Karagin
07/11/02 04:40 PM
63.173.170.112
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And thus they alienate a large chunk of the current fan base by not listen to us...gotta love that.
Time to vote with the only thing WK seems to listen, what you buy and what you don't buy...
Gee one last thing a conversion set up need only be a few pages long, not an entire book here, but hey what are a few pages...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 04:48 PM
63.173.170.112
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You have once again missed the point. It's about keeping the fan base happy.
Jordan has all of us who play BT in his pocket he knows this, now knowing that, would it not make sense to sell the MWDA to us as well? What better way then for us to spread the word and spend extra money it then have a way for us to come into with ease...a simple conversion rule set for our current mechs and the use of the metal miniatures,or card board counter, and some generic click dials that we could use for the mechs, still keep true to the rarity of the mechs and the point system in use in MWDA...
What is so hard about seeing the promise and easy of this? It would kill a lot of the complaining in some areas and might even allow more of the folks who have said no to MWDA have second thought...
In results, Jordan makes money by keeping the current fan base and gain the new market and thus we can get them hooked on BT, thus he makes more money as they go out and get the BT stuff as well.
I don't see any waste here...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 04:54 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
(Zippy sets Durango straight on the new Mage Tech Fantasy Story, suggests further research at Wizkiddies website)
Thanks for the update, and the advice. I probably won't take your advice, as I have no intrest in the story or the game beyond telling other people that it's going to be the death of real Battletech.
In reply to:
D>> No. If you're playing with Magetech figures, you are NOT playing Battletech. You are playing Mage Tech, with Battletech rules (and with these new rules, who's to say they'll even be Battletech rules? They'll probably be pseudo-Battletech). The scale and the minis are what makes it Geniune Battletech. Playing with oversized dollies is NOT playing Battletech. (Else, you may just as well use Barbie dolls as proxies. "I'm going to hit him with my PPC!" (Holds up hairdryer.))
Z>Feh, I've played with coins, legomen, and torn out bits of notebook paper. Does that make it any less Battletech? The record sheets are what makes the unit, not the mini (which is just a marker showing position and facing).
Even the official tournament rules don't force you to play with the correct mini for all of your units.
No? Do they make you play with Battletech minis, at least? My point was merely that I won't play with other than Battletech minis, and people who use Mage Tech minis in their games may as well save their money and use their Luck Skywalker Dolls instead. Esthetically the same durn thing. It looks just as moronic.
In reply to:
D>> "We're making it so you don't have to buy metal to play Battletech"
You have never had to "buy metal" to play battletech. You just need a mapsheet (or other appropriate terrain), some markers, record sheets, and access to the rules (boxed set rulebook, compendium, BMR, etc). Note that the boxed set (which included everything you need to play) did not include metal. It had cardboard cutouts (or plastic in one edition)
And again, my point was that designing pseudo-Battletech rules for Mage Tech figures will remove any incentive they might have to start playing real Battletech. Why buy all new pieces when you can play the same game with your existing pieces?
In reply to:
D>> Which, by the way, if they're going to make the game playable by real Battletech rules, most people will leave the rest of their c rap at home, and play with JUST THE MECHS...THAT'S what Battletech IS.
That's what your interpretation of Battletech is. I've been playing with combined arms for years, as have many others I know. Don't try to tell me that because my personal preference doesn't coincide with yours and the groups you play with that I am not playing Battletech.
And to reiterate my point, removing the incentive to buy FanPro materials is a bad thing.
In reply to:
D>> WHO AGREES WITH ME? I say, "If you're playing in the wrong scale with Mage Tech Posable Action Figures, you're not playing Battletech". Who agrees?
Not I. BMR already includes one set of alternate scale rules (mapsheet/hex versus terrain/inch). It's not that hard to adjust the distances involved. I've always operated under the opinion that it was the record sheets and rules that made battletech, not the minis (some of the more fervent battetechers I know don't even own any minis, just the piles and piles of supplements). Some people don't have the time, talent, money, or inclination to assemble metal, but that doesn't mean they have less love of the game.
Well, that's two people who say the game is in the rules and recordsheets, not the minis or the scale. Which reduces my fervor not in the least. I STILL say that if you're playing Mage Tech, you're not playing Battletech.
So just curious, will you be buying Mage Tech minis, making record sheets for them (L3) and then playing them with real Battletech rules?
In reply to:
D>> That's because I have been looking at it closely. And I don't like what I see. There is a trend, it is towards the extinction of real Battletech. Anyone who plays this Mage Tech is helping in the extinction.
Z>I remember hearing this same cry from RPGers worried that the CCG trend was going to kill RPGs. Didn't see that happen.
RPG's in general have been huge for a long time, not endangered like Battletech is. I would also like to say, that I see more Magic:The Addiction games scheduled in the local shops...when there used to be mostly D&D and Shadowrun games. But, we shall see. And when I turn out to be right, it will be a hollow "I told you so."
In reply to:
D>> Of the people I talk to, anyway...using Infantry, vehicles, aero is not common. They play Battletech with 'Mechs.
That's a valid force deployment. Not the only force deployment, or even the most effective in alot of cases. Don't assume that everyone else plays that way. People I've played with often use combined arms. To each their own.
My point was that it was the most common "valid force deployment" that I see. The Default Force Deployment.
In reply to:
D>> Nope. Because neither one will last that long. Want to bet?
It especially won't if people attack it before it's even released. Especially when the attackers don't even have all the information (especially true of attacks on the fiction).
Bah. I will help it die, true. But it won't even need my help. And fiction, bah, who cares? If it's a terrible game all the fiction in the world won't save it. Besides, if I don't have enough information, that can only help my cause, right? Especially to the uninitiated. "Oh, this game sucks, the universe is all screwed up, and the plastic is cheap..."  Sounds like I have my opening line.
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Durango
07/11/02 05:09 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
K>> As Chas has said in his counter agruements to me, they (Jordan and company) won't do this since it gives the older player to much advantage over the new ones by giving us rare mechs in droves to take on the OPC mechs.
Z>It does, he's right you know. In MW:DA the minis make the game...
Ok, waitaminute. Either there ARE uber-pieces or there AREN'T uber pieces. If it's true that the point-value system keeps a level playing field, then what does it matter which pieces you have?
If I field 4 Shadowhawks, combined point value 200 points, then that guy can whip out an equal point value of Overpriced Plastic C rap Mechs...dig into his tupperware for enough infantry, vehicles and Toro-'Mechs, and the game is even again.
You make it sound like I can flood the table with minis, I win! But to play by the rules, you CAN'T.
So Chas is WRONG, you know, and it DOESN'T.
If Wizkids had wanted to, they could have made it so we could play our existing collections. They didn't want to, they don't want anything to do with us. Oh, sure, they'll sell us thier c rap so we can play Btech, but you think they'd find a way to let us play our existing collections in a Wizkids game? Not interested...no discussion, no options. Not interested. Buzz off.
Well, that's the way I feel about Mage Tech. No, wait. It's not enough that we're even. I want them to fail.
In reply to:
Besides, have you thought of how hard it might be for them to come up with MW:DA click stats for every possible CBT unit, much less play test them all for balance?
Did they even try? Has anyone over there discussed it? I'll bet they did. I'll bet it went something like, "NO. Not gonna happen. We don't make any MONEY if they play their existing collections."
They won't even try, they won't even sanction an effort by someone else to do it. Y'know why? No money in it. (Or not enough to trip that "Greed" switch, anyway.)
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Chas
07/11/02 05:12 PM
66.187.6.95
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If you think that the mechs look cheesy, that's something I can't argue. Arguing personal preference is an exercise in futility.
As to not being able to re-paint? Actually, if you're of a mind to, you CAN strip and repaint these minis. It's just a question of how far do you want to go.
Also, as the report states, they're looking into options for fan-paintable minis in the future. They're starting with MageKnight because it's a somewhat easier tool-up period for that line.
As to no imagination and creativity?
That's where tactical exercise from the game itself comes in.
Personally, I paint like crap. My hands shake way too much to do a decent (or even bad) job. So pre-painted minis like this are nice for someone who would either wind up in really UGLY paintjobs, flat solid jobs, or unpainteds.
"Corporate America wants...."
Sorry. I always have trouble keeping a straight face when someone starts telling us what "Corporate America" wants.
And if someone is willing to spend their money to buy $100 ultra-rare pieces, more power to them. I'll just points match them with "lesser" units. Then I'll have a nice laugh at their expense for confusing rare with "unbeatable". Which they aren't.
Yes. If you HAVE to have a SPECIFIC unit layout, it could be expensive for you. But for for entry-level play, the game is quite inexpensive.
And hey. If you're an old man, I'm every bit as old. I've always bought all my gaming material out of my own pocket. I didn't get an allowance. I worked from the time I could legally hold down a job.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 05:19 PM
66.187.6.95
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Ok....so BT cannot be allowed in just because an eight year old screams, ITS NOT FAIR???
No. The minis cannot be allowed n because it ISN'T fair.
It's a separate game. Can you import you BT minis into WH40K?
How could it be even remotely fair that WizKids allows figs from another game to be used in their game? Even if the two are based in the same fictional universe? Especially when the game mechanics of the older of the two games has no provisions for fitting into the new game.
Grow up kis, life ain't fair.
And I could say the same thing to those who want to import CBT minis into MW:DA.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 05:23 PM
63.173.170.112
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Let me parapharse:
Stone get's rid of his military and the results are an ecomonic boon that FORCES THE OTHER STATES TO DO THE SAME TO KEEP UP WITH HIM.
Now let again point out that makes combat mechs RARE.
Enough said since the above comes from their "factoid" releases on the background of MWDA and has made the rounds on all the message boards more then once.
On the new player issue yes we laughed at Saul, then someone point out that it was fluff for the cartoon, Saul laughed and is still playing BT. Seems that he can take a little good natured ribbing...I could have told you about all the stories I have heard from folks who I trust, about kids wanting to do things they saw on the cartoon like firing everything they over and over in the same turn etc...and they came in from the Cartoon...but I didn't, I went with the one I knew most folks would see a single comment that could be dealt with and the person stays in the game. Unlike the young lad who would not even take the time to learn a new game.
As for Saul feeling welcome or not, isn't the point, he signed up for the game, was enjoying himself and made some friends that day...you tell me if he felt welcome? And if you believe laughing at a comment is going to cause some to leave a game then you my friend and I mean this as advice only need not wear your feelings on your sleave.
The three times in all of my years of playing this game have I seen anyone get made enough to leave a game. Two were cheaters and one was the young lad I mentioned earlier.
Ribbing and other banter are all part of the game you learn to take it in stride and you can see that no one means anything personal behind it. Or is your group different?
Level 3 items are Level 3 items. Buzzsaws, claws etc...are all level 3 and I don't see that changing. So no I don't see any off those becoming standard any time soon.
News Flash:
BT is the stepchild...MWDA is the "Golden Child" which one is going to get 99.9% of the time and effort of WK creative team if it sells as predicted?
I think it's safe to say that MWDA will be the ONLY concern at WK and BT will be tossed once it's usfullness is gone.
And as I said, since Jordan wants a more money and a selling game it would make sense to have the older BT players there helping with that effort then pushing us to the side...but I can see that you are fully behind this new game.
I hope you enjoy it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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rock
07/11/02 05:26 PM
64.12.96.167
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Wow, beautifully said!!
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rock
07/11/02 05:41 PM
64.12.96.167
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Compromise??? Based on what I have seen/read from various different 'discussion sites' there is to be "NO Grumblings" at all.
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Chas
07/11/02 06:14 PM
66.187.6.95
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How much more do you know?
*Holds up NDA*
No comment.
I believe that the purpose behind making new rules is so people can play with the Mage Tech minis, exclusively. Just to further clarify, I believe that the reason behind this is so Jordan can distance his game from the real Battletech. The reason he wants to do this is because he wants HIS Overpriced Cheap Plastic to sell, and not the metal minis. He makes less from royalties than he does from direct sales.
No. It's simply if you WANT to play with MW:DA figs, you CAN. You're not going to be forced to use MW:DA figs to the exclusion of the metal minis.
As to overpriced. Look at the prices of your metal minis again. And look at what you get in a starter and a booster for MW:DA. Then tell me about "overpriced"
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Yes. I'm merely telling you you're wrong.
CBT is going to continue. WizKids and FanPro feel that there is still money to be made there. They also feel there is money to be made with MW:DA. They aren't trying to poison one in favor of the other. It's senseless.
If you play MW:DA and CBT, or just MW:DA, or just CBT they don't care. As long as you're playing at LEAST one of them instead of someone ELSE'S games.
No. If you're playing with Magetech figures, you are NOT playing Battletech. You are playing Mage Tech, with Battletech rules (and with these new rules, who's to say they'll even be Battletech rules?
BZZT. Wrong answer. If you're playing with some variation of CBT miniatures rules with MW:DA figs, you're playing CBT. NOT MW:DA.
The game is the rules set. Not the proxy pieces used. Granted, MW:DA figs have game information on the bases. But you cannot play MW:DA without the MW:DA rules. And the data on the bases is meaningless in a CBT game. It's merely a black plastic base.
Just like the CBT Macrotures evevent at Origins (put on by Armorcast) is still CBT. Simple scale means two things.
Jack and squat.
That's because I have been looking at it closely. And I don't like what I see.
Your arguments point to you having NOT looked closely. And if you don't like what you see. FINE. Nobody's forcing you to buy the figs or play MW:DA. Stick with CBT. It really is quite that simple.
There is a trend, it is towards the extinction of real Battletech.
Excuse me. I thought I saw a <Grassy Knoll> oir <Area51> tag in there. Any "trends" you see are purely constructs in your imagination. There is no big bad conspiracy to kill CBT and deprive you of your minis.
Detail? What, you mean because they make the grooves in the plastic deeper? There is detail in metal minis, and it can be brought out easily by anyone competent enough to hold a paintbrush.
Apparently you didn't read the report as you claimed. Most CBT minis have between 1 and 6 pieces. Some of the minis in MW:DA have up to 28 pieces.
So MW:DA figs simply have more detailed renderings of units than CBT was capable of. They're more complex.
If you can't acknowledge that, I can't help you.
Depends...is it a collectible (meaning, I have to buy tons of c rap before I get what I want) system? In that case, it'd be horribly expensive
At the size and level of detail present in the MW:DA minis, a mech would probably cost 2-3 times what a CBT figure does now. At least. That's assuming some of what can be done in plastic can even be replicated in spin-cast metal. E-mail Iron Wind and ask them how much duplicating the CBT minis would cost them.
As to the collectible market. You keep ignoring the fact that the secondary market is an entirely OPTIONAL enterprise. If you wish to participate in it. You can. If you don't, you don't HAVE TO. What about this is so difficult to understand?
The "starter" and "booster" set are full of superflous, redundant, and REPETITIVE non-necessary pieces, put there for the exclusive purpose of selling more Overpriced Cheap Plastic.
Yet the starters and the boosters are relatively inexpensive ways to start and build a decent army.
A set of mechs, vehicles, and infantry in CBT, equivallent to what you get in a $20 starter pack would cost you between $24-32.
A $9 booster pack is equivallent to a $18-24 in CBT minis.
Of the people I talk to, anyway...using Infantry, vehicles, aero is not common. They play Battletech with 'Mechs.
*Bangs*
*Head*
*Off*
*Wall*
No kidding. This, yet again, points to why MW:DA is a different game. It focuses more on combined arms. Infantry units and vehicles ARE more important in MW:DA. If you just want to mash-mech, stick with CBT.
The public has a right to be COUNTER-spun.
Yup. Even if the person doing the spinning doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Or is simply being malicious because it gets him off.
I don't have to have any experience
Thanks for at least admitting this.
everything I said can be gleaned from reading Mike's own words.
Just like some people misinterpret the US Constitution.
Ok, this is not the first time that someone has tried to involve facts.
I know. It's really hard to argue against factual data isn't it. Doesn't stop some people from trying though.
You're implying that WizKids is stating that if you don't have MW:DA figs, you won't be able to play CBT after a while. This is patently wrong. You simply will not be able to play MW:DA.
As for those people who want to switch scale...I'm sure there will be those people. I'm also wondering what would cause a person who has hundreds of dollars in real Battletech to switch to playing with dolls.
Simply because they want to collect all things BT-related.
Because they want to use the figs in lieu of traditional CBT minis (like you can in Armorcast macroture events).
Because they want figures that can be used in two games instead of just one.
Or for any combination of the reasons above, or for reasons I have not stated.
And proxies in a strictly Battletech match, that's nothing unusual...but using a Battletech mini in a Mage Tech game, or vice versa? Mismatched, wrong scale, looks silly. Not to mention, IT HAS NO CLICK BASE...but you already knew this, right?
Way to keep track of your arguments!
Of course you cannot play MW:DA with CBT figs. Yet the reverse is not true.
Get over it.
I know that. That's been my beef all along. Why didn't they make the game in the correct scale?
Hmm. Tough one. But I'll take a stab at it.
Maybe BECAUSE IT IS A DIFFERENT GAME?
Maybe because they wanted to up the scale to provide more details in the minis than was possible at the CBT scale.
Maybe because they wanted to keep from confusing new players as to which pieces could be used in the MW:DA game?
Nah! Those are too easy! Sounds too much like sensible thought!
don't want us playing Battletech, they want us playing Mage Tech.
If WizKids didn't want us playing CBT, CBT would not exist right now. Capisce?
So aggressive! Ok, to answer your first question, why should I have to?
Responding to a question with another question is no answer.
Basically your whole line of "reasoning" is based on "because I want it to be this way".
Talk to Mick Jagger. He'll tell you.
But the reason why they made it different was so people COULDN'T mix minis. First, a Battletech mini would wipe up the board with these cheapo knock-offs, and second, people playing with plastic and metal could not HELP but notice how superiour the quality of metal is to plastic, and how the metal figures look sooooo much better than plastic.
Uhm. You DO realize that the minis are little more than elaborate counters, don't you? Maybe not. Otherwise I wouldn't have gotten a "My mini could beat up your mini" argument.
Again, one of us is not getting it.
Whoa! No kidding?
In one way, though, I agree with you. Magetech is a poor replacment for real Battletech.
Oh well. Hope is, again, dashed.
Maybe if I restate it for the umpteenth time it'll sink in.
****MW:DA is NOT a replacement for CBT.****
Because neither one will last that long. Want to bet?
If you want to get in on the short end of a sucker bet like this, more power to you.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 06:24 PM
66.187.6.95
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No, what it would do is allow the older players to get into the new game with what they already have
Why should they?
If you want to talk about something how you stop with baiting and try looking at things from both sides.
Your first mistake is assuming I have not looked at this issue from all sides.
As I have said before, folks will find something that they don't like because each person as different tastes and likes.
And as I've said before. Nobody's twisting these people's arm to buy product or participate.
Now for stats for the metal minis in MWDA....should be to hard to come up with them since one could look at what a similar weighted unit has and go from there.
Ah. Another assumption.
Now you and the others feel that the older players have to many mechs and mechs that would clean the board of the "newer" Dark Age mechs, that may be the case, but would not the rules dealing with rare mechs prevent said stampdee?
How do you make rules, in a collectible game, to prevent someone from using what they already have?
But as I said, if Jordan wanted the older fans
That's just it. This is not about wanting the older fans. This is about making a game that stands on it's own merits.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 06:50 PM
63.173.170.123
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If you say you have looked at from both sides, then great, but based on your postings it's clear which side you have taken. No assumptions there.
As for MWDA having merit...where? It uses BT's background, it uses BT mechs and other units, it has the same weapons as does BT...in all shapes and colors it's BT with a new name. So there is no merit...the game is a mixing of Mage Knight combat system and Battletech background and termiology.
So don't try to push the "story" that MWDA has it's own merit...not when we have been told REPEATEDLY by those in the know that two games will merge via a shared story line.
Get rid of that part and you might a new game that has merit but not until.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 06:52 PM
66.187.6.95
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Scale is enough In fact, it's too much.
Problem is, if you're using miniatures rules, there's already scale conversions.
Again. It's not the minis that make CBT. It's the rules and the record sheets.
What you seem to be ignoring is that it is more than just Karagin who says so.
So just because 100 (or 1000) people hold the same opinion, that makes them right?
but there was a massive backlash at Wizkids when we all first heard of it
No? REALLY? It's not like I didn't report on it at GenCon 2001.
It's not like I haven't been arguing about this for over a year now.
We're out here, trying to stop the spin.
If you say so. It sounds more like disgruntled griping because the world doesn't work the way you think it ought to, to me.
And "quit in disgust at the insult"?
It's a GAME for chrissakes. You know. A hobby. A passtime. It's not like it was your kid or something.
But I don't think that Battletech enjoys a single thing about it.
You're free to THINK whatever you want. Just as I'm free to tell you when you're wrong.
Sure, lower barrier, but it will NOT have the result of putting kids into the Battletech market.
And you know this HOW?
They could have, at first, but they didn't want to.
What would have been the point? It would then have merely been an adjunct to the CBT game. Take a look at what happened to other adjuncts.
BattleTroops
AeroTech
CityTech
Solaris7
BattleSpace
All of them pretty much BOMBED.
WK already had a basic game mechanic in click-base that was selling VERY well. Why sit there and slap together something else?
My GOD, I have been saying this from the beginning. And I have been right, all along.
Don't mind the guffawing. That's just me laughing at your delusions of self-importance.
Yes, go ahead and gloat...the propoganda has disgusted and discouraged yet another previously loyal fan.
You're loyal?
Pfft.
Because they did everything in their power (short of giving up profits) to snuff us out.
Yeah. They're trying to snuff CBT. That's why they licensed it out for continued development and expansion.
Nobody can see why, even though I point it out everywhere I go
So you run around going "It isn't CBT! It isn't CBT!" and be thanked for it?
Well thank you Captain Obvious, but we already KNEW that.
Ok what I just heard was "They're going to plagarize whatever they can use for this new pseudo-Battletech ruleset, but damned if they'll let you use your minis."
What plagiaism? They own the IP for the universe and game systems.
Which, of course, means that people who get started playing with Overpriced Cheap Plastic will have zero reason to buy anything from FanPro.
If they only want to play MW:DA? You're right.
If they begin getting drawn into the universe more and want to play a game with more depth? Then they get pointed to CBT.
Sorry, FRIEND.
Well. First off, I'm NOT your friend. I don't know you. And, from your conduct here and elsewhere, I probably don't want to. So cut the smarmy BS.
I'm gonna stay right here, making sure people know what they're doing when they support this new farce.
If you behave yourself, you'll stay here. If you want to rant and rave and proclaim the end of the world, that's up to you. Have fun.
Interesting that now that it's getting so close to the release, Mage Tech advocates come right out and say (in so many words) that
Where have they said this? C'mon. A few simple links to this stuff shouldn't be beyond you.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 06:59 PM
63.173.170.123
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First, if he get's ride of the private market and cuts back on the military then everying I said is still true. COMBAT MECHS are RARE. End of Story. Seeing how we are BOTH saying the same damn thing.
Saul was ALREADY PLAYING BT, he was in the game on the same side as I was fighting to stop the Clans from taking an oil field. He made his comment, we all laughed at it and commented and NO ONE had their feelings hurt. The point was to show that ideas and gimmicks and such from the other Market areas of BT, can and do have an effect on the game. For example the MAD CAT Mk2...a computer mech we are no stuck with. Saul's comment on the EI from the cartoon all show that the stuff there can become something that is recalled and asked about or wanted in the game. Sometimes it's good to add in new things, other's it's not. 90% of the stuff from the cartoon was bunk, the 10% we are stuck with well worthless but hey it's still here.
The other point is while the market that might be interested in MWDA is going to compare it to what? Not Battletech, no they are going to compare it to the computer game.
So again I point out having a way to bring the current fans of BT into the MWDA fully and with their miniatures, would go a long way to showing the new market audience that there are two games they can play and look you can play both with pieces you already have from EITHER GAME.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:06 PM
66.187.6.95
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But you're not interested in compromise, are you? That's ok, me neither.
That's because I'm not the game manufacturer. I don't have to be interested in compromise.
You get to say "I want things the way I want."
I get to tell you "Tough Cookies."
He said, that if there was a way to use the metal minis in the game, it would smooth relations between Wizkids and the previous fan base.
But there isn't. Such a compromise would seriously unbalance the game in favor of CBT players with large armies of non-MW:DA minis.
Advocates of the new Mage Tech system say that there are no uber-pieces (a lie, I know) because of some point value system which "keeps the playing field level". IF Battletech minis were allowed on the field, with approved hex click-bases, they would be limited to the same point value system.
The problem is, there's disincentives to translate CBT minis over.
1: Lack of control over the minis.
2: The necessity to begin production of expensive source book material so people have to track not only MW:DA figs, but CBT figs (some of which are OOP) as well. And how many CBT figs are there?
3: Again, the fact that this gives an enormous advantage to players who already have large standing collections of CBT minis.
We have ALREADY PAID. Why not just let us play with the 'Mechs we have?
So, because you have invested lots of money, you should be able to use the figs in other games (like proxying them as an entire Eldar Army in WH40K)?
Why?
The answer is clear: BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY MONEY FOR WIZKIDS.
Since when was WizKids, or FanPro, or even FASA a charity? Why should they not have expectations of making money off their hard work?
Do YOU go to work every day and tell your boss "that's okay, you don't need to pay me today".
That giant faceless corporation you seem to think it is, is really a fairly small game development company with a few dozen employees and several contractors. All of whom expect to be paid for their work.
Yet you want them to simply freebie you for something they didn't make a cent off of?
If anyone's being greedy here, it's you.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 07:07 PM
66.187.6.95
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Why should you receive a stake in a game you have made no investment in?
Because you made an investment in another game?
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 07:11 PM
66.187.6.95
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You ever heard the term "It takes all kinds."?
It doesn't matter WHY they're involved in the game. Or how they came about being involved.
Merely that they ARE involved.
Save your elitism for someone who cares.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:12 PM
63.173.170.123
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Again considering BOTH games have the same storyline and same over combat units...yes.
And a lot of us have made an investment...since we have bought all of the products with name Battletech on them and still do.
Or is that not enough? You don't have to answer that, it's already been answered by WK and their marketing pitch.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:12 PM
66.187.6.95
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So they should listen to you and flush time, effort, and money down the toilet and come up with a way for you to play their game without actually having to invest in the game.
Riiiight.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 07:13 PM
66.187.6.95
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Which fan base?
The ones who recognize that MW:DA is a game in it's own right and choose to play or not play?
Or those who don't seem to understand that MW:DA in a separate game in it's own right and want something for nothing.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 07:15 PM
66.187.6.95
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I have no intrest in the story or the game beyond telling other people that it's going to be the death of real Battletech.
Thanks for getting that out in the open.
At least it's more truthful than referring to yourself as a "fan" of BattleTech.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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novakitty
07/11/02 07:16 PM
209.242.100.230
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On the topic of minis, I for one could not use them like some do. My typical match consists of a few friends making designs, according to whatever we agree upon, and me printing out a few FASA designs of similar tonnage and tech base. We play this way because my group has at least as much fun designing a mech as they do playing. We can represent anything with the little, grey, plastic mechs that came in the 3rd edition box or some loose change.
If you use pre-made mechs enough that a mini is an effective use of money, good. If you buy a mini because it looks cool, good. If you do not use minis, it does not truly detract from the game any.
meow
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:19 PM
63.173.170.123
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Okay that's it.
The only elitism is from you, Warner, Chunga and the rest who have belittled and attack anyone who has not fallen down in awe over MWDA.
IT is folks like you and them and your current fanaticism over how great MWDA is that is driving folks away.
Someone disagrees with you so you treat them like crap and ridicule them. Yet claim to see both side of the issue. Sorry all you and the others are Hypocrites.
If you actually wanted the issues to end then you and others would stop with insults and other crap. So far all you have done is attack me and belittle me bacause I feel MWDA is going to hurt BT more then help.
So go one with your commenting, in the end you and the others will do far more damage then those that are part of the so call Conspiracy To Bring Down Battletech And WK can ever do.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:20 PM
66.187.6.95
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In short.
You cannot use CBT minis or CBT rules to play MW:DA.
However, you CAN use CBT mini rules with MW:DA minis (and some scale translations) to play CBT with MW:DA figs.
Basically, Karagin and Durango are griping that they want to be able to use CBT figs to play MW:DA, and they want WizKids to work up stats for CBT figs. For free. Just because they have large investments in CBT figs.
Since WizKids isn't stupid enough to do this (which would destroy their business model), they're going up in a hail of flames and complaints.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:20 PM
63.173.170.123
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Both.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:23 PM
63.173.170.123
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Once more, the idea is to allow the fan base of both to grow...and seeing how MWDA uses a lot of the BT tech and terms would it not be better for the new players to see a full blown supporting from the older players? Yes I think it would and the best way to do that is to make a small allowence for the older players and their collections of miniatures...but I can see this is falling on deaf ears and you have made up your mind and are doing nothing but attacking folks now...
So have fun.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:27 PM
66.187.6.95
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If you say you have looked at from both sides, then great, but based on your postings it's clear which side you have taken. No assumptions there.
It shouldn't be any surprise where I come down at on this issue. If it is, you haven't actually read my posts.
But that's not the same thing as not understanding where you're coming from. I simply disagree with your arguments.
It uses BT's background
Correction. CBT and MW:DA share the same fictional universe. But CBT != BT Universe.
CBT and MW:DA are game systems. The universe is something separate. The games would both stand alone either way, simply with different fluff text.
So there is no merit
Fine. Don't buy it.
Just stop wanting to play it with CBT minis.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 07:28 PM
66.187.6.95
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So basically you're crying because they won't give you the means to bypass their business model for free?
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:29 PM
63.173.170.123
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I have no plans on buy ANYTHING that has the MWDA tag line on it.
And if I want to support an effort to get the BT miniatures allowed into I will and if I want to talk about that I will.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:32 PM
63.173.170.123
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I really like how you can break the rules around here...but that is another issues...
No I am not crying at all. It just proves the points against the game more and more when someone who is well know to have contact with and is in full support of Jordan basically tells the fans to make a choice cause you can only play one game with one set of miniature, but the older and better game can be played with both and nothing anyone suggests is going to change it.
The only crying I will be doing is when I am laugh so hard I can't help cry at how lousy this wanna be Warhammer/Mage Knight game does in the stores.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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