Reportage from Origins: MW:DA Seminar

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Warner_Doles
07/12/02 05:13 PM
206.27.48.9

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CLICK HERE

If you will not do that.... then here you go:
In reply to:

Contact Us
WizKids LLC
15821 NE 8th Street, Suite 100
Bellevue, WA 98008
(vox) 425-641-2801
(fax) 425-641-6071

Sales, ray@wizkidsgames.com
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Rules and Gameplay Questions:
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HeroClix, judge@wizkidsgames.com
Web Page, maya@wizkidsgames.com


You were saying? Ah yes..

Turn my cheek again...

repeat as necessary...

enjoy it as best you can...

...brother in Christ...

Warner_Doles
07/12/02 05:24 PM
206.27.48.9

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I should never had made that request.

I withdraw it now.

*Turns already bruised cheek*

Thank you my brother in Christ...

Durango
07/12/02 06:04 PM
65.212.106.131

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In reply to:

D> How much more do you know?

C>*Holds up NDA*

C>No comment.



Ah, would that you would do that more often. How peaceful it would be! Blissful, even!

In reply to:

D>I believe that the purpose behind making new rules is so people can play with the Mage Tech minis, exclusively. Just to further clarify, I believe that the reason behind this is so Jordan can distance his game from the real Battletech. The reason he wants to do this is because he wants HIS Overpriced Cheap Plastic to sell, and not the metal minis. He makes less from royalties than he does from direct sales.

C>No. It's simply if you WANT to play with MW:DA figs, you CAN. You're not going to be forced to use MW:DA figs to the exclusion of the metal minis.



Of course not. Nobody's being forced to do anything! But I think you are avoiding (deliberately?) my point. Perhaps, if you don't mind, you can paraphrase it for me. If you can't then I guess I will have to start all over again, so that you can read it and maybe address it next time.


In reply to:

C> As to overpriced. Look at the prices of your metal minis again. And look at what you get in a starter and a booster for MW:DA. Then tell me about "overpriced"



What does it cost to make that mini? Pennies? What do they sell it for? Dollars? That's what I mean by overpriced. It's a rip-off. It's like the record companies...they pay the artist pennies on the dollar for a tune, write it once and crank it out by the thousands. A blank CD can cost...what...a buck? You pay FIFTEEN TIMES that when you buy the CD. Rip-off.

All perfectly legal of course...but it is still reprehensible.

I haven't purchased a CD in...oh, years! And if I download an MP3, then I don't feel a single pang of guilt...the record companies have made their money from it already, hundreds of times over.

At least the metal figures cost more to make and that's why you pay slightly more...but then you get what you pay for.

Besides, I LIKE paying more, because I know EXACTLY what mini I'm getting...not like this legalized-gambling-for-kiddies, grab-bag "collectible" scheme.

The "Overpriced" part comes in terms of Value. No "value" in cheap plastic.



In reply to:

D> Do you understand what I'm saying?

C>Yes. I'm merely telling you you're wrong.



You're telling me that YOU THINK I'm wrong. Besides, if you really read what I said and understood it, you'd not be disagreeing with me. (Just a little of your egotism right back atcha! )


In reply to:

C>CBT is going to continue. WizKids and FanPro feel that there is still money to be made there. They also feel there is money to be made with MW:DA. They aren't trying to poison one in favor of the other. It's senseless.



Really? Funny, that's not the way it seems, especially when you add up the things which have been happening.

...you can use Mage Tech Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in Battletech, but not vice versa?

...plans are in the works to make rules so that you won't need to buy any resources from FanPro to play Battletech with your Mage Tech figures.

These two things alone add up bad news for FanPro, and if WizKids gluts the market with Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures, then they become far cheaper than any superior quality metal figures you can buy...what's the motivation to switch to a different system? There will be none...which means that Battletech dies out.

Rebuttal?

In reply to:

C>No. If you're playing with Magetech figures, you are NOT playing Battletech. You are playing Mage Tech, with Battletech rules (and with these new rules, who's to say they'll even be Battletech rules?

C>BZZT. Wrong answer. If you're playing with some variation of CBT miniatures rules with MW:DA figs, you're playing CBT. NOT MW:DA.

The game is the rules set. Not the proxy pieces used. Granted, MW:DA figs have game information on the bases. But you cannot play MW:DA without the MW:DA rules. And the data on the bases is meaningless in a CBT game. It's merely a black plastic base.



There are others on this board who would seem to agree with you. But to me, if you're playing Battletech with dollies, then you're not really playing Battletech. Just my opinion, apparently, and there was no groundswell of support to rally behind me on that. So apparently, it's merely my opinion.

But I'll say now, for those of you who disagree with me, using Mage Tech figures instead of Battletech figures will only hurt FanPro. I would encourage anyone who wants to get into minis to buy REAL Battletech minis, instead of dollies. Remove support from Mage Tech and give it to FanPro! Vote against the atrocity with your WALLET.


In reply to:

D> That's because I have been looking at it closely. And I don't like what I see.

C>Your arguments point to you having NOT looked closely. And if you don't like what you see. FINE. Nobody's forcing you to buy the figs or play MW:DA. Stick with CBT. It really is quite that simple.



How can you dispute my arguments when you haven't even addressed my point?


In reply to:

D>There is a trend, it is towards the extinction of real Battletech.

C>Excuse me. I thought I saw a oir tag in there. Any "trends" you see are purely constructs in your imagination. There is no big bad conspiracy to kill CBT and deprive you of your minis.



Yes, yes, sarcasm and ad-hominem attacks. Perhaps you'd like to dispute my point now? Instead of acting like a smartass? Or perhaps you can't, which is why you resort to adolescent behavior?

I want to hear you admit that making pseudo-rules for Mage Tech figures is going to be bad for FanPro. Admit it.


In reply to:

D>Detail? What, you mean because they make the grooves in the plastic deeper? There is detail in metal minis, and it can be brought out easily by anyone competent enough to hold a paintbrush.

C>Apparently you didn't read the report as you claimed. Most CBT minis have between 1 and 6 pieces. Some of the minis in MW:DA have up to 28 pieces.

So MW:DA figs simply have more detailed renderings of units than CBT was capable of. They're more complex.

If you can't acknowledge that, I can't help you.



I acknowledge that the Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures are more doll-like and therefore require more separate pieces. But they are not more "detailed". Detail is in the lines of a mini, in the intricate carvings of a piece of metal, which show things like access hatches and weapon ports. Plastic merely adds more pieces and makes those lines deeper. Larger scale does not mean more detail. Adding more superfluous pieces does not make for more detail...it merely adds more pieces to break off and get lost. A liability, if you ask me.


In reply to:

D>Depends...is it a collectible (meaning, I have to buy tons of c rap before I get what I want) system? In that case, it'd be horribly expensive

C>At the size and level of detail present in the MW:DA minis, a mech would probably cost 2-3 times what a CBT figure does now. At least. That's assuming some of what can be done in plastic can even be replicated in spin-cast metal. E-mail Iron Wind and ask them how much duplicating the CBT minis would cost them.



Ok, granted that metal figures in the wrong scale would be more expensive. You can reproduce the ugly Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in metal, in the correct scale for about the same price as any other real Battletech mini.

But what I don't understand is why you would want to? They are ugly!

You asked me, how much would it cost to buy comparable units in metal. A 'Mech, two vehicles, and four infantry. Now, since I'm buying them, I'm going to select the units I want which I personally would pay an extra dollar for the priviledge, and I'm also getting them in metal which is again, worth more than cheap plastic. The 'Mech I want costs about $6. The armor I want costs about $5, and the four infantry of my choosing would cost about $6. So, your "Starter Pack" of Overpriced Cheap Plastic dolls would cost about $20, my units would cost about $17...but with my added value, is worth far more.

I get to PICK which units I want, and I save about $3 over your "Starter Kit" of Overpriced Cheapo Plastic. Not to mention, I'm not STUCK with a certain faction...I can re-paint those units as many times as I want. Try to re-paint your plastic that many times...broken pieces, worn out garbage.


In reply to:

C>As to the collectible market. You keep ignoring the fact that the secondary market is an entirely OPTIONAL enterprise. If you wish to participate in it. You can. If you don't, you don't HAVE TO. What about this is so difficult to understand?




Nothing. Kind of useless information, though, as I don't see myself ever using it. But thanks for repeating the marketing hype!


In reply to:

D>The "starter" and "booster" set are full of superflous, redundant, and REPETITIVE non-necessary pieces, put there for the exclusive purpose of selling more Overpriced Cheap Plastic.

C>Yet the starters and the boosters are relatively inexpensive ways to start and build a decent army.

A set of mechs, vehicles, and infantry in CBT, equivallent to what you get in a $20 starter pack would cost you between $24-32.



I think I already disproved this above.


In reply to:

C>A $9 booster pack is equivallent to a $18-24 in CBT minis.




But if I can pick and chose the units I want, why would I need to gamble away my money on booster packs? Being able to get the units you want makes a booster pack look pretty silly, now doesn't it?

It's academic...they are different systems. In my system, nobody has to gamble and get ripped off. Not so in yours. We may pay a little more for the garuntee of getting exactly what we want, and we can use it longer, and it is a far more versatile way of collecting minis, but hey, if you want to gamble that you might find your uber piece, have at it. I'll be laughing when your face reveals that you didn't get it, but hey, tough luck, eh?

GO BUY ANOTHER ONE. That's what Jordan would tell that little kid. Because he wants his money, and that's part of the scheme. And if that kid is stupid enough to do it, and if his parents are foolish enough to give him the money, then maybe Jordan is better off with that cash.

I personally would direct the kid to the IWM case.

In reply to:

C>The public has a right to be COUNTER-spun.
Yup. Even if the person doing the spinning doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Or is simply being malicious because it gets him off.




Being malicious to get off? But that's what you're about too, isn't it? You know you love to bait people. Admit it. We're two of a kind, on opposite sides of a coin.

Nevertheless, once again you are wrong. I DO have a clue what I'm talking about...you just can't seem to address it and dispute it! Why is that, Chas?

And yes, the public does deserve to see how it is that Wizkids is causing the extinction of Battletech.


In reply to:

D> I don't have to have any experience

C> Thanks for at least admitting this.



No problem. It helped me to prove my point. Glad you can be so civil about loosing this one.


In reply to:

D> everything I said can be gleaned from reading Mike's own words.

C> Just like some people misinterpret the US Constitution.



Yes, those darnn liberals! Just making life miserable for all us normal people! Anyway, thanks for admitting I was right about this one. I will spare you this time, as long as you continue to grovel.


In reply to:

D> Ok, this is not the first time that someone has tried to involve facts.

C>I know. It's really hard to argue against factual data isn't it. Doesn't stop some people from trying though.



Man, I know what you mean! Some people out there just can't seem to see them, and try to argue them anyway! By the way, have you had a good look at what I was saying yet?


In reply to:

C>You're implying that WizKids is stating that if you don't have MW:DA figs, you won't be able to play CBT after a while. This is patently wrong. You simply will not be able to play MW:DA.



Er...what? I'm not saying that WizKids is saying anything. I'm saying (and if you'd read what I was saying, I wouldn't need to repreat it YET AGAIN) that Wizkids efforts, indirectly (or maybe not so indirectly), will cause the extinction of Battletech.

Sounds like you need to pay more attention, junior!



In reply to:

D> As for those people who want to switch scale...I'm sure there will be those people. I'm also wondering what would cause a person who has hundreds of dollars in real Battletech to switch to playing with dolls.

C>Simply because they want to collect all things BT-related.
Because they want to use the figs in lieu of traditional CBT minis (like you can in Armorcast macroture events).
Because they want figures that can be used in two games instead of just one.
Or for any combination of the reasons above, or for reasons I have not stated.



Ok. But as long as I'm here, I just want to repeat the word: DOLLS, and say again, PLAYING WITH DOLLS. Thanks.


In reply to:

D> And proxies in a strictly Battletech match, that's nothing unusual...but using a Battletech mini in a Mage Tech game, or vice versa? Mismatched, wrong scale, looks silly. Not to mention, IT HAS NO CLICK BASE...but you already knew this, right?

C>Way to keep track of your arguments!



Thanks! Man, getting praise from you is just like being Elton John and getting a Grammy!

Why did we bring this up, anyway? Oh, yes, because I said,

"Ok, still not clear why I would need to buy all new PPAF pieces when I have perfectly suitable metal 'Mechs. Oh, now I remember...because unless you have the click-bases you can't play."

And then you said,

"And there's nothing stopping you from using metal minis or proxies in BT games and tournaments as you always have. So your charge of "if we don't have the plastic figs we can't play" is ludicrous. But you already know this right?"

And then I figuratively shoved your face in the mud by pointing out that in fact, there WAS something from stopping me from playing metal figures in a Wizkids game. Doesn't it suck to be proven wrong, Chas? You must really be getting tired of it by now! Maybe you're the one who needs a little practice keeping track of his arguements, eh?

Either that, or (and this is getting to be a routine theme) you simply didn't understand what I was saying.

So which is it?


In reply to:

C>Of course you cannot play MW:DA with CBT figs. Yet the reverse is not true.

Get over it.



Ah, here we go, this is where you attempt to recover from me figuratively shoving your head in the mud. Nice try. But I still have to point out that you may have lost sight of your own arguement. No points, Chas. You still look silly.


In reply to:

D>I know that. That's been my beef all along. Why didn't they make the game in the correct scale?

C>Hmm. Tough one. But I'll take a stab at it.

Maybe BECAUSE IT IS A DIFFERENT GAME?

Maybe because they wanted to up the scale to provide more details in the minis than was possible at the CBT scale.

Maybe because they wanted to keep from confusing new players as to which pieces could be used in the MW:DA game?

Nah! Those are too easy! Sounds too much like sensible thought!



Hmm...too right. Sensible thought, that's certainly not your MO.

First, let me say, that I'm over it, so all this is academic. But because you'd be terribly dissapointed if I didn't argue with you (whips out shotgun, shoots down Chas' clay pigeons)

...it's a different game because they designed it that way. They could have just as easily made it in the correct scale. (Blam...pieces of silly reason fall to the ground)

...there's just as much detail in metal as in plastic...more in some instances (Blam! more silly reason pieces fall)

...if they made them all with attached bases, how could you confuse them with the metal ones? (Blam!)

(Examines littered landscape.) Dude. Poor showing! (Shakes head...tsk, tsk, tsk.)



In reply to:

D> don't want us playing Battletech, they want us playing Mage Tech.

C>If WizKids didn't want us playing CBT, CBT would not exist right now. Capisce?



If FanPro wasn't producing royalties for Jordan, they'd be out of business...capise, pisano? I'm sure that with all the effort and marketing being pumped into Wizkids, they feel confident that FanPro won't be an issue eventually.

In reply to:

D> So aggressive! Ok, to answer your first question, why should I have to?

C>Responding to a question with another question is no answer.



Oh, I dunno. Seems like perfect conversation, to me. Care to answer, or are you going to duck this question like you did Karagan's question about your vested intrest in MWDA?

I think you just ducked it because you can't answer it.


In reply to:

D>Basically your whole line of "reasoning" is based on "because I want it to be this way".



As opposed to your line, which is "This is the way it is, so tough." Which I can deal with. I was only arguing for the fun of it.

Just to recap, you asked me:

"Why should you be allowed to import figs from another game into MW:DA? And, as much as you seem to hate MW:DA (with what little you've seen of it), why would you want to?"

To which I answered "Why should I have to?" which is merely another way of asking "Why didn't they make it in the right scale to begin with?" You see (and I'm going to spell this out for you, because you have a bad habit of not reading...or maybe you simply have a lower read-comprehension skill), if they had made the game in the right scale, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Nevertheless you asked, "Why should you be able to", and my response is, "Because it would be nice to show the previous fan base that they cared that they had spent scads of money on Battletech." In fact, they do NOT. And per your advice, I'm over it.

You also asked, "Why would you want to?" The answer is simple, I don't...not now, anyway. If they had made the new game right (seamlessly integrated, that is), then I would have, and this never would have been an issue. But as it stands (all screwed up) I don't.

Now that I have answered your question, perhaps you'd care to step out of that smartass personna and actually answer mine? (Not that I hold out much hope...you seem to be incapable of stepping out of your smartass personna...like Warner is incapable of controlling which of his personalities we see at any given time.)


In reply to:

D>But the reason why they made it different was so people COULDN'T mix minis. First, a Battletech mini would wipe up the board with these cheapo knock-offs, and second, people playing with plastic and metal could not HELP but notice how superiour the quality of metal is to plastic, and how the metal figures look sooooo much better than plastic.

C>Uhm. You DO realize that the minis are little more than elaborate counters, don't you? Maybe not. Otherwise I wouldn't have gotten a "My mini could beat up your mini" argument.



*sigh* As we already established, unless your mini has a click base, you can't play the new game. (Remember? Sheesh, TRY to keep up...you're having a real problem with that!) This was deliberately included in the design specifically to make people buy the new minis, if they wanted to play Mage Tech.

That's the REASON...get it yet? It's not about counters on a board, it's about which counters can be used on which boards...and more importantly, which ones CANNOT.


In reply to:

D>Again, one of us is not getting it.

C>Whoa! No kidding?



Yes, and let me be more clear...I'm referring to you. Wow, it is so difficult to argue with you, you have a hard time understanding so many things!


In reply to:

D> In one way, though, I agree with you. Magetech is a poor replacment for real Battletech.

C> Oh well. Hope is, again, dashed.

Maybe if I restate it for the umpteenth time it'll sink in.

****MW:DA is NOT a replacement for CBT.****



Not sure why you feel you need to repeat it...I got that already...or didn't you understand that?


In reply to:

D> Because neither one will last that long. Want to bet?

C>If you want to get in on the short end of a sucker bet like this, more power to you



Hmm...but I notice you're not putting any money down. Way to prove my point.
Chas
07/12/02 07:08 PM
66.187.4.81

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Not to start a war with you, although you do seem to try and start one with anyone who has even the slightest difference of opinion with you.

Hey. If what I say offends you, I apologize. But I am not going to lie to people or mince words, just to avoid hurt feeling.

And don't let an emotional reaction (taking offense) get in the way of understanding what has been said to you.

However you always just preach the black and white of the matter, not the gray.

Of course. Because otherwise those who aren't careful mistake those gray shades for black or white. It's an attempt to keep people grounded when their emotions and initial reactions would have them blast into orbit over an insignificant little nothing.

And yes, CBT players feel its not fair that MWDA minis can be used in CBT but not the other way around.

I understand this. And YES, I don't think it's quite fair either. However, I am also looking at the other side of the issue as well. And I find their reasons just as compelling. And just as self-serving as those of some of the "fans".

Hey. I never said I was "right".

Hold on.

I'm right darn it!

Okay. Now I've said it.

Seriously. I may be right. I may be wrong. However, it's MY opinion. And if I feel like making corrections to errors put forth by others, that's my right. So please don't try to damn me for utilizing the same freedoms you possess.

Guess what, I ain't listening.

Guess what. I don't care. Wether you choose to listen to me, or choose to ignore me is NOT my concern. My point of contention is that people get their facts straight. Otherwise, how can anyone be expected to take their position seriously?

WArner got further with me by taking the logical explanation course than your self rightous preservation of MWDA.

Again. Your perogative. You're merely absorbing the same data I'm putting out. Merely from a source that's more palatable to you. Cool by me.

And maybe it's a bit more tactfuly presented than I have done. But then again, I'm dealing with a couple people here for whom the tactful approach has failed.

So I choose to go with bald truth (and no remarks about what's left of my hair line!).

You have the freedom to NOT listen to me, and to discount absoloutely everything I've said. And I will not strip you of this right. It doesn't mean I'm simply going to shut up though.

Fight on Mechwarriors, be it CBT or MWDA, its a free country, say what you want and PLAY what you want and if someone tells you that you are wrong, listen to their opinion (as I did and admitted to Warner, see my post if you can stop ranting long enough), and keep faith in your own beliefs, adn if that person keeps trying to shove them down your throat, smack the snot outta them.

And this is merely a regurgitation of what I've said all along.

As to your contention that I think of you as mindless?

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

I KNOW you have a mind. I'm merely asking that you use it. And not toss out what I say out-of-hand. But it's a REQUEST. Not a DEMAND.

What you do, think, and how you conduct yourself is your business.

Thank you for your time.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
07/12/02 07:09 PM
66.187.4.81

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And your sig is incorrect. Or you've never encountered the REAL saying in the IT world.

"Impossible just costs a lot more....."

---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Durango
07/12/02 07:35 PM
24.164.47.91

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In reply to:

D>>> So then, by extension of your statement, the game is not balanced, and there will be people throwing away the previous wave of pieces in favor of the next wave?

Z>No, you misinterpret.




Sorry, my bad.

In reply to:

Z>The actual Mageknight figures can possess a good deal of balance because they are internally playtested and all of their statistics were created with the underlying idea of point based balance in mind.

Converted CBT figures cannot have that luxury because it would be literally impossible to play test all of the near infinate designs that can be created with CBTs design system (which itself is unbalanced, but that's another thing). Trying to force all the myriad of player designed stats (weapons, armor, critical allocations) onto a dial containing little more than than attack, defense, and move numbers, and then allocating those numbers onto a varying scale for damage (which tends to be nearly unique per unit, representing ruggedness) is a nightmare for any attempts to enforce play balance.

To summarize:
Wizkids can produce balanced units because it can create them individually, and from the ground up as MW:DA units, and then play test them to get at least some degree of balance.

A conversion system would have a hellishious time creating balance because it has to account for the near infinite designs capable under CBT design rules and can be abused by players eager to get an extra edge.
This problem was bad enough with BV, where we had players creating units with actual combat effectiveness far in advance of their point values. Ask Bob about the Madcat with Cheese someday. Do you think that would be easy to avoid in this case as well? Do you really think there won't be players sitting down with the conversion system trying to find all the loopholes that would allow them to create a 50 pt unit that fights like an 80 or 100 pt unit?




Ah. But that's not what I was referring to. I was positing that the units in question (the converted Battletech units) had already been play tested. Again, my bad.

In any case...the situation you refer to "loophole jumping" I classify as "strategy". I call it "knowing how to get the most out of your 'Mech". This sort of "loophole exploitation" goes on in any game, as there is no perfect game.

And with that in mind, it would happen in Mage Tech anyway...so what's the harm in allowing us to play, too?

In any case, if you can absorb that this sort of "strategy" is going to happen no matter what, then we can also extend that into the concept that the first wave will become obsolete, anyway. So I still may have a point.



In reply to:

D>> Anway, you are right, nobody has asked, and since we HAVE no details about the game, that could explain why nobody has even tried yet

Z>I meant had anyone even tried to ask Wizkids. Not had anyone tried to make such a system, yet (I know it's far to early for that)




To my knowledge, no. So I concede this point to you.
Durango
07/12/02 07:37 PM
24.164.47.91

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In reply to:


A>I still play "Star Frontiers", "Villians and Vigilantes", "Bushido", and not to mention 1st ed D&D.




FGU fella eh? Ever play Aftermath! ?


In reply to:

A>I have casting equipment for any mini's that are no longer produced (no I won't sell, that's illegal, but I can tell you how) and Word allows for any rulebook or sourcebook that fall appart. Like the 1st ed MechWarrior RPG, which I also still play.

The game will not die. If they stop making it, my feel is that it will go into the public domain, and it will become FanTech of some sort.




All very well, but some of us don't have the resources to draw upon that you do.


In reply to:

A>As to ClickTech - I vote with my wallet. That is what hurts a company and tells them I'm not happy with their product.




That's a good start! Some of us have bigger plans, tho.

Chas
07/12/02 07:39 PM
66.187.4.81

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Listen...I'm so much not complaining because they won't come up with stats for me, I'm complaining because they could have.

But the million-C-Bill question is:

Why SHOULD they have?

Because you made a large investment in BattleTech (not MW:DA)?

Because it would have kept the good will of people who made large investments in BattleTech (not MW:DA)?

Seriously. Give me a good, non-self-serving answer as to why they could have.

It's not that WK doesn't care about the original fanbase. It's that they have already moved to help the original fanbase by continuing their game. While coming out with a new game that may or may not appeal to that fanbase due to a degree of separation between the rules sets and business model.

CBT is still firmly rooted in the classical publishing business model.

MW:DA isn't.

Trying to make MW:DA adopt a publishing business model would simply destroy the game's viability and reasons for existence.

My position has always been that Mage Tech is bad for Battletech...that directly refutes the line of propoganda which Wizkids put out to pacify Battletech users: "Mage Tech will get younger kids involved in your hobby."

A difference of opinion is not a refutation.

I got banned for my position from CBT

Correction, you got banned because you could not moderate your language or behavior on the board and comply with the standards of conduct there.

Your position on MW:DA was irrelevant to your banning.

by making the new game in such a way that we couldn't use our existing collections.

What is the point of making a new game if people have no reason to invest in it due to conversion rules from different games?

And what's detestable about it? That they wanted to make money off their hard work instead of allowing a bunch of people with large collections of material for another game to get in for free?

I think they had an obligation, to the people who have been keeping this game going, lo, these dozens of years. I think that fan loyalty should be repaid.

And it was. CBT continues. Despite FASA's demise. WizKids made sure that it would.

It's like someone saving you from downing, then you turn around and demand that they allow you to move into their house and set you up with an allowance and a car.

When FASA introduced Shadowrun, did you ask for CBT conversions there? Howabout VOR? Crimson Skies? Crucible?

It's like an athlete, who you've been going to EVERY GAME he's been at in his career, cheering your heart out and supporting him, and then one day you ask him for an autograph, and he says, "Get lost, cracker. I don't sign autographs." His legal right not to do that. But how much of a sucker do you feel like for having been his fan all this time?

You're talking about emotional investment. I understand it. However, you have to understand that just because you invest yourself into someone/something doesn't give you the right (legally, morally, or otherwise) to make demands of them or have any sort of hold over them. This is, essentially, what you're asking for.

"I spent lots of cash on your game (FASA's actually). So you owe me!"

WK owes you nothing. They merely hold the IP rights to BT now. They've already gone above and beyond by licensing CBT for further production.

And YES, I understand that their motives aren't as altruistic as I seem to be making them out to be. They're a business. Their first duty is to the bottom line. PERIOD.


It's like your mom died in an auto crash, and then your dad sends you to live in a foster home.

You're equating being left out of free transition from MW:DA to losing your mother and being abandoned by your father?

The most I'm going to say to this is "No Comment". It's a bit too close to home for me to address this civilly with you.

And here I am, explaining my viewpoint, just so some flamer smartass can make fun of it.

You think I'm making fun of you? Please. I merely disagree with your viewpoint. And I have no qualms about being as bluntly truthful as possible.

Yes, we have been disowned.

No we have not.

CBT and MW:DA are not our families. They are games. If you wish to participate in the games, you have to make an investment. You have made your investment in CBT, not MW:DA. Therefore, you have no reasonable claim to the ability to participate.

I've already bought the stuff to make up the sandwich signs, so I can walk up and down the street protesting.

Just make sure you tell them EVERYTHING.

1: The game you support was created by another company.
2: The game you want to play is based on the same source material, but is a different game mechanically.
3: The game you support is still supported and in development.
4 You feel an entitlement to play the latter because you had a sizeable investment in the former.

Or go one better.

Come to GenCon.

Protest at the MW:DA and CBT seminars.
Protest outside the convention center.
Leave pamphlets for the gamers.

It looks to me like you still hold out hope for people to switch over to Battletech. I think that hope is misguided.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion. Just as I'm entitled to mine. As Zippy is to his(?).
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Durango
07/12/02 07:51 PM
24.164.47.91

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In reply to:


W>Feel better? Good.

That was my right cheek.

Here is my left cheek. You can slap it too.

And then I will turn it again. David.

And again...

again..

again...

By the way David.. If you want to do it more, ask and I will repeat as above.

And do so as much as you need to make yourself feel so mighty and cool.




Hey, I like you a whole lot more than the guy I wrote that letter to. Can you stay surfaced for a bit longer? You can stay. The other Warner must go. (And if you can do that, tell the other personalities they gotta go, too.)

In reply to:

W>God bless and keep you David Staples.




Who? Oh, you're talking to me...except my name is Dave.


In reply to:


CLICK HERE

You were saying? Ah yes..




Interesting...is this the same e-mail addy your alter-identity uses?


In reply to:

W>Turn my cheek again...

repeat as necessary...




Man, that gets old fast.

In reply to:


W>I should never had made that request.

I withdraw it now.

*Turns already bruised cheek*

Thank you my brother in Christ...




I forgive you, Brother Warner.

Now, let me back on CBT.



KJV Luke 18:9-14
(9) And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
(10) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
(11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
(12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
(13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Prove it.


Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 07:51 PM
216.24.108.137

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Fight on Mechwarriors, be it CBT or MWDA, its a free country, say what you want and PLAY what you want and if someone tells you that you are wrong, listen to their opinion (as I did and admitted to Warner, see my post if you can stop ranting long enough), and keep faith in your own beliefs, adn if that person keeps trying to shove them down your throat, smack the snot outta them.

And this is merely a regurgitation of what I've said all along.

Which I think was my original thought on my 3rd or 4th post after returning to this board.

Peace?
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
Chas
07/12/02 07:53 PM
66.187.6.93

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Also, I'd like to point out that if they're making pseudo-Battletech rules for the OCP figures, then that diminishes the "new kids's" motivation to buy BMR, Mapsheets and other suppliments from FanPro...not just the minis, from IWM.

Wrong. The existence of conversion rules would come out on the CBT side, as an adjunct to their miniatures rules.

And, simply have the conversions themselves would not be enough to allow someone to play CBT in its entirety. You'd still need a boxed set or BMR.

...they will not be buying their minis from IWM, thus no financial support will weaken IWM

You do have a point here. But people who buy PlasTech and proxy don't feed revenue to Iron Wind either. Minis in CBT are a luxury. Not a necessity.

And, in the foreseeable future at least, metal is the only way to custom paint your minis, without a lot of stripping of MW:DA figs which my damage them.

As for not buying books from FP. Actually, if they want to play CBT, or invest in universe source material for ANY of the ages of the BattleTech universe, it'll be coming from FanPro. About the only exception MIGHT be the novels.

So, if they have to buy FP-published materials, the money still goes to FP.

Remember, WizKids is not interested in producing games based on the publishing model. Hence the reason they have licensed off Shadowrun and CBT to FanPro.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
07/12/02 07:55 PM
66.187.6.93

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One doesn't spend 10 years in a FASA-run Universe and come out with that kind of naive expectation intact.

Hehehe. Sounds like we have an Assasin fan here.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 07:58 PM
216.24.108.137

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ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Oh God it hurts!!!!!!

LOLLOLLOL

"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
Chas
07/12/02 08:06 PM
66.187.6.93

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What? No? Why not? Because that's the one little bit of power you can exercise here? The fact that you can withhold information as well as preventing it from occuring elsewhere?

E-mail Jordan C/O the CBT line developer. Randall Bills. His e-mail addy is on the CBT site. Simply request that your message be forwarded to Jordan.

As long as you're not deliberately rude and crude, it'll go through. These guys are NOT inaccessible.

Or have you already been told by your god what the "plan" is?

What was the term?

Ad hominem attack?

All we're saying is that we should welcome MW:DA players as fans of the same universe. You don't have to like them. You don't even have to respect them. Just acknowledge that they have a like that is similar to one of your own.

Stand together or hang separately (though not with quite the threatening connotations that could be attributed to it).

Quite simply, if you hate MW:DA and it's developers so much that you alienate MW:DA players, yes, MW:DA will suffer. But CBT will suffer as well. Because of a perception of elitism. And in the end, the entire BT Universe will be hurt by it.

THAT is what Peter meant when he said that we should hope that MW:DA does well. If MW:DA fails simply because it's boring and nobody wants to play it, CBT won't really be any worse off.

However, if MW:DA fails because of exceptional negative attitude from a group of CBT players evoking negative attitude in MW:DA players, then CBT will eventually be in trouble as well.

Because nobody likes playing their favorite games with people who are rude and negative all the time (there's another term, but the profanity rules....)

---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
07/12/02 08:09 PM
66.187.6.93

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I can't really argue based on your space limitations.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Durango
07/12/02 08:16 PM
24.164.47.91

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In reply to:

D>> ...you can use Mage Tech Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in Battletech, but not vice versa?

Z>You've always been able to play Battletech with whatever you want, as it's the record sheets that have important unit information on them. The flow just isn't nearly as elegant going the other way, as it is the MW:DA figures themselves that have inherent stats.




Agreed. In my opinion, that makes it exclusive.


In reply to:

D>> ...plans are in the works to make rules so that you won't need to buy any resources from FanPro to play Battletech with your Mage Tech figures.

Z>Uh, I don't think it's quite like that. I may be wrong, but my perception was that Wizkids was going to let Fanpro write up CBT stats, and possibly put out CBT supplements for dark age era mechs and scenarios, for those that want to play out the Dark Age timeline with CBT rules. Scale conversion or not, you still need a BMR or equivalent to play with CBT rules. Again, it's Fanpro that puts those out. Thus, you can play CBT without Fanpro miniatures (using MW:DA figures instead). But you've always had this option (reference precious remarks about coins, legomen, etc). Some amount of the books are still needed to play.

If it's got CBT stats, then Fanpro is writing it, has been my impression. Even if it takes place within the time detailed by the MW:DA fiction.



This seems to be at variance with the things I have read on other boards. From what I hear, there will be no TROs for the Overpriced Cheap Plastic 'Mechs.


In reply to:

D>> These two things alone add up bad news for FanPro, and if WizKids gluts the market with Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures, then they become far cheaper than any superior quality metal figures you can buy...what's the motivation to switch to a different system? There will be none...which means that Battletech dies out.

Z>Legomen are far cheaper than mechs (and they even conveniently can be dismembered to represent damage). Heck, they are roughly even in the same scale. Yet, their presence on the market never had any effect that I know of on CBT. They are different games, appealing to different styles of play, whether or not they take place in the same universe or not. Warhammer and CAV mini sales never had much of an effect on BT. That's because they are a different sort of game, even though both of them have giant robots in them.

You've even said yourself that. Your own remarks evidence that this is the case with your own preferences.




They've never taken any of the Lego sets and made official pseudo-rules for them, before, either. Same about CAV or Warhammer minis. It's the idea that you won't need to buy real Battletech minis which is so threatening.


In reply to:

Z>It's a different sort of war game. It appeals to a different sort of play. The only connection is in the interest in the universe itself (which I honestly think can have a positive effect both ways).

The motivation to switch to a different system lies with the player. Are they the sort of player that digs a game like Battletech?




Or are they the type of player who has a limited budget? Let me ask you, how many people do you know who have the cash to blow setting up one collection of minis and then shelving it to set up another? I submit that the average player who has done his run on Mage Tech, is bored with it and looking for a new game, will not want to buy an entire new collection...and will be more likely to just get the pseudo-Battletech suppliment. (Thereby simply not even bothering with real Battletech minis. That's not good for FanPro.)


In reply to:

D>>*sigh* As we already established, unless your mini has a click base, you can't play the new game. (Remember? Sheesh, TRY to keep up...you're having a real problem with that!) This was deliberately included in the design specifically to make people buy the new minis, if they wanted to play Mage Tech.

Z>I disagree with your interpretation of their intentions with this design feature. The necessity of the combat dial comes from the game's close ties to the Mage Knight method of play. It was not to force CBT players to buy new minis, but instead to make the new game more familiar to the Mage Knight players and lure them into playing it.

The way I see it instead of their motivation for this system being something like:
"Let's make a new miniature based combat system that's incompatible with Battletech, so that we force all those CBT suckers to buy new figures to play"

It was probably more like this:
"We've got a great universe with giant killer robots. Let's come up with a game for it with Mage Knight like figures so that we can lure all those Mage Knight suckers into playing it"




You're a good person, Zippy. I think that you may be the type who wants to see the good in everyone. I'm a little more jaded.

Though your interpretation is probably closer to the mark than mine, the final product is very damning. The evidence is remains...it is impossible to play Mage Tech with my previous collection.

In reply to:

Z>The Mage Knight customer base is larger than the CBT customer base. I'm not so vain as to think they were targetting us instead of that larger group of buyers.

The fact that they might drag in some of the CBT players is just gravy.




I'm not so naiive to think that they were aiming at us, either. In fact, all signs point to the fact they'd rather be rid of us.

If you think that they're going to drag in more customers for FanPro is gravy, how do you feel about the possibility they may make CBT obsolete?
raven
07/12/02 08:24 PM
68.81.155.30

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meanie

Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 08:25 PM
216.24.108.137

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What I cannot get over is this....

No one is saying you HAVE to buy and play MW:DA.
No one is saying you HAVE to play Battletech.
I know I have raised several arguments counter to MW:DA, but that is my opinion. As is my opinion that the people who do not have enough imagination to continue the Battletech universe with their own stories are unimaginative trolls.
Personally I plan to play Battletech as long as I can, I forsee no reason why I should stop, and I do not see an army of Whiz Kids storming my house to tell me to stop.
My biggest gripe was that the game did not encourage imagination and creativity in tha you could not redesign the mechs to suit your desires nor could you easily paint/repaint them to match personal preference.
Everyone (including myself sometimes) likes to get on their soapbox and preach that their game, their companies, their opinions are better than someone else's. And I can understand that....sorta....but does it really take 222 replies to this thread, plus 144 replies to the I hate Classic Battletech to make each one of us realize that it is really each to his own? Cannot we realize that some people are going to play MW:DA or Battletech no matter what is said to try and sway them?
Hey like I said before, if a kid wants to learn battletech, I will show him, if wants to play MW:DA, I ain't gonna hound him al night to stop and play my game...the hounding and the griping just makes it go on forever...sorta like I am doing now

So in short...CAN''T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???? AND ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT BATTLETECH TOPICS WITHOUT TRYING TO PROVE THAT EITHER GAME IS BETTER.

Thank you for your time, Clan Wolverine now returns you to your regularly scheduled mud slinging on the forums.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
Durango
07/12/02 08:32 PM
24.164.47.91

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In reply to:

KR>ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Oh God it hurts!!!!!!

LOLLOLLOL




(Takes bow.)

Thank you, you are too kind. I am glad that someone can see the humor in it. (Now aren't you glad you waded through that long stack of posts?)

It's even funnier if you picture JW as Monty Burns. (Or so I was told.)


Edited by Durango (07/12/02 08:35 PM)
Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 08:43 PM
216.24.108.137

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DOH!

"Smither's bring me my tupperware full of plastic mechs so that may look over them with glee, Money money money, each of is named Money Money Money Burns Jr."
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 08:56 PM
216.24.108.137

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BattleTech, Will Live on in the hearts of all who play it. As long as someone has the core rule book, It dosent die.
Shure there may not be any new products. Oh well We'll still be playing. The IS isn't a universe that dies easy. If your suggesting that once WK stops battleTech it dies, you are wrong. The Players then will be in total control. I'll be Playing BattleTech Even if WK drops it and it no longer has a home company. I'll carve figures myself if i have to, and the story will continue.
I'm upset that you feel battletech will die because of this, I'm Upset that any player would stop playing a game just because There aren't New Minis or Novels each month.


AMEN!!!!!
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
Acolyte
07/12/02 08:59 PM
142.179.27.248

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Never could find a copy of "Aftermath". I'd love to see the rules set for it.

As to resources - I'd be surprised if you couldn't find some people that have them and would let you borrow. This is a branch off of the Open Source commnity, basically applying the same mindset to RL problems as opposed to computer problems. Try it and see!

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Chas
07/12/02 08:59 PM
66.187.6.93

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Put it this way. I can only give you information based on what is said in public. However, you SHOULD be able to glean tidbits here and there as I go along, even if I don't coime out and say it.

As for your "point". That WizKids wants to tank metal mini production from Iron Wind.

Ludicrous. They get very nice royalties from Iron Wind. Allowing you to play CBT with MW:DA figs is merely them giving you an option they need not have given you.

What does it cost to make that mini? Pennies? What do they sell it for? Dollars?

Why not e-mail them and ask how much tooling costs for a production run of a single mini type costs. I think you'd be surprised.

And, simply because they produce a figure for...oh...for the sake of argument...costs $0.50 to tool, stock, make, paint, package, and ship, they should only sell them for $0.51?

Of course not! They're a business. If they don't make a profit, they're OUT of business.

Again, if you want to see a cost to profit ratio, ask the company. I think you'll find that they're making nowhere near 1500% profit.

Yes. Metal figures cost more. On an equal basis. However, the size difference of the two scales makes direct comparison impossible. Go ask Iron Wind how much it would cost to dupe a couple of the MW:DA figs in metal at the same scale.

I can guarantee the mini will cost considerably more than $8.

If the level of detail can be duplicated at all. There are some things you can do in plastic that cannot be done in spin-cast metal.

As for your "value" argument.

Value is a subjective benchmark.

What may hold value for you, may be crap to someone else. And vice versa.

You're telling me that YOU THINK I'm wrong.

Yes. In some cases. In other cases, where your facts are messed up, I'm flat out telling you "You're wrong." There's no "I think" about it.

Funny, that's not the way it seems, especially when you add up the things which have been happening.

Your perceptions are not what we're discussing here. We're discussing ACTUALITY.

...you can use Mage Tech Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in Battletech, but not vice versa?

Correct. Because of the integral nature of the mini to MW:DA, importing minis from CBT would be detrimental.

Whereas minis in CBT are not even necessary. They're merely a luxury. You can make do with proxies, cardboard counters, etc. CBT isn't dependent on integrity of the model base the way MW:DA is.

...plans are in the works to make rules so that you won't need to buy any resources from FanPro to play Battletech with your Mage Tech figures.

Of course. Again, since minis are not integral to CBT, the MW:DA figs are little more than proxies. Their scale can be adjusted for in CBT minis rules and actual mechsheet representations can be created for them using CBT construction rules.

There are others on this board who would seem to agree with you.

And there are those who would agree with you.

But to me, if you're playing Battletech with dollies, then you're not really playing Battletech.

Thanks for damning all those who collect BT-related materials simply because they're BT-related.

Remove support from Mage Tech and give it to FanPro! Vote against the atrocity with your WALLET.

And this is, again, what I've been saying all along. If you don't like it, DON'T BUY IT!

Just stop ragging on those people who WOULD buy it. Because it hurts you and CBT just as much as it hurts the person and game you're ragging on.

How can you dispute my arguments when you haven't even addressed my point?

I have. You simply fail to allow yourself to accept my point of view.

Yes, yes, sarcasm and ad-hominem attacks.

And you have zero room to make such accusations.

I want to hear you admit that making pseudo-rules for Mage Tech figures is going to be bad for FanPro. Admit it.

Get ready for a long wait. I have said, nor will I say any such thing.

But they are not more "detailed". Detail is in the lines of a mini, in the intricate carvings of a piece of metal, which show things like access hatches and weapon ports.

Thank you for your self-serving definition. Unfortunately, detail means more than just lines carved into the exterior of a piece.

You can reproduce the ugly Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in metal, in the correct scale for about the same price as any other real Battletech mini.

The problem is, they can't be used for MW:DA then. And if you think that you can duplicate all those minis at the same price point, be my guest. Again, I recommend you talk with Iron Wind before making these assertions.

Kind of useless information

There's no such thing as useless information.

Admit it. We're two of a kind, on opposite sides of a coin.

Don't ever deign to compare yourself to me. You know nothing about me. Merely a few short lines on one individual point of interest.

Trust me, if I were like you, you'd have been banned from here as well. Instead of me taking the time and effort to try to discuss things with you.

No problem. It helped me to prove my point.

Talk about twisted logic. Telling someone "I don't know what I'm talking about." means you win the argument? O-kaaaay!

And then I figuratively shoved your face in the mud by pointing out that in fact, there WAS something from stopping me from playing metal figures in a Wizkids game

No you didn't. You made an inference that it did. Inference is not the same as fact. Nice try though.

...it's a different game because they designed it that way. They could have just as easily made it in the correct scale. (Blam...pieces of silly reason fall to the ground)

You should stop dropping reason that way. It's not nice. They didn't make iit the same scale to:

A: Differentiate the game.
B: Allow them to add more detail their their mechs
C: Control the distribution of the game, and thus maintain control over production.

...there's just as much detail in metal as in plastic...more in some instances (Blam! more silly reason pieces fall)

I never said there couldn't be. However, very few mechs have the level of detail given to them that most of the MW:DA pieces have.

...if they made them all with attached bases, how could you confuse them with the metal ones? (Blam!)

And how long would that have lasted until somebody forged them.

If FanPro wasn't producing royalties for Jordan, they'd be out of business...capise, pisano?

You apparently haven't got a clue who FanPro is. They're the maker of one of the largest RPG games in Germany. Even if they lost their CBT and SR licenses tomorrow, they'd still be in business the day after (and the year after, etc).

Again. Big blunders like this on your part are because you simply don't take the time to check your facts before making ludicrous statements.

As to the rest of your post. Let's just use the term "circular arguments". I won't even sully the term "logic".

You're essentially saying: "I want it this way because they could have made it this way, because they should have made it this way, because I want it this way."

That's not something you can argue. Because there's no sense in it. It all boils down to "You didn't get what you wanted.

B
O
O
H
O
O

Thanks for your attempts at conversation. Don't be too disappointed if I don't address you any further.

I think I've had my fill of banging my head off a brick wall.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
07/12/02 09:02 PM
66.187.6.93

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*Slips KR a PPC-Steiner*

Drink that. It should numb the pain....and everything else.....
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Acolyte
07/12/02 09:07 PM
142.179.27.248

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Hmmmm.... point taken. One thing I will add is that I'm in all likelyhood not the only person with this problem.

It's also not the only problem I have with MW:DA.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Chas
07/12/02 09:07 PM
66.187.6.93

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As for me. I plan to continue playing CBT.

I also plan to at least try out MW:DA once it hits the public (I already playtested for it, but games usually assume a different dynamic once you give it over to the public).

If I get bored with MW:DA, I'll drop it.

Just like dropped CAV.

Heck. I know of three people (two of whom were actually CAV developers) who no longer even play CAV.

As for needing X-hunded replies? Probably not. But I'm sure it was cathartic for at least some of them.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
07/12/02 09:10 PM
66.187.6.93

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Correction.

As long as CBT is still played, wether anyone's publishing rulebooks for it or not, it's still alive.

Heck. Look at StarFleet Battles! I playtested for the captain's edition from 1987-1990. And the company producing it tanked after a couple years. Yet it survivied.

Heck, it survivied long enough for another company to pick it up and begin development again! Roughly 8 years.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
07/12/02 09:15 PM
66.187.6.93

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One thing I will add is that I'm in all likelyhood not the only person with this problem.

Granted. But it's not as if your problem is ubiquitous.

Also, given the nature and limits of the game, a more crowded board is probably desireable for MW:DA.

It's also not the only problem I have with MW:DA.

Hey. Don't get me wrong. I have issues with it too.

The collectability thing is the main one. However, it shouldn't affect me, or many dilletente CBT players, because we're likely more concerned with the mini itself than the stats in the dial. Pretty much eradicating the value of rare figures for us.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Acolyte
07/12/02 09:20 PM
142.179.27.248

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More crowded is desirable? Try it. Go ahead and put 48 'Mechs on 4 maps.

Ya, the collectability will all but decide my level of purchase. i.e. none.

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Chas
07/12/02 09:33 PM
66.187.6.93

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Also, remember that MW:DA isn't hexmap limited.

So units are a bit more free in their choice of movement and placement.

As to the collectiability deciding your purchase level. Again, if you want merely to collect specific unit types (not specific figs at specific strengths), then the collectability is a non-issue.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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