Durango
06/28/02 01:14 PM
65.212.106.131
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Whoa...dejavu.
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Khan_Robinette
06/29/02 03:19 PM
216.24.84.189
|
I guess I could have posted 2 cows...
deja-moo
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Chas
07/01/02 05:03 PM
66.187.6.78
|
Forgive me for not getting into this sooner.
I've been taking care of my grandparents for a few days here.
What happens if MW:DA crashes.
If it crashes, it crashes. But, it could have repercussions on the entire line of products based in the BattleTech universe. We can hope it doesn't. But it may.
Face it, CBT was dealing with an ever-shrinking fanbase. While you may not LIKE MW:DA, it DOES provide a gateway into the more advanced CBT community for younger players, or those looking to at least start off with a less complicated game.
As to why FASA sold off its properties?
The company was operating on a money-losing basis. But, the sale of the IP it still possessed allowed them to close down gracefully, instead of going into bankruptcy and having the IP sold off to god-knows-who.
And, in the case of BT, the property went to someone with a vested personal interest in the game. Not to someone who was going to simply rewrite the game into the d20 system and leave it.
Wizkids is giving us a totally different game, and telling us it's Battletech.
No. They're giving you a different, but related, game based in the same universe. They've also licensed the original game off to another company who will be continuing the original product line.
If you don't want to play MW:DA, DON'T . Continue to play CBT. The only difference is the company logo decorating the covers.
Now, is it me, or is this guy taking a "So stop arguing with me, or else" stance, here? To me, he was sounding like HE was getting a little aggressive.
It's you. He's merely giving you points to consider, and telling you to actually think on them before you begin spewing vitriol.
First, when the rights were bought may be moot, as it was, FASA was all but a rotting corpse. At the very least, one could say they were emaciated from all the lawsuits, and in a weakened condition. The vultures were circling.
And what would you rather have had? A company who's owner has a vested interest in continuing the product? Not only as it was originally, but to introduce new forms of the game to appeal to those outside of the traditional genre of fans?
Would you rather have had "One Guy's Publishing" snap it up on auction, turn the system to d20, and play THAT?
As for licencing FanPro to "allow" continued production of product, I would like to point out...that was not altruism.
On a certain level, it is. Remember what I said about shrinking fanbase in CBT? Speak to anybody who was working for FASA before the closure.
They could have simply bought the game, come out with the ClickBase BattleTech and called it "BattleTech" and let it go at that.
But no. WK chose, actively, to maintain a fanbase that they KNEW was shrinking.
Was capitalism involved? Sure. Will they make money either way? Sure. But it's a damn sight better than no BattleTech at all. So a little gratitude (everything in moderation) is not entirely out of order here. Simply shugging it off as "crass capitalism and nothing else" falls quite far from the truth.
It is HE, not ME, who begins to become derisive. "I hate to break it to you [implied 'you idiot, and you don't know what you're talking about']..." In fact, I do. Your problem, Peter Smith, is that you can't argue my point. THUS the banning.
Actually, you really don't know what you're talking about. You know a few peripheral factoids about a fairly complex situation. Sorry to be that blunt. But would you prefer I blow smoke up your ass and tell you that you're right?
As to not arguing your point(s). Of course he can't. Because your points are based on assumptions and emotional response rather than fact. You can't argue against either of them. Simply because there's nothing credible to argue against.
As to your banning, it was because you were being fairly uncivil to people in a position of authority who were trying to reason with you as best they could.
You need to adjust your viewpoint. It's not benevolence. It's avarice. Crystal. Clear.
Avarice?
Avarice: extreme greed for material wealth
You've never met Jordan Weismann have you? While, YES, he does have a desire to be wealthy, he'd much rather be DOING things with that wealth than sitting back and letting it accumulate idly. This is one of the reasons he didn't retire from FASA, FASA Interactive, etc. Because he wants to work. Because he wants to keep going with this business.
The man has more money than you or I will ever probably see (barring a lottery win). However, you don't see him sitting on his ass, merely collecting dividends do you?
Is he a saint? No. NO. And HELL NO.
Is he some money-grubbing, make-a-quick-buck shyster, as you obviously think he is?
No. NO. And HELL NO.
Try coming to Origins or GenCon. Actually talk with the man. Get to know him a little bit. Then tell me he just did it "for the money".
because he is probably just another Jordan-is-the-MAN (who signs my check), Wizkids mouthpiece.
AH. Onto personal attacks now. Bravo!
Let's get this straight. Peter Smith has contributed material, time, and effort into the development of CBT. Has he been compensated for his work? Yes. Is he being compensated for modding CBT's message boards? NO.
Would he continue to push CBT if he didn't actually believe in the product, or the people backing it? NO.
Now, before you begin telling me that "I" am an apologist as well, let's let you in on a little something.
First: I'm the host for CBT (and Sarna for that matter). Second: I shell out beaucoup cash to keep the server that powers both sites connected to the internet and on a fat feed.
Third: I know, and have spent quite a bit of time talking to most of the principles involved in CBT and MW:DA.
Fourth: I receive NO monetary renumeration from either WK or FP for the hosting of the CBT site. And the sites DO require fairly heavy-duty hardware to power them, and cost a BIG chunk of change in bandwidth charges. Which I eat.
Why? Because I believe in the game. And I believe in the community.
As I have known Peter for quite a few years now, I can tell you that the only reason he continues to work with BattleTech is because he too believes in the community. Any compensation he receives outside of that is secondary.
I've already discredited the myth of Jordan-as-saint
What myth? Jordan isn't a saint. However, he deserves at least a small modicum of respect for helping develop the game we all play, and another small modicum for allowing it to continue (whatever his reasons).
Nobody's saying you have to fall down on your face and lick his boots. In fact, we'd worry about you if you did. Simply give the man the little respect he is due.
And THIS is where Warner jumped in, no doubt because of a plea from Peter Smith, probably something along the lines of "I can't prove this guy wrong! He's revealing Jordan for what he is, and undoing our massive propoganda campaign! He's telling people the TRUTH about our cheapo plastic! Do something! Help me out here!"
Massive propaganda campaign? Excuse me whilst I go off and guffaw myself to death.
He can't prove you wrong? There's nothing to prove. Your arguments lead nowhere and you're merely slandering someone. It's not like there's anything you're saying that needs actual discussion.
You just increase the number of "mouthpiece" posts, until mine gets buried.
Now who's propagandizing. Yes. It's all a humongous conspiracy to rob you of your right to say waht you want. Regardless of factual basis. Regardless of actual content.
Break out the tin hats.
As for not banning me yourself, hey, don't hide behind Smith. You know darnn well you advised him to ban me. Him or that immature punk Death Coyote. So don't try to act all "high and mighty" or get all pious on me.
BZZT! Wrong answer bunkie. Warner tends to leave all decisions to the moderators. He's too busy building the site (for which he is not monetarily renumerated either) to deal with moderation issues. He stepped back from taking an active hand on the board for all but actual attacks on the board itself.
Accusing someone (especially Warner) of conspiring to ban you doesn't fly.
And for that matter, what of it that I also post this message on other boards?
If all you're doing is trolling and flaming, it's definitely a concern. That sort of activity isn't wanted on the CBT board. And since THEY are providing you with the access to the board, THEY (not you) decide appropriate levels of conduct. And THEY (not you) decide wether or not you should access the board.
I need to get the message out that people are going to be getting RIPPED OFF by Mage Tech, and that it is actively endangering the very existance of real Battletech!
That's very big of you. But we've been hearing about your "message" for over a year now. We don't need to hear it anymore. Or do you go around to message boards screaming "SOMEONE FLEW PLANES INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTERS!" too?
Also, seeing as you know very little about MW:DA, and haven't even played the game, you're not exactly a very well-informed messenger.
The matter remains, I was banned from the CBT Message forums. For my stance.
Not for your stance. For your conduct and your attitude.
I'm calling your bluff, Warner, ol' buddy, ol' pal. Being as I HAD no private correspondance with Peter Smith, and the correspondence I had with your ALTER EGO I also have copies of (and will be happy to post, if anyone wants to see them) you're gonna come out looking like Clinton. So do me a favor, and post them, will ya, buddy?
Ah. More groundless accusations.
And now Warner's using dummy accounts to shut you up too?
Your attitude is despicable. You claim that I called you a facist, so now you claim the priviledge of being one?
Actually, it's your attitude and conduct that's despicable.
And as to him being a fascist.
1: He runs the CBT domain, without pay. On his own time, and using his own money for development.
2: He allows you to access the site without paying a cent. He gives you access to the content. He even allowed you to participate in the community boards. You abused the last privilege. So it was taken away from you, after being warned that your conduct was unacceptable and in violation of standards that have been imposed upon him by FP and WK. And you were warned REPEATEDLY.
But HE is a facist?
Hmm.
You demand respect for yourself and your cadre that NONE of you has earned.
When did it become YOUR decision wether or not they "earned" respect? Clue (it never was).
Wether or not they DESERVE respect is irrelevant anyhow.
They're the ones in the position of authority. If you want to be a jackass to them, you shouldn't be surprised when your access to something goes byebye.
Also, if you want respect yourself, you need to give a little too. But you've forgotten this.
It's really easy to be brave and brazenly outspoken from a couple thousand miles away, and behind a computer screen.
They gave back exactly what they got and made their points at the same time. I may not like them much but I darnn sure respect them.
CBT isn't "another board". And nobody cares about the flame-fests you were able to suck other forum mods into.
They didn't try to hide behind bans.
If anyone's hiding behind your ban, it's you.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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MacLeod
07/01/02 06:50 PM
65.93.149.32
|
They're posable? Hey... that really makes it tempting...
I'll just get me folks to get me some for Christmas. It keeps me from having to waste my money... 
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Greyslayer
07/01/02 06:57 PM
63.12.147.64
|
So why pray-tell do you want to continue the flame-war?
Several of us told him to get over his banning then a couple of 'lurkers' who do not post come on a couple days after the last post and open it up again. Is it a 'troll'? Is it 'ganging' up after the point? I do not really care, this argument was dead please leave it that way. 
Greyslayer
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MacLeod
07/01/02 07:03 PM
65.93.149.32
|
You've made some good points here, Chas. I agree with you on most of it. Durango, man, you're getting a bit, hmm, paranoid about your getting banned from CBT and about MW:DA. Sure, Jordan does this for the money, but that's a driving force behind 99.9% of people in the buisiness world. He just happened to develop a way to make money that he liked, and that other people liked. Would you blame the guy that makes Saturday morning cartoons for wanting to keep those going?
Okay, maybe Saturday morning cartoons are a bad example, but I think it might help get Chas' and Warner's points across. I understand what they're saying, but hey, I'm not really gonna take sides here. You have your opinions, and Chas here has his, and he has facts, and you don't. You can keep your opinions, Durango. You can protest MW:DA until your face turns mauve and your eyes bug out. Nobody will stop you. I don't care if you protest. I agree that MW:DA probably isn't the greatest thing for BattleTech's future. But you don't see me locking horns with the head honchos of CBT's official site, do you?
And don't go calling me another supporter of Jordan. I've never even met the guy, I don't know what he looks like, and I don't particularly care. I'm only a teenager. Yeah, scary, ain't it. But still, I love CBT, and don't want to see it die. Let them release MW:DA. Protest it, have marches, speeches, whatever.
You only cross the line if you blatantly attack people. And that's what you did. That is the unacceptable thing, man. Not your opinion, but how you chose to express your opinion.
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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MacLeod
07/01/02 07:04 PM
65.93.149.32
|
Good point, dude.
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Greyslayer
07/01/02 07:11 PM
63.12.147.64
|
Don't call me dude 
Greyslayer
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PeterSmith
07/01/02 07:11 PM
4.17.223.29
|
Nice post Chas. But you are in error with one part:
"Let's get this straight. Peter Smith has contributed material, time, and effort into the development of CBT. Has he been compensated for his work? Yes."
The only compensation I've had is an early look at some of the new products. I have received neither product nor money. Just like everybody else working on the game, I'm doing this first for the love of the game.
And if you think I'm blowing smoke, take a look at Bryan Nystul. Wrote material for the game for a bunch of years, ended up as the Line Developer for (I think) about five years. However, after going to Origins, he had a bit of a revelation. He no longer loved the game he put years of effort into. With that he turned to his friend and co-worker, Randall Bills, and his boss, L. Ross Babcock, and told them that it was over. And he did that because he knew that if he continued, and just went through the motions of working on the game, that it would be a mistake. And instead of making that mistake, he quietly withdrew from the game he loved.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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MacLeod
07/01/02 07:14 PM
65.93.149.32
|
Hey, I had a principal once and he yelled that at a friend of mine.
You should have seen the old guy, he yelled it at the top of his lungs and his face resembled a raspberry...
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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PeterSmith
07/01/02 07:42 PM
4.17.223.29
|
"when did Battletech and anything related to it become a family game?"
It's been that way for a while now. Head over to Europe and check out what famlies play. Where we in America will break out Monopoly and The Game of Life, it's not surprising to see games like 40k and BTech played.
If it works over there, why not see if it'll work over here?
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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MacLeod
07/01/02 07:47 PM
65.95.255.225
|
You mean they have little kiddies playing as Chaos Marines?
Kinky...
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Karagin
07/01/02 08:56 PM
63.173.170.204
|
Hey...don't you know who you are talking to? Thoses that tossed in their 10 cents of comments are the elite of CBT.
You should be happy they even lowered themselves to talk to the common fan.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
07/01/02 09:01 PM
63.12.147.64
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I probably would say the same to any other lurker coming in at this stage ... elite or not.
Lets get back to talking about things important to this board not to another one.
Greyslayer
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Karagin
07/01/02 09:03 PM
63.173.170.204
|
I agree, but it seems the three of them don't...oh well...so do you feel that the IS would every copy heavy lasers?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/01/02 09:05 PM
63.173.170.204
|
Yawn...and I feel sorry that no one can have a negative opinion on this whole MWDA thing with someone attacking them for expressing their views...oh well guess some have to be right...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/01/02 09:06 PM
63.173.170.204
|
Nice opinion...and I feel sorry that no one can have a negative opinion on this whole MWDA thing with someone attacking them for expressing their views...oh well I guess some feel that their opinions are the word of LAW and thus should be always believed...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
07/01/02 09:06 PM
63.12.147.64
|
I'll answer this in another thread if you'll ask it. This one isn't for that kind of question
Greyslayer
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Karagin
07/01/02 09:07 PM
63.173.170.204
|
If you say so, I forgot who I am talking to around here at times...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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PeterSmith
07/02/02 12:10 AM
4.17.223.29
|
Ahh. Just so I'm crystal clear about anything I say to you, you'll automatically assume that I'm intentionally misleading people when I post here.
For everybody else who is reading this, there is a convention in Germany every year called Essen. Reports from people who have attended it are that the convention sees roughly eight times the number of people than GenCon sees over the same period of time. Part of that is because games like BattleTech have a much more diverse audience than they do over here.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Karagin
07/02/02 12:18 AM
63.173.170.47
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And I can see you missed the point...BT is a wargame, thus in THIS COUNTRY, that is NOT a family game.
While Dad and Junior might play it, Mom and Sis aren't likely.
But again as I said you know more then anyone on this topic thus your OPINION is going to be correct and everyone elses is going to be WRONG. Or is that not the case?
And I do like how you and someothers have to hide behind the invisibleilty feature...are you afraid of being seen on here or something?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/02/02 02:03 AM
63.173.170.71
|
What rage?
I am having a lot of fun laught at this MWDA stuff...I don't see a silver linning and based on WHAT I DO SEE, more folks are TICKED OFF over the course that Jordan has taken.
But no one wants to see that part or even understand it...none of you who are so quick to tell those who don't like it they are wrong seem to care WHY we find it wrong or WHY we dislike it and yet those that don't like are lumped into the group who wants to destory the game...right okay so much for folks LISTEN and UNDERSTAND each other...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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MacLeod
07/02/02 02:29 AM
65.95.255.225
|
I think you have a definite point here. Nobody is really looking at why people don't like MWDA. Maybe there is no silver lining, and maybe there is. You're right, more people are pissed about what Jordan did than there are people that aren't. However, I don't really fall in either category, but I fall in both. I am pissed about MWDA, and think it's a bad idea, because it warps what could have been a great future for BattleTech, and because it looks rather rediculous. But, Jordan did what he did so:
1) He could make money (yes, Durango is right here)
and
2) So that BattleTech could continue in some form instead of stopping totally when FASA started pushing up the dasies.
I don't know the guy, and I probably will never meet him, but I can tell that he at least has some form of concern over the future of BattleTech. Wether that is for how people like it or how much $$ it brings in, I don't know.
What I'm trying to say here (like I've said all along) is that it really doesn't matter whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, you aren't wrong, because that is an opinion.
To quote the great movie High Fidelity (this is going to have a point):
Barry: Come on, Rob, lemme play what's next.
Rob: Barry, just tell me.
Barry: Come on, man.
Rob: Just tell me.
Barry: (Giggles) Little Latin Lupe Lu.
Dick: Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels?
Barry: (shouts) NO!!! The Righteous Brothers!!
Dick: Oh... never mind...
Barry: No, YOU never mind! What's wrong with the Righteous Brothers?!!?!?!?!
Dick: Nothing... I... just prefer the other version.
Barry: BOVINE FERTILIZER (yes, he said something else here, but I censored it so I won't get banned)!!!!!
Rob: How can it be bovine fertilizer to state an opinion?
Barry: When it's the wrong opinion. Jeez, Rob, since when did this record shop become a fascist regime?
Rob: Since you brought in that bovine fertilizer tape!!!
Okay, if you missed my point there, it was that all this anger and hatred is coming out because of the advent of MWDA (LIttle Latin Lupe Lu, by the Righteous Brothers). Dick represents one version of people, the ones that support (or at least kind of like) MWDA (okay, it wasn't his tape, but he's the best kind of person here). Barry (obviously) represents Durango and the people that hate MWDA and yell and scream about it. Then, when Rob (the people in the middle) tells Barry to calm down, Barry goes on about the fascist regime thing (hey, Durango and Warner, does that sound familiar?).
Everyone needs to calm down about it. Warner and everyone on his side need to stop with the holier-than-thou attitude. Everyone on Durango's side need to stop attacking Warner's people. Don't take offense if you don't like which person your opinions match with, I'm only using them because they're the ones having the blood feud here.
I want to applaud Zippy, Kahn Robinette, Sherrif Bart, Greyslayer, Nightward, ErichRaulfestone, and MadWolf for trying to calm this madness here. Guys, it may not have worked, but you tried. Those guys really went out on a limb here - they showed that they could at least stand the MWDA thing, or at least ignore it, and they showed their opinions in a place where they could get yelled at.
Just everybody calm down here. It isn't everything major.
If it is, well, there's always another alternate universe.
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Khan_Robinette
07/02/02 09:18 AM
216.24.92.31
|
Yep...calm down...
My personal opinion is....
Each to his own, if you don't like MW:DA...fine! If you like prepainted action figures fine.
Jezus, to think that we live in a land where everyone is supposed to be free to express his or her own opinions yet they get knocked down or beat up every time either side opens it's collective mouth.
If you do not want to play MW:DA and I don't, Play with your own old mechs and let the people who do want to play exercise their freedom to chose.
If you do not like the way the storyline is going use your imagination and take the story line whichever way you want to go. It is obvious by some of the posts here that many off you have some iota of imagination and can maybe spin teh Btech universe off on whatever tangent you want.
Kill the clans, keep the clans, fight a long civil war, unite the sphere for a beer, who gives a frik.
I mean the basic game takes imagination, how many battlemechs do you see walking around everyday?
Ok rant over, even though a lot did not make sense I feel better now.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Khan_Robinette
07/02/02 09:22 AM
216.24.92.31
|
If they did copy them would they have the same damage profile of standard Clan Er lasers give or take a few points o damage?
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
|
ErichRaulfestone
07/02/02 10:17 AM
164.76.107.171
|
For everyone: Put it simply, If you dont like what you see or hear and have nothing good to say....SHUT UP!!!!!!!
sheesh, Grow up, it A GAME for crying out loud. Just think of all the energy your spending defending your
position, you could be um... GAMING, yeah thats the ticket....
Erich Raulfestone
Rangers, Lead the Way!
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
Isaiah 6:8
......and I went......
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Karagin
07/02/02 10:23 AM
63.173.170.120
|
This what I am talking about you are telling the folks who are expressing their thoughts as to WHY they don't like it to shut up, what does that do?
It pisses them off and thus we have flame wars. Is it so hard for TPTB and their buddies to get the hint that a good majority of the BT fans DON'T LIKE the current direction they (TPTB) have taken the game?
Telling one side to shut up showing a big bias. IF you are going to one side then it needs to apply to both.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ErichRaulfestone
07/02/02 10:27 AM
164.76.107.171
|
Excuse me LOUDMOUTH,what were the first two words in my other posting"FOR EVERYONE" it is applied FOR ALL.......thank you 
Erich Raulfestone
Rangers, Lead the Way!
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
Isaiah 6:8
......and I went......
Edited by ErichRaulfestone (07/02/02 10:29 AM)
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Karagin
07/02/02 10:34 AM
63.173.170.120
|
Excuse me read rules 2 and 3.
And my point still stands via your posting and I quote:
In reply to:
If you dont like what you see or hear and have nothing good to say....SHUT UP!!!!!!!
Seems you aimed this at one group...or prehaps you need to clear it up some so as to include both side yes/no?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ErichRaulfestone
07/02/02 10:38 AM
164.76.107.171
|
Good, you learn...ill see ya all ltr
Erich Raulfestone
Rangers, Lead the Way!
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
Isaiah 6:8
......and I went......
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