Karagin
03/07/02 08:15 PM
63.173.170.182
|
Who here has actually uesed every mech out TR3058 and TR3060?
By using I mean you have used each one at least once, and if it is an omni mech you have used each config at least once.
I am asking because at last count we have :
TR3025 (original): 58 mechs (not counting the variants talked about in the fluff)
TR3025 (revised) 20 mechs that weren't in the original... actually downgraded TR2750 mechs...so that leads us to...
TR2750: 20 mechs...all Star League machines...
TR3050: (original) We have 16 Clan Omnis and for the IS we have:79 mechs, this includes some from TR2750, some not all. And the ones from the Dragoon's Sourcebook
TR3050: (revised) Here we have Clan mechs totaling 16 Omnis. Then we have 101 Inner Sphere mechs that combines mechs form the TR2750 and TR3025, plus the ones out of the Dragoons Sourcebook.
TR:3055 (original) For the Clans we have 17 non-Omnis (includes the IICs) plus 4 omnis...for a total of 21. The IS has 38 NEW mechs.
TR3055 (revised) Don't own it...but seeing how they pulled the IIC pictures, the numbers go down for the Clan...
TR3058: 18 mechs for the Clan, mixed on type...(Omni/Second Line) and 37 more for the IS.
Grand total BEFORE TR3060:
408 Mechs...this doesn't take into account any of the Variants OR Alternate Configs for the Omnimechs.
Then we get TR3060 which gives us 26 NEW Clan mechs again mixed on Types. And 30 NEW IS mechs...some are from the FMs some are not...
Now we have a new TR coming out...so my other question is are we ever going to get the chance to be able to get to know the other 350 plus mechs as well as we did the original 58 mechs? In other words is the mech production going to slow down enough so we can actually have a chance to USE all the mechs as well as we have the originals?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
03/08/02 02:47 AM
209.202.47.12
|
Did you take into account designs which were simply upgrades of pre-existing designs? I haven't really looked through any TRO past 3050, so I'm not sure how many of those designs re simply upgrades. Anyway, that should decrease the count a little, since many of the upgrades remain very true to the original design. OTOH, some of the designs get completely reworked (Charger, Banshee...)
I could see a dedicated player getting intimately familiar with the 3050 designs, IS or Clan, possibly both. Beyond that, however, I highly doubt it. I mean, off the top of my head, I could recite the tonnage, speed, weapons loadout, and possibly total armor factor for more than half the 3025 'Mechs. Consequently, given a mission, I could select the best 'Mechs for the job. However, with 300+ designs to choose from, no one could make that choice as confidently, even if they have every last config memorized.
No, I definitely don't think we'll be able know and love the majority of the post-3050 designs, at least to the same degree as my beloved Thunderbolt :-)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Greyslayer
03/08/02 03:38 AM
63.12.141.230
|
Maybe its a case of too many bad mechs in existance. In the presence of a better weighted unit those units (such as Jagermechs in 3025) do not become used and are as such just there to waste paper. Also units that utilise auxillary systems such as Beagle Probe are not that useful so units such as the Dragonfly C are overlooked for the more battle specific Dragonfly A.
So yep there are too many mech types/versions kicking about. It still doesn't stop you guys from making your own though so it can't be that bad.
Greyslayer
|
Cray
03/08/02 06:48 AM
204.245.128.3
|
Of course mech production isn't going to slow - BT is all about designing mechs.
Personally, I think seeing all those models in production is goofy. I'm happy with about 3, not including a few variants.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Nightmare
03/08/02 08:43 AM
194.251.240.107
|
Well, as long as we`re talking pre-3050, the Houses have troubles with modifying production lines. They just have to accept any crappy mech if they want an extra 150 per year.
There can be no other reason for building machines like the
Shadowhawk or Quickdraw.
One would expect, however, that the numbers would go down rapidly once technology becomes available again.
Why would you need more than a few models of mech?
A front-line mech in Medium, Heavy and Assault class.
A scout mech in Light and Medium class.
A fire-support mech in Medium and Heavy class.
Many of these could have the same chassis too, only being
made with different weapon load-outs.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
Cray
03/08/02 09:01 AM
204.245.128.3
|
I agree, though I could skip on the scouts (better done by vehicles) and assault mechs all together.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
BA_Evans
03/08/02 09:52 AM
63.97.240.1
|
Just don't go into a campaign environment without those electronics. Your enemy will run circles around you.
BA Evans
|
Grizzly
03/08/02 09:55 AM
12.108.119.227
|
We don't have to use all the mechs, we have the ability to mix and match and find our favorites. There are many designs that I don't use on a regular basis, simply because I don't like them. There are some (Grasshopper/T-bolt) that I love and use over and over, till some of my friends know what I will pick in a given situation. That's when I often switch out to something new, just to make myself a little more unpredictable. The beauty of all these designs is that there we can pick which ones match our fighting style and use similar styles of mechs that may be newer, but wil still fit our individual styles and tastes.
Yeah, realistically I will never use all of the designs availble, but I like having the massive choices that are out there....
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
|
Bob_Richter
03/08/02 09:56 AM
134.121.247.162
|
Reliability?
Yes, one could rely that whenever you HIT a Sherman, you KILLED it. They didn't call them "ready-light" for nothing.
Numbers, yes. The Sherman was among the worst tanks deployed by anyone in WWII, but it was the most numerous, which ended up making the difference in the end.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
03/08/02 09:57 AM
134.121.247.162
|
>>>Yeah, realistically I will never use all of the designs availble, but I like having the massive choices that are out there.... <<<
That's what Omnimechs are for...
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Cray
03/11/02 03:02 PM
204.245.128.3
|
Pity me? My heavy and medium mechs will be sitting on a cliffside, swinging their foot actuators, munching on popcorn and watching the show as the artillery (which I bought instead of assault mechs) and aerospace (ditto) have their way with the plodding assault mech.
And, of course, any two of my heavies should be able to handle any single assault mech, again making assaults rather pointless when I can get the same results out of heavies.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Nightmare
03/11/02 03:19 PM
194.251.240.107
|
Tanks are also cheap and plentiful
A Banshee 3S may be tough, but it`s painfully slow.
One particular fight my Po tanks and Hetzer assault guns
ripped apart most of an assault lance in a few rounds.
Those aren`t even the best vehicles you can get, hover
tanks are better.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
Cray
03/11/02 03:21 PM
204.245.128.3
|
Yes, vehicles. Combined arms.
My arty is vehicles. The TAG drones that make the arty so useful are vehicles. The cheap-n-numerous MBT sidekicks to my mechs are vehicles. My scouts...well, they're vehicles because they're also the TAG drones.
Gimme an equal price in vehicles over an assault mech any day.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
NathanKell
03/11/02 03:28 PM
24.44.238.62
|
Let alone Regulators.
Man, I love those things...
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
KamikazeJohnson
03/11/02 03:33 PM
209.202.47.12
|
However, assault 'Mechs can be useful in moderation...when supported by lighter, faster units, they can wreak some serious havoc once the forces close to on-board weapon range...
All part of "combined arms"
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Cray
03/11/02 03:37 PM
204.245.128.3
|
Yabbut I can substitute in some guided artillery to deal out exactly the same pain (and more, for the same price!) that those assault mechs are, or use a few more heavies to get the same effects. The guided artillery (and heavy mechs) can also do things the assaults simply cannot.
In short, assault mechs are too specialized, and their specialties can be performed by other, more flexible units.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
KamikazeJohnson
03/11/02 03:52 PM
209.202.47.12
|
I can't argue with you on the cost point, unless you start factoring in repair-vs-replacement cost (assaults tend to live longer than heavies), pilot training (heavier 'Mechs means fewer pilots) and things like that...I might have a case that way...
However, artillery is basically useless in close-combat situations...you don't want to hit your own 'Mechs, and you certainly don't want to use artillery in an urban environment if you want to have any city left after the battle.
You basically have a rock-paper-scissors situation. In general:
Lights rush artillery platforms
Mediums beat up Lights
Heavies beat up mediums
Assaults beat up Heavies
Artillery pummels Assaults
Assault 'Mechs are a poor choice when the enemy fields a lot of artillery and you don't have the means to take out the arty positions, but in straight 'Mech-to-'Mech combat (no arty or arty neutralized) they can be quite effective. Its all a matter of resource management
btw...you'll never catch me fielding an all-assault force (except in a controlled, pre-arranged match), just like you'll never see a navy made up entirely of aircraft carriers or battleships...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Cray
03/11/02 04:07 PM
204.245.128.3
|
My artillery doesn't really come out to play until I have aerospace superiority - it'd just be a waste of equipment.
> I have not seen a 'mech taken down by artillery unless it cannot move, or you are using Arrow IV with TAG, in which case it can still miss
Arrow IV and tube artillery with TAG - you have MaxTech and know about Copperheads, right?
I use a horde of TAG drones. There is no escape. I eat Clan assault trinaries for lunch with the TAG+artillery combo.
>any 2 heavies
I said nothing about just "any" 2 heavy designs. I had some specific ones in mind that could cover a good chunk of assault mech roles while not compromising mobility or cost.
>Obviously you missed the statement about a "well-designed assault".
Go for it, show me your well-designed 100-ton assault mech. Include a price tag.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
03/11/02 04:10 PM
204.245.128.3
|
>However, artillery is basically useless in close-combat situations
Guided artillery is lovely right up to the feet of your mechs. Minimal blast radius, minimal scatter. In cities, I use my big heavies.
>Lights rush artillery platforms
And get destroyed by the TAG-guided artillery several boards short of the artillery unit.
I've been thinking about threat and counter-threat for the artillery idea quite a while. I don't bother with artillery when I don't have aerospace superiority, for example.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
03/11/02 04:12 PM
204.245.128.3
|
By all means, name what you think assault mechs can do I can't fake with artillery and several heavy mechs.
You will see the light. Oh, yes. Even if it takes a Clockwork Orange treatment, you will see the light.
Muahahahahahahahahaahahahaha!!!!
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
03/11/02 04:14 PM
204.245.128.3
|
>unless you start factoring in repair-vs-replacement cost (assaults tend to live longer than heavies), pilot training (heavier 'Mechs means fewer pilots) and things like that...I might have a case that way...
Not unless you're talking about thousands of mechs. The heavies I was thinking of were baby assaults, 75-ton beasts with more staying power than many book assault mechs into the 85-ton range.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
KamikazeJohnson
03/11/02 04:30 PM
209.202.47.12
|
I guess I need a couple qualifyers here 
First, I'm not familiar with MaxTech rules...I play up to level 2 rules only, so I'm arguing from that perspective
Second, I'm familiar with artillery only in a general sense, since my BTech group was never organized enough to really use arty
Anyway, if I understand artillery properly, unguided artillery is somewhat erratic except against a fixed target, while TAG has a range and requires a to-hit roll, which means it can miss. So to neutralize your artillery, an enemy needs to either match your air power, or use recon/pursuit lances to take out your spotters, after which, the Assaults have few worries.
It sounds to me like you put a lot of effort into building a force which specializes in embarrassing Assault lances. However, I'm sure with a lot of thought someone could build a force (mostly fast Mediums, I bet) that could do the same to yours, and which would in turn be eaten alive by a force featuring Assault 'Mechs. Like I said before...rock-paper-scissors
I agree that, contrary to Munchkinville Rule #1, Assaults are not the be-all and end-all of warefare, but they have their uses...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Nightward
03/11/02 04:36 PM
132.234.1.13
|
Too many 'Mechs? Heresy! Burn the apostate devil!
You can never have too many 'Mechs. I doubt that one person would ever use every variant of every 'Mech ever created, but the new 'Mechs add more options to those of us who play specific allegiances. The new 'Mechs also give us a chance to argue about new weapons mixes and design philosophies, without which this board would get very boring, very quickly.
The thing I have an issue with is not the amount of new 'Mechs, but the rate at which they are produced. For a long time, it was all manufacturers could do to meet battle losses, but these days it seems they can create a regiment in 0.000003 seconds. I mean, look at the Capellan Confederation. Hanse Davion smashed them in the Succession Wars, and captured all of their major 'Mech plants. But they managed to go from twenty-odd (I think) to sixty-odd (I think) Regiments in 30-odd years. Granted that the Federated Commonwealth faced the Clans, but with such an expanded manufacturing base the AFFC should have been a lot larger than it was.
Additionally, there is so much variance in unit composition. In modern militaries, we use a handful of weapons systems to simplify logistics. So logically, you would expect each House to have a couple of standard 'Mechs for each weight class and to use specialised designs (like the Spider or Raven) in limited numbers in the elite corps of the Successor States' Armed Forces. But what has happened is that you have up to 20 (or more) designs in the same weight class, some of which are built to do the same job. Add in individual modifications to 'Mechs and the invention of the OmniMech...let's just say I would have a longer career in the unarmoured Infantry than I would in the Quartermaster's corps.
In summation, what happens in the BattleTech universe depends not upon logic (hey, this is a game about 3-storey-tall robot combat vehicles) but upon marketing decisions. FASA (and now FanPro) had to shift their products to survive (but they didn't). They know that if one person in a gaming group buys a product with new rules or 'Mechs in it, the other players will have to also, because otherwise they are disadvantaged (lacking the nifty new stuff).
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
KamikazeJohnson
03/11/02 05:13 PM
209.202.47.12
|
>>Not unless you're talking about thousands of mechs. The heavies I was thinking of were baby assaults, 75-ton beasts with more staying power than many book assault mechs into the 85-ton range. <<
Once again, this requires the "well-designed" qualifier. A good 75-tonner should stomp all over any heavier 'Mechs that tries to move 4/6...the engine just gets far too heavy (and expensive)
A slightly slower 'Mech can mount much more firepower and armor, and actually be comparable cost-wise. But most stock Assaults refuse to admit that :-\
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Cray
03/11/02 05:14 PM
12.91.128.206
|
Embarassing assault mechs is strictly a side effect. The goal was to destroy Clan units irrespective of speed, tonnage, or general bad assedness without requiring a superior tonnage in cutting edge technology Inner Sphere mechs.
All you need to know about artillery is in the BMR. MaxTech just adds guided rounds for non-Arrow IV artillery and drone tech. Drone tech is a real enabler - it lets me put a bunch of cheap, inexpensive TAG units on the battlefield without risking pilots. However, if you don't care about risking pilots, this can all be done under L2 tech.
>while TAG has a range and requires a to-hit roll, which means it can miss
I put a lot of TAGs on the target, 4 per turn. If the target numbers look bad, I just aim at the hex. A company of guided artillery shells still adds up with that 5pts of area of effect damage.
>or use recon/pursuit lances to take out your spotters
Let them. I have 4 drones per artillery vehicles (a company therefore has 48), and each drone is about 100,000 C-bills - a few tons of Artemis LRM ammo, for example. They're designed as expendable, disposable drones. They try to stay at 10 hexes from their targets, putting them in medium range of just about every weapon (including their TAG, but oh well) and move like bats out of hell, being 6-ton VTOLs. Hitting them is usually difficult even with Clan pulse large lasers and TCs though, when they are hit, they die. They have no armor.
Mediums, assaults, lights, tanks, whatever. The drones can find and catch any ground unit and I can risk them in droves to guide in that artillery.
To keep the artillery safe or for when I can't use it, I use a mixed force of medium and heavy mechs and mid-weight MBTs that can just about pace either unit.
Unfortunately, enemy aerospace superiority is a bad thing. I don't think I can give enough anti-air defense to keep heavy fighters from getting through and having their way with the artillery or worse the drone command vehicles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
03/11/02 05:17 PM
12.91.128.206
|
>A slightly slower 'Mech can mount much more firepower and armor, and actually be comparable cost-wise.
Yes. And in an all-mech situation, I suddenly rediscover a love for 3/5 assault mechs.
In a combined arms situation, 75-ton mechs are at a beautiful spot for non-XL 4/6/4 movement that would let them pace faster ground vehicles and medium mechs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
KamikazeJohnson
03/11/02 05:28 PM
209.202.47.12
|
hehe...That's pretty much my attitude...average-speed heavies, a few slower Assaults for sheer firepower. IMO, the key to getting value out of Assault 'Mechs is to use them sparingly to augment close-quarter troops. The Munchkin tactic of going all-Assault is simply wasteful.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
raven
03/11/02 05:32 PM
64.12.96.206
|
I have to agree I have seen the "I've got a Spider on my Atlases back get it off, get it off" routine so many times. People in Assualt mech think they are unstoppable. But it is fun when your friends are used to you playin mediums and fast heavies, and then you thow an assualt in the mix and give them a royal smackdown.
|
Greyslayer
03/11/02 05:57 PM
63.12.141.66
|
75 tons? In Marik that is classed as an Assault mech .
Greyslayer
|
Greyslayer
03/11/02 06:05 PM
63.12.141.66
|
Do you ignore the level 3 rules that are not to your advantage or something? You would need super-elite drones with weapon specialisation TAG just to have a chance on alot of Lights using most of the level 3 rules. All the lights would have to do is Evade up until they get to your artillery then blast them to nothingness. Now lets see base 5 I'd say for gunnery, plus a movement modifier of say +2 (if your using vtol drone (drones BS!!!) which means +1 for cruise +1 for being a vtol) then a minimum of +4 usually +5 or +6 for movement/evading and you have a very boring scenario. Afterall once the Artillery are taken out what combat method exists for the TAG drones?
Greyslayer .... been there smited that silly ploy.
|