Greyslayer
07/11/02 04:25 AM
63.12.148.2
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The darker Grey Plastic minis is what he is referring to. The ones where the Marauder has to be well and truly 'soldered' together just to stop it from sprining apart (I've seen few actually stay together for any length of time but apart from that are not far off the Metal Minis). Those Light Grey plastic minis are pretty horrible I agree.... still you could buy alot of them for the price of one MW:DA starter pack. Or as Karagin says those Citytech ones even though the Centurion nearly drags his knuckles  .
From what I have seen of these plastic minis I haven't thought much of. You must be privvy to things several times better than I have seen otherwise old age has caught up to your eye-sight ;p.
Greyslayer
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Chas
07/11/02 07:42 AM
66.187.6.50
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Do you have a counter agruement that isn't based on your personal friendship with those making MWDA?
Okay. Very funny. Ha. Ha.
Now answer the question. Do you have any arguments about this that aren't simply based on your personal biases?
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 07:49 AM
66.187.6.50
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You say it's a different, yet you have said there will rules to bring the MWDA units in to Battletech...ok two different games...sure right if you say so.
Okay. Stop with the stupid act(?) Karagin.
Using MW:DA figures in CBT is similar to using proxies. Except that there can be (but don't neccessarily have to be) modifications based on the scale of the MW:DA minis. Just like you could use CAV minis, etc in CBT.
IF the current miniatures, ie the metal ones, could be used in MWDA it would kill the biggest arguement against MWDA that folks have, the need to buy all new mechs.
Okay Karagin. How do you generate click-base stats for such a piece? Or are you just talking about proxying it for another piece that IS click-based that you already own?
IF the current miniatures, ie the metal ones, could be used in MWDA it would kill the biggest arguement against MWDA that folks have, the need to buy all new mechs.
If you simply want stats for MW:DA assigned to your pre-existing CBT minis, you start out with a possibly VAST army compared to newbie players. One they'd have to make a HUGE investment in metal or MW:DA minis to duplicate.
Why should you be allowed this?
Because it'll keep your feelings from being hurt?
C'mon. A nice, rational explanation shouldn't be too tough to manage.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Warner_Doles
07/11/02 08:36 AM
206.27.40.65
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Eh? Did you say something sonny?
I've got both sets. While the CityTech 'Mechs are good, they pale in comparison to the detail that the MWDA 'Mechs have. When the entire line is out people will get the full load of information. But I do understand there are those that have already killed off any idea of giving the new game a chance. That's only natural. Classic BattleTech is still here and we have something special coming very soon.....
Don't ask, because I am not going to tell....
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 09:43 AM
216.24.92.31
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Still and all, I think the mechs coming out look like the cheesy toys they are.
(Rant On) No target, just blowing off steam.
And the problem with these kids are that they will buy lots and lots of plastic toys that cannot be redesigned, like our mechs, cannot be repainted to preferences, like our mechs. No imagination, no creativity for the kids, let their brains turn to mush.
"I got plastic prepainted, predesigned mechs"
Oh well I got metal, personalily painted, personally desinged mechs that will shove that ugly looking circular saw up your bum. Corporate America wants these kids to conform to their designs so that they can make money off of their mommies and daddies. "I gotta get this rae/unique, must spend hundreds of dollars" What ever happened to a mechwarrior's skill progression. You take a mech, assemble it, paint it, put a warrior that I hope you put some thought into, and gradually make him better by fighting in games. Not because mommy and daddy bought you a trillion Booster sets until you had the perfect predesigned, pre painted TOY.
Ok..done with that.
And anyhoos, call me an old man, but I paid for the majority of my mechs with an allowance OR by winning them in pink slip battles. Now-a-days I buy them, when i can find them, with money I earned. Yes mom and pop GAVE me the allowance, but I damn shure worked for it.
Ok I hope I am done 
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 09:47 AM
216.24.92.31
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I agree...old Plastech and the newer Plastech both sucked...why because they were plastic imitations.
Take an Atlas, either the remake or the old one and compare it to the smiling lump of plastic from plastech....I admit the plastic is ugly, but thats not the point. The point is creativity...teh ability to paint even those goofy looking plastechs the way you wanted to and to design a mech to fit your fighting style, not to be some conformist.
Carlin had it right, you pays your money and you get what tehy jolly well want to give you, which in this case is plastic toys for eight year olds.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 09:55 AM
216.24.92.31
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"If you simply want stats for MW:DA assigned to your pre-existing CBT minis, you start out with a possibly VAST army compared to newbie players. One they'd have to make a HUGE investment in metal or MW:DA minis to duplicate."
Ok....so BT cannot be allowed in just because an eight year old screams, ITS NOT FAIR??? For 18 years I have seen players come to BT, everyone of them started with 1 or 2 minis and now some of them have built up their armies over time. I got right at 1,000 minis if a newbie sits down to play and wants to use 2 minis, I pick 2 minis and I fight him, if he wants to use more minis...HE CAN BORROW SOME...its not like I am gonna spend hours setting up a couple of hundred minis to blwo some lil kids mind out of the water.
Grow up kis, life ain't fair.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 09:57 AM
216.24.92.31
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Yeah write one about my character :P
j/k
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Warner_Doles
07/11/02 11:27 AM
206.27.40.65
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Ok....so BT cannot be allowed in just because an eight year old screams, ITS NOT FAIR??? For 18 years I have seen players come to BT, everyone of them started with 1 or 2 minis and now some of them have built up their armies over time.
I don't believe this was the point he is making. The point, I believe, is this is a new game, it has new pieces to play this new game. The miniatures used in Classic BattleTech are not for the new game because they are out of scale and too expensive to make the new game affordable. Compare the cost of a Booster Pack with 1 Mech, 2 Tanks and 1 Infantry unit to that of equal number of metal miniatures. A Booster Pack costs $9.95 to which you buy 1 Metal 'Mech at 9.50 (avg), 1 package with 2 armored vehicle at 7.50 (avg) and an infantry unit at 5.50 (avg). That's $22.50 for the lot to equal the Booster Pack's contents which makes the metal miniatures 56% more expensive then the Booster Pack.
MWDA is a less expensive game to start up with and play. Its not a game targeted at 8 year olds. Its target at those 10 and up. Where as Classic BattleTech was targeted at 12 and up. You don't have to keep buying buying and buying as many are claiming you have to just to collect. Heck you can buy the Starter Kit at $19.95 and 10 Booster Packs at $9.95 and have invested a grand total of $119.45 excluding taxes. And for your investment you have the following: (Bob, you get invested into this game and use the units in CBT as proxies if you want! It is allowed. )
11 BattleMechs
22 Armored Vehicles
15 Infantry Units
36-page rule book
1 Special Equipment Card
3 Dice
1 Flexible Ruler
You don't need to buy anymore if you don't want to. You've got your unit if you want. That is all you have to purchase. Its what I am going to do and be done with it! I dare say you can not spend $119.45 on Classic BattleTech products and get even a quarter of what you get with MWDA. This is what the new game is about. Being affordable, not burdened with a ton of detailed rules and regulations, is fast because its not time consuming like a standard Classic BattleTech lance/star vs lance/star game is. And most of all its fun to play. How do I know? I play tested this thing in the beginning. It has a lot to offer those who are willing to be open minded, reasonable and sensible about the game in not comparing MWDA to Classic BattleTech's mechanics and rules set. There are no comparisons. They are two completely different and seperate systems. You looking for a fast large unit battle of Battalion vs Battalion? MWDA game is your venue. You want that detailed personal lance on lance battle? Then Classic BattleTech is the venue. MWDA is a benefit for everyone who is willing to be open to something new. And if you don't want to play it or give it a shot, that's your choice. I will respect that. I cannot though understand how anyone can arbitrarily dismiss the new game without even giving it a really good try at it. But that is your choice. Anyway this is what MWDA has to offer everyone. It is up to you to want to play it or not. Its not that expensive to get into and play. Just the choice if you want to support WizKids or not. That's what it comes down to ultimately!
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 12:45 PM
216.24.92.31
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Not bad Warner
You ware right about the expese associated with BT or CBT as it is also termed. I was just trying to make a point concerning kids who want a large army feeling it was unfair that current CBT players already had a large army.
Although I do have to admit after reading your post and comparing with about the past 3 or 4 emails I have gotten
Crow does not taste all that bad...has a sorta chicken taste to it
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Durango
07/11/02 01:03 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
D> So, let me get this straight...Stone's confederation exists alongside of all the Houses? This seems to be at variance with other things I have read.
C>Yup. This is why we ask that people try not to go up in flames until they have all the information.
Well, then I thank you. This was new information I was not previously aware of. How much more do you know? For instance, can you tell me how it was that the houses stood idly by while Mr. Stone was busy shuttling people between houses in his forced-relocation schemes?
In reply to:
D>Ah, so that's it. Once they have made rules which allow the use of MWDA figs, what is the motivation for a person who started with MWDA figs to switch over to real Battletech? Especially if such a person has a LOT of these Overpriced Cheap Plastic figures?
D>Apparently you missed the point. It's a way to allow people with MW:DA figs to use CBT rules to with MW:DA figs. Instead of buying a new set of metal minis. Most of it is simply going to be scale adjustments.
As to the motivation? That's different for everybody.
Ok, if I missed it before (I didn't) then I should understand it now, and just so you can see that I do, I'm going to paraphrase: The idea of making the new rules is so people can play with the new OCP minis, using real Battletech rules.
Now, I'm going to clarify my point, so you can see what I meant (which I wasn't sure you understood).
I believe that the purpose behind making new rules is so people can play with the Mage Tech minis, exclusively. Just to further clarify, I believe that the reason behind this is so Jordan can distance his game from the real Battletech. The reason he wants to do this is because he wants HIS Overpriced Cheap Plastic to sell, and not the metal minis. He makes less from royalties than he does from direct sales.
Saying "The idea behind making the new rules is so people can play with the new Posable Plastic Action Figures using real Battletech rules" is merely a restatement of "We're making it so you don't have to buy metal to play Battletech", and since A+B=C, then B+A=C, so: "The reason we're making the new rules is so you can throw out your old rules, and your old minis, and play with OUR Mage Tech minis".
Which flies in the face of the whole pacification which was being offered to people who play real Battletech, ie, "The new game is a way to get people involved in YOUR game", in fact, it's not, it's a way to get people playing with HIS game or more accurately, HIS Overpriced Cheap Plastic.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
In reply to:
D> This also flies in the face of the whole "MWDA is a starter game to get people invoved with real Battletech" theory.
C>No. It doesn't. You start out playing MW:DA. Later on, if you move to a more complex game like CBT, there are a set of conversions available so you can bring your MW:DA figs with you and use them (like people use proxies in current BT games).
No. If you're playing with Magetech figures, you are NOT playing Battletech. You are playing Mage Tech, with Battletech rules (and with these new rules, who's to say they'll even be Battletech rules? They'll probably be pseudo-Battletech). The scale and the minis are what makes it Geniune Battletech. Playing with oversized dollies is NOT playing Battletech. (Else, you may just as well use Barbie dolls as proxies. "I'm going to hit him with my PPC!" (Holds up hairdryer.))
WHO AGREES WITH ME? I say, "If you're playing in the wrong scale with Mage Tech Posable Action Figures, you're not playing Battletech". Who agrees?
In reply to:
D>I gotta say, it sure looks like they are making every effort to replace real Battletech with this overpriced cheap plastic changeling.
C>That's only because you're not looking closely enough at it.
That's because I have been looking at it closely. And I don't like what I see. There is a trend, it is towards the extinction of real Battletech. Anyone who plays this Mage Tech is helping in the extinction.
In reply to:
D> Plastic Posable Action Figures
C> They're not talking about posable action figures. They're talking about the level of detail that can be brought into a figure in plastic that would be difficult and cost-prohibitive to reproduce in metal.
Detail? What, you mean because they make the grooves in the plastic deeper? There is detail in metal minis, and it can be brought out easily by anyone competent enough to hold a paintbrush. I really would like to hear exactly what detail you are referring to.
If you ask me, they switched to plastic because they can produce it cheaper and faster. Getting this level of "detail" (already available in metal) was the excuse they gave, to pacify the easily pacified.
In reply to:
And how do you get off thinking they're charging MORE for this? $20 for a starter set. Includes a mech, two vehicles, and 4 (IIRC) infantry units. $10 for a booster set. Includes a mech, a vehicle, and two infantry units.
How much would this cost you in metal at the CBT scale? And how much do you think it'd cost you in metal at the MW:DA scale?
Depends...is it a collectible (meaning, I have to buy tons of c rap before I get what I want) system? In that case, it'd be horribly expensive...and in parallel with any collectible scheme, those who have spent hundreds of dollars to get the only pieces worth anything will be selling them at scalper's prices.
On the other hand, if it were normal, buy the piece you want marketing, I could get the important pieces (the MECH) for about $6-8 bucks. The "starter" and "booster" set are full of superflous, redundant, and REPETITIVE non-necessary pieces, put there for the exclusive purpose of selling more Overpriced Cheap Plastic.
Using your example, I could get what I wanted for about $8 bucks...and leave the rest of the c rap on the shelf.
Which, by the way, if they're going to make the game playable by real Battletech rules, most people will leave the rest of their c rap at home, and play with JUST THE MECHS...THAT'S what Battletech IS.
Of the people I talk to, anyway...using Infantry, vehicles, aero is not common. They play Battletech with 'Mechs.
In reply to:
D>Ok, now that's just mean.
C>Hey. The truth hurts. The original spider was butt ugly. Face it. And again, the aesthetic and production reasons aren't the only reasons, as the report states.
"As the report states"...that's like saying you believe something just because it was written down. (Points to page, "Look, it's right here in black & white!") Cheap plastic.
The Spider (the REAL Spider) is elegant. The plastic Spider is cludgy, over-complicated, over-designed. It is a cheap knockoff, and made worse by the fact it's a combination of cheap knockoffs, and yet even worse, it's not the first to be a cheap knockoff (making it a knockoff OF a knockoff).
In reply to:
D> Plus it keeps a steady income to them.
C> Jeeze. Don't miss a beat do you.
The public has a right to be COUNTER-spun.
In reply to:
C>
1: It's a BAD THING (TM) to sit there and glut the market with tons and tons of figures all at once. Most of their target market simply doesn't have the cash on hand to collect all the figs all at once.
2: Heaven forfend them actually doing more than breaking even on a product they put out. I mean heck. It's only a business! They should just give the stuff away because some whiner wants it all his way.
1. That's nice, but let's not forget that Wizkids is not selling a product out of the goodness of their hearts, and they're not doing it to be nice to kids all over the world. They're in it for the money. They made it sound like, "Oh, the kids are our most precious resources! We don't want to inconvenience them by putting too much product out at once! They'll be unhappy that they can't own them all!" When the truth is, good marketing dictates that you don't flood the market when your buyers can't buy it all. JIT (Just In Time) marketing, ideally, would have a new cycle, or replenish the current cycle, about every two weeks...AT THE END OF PAY PERIODS. After all, you want to exploit them as much as possible, without bleeding them dry.
2. "forfend"? What does this mean? Speak English, man!
In reply to:
D>Plus, Mike was feeling a little put out that he wasn't getting enough money.
C> And I'd like to know exactly how much experience you've had working in the business as an author. It'd make your arguments on this much stronger than they are.
I don't have to have any experience, everything I said can be gleaned from reading Mike's own words. I rest on HIS case. Did you even read his letters? Did you understand them?
In reply to:
D>Ok, still not clear why I would need to buy all new PPAF pieces when I have perfectly suitable metal 'Mechs. Oh, now I remember...because unless you have the click-bases you can't play.
C>At least make an effort to get your facts straight man. Some people, especially the older BT mini collectors, may want to collect MW:DA click-base versions of the metal minis they already have. And possibly play CBT in MW:DA scale with MW:DA figs.
Ok, this is not the first time that someone has tried to involve facts. Which facts are you referring to? Instead of implying that I don't have my facts straight, you should tell me what the facts are, and then tell me what I haven't got straight. What are the facts, Chas?
As for those people who want to switch scale...I'm sure there will be those people. I'm also wondering what would cause a person who has hundreds of dollars in real Battletech to switch to playing with dolls. I really believe that a person who has hundreds of dollars of real Battletech investment is one of two types: the diehard collector, who is simply looking to start another collection, or a person who wants to play in such a manner with his kids, so he can teach them how to play real Battletech.
In any case, I don't think that such a person would be common, and by the way, what does this have to do with what I was talking about...which was, IIRC, being coerced into buying a whole new collection?
In reply to:
C>And there's nothing stopping you from using metal minis or proxies in BT games and tournaments as you always have. So your charge of "if we don't have the plastic figs we can't play" is ludicrous. But you already know this right?
Well, you're right...but in that same vien, there's nothing stopping me from wearing floodwater pants, or mismatched socks, or doing any other act which would make me look silly. (Not that I've never looked silly, but why deliberately?)
And proxies in a strictly Battletech match, that's nothing unusual...but using a Battletech mini in a Mage Tech game, or vice versa? Mismatched, wrong scale, looks silly. Not to mention, IT HAS NO CLICK BASE...but you already knew this, right?
Are you just trying to cloud this issue? I think maybe (more likely) you didn't understand what I meant.
Here, this next line breaks it down:
In reply to:
D>So either I can't play MWDA...or I have to buy a whole new collection.
C>What? You want to play MW:DA with the figs you already have? Sorry. You can't.
I know that. That's been my beef all along. Why didn't they make the game in the correct scale? If they had, I'd buy the minis and strip the bases off, that's why. They don't want us playing Battletech, they want us playing Mage Tech. If they can't get us to play Magetech, then they'll make up a new set of Battletech-like rules so we can play a Battletech-like game, but it must be with THEIR Overpriced Cheap Plastic C rap.
In reply to:
Why should you be allowed to import figs from another game into MW:DA? And, as much as you seem to hate MW:DA (with what little you've seen of it), why would you want to?
So aggressive! Ok, to answer your first question, why should I have to? If Wizkids would have done it right and make the 'Mechs in the correct scale (and they could have, you know), then that wouldn't have been an issue.
As for your second question...if they'd done it right, that wouldn't have been an issue either. However, since they did it wrong, it merely makes for one more point of contention. In fact, I don't want to, now...but there may have been people out there who'd wanted to (if you can posit people who want to collect OCP, I can posit people who'd want to mix minis). In fact, these people who might have wanted to cannot, with any degree of verisimilitude, and especially not now that the new system requires click-bases.
But the reason why they made it different was so people COULDN'T mix minis. First, a Battletech mini would wipe up the board with these cheapo knock-offs, and second, people playing with plastic and metal could not HELP but notice how superiour the quality of metal is to plastic, and how the metal figures look sooooo much better than plastic. That's BAD (tm) for Wizkids.
In reply to:
D>until the other shoe drops, and this changeling actually DOES replace Battletech.
Wow. Talk about totally missing the clue-train.
Well, apparently, ONE of us did. By the way, nice snipe. Am I allowed to be rude, now?
In reply to:
D> MW:DA is not, never was intended as, and never will be a replacement for CBT. Got it?
Again, one of us is not getting it. In one way, though, I agree with you. Magetech is a poor replacment for real Battletech. That's why, once it overbears real Battletech, it's going to burn out...leaving both games as mere memories.
In reply to:
D> I'm seeing nothing but bleak future for real Battletech.
C>Because you won't let yourself actually see anything else. CBT could go on another 30 years, and you'd be predicting it's demise at least once a month the entire time.
Nope. Because neither one will last that long. Want to bet?
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Karagin
07/11/02 01:34 PM
63.173.170.5
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No, what it would do is allow the older players to get into the new game with what they already have, thus the support and help of the older players can be passed on to the incomming crowd and at the same time the chance to show of the BT is there as well, thus both game get support.
Now can you drop your little immature act and stop trying to be something you are not? Or is that asking to much?
It's one thing for me or anyone else to post that we don't like something for what ever reasons, and while I admit some of the posting I have seen have pused the line, responding back in the same manner doesn't do anything to keep folks rational or on track.
If you want to talk about something how you stop with baiting and try looking at things from both sides.
Now in case it was forgotten, we have two sides here actually three if you want to get techincal.
Side A is made up of folks who like the new game and will be playing it as much if no more then BT.
Side B is made up of folks who have looked at the new pieces, read the WK release notes etc...and feel that the game in their opinion is not worth it and they are upset that BT is going to be in any way connected with it.
Now Side C is made up of those waiting to see the game and it's pices and to play it at least once before making a call on it.
Now my question is this if it's okay for Side A to say what they want, why then is not okay for Side B to do the same without all the attacks on them?
As I have said before, folks will find something that they don't like because each person as different tastes and likes. For example, a good friend of mine will only play BT with book mechs and units, he doesn't like custom made mechs or home tech. The others in my group using everying under the sun in the game as long as we are having fun. Either way we are having funning and our likes and dislikes aren't in the way.
Now for stats for the metal minis in MWDA....should be to hard to come up with them since one could look at what a similar weighted unit has and go from there. As you said CAV miniatures can be used, and as I have done others too have taken the stats of CAV units and built them as BT mechs...makes for some interesting mechs and thus the minis are used ala BT. One of the guys on the STEEL PANTHERS YAHOO GROUP was asking for advice on converting BT to CAV so he could use the BT mechs and vehicles in the CAV universe.
Now you and the others feel that the older players have to many mechs and mechs that would clean the board of the "newer" Dark Age mechs, that may be the case, but would not the rules dealing with rare mechs prevent said stampdee? Or a higher point count that forces one to either go with common units over rare?
But as I said, if Jordan wanted the older fans then somethng like this would have been done in my opinion, and based on the fact that it's not there and also based on the flak you are giving it, it seems it won't be there and thus the point is made crystal clear that he is not that interested in the older fans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 01:36 PM
63.173.170.5
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Not funny at all. You are asking me if I have any arguements that are not bias and I asking you do you have any counterpoints that are biased do to your friendship with Jordan and Randal?
It's a fair question, since anything I post you seem to want to turn into a three ring ciricus with your snide remarks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 01:38 PM
65.212.106.131
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Durango> You can't use real Battletech figures in Mage Tech, they have no click-bases.
Karagin> "This is nice, can't use BT figures in MWDA, BUT you can use MWDA figures in BT...sorry it should work both ways."
Peter>Why?
Karagin>
Let's see: [D>Mind if I paraphrase, and organize?]
You should be able to use BT figures in MWDA because:
...it would allow the existing fan base to play the new game without having to buy all new pieces.
...it would make the transition to the new timeline (and such) easier and smoother
...it would stop a lot of the arguements which are are going on over whether or not WK cares about the original fan base
...it would show that WK is not putting all it's power behind only one game while deliberately sabotaging the other
...(with a new rule set), it would allow the use of existing mechs in the new timeline
Now since I am sure you will have a counter arguement, please tell us why it SHOULDN'T be a rule set to use the current metal miniatures in MWDA...
I don't want to argue, but I'd like to point out a few things:
...they don't want anyone playing the game, unless they buy the new pieces. They BUILT it that way.
...they don't care about how smooth the transition is, this game is not for the previous fan base.
...(see above.)
...how many times do I have to repeat myself? Wizkids is putting all their muscle behind this new product, and they don't care if they snuff out Battletech in the process. They also don't care what we think...that's why we need to SHOW them how we feel. Who said it? Vote with your wallet. (I also intend to discourage people at local shops from buying Magetech. I'm certain that parents will listen to my "legalized gambling for kiddies" routine. I also have the attention of two Florida legislators, and I'm making my point.)
...a new rule set would require too much effort. In order to use your existing minis in a Wizkids game (assuming you could get over the fact that you were playing with dollies), you'd have to design new Hex click-bases for your metal minis. According to them, they spend MUCHO time "playtesting" this new system. They are not going to spend any effort releasing official stats and retro-fit click bases for real Battletech minis, they are too busy desinging new pieces for their new game. After all, why design anything for a game you're trying to bury?
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Karagin
07/11/02 01:42 PM
63.173.170.5
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Why would it be so hard for them to support and allow the minis from BT into MWDA?
Correct if I am wrong, but both games share the same history and background...both have mechs and if I am not mistaken the mechs in BT are still around in MWDA, just not in large numbers...so a conversion system would be helpful and make it easier for the those who want to play the new game but don't want to buy new miniatures to play it with.
And on a flexibilty note, BT ability to be able to anything for a mech as long as you have signal mech sheet, some dice, a pencial and table to play and the rule book, seem s to offer more then the locked in system of MWDA...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
07/11/02 01:50 PM
24.44.238.62
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"the scale and the minis are what makes it Geniune Battletech."
No. That's MWDA's whole point: the minis make the game.
And I say that's bunk. Battletech can be played with 1 piece of paper, 1 pencil, and 1D6. What does it take to play MWDA? A box of plastic? Some fancy dials? But that's not the worst of it. The single--and I do mean single--factor that keeps me interested in Battletech (the game, not the universe) is the fact that you can make your own units. That's not just part of the BT experience, that is the BT experience. That's the key to the game.
That's what makes it fun.
And it would be very simple to design construction rules for MWDA. Heck, just use BT construction rules and then use a conversion formula (like, say, BattleForce or BattleSpace style abstracting to 1 attack number, 1 armor number, etc.)
But that's not the what makes for "Genuine ClickTech." What makes for Genuine ClickTech--and for Genuine Moolah--is minis. Unchangeable, clickable, collectable, profitable minis.
Oh, and: "Heaven forfend" is a figure of speech, and a sarcastic one at that, roughly equivalent to "God forbid..."
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Durango
07/11/02 02:01 PM
65.212.106.131
|
In reply to:
Quoting Novakitty:
MWDA is supposed to take place after a significant technology loss. Therefore, not every mech is likely to be seen, especially not custom designs. If CBT -> MW:DA conversion instructions were released, would it help either game?
As I understood it, there was no technology loss, only a loss of communications...the only reason people are taping pellet guns to their lawnmowers is because most (but not all) 'Mechs were "retired" (ie, made not available). The operative word here, is "most".
And as far as 'custom' designs, what do you think all these Agri-Mechs are, if not customized?
I'm not sure how to answer your last question. However, if your questions was "If Battletech rules for using the Mage Tech figures were released, would it help either game?", then I'd say, no. It is already too late to be mixing minis. The only thing that would result in is a replacement for Battletech, ie, those who owned large collections of OCP Mage Tech minis would be decieved in to thinking that they didn't need to buy FanPro materials to play real Battletech. They'd just buy the new suppliment for Mage Tech, and not even bother with real Battletech. This would be "A Bad Thing (tm)" for real Battletech. Less purchasing from FanPro hastens our demise.
In reply to:
If Dark Ages is meant to be an introduction to Battletech, it makes sense that players should be able to use their hard-bought, familiar units. They may (probably will) discover that the Dark Ages units are usually primitive and weak compared to 3025 mechs, thus encouraging them to go with the Classic units.
Ok, not sure who your advocating for here, on one hand it looks like you're saying that it would be good for Mage Tech to have allowed real Battletech minis into the game, then your next comment seems to point out that the result of that would be for kids to realize how much plastic sucks.
Unless you're saying that by the time they realize what a useless thing a Leafblower 'Mech is, there will be enough OCP Magetech "Classic Knockoffs" out so they can just switch to those.
Which, while it would play right into Wizkids' hands (sell more Overpriced Cheap Plastic!), it would still not be a good thing for real Battletech. (What good does it do to point out that Lawngoat is a silly piece of plastic, if they only agree with you and buy the other silly piece of plastic Spider?)
In reply to:
The above is based on my personnal observations (especially the part about people being power-hungry).
Disagree if you will, but this just may introduce a whole new sibko of munchkins to Battletech.
"This" what? What will introduce them?
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 02:11 PM
216.24.109.59
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"And as far as 'custom' designs, what do you think all these Agri-Mechs are, if not customized?"
That has been one thing I had never thought of till now, it is not like every farm boy is gonna quit plowing the fields and modify his agro mech with the same weapons. On some planets AC's may be easier to find than a LRM system. Others may have access to higher tech items such as Streaks and Gauss Rifles...so every Agromech that is modified for war is gonna be different. Of course maybe BillyBob may like JimBob's mech and trick it out similiarly, but across the worlds of war there are going to be many variants..yet how are these different mechs going to be represented by the Same Lawn Boy Clicktech Chassis?
Imagination...that has been my argument all the long while, and MW:DA is killing it for kids. No painting, no designing, heck thats half the fun if you ask me
Yes they're cheaper and yes they cater to a different crowd, but that crowd is a drooling bunch of mindless idiots who are always going to be playing with the same agromech whilst I customize my mech using creativity, something someone in WhizKids has obviously lost.
Now where was I?
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Karagin
07/11/02 02:22 PM
63.173.170.5
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As Chas has said in his counter agruements to me, they (Jordan and company) won't do this since it gives the older player to much advantage over the new ones by giving us rare mechs in droves to take on the OPC mechs.
BUT yet they are going to be comming out with rules to allow in the OPC mechs into normal BT...again it would be more profittable and better support to the fans to have it go both ways...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 02:23 PM
63.173.170.5
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Nice summary...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 02:26 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
K>Using in proxies in BT doesn't change the scale or game play...using the MWDA plastic toys does...since they are taller then the metal minis.
C>No kidding. Other than the scale conversions, what else is going to change?
Scale is enough. In fact, it's too much. But I think (before you jumped all over him) that he was merely saying that it looks retarded to use a wrong-size proxy. If you don't care about what size your proxy is, and you don't care about the game at all (which SOMEONE here seems to be evincing) then you might just as well use a StarWars action figure.
In reply to:
K> This is nice, can't use BT figures in MWDA, BUT you can use MWDA figures in BT...sorry it should work both ways.
C>Because YOU, Karagin say so right?
What you seem to be ignoring is that it is more than just Karagin who says so. As a matter of fact, I don't know if you had your head in your fourth point of contact a few months ago, but there was a massive backlash at Wizkids when we all first heard of it...or have you conveniently forgotten that by now?
What happened to all these people? Some of them bought into the marketing propoganda. Others put their resentment and anger on the shelf until such time as they could see whether or not it was justified (different marketing propoganda). Others quit in disgust at the insult. And the rest of us? We're out here, trying to stop the spin.
In reply to:
C>It's a new product with a different audience that BT enjoys.
It's a new product. It's a different audience. But I don't think that Battletech enjoys a single thing about it.
In reply to:
C>And remember that part about NOT being as much of a barrier to new players as CBT does?
You mean that line of BS that Wizkids put out to shut up the bad press they were getting from real Battletech? I think we've already seen what a lie that was. Sure, lower barrier, but it will NOT have the result of putting kids into the Battletech market. It'll put them in the MageTech pseudo-Battletech market. (IE, playing pseudo-Battletech with OVERPRICED CHEAP PLASTIC.)
In reply to:
C>Oh yes. And how are they to run click-base conversions for your mech?
They could have, at first, but they didn't want to. They wanted to sell more Overpriced Cheap Plastic.
My GOD, I have been saying this from the beginning. And I have been right, all along.
In reply to:
K> This is pointless WK is not targettng the BT crowd and it is showing.
C> Finally sinking in eh?
Yes, go ahead and gloat...the propoganda has disgusted and discouraged yet another previously loyal fan.
In reply to:
K> Another nail in the coffin for MWDA...
C>Simply because they don't aim the product at a shrinking market segment.
Because they did everything in their power (short of giving up profits) to snuff us out.
In reply to:
C> If you're expecting MW:DA to be a BT add-on, get ready for a MASSIVE disappointment.
Already been dissapointed. Nobody can see why, even though I point it out everywhere I go.
In reply to:
C> It ain't. And it won't be. Yes, some of the source material for the timeline will get translated over to CBT supplements. But the game itself isn't going to be interchangeable with CBT.
Ok what I just heard was "They're going to plagarize whatever they can use for this new pseudo-Battletech ruleset, but damned if they'll let you use your minis."
Which, of course, means that people who get started playing with Overpriced Cheap Plastic will have zero reason to buy anything from FanPro.
And you seriously argue that Mage Tech is not the death of real Battletech!
In reply to:
C> Now if you're done with your predictions of doom based on statements of the obvious, move along.
Sorry, FRIEND. I'm gonna stay right here, making sure people know what they're doing when they support this new farce. My predictions are no longer predictions...they're statements of the obvious.
Mage Tech is going to cause the death of real Battletech.
Interesting that now that it's getting so close to the release, Mage Tech advocates come right out and say (in so many words) that.
I feel like the protagonist in a movie who's been telling all the other dunderheads in the cast that the main baddie is real bad news, and all of them haven't believed me...until now.
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Karagin
07/11/02 02:48 PM
63.173.170.5
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NEWS FLASH:
Not everyone is going to play in offical tourenments, 60% of the BT games I have seen and taken part in at conventions are setup by the GM to be fun and non-offical. The other 40% are refights of the battles from a scenario pack.
For example I have been running a series of high tech mechs with crappy pilots against low tech mechs with veteran pilots to see which is going to win. The results have been varied and the battles a lot of fun.
Now is that offical? No. Doesn't have to be.
This year (in Novemeber) I am running a BT game that will have a lot of home tech weapons in it...offical no, but I can do it. Heck one of the mechs in it will be one of my CAV conversions.
Offical Tournements and games sponsered by the company should be run and set up by them or their support organizations. Thus no one can claim they didn't get a fair shake.
So saying that to allow both games to interact as I am suggesting be done here instead of just allowing MWDA to be able to transfer over to BT, is not going to make it offical is again telling the fans of BT that while it's nice to have us around, (can you buy this book cause I, Stackpole wrote it) it's clear that we are now the stepchild and a redheaded one at that.
How are you going to scale the mechs down? They are bigger then BT mechs...if you are using proxies great...but even then it's only for a few mechs, and you still try to stick to similar items, for example, once I used a salt and pepper shakers to be my two mechs one was T-bolt and the othe a S-hawk...the other guy had four light mechs and he was using thread spools. Scale fit the mechs...hence nothing else changed.
Hell even the scale of the mechs don't change when using the miniature rules. The weapons are converted to inch scale which common in a lot of wargames.
Sorry, again if they are going to allow the MWDA mechs into normal BT, then they need to have rules and converstions set up to allow the BT mechs into MWDA...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 03:04 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
K>You say it's a different, yet you have said there will rules to bring the MWDA units in to Battletech...ok two different games...sure right if you say so.
C>Okay. Stop with the stupid act(?) Karagin.
You first.
In reply to:
C> Using MW:DA figures in CBT is similar to using proxies. Except that there can be (but don't neccessarily have to be) modifications based on the scale of the MW:DA minis. Just like you could use CAV minis, etc in CBT.
Why would we do this?
In reply to:
K>IF the current miniatures, ie the metal ones, could be used in MWDA it would kill the biggest arguement against MWDA that folks have, the need to buy all new mechs.
C>Okay Karagin. How do you generate click-base stats for such a piece? Or are you just talking about proxying it for another piece that IS click-based that you already own?
It sounds to me like he's talking about a way to compromise. (But you're not interested in compromise, are you? That's ok, me neither.)
He said, that if there was a way to use the metal minis in the game, it would smooth relations between Wizkids and the previous fan base. They would not feel so put out because they had to buy all new minis (and drop ANOTHER ton of cash) to play the new game.
I think he procedes from the idea that the game doesn't have to be just for preschoolers who want to play with dolls (or (present company included) people who act like preschoolers and want to play with dolls).
To answer your question (how do you generate click-stats), ostensibly, the same way they generated click-stats for any of the other pieces. That should seem fairly obvious. The problem is that Wizkids does not WANT to do this, they're too busy churning out the next wave of Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures.
In reply to:
C> If you simply want stats for MW:DA assigned to your pre-existing CBT minis, you start out with a possibly VAST army compared to newbie players. One they'd have to make a HUGE investment in metal or MW:DA minis to duplicate.
Why should you be allowed this?
Because it'll keep your feelings from being hurt?
C'mon. A nice, rational explanation shouldn't be too tough to manage.
I don't see why you should demand something of him that you seem to be unwilling (or more likely, unable) to provide yourself.
Nevertheless, your implied problem could not exist.
Advocates of the new Mage Tech system say that there are no uber-pieces (a lie, I know) because of some point value system which "keeps the playing field level". IF Battletech minis were allowed on the field, with approved hex click-bases, they would be limited to the same point value system.
In that case, what difference would the force sizes, or how many minis I had, make?
And to further hammer my point home, you object to making new players collect a large collection...but if they play Mage Tech, they're going to end up with giant tupperware containers full of superflous units made of this Overpriced Cheap Plastic anyway.
What harm would come of letting us simply play with the minis we have, while they collect tubs of c rap?
You complain that letting us play with our existing collections would be unfair, because it would make new players buy large collections.
Well, they're going to have to anyway! Your way, WE have to buy ANOTHER large collection! The way we see it, it's not fair that WE have to buy an entire new collection. We have ALREADY PAID. Why not just let us play with the 'Mechs we have?
The answer is clear: BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY MONEY FOR WIZKIDS. And they WANT as MUCH money as they can get their hands on. And I think you feel that way for them...which further helps Karagin's implication that you have some vested personal intrest in MWDA? (That kind of hurts the idea that you can stand on the moral high ground, now doesn't it?)
Unless there's another reason...perhaps you can provide it? Something, nice, and rational...which I personally DON'T think you can manage.
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Karagin
07/11/02 03:09 PM
63.173.170.5
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Okay the outrage comes from this:
While we knew things would change over time in the universe, ie...Civil War ending, Katherine paying for her actions, Clans attacking or not...or splitting off to fight against the each other and forgoing the Clan way...all of this was unknown and speculated about, based on hints dropped in the sourcebooks and novels...
But now we know that in 3081 the beginings of the Dark Age start. We know that Katherine is not killed for her crimes, and we know that Vic wins and goes back to ComStar and he and Omi had a son.
We also know that the hinted WoB uprising happens, and it nearly wipes out the Inner Sphere.
Then there are the mechs...we are told that a several generations long peace happens and because one man scrappes his military he brings about an economic victory that forces all the others do so...and thus military grade mechs are so rare one is enough to cause a planet to surrender...man that makes the Death Star a pale second in the fear factor.
Then we see that another game's basic concepts, ie MageKnight is being applied to BT to get MWDA, some of the folks look at group playing MK and they see kids under the age of 14. Now while BT has ALWAYS been targeted to 10 year olds and up, this new game seems to go in the opposite direction.
Then the scale of the miniatures is different and they come prepackeaged to a box and you have no clue what you are getting. Meanwhile BT sold nicely with a listing of excatly what you would be getting on the back of the box, in fact you got enough to play at the smallest a lance on a lance in those box sets.
Then you have Stackpole's essays that tell the fans off in not so many words.
Adding all of this up you get a very upset fan base who are venting. Then you have those that support the game 100% arguing that those who are venting are out to kill WK and BT, just because they don't like the direction the game has gone.
What they forget is folks complained about the computer games, the cartoon, the Clans, the return of high tech, all the new mechs etc...and the game was still there and still played.
I have repeated this story before, the one about the young lad who got mad becuase when he put his lab top on the table and asked where he was suppsoe to hook to play MECHWARRIOR...and we told him this was Battletech miniatures game not the computer game, here let us show you how to play, he stormed off.
I also recall getting a good laugh during a game a con when a kid named Saul (age 12) asked how come the Clan mechs don't have built EI like they do on the cartoon. That was funniest thing I had heard said yet.
While it would be nice to see a large influx of folks into BT, the current marketing apporach and PR skills or lack of skills by WK is not helping do that, it's driving away the current fans base and polarizing what is left.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 03:12 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
Eh? Did you say something sonny?
I've got both sets. While the CityTech 'Mechs are good, they pale in comparison to the detail that the MWDA 'Mechs have. When the entire line is out people will get the full load of information. But I do understand there are those that have already killed off any idea of giving the new game a chance. That's only natural.
I have to agree with you. The plastic versions of Battletech minis (all of them) were horrid. However, for what they were supposed to be (mere counters, no different from Monopoly pieces) they were just fine.
They weren't designed to be pretty or posable. They didn't come with fashion accessories. They didn't need any glitz to be accepted...they were only pieces for the board. They merely had the advantage of being cheaper than metal, although you got what you paid for.
I think that everyone here can accept the ugly plastic 'Mechs for what they were. Right now, embroiled in this battle against the usurpers, the New Kids in Town, none of us can afford to disown even our sorriest relative.
They may have been plastic, but at least they were the correct scale, and they were accurate representations of Battlemechs. The Atlas in the Plastech set looked worlds better than this new joke of an atrocity that Wizkids offers up as the new Atlas.
In reply to:
Classic BattleTech is still here and we have something special coming very soon.....
Don't ask, because I am not going to tell....
OMG! Warner IS Death Coyote!
Or he's taking lessons in adolescent behavior from him...
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Karagin
07/11/02 03:21 PM
63.173.170.5
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Again nice summary. You gave my points a nice rewording and pointed out a lot of the things I was trying to get across.
Nice job. But I think you are correct, no one wants to listen to a compromise anymore...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 03:30 PM
63.173.170.5
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Yet it's okay to have rules and conversion tables to bring the MWDA mechs into BT scale combat...if this is so readily exceptted by the rank and file who are supporting MWDA why is it that you can't go the other way and allow the metal miniatures in to MWDA using a similar conversion that makes allowence for scale etc...?
Again the point system for MWDA would be in force, thus huge powerful army Chas fears wouldn't happen...
But it's clear that a compromise is not going to happen and the points against MWDA are really showing through as more info comes out...and I have already seen and heard reports from other who went to Origins and played MWDA, most them had the wait and see theory and none of will be taking part in the MWDA game for various reasons.
It's not a matter of supporting WK or not, it's a matter of what is fun and enteraining and offers you a challenge. And so fair Mage Tech aka MWDA doesn't offer a lot of folks that.
So here is an idea, how about you, Warner, talk to Jordon about a rule set that allows in the metal miniatures from BT to MWDA, if you care about the fan base and if he cares about the fan base, then how about giving this a lot of thought and actually giving it a shot...or are you going to dismiss this because I have been a vocale person about the game and made the dean's double secrete probahation malcontents list of BT players?
Here is a chance to unruffle some of the feathers...let me know what you think...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 04:14 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
KR>"Ok....so BT cannot be allowed in just because an eight year old screams, ITS NOT FAIR??? For 18 years I have seen players come to BT, everyone of them started with 1 or 2 minis and now some of them have built up their armies over time."
I don't believe this was the point he is making. The point, I believe, is this is a new game, it has new pieces to play this new game. The miniatures used in Classic BattleTech are not for the new game because they are out of scale and too expensive to make the new game affordable.
Ok, so let me recap, if I may. The original point was:
Why can't I use my Battletech figures in Mage Tech?
To which the response was:
Because it's not fair to make these kids buy a big collection like you already have.
Then KR said:
So we are giving in because a child screams, "It's not FAIR!"?
To which Warner replied:
That's not the point he was making, his point was that it's a new game which requires new pieces.
But I don't think that was his point at all, especially when you examine what he said:
"If you simply want stats for MW:DA assigned to your pre-existing CBT minis, you start out with a possibly VAST army compared to newbie players. One they'd have to make a HUGE investment in metal or MW:DA minis to duplicate."
It sounds to me like he's saying that it's unfair to make the kids buy a huge collection. Which makes KR's observation a valid one, and your interpretation questionable.
But as long as we're on the topic of scale, I'd like to point out that Battletech came first...therefore it is MAGE TECH which is in the WRONG SCALE. (Just had to make sure that was said.)
And as long as we're on the topic of who has to buy what in the intrest of FAIRNESS (which is an entirely moot point since our side isn't being considered, much less treated fairly), WE are being told that despite the fact we already have collections, we'll need to buy entirely new ones...as opposed to being allowed to play our existing collections.
So saying that it's not fair to make that kid buy a whole new collection...HE'S GOING TO ANYWAY, if he's going to play Mage Tech.
It's specious logic, at BEST.
In reply to:
(Paraphrasing Warner) ...it's cheaper to buy a Mage Tech collection, anyway...
So you are, in fact helping my case against Chas. You say it's cheaper to buy plastic than metal, FINE. Make that kid buy a new collection and LET OTHERS PLAY THE COLLECTIONS THEY HAVE.
"Nope, can't do that...Wizkids doesn't make money that way." That's what it's always been about, Jordan's MONEY.
In reply to:
This is what the new game is about. Being affordable,
It would be far more affordable if I didn't have to SPEND money on a NEW COLLECTION.
In reply to:
MWDA is a benefit for everyone who is willing to be open to something new.
It's a benifit to those who are making the money off it, by making people buy all new collections. Keep in mind that an open mind collects a LOT of garbage.
In reply to:
And if you don't want to play it or give it a shot, that's your choice. I will respect that. I cannot though understand how anyone can arbitrarily dismiss the new game without even giving it a really good try at it.
No, I think you can, you just don't want to sympathize with it...it would interfere with your other vested interest. You do things like paint them with a brush of discontent, label them as upstarts not worthy of listening to, then you compartmentalize them and dismiss them without a second thought. That makes it much easier for you. If you ignore them, they don't exist, right? If you label them as unworthy of response, then they don't have a point, right? If you can't hear them then you don't need to feel guilty by association, right, Warner?
In reply to:
Just the choice if you want to support WizKids or not. That's what it comes down to ultimately!
Yeah. And we know which camp you're in.
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Durango
07/11/02 04:34 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
D>"the scale and the minis are what makes it Geniune Battletech."
NK>No. That's MWDA's whole point: the minis make the game.
And I say that's bunk. Battletech can be played with 1 piece of paper, 1 pencil, and 1D6. What does it take to play MWDA? A box of plastic? Some fancy dials? But that's not the worst of it. The single--and I do mean single--factor that keeps me interested in Battletech (the game, not the universe) is the fact that you can make your own units. That's not just part of the BT experience, that is the BT experience. That's the key to the game.
That's what makes it fun.
...
But that's not the what makes for "Genuine ClickTech." What makes for Genuine ClickTech--and for Genuine Moolah--is minis. Unchangeable, clickable, collectable, profitable minis.
I thought about it again. And customization is a big part of Battletech. But through the years, the one thing which remained constant was the scale. Battletech is a Z-scale game, using Z-scale minis.
These people who use saltshakers, pennies, pieces of paper...I just don't think I'd have been nearly as interested in Battletech if it weren't for the minis. If forced to use paper, I'd have just stuck with Star Fleet Battles. Hex map, sheets of paper, and paper markers. But the minis, to me, make it Battletech.
And Battletech is in Z-SCALE. The minis are not DOLLS.
Mage Tech is in TOY-scale. The minis are DOLLS. Might as well just go buy a bunch of Matchbox cars to suppliment your collection.
In reply to:
Oh, and: "Heaven forfend" is a figure of speech, and a sarcastic one at that, roughly equivalent to "God forbid..."
Never heard of it. Must be a midwest thing.
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Karagin
07/11/02 04:37 PM
63.173.170.112
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Right, it's my fault that one kid can't tell a computer game from a minis game and HE got upset that we weren't play the computer.
Hell we offered to show him how to play but he won't stick around. So Zippy please tell me how I am treating him like crap? We the 7 off us playing the game were willing to teach him...sorry but if anyone is wrong in this case it's the guy for leaving mad.
As for young Saul, he WAS PLAYING THE GAME WHEN HE MADE HIS COMMENT.
Let me set something straight for you so you can drop this idea that I treat new players like crap thought line you have.
If someone comes over to the table and asks what game is being played I tell them, if they seem to know what is going on I ask if they have signed up for any of other BT games, if they haven't then I ask if they have a spare moment or so and would like to fight a battle. If they have never heard of the game I give them a quick run down on the game explaining what is going and who is one what side etc...PLUS everyone I play with does this. We DON'T ignore or ridicaule a new player. We are more then happy to get them into the game.
Hell, my best friend Jon Pehrson, editor of Future Wars, has given up his slot in a game so a new person could play and learn. But you seem to think we treat the computer gamers and cartoon folks like trash...funny I don't recall saying that we did...nice conculsion you drew there.
As for folk being wrong about the computer game/cartoon hurting BT...well we had munchkins before and they only grew with those avenues of marketing... 
In reply to:
Zippy wrote: That's a common misconception. Mechs were not scrapped. Privately owned mechs (the hereditary mechwarrior lines) were bought off. Standing armies still exist, and the ratio of mechs to vehicles is higher in the booster packs than it is in CBT (in CBT, the ratio is way more than 2 vehicles per mech).
Here, let me quote their site:
"As the Republic’s prosperity booms, the rest of the Great Houses follow suit until BattleMechs have become exceptionally rare except among the military or the propertied nobility." *bold added by me for emphasis
No misconception, the mass military industrial base was scraped, thus as I said...mechs are rare.
In reply to:
Zippy wrote: How is this a problem? They're reaching younger people who probably wouldn't have picked up Battletech on their own anyway. At least MW:DA has a chance to hook them on the setting which could concievably encourage them to pick up CBT later on (especially when they realize how much cheaper is is ).
Let's see, they get to play the game with their own out of scale mechs, converted over to a smaller scale setting with 90% level 3 items...right not a problem. 
Now I hope I cleared up your misunderstanding as to how my group and I treat people. Hell given the way the current fan base is being treated by WK is it any wonder why folks are upset?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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