Bob_Richter
03/05/02 06:42 PM
134.121.157.14
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Um. yes. I have that now. It was my older calculation that was incorrect.
OTOH, Warships are full of light things like hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
03/05/02 06:58 PM
134.121.157.14
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>>>The 2.5 million ton cap is just there for the sake of sanity and playibility.<<<
And thus fails miserably. Have you seen the kind of sick, bizarre monstrosities you can contruct at that tonnage level?
>>>The only limit to the size of a WarShip is budget. If I wanted to build a 4.5 trillion ton WarShip, it could
be done. Not under the rules, but it is feasable.<<<
I'm not sure that's true. You wouldn't even dream of saying such a thing if we were in a terrestrial environment. Why would you think this when talking about an accelerating frame of reference with possibly more than three times Earth's gravity?
Besides, the economics in Battletech are unrealistic. Why not everything else, too?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightward
03/05/02 07:04 PM
132.234.1.13
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'And thus fails miserably. Have you seen the kind of sick, bizarre monstrosities you can contruct at that tonnage level? '
Yes. You've seen my Apocalypse. 
'I'm not sure that's true. You wouldn't even dream of saying such a thing if we were in a terrestrial environment. Why would you think this when talking about an accelerating frame of reference with possibly more than three times Earth's gravity? '
We are operating in what is essentially a zero-gravity, zero-friction environment. Now the hypothetical 4.5 trillion tonner would have a heap of inertia and would require weeks of thrust just to get up to 1 G of acceleration (an exaggeration, but I am a Biologist and not a physicist and have difficulty with Volume of Rotation, not to mention kinetc theory). So it would require massive engines and massive fuel bunkers to provide for them. The only limit to scale in space is economics. There is really no point to building vessels over 1 million tons, which is why most WarShips are Cruiser- or Destroyer-Class.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Bob_Richter
03/05/02 07:11 PM
134.121.157.14
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>>>
We are operating in what is essentially a zero-gravity, zero-friction environment.<<<
There's your error. No, we're not.
We are operating in an environment with extreme gravity (from acceleration), and while friction isn't a concern, micrometerorites and things even smaller and nastier are.
>>>Now the hypothetical
4.5 trillion tonner would have a heap of inertia and would require weeks of thrust just to get up to 1 G
of acceleration<<<
Thrust/Inertia = Acceleration.
High School physics.
(You don't build up acceleration. That's not how it works.)
>>>There is really no point
to building vessels over 1 million tons, which is why most WarShips are Cruiser- or Destroyer-Class. <<<
No point in building vessels over 100,000 tons or so. One naval weapon is all you need to wipe out a population center, after all.
Of course, thanks to FASA's cost tables, there is little difference in cost between a Warship at one extreme and one at the other.
(In other words, according to FASA, economics does not limit Warship size in any meaningful way.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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NathanKell
03/05/02 07:59 PM
24.44.238.62
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In short, I'm in this thing for the giant robot combat.
And I'm in it for squishing 'em with capital fire.
Just think, the scale's about right...the 1/285th mechs are there, and the foot's a NAC round 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
03/05/02 08:07 PM
24.44.238.62
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15x increase in capital weapon effectiveness, and switch the tonnage of SI : armor ratio from 50:1 to 2:1 (or even better 1:1).
And, of course, ditch the imbecilic fire control limits.
And, as Bob is fond of re-mentioning, go back to BT style ranges, and use the 2750 ones (doubled, thanks to AT2) for capital weapons. Turns out the NAC-40 was only meant to have the range of a large laser
Anyway, x15 gives the NACs about the right efficiency, and properly penalizes the energy (and gauss) weapons for extreme range.
Though the NL-35 and Lgt. NPPC really need to mass less. And the missiles are still way ineffective (x20, maybe?) especially considering PDWs can chew them up.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
03/05/02 08:08 PM
24.44.238.62
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Clearly, the tonnage needs to go WAY up
You betcha!
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
03/05/02 08:36 PM
134.121.157.14
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>>>And I'm in it for squishing 'em with capital fire. <<<
Then kindly go play a wargame that IS about gargantuan star-cruisers. Or make your own.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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NathanKell
03/05/02 09:23 PM
24.44.238.62
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It's called Battlespace.
Although my opinion of it borders on yours of MW3
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
03/05/02 11:02 PM
134.121.157.14
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So, um, make your own, as I said.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Greyslayer
03/05/02 11:55 PM
63.12.142.44
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Until of course the Warship comes under fire from planetary defence systems. Suddenly your 'power' is stripped away as Planetary Defence Lasers and Missiles lay the smack down on your 'overconfident' ship. Considering the low orbit the ship is in to be prepared to lay the smack down on the planet it has little chance to dodge and is now just an expensive piece of space wreckage about to enter the atmosphere.
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
03/06/02 12:10 AM
63.12.142.44
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Or simply have 3025 where your jumpship is protected from destruction and your dropships are to get your 'mechs to combat. Simple. 
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
03/06/02 12:24 AM
63.12.142.44
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'We are operating in an environment with extreme gravity (from acceleration), and while friction isn't a concern, micrometerorites and things even smaller and nastier are.'
Well something that size would probably not even notice micrometeorites (example of the moon ... despite the power of the hits on its surface few hits could ever crack the crust). Now watching a series called 'the planets' the other day dealt with magnetic fields and atmosphere and so on being able to deflect most objects or cause a slowing down of objects. If a race had the ability to build such a large ship they should also in theory have the technology to build a large but simple magnetic field generator. This though is not Fasa-physics so it would fail miserably as a ship of the line.
Then again this is only hypothetical,
Greyslayer
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Nightward
03/06/02 05:47 PM
132.234.1.13
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But such reagan Defence Systems are rare. If they were all that common, Katherine never would have been able to take New Avalon...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Bob_Richter
03/06/02 05:57 PM
134.121.247.162
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Naval weapons are cheaper than Warships, and overall a better investment for your average planet.
Now that they're available in large quantities, you can expect to start seeing systems seeded with Battlesats and ground-naval-weapon installations, which will make a hostile dropship landing nearly impossible.
Great...
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightward
03/06/02 06:07 PM
132.234.1.13
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So far, Luthien is the only Inner Sphere world aside from Terra that has a functional Reagan system. The Inner Sphere simply has not needed them, because there were no WarShips around to use them against. Neccessity doth innovation create. Or something like that
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
03/06/02 08:06 PM
132.234.1.13
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Luthien's system space is clogged with hundreds of BattleSat SDSes. Cheap, easy to use, and nasty in numbers. Earth has (had, perhaps, since the Com Guard didn't use it) a Reagan network consisting of automated nuke ships, ground-based capital PPC and laser installations, and in-system defence stations. I'm at a loss as to how the Blakists made it past those, but I guess it can be summed up in a word: the Author said so.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
03/06/02 08:29 PM
63.173.170.105
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When did the Luithen star system get the SDS style defenses?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
03/06/02 08:35 PM
132.234.1.13
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They have had the SDSes for a while. They are described in one of the Black Thorn books, but the Dracos kept them hidden and out of the way because they were too valuable.
Not that Luthien ever got invaded prior to the Clans...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
03/06/02 09:33 PM
63.173.170.97
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IF they had them then why weren't they used against the the Nova Cats and Smoke Jaguars when they attack Luithen?
When did they get the system? And Luithen has been invaded once before, well a minior kind of invasion, but a Comstar hired Merc unit was ready to drop on to the Imperial Palace, all taken from the House Kurtia Sourcebook, so if they had it befor the invasion why wasn't it used to take the merc dropships? (Yes I know the latest idea of new material counters older material line of reasoning from the NOW defunked FASA)
I will look the through the Black Throns book, but this seems to be a case of locking the barn door after the horse thieves have run off with the horses IMVHO.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
03/07/02 12:19 AM
132.234.1.13
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Yes, well. James D. Long just decided that Luthien should have them, I think. The BattleSat systems werer put up just after the Clan invasion of Luthien, so iot is, as you say, a case of closing the barn doors far too late.
At the time of the Com Guard raid to free Necess (I think it was) Kurita, the systems (at least according to Long) were hidden and unused because of their value. In case of a full-scale invasion of the Dragon's Lair, the Kuritans wanted them fully functional, so they kept them away from enemy raids.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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TenakaFurey
03/07/02 12:44 AM
195.92.168.174
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Mostly covered below, but....
Production capacity may not be up to such increased production. Not to mention pilots for the fighter swarms.
With fighters, fighter carriers are a weak point on offensive missions. Destroy it, and the fighters become much less of a threat - the WarShip can then engage them if it wants to.
Blockades should be conducetd in planetary space sinc ethe number of jump points render entry point interdiction ineffective.
And so on.
To a large part, I agree with you. WarShips, in the BT universe are largely ineffective. The trouble is, they do have some uses and advatages over DropShips which keepes them from being a total waste - at least, while someone else has the things.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
03/07/02 12:48 AM
195.92.168.174
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And where will the FWL get all the pilots and fighetrs it needs to crew them?
What happens when/if a Thera is lost? It automatically takes four regiments of fighters and their pilots down with it. And in the BT universe, ASFs are rare.
So while its difficult to withstand, it has its own problems. Plus, it doesn't really solev the baisc problem the FC noted with WarShips - they can't hold the land. Ground troops, and Mechs will still be needed.
EJL
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Nightmare
03/07/02 01:05 AM
194.251.240.107
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The Warship will act just like an Aircraft carrier or old Battleship: it`s the Big Gun waiting out there. Those ships
should never be moving about without a massive fleet of
lesser craft as support units. As for fighters and pilots, the
machines are probably more of a problem than the men.
The US has lots of Reserve Status pilots, but losing too
many fighters would cripple the AF for years to come.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Karagin
03/07/02 11:52 AM
63.173.170.224
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Right okay...again that clearly shows that someone made a mistake...and added in something that was never there to start with...oh well...let us hope that things like that DON'T happen anymore...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
03/07/02 12:23 PM
24.44.238.62
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Love that scene.
Also, (says Mr. Nit Pick) the word is "sanitizing" IIRC.
And I'd say it would rather be the converse in BT, with carriers sanitizing for the big (and vulnerable to fighters, but good at bombardment) warships.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightward
03/11/02 04:17 PM
132.234.1.13
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Calm down. We sorted that one out already; don't start the problem over again.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
03/11/02 04:18 PM
132.234.1.13
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Don't antagonise Karagin. You are doing now exactly what you were yelling at him for.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
03/11/02 04:19 PM
132.234.1.13
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Yep. We got more information about rules than about any 3 WarShips put together. Trust FASA, eh?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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NathanKell
03/11/02 04:47 PM
24.44.238.62
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The wobblies impersonated the mercenary unit (21st Centauri Lancers?) that was relieving the current one on Earth (since ComStar contracted Earth's defense to mercenaries as well as ComGuard). Specifically to get around the SDS, IIRC.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |