Requiem
07/05/18 10:04 PM
58.175.193.140
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In re-creating the Inner Sphere Navies – Warships – the majority of the Great houses went straight for the Battleship / cruiser etc however it is quite noticeable that only the Free Worlds League contemplated the air-crat carrier.
In space protecting your commerce space traffic and your planets …. Your first line of defence would come back to that of the WWII pacific … a Navy War … a war of aerospace fighters armed with Capital Missiles … a war of introducing the big wing again against the Clan warships – launched from their Carrier.
Remember what Rommel said about D-day and keeping them on the beach …. In this case keeping them in space, denying them access to the planet (ground forces)
Can we say Oops again
Strategically and tactically it makes sense that there should have been Aircraft carriers produced by all the great houses to supplement their contingent of Vengeance Class Dropships ….
This gives them a strategic advantage against the clans – as they would have more – thus once you have taken out their warships and captured their commercial Jump-Ships they are now marooned – and now at the mercy of the IS
Is this how the IS should have dealt this a Clan Invasion once they have come online?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/06/18 12:44 AM
66.74.61.223
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As was said a while back, and I will repeat it.
If the game went like it should, there would be no game, as nothing would survive long on the surface, if it made it that far. The Ooops was put in there for the express purpose of having a game to play. Looks like a lot of the writing slants towards that.
The implication that it costs so much to keep militias and such, yet the world now has more units costing more then mechs in the field then more then a few planets combine shows the lie in that.
The c-bill in 3025 was supposed to be about 5 dollars. Granted, that was in 1980 or so.
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Requiem
07/06/18 01:36 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: If the game went like it should, there would be no game, as nothing would survive long on the surface, if it made it that far.
1. As the dropships make their way onto the surface are they not protected by a screen of their own aerospace fighters – whose aim it is to protect them from such a situation;
2. Air superiority over a battlefield would be needed to be fought over whist at the same time they are attacking ground targets – refer again WWII air campaign in Europe (post D-day would help);
3. Anti-Air-batteries – The Rifleman – I thought this was one of the main reasons the created this mech.
4. So yes we still have a game to play – a more inclusive game and not one that just looks at ‘Mechs, Armour, Infantry, Power Armour, VTOL etc – so wouldn’t a change in some of the rules make it just that more enjoyable by making it easier to use aerospace on the battlefield?
Costings ….
The Economy is in a bull cycle … great for everyone with an upswing in the economy …. More jobs … higher liveable wages etc a higher prosperity for all …. Whist at the same time governments are receiving more in taxation …. Thus more money is being spent upon defence contractors …. More units … people are feeling safe as their government is protecting them from the Clan hoard.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/06/18 12:38 PM
66.74.61.223
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Orbital batteries and patrolling warships and combat dropships would or should make short work of any invasion. Also, planets would have a hell of alot more fighters in defense then an attacker could bring.
Jumpships left unguarded would be targets in a game run as it should.
The implication in another thread suggest jumpships aren't that rare, as you can send fleets into the periphery. So that would make them targets for all. The lack of them means no one can properly supply their worlds, is why they are banned from strikes.
Now. Ground batteries. These would be assisting any ships that they could, as well as destroying those in orbit readying for drops. Then as was said in a thread a while back, any thing hitting the ground would be pounded by any artillery in range, with firing the shots as the mechs were coming down, so the shells hit when they did.
It is very probable, dropping mechs would be done as the space battle rages, so atmospheric aircraft would be sighting for the artillery and runnin strafe/bombing them as well.
And with any units in the area, would be sent out to deal with what is left of an invader, which by this time, wouldn't be much more then a few scrap parts that still could move.
All in a properly run game.
And this is not even dealing with reinforcements jumping in, once the fleet pops into a system. Done correctly, there would be response forces on board ships ready to counter any invasion.
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Requiem
07/06/18 06:06 PM
58.175.193.140
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Quote: Orbital batteries and patrolling warships and combat drop-ships would or should make short work of any invasion.
What about the retaking of Terra during the Jihad Period?
What about using your intelligence units to identify a world (targets of opportunity) that does not have patrolling warships and combat drop-ships – why go for the worst case scenario?
Why say that due to lack of numbers you cannot invade the periphery? This is a calculated risk to achieve a greater goal …. It also limits the game to becoming boring and predictable …. The same thing over and over … it adds a new dimension to the game …. It could also give the IS a competitive advantage when fighting the Clans …. Why are you so against it, just because Canon says it never happened? … why not give it a go, put together an expedition group and get your game-master design a game for you, who knows you might like being a pirate / member of Fenrir within the deep periphery … don’t knock it until you have tried it!
What if Clans attack Jump-Ships what are you going to do then …. They didn’t sign the accords stating all Jump-ships were off limits, so what are you going to do then? Would you not want a fighter screen to protect your Jump-ships then?
Ground Batteries? How many world had Batteries that could hit orbital targets? Just one – Terra – not even the Clans had these or did they?
As for Drop-ship landing Zones – they are fair game for an artillery strike – a couple of Long Tom Artillery pieces carefully hidden away ….. and yes I agree aerospace fighters would be used as spotters whilst attacking ‘Mech atmospheric drops / conducting bombing runs …. This is their purpose on the battlefield is it not?
Again …. pick your target as per your units TOE …. If you are going for a major target ensure you plan your attack and have enough forces to deal with all eventualities …. This is one of the major aspects of Battletech you have to learn.
Get Intelligence on defending forces – their TOE and where they are situated – work out a plan of attack get supporting units if you need them – work out in advance how you are going to win given the enemies TOE – then run the game and make changes as and when you need to – remember no plan survives contact with the enemy!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/07/18 12:27 AM
66.74.61.223
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Outside of the alt history, which comes about because of holes in the canon, having the resources to pull a fighter regiment out of you behind, when you have a single ship that isn't a fighter carrier is not going to happen.
Scouting the periphery is a different story. Sending in a massive fleet with no destination is beyond wrong. All those resources spent in hopes you might find the enemy and catch them off guard.
Misjumps. Fuel wated. Food and water wasted. On the odd chance something like a comet or asteroid shoots into the jump point could well take out a command ship.
Arguing the game has holes in it, then suggest that they do something that isn't written as being capable of, seems to the theme in all the alt histories. Saying the game is screwed up, then saying they should have done this or that, is all supposition. It is assumed they have the forces to do things with.
Yes, the writers hobbled the IS forces. Hard to make a decent story if you have 10 to 1 against an enemy and they can't fight back.
The fact the production of units, verse what is destroyed is out of whack. Same as the economy.
As the video games are supposed to be based on canon, playing the one where you invade the Jaguars world, they use capital weapons against the drop ships bringing in troops.
As said in another thread. Try using limited forces before saying you should have this. For the invasion, they damn sure better have them, but a simple merc, or even a small unit may not have any fighters at all. Use an excalibur by itself.
That's right. Everyone tailors their forces with a bv match.
The supposition that your scout find and can relay information on enemy locations is not likely. It is very likely your scouts go missing without any information sent out.
And yet the game has not really dealt with ICBMs and such. They should be in the game. Obliterate a DZ without ever seeing the enemy. Intel works both ways.
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ghostrider
07/07/18 02:33 AM
66.74.61.223
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The argument is that the writers left gaping holes in the storyline.
The alt being used to show this, is not the same one as the canon version.
They are two separate ideas.
You can not show how to do it, without the actual numbers the writers had when doing it.
Without this, all speculations is just that. Speculations. Just use this or that. There is no unlimited numbers of units, how many can be made, nor the dropships and jumpships to just move a dozen RCTs around on a moments notice.
The FS almost destroyed their economy hitting the CC. Joining with the LC would give them access to more things, but have to cover even more ground.
To move an RCT, you need at least 3 overlords, around a dozen Triumphs, as well as more infantry carriers. So using an invader, you need like 7 or more. That is using the overlords, not unions or leopards. This is not including fighters beyond what the normal dropships carry.
Building things takes time. They don't just pop out units, especially dropships and jumpships on a whim. The monolith takes 2 years for each one, according to the books. Only the FS produces them before the 4th war.
Even the smallest dropship takes a while to build.
Blackwell makes 24 of the Marauder 2's in a year. As stated, they do not do them on a factory line. They build 6 every three months. Some canon factories do have automated systems. The idea that the FS made 8 RCT's before the 4th war was rediculous. Close to 1000 mechs in the time before the wedding, as the FC regiments were sent out. The numbers shown in other books suggests maybe 2000 or so mechs are made a year, and most are barely covering losses. Unless there is a cache they found, this does not work.
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Requiem
07/07/18 04:09 AM
58.175.193.140
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Let us consider the Federated Commonwealth
1. They have Jump-ships available;
2. They have Vengeance Class Drop-ships available;
3. They have aerospace fighters and pilots available;
4. They have been hunting pirates for (?) years – they have maps of the periphery (courtesy of these pirates) – they have pirates as prisoners (who would make excellent guides);
5. We Know the Clans must have advance re-supply dumps within the periphery / deep periphery to maintain their invasion;
6. We know that to deny the Clans their logistical support will slow them down / halt their invasion until fresh supplies can be sourced;
7. We know that if these supplies are provided to IS units we will close the technology gap in the event of a resurgence in military operations;
8. We know the chance of miss-jump within the periphery is the same as a miss-jump occurring within the IS;
9. At this stage we also know …
9.1 Due to the technological gap a frontal assault / defensive campaign is ineffectual at this stage;
9.2 Also advanced strategies are also ineffectual;
10. As a general of the army the following advanced tactics have not been utilized to the fullest …
10.1 Commando raids upon rear echelon bases to conduct raids / capture personnel and equipment / terrorist activities / guerrilla warfare upon the Clans;
10.2 Big Wing aero-space fighter attack groups – to engage warships / Jump-ships – with their removal the military would then be in a position to engage in counter attacking within the Clan’s Rear;
10.3 Introduction of new technology to engage and destroy the clans – eg. anti-elemental rifle / an advanced aerospace capital missile that will be utilized against clan Warships, Jump-ships, and Drop-ships as well as air-to-ground support (anti-mech) / the flack arrow IV missile (used to scramble Clan sensors) / Introduction of IS Omni-Mechs and Omni Fighters;
11. Only just recently have the IS agreed to re-form the Star League and the SLDF with a united strategy to achieve the final victory over the Clans;
So at a stage where the Clans are winning – you don’t have an advantage in space, air or on the ground and all you seem to be doing is loosing large numbers of your troops and falling back – then repeating this over and over again - Question:- at this stage what is your solution to winning the war against the Clans? What do you think the IS should do to win circa 3051 /3052? I have heard you say what I am suggesting is wrong, then what is your solution to winning – surrendering to the clans? As all I hear is the negative points that won’t work – your reconnaissance won’t work; you attack won’t work – then what will work, what is your strategy to winning the war then – the Cannon history? As the idea of having a cat flap in an elephant house makes more sense than the Cannon History when it comes to planning the final victory over the clans.
My Plans are therefore the only logical calculated risks that may achieve victory … whilst conducting normal defensive actions with our existing ‘Mech RCTs …
1. Introduce SOE – Commando units onto all captured worlds and those worlds that appear to be in the invasion corridor – their aim ‘Set the garrison ablaze / capture their techs / poison they water and food / steel their technology / assassinate elementals and Mech-warriors outside their weapons – terrorist activities etc etc – and introduce the anti-elemental sniper rifle;
2. Introduce the big wing - RACTs – together with capital missiles / vengeance carriers – target warships engines and Jump-ship engines – objective slow / halt their advance of the enemy by denying the enemy transport to conduct a further stage in their invasions advance (remember the limited number of Clan Jump-ships therefore this is achievable) ;
3. Conduct reconnaissance missions within the periphery etc – with the aim of finding the Clans advance supply depos / supply jump-ships – engage and capture – then return to the IS with all that can be salvaged - destroy / hide any surplus supplies with the hope that it can be liberated in the future, if it can be done without the Clans fining it before it too can be returned to the IS – Thus giving the IS technological parity and denying the Clans valuable replacement parts;
4. Rebuild units as quickly as possible and get them back into the field – preferably as new anti-clan units that a specifically trained and armed for dealing with the Clans;
If you believe these to be horrible plans to achieve IS victory then as a ‘General’ I wait with anticipation as your view on how victory can be achieved over the Clans. …. What are your manoeuvres covert or otherwise?
As for rebuilding units – the information you supplied is not relevant it is 4SW information – where is the relevant information as to the amount that can be produced – in many cases there are none because once again the writers have chosen to overlook this information and we now find ourselves in a plot-hole again.
So again each game-master will have their-own opinion as to what can and what cannot be produced - for me yes; for you probably no … “all-ways with those negative waves” ….. Am I correct?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/07/18 11:21 AM
66.74.61.223
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The issue is what the IS knew and has.
The assumption is that there are hundreds, if not thousands of Vengeance carriers in the FC. As they much buy them from foreign sources, it is more likely to use Leopard CV's for moving them. Yes, they will have some. Maybe even thousands.
The assumption that the resources were there and ready is where this goes wrong.
I am basing this on all the information suggesting the IS isn't up to full numbers nor have the excess the alt version seems to have.
The Vengeance. How many can be built in a single year?
How many actually exist?
Between the two, it is unlikely to make the more then 6, maybe 10 each. So say maybe 3-11 regiments worth, and that is after a full year of production. That is also if the FWL will sell to the FC. The DC makes their own, but how many?
They aren't like a gun or even vehicle you could build in a field tent.
And what about the parts for the ships?
It is extremely possible the lack of engines slows down the production of them.
Now this can be applied to the fighters. No numbers on what is built or exists.
I do agree somewhat that with all the mechs available, there should be enough to equip the troops, though the issue of if the units they already had were filled or not. Some things suggest it takes a while to replace units, while others seem to refill in less then a few months.
Now the issue with jumpships. Again, not numbers, but if the FS was destroying their economy, it can't be that many. Of all the units that participated in the 4th war, both against the CC and DC, they sure don't have enough to move units from the FS to the front quickly. No command circuits. Even then, taking a single dropship from even the Towne or someplace like that, will take months. So just moving them into a defensive position is bad.
Now the lack of intel. How long does it take to infiltrate a base? The rescue hostages, or kidnap more?
Time out getting to a long range shuttle, as a dropship is more likely to draw attention and keep it until they find the wreckage or make it themselves. That is also assuming they have some close enough to even send and have the ships available. Contacting them on world is not likely. Comstar was keeping all transmissions they sent clean of any information. The black boxes were still not the numerous, and would need to be on world at the time of the invasion, or brought in with the group. And now you risk the clans finding them, and finding a way to block or atleast flood the system with garbage.
I would love some others to actually voice what they think on this.
Also, go to the official battle tech board and suggest this. They would have more information, though very likely to just ban you. Though you might get one of the developers to actually answer the questions.
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Requiem
07/07/18 07:52 PM
58.175.193.140
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Again …. This is just semantics …
1. We don’t know how many Vengeance Carriers exist within each great house;
2. We don’t know how many are produced each year by either the FWL or the DC;
3. We don’t know if the FWL will sell them to the FC;
4. We don’t know the number of FS jump-ships – your opinions are based upon the war of 3039 and you say their numbers are not enough to move their forces quickly – however, remember the 4SW when they utilized not only the militaries Jump-ships they also utilized the civilian jump-ships at the same time and they did have adequate numbers;
5. Command Circuits to the front line – remember FS only needs to get them close then either LC or DC could get them all of the way – this would be a provision within the new Star League to help each other fight the Clans – so in my opinion, yes, they would have enough jump-ships. (Thus months down to weeks – defence good)
But truth be told neither of us know for sure as there is no definitive information regarding numbers, we are both just guessing.
6. Again with the lack of itel. – me, yes we do – you, no we don’t – even if you are using people on the ground (insurgents – same as WWII partisans France, Belgium, Norway, etc .Evey country German / Italian forces went into also had partisans) – thus the commando forces could be provided with a reasonable assessment of op.for. – given a week or two they would then be prepared to strike.
7. Supposition Black Boxes not that numerous – me, yes – you, no – post operation scourge and the original FS interdiction in my opinion would require of Hanse to make a very large stockpile.
But truth be told, again, neither of us know for sure as there is no definitive information regarding numbers, we are both just guessing.
Why do you keep saying I would be Banned from the official site, can you give a reason? –
Though could even a developer answer the question – as would not the answer change from one developer to the next developer, as their perceptions could have changed over the years if it was only discussed and not written down. The only reliable information is that which is written down – and again only for Canon.
However you have not yet answered the question from the previous post:-
If you believe these (mine) to be horrible plans to achieve IS victory then as a ‘General’ I wait with anticipation as your view on how victory can be achieved over the Clans. …. What are your manoeuvres covert or otherwise?
As, again, all you have discussed is why, in your opinion, my plans are not feasible … so what is feasible?
Question what is you definition regarding Military acceptable risk? have you even considered this?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/07/18 11:02 PM)
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ghostrider
07/08/18 12:13 AM
66.74.61.223
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And now I figured out why this discussion bothers me.
No hard numbers on anything for the public.
Saying the writers are wrong because they didn't do this, or did this, yet the developers made THEIR game, THEIR way.
That is saying they can not make their own campaigns and run it their way.
They knew what they have/didn't have, and even if they just made it up, there is no way for us to know what they had.
So saying they should have done what is suggested in the alt threads if fine for your game, but stop saying the writers are wrong. It was their choice to make it the way it is.
Now.
#4. The amount of jumpships is based on the 4th war, as well as the entire implications of the game. Destroy your economy, and force worlds to suffer, just to get the forces and supplies for the CC invasion done. I do not see the ability to increase the amount by more then maybe 2 dozen spread over the IS in a year. Until the fixed and upgraded the ship yards, limited capacity was the key word. For all units, not just jumpships. And the implication that the materials for the jump core was rare adds to this.
I do not think they are horrible plans. I think the supposition of what is available to do what is in error. Trying to do things in space is nothing like land. There is no submersible to get you to a shore undetected. No real parachuting, though halo drops can be done. With clan upgrades, detecting them would be more then likely. Any ships making a run would be hard pressed to get in, and out, and not risk the ships involved. Lithium batteries are needed, and without hard numbers, it has to be based on what we know. The governments are cheap on things, so would probably have a very few ships with lithium cells.
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Requiem
07/08/18 03:11 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: It was their choice to make it the way it is.
Is it not my choice to express my opinion and ways as to how I see it could be improved upon?
Cannot I say I disagree and why – and then go on to explain how I believe it could be improved upon?
All I get is I am forcing my opinions upon others … untrue
When you look for the worst in people that is all you will find!
Now back to the forum…
Jump-ships – an accurate figure cannot be supplied – we have been over this, there are no numbers we are all guessing so forcing your figures your supposition upon my alt world suggestions helps who? Cannot we just say we are making a supposition that there is enough and leave it at that?
The Plans – you have said you don’t like them fine – but what about others out there who don’t write in the forums who do like the idea – cannot you be happy for them that I am working out a new game scenario for them to run, why keep putting me down?
As for Jump-ships , because this is a calculated risk, and they would want to ensure the survival of their new Fenrir Units, I would believe that the FC would ensure all sips are equipped with Lithium Batteries just to be on the safe side. There is a lot of money and prayers going into this endeavour thus giving them a good first step is the correct approach to ensuring a successful venture within the Deep Periphery.
So,
we do know that the Clans do have supply issues (p. 110 Invading Clans)
We do know they would need a single system to transport their supplies from the home worlds to one or more central distribution hubs (efficiency alone would dictate this otherwise each Clan would have their own which is inefficient and a waste of resources);
IS forces to have the ability and the men and machines to go after them in the Deep Periphery;
Yes it is a great calculated risk – but the reward of slowing the clans down – taking their resources and adding it to our own – thereby creating a closer technological parity on the battlefield thereafter is worth the risk;
Thus it is a green to go … assemble your forces and good hunting …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
07/08/18 10:03 AM
67.8.230.40
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Quote:
In re-creating the Inner Sphere Navies – Warships – the majority of the Great houses went straight for the Battleship / cruiser etc however it is quite noticeable that only the Free Worlds League contemplated the air-crat carrier.
In space protecting your commerce space traffic and your planets …. Your first line of defence would come back to that of the WWII pacific … a Navy War … a war of aerospace fighters armed with Capital Missiles … a war of introducing the big wing again against the Clan warships – launched from their Carrier.
1) Fighters can't be armed with capital missiles
2) Fighters are not the ultimate weapon in 31st Century aerospace combat, unlike the WW2 Pacific
The first WarShips built by the 31st Century Inner Sphere were not optimized by any means, but fighter carriers aren't the ultimate weapon. Just give the rules for High Speed Closing Engagements and fuel consumption a good look.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
07/08/18 10:36 AM
58.175.193.140
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Under Sarna Wiki – Nuclear Weapons we have the following …. I am just lifting the definition of a Capital Missile to include the following types as in my opinion they should also be classified as such…
The Alamo is a 5 kiloton nuclear missile which can be carried by aerospace and conventional fighters. They can be used either in space or in an atmosphere to attack air and ground targets, but don't have the range for orbital bombardments or to attack targets in orbit while in an atmosphere. Though fairly lightweight at only five tons, an Alamo still negatively affects the carrying fighter's flight characteristics per missile carried (only fighters of 50 tons or greater can carry an Alamo, while only a 100-ton fighter can carry two). When used in an atmosphere an Alamo can either operate in ground- or air-burst modes with a range of over ten kilometers, which it can travel in just twenty seconds.[2]
And under Air-to-Air Arrow Missile we have ….
The Air-to-Air Arrow Missile or (AAA) was a joint project developed by the Lyran Alliance and Clan Wolf-in-Exile in 3072. This Arrow IV variation was designed in response to Clan Jade Falcon and Word of Blake invaders, intended as a means of bolstering friendly aerospace forces fighting against other airborne targets.[1]
High Speed Closing Engagements and fuel consumption
Sorry cannot find these on the wiki – can you supply a copy or provide book pg # & name and hopefully I have it.
Found Fuel Consumption in Aerotech 2 - advises it is an optional rule ...
Unable to find High Speed Closing Engagements - please advise as to rule
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/08/18 07:52 PM)
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ghostrider
07/08/18 08:30 PM
66.74.61.223
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I do not think they are horrible plans. I think the supposition of what is available to do what is in error.
How that change to hating the plans has me confused. Maybe skimming messages is causing this. Maybe I need to find out the codes to have it flash and set off bells and whistles.
Other then the target for the 3039 war, I was trying to show you how and why things were done they way they were. You asked for input, and got it.
Not liking it is fine.
Saying this is the only way to have done things, while assuming things like numbers of jumpships for the canon universe is the problem.
It is that simple.
I would have done, is the main words to avoid sounding like you think the writers didn't follow the developers ideas for the game.
This is getting out of hand. Go to the official board and put this up. They can tell you why it was done as it was. Obviously, I can't show you where things are wrong.
So ends this argument.
Edited by ghostrider (07/08/18 08:33 PM)
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Requiem
07/09/18 12:08 AM
58.175.193.140
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Did you ever think that they did not include the numbers of Jump-ships and Drop-ships on purpose – by doing so they provide gamers with the freedom to plan their own adventures and have the equipment they want to go on those adventures without restrictions?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/25/18 01:47 AM
58.175.193.140
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Consider introducing BattleSats not only within the Draconis Combine but also within the Federated Commonwealth and the Free Worlds League ….
Wiki Notes “The first prototype entered service in 3056, and by 3057 five had been deployed in orbit. BBP Industries informed the Draconis Combine Admiralty that they could produce twenty more in "the next three months"[2] , suggesting that the simple design of the BattleSat was a key factor in production”.
And ….. Pg. 204 – 205 Technical readout 3057 Dropships, Jumpships and Warships.
Thus not only could the Inner Sphere have warships they now have pocket warships “BattleSats” – and in large numbers if 20 can be produced in three months.
Thus the Inner Sphere Navy will be quite formidable by 3060
Warships
Battlesats
Big Wing Aerospace fighters with Missiles
However can battlesats be transported like Dropships? Considering its mass the answer would be yes they can
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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GunslingerPatch
07/26/18 02:52 PM
216.134.254.194
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Space combat has always been a big hole in the universe. The lack of sub-light warships especially. Any star system with a vital target to defend should rightly be defended by In-system warships without KF drives and armed with capital weapons that weigh in at a quarter million tons or so. Any shipyard or capital planet should have whole squadrons of them.
But I can understand why that was left out. If the navies were done right, ground forces would not be the center of the game, warships and their crews would be. Since the mechs would only land after space was secured and then anyone they fought would face orbital bombardment.
And of course all that fluff about how hard it is to build warships... a government with the taxes of literally hundreds of worlds can't produce a few dozen assorted jump capable warships in a year? Of course they could. The US keeps a 2-300 warship navy including 10-12 carriers, each equivalent to an aerotech battleship and we do it with the Navy's fraction of the 4% of the govt.'s money it spends on the military each year. If it were 10% we'd be building a new carrier and a swarm of other ships every year.
To say that a House can't muster the space power to require an attacker to hit a vital system with a real FLEET to stand a chance is just BS. But again, I can understand it. The mechs came first and the rest was ad-hoc, created more by us fans than by the canon.
And that doesn't even get into the nukes. They may be forbidden for ground attacks, but what about space. There's no reason at all why a ship with big missiles can't have nuclear warheads on them. That would in fact do a lot to explain how the navies and shipyards could all get so destroyed so fast.
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ghostrider
07/26/18 04:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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How much of the history of the game did you read?
The succession wars destroyed most of the ship yards, and those left didn't have the means or knowledge to build alot of the more advanced tech. Check out the TRO 3025 and TRO 3026. Those were supposed to be the peak of the IS tech at that time.
As was told in a threat that is pretty old now, the reason why it was done that way is because this is supposed to be armored combat. Mainly people wanting to play mechs on mechs. To actually have a full defensive system in all systems would mean you are not likely to do more then Aerotech fighters trying to even get to the planets.
The concept at the time the game was made, if you had the blueprints or tech readout for a warship, you would have to use a butter knife and gum to make it. Alot has changed since then, but the writers and developers have seemed to keep with limited abilities.
And at one time, they did have fleets of warships. They were all destroyed as well as planetary defenses during the succession wars. Some from spec ops doing their job.
As a side note, nukes are not that powerful in the game. They irradiate anyone that isn't protected from it, but for the most part, other capital missiles are more powerful against starcraft.
What happens when the unit carrying the nukes goes down or has an issue and crashed before they are used?
Another spec ops idea comes to mind here. Arm and explode them in the ship or even the factory they are made in. Even someone just not paying attention could set one off. Then if you fire on a ship between you and a planet, what happens when you miss?
Just too dangerous to really play with. Plus no one wants to play when your characters have radiation poisoning.
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Requiem
07/26/18 06:18 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: but the writers and developers have seemed to keep with limited abilities.
The Monitor issue for one;
Second – a non-atmospheric dropships (Achilles) retrofitted with Naval Lasers also comes to mind (similar to that as a BattleSat) – something I would like to convert into a PT Craft – 2 capital OS missiles attached like aerospace fighter missile / bombs + a Naval Laser
How limited do you want to get?
Warship fleets still exist – look at the Clans and their numbers - and again why were they never discussed in any real detail? Why were the IS forces never allowed any real counter measure against them – Big Aerospace Wings – Ship Killer missiles (non-nukes) etc
It just seems as if the writers have a proclivity towards ‘Mechs on their own – however, a battlefield is determined by how each unit works in conjunction with its allied forces not one force on its own
If you don’t want aerospace / vehicles / infantry / waships – come up with a weapon that has made them obsolete …. Otherwise you do need to include them
Another hole that will never get fixed in the rule book? Maybe there needs to be a new section in the forum – House Rules – to discuss issues when the game produces a hole, how it should be fixed – if the developers won’t fix it the gamers should?
As for the issue of Nukes ….
Yes the game designers have clearly reduced their ability to a fraction of what they should be able to do which is clearly irritating …. Ie. the thermal energy generated from even a small nuke would melt a vast hole into even the largest warship (ie the temperature is greater than the sun!)
QUOTE: Just too dangerous to really play with. Plus no one wants to play when your characters have radiation poisoning.
However they were used during the Jihad and by extension allowed into the game – I know my unit was nuked. So again why allow it in if it just causes mass problems in the first place?
And Characters have died due to radiation – Grayson Death Carlyle (though from an engine leak not a nuke)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/27/18 03:00 AM
66.74.61.223
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They did leave some wiggle room with keeping warships in storage for Comstar. The fact they could build the engines needed for the IS warships when made was not really addressed as it should have been.
There is actually a thread that was started for suggestions for house rules.
And the developers did come up with something to remove normal infantry. Powersuits/elemental armor. The elemental armor being one that would or should remove normal infantry from most of the game except guard duty or other menial tasks for the militaries. Cost is what was meant to keep them down, which is crap. Trillions spent on things, and they don't have the forces needed? But again, if the writers had the stuff as it should be, the game would not exist as it does.
Now for the stupid thing about the radiation death of Grayson Carlyle. The engines are supposedly non radioactive, IE nothing in it would do such a thing. The fusion reaction is supposedly just high temperature, or so was said in another thread a while back.
This came about as some reactors that had leaks, would walk thru towns, and not kill the people around them. Even leaving the reactor running as they reloaded ammo as another issue with this. This would make no sense if allowing mech patrols in cities with this danger. And if it could get into the cockpit, which should be shielded from such hazards, even damaged one, what would happen to someone watching a parade of them go by?
As for allowing things, someone wants to try things most of the rest think is borderline sick. Getting information out of prisoners comes to mind. I have known 2 people that wanted to role play that. Needless to say, the group told them drop it or leave.
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Requiem
07/27/18 05:38 AM
58.175.193.140
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When considering warships , the Clans and the Inner Sphere there is a huge disparity between the two states. The writing behind this was, in my opinion, mismanaged as when they first became apparent in the initial stages of the Clan Invasion - if you were attacked by a force that had warships (The Clans) as a General would you consider that your number one issue would be how to contain such a threat to your forces and your empire as you do not know if they will use them for orbital bombardments / attacking your Jumpship fleet etc.
Thus you need to devise ways to contain them, given the resources you have, such as large aerospace fighter groups; or retrofitting your dropships with naval grade weapons.
Why this was never discussed is beyond my understanding.
I agree there is a need for more house rules within the game to fix some of the more blatant issues that make no sense whatsoever in the game …
As for Grayson Carlyle – his supposed death due to a leak in his engine shows the writer / fact checkers of this novel did not have an understanding of Battletech ‘Mech Engines.
A Battlemech’s fusion engine can last for decades on a few kilograms of “Light” hydrogen, protium.
So there is no radiation / nuclear materials whatsoever!
And I agree Nukes should never have ever been allowed into the game whatsoever. And even the use of poison gas during the 4SW (Thankyou CC) should never have occurred … it was the first step down a dark path …
There should only be conventional warheads only ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/27/18 06:17 AM)
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GunslingerPatch
07/27/18 01:20 PM
216.134.254.194
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Quote:
How much of the history of the game did you read?
All of it. The only Btech publication I don't have is the original Fox and Hound novel, but I've read that too.
However the rest of your post indicates you didn't read much of mine.
And just because I've read it all, many times, doesn't mean I like it much.
So many people died that so much knowledge was lost. I don't buy it. Before the Star League fell when somebody wanted a new, yet really crappy corvette, they'd say "Build 500 of them" And then build them in a decade or so.
There's no way that can be done without shipyards, good sized ones, pretty much all over the place. Pretty much any well established world with heavy industry would have a shipyard that built some kind of jumpship, and that doesn't even count the dropship yards, which would be even more numerous. I see the Terran Hegemony being devastated between Amaris wanting to destroy anything he could not own and the Houses taking control of rich planets by nuking the hell out of them (which kind of goes against the grain of taking the rich planet to increase one's power but oh well). And I can see the Taurians losing all their shipyards for a time since no matter what the fluff says, the Star League was there to conquer and enslave them and destroyed their heavy industries to "help" them. But I can't see the Houses being so far reduced in their ability to build ships.
As I said, I can understand why it was done, to keep the focus on ground combat. But the way it done was lousy. A whole realm of literally hundred of worlds, reduced to producing maybe one or two little merchant jumpships a year and no warships at all. Not to mention fighters, hundreds of them. Can you see a space shipyard that doesn't have whole regiments of fighters stationed there permanently? That is just too much for suspension of disbelief to work. A House realm would have had dozens if not scores of shipyards and every one of them would have had a fleet of warships and pocket warships there to protect it. Even after all that fighting, the defense would have been no laughing matter at any surviving shipyard.
But yet, when the Kathil Shipyard was attacked by the House Liao, what was it a lousy one or two battalions, that the defenders saw coming, that had no fleet of escorts just the dropships with the mechs in them and not a fighter in sight. And there were zero defenses in space to prevent their landing and the local forces defending this planet and this vital, vital shipyard was just one battalion of battlemechs and not a single aerospace fighter in sight? That was BS.
It is a huge whole in the universe and no way of fixing it in sight.
And the nukes not being worth much? Also BS. A tomahawk cruise missile can mount a 10 kiloton warhead that holds more destructive power than the full broadside of an SLDF battleship but 1000 years later nobody can manage this? They can build fusion reactors to put under the hood of their CAR, but they can't make nuke tipped missiles? Pretty hard to believe. Especially now that the Word of Blake has managed this just fine on dozens of worlds.
As I said, I can understand why it was done. But the way it was done was ham handed and awful.
And let's not even get into how a mech battalion or regiment with perhaps a whole infantry battalion as backup is going to conquer and then control the streets of an entire planet with hundreds of millions of people on it. Not when we already know that it took 6 combat brigades of the US Army to restore control of the streets during the LA riots in the 90s. And that wasn't the whole city, that was just one small fraction of it. And then a Clan cluster with say 150 elementals and 35 mechs is also going to do all that? If things were realistic more Elementals would be killed by snipers while out of their armor than ever died in combat. And there would be no way in hell the Clans could keep up with losses like that with their small numbers. Does an entire Clan even have 1000 elementals? 2000?
Huge holes. But these holes are testament to how interesting this universe is, since despite all those holes in the fabric, more than 3 decades later, it is still going and we are still debating it all the time.
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ghostrider
07/27/18 06:59 PM
66.74.61.223
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The succession wars were supposed to have destroyed a majority of the ship yards that were around for the IS house. Those few left were implied to be barely functioning, with all data for warships and even other jumpships besides what they currently make being lost. Viruses, data storage being destroyed. A whole slew of things.
Now fighters do not need to be made in a ship yard in space. They can and are produced in ground facilities, as well as some dropships. The MAC adventure pack had them trying to guard one such facility
The Kathil shipyard attack shows the writers and developers wanted it done that way. They should have had some defenses up, yet the implication is the forces were stripped to attack the CC for the fourth war. Being an important world, I do not see it being like alot of worlds that there is only a single lance or something like it guarding it.
One thing that does need to be pointed out here, is the time that this era was written in. 1988. The game was still behind in reality. For a futuristic game, they lacked alot of tech that was coming out at the time. From what it seems, they were surprise the game was still going. As other threads said, they did not even figure out some of the history before this time, ie star league equipment. No where in any of the books before hand said anything about finding the upgraded mechs and weapons. No ammo. No loose weapons. Not even examples of armor or internal structure. Nothing. Only when the 2750 book came out did they say anything about that tech.
So yeah. Some of it was poorly planned and written.
Now comes more things that really changed the game. Rules. Some of the rule changes screwed up so much of it, as they finally figured out something was too powerful and nerfed them. By doing that, they changed the history of what happened, yet didn't fix it.
As for the clan comment, would that be for all the clans combined? Or each individual clan?
Some would be light on elementals, while others would have more then that. The invasion force did not include their entire forces.
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GunslingerPatch
07/27/18 11:47 PM
216.134.254.194
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I meant just one Clan. Most Clans are listed as having about a half dozen galaxies. Most clusters are listed as part on one galaxy or another. The Clan invasion was another one of the holes. No matter how good their stuff is, their actual numbers are small, very small. That or there at least a hundred independent clusters in each Clan that we never got told about. Plus a few hundred clusters of just foot infantry.
How many times does a single Clan cluster with maybe 2 stars worth of elementals land, beat the defenders, and then both govern and control the whole planet? Even though I don't remember reading anything about a Clan appointing someone governor of a planet or anything in the fiction about Clan commanders dealing with local govt leaders. But it would have to happen.
The Clans have foot infantry, freebirths. But since they don't like freebirths, how many of those could there be? There would need to be whole clusters and galaxies of them, but we never see those, just the front line mech units. And the Clans themselves have few planets and thus a small population. Small enough that the Ghost Bears uproot and move themselves to the Inner Sphere inside of a decade. Small populations that don't like freebirths having guns and authority don't have many regiments of infantry. The Smoke jaguars? They would have zero freebirth infantry units. And no trueborn foot infantry either. Maybe they popped more elementals out of the test tubes. But still, does a Clan have 1000 elementals or 2000? The Clan orders of battle mention a garrison unit here and there. But for an invasion of such scale, each invading Clan would need a few hundred clusters of garrison troops, mechs, tanks, and lots of infantry available to keep control of anything not right on the front line. And a Clan lacks the ships to move and supply all of that with too.
What I said about the 6 brigades and the LA riots? I got that from reading an article written by a man who was there at the time as a junior officer. There's various factors that go into it, but basically a combat brigade is only 6 or 700 actual shooters and on any given day only half of them can be expected to be available. And out of those you have to mount guards and patrols on 3 shifts, plus reserve reaction forces on 3 shifts. Hence it took 6 brigades out of an army that at the time had about 70 brigades to control the streets of one modest part of the city of Los Angeles. To exert such 24/7 control over that entire county and city would have needed the entire army.
Take that Clan cluster, instead of controlling the entire planet and several continents, instead they are controlling say a city of about 50,000. In 3 shifts. And this is ignoring the need of a military unit for support elements. Elementals don't fix or maintain their own gear, freebirths do that. More than one per elemental and mechwarrior I assume.
The mechwarriors can't do much to keep order in the streets, a mech can stomp someone, but it can't walk into buildings and homes and talk to the people. That requires the infantry, about 3 dozen of whom are on duty at any one time. They're not going to patrol or control much at all. Not without spreading out in ones and 2s all over town. And how many of that 3 dozen have to stay at the Clan Base to protect it from attacks? The Clans can nuke that town, but they can't rule or govern it. Or the rest of the planet for that matter.
Its another one of those huge holes that for the sake of the game and the fiction, we usually just ignore.
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Requiem
07/28/18 12:53 AM
58.175.193.140
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And this is why I keep on harping on about insurgents in the game … a SOE (Special Operation Executive) - Commando and Partisan activity upon captured worlds ….
And again, another hole that should have been explored, and utilized, to expand and grow the overall dimensions of the game to its fullest.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/28/18 01:24 AM
58.175.193.140
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Question:
If I take a two-and-half kilometre long Newgrange-Class Yardship (Introduced in2600) - that has enough cargo storage to house an entire dismantled destroyer – how many Naga Caspar II Control ships, Dragau Assault Interceptor Caspar II Drones and Tiamat Pocket Warship Caspar II Drones do you think I could put into its cargo storage bay, whilst I jump around the Inner Sphere, causing mayhem as I go?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/28/18 01:28 AM
66.74.61.223
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The novels and resource books do state the clans generally allowed the current government to stay in place if they didn't do anything against the clans. FRR had one world Phelan Ward convinced the governor to give up and run the world for Clan Wolf.
Those that didn't, they were using comstar to run when they could.
Misconception with the foot soldiers. There were trueborns in there as well. Those that failed to impress, yet good enough not to die, even though they fought long and hard, never giving up. The Jade Falcon books discussed this as well as a few others.
There is also some stories that suggested those that failed to become warriors took up infantry or police spots, gaining them some access to mechs and such. Even second and third line units would suffice for some.
And the game focused on the front line units in the clans, there is some information that said some of the clans did infact have freeborns driving mechs and forming infantry clusters. The Wolf's Dragoons were drawn from Clan Wolf's resources. All 5 regiments and the other supporting units.
One more thing. It is implied that the government keep the civvies in line, so you don't have to have that many soldiers garrison the worlds. Not very likely they would do so, but it is there.
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Requiem
07/28/18 02:10 AM
58.175.193.140
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However, it must be said the mathematics of the size of an individual Clans entire military (and the size of their Invasion Military Forces) and the number of worlds they conquered are an available fact – thus you can work out the size of each garrison force given this information.
Once you investigate it – may I suggest using an Excel sheet - what it comes down to, once calculated, it is a very small force per world.
So garrisons and controlling worlds, it is more out of fear than anything else in my opinion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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GunslingerPatch
07/29/18 11:38 PM
216.134.254.194
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Fighting against a guerilla force means having about a 20 to 1 advantage in numbers to win. Because you have to be everywhere and they don't. So such small garrison forces simply can't control much. They can't enforce their rule, not even on just one continent.
And all these planetary govts just giving in and going over? What happened to national loyalty? The govt that ruled in the name of their nation suddenly, in about 10 minutes, is enforcing the will of the invader? No resisting? No sabotage? No political leaders getting shot by angry citizens who feel betrayed?
If the cops and the militia don't want to go along with that, how can you stop them? The Clan cluster us just too small to go out there and find them.
This is what the canon has done, but it violates common sense.
Sure the Clans have some foot infantry, but how much? Some trueborns could be this, but again, how many? If it were enough for whole regiments of infantry, I just don't see that 1 or 2 out of a hundred who actually graduate to having a mech being in charge of the Clan. And how many freeborns can there be doing this? In the Clans you don't see a lot of freeborns called Star Colonel. (I'm not sure I've seen any). And someone has to command those infantry units.
Perhaps it is like some House armie where the infantryunit leaders are just lower ranked than would be the case for a mech unit of the same "size", but I don't think the Clan fluff says something about that.
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Requiem
07/30/18 01:15 AM
58.175.193.140
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The Clan Invasion isn’t about logic or military strategy / tactics, in my opinion, it is about two things only –
First, Reversing the idea, that, the Inner Spheres technology being reduced to an almost 20th Century level due to an almost constant Warfare. New Space Operas being released (ideas and competitors of the game) required a higher level of technology – and in so doing you retain / increase the fan base with the introduction of advanced weapons etc.
Second, The Inner Sphere pre Clan Invasion Great houses numbers were dwindling – thus the writers / development staff felt they did not have enough enemy combatants to fight against each other (4 + the periphery) – bust with multiple independent Clans that fight everyone (including themselves) – more opportunities for conflict “by having more players of the field” as it were.
It is just a pity no one thought it all through before launching them into the Inner Sphere, if they had done so then maybe the writing would not have been so prosaic! And the extreme number of plot holes could have been minimised or even eliminated completely if a little more thought had been given to the Invasion.
But as it is – it is a mess of cringe-worthy plots that make little to no advancement in science fiction literature.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/30/18 01:57 AM
66.74.61.223
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Star commander is about the highest rank clans allow freeborns, and that is if they allow them in mechs at all. Some were completely denied, while others used them as needed.
The few ruling the clans comes from the blood named lines. If they kept with the original lines, most clans had like 20 blood lines in them. So about 400 people per clan had last names. They were those that ruled. Failed trainees were tended to be sent to other castes, though enough made mech warrior, only to fail in the eyes of those that rules, and sent to the infantry.
And the blood names were for Aero pilots as well as elementals, so not all were mech warriors. The numbers are probably wrong, as there was only 800 warriors that liberated the home worlds.
The IS, at least border worlds, tended to keep out of revolts and such when conquered, as invaders tended to kill civilians that rebelled. That also meant innocent people. Most did not have their lives changed more then when and who taxes went to. National pride was there, but would you walk up to someone that just took over by a gun and say they weren't in charge? We are talking societies that were used to being invaded. When you get raided once a year or more, you tend to get sick of it. Those who keep the peace are more likely to be welcomed then those that let you suffer the raids. Replacement of the top governmental people is very common, so police would still do what they were supposed to, even if they didn't like the new rules.
Becoming part of a resistance? Very possible, but do you risk your family being targeted if found out?
There is a small issue with the size of garrison needed for worlds. If you are reliant on things from off world, such as water purifiers, then you do as you are told, or die from thirst. Not a good thing to think of, but easy enough way to control the population.
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Requiem
07/30/18 06:56 AM
58.175.193.140
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With regards to the resistance – have a look at either WWII resistance movements within Europe and the Pacific or Vietnam …. Or you could even go back further …. “I am Spartacus!”
The desire to obtain freedom no matter the cost is ingrained within the human psyche!
And using a stand over technique to enforce civil compliance is a quick was to lose it – especially if an outside group can supply the people with the items / food / water they require to live
Remember this quote? …. “Those who trade freedom for security in the end get neither!”
The absence of insurgent groups / commando forces upon invaded worlds – especially when they will disrupt society the way Clans would want an Inner Sphere Society to ‘covert’ to a Clan Society – was never discussed (Huge plot hole) because of the distressing nature of the story wold inevitably devolve into (Rioting, reprisal killings etc). It would get dark very quickly, and this is going against how the Battletech universe is to be portrayed don’t you think?
As it is not about getting use to ongoing invasions by different forces – it is about how people are treated under the new change – it was documented that The FS and DC just changed the Public holidays – the Currency – and other small changes upon newly conquered worlds, they did not attempt a major change whatsoever, but the Clans they would demand a major change when they will attempt to force people into their way of life (hence the rise in insurgents).
And as discussed before most garrisons prior to Tukayyid and the introduction of PGCs were very small – thus they cannot enforce policy – they would be seen as week – they would become a target for insurgents angry at being forced to adopt clan life.
Question – How would an Inner Sphere family react when they are told their child will be fostered out to another family? Anger, rage, vengeance ….?
When these issues were never addressed by any of the books … the silence is the thunderous, don’t you think?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/30/18 11:10 AM
66.74.61.223
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Running along canon lines, the clans did address how they got around alot of the issues of the military takeover of the clans. Weither it is accepted or not, it was printed how the writers wanted it.
The conquered IS worlds would be a different story. Some clans were very brutal if you broke certain laws of theirs, while others were not so harsh. Once the people learned of them, they would not be so hard up for 'freedom' as they would have most of it under their 'rule' as they did under IS rule. In some cases, they would actually have more, as the clans didn't care about freeborns and what they did, as long as they followed their laws.
Those that used Comstar to administer worlds, had an advantage over those that didn't. The media manipulation and politically charged comstar admins, would have a better idea on how to keep the public in line.
As said with the FS and DC rang true for all the IS houses. Victor said that in the later books, while it was brought up with the fourth war as well. Most only had holidays and tax time changed.
The freedom statement shows the reason why some governments would never allow colonies to be self sufficient. And blockade runners? Some would still try, but those that owned the jumpships would think long and hard more then once before helping with it. Losing business, being blacklisted on up to having their property seized would prevent most of this. Large corporations may still do such things, as they can pass it off to 'rogue' members, but there has to be a good reason to do so. Rare elements, major ores or something to make the risks worth it.
Personally, I don't agree with doing things like starving a colony to keep it in line. I do understand the use of it. Part of why the Hemogany lost the worlds they did to the houses.
And a side note. No matter what, you will always have those people that think they should be able to do as they want, which normally means at the end of a gun. Gangs and illegal militias around today are very much along those lines.
This should actually go into another thread, as it is getting off the naval wars with the clans.
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Requiem
07/30/18 08:22 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes I agree it is getting off the thread, but how many of my other posts in the past were constantly getting off thread by what was introduced to counter one argument from another?
That said ….
Following Clan rules and everything will be fine …. like I believe that … just be the lamb …. Give up your children (fostering) … just give up your family identity (last name) … just join a stratified society in which you will never have a say in the government as your “masters” who are genetically engineered to be better than you will have the final say on everything.
Be calm … everything is fine …don’t panic
QUOTE: The freedom statement shows the reason why some governments would never allow colonies to be self sufficient.
Errrr …. No …. Too overly simplistic statement, most would want them to be self-sufficient as they are no longer a drain on resources / plus it makes for good PR when, as a government official, you can point to a major success.
And part of being self-sufficient is the right to bear arms … the right to form militias against those that may oppose their way of life / just because it may be different does not mean it is wrong.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/18 12:52 AM
66.74.61.223
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The right to bear arms.
That alone would cause alot of governments to cringe. They want you to be dependent on them for things, especially who has weapons to fight back.
This isn't a single world that you can drop thousands of troops in another nation in a few hours. You are talking once you get word of something happening, it could be months before you get someone there to calm things down, if you can calm them down.
The hemogony and League had those issues.
The entire IS is based on feudalism. A few worlds band together, and form a new nation. No way other then a full out strike to bring them back into the fold if they are self sufficient. Now you send in the troops to take it back. Then rebuild, hoping those still alive will accept you back. Otherwise, you spend all this time and money for them to do it again. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
The lack of control over things is where this goes awry. The 'overlords' want to have everyone loyal to them. If they don't need you for anything, they are just as likely to say screw paying you taxes, as we can do things cheaper and easier, then keeping with you. They can always get the little they might need from someone else.
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Requiem
07/31/18 06:59 AM
58.175.193.140
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Being a colony that was trained by a parent world (and ensured they have the right type of ‘Chaps’ in control, that of the officers) and armed by the parent world – who will have family ties with their parent world – will support each other on the field of battel, as it would have to get very bleak indeed for two brother worlds to go to war against each other don’t you think?
If an issue does break out on the colony – like all military doctrine you have to trust the man on the ground to fix the problem – if they are unable to do so, then the House Lord will get involved, which will mean ‘Mechs etc to restore law and order.
And being self-sufficient does not mean that they will automatically become an autonomous world, a power unto itself, being part of collective group includes other factors such as, historical, economic, military, political, religious, and social factors. Also if you did declare independence how long would this last? Who would invade you – as sometimes its better the devil you know.
Though, yes some will always want their independence no matter how much better off they would be if they remained with the collective group (such as the Skye Liberation group?)
Even though it is a feudal society with regards to the senior levels of Government – How many worlds Lords compromise upon having absolute power and adopt a relationship with a democratic government upon that world / or something similar (ie. a very British Government for the betterment of their citizens) such as the Federated Commonwealth?
Thus you get the best out of both worlds for each world in the Inner Sphere.
Thus you also now have happy citizens who will die to protect this system that gives them a voice, and a future for them and their children and will look after them throughout all their life and that of the children’s life.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
07/31/18 10:22 PM
50.53.22.4
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"THE OUTWORLDS ALLIANCE: We shall fight them in space; we shall fight them in the air; we shall fight them -- oh, screw it, we'll just fight them in space."
(And it's *worked*.... >:) )
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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