Karagin
03/26/02 03:29 PM
63.173.170.92
|
Is this a mismatch based on BV?
Kurtia force:
DRG-N Dragon
CP-10-Z Cyclops
CPLT-C1 Catapult
TBT-5N Trebuchet
All warriors 5/4 for skills.
Total BV:3,946
Dragoons:
HOP-4B Hoplite
WLF-1 Wolfhound
All warriors 2/1
Total BV: 1,700
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
03/26/02 03:49 PM
204.245.128.3
|
My choice in the poll would've been "I'm not sure," had it been there. Otherwise I lean toward "yes," but not as definitively as you did, Zippy.
2/1 pilots in a Wolfhound (nice) and a Hoplite (bleh) should be able to give a lance of any regular (4/5) mechwarriors a run for their money. With that gunnery, their weapons are essentially all pulse lasers. In theory, they should be very good tacticians, too, though that's distinctly player-limited.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 04:02 PM
63.173.170.16
|
Just trying to make sure I am on the right track that's all...plus I was hoping someone would have a worse case scenario...where a battle was BV based like this one and still be a mismatch...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
03/26/02 04:15 PM
132.234.1.13
|
This depends heavily on the terrain. If there are a lot of blind alleys and canyons where visibility is limited, and the Dragoons can take advantage of the minimum range modifiers on every weapon in the Draconis force except for Medium Lasers and the Cyclops' A/C-20, and the Dragoons can ambush the Dracos, it might almost be fair. However, the Dragoons have only 1/2 the numbers-and 1/2 the BVs of the Draconis force.
Scenario special rules and/or weather conditions may also alter proceedings.
Since all the Kuritan 'Mechs are relatively fast, the Dragoons would be slaughtered in open field battle.
BTW: the Dragoons do not field the Wolfhound; in 3025, I think only Danial Allard had one, and after that it was exclusive to the Lyran Commonwealth and the Kell Hounds.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 04:19 PM
63.173.170.16
|
Well this an offical battle out of the 4th War Battlepack...so it's as offical as you get...and I do think the Dragoons had Wolfhounds, there are in their sourcebook...
Terrain and such doesn't effect BV, so it can not change the fact that BV in this case, an likely in others, has failed to make and even battle that gives both sides the change to win. Right now the out come favors the Kurtians...3 games out 5 as base for this opinion.
And I have been in this battle, played it two months back, and the out come was slaughter for the Kurtians...the Dragoons went down with only taking out the Trebuchet...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
03/26/02 04:32 PM
132.234.1.13
|
I know that terrain does not alter BV, but it does alter the way 'Mechs are used and how the battle runs. 'Mechs with a lot of short-range weaponry (like the Dragoons) will do better on a map with tight terrain that favours close assualts. Conversely, on open terrain, where 'Mechs with long-range weapons (the Dragons) will hammer forces that are geared towards close combat. I'd like to see a Berzerker take down a Salamander on a 4-map board...but on a 1-map board, the Berzerker will flatten anything in its path.
Another factor is player skill. The very best of players will win no matter what. I have no doubt whatsoever, given an even run of luck, that Scott (Greyslayer) and I would take forever to play this one out, and in the end he would win by virtue of greater skill. After much cursing, sweating, and pawing through the rulebooks  Steve Nelson would steamroll me with either force.
And as I said, scenario rules can add a whole new dimension. Can the Dragoons lay minefields? Are the Draconis forces damaged? Is there a time limit? Do the Dragoons have to escape the board? As part of a scenario pack, I would expect there be a greater goal behind this battle...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Cray
03/26/02 04:46 PM
12.78.124.93
|
Do the BVs factor in piloting skill, Karagin? I'm not familiar enough with BV to recognize that offhand.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 06:19 PM
63.173.170.88
|
That is the correct BV and I asked Randal about it he said all the battles in the Battlepack were BV based and both side could win in each of them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 06:20 PM
63.173.170.88
|
While all that can make the battle interesting, it doesn't change the fact the offical system used to make the battle is messed up and leds to mismatches like this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 06:22 PM
63.173.170.88
|
No, the idea of BV is to get a balance system to have a battle so as one side is not crushing the other each and every time. This offical scenario fails to do that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 06:23 PM
63.173.170.88
|
Not to my knowledge. If they do it still is not enough to balance this one out...there is a 2200 point difference between the two forces...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 06:42 PM
63.173.170.53
|
Once more since you didn't catch it the first time, this is a BV based scenario, and according to the Line Developer and the one who had a hand in making the Battlepack, this a balanced scenario...it shows that the BV is messed up since there is no way this is balanced for the Dragoon side, even with their god like skills.
So it is a failing of the BV system that is key here.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 06:59 PM
63.173.170.53
|
Right can of hard for me to do the math wrong when I cut and pasted the BV numbers to a spread sheet and let Excel do the math...
You feel this is not a case of BV being a problem, fine, then up in the poll vote as to relfect that.
Thanks for giving us your take on this topic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
03/26/02 07:01 PM
12.91.138.111
|
And, hey, sometimes scenarios turn out that way.
After all, every general who hates writing home those "Dear Mr. & Mrs. X, I regret to inform you..." letters knows the saying, "Fair fights are for suckers."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 07:06 PM
63.173.170.53
|
I understand that, but to say the BV system is perfect is IMHO an understatment that is akin to saying it's fair for a Clan Mad Cat to take on a Stinger...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 07:08 PM
63.173.170.53
|
Ok.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 07:11 PM
63.173.170.53
|
That is the actually BV, no adjustments or anything else done to them. You can check it your self with HMPro or one of the rules books that list BV...the number I gave for each side is the combine BV for all the mechs...I did not change or fudge any of the number, so if you don't feel they are correct then I suggest you look them up and double check for yourself.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 07:22 PM
63.173.170.53
|
You have the pilot skills or should up in the main posting...the Dragoons are 2/1 for both pilots and the Kurtians are 5/4 for their warriors...the two sets of number still don't make much of an imporvment to balance things out....which is what I am getting at.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 09:59 PM
206.27.48.9
|
***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***
Ok, I know this scenario pack rather well and what you have just done here is dishonest and wrong. And I am calling you on it. I've kept my mouth shut for the last few months watching you deride FanPro and FASA and Classic BattleTech consistantly and now with this scenario pact you just tried to tie Randall into a mistake that you knew darn well he didn't make. Case in point you put the force structure up. And for the Kurtian's you list force that already has the pilot modifiers. You have been playing this game long enough to know that a pilot modifier for gunnery 4/pilot 5 is 1. And any CBT player worth their weight will KNOW the BV modifers for the pilot mods. Yet you left them out. And you want to say that you didn't have a chance to figure them out? Yet you have tried to pass off that this scenario isn't balanced base on the BV shown which you have slighted to prove your point and case.
Here's the REAL story on this scenario.
Page 31 - 33. BattlePack: Fourth Succession War
Scenario 9: At the Gates of Hell.
Attacker: Consists of the elements of the 8th Galedon Regulars.
Command Lance:
Chu-i Takira Oni (5/4), DRG-1N Dragon BV 864 modified x 1.0 = 864
Simone Taylor (5/4), CP-10-Z Cyclops BV 952 modified x 1.0 = 952
Kim Minuro (5/4), CPLT-C1 Catapult BV: 1,165 modified x 1.0 = 1,165
Tiron Jefferson (5/4), TBT-5N Trebuchet BV: 965 modified x 1.0 = 965
The total modified BV: 3,946
Defender: The defenders are two of teh few Wolf's Dragoons from Delta Regiment to survive the fighting on the worlds of Misery and Wapakoneta.
Provisional Lance:
Captain Lucas Kent (2/1), HOP-4B Hoplite BV: 994 modified x 1.75 = 1,740
Lauren Simmons (2/1), WLF-1 Wolfhound BV: 736 modified x 1.75 = 1,288
Total Modified BV: 3,028
Map used: Standard BattleTech Map.
This is scenario is part of the Battle of Corssing fought on the Davion world of Crossing in the Draconis March on 28 September 3029. In which the Dragoon's muster one beleaguered regiment and fought against 4 DCMS regiments in the bowl including a company of ELITE DEST warriors that even Natasha Kerensky couldn't defeat. It's an almost direct representation of the forces that fought. The difference in BV is 936. This scenario is balanced in the light of which it was designed. I've fought this scenario 5 times and 3 times I've one as the Dragons and lost twice. Its a fine scenario that Randall Bills and Dan Grendle spent many hours designing and play testing it.
What you have tried to do is wrong on so many levels. You knew already what this scenario was all about. Yet you have tried to make it look like FASA and claimed that Randall Bills screwed up yet again and made this scenario completely and utterly unbalanced and wrong. Next time, you had better get your facts straight and state BOTH sides of the issue before you attempt to something like this again. And you are a liar if you try to deny it. Because this is exactly what you tried to do here. And if you have a problem with that, you can hit the moderator button and complain about it or send an email to Randall complaining that I called you down for trying to make him out to be something he wasn't.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 10:23 PM
63.173.170.208
|
Thank you Warner but that has NOTHING to do with the topic at all.
Thanks for the input.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 10:29 PM
63.173.170.208
|
More folks feel it's a mismatch, then those that don't and 2 folks don't care. Interesting outlook here...I am hoping more folks vote, since we have well over 500 people here...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 10:38 PM
206.27.48.9
|
***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***
In reply to:
"More folks feel it's a mismatch, then those that don't and 2 folks don't care. Interesting outlook here..."
That's because you slighted the numbers. Had you encluded the pilot modifiers for the Dragoon ELITE pilots and LISTED the exact scenario the vote would be different. Yet you have designed this BS vote to cater to your twisted version of the truth. Your poll is usless and will serve nothing but to show you can pervert the numbers to support your own version of the truth, twisted as it is. I see you didn't have the brass ones to post this on CBT.com yet you did on Mordel's and where ever else you decided to put this. I wonder why?
|
Karagin
03/26/02 10:45 PM
63.173.170.208
|
No Warner I did not do any of that, I gave the skills as listed, they are below the mech list for each side. I assumed that folks could read that and figure out that each mech pilot had the skills.
And since this was based on a simple question of is the a mismatch based on the BV nothing else was needed.
You seem to want to turn this into something else, so if that is all you are going to offer, then may I suggest you not take part in this topic to avoid needless comments and the stiring up of flame wars...
As to the reason of not posting this on CBT, your postings have giving me clear understanding of what would be the end results and that is not what I wanted...so again thank you for you input and have a nice day.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Chunga
03/26/02 10:52 PM
65.31.80.235
|
In reply to:
No Warner I did not do any of that, I gave the skills as listed, they are below the mech list for each side. I assumed that folks could read that and figure out that each mech pilot had the skills.
This is a blatant lie. You expressly told Zippy and Cray that this was the scenario and that you had calculated everything. You then told them that the BV difference was 2200 when in reality, it was only 900.
This while thread is about something else, your inability to see when you're wrong. It's been happening for years so I guess there's no real reason to hope you start now.
|
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 10:53 PM
206.27.48.9
|
***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***
Nice try Eric. But I've called you on your blantant attempt here to twist something to mean something else. And then you try to implicate someone as the fault of it all. You are wrong yet you are not man enough to admit it. What you have done is something that my 10 year old child would do. It is not something I would expect from a full grown man. Next time research your polls before you fire them off in this manner because what you did is pretty dubious and highly questionable and the sole reason I said something at all. If you can't handle that then quit posting such information as you just did in trying to make someone look bad.
And the reason you didn't post it on CBT's msg board is because you KNEW you'd been eaten alive by the posters there because they wouldn't put up with this kind of garbage.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 10:54 PM
63.173.170.208
|
It is a scenario...how about your read the Battlepack book before you jump in here...that is where it came from and I have not hidden that from anyone...
So if all you are going to is flame me or distrupt this thread, then you are wasting your time and cause nothing but problems for the board as a whole.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 10:55 PM
63.173.170.208
|
I can't believe this, I ask a question of the mismatch of the forces and the BV that is there and you are trying to turn this into something else...
Okay have fun...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 10:59 PM
206.27.48.9
|
***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***
You know even my child would admit to making a mistake when confronted with it. What is your problem? Chunga just posted all the proof that states what I tried to say in a nice and quiet manner. You screwed up and then you try to pass this off as a flame war? Heck Eric, I can show you how you reacted the exact same way in the "Autocannon" threads and a few others around here. Not counting the same things over on CBT or Mordel's! Be a man and admit you were wrong and the next time you want to post something like this... DO IT RIGHT! Jeez.. is that so much to ask?
|
Karagin
03/26/02 11:02 PM
63.173.170.208
|
Once more Warner since you won't listen, I asked if based on the given info, if the set up via BV was a mismatch, nothing more. YOU are trying to disrupt this and make it in to something else.
So how about we go back on to the topic or are you going to keep showing us how the offical spokesperson for Battletech treats folks out in the public forums about the game?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 11:13 PM
206.27.48.9
|
***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***
Man you have it bad don't you. Ok Eric, I'll leave you here amongst the wolves who can see all the information and your posts that you have made (unless you are going to delete them all to hide the truth like you did on the Off Topic Board) and they can see the truth for themselves. And that you weren't man enough to admit you were wrong. Had you not been, you've not made any of the posts that indicate that you did it all right and what Chunga brought to light.
BTW, You see that disclaimer up there? That means I am posting as my self and NOT in my official capacity as a member of the CBT team. But I see you can't even allow me to do that either. Especially when I stand up to set the record straight that you tried to purposely tried to twist around to make someone and the game system look bad. But hey, that's alright.. I know the truth here.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 11:17 PM
63.173.170.208
|
Sorry my friend, but the disclaimer don't mean squat...everyone knows who you are and they can see that how you act here and else where is a reflection back on FanPro and Battletech as whole.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightmare
03/26/02 11:20 PM
194.251.240.107
|
At the Gates of Hell, from the 4th Succession War BattlePack.
Kurita force: Attackers
Dragon DRG-1N BV 952
Cyclops CP-10-Z BV 965
Catapult CPLT-C1 BV 1,165
Trebuchet TBT-5N BV 864
Total BV:3,946
Dragoons: Defenders
Wolfhound WLF-1 BV 736 (1,156)
Hoplite HOP-4B BV 994 (1,561)
Total BV: 1,700 (2,717)
In parenthesis are adjusted BV values for high skills.
Gunnery 1, Piloting 2 gets a multiplier of 1,57.
2,717 is certainly less than 3,946, but not hopeless. Besides,
the Dragoons get a Marginal Victory by taking out three Kurita units, which shouldn`t be totally impossible. Kurita can`t get a MV, and only way for either side to get a Decisive Victory is to destroy all enemy units.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 11:22 PM
63.173.170.208
|
Thank you for the info...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightmare
03/26/02 11:24 PM
194.251.240.107
|
NP, but how the hell did you manage to fill two pages while I read my 4th SWBP and sought out the modifiers?
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 11:25 PM
206.27.48.9
|
***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***
Yeah and they will see that I tried to set the record straight. So what. You don't like what I said, here percentor_martial@classicbattletech.com tell Randall that I made you look bad because you tried to make him out to be something he wasn't and show him all the facts here in the posts. Otherwise quit whinning and try to put a poll together in a more proper manner.
|
Karagin
03/26/02 11:26 PM
63.173.170.208
|
Don't know...looking forward to the finial tally of the votes on this...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Warner_Doles
03/26/02 11:29 PM
206.27.48.9
|
***DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion of which has no bearing on anything or is it associated with what I do. Nor am I pressing it on anyone or forcing anyone to believe what I believe in or am I trying to change your beliefs nor am I trying to silence anyone from speaking. I am only sounding off here in posting my very personal opinion on a subject that I would like to talk about. I am forced to put this disclaimer here to avoid anyone’s misinterpretation or to use my words in an adverse way to make me or what I said look bad.***
The modifier for elite pilot skills shown in the book is 1.75. The skills are listed as Pilot/Gunnery (2/1). Apply that and you'll see that the number actually higher and the BV is only different by less then 900.
|
BigCol
03/26/02 11:40 PM
131.181.127.39
|
I think when one is using the BV system, one should use all of it. The BV system does take into account the differences in levels of both the Piloting and Gunnery abilities.
So therefore when one asks if a situation is balanced, one should present all the facts.
And by saying that all players should know the BV system is not correct. I have played the game for 15 years or so, but have never really used the BV system. We go on tonnage really and use 4/5 gun/pilot. Only recently have I really started to look at it. Just to see if I can abuse it really.
Cheers
Col
I don't want the world...
I just want your half...
Ana Ng - They Might be Giants
|
Nightmare
03/26/02 11:40 PM
194.251.240.107
|
Funny. Both TDB and BMD had 1,57.
HMPro has - hmm 1,75. So it`s been changed
at some point then. I stand corrected.
Kurita at 3,946
Dragoons at 3,028
Total difference is 918
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
BigCol
03/26/02 11:44 PM
131.181.127.39
|
Be carefulm of TDB Mike. It does have probs with the maths behind BV.
I will be at TBW on Sunday. Looking forward to it.
Cheers
Col
I don't want the world...
I just want your half...
Ana Ng - They Might be Giants
|
Nightmare
03/27/02 12:01 AM
194.251.240.107
|
I`m not Mike, but thanks anyway. Oh, BMD had the wrong number too.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
BigCol
03/27/02 12:07 AM
131.181.127.39
|
Whoops.
I saw the night part of your name and read no more. Sorry if I caused offense.
Cheers
Col
I don't want the world...
I just want your half...
Ana Ng - They Might be Giants
|
Greyslayer
03/27/02 04:03 AM
63.12.141.86
|
How about just saying what is wrong with the above question quoting your facts for the problem and be done with it? If it was an honest mistake Karagin might own up to it and maybe even thank you for pointing it out...
Such a low personal attack for at the time could've been an honest mistake by Karagin.
Greyslayer
|
Chunga
03/27/02 09:28 AM
156.55.131.250
|
That's the problem, Karagin will never admit he's wrong. Plus, he made this a personal attack against the writers long before us.
|
Karagin
03/27/02 11:43 AM
63.173.170.13
|
His opinion yes, insults and attacks no...and that is all he did here along with his buddy Chunga...if he had posted hey you need to adjust the BV by this number, then explain why and NOT come in with his normal heavy hand tactics then it would have been nothing but his opinion. BUT nope he came in with guns blazing and once again shows that he will go out of his way to destroy something he doesn't like.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Chunga
03/27/02 11:45 AM
156.55.131.250
|
If you hadn't completely misrepresented the facts in the first place, we wouldn't have had to call you on it.
|
Karagin
03/27/02 01:20 PM
63.173.170.203
|
That is where it's from the 4th War Battlepack...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
novakitty
03/27/02 02:15 PM
209.242.100.230
|
About 60 replies to one question. The phrasing of the question has been debated, and the original poster has been personally insulted by people who I have not seen post often.
Flame wars are easier and more common than I first thought...
(Note: this is the only reply I intend to make at this post, so feel free to respond in a flaming manner if you feel that you have been specifically insulted by this post, I will read them and laugh)
meow
|
KhanJackalMoreau
03/27/02 02:19 PM
208.140.76.57
|
Hey.
Stop arguing. Cool?
Now more than ever. (c)
|
KhanJackalMoreau
03/27/02 04:04 PM
208.140.76.57
|
This wasn't a flame war. This was a bunch of people with history acting out the tired moves of long dead ancient flamewars.
It's true, it's pretty bad.
But see, it doesn't have to be this way.
We could talk about Spiders.
I like Spiders. 8/12/8. Fast. I like.
Now more than ever. (c)
|
novakitty
03/27/02 05:55 PM
209.242.100.230
|
My favorite targets (who were playing some lucky IS attempted mercs) had an easy job, two personally designed mechs (theirs) vs. two lances of lvl 1 IS light mechs. Every part of the opposition died as expected except the Spider, which almost killed the 100 ton peice of munch that one of them designed. The salvage and the pay for the job barely covered fixing that monstrosity.
meow
|
BigCol
03/27/02 06:27 PM
210.49.120.93
|
Spiders are fun. I like the version with the Flamer. I suppose that just shows the pyro tendencies I have. LoL.
Cheers
Col
I don't want the world...
I just want your half...
Ana Ng - They Might be Giants
|
Greyslayer
03/27/02 06:59 PM
63.12.147.43
|
On other boards maybe. Sarna hasn't had these levels of problems for awhile. I could still back Karagin with other facts for a disparity of BV in this system though. If you remember in one of the earlier Fasa battlechats held by Nystal on the Fasa site a couple of years back there was a statement to the effect that BV does not take into account superior numbers (but it does take into account superior gunnery and piloting). This would add to a 'complete understanding of bv' as you and others have said earlier not just understanding the mere numeric values of said units.
If he had made a personal attack against an author on another board KEEP IT THERE. I believe Warner's CBT has said it well enough with keeping problems from other boards on those boards. I believe you follow that mantra, so only call Karagin on it and don't go 'but he did it on another board thus allowing me to muddy this one'.
I know most of the time Karagin can be petty, there is no need to stoop to that level or do a pre-emptive strike either. Let tha facts fall as they are and let those that post on this board sift them out by now most of those who post here should know that Karagin is one-sided on nearly everything.
Greyslayer
|
raven
03/27/02 07:34 PM
68.81.155.30
|
they do but not in his post
|
raven
03/27/02 07:45 PM
68.81.155.30
|
we can have flamewars with them, that would be cool.
|
Nightward
03/27/02 09:03 PM
132.234.1.13
|
I thought your point was that one side had half the BVs of the other anyway...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
03/27/02 09:05 PM
63.173.170.139
|
I believe I said that...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
03/27/02 09:08 PM
132.234.1.13
|
So one side has a clear advantage (twice the numbers, over twice the tonnage, and twice the BV) of the other and you wonder why it is a mismatch?
When BVs do not prevail, logic should. Obviously, the Kuritan force has the advantage. However, skillful play and a host of other factors can minimise or remove that advantage. It depends upon the players, map, and luck involved.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
03/27/02 09:26 PM
63.173.170.139
|
That was my point, sadly this got turn into flame war at some point...the bottom line is the BV and numbers clearly favor the Kurtians...and I agree that it is possible for them to lose, but it would take almost a green player to have that happen IMHO.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
03/27/02 09:32 PM
132.234.1.13
|
Come on, Karagin...you knew when you posted this it would lead to a flame war, and your deliberatly flammatory comments elsewhere in this thread only added to the problem. Whilst I enjoy watching the pyrotechnics as much as you obviously do, try to be a bit more diplomatic...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
03/27/02 09:41 PM
63.173.170.139
|
No sorry I didn't think this would cause an uproar...in fact it was posted to see if anyone agreed with me. I am sorry others felt that they need to flame and attack because they didn't like how the topic was setup.
But up until they posted, no one was flamming or attack anyone. It was decent set of questions and comments all in a normal debate.
I don't know how you got the idea that this was anything more, but you are wrong on that one. The topic and poll was simple set of questions, you looked over the info given, and voted. Nothing about that suggests anything else was going on.
Up until the posting by Warner and his way of posting it, NOTHING was going on to suggest a flame war was in the making...and as it has been pointed out there are better ways to tell someone hey you forgot this part or that and so if you are going to lay blame make sure you lay it equally or don't lay it at all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
03/27/02 10:01 PM
132.234.1.13
|
Karagin, I will not be drawn into a slanging match. If you remember, I quite often take your part in these sort of debates.
Even if you did not intend to make this into a flame war, your...ah...aggresively militant way of expressing your opinions and your attacks upon both Warner and Chunga aggravated the situation.
Granted, the lower half of this thread is conducted with the civility and manners that are a defining characteristic of us BattleTech gamers, but the top half is, on the whole, much more confrontational. Warner and Chunga were both needlessly aggresive towards you, but you responded in such a way as to inflame the situation.
The biggest issue they have was with the fact you neglected to mention the BV modifiers for pilots (which, yes, we should have spotted for ourselves) and the fact that you did not mention the special rules for the scenario. If you have read Wolves on the Border, and the background for the scenario, you will know the situation in which that scenario is played out. Takashi Kurita was insulted by the fact that the Dragoons did not want to contract for more training of the DCMs, and doubly so when they wanted to leave. He threw wave after wave of first the Ryuken, and then other regular regiments, at the Dragoons, hoping to either smash the Dragoons so badly they would have to surrender and be absorbed into the DCMS, or at the very least damage them so badly the Dragoons would be useless to the next House that was hiring them (IIRC, the Federated Suns). The Dragoon forces are being set up to loose in that scenario. Only a good player will be able to win using the Dragoon forces. You (I prefer to believe by mistake, others have their own opinions) did not mention the BV modified pilots, nor the fact that the BV gap is, in fact, substantially lower than as you presented it as.
If you are tring to point out that the BV system is inherently flawed, using the rules as written, then you are preaching to the converted. In some cases, you are preaching to the Inquisition that is activelky hunting down those abberant BV users and punishing them for their heresy. The BV system works only between players of equal footing (skill-wise) and can be unbalanced by other factors.
There is no way that the Dragon and Dragoon forces can be considered equal for this game (by BV, by CV, by tonnage, or by inspection), and nobody is disagreeing with you there. They disagree with your comments. Attacking or defending a person is much different to attacking or defending their opinions and comments, and it is a line which you have crossed. Admit you made a mistake; the fight with Warner and Chunga will end. Refuse, and continue to mindlessly sledge them, and the situation will perpetuate itself.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
03/27/02 10:09 PM
63.173.170.139
|
First, I gave the skills as listed, they are there for both side, second, I wasn't interested in anything else beyond the idea of is it a mismatch with given BV...adjusted or not, the point was vailid.
You are correct I could have handled the crap from Warner better, very true and I am sorry I lost my cool. But I am sick and tired of him and his little buddies thinking their word is the last word that can be said about anything and that they know all there is to know about this game thus we all should bow before them and in awe and not comment on things they have spoken on.
Third I did not hide the fact that I got the info from and I clearly told folks where it came from when asked. Was I wrong for going off on those two upstarts? Yes I was and for that I am sorry. But I felt I had a vaild point and was looking for other folk's comments and ideas.
And to clear up the misunderstanding I have read the novel and the scenario many times over and that I think is a mute point.
I can admit I left out the victory condintions since I haven't seen anything that suggest they play a role in the BV of the forces...so to me they were not needed. For the most part scenarios usally given you some kind of victory condintions of taking out the whole enemy force and thus that is almost a standard out come for some folks games.
If I made any mistake then I am sorry, I didn't have any other motives in mind other then to get folk's opinions on the topic as stated above...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Bob_Richter
03/28/02 03:35 AM
134.121.247.162
|
Kurita: 3946
Dragoons: 3028
This is according to HMPRO.
It is CLEARLY a BV mismatch.
And it's a battlefield mismatch too, no commentary on the BV system here.
Furthermore, the WLF-1 isn't a very dragoony 'Mech. More of a Kell Hound Special.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Nightmare
03/28/02 10:24 AM
194.251.240.107
|
Well, 4-against-3 isn`t exactly BAD odds, all things considered. Most commanders in modern (2002 AD) armies
prefer to have at least 3-1 before attacking. That`s the minimum edge you want, in order to win without taking crippling losses.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
Nightmare
03/29/02 12:32 AM
194.251.240.107
|
4-3 in BV, 4-2 in number of units. The Dragoons will have to move around a bit to keep the Kuritist from trapping them, but
it shouldn`t be impossible.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
|
Bob_Richter
03/29/02 07:50 AM
134.121.157.14
|
As always in Battletech, tactics and luck will be decisive. The Dragoons just need more of both to win.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|