novakitty
06/14/02 12:02 AM
209.242.100.230
|
It is amazing what a little brainwashing can do. Objectivity destroyed in favor of agreeing with everyone else.
In a discussion of politics, I was harshly attacked when I suggested that a representative govenment might not be the best (due to typically short life spans) when I mentioned the word "dynasty" they really went out of control.
meow
|
Nightward
06/14/02 12:12 AM
132.234.251.211
|
Nope. I'm pretty much the most stubborn person you will ever meet.It is just that when a battle is hopeless, I do not fight it. It is nort worth my time or effort. I have my opinion; others are welcome to theirs, so long as they don't try to force it upon me.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Greyslayer
06/14/02 01:27 AM
137.172.211.9
|
Waste is not necessarily death. Someone who spent most of their life learning say science to become a beach bum is a waste.
Waste = leftover resources after final product is produced.
Sure not all are tested in the Trial of Position but neither are those that tested only fight each other. Given as they are to have weapons that chop heads off ... how often does a tried and tested warrior get himself killed from a lucky shot from a 'testing' cadet. Such a system is wasteful (especially given that this can happen to 3 such people against the same target in the same 'trial')....
Before this though physical trials such as hand-to-hand combat, small arms and survival training are taught. Reading the first and second of the Aidan Pryde novels help give a good insight into their methods of training and just what can happen to those during trials and tests.
Now don't get me started on Bloodname trials....
Greyslayer
|
Greyslayer
06/14/02 01:28 AM
137.172.211.9
|
Of course, who else but the Lyrans and Clans would a merc make a killing off salvaging overpriced hulks  .
Greyslayer
|
Greyslayer
06/14/02 01:46 AM
137.172.211.9
|
Actually you have been saying over and over that you were leaving this thread ... anytime soon would be good ;P.
Those of us thinking the clans in essence are wasteful are putting and are prepared to put facts on the table. I've seen little of this from our opposition on this topic. Maybe they would prefer conflict to discussion?
Greyslayer
|
Cray
06/14/02 06:41 AM
64.83.29.242
|
>But he *wanted* it that way.
I know. That doesn't change my last post in the least, though.
Nicholas's idea of a model Star League society wasn't necessarily the best, or even a contender for the "sorta kinda remotely okay idea" category. What he set up squandered the isolation, incredible resources, technology, and peaceful (after the Exodus Civil War) setting the exiles had in the name of producing some good warriors. The tradeoff was not worthwhile.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Spartan
06/14/02 10:12 AM
172.166.145.220
|
>>The demilitarized SLDF folks were quite ready to accept any "peaceful" rule, including Nicholas's.
But what about the non-demilitarized ones? The special chosen few who got to be warriors?
But you are right they shouldn't have been fighting over their resources, they *should* have shared and explored for more that would have been more cost effective and less people would die. But they didn't, and therefore must fight over limited resources.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
|
Spartan
06/14/02 10:24 AM
172.166.145.220
|
About your rant about what the clans did originally and what they do now can be anwsered by the title of this particular offshoot of the thread: Clan implementation is still screwy.
As for what the Kuritans did, or the Liao's, or even the US they're all related arguments but immaterial to this particular discussion. If wanted to we could argue all day about the unethical actions of *every* government that ever existed in reality or fiction.
>>Nobody is perfect, and besides-this is fiction.
You're right no one is perfect. Perfection is a journey not a destination. And it being fiction is what makes it fun to argue about, we're not discussing something that touched, and killed, real people but fictions of our imaginations. Hence, we hurt no one. And at any rate these long threads are often the most fun arguments. And we've been doing this for years. At least as long as I've been coming to the board.
>>Who cares?
I do.
>>Read another book.
I just finished the latest Star Wars novel. And now I'm starting on "Debt of Honor."
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Edited by Spartan (06/14/02 01:51 PM)
|
Bob_Richter
06/14/02 01:21 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>The Clans go to war over that stuff.<<<
ONLY when the matter can't be settled peacefully, which is when war happens in real life, too.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
06/14/02 01:24 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>1) That the Clan trial system minimizes waste misses the forest for the trees: the Clans never needed to be separated into feuding factions to begin with. If Nicholas hadn't artificially separated the Clans, they would never waste resources on trials to get military secrets from each other because there wouldn't be "others." <<<
And there wouldn't be any military secrets. Soon there wouldn't be any military. Useless government programs die fairly quickly.
>>>2) No, trials are not the most efficient way. Consider the price of the destruction of a star of omnis in a trial vs. lawyer fees negotiating or suing for rights to a technology. 50 million C-bills in trashed labor, resources, energy and factory space vs. 1 million C-bills in salaries. <<<
The destruction of a star of Omnis is NEVER complete, nor does a trial even USUALLY involve that much force.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
06/14/02 01:27 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>Yeah. Nicholas was a very sick person who set up an artificial environment - 20 "nations" - and set them at odds, then encouraged them to fight to settle matters. A criminal waste. <<<
That depends. If your objective is to create an army ever-ready for war, there is little better way to do it.
That was clearly Kerensky's intention.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Cray
06/14/02 05:40 PM
12.91.138.149
|
>Soon there wouldn't be any military
Right. Nations have never found needs to maintain militaries for decades in peacetime.
>The destruction of a star of Omnis is NEVER complete
Irrelevant. The material loss far outclasses the cost of peaceful resolutions like lawsuits. Expend a ton of AC ammo, you've spent the annual income of a wealthy laborer. Wreck a gyro, you've spent the annual income of 20 laborers.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
06/14/02 05:46 PM
12.91.138.149
|
Ri-i-i-ight. Clan Coyote tried every peaceful venue to conquer the 5 planets it grabbed after developing the omnimech.
Many other cultures - the US, for example - wouldn't even go to war when peaceful means of resolving, say, a dispute between two mining companies over rights to a mine, or two drug companies over rights to a drug patent, or two states over their exact borders (well, not in 220 years or so, anyway).
The Clans were set up to artificially promote "international" conflicts that never needed to happen in the first place.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
06/14/02 05:50 PM
12.91.138.149
|
>That depends. If your objective is to create an army ever-ready for war, there is little better way to do it
There are many better ways. Avoiding the artificial division of SLDF exiles into feuding Clans for one and just running regular training exercises (live fire and not). Live fire exercises are hardly more stupid than what the Clans do and they avoid wasteful conflict over Kerensky's hankerchief and the like.
And, y'know, Kerensky's intention wasn't necessarily a good one.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
06/14/02 05:54 PM
12.91.138.149
|
>But what about the non-demilitarized ones? The special chosen few who got to be warriors?
800, less combat losses in the Pentagon campaign? 800 people out of 3 million survivors? Let them play with their mechs and tanks. 3 million people can support a militia of 800. A small militia with some brute military force would be good for keeping the peace after the civil war, too.
>But they didn't, and therefore must fight over limited resources
There's no "must" in there. If the Clans held to their "waste not" ideal, they would've started conserving resources by not fighting at all, leading back to the explore/colonize phase.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Nightward
06/14/02 08:39 PM
210.50.60.205
|
Hmm. I came off a lot more confrontational than I intended. Many apologies.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Spartan
06/14/02 10:03 PM
172.140.62.207
|
none needed.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
|
Nightward
06/15/02 06:03 AM
210.50.62.226
|
OK. My other responses to this thread have either been:
a). Rambling.
b). Incoherent.
c). Weak, or
d.) All of the above.
So now I will attempt to structure an argument that is coherent, concise, and strong. Here goes nothing:
“For a society that "abhors waste", the Clans are masters at making sure that, once a battle is begun, there will be the maximum possible destruction...of both sides! This comes from two aspects:
1. Bidding
2. Zellbrigen.”
I will reply to the bidding part first. What you have missed in your bidding rant is the part that precedes it; the Ritual of Challenge. This is obviously based on medieval challenges; the challenger declares his (or her) lineage, declares what they want as isorla (which could be anything from wanting to win an argument to Annihilating an entire Clan), and invites their opponent to meet them at a specified time and place. Choice insults are usually hurled at this time. The challenged party can either decline the challenge, bringing a loss of honour (not something you would want as a Clan Warrior) or accept the challenge and declare the weapons to be used. If it is a military campaign, at this time the challenged party will declare the forces they will defend with. The attackers then go away and bid for the honour of leading the attack. The object of bidding is to come as close to having the minimal force to win. This is a test of both courage and ingenuity. The very process of bidding reduces waste by ensuring that the best commander for the job wins it (or at least, if not the best commander, the one with the biggest balls, so to speak) and should have little trouble dealing with their opponent. The best commander will loose fewer warriors in the ensuing combat, and should know how to get where they are going with minimum fuss. The very action of attacking with less than all available forces reduces waste; how much more fuel ad time is required to prepare and move a Galaxy if a single Star can do the job? A Galaxy on the move would be a good object lesson in power to an opponent, but if you can do it with a Star, what’s the point? This situation can be demonstrated early on Operation revival, where the Wolf Clan would send in one or two Trinaries to take out an Inner Sphere regiment. Twenty-odd OmniMechs could destroy four times as many Inner Sphere machines, so why mobilise three Clusters (roughly numerically equal) to do the job?
In short, attacking with minimal forces reduces *POTENTIAL* waste, not actual, physical waste. It is up to the individual commanders to minimise waste of personnel and equipment; this is not part of the bidding procedure and to attack bidding as wasteful is simply missing the point.
Now, on to Zellbrigen. No-one doubts that a WarShip orbitally bombarding the enemy, or ganging up 20:1 will reduce the time spent in the fight, but what exactly is the point? Imagine how much material is wasted f a WarShip bombards the target? First, you have the energy or ammunition used in the barrage, then you have the damage done to the target. As well as flattening any inconveniently placed, nearby mountain ranges, you have just obliterated 'Mechs, Elementals etc that you could have collected as salvage. And if you missed and set a forest on fire, or smashed a major city by mistake, what then? You have to waste more resources putting the fire out or rebuilding the city, and then you have to expend more effort getting your newly-acquired civilians to trust you. That is a lot of effort to go to. And in the ganging-up example, is it not likely that when the enemy falls, that a missile cluster or AutoCannon volley will miss the target? Could not it have been used later? Yes.
So, is it not better if like attacks like? One 'Mech against one 'Mech. One WarShip against another WarShip. Again, in this situation it is up to the individual warriors to limit the wasteful expenditure of material; the process of Zellbrigen is already limiting waste by insuring that inappropriate force is not used.
This has the side effect of promoting personal honour, and allows Warriors better chances at gaining the chance to compete for promotions and Bloodrights.
Another thing that was brought up is the Sibko/Warrior Training methods used by the Clans. It is true that not every Warrior that is created, or every Freebirth that tests into the Warrior caste will pass their training. Is this not the case with every education system? If a Warrior fails, they have done so. The system has not failed them. They have failed in the system. I seriously doubt that a single failure would be enough to warrant expulsion from a Sibko, even in the Blood Spirits. Warriors would be given extra chances. They would be allowed to re-take the test after extra training. They would be placed on probation. I seriously doubt they would be expelled from Warrior training for incorrectly spelling words in an essay. Expulsion would be a last resort, used if a cadet consistently fails tests or does something that required truly inspired stupidity to achieve-such as demolishing their Khan’s HQ with a mis-placed missile volley.
So only a handful of cadets make it through. This is the case everywhere. In today’s world, not everyone finishes High School. Fewer go onto tertiary education. Even fewer go on to earn post-graduate degrees. How many people have Ph.D.s? Not many. Why? It’s hard to earn one. You have to be one of the very best, most dedicated people in your field. Would that not be the case within warrior training as well? I believe so.
Now, on to the Trial of Position. Some Clans (the Steel Vipers) require their cadets to square off to even get into the Trial. When they are there, they face one 'Mech of a lighter class than theirs, one of the same class, and one heavier. Some Clans (again, the Vipers and Spirits) require their cadets to face heavier machinery. Defeating one opponent earns you the post of Warrior, two the position of Star Commander, and so on and so forth. Other sub-Castes face similar challenges. There is a very real chance that a warrior or cadet could die. Same as in a real fight. In this way, the Clan insures that the very best cadets become Warriors. To become a Warrior means that you are better than a Warrior who already serves in the Touman. If a Cadet falls, it means they could not improve the Clan by joining the caste. And if a Warrior dies, it means that they were probably fading- I mean, they got killed by an eighteen-year-old cadet.
Granted, if a Warrior dies or a cadet fails, all of the material and time taken to get them there is wasted. But let’s assume that the person who lived through the fight was just 10% better than the one that did not (not unreasonable, since the other failed.). We will assume that that warrior will fight once a month (not unreasonable, given the tensions between the Clans) and that their career will last ten years (the average “lifespan” of a Warrior). This means that they will use *1,200%* less ammunition in their career. Their 'Mech will require *1,200%* less repairs. They will cause *1,200%* less loss of life for their unit members. And they will gain *1,200%* more objectives for their Clan. Stack all those together, and you see why having a slightly better Warrior is a good thing. I’m no mathematician, but that’s how I see things working. If I’m right, though, that is a lot of waste saved by that warrior. Now imagine how many Warriors serve in a Clan Touman. Then think about how many Warrior generations have served. How much waste has been saved then?
Further testing out for positions only reinforces this. Only the best gain command rights, so this further minimises wasteful loss of material and life.
Another Clan feature that was attacked was the Trial of Bloodright. Death and dismemberment is a real risk here. But it ensures that only the very best Warriors earn their Bloodnames.. Since Warrior training improves the quality of each generation, it makes sense to give them the very best of the past generation. Each slight improvement in quality reduces potential waste.
In sum, the Way of the Clans is geared to reduce *POTENTIAL* waste. By using the best available, they limit what could be wasted. By using minimal force, they limit what could be wasted. By fighting one-on-one, they limit what could be wasted. The Way of the Clans is good; what individual warriors do causes waste.
I’ll finish off with something my woodwork teachers drilled into my head (no, not literally): “Measure twice, cut once.”
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Cray
06/15/02 08:19 AM
12.91.138.114
|
>No-one doubts that a WarShip orbitally bombarding the enemy, or ganging up 20:1 will reduce the time spent in the fight, but what exactly is the point?
Reduce your side's losses and thus waste.
>Imagine how much material is wasted f a WarShip bombards the target
Eh...it ain't MY material.
>This has the side effect of promoting personal honour, and allows Warriors better chances at gaining the chance to compete for promotions and Bloodrights
As if those were worthwhile goals. Bragging rights and a last name.
>Now, on to the Trial of Position
Monumental waste: live-fire combat.
>We will assume that that warrior will fight once a month (not unreasonable, given the tensions between the Clans) and that their career will last ten years (the average “lifespan” of a Warrior). This means that they will use *1,200%* less ammunition in their career. Their 'Mech will require *1,200%* less repairs. They will cause *1,200%* less loss of life for their unit members. And they will gain *1,200%* more objectives for their Clan. Stack all those together...
And thus you see how enormously wasteful the Clans' system of legitimized combat is. How much fighting do you have to do to get 1200% savings in spent war material?
>Further testing out for positions only reinforces this
More waste.
>The Way of the Clans is good
Their whole system is geared for criminal levels of waste of very expensively built war machines.
Had Nicholas merged the SLDF exiles into one big, happy nation rather than 20 feuding neighbors, incredible amounts of waste would be avoided. Destruction and absorption of whole Clans was epic waste, gunning down rioting civilians rather than breaking out firehouses and teargas was epic waste, stealing from their neighboring Clan rather than building their own mines, factories, and colonies was epic waste, investing in a continually maintained military to fight their sibling exiles was epic waste, and the whole Clan command economy is just wasteful...it just goes on and on and on...
The Clans reduce waste *for both sides* when they go to war over such matters by limiting the scale of the warfare, but they miss the possibility of reducing waste for their side alone with overwhelming firepower or avoiding the waste of warfare by not fighting at all by never having been divided in the first place.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
KamikazeJohnson
06/15/02 01:41 PM
209.202.47.12
|
I have read over the many posts to this thread, and have seen the issue tackled from just about every possible angle. I find it very interesting that with the number of different views, I don't think anyone was actually "wrong", since each point was valid from the given perspective. Having never read the novels, or many of the Sourcebooks, I learned a great deal about the Clan system, and a few new thoughts have occurred to me (a daily occurrance, I swear!)
Anyway, here's my take on the whole Clan Wastefulness issue...if I make any glaring "historical" errors, feel free to correct me.:)
First of all, the core of NathanKell's initial tirade (which seems to have gotten lost in this fascinating debate) wasn't merely that the Clan system is wasteful, but that that wastefulness in inconsistent with "a society that abhors waste." An important thing to remember is that that descriptive implicitly refers to "unnecessary waste"--a point I will return to later.
The main arguments presented were as follows:
1) The bidding system is wasteful, since it maximies casualties among the victors.
2) Zellbrigen is wasteful since it eliminates the "n-squared" law of numerical superiority.
3) Bidding isn't entirely wasteful since it limits the scale of engagements.
4) The Clan Socio-political structure is inherently wasteful, since it encourages constant warfare.
5) "Moderated" warfare is still more wasteful than peace.
I think a good place to begin an exhaustive analysis is wityh Nicholas Kerensky, the guy who caused all this. It's fairly clear that the society he created is extremely wasteful, at least militarily (I wouldn't be surprised if civilian life is incredibly efficient...they have to conserve resources so the military can waste them, after all). However, I think the important point is that he believed that what he was doing was the best thing for his people. He may have been wrong, but that's what he believed. Over time, the entire population has become convinced that their way of life is more or less necessary to fulfil their destiny. So, although any Clanner with half a brain knows that their system is wasteful relative to a peaceful society, they accept that waste, since the military society is necessary i.e. no unnecessary waste.
Now, given that a military society generates a repulsive amount of "necessary" or "acceptable" waste, it is a natural step folr them to want to minimize the cost of combat without limiting the frequency of combat (since frequent combat is necessary training for their "destiny", remember). Hence bidding, which has several effects. First, it prevents escalation by limiting forces to those stated in advance. Second, it enhances creativity among the commanders, since they must worry about the composition of their force, rather than just the size, in order to undercut their bidding opponents. I could imagine a bewildering variety of forces and tactics being tried out in order to win with a very marginal bid. This has the general effect of improving the overall efficiency of the military in future engagements.
The down side to bidding is that it maximizes losses among the victors. 2 vs 2 leaves a sigle tattered 'Mech at the end, while 4 vs 2 leaves 3 untouched and possibly one battered 'Mech at the end. Cluster vs Trinary has an even more dramatic saving compared to Trinary vs Trinary. HOwever, if a Clan got a reputation for always attacking at 3:1 or 4:1 odds, no defender would send just a single Trinary. Rather, a defender would send a large enough force that the attacker would be unable to achieve a 3:1 advantage. The end result? Cluster vs Cluster rather than Trinary vs Trinary...a hefty price for a couple easy early victories.
Zellbrigen, OTOH, is wasteful, since numerical superiority has absolutely no effect on the losses sufferd in battle. However, "honourable" combat is a necessary side-effect of a Warrior-cast society, so that wastefulness can also be shrugged off as "necessary", but there are nevertheless some advantages. Consider this: on an IS 3025 battlefield, a 1/0 pilot in a Stalker is wreakinh havok everywhere he goes. What happens once the enemy realizes how dangerous he is? All out gang-bang, of course: the entire enemy force dumps everything they have on the unfortunate hero, reducing his fearsome 'Mech to slag in at most three rounds. An expensive, very effective 'Mech is destroyed (likely with very little left to salvage) and an elite 'Mechwarrior is quite possibly injured or killed. Consider a Clan analogy: A 1/0 'Mechwarrior in a Timber Wolf is the most feared presence on the field. He engages several 'Mechs in sing;e combat, destroys each in turn with only minimal damage, and goes home when there's no one left to fight. The very effective Timber Wolf remains operational, and the elite 'Mechwarrior survives to contribute hos expertise and genetics to the next generation. A Darwinian system to improve the overall efficiency of the military, since superior 'Mechwarriors in superior 'Mechs win battles with far fewer losses, and therefore less waste.
It seems to me that, while the Clan socio-political structure is wasteful by its nature, rules such as bidding have appeared in a marginally successful attempt to minimize the cost of wafare. ("Marginally" because less costly battles means more battles). Other traditions, such as Zellbrigen, are wasteful, but an automatic result of the S-P structure, and are still not without advantage.
(But don't get me wrong, I completly agree with Cray's thesis that they'd be better off if Nicholas had been a hippy treehugger..."peace and love, man...."
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Cray
06/15/02 02:06 PM
64.83.29.242
|
Within the confines of the Clan system, the Clan combat system DOES reduce waste.
It's when you look at the Clan system from the outside that it looks appallingly wasteful.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
NathanKell
06/15/02 03:34 PM
24.44.238.62
|
Yep.
A thoughtful treatise, and one I agree with.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
TenakaFurey
06/16/02 06:52 AM
195.92.168.166
|
AK left the IS to protect it from the SLDF.
He - not NK - set up a society and NK watched it fail and fall into the same hell he'd seen on Terra.
Which was why he wnated to change it. He believed aggression, war and so on were a antural consequence of humanity.A ny attemptt o suppress it woudl only create problems furtehr down the road. Insteda, the society he created sought to channel that aggression through the Trial system.
In this way, he also hoped to produce skilled, hardened warriors who would be able to re establish the Star League in the image of his new society - one without the flaws that had caused the first to fall. So, IMO, the crusaders have the right idea in that they wre meant to invade, but have forgotten the reason for the exercise.
As for saying the Jagaurs were wiped out for attacking civilians - no. The IS powers couldn't have cared less. They chose the Jaguars for a number of reasons. That in doing so they establisehd the war cry "Remember Turtle Bay" was a side issue.
EJL
|
TenakaFurey
06/16/02 06:59 AM
195.92.168.166
|
Had Nicholas merged the SLDF exiles into one big, happy nation rather than 20 feuding neighbors, incredible amounts of waste would be avoided.
- I believe AK tried this first. Didn't it fail?
;-)
EJL
|
Cray
06/16/02 07:31 AM
12.91.120.163
|
Big Al tried it when the SLDF exiles were a bunch of forcibly demobilized soldiers who suddenly found out farming and being colonists wasn't all that fun.
Nicholas got to work with 3 million people exhausted by 2 decades of warfare and thus were willing to accept even his rule. All the barriers to Big Al's happy society were gone.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
novakitty
06/16/02 11:47 AM
209.242.100.230
|
There are always reasons for humans to fight. The 3 million in question might be happy with peace (as a change from constant battle), but their children, or maybe grandchildren would find more reasons for war.
Read up on history before declaring what the species will do. Peace as a result of exhastion does not last.
meow
|
KamikazeJohnson
06/16/02 12:25 PM
209.202.47.12
|
>>Peace as a result of exhastion does not last.<<
That may be true, but it is a great way of establishing unity in the first place. With no outside enemies, it would be easy to demilitarize a society, limiting future troubles to riots or less. Future generations may have plenty to fight about, but without any kind of structure labelling "friend" and "enemy", a full-scale conflict is unlikely.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Cray
06/16/02 02:59 PM
12.91.128.157
|
>There are always reasons for humans to fight. The 3 million in question might be happy with peace (as a change from constant battle), but their children, or maybe grandchildren would find more reasons for war
Don't mistake an urge for violence as an urge for war. The Clan society was artificially arranged to generate as much society-level conflict (war) as possible. A unified society almost certainly would have had criminal violence as children forgot the horrors of the Civil War, but without artificial division into feuding Clans, it would have been limited small scale (individual) criminal violence...not war.
Why do you think a unified, post Civil War Exodus society is immediately going to turn into a clone of an unstable Central or South American nation?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/16/02 03:04 PM)
|
Greyslayer
06/16/02 05:26 PM
137.172.211.9
|
'd.) All of the above.'
A Bid in no way means that the rest of the unit does absolutely nothing. In fact most challenges require the commander of the force to issue a challenge to a defender who gives up the force they are defending with. This allows the commander who brought usually more than enough attacking forces to lower his forces to a more honourable level. All the forces involved still need to be transported, maintained and so on so even not fielding units is wastage. Why not just declare 1 week ahead that you will challenge certain sites with certain units where you have said certain units and transport what you need only in those bids? Certainly less wasteful and within the constraints of their wacky system.
'This has the side effect of promoting personal honour, and allows Warriors better chances at gaining the chance to compete for promotions and Bloodrights.'
So under that system the most competent at wasting material is given promotion? Just because they can kill and waste does not make them a good leader (maybe a good politician but they never rate highly anyway). Only larger-scale battles are where leadership in the form of strategy come into play for clanners so under there system of small combat where can they learn such a thing without having the large-sized conflicts that certainly waste alot?
'When they are there, they face one 'Mech of a lighter class than theirs, one of the same class, and one heavier.'
That is clan subjective and also some basic rules were issued that gave out something like this:
5 tons lighter to 5 tons heavier as first mech
5 tons heavier to 15 tons heavier second mech
15 tons heavier to a unit of 100 tons for third unit.
As a personal system we preferred the old Ghost Bear one you are in a Vulture and you fight
either a Vulture or a Loki in your first fight
from a Loki (rare) up to a Mad Cat in your second
Executioner in your third (they were just sooooo common in the assult class for Ghost Bear there was little point of another mech) .
Experience of the troops you faced also went up as far as we could tell.
'They have failed in the system. I seriously doubt that a single failure would be enough to warrant expulsion from a Sibko, even in the Blood Spirits. Warriors would be given extra chances.'
Actually that would be a rare case. Aidan Pryde was given a second chance and that is basically 1/2 of the story in the 3 novel series is about how it wasn't the case that they can test again. I am not sure on all clans but most I think would not allow re-testing.
'Granted, if a Warrior dies or a cadet fails, all of the material and time taken to get them there is wasted. But let’s assume that the person who lived through the fight was just 10% better than the one that did not (not unreasonable, since the other failed.).'
Scenario:
Two Cadets:
Boris Gun 3 Pil 4 Thor D
Micky Gun 3 Pil 4 Thor Prime
They fight similar opponents:
MW Cindy Gun 3 Pil 3 Loki A
MW Billy-Bob Gun 3 Pil 3 Loki Prime
You will notice one has a better chance of completing his task than the other just based on the variants of the mech selected (one has a targeting computer while the other fights a tougher variant). I fail to see something as common as this would give the cadet a 10% improvment over the person they defeated or even the person that failed to qualify.
'Further testing out for positions only reinforces this. Only the best gain command rights, so this further minimises wasteful loss of material and life.'
So not necessarily those with best intelligence or even any real ability to give orders are needed, just pure intent to destroy each other. Cool, I thought the neanderthols were extinct for the same traits ..... *shrugs*
The number of words used does not necessarily change the outcome of an argument Michael at least you tried numbers to support your arguments this time .
Greyslayer
|
Bob_Richter
06/17/02 03:54 AM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>Had Nicholas merged the SLDF exiles into one big, happy nation rather than 20 feuding neighbors, incredible amounts of waste would be avoided. <<<
Maybe. But just look how much is wasted in American society. The amount we spend on styrofoam containers for our hamburgers could run the entire Clan military on an annual basis. We spend more money on LAWYERS than the Clans do on 'Mechs and Men combined.
Clearly, it would have been difficult to organize a more conventional society that wasted LESS or maintained military readiness in the absence of threat.
But we've had this argument before. Care to go another round, or shall we just agree to disagree?
>>>[orbitally bombarding or using overwhelming odds will] Reduce your side's losses and thus waste. <<<
Only if such an uneven match can be gained. You and I both know this leads to wasteful escalation.
So, in the short term, you may have a point, but in the long term, this leads to and incredibly wasteful arms race.
>>>Eh...it ain't MY material.<<<
Actually, it is. You just destroyed a significant portion of your isorla: Combat machines, fine warriors, etc. Valulable properties, to say nothing of the inevitable collateral damage.
>>>As if those were worthwhile goals. Bragging rights and a last name. <<<
As opposed to...securing a source of oil your country doesn't even need?
Keep in mind that Clan "Warfare" is just TRAINING. Any excuse to fight is a good one, as the real objective is to make warriors and heros, not to gain Kerensky's Dirty Underwear (by the way, this is the sort of thing only Goliath Scorpions fight over.)
>>>Monumental waste: live-fire combat.<<<
*NOT* a waste. The most realistic training in the world is no match for actual veterency. You want statistics to prove it?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
|
|
Extra information
|
1 registered and 181 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 34597
|
|
|
|
|
|
|