So before trying to say you are presenting an alt, learn how to present it properly. Starting off with canon is wrong is not how to start.
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Wick
09/14/20 08:30 PM
173.247.25.195
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Yes I will concede I made an error mathematically … going too fast can cause problems – but wick when you point out errors in such a way be careful for the day to come when others will point out yours – for there are many ….. even in this post ….
But I'm not repeatedly insulting others for my mistakes by using snooty comments like 'try again', 'next time do x' and childish phrases like that.
And I'm man enough to accept when I've made a mistake. You continued to dispute yours several times until I had to provide your own quote against you. I didn't need to 'try again' or do anything different 'next time' because I did it right the first time, and you were too stuck up to take your advice to double check your work.
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or you totally rewrite everything ….
And abandon your case for a more reasonable history than what was presented? Like I said, 1700 mech regiments just doesn't disappear without a fight.
Unless the DCMS and Amaris supporters can suddenly eliminate off the SLDF's numerical superiority without any losses of thier own. Since this is the same argument you're making with the Clans, I guess there's no changing your mind on it. But you won't change my mind into beleiving things like magic and superhuman abilities exist in your alt universe to explain rebalancing military power.
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Still how does a hijack occur if Jump-ships’ Captain Knows that he is entering a known pirate area and begins hot-charging from the get go or has a battery that enables two jumps?
Becuase rules indicate that hot-charging is dangerous and costly. (Aerotech 2, p58-59) You can do serious, sometimes irreparable damage the KF drive by hot-charging so it should be done as a last resort, not common practice. If a jumpship did this is in every system it would break down very quickly, needing repair more often or potentially destroyed. Even if you are successfully hot-charging every jump, you're burning drive fuel to do it instead of the free solar power so the jumpship operator's profit margin sinks. It's just not cost-effective to do this on a routine basis.
And it still presents the problem of pirates taking a gamble on which jump point to use and laying in wait until an expected jumpship appears. A jumpship requires a minimum of 16 hours to do an extremely risky hot-charge. In that time, a dropship starting from 0g, burning to 1g, flip over, and reducing to 0g for intercept can travel over 16 million kilometers (over 422 times Earth-Moon distance or .108 of an AU) via physics algorithm d=½at² (0.5 * 9.8m/s² * 57600s * 57600s.) Ten thousand kilometers is nothing. A single dropship anywhere within a tenth of an AU of either jump point makes this a 50% chance of intercept; a dropship at both zenith and nadir makes it virtually assured. The argument that pirate dropships have no chance at all of catching a charging jumpship just isn't reasonable.
Now, an LF battery to jump immediately immediately, sure they couldn't catch one of those. But jumpships with LF batteries are very rare to begin with, even more so after the First Succession War. Sarna's article states "Only very few regular JumpShips, none of them a civilian-owned ship, are known to carry the expensive system" - there's no reference for this particular bit of information, but if its true, then you can't rely on any of those 295 civilian owned jumpships to have one. The few jumpships that have one would almost certainly all be concentrated in the House armies and used as high value messengers between command and front-line, not merchant transport in the Periphery. Could be some if the number of civilian craft is significantly more than 295, but this hurts your argument because it gives pirates more opportunity to attack those that don't.
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If it takes roughly 190 hours at minimum between jumps, a distance of 10000 km is only averaging 53 kilometers per hour.- pardon?
Using same d=½at². 10000km can be crossed in just 1428 seconds (sqrt(1000000m * 2 / 9.8m/ss)), or just shy of 24 minutes, assuming starting and ending at 0g with 1g burn. Since flip-over takes a few minutes at least, lets say its somewhere between half hour and full hour. This is still way less than 190 hours. (Or the 16 for hot-charge if you prefer.)
And we can get the velocity at flip-over via v=at to be 6997m/s (9.8m/ss * 714s), which is 25,189 kph. 53 kph is nothing to a dropship.
Now, these algorithms are a little simplified because they don't take drag into consideration (which is almost negligible in space), the effect of the sun or planet's gravity at an angle to the flight path, or how long it takes to perform maneuvers like flip over or docking, but they give a ballpark to suggest the dropship can traverse such vast distances in the time it takes for a jumpship to recharge that escape is nearly impossible.
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problem is you have to find it with the liited radar available
Don't need radar to find general position. The emergence signature produces an EM pulse powerful enough to be detected billions of kilometers away, and infrared signature within 50,000. So pirate dropship can head to that location.
And to find the exact position, Strategic Operations, p119, under Radar heading answers this: "Any Large Craft with a functioning sensor system (one not destroyed through critical damage) may attempt a Detection Check against objects within 100,000 km... When making a Detection Check, apply a modifier equal to the range/10,000 (for Large Craft)" Since 10,000 km is well within 100,000, and this only gives a +1 modifier to a detection check roll, the jumpship is almost certainly going to be found.
So why do you say things like "limited radar" when the rules have spelled out the radar systems are more than sufficient?
And before you say something silly like how the jumpship could burn away from the emergence point as soon as they arrive in system, their max thrust is only .1g. To travel 100,000 km away requires about 2 hours, 49 minutes of burn time. In the same amount of time, the dropship burning at 1g can travel five times that distance (ten times the acceleration, but needing to flip over half way.) Adding the radar range, that means the pirates could conceivably intercept the jumpship from a distance up to 600,000 km, and almost certainly within 500,000. So this method of evasion could work pretty well for planet-bound pirates, but not those laying in wait near the jump point.
It also assumes the jumpship crew believes themselves to be under credible attack upon arrival. While the dropship knows roughly where the jumpship is from the emergence signature, same is not true of the jumpship knowing a dropship is inbound. 100,000 km distance from an inbound ship decelerating at 1g gives them only about 53 minutes notice, less if the pirates are doing a more sudden deceleration. This is less than a third of the time needed to burn out of the pirate's radar range.
This also burns about 1/4 day of transit fuel (almost 3 hours acceleration and 3 hours deceleration). For an Invader that's about 4.9 tons of fuel, and they only carry 50 tons. Using a tenth of your expensive fuel on the 'maybe' of being attacked is not very cost effective.
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And what happens if this Jumpship is carrying a military unit and they decide to send out the fighters?
This is a risk the pirates take. Not going to be much military traffic in the Periphery as within House or major Periphery realm space, but its a possibility. Even without military protection, the jumpship or its dropships could (and would) launch fighters. The pirates have to have some faith that their dropship (and its fighters, if it has any) could disable or destroy any defending fighters. I never said the hijack was a sure thing - only that rendezvous is high probability.
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He believes that the Clans will not just start wiping out populations as assassins start taking a toll on their troops. And that everyone has some sort of heavy weapons system tucked under their pillows. Where assassins being snuck onto a world a few times would have some advantages, once it happened a few times, the clans would ...
... simply stop putting their pilots in situations that allow them to be assassinated. Like I said, they can berth inside the dropship in orbit, and no sniper rifle is reaching that far.
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... stop all travel between worlds, and make sure ALL personnel that had to, was watched closely. Any sort of sign of a weapon would result in their deaths as well as anyone else that was part of the ships compliment.
Ghostrider, you have a point here, but this method still takes manpower to perform searches and monitoring. I say just put the pilots out of range and the assassinations become impossible. Its a simpler solution and asks nothing of the Clans that they don't already have. I guess it could lock up dropships that would otherwise leave the system, but then we're back to the same "if IS can build thousands of ships, why can't the Clans build hundreds?" (Assuming they didn't just reactivate Star League era dropships from their naval caches and solve their protection problem far faster than the IS solves its ramp up problem.)
I think we're both in agreement that assassinations could be used on small scale - maybe to take out a Star Colonel which ends up making the difference in a key battle. But it couldn't be used all the time without the Clans countering it. To stop the Clan advance once Truce of Tukayyid expires, you'd need thousands and thousands of assassinations to weaken the Clan war machine enough to draw parity with the IS defenders. A handful? Yes. Thousands and thousands? No.
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ghostrider
09/14/20 09:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is other factors that go into hotloading a jumpdrive. Namely, why you are in the system to begin with. If you are there to drop off and pick up ships, then you are either stuck waiting for the pick up, or jump out leaving it stranded. That will get you blacklisted if you leave a few ships. No data showing you needed to jump would really get you screwed.
Oh yeah. How do you know the pirates haven't made it into a new system in order to hijack a ship. The smart ones would well hire a legit jump into a new system, just to prevent others from saying we are in the Luthien system, so we need to watch for pirates. But the Capellan system is fine.
Well the idea of having an battery does not mean you are safe either. It is very possible you used the charge to jump from another dangerous system. So the chance of having a charge needs to be figured in as well.
Rewriting everything is fine, but not saying the new storyline is the ultimate, and canon is wrong because the new story says so. Present a read alternative, not something that you continually use to bash the developers. Again. The numbers the developers used were not the same ones you did. They built their story and game a certain way. It can not be wrong in premise. There are flaws, and inconsistencies in it, no doubt.
The one issue with having their pilots in orbit is the fact they do need some show of force on the ground in order to remind people who is in charge. Given the fact that someone is sniping people would have elementals brought in to find this person, and that may well be an entire cluster of them.
The example of taking out a star colonel in a battle works, but there is a good chance you will make matters worse. Someone will take over, and they may well be worse then the colonel you took out when it comes to dealing with the locals. One shot may well be the only one you get without the clans knowing where you are. And as sniper shots are not guaranteed in the game, you may well just miss and have the civilians in the area pay for it, wiether successful or not Something that is missing form the wholesale sniping clansmen seems to be missing. This happened in one of the stories, that had the clans looking for a bomber.
Also, this relies on clan pilots actually needing a lot of time outside of their units in an unsecured location. Clan tech, like sensors, are much better then the IS has. They are more likely to spot your attempts before or sooner then you expect them. Elemental and even solhema units can change that figure as well. Not saying it would be done for a few times, but it would be done sooner or later.
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Wick
09/15/20 09:52 PM
173.247.25.195
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Why couldn't dropship land, mechs and elementals disembark, wave the flag for a few hours, then get back on board and head back to orbit? It makes the same show of force as a typical garrison formation that bunks on the surface, but without ever exposing the pilots to snipers.
Or just strafe targets with some aerospace fighters without ever landing the dropship?
I know SAMs could present a problem for fighters, but so could vibrobombs for a mech or elemental detachment. They're never going to be completely safe from danger, but the point is that they can pretty much eliminate sniper activity if it was a concern.
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ghostrider
09/15/20 10:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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They could stay in orbit and land only once in a while. This does have a tendency of making those doing so look scared and weak. It also does little to slow down any sort of raids, as there is no forces guarding anything, which is a point I tried to make to someone thinking every single soldier on a world could sit inside a mega fortress.
I do know this doesn't stop, and sometimes even forces at a site don't really slow things down, but it does keep the weekend warriors from trying something stupid, like taking out a dam or some such thing. Simply preventing the drag racing from the top of it, might prevent issues.
Another issue that comes about is the timing. If you get a routine going, this is a little more dangerous then having them down all the time.
Done right, you would never really run into this issue, but done right, and keeping the routine times isn't always easy to do.
Since they nerfed strafes from the original games, which they went to far in my opinion, it begs to ask, is it worth a fighter or two for a strafe to happen. A single hit and a bad roll could very well cause the fighter to become an oversized missile, destroying something it was meant to protect. Low altitude control failures tend to cause crashes. Not to mention what happens to a dropship that loses control.
Yes, this is a bit extreme, but has happened in games I have been in. This is why the super MG carrying mech is so dangerous. The mgs don't do a whole lot of damage, but just one thru armor crit can destroy a mech. 4 to 6 head hits can take out a mech as well, even if the damage doesn't go thru, as this is supposed to knock out the pilot to possibly kill them. The LBX canons became a long range issue.
Though to be honest, I don't know if a vibrobombs rule will allow an elemental suit to set one off. Command control ones are done by someone watching, so isn't an issue.
The big thing is, sniping might work great for a couple of times, but that depends on if the commander of the occupying forces isn't going to start wiping out innocent people just to show anyone who does it, will get their own killed.
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westjensontexas
10/12/20 10:57 AM
49.14.120.151
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It would make sense that destroying things and not removing the debris that would materialize in the ship would be in order, though this counters the whole issue of Kerensky leaving crap in the jump points behind them to discourage pursuit or even following the SLDF at a later time, as Comstar was doing.
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ghostrider
10/12/20 11:44 AM
66.74.60.165
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That is a problem with retconning things into the game without looking to see what was printed. It is possible that the developers just decided to change the concept. They did that with a few things, with some going to the extreme in the other direction.
This also changes the idea of how a jump works as well.
My thought was it just moved the ship from one location to another, all at once. This seems to send it in small pieces, and creates a shock wave. The energy put out by the jump has been there, but it was implied it was only during the jump from, not to, a system. With this, I always thought it was like phasing in, not just a fast movement. So anything in your way became part of what ever was at that point at that time. The idea is that you could jump and have a piece of metal become surrounded by your body. I can see, this is not the case.
And it is very stupid to have left garbage at a jump point to discourage pursuit. Part of a discussion about continuity in the game's history.
But this is a problem in itself. The jump points are so large, just how many garbage could have been dumped to cover it? The fleet did not really have the resources, unless they grabbed things from the systems and set it there. Which causes another issue, as you would have to put the garbage in perfect stationary position, as this is set over 100 years in the future. Even a simple foot movement an hour would send the debris out of position in less then 50 years.
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Requiem
02/02/21 05:11 PM
1.158.229.22
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Issue for Consideration: Warship Fuel
In order to travel the exodus road as well operating within the Inner Sphere the need for Warship Fuel must be considered.
(Note these same questions should be asked when considering the first exodus!!!!)
What is the exact nature of the fuel they require?
Is it the same as BattleMech? Is it the same as a Jumpship? Is the Inner Sphere Jumpship fuel even compatible given their reduced technology circa 3050?
Considering the size of their fuel requirements where are the tankers required within the invasion?
Also if specialist fuel is required then there must be a ship that manufactures fuel – correct?
So why was this ship(s) not hunted down and destroyed – thus reducing the range / military capability of their warship / jump fleets? (ie. providing the Inner Sphere with time to respond to the Clan Invasion)
Was this even considered within the game?
Can we say this is another Opps moment by the writers?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/02/21 06:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Under the Mammoth in the jumpships and dropships book from old, they do say a few of them were set up for being fuel tankers.
I don't know if they changed the implication, but it sounds like the fuel the warships used, is the same fuel all other star craft use.
I do think that a majority of the game seems to ignore the fact that fuel for starships could very well be the weak point of any invasion. Remove the fuel carriers and make sure there is none that they can get locally, and eventually, they can not bring in more troops. Granted, it does seem to be more important to take out combat ships.
Also, the lack of fuel tends to hurt the defenders as well, which may well be another tactic that invaders should be looking at, but don't.
Imaging how much easier it would be to take a planet if you remove the fuel for all air and space craft in one swoop.
One thing to remember for this topic. The original game did not include warships as a combatant in the 'current' age, which was 3025 era.
But it is a bit funny that ship fuel is abundant.
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Wick
02/02/21 07:42 PM
173.247.25.195
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I'm not sure about warship engines, but dropship engines, which are likely similar but smaller, are explicitly defined as fusion engines, which implies the fuel is some from of liquid hydrogen. Therefore the raw material is vastly abundant in the universe and only needs refining into a more transportable form, namely, liquid.
Offhand I'd expect the fuel might be much more plentiful than the refineries. Every spaceport is going to need large reserves of it and would be wise to keep it in multiple locations around the port rather than one single depot to avoid catastrophe. On the other hand, a given system might have just a few solar orbiting refineries (to collect raw hydrogen expelled in solar wind) or electrolysis distilleries (to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen), depending on its tech level and amount of surface water. Some lightly populated, water-scarce systems may have no refinery capacity at all and need to import all its fuel. Tankers would be needed to supply these worlds, as well as warships which couldn't land themselves to refuel at a spaceport.
Warships and dropships presumably carry enough fuel to satisfy the military objective without refueling mid-mission. This is known from the description of basic operations: lift off from one planet, meet jumpship for transport, burn-in to target system, land or orbit for potentially months at a time, then lift off and burn back to jump point for transit back to friendly system, then burn home. That's four system burns plus orbiting or sitting around planetside without refueling.
The amount of mass for fuel and amount used per day at 1g burn is also known from TROs, such that the number of days of expected operation is known. For a Leopard is 74+ days and an Overlord 166+. That's plenty of operational cycles before needing refueling. (HBS's Battletech goes a bit overboard by assuming the Argo never needs refueling, or at least it doesn't happen with the commander's knowledge.)
For longer campaigns deep into enemy territory fuel would obviously be a concern and either needs to be addressed as a target objective, extra dropships are needed such that exhausted ships can be rotated back to friendly space for refueling, or tankers must accompany the fleet. Deep drives like the Clan Invasion, the Combine's run to New Avalon, or Clan Wolf expansion along the Lyran-FWL border would require significant logistical planning. The fact that these even happen indicates fuel is rather plentiful, and the primary concern is getting it from sources to the ships' tanks.
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Requiem
02/02/21 10:25 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
Every spaceport is going to need large reserves
Problem is there are no reserves – no spaceports – no tankers even during the exodus or during the invasion …… what’s more there are no ships designed to act as a refinery / tanker ….
In addition it takes SIX MONTHS from Clan space to the Inner Sphere ……
Thus for this ‘very much’ longer campaign deep into enemy territory the issue of fuel becomes an extreme concern
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The fact that these even happen indicates fuel is rather plentiful
Or it could be argued that the writers decided never to consider this issue within the game and as such was just ignored by everyone ….
Thus we have another issue within the Clan invasion that cannot be explained … thus can we now say all ships have an unlimited range and the idea of fuel should be ignored – and with it the idea of tankers – refineries etc
As whom-ever holds all the major refineries controls the shipping of a House / Clan as they can dictate price etc ….
It is also of note that fuel and the issue of fuel for jump-ships or drop-ships are not even discussed ….. should also be taken into consideration!
As when you bring fuel into the war – all tankers / refineries become an instant primary target for aerospace fighter attacks …..
Also where is it written when everyone agreed that Jump-ships became inviolate from attack within the Inner Sphere that refineries also became inviolate at the same time?
This brings up many unanswered questions …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/03/21 02:49 AM
66.74.60.165
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The Mammoth Dropship carries 40,000 tons of cargo. I would assume that is wet or dry. That sounds like a lot when you figure a small fleet of dropships using it.
With this, it definitely seems like the exodus fleet was lacking fuel ships in their listing. Part of why a lot of numbers don't add up.
This is part of the issue I brought up a while back. Very few people actually figure out the real numbers and types of ships for an invasion, as they tend to (understandably) forget things like bringing in support personnel and vehicles.
Yes, a major target for an invasion would be space ports, but that isn't always something that can be done. Or if you want to be realistic, someone sabotages the tanks and makes sure there is no fuel left for the enemy to use. If you don't have your own dropships or fighters on the defense, and just rely on the HPG to have someone send some, then this is not a tactic to be ignored.
But refineries and such can't be that common. Too many stories suggest that like ammo, isn't all that plentiful. Pirates and normal raids would be so profitable if it was, that there would be no shortage of those items for the pirates and raiders. Yet a good chunk seem to be running on less then half loads for things. Might be to make a scenario that smaller defenders can fight off a large pirate group, as they DO have a shortage.
Also, it questions why the prices are as high as they are. An over abundance would drive prices down. Not something businesses would want.
Now that is not saying there aren't reserves as most jump stations have refueling available. It also says in the books starports have fuel to buy.
I will grant it that this is being a bit picky. The game is supposed to be simple in a few things, to avoid accountants having issues following it all.
This all started as the group I am playing with are mercs, and not really rich at this point. Everything is limited, and the idea of where to get it without stealing it came up. Not all contracts have refueling or even transportation paid for by the employer. We happened to piss off a lord that controlled the region we were in and he decided that no one was to sell to us.
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Wick
02/03/21 05:55 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
Quote:
Every spaceport is going to need large reserves
Problem is there are no reserves – no spaceports – no tankers even during the exodus or during the invasion …… what’s more there are no ships designed to act as a refinery / tanker ….
In addition it takes SIX MONTHS from Clan space to the Inner Sphere ……
But the Exodus fleet only made planetfall once, maybe twice during that trip (and not with every dropship either.) Only the in-system transit is burning significant amounts of fuel. Jumps alone don't use as much which is how they could execute the Exodus without needing to refuel on the way. By the time they reached the Pentagon Worlds many ships may have been running low, but its not like they only had enough to last a single month and the remaining months are simply unaccounted for.
Consider a Union (probably the most common dropship in the Exodus fleet.) It has 116.8 days of fuel. Its going to cost 22 to exist the New Samarkand system, and as many as 16.1 days to reach the furthest Pentagon World (Eden). That's 78.7 days (or 67.3%) worth of fuel remaining that is going almost entirely unused during the trip while attached to the jumpship's docking collar. With those amount of reserves they could resupply warships or jumpships if they were running low.
I really just don't see any problem with the fuel for the Exodus fleet. To be honest, I find it more unbelievable that they could feed 7 million people or retain enough oxygen for that number of months.
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Or it could be argued that the writers decided never to consider this issue within the game and as such was just ignored by everyone ….
Thus we have another issue within the Clan invasion that cannot be explained ...
But they did. And it can. They gave us worlds like Nouveaux Paris, Harris, and Bazaar - purpose-built resupply stations along the invasion route. I mean, some of the sites are even called Transfer Station, of which fuel is one of the things that would be transferred. I'm frankly astonished that you say this can't be explained.
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Requiem
02/03/21 08:32 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
Its going to cost 22 to exist the New Samarkand system, and as many as 16.1 days to reach the furthest Pentagon World (Eden).
Problem is as per …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_EXODUS
5 November 2784 – the exodus fleet began to leave the New Samarkand System;
August 24 2786 - reaching the Pentagon Cluster Kerensky announced the fleet had come to and end of their journey
Result 658 days (including end date in calculation)
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To be honest, I find it more unbelievable that they could feed 7 million people or retain enough oxygen for that number of months.
Additional problem – loss of muscle mass / bone density due to being in zero gravity – then there is the issue of children born during the exodus as well as all the massive amount of equipment / resources required to commence a viable colony.
The biggest issue is why you would take with you all your military Battlemechs etc as they are virtually useless when starting a colony except for protection (both from without and within) thus for the inevitable coup that was destined to occur? Or if they were hunted down by IS forces?
Sorry to say but the entire idea of the Exodus just does not hold water!
Nouveaux Paris, Harris and Bazaar - problem is there is no definitive date as to when these three were created except for 3059 – thus they were created POST / During operation Revival war – additional evidence that they did not exist during the initial years of the war – when the ComStar / Clan Traitor, Trent, was collecting the exodus road information was there any reference to these? I cannot remember any.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/21 02:14 AM
66.74.60.165
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Well the fleet did have ships that headed off to other systems along the route, as they were setting up decoy places to try and fool anyone following them.
As they were worried of pursuit, that would mean combat patrols, and I would think that would include warship and dropships on patrol as well as large fighter patrols.
The food/water/air issues would have been just as bad, even if they used ice asteroids and make hydrogen/oxygen with them. But then this also depends on how good their air filters are. They may have been far better then anything we have today, and we know the future in the game does NOT necessarily mean better (Weapons range cough cough).
Actually, using mechs in a non combat role can be very helpful. They are self contained atmospheric units that can survive a wide range of issues, and can be used to clear areas out for others. It they have hand actuators, they are more useful as well. Hand held items can be used as well, and the movement/aim issues aren't that bad if they are just using chain saws for cutting lumber, or digging trenches and such.
They work even in void situations as well, so it is possible, though difficult for them to be used to work on the outside of the ships for things like emergency repairs.
The Vehicles they took would be more of a waste of time and space then the mechs. The storage of huge stockpiles of weapons would be another waste, unless they honestly thought they were going to be fighting others. The techs and scientists they brought with them, should be able to build those very weapons in workshops on ships in the fleet.
I recall one of the books dealing with the invasion not only saying they were building stations for supply depots while the rest of the fleet headed to the IS, but multiple routes were done as well, so each clan had their own depots.
Now the big question on Task Force Serpent comes with the map to find the clans homeworlds. As the Smoke Jaguars would NOT have had their ships heading out the OA route of the old Exodus, there is NO reason for the task force to have headed out that way, as that route would have not been available. The clans were no where near that area during the invasion and unless the Dragoons had the map, this route could not have been done.
Edited by ghostrider (02/04/21 02:32 AM)
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Requiem
02/04/21 04:27 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
they were building stations for supply depots while the rest of the fleet headed to the IS, but multiple routes were done as well, so each clan had their own depots.
Problem –
Not only is it an inefficient use of limited resources for each clan to create their own transport fleet,
It also poses a massive problem for ….
Establishing an efficient refuelling system – that is unless EVERY invading clan decided to create multiple refineries as well as possessing a fleet of tankers and crews that are specially trained for the purpose. When considering the size of clan space as well as their predilection for remaining within Clan space for the past couple of centuries it is difficult to believe they (each Clan) have the massive number of ships / personnel available – then there is the issue of canon information provided to support the hypothesis – is there any available?
Also establishing the HPG relay that was shown to exist during the second vote for il-khan – more efficient if there is only one route with one chain of multiple space stations / refineries / tankers / HPGs etc …..
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…. unless the Dragoons had the map, this route could not have been done.
Simple orienteering / algebra / cartography – all that is needed is an end point then it is just a question of utilizing existing ComStar Explorer Corp Maps as well as the theory behind space exploratory theory that is used to discover new systems or even jumping through empty space in order to reach an end target world – when considering many of the vast distances between some planets within the IS, this is a achievable by many Jump-ship captains (especially military ones as in reality this should be SOP in order to reach a raid / target of opportunity – otherwise every-time your ship exits is jump your energy wave will give you away, and then it is a simple HPG call to every system close by that an unknown fleet is on its way …. As well as providing time for enemy forces to prepare for the raiding force …..
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…. using mechs in a non combat role can be very helpful.
Limited space available – when considering the size of the fleet as well as the number of people how many specialist vehicles, buildings, factories are required to ensure a minimum level of technology is available for the colonists thus in all probability military must be sacrificed for civilian ….. then there is the issue of how all this equipment was obtained without generating multiple red flags …. Considering the number of spy agencies this is incredibly unlikely …..
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…. were setting up decoy places to try and fool anyone following them.
Kerensky Paranoia? – I have come to the conclusion that Kerensky must have been psychologically deranged by the time of the Exodus – and this was the true reason why the House Lords decided to “Retire him” …. They noticed he was unstable …..
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…. food/water/air issues
Yes I agree …. Too many plot holes that cannot be rectified unless there is a massive rewrite ….
Also I would like to say that with the introduction of IS omni-mechs (eg. Kurita) every House involved in the war should have established multiple versions – in order to rectify this I have taken WOB Jihad era omni-mechs and used these as a blueprint for establishing first generation onmi’s for all three Houses.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/21 08:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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As said before, had they all shared the same routes, they would have been fighting at the start of the chain for supplies.
So to avoid such a problem they had their own routes, and were protecting them. I want to say the novel dealing with the Highlanders posing as Smoke Jaguars raiding the Nova Cats said as much. Granted, novels are not as solid for being full blown canon as say a TRO is, but it is more then naught.
SO the fact that the whole route was not straight but curved is overlooked in the statement of calculating from start to end point. If that was done, then going from where the clans invasion of the IS started would be the start point, not an area that none of the clans had taken to invade. All ships would be using that route, not the exodus route near the OA.
How material for the exodus was gathered should have been caught by all the spies in the IS at that time?
Really? The IS had no idea of what they had left behind, much less what they took with them. All the lost SL bases would have been known and raided in the first few months of the 1st war. The material alone, would have been able to allow house forces to field more then a few regiments. Galtor makes a major statement to this. It was found in 3025 or so. It was a major warehouse, yet not known to anyone. Well a little more specific. The houses found a small one, not the huge one. Even Comstar wasn't aware of it, otherwise they would have seized it before the houses found it. And Comstar was the ones that had the records of the SL and still didn't find a chunk of the bases that were left behind. And they were actively looking for such bases to kept the tech out of the hands of the houses.
I see the tactician has come out again. A force fleeing an enemy would never try to decoy someone following them with such tactics. The whole scatter order does nothing like this at all. The fact that some things were retconned and made a few t hings printed a bit obsolete, like dumping garbage in the jump points doesn't change the fact that making decoy areas obsolete. Having some loop back on the followers would be more then enough to at least make them split some forces to make sure their rears are not about to be swamped.
Rectified? The developers should have never tried to fill in the gaps and flesh out the story, They did not seem to account for anything other then the military units on a simple raid. Now it was said that they did have some resources rondevous with the fleet in space, so some of the questions can be lightened with this.
But now put this into the Wolverine's flight from clanspace. They would not have had the resources either. They had far less ships. They lost a lot of big ones before they got clear.
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Requiem
02/04/21 11:12 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
had they all shared the same routes, they would have been fighting at the start of the chain for supplies.
As said before, Problems with this assessment in ensuring an efficient logistics chain ….
1. Safcon … safe passage provisions;
2. The idea that Orbital Cargo Transfer Stations were included within the Deep Periphery – otherwise they would be superfluous;
3. The Number of ships / personnel required if each individual clan maintained their own logistics support network from Clan space to the IS and then throughout the Invasion Corridor – thus making it extremely difficult to efficiently maintain logistics within the battlefield – thus making the entire Clan Invasion a complete joke from the point of view of logistics / replacement personnel within the game!;
Thus in order to ensure an efficient logistics – one route – one set of Jump-ships / drop-ships all ending at an orbital cargo transfer system where you have a hub and spoke approach to each individual invasion corridor …
Thus eliminating all issues when it comes to multiple logistics chains …..
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The IS had no idea of what they had left behind, much less what they took with them.
This is why you have spies as well as having a black box HPG ….
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dumping garbage in the jump points
And why is there not a complete recycling system? …. Thus making the need for obsolete sites with garbage irrelevant …
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Wolverine's flight from clanspace. They would not have had the resources either. They had far less ships.
Time to read the novel regarding this issue ….
They could have just stolen any number they wanted as all the ships were in dry dock – so all you needed to do was get on board and activate the computers and they were yours for the taking …..
Thus they only lost those they stole … and yet many still got away …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/05/21 02:49 AM
66.74.60.165
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Given the fact that only clan Wolf seemed to desire some larger form of supply routes, the waste of each one having their own is pretty much mute. Safecon would not be allowed, as it was a combat challenge to see which clan could take terra first. This does not mean that most might rely on the Diamond Sharks to provide what they needed, but the goal itself would negate shared supply lines.
Why bother ordering and paying for your own supplies, when you can just raid your neighbors, and remove their forces as well as taking their supplies? There was NO such agreement for Safecon in the invasion.
Given the Diamond Sharks were part of the forces that went to the IS, it is very likely THIER ships were used to move supplies when the other clans did not have the ships.
Might need to pay attention to the context of the statements before making more comments. The context dealt with the Exodus road and why it could NOT be the start for Operation Serpent. Only the Dragoons might have had the actual Exodus road route, as the invading clans would NOT come close to moving anything near the OA in the invasion of 3049-3051. The statement of spies came up with this when it was said that the houses did not have an idea of what was left behind, much less the route start of the exodus. And with this, the black boxes were not in the hands of the FC during the SLDF Exodus.
Recycling should very well have been on their minds. But garbage could have been more then just metal scraps. Moving asteroids and such could have worked well for this. But retcon removed this from the history of the game.
Logic is failing with the idea that the Wolverines could have stolen any ships they wanted to. First off, drydocked ships tend to be there for a reason, such as comeplete refit of the engines, and for war ships, jump cores. This also would mean that when declared dezgra or even annihilated, the other clans did not bother to announce this to say shipyards and such. If I recall right, they took what they could and fled with as many as they could. Given the clans divided all ships that went on the exodus between 20 clans, and the call that the exodus fleet could not have sustained those leaving, even the civil war devastation would not allow the Wolverines to flee with enough ships to sustain their populations for long. They were hounded for a while, so the GCL would have removed even more. No stopping for major repairs as ALL clan assets would be alerted to the Wolverines flight.
As the entire fleet can not be set in drydock, as there is no way they had enough berths to do so, this also puts a major damper on that idea.
On a side note, drydock ships would probably have most of the fuel and munitions removed so there isn't an explosion to destroy the drydocks if something goes wrong.
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Requiem
02/05/21 05:21 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
clan Wolf seemed to desire some larger form of supply routes
Only within the IS engagement corridor.
Within the Deep Periphery and along the exodus road is another thing altogether.
Given the Canon figures as to Jump-ships each Clan assigned to their fleet it is obvious that their logistics MUST have been completely ludicrous!
Though the main problem is that the PTB ignored this concept completely, just as they did for fuel / Sibko replacements; Reverse engineering Omni tech; Creating an anti toad rifle; Response to Turtle Bay; Establishment of the SLDF; or just attacking One Clan … etc etc (as the list goes on and on and on as to the number of issues that can be assigned to this extremely poorly written invasion!)
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Why bother ordering and paying for your own supplies, when you can just raid your neighbors, and remove their forces as well as taking their supplies?
Where is the loss depletion reports – where is the swapping over to primary energy weapons due to reduced consumables – where is the amalgamation of forces due to a lack of sibko replacement numbers – where is the IS exploiting this problem within the Clans ??????
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There was NO such agreement for Safecon in the invasion.
And if not then where is the repercussions for not having such a system within the invasion ….. again very poorly written story + very poorly though out as to cause and effect upon the front lines ….. did anyone ever bother to crack open a history book? Patton WW2 due to Operation Market Garden supplies and units were deviated, Patton was unable to push forward …. Similar issue with Rommel in the desert and his issues with supplies … how about the Japanese Army in the latter half of their war within the pacific?
Sorry but this just does not make any sense whatsoever … cause and effect …. No safcon ….. diversion of units / material / ships on the front line …. Increased damage due to fighting another Clan …. increased loss depletion report for men and vehicles …. How does this affect the next wave as to the number of worlds that can be attacked because they are off chasing down supplies? ….. how does this affect clan sibko replacement personnel as what happens if you attack and capture a rival convoy to find that it included a large number of replacement sibko personnel for this rival clan? …. and why didn’t any of this reach the novels????????
Again very poorly written!!!!!
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Safcon
“is an agreement where the defending party guarantees to not fire on the attacker while en route to the site agreed”
“a means of ensuring that only elements bid for the Trial are involved and to protect valuable DropShips and JumpShips from harm”
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as the invading clans would NOT come close to moving anything near the OA in the invasion of 3049-3051.
Ha?
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the houses did not have an idea of what was left behind
Actually this is SOP …. When a rival house assumes control over a new world the looser will ensure their agents will remain behind in order to communicate information back as to the worlds new military garrison etc …….
Black Box tech would also have been SOP given the private war between FC and ComStar that has been raging for how many years?
Again a lack of cause and effect within the story!!!!!
As for the Exodus route – again all you really need is an end point with that it is just a question of utilizing exiting Explorer Corp Maps / utilizing old techniques used during colonization era to enable your forces to reach the end point.
So again not a real issue.
QUESTION: How can you detect an asteroid has been moved years after it has occurred?
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Logic is failing with the idea that the Wolverines could have stolen any ships
Again read the Novel as this explains everything.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/05/21 06:47 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still forgetting support ships are NOT part of the invasion bid. They could have had none to thousands of ships moving supplies. It is likely that they hired some to move supplies, possibly between certain points, as to keep them out of combat, and used a few spares they brought with them to move it into the IS. As clan wolf DID use ships to make supply depots deeper into the IS WHILE they were still fighting in one of the waves, they did have extras. Taking ships is possible, but that would also mean having the crews available in larger then normal numbers. Jumpships crews are normally not warrior caste.
This does not mean that I don't agree with the numbers being off, as TPTB tend to forget what support units actually need, as thousands of labor caste are needed to set up bases and such. Yet they don't seem to be added to any fleets. I will lean towards the easy way out and say support units don't get numbers.
Again with the raiding the clan supplies when you have no real intel on what or where they are or coming from. The book listing x numbers of warships is fine for you to say they should have done this or that, but looking from an in game perspective, they did NOT know if the clans had warships patrolling their supply routes. Nor did they really have the extra ships to even recon this. The clans gobbled up anything that was caught on it's own. And most IS jumpships did NOT have Lithium batteries on them. So you jump near hostile clan ships, you can not run with a jumpship.
So you answered your own complain with Safecon. That does not stop an enemy from attacking your units, it just says you will allow them to land without being fired on. So your initial use of it, is completely opposite of what you wanted it for.
Go back and reread the posts. The entire discussion about the EXODUS ROAD is about the fact that the houses in 3049 onward, did NOT have the map for the exodus road, unless the Dragoons gave it to them. Trent did NOT follow the route from the SLDF leaving the IS thru the area near the OA. The Dragoons were likely to have when they came in, but the IS did NOT get it from the invading clans. Might I suggest looking on the IS map where the Exodus road left the IS, and where the closest invading clan of the time got to it in the first invasion.
Again, you are confused about the time line. When the SLDF left the IS on the exodus road, the houses had NO CLUE on what the SLDF left behind or where. If they did, hidden SLDF bases would not be lost. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand. The black boxes were NOT in the hands of the houses at this point. They were found in the 3000s. Not 2700s when the SLDF left.
Not being able to detect an asteroid that was moved is the very thing about answering the leaving garbage in the jump points to discourage pursuit. It does not mean using a dropship as target practice and scattering it throughout a jump point. But as stated, they retconned that so it wasn't an issue.
So the Wolverines stole all the ships they could and stopped the other clans from pursuit as they didn't have any to follow them with? Oh. Wait. Every drydock just happened to have fully loaded ships just waiting for someone to steal them. And when the clan was called for destruction, they were not locked down, allowing anyone to just walk up and steal them, along with having a full crew with them. Yeah. And with this, the stole more then enough fully stocked jumpships and such to make it to the IS, so they could raid for more before leaving. Sounds more like BS then the Exodus.
Having set up before the statement would suggest they were planning in robbing the other clans, which may well have been the real reason behind them being called for destruction. Otherwise, there is no sensible way for the Wolverines to get the supplies and ships to get away properly.
And no. The novel doesn't explain everything. It just gives you one persons perception of what they wanted to happen. It was retconned into the story line like most things anymore.
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ghostrider
02/05/21 07:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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Let's address the biggest plothole of the Wovlerines.
If Nicholas and others planned to annihilate them, why was it that none of them made any plans to make sure the Wolverines could not escape?
No code changes to lock them out of any ships.
No override codes to shut them down.
No blocking routes for them to even get loaded up into their ships.
No extra forces to be around when the fighting started.
HPG messages move faster then dropships to a jumpship, so all systems would have the alert out for the renegades.
So before continuing the Wolverines scenario, answer those and other questions. You will find that the entire history is a black hole of logic.
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Wick
02/05/21 08:45 PM
173.247.25.195
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Sorry I've been a way for a few days so I haven't had to address the fuel question.
Quote:
5 November 2784 – the exodus fleet began to leave the New Samarkand System;
August 24 2786 - reaching the Pentagon Cluster Kerensky announced the fleet had come to and end of their journey
Result 658 days (including end date in calculation)
I'm going to use your numbers from https://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/185173/Main/185149 because I'm too lazy to go confirm it from a canon source but they sound right.
Assumption 1: Since we don't know the exact composition of the fleet, I'm going to assume they have 5000 Unions. Some dropships will be heavier, some lighter, but for the purposes of determining if they could carry enough fuel, let's stick with it as its both common and mid-weight.
Assumption 2: Standard jumpships are going to use very little fuel. They may use a little for station keeping, but let's assume that none of them are doing in-system maneuvers until the end of the trip.
Assumption 3: The jumpships will not transfer fuel to Warships or Dropships. They probably could but this assumption now removes jumpships from any fuel calculations.
Assumption 4: All ships are topped off with fuel before leaving New Samarkand, minus the fuel it requires for dropships to burn from surface to jump point. With Unions, this leaves them with at most 67.3% of fuel to expend per above.
Assumption 5: In truth many Warships and Dropships would be short of having the maximum reserve. I had above stated that the Unions would need 67.3% of the fuel after removing any New Samarkand or Eden trips. Let's knock it down to 60% to account that not every ship would be topped off and that no one wants to be running down to 2% of fuel remaining. The Warships will start with enough fuel for a few weeks a well, but let's focus on how much we have to refuel them.
Assumption 6: The Exodus fleet is known to have sent off scouting parties and deception parties. We don't know how many ships were used in this purpose, but let's assume 20 per day fully burning at 1g. The vast majority of warships burn fuel at 39.52 tons per day, regardless of their class. (In truth the deception parties probably used little fuel while the warships probably didn't burn 1g continuously but instead dispatched more efficient dropships for scouting planets.)
With these assumptions, each of the 5000 Unions in the fleet, with 60% of their 215 ton fuel tanks remaining to be used, gives a grand total of 645,000 tons of fuel available be used during the Exodus. 20 warships burning 39.52 tons per day expends 790.4 tons of fuel per day. At this rate, they have 816 days worth of refueling available, way longer than the Exodus actually took. (In truth, they could get just shy of 25 warships with all above assumptions.)
So linearly speaking I think they had enough fuel. In actuality though they would have used deception parties frequently during the early parts of the voyage, then stopped for a bit, and started sending search parties at increasing frequency though the last year to year and a half. So the fuel consumption is going to be parabolic rather than linear. There's just too many factors to know exactly how much fuel they were burning at any particular point of the journey so a linear model is about the best we can do. It shows that's the Exodus could be done with the fuel available though.
Everything else though - food, water, oxygen, living space, gravity-wellness (they did have grav decks but not enough to satisfy 6 million people) and needless mech storage are legitimate concerns though.
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Nouveaux Paris, Harris and Bazaar - problem is there is no definitive date as to when these three were created except for 3059 – thus they were created POST / During operation Revival war – additional evidence that they did not exist during the initial years of the war – when the ComStar / Clan Traitor, Trent, was collecting the exodus road information was there any reference to these? I cannot remember any.
The Clan depots in the near periphery only became known and mapped in 3059. Some of them existed prior to 3050, most likely in late 3049 or early 3050. Canon establishes that the bandit kingdoms were wiped out around August and September 3049 and then a few months pass before the Clans enter House space in March 3050. So what are they doing during this time? Presumably setting up resupply depots and building reserves of key items (such as fuel). One of the things they likely did on these worlds was build barracks and training grounds for warriors that would either replace front-line losses or form the bulk of the PGCs, since its inefficient to wait for such troops to arrive from the homeworlds.
It's likely ComStar had discovered many of these worlds, but did so in the 2900s, found them unpopulated or so sparsely as to not matter and by 3050 were sending Explorer Corps much further afar and did not realize the Clans were rapidly setting up shop on these planets. Apparently they came across ComStar jumpships with HPGs a few times though for the details to get back to Terra. I don't think ComStar really knew which planets were being used for resupply bases until Trent or the Nova Cat defection, otherwise they'd have given out the information in 3052 and the Inner Sphere powers would have launched raids to take out these bases. I find the Nova Cats more likely, as the Clan as a whole would have known where they go to trade materials with other Clans while Trent was one guy who had a path to Huntress, but perhaps not to a lot of other places. Th Exiled WOlves are another candidate, but I find them less likely to betray their Clan brethren.
As far as each Clan having their own depots, this was mostly true, since they had warrior barracks and such. A Clan like Diamond Shark was likely willing to trade fuel for resources. All of the invading Clans were shipping huge amounts of resources back to the homeworlds and while the Diamond Sharks had no worlds in House space, they no less profited greatly by being nearby.
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Requiem
02/06/21 01:26 AM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
Still forgetting support ships are NOT part of the invasion bid.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion …. each Clan submitting the number of forces it planned to commit, with the goal of using the least resources necessary to achieve the objective and thereby maximize efficiency ….
Sorry but no, I disagree, when considering the forces that they are planning to commit this MUST INCLUDE all support forces (military logistics) necessary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_logistics as well as a detailed loss depletion report which must be compared to the expected number of individuals that will be graduating sibko to become full warriors.
In not understanding the significance (role) of military logistics as well as a loss depletion report this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding modern combat as well as its affect upon the army’s momentum demonstrating a very poor writing / comprehension!
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… they did NOT know if the clans had warships patrolling their supply routes.
This is why your attacking unit contains a big wing with nuclear ordinance – despite what the rules are a 5KT warhead direct strike WILL kill off any warship classification due to release of thermal energy alone – so until someone actually creates adequate rules, as well as specialist weapons / electronic countermeasures etc for naval vessels the naval side of the game will always be lacking ….
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…. Safcon ….
Sorry but I once more disagree … safcon does extend to logistics transport …. Protection of Jumpships / dropships and there is also the issue as to if there are no warriors present then how do you fight for the right to own them - with what forces do you …… ? or are the clans now into outright theft when they believe they can get away with it?
Quote:
…. Exodus road ….
As discussed in the game the Exodus Road was detailing the route the Clans used to return to the Inner Sphere and in no way was the same as the original Kerensky Exodus of 2 years, otherwise their initial invasion point would have been completely different as well as the massive logistics required to re-enter the Inner Sphere as well as the problems associated with resupplying an invasion fleet with a 4 year turn-around from Clan space … if you used the original Exodus Road.
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…. Wolverines …..
Again please, please read the novel ……
Wick,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_EXODUS
A total of nearly six million personnel, a third of which were soldiers and the rest civilians, were carried in 1,349 JumpShips, 402 WarShips and over 5,000 DropShips
Considering the number of ships involved it would be reasonable to expect that upon translating from a Jump you will need to move your ship so that those coming behind you do not end up jumping right on top of your ship killing everyone on both ships ….
Then there is the issue of Warship / drop-ship movement during the exodus to find suitable planets to colonize or to acquire water etc for the 6 million people
So yes they most definitely would have had to used their engines
I would also like to point out the problem that if you do not use your engine for 2 years then expect it to work after this period of time just because of the argument that it worked the last time I used it (2 years ago) is a little bit strange ….
So again the issue of fuel must be addressed! As they in no way would have had enough!
The biggest problem with the game is that when you drill everything down to its components nearly everything does not hold water due to a lack of fact checking whilst attempting to work out if it can even be considered viable / or when it comes to the people understanding what is written about them can be considered to be truthful - too many within the game have a back story that cannot even be considered viable once you start researching the finer details !
So until then there will always be arguments as to the validity of many of the statements within the game ….
When space-stations suddenly appear in 3059 with no background whatsoever - there is no documented evidence as to how they were built, by who, and how they were built, (Kit form – on site or transferred from clan space in parts) as well as the time it took to build it then there will always be issues!
From my point of view the majority of the game needs a massive re-write – that’s why I am now onto re-writing history as well as the houses themselves.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/06/21 03:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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The clans do NOT bid in support units unless they are part of the fighting force that is attacking, then that changes them from support to combat units. They do not bid in the techs that repair the units between battles. They do not bid in the people that recover the units, nor do they bid in the ships in orbit carrying those supplies. Only the combat units are bid. Not sure why this fact is not sinking in. It is printed as such in multiple locations.
Now they should have them figured out to make sure the supplies do get to the fighting units, but again. They are NOT part of the bid.
Think about this. If they were, then all the Diamond Shark units that went with them, would have to be included in each clans bid, as they were SUPPORT ships, moving cargo.
Still suggesting the canon version had the large Aerowings in order to take out anything that moves?
Guess you should think about this one. If they did have those warship killing fighters, why bother with the periphery? Why not just destroy those forces they have invading their worlds and roll them back? Destroying what they know is far easier then hoping you find their supply lines. It also prevents other worlds from falling and gives you time to take out the ground forces on worlds they are at. And this does not mean they have all the intel in the universe as it is continuously suggested.
The overzealous clans would agree to leave other clans supplies alone as they are moved to the IS? What was that about Mongols and superiority? There is no way they would agree to this. Most didn't think they even needed that much. They would not go back and send more once they figured out how wrong that was. Even the Sharks had issues keeping up with supplying the Falcons PGCs. They would raid others, just to avoid having to suggest they were wrong about needing them, and having them sent. 6 month delay? Not a way in the universe that they would wait that long. They continued to press forward.
SO now you understand why the ORIGINAL exodus road could NOT be used by Task Forces Serpent to head to the clans home worlds? This is what I have been saying for a while. It is highly unlikely that even the route near the clan home worlds was used. They came in on an arc. Not straight like the invasion suggests.
Oh yeah. Reread what Safecon is, and really think about the definition. They grant the ATTACKER freedom to land forces. It does NOT protect the defender. So bidding for the supplies in the route would NOT be covered by Safecon. Those with the supplies would be defenders. The definition is completely opposite of it.
There is a small point with jumping many ships into a system. The concept of knowing where the other ships are at, you could calculate enough to avoid jumping on top of each other, though there is a question in there that asks just how many ships is too many at a time? The large area you can jump into gives some room for this, but moving ships may not allow them to clear each other.
If they have a constantly precise location for jumping, this would allow enemy forces to position themselves to strike as soon as you materialize.
The read between the line person couldn't read between the lines to figure out that the clans had the ability to move partial space stations? The Dragoons had one with them when they arrived. Which begs to ask why no one had ever questioned them about it.
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Requiem
02/06/21 04:52 AM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
The clans do NOT bid in support units
Operation Revival is NOT a normal battle – it is travelling six months distant in order to invade a corridor of approximately 150 worlds in order to reach terra all the while whilst competing against other Clans in a race to reach Terra first - it is undeniably obvious that any bid MUST include logistical support – as an adequate logistical support will have an effect upon the momentum of battle and must be taken into consideration when racing to win the prize that is il-Clan …. It is a total clan ability to win NOT just the warriors on the front line!
Military logistical support units ARE attached, it is not as if they can be removed at any time. Consider major invasion support fleets – Operation Overlord / Operation Neptune WW2 etc.
In my opinion, stipulating they are separate is completely illogical when it comes to undertaking a major invasion.
So, is there any written documentation to the effect that clearly stipulates this fact or is just how you interpret the information provided?
Book, Page No., and exact quote please.
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Why not just destroy those forces they have invading their worlds and roll them back?
Again pitiful writing is not an excuse …..once warships are brought into the game then there must be a means of neutralizing them – and as the TPTB do not allow retrofitting drop-ships into PT craft these leaves but one option – big wing attack grups armed with nukes – post Turtle Bay every House has the excuse they need to start an atomic war!
Really someone should have cracked open some history books or at least obtained the services of a military historian where they could have asked what if questions.
Quote:
The overzealous clans would agree to leave other clans supplies alone as they are moved to the IS?
In the interest of efficiency – yes one route to the IS delivered under Safcon to centralized space station – there each Clan collects their logistics. Once within the IS invasion corridor, however, they become fair game for acquisition trails.
As this is just your basic hub and spoke logistical support arrangement after all
Anything else is completely inefficient and will require a massive warship navy in order to protect it from other Clans who could quite easily curtail the momentum of their rival through the acquisition of their logistical fleets.
And where was it even mentioned within any book that rival Clans utilized this quite obvious tactic?
In all reality why didn’t the Jaguars and Falcons do this to the Wolves as in reality it is not beyond their ability? And would have easily slowed their progression within the IS to a crawl due to a lack of consumables as well as replacement warriors.
Quote:
….safcon….
“ …. is an agreement where the defending party guarantees to not fire on the attacker while en route to the site agreed for a Trial, a means of ensuring that only elements bid for the Trial are involved and to protect valuable DropShips and JumpShips from harm.”
…. It is an agreement where the invading Clans guarantee to not fire on the military logistical forces en route to the IS invasion corridor (ie the site of the trial) as a means of ensuring to protect the valuable Dropships and Jumpships from harm …. Once within the IS they thus can become part of the involved Trial ……
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If they have a constantly precise location for jumping, this would allow enemy forces to position themselves to strike as soon as you materialize.
Film – Wing Commander – for this to occur it requires an absolute confirmation, by the enemy, as to the materialization point …. Has any force within the IS or Clans been able to acquire this information prior to the jump?
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Which begs to ask why no one had ever questioned them about it.
The real question is why no one took it from them … then retreated into void with it ….. again very bad writing as all the questions must be addressed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/06/21 11:56 AM
66.74.60.165
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We have gone over this several times. The clans do not include units like the PGCs into bids unless they are there to fight in the front lines. Why would anything like a tech be bid in? They are always with the combat units, yet there has never been a batchall that has stated the 3 stars of Beta techs would be part of a bid. They do not create any sort of fear.
Just need to make sure you understand not bid into the force, but are still a part of it is understood. There is no way the clans would survive the invasion without them. It is the fact they are not listed in the invasion roster.
Warships should have remained dead in the game, but without them, the clans would lose a lot of their threat factor. The larger number of dropships would not have been as much of a threat, which would have allowed the IS to use their aerospace forces to stop and roll back the clans. Without the ability to wipe out a combat group of the IS quickly, like a warship could, the invasion would have had to resort to all invading and even then bogging down.
The concept of tech superior, yet number inferior invaders attacking is a tried and true concept. The IS DID start building warships and partially evening the score there. Drama effect to cause uncertainty as well as desperation is a way to make a story.
The balance of forces required the warships to make the clans threat more realistic. The sheer number of units the IS could throw at them would have made it unbelievable that the clan could do that much without the threat of losing their space fleet.
There was no such agreement to allow supplies to make it to the IS safely. I can see why you would want to suggest that, as it means the IS would have been more likely to disrupt their flow, since none of it would be guarded. Newsflash. They guarded the entire line. The clans trials would make sure they they were not destroyed as each clan would try to claim anothers supplies. That is the only 'agreement' they would make.
Ah. Now you are starting to understand issues with fleets jumping together into a system in tight packs. There should be a limit to just how many ships can jump at the same time into the same system. A thousand ships WILL start causing overlap in jump fields, or be scattered throughout the entire jump area. Calibration of a jumpship made in Galax would not has be precisely the same as a ship made at Defiance. Just that little bit off, should well cause a tight fleet major issues like the jump wash.
Sorry. I should have specified that it was why no one questioned the Dragoons on how they had a station that the IS has not built in over 300 years. As for why no one tried to take it, there are several reasons that could be. The main one is the length of time it takes to prepare it to be moved. I seriously doubt one jumpship could do so.
The station alone would say something isn't near being right. As the books imply that stations are built on site and don't move thru jumping, just inspecting it would allow for bringing in battlestations. Maybe even reinventing the Yardships.
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Wick
02/06/21 02:57 PM
173.247.25.195
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Sorry but no, I disagree, when considering the forces that they are planning to commit this MUST INCLUDE all support forces (military logistics) necessary
But a Clan CAN change their plan to suit the requirements. If another disagrees, then they can fight a Trial of Refusal over it.
You are arguing that the Clans had to know exactly what would happen. Nova Cat clairvoyance aside, this is impossible. Things change as the campaign progresses and the Clans had to adjust to them. In some cases those changes did not sit well with the Clans that weren't part of the invasion, and Trials were fought over them. The need to bring even more reserves forward to fill out more PGCs for garrisoning duty brought Trials of Refusal from Clans like the Ice Hellions, which eventually morphed into Harvest Trials when the invading Clans realized they could just take the soldiers they needed from other Clans rather than defend the decision to do so from their own resources.
Even ignoring Trials as away to provide reinforcements, Clan bidding process generally involves bidding both a main attack force, and bidding a reserve force. Operation Revival was basically bid in the Grand Council as four Clans as the main force and another three Clans as reserve, thus establishing the main force/reserve model as a standard form of the process. It is further understood that each invading Clan (and the three reserve Clans) bid a certain number of Clusters to the attack (presumably nearly all of their front-line galaxies), but its also possible that they bid their entire Clan as reserve, which could include typically non-combatant forces.
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In not understanding the significance (role) of military logistics as well as a loss depletion report this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding modern combat
They didn't have to understand "modern combat" - they only had to understand Clan combat as of the 31st century, and then adapt to Inner Sphere combat of the same era. Guerilla warfare and rebellious populations were not something they were accustomed to dealing with, and that required a change in their plans.
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safcon does extend to logistics transport
Not explicitly, but I agree that is is implicit. There is no glory or honor in destroying or capturing an enemy's resources without a fight. Thus supply convoys and such are generally not molested. How the Inner Sphere treats Jumpships is basically how the Clans treat anything else that isn't military. In both cases an aggressor occasionally breaks the rules to punish the other side. Unless there was sound reason, the Clans would certainly deem it dezgra.
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Considering the number of ships involved it would be reasonable to expect that upon translating from a Jump you will need to move your ship so that those coming behind you do not end up jumping right on top of your ship killing everyone on both ships ….
As previously discussed (maybe in another thread), the jump "point" is not one single spot in space that all inbound and outbound craft must occupy. It is a very large area of space. "Point" is a bad term for it: jump area would be more correct.
Multiple ships can jump into or out of a jump point/area simultaneously, assuming they are far enough for each other to not have their jump fields overlap. It is assumed that the computers onboard jumpships, combined with the vast area involved make collisions virtually impossible (maybe once a century it occurs but I know of no canon examples.)
The SLDF certainly had a gigantic fleet which would increase the chances of collision, but they were also friendly units so their computers could work in tandem to ensure no two ships occupied the same target space in the next system. Thus, the jumpships do not need to expend fuel to move out of the way of other craft. Canon also explains that jumpships can arrive in the proper orientation to perform recharging. So all that remains is station keeping, which is a low fuel consumption activity, possibly even powered by the collecting sail itself rather than fuel reserves. (And this disregards the earlier fact I pointed out that a ship could fully recharge in far less time that it would take to fall into the gravity well such that station keeping is merely a matter for docking purposes, and if the dropships aren't detaching during the Exodus then they could do without using the station keeping engines at all.)
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I would also like to point out the problem that if you do not use your engine for 2 years then expect it to work after this period of time just because of the argument that it worked the last time I used it (2 years ago) is a little bit strange ….
Humans have spacecraft today that approach this, and maybe exceed 2 years. New Horizons for example went 14 months between course corrections but I can't find longer examples because few space missions go 2+ years between the need.
Furthermore, canon provides numerous examples of SLDF or early Succession War craft (jumpships, warships, and dropships) that still work after rediscovery. If these ships can go centuries without use, a mere two years on the Exodus is nothing.
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Book, Page No., and exact quote please.
Since you asked for it, regarding supply bases, Warriors of Kerensky page 18, "... seizing control of Deep Periphery realms to serve as staging posts (for example, the Khwarazam Empire and Chainlaine Isles.)" Thus, canon states that some of the supply depots exist in 3049.
Regarding safcon for non-combatant spacecraft, WoK page 120 "Even in those cases when Clan ships are not approaching a world to engage in trial, the inbound vessels may broadcast a 'beam of neutrality' ... avoiding any hostile actions from the occupying troops." I seriously doubt the entire invasion road was heavily guarded against attack from other Clans with this mechanism in place. Even assuming a small number of Warriors on-site, it may boil down to a hand-to-hand combat battle over the resources if mechs aren't available. I mean, if the defender bids a star of lightly armed second-line warriors guarding the supply depot or a single tank, the attacker can't rightly march in with a Timber Wolf. Spheroid forces might bring a whole lance to wipe them out, but the Clan way is to make it a more even fight.
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I should have specified that it was why no one questioned the Dragoons on how they had a station that the IS has not built in over 300 years. As for why no one tried to take it, there are several reasons that could be. The main one is the length of time it takes to prepare it to be moved. I seriously doubt one jumpship could do so.
The station alone would say something isn't near being right. As the books imply that stations are built on site and don't move thru jumping, just inspecting it would allow for bringing in battlestations. Maybe even reinventing the Yardships.
People did ask, and the Dragoons simply shrugged it off as Star League tech, which in the early 31st century was an answer that difficult to disagree with.
No one tried to take it because the Dragoon's were a serious force to contend with, with ample aerospace defense and the Seventh Kommando available to deter any marines trying to occupy the station. And to attempt would make an enemy of a very powerful mercenary group: a reputation that would not suit you well when negotiating with other mercenaries who will fear similar treatment. The Combine was the first and only one to make a move on it, and the station was destroyed when it become evident the Seventh Kommando was on the verge of taking it back.
As far as moving it, it was modular and could be deconstructed into smaller parts, each attaching to a jumpship docking collar. I don't know if its ever been said how many parts, but the Dragoons have a massive transport capacity. Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook page 6 describes a seven ship fleet with two Monoliths and three Star Lords, and likely Invaders as the remaining two, giving them 44 docking collars, but the rest of the book also provides them with exactly 44 dropships of various classes, indicating they either added dropships at some point between 3005 and 3030, had to add a jumpship during this period, one of the remaining two jumpships is larger than Invader-class, or by 3030 they had to make two trips to move all their forces. So its unlikely the Hephaestus breaks down into more than 4 pieces.
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Requiem
02/06/21 03:13 PM
1.158.229.22
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Batchall – “The two sides then bid for what forces will participate in the contest.”
And this is where the wheels fall off – when reading the rules the term “forces” utilized – forces relates to ALL types of units within the overall military deployment ie their complete TO&E – it does not just relate to the offensive units! When considering D-day does anyone just consider those utilized within Overlord? No they must also consider Neptune!
So again the TPTB completely mishandled their own rules and their own initial bids and were therefore forced to introduce the PGCs in order to fix the mathematics of the game – however when investigating each clans TO&E they only had a very small number that in NO WAY could have fixed their garrison problems, then there is the issue of what happens when a closed society is introduced to an open society etc etc …..
When considering an invasion logistics and logistics fleet numbers MUST be included! – though the major issue is that no one even decided to write these forces into the game as well as any form of a schedule / complement as to logistical support …and in so doing created a one sided and completely dull story that lacked any form of believability (especially when it comes to replacement sibko numbers) and when it comes to considering all the dimensions of war – especially when it comes to considering cause and effect …..
Also what about the 20 year update TO&E for each house and then the second House books are printed – what ever happened to the each houses forces? Sorry but I cannot and will not consider the invasion story believable ….. I consider the entire history 3039 onwards not that great, and as such requires a massive re-write …. The story is just NOT believable
Can anyone even consider the war of 3039 or Turtle Bay or Huntress or crating single weapon mechs as a response to clan omni mechs issues believable?
Can anyone believe the houses response to the Clan invasion?
Warships
Problem is naval forces are and always will be an integral part of the military – they cannot be removed – thus they are the true king of the battlefield – then, in strategic importance are aerospace fighters and after them finally BattleMechs …
If one side is has them then there must be parity for the other side … thus if the Clans have Warships the IS must be provided with either PT craft or nukes otherwise the story can only be considered to be wandering into the ridiculous!!!!!!!!! And this is what occurred you cannot put the biggest gun on the battlefield and expect both sides not to use / attack them especially post Turtle Bay – as again Clans actions define their intentions and intentions derive an equal and opposite response from IS Houses – and in this case this can only be one – NUCLEAR WAR! In the absence of the IS not having warships of their own or PT craft …..
The only way to limit naval forces is via the Ares conventions – restricting their ability to close on a world and forbidding their use in orbital bombardments ….
Otherwise Ground forces must be allowed Naval energy weapons to strike at them from the ground ….
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The clans trials would make sure they they were not destroyed as each clan would try to claim another’s supplies.
Then why wasn’t there any battles for each other’s logistics included in the history?
Naval battles for entire fleet’s of logistical materials should have been considered as a means of disrupting competitor Clan forces – especially with regards to Falcon and Wolf
Again the canon story has no real credibility when drilling down to the nuts and bolts ….
Space stations
How many people are required to make a space station
How much resources are required? How will deviating these resources affect ‘Mech production due to a decrease in available metals?
Again there is next to no information as to understand what is going on just an overarching statement that it is there!
I would also like to point out where these stations are built – why wouver told yu build them so far distant from the front lines - shouldn’t they be almost be on top of the invasion corridor in order to reduce time required to resupply forces on the front lines?
Again this makes absolutely no strategic sense whatsoever unless you are trying to hide them from rival Clan Naval forces …. But that doesn’t matter as the Clan Khans (experts in warfare?) didn’t even consider this tactic …..
Sorry but I am not impressed …. Re-write please!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/06/21 03:41 PM
1.158.229.22
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The Khwarazm Empire and the Chainelane Isles was discovered and captured during Clan’s journey to the IS prior t the start of Operation Revival – they were not existing supply bases for the invasion – they only became such in the years after if at all ….
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Regarding safcon for non-combatant spacecraft, WoK page 120 "Even in those cases when Clan ships are not approaching a world to engage in trial, the inbound vessels may broadcast a 'beam of neutrality' ... avoiding any hostile actions from the occupying troops."
Let’s complete the full narrative …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Safcon
Many Clan WarShips and JumpShips will broadcast a message declaring their neutral status when arriving at a system and not engaging in a Trial. This can be considered a type of safcon, but any opponent is not required to honor it.
“, but any opponent is not required to honor it.”
So where are the Naval battles for entire fleets of Clan logistics!
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No one tried to take it because the Dragoon's were a serious force to contend with
Can I laugh now? Compared to an entire House they are not that serious ….. and what would happen if two or more houses decided to kill of the wolves at the same time?
You can build a mercenary force too large and as such will be required to be destroyed as it is a threat – as seen by the DC reaction
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The Combine was the first and only one to make a move on it
Marik civil war?
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As far as moving it, it was modular and could be deconstructed into smaller parts, each attaching to a jumpship docking collar.
And what about those created by the clans were they also modular – as the rules say space stations can’t be?
One rule for one group and one rule for another group
Sorry but I am not impressed ….. re-write please
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/06/21 04:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans aren't the IS when raiding supplies from each other. They use a batchall to create the conflict in which to win the supplies from the enemy. Goals and number of forces are stated during it. The defender could very well say one mechanic with a wrench defends this station, and the aggressor would try to bid a force so as to make the attack close to even, if they can. Safecon would be foolish to give, especially since the attacker would be coming in to take your equipment and you have a very limited defense for, so the next attacker has be worried about as well. Reinforcements are not coming quickly.
And as the clans are more likely to lose face due to not having enough supplies, taking them from another clan would be far more honorable. It hurts the clan losing those supplies more, as you lose the supplies and face for not being able to protect your bases.
Again. When has any bid included who the repair crew was? Or even that there was one there? The clans do not include support units in their bid. PERIOD. It is printed that the clans do not include support units. They explain this with the PGCs being brought up.
What is maintenance for? Oh yeah. To keep something in working order. So you are suggesting that the entire time the ships engines are shut off, they get no maintenance done, so they could malfunction when needed. Good to know that you don't have a clue on keeping things working even if they aren't being used. Even with lithium batteries, the warships engines would have to be used, if for nothing more then station keeping while the sails are collecting power.
Life isn't fair. So far, several countries in the world had gotten overrun by others, with weapons the loser did not have, nor could get in order to stop their fall. Nuclear weapons being a big one. It took time for others to gain that weapon. It was simple compared to building a warship. Even naval weapons were taking time as testing them and refining things does take time. Some flaws do not show up the first time you use it. Hell, some don't show up until years afterwards, and that isn't even going into the manufacturers covering things up, like the Cameron Battleship in the game.
For the land war game, warships represent something that can not be fought against on the ground. Land based naval weapons are a fact in the game, though retconned in afterwards, like the SDS entry says. Part of that defense was land based weapon systems.
And again. The Ares convention was a piece of paper the houses ignored during wars. A few houses continue to ignore parts of it every time then enter into a fight. Poisoning water supplies is one such part ignored by the DC. It is only as good as the words of the current leaders. No way to really enforce it in the IS.
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ghostrider
02/06/21 04:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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You do understand that you just countered your trying to use Safecon to stop clans from taking other clans supplies?
The idea of safecon is that it allows the DEFENDER to let the ATTACKER land without being shot at. There is NOTHING there that says the ATTACKER can not strike at the defender. So there is nothing but defense forces stopping the attacker from taking supplies.
Again, the one location defense of the realm comes out. What prevents a house from sending a massive force against the Dragoons, or anyone for that fact, and wiping them out? You have to protect your assets from others. Something that seems to be missing from the statements provided in the threads. You can NOT protect a world from invasion from a single point. It is even more impossible to do so with having forces only on a central world of a large space organization. This is yet another show that tactics is not a strong point in plans.
You pull forces from one region, and it will be attacked when information gets out. Even pirates will raid with abandon until you can get back there. And that will cost you dearly, if you remove the defensive units protecting factories. Those out laying units do provide defense for the factory garrison as they can be called in or harrass the enemy. Basic tactics. Tried and true, and shown as required. You must guard something in order to try and prevent it's destruction or capture. Going in afterwards means you are likely to lose it entirely.
Rewriting the game history is done by retcon, as they are not going to just start from scratch. This is why more holes are forming. TPTB don't seem to be looking over their own history, and just adding in things that don't fit.
I might think it is because they spilled beer or coffee on their paperwork that had the figures and didn't realize what was lost. Then just put in things without realizing they conflicted with other.
But as we suggested a while back, they will not do like D&D does, and redo the entire game. Which might well be the only way to get it all on the same level. Rules first, then writing it. It can NOT be the other way around.
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Requiem
02/06/21 11:11 PM
1.158.229.22
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The clans aren't the IS when raiding supplies from each other. They use a batchall to create the conflict in which to win the supplies from the enemy.
When Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed banks, he replied ‘because that’s where the money is.’
The hypothetical principle is the same here - when obtaining supplies for the apocalypse will you either use a shopping cart or will you drive a semi up to the rear gate and go for the entire warehouse?
Why would you create a batchall for limited supplies that have already been allotted to individual units when you can just as easily send out your Navy and take the entire fleet of jump-ships, drop-ships, crew, all logistics (this also included replacement Mechs, fighters, elementals etc) and all replacement personnel (warriors and techs etc) and in so doing effectively kneecap your rival Clan at the same time – making them extremely vulnerable to attack by other Clans as well as the IS (as too many failures and they will never be allowed to be Il-Clan – and effectively removing them from the race!) as it will take another six months or more before the next supply fleet arrives within the IS – and this is after all what Clan Politics is striving for, humiliating your enemy and your rivals whilst proving your Clan is superior to all others, is it not?
Remember the Clans are in no way allies they are competitors for the highest prize that can be obtained in their society and which Khan would allow another to take that prize from them? – and remember as far as the Clans are concerned the end justifies the means! And this is all within the rules – thus is green!
So unless you want to start a massive naval war within the deep periphery you have but one choice (which also confirms to the Clans tenant of waste / efficiency in all things) …. Safcon until logistics reach the front line units.
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Again. When has any bid included who the repair crew was? Or even that there was one there? The clans do not include support units in their bid. PERIOD.
AGAIN – this is NOT a simple attack to obtain resources – this IS an invasion of another superpower, to not include logistics into the equation is beyond ludicrous!
And again a PGC is NOT a support unit it is a military force – that is unless you remove all their weapons.
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What is maintenance for?
Even then there can still be issues ….. keeping an engine continually idling problems may still occur – they are usually difficult to isolate as they are usually system malfunction deep within the engine.
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…. Life isn't fair ….
True, the Clans have Warships and the IS Houses have massive stockpiles of nukes (as seen by the succession wars etc.) – so the point is?
They take out a city with a warship you take out that warship with a massive nuclear strike – this is a proportionate strike and reasonable!
The problem is the TPTB wrote a ludicrous story about the DC sitting back and taking one right up the ______
Time to face facts Takashi would have nuked the Clans off every world if Theodore did not restrain him at that point.
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The Ares convention was a piece of paper the houses ignored during wars.
Sorry but no, the rules of warfare are drummed into every soldier from day one! The consequences of breaking them are just too great ….
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You have to protect your assets from others. Something that seems to be missing from the statements provided in the threads.
Reaction time – if you are able to strike and destroy your enemy with overwhelming firepower and then return prior to the enemies other forces from launching a counter attack then an attack can be ordered.
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It is even more impossible to do so with having forces only on a central world of a large space organization.
Sorry but no it is possible ….
Travel through uninhabited systems;
Come out at a pirate jump point as close the planet in question;
Burn in as quickly as possible;
Launch a massive aerospace fighter attack as a first strike upon all major military targets;
Massive Land for ces
By the time the enemy reacts it is all over….
A point that was clearly demonstrated during the 3rd Succession War …
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You must guard something in order to try and prevent it's destruction or capture.
How many forces to how many worlds?
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Rules first, then writing it. It can NOT be the other way around.
It is all about cash flow – how to get it – then how to expand – why fix the rules when this will only affect a small number of people? There is no real growth to your cash flow!
Whereas, if you create a dynamic new story that will drive more people to the game through access to a massive number of new people – cash revenue will increase.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/07/21 02:48 AM
66.74.60.165
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Learn the definition of Safecon. It does not prevent fights. It is nothing more then saying the attacker can land units without the defender firing on them until they have landed.
You will not redefine the definition of the game terms and rules while arguing canon material. The argument is how the clans were able to use PGCs and even supplies routes that you don't agree with. Then saying they don't work for you. Stop arguing canon if you can not keep the definitions correct. Otherwise, you might as well say WOB invaded the clan worlds with their super jumpdrive ships and brought in all the supplies for them. This is a very large part of why you don't understand things, or so you have said you didn't.
Yes. There can be issues with anything. The reason to keep maintenance on things is to keep them in tip top shape for when it is needed. Not sure why it would be necessary to continuously have to keep a warship engine constantly on. If anything, the use of them would wear out the thrusters and ducting to send the thrust out. Having them shut down for as long as you can would be a better idea.
Still not getting that if you use one nuke, you will create a war that is nothing but nukes?
And the penalty of violating the Ares convention? Really? You are reading the same history as the rest of us? The entire history of warfare has been riddled with violations of the convention. Punishment only comes IF the perpetrators are not protected by a great house, or can be captured. Even the FC had ordered units to wipe out entire villages. That is why they tend to pose as pirates. So blame can not be pointed at them. And even if it does, what really happens? People get mad, but that is not going to really stop anything. Only the small fry, which pirates have been committing crimes against the conventions for ages. A few even die of old age without ever being in jail for it.
Wow. You still think you can take 2 months to head out and attack a world and return instantly when someone attacks you. This is NOT Terra, where you can fly a bomber around the world in less then a day. This is talking about going to a jump point, jumping into another system, probably multiple systems and getting back. This also does not include if you didn't get the job done on the world you are attacking. As you love having spies that know everything and instantaneously rely to their own forces, you would just be jumping out of the system when the enemy is coming in. This is not that realistic, but the enemy will be watching.
Huh? How did the 3rd war come from the fact you can not have all forces stationed on a central world of a large collection of worlds in space, and protect them all?
Barring the central world guarding others, the very tactic you explain is normally set off when the enemy hits a world with a raid, and you send everything you can to stop them, yet they are actually hitting another world with their large groups.
The FS did NOT launch everything into the CC. They had to protect worlds as well as attack. And they did. All of these forces were not stationed on New Avalon and physically went out from there.
The main reason why the FS won so much is that the DC didn't respond well, and the CC did not have the time to move around forces, which is why taking worlds was a bit difficult. The counter attack was basically destroyed before it did much, but it wasn't like the CC had many forces to even try.
Each location has it's own requirements, which can not be put down as every location needs a lance or company to guard it. Defiance would require a large group, while a backwater world that is nothing more then a personal holding for the crown might get just some militia. To even ask how many shows a lack of understanding defensive tactics.
The very game that you are complaining about pretty much went the route of a story and not having the rules set after the initial release. There are multitudes of games that have done the same thing. Most are unknown to barely remembered. You can NOT write the story without the rules, as the rules gives you the concrete basis to make the back story fit with current events. I have yet to see one game or even series of movies that doesn't have some major holes in it. Not that they are bad, just have issues with things not lining up.
Fixing issues first has to be done before you can do any sort of retcon or rewrite. Otherwise you just recreate the same issues with a different story.
Example. Changing the way infantry takes damage, would mean a single lance of mechs could NOT take a world with a company of infantry on it, without destroying the capital where the infantry would be stationed. Short ranges would allow them to destroy a lance. An Awesome in a city that could not wipe out 3 platoons of infantry at one go, when earlier they could shows the issue.
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Cray
02/07/21 11:47 AM
71.47.193.139
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And the penalty of violating the Ares convention? Really? You are reading the same history as the rest of us? The entire history of warfare has been riddled with violations of the convention.
The Ares Conventions were suspended in 2578 by the new Star League and never formally returned to use, which is why the Reunification War and Star League Civil War saw so many WMDs and orbital bombardments. The Houses made a symbolic gesture in the late 2780s to renounce the Conventions, which is why the First and Second Succession Wars killed hundreds of billions of people.
In short, the Ares Conventions were suspended about 450 years before the original 3025 start of the setting, and every House renounced them about 250 years before 3025. The Conventions were never restored.
The Third Succession War saw the evolution of an informal set of rules that made WMDs unpopular, but by and large held little resemblance to the Ares Conventions. The Ares Conventions, after all, *did* allow nuclear weapons (if used in space), but turned combat into a near-bloodless battle of maneuver and positioning. The Third Succession War and later conflicts violated the Ares Conventions in every battle by not allowing time outs (seriously) and featuring battles-to-the-death.
The two-year Fourth Succession War is noted as killing as many people as the 150 years of the Age of War fought under the Ares Conventions.
For details on how the Ares Conventions were renounced centuries before 3025, please see Sourcebook: House Marik, the Star League Sourcebook, and Strategic Operations.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
02/07/21 03:25 PM
1.158.229.22
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Learn the definition of Safecon. It does not prevent fights. It is nothing more then saying the attacker can land units without the defender firing on them until they have landed.
Exactly – the logistics fleet can land within the IS invasion corridor without another clan firing on them until they have landed!
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You will not redefine the definition of the game terms and rules while arguing canon material.
Whom are the people that comprise a PGC? … ans. …. Warriors
Whom are the people that comprise a support unit? … and. … Non-warriors
As far as I am concerned this was cheating and was the only way TPTB could have enacted their canon story! Creating rules that allowed the Clans to prosper at the expense of the IS …. Just like so many other rules
Not-being allowed to create …
Anti elemental rifle as ne 50 cal to the head should have killed them given that an old man and his daughter could use a sledge hammer and a spike to kill an elemental; as well as spikes falling from the roof could impale them!
PT craft – you are not allowed to put naval weapons on dropships that are permanently in space?
Where is the IS Navy?
IS Omni-mechs – where are they in numbers to equal that of the Clans
Wolf’s Dragons – they come clean and yet do not supply their navy t the cause – they did absolutely nothing to prepare the IS for the oncoming invasion and we are expected to believe that the great houses will just say that is OK?
The One year of peace – completely mismanaged
The 15 years of peace – completely mismanaged
The defection of Clans and yet they do not assist with IS technology?
The idea that you will only attack ONE CLAN!!!!!!!!
Reverse engineer clan tech
Huntress – all the tech you can want!
Turtle Bay – an actual samurai response should have occurred
The 20 year update of units reduced to half?
All the major characters were still alive at the start of the Clan invasion and the response by them was the most ludicrous and ridiculous response imaginable!
Sorry but NO the entire Cannon Clan invasion, as written, is beyond ludicrous …..
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WOB invaded the clan worlds with their super jumpdrive ships and brought in all the supplies for them.
And we are supposed to believe that hidden worlds with vast amounts of technology and people were available to ComStar during their entire history, including the Clan Invasion, and yet they refused to use them – they only used the ComGuard ???????????
Sorry but no …. Once more a ridiculous story ….. though the idea that the WOB would send a fleet to kill of the Clan’s home worlds would actually make more sense at this stage !!!!!
Also where is the rest of the IS reverse engineering WOB tech ? where is my transformable fighter ? sorry but by this stage the wheels had completely fallen off …..
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Having them shut down for as long as you can would be a better idea.
This will do wonders for life support – lighting – radar – the galley – waste processing etc ……. fumble around in the dark as the oxygen decreases and the cold of space envelopes the entire ship ……
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Still not getting that if you use one nuke, you will create a war that is nothing but nukes?
Then come up with a way of killing off a warship that does not involve them !!!!!
Post Turtle Bay what is the response? Then when threatened AGAIN in Lyran space? The rulers can only interpret the actions as per the information supplied – this is not a kids game it is WAR !!!!!
They are the biggest gun on the battlefield and all they do is sit there and everyone hopes they will not be used !!!!!
If they are brought into the game then there MUST be a means of killing them off – so either PF Craft or Nukes or allow the IS to have warships at the same time. Choose.
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This is not that realistic, but the enemy will be watching.
How did that work out on completion of Hanse’s wedding Toast? …. For ComStar, DC, FWL and CC ????????
Also it is all about viability and money …. Without it the game will shut down …
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the Ares Conventions
Thus as given … the clans use an orbital bombardment and samurai do NOTHING? After so many years of using them the idea that they wouldn’t in this case is once more beyond ludicrous !!!!!
However it is the principle of MAD that keeps things in check …. And yet we are supposed to believe that House forces will use them en mass up to a certain point and yet when the Clan invade they refrain from utilizing them ??????? either you have them and use them or they are removed from the game completely – choose.
And yet history, the International Criminal Court and treaties are finally starting to bring light, the law and restrictions to those who committed them – try explaining the atrocities committed by your own forces to future generations …. History WW2 – 11th Armored Div. Chenogne Belgium Jan 1 1945 – the Chenogne Massacre.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/07/21 05:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Is logic even part of your posts anymore?
What does this statement: Exactly – the logistics fleet can land within the IS invasion corridor without another clan firing on them until they have landed! have to do with preventing another clan from raiding supplies?
How does this have anything to do with a clan attacking another clans supply depot for supplies?
Oh my! The developers made sure that the IS couldn't just walk over the invaders with ease? That is just horrible. Does that mean this story doesn't follow almost every story that is a series? The story line proceeds in pretty much the way it would with limited intelligence on the part of the IS, and this can not stand? Some of what they did is BS, as no defender would just ignore the attackers weapons as being too expensive, while creating even more expensive weapons that aren't tested.
Some of the very things you complain about is very logical as they are done. To hand over tech to someone that will absolutely use it against you is very stupid. The clans that defected would defend their areas, but not trust the rest with it.
The concept that there are some things that can not be automatically responded against seems to allude your thinking. There are also some situations that require you to just leave some loss of face alone. As stated, the entire first war with the DC/FS is one of them. According to your views of Japanese culture, the losses from that war would not allow them to stop until they are all dead. Nukes were used in the DC as counter strikes happened. This could not be tolerated by your definitions.
The hidden worlds represents stupidity at it's finest. First off, these worlds would have been stripped of resources during the SL time. If not, then they shortages of resources would not have happened. The reason for the SL was so the TH could get fresh resources in. So start there before complaining about the future. Also, if comstar knew of those worlds, then they are not hidden. Comstar should have hit them when WOB was starting. And yet nothing was diverted to holdingt those worlds when WOB started taking over.
Prime example today. The U.S has not given away the secrets to building some technology to allies it has across the world. Russia hasn't given the ability to make their tech to their allies. They are all to buy it from those that have it, and use contracts so home techs deal with fixing and maintaining them. So why should the future be different? Also the SLDF was not free in giving out their tech. There was a lot of things the houses could not build.
And with the Blake ideology, WOB would have definitely went to war with the clans. Blake Ideals were to rebuild the IS, not some military forces left over from the SLDF.
And transformable fighters are removed from the game because of lawsuits in real life. This is not something the developers can do much about.
What do you think happened in the IS? It took a few years, but they did make warships along with capital weapons. But that is the point. It took years. It was not available the moment or even before the clans showed up.
Yes. How did that work out in the 4th war? The forces were set up to go, but were not sitting on New Avalon for their assaults. All entities moved forces, but those of the DC/FWL/CC did not believe Hanse would do something at his own wedding. The fact that their intel department did not really catch as much of the movement of forces says it all. Had they done so, the FC would have been hurt far more then what they were. But it still would have been far worse for all, if they went with your idea of all combat forces being on the capital world and deployed from there. Multiple worlds would have been raided and destroyed before any type of forces could get near them from the capital worlds. And that is not even counting the fact that there is not enough transportation to move them. So having garrisons on worlds saves them from being taken, as you don't have the ability to move forces around to cover them.
just because the DC did not launch a stupidly organized suicide assault on the Jaguars, did not mean they did not move to punish them. The situation didn't allow much of a major offensive, so they had to wait and do what they could.
Edited by ghostrider (02/07/21 05:56 PM)
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Wick
02/07/21 07:21 PM
173.247.25.195
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The Khwarazm Empire and the Chainelane Isles was discovered and captured during Clan’s journey to the IS prior t the start of Operation Revival – they were not existing supply bases for the invasion – they only became such in the years after if at all …
Wait... I supply an actual canon quotation proving that they were, and you still disagree with it? I honestly don't know where to go with this. The only thing I can imagine is that you're getting your facts out of order. Go vote for Operation Revival happened first, Clans then jockeyed for placement, the Invading Clans moved to the Periphery in mid-3049, invading Clans occupy those worlds and established supply depots on some of them in late 3049, then they move into House space in early 3050. This order is established in multiple books (Warriors of Kerensky being one of them) and is not disputable. Circa 3059 or later the ComStar maps start to show these systems. I will grant that some of them may have been established anytime between 3050 and 3059, but Warriors of Kerensky states definitively that some exist in 3049.
The Clans knew where the edge of House space was because the Outbound Light carried ComStar maps (not that it had changed much since the fall of the Star League.) Thus when they discovered a suitable world that would be only a few jumps from the front-lines, they could use it as a supply depot. They didn't need depots in the deeper periphery, which is why realms like the Hanseatic League were left alone. They were too distant to serve any purpose to the invasion. They didn't really need supply depots to conquer the bandit kingdoms or nearer periphery worlds because the quality of resistance was poor. In 3049 they anticipated the invasion lasting 3 years (15 waves of ten-weeks each) so clearly they knew they'd need some supply bases in the near periphery before moving into more occupied areas of known space.
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So where are the Naval battles for entire fleets of Clan logistics!
Because there's no honor in it. Using your naval force to attack a supply base with no naval force violates the spirit of batchall. If they want to have mech fights and such, I'll buy that, but warships were too precious and rare to allow storing one at every supply base.
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Can I laugh now? Compared to an entire House they (Wolf's Dragoons) are not that serious
Five-plus elite-ranked reinforced mech regiments spread across just one to three worlds is. The fact they obliterated nine of the DCMS's best regiments in the 4th Succession War proves just how serious a threat they could be when provoked.
I'm actually laughing that you think they're wimps when they did such horrendous damages to the Combine's war machine. I never suggested they could defeat an entire House army - this is something you've thought of. All I meant was an employing house would suffer great losses trying to take the Hephaestus Station from the Dragoons. Besides losing the five-plus regiments of the Dragoons, the Combine took a net loss over the matter of over fourteen mech regiments. For a Combine that started the Fourth Succession War with about 80 mech regiments, that was nearly 18% of their entire mech force. Not really a laughing matter.
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Marik civil war?
Did either side make a move on Hephaestus Station? I'm aware of Anton Marik's kidnapping/arrest of Joshua Wolf and families of the Dragoons, but not trying to take the station. In any event, the move against the the Dragoons cost Anton his life and his rebellion was crushed. They probably would have destroyed nine regiments of Anton's mechs too if he had had that many.
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And what about those created by the clans were they also modular – as the rules say space stations can’t be?
The Bastion was a Star League-era modular Battlestation moved about by jumpship by the same means as Hephaestus Station.
Whether TPTB have given rules to dictate this or not can be questioned, but the existence of modular, jumpship-transportable stations in-universe can not.
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Why would you create a batchall for limited supplies that have already been allotted to individual units when you can just as easily send out your Navy and take the entire fleet of jump-ships, drop-ships, crew, all logistics (this also included replacement Mechs, fighters, elementals etc) and all replacement personnel (warriors and techs etc) and in so doing effectively kneecap your rival Clan at the same time – making them extremely vulnerable to attack by other Clans as well as the IS (as too many failures and they will never be allowed to be Il-Clan – and effectively removing them from the race!) as it will take another six months or more before the next supply fleet arrives within the IS
Problem 1: This convoy is going to come with mechs, fighters, and well rested warriors. You're going to expect to use up nearly the same amount of resources to capture such a convoy from another Clan (maybe with tired warriors) thereby crippling your own drive to Terra in the same process you seek to cripple the opponent. Now a third Clan has the edge on both of you. If you want to kneecap your rival, fine. But kneecapping yourself as well in the process? Not so smart. Maybe your plan works if there were but two invading Clans, but four makes such a plan very dangerous. The better plan is to let the convoy arrive, disperse its materials across the enemies worlds, and then Trial for what you need, keeping your risk to a minimum. And that's exactly what happens in the stories. Perhaps FASA and the authors had considering hijacking a convoy en-route, but ran into the same problem I just described and dismissed it as unworkable. (Sounds like the kind of nonsense they would have written the Ice Hellions to do though.)
Problem 2: You are assuming that each convoy arrives every six months, with only one ship in transit at a time. Its far more likely they had convoys arriving every week or two, with multiple ships going back and forth simultaneously. This allows distributing your needs across multiple convoy trips, rather than putting all your eggs into a single basket. Given that misjumps occur, the Clans would be wise to do this. Thus, hijacking another Clan's convoy only delays them a few weeks from replenishment of at least some of their needs. Now if you happened to hit the right convoy that had something unique (experimental mechs, prized genetic legacies, etc.), you might be on to something that really could set them back six months.
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Rules first, then writing it. It can NOT be the other way around.
ghostrider, we'd still be stuck in 3025 Succession War era if this were true. Even 30 years later things are retconned into this era (or earlier eras) which disrupts things.
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Requiem
02/08/21 12:54 AM
1.158.229.22
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How does this have anything to do with a clan attacking another clans supply depot for supplies?
Either a Naval war within the deep periphery as Clans (and the IS) engage in a ‘silent war’ for rival Clan logistical support fleets or the Clans adopt a safcon until they arrive within the IS – thus they only have to contend with IS forces attacking them.
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The story line proceeds in pretty much the way it would with limited intelligence on the part of the IS, and this can not stand?
Levity is unbecoming …
As demonstrated many times within this post the IS has the ability to generate a massive amount of intelligence – the Clans really have no idea when it comes to intelligence gathering / counter intelligence.
Thus yes, as far as I am concerned, the entire story as written is a complete BS.
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To hand over tech to someone that will absolutely use it against you is very stupid. The clans that defected would defend their areas, but not trust the rest with it.
This is the price they pay to be allowed into the Star League …. technology, education etc for worlds …. How difficult is this?
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the losses from that war would not allow them to stop until they are all dead.
Historical fact – Gen. Anami on Aug. 13 remarked that the atomic bombings were no more menacing than the fire-bombing that Japan had endured for months. If Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no worse than the fire bombings, and if Japan’s leaders did not consider them important enough to discuss in depth, how can Hiroshima and Nagasaki have coerced them to surrender?
The nuclear weapons DID NOT cause the Japanese to surrender – with the introduction of the Russians into the war is when the Japanese decided to surrender as they did not want to become subservient to the Russians as those in Europe were.
The idea that the nuclear weapons were the reason for the end of the war is a myth perpetuated by America in order to alleviate their guilt for using them in the first place.
Within the game when you consider that Takashi Kurita is still alive at this point in time the only logical recourse is a limited Nuclear Strike upon the Smoke Jaguars! There is no other recourse for the DC in order to maintain face and Honour – something that TPTB completely do not comprehend or they decided to completely ignore.
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The U.S has not given away the secrets to building some technology to allies it has across the world.
No it sells them ….. consider Taiwan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_arms_sales_to_Taiwan
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Russia hasn't given the ability to make their tech to their allies.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/us-allies-continue-buying-weapons-from-russia/1653985
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the SLDF was not free in giving out their tech.
Mother Doctrine – restricting the dissemination of advanced tech.
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And transformable fighters are removed from the game because of lawsuits in real life.
Problem is they are in the Jihad era books and has there been a lawsuit to date regarding their images as the idea themselves are not protected under law? So unless there is a cease and desist order yes they can do something about it.
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What do you think happened in the IS? It took a few years, but they did make warships along with capital weapons.
And in the interim period between when the Clans brought them into the IS and when the Houses began manufacturing them?
And as the only IS weapon system available to kill them off is the nuke ………
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just because the DC did not launch a stupidly organized suicide assault on the Jaguars, did not mean they did not move to punish them.
To understand this you need to understand the concept of Face as well as House Honour - consider terrorist attack and the proportionate response of the Military – they destroy a city with a WMD from a Naval vessel – DC wipes the ship from existence with a massive nuclear strike! It is really just that simple! It is NOT a major offensive it IS a proportionate response.
And before anyone says they would never do this consider how far the US went when they were attacked.
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The Khwarazm Empire and the Chainelane Isles
3048 Nov 21st – Clans vote to initiate Operation Revival
Thus 4 months to prepare for the IS invasion – realistic? Not very.
3049 March – Clans initiate exodus to the IS
Thus 6 months travel time that included the conquest of the 2 planetary groups - so where is the time to convert them into a logistics base? Especially when the chaineline isles are so close to the IS thus invaded and captured close to Aug 3049?
3049 Aug – Clans arrive within the Periphery initiating invasion
[qiuote]Thus when they discovered a suitable world that would be only a few jumps from the front-lines, they could use it as a supply depot.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Exodus_Road and https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:ChainelaneIslesMap.jpg
Map attached – closest Transfer Station J239H2 is behind the Chainelane Isles – would it not be more efficient to put it in front? – so how can this be considered close? Also where exactly is the Khwarazm empire as no one has placed it on a map to date?
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Because there's no honor in it. Using your naval force to attack a supply base with no naval force violates the spirit of batchall.
And yet the batchall clearly requests with what forces will you defend this base …. So unless the base is completely unguarded they can initiate a bachall and there is no loss of honour.
So either Naval battle; aerospace battle; battlemech battle or elemental battle …..
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Five-plus elite-ranked reinforced mech regiments spread across just one to three worlds
Half a dozen nuclear missiles – and a pile of slag.
They betrayed the IS – what level of response would the IS go to if they believed the Dragoons were a threat?
So unless they are completely contrite – provide their warships, all units to be immediately transferred to the front lines etc I doubt they would have lived very long.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hephaestus_Station
“It saw combat action at least once, when it was attacked by aerospace fighters at New Delos during the Marik Civil War …”
‘Hephaestus Station had probably been a highly modified Hughes-class yard station…. It was mobile in the sense that it could be disassembled into modules which had K-F Booms and could be moved via JumpShip like regular DropShips with Docking Collars, to be re-assembled at the destination site.’
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You're going to expect to use up nearly the same amount of resources to capture such a convoy from another Clan …
With what forces are you going to defend this fleet?
Problem is no one decided of determine what a logistics fleet was defended with – so even if it had just one aerospace fighter this is still enough to fight for the fleet – they could even fight unaugmented hand to hand if it came to that (Black Thorns / Blood Name Fight)
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You are assuming that each convoy arrives every six months, with only one ship in transit at a time.
Size of the fleet is immaterial – bet it one ship and dropships or ten it does not matter – the greatest reward is still an undistributed supply ship with its logistics intact compared to whatever a unit may possess!
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hijacking another Clan's convoy only delays them a few weeks from replenishment of at least some of their needs.
Supposition … there are no information as to the size / frequency of the fleet thus it could be one small ship at a time or fifty sips every six months – in the former only a small number of units can be resupplied at a time (though again it depends upon the frequency of attacks – if you can jump many of the ships week in week out same result) and in the latter everything in one hit will cause a major problem.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/08/21 02:31 AM
66.74.60.165
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The statement of the naval battles was not about the clans against each other, but for the IS to perform attacks on the clans supply lines. Someone still thinks the IS had the intel and ships to waste on hunting the periphery to hopefully engage supplies ships. That MIGHT happen once. After that, warships will accompany the rest.
I don't remember where, but it was suggested the Dragoons station was an Olympus style. And it was mess with during the Marik Civil war. I want to say the Dragoons source book had it in there.
The rules first statement is about getting a reboot of the game. They didn't stick with their rules, and keep writing in things they never had, or didn't want until it fit TPTB new story line. The Argo is a prime example of this. Yes, it was retconned into the game, but their was no other indication that you could make a dropship that another dropship could attached to and both use a jumpship to jump with. This would definitely have been used to transport large amounts of cargo at the least if it had been used before.
How about you have someone explain to you what Safecon really means. It is not something that prevents another entity from attacking your supply lines. It is only given to an attacker to allow them to land uncontested. Not allow a defender to move out from an attack. This still does not seem to be sinking in. Might be because you seem to think everything brought up is complete bs if it doesn't fit your view.
It is agreed that TPTB seemed to forget the black boxes. This is the ONLY leeway I will give for this. The fact that intel needs HPG transmissions when all jumpship travel is prevented, means the ONLY way to get up to the minute details is stopped. The fact that the FC intel figured out how to determine if a system was under attack is not the same thing as saying they had only a single Overlord C being used. And with this, they knew Comstar was feeding the clans intel so anything like a massed attack in one system would have left dozens of others open. The clans were not above leaving a small unit to fend off an attack while they rampaged thru other worlds. Some units would actually have bid on being the ones to hold the enemy in place.
It is very much stated the clans destroyed jumpships that were in system and were about to leave.
I did not see that admission into the SL was handing over all your tech. But then I suspect you would say an alliance means you hand over everything, and not bother to reciprocate. It doesn't happen in the world today, why would it happen in the future?
And as was said a while back, the NAIS had figured out clan tech. They didn't do much with it, as the costs were the issue. I don't agree with it, but that is the base line of it.
I suggest taking a day before responding to things as you are confusing more and more things. The first war is not WWI, but the 1st succession war. The fact that all sides used nukes to wipe out populations was fact. The DC had strikes against them inside their original borders. This fact would mean that the enemy would have to be completely destroyed, so there would never be an end to the succession war until that happen, by your own view. It was a huge stain on the honor of the DC. It meant the DCMS could NOT protect their own people.
So the selling of items is the same thing as giving the tech? Something does not compute here. Warrantee void if seal is broken... The very issue is why big tech is having problems with making things like computer chips over seas anymore. The countries that were making it are now making their own versions of it.
A way around that was to epoxy everything, so you would have to destroy the item in order to get a look inside. That has changed since the 70's.
Read your response. BUYING, not making the items. And they require you have THIER techs to work on and fire the system. Something you have missed in that.
And the easiest way for the Clans to have dealt with the IS barbarians would be nuke anything they did not need, and avoid tainting their society with the perverted views of the IS. Does that sound just as stupid?
Again, you show you have no idea of what honor is. The batchall is set so the defender states what they will defend with, so you can attack with something that will make the fight somewhat fair. To just bombard the station with a warship is dishonorable for the clans. Only a coward would do so, and they would be removed very quickly once they did it. And that is only against the clans. Might was well just forego the batchall at that point and just attack.
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ghostrider
02/08/21 02:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Again. Nukes are the only way to go. No tactical thinking whatsoever.
Now the stupid part. The Dragoons betrayed the IS? First off mercs have done so for the entire existence of being a mercenary, as the next person that pays for you will gain some intel. And a few are HIRED to be spies to gain intel. The dragoons were clan mercs sent in to gain that intel. It isn't like the Dragoons were BORN in the IS. OR was from a specific house and gave out their home secrets to the enemy. They did the job they were sent in to do. Their second objective given to them after their first mission was still going on, was to prepare the IS. If they had done ANYTHING prior to the invasion to even suggest they were part of the SLDF fleet that left, they would have been ripped apart and killed. So yeah. Let's say we are from the SLDF descendants and get killed before we can do anything.
If anything, the Dragoons betrayed the clans by following the orders of Kerlin Ward. Oh wait. That is what they were supposed to do, as the other clans had no authority to tell them otherwise.
And the thought of Safecon has come up to have me ask if you can Safecon the objective of the attack, so you can move the object away from the attackers, so they can't win it in battle. This is the very version you seem to be suggesting.
Wow. So the DC using poison and executions in their campaigns against others were not a violation of the rules of warfare? Oh wait. That can be said to be anything goes to win. And that sort of thinking almost means nukes are available, even though it means your prize is worthless until the radiation lessens enough.
And now the kicker. The Jaguars did not use that tactic afterwards and left the world as they could not control the population afterwards. Now it can be argued that if they continued to use bombardment as their main offensive, that the DC would have had to done the foolishly stupid charge unto death, and lost the entire combine quickly.
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Requiem
02/08/21 04:41 AM
1.158.229.22
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Naval battles within the deep periphery.
It should be about Clans fighting against each other – why else conduct raids to obtain supplies or to undertake Harvest Trials – it is just an extension of these trials – rebuilding at the expense of your competitor Clan.
As this is SOP for a Clan it can occur many times – if another Clan is weak in not defending that is their problem.
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How about you have someone explain to you what Safecon really means. It is not something that prevents another entity from attacking your supply lines.
Comprehension …. from a legal point of view – it IS acceptable …..
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The fact that intel needs HPG transmissions when all jumpship travel is prevented.
Actually this is not totally correct – prior to the establishment of the HPG grid Aviso Class message dispatch ships (pony express) were utilized to receive a burst transmission form a planet then jump out with the information to a safe system which would then be burst transmitted back to a safe planet for further action by a local military unit. Message time increases with the number of Jumps required by the ship(s).
Thus as long as the relief force is within one jump they should be able to receive the transmission message within a very short period of time and be able to respond accordingly.
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The clans were not above leaving a small unit to fend off an attack while they rampaged thru other worlds.
Garrison Force – which quickly adds up so that when you subtract all garrisons from the main force this number quickly deteriorates to a very small number ie. by the time you reach 75% of the distance to Terra most Clans would have run out of all front line forces needed to continue the invasion!
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The DC had strikes against them inside their original borders …. This fact would mean that the enemy would have to be completely destroyed, so there would never be an end to the succession war until that happen
Isn’t this the exact situation the DC find themselves in with the Clans?
They had no idea – unless you have a very good blood hound and Ouija board – that the Clans would not keep on using WMD Orbital strikes …. Thus as per 1st Succession War Rules of War, FULL NUCLEAR STRIKE
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BUYING, not making the items
Keep reading …. Buying Russian Weapon systems so that they can be reverse engineered to improve existing weapon systems / work out their weaknesses. How long will it take to just complete a materials analysis? and how many countries are experts at this – Japan, China ….. etc.
Also how many organisations within the game are supposed to be experts at reverse engineering – NAIS – Banzai – Uncle Chandy’s people – WOB etc etc.
Cost aside canon stated the IS were able to reverse engineer Clan Tech …. So the point is?
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And the easiest way for the Clans to have dealt with the IS barbarians would be nuke anything they did not need,
Who has more nukes on hand as well as the facilities to mass produce them as well as the resolve to kill off their own people to win in the end?
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To just bombard the station with a warship is dishonorable for the clans. Only a coward would do so
How about we look at Phelan’s trial for a Blood Name – how “Honourable” was that?
How about the entire Political Century?
How about all the purges the clans undertook?
The Clans are not beyond committing “dishonourable” acts in order win.
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The Dragoons betrayed the IS?
Question what happens when you are identified as a being a spy for a foreign power during a time of war with that foreign power? Usually the answer is shot at dawn that is unless they flip and become a double agent.
So Dragoons what is it going to be shot at dawn or work for the IS - and that means all of your resources and all of your units on the front line!
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And now the kicker. The Jaguars did not use that tactic afterwards
As stated many times how does a House Lord know that a Clan will not use a WMD orbital strike again? Ans a very good blood hound and Ouija board
As a House Lord you cannot take the risk that they will not do it again – as they threatened to do so in the FC zone – one use is one too many – nuclear strike upon said warship is the only thing that can be done – it is a message to the Clan Khans you do this again and it will be nuclear war
Suggest you watch the film on John F. Kennedy’s embargo on Cuba when they were discussing with the Naval Admiral as to the new language they were using – this is exactly the same situation with Kurita and the Jaguar Khan – their actions are the language by which they are communicating with each other. Thus in order for Kurita not to appear weak in the others eyes the ship must be obliterated with a full nuclear strike!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/08/21 01:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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Safecon from a legal point is the defender can NOT expect safecon to remove the prize of the fight. This is the very heart of this discussion. It is very unlikely removing the prize of the fight at all, would turn out well for the defender. The challenge for a prize is at the heart of avoiding waste. To remove the prize would cause future combat to be just attack with everything and take it, much like the way the IS fights.
Guess the sentence: It is very much stated the clans destroyed jumpships that were in system and were about to leave. didn't register before the response. The houses would lose any jumpships spotted before they could get out. And to leave ships in all the threatened systems would have cut into their ability to move forces around. Much like trying to raid clan supply lines.
The lack of garrison numbers is a weakness written into the story. Given the fact most of the clans thought the IS would surrender shortly after their superior forces entered, they did not expect many battles, which means they would not need the garrisons. I agree there is a very major issue with the numbers on what they could actually have in the IS. They knew it in the story as they answered why only the corridor was the focus instead of hitting the entire IS.
The DC did not know if the clans had vast reserves either. The initial strikes from the clans was though to be a unit that found a large cache of league tech, until they got a hold of some of it. It was then that they realized it was beyond the SL. They did know that a single warship was beyond a small space battle to defeat. This is again where the lack of forces shows. And it also shows the need to defend other worlds, as they believed they could stop the clans, and anyone that thought of being a raider or pirate needed to remain fearful that if they even tried, they would die.
Funny. The statement of selling, not giving the tech was answered later in that paragraph. Remember this? And they require you have THIER techs to work on and fire the system. Violating the agreement would cause major issues with the sellers. And Russia is not above Spec ops to get their people and destroy anything that has or works on such an endeavor. They would also do so in the future when they found out more about where someone is doing so.
Now this is another point of reading the books to know all the resources the clans had. If not for them saying the clans were not nuke users, the concept of who had more would leave a question on if the clans did or not. And with this, once the clans blew every ship and station out of the sky, they could take the long run and nuke or bombard worlds with out much risk of being fired back at. This is why I believe TPTB would NOT allow ground batteries. It helps remove the threat of orbital bombardment. Spotty at best, but still better then nothing.
As much as you harp on the DC not knowing the clans wouldn't use bombardment as a main attack, they did not know if the clans would use nukes either.
Phelan is a freeborn IS warrior. In the minds of the brainwashed clans, only a trueborn can fight for a blood name. Which changed with Phelan and continued with Diana. Honor for them is to make sure the process isn't tainted by something like this. It was unfair that it was allowed to happen, but Phelan showed the clans that freeborns can infact be better the the trueborns by winning despite the bs.
Now you are talking about something that has changed in the IS. Spies hired by another for infiltration tend to be captured and traded back to the sender for your spies that are captured. Mercs are slightly outside the norm. As mercs, they are given a little leeway about this. The same merc that stole your intel, could very well be the same merc you are paying for intel on the entity that will steal some from that entity. Some get wiped as soon as they are found.
For the Dragoons, they did just that in the entire IS. THEY were giving intel on the enemy so attacks could be done, such as their first attack on the CC. Also, being mercs, why would the houses give them such access to intel that they did? Wolfnet got more intel then the Dragoons did about much. Only combat skills was the main thing the Dragoons themselves got, and that changes as new people move into positions of power.
Again. You use nukes, means they can use nukes in response. The bombardment is something that is hard to counter, but going straight to nukes would only cause an increase in destruction. Now had the DC known where the clan home worlds were, then nukes might be an option to remove their power base. Hitting a ship in space, especially when you don't know how many they have, does little to nothing to deter the enemy. Hitting the locations that make them does.
Also, defining new language would mean that the DC will not fight in any sort of honor would remove the few civil protocols from the Jaguars response in the DC. It would also negate the invasion agreement as the other clans would definitely rise up and demand to engage such a barbarian tactic like using nukes. Something that seems to have been overlooked.
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Requiem
02/08/21 04:05 PM
1.158.229.22
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The prize – Logistical Supplies – are not removed if Safcon is agreed to – whist in transport from Clan Space to the edge of each Clan’s Invasion Corridor each Khan agrees not to fight for another Clan’s Logistical supplies – thereafter it is fair game. Otherwise each Clan would have to divert resources to defend their Logistical Fleets whist in conveyance.
Wouldn’t this explain why there were no combat within the Deep Periphery between Clans for another Clans Logistical Fleets or Individual ships?
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The houses would lose any jumpships spotted before they could get out.
The Clan’s knowingly violated the rules of war – as the Dragoons would have included this information in their first information pouch - so no sympathy as each House is well within their rights to destroy each clans Jump-ships in response – and given their very small number, if nukes are used they will come off far worse.
Also jump-ships are only vulnerable if they are within range of their guns – otherwise due to the vastness of space they have a good chance of getting out.
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The lack of garrison numbers is a weakness written into the story.
And given that it was never exploited by any of the House’s military demonstrates a complete lack of understand as to how war is undertaken. – ie. once more hobbling the IS in favour of Clan forces.
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The DC did not know if the clans had vast reserves either
Can I laugh now? Optical intelligence ie a camera with a very good lens similar to a telescope that can shift into infra red etc and you can count the number of ships as well as they type of ships easily then there are intelligence agents on the ground who can steal the information from the Clans themselves – the Clans have no idea as when it comes to base / personal security after all – they would not realize they are no longer on their Clan home worlds after all and as such are incredibly vulnerable to attack via commando / intelligence agents / or if within the DC ninja.
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They did know that a single warship was beyond a small space battle to defeat.
All you need to do is look at historical documents for past naval battles to realise how vulnerable they are to aerospace assault with nukes and in five minutes you would be issuing strikes upon them – warships may appear to be invulnerable and yet one 5Kt nuke strike and they are dead (though the game stats wouldn’t agree due to making them able to survive for more than 5 seconds – in real life the thermal energy realised alone would just turn the majority of the ship to gas) ….
So until the game introduces energy shields for ships that can protect against a nuclear strike they are quite useless!
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Violating the agreement would cause major issues with the sellers.
No ….. first you can either steel it or you purchase through a broker plus everything comes with a users manual so you really do not need their techs at all.
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And Russia is not above Spec ops to get their people and destroy anything that has or works on such an endeavour.
Problem is they would be taken to a black site deep within your own country, so can it even be found? – thus making any spec ops attack impossible – that is unless you want to start a war.
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the concept of who had more would leave a question on if the clans did or not
Simple to answer – history – who used the most in the past would have the largest stockpile for fear that they would be used in the future!
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This is why I believe TPTB would NOT allow ground batteries.
And yet during the WOB Jihad they were allowed …. Plus in a military setting the rules are thrown out the window .. thus in all realty PT craft would have been created, anti elemental rifles would have been created, a complete reverse engineering of Clan tech (weapons / mechs / fighters / elemental suits for IS etc) would have occurred at a far more rapid rate that that within Canon setting etc etc
TPTB’s rules are worthless in this war setting …. Create your own weapons that would accurately reflect real world development and keep moving forward ….
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As much as you harp on the DC not knowing the clans wouldn't use bombardment as a main attack.
When fighting an unknown entity – every option is on the table – including Nukes – Post Turtle Bay there is no choice but to start using them.
TPTB not using them clearly shows that they have absolutely no understanding as to the concept of Face / a proportionate retaliatory strike(in my opinion) ….. especially since Takashi Kurita and Hanse Davion are both still alive at this point in time! Both would have ripped the Clan throat out in 5 seconds flat with the use of Nukes!
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Phelan is a freeborn IS warrior.
Irrelevant given that his DNA proves that he is the same as that of Clan warriors and his skills are just that good and at the same time his sponsor has accepted him as being the same as a Clan warrior!
Once revealed the Dragoons are spies they would be treated as such until they can provide a good enough reason to save their necks from the rope / firing squad. They have no protection whatsoever as being Mercs ….as a House Lord you cannot just let them off the hook no matter what – they must prove their allegiance to the IS or be branded as 5th Column – Mosley WW2 is a good example as well as all the German spies that became double agents for England.
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Again. You use nukes, means they can use nukes in response.
Actually this is an unknown …. Clan forces started this with an orbital strike – IS retaliates with a proportionate nuclear retaliatory strike – it is completely unknown if the Clans would want to escalate the war to Total Nuclear or they will come to the table to discuss the rules of war via Comstar.
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Hitting a ship in space, especially when you don't know how many they have, does little to nothing to deter the enemy.
Political necessity that that ship MUST DIE you must be willing to demonstrate to the enemy that if they use WMDs you are more than willing to ratchet up the intensity of the war by utilizing a WMD yourself otherwise you will appear weak in the eyes of your enemy – and can any Kurita Coordinator allow themselves to appear weak – ans: NO it would go against the code of the Samurai as well as the dictums of the House Honour – duty would demand no less than retaliatory WMD strike.
At this stage it is quite obvious that TPTB have no understanding as to the concept of Japanese Face / proportionate retaliatory strikes on the battlefield.
And again the message of using a nuke to the Clans – one that they must understand from the get go – if you act this way to my people expect a war of total carnage!
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It would also negate the invasion agreement as the other clans would definitely rise up and demand to engage such a barbarian tactic like using nukes.
Really? Sorry but this statement is completely in error … the Jaguars brought this on themselves by initiating a WMD orbital strike, the DC are well within their rights to kill off the ship that initiated the attack in the first place – same situation as the IS just killing off the Jaguars – the home Clans would blame the Jaguars for being so reckless not the DC for striking back at them.
So again nothing overlooked!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/08/21 06:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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The way you describe how Safecon works is very much like them removing the supplies from a fight. The supply carriers are not the attacker, so they can not invoke safecon.
The assumption that clans do not fight for supplies on the route is just that. Assumptions. The highlander book that had them pose as Jaguars and hit the Nova Cats shows they did indeed have defenders along the route to deal with such a threat.
The clans knowingly violated the rules of law? Please explain how they violated the rules of law when they had attacked jumpships and such in their homeworlds. Just because the IS declared them non combatants does not mean the clans had to follow this. This very question makes it sound like the DC can tell and enforce demanding all the other houses to switch to bushido. The clans did try to tell the IS they had to fight in the clans ways. That didn't happen.
Exploiting the fact that the PGCs numbers were low was not done due to the fact that no matter how much you wish it can be done, you can not just swim to another star system. You need jumpships, and with that, the risk of losing them far outweighed hitting what could very well be a concentration of units on a world. But again. Having the book tell you exactly what is there and when overrides logic that the houses didn't have this to go by.
Can I laugh now? I have yet to hear of any sort of telescope that can count the number of ships in a system even 30 light years away. The closest star system to us is about 3 light years, and we can't see all the worlds they have. They have to go with light levels dropping to even suggest there is something there. So yeah. The IS can tell exactly how many ships the clans have on the clans home worlds. OH yeah. The IS had mind reading spies that could rip all that information out of the clanners minds.
Well what to you know. The game says nukes are not that powerful, so they don't need energy shields. But again, saying the game is wrong because it doesn't fit your vision is all this is coming down to.
Maybe you need to research the actual agreements to using things like the S-300 and S-400 rocket systems that were used in several engagements in the past few years. The ones in eastern Europe for instance. Even the U.S sells planes that are stripped of high tech. If you want high tech, you have to agree to pay for a U.S tech to be there to work on it.
I went into real life with the last statement, so will try to avoid it again. Accidents happen. Trying to trace it to a specific person or nation is not easy, if it can be done. And just how are you going to take something like a tank to a black ops site to tear it apart when the person you bought it from will not let it get out of their sight. To do so, you risk starting a war, and as those that buy such equipment are in a bad spot to begin with, they are not going to try.
The SLDF used a lot of nukes hitting Amaris. Without knowing the clans philosophy, there is no way you would know if they had huge stockpiles of nukes just waiting to go. As the clans were invading to remove the house leaders, why wouldn't they just nuke capitals and large population bases, while keeping around production worlds? Because the books says they wouldn't. And there lies the answer. Arguing the game should have done this because the books say they have so much in stock.
The IS DID make dropships with capital weapons. They were missile launchers, which mean limited shots.
With WOB, they could not have the SDS system working without ground participating units, ie ground batteries. And part of the SDS system was remote bombs that were fighters and dropships. Which worked great which is in direct conflict to their own rules about remote controlled units.
You might think every option is on the table, but it isn't. The IS was used to waiting until they found the opening to retaliate. They did so with the clans. Launching nukes would have cause the IS to collapse even faster. Once one went off, everyone would start flinging them around to gain an advantage.
ALL current population of the clans are DNA relatives of the blood named. As failed trueborns are put into their population, they have children by those couplings. So that doesn't work. There are plenty of trueborns that had children on their own, and were not considered to be allowed into consideration for becoming a blood named.
The IS wasn't one nation. Not sure why this doesn't get thru. Maybe this might simplify this. Every recon mission is a spying mission. Some are far more deeper then others. So house units are spies as well for some missions. And with this, other houses will prevent you from doing anything, as they want their say. Yet that means another war would break out, as the houses would not let another house gain that information or materials. Status quo mean anything?
So now you say that the IS did not know if the clans would use nukes, so it is ok to use some to see if they would retaliate? The concept of not even trying to find out never enters the mind. And the first use of a nuclear strike would have them come in with more space forces and destroy you ability to do anything. Most worlds did not know they were being invaded until the batchall came in. What is your chance of launching nukes if the enemy just opened fire as soon as they were in range, with the ability to find your launch sites?
Back to the face issue again. The DC would never have stopped the 1st succession war according to your view.
Now the fact that the game is based on, but not strictly following the Bushido code still alludes you. The concept of based on a true story does NOT mean it is all pure fact.
The enemy using nukes would cause the clans to demand to get involved. The fact that the Saber Cat as well as the ilkhan was not challenged for their actions is odd. But then that is how things change depending on who looks at it. For some, the response was correct as the locals did not understand that trueborns are NOT to be ignored.
I don't like the fact that the bombardment went on, but I am not going to say it was the end all.
But seeing the cry for nukes in every situation under the sun, does explain why you believe you can defend everything from one location.
Oh yeah. The ams systems as well as fighters would make short work of your nukes heading towards the ships, if the ECM doesn't stop them.
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Wick
02/08/21 10:06 PM
173.247.25.195
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3048 Nov 21st – Clans vote to initiate Operation Revival
Thus 4 months to prepare for the IS invasion – realistic? Not very.
Many Clans were itching to invade by the time the Dragoon Compromise was settled in 3000. (See Ice Hellion history for a prominent example.) Wolf's Dragoons bought time, but everyone knew it only needed a spark to happen. Outbound Light was that spark. Just because you don't know your Clan history doesn't make it unrealistic. They had 50+ years to prepare after all. (And over 200 if Alexandr's words are taken as literally as the Crusaders do.)
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3049 March – Clans initiate exodus to the IS
Thus 6 months travel time that included the conquest of the 2 planetary groups - so where is the time to convert them into a logistics base? Especially when the chaineline isles are so close to the IS thus invaded and captured close to Aug 3049?
3049 Aug – Clans arrive within the Periphery initiating invasion
You forgot one date: Jan 3050 - Clans invade Inner Sphere proper.
So where is the time to convert them to logistics bases? Between August and December 3049 obviously. I really don't know how to spell this out any clearer. They're moving clusters worth of troops and materials forward. Are they just going to have planets available and instead just store all these things on dropships indefinitely? How are you going to invade when your jumpships and dropships are already full with excess mechs, ammo, lower-caste members, etc? Wouldn't it be logical to drop these off at a safe base behind the front-lines so you can free up the ships for military duty? If not, you need more ships just for storage and that's not a very Clan-like approach to the invasion. Stop complaining that the story as written is illogical and then argue yourself into a corner that makes less sense.
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Map attached – closest Transfer Station J239H2 is behind the Chainelane Isles – would it not be more efficient to put it in front? – so how can this be considered close? Also where exactly is the Khwarazm empire as no one has placed it on a map to date?
Close is a relative term here. Its still several jumps from Lyran space, but a good deal less than the distance between then Pentagon Worlds and Kerensky Cluster.
Presumably they took the most appropriate worlds. That part of space is known for having very few habitable worlds as they were never greatly colonized even during the Star League days. The Clans would probably desire a planet with a short transit time to jump points, with a large stable star to recharge quickly and safely, on a convenient jump route to other safe, fast-charging stars, and possibly with other desirable features such as freshwater basins, flat plains for landing fields, plus weather and native life that isn't problematic. J239H2 may have been the most desirable the Falcons could find in the few months they had to scout the area.
The Clans knew a lot more about the Inner Sphere worlds, either from Star League records or Outbound Light datastores, and I suspect they always planned to set up more efficient supply bases after the first wave or two. There's a good chance there were more staging areas that were abandoned by 3051, some of which that may have been closer and were never mapped.
Khwarazm Empire has never been put on a map. Since it was conquered by the Falcons its probably near the Chainlaine Isles, though more coreward.
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Half a dozen nuclear missiles – and a pile of slag.
But the Combine couldn't do that in 3028 and get away with it. Nuking a mercenary group because you wanted their station would undoubtedly bring harsh penalties from the Mercenary Review Board. The Combine would soon find it very hard to hire any other mercenary group. Its one thing to have disdain for mercenaries. Its quite another to blatantly destroy them. Could maybe get away with destroying a company-sized unit. Five and half elite regiments worth is going to be noticed.
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They betrayed the IS – what level of response would the IS go to if they believed the Dragoons were a threat?
The Combine did not know this in 3028. They can't react to what they don't yet know.
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With what forces are you going to defend this fleet?
If a convoy fleet was loaded with mechs, fighters, and obviously equipped with several dropships as a matter of necessity, the defender should rightly declare all of it to thwart any attempt by an enemy to take it by force. Losing such a convoy would be a disaster to their invasion plans. If the attacker can't muster the force to take it, then they shouldn't bother making the challenge. The Clans don't just bid for anything they want, they need to show up with the intent and confidence to take it. The attacking force can always be bid down, but you can't easily bid up with forces you don't have on hand. In essence, if the attacker shows up, declares his intent but can't make the Cutdown, then they've made a serious miscalculation and must either fight to the death in a hopeless battle or beg for surkai. Namely, having eyes bigger than your stomach is a recipe for dishonor amongst the Clans. So if the convoy carries about a cluster's worth of forces, you best show up with about a cluster's worth of your own. At least a few Trinaries if you feel your Warriors and equipment is better than theirs.
On the other hand, if they came upon the convoy and asked for something smaller that the defender could probably do with out, say "half the allotment of ER Medium Lasers aboard", then the defender can't rightly bid his entire force over a such a small prize and would have to offer a defensive force complimentary with the value, one which the attacking force could potentially defeat. To overbid would mean the defender has either placed an unusual amount of value on the prize (which in the case of something like exclusive genetic legacies could be completely understood) or has bid dishonorably. This is why the attacker must state the intent of his goal first. Even if the defender has more forces, he might not be able to use them without a loss of honor.
Bidding is a bit of gamesmanship between the parties, to try to leverage one's own honor and your opponents honor against the value of the target.
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Wouldn’t this explain why there were no combat within the Deep Periphery between Clans for another Clans Logistical Fleets or Individual ships?
I think the better answer is that no Clan wanted to divert forces from the Invasion front-line. Better to fight over things there, where it might just cost you just one jump, a single dropship, and a trinary or less of equipment to get something you want. But to move a convoy's worth of attackers into the Periphery to take another Clan's convoy just isn't focusing on the primary goal. You don't fight a war of conquering by moving your soldiers away from the front-line.
Quite likely a few opportunistic fights occurred as two ships ended up in the same system together but clearly there weren't any big battles and the outcomes seem to be have been too inconsequential to mention in source books or fiction.
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They knew it in the story as they answered why only the corridor was the focus instead of hitting the entire IS.
I suspect that once a Clan had reached Terra and been named ilClan, that all the other Clans could come to the Inner Sphere and would become occupying forces for the remainder.
Its no secret that the SLDF was 20 armies strong, and the Clans were originally numbered 20 as well. Perhaps the original goal was that upon return to the Inner Sphere each Clan would fill the role of one of the SLDF Armies. One for the Hegemony (the ilClan), three in each of the five member houses, and one each for the four territorial states (though with the RWR destroyed, one Clan would have required a new position.)
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Guess the sentence: It is very much stated the clans destroyed jumpships that were in system and were about to leave. didn't register before the response. The houses would lose any jumpships spotted before they could get out.
I don't think the Clans destroyed as many as you think they did. I'm sure they destroyed a few that tried to escape, but jumpships can't outrun warships and dropships nor can they fight their way out. The Clans probably just approached most Sphereoid jumpships with their warships or dropships with guns ready and made threatening comments which cowed the majority into submission. Most jumpships were simply boarded and taken over by the Clans for their own use. The Houses would use the same tactic during all of their wars, though they'd often let the merchant vessels go (perhaps after purloining them of any military hardware) and only keep the enemy's military craft. I think I read somewhere that merchant-owned jumpships captured during the invasion were absorbed into the merchant caste of that Clan. They'd perform all the same duties they used to perform, except they didn't have the freedom to go anywhere they wanted anymore. (Excepting any that were freed from Smoke Jaguar dominance during Operation Bulldog.)
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ALL current population of the clans are DNA relatives of the blood named.
This is not true. Freeborns are allowed to have children and are not sterilized except as punishment for crimes. Jaime Wolf, a freeborn, had children of his own, thus proving this fact. The Clans even encourage the lower castes to have children so as to build their industrial base as freeborns vastly outnumber trueborns. (Though children are often taken to a community group home rather than raised by parents.)
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The DC did not know if the clans had vast reserves either
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Can I laugh now? Optical intelligence ie a camera with a very good lens similar to a telescope
Really? Really!? A camera with telescopic lens to detect enemy strength from hundreds of light years away? Laugh all you want buddy. This is a hilariously silly answer.
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Requiem
02/09/21 01:11 AM
1.158.229.22
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The highlander book that had them pose as Jaguars and hit the Nova Cats shows they did indeed have defenders along the route to deal with such a threat.
And if we keep reading we see mystic dreams about the invasion …. Which also proves the point that YES IS forces can attack clan forces in the deep periphery!
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The clans knowingly violated the rules of law?
The clans would have been provided by the Dragoons with information as to IS culture and laws
One such law involves the prohibition on attacking Jumpships
And yet they went ahead and broke the IS law
When you are within a foreign country you must obey their laws – trying to transcribe your own laws over to another country will just get you locked up – cultural sensitivity!
They were in the IS – they broke the law!
Attempting to force a alien culture onto the IS will just create riots!
Living on the border you are prepared for the fact that your world would switch now and again – as evidenced by the paper currency of one world where one side was DC and the other LC - no one could be prepared to accept the idiocy of Clandom.
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the houses didn't have this to go by.
This is why you have a spy network!
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I have yet to hear of any sort of telescope that can count the number of ships in a system even 30 light years away.
Taking things out of context again? from the nadir to the zenith jump point – very easily.
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Even the U.S sells planes that are stripped of high tech.
Consider the F-35
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The IS DID make dropships with capital weapons. They were missile launchers,
Naval Lasers?
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Launching nukes would have cause the IS to collapse even faster
Disagree – consider the limited number of forces the clans arrived with as well as the limited number of ships
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There are plenty of trueborns that had children on their own, and were not considered to be allowed into consideration for becoming a blood named.
Yes they are civilians – not warriors
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Status quo mean anything?
Cold war mean anything? How about the war between Comstar and the FC?
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So now you say that the IS did not know if the clans would use nukes
Comprehension reading? ….. what would the clans do once the DC kills of their warship is an unknown – Warden Vs Crusader Politics is the only best guess anyone can make.
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The DC would never have stopped the 1st succession war according to your view.
Opinion only.
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Bushido code still alludes you.
Which book are you using? Kiyoshi Hiraizumi’s Bushido no Fukkatsu or Yutaka Hirose’s Gunjin Dotoku Ron or Hagakure’s maxims and anecdotes or Yoshida Shoin or Yamaga Soko?
Suggest reading Hakkenden first.
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The enemy using nukes would cause the clans to demand to get involved.
As stated previously disagree - wardens would demand a sit down with the IS or using ComStar as an intermediary.
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The ams systems as well as fighters would make short work of your nukes heading towards the ships, if the ECM doesn't stop them.
Disagree again – proximity is all that is required – plus most warships are not equipped with many fighters.
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They had 50+ years to prepare
Can we say the same thing for the UDSA in joining WW1 and WW2 – late to the party in both and how prepared were they in both?
Time does not equate to preparedness – Clan society is about efficiency of resources it is not about stockpiling vast amounts of logistics for a possible war in the near future!
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time to convert them to logistics bases
Ammo dump maybe, anything serious not a hope.
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Close is a relative term here.
So what is the minimum time to resupply given the logistic’s base location is increasing as the front lines are being constantly moved forward?
Sorry but unless you are going to move the supply base in line with the front line the reaction time is increasing manking it more and more inefficient as the war goes on!
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But the Combine couldn't do that in 3028 and get away with it.
When did the forums name change? If we are discussing Clans doesn’t this automatically bring it forward to 3050 –unless specifically quoting from the past? …. So this nuking is in regards to when Wolf called the leaders of the IS to Outreach. And when he came clean about their origins.
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If a convoy fleet was loaded with mechs, fighters, and obviously equipped with several dropships as a matter of necessity, the defender should rightly declare all of it to thwart any attempt by an enemy to take it ….
How many warriors are on board and how many would bluff in the hope of winning?
Then how many would call your bluff ?
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But to move a convoy's worth of attackers into the Periphery to take another Clan's convoy just isn't focusing on the primary goal.
One to three warships ???? and isn’t the goal to win at all costs? Thus yes hobbling your enemy is an acceptable means of winning.
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jumpships can't outrun warships and dropships
How long to hot jump?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/21 03:43 AM
66.74.60.165
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The highlanders were doing the periphery assault as part of Bulldog. This is AFTER Trent gave them the coordinates to go to. This was not a blind jump into the unknown.
There is a statement in one of the books that the combat fleet got to the IS and the warriors were not patient for the labor caste to build the stations needed for supplies, so they had their free for all in the periphery to sate them. And for the idea that the clans could only build a single station at a time shows a complete lack of what they can do.
The SLDF armies were much larger then the clans armies. Granted, with their egos, they may well have thought they could control the IS with the smaller numbers they had.
With this, the Dragoons were 5 regiment strong mech force. What does that tell you about the machine reserves the clans have?
Hey Gangis Khan. You are about to raid a village where swords are not allowed. Do you think that would stop Gangis from attacking the town with swords? Do you really think the clans cared about what the freeborn IS barbarians were or weren't doing? The clans had jumpships and used them in a fighting stance. They were not about to give that up because the opponent doesn't use them. And even with this, several invasions in the IS by IS forces destroyed jumpships. So your defense is poor at best. For the clans, you fight their way or die.
Another thing you seem to miss is the laws change according to who runs the world. The conquerors say you eat fish, then you eat fish. You resist the best you can, but they make the laws.
What good does a spy network do when the can't get the intel to begin with, and IF they get lucky enough to get some, can't communicate it back to HQ? Oh yeah. The telepaths at HQ can read their minds light years away from them. Maybe the Quigi board was a black box and told them what was up.
Taking things out of context again? from the nadir to the zenith jump point – very easily.
Gotta love the this one. From the jump points you can see 30 plus light years away, telling you what is there right this second. But that doesn't tell you have many forces are 60 or 400 light years away. So what? You have subspace telescopes like Star Trek that can see into the middle of another star empire? I don't remember seeing that option, ever.
The version of the F-35 the U.S sells is not the topped out wizardry that U.S pilots use. And those very planes are limited on who can buy them on top of that.
The IS did have Capital Missile ships. That is an anti warship dropship. Changing the parameters to now say lasers is not the original complaint. I think it is bs that the didn't allow the IS to build energy based anti warships dropships, but oh well. It would have shut down the clans invasion much sooner, destroying their plans for the future. You know, where they make more money by keeping the game going?
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ghostrider
02/09/21 04:17 AM
66.74.60.165
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Oh yeah. The IS had books saying exactly what forces and how many the clans had, so they could fight far differently then they did. Maybe the leaders and their advisors just couldn't read, or got the books after the clans invaded, due to the post office having a delay.
From the sounds of it, you have not played any games that you did not know the exact forces you faced before beginning. And you always had more forces then you needed. If you hadn't, then the repeat of sending everything at once because they only had this many would not be done.
Again, I will ask. How did the IS know the clans only had x amount of ships. They could well have had double or triple that amount and just had them hang back. Oh yeah. The books tells you exactly what they had, so the house leaders knew that in an instant.
Diana was not the only person born of two trueborns. There were plenty of them in the clan worlds. Diana was being trained before Aidan did what he did. So the statement, Yes they are civilians – not warriors, is false. Diana was not the first.
How many nukes were sent out during the Shadow war? Or the 4th war. Or 3039. Even the Skye rebellion? So yeah. Cold war does fit. You did something stupid and the enemy would retaliate. But on earth you can get to the enemy in a few days with old midevil ships, to a few hours with todays tech. It is a far cry from light years, or even getting to the edge of the solar system.
It is very clear what would happen if the DC killed a Jaguar warship. It would bloody the Jaguars noses to the other clans, and cause them to drop any sort of Batchall or honor combat. Especially if they were nukes. You would see the Amaris war all over again in the DC. Other clans would get involved as it would be seen that the DC would never allow the destruction to be limited. It would be genocide of the DC. Might take a few months to get there, but it would happen.
Opinion? You have said the DC would retaliate against any sort of face loss, which mean if they get their heads handed to them, they have to go back to remove that stain. Or the entire force would have to die, as retreat would never be an option. Losing a battle is losing your honor. So no. The DC would never stop the 1st war if the maintained that strict concept of bushido.
The wardens would not try to negotiate a peace treaty. Ulric might, but the rest of them would demand full destruction of the Dezgra Amaris soldiers. They would remove the Jaguars from the invasion, but would open up the bid to more forces to remove the stain on the IS that the users of nukes would bring.
Again. The game does not have nuke being able to wipe out a system with a single nuke. And no matter what you say, nuclear missiles alone would be shot down. Not many fighters on a warship, but a warship is not alone. You might be able to do it once with the initial sneak attack, but they will adapt to make sure you can't do it again. And it would have to be manned in order to get past the ECM the ships would have. Remote guidence would not work.
The U.S getting involved in the WWs was more forced on the U.S. We tried to remain out of it, while supporting the Allies side of it. The arrogance and ignorance of the leaders in the Hawian islands is why the Japanese strike worked so well. Had the U.S really wanted in, they would have been more prepared. We thought the ocean protected us from it. We were wrong.
Wait. The person that thinks you can move forces across several jumps at a moments notice is saying it takes time for things to be moved? What happened? I doubt you have come to the realization that a single base can not be used to defend worlds a jump or more apart.
Sure. Launch a nuke against the FC world of Outreach. Even the FWL and CC would respond to that. They want the Dragoons to work for them, even with the admission. Your strike would remove any chance of them gaining access to any tech or units.
Lost the concept of the clans again? You do not bid your entire force unless you have to. A single warrior can be used to defend a fleet of supplies. The only thing is if the attacker decides to use a very small amount. It would more likely be one on one, or maybe up the 3 on the defender. The concept of wasting your forces is changed with the way the clans do things.
The charge of the jump drives is the only thing that might save a jumpship. And to begin with, the jumpship might not be worried, as the IS doesn't outright destroy them normally. But with a hot jump, do you just detach the sails? Continue to bring it in? Or hope the enemy can't close the distance quick enough to stop you? For the most part, if you don't have a charge, the jumpship is a goner.
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Requiem
02/09/21 05:28 AM
1.158.229.22
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How did the IS know the clans only had x amount of ships.
Intelligence gathering over the first couple of waves – human extraction – computer core extraction – taking a photographs of the ships at the jump points - over a period of time all intelligence can be evaluated to create an overall picture of the situation.
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Diana Pryde
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Diana_Pryde
volunteered to become a MechWarrior - passed her training – (ie warrior not civilian)
Basing on her argument of the fact that she was the freeborn child of two trueborns, and ergo not genetically weaker than trueborns, she petitioned the Khan (Marthe Pryde) for the right to compete for a Bloodname. …..
How many nukes were sent out during the Jihad and what types?
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It is very clear what would happen if the DC killed a Jaguar warship.
Sorry but this is a personal supposition, not fact. Others can have different suppositions.
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which mean if they get their heads handed to them, they have to go back to remove that stain.
This is incorrect once more. If defeated by a worthy warrior there is no loss of hour.
Plus to commit ritual suicide this requires the approval of their lord.
Plus if there was a loss on the battlefield, and a loss of honour, the highest officer on the battlefield would be deemed culpable (take responsibility) and they alone would request suicide.
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The wardens would not try to negotiate a peace treaty. Ulric might, but the rest of them would demand full destruction of the Dezgra Amaris soldiers.
Again a personal assumption.
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The game does not have nuke being able to wipe out a system with a single nuke.
However if you could find a means of causing the sun to go super-nova …. No more system!
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nuclear missiles alone would be shot down.
A warhead on an aerospace missile is way smaller than a fighter so good luck with that! And then there is the issue of how many warships have rear facing weapons to guard their engines?
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but they will adapt to make sure you can't do it again.
How did that work out with Kamikaze? – massive refit of the entire weapon system per ship required to just get close – problem it there is always a blind spot .
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The arrogance and ignorance of the leaders in the Hawian islands is why the Japanese strike worked so well.
Sorry but this is not true! Husband E. Kimmel was betrayed by Washington – they never allowed him access to Magic – the entire intelligence system was a bureaucratic mess that did not allow for individuals to go back and re-evaluate the information obtained - also rather than telephoning him of an immediate attack Harold Rainsford Stark (aka Betty)to which his assistant believed as they were exiting the room belived he was about to make the call hung up and for some very strange reason decided to sent a telegram which was never marked as urgent – and there was atmospheric problems - thus he received it after the raid.
O n May 25, 1999, the United States Senate, by a vote of 52–47, passed a non-binding resolution to exonerate Kimmel and Short
The Senate enquiry in 2000 issued a lengthy exoneration of Kimmel's conduct.
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Launch a nuke against the FC world of Outreach. Even the FWL and CC would respond to that.
Must be considered at the period in which the Lords were requested to visit Outreach when breaking the news as to their perfidy.
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if you don't have a charge, the jumpship is a goner.
Hot loading can take a few hours - It is a well-known (but rarely executed) maneuver, for example, to jump from one of a star system's standard jump points to the other.
On 10 July 3058 the Liu, since acquired by Warrior House Hiritsu, came under attack in the Sakhalin system and made an emergency jump to the Kaifeng zenith jump point without furling its jump sail. It arrived with visible battle damage and a shredded jump sail, and without its DropShips.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/21 01:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Checking to see what ships were seen is NOT knowing how many ships they had. The IS has been ones to shift troops from elsewhere, but there are units that never saw the borders on one side of their realms. The March Militias being a good one to start with. Those on the DC side, particularly near the OA, were not used on the CC border. Other then ages of collecting intel, the CC may never have been aware of that, or in direct contact with the DC and exchanging such knowledge.
As for the books, we know what was in the IS was NOT all they had.
But then protecting your other assets while in a fight hasn't been a strong point in your posts.
Many people volunteered to become warriors. Many made it, as much as the Falcons allowed 'freeborns' into the mix. And for them, the parents don't matter about being free born, anything outside of the Ironwomb was freeborn. If not for Aidans actions, she would never have been allowed to compete for a blood name. The Falcons broke their own tradition for that reason.
The worthy opponent is the key here. The FS was a joke to the DC during the 1st war. It was only slightly better then the LC. It had the forces on paper, but not the skills to back it up. The inroads made during the first few months showed this. They were bandit rabble to the DC. And yet, did not break.
Yeah. Good way to make sure the game never has a future. Wipe out stars. That destroys any chance of the system being useful to anyone. And that would cause all others to focus on killing those that did so. Your threat would have to be taken out.
And what do you know, LRMS are smaller then nukes are. And yet AMS take them down. Something the game doesn't do, but would be able to in real life is, I don't know, firing up the engines to destroy things in it's wake. Vaporizing it instantaneously. And again. The warship would not be alone. ECM does mess with guidance systems as well. Moving the warship, such as any direction and moving would do a lot. And any sort of signal would be cut off at a point, so remote detonation wouldn't work.
As for rear firing weapons, I don't know of a single warship that doesn't have rear firing weapons. In fact to bombard a world, you have to have them there.
It's not true that the leaders were arrogant that the fleet in Pearl Harbor would deter the Japanese from making a strike? It was not ignorant in the fact that this same thought caused those same leaders to ignore evidence as it came in? Guess that looking glass you use is really warped.
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Requiem
02/09/21 04:47 PM
1.158.229.22
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Checking to see what ships were seen is NOT knowing how many ships they had.
If you only see a limited fleet plus you have been informed as to the Clan bidding process then you cam make an assumption that this amount is what was bid for the Invasion – In addition if your spy network takes an individual who confirms this amount / takes a computer core that also confirms this amount then you are in all doubt on the right track.
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… the CC may never have been aware of that, or in direct contact with the DC and exchanging such knowledge.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Concord_of_Kapteyn
13 October 3022 – Concord of Kapteyn …. called for an end to hostilities and mutual support in training and intelligence.
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we know what was in the IS was NOT all they had.
In 3051, during a lull in the Invasion, Jaime Wolf called a conference on Outreach
There he explained everything ….. even the point that the majority of their forces was still in the Clan Home worlds – which begs the point as to why you would waste the 15 years of peace and only kill off one Clan ….. any sane person ould have used this time to amass a force that is the equal of ALL of The Clans thus the IS has the ability to take on and kill off ALL of the Cland in the event the Clans do not stand down post bulldog / serpent …..
Which demonstrates that the story has completely and utterly lost the plot!
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But then protecting your other assets while in a fight hasn't been a strong point in your posts.
Hanse Davion has never been seen as the lamb leaving behind the majority of his forces (92% as per Clan Records) in order to only attack with 8% of his forces as per the Canon writings.
He would do the complete reverse – strike with 92% and hold back 8%.
This is also the same for Takashi Kurita ….
So where is ever shown that any leader must be the lamb and sit back and protect and do nothing in order to win a war?
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The Falcons broke their own tradition for that reason.
More likely Marthe Pryde was feeling guilty for stabbing Aiden in the back ….
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The worthy opponent is the key here.
Takashi Kurita considered Hanse Davion a very worthy enemy for he realized that if he did not go for the kill on the first move Hanse would … he was deeply respected …. His loss was felt by Takashi deeply.
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Yeah. Good way to make sure the game never has a future.
Cannon Fact ….. how many worlds were killed off by the TPTB during the Jihad? …. How many were killed off just to kill the Master?
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AMS
Where is it written that an AMS can be situated upon a warship? Also what is the range of an AMS compared to a nuclear detonation? Remember even a close detonation will kill off a warship.
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ECM does mess with guidance systems as well.
And if it is just point and shoot with no guidance system or the DC pilot decides to Kamikaze?
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remote detonation wouldn't work.
Godzilla – analog detonation.
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rear firing weapons
To fight off aerospace fighters?
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Pearl Harbor - Guess that looking glass you use is really warped.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-almost-everyone-failed-prepare-pearl-harbor-1-180961144/
There are many books on the subject as well as very good documentaries …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/09/21 07:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stop mixing the books saying exactly what they had and what the combatants knew. The IS had NO clue on what the clans had in their fleets. By suggesting that the DC knew what the clans bid says they did know how many they had. Battles do not have every single force in their possession show up for a single battle. There should always be a reserve if possible, and the attacker is more likely to have and hide that. The defender tends to be stuck with everything they haveon hand.
Oh yeah. When did the IS have spies in clan space? When did they confirm that only so many warships were in the IS at the time of Turtle Bay? Or for any time even after they hit Huntress? The book says this, but they did not have the book to rely upon.
And before the 4th war and the treaty? Did the CC know of every last unit the FS/FC had? Not likely.
Let's see. A limited strike on the worst of the clans that could be done within a decade, and would not be seen as an attack against all the clans verse a full scale war against all of them, and would cause the other clans to respond, as they WOULD NOT wait until the invading clans couldn't stop them before reaching the home worlds. Gee. That is the smartest way to go about this? Oh yeah. Destroy all your forces hoping you could eliminate the clans. And how many units would happen to go along with this from the FLW and CC? Yeah. open up to being hit by them...
Where did you come up with the FS hitting the CC with that many forces? 30 regiments out of 100+ available to him. And how many never left the worlds they were protecting before the war? More then 50% of the AFFS was left to defend their worlds. If not for the LC agreeing to hit the DC, there would have been even less offensive troops in the CC.
I would also suggest you reread how the states were before the 4th war. Maybe 10 regiments at a time was sent in to attack a neighbor. If not for the false intel the CC got, the war would never have been that large in scope.
Making me wonder if you are even reading the same game material as the rest of us.
Hanse Davion has never been seen as the lamb leaving behind the majority of his forces (92% as per Clan Records) in order to only attack with 8% of his forces as per the Canon writings.
Canon writing being the ONLY factual writing there is, and you suggest he was never seen attacking with only 8% of his forces? He did that constantly before the 4th war.
Timeline is the key to the DC not stopping the 1st war. Takahashi and Hanse were not born at that time. When the SLDF failed, the DC considered both the FS and LC as inferior. For them to hold back, much less counter attack them was seen as losing face. The DCMS could not protect their own during the little counter invasion from the FS, and really didn't do much against the LC. Get your facts straight about the time frame. With siding with the RWR the DC actively looks like the thought the SLDF was beneath them as well.
And yet the game still continued. So the worlds destroyed by the stupid Jihad crap, and most agree it was stupid, the game didn't end at that point. Now having the ability to destroy entire systems, not just a world, would have finally got it down to no habitable systems and any that were, no starts to use the jump sails on, meaning almost all jumps would be hot loads. And worse, if the worlds with the jump ship makers were the ones hit first, the idea of using jumpships goes down in history of what was.
The Avalon warship has AMS on it. Several SLDF warships had the Barracuda missile launchers on the rear, which were anti fighter weapons. The Fox had ams and pulse lasers on the rear. Look up more in the books. As the rear areas is where fighters tend to focus on as well as bridges, so yeah, they do have anti fighter weapons there.
Now firing a bomb means that the target can not move, otherwise you miss. And the game does NOT have a nuke take out a raduis of 30,000 km. Which makes you wonder how the SDS worked so well.
Oh yeah. Nukes were not as powerful as other missiles in the game, so that whole line of thought it history.
Reread the posts before responding. Not being prepared is very much the say thing as being ignorant. You said they were not ignorant or arrogant in believing the Japanese would not attack. So why would they be prepared if them were one or both of those?
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Cray
02/09/21 09:02 PM
71.47.151.234
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Where is it written that an AMS can be situated upon a warship?
Requiem, Tech Manual and Strategic Operations clearly list AMS as fitting on WarShips. Just check the equipment tables.
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Also what is the range of an AMS compared to a nuclear detonation? Remember even a close detonation will kill off a warship.
Per the point defense rules in Strategic Operations, the range of AMS's is "point defense," which means they can engage any missile: capital, sub-capital, standard, and hard point-mounted, regardless of the warhead.
A check on the nuclear weapon rules (Interstellar Operations, Liberation of Terra, etc.) would show that, like in reality, nuclear weapons are neutered in space because they don't have an atmosphere to help transmit their blast wave. They're radiation flash bulbs that only bother WarShips if they detonate very close to the hulls or after impact, hence giving AMSs the normal chance to defeat their delivery vehicle (capital missiles or hard point-mounted missiles) are utterly vulnerable to AMSs.
AMSs are workhorses of defeating missiles for WarShips and other aerospace units. Their ability to engage multiple threats per turn and defend other units puts them head and shoulders above any other point defense weapon in BattleTech.
This thread has reached a practical end, so I'm locking it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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