Is this a Mismatch?

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Karagin
03/26/02 03:29 PM
63.173.170.92

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Is this a mismatch based on BV?

Kurtia force:
DRG-N Dragon
CP-10-Z Cyclops
CPLT-C1 Catapult
TBT-5N Trebuchet
All warriors 5/4 for skills.
Total BV:3,946

Dragoons:
HOP-4B Hoplite
WLF-1 Wolfhound
All warriors 2/1
Total BV: 1,700


Yes!
No!
Who Cares.




Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll

Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
03/26/02 03:49 PM
204.245.128.3

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My choice in the poll would've been "I'm not sure," had it been there. Otherwise I lean toward "yes," but not as definitively as you did, Zippy.

2/1 pilots in a Wolfhound (nice) and a Hoplite (bleh) should be able to give a lance of any regular (4/5) mechwarriors a run for their money. With that gunnery, their weapons are essentially all pulse lasers. In theory, they should be very good tacticians, too, though that's distinctly player-limited.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
03/26/02 04:02 PM
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Just trying to make sure I am on the right track that's all...plus I was hoping someone would have a worse case scenario...where a battle was BV based like this one and still be a mismatch...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightward
03/26/02 04:15 PM
132.234.1.13

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This depends heavily on the terrain. If there are a lot of blind alleys and canyons where visibility is limited, and the Dragoons can take advantage of the minimum range modifiers on every weapon in the Draconis force except for Medium Lasers and the Cyclops' A/C-20, and the Dragoons can ambush the Dracos, it might almost be fair. However, the Dragoons have only 1/2 the numbers-and 1/2 the BVs of the Draconis force.

Scenario special rules and/or weather conditions may also alter proceedings.

Since all the Kuritan 'Mechs are relatively fast, the Dragoons would be slaughtered in open field battle.

BTW: the Dragoons do not field the Wolfhound; in 3025, I think only Danial Allard had one, and after that it was exclusive to the Lyran Commonwealth and the Kell Hounds.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Karagin
03/26/02 04:19 PM
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Well this an offical battle out of the 4th War Battlepack...so it's as offical as you get...and I do think the Dragoons had Wolfhounds, there are in their sourcebook...

Terrain and such doesn't effect BV, so it can not change the fact that BV in this case, an likely in others, has failed to make and even battle that gives both sides the change to win. Right now the out come favors the Kurtians...3 games out 5 as base for this opinion.

And I have been in this battle, played it two months back, and the out come was slaughter for the Kurtians...the Dragoons went down with only taking out the Trebuchet...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightward
03/26/02 04:32 PM
132.234.1.13

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I know that terrain does not alter BV, but it does alter the way 'Mechs are used and how the battle runs. 'Mechs with a lot of short-range weaponry (like the Dragoons) will do better on a map with tight terrain that favours close assualts. Conversely, on open terrain, where 'Mechs with long-range weapons (the Dragons) will hammer forces that are geared towards close combat. I'd like to see a Berzerker take down a Salamander on a 4-map board...but on a 1-map board, the Berzerker will flatten anything in its path.

Another factor is player skill. The very best of players will win no matter what. I have no doubt whatsoever, given an even run of luck, that Scott (Greyslayer) and I would take forever to play this one out, and in the end he would win by virtue of greater skill. After much cursing, sweating, and pawing through the rulebooks Steve Nelson would steamroll me with either force.

And as I said, scenario rules can add a whole new dimension. Can the Dragoons lay minefields? Are the Draconis forces damaged? Is there a time limit? Do the Dragoons have to escape the board? As part of a scenario pack, I would expect there be a greater goal behind this battle...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
CrayModerator
03/26/02 04:46 PM
12.78.124.93

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Do the BVs factor in piloting skill, Karagin? I'm not familiar enough with BV to recognize that offhand.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
03/26/02 06:19 PM
63.173.170.88

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That is the correct BV and I asked Randal about it he said all the battles in the Battlepack were BV based and both side could win in each of them.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 06:20 PM
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While all that can make the battle interesting, it doesn't change the fact the offical system used to make the battle is messed up and leds to mismatches like this.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 06:22 PM
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No, the idea of BV is to get a balance system to have a battle so as one side is not crushing the other each and every time. This offical scenario fails to do that.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 06:23 PM
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Not to my knowledge. If they do it still is not enough to balance this one out...there is a 2200 point difference between the two forces...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 06:42 PM
63.173.170.53

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Once more since you didn't catch it the first time, this is a BV based scenario, and according to the Line Developer and the one who had a hand in making the Battlepack, this a balanced scenario...it shows that the BV is messed up since there is no way this is balanced for the Dragoon side, even with their god like skills.

So it is a failing of the BV system that is key here.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 06:59 PM
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Right can of hard for me to do the math wrong when I cut and pasted the BV numbers to a spread sheet and let Excel do the math...

You feel this is not a case of BV being a problem, fine, then up in the poll vote as to relfect that.

Thanks for giving us your take on this topic.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
03/26/02 07:01 PM
12.91.138.111

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And, hey, sometimes scenarios turn out that way.

After all, every general who hates writing home those "Dear Mr. & Mrs. X, I regret to inform you..." letters knows the saying, "Fair fights are for suckers."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
03/26/02 07:06 PM
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I understand that, but to say the BV system is perfect is IMHO an understatment that is akin to saying it's fair for a Clan Mad Cat to take on a Stinger...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 07:08 PM
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Ok.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 07:11 PM
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That is the actually BV, no adjustments or anything else done to them. You can check it your self with HMPro or one of the rules books that list BV...the number I gave for each side is the combine BV for all the mechs...I did not change or fudge any of the number, so if you don't feel they are correct then I suggest you look them up and double check for yourself.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 07:22 PM
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You have the pilot skills or should up in the main posting...the Dragoons are 2/1 for both pilots and the Kurtians are 5/4 for their warriors...the two sets of number still don't make much of an imporvment to balance things out....which is what I am getting at.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 09:59 PM
206.27.48.9

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***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***

Ok, I know this scenario pack rather well and what you have just done here is dishonest and wrong. And I am calling you on it. I've kept my mouth shut for the last few months watching you deride FanPro and FASA and Classic BattleTech consistantly and now with this scenario pact you just tried to tie Randall into a mistake that you knew darn well he didn't make. Case in point you put the force structure up. And for the Kurtian's you list force that already has the pilot modifiers. You have been playing this game long enough to know that a pilot modifier for gunnery 4/pilot 5 is 1. And any CBT player worth their weight will KNOW the BV modifers for the pilot mods. Yet you left them out. And you want to say that you didn't have a chance to figure them out? Yet you have tried to pass off that this scenario isn't balanced base on the BV shown which you have slighted to prove your point and case.

Here's the REAL story on this scenario.
Page 31 - 33. BattlePack: Fourth Succession War
Scenario 9: At the Gates of Hell.

Attacker: Consists of the elements of the 8th Galedon Regulars.
Command Lance:
Chu-i Takira Oni (5/4), DRG-1N Dragon BV 864 modified x 1.0 = 864
Simone Taylor (5/4), CP-10-Z Cyclops BV 952 modified x 1.0 = 952
Kim Minuro (5/4), CPLT-C1 Catapult BV: 1,165 modified x 1.0 = 1,165
Tiron Jefferson (5/4), TBT-5N Trebuchet BV: 965 modified x 1.0 = 965
The total modified BV: 3,946

Defender: The defenders are two of teh few Wolf's Dragoons from Delta Regiment to survive the fighting on the worlds of Misery and Wapakoneta.

Provisional Lance:
Captain Lucas Kent (2/1), HOP-4B Hoplite BV: 994 modified x 1.75 = 1,740
Lauren Simmons (2/1), WLF-1 Wolfhound BV: 736 modified x 1.75 = 1,288
Total Modified BV: 3,028

Map used: Standard BattleTech Map.

This is scenario is part of the Battle of Corssing fought on the Davion world of Crossing in the Draconis March on 28 September 3029. In which the Dragoon's muster one beleaguered regiment and fought against 4 DCMS regiments in the bowl including a company of ELITE DEST warriors that even Natasha Kerensky couldn't defeat. It's an almost direct representation of the forces that fought. The difference in BV is 936. This scenario is balanced in the light of which it was designed. I've fought this scenario 5 times and 3 times I've one as the Dragons and lost twice. Its a fine scenario that Randall Bills and Dan Grendle spent many hours designing and play testing it.

What you have tried to do is wrong on so many levels. You knew already what this scenario was all about. Yet you have tried to make it look like FASA and claimed that Randall Bills screwed up yet again and made this scenario completely and utterly unbalanced and wrong. Next time, you had better get your facts straight and state BOTH sides of the issue before you attempt to something like this again. And you are a liar if you try to deny it. Because this is exactly what you tried to do here. And if you have a problem with that, you can hit the moderator button and complain about it or send an email to Randall complaining that I called you down for trying to make him out to be something he wasn't.

Karagin
03/26/02 10:23 PM
63.173.170.208

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Thank you Warner but that has NOTHING to do with the topic at all.

Thanks for the input.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 10:29 PM
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More folks feel it's a mismatch, then those that don't and 2 folks don't care. Interesting outlook here...I am hoping more folks vote, since we have well over 500 people here...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 10:38 PM
206.27.48.9

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***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***

In reply to:

"More folks feel it's a mismatch, then those that don't and 2 folks don't care. Interesting outlook here..."


That's because you slighted the numbers. Had you encluded the pilot modifiers for the Dragoon ELITE pilots and LISTED the exact scenario the vote would be different. Yet you have designed this BS vote to cater to your twisted version of the truth. Your poll is usless and will serve nothing but to show you can pervert the numbers to support your own version of the truth, twisted as it is. I see you didn't have the brass ones to post this on CBT.com yet you did on Mordel's and where ever else you decided to put this. I wonder why?

Karagin
03/26/02 10:45 PM
63.173.170.208

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No Warner I did not do any of that, I gave the skills as listed, they are below the mech list for each side. I assumed that folks could read that and figure out that each mech pilot had the skills.

And since this was based on a simple question of is the a mismatch based on the BV nothing else was needed.

You seem to want to turn this into something else, so if that is all you are going to offer, then may I suggest you not take part in this topic to avoid needless comments and the stiring up of flame wars...

As to the reason of not posting this on CBT, your postings have giving me clear understanding of what would be the end results and that is not what I wanted...so again thank you for you input and have a nice day.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Chunga
03/26/02 10:52 PM
65.31.80.235

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In reply to:

No Warner I did not do any of that, I gave the skills as listed, they are below the mech list for each side. I assumed that folks could read that and figure out that each mech pilot had the skills.




This is a blatant lie. You expressly told Zippy and Cray that this was the scenario and that you had calculated everything. You then told them that the BV difference was 2200 when in reality, it was only 900.

This while thread is about something else, your inability to see when you're wrong. It's been happening for years so I guess there's no real reason to hope you start now.
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 10:53 PM
206.27.48.9

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***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***

Nice try Eric. But I've called you on your blantant attempt here to twist something to mean something else. And then you try to implicate someone as the fault of it all. You are wrong yet you are not man enough to admit it. What you have done is something that my 10 year old child would do. It is not something I would expect from a full grown man. Next time research your polls before you fire them off in this manner because what you did is pretty dubious and highly questionable and the sole reason I said something at all. If you can't handle that then quit posting such information as you just did in trying to make someone look bad.

And the reason you didn't post it on CBT's msg board is because you KNEW you'd been eaten alive by the posters there because they wouldn't put up with this kind of garbage.
Karagin
03/26/02 10:54 PM
63.173.170.208

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It is a scenario...how about your read the Battlepack book before you jump in here...that is where it came from and I have not hidden that from anyone...

So if all you are going to is flame me or distrupt this thread, then you are wasting your time and cause nothing but problems for the board as a whole.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/26/02 10:55 PM
63.173.170.208

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I can't believe this, I ask a question of the mismatch of the forces and the BV that is there and you are trying to turn this into something else...

Okay have fun...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 10:59 PM
206.27.48.9

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***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***

You know even my child would admit to making a mistake when confronted with it. What is your problem? Chunga just posted all the proof that states what I tried to say in a nice and quiet manner. You screwed up and then you try to pass this off as a flame war? Heck Eric, I can show you how you reacted the exact same way in the "Autocannon" threads and a few others around here. Not counting the same things over on CBT or Mordel's! Be a man and admit you were wrong and the next time you want to post something like this... DO IT RIGHT! Jeez.. is that so much to ask?
Karagin
03/26/02 11:02 PM
63.173.170.208

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Once more Warner since you won't listen, I asked if based on the given info, if the set up via BV was a mismatch, nothing more. YOU are trying to disrupt this and make it in to something else.

So how about we go back on to the topic or are you going to keep showing us how the offical spokesperson for Battletech treats folks out in the public forums about the game?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 11:13 PM
206.27.48.9

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***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***

Man you have it bad don't you. Ok Eric, I'll leave you here amongst the wolves who can see all the information and your posts that you have made (unless you are going to delete them all to hide the truth like you did on the Off Topic Board) and they can see the truth for themselves. And that you weren't man enough to admit you were wrong. Had you not been, you've not made any of the posts that indicate that you did it all right and what Chunga brought to light.

BTW, You see that disclaimer up there? That means I am posting as my self and NOT in my official capacity as a member of the CBT team. But I see you can't even allow me to do that either. Especially when I stand up to set the record straight that you tried to purposely tried to twist around to make someone and the game system look bad. But hey, that's alright.. I know the truth here.

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