Chas
07/10/02 01:41 AM
66.187.6.100
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Hey guys. Just got muy report from the MW:DA seminar at Origins 2002 up.
http://www.evilnet.net/origins.shtml
Lemme know what you think.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Greyslayer
07/10/02 01:51 AM
63.12.142.63
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'Instead, the jump is giving them a chance to re-focus the novels on smaller unit actions which can actually be represented in play. As well as opening up a wider scope so that new authors could be brought in to give their own personal views into the BattleTech universe.'
Statements like this make me laugh. Isn't that the role of the writer rather than the standing point of the written universe? It details a lack of skill on the writers/developers path to totally re-write history rather than any other aspect.
Maybe you could've placed your rant at the start as a 'link' rather than as the body of the preview itself.
Anyway thanks for previewing it for us and posting a link.
Greyslayer
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Chas
07/10/02 03:47 AM
66.187.6.100
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Tell me though. How do you go from a set of novels that encompass the entire BT universe to a novel with the same characters that only covers a single planet, or a continent on that planet, or a city on that continent?
It just doesn't quite work well that way.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Spartan
07/10/02 10:00 AM
172.144.23.214
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Thanks for the update Chas.
I have to say though that the changes they're making make me want to either cry or throw up, I can't tell which. We have to buy booster packs in order to have the units we need to win a game? We can't just take a mech (or any other unit for that matter) and move in and kick some butt? We have to have unit combinations and special moves? What is that? Are we playing a strategy game or a fight based video game? Not to mention not being able to design. I hate that. I know they have a target audience and all and that they want to simplify things for them. But when I started playing Battletech I was the age of the current target audience. And I could understand it quite well. And designing my own mechs (and other equipment) and creating my own units was what really made it the most fun. Especially when I didn't have a group I could play against.
End of rant.
Begining of question. I have heard several different conflicting reports. Can anyone tell me what is going to happen to Battletech when it catches up to mwda?
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Chas
07/10/02 12:42 PM
66.187.3.66
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No. You don't have to have any specific unit.
You DO, however probably want to maintain a combined arms unit. Simply because they're more versatile than a pair of mechs.
Mechs are very powerful, but if you swarm them with infantry of equal point value.....
Basically infantry is useful for swarming mechs and moving formations. Formation movement is fairly evil. Mostly because you're only pushing one of the units at a time.
Vehicles are more powerful and more durable than infantry. They're great for fire support.
Mechs are REALLY tough, and have multiple attack methods (usually a melee attack and a ranged attack). Plus, pushing them doesn't cost damage clicks like it does for vehicles and infantry. That;s what the heat dial is for. When you push a mech (move/attack/action in consecutive rounds), you take a click of heat. The more heat you build, the more more your stats temporarily degrade. However, unlike vehicles and infantry, you can improve those stats again, merely by letting the mech cool down.
As to not being able to design. If you want that level of depth, you need to use CBT. It's just that simple.
They're not merely catering to an age-specific audience. They're also targetting a group of players whose previous gaming experience has NOT been D&D and StarFleet Battles. But those whose previous gaming experience has been Pokemon, Magic, and MageKnight.
As to what BT is going to do when it catches up with the MW:DA timeline.
That's going to be quite a while. During the Clans story arc, they covered approximately 17 game years in about 12 real years.
At that rate, it'll take about 42 years before the CBT story arc catches up.
Also, as the preview states, there are talks going on with FanPro about publishing sourcebook material for the MW:DA era. So that CBT and MW:DA players who wish to play in that era, can do so, and still enjoy the same level of sourcebook support they had under CBT.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Durango
07/10/02 01:24 PM
65.212.106.131
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"Someone made the point that it was different than BT."
What a suprise...just like the guys in infomercials:
"Well, gee, Mr. Popiel! This looks completely different from the original product!"
"That's right, Candy! Let me tell you all about it..."
What a lovely opportunity for a segue. (Planted shill, anyone?)
"But please note. While there are many strange factions in the new era, the old factions haven't gone away. The Successor Houses, and the Clans are still there. And they're still very powerful."
So, let me get this straight...Stone's confederation exists alongside of all the Houses? This seems to be at variance with other things I have read.
"Also, as was mentioned at the MageKnight/HeroClix/MWDA joint seminar, they are looking at ways to adapt the BT rules for play with MWDA figures for those who wish to use this scale."
Ah, so that's it. Once they have made rules which allow the use of MWDA figs, what is the motivation for a person who started with MWDA figs to switch over to real Battletech? Especially if such a person has a LOT of these Overpriced Cheap Plastic figures?
This also flies in the face of the whole "MWDA is a starter game to get people invoved with real Battletech" theory.
I gotta say, it sure looks like they are making every effort to replace real Battletech with this overpriced cheap plastic changeling.
"At this point, the question was raised about why the MWDA Spider mech looked so much different from the CBT mini. There's several reasons why the Spider, and other mechs, may come out looking differently in MWDA than they do in CBT.
One of the reasons is a production issue. There's a lot more that can be done with plastic than can be done with spin-cast metal minis."
Sorry, how's that? Oh, you mean if you want to make dollies...Plastic Posable Action Figures. Ok, two responses to this, I'm not into playing with dolls anymore (outgrew that 30 years ago) and second, any metal figure can be posed...without the need for re-posing. (Posable Action Figures! What's next, fashion accessories?)
However, one thing is for sure...you can churn out plastic figures quickly and cheaply all day long, and the profit margin is higher, too! (That's one thing out of that "lot more" you can do with plastic...you can make a "lot more" of it, and you can charge a "lot more" than it's worth, thereby making a "lot more" money.)
"The next is an artisitic [sic] issue. Lets face it. Some of the mechs in CBT are just BUTT UGLY."
Ok, now that's just mean.
I'm sure that Plastic Posable Action Figures (PPAF), once they start cranking them out, will have their fair share of losers, too...in fact, I daresay more. (Based on quantity and manufacturing materials.)
"Also, WizKids plans on releasing product on a nice, steady schedule. So they don't flood the market with a bunch of figures all at once when people may not be able to afford them all simultaneously."
Plus it keeps a steady income to them. Durn nice of them to put it in terms which make them look better, tho. No, strike that...it was predictable. Nice marketing spin, there, tho.
"Part of the reason for [the jump in the story line] was, and is, that the current story line had more or less written itself into a corner. Novels were beginning to fall, more or less, into the same general outline as the story line progressed. And while many people would willingly pay big bucks to see Victor Davion come, see, and conquer until the end of time, it was getting old. Both from a readership standpoint, and from the standpoint of the authors."
Plus, Mike was feeling a little put out that he wasn't getting enough money. Not to mention that the previous publishers were cramping his style by limiting the number of pages per novel. He said so himself, in his letter to the masses..."don't diss me, there's money to be made here"..."just go sell your cheeseburger heartattacks and buy this new game [implied "you livin'-in-your-parent's-basement, workin-at-the-Burgershack-geeks, I make more money than you'll ever SEE in your lifetimes, so just shutup, losers"]"
"The range of "classic" mechs in MWDA is going to span between 2750 and 3067. And they're going to be starting and concentrating more on the popular mechs.
Also, because of the production costs, and the sheer quantity of pre-existing mechs from CBT, it's going to take quite a while for them to introduce a lot.
A ballpark figure on how many was given however. They said we could honestly expect between 72-100 classic mechs to be introduced in MWDA over the lifetime of the product."
Ok, still not clear why I would need to buy all new PPAF pieces when I have perfectly suitable metal 'Mechs. Oh, now I remember...because unless you have the click-bases you can't play. And you can't get the click-bases...unless you buy the Overpriced Cheap Plastic (OCP).
So either I can't play MWDA...or I have to buy a whole new collection. Kind of a neat way to force people to buy, isn't it? Which isn't so bad, considering that nobody is FORCING me to play MWDA...
until the other shoe drops, and this changeling actually DOES replace Battletech. THEN all support for real Battletech is lost, and this game is all that's left.
I'm seeing nothing but bleak future for real Battletech. It's depressing.
But anyway, thanks for the update.
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Khan_Robinette
07/10/02 05:14 PM
216.24.108.11
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"The next is an artisitic issue. Lets face it. Some of the mechs in CBT are just BUTT UGLY. "
And the Lawn Boy mech they have premiered is a work of art??? The only person in my house that likes the Lawn Boy is my kid and that is because I let him and the cat play with it instead of my real mechs.
Plastic vs metal..tell me which you rather have your sword made of in a fight?
Thanks for the update and the link interesting article but the usual crap from gotta-take-a-Whiz-Kids.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Chas
07/10/02 05:45 PM
66.187.3.55
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So, let me get this straight...Stone's confederation exists alongside of all the Houses? This seems to be at variance with other things I have read.
Yup. This is why we ask that people try not to go up in flames until they have all the information.
Ah, so that's it. Once they have made rules which allow the use of MWDA figs, what is the motivation for a person who started with MWDA figs to switch over to real Battletech? Especially if such a person has a LOT of these Overpriced Cheap Plastic figures?
Apparently you missed the point. It's a way to allow people with MW:DA figs to use CBT rules to with MW:DA figs. Instead of buying a new set of metal minis. Most of it is simply going to be scale adjustments.
As to the motivation? That's different for everybody.
This also flies in the face of the whole "MWDA is a starter game to get people invoved with real Battletech" theory.
No. It doesn't. You start out playing MW:DA. Later on, if you move to a more complex game like CBT, there are a set of conversions available so you can bring your MW:DA figs with you and use them (like people use proxies in current BT games).
I gotta say, it sure looks like they are making every effort to replace real Battletech with this overpriced cheap plastic changeling.
That's only because you're not looking closely enough at it.
Plastic Posable Action Figures
They're not talking about posable action figures. They're talking about the level of detail that can be brought into a figure in plastic that would be difficult and cost-prohibitive to reproduce in metal.
And how do you get off thinking they're charging MORE for this? $20 for a starter set. Includes a mech, two vehicles, and 4 (IIRC) infantry units. $10 for a booster set. Includes a mech, a vehicle, and two infantry units.
How much would this cost you in metal at the CBT scale? And how much do you think it'd cost you in metal at the MW:DA scale?
Ok, now that's just mean.
Hey. The truth hurts. The original spider was butt ugly. Face it. And again, the aesthetic and production reasons aren't the only reasons, as the report states.
Plus it keeps a steady income to them.
Jeeze. Don't miss a beat do you.
1: It's a BAD THING <:TM>: to sit there and glut the market with tons and tons of figures all at once. Most of their target market simply doesn't have the cash on hand to collect all the figs all at once.
2: Heaven forfend them actually doing more than breaking even on a product they put out. I mean heck. It's only a business! They should just give the stuff away because some whiner wants it all his way.
Plus, Mike was feeling a little put out that he wasn't getting enough money.
And I'd like to know exactly how much experience you've had working in the business as an author. It'd make your arguments on this much stronger than they are.
Ok, still not clear why I would need to buy all new PPAF pieces when I have perfectly suitable metal 'Mechs. Oh, now I remember...because unless you have the click-bases you can't play.
At least make an effort to get your facts straight man. Some people, especially the older BT mini collectors, may want to collect MW:DA click-base versions of the metal minis they already have. And possibly play CBT in MW:DA scale with MW:DA figs.
And there's nothing stopping you from using metal minis or proxies in BT games and tournaments as you always have. So your charge of "if we don't have the plastic figs we can't play" is ludicrous. But you already know this right?
So either I can't play MWDA...or I have to buy a whole new collection.
What? You want to play MW:DA with the figs you already have? Sorry. You can't. Why should you be allowed to import figs from another game into MW:DA? And, as much as you seem to hate MW:DA (with what little you've seen of it), why would you want to?
until the other shoe drops, and this changeling actually DOES replace Battletech.
Wow. Talk about totally missing the clue-train.
MW:DA is not, never was intended as, and never will be a replacement for CBT. Got it?
I'm seeing nothing but bleak future for real Battletech.
Because you won't let yourself actually see anything else. CBT could go on another 30 years, and you'd be predicting it's demise at least once a month the entire time.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/10/02 05:47 PM
66.187.3.55
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Plastic vs metal..tell me which you rather have your sword made of in a fight?
That's not the point though. The point is that metal minis on the scale of MW:DA with the level of detail they're at would have been prohibitively expensive.
How many kids have $50 for a starter pack and $30 for a booster?
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/10/02 05:52 PM
63.173.170.224
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In reply to:
Chas wrote:
No. It doesn't. You start out playing MW:DA. Later on, if you move to a more complex game like CBT, there are a set of conversions available so you can bring your MW:DA figs with you and use them (like people use proxies in current BT games).
Using in proxies in BT doesn't change the scale or game play...using the MWDA plastic toys does...since they are taller then the metal minis.
In reply to:
Chas wrote:
What? You want to play MW:DA with the figs you already have? Sorry. You can't. Why should you be allowed to import figs from another game into MW:DA? And, as much as you seem to hate MW:DA (with what little you've seen of it), why would you want to?
This is nice, can't use BT figures in MWDA, BUT you can use MWDA figures in BT...sorry it should work both ways.
This is pointless WK is not targettng the BT crowd and it is showing. They want the Pokeimon/Salior Moon crowd.
Another nail in the coffin for MWDA...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/10/02 05:54 PM
63.173.170.224
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The questions is how many kids are going to be spending mommy and daddy's money to buy the boosters and starter kits...
And cheap plastic crap is better? Hell the plastic mechs from CityTech and 4th Ed. BT Box set look 5 times better then the MWDA lumps of plastic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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PeterSmith
07/10/02 06:13 PM
4.17.223.29
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"This is nice, can't use BT figures in MWDA, BUT you can use MWDA figures in BT...sorry it should work both ways."
Why?
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Karagin
07/10/02 07:45 PM
63.173.170.73
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Let's see:
1) It allows the existing fan base of BT to play the new game WITHOUT having to buy all new pieces. And this way the transition to the new timeline and such would be easier and smoother, plus it would stop a lot of the arguments that are on going over whether or not WK cares in any way about the current fan base of BT.
2) Would it not make sense to have a rule set that would allow for use of existing mech miniatures so as to allow those who only wish to use certain parts of the new timeline the ability to do so without having to buy all new miniatures...
And finial it would go a long way to showing that WK is thre for the fans of BOTH games and not just favoring one game.
Now since I am sure you will have a counter arguement, please tell us why it SHOULDN'T be a rule set to use the current metal miniatures in MWDA...
I am looking forward to hear this line of reasoning as I am sure are others.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
07/10/02 09:36 PM
209.242.100.230
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MW:DA is supposed to take place after a significant technology loss. Therefore, not every mech is likely to be seen, especially not custom designs. If CBT -> MW:DA conversion instructions were released, would it help either game?
If Dark Ages is meant to be an introduction to Battletech, it makes sense that players should be able to use their hard-bought, familiar units. They may (probably will) discover that the Dark Ages units are usually primitive and weak compared to 3025 mechs, thus encouraging them to go with the Classic units.
The above is based on my personnal observations (especially the part about people being power-hungry).
Disagree if you will, but this just may introduce a whole new sibko of munchkins to Battletech.
meow
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Warner_Doles
07/10/02 10:25 PM
206.27.48.9
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And cheap plastic crap is better? Hell the plastic mechs from CityTech and 4th Ed. BT Box set look 5 times better then the MWDA lumps of plastic.
[Rand On]
No they aren't they suck. I have them all. And I will tell you this they suck to the Nth degree. I have used them for filler they are that bad. The ones coming in MWDA put those cheap crap plastic to shame. If anything I have ever hated were those minatures.. they sucked! The freaking Catapult looked like a bloated warthog...grr.. don't get me started. You are as wrong as wrong gets on this one Karagin. Those things SUCK SUCK SUCK!!!!
[Rant Off!]
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Karagin
07/10/02 10:26 PM
63.173.170.104
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If you say so...I disagree. 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/10/02 10:27 PM
63.173.170.104
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Just what we need...more munchkins... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
07/10/02 10:37 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Hey. The truth hurts. The original spider was butt ugly. Face it.<<<
I will disagree with you on this solitary point, Chas.
The Spider is visually one of my favorite 'Mechs. I was VERY vexed to see its appealing and unique visual profile replaced with something so....generic.
UGLY is a matter of personal taste, as is whether or not 'Mechs are SUPPOSED to be ugly.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
07/10/02 10:42 PM
4.35.174.250
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You don't. It you want to write a novel on a smaller scale, write a novel on a smaller scale.
There are over four trillion people in the Inner Sphere. Why stick us with the same characters over and over and over and over...
...get my drift?
Oh well.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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novakitty
07/10/02 11:27 PM
209.242.100.230
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Nah, all the new mechs are ugly, the Mackie, now was a beutiful piece of machinery...sorry, I cannot even type that with a straight face.
meow
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Chas
07/11/02 01:55 AM
66.187.3.9
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Using in proxies in BT doesn't change the scale or game play...using the MWDA plastic toys does...since they are taller then the metal minis.
No kidding. Other than the scale conversions, what else is going to change?
This is nice, can't use BT figures in MWDA, BUT you can use MWDA figures in BT...sorry it should work both ways.
Because YOU, Karagin say so right?
It's a new product with a different audience that BT enjoys.
And remember that part about NOT being as much of a barrier to new players as CBT does?
Oh yes. And how are they to run click-base conversions for your mech?
This is pointless WK is not targettng the BT crowd and it is showing.
Finally sinking in eh?
Another nail in the coffin for MWDA...
Simply because they don't aim the product at a shrinking market segment.
Ho-KAY!
If you're expecting MW:DA to be a BT add-on, get ready for a MASSIVE disappointment.
It ain't. And it won't be. Yes, some of the source material for the timeline will get translated over to CBT supplements. But the game itself isn't going to be interchangeable with CBT.
Now if you're done with your predictions of doom based on statements of the obvious, move along.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 01:57 AM
66.187.3.9
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Hell the plastic mechs from CityTech and 4th Ed. BT Box set look 5 times better then the MWDA lumps of plastic.
Do you have an argument that ISN'T based in hyperbolic statements of personal preference?
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 02:08 AM
66.187.3.9
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It allows the existing fan base of BT to play the new game WITHOUT having to buy all new pieces.
Why should you be allowed to?
Do you ask to sub Pokemon TCG cards in M:TG?
Do you try to use your minis in a game of checkers and demand physical attacks?
Let's see if I can make this any clearer.
IT IS A DIFFERENT GAME! YOU CANNOT IMPORT CBT PIECES IN BECAUSE THEY DON'T WORK WITHIN THE GAME FRAMEWORK!
There. Am I getting through?
And this way the transition to the new timeline and such would be easier and smoother,
How? Pray tell?
The new timeline is happening regardless of what happens. You can play CBT in the new timeline. You can play MW:DA which is set in the new timeline. You can even use MW:DA pieces with scale conversions to play CBT in the new timeline. But you still cannot bring game pieces from outside of the MW:DA lineup in.
plus it would stop a lot of the arguments that are on going over whether or not WK cares in any way about the current fan base of BT.
They care about the fan base. They don't care about people who simply want in on the ground floor of a new game without any investment in it whatsoever, because of superficial similarities between their new game and the one these leeches are playing.
If you simply want to play CBT, you need not make any further investments.
If you want to play MW:DA, YOU HAVE TO BUY THE GAME.
If you want to play CBT with MW:DA figures, you have to buy MW:DA figures.
Those are your three options.
Stop daming WK and FP for not giving you the option to come into a new game with an unfair advantage that brand new players don't have.
Would it not make sense to have a rule set that would allow for use of existing mech miniatures so as to allow those who only wish to use certain parts of the new timeline the ability to do so without having to buy all new miniatures...
No, because it gives you an unfair advantage that brand new players don't have.
And finial it would go a long way to showing that WK is thre for the fans of BOTH games and not just favoring one game.
No it would not. It would simply show they don't have a shread of business sense, and would allow a bunch of old-time BT players to field massive forces that simply could not be matched by new players.
I figure that, since I have restated this now a few times in the same post, you should be able to catch the gist of it.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 02:11 AM
66.187.3.9
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Bob. Then you're going to have to wait till Mike's first book comes out to find out the fictional reasons that the mech looks different.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 02:12 AM
66.187.3.9
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Mostly because people who ARE happy with the current set of novels begin bitching "show more of Victor!", "let's see more Clan Councils!"
The jump allows them to start fresh with fewer of these entanglements.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Acolyte
07/11/02 02:59 AM
142.179.27.248
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I think that's the way they should have gone in the first place. That way you don't have the escelation with every book. A series that deals with the big events in the inner sphere is great, but it shouldn't be the only thing written. I like the Gray Death books for that reason. Granted the memory core in the third did effect the universe, but how was not in the book.
I think they should have had much more in the way of small scale.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Karagin
07/11/02 03:03 AM
63.173.170.96
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Do you have a counter agruement that isn't based on your personal friendship with those making MWDA?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 03:08 AM
63.173.170.96
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No I am not done.
No not because I say so, because it would make sense to not only draw in new players and a new market but also to keep the current fans and market in the loop and allow them a way in that would really help BOTH games.
But some how that was lost you and the others.
Shrinking market...right and the 8 to 14 years olds are going to be playing MWDA after six months? Some how I think the next fad will have taken them away from MWDA...just like all the other collectiable games it will have a good 6 months and then die off...and the prices they are asking for a starter and a booster are not going to help sell it to the actual folks buying it...the parents.
But hey you and Jordan seem to know more then anyone else about who is going to be buying this game. So please tell us more so we can all be up to speed on this marvelous wonder of yours.
But never mind, it's clear enough were things stand and so let's leave it at that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 03:14 AM
63.173.170.96
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Amazing...
You say it's a different, yet you have said there will rules to bring the MWDA units in to Battletech...ok two different games...sure right if you say so.
IF the current miniatures, ie the metal ones, could be used in MWDA it would kill the biggest arguement against MWDA that folks have, the need to buy all new mechs.
What unfair adavantage? How will having a Fireball be unfair?" Or having a Patton tank? The units are CONVERTED to work with in the scale and system of the MWDA, thus they would have the same draw backs as all MWDA units. Nothign unfair there.
Oh the new players can match and beat our collections since they will have to buy tons of Plastic mechs and such to be able to play the game...thus rendering our stuff out numbered.
But never mind, it's clear enough were things stand and so let's leave it at that.
Peter, I am still looking forward to your comments...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
07/11/02 03:51 AM
63.12.148.2
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I haven't heard much of that. I have probably heard more of 'why haven't they continued the Jerehmiah Rose series?' than people demanding more of Victor written in books.
Maybe you are thinking along the lines of if they write about a major character (which invariably they do much to my dismay) that the major character should be Victor.
They had never written a novel based in Taurian Concordat as far as I know. Nor have I heard anything of the Outworlds Alliance written. Only later did they write about the Magistry and that was pure puke material (again major characters and a non-major novel). 
'The jump allows them to start fresh with fewer of these entanglements'
It does? But you have the same authors who wrote the small story major character method for the current universe, how can that work? Even in the submitted short story the person was related to someone who was a backbone of the history.
All I can say is Old Dog, Old Tricks.
Greyslayer
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Greyslayer
07/11/02 04:25 AM
63.12.148.2
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The darker Grey Plastic minis is what he is referring to. The ones where the Marauder has to be well and truly 'soldered' together just to stop it from sprining apart (I've seen few actually stay together for any length of time but apart from that are not far off the Metal Minis). Those Light Grey plastic minis are pretty horrible I agree.... still you could buy alot of them for the price of one MW:DA starter pack. Or as Karagin says those Citytech ones even though the Centurion nearly drags his knuckles .
From what I have seen of these plastic minis I haven't thought much of. You must be privvy to things several times better than I have seen otherwise old age has caught up to your eye-sight ;p.
Greyslayer
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Chas
07/11/02 07:42 AM
66.187.6.50
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Do you have a counter agruement that isn't based on your personal friendship with those making MWDA?
Okay. Very funny. Ha. Ha.
Now answer the question. Do you have any arguments about this that aren't simply based on your personal biases?
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 07:49 AM
66.187.6.50
|
You say it's a different, yet you have said there will rules to bring the MWDA units in to Battletech...ok two different games...sure right if you say so.
Okay. Stop with the stupid act(?) Karagin.
Using MW:DA figures in CBT is similar to using proxies. Except that there can be (but don't neccessarily have to be) modifications based on the scale of the MW:DA minis. Just like you could use CAV minis, etc in CBT.
IF the current miniatures, ie the metal ones, could be used in MWDA it would kill the biggest arguement against MWDA that folks have, the need to buy all new mechs.
Okay Karagin. How do you generate click-base stats for such a piece? Or are you just talking about proxying it for another piece that IS click-based that you already own?
IF the current miniatures, ie the metal ones, could be used in MWDA it would kill the biggest arguement against MWDA that folks have, the need to buy all new mechs.
If you simply want stats for MW:DA assigned to your pre-existing CBT minis, you start out with a possibly VAST army compared to newbie players. One they'd have to make a HUGE investment in metal or MW:DA minis to duplicate.
Why should you be allowed this?
Because it'll keep your feelings from being hurt?
C'mon. A nice, rational explanation shouldn't be too tough to manage.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Warner_Doles
07/11/02 08:36 AM
206.27.40.65
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Eh? Did you say something sonny?
I've got both sets. While the CityTech 'Mechs are good, they pale in comparison to the detail that the MWDA 'Mechs have. When the entire line is out people will get the full load of information. But I do understand there are those that have already killed off any idea of giving the new game a chance. That's only natural. Classic BattleTech is still here and we have something special coming very soon.....
Don't ask, because I am not going to tell....
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 09:43 AM
216.24.92.31
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Still and all, I think the mechs coming out look like the cheesy toys they are.
(Rant On) No target, just blowing off steam.
And the problem with these kids are that they will buy lots and lots of plastic toys that cannot be redesigned, like our mechs, cannot be repainted to preferences, like our mechs. No imagination, no creativity for the kids, let their brains turn to mush.
"I got plastic prepainted, predesigned mechs"
Oh well I got metal, personalily painted, personally desinged mechs that will shove that ugly looking circular saw up your bum. Corporate America wants these kids to conform to their designs so that they can make money off of their mommies and daddies. "I gotta get this rae/unique, must spend hundreds of dollars" What ever happened to a mechwarrior's skill progression. You take a mech, assemble it, paint it, put a warrior that I hope you put some thought into, and gradually make him better by fighting in games. Not because mommy and daddy bought you a trillion Booster sets until you had the perfect predesigned, pre painted TOY.
Ok..done with that.
And anyhoos, call me an old man, but I paid for the majority of my mechs with an allowance OR by winning them in pink slip battles. Now-a-days I buy them, when i can find them, with money I earned. Yes mom and pop GAVE me the allowance, but I damn shure worked for it.
Ok I hope I am done
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 09:47 AM
216.24.92.31
|
I agree...old Plastech and the newer Plastech both sucked...why because they were plastic imitations.
Take an Atlas, either the remake or the old one and compare it to the smiling lump of plastic from plastech....I admit the plastic is ugly, but thats not the point. The point is creativity...teh ability to paint even those goofy looking plastechs the way you wanted to and to design a mech to fit your fighting style, not to be some conformist.
Carlin had it right, you pays your money and you get what tehy jolly well want to give you, which in this case is plastic toys for eight year olds.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 09:55 AM
216.24.92.31
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"If you simply want stats for MW:DA assigned to your pre-existing CBT minis, you start out with a possibly VAST army compared to newbie players. One they'd have to make a HUGE investment in metal or MW:DA minis to duplicate."
Ok....so BT cannot be allowed in just because an eight year old screams, ITS NOT FAIR??? For 18 years I have seen players come to BT, everyone of them started with 1 or 2 minis and now some of them have built up their armies over time. I got right at 1,000 minis if a newbie sits down to play and wants to use 2 minis, I pick 2 minis and I fight him, if he wants to use more minis...HE CAN BORROW SOME...its not like I am gonna spend hours setting up a couple of hundred minis to blwo some lil kids mind out of the water.
Grow up kis, life ain't fair.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 09:57 AM
216.24.92.31
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Yeah write one about my character :P
j/k
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Warner_Doles
07/11/02 11:27 AM
206.27.40.65
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Ok....so BT cannot be allowed in just because an eight year old screams, ITS NOT FAIR??? For 18 years I have seen players come to BT, everyone of them started with 1 or 2 minis and now some of them have built up their armies over time.
I don't believe this was the point he is making. The point, I believe, is this is a new game, it has new pieces to play this new game. The miniatures used in Classic BattleTech are not for the new game because they are out of scale and too expensive to make the new game affordable. Compare the cost of a Booster Pack with 1 Mech, 2 Tanks and 1 Infantry unit to that of equal number of metal miniatures. A Booster Pack costs $9.95 to which you buy 1 Metal 'Mech at 9.50 (avg), 1 package with 2 armored vehicle at 7.50 (avg) and an infantry unit at 5.50 (avg). That's $22.50 for the lot to equal the Booster Pack's contents which makes the metal miniatures 56% more expensive then the Booster Pack.
MWDA is a less expensive game to start up with and play. Its not a game targeted at 8 year olds. Its target at those 10 and up. Where as Classic BattleTech was targeted at 12 and up. You don't have to keep buying buying and buying as many are claiming you have to just to collect. Heck you can buy the Starter Kit at $19.95 and 10 Booster Packs at $9.95 and have invested a grand total of $119.45 excluding taxes. And for your investment you have the following: (Bob, you get invested into this game and use the units in CBT as proxies if you want! It is allowed. )
11 BattleMechs
22 Armored Vehicles
15 Infantry Units
36-page rule book
1 Special Equipment Card
3 Dice
1 Flexible Ruler
You don't need to buy anymore if you don't want to. You've got your unit if you want. That is all you have to purchase. Its what I am going to do and be done with it! I dare say you can not spend $119.45 on Classic BattleTech products and get even a quarter of what you get with MWDA. This is what the new game is about. Being affordable, not burdened with a ton of detailed rules and regulations, is fast because its not time consuming like a standard Classic BattleTech lance/star vs lance/star game is. And most of all its fun to play. How do I know? I play tested this thing in the beginning. It has a lot to offer those who are willing to be open minded, reasonable and sensible about the game in not comparing MWDA to Classic BattleTech's mechanics and rules set. There are no comparisons. They are two completely different and seperate systems. You looking for a fast large unit battle of Battalion vs Battalion? MWDA game is your venue. You want that detailed personal lance on lance battle? Then Classic BattleTech is the venue. MWDA is a benefit for everyone who is willing to be open to something new. And if you don't want to play it or give it a shot, that's your choice. I will respect that. I cannot though understand how anyone can arbitrarily dismiss the new game without even giving it a really good try at it. But that is your choice. Anyway this is what MWDA has to offer everyone. It is up to you to want to play it or not. Its not that expensive to get into and play. Just the choice if you want to support WizKids or not. That's what it comes down to ultimately!
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 12:45 PM
216.24.92.31
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Not bad Warner
You ware right about the expese associated with BT or CBT as it is also termed. I was just trying to make a point concerning kids who want a large army feeling it was unfair that current CBT players already had a large army.
Although I do have to admit after reading your post and comparing with about the past 3 or 4 emails I have gotten
Crow does not taste all that bad...has a sorta chicken taste to it
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Durango
07/11/02 01:03 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
D> So, let me get this straight...Stone's confederation exists alongside of all the Houses? This seems to be at variance with other things I have read.
C>Yup. This is why we ask that people try not to go up in flames until they have all the information.
Well, then I thank you. This was new information I was not previously aware of. How much more do you know? For instance, can you tell me how it was that the houses stood idly by while Mr. Stone was busy shuttling people between houses in his forced-relocation schemes?
In reply to:
D>Ah, so that's it. Once they have made rules which allow the use of MWDA figs, what is the motivation for a person who started with MWDA figs to switch over to real Battletech? Especially if such a person has a LOT of these Overpriced Cheap Plastic figures?
D>Apparently you missed the point. It's a way to allow people with MW:DA figs to use CBT rules to with MW:DA figs. Instead of buying a new set of metal minis. Most of it is simply going to be scale adjustments.
As to the motivation? That's different for everybody.
Ok, if I missed it before (I didn't) then I should understand it now, and just so you can see that I do, I'm going to paraphrase: The idea of making the new rules is so people can play with the new OCP minis, using real Battletech rules.
Now, I'm going to clarify my point, so you can see what I meant (which I wasn't sure you understood).
I believe that the purpose behind making new rules is so people can play with the Mage Tech minis, exclusively. Just to further clarify, I believe that the reason behind this is so Jordan can distance his game from the real Battletech. The reason he wants to do this is because he wants HIS Overpriced Cheap Plastic to sell, and not the metal minis. He makes less from royalties than he does from direct sales.
Saying "The idea behind making the new rules is so people can play with the new Posable Plastic Action Figures using real Battletech rules" is merely a restatement of "We're making it so you don't have to buy metal to play Battletech", and since A+B=C, then B+A=C, so: "The reason we're making the new rules is so you can throw out your old rules, and your old minis, and play with OUR Mage Tech minis".
Which flies in the face of the whole pacification which was being offered to people who play real Battletech, ie, "The new game is a way to get people involved in YOUR game", in fact, it's not, it's a way to get people playing with HIS game or more accurately, HIS Overpriced Cheap Plastic.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
In reply to:
D> This also flies in the face of the whole "MWDA is a starter game to get people invoved with real Battletech" theory.
C>No. It doesn't. You start out playing MW:DA. Later on, if you move to a more complex game like CBT, there are a set of conversions available so you can bring your MW:DA figs with you and use them (like people use proxies in current BT games).
No. If you're playing with Magetech figures, you are NOT playing Battletech. You are playing Mage Tech, with Battletech rules (and with these new rules, who's to say they'll even be Battletech rules? They'll probably be pseudo-Battletech). The scale and the minis are what makes it Geniune Battletech. Playing with oversized dollies is NOT playing Battletech. (Else, you may just as well use Barbie dolls as proxies. "I'm going to hit him with my PPC!" (Holds up hairdryer.))
WHO AGREES WITH ME? I say, "If you're playing in the wrong scale with Mage Tech Posable Action Figures, you're not playing Battletech". Who agrees?
In reply to:
D>I gotta say, it sure looks like they are making every effort to replace real Battletech with this overpriced cheap plastic changeling.
C>That's only because you're not looking closely enough at it.
That's because I have been looking at it closely. And I don't like what I see. There is a trend, it is towards the extinction of real Battletech. Anyone who plays this Mage Tech is helping in the extinction.
In reply to:
D> Plastic Posable Action Figures
C> They're not talking about posable action figures. They're talking about the level of detail that can be brought into a figure in plastic that would be difficult and cost-prohibitive to reproduce in metal.
Detail? What, you mean because they make the grooves in the plastic deeper? There is detail in metal minis, and it can be brought out easily by anyone competent enough to hold a paintbrush. I really would like to hear exactly what detail you are referring to.
If you ask me, they switched to plastic because they can produce it cheaper and faster. Getting this level of "detail" (already available in metal) was the excuse they gave, to pacify the easily pacified.
In reply to:
And how do you get off thinking they're charging MORE for this? $20 for a starter set. Includes a mech, two vehicles, and 4 (IIRC) infantry units. $10 for a booster set. Includes a mech, a vehicle, and two infantry units.
How much would this cost you in metal at the CBT scale? And how much do you think it'd cost you in metal at the MW:DA scale?
Depends...is it a collectible (meaning, I have to buy tons of c rap before I get what I want) system? In that case, it'd be horribly expensive...and in parallel with any collectible scheme, those who have spent hundreds of dollars to get the only pieces worth anything will be selling them at scalper's prices.
On the other hand, if it were normal, buy the piece you want marketing, I could get the important pieces (the MECH) for about $6-8 bucks. The "starter" and "booster" set are full of superflous, redundant, and REPETITIVE non-necessary pieces, put there for the exclusive purpose of selling more Overpriced Cheap Plastic.
Using your example, I could get what I wanted for about $8 bucks...and leave the rest of the c rap on the shelf.
Which, by the way, if they're going to make the game playable by real Battletech rules, most people will leave the rest of their c rap at home, and play with JUST THE MECHS...THAT'S what Battletech IS.
Of the people I talk to, anyway...using Infantry, vehicles, aero is not common. They play Battletech with 'Mechs.
In reply to:
D>Ok, now that's just mean.
C>Hey. The truth hurts. The original spider was butt ugly. Face it. And again, the aesthetic and production reasons aren't the only reasons, as the report states.
"As the report states"...that's like saying you believe something just because it was written down. (Points to page, "Look, it's right here in black & white!") Cheap plastic.
The Spider (the REAL Spider) is elegant. The plastic Spider is cludgy, over-complicated, over-designed. It is a cheap knockoff, and made worse by the fact it's a combination of cheap knockoffs, and yet even worse, it's not the first to be a cheap knockoff (making it a knockoff OF a knockoff).
In reply to:
D> Plus it keeps a steady income to them.
C> Jeeze. Don't miss a beat do you.
The public has a right to be COUNTER-spun.
In reply to:
C>
1: It's a BAD THING (TM) to sit there and glut the market with tons and tons of figures all at once. Most of their target market simply doesn't have the cash on hand to collect all the figs all at once.
2: Heaven forfend them actually doing more than breaking even on a product they put out. I mean heck. It's only a business! They should just give the stuff away because some whiner wants it all his way.
1. That's nice, but let's not forget that Wizkids is not selling a product out of the goodness of their hearts, and they're not doing it to be nice to kids all over the world. They're in it for the money. They made it sound like, "Oh, the kids are our most precious resources! We don't want to inconvenience them by putting too much product out at once! They'll be unhappy that they can't own them all!" When the truth is, good marketing dictates that you don't flood the market when your buyers can't buy it all. JIT (Just In Time) marketing, ideally, would have a new cycle, or replenish the current cycle, about every two weeks...AT THE END OF PAY PERIODS. After all, you want to exploit them as much as possible, without bleeding them dry.
2. "forfend"? What does this mean? Speak English, man!
In reply to:
D>Plus, Mike was feeling a little put out that he wasn't getting enough money.
C> And I'd like to know exactly how much experience you've had working in the business as an author. It'd make your arguments on this much stronger than they are.
I don't have to have any experience, everything I said can be gleaned from reading Mike's own words. I rest on HIS case. Did you even read his letters? Did you understand them?
In reply to:
D>Ok, still not clear why I would need to buy all new PPAF pieces when I have perfectly suitable metal 'Mechs. Oh, now I remember...because unless you have the click-bases you can't play.
C>At least make an effort to get your facts straight man. Some people, especially the older BT mini collectors, may want to collect MW:DA click-base versions of the metal minis they already have. And possibly play CBT in MW:DA scale with MW:DA figs.
Ok, this is not the first time that someone has tried to involve facts. Which facts are you referring to? Instead of implying that I don't have my facts straight, you should tell me what the facts are, and then tell me what I haven't got straight. What are the facts, Chas?
As for those people who want to switch scale...I'm sure there will be those people. I'm also wondering what would cause a person who has hundreds of dollars in real Battletech to switch to playing with dolls. I really believe that a person who has hundreds of dollars of real Battletech investment is one of two types: the diehard collector, who is simply looking to start another collection, or a person who wants to play in such a manner with his kids, so he can teach them how to play real Battletech.
In any case, I don't think that such a person would be common, and by the way, what does this have to do with what I was talking about...which was, IIRC, being coerced into buying a whole new collection?
In reply to:
C>And there's nothing stopping you from using metal minis or proxies in BT games and tournaments as you always have. So your charge of "if we don't have the plastic figs we can't play" is ludicrous. But you already know this right?
Well, you're right...but in that same vien, there's nothing stopping me from wearing floodwater pants, or mismatched socks, or doing any other act which would make me look silly. (Not that I've never looked silly, but why deliberately?)
And proxies in a strictly Battletech match, that's nothing unusual...but using a Battletech mini in a Mage Tech game, or vice versa? Mismatched, wrong scale, looks silly. Not to mention, IT HAS NO CLICK BASE...but you already knew this, right?
Are you just trying to cloud this issue? I think maybe (more likely) you didn't understand what I meant.
Here, this next line breaks it down:
In reply to:
D>So either I can't play MWDA...or I have to buy a whole new collection.
C>What? You want to play MW:DA with the figs you already have? Sorry. You can't.
I know that. That's been my beef all along. Why didn't they make the game in the correct scale? If they had, I'd buy the minis and strip the bases off, that's why. They don't want us playing Battletech, they want us playing Mage Tech. If they can't get us to play Magetech, then they'll make up a new set of Battletech-like rules so we can play a Battletech-like game, but it must be with THEIR Overpriced Cheap Plastic C rap.
In reply to:
Why should you be allowed to import figs from another game into MW:DA? And, as much as you seem to hate MW:DA (with what little you've seen of it), why would you want to?
So aggressive! Ok, to answer your first question, why should I have to? If Wizkids would have done it right and make the 'Mechs in the correct scale (and they could have, you know), then that wouldn't have been an issue.
As for your second question...if they'd done it right, that wouldn't have been an issue either. However, since they did it wrong, it merely makes for one more point of contention. In fact, I don't want to, now...but there may have been people out there who'd wanted to (if you can posit people who want to collect OCP, I can posit people who'd want to mix minis). In fact, these people who might have wanted to cannot, with any degree of verisimilitude, and especially not now that the new system requires click-bases.
But the reason why they made it different was so people COULDN'T mix minis. First, a Battletech mini would wipe up the board with these cheapo knock-offs, and second, people playing with plastic and metal could not HELP but notice how superiour the quality of metal is to plastic, and how the metal figures look sooooo much better than plastic. That's BAD (tm) for Wizkids.
In reply to:
D>until the other shoe drops, and this changeling actually DOES replace Battletech.
Wow. Talk about totally missing the clue-train.
Well, apparently, ONE of us did. By the way, nice snipe. Am I allowed to be rude, now?
In reply to:
D> MW:DA is not, never was intended as, and never will be a replacement for CBT. Got it?
Again, one of us is not getting it. In one way, though, I agree with you. Magetech is a poor replacment for real Battletech. That's why, once it overbears real Battletech, it's going to burn out...leaving both games as mere memories.
In reply to:
D> I'm seeing nothing but bleak future for real Battletech.
C>Because you won't let yourself actually see anything else. CBT could go on another 30 years, and you'd be predicting it's demise at least once a month the entire time.
Nope. Because neither one will last that long. Want to bet?
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Karagin
07/11/02 01:34 PM
63.173.170.5
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No, what it would do is allow the older players to get into the new game with what they already have, thus the support and help of the older players can be passed on to the incomming crowd and at the same time the chance to show of the BT is there as well, thus both game get support.
Now can you drop your little immature act and stop trying to be something you are not? Or is that asking to much?
It's one thing for me or anyone else to post that we don't like something for what ever reasons, and while I admit some of the posting I have seen have pused the line, responding back in the same manner doesn't do anything to keep folks rational or on track.
If you want to talk about something how you stop with baiting and try looking at things from both sides.
Now in case it was forgotten, we have two sides here actually three if you want to get techincal.
Side A is made up of folks who like the new game and will be playing it as much if no more then BT.
Side B is made up of folks who have looked at the new pieces, read the WK release notes etc...and feel that the game in their opinion is not worth it and they are upset that BT is going to be in any way connected with it.
Now Side C is made up of those waiting to see the game and it's pices and to play it at least once before making a call on it.
Now my question is this if it's okay for Side A to say what they want, why then is not okay for Side B to do the same without all the attacks on them?
As I have said before, folks will find something that they don't like because each person as different tastes and likes. For example, a good friend of mine will only play BT with book mechs and units, he doesn't like custom made mechs or home tech. The others in my group using everying under the sun in the game as long as we are having fun. Either way we are having funning and our likes and dislikes aren't in the way.
Now for stats for the metal minis in MWDA....should be to hard to come up with them since one could look at what a similar weighted unit has and go from there. As you said CAV miniatures can be used, and as I have done others too have taken the stats of CAV units and built them as BT mechs...makes for some interesting mechs and thus the minis are used ala BT. One of the guys on the STEEL PANTHERS YAHOO GROUP was asking for advice on converting BT to CAV so he could use the BT mechs and vehicles in the CAV universe.
Now you and the others feel that the older players have to many mechs and mechs that would clean the board of the "newer" Dark Age mechs, that may be the case, but would not the rules dealing with rare mechs prevent said stampdee? Or a higher point count that forces one to either go with common units over rare?
But as I said, if Jordan wanted the older fans then somethng like this would have been done in my opinion, and based on the fact that it's not there and also based on the flak you are giving it, it seems it won't be there and thus the point is made crystal clear that he is not that interested in the older fans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 01:36 PM
63.173.170.5
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Not funny at all. You are asking me if I have any arguements that are not bias and I asking you do you have any counterpoints that are biased do to your friendship with Jordan and Randal?
It's a fair question, since anything I post you seem to want to turn into a three ring ciricus with your snide remarks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 01:38 PM
65.212.106.131
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Durango> You can't use real Battletech figures in Mage Tech, they have no click-bases.
Karagin> "This is nice, can't use BT figures in MWDA, BUT you can use MWDA figures in BT...sorry it should work both ways."
Peter>Why?
Karagin>
Let's see: [D>Mind if I paraphrase, and organize?]
You should be able to use BT figures in MWDA because:
...it would allow the existing fan base to play the new game without having to buy all new pieces.
...it would make the transition to the new timeline (and such) easier and smoother
...it would stop a lot of the arguements which are are going on over whether or not WK cares about the original fan base
...it would show that WK is not putting all it's power behind only one game while deliberately sabotaging the other
...(with a new rule set), it would allow the use of existing mechs in the new timeline
Now since I am sure you will have a counter arguement, please tell us why it SHOULDN'T be a rule set to use the current metal miniatures in MWDA...
I don't want to argue, but I'd like to point out a few things:
...they don't want anyone playing the game, unless they buy the new pieces. They BUILT it that way.
...they don't care about how smooth the transition is, this game is not for the previous fan base.
...(see above.)
...how many times do I have to repeat myself? Wizkids is putting all their muscle behind this new product, and they don't care if they snuff out Battletech in the process. They also don't care what we think...that's why we need to SHOW them how we feel. Who said it? Vote with your wallet. (I also intend to discourage people at local shops from buying Magetech. I'm certain that parents will listen to my "legalized gambling for kiddies" routine. I also have the attention of two Florida legislators, and I'm making my point.)
...a new rule set would require too much effort. In order to use your existing minis in a Wizkids game (assuming you could get over the fact that you were playing with dollies), you'd have to design new Hex click-bases for your metal minis. According to them, they spend MUCHO time "playtesting" this new system. They are not going to spend any effort releasing official stats and retro-fit click bases for real Battletech minis, they are too busy desinging new pieces for their new game. After all, why design anything for a game you're trying to bury?
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Karagin
07/11/02 01:42 PM
63.173.170.5
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Why would it be so hard for them to support and allow the minis from BT into MWDA?
Correct if I am wrong, but both games share the same history and background...both have mechs and if I am not mistaken the mechs in BT are still around in MWDA, just not in large numbers...so a conversion system would be helpful and make it easier for the those who want to play the new game but don't want to buy new miniatures to play it with.
And on a flexibilty note, BT ability to be able to anything for a mech as long as you have signal mech sheet, some dice, a pencial and table to play and the rule book, seem s to offer more then the locked in system of MWDA...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
07/11/02 01:50 PM
24.44.238.62
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"the scale and the minis are what makes it Geniune Battletech."
No. That's MWDA's whole point: the minis make the game.
And I say that's bunk. Battletech can be played with 1 piece of paper, 1 pencil, and 1D6. What does it take to play MWDA? A box of plastic? Some fancy dials? But that's not the worst of it. The single--and I do mean single--factor that keeps me interested in Battletech (the game, not the universe) is the fact that you can make your own units. That's not just part of the BT experience, that is the BT experience. That's the key to the game.
That's what makes it fun.
And it would be very simple to design construction rules for MWDA. Heck, just use BT construction rules and then use a conversion formula (like, say, BattleForce or BattleSpace style abstracting to 1 attack number, 1 armor number, etc.)
But that's not the what makes for "Genuine ClickTech." What makes for Genuine ClickTech--and for Genuine Moolah--is minis. Unchangeable, clickable, collectable, profitable minis.
Oh, and: "Heaven forfend" is a figure of speech, and a sarcastic one at that, roughly equivalent to "God forbid..."
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Durango
07/11/02 02:01 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
Quoting Novakitty:
MWDA is supposed to take place after a significant technology loss. Therefore, not every mech is likely to be seen, especially not custom designs. If CBT -> MW:DA conversion instructions were released, would it help either game?
As I understood it, there was no technology loss, only a loss of communications...the only reason people are taping pellet guns to their lawnmowers is because most (but not all) 'Mechs were "retired" (ie, made not available). The operative word here, is "most".
And as far as 'custom' designs, what do you think all these Agri-Mechs are, if not customized?
I'm not sure how to answer your last question. However, if your questions was "If Battletech rules for using the Mage Tech figures were released, would it help either game?", then I'd say, no. It is already too late to be mixing minis. The only thing that would result in is a replacement for Battletech, ie, those who owned large collections of OCP Mage Tech minis would be decieved in to thinking that they didn't need to buy FanPro materials to play real Battletech. They'd just buy the new suppliment for Mage Tech, and not even bother with real Battletech. This would be "A Bad Thing (tm)" for real Battletech. Less purchasing from FanPro hastens our demise.
In reply to:
If Dark Ages is meant to be an introduction to Battletech, it makes sense that players should be able to use their hard-bought, familiar units. They may (probably will) discover that the Dark Ages units are usually primitive and weak compared to 3025 mechs, thus encouraging them to go with the Classic units.
Ok, not sure who your advocating for here, on one hand it looks like you're saying that it would be good for Mage Tech to have allowed real Battletech minis into the game, then your next comment seems to point out that the result of that would be for kids to realize how much plastic sucks.
Unless you're saying that by the time they realize what a useless thing a Leafblower 'Mech is, there will be enough OCP Magetech "Classic Knockoffs" out so they can just switch to those.
Which, while it would play right into Wizkids' hands (sell more Overpriced Cheap Plastic!), it would still not be a good thing for real Battletech. (What good does it do to point out that Lawngoat is a silly piece of plastic, if they only agree with you and buy the other silly piece of plastic Spider?)
In reply to:
The above is based on my personnal observations (especially the part about people being power-hungry).
Disagree if you will, but this just may introduce a whole new sibko of munchkins to Battletech.
"This" what? What will introduce them?
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Khan_Robinette
07/11/02 02:11 PM
216.24.109.59
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"And as far as 'custom' designs, what do you think all these Agri-Mechs are, if not customized?"
That has been one thing I had never thought of till now, it is not like every farm boy is gonna quit plowing the fields and modify his agro mech with the same weapons. On some planets AC's may be easier to find than a LRM system. Others may have access to higher tech items such as Streaks and Gauss Rifles...so every Agromech that is modified for war is gonna be different. Of course maybe BillyBob may like JimBob's mech and trick it out similiarly, but across the worlds of war there are going to be many variants..yet how are these different mechs going to be represented by the Same Lawn Boy Clicktech Chassis?
Imagination...that has been my argument all the long while, and MW:DA is killing it for kids. No painting, no designing, heck thats half the fun if you ask me
Yes they're cheaper and yes they cater to a different crowd, but that crowd is a drooling bunch of mindless idiots who are always going to be playing with the same agromech whilst I customize my mech using creativity, something someone in WhizKids has obviously lost.
Now where was I?
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Karagin
07/11/02 02:22 PM
63.173.170.5
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As Chas has said in his counter agruements to me, they (Jordan and company) won't do this since it gives the older player to much advantage over the new ones by giving us rare mechs in droves to take on the OPC mechs.
BUT yet they are going to be comming out with rules to allow in the OPC mechs into normal BT...again it would be more profittable and better support to the fans to have it go both ways...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 02:23 PM
63.173.170.5
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Nice summary...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 02:26 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
K>Using in proxies in BT doesn't change the scale or game play...using the MWDA plastic toys does...since they are taller then the metal minis.
C>No kidding. Other than the scale conversions, what else is going to change?
Scale is enough. In fact, it's too much. But I think (before you jumped all over him) that he was merely saying that it looks retarded to use a wrong-size proxy. If you don't care about what size your proxy is, and you don't care about the game at all (which SOMEONE here seems to be evincing) then you might just as well use a StarWars action figure.
In reply to:
K> This is nice, can't use BT figures in MWDA, BUT you can use MWDA figures in BT...sorry it should work both ways.
C>Because YOU, Karagin say so right?
What you seem to be ignoring is that it is more than just Karagin who says so. As a matter of fact, I don't know if you had your head in your fourth point of contact a few months ago, but there was a massive backlash at Wizkids when we all first heard of it...or have you conveniently forgotten that by now?
What happened to all these people? Some of them bought into the marketing propoganda. Others put their resentment and anger on the shelf until such time as they could see whether or not it was justified (different marketing propoganda). Others quit in disgust at the insult. And the rest of us? We're out here, trying to stop the spin.
In reply to:
C>It's a new product with a different audience that BT enjoys.
It's a new product. It's a different audience. But I don't think that Battletech enjoys a single thing about it.
In reply to:
C>And remember that part about NOT being as much of a barrier to new players as CBT does?
You mean that line of BS that Wizkids put out to shut up the bad press they were getting from real Battletech? I think we've already seen what a lie that was. Sure, lower barrier, but it will NOT have the result of putting kids into the Battletech market. It'll put them in the MageTech pseudo-Battletech market. (IE, playing pseudo-Battletech with OVERPRICED CHEAP PLASTIC.)
In reply to:
C>Oh yes. And how are they to run click-base conversions for your mech?
They could have, at first, but they didn't want to. They wanted to sell more Overpriced Cheap Plastic.
My GOD, I have been saying this from the beginning. And I have been right, all along.
In reply to:
K> This is pointless WK is not targettng the BT crowd and it is showing.
C> Finally sinking in eh?
Yes, go ahead and gloat...the propoganda has disgusted and discouraged yet another previously loyal fan.
In reply to:
K> Another nail in the coffin for MWDA...
C>Simply because they don't aim the product at a shrinking market segment.
Because they did everything in their power (short of giving up profits) to snuff us out.
In reply to:
C> If you're expecting MW:DA to be a BT add-on, get ready for a MASSIVE disappointment.
Already been dissapointed. Nobody can see why, even though I point it out everywhere I go.
In reply to:
C> It ain't. And it won't be. Yes, some of the source material for the timeline will get translated over to CBT supplements. But the game itself isn't going to be interchangeable with CBT.
Ok what I just heard was "They're going to plagarize whatever they can use for this new pseudo-Battletech ruleset, but damned if they'll let you use your minis."
Which, of course, means that people who get started playing with Overpriced Cheap Plastic will have zero reason to buy anything from FanPro.
And you seriously argue that Mage Tech is not the death of real Battletech!
In reply to:
C> Now if you're done with your predictions of doom based on statements of the obvious, move along.
Sorry, FRIEND. I'm gonna stay right here, making sure people know what they're doing when they support this new farce. My predictions are no longer predictions...they're statements of the obvious.
Mage Tech is going to cause the death of real Battletech.
Interesting that now that it's getting so close to the release, Mage Tech advocates come right out and say (in so many words) that.
I feel like the protagonist in a movie who's been telling all the other dunderheads in the cast that the main baddie is real bad news, and all of them haven't believed me...until now.
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Karagin
07/11/02 02:48 PM
63.173.170.5
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NEWS FLASH:
Not everyone is going to play in offical tourenments, 60% of the BT games I have seen and taken part in at conventions are setup by the GM to be fun and non-offical. The other 40% are refights of the battles from a scenario pack.
For example I have been running a series of high tech mechs with crappy pilots against low tech mechs with veteran pilots to see which is going to win. The results have been varied and the battles a lot of fun.
Now is that offical? No. Doesn't have to be.
This year (in Novemeber) I am running a BT game that will have a lot of home tech weapons in it...offical no, but I can do it. Heck one of the mechs in it will be one of my CAV conversions.
Offical Tournements and games sponsered by the company should be run and set up by them or their support organizations. Thus no one can claim they didn't get a fair shake.
So saying that to allow both games to interact as I am suggesting be done here instead of just allowing MWDA to be able to transfer over to BT, is not going to make it offical is again telling the fans of BT that while it's nice to have us around, (can you buy this book cause I, Stackpole wrote it) it's clear that we are now the stepchild and a redheaded one at that.
How are you going to scale the mechs down? They are bigger then BT mechs...if you are using proxies great...but even then it's only for a few mechs, and you still try to stick to similar items, for example, once I used a salt and pepper shakers to be my two mechs one was T-bolt and the othe a S-hawk...the other guy had four light mechs and he was using thread spools. Scale fit the mechs...hence nothing else changed.
Hell even the scale of the mechs don't change when using the miniature rules. The weapons are converted to inch scale which common in a lot of wargames.
Sorry, again if they are going to allow the MWDA mechs into normal BT, then they need to have rules and converstions set up to allow the BT mechs into MWDA...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 03:04 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
K>You say it's a different, yet you have said there will rules to bring the MWDA units in to Battletech...ok two different games...sure right if you say so.
C>Okay. Stop with the stupid act(?) Karagin.
You first.
In reply to:
C> Using MW:DA figures in CBT is similar to using proxies. Except that there can be (but don't neccessarily have to be) modifications based on the scale of the MW:DA minis. Just like you could use CAV minis, etc in CBT.
Why would we do this?
In reply to:
K>IF the current miniatures, ie the metal ones, could be used in MWDA it would kill the biggest arguement against MWDA that folks have, the need to buy all new mechs.
C>Okay Karagin. How do you generate click-base stats for such a piece? Or are you just talking about proxying it for another piece that IS click-based that you already own?
It sounds to me like he's talking about a way to compromise. (But you're not interested in compromise, are you? That's ok, me neither.)
He said, that if there was a way to use the metal minis in the game, it would smooth relations between Wizkids and the previous fan base. They would not feel so put out because they had to buy all new minis (and drop ANOTHER ton of cash) to play the new game.
I think he procedes from the idea that the game doesn't have to be just for preschoolers who want to play with dolls (or (present company included) people who act like preschoolers and want to play with dolls).
To answer your question (how do you generate click-stats), ostensibly, the same way they generated click-stats for any of the other pieces. That should seem fairly obvious. The problem is that Wizkids does not WANT to do this, they're too busy churning out the next wave of Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures.
In reply to:
C> If you simply want stats for MW:DA assigned to your pre-existing CBT minis, you start out with a possibly VAST army compared to newbie players. One they'd have to make a HUGE investment in metal or MW:DA minis to duplicate.
Why should you be allowed this?
Because it'll keep your feelings from being hurt?
C'mon. A nice, rational explanation shouldn't be too tough to manage.
I don't see why you should demand something of him that you seem to be unwilling (or more likely, unable) to provide yourself.
Nevertheless, your implied problem could not exist.
Advocates of the new Mage Tech system say that there are no uber-pieces (a lie, I know) because of some point value system which "keeps the playing field level". IF Battletech minis were allowed on the field, with approved hex click-bases, they would be limited to the same point value system.
In that case, what difference would the force sizes, or how many minis I had, make?
And to further hammer my point home, you object to making new players collect a large collection...but if they play Mage Tech, they're going to end up with giant tupperware containers full of superflous units made of this Overpriced Cheap Plastic anyway.
What harm would come of letting us simply play with the minis we have, while they collect tubs of c rap?
You complain that letting us play with our existing collections would be unfair, because it would make new players buy large collections.
Well, they're going to have to anyway! Your way, WE have to buy ANOTHER large collection! The way we see it, it's not fair that WE have to buy an entire new collection. We have ALREADY PAID. Why not just let us play with the 'Mechs we have?
The answer is clear: BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY MONEY FOR WIZKIDS. And they WANT as MUCH money as they can get their hands on. And I think you feel that way for them...which further helps Karagin's implication that you have some vested personal intrest in MWDA? (That kind of hurts the idea that you can stand on the moral high ground, now doesn't it?)
Unless there's another reason...perhaps you can provide it? Something, nice, and rational...which I personally DON'T think you can manage.
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Karagin
07/11/02 03:09 PM
63.173.170.5
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Okay the outrage comes from this:
While we knew things would change over time in the universe, ie...Civil War ending, Katherine paying for her actions, Clans attacking or not...or splitting off to fight against the each other and forgoing the Clan way...all of this was unknown and speculated about, based on hints dropped in the sourcebooks and novels...
But now we know that in 3081 the beginings of the Dark Age start. We know that Katherine is not killed for her crimes, and we know that Vic wins and goes back to ComStar and he and Omi had a son.
We also know that the hinted WoB uprising happens, and it nearly wipes out the Inner Sphere.
Then there are the mechs...we are told that a several generations long peace happens and because one man scrappes his military he brings about an economic victory that forces all the others do so...and thus military grade mechs are so rare one is enough to cause a planet to surrender...man that makes the Death Star a pale second in the fear factor.
Then we see that another game's basic concepts, ie MageKnight is being applied to BT to get MWDA, some of the folks look at group playing MK and they see kids under the age of 14. Now while BT has ALWAYS been targeted to 10 year olds and up, this new game seems to go in the opposite direction.
Then the scale of the miniatures is different and they come prepackeaged to a box and you have no clue what you are getting. Meanwhile BT sold nicely with a listing of excatly what you would be getting on the back of the box, in fact you got enough to play at the smallest a lance on a lance in those box sets.
Then you have Stackpole's essays that tell the fans off in not so many words.
Adding all of this up you get a very upset fan base who are venting. Then you have those that support the game 100% arguing that those who are venting are out to kill WK and BT, just because they don't like the direction the game has gone.
What they forget is folks complained about the computer games, the cartoon, the Clans, the return of high tech, all the new mechs etc...and the game was still there and still played.
I have repeated this story before, the one about the young lad who got mad becuase when he put his lab top on the table and asked where he was suppsoe to hook to play MECHWARRIOR...and we told him this was Battletech miniatures game not the computer game, here let us show you how to play, he stormed off.
I also recall getting a good laugh during a game a con when a kid named Saul (age 12) asked how come the Clan mechs don't have built EI like they do on the cartoon. That was funniest thing I had heard said yet.
While it would be nice to see a large influx of folks into BT, the current marketing apporach and PR skills or lack of skills by WK is not helping do that, it's driving away the current fans base and polarizing what is left.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 03:12 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
Eh? Did you say something sonny?
I've got both sets. While the CityTech 'Mechs are good, they pale in comparison to the detail that the MWDA 'Mechs have. When the entire line is out people will get the full load of information. But I do understand there are those that have already killed off any idea of giving the new game a chance. That's only natural.
I have to agree with you. The plastic versions of Battletech minis (all of them) were horrid. However, for what they were supposed to be (mere counters, no different from Monopoly pieces) they were just fine.
They weren't designed to be pretty or posable. They didn't come with fashion accessories. They didn't need any glitz to be accepted...they were only pieces for the board. They merely had the advantage of being cheaper than metal, although you got what you paid for.
I think that everyone here can accept the ugly plastic 'Mechs for what they were. Right now, embroiled in this battle against the usurpers, the New Kids in Town, none of us can afford to disown even our sorriest relative.
They may have been plastic, but at least they were the correct scale, and they were accurate representations of Battlemechs. The Atlas in the Plastech set looked worlds better than this new joke of an atrocity that Wizkids offers up as the new Atlas.
In reply to:
Classic BattleTech is still here and we have something special coming very soon.....
Don't ask, because I am not going to tell....
OMG! Warner IS Death Coyote!
Or he's taking lessons in adolescent behavior from him...
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Karagin
07/11/02 03:21 PM
63.173.170.5
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Again nice summary. You gave my points a nice rewording and pointed out a lot of the things I was trying to get across.
Nice job. But I think you are correct, no one wants to listen to a compromise anymore...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 03:30 PM
63.173.170.5
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Yet it's okay to have rules and conversion tables to bring the MWDA mechs into BT scale combat...if this is so readily exceptted by the rank and file who are supporting MWDA why is it that you can't go the other way and allow the metal miniatures in to MWDA using a similar conversion that makes allowence for scale etc...?
Again the point system for MWDA would be in force, thus huge powerful army Chas fears wouldn't happen...
But it's clear that a compromise is not going to happen and the points against MWDA are really showing through as more info comes out...and I have already seen and heard reports from other who went to Origins and played MWDA, most them had the wait and see theory and none of will be taking part in the MWDA game for various reasons.
It's not a matter of supporting WK or not, it's a matter of what is fun and enteraining and offers you a challenge. And so fair Mage Tech aka MWDA doesn't offer a lot of folks that.
So here is an idea, how about you, Warner, talk to Jordon about a rule set that allows in the metal miniatures from BT to MWDA, if you care about the fan base and if he cares about the fan base, then how about giving this a lot of thought and actually giving it a shot...or are you going to dismiss this because I have been a vocale person about the game and made the dean's double secrete probahation malcontents list of BT players?
Here is a chance to unruffle some of the feathers...let me know what you think...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 04:14 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
KR>"Ok....so BT cannot be allowed in just because an eight year old screams, ITS NOT FAIR??? For 18 years I have seen players come to BT, everyone of them started with 1 or 2 minis and now some of them have built up their armies over time."
I don't believe this was the point he is making. The point, I believe, is this is a new game, it has new pieces to play this new game. The miniatures used in Classic BattleTech are not for the new game because they are out of scale and too expensive to make the new game affordable.
Ok, so let me recap, if I may. The original point was:
Why can't I use my Battletech figures in Mage Tech?
To which the response was:
Because it's not fair to make these kids buy a big collection like you already have.
Then KR said:
So we are giving in because a child screams, "It's not FAIR!"?
To which Warner replied:
That's not the point he was making, his point was that it's a new game which requires new pieces.
But I don't think that was his point at all, especially when you examine what he said:
"If you simply want stats for MW:DA assigned to your pre-existing CBT minis, you start out with a possibly VAST army compared to newbie players. One they'd have to make a HUGE investment in metal or MW:DA minis to duplicate."
It sounds to me like he's saying that it's unfair to make the kids buy a huge collection. Which makes KR's observation a valid one, and your interpretation questionable.
But as long as we're on the topic of scale, I'd like to point out that Battletech came first...therefore it is MAGE TECH which is in the WRONG SCALE. (Just had to make sure that was said.)
And as long as we're on the topic of who has to buy what in the intrest of FAIRNESS (which is an entirely moot point since our side isn't being considered, much less treated fairly), WE are being told that despite the fact we already have collections, we'll need to buy entirely new ones...as opposed to being allowed to play our existing collections.
So saying that it's not fair to make that kid buy a whole new collection...HE'S GOING TO ANYWAY, if he's going to play Mage Tech.
It's specious logic, at BEST.
In reply to:
(Paraphrasing Warner) ...it's cheaper to buy a Mage Tech collection, anyway...
So you are, in fact helping my case against Chas. You say it's cheaper to buy plastic than metal, FINE. Make that kid buy a new collection and LET OTHERS PLAY THE COLLECTIONS THEY HAVE.
"Nope, can't do that...Wizkids doesn't make money that way." That's what it's always been about, Jordan's MONEY.
In reply to:
This is what the new game is about. Being affordable,
It would be far more affordable if I didn't have to SPEND money on a NEW COLLECTION.
In reply to:
MWDA is a benefit for everyone who is willing to be open to something new.
It's a benifit to those who are making the money off it, by making people buy all new collections. Keep in mind that an open mind collects a LOT of garbage.
In reply to:
And if you don't want to play it or give it a shot, that's your choice. I will respect that. I cannot though understand how anyone can arbitrarily dismiss the new game without even giving it a really good try at it.
No, I think you can, you just don't want to sympathize with it...it would interfere with your other vested interest. You do things like paint them with a brush of discontent, label them as upstarts not worthy of listening to, then you compartmentalize them and dismiss them without a second thought. That makes it much easier for you. If you ignore them, they don't exist, right? If you label them as unworthy of response, then they don't have a point, right? If you can't hear them then you don't need to feel guilty by association, right, Warner?
In reply to:
Just the choice if you want to support WizKids or not. That's what it comes down to ultimately!
Yeah. And we know which camp you're in.
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Durango
07/11/02 04:34 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
D>"the scale and the minis are what makes it Geniune Battletech."
NK>No. That's MWDA's whole point: the minis make the game.
And I say that's bunk. Battletech can be played with 1 piece of paper, 1 pencil, and 1D6. What does it take to play MWDA? A box of plastic? Some fancy dials? But that's not the worst of it. The single--and I do mean single--factor that keeps me interested in Battletech (the game, not the universe) is the fact that you can make your own units. That's not just part of the BT experience, that is the BT experience. That's the key to the game.
That's what makes it fun.
...
But that's not the what makes for "Genuine ClickTech." What makes for Genuine ClickTech--and for Genuine Moolah--is minis. Unchangeable, clickable, collectable, profitable minis.
I thought about it again. And customization is a big part of Battletech. But through the years, the one thing which remained constant was the scale. Battletech is a Z-scale game, using Z-scale minis.
These people who use saltshakers, pennies, pieces of paper...I just don't think I'd have been nearly as interested in Battletech if it weren't for the minis. If forced to use paper, I'd have just stuck with Star Fleet Battles. Hex map, sheets of paper, and paper markers. But the minis, to me, make it Battletech.
And Battletech is in Z-SCALE. The minis are not DOLLS.
Mage Tech is in TOY-scale. The minis are DOLLS. Might as well just go buy a bunch of Matchbox cars to suppliment your collection.
In reply to:
Oh, and: "Heaven forfend" is a figure of speech, and a sarcastic one at that, roughly equivalent to "God forbid..."
Never heard of it. Must be a midwest thing.
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Karagin
07/11/02 04:37 PM
63.173.170.112
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Right, it's my fault that one kid can't tell a computer game from a minis game and HE got upset that we weren't play the computer.
Hell we offered to show him how to play but he won't stick around. So Zippy please tell me how I am treating him like crap? We the 7 off us playing the game were willing to teach him...sorry but if anyone is wrong in this case it's the guy for leaving mad.
As for young Saul, he WAS PLAYING THE GAME WHEN HE MADE HIS COMMENT.
Let me set something straight for you so you can drop this idea that I treat new players like crap thought line you have.
If someone comes over to the table and asks what game is being played I tell them, if they seem to know what is going on I ask if they have signed up for any of other BT games, if they haven't then I ask if they have a spare moment or so and would like to fight a battle. If they have never heard of the game I give them a quick run down on the game explaining what is going and who is one what side etc...PLUS everyone I play with does this. We DON'T ignore or ridicaule a new player. We are more then happy to get them into the game.
Hell, my best friend Jon Pehrson, editor of Future Wars, has given up his slot in a game so a new person could play and learn. But you seem to think we treat the computer gamers and cartoon folks like trash...funny I don't recall saying that we did...nice conculsion you drew there.
As for folk being wrong about the computer game/cartoon hurting BT...well we had munchkins before and they only grew with those avenues of marketing... 
In reply to:
Zippy wrote: That's a common misconception. Mechs were not scrapped. Privately owned mechs (the hereditary mechwarrior lines) were bought off. Standing armies still exist, and the ratio of mechs to vehicles is higher in the booster packs than it is in CBT (in CBT, the ratio is way more than 2 vehicles per mech).
Here, let me quote their site:
"As the Republic’s prosperity booms, the rest of the Great Houses follow suit until BattleMechs have become exceptionally rare except among the military or the propertied nobility." *bold added by me for emphasis
No misconception, the mass military industrial base was scraped, thus as I said...mechs are rare.
In reply to:
Zippy wrote: How is this a problem? They're reaching younger people who probably wouldn't have picked up Battletech on their own anyway. At least MW:DA has a chance to hook them on the setting which could concievably encourage them to pick up CBT later on (especially when they realize how much cheaper is is ).
Let's see, they get to play the game with their own out of scale mechs, converted over to a smaller scale setting with 90% level 3 items...right not a problem.
Now I hope I cleared up your misunderstanding as to how my group and I treat people. Hell given the way the current fan base is being treated by WK is it any wonder why folks are upset?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 04:40 PM
63.173.170.112
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And thus they alienate a large chunk of the current fan base by not listen to us...gotta love that.
Time to vote with the only thing WK seems to listen, what you buy and what you don't buy...
Gee one last thing a conversion set up need only be a few pages long, not an entire book here, but hey what are a few pages...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 04:48 PM
63.173.170.112
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You have once again missed the point. It's about keeping the fan base happy.
Jordan has all of us who play BT in his pocket he knows this, now knowing that, would it not make sense to sell the MWDA to us as well? What better way then for us to spread the word and spend extra money it then have a way for us to come into with ease...a simple conversion rule set for our current mechs and the use of the metal miniatures,or card board counter, and some generic click dials that we could use for the mechs, still keep true to the rarity of the mechs and the point system in use in MWDA...
What is so hard about seeing the promise and easy of this? It would kill a lot of the complaining in some areas and might even allow more of the folks who have said no to MWDA have second thought...
In results, Jordan makes money by keeping the current fan base and gain the new market and thus we can get them hooked on BT, thus he makes more money as they go out and get the BT stuff as well.
I don't see any waste here...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Durango
07/11/02 04:54 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
(Zippy sets Durango straight on the new Mage Tech Fantasy Story, suggests further research at Wizkiddies website)
Thanks for the update, and the advice. I probably won't take your advice, as I have no intrest in the story or the game beyond telling other people that it's going to be the death of real Battletech.
In reply to:
D>> No. If you're playing with Magetech figures, you are NOT playing Battletech. You are playing Mage Tech, with Battletech rules (and with these new rules, who's to say they'll even be Battletech rules? They'll probably be pseudo-Battletech). The scale and the minis are what makes it Geniune Battletech. Playing with oversized dollies is NOT playing Battletech. (Else, you may just as well use Barbie dolls as proxies. "I'm going to hit him with my PPC!" (Holds up hairdryer.))
Z>Feh, I've played with coins, legomen, and torn out bits of notebook paper. Does that make it any less Battletech? The record sheets are what makes the unit, not the mini (which is just a marker showing position and facing).
Even the official tournament rules don't force you to play with the correct mini for all of your units.
No? Do they make you play with Battletech minis, at least? My point was merely that I won't play with other than Battletech minis, and people who use Mage Tech minis in their games may as well save their money and use their Luck Skywalker Dolls instead. Esthetically the same durn thing. It looks just as moronic.
In reply to:
D>> "We're making it so you don't have to buy metal to play Battletech"
You have never had to "buy metal" to play battletech. You just need a mapsheet (or other appropriate terrain), some markers, record sheets, and access to the rules (boxed set rulebook, compendium, BMR, etc). Note that the boxed set (which included everything you need to play) did not include metal. It had cardboard cutouts (or plastic in one edition)
And again, my point was that designing pseudo-Battletech rules for Mage Tech figures will remove any incentive they might have to start playing real Battletech. Why buy all new pieces when you can play the same game with your existing pieces?
In reply to:
D>> Which, by the way, if they're going to make the game playable by real Battletech rules, most people will leave the rest of their c rap at home, and play with JUST THE MECHS...THAT'S what Battletech IS.
That's what your interpretation of Battletech is. I've been playing with combined arms for years, as have many others I know. Don't try to tell me that because my personal preference doesn't coincide with yours and the groups you play with that I am not playing Battletech.
And to reiterate my point, removing the incentive to buy FanPro materials is a bad thing.
In reply to:
D>> WHO AGREES WITH ME? I say, "If you're playing in the wrong scale with Mage Tech Posable Action Figures, you're not playing Battletech". Who agrees?
Not I. BMR already includes one set of alternate scale rules (mapsheet/hex versus terrain/inch). It's not that hard to adjust the distances involved. I've always operated under the opinion that it was the record sheets and rules that made battletech, not the minis (some of the more fervent battetechers I know don't even own any minis, just the piles and piles of supplements). Some people don't have the time, talent, money, or inclination to assemble metal, but that doesn't mean they have less love of the game.
Well, that's two people who say the game is in the rules and recordsheets, not the minis or the scale. Which reduces my fervor not in the least. I STILL say that if you're playing Mage Tech, you're not playing Battletech.
So just curious, will you be buying Mage Tech minis, making record sheets for them (L3) and then playing them with real Battletech rules?
In reply to:
D>> That's because I have been looking at it closely. And I don't like what I see. There is a trend, it is towards the extinction of real Battletech. Anyone who plays this Mage Tech is helping in the extinction.
Z>I remember hearing this same cry from RPGers worried that the CCG trend was going to kill RPGs. Didn't see that happen.
RPG's in general have been huge for a long time, not endangered like Battletech is. I would also like to say, that I see more Magic:The Addiction games scheduled in the local shops...when there used to be mostly D&D and Shadowrun games. But, we shall see. And when I turn out to be right, it will be a hollow "I told you so."
In reply to:
D>> Of the people I talk to, anyway...using Infantry, vehicles, aero is not common. They play Battletech with 'Mechs.
That's a valid force deployment. Not the only force deployment, or even the most effective in alot of cases. Don't assume that everyone else plays that way. People I've played with often use combined arms. To each their own.
My point was that it was the most common "valid force deployment" that I see. The Default Force Deployment.
In reply to:
D>> Nope. Because neither one will last that long. Want to bet?
It especially won't if people attack it before it's even released. Especially when the attackers don't even have all the information (especially true of attacks on the fiction).
Bah. I will help it die, true. But it won't even need my help. And fiction, bah, who cares? If it's a terrible game all the fiction in the world won't save it. Besides, if I don't have enough information, that can only help my cause, right? Especially to the uninitiated. "Oh, this game sucks, the universe is all screwed up, and the plastic is cheap..." Sounds like I have my opening line.
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Durango
07/11/02 05:09 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
K>> As Chas has said in his counter agruements to me, they (Jordan and company) won't do this since it gives the older player to much advantage over the new ones by giving us rare mechs in droves to take on the OPC mechs.
Z>It does, he's right you know. In MW:DA the minis make the game...
Ok, waitaminute. Either there ARE uber-pieces or there AREN'T uber pieces. If it's true that the point-value system keeps a level playing field, then what does it matter which pieces you have?
If I field 4 Shadowhawks, combined point value 200 points, then that guy can whip out an equal point value of Overpriced Plastic C rap Mechs...dig into his tupperware for enough infantry, vehicles and Toro-'Mechs, and the game is even again.
You make it sound like I can flood the table with minis, I win! But to play by the rules, you CAN'T.
So Chas is WRONG, you know, and it DOESN'T.
If Wizkids had wanted to, they could have made it so we could play our existing collections. They didn't want to, they don't want anything to do with us. Oh, sure, they'll sell us thier c rap so we can play Btech, but you think they'd find a way to let us play our existing collections in a Wizkids game? Not interested...no discussion, no options. Not interested. Buzz off.
Well, that's the way I feel about Mage Tech. No, wait. It's not enough that we're even. I want them to fail.
In reply to:
Besides, have you thought of how hard it might be for them to come up with MW:DA click stats for every possible CBT unit, much less play test them all for balance?
Did they even try? Has anyone over there discussed it? I'll bet they did. I'll bet it went something like, "NO. Not gonna happen. We don't make any MONEY if they play their existing collections."
They won't even try, they won't even sanction an effort by someone else to do it. Y'know why? No money in it. (Or not enough to trip that "Greed" switch, anyway.)
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Chas
07/11/02 05:12 PM
66.187.6.95
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If you think that the mechs look cheesy, that's something I can't argue. Arguing personal preference is an exercise in futility.
As to not being able to re-paint? Actually, if you're of a mind to, you CAN strip and repaint these minis. It's just a question of how far do you want to go.
Also, as the report states, they're looking into options for fan-paintable minis in the future. They're starting with MageKnight because it's a somewhat easier tool-up period for that line.
As to no imagination and creativity?
That's where tactical exercise from the game itself comes in.
Personally, I paint like crap. My hands shake way too much to do a decent (or even bad) job. So pre-painted minis like this are nice for someone who would either wind up in really UGLY paintjobs, flat solid jobs, or unpainteds.
"Corporate America wants...."
Sorry. I always have trouble keeping a straight face when someone starts telling us what "Corporate America" wants.
And if someone is willing to spend their money to buy $100 ultra-rare pieces, more power to them. I'll just points match them with "lesser" units. Then I'll have a nice laugh at their expense for confusing rare with "unbeatable". Which they aren't.
Yes. If you HAVE to have a SPECIFIC unit layout, it could be expensive for you. But for for entry-level play, the game is quite inexpensive.
And hey. If you're an old man, I'm every bit as old. I've always bought all my gaming material out of my own pocket. I didn't get an allowance. I worked from the time I could legally hold down a job.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 05:19 PM
66.187.6.95
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Ok....so BT cannot be allowed in just because an eight year old screams, ITS NOT FAIR???
No. The minis cannot be allowed n because it ISN'T fair.
It's a separate game. Can you import you BT minis into WH40K?
How could it be even remotely fair that WizKids allows figs from another game to be used in their game? Even if the two are based in the same fictional universe? Especially when the game mechanics of the older of the two games has no provisions for fitting into the new game.
Grow up kis, life ain't fair.
And I could say the same thing to those who want to import CBT minis into MW:DA.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 05:23 PM
63.173.170.112
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Let me parapharse:
Stone get's rid of his military and the results are an ecomonic boon that FORCES THE OTHER STATES TO DO THE SAME TO KEEP UP WITH HIM.
Now let again point out that makes combat mechs RARE.
Enough said since the above comes from their "factoid" releases on the background of MWDA and has made the rounds on all the message boards more then once.
On the new player issue yes we laughed at Saul, then someone point out that it was fluff for the cartoon, Saul laughed and is still playing BT. Seems that he can take a little good natured ribbing...I could have told you about all the stories I have heard from folks who I trust, about kids wanting to do things they saw on the cartoon like firing everything they over and over in the same turn etc...and they came in from the Cartoon...but I didn't, I went with the one I knew most folks would see a single comment that could be dealt with and the person stays in the game. Unlike the young lad who would not even take the time to learn a new game.
As for Saul feeling welcome or not, isn't the point, he signed up for the game, was enjoying himself and made some friends that day...you tell me if he felt welcome? And if you believe laughing at a comment is going to cause some to leave a game then you my friend and I mean this as advice only need not wear your feelings on your sleave.
The three times in all of my years of playing this game have I seen anyone get made enough to leave a game. Two were cheaters and one was the young lad I mentioned earlier.
Ribbing and other banter are all part of the game you learn to take it in stride and you can see that no one means anything personal behind it. Or is your group different?
Level 3 items are Level 3 items. Buzzsaws, claws etc...are all level 3 and I don't see that changing. So no I don't see any off those becoming standard any time soon.
News Flash:
BT is the stepchild...MWDA is the "Golden Child" which one is going to get 99.9% of the time and effort of WK creative team if it sells as predicted?
I think it's safe to say that MWDA will be the ONLY concern at WK and BT will be tossed once it's usfullness is gone.
And as I said, since Jordan wants a more money and a selling game it would make sense to have the older BT players there helping with that effort then pushing us to the side...but I can see that you are fully behind this new game.
I hope you enjoy it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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rock
07/11/02 05:26 PM
64.12.96.167
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Wow, beautifully said!!
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rock
07/11/02 05:41 PM
64.12.96.167
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Compromise??? Based on what I have seen/read from various different 'discussion sites' there is to be "NO Grumblings" at all.
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Chas
07/11/02 06:14 PM
66.187.6.95
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How much more do you know?
*Holds up NDA*
No comment.
I believe that the purpose behind making new rules is so people can play with the Mage Tech minis, exclusively. Just to further clarify, I believe that the reason behind this is so Jordan can distance his game from the real Battletech. The reason he wants to do this is because he wants HIS Overpriced Cheap Plastic to sell, and not the metal minis. He makes less from royalties than he does from direct sales.
No. It's simply if you WANT to play with MW:DA figs, you CAN. You're not going to be forced to use MW:DA figs to the exclusion of the metal minis.
As to overpriced. Look at the prices of your metal minis again. And look at what you get in a starter and a booster for MW:DA. Then tell me about "overpriced"
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Yes. I'm merely telling you you're wrong.
CBT is going to continue. WizKids and FanPro feel that there is still money to be made there. They also feel there is money to be made with MW:DA. They aren't trying to poison one in favor of the other. It's senseless.
If you play MW:DA and CBT, or just MW:DA, or just CBT they don't care. As long as you're playing at LEAST one of them instead of someone ELSE'S games.
No. If you're playing with Magetech figures, you are NOT playing Battletech. You are playing Mage Tech, with Battletech rules (and with these new rules, who's to say they'll even be Battletech rules?
BZZT. Wrong answer. If you're playing with some variation of CBT miniatures rules with MW:DA figs, you're playing CBT. NOT MW:DA.
The game is the rules set. Not the proxy pieces used. Granted, MW:DA figs have game information on the bases. But you cannot play MW:DA without the MW:DA rules. And the data on the bases is meaningless in a CBT game. It's merely a black plastic base.
Just like the CBT Macrotures evevent at Origins (put on by Armorcast) is still CBT. Simple scale means two things.
Jack and squat.
That's because I have been looking at it closely. And I don't like what I see.
Your arguments point to you having NOT looked closely. And if you don't like what you see. FINE. Nobody's forcing you to buy the figs or play MW:DA. Stick with CBT. It really is quite that simple.
There is a trend, it is towards the extinction of real Battletech.
Excuse me. I thought I saw a <Grassy Knoll> oir <Area51> tag in there. Any "trends" you see are purely constructs in your imagination. There is no big bad conspiracy to kill CBT and deprive you of your minis.
Detail? What, you mean because they make the grooves in the plastic deeper? There is detail in metal minis, and it can be brought out easily by anyone competent enough to hold a paintbrush.
Apparently you didn't read the report as you claimed. Most CBT minis have between 1 and 6 pieces. Some of the minis in MW:DA have up to 28 pieces.
So MW:DA figs simply have more detailed renderings of units than CBT was capable of. They're more complex.
If you can't acknowledge that, I can't help you.
Depends...is it a collectible (meaning, I have to buy tons of c rap before I get what I want) system? In that case, it'd be horribly expensive
At the size and level of detail present in the MW:DA minis, a mech would probably cost 2-3 times what a CBT figure does now. At least. That's assuming some of what can be done in plastic can even be replicated in spin-cast metal. E-mail Iron Wind and ask them how much duplicating the CBT minis would cost them.
As to the collectible market. You keep ignoring the fact that the secondary market is an entirely OPTIONAL enterprise. If you wish to participate in it. You can. If you don't, you don't HAVE TO. What about this is so difficult to understand?
The "starter" and "booster" set are full of superflous, redundant, and REPETITIVE non-necessary pieces, put there for the exclusive purpose of selling more Overpriced Cheap Plastic.
Yet the starters and the boosters are relatively inexpensive ways to start and build a decent army.
A set of mechs, vehicles, and infantry in CBT, equivallent to what you get in a $20 starter pack would cost you between $24-32.
A $9 booster pack is equivallent to a $18-24 in CBT minis.
Of the people I talk to, anyway...using Infantry, vehicles, aero is not common. They play Battletech with 'Mechs.
*Bangs*
*Head*
*Off*
*Wall*
No kidding. This, yet again, points to why MW:DA is a different game. It focuses more on combined arms. Infantry units and vehicles ARE more important in MW:DA. If you just want to mash-mech, stick with CBT.
The public has a right to be COUNTER-spun.
Yup. Even if the person doing the spinning doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Or is simply being malicious because it gets him off.
I don't have to have any experience
Thanks for at least admitting this.
everything I said can be gleaned from reading Mike's own words.
Just like some people misinterpret the US Constitution.
Ok, this is not the first time that someone has tried to involve facts.
I know. It's really hard to argue against factual data isn't it. Doesn't stop some people from trying though.
You're implying that WizKids is stating that if you don't have MW:DA figs, you won't be able to play CBT after a while. This is patently wrong. You simply will not be able to play MW:DA.
As for those people who want to switch scale...I'm sure there will be those people. I'm also wondering what would cause a person who has hundreds of dollars in real Battletech to switch to playing with dolls.
Simply because they want to collect all things BT-related.
Because they want to use the figs in lieu of traditional CBT minis (like you can in Armorcast macroture events).
Because they want figures that can be used in two games instead of just one.
Or for any combination of the reasons above, or for reasons I have not stated.
And proxies in a strictly Battletech match, that's nothing unusual...but using a Battletech mini in a Mage Tech game, or vice versa? Mismatched, wrong scale, looks silly. Not to mention, IT HAS NO CLICK BASE...but you already knew this, right?
Way to keep track of your arguments!
Of course you cannot play MW:DA with CBT figs. Yet the reverse is not true.
Get over it.
I know that. That's been my beef all along. Why didn't they make the game in the correct scale?
Hmm. Tough one. But I'll take a stab at it.
Maybe BECAUSE IT IS A DIFFERENT GAME?
Maybe because they wanted to up the scale to provide more details in the minis than was possible at the CBT scale.
Maybe because they wanted to keep from confusing new players as to which pieces could be used in the MW:DA game?
Nah! Those are too easy! Sounds too much like sensible thought!
don't want us playing Battletech, they want us playing Mage Tech.
If WizKids didn't want us playing CBT, CBT would not exist right now. Capisce?
So aggressive! Ok, to answer your first question, why should I have to?
Responding to a question with another question is no answer.
Basically your whole line of "reasoning" is based on "because I want it to be this way".
Talk to Mick Jagger. He'll tell you.
But the reason why they made it different was so people COULDN'T mix minis. First, a Battletech mini would wipe up the board with these cheapo knock-offs, and second, people playing with plastic and metal could not HELP but notice how superiour the quality of metal is to plastic, and how the metal figures look sooooo much better than plastic.
Uhm. You DO realize that the minis are little more than elaborate counters, don't you? Maybe not. Otherwise I wouldn't have gotten a "My mini could beat up your mini" argument.
Again, one of us is not getting it.
Whoa! No kidding?
In one way, though, I agree with you. Magetech is a poor replacment for real Battletech.
Oh well. Hope is, again, dashed.
Maybe if I restate it for the umpteenth time it'll sink in.
****MW:DA is NOT a replacement for CBT.****
Because neither one will last that long. Want to bet?
If you want to get in on the short end of a sucker bet like this, more power to you.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 06:24 PM
66.187.6.95
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No, what it would do is allow the older players to get into the new game with what they already have
Why should they?
If you want to talk about something how you stop with baiting and try looking at things from both sides.
Your first mistake is assuming I have not looked at this issue from all sides.
As I have said before, folks will find something that they don't like because each person as different tastes and likes.
And as I've said before. Nobody's twisting these people's arm to buy product or participate.
Now for stats for the metal minis in MWDA....should be to hard to come up with them since one could look at what a similar weighted unit has and go from there.
Ah. Another assumption.
Now you and the others feel that the older players have to many mechs and mechs that would clean the board of the "newer" Dark Age mechs, that may be the case, but would not the rules dealing with rare mechs prevent said stampdee?
How do you make rules, in a collectible game, to prevent someone from using what they already have?
But as I said, if Jordan wanted the older fans
That's just it. This is not about wanting the older fans. This is about making a game that stands on it's own merits.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 06:50 PM
63.173.170.123
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If you say you have looked at from both sides, then great, but based on your postings it's clear which side you have taken. No assumptions there.
As for MWDA having merit...where? It uses BT's background, it uses BT mechs and other units, it has the same weapons as does BT...in all shapes and colors it's BT with a new name. So there is no merit...the game is a mixing of Mage Knight combat system and Battletech background and termiology.
So don't try to push the "story" that MWDA has it's own merit...not when we have been told REPEATEDLY by those in the know that two games will merge via a shared story line.
Get rid of that part and you might a new game that has merit but not until.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 06:52 PM
66.187.6.95
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Scale is enough In fact, it's too much.
Problem is, if you're using miniatures rules, there's already scale conversions.
Again. It's not the minis that make CBT. It's the rules and the record sheets.
What you seem to be ignoring is that it is more than just Karagin who says so.
So just because 100 (or 1000) people hold the same opinion, that makes them right?
but there was a massive backlash at Wizkids when we all first heard of it
No? REALLY? It's not like I didn't report on it at GenCon 2001.
It's not like I haven't been arguing about this for over a year now.
We're out here, trying to stop the spin.
If you say so. It sounds more like disgruntled griping because the world doesn't work the way you think it ought to, to me.
And "quit in disgust at the insult"?
It's a GAME for chrissakes. You know. A hobby. A passtime. It's not like it was your kid or something.
But I don't think that Battletech enjoys a single thing about it.
You're free to THINK whatever you want. Just as I'm free to tell you when you're wrong.
Sure, lower barrier, but it will NOT have the result of putting kids into the Battletech market.
And you know this HOW?
They could have, at first, but they didn't want to.
What would have been the point? It would then have merely been an adjunct to the CBT game. Take a look at what happened to other adjuncts.
BattleTroops
AeroTech
CityTech
Solaris7
BattleSpace
All of them pretty much BOMBED.
WK already had a basic game mechanic in click-base that was selling VERY well. Why sit there and slap together something else?
My GOD, I have been saying this from the beginning. And I have been right, all along.
Don't mind the guffawing. That's just me laughing at your delusions of self-importance.
Yes, go ahead and gloat...the propoganda has disgusted and discouraged yet another previously loyal fan.
You're loyal?
Pfft.
Because they did everything in their power (short of giving up profits) to snuff us out.
Yeah. They're trying to snuff CBT. That's why they licensed it out for continued development and expansion.
Nobody can see why, even though I point it out everywhere I go
So you run around going "It isn't CBT! It isn't CBT!" and be thanked for it?
Well thank you Captain Obvious, but we already KNEW that.
Ok what I just heard was "They're going to plagarize whatever they can use for this new pseudo-Battletech ruleset, but damned if they'll let you use your minis."
What plagiaism? They own the IP for the universe and game systems.
Which, of course, means that people who get started playing with Overpriced Cheap Plastic will have zero reason to buy anything from FanPro.
If they only want to play MW:DA? You're right.
If they begin getting drawn into the universe more and want to play a game with more depth? Then they get pointed to CBT.
Sorry, FRIEND.
Well. First off, I'm NOT your friend. I don't know you. And, from your conduct here and elsewhere, I probably don't want to. So cut the smarmy BS.
I'm gonna stay right here, making sure people know what they're doing when they support this new farce.
If you behave yourself, you'll stay here. If you want to rant and rave and proclaim the end of the world, that's up to you. Have fun.
Interesting that now that it's getting so close to the release, Mage Tech advocates come right out and say (in so many words) that
Where have they said this? C'mon. A few simple links to this stuff shouldn't be beyond you.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 06:59 PM
63.173.170.123
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First, if he get's ride of the private market and cuts back on the military then everying I said is still true. COMBAT MECHS are RARE. End of Story. Seeing how we are BOTH saying the same damn thing.
Saul was ALREADY PLAYING BT, he was in the game on the same side as I was fighting to stop the Clans from taking an oil field. He made his comment, we all laughed at it and commented and NO ONE had their feelings hurt. The point was to show that ideas and gimmicks and such from the other Market areas of BT, can and do have an effect on the game. For example the MAD CAT Mk2...a computer mech we are no stuck with. Saul's comment on the EI from the cartoon all show that the stuff there can become something that is recalled and asked about or wanted in the game. Sometimes it's good to add in new things, other's it's not. 90% of the stuff from the cartoon was bunk, the 10% we are stuck with well worthless but hey it's still here.
The other point is while the market that might be interested in MWDA is going to compare it to what? Not Battletech, no they are going to compare it to the computer game.
So again I point out having a way to bring the current fans of BT into the MWDA fully and with their miniatures, would go a long way to showing the new market audience that there are two games they can play and look you can play both with pieces you already have from EITHER GAME.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:06 PM
66.187.6.95
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But you're not interested in compromise, are you? That's ok, me neither.
That's because I'm not the game manufacturer. I don't have to be interested in compromise.
You get to say "I want things the way I want."
I get to tell you "Tough Cookies."
He said, that if there was a way to use the metal minis in the game, it would smooth relations between Wizkids and the previous fan base.
But there isn't. Such a compromise would seriously unbalance the game in favor of CBT players with large armies of non-MW:DA minis.
Advocates of the new Mage Tech system say that there are no uber-pieces (a lie, I know) because of some point value system which "keeps the playing field level". IF Battletech minis were allowed on the field, with approved hex click-bases, they would be limited to the same point value system.
The problem is, there's disincentives to translate CBT minis over.
1: Lack of control over the minis.
2: The necessity to begin production of expensive source book material so people have to track not only MW:DA figs, but CBT figs (some of which are OOP) as well. And how many CBT figs are there?
3: Again, the fact that this gives an enormous advantage to players who already have large standing collections of CBT minis.
We have ALREADY PAID. Why not just let us play with the 'Mechs we have?
So, because you have invested lots of money, you should be able to use the figs in other games (like proxying them as an entire Eldar Army in WH40K)?
Why?
The answer is clear: BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY MONEY FOR WIZKIDS.
Since when was WizKids, or FanPro, or even FASA a charity? Why should they not have expectations of making money off their hard work?
Do YOU go to work every day and tell your boss "that's okay, you don't need to pay me today".
That giant faceless corporation you seem to think it is, is really a fairly small game development company with a few dozen employees and several contractors. All of whom expect to be paid for their work.
Yet you want them to simply freebie you for something they didn't make a cent off of?
If anyone's being greedy here, it's you.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 07:07 PM
66.187.6.95
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Why should you receive a stake in a game you have made no investment in?
Because you made an investment in another game?
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 07:11 PM
66.187.6.95
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You ever heard the term "It takes all kinds."?
It doesn't matter WHY they're involved in the game. Or how they came about being involved.
Merely that they ARE involved.
Save your elitism for someone who cares.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 07:12 PM
63.173.170.123
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Again considering BOTH games have the same storyline and same over combat units...yes.
And a lot of us have made an investment...since we have bought all of the products with name Battletech on them and still do.
Or is that not enough? You don't have to answer that, it's already been answered by WK and their marketing pitch.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:12 PM
66.187.6.95
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So they should listen to you and flush time, effort, and money down the toilet and come up with a way for you to play their game without actually having to invest in the game.
Riiiight.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 07:13 PM
66.187.6.95
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Which fan base?
The ones who recognize that MW:DA is a game in it's own right and choose to play or not play?
Or those who don't seem to understand that MW:DA in a separate game in it's own right and want something for nothing.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 07:15 PM
66.187.6.95
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I have no intrest in the story or the game beyond telling other people that it's going to be the death of real Battletech.
Thanks for getting that out in the open.
At least it's more truthful than referring to yourself as a "fan" of BattleTech.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
novakitty
07/11/02 07:16 PM
209.242.100.230
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On the topic of minis, I for one could not use them like some do. My typical match consists of a few friends making designs, according to whatever we agree upon, and me printing out a few FASA designs of similar tonnage and tech base. We play this way because my group has at least as much fun designing a mech as they do playing. We can represent anything with the little, grey, plastic mechs that came in the 3rd edition box or some loose change.
If you use pre-made mechs enough that a mini is an effective use of money, good. If you buy a mini because it looks cool, good. If you do not use minis, it does not truly detract from the game any.
meow
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:19 PM
63.173.170.123
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Okay that's it.
The only elitism is from you, Warner, Chunga and the rest who have belittled and attack anyone who has not fallen down in awe over MWDA.
IT is folks like you and them and your current fanaticism over how great MWDA is that is driving folks away.
Someone disagrees with you so you treat them like crap and ridicule them. Yet claim to see both side of the issue. Sorry all you and the others are Hypocrites.
If you actually wanted the issues to end then you and others would stop with insults and other crap. So far all you have done is attack me and belittle me bacause I feel MWDA is going to hurt BT more then help.
So go one with your commenting, in the end you and the others will do far more damage then those that are part of the so call Conspiracy To Bring Down Battletech And WK can ever do.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:20 PM
66.187.6.95
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In short.
You cannot use CBT minis or CBT rules to play MW:DA.
However, you CAN use CBT mini rules with MW:DA minis (and some scale translations) to play CBT with MW:DA figs.
Basically, Karagin and Durango are griping that they want to be able to use CBT figs to play MW:DA, and they want WizKids to work up stats for CBT figs. For free. Just because they have large investments in CBT figs.
Since WizKids isn't stupid enough to do this (which would destroy their business model), they're going up in a hail of flames and complaints.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 07:20 PM
63.173.170.123
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Both.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:23 PM
63.173.170.123
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Once more, the idea is to allow the fan base of both to grow...and seeing how MWDA uses a lot of the BT tech and terms would it not be better for the new players to see a full blown supporting from the older players? Yes I think it would and the best way to do that is to make a small allowence for the older players and their collections of miniatures...but I can see this is falling on deaf ears and you have made up your mind and are doing nothing but attacking folks now...
So have fun.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:27 PM
66.187.6.95
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If you say you have looked at from both sides, then great, but based on your postings it's clear which side you have taken. No assumptions there.
It shouldn't be any surprise where I come down at on this issue. If it is, you haven't actually read my posts.
But that's not the same thing as not understanding where you're coming from. I simply disagree with your arguments.
It uses BT's background
Correction. CBT and MW:DA share the same fictional universe. But CBT != BT Universe.
CBT and MW:DA are game systems. The universe is something separate. The games would both stand alone either way, simply with different fluff text.
So there is no merit
Fine. Don't buy it.
Just stop wanting to play it with CBT minis.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 07:28 PM
66.187.6.95
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So basically you're crying because they won't give you the means to bypass their business model for free?
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 07:29 PM
63.173.170.123
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I have no plans on buy ANYTHING that has the MWDA tag line on it.
And if I want to support an effort to get the BT miniatures allowed into I will and if I want to talk about that I will.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:32 PM
63.173.170.123
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I really like how you can break the rules around here...but that is another issues...
No I am not crying at all. It just proves the points against the game more and more when someone who is well know to have contact with and is in full support of Jordan basically tells the fans to make a choice cause you can only play one game with one set of miniature, but the older and better game can be played with both and nothing anyone suggests is going to change it.
The only crying I will be doing is when I am laugh so hard I can't help cry at how lousy this wanna be Warhammer/Mage Knight game does in the stores.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:37 PM
66.187.6.95
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The only elitism is from you
Really?
Yet you hack on munchkins.
You hack on people who came into CBT through the MW computer games.
You hack on people who came into CBT through the cartoon.
If that doesn't smack of elitism, I don't know what does.
And if my disagreeing with you, and correction of your misconceptions, as well as calling you out for your blatant greed is elitism, SO BE IT.
IT is folks like you and them and your current fanaticism over how great MWDA is that is driving folks away.
Again. Another uninformed ASSUMPTION.
Where did I say I thought MW:DA was great? PLEASE do me a favor and KNOW what you're talking about. Stop making accusations and assumptions based on your own personal perceptions in lieu of fact.
Someone disagrees with you so you treat them like crap and ridicule them.
I have ZERO problems with people who disagree with me. Everyone's entitled to their own WRONG opinions.
Note: For the humor impaired, the last sentence was intended to be a joke. Laugh. It's funny.
Seriously. If you disagree with me, cool. Just stop making unfounded accusations, and jumping to conclusions based on emotional whims rather than fact.
If you actually wanted the issues to end then you and others would stop with insults and other crap.
The problem is, no matter what I, or anyone else (including the people at WizKids) say, the issues wouldn't end.
You and Durango, and others would simply continue with "It sucks because I can't play it for free", ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 07:38 PM
66.187.6.95
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So nice of you to have the presumption to speak for everyone.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 07:39 PM
66.187.6.95
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The problem is, if MW:DA is little more than an adjunct of CBT, it will NOT grow. Nor will CBT.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Warner_Doles
07/11/02 07:39 PM
206.27.48.9
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how about you, Warner, talk to Jordon about a rule set that allows in the metal miniatures from BT to MWDA,
No. Because I like how they have it now. You don't? Fine don't play the game. Why don't you ask him yourself.
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Chas
07/11/02 07:40 PM
66.187.6.95
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I have no plans on buy ANYTHING that has the MWDA tag line on it.
Great. That's your choice. And I support it.
And if I want to support an effort to get the BT miniatures allowed into I will and if I want to talk about that I will.
Great! That's your choice and I support it. Just don't be surprised when I exercise my own choice. And don't be shocked when I call you on your greed and elitism.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 07:43 PM
66.187.6.95
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I really like how you can break the rules around here
That's just it. I haven't broken the rules.
Where have I been profane?
Where have I attacked you?
I've been quite civil (see attacks).
And since this is the general board....
Again. Assumptions. Thanks for playing.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 07:44 PM
63.173.170.123
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How about you stop making acussation and other comments and character assinations on the folks who happen not to like the game for what ever reason.
If you and your buddies would do that then it would take a lot steam out arguements, but no you would rather baiting and gloat and attack the reason and discuss.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:47 PM
63.173.170.123
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Every one of your post to Durango and me have been flammatory and demeaning. Thus breaking rule number two.
And you have broken rule number 3 at the same as you were breaking number 2.
And seeing how YOU keep claiming MWDA is NOT Battletech rehashed, then should not this be in the OFF TOPIC board since it's NOT about BT?
So you have broken rule number 4.
Care to go on?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
07/11/02 07:54 PM
206.27.48.9
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Karagin..
You crossed the line. But I forgot it is ok for you and your friends to freely attack my character with impunity here on this message board.
Well I guess you have just shown your true colors. You are a Liar.
Have you looked into the mirror?
Have a nice day.
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Warner_Doles
07/11/02 07:56 PM
206.27.48.9
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Excuse me? WTF did you just do two posts up? Camille has a saying for this, Pot, Kettle, Black.
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:57 PM
63.173.170.123
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The point is the mechs are rarer then the ICE Mechs...and we are to believe that given how things are currently in the universe, but these same points have been made and counter and recounter etc...and the out come is the same you have your view of the matter and others have theirs let's leave it at.
As for the tie in factor...I am not attacking anyone, okay other then munchkins cause they are just so fun to pick on when the uber toy fails... , what I am saying is the cross marketing doesn't always work. Hence the first story about computer player. The second story was to show that a simple question based off of a supposely acurate show, had NO bareing in the game and it that requards the idea failed as well.
So my stance is in the middle, while it's great to see the folks showing an interests in the board game/miniatures game, it's another matter to convince them to play it.
Here let me try this story on you...my late father loved to read the Shadowrun novels. He was entralled with that storyline, so for his brithday back in 1999, I go out and get one of the source books thinking he liked the novels he should like this. Turns out he hated the whole RPG end of Shadowrun. So while he would buy the novels he would not waste a dime on game material. Again another cross market failure.
True test of cross marketing something is how many of the new players are around still play BOTH versions of the game, in this case the computer game and BT in six months.
Now do you see my point or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 07:59 PM
63.173.170.123
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And you and the other's haven't crossed the same line?
Come on...the only line here is how personally anyone is taking all of this and it's clear that no one is willing to listen to any one about either side of this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:02 PM
63.173.170.123
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Then don't be surprised when I call you on your hipocritism.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:03 PM
63.173.170.123
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Not me...that would be your ball park.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:04 PM
63.173.170.123
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Okay first chance I get...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:05 PM
63.173.170.123
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THANK YOU!
Finially the truth comes out!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
07/11/02 08:06 PM
206.27.48.9
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No Karagin I have not attacked anyone on a personal level called them names or acted in the manner as you just did here. I have made my position perfectly clear. So what I get from you is that you have been feeding me nothing but lies. 'Crap on me once, shame on me. Crap on me twice shame on you.' I believe you've show me all I need to know. Thank you for being a Fuddy Bucker.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:18 PM
63.173.170.123
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Excuse me? You got mad when a few of the fans said you were being parinoided over things, and then you went nuts over comments made by Cadet and myself over how upset the fans were about things.
And you lashed out. Warner, no one is out to get you or the company. I fail to see why you and the others are so upset and uptight over folks venting about how they don't the new game for what ever reason.
As you and others have said it's only a game...so why all the bitterness over things said on the internet?
What I don't understand is how it's okay for a posting anywhere be it here or any board that prasise the new game to glazed over and revered, but one that is posted raising someone's concerns and such about the new game and why they feel A or B is bad and why C is better is met with the kind crap we have seen here?
IF all are allowed to speak on it then the good and the bad will be there, thus all of that makes for a better end product.
But I feel all of that is forgotten when you read a line of text and can't see person. What could verbally come over as funny sounds like a slam on the net and what is a slam on the net could be funnier then hell in real life.
But hey read things how you want...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:22 PM
63.173.170.123
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How did you get what you did from this:
In reply to:
Chas wrote: The problem is, if MW:DA is little more than an adjunct of CBT, it will NOT grow. Nor will CBT.
To me, he is saying that if MWDA don't sell, then kiss BT good buy. Thus for us to have BT around then MWDA has to sell and make a profit other wise some thing is cut...that's what I am getting from that...
You lost me with your comparision...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 08:23 PM
66.187.6.95
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What character assasination?
I've stated my beliefs about you. Nothing more.
There IS a difference you know.
Please don't expect me to blow sunshine up your nether regions simply to make you happy.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 08:25 PM
63.173.170.123
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You are getting funnier and funnier...if I have to explain to you what you are doing then well I am sure you can figure it out... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:27 PM
63.173.170.123
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No Boy Wonder not for free, as part of the OFFICAL rules thus if we want to find out HOW to convert the current miniatures into MWDA we have to buy the starter set...
Talk about assumptions being made...geesh...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 08:30 PM
66.187.6.95
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Every one of your post to Durango and me have been flammatory and demeaning. Thus breaking rule number two.
Correction, you are of the OPINION that it's demeaning and inflammatory. However, wrongdoing lies in the INTENT. It's not my intent to flame you guys. I'm being BLUNT, not inflammatory. Thus, no violation of rule 2.
I'm not going to mix words with you, because that just gives rise to still more paranoid conclusions and accusations of patronization..
I have no control over what YOU believe is inflammatory.
And General is for all BattleTech-RELATED topics. Not JUST BattleTech itself.
And, since there are aspects of discussion of CBT in this thread as well, it's also not a violation of rule 4.
Nice try.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 08:32 PM
66.187.6.95
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Then don't be surprised when I call you on your hipocritism.
The term is hypocrisy. And again, I have no control over what you believe. No matter how farfetched.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 08:32 PM
63.173.170.123
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Sorry I am not part of the parinoid group that you and the others feel are out to get and ruin the game...
But seeing how you are doing nothing but breaking the rules and such, I guess it's time to let you wallow in your glory and supposed postion of control.
Have fun and turn the light out when you are done.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:33 PM
63.173.170.123
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Do tell...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 08:34 PM
66.187.6.95
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Hmm.
Missed the clue again.
If MW:DA were an adjunct of CBT, neither would grow.
Luckly, MW:DA isn't an adjunct of CBT. Related, yes. Dependent on? No.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 08:34 PM
63.173.170.123
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And on that note time will tell...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:35 PM
63.173.170.123
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If you say so...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Chas
07/11/02 08:36 PM
66.187.6.95
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As was stated at the seminar. All the factions and technology we know and love are still there in MW:DA. It's just, at the initial release of MW:DA they're focusing on a smaller section of the universe to give newbies a taste, without flooding them with information.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/11/02 08:38 PM
66.187.6.95
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Simple english Karagin.
"If MW:DA is little more than an adjunct of CBT, it will not grow. Nor will CBT."
The thing is, MW:DA IS more than an adjunct of CBT. So it's gowth or lack of it will have far less bearing on CBT than you seem to think it will.
And if MW:DA tanks, CBT will still be around.
Please stop trying to pervert my words into something they're not.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 08:40 PM
63.173.170.123
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If you say so, then I guess you are saying so.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
07/11/02 08:41 PM
206.27.48.9
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Please close this thread as it has been successfully turned it into another free for all where a certain individual is using personal attacks and mud slinging as part of their opinion. Thank you.
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Chas
07/11/02 08:43 PM
66.187.6.95
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You still didn't respond to the point about them doing the work to convert another game to theirs for free. Especially when it would break their own game.
Ifyou want CBT to MW:DA conversions, DO IT YOURSELF. Nobody's stopping you.
Just don't expect official support from WK for it.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 08:46 PM
63.173.170.123
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Yes I did, if you would look again I responded to your responce to mackitty, in his question to you.
But I will post it again in parapharsed context to keep it simple.
Not for Free, the converison rules for use BT miniatures in MWDA should be in the Stater Box Set, thus to get the rules for those that want them, the Stater Set would have to be bought.
Does that answer your question?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 08:47 PM
66.187.6.95
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Sorry I am not part of the parinoid group that you and the others feel are out to get and ruin the game...
Yet your arguments smack of paranoia, and you share them with a group of other like-minded individuals.
As for ruining the game? You give yourself way too much credit. At best, your arguments and accusations are little more than a nuisance.
But seeing how you are doing nothing but breaking the rules and such
You can keep claiming that I am breaking the rules here. That doesn't make it so.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 08:48 PM
66.187.6.95
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Great response there.
Thanks for bowing down to my unassailable wisdom.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:49 PM
63.173.170.123
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I am sure all of us read, or at least I am taking a wild guess that they did...
But this subject is so heated and seems to be the dividing line among the fans, it could be almost considers an extention of he Civil War in the FC...now there is a nice way to tie it in...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 08:50 PM
66.187.6.95
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Again, thank you for bowing to my impeccable logic.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
07/11/02 08:52 PM
63.173.170.123
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And you keep claiming I am part of some vast group who are a nuisance when the same could be said about you and your inflated ego at times.
Let me asks you this, if this is only a game then why is everyone on both sides taking everything said about it as some kind of attack on them, what they believe or don't believe and why all the antomosite?
Last time I looked we were all here and we all played games for fun...seems that is forgotten as of late...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 08:52 PM
66.187.6.95
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The problem is that you STILL want a freebie.
You want to be able to NOT buy pieces for the game like everyone else should have to.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:53 PM
63.173.170.123
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Wisdom? It was blinding light of something else...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:56 PM
63.173.170.123
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You missed it completely...did I not say the starter pack would have to be bought? Thus I am buying the pices to play the other game as well if I so want the conversion rules.
No freebie here, and no overpowering of the new players since the rules of MWDA would apply to the converted units just as the would to normal units in that game.
I still don't see the problem here...but it's clear that there is a problem.
Hell I thought this would be a great idea...something that could in a small why turn the heat down some what about the ifs ands or buts of MWDA and BT...guess I was wrong on that one...oh well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 08:57 PM
66.187.6.95
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Let me asks you this, if this is only a game then why is everyone on both sides taking everything said about it as some kind of attack on them
I couldn't tell you. I know that I am not taking it as an attack on anything. I'm merely arguing faulty data.
Last time I looked we were all here and we all played games for fun...seems that is forgotten as of late...
Well, with people like Durango who is "Not interested in the game, but in imparting negative spin (marketing term for bad-mouthing a game for the sole purpose of creating conflict), is it any wonder?
I'm not saying you have to play the game.
I'm not saying you have to buy into the game.
I'm not even saying you have to LIKE the game.
All I'm saying is the easiest way to shut me up is to get the facts straight.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 08:57 PM
63.173.170.123
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And again it wasn't your logic or wit I am bowing to...more like the blinding light you are putting off...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 09:01 PM
66.187.6.95
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Now you know the power of the blue flame!
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 09:04 PM
66.187.6.95
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No, I didn't miss it.
The conversions cost time, money, and effort.
And, such a conversion destroys any innate value in the MW:DA business model. Because people can assemble their own proxy pieces with the conversions.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 09:05 PM
63.173.170.123
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At least you are being honest about how you feel...let it all out...
Let's go this route, please work with me here on this, say WK waited tell now to let out detailed info on their game MWDA, with Origins and GenCon being the main areas to really get the low down. No "leaks" from their website, no teasers, no back history about things none of that.
Do you think the arguement against the game, aka folks' opinions and such, would be as heated and as loud as they have been for the last year?
I can understand wanting to tease folks and sample the market to see what the reaction is about a product, and then adjust from there, so would it have been better for them to wait and do a big press relase at GenCon and fully debeaue the game there or was their current course of action the best way to, given the amount of firestorms each little bit cause when folks read it and then posted their take on it?
What do you think....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
07/11/02 09:08 PM
206.27.48.9
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It's a pity, because it actually was a nice, informative report.
Yes it was. But some people cannot stand the truth or allow the facts be known. That's ok. I just consider the source and then quickly dismissed them for what they truly are. Pity though, they decided to act in a manner that is socially unacceptable all because they believe their opinions above all else including the personal feelings of others.
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Karagin
07/11/02 09:08 PM
63.173.170.123
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Wrong blinding light but it works just as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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MadWolf
07/11/02 09:11 PM
134.53.151.107
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If i remember correctly, this forum isnt known to be very nice anyway. My second thought is that the place refered to as a "Fourm" is a place where people ce say whatever they feel of think, regardless who they hurt or what not, because the persons whos feelings where hurt has ample reply space. 
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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MadWolf
07/11/02 09:34 PM
134.53.151.107
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One thing all of you seem to forget..... YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BUY MW:DA ! Geezus! If you don't like WK stuff, then take the story Line the way you want to. If you wish in 3057 the Clans can unite and restart there thrust towards Tera and ComStar can once again try to stop them, while the Draconis Combine plan to backstab them both! You know why this can happen? Cause it's SCI-FI ( which means its not real ) and its a Game ! I don't plan on buying MW:DA because I don't any Mecha where Chainsaws and things like that are used as wepons ( this includes Gundam Wing and the there weapons as well ). The Hatchetman and the AxeMan were pushing the limits for me. Just try this, Wait till the game acctually comes out. Then once you buy the figures, If you even do, then come in the forum and start a war that last 400 some odd post. Relax guys. Don't get bent outta shape for somthing thats just hearsay rightnow. I plan on making my own storyline and droping the MW:DA out of it. Anyone wish to just doso themselves?
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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Chas
07/11/02 09:45 PM
66.187.6.95
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Let's go this route, please work with me here on this, say WK waited tell now to let out detailed info on their game MWDA, with Origins and GenCon being the main areas to really get the low down. No "leaks" from their website, no teasers, no back history about things none of that.
Do you think the arguement against the game, aka folks' opinions and such, would be as heated and as loud as they have been for the last year?
And if they HAD spilled the beans on absoloutely everything, what incentive would you have to buy into the new era's material? What incentive would you have to buy the novels?
NONE.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 09:47 PM
66.187.6.95
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Not quite.
Nobody really wants to read a forum full of elaborate "I know you are but what am I?" posts.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 09:50 PM
66.187.6.95
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That'll be $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.37 for the consultation fee.
If you can't come up with all of it at once, I'll take a 50% down payment, and give you a loan at 3,00,000% interest, compounded every other second.
Just make you you pay on time.
Otherwise I have to have my collection agents come talk with you.
*Points over shoulder to the full cluster of Elementals in full armor*
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
07/11/02 09:53 PM
63.173.170.141
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You missed the point...I am talking not spilling the beans until GenCon. Then only about MWDA...would the same thing have happen that we have on going right now? All the negaitive comments, the flames and the bitterness that has come about over the last year or so?
Please read things again and try to see that it's not about let it all out, it's about taking what we have to date as far as info goes and they (WK) posting and having the current info only avalible during the week of GenCon...
This isn't about incentive to buy...it's about marketing, I am asking if they had waited tell they had everything read to go, and then used the week prior to GenCon to start droping info about the backstory and events etc..and the weekend of GenCon to be the big date when all the facts come together in on package at the convention would that have cut down the firestorms that have been on going for the last year or so?
Or not.
This is not about buying any thing and knowing about the events, it's about waiting and the giving it out when the product is there to back up things...would that have made a difference or not.
So could please re-read my questions and answer them. Thank you.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/11/02 09:55 PM
63.173.170.141
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They don't? Then how come all the CNN boards as so slow?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
07/11/02 10:17 PM
66.187.6.95
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The problem with your argument is that the product IS there already.
The back-story for MW:DA was pretty much compiled as of last year at GenCon. Mike and Jordan even said as much at the GenCon seminar.
As to the game, they already knew what they were developing. So they gave a few general bits of info about the game.
It's called "creating interest".
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/11/02 10:18 PM
66.187.6.95
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OOOOOH! Good point!
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Greyslayer
07/11/02 11:22 PM
216.14.192.226
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'Pity though, they decided to act in a manner that is socially unacceptable all because they believe their opinions above all else including the personal feelings of others.'
Who exactly acted in this manner you talk about? What social rules did they break? And at what time could you class yourself or those being acted upon in this manner being above them in conduct?
Calling for the thread to be closed should be better tackled than by publically blaming someone and then asking for the thread to be closed. It should be done discreetly with the appointed moderator (in this case Slayer).by either email or personal message. The method you chose is something I would normally associate with someone who acts 'in a manner that is socially unacceptable all because they believe their opinions above all else including the personal feelings of others'.
Of course I would've posted this privately if you hadn't had private messages off.... far too much repetitive mud slinging around here  .
Greyslayer
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PeterSmith
07/11/02 11:37 PM
4.17.223.29
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"It allows the existing fan base of BT to play the new game WITHOUT having to buy all new pieces."
Why should we get free access to a new product just because it's set in the same universe?
"And this way the transition to the new timeline and such would be easier and smoother"
Aside from not having to buy the new minis, how would it help? Cite specific examples, please.
"plus it would stop a lot of the arguments that are on going over whether or not WK cares in any way about the current fan base of BT."
The simple fact that new material is being produced for Classic BattleTech should settle that issue.
"Would it not make sense to have a rule set that would allow for use of existing mech miniatures so as to allow those who only wish to use certain parts of the new timeline the ability to do so without having to buy all new miniatures"
It's called Classic BattleTech. The game system already exists. It's just a matter of either waiting for the material to be written, moving the storyline up, or taking the novels that are being written and adapting that for your own game.
Refresh my memory, but aren't you the one who likes to play the game your own way, in a setting that you like to? Anybody who plays like that should be more than capable of either figuring out the gaps, or just fill them in with whatever they wish.
"And finial it would go a long way to showing that WK is thre for the fans of BOTH games and not just favoring one game."
Umm...
They're focusing on one game. MW:DA. It's their new game. FanPro, on the other hand, is focusing on Classic BattleTech. Both groups are talking to each other, both are establishing the backstory for MW:DA (or, from Classic BattleTech's perspective, the future story).
"Now since I am sure you will have a counter arguement, please tell us why it SHOULDN'T be a rule set to use the current metal miniatures in MWDA"
Hey, I have no objection to anybody playing the game the way they want to. It's their time, and as long as they're not doing anything to hurt me, they can go nuts.
However, I don't see why WizKids should have to release the conversion in their base set.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Karagin
07/12/02 12:31 AM
63.173.170.111
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Okay good enough.
Yes I like playing the game as I want to. And yes I can come up with my own events to fill in the games...Let's Natasha got killed 2 years BEFORE Refusal War... yes it happen
The idea was a compromise, to try and find away to unruffel the ruffled feathers so to speak. Seems that it wasn't one that anyone wants to entertain at this time.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/12/02 12:35 AM
63.173.170.111
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Again you missed the point...I was asking to look at things AS IF THEY HAD NOT RELEASED ANYTHING last year at GenCon and nothing other then the Logger mech was up on the website.
Then come THIS YEAR, they let us know GenCon is the release date and the week of GenCon they flood the web boards with hints and such...
Then my other question was would this have curtailed the firestorms that have been on going since last year....
Why is so hard for you read the above and give an answer with out the retrorect?
Just answer the questions.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Acolyte
07/12/02 02:24 AM
142.179.27.248
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Nope, not Z-scale. Z-scale is the closest that model railway terain comes to BT. IIRC BT is 285:1.
My problem with the change of scale is that they made it bigger, making large battles even more cumbersome and crowded.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Bob_Richter
07/12/02 06:09 AM
4.35.174.250
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I don't CARE about the fictional justifications for it, Chas.
My Spider is ruined, gone, destroyed. It will NEVER grace the battlefields under MW: DA.
And there isn't even a good (out of universe) reason for it.
This saddens me, just as similar (if less radical) things saddened the fans of the Atlas and Mad Cat.
No good can come of these modifications.
I must tell you, Chas, my hope and trust that MW: DA would prove the doubters wrong is increasingly shaken as I find out more about the game and its Universe.
From what I've seen so far, the text will probaly read "The producers of the Spider finally realised and admitted that it was ugly. In an effort to increase sales, they resculpted its exterior, leading eventually to an all-new design of the same name."
I seriously hope I am wrong, Chas, but I am afraid I am not. Wizkids has given me no reason NOT to fear that the Universe will be torn asunder with asinine remarks and ridiculous happenings, that my beloved 'Mechs will not ALL vanish, or that MW: DA will actually be worth playing.
But I do continue to hope.
Even if it is a desperate hope.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Chas
07/12/02 09:17 AM
66.187.3.52
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If they had not said anything last year at GenCon, people would still be making wild assumptions about what they're doing with the BT IP.
And if they dropped it upon us full-grown, without any forewarning, people REALLY would not have been pleased. Mostly from lack of lead-in time.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/12/02 09:18 AM
66.187.3.52
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Actually, having played the game, MW:DA is actually LESS cumbersome. Because combat is very straightforward and streamlined.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/12/02 09:31 AM
66.187.3.52
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Okay. If you don't care about the fictional reason, accept the IRL ones.
They thought the Spider was ugly. They took this chance to re-do the profile of the mech. And in doing so, got to increase the amount of detail the mech displayed.
No good can come of these modifications.
Uhm. Okaaay. Why not?
I must tell you, Chas, my hope and trust that MW: DA would prove the doubters wrong is increasingly shaken as I find out more about the game and its Universe.
Well, I've quoted Mick Jagger before.
I seriously hope I am wrong, Chas, but I am afraid I am not. Wizkids has given me no reason NOT to fear that the Universe will be torn asunder with asinine remarks and ridiculous happenings
Actually, they've given you little to no reason to simply assume they would. Other than rampant paranoia due to the roughly 20+ month lag between the demise of FASA and the release of the first product by WK based in the BT universe. The same people who were working on CBT have been working with MW:DA to insure continuity and a sensible development of the universe. You trusted them when they were at FASA. Can't you at least give them the benefit of the doubt here as well? Maybe, just MAYBE, they might actually know what the heck they're doing.....
Are you going to like EVERYTHING they're going to do?
No.
Do a few superficial alterations mean the entire product is crap?
No.
Seriously, the amount of bad melodrama being extracted from the whole situation is, frankly, embarassing.
Maybe they should release the MW:DA product under the title "As the Mech Turns".
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Cheapbuzz
07/12/02 09:36 AM
165.76.24.136
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Well said, except these choades keep bringing up the (MWDA) subject in Battletech forums. Which then allways seems to turn into a bitchfest.
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Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 10:11 AM
216.24.109.80
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"It's a separate game. Can you import you BT minis into WH40K?"
Yes it is a seperate game, I ws just commenting on the point that was made concerning Old Btech minis not being allowd because that would give the older.classic players a larger force. Not to start a war with you, although you do seem to try and start one with anyone who has even the slightest difference of opinion with you.
Some people may like to try a crossover incoporating both elements of the game. However you always just preach the black and white of the matter, not the gray.
And yes, CBT players feel its not fair that MWDA minis can be used in CBT but not the other way around. Personally I could not give a whit. However anytime I have stated my personal opinion, from my feelings that the new mechs look cheesy compared to the old metals you have seen fit to jump in and try and preach your sermon of I am Chas I am right.
Guess what, I ain't listening. WArner got further with me by taking the logical explanation course than your self rightous preservation of MWDA.
Fight on Mechwarriors, be it CBT or MWDA, its a free country, say what you want and PLAY what you want and if someone tells you that you are wrong, listen to their opinion (as I did and admitted to Warner, see my post if you can stop ranting long enough), and keep faith in your own beliefs, adn if that person keeps trying to shove them down your throat, smack the snot outta them.
There's the gas, now light the match Chas, I know you will as you cannot seem to fathom that I or Karagin or any of the others have a mind of our own and a right to our own opinion.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Durango
07/12/02 01:25 PM
65.212.106.131
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Please see my post in Off-Topic, re: Chas' abusive ad-hominem attacks.
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MadWolf
07/12/02 02:25 PM
134.53.151.141
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I suspect that is would be Less cumbersome, theres no moutains of papers that need to be kept track of. 
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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MadWolf
07/12/02 02:30 PM
134.53.151.141
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Well Said....
But the spider wasn't ALL that ugly, my opinion.
If you want a Ugly Mech
1) Urbanmech
2 ) JaggerMech
3) Trebuchet
4) Wyvren
5) Quickdraw
Dem' are faces only mothers would love. I'm not saying there bad mechs, Just Fugly.
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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Durango
07/12/02 02:34 PM
65.212.106.131
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Zippy:
In reply to:
D>> "Nope, can't do that...Wizkids doesn't make money that way." That's what it's always been about, Jordan's MONEY.
Z>You are welcome to play with your own minis, with clicktech stats written and tracked on a piece of notebook paper.
Just don't expect Wizkids to help you come up with those stats for you.
You are complaining because they aren't paying their employees to waste valuable time coming up with ways for you to bypass their business model.
Yeah, but at least I'm not bitter about it. Oh, no, wait. I am.
Listen...I'm so much not complaining because they won't come up with stats for me, I'm complaining because they could have. This whole line of arguing is over the fact that Mage Tech minis are in the wrong scale to use real Battletech minis with them.
I took up Karagin's line of arguing, merely to point out to him that Wizkids does not give a care about the orginal fan base. That's patently apparent.
I'm aware that Mage Tech is a different game, played with different pieces, and a different game system. (Cheap knock-off pieces to be certain, but nevertheless totally different pieces.) I realize that they designed it this way, intentionally, to KEEP people from using thier original pieces, but also because they had a supply of cheap plastic they could use, a game system (Mage Knight) that they wanted to push, and a known name (Mechwarrior) they could sell.
Put them all together, knock off a known universe, and BAM...you've got Mage Tech. (Mage Knight done with knock-off big robots, and with a plagarized storyline.)
I was merely pointing that out to Karagin, who still seems to think he can make his point talking to people who specialize in sniping and ad-hominem attacks. It's worse than talking to a wall...it's like the wall is being a smartass back to you.
My position has always been that Mage Tech is bad for Battletech...that directly refutes the line of propoganda which Wizkids put out to pacify Battletech users: "Mage Tech will get younger kids involved in your hobby."
That's a line of bunk, it doesn't hold up under examination. I got banned for my position from CBT (by a Nazi-ish censoring administration).
In reply to:
D>>It's a benifit to those who are making the money off it, by making people buy all new collections.
Z>That's sort of the point of a business, isn't it? Making money?
I never said that it wasn't. What I said is that they deliberately alienated the original, loyal fanbase, by making the new game in such a way that we couldn't use our existing collections. Perfectly legal...but (in my viewpoint) deliberately detestable. They could have done it differently. They didn't.
And they didn't have to. But they could have, and they chose not to. That's where we diverge. I think they had an obligation, to the people who have been keeping this game going, lo, these dozens of years. I think that fan loyalty should be repaid. It's like an athlete, who you've been going to EVERY GAME he's been at in his career, cheering your heart out and supporting him, and then one day you ask him for an autograph, and he says, "Get lost, cracker. I don't sign autographs." His legal right not to do that. But how much of a sucker do you feel like for having been his fan all this time?
It's like your mom died in an auto crash, and then your dad sends you to live in a foster home. Then doesn't even invite you to visit. We are the red-headed stepchildren, gullible enough to have supported Battletech all this time, and what reward do we get? Shoved in a corner, while the new child gets all the support.
And here I am, explaining my viewpoint, just so some flamer smartass can make fun of it. Whatever, if you disagree, I disagree with you. If you want my more earthy viewpoint, mail me, and I'll tell you where you can stuff it.
Anyway, yes, it's a different game. Yes, we have been disowned. I'm over that. Now I'm out to show that new kid what happened, and make his life difficult...and by association, make Wizkid's job difficult.
"From hell's heart, I stab at thee. For hates sake I spit my last breath at thee." ...like that. I've already bought the stuff to make up the sandwich signs, so I can walk up and down the street protesting. And it's a small town with several newschannels, I'm sure someone will call it in. Small stories get re-broadcast to other affilliates. As soon as the story breaks, the Congressman and Representative I've been in contact with will be fighting for the attention (public servants always do), and I already have their ear. Things will get nasty, quick.
In reply to:
Z>But you are forgetting other people who would benefit from this. People who are willing to try something new, and just might find it to be fun. Or people who would never play CBT anyway, but might be willing to play a game that's similar to Mage Knight, because they already know that.
Maybe. But it doesn't benefit those people so much as it will benefit those who will be scalping those people for the next wave of uber-pieces ("Expansion Set").
It looks to me like you still hold out hope for people to switch over to Battletech. I think that hope is misguided. I can tell you why, if you really want to read it.
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Durango
07/12/02 02:50 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
D>> And to reiterate my point, removing the incentive to buy FanPro materials is a bad thing.
Z>It takes a certain kind of person to want to collect minis, assemble and paint them. Not all battletech players are (I'm about the only one in my play group who does). People who aren't into doing all of that just won't. That's a given. But, they might be persuaded to buy a BMR, some mapsheets and supplements. The people who do dig the whole mini thing will do so. Whether they started playing with posable dolls or not, when they get a sweet painted mini in their scope for the first time, they'll be hooked, because that's the kind of person they are. You just gotta be one of those people whose wired to like that sort of thing, and when you are, little things like spending a load of money on getting the metal figures (even if they already bought a bunch of plastic figures) will not stand in your way.
I do think you shouldn't discount the people who don't buy minis, but do buy the books, however. Some people just prefer the whole "destructive, stomping, giant robot" thing in their imagination instead of in their hands.
Thank you. You did help, a lot, by pointing out that there will be those who might prefer the Mini over the Overpriced Cheap Plastic figure.
It was also helpful to point out that it's not just minis, it's also the books.
I wish more people could post helpful and constructive posts like yours. (Hell, I wish I could.)
To respond, I don't think that there will be enough of these people to support FanPro, indefinitely. Further, I don't think that the in the time it takes to find these people we will be able to replace that huge crowd who simply quit after seeing the way Wizkids was taking Battletech.
In short, I don't think that's going to help Battletech.
Also, I'd like to point out that if they're making pseudo-Battletech rules for the OCP figures, then that diminishes the "new kids's" motivation to buy BMR, Mapsheets and other suppliments from FanPro...not just the minis, from IWM.
Those who use Mage Tech OCP figures to play Battletech will hasten it's demise, for two reasons:
...they will not be buying their minis from IWM, thus no financial support will weaken IWM
...they will not be buying their books from FanPro, thust no financial support will weaken FanPro.
If all these kids (or the majority) who are playing Mage Tech want to try Battletech, all they have to do is buy the Mage Tech pseudo-Battletech rules suppliments and they can ignore the rest. No money for Battletech...eventually, Battletech will fold like FASA did.
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Bob_Richter
07/12/02 03:16 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>They thought the Spider was ugly. They took this chance to re-do the profile of the mech. And in doing so, got to increase the amount of detail the mech displayed.<<<
Fine. I disagree. I think they were wrong and that the new Spider is nothing of the sort.
>>>Uhm. Okaaay. Why not?<<<
The so-called "improvements" only alienate fans of the existing designs! I've heard very few people chime in to say they prefer their Atlas with horns, and I certainly don't like the faux-Spider's genericized look.
>>>Actually, they've given you little to no reason to simply assume they would. <<<
And I haven't.
Doesn't stoip me being afraid, and wishing I was there to say: "ACK! NO! That's a STUPID idea! Don't even THINK like that!"
>>>Are you going to like EVERYTHING they're going to do?<<<
I don't expect to. One doesn't spend 10 years in a FASA-run Universe and come out with that kind of naive expectation intact.
>>>Do a few superficial alterations mean the entire product is crap?<<<
No, the changes to the Spider don't make the GAME crap.
They *DO* make the SPIDER crap, though.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
07/12/02 03:18 PM
4.35.174.250
|
Hey, I LOVE the Trenchbucket. You take that back!
I'll back you on the rest, though.
But I never want to see them changed.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
07/12/02 03:21 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>To respond, I don't think that there will be enough of these people to support FanPro, indefinitely.<<<
Between folks like you (who buy up minis like candy) and folks like me (who couldn't care less about minis but appropriate sourcebooks like a morally conscious cleptomanic,) we kept FASA alive as long as we could. It was their poor business sense that took them under. We'll be feeding FanPro for years and decades to come, I suspect.
Remember: We, the Battletech Fans, are NOT going away!
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Durango
07/12/02 03:21 PM
65.212.106.131
|
In reply to:
D>> Ok, waitaminute. Either there ARE uber-pieces or there AREN'T uber pieces. If it's true that the point-value system keeps a level playing field, then what does it matter which pieces you have?
Z>The point I was trying to make is that some players just aren't going to agree on the calculation of the point value. Have you heard the fussing that some CBT players make about the BV system? The discussions on this board and others about it's flaws and loopholes? I imagine you'd have some of the same people finding loopsholes in the conversion to MW:DA. Except it'd be worse because while BV is an optional balancer, the point values in a game like MW:DA is the be all and end all. Here's a theoretical exchange:
"Dude, no way that Uber-mech X is worth just 75 pts, that's gotta be worth 100, at the least the way it's wading through all my Shadow Hawks."
"Ha! Fool, the calculated Z factor is pushed down by the crit allocation, which combined with the overheat index that I don't even fully utilize forces the low point value, while yours are overvalued by their extra heat sinks! Live with it, it's the way the rule is written!"
"I'm going online and complaining about how the MW:DA point calculation is broken!"
Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time, but that's what I was trying to say
An inherent problem with that kind of system is that someone can always find loopholes in it, or just disapprove of it on principle because the conversion doesn't favor their prized unit.
So then, by extension of your statement, the game is not balanced, and there will be people throwing away the previous wave of pieces in favor of the next wave?
Why buy the first wave, then?
In reply to:
D>> They won't even try, they won't even sanction an effort by someone else to do it.
Has anyone asked them to? Do you know for sure that they wouldn't approve of such a conversion system, even if just in an "unofficial" capacity?
They aren't going to waste valuable resources on something that won't make them money, but that doesn't mean they will expressly disapprove of it. FASA and Fanpro have been tolerant of house rules in Battletech. I'm willing to give Wizkids the benefit of the doubt on that point until the prove otherwise with some sort of drakonian move like attempting to put an injunction on the creator of such a conversion system. I'll eat my words if they do something monumentally foolish like that.
I'll bring the salt and mustard.
You're right, nobody has actually tried yet. However, I notice that they kept all details of development about the game under tight security. Well, obviously, they don't want details to get out for someone to copy their new system. But it sure had the effect of making it harder for us to import our minis into the game.
Anway, you are right, nobody has asked, and since we HAVE no details about the game, that could explain why nobody has even tried yet.
Of course if details HAD been released sooner, it would have been much easier for us to make such a system. But they didn't want us doing that...and IMHO, not just because they were worried about someone keifing their work. They wanted THEIR minis to sell, and they didn't want US playing with our OWN minis.
Feh. They have the right to make money, and truth be known, I don't want to play that game anyway...but in an academic sense, it would have been nice if we didn't have to argue about it. They COULD have done it differently.
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MadWolf
07/12/02 03:23 PM
134.53.151.62
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In reply To : If all these kids (or the majority) who are playing Mage Tech want to try Battletech, all they have to do is buy the Mage Tech pseudo-Battletech rules suppliments and they can ignore the rest. No money for Battletech...eventually, Battletech will fold like FASA did.
BattleTech, Will Live on in the hearts of all who play it. As long as someone has the core rule book, It dosent die.
Shure there may not be any new products. Oh well We'll still be playing. The IS isn't a universe that dies easy. If your suggesting that once WK stops battleTech it dies, you are wrong. The Players then will be in total control. I'll be Playing BattleTech Even if WK drops it and it no longer has a home company. I'll carve figures myself if i have to, and the story will continue.
I'm upset that you feel battletech will die because of this, I'm Upset that any player would stop playing a game just because There aren't New Minis or Novels each month.
To think that would happen....
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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MadWolf
07/12/02 03:24 PM
134.53.151.62
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Thank You BOB!!!!!!!!
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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MadWolf
07/12/02 03:27 PM
134.53.151.62
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The Bucket looks like a wanna-be-german-darthvader-man-mech. I play it, its not as cute as a zeus though. My opinion.
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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Durango
07/12/02 03:42 PM
65.212.106.131
|
In reply to:
K>how about you, Warner, talk to Jordon about a rule set that allows in the metal miniatures from BT to MWDA,
W>No. Because I like how they have it now. You don't? Fine don't play the game. Why don't you ask him yourself.
Good idea. Why don't you provide us with an e-mail addy?
What? No? Why not? Because that's the one little bit of power you can exercise here? The fact that you can withhold information as well as preventing it from occuring elsewhere?
Or have you already been told by your god what the "plan" is?
Perhaps you were there when the conversation happened, eh? I can just see the conversation:
RB: "We've got a lot of Battletech fans out there. We need to make sure we support them, too."
JW (ignoring RB, to himself):"How can I make the most of this name? It's MY name, it belongs to ME."
RB (not realizing he's being ignored):"Well, we could make click-base adapters, so that our loyal customers can convert their existing 'Mechs to the new system. After all, we're trying to bring in new blood, and what way other than by making it easier to play with the existing 'Mechs?"
JW (realizing what RB just proposed):"WHAT?!? You imbecile, we'll NEVER make money like that! Why, if we did it that way, we wouldn't make any money selling new 'Mechs! What kind of profit can we make selling an add-on!?"
RB (taken aback):"But, JW, I thought you were in this because you loved the game! Wasn't it you who suggested the click-base system would work better on kids, because they didn't want to learn rules or do math!"
JW (livid):"Idiot! That's not what I said, I said, 'Kids today can't read or do math', not that they wouldn't want to! And I "love the game" because it makes me money...you fool!"
RB: "Well, don't you want them to at least be able to play Battletech?"
JW: "No, I want them playing Mechwarrior! I want them to spend money, lots of money, so I can get rich! The hell with FanPro, you think I get enough money from old product royalties?"
MS (getting excited): "Yes, finally. We can start over, a whole new story line, with a new publisher, who pays me more per word. Finally, I can make some money...money, money, money!"
JW (fanatically, greedily): "YES! And we can come up with all new 'Mechs, so NONE of the old 'Mechs will belong in the new universe...they'll HAVE to buy my new 'Mechs!" (Cackles gleefully)
MS: "But not the Mad Cat, or some of the others...I still have some cover art lying around that I'd like to use, with the MadCat on it, and a few of the others...and I also have some really good passages, with a MadCat in combat that I'd like to use sometime...so we need to make sure that the storyline doesn't exclude the possiblity of them showing up..."
RB (interjecting): "But at least you can make them the correct scale..."
JW: "No, no, no! If I make them the correct scale, then what incentive do people have to buy my new 'Mechs? Don't you see, I can crank out a plastic 'Mech for pennies and sell them for dollars! Hell, I could sell 20 of them for a hundred dollars! And if I make it a collectible scheme...why, there's untold wealth here for me! MINE MINE, MINE, MINE, MINE!" (Under his breath, "My precious, my precious...mine, mine!")
RB (in a desperate last attempt to advocate for the loyal Battletech customers): "But what about the thousands of Battletech players? This is a whole new system, and they've already learned how to play Battletech!"
JW (glares at RB): "That was never MY game. I never wanted it to be like is is now."
RB (horrified, appalled): "This will make their whole collections obsolete! Thats thousands upon thousands of dollars worth, not to mention the time they put into ther terrain! You're going to alienate all of them!"
JW (waves hand dismissively, thinking about profits):"Bah. I don't need them now. I have a whole new generation of lazy, shiftless youth to prey upon. But remember, don't tell anyone I said that. If this new game tanks, I still want money rolling in from FanPro." (Turns to Warner) "Now, Warner, I want you to oversee the new dynasty website, and message board. Remember, I don't want ANYONE to be able to post a disparaging word about my new product."
WD (Bows head in supplication): "Yes, Lord."
JW: "And if you see it on other boards, try to make the anti-Wizkids person look bad. Recruit that bigmouthed smartass, what's his name?"
WD: "Chas, oh Lord."
JW: "Yeah, that's him. And another thing...if you can't make them look bad, and you can't disprove them, change the subject. Call them names, make them look stupid, act sanctimonous, claim we have the right, whatever...but DON'T let a bad word get out about Wizkids! Got it?"
WD: "Yes, lord."
I know why you won't ask him. He'd strike you dead with lighting bolts!
(The preceeding post was supposed to be FUNNY, so if you're humor impaired, now you know...LAUGH.)
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Durango
07/12/02 03:50 PM
65.212.106.131
|
In reply to:
You crossed the line. But I forgot it is ok for you and your friends to freely attack my character with impunity here on this message board.
Oooh, wassamater, Warner? Pouting because you can't exercise your little "Squeltch" button here?
I suppose you've already (deliberately?) forgotten who got rude first, haven't you? Or did you simply ignore it so you could be better at sticking up for your pejorative friend?
Why are you here, if all you're getting is flack? Why not just go, and let us bash Mage Tech? Is it because you have some "Greater Directive"? A "geas" which prevents you from leaving?
Must be frustrating to be so powerless, eh?
In reply to:
Well I guess you have just shown your true colors. You are a Liar.
Have you looked into the mirror?
Have you? Just curious, when you look into the mirror, can you see your other personalities, too?
In reply to:
Have a nice day.
Well, I'd like to return the offer, but...don't bother.
You wouldn't take my advice, anyway.
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Durango
07/12/02 03:59 PM
65.212.106.131
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In reply to:
Z>It's a pity, because it actually was a nice, informative report.
W>Yes it was. But some people cannot stand the truth or allow the facts be known.
OMG! Warner. Kettle. Pot. Black. Further deponent sayeth not. (Censorship, anyone?)
In reply to:
W>That's ok. I just consider the source and then quickly dismissed them for what they truly are. Pity though, they decided to act in a manner that is socially unacceptable all because they believe their opinions above all else including the personal feelings of others.
Yes, that durn Chas! Ad-hominem attacks, everywhere!
I like that, though...you "consider the source", meaning, "I see that they are anti-Wizkids" or "I know that they were anti-Wizkids in the past" and then you "dissmissed them for what they truly are", meaning "I know that their opinion differs from mine, and so they are not worthy of listening to"
Those with eyes that will not SEE!
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Durango
07/12/02 04:00 PM
65.212.106.131
|
In reply to:
One thing all of you seem to forget..... YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BUY MW:DA ! Geezus! If you don't like WK stuff, then take the story Line the way you want to. If you wish in 3057 the Clans can unite and restart there thrust towards Tera and ComStar can once again try to stop them, while the Draconis Combine plan to backstab them both! You know why this can happen? Cause it's SCI-FI ( which means its not real ) and its a Game ! I don't plan on buying MW:DA because I don't any Mecha where Chainsaws and things like that are used as wepons ( this includes Gundam Wing and the there weapons as well ). The Hatchetman and the AxeMan were pushing the limits for me. Just try this, Wait till the game acctually comes out. Then once you buy the figures, If you even do, then come in the forum and start a war that last 400 some odd post. Relax guys. Don't get bent outta shape for somthing thats just hearsay rightnow. I plan on making my own storyline and droping the MW:DA out of it. Anyone wish to just doso themselves?
Well said! Hear, hear! People don't have to use ANY Overpriced Cheap Plasitic!
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Durango
07/12/02 04:05 PM
65.212.106.131
|
In reply to:
A>Nope, not Z-scale. Z-scale is the closest that model railway terain comes to BT. IIRC BT is 285:1.
I knew that, and that is essentially what I meant, but I will stand corrected, anyway. Thanks for your input.
In reply to:
My problem with the change of scale is that they made it bigger, making large battles even more cumbersome and crowded.
*shrugs* To me it's moot. I don't see the game lasting that long, anyway.
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Acolyte
07/12/02 04:54 PM
142.179.27.248
|
I still play "Star Frontiers", "Villians and Vigilantes", "Bushido", and not to mention 1st ed D&D.
I have casting equipment for any mini's that are no longer produced (no I won't sell, that's illegal, but I can tell you how) and Word allows for any rulebook or sourcebook that fall appart. Like the 1st ed MechWarrior RPG, which I also still play.
The game will not die. If they stop making it, my feel is that it will go into the public domain, and it will become FanTech of some sort.
As to ClickTech - I vote with my wallet. That is what hurts a company and tells them I'm not happy with their product.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Acolyte
07/12/02 05:03 PM
142.179.27.248
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Not the point. I can have up to four mapsheets on my floor. That's all I have room for. That means that 2 companies on two companies get extremly crowded.
Then they make the scale bigger. The game seems to be simpler and therefore great for larger battles, but the amount of room required goes up.
What am I supposed to do, buy a bigger house?
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Warner_Doles
07/12/02 05:05 PM
206.27.48.9
|
Feel better? Good.
That was my right cheek.
Here is my left cheek. You can slap it too.
And then I will turn it again. David.
And again...
again..
again...
By the way David.. If you want to do it more, ask and I will repeat as above.
And do so as much as you need to make yourself feel so mighty and cool.
God bless and keep you David Staples.
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Warner_Doles
07/12/02 05:13 PM
206.27.48.9
|
CLICK HERE
If you will not do that.... then here you go:In reply to:
Contact Us
WizKids LLC
15821 NE 8th Street, Suite 100
Bellevue, WA 98008
(vox) 425-641-2801
(fax) 425-641-6071
Sales, ray@wizkidsgames.com
International Sales, mort@wizkidsgames.com
WizKids Games Online Store, store@wizkidsgames.com
Retailer Liason, rob@wizkidsgames.com
Volunteer Coordinator, davec@wizkidsgames.com
Warlord and Judge Coordinator, dustin@wizkidsgames.com
Event Manager, dorcas@wizkidsgames.com
Tournament Coordinator, jasoncarl@wizkidsgames.com
Customer Support, support@wizkidsgames.com
Public Relations, james@wizkidsgames.com
Rules and Gameplay Questions:
Mage Knight, mkrules@wizkidsgames.com
Mage Knight Dungeons, dungeonrules@wizkidsgames.com
HeroClix, judge@wizkidsgames.com
Web Page, maya@wizkidsgames.com
You were saying? Ah yes..
Turn my cheek again...
repeat as necessary...
enjoy it as best you can...
...brother in Christ...
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Warner_Doles
07/12/02 05:24 PM
206.27.48.9
|
I should never had made that request.
I withdraw it now.
*Turns already bruised cheek*
Thank you my brother in Christ...
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Durango
07/12/02 06:04 PM
65.212.106.131
|
In reply to:
D> How much more do you know?
C>*Holds up NDA*
C>No comment.
Ah, would that you would do that more often. How peaceful it would be! Blissful, even!
In reply to:
D>I believe that the purpose behind making new rules is so people can play with the Mage Tech minis, exclusively. Just to further clarify, I believe that the reason behind this is so Jordan can distance his game from the real Battletech. The reason he wants to do this is because he wants HIS Overpriced Cheap Plastic to sell, and not the metal minis. He makes less from royalties than he does from direct sales.
C>No. It's simply if you WANT to play with MW:DA figs, you CAN. You're not going to be forced to use MW:DA figs to the exclusion of the metal minis.
Of course not. Nobody's being forced to do anything! But I think you are avoiding (deliberately?) my point. Perhaps, if you don't mind, you can paraphrase it for me. If you can't then I guess I will have to start all over again, so that you can read it and maybe address it next time.
In reply to:
C> As to overpriced. Look at the prices of your metal minis again. And look at what you get in a starter and a booster for MW:DA. Then tell me about "overpriced"
What does it cost to make that mini? Pennies? What do they sell it for? Dollars? That's what I mean by overpriced. It's a rip-off. It's like the record companies...they pay the artist pennies on the dollar for a tune, write it once and crank it out by the thousands. A blank CD can cost...what...a buck? You pay FIFTEEN TIMES that when you buy the CD. Rip-off.
All perfectly legal of course...but it is still reprehensible.
I haven't purchased a CD in...oh, years! And if I download an MP3, then I don't feel a single pang of guilt...the record companies have made their money from it already, hundreds of times over.
At least the metal figures cost more to make and that's why you pay slightly more...but then you get what you pay for.
Besides, I LIKE paying more, because I know EXACTLY what mini I'm getting...not like this legalized-gambling-for-kiddies, grab-bag "collectible" scheme.
The "Overpriced" part comes in terms of Value. No "value" in cheap plastic.
In reply to:
D> Do you understand what I'm saying?
C>Yes. I'm merely telling you you're wrong.
You're telling me that YOU THINK I'm wrong. Besides, if you really read what I said and understood it, you'd not be disagreeing with me. (Just a little of your egotism right back atcha! )
In reply to:
C>CBT is going to continue. WizKids and FanPro feel that there is still money to be made there. They also feel there is money to be made with MW:DA. They aren't trying to poison one in favor of the other. It's senseless.
Really? Funny, that's not the way it seems, especially when you add up the things which have been happening.
...you can use Mage Tech Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in Battletech, but not vice versa?
...plans are in the works to make rules so that you won't need to buy any resources from FanPro to play Battletech with your Mage Tech figures.
These two things alone add up bad news for FanPro, and if WizKids gluts the market with Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures, then they become far cheaper than any superior quality metal figures you can buy...what's the motivation to switch to a different system? There will be none...which means that Battletech dies out.
Rebuttal?
In reply to:
C>No. If you're playing with Magetech figures, you are NOT playing Battletech. You are playing Mage Tech, with Battletech rules (and with these new rules, who's to say they'll even be Battletech rules?
C>BZZT. Wrong answer. If you're playing with some variation of CBT miniatures rules with MW:DA figs, you're playing CBT. NOT MW:DA.
The game is the rules set. Not the proxy pieces used. Granted, MW:DA figs have game information on the bases. But you cannot play MW:DA without the MW:DA rules. And the data on the bases is meaningless in a CBT game. It's merely a black plastic base.
There are others on this board who would seem to agree with you. But to me, if you're playing Battletech with dollies, then you're not really playing Battletech. Just my opinion, apparently, and there was no groundswell of support to rally behind me on that. So apparently, it's merely my opinion.
But I'll say now, for those of you who disagree with me, using Mage Tech figures instead of Battletech figures will only hurt FanPro. I would encourage anyone who wants to get into minis to buy REAL Battletech minis, instead of dollies. Remove support from Mage Tech and give it to FanPro! Vote against the atrocity with your WALLET.
In reply to:
D> That's because I have been looking at it closely. And I don't like what I see.
C>Your arguments point to you having NOT looked closely. And if you don't like what you see. FINE. Nobody's forcing you to buy the figs or play MW:DA. Stick with CBT. It really is quite that simple.
How can you dispute my arguments when you haven't even addressed my point?
In reply to:
D>There is a trend, it is towards the extinction of real Battletech.
C>Excuse me. I thought I saw a oir tag in there. Any "trends" you see are purely constructs in your imagination. There is no big bad conspiracy to kill CBT and deprive you of your minis.
Yes, yes, sarcasm and ad-hominem attacks. Perhaps you'd like to dispute my point now? Instead of acting like a smartass? Or perhaps you can't, which is why you resort to adolescent behavior?
I want to hear you admit that making pseudo-rules for Mage Tech figures is going to be bad for FanPro. Admit it.
In reply to:
D>Detail? What, you mean because they make the grooves in the plastic deeper? There is detail in metal minis, and it can be brought out easily by anyone competent enough to hold a paintbrush.
C>Apparently you didn't read the report as you claimed. Most CBT minis have between 1 and 6 pieces. Some of the minis in MW:DA have up to 28 pieces.
So MW:DA figs simply have more detailed renderings of units than CBT was capable of. They're more complex.
If you can't acknowledge that, I can't help you.
I acknowledge that the Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures are more doll-like and therefore require more separate pieces. But they are not more "detailed". Detail is in the lines of a mini, in the intricate carvings of a piece of metal, which show things like access hatches and weapon ports. Plastic merely adds more pieces and makes those lines deeper. Larger scale does not mean more detail. Adding more superfluous pieces does not make for more detail...it merely adds more pieces to break off and get lost. A liability, if you ask me.
In reply to:
D>Depends...is it a collectible (meaning, I have to buy tons of c rap before I get what I want) system? In that case, it'd be horribly expensive
C>At the size and level of detail present in the MW:DA minis, a mech would probably cost 2-3 times what a CBT figure does now. At least. That's assuming some of what can be done in plastic can even be replicated in spin-cast metal. E-mail Iron Wind and ask them how much duplicating the CBT minis would cost them.
Ok, granted that metal figures in the wrong scale would be more expensive. You can reproduce the ugly Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in metal, in the correct scale for about the same price as any other real Battletech mini.
But what I don't understand is why you would want to? They are ugly!
You asked me, how much would it cost to buy comparable units in metal. A 'Mech, two vehicles, and four infantry. Now, since I'm buying them, I'm going to select the units I want which I personally would pay an extra dollar for the priviledge, and I'm also getting them in metal which is again, worth more than cheap plastic. The 'Mech I want costs about $6. The armor I want costs about $5, and the four infantry of my choosing would cost about $6. So, your "Starter Pack" of Overpriced Cheap Plastic dolls would cost about $20, my units would cost about $17...but with my added value, is worth far more.
I get to PICK which units I want, and I save about $3 over your "Starter Kit" of Overpriced Cheapo Plastic. Not to mention, I'm not STUCK with a certain faction...I can re-paint those units as many times as I want. Try to re-paint your plastic that many times...broken pieces, worn out garbage.
In reply to:
C>As to the collectible market. You keep ignoring the fact that the secondary market is an entirely OPTIONAL enterprise. If you wish to participate in it. You can. If you don't, you don't HAVE TO. What about this is so difficult to understand?
Nothing. Kind of useless information, though, as I don't see myself ever using it. But thanks for repeating the marketing hype!
In reply to:
D>The "starter" and "booster" set are full of superflous, redundant, and REPETITIVE non-necessary pieces, put there for the exclusive purpose of selling more Overpriced Cheap Plastic.
C>Yet the starters and the boosters are relatively inexpensive ways to start and build a decent army.
A set of mechs, vehicles, and infantry in CBT, equivallent to what you get in a $20 starter pack would cost you between $24-32.
I think I already disproved this above.
In reply to:
C>A $9 booster pack is equivallent to a $18-24 in CBT minis.
But if I can pick and chose the units I want, why would I need to gamble away my money on booster packs? Being able to get the units you want makes a booster pack look pretty silly, now doesn't it?
It's academic...they are different systems. In my system, nobody has to gamble and get ripped off. Not so in yours. We may pay a little more for the garuntee of getting exactly what we want, and we can use it longer, and it is a far more versatile way of collecting minis, but hey, if you want to gamble that you might find your uber piece, have at it. I'll be laughing when your face reveals that you didn't get it, but hey, tough luck, eh?
GO BUY ANOTHER ONE. That's what Jordan would tell that little kid. Because he wants his money, and that's part of the scheme. And if that kid is stupid enough to do it, and if his parents are foolish enough to give him the money, then maybe Jordan is better off with that cash.
I personally would direct the kid to the IWM case.
In reply to:
C>The public has a right to be COUNTER-spun.
Yup. Even if the person doing the spinning doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Or is simply being malicious because it gets him off.
Being malicious to get off? But that's what you're about too, isn't it? You know you love to bait people. Admit it. We're two of a kind, on opposite sides of a coin.
Nevertheless, once again you are wrong. I DO have a clue what I'm talking about...you just can't seem to address it and dispute it! Why is that, Chas?
And yes, the public does deserve to see how it is that Wizkids is causing the extinction of Battletech.
In reply to:
D> I don't have to have any experience
C> Thanks for at least admitting this.
No problem. It helped me to prove my point. Glad you can be so civil about loosing this one.
In reply to:
D> everything I said can be gleaned from reading Mike's own words.
C> Just like some people misinterpret the US Constitution.
Yes, those darnn liberals! Just making life miserable for all us normal people! Anyway, thanks for admitting I was right about this one. I will spare you this time, as long as you continue to grovel.
In reply to:
D> Ok, this is not the first time that someone has tried to involve facts.
C>I know. It's really hard to argue against factual data isn't it. Doesn't stop some people from trying though.
Man, I know what you mean! Some people out there just can't seem to see them, and try to argue them anyway! By the way, have you had a good look at what I was saying yet?
In reply to:
C>You're implying that WizKids is stating that if you don't have MW:DA figs, you won't be able to play CBT after a while. This is patently wrong. You simply will not be able to play MW:DA.
Er...what? I'm not saying that WizKids is saying anything. I'm saying (and if you'd read what I was saying, I wouldn't need to repreat it YET AGAIN) that Wizkids efforts, indirectly (or maybe not so indirectly), will cause the extinction of Battletech.
Sounds like you need to pay more attention, junior!
In reply to:
D> As for those people who want to switch scale...I'm sure there will be those people. I'm also wondering what would cause a person who has hundreds of dollars in real Battletech to switch to playing with dolls.
C>Simply because they want to collect all things BT-related.
Because they want to use the figs in lieu of traditional CBT minis (like you can in Armorcast macroture events).
Because they want figures that can be used in two games instead of just one.
Or for any combination of the reasons above, or for reasons I have not stated.
Ok. But as long as I'm here, I just want to repeat the word: DOLLS, and say again, PLAYING WITH DOLLS. Thanks.
In reply to:
D> And proxies in a strictly Battletech match, that's nothing unusual...but using a Battletech mini in a Mage Tech game, or vice versa? Mismatched, wrong scale, looks silly. Not to mention, IT HAS NO CLICK BASE...but you already knew this, right?
C>Way to keep track of your arguments!
Thanks! Man, getting praise from you is just like being Elton John and getting a Grammy!
Why did we bring this up, anyway? Oh, yes, because I said,
"Ok, still not clear why I would need to buy all new PPAF pieces when I have perfectly suitable metal 'Mechs. Oh, now I remember...because unless you have the click-bases you can't play."
And then you said,
"And there's nothing stopping you from using metal minis or proxies in BT games and tournaments as you always have. So your charge of "if we don't have the plastic figs we can't play" is ludicrous. But you already know this right?"
And then I figuratively shoved your face in the mud by pointing out that in fact, there WAS something from stopping me from playing metal figures in a Wizkids game. Doesn't it suck to be proven wrong, Chas? You must really be getting tired of it by now! Maybe you're the one who needs a little practice keeping track of his arguements, eh?
Either that, or (and this is getting to be a routine theme) you simply didn't understand what I was saying.
So which is it?
In reply to:
C>Of course you cannot play MW:DA with CBT figs. Yet the reverse is not true.
Get over it.
Ah, here we go, this is where you attempt to recover from me figuratively shoving your head in the mud. Nice try. But I still have to point out that you may have lost sight of your own arguement. No points, Chas. You still look silly.
In reply to:
D>I know that. That's been my beef all along. Why didn't they make the game in the correct scale?
C>Hmm. Tough one. But I'll take a stab at it.
Maybe BECAUSE IT IS A DIFFERENT GAME?
Maybe because they wanted to up the scale to provide more details in the minis than was possible at the CBT scale.
Maybe because they wanted to keep from confusing new players as to which pieces could be used in the MW:DA game?
Nah! Those are too easy! Sounds too much like sensible thought!
Hmm...too right. Sensible thought, that's certainly not your MO.
First, let me say, that I'm over it, so all this is academic. But because you'd be terribly dissapointed if I didn't argue with you (whips out shotgun, shoots down Chas' clay pigeons)
...it's a different game because they designed it that way. They could have just as easily made it in the correct scale. (Blam...pieces of silly reason fall to the ground)
...there's just as much detail in metal as in plastic...more in some instances (Blam! more silly reason pieces fall)
...if they made them all with attached bases, how could you confuse them with the metal ones? (Blam!)
(Examines littered landscape.) Dude. Poor showing! (Shakes head...tsk, tsk, tsk.)
In reply to:
D> don't want us playing Battletech, they want us playing Mage Tech.
C>If WizKids didn't want us playing CBT, CBT would not exist right now. Capisce?
If FanPro wasn't producing royalties for Jordan, they'd be out of business...capise, pisano? I'm sure that with all the effort and marketing being pumped into Wizkids, they feel confident that FanPro won't be an issue eventually.
In reply to:
D> So aggressive! Ok, to answer your first question, why should I have to?
C>Responding to a question with another question is no answer.
Oh, I dunno. Seems like perfect conversation, to me. Care to answer, or are you going to duck this question like you did Karagan's question about your vested intrest in MWDA?
I think you just ducked it because you can't answer it.
In reply to:
D>Basically your whole line of "reasoning" is based on "because I want it to be this way".
As opposed to your line, which is "This is the way it is, so tough." Which I can deal with. I was only arguing for the fun of it.
Just to recap, you asked me:
"Why should you be allowed to import figs from another game into MW:DA? And, as much as you seem to hate MW:DA (with what little you've seen of it), why would you want to?"
To which I answered "Why should I have to?" which is merely another way of asking "Why didn't they make it in the right scale to begin with?" You see (and I'm going to spell this out for you, because you have a bad habit of not reading...or maybe you simply have a lower read-comprehension skill), if they had made the game in the right scale, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Nevertheless you asked, "Why should you be able to", and my response is, "Because it would be nice to show the previous fan base that they cared that they had spent scads of money on Battletech." In fact, they do NOT. And per your advice, I'm over it.
You also asked, "Why would you want to?" The answer is simple, I don't...not now, anyway. If they had made the new game right (seamlessly integrated, that is), then I would have, and this never would have been an issue. But as it stands (all screwed up) I don't.
Now that I have answered your question, perhaps you'd care to step out of that smartass personna and actually answer mine? (Not that I hold out much hope...you seem to be incapable of stepping out of your smartass personna...like Warner is incapable of controlling which of his personalities we see at any given time.)
In reply to:
D>But the reason why they made it different was so people COULDN'T mix minis. First, a Battletech mini would wipe up the board with these cheapo knock-offs, and second, people playing with plastic and metal could not HELP but notice how superiour the quality of metal is to plastic, and how the metal figures look sooooo much better than plastic.
C>Uhm. You DO realize that the minis are little more than elaborate counters, don't you? Maybe not. Otherwise I wouldn't have gotten a "My mini could beat up your mini" argument.
*sigh* As we already established, unless your mini has a click base, you can't play the new game. (Remember? Sheesh, TRY to keep up...you're having a real problem with that!) This was deliberately included in the design specifically to make people buy the new minis, if they wanted to play Mage Tech.
That's the REASON...get it yet? It's not about counters on a board, it's about which counters can be used on which boards...and more importantly, which ones CANNOT.
In reply to:
D>Again, one of us is not getting it.
C>Whoa! No kidding?
Yes, and let me be more clear...I'm referring to you. Wow, it is so difficult to argue with you, you have a hard time understanding so many things!
In reply to:
D> In one way, though, I agree with you. Magetech is a poor replacment for real Battletech.
C> Oh well. Hope is, again, dashed.
Maybe if I restate it for the umpteenth time it'll sink in.
****MW:DA is NOT a replacement for CBT.****
Not sure why you feel you need to repeat it...I got that already...or didn't you understand that?
In reply to:
D> Because neither one will last that long. Want to bet?
C>If you want to get in on the short end of a sucker bet like this, more power to you
Hmm...but I notice you're not putting any money down. Way to prove my point.
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Chas
07/12/02 07:08 PM
66.187.4.81
|
Not to start a war with you, although you do seem to try and start one with anyone who has even the slightest difference of opinion with you.
Hey. If what I say offends you, I apologize. But I am not going to lie to people or mince words, just to avoid hurt feeling.
And don't let an emotional reaction (taking offense) get in the way of understanding what has been said to you.
However you always just preach the black and white of the matter, not the gray.
Of course. Because otherwise those who aren't careful mistake those gray shades for black or white. It's an attempt to keep people grounded when their emotions and initial reactions would have them blast into orbit over an insignificant little nothing.
And yes, CBT players feel its not fair that MWDA minis can be used in CBT but not the other way around.
I understand this. And YES, I don't think it's quite fair either. However, I am also looking at the other side of the issue as well. And I find their reasons just as compelling. And just as self-serving as those of some of the "fans".
Hey. I never said I was "right".
Hold on.
I'm right darn it!
Okay. Now I've said it.
Seriously. I may be right. I may be wrong. However, it's MY opinion. And if I feel like making corrections to errors put forth by others, that's my right. So please don't try to damn me for utilizing the same freedoms you possess.
Guess what, I ain't listening.
Guess what. I don't care. Wether you choose to listen to me, or choose to ignore me is NOT my concern. My point of contention is that people get their facts straight. Otherwise, how can anyone be expected to take their position seriously?
WArner got further with me by taking the logical explanation course than your self rightous preservation of MWDA.
Again. Your perogative. You're merely absorbing the same data I'm putting out. Merely from a source that's more palatable to you. Cool by me.
And maybe it's a bit more tactfuly presented than I have done. But then again, I'm dealing with a couple people here for whom the tactful approach has failed.
So I choose to go with bald truth (and no remarks about what's left of my hair line!).
You have the freedom to NOT listen to me, and to discount absoloutely everything I've said. And I will not strip you of this right. It doesn't mean I'm simply going to shut up though.
Fight on Mechwarriors, be it CBT or MWDA, its a free country, say what you want and PLAY what you want and if someone tells you that you are wrong, listen to their opinion (as I did and admitted to Warner, see my post if you can stop ranting long enough), and keep faith in your own beliefs, adn if that person keeps trying to shove them down your throat, smack the snot outta them.
And this is merely a regurgitation of what I've said all along.
As to your contention that I think of you as mindless?
Bzzt! Wrong answer.
I KNOW you have a mind. I'm merely asking that you use it. And not toss out what I say out-of-hand. But it's a REQUEST. Not a DEMAND.
What you do, think, and how you conduct yourself is your business.
Thank you for your time.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/12/02 07:09 PM
66.187.4.81
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And your sig is incorrect. Or you've never encountered the REAL saying in the IT world.
"Impossible just costs a lot more....."
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Durango
07/12/02 07:35 PM
24.164.47.91
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In reply to:
D>>> So then, by extension of your statement, the game is not balanced, and there will be people throwing away the previous wave of pieces in favor of the next wave?
Z>No, you misinterpret.
Sorry, my bad.
In reply to:
Z>The actual Mageknight figures can possess a good deal of balance because they are internally playtested and all of their statistics were created with the underlying idea of point based balance in mind.
Converted CBT figures cannot have that luxury because it would be literally impossible to play test all of the near infinate designs that can be created with CBTs design system (which itself is unbalanced, but that's another thing). Trying to force all the myriad of player designed stats (weapons, armor, critical allocations) onto a dial containing little more than than attack, defense, and move numbers, and then allocating those numbers onto a varying scale for damage (which tends to be nearly unique per unit, representing ruggedness) is a nightmare for any attempts to enforce play balance.
To summarize:
Wizkids can produce balanced units because it can create them individually, and from the ground up as MW:DA units, and then play test them to get at least some degree of balance.
A conversion system would have a hellishious time creating balance because it has to account for the near infinite designs capable under CBT design rules and can be abused by players eager to get an extra edge.
This problem was bad enough with BV, where we had players creating units with actual combat effectiveness far in advance of their point values. Ask Bob about the Madcat with Cheese someday. Do you think that would be easy to avoid in this case as well? Do you really think there won't be players sitting down with the conversion system trying to find all the loopholes that would allow them to create a 50 pt unit that fights like an 80 or 100 pt unit?
Ah. But that's not what I was referring to. I was positing that the units in question (the converted Battletech units) had already been play tested. Again, my bad.
In any case...the situation you refer to "loophole jumping" I classify as "strategy". I call it "knowing how to get the most out of your 'Mech". This sort of "loophole exploitation" goes on in any game, as there is no perfect game.
And with that in mind, it would happen in Mage Tech anyway...so what's the harm in allowing us to play, too?
In any case, if you can absorb that this sort of "strategy" is going to happen no matter what, then we can also extend that into the concept that the first wave will become obsolete, anyway. So I still may have a point.
In reply to:
D>> Anway, you are right, nobody has asked, and since we HAVE no details about the game, that could explain why nobody has even tried yet
Z>I meant had anyone even tried to ask Wizkids. Not had anyone tried to make such a system, yet (I know it's far to early for that)
To my knowledge, no. So I concede this point to you.
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Durango
07/12/02 07:37 PM
24.164.47.91
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In reply to:
A>I still play "Star Frontiers", "Villians and Vigilantes", "Bushido", and not to mention 1st ed D&D.
FGU fella eh? Ever play Aftermath! ?
In reply to:
A>I have casting equipment for any mini's that are no longer produced (no I won't sell, that's illegal, but I can tell you how) and Word allows for any rulebook or sourcebook that fall appart. Like the 1st ed MechWarrior RPG, which I also still play.
The game will not die. If they stop making it, my feel is that it will go into the public domain, and it will become FanTech of some sort.
All very well, but some of us don't have the resources to draw upon that you do.
In reply to:
A>As to ClickTech - I vote with my wallet. That is what hurts a company and tells them I'm not happy with their product.
That's a good start! Some of us have bigger plans, tho.
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Chas
07/12/02 07:39 PM
66.187.4.81
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Listen...I'm so much not complaining because they won't come up with stats for me, I'm complaining because they could have.
But the million-C-Bill question is:
Why SHOULD they have?
Because you made a large investment in BattleTech (not MW:DA)?
Because it would have kept the good will of people who made large investments in BattleTech (not MW:DA)?
Seriously. Give me a good, non-self-serving answer as to why they could have.
It's not that WK doesn't care about the original fanbase. It's that they have already moved to help the original fanbase by continuing their game. While coming out with a new game that may or may not appeal to that fanbase due to a degree of separation between the rules sets and business model.
CBT is still firmly rooted in the classical publishing business model.
MW:DA isn't.
Trying to make MW:DA adopt a publishing business model would simply destroy the game's viability and reasons for existence.
My position has always been that Mage Tech is bad for Battletech...that directly refutes the line of propoganda which Wizkids put out to pacify Battletech users: "Mage Tech will get younger kids involved in your hobby."
A difference of opinion is not a refutation.
I got banned for my position from CBT
Correction, you got banned because you could not moderate your language or behavior on the board and comply with the standards of conduct there.
Your position on MW:DA was irrelevant to your banning.
by making the new game in such a way that we couldn't use our existing collections.
What is the point of making a new game if people have no reason to invest in it due to conversion rules from different games?
And what's detestable about it? That they wanted to make money off their hard work instead of allowing a bunch of people with large collections of material for another game to get in for free?
I think they had an obligation, to the people who have been keeping this game going, lo, these dozens of years. I think that fan loyalty should be repaid.
And it was. CBT continues. Despite FASA's demise. WizKids made sure that it would.
It's like someone saving you from downing, then you turn around and demand that they allow you to move into their house and set you up with an allowance and a car.
When FASA introduced Shadowrun, did you ask for CBT conversions there? Howabout VOR? Crimson Skies? Crucible?
It's like an athlete, who you've been going to EVERY GAME he's been at in his career, cheering your heart out and supporting him, and then one day you ask him for an autograph, and he says, "Get lost, cracker. I don't sign autographs." His legal right not to do that. But how much of a sucker do you feel like for having been his fan all this time?
You're talking about emotional investment. I understand it. However, you have to understand that just because you invest yourself into someone/something doesn't give you the right (legally, morally, or otherwise) to make demands of them or have any sort of hold over them. This is, essentially, what you're asking for.
"I spent lots of cash on your game (FASA's actually). So you owe me!"
WK owes you nothing. They merely hold the IP rights to BT now. They've already gone above and beyond by licensing CBT for further production.
And YES, I understand that their motives aren't as altruistic as I seem to be making them out to be. They're a business. Their first duty is to the bottom line. PERIOD.
It's like your mom died in an auto crash, and then your dad sends you to live in a foster home.
You're equating being left out of free transition from MW:DA to losing your mother and being abandoned by your father?
The most I'm going to say to this is "No Comment". It's a bit too close to home for me to address this civilly with you.
And here I am, explaining my viewpoint, just so some flamer smartass can make fun of it.
You think I'm making fun of you? Please. I merely disagree with your viewpoint. And I have no qualms about being as bluntly truthful as possible.
Yes, we have been disowned.
No we have not.
CBT and MW:DA are not our families. They are games. If you wish to participate in the games, you have to make an investment. You have made your investment in CBT, not MW:DA. Therefore, you have no reasonable claim to the ability to participate.
I've already bought the stuff to make up the sandwich signs, so I can walk up and down the street protesting.
Just make sure you tell them EVERYTHING.
1: The game you support was created by another company.
2: The game you want to play is based on the same source material, but is a different game mechanically.
3: The game you support is still supported and in development.
4 You feel an entitlement to play the latter because you had a sizeable investment in the former.
Or go one better.
Come to GenCon.
Protest at the MW:DA and CBT seminars.
Protest outside the convention center.
Leave pamphlets for the gamers.
It looks to me like you still hold out hope for people to switch over to Battletech. I think that hope is misguided.
Again, you're entitled to your opinion. Just as I'm entitled to mine. As Zippy is to his(?).
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Durango
07/12/02 07:51 PM
24.164.47.91
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In reply to:
W>Feel better? Good.
That was my right cheek.
Here is my left cheek. You can slap it too.
And then I will turn it again. David.
And again...
again..
again...
By the way David.. If you want to do it more, ask and I will repeat as above.
And do so as much as you need to make yourself feel so mighty and cool.
Hey, I like you a whole lot more than the guy I wrote that letter to. Can you stay surfaced for a bit longer? You can stay. The other Warner must go. (And if you can do that, tell the other personalities they gotta go, too.)
In reply to:
W>God bless and keep you David Staples.
Who? Oh, you're talking to me...except my name is Dave.
In reply to:
CLICK HERE
You were saying? Ah yes..
Interesting...is this the same e-mail addy your alter-identity uses?
In reply to:
W>Turn my cheek again...
repeat as necessary...
Man, that gets old fast.
In reply to:
W>I should never had made that request.
I withdraw it now.
*Turns already bruised cheek*
Thank you my brother in Christ...
I forgive you, Brother Warner.
Now, let me back on CBT.
KJV Luke 18:9-14
(9) And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
(10) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
(11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
(12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
(13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Prove it.
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Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 07:51 PM
216.24.108.137
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Fight on Mechwarriors, be it CBT or MWDA, its a free country, say what you want and PLAY what you want and if someone tells you that you are wrong, listen to their opinion (as I did and admitted to Warner, see my post if you can stop ranting long enough), and keep faith in your own beliefs, adn if that person keeps trying to shove them down your throat, smack the snot outta them.
And this is merely a regurgitation of what I've said all along.
Which I think was my original thought on my 3rd or 4th post after returning to this board.
Peace?
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Chas
07/12/02 07:53 PM
66.187.6.93
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Also, I'd like to point out that if they're making pseudo-Battletech rules for the OCP figures, then that diminishes the "new kids's" motivation to buy BMR, Mapsheets and other suppliments from FanPro...not just the minis, from IWM.
Wrong. The existence of conversion rules would come out on the CBT side, as an adjunct to their miniatures rules.
And, simply have the conversions themselves would not be enough to allow someone to play CBT in its entirety. You'd still need a boxed set or BMR.
...they will not be buying their minis from IWM, thus no financial support will weaken IWM
You do have a point here. But people who buy PlasTech and proxy don't feed revenue to Iron Wind either. Minis in CBT are a luxury. Not a necessity.
And, in the foreseeable future at least, metal is the only way to custom paint your minis, without a lot of stripping of MW:DA figs which my damage them.
As for not buying books from FP. Actually, if they want to play CBT, or invest in universe source material for ANY of the ages of the BattleTech universe, it'll be coming from FanPro. About the only exception MIGHT be the novels.
So, if they have to buy FP-published materials, the money still goes to FP.
Remember, WizKids is not interested in producing games based on the publishing model. Hence the reason they have licensed off Shadowrun and CBT to FanPro.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
07/12/02 07:55 PM
66.187.6.93
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One doesn't spend 10 years in a FASA-run Universe and come out with that kind of naive expectation intact.
Hehehe. Sounds like we have an Assasin fan here.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 07:58 PM
216.24.108.137
|
ROFLMAO!!!!!!
Oh God it hurts!!!!!!
LOLLOLLOL
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
|
Chas
07/12/02 08:06 PM
66.187.6.93
|
What? No? Why not? Because that's the one little bit of power you can exercise here? The fact that you can withhold information as well as preventing it from occuring elsewhere?
E-mail Jordan C/O the CBT line developer. Randall Bills. His e-mail addy is on the CBT site. Simply request that your message be forwarded to Jordan.
As long as you're not deliberately rude and crude, it'll go through. These guys are NOT inaccessible.
Or have you already been told by your god what the "plan" is?
What was the term?
Ad hominem attack?
All we're saying is that we should welcome MW:DA players as fans of the same universe. You don't have to like them. You don't even have to respect them. Just acknowledge that they have a like that is similar to one of your own.
Stand together or hang separately (though not with quite the threatening connotations that could be attributed to it).
Quite simply, if you hate MW:DA and it's developers so much that you alienate MW:DA players, yes, MW:DA will suffer. But CBT will suffer as well. Because of a perception of elitism. And in the end, the entire BT Universe will be hurt by it.
THAT is what Peter meant when he said that we should hope that MW:DA does well. If MW:DA fails simply because it's boring and nobody wants to play it, CBT won't really be any worse off.
However, if MW:DA fails because of exceptional negative attitude from a group of CBT players evoking negative attitude in MW:DA players, then CBT will eventually be in trouble as well.
Because nobody likes playing their favorite games with people who are rude and negative all the time (there's another term, but the profanity rules....)
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/12/02 08:09 PM
66.187.6.93
|
I can't really argue based on your space limitations.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Durango
07/12/02 08:16 PM
24.164.47.91
|
In reply to:
D>> ...you can use Mage Tech Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in Battletech, but not vice versa?
Z>You've always been able to play Battletech with whatever you want, as it's the record sheets that have important unit information on them. The flow just isn't nearly as elegant going the other way, as it is the MW:DA figures themselves that have inherent stats.
Agreed. In my opinion, that makes it exclusive.
In reply to:
D>> ...plans are in the works to make rules so that you won't need to buy any resources from FanPro to play Battletech with your Mage Tech figures.
Z>Uh, I don't think it's quite like that. I may be wrong, but my perception was that Wizkids was going to let Fanpro write up CBT stats, and possibly put out CBT supplements for dark age era mechs and scenarios, for those that want to play out the Dark Age timeline with CBT rules. Scale conversion or not, you still need a BMR or equivalent to play with CBT rules. Again, it's Fanpro that puts those out. Thus, you can play CBT without Fanpro miniatures (using MW:DA figures instead). But you've always had this option (reference precious remarks about coins, legomen, etc). Some amount of the books are still needed to play.
If it's got CBT stats, then Fanpro is writing it, has been my impression. Even if it takes place within the time detailed by the MW:DA fiction.
This seems to be at variance with the things I have read on other boards. From what I hear, there will be no TROs for the Overpriced Cheap Plastic 'Mechs.
In reply to:
D>> These two things alone add up bad news for FanPro, and if WizKids gluts the market with Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures, then they become far cheaper than any superior quality metal figures you can buy...what's the motivation to switch to a different system? There will be none...which means that Battletech dies out.
Z>Legomen are far cheaper than mechs (and they even conveniently can be dismembered to represent damage). Heck, they are roughly even in the same scale. Yet, their presence on the market never had any effect that I know of on CBT. They are different games, appealing to different styles of play, whether or not they take place in the same universe or not. Warhammer and CAV mini sales never had much of an effect on BT. That's because they are a different sort of game, even though both of them have giant robots in them.
You've even said yourself that. Your own remarks evidence that this is the case with your own preferences.
They've never taken any of the Lego sets and made official pseudo-rules for them, before, either. Same about CAV or Warhammer minis. It's the idea that you won't need to buy real Battletech minis which is so threatening.
In reply to:
Z>It's a different sort of war game. It appeals to a different sort of play. The only connection is in the interest in the universe itself (which I honestly think can have a positive effect both ways).
The motivation to switch to a different system lies with the player. Are they the sort of player that digs a game like Battletech?
Or are they the type of player who has a limited budget? Let me ask you, how many people do you know who have the cash to blow setting up one collection of minis and then shelving it to set up another? I submit that the average player who has done his run on Mage Tech, is bored with it and looking for a new game, will not want to buy an entire new collection...and will be more likely to just get the pseudo-Battletech suppliment. (Thereby simply not even bothering with real Battletech minis. That's not good for FanPro.)
In reply to:
D>>*sigh* As we already established, unless your mini has a click base, you can't play the new game. (Remember? Sheesh, TRY to keep up...you're having a real problem with that!) This was deliberately included in the design specifically to make people buy the new minis, if they wanted to play Mage Tech.
Z>I disagree with your interpretation of their intentions with this design feature. The necessity of the combat dial comes from the game's close ties to the Mage Knight method of play. It was not to force CBT players to buy new minis, but instead to make the new game more familiar to the Mage Knight players and lure them into playing it.
The way I see it instead of their motivation for this system being something like:
"Let's make a new miniature based combat system that's incompatible with Battletech, so that we force all those CBT suckers to buy new figures to play"
It was probably more like this:
"We've got a great universe with giant killer robots. Let's come up with a game for it with Mage Knight like figures so that we can lure all those Mage Knight suckers into playing it"
You're a good person, Zippy. I think that you may be the type who wants to see the good in everyone. I'm a little more jaded.
Though your interpretation is probably closer to the mark than mine, the final product is very damning. The evidence is remains...it is impossible to play Mage Tech with my previous collection.
In reply to:
Z>The Mage Knight customer base is larger than the CBT customer base. I'm not so vain as to think they were targetting us instead of that larger group of buyers.
The fact that they might drag in some of the CBT players is just gravy.
I'm not so naiive to think that they were aiming at us, either. In fact, all signs point to the fact they'd rather be rid of us.
If you think that they're going to drag in more customers for FanPro is gravy, how do you feel about the possibility they may make CBT obsolete?
|
raven
07/12/02 08:24 PM
68.81.155.30
|
meanie
|
Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 08:25 PM
216.24.108.137
|
What I cannot get over is this....
No one is saying you HAVE to buy and play MW:DA.
No one is saying you HAVE to play Battletech.
I know I have raised several arguments counter to MW:DA, but that is my opinion. As is my opinion that the people who do not have enough imagination to continue the Battletech universe with their own stories are unimaginative trolls.
Personally I plan to play Battletech as long as I can, I forsee no reason why I should stop, and I do not see an army of Whiz Kids storming my house to tell me to stop.
My biggest gripe was that the game did not encourage imagination and creativity in tha you could not redesign the mechs to suit your desires nor could you easily paint/repaint them to match personal preference.
Everyone (including myself sometimes) likes to get on their soapbox and preach that their game, their companies, their opinions are better than someone else's. And I can understand that....sorta....but does it really take 222 replies to this thread, plus 144 replies to the I hate Classic Battletech to make each one of us realize that it is really each to his own? Cannot we realize that some people are going to play MW:DA or Battletech no matter what is said to try and sway them?
Hey like I said before, if a kid wants to learn battletech, I will show him, if wants to play MW:DA, I ain't gonna hound him al night to stop and play my game...the hounding and the griping just makes it go on forever...sorta like I am doing now
So in short...CAN''T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???? AND ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT BATTLETECH TOPICS WITHOUT TRYING TO PROVE THAT EITHER GAME IS BETTER.
Thank you for your time, Clan Wolverine now returns you to your regularly scheduled mud slinging on the forums.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
|
Durango
07/12/02 08:32 PM
24.164.47.91
|
In reply to:
KR>ROFLMAO!!!!!!
Oh God it hurts!!!!!!
LOLLOLLOL
(Takes bow.)
Thank you, you are too kind. I am glad that someone can see the humor in it. (Now aren't you glad you waded through that long stack of posts?)
It's even funnier if you picture JW as Monty Burns. (Or so I was told.)
Edited by Durango (07/12/02 08:35 PM)
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Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 08:43 PM
216.24.108.137
|
DOH!
"Smither's bring me my tupperware full of plastic mechs so that may look over them with glee, Money money money, each of is named Money Money Money Burns Jr."
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
|
Khan_Robinette
07/12/02 08:56 PM
216.24.108.137
|
BattleTech, Will Live on in the hearts of all who play it. As long as someone has the core rule book, It dosent die.
Shure there may not be any new products. Oh well We'll still be playing. The IS isn't a universe that dies easy. If your suggesting that once WK stops battleTech it dies, you are wrong. The Players then will be in total control. I'll be Playing BattleTech Even if WK drops it and it no longer has a home company. I'll carve figures myself if i have to, and the story will continue.
I'm upset that you feel battletech will die because of this, I'm Upset that any player would stop playing a game just because There aren't New Minis or Novels each month.
AMEN!!!!!
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
|
Acolyte
07/12/02 08:59 PM
142.179.27.248
|
Never could find a copy of "Aftermath". I'd love to see the rules set for it.
As to resources - I'd be surprised if you couldn't find some people that have them and would let you borrow. This is a branch off of the Open Source commnity, basically applying the same mindset to RL problems as opposed to computer problems. Try it and see!
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
|
Chas
07/12/02 08:59 PM
66.187.6.93
|
Put it this way. I can only give you information based on what is said in public. However, you SHOULD be able to glean tidbits here and there as I go along, even if I don't coime out and say it.
As for your "point". That WizKids wants to tank metal mini production from Iron Wind.
Ludicrous. They get very nice royalties from Iron Wind. Allowing you to play CBT with MW:DA figs is merely them giving you an option they need not have given you.
What does it cost to make that mini? Pennies? What do they sell it for? Dollars?
Why not e-mail them and ask how much tooling costs for a production run of a single mini type costs. I think you'd be surprised.
And, simply because they produce a figure for...oh...for the sake of argument...costs $0.50 to tool, stock, make, paint, package, and ship, they should only sell them for $0.51?
Of course not! They're a business. If they don't make a profit, they're OUT of business.
Again, if you want to see a cost to profit ratio, ask the company. I think you'll find that they're making nowhere near 1500% profit.
Yes. Metal figures cost more. On an equal basis. However, the size difference of the two scales makes direct comparison impossible. Go ask Iron Wind how much it would cost to dupe a couple of the MW:DA figs in metal at the same scale.
I can guarantee the mini will cost considerably more than $8.
If the level of detail can be duplicated at all. There are some things you can do in plastic that cannot be done in spin-cast metal.
As for your "value" argument.
Value is a subjective benchmark.
What may hold value for you, may be crap to someone else. And vice versa.
You're telling me that YOU THINK I'm wrong.
Yes. In some cases. In other cases, where your facts are messed up, I'm flat out telling you "You're wrong." There's no "I think" about it.
Funny, that's not the way it seems, especially when you add up the things which have been happening.
Your perceptions are not what we're discussing here. We're discussing ACTUALITY.
...you can use Mage Tech Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in Battletech, but not vice versa?
Correct. Because of the integral nature of the mini to MW:DA, importing minis from CBT would be detrimental.
Whereas minis in CBT are not even necessary. They're merely a luxury. You can make do with proxies, cardboard counters, etc. CBT isn't dependent on integrity of the model base the way MW:DA is.
...plans are in the works to make rules so that you won't need to buy any resources from FanPro to play Battletech with your Mage Tech figures.
Of course. Again, since minis are not integral to CBT, the MW:DA figs are little more than proxies. Their scale can be adjusted for in CBT minis rules and actual mechsheet representations can be created for them using CBT construction rules.
There are others on this board who would seem to agree with you.
And there are those who would agree with you.
But to me, if you're playing Battletech with dollies, then you're not really playing Battletech.
Thanks for damning all those who collect BT-related materials simply because they're BT-related.
Remove support from Mage Tech and give it to FanPro! Vote against the atrocity with your WALLET.
And this is, again, what I've been saying all along. If you don't like it, DON'T BUY IT!
Just stop ragging on those people who WOULD buy it. Because it hurts you and CBT just as much as it hurts the person and game you're ragging on.
How can you dispute my arguments when you haven't even addressed my point?
I have. You simply fail to allow yourself to accept my point of view.
Yes, yes, sarcasm and ad-hominem attacks.
And you have zero room to make such accusations.
I want to hear you admit that making pseudo-rules for Mage Tech figures is going to be bad for FanPro. Admit it.
Get ready for a long wait. I have said, nor will I say any such thing.
But they are not more "detailed". Detail is in the lines of a mini, in the intricate carvings of a piece of metal, which show things like access hatches and weapon ports.
Thank you for your self-serving definition. Unfortunately, detail means more than just lines carved into the exterior of a piece.
You can reproduce the ugly Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in metal, in the correct scale for about the same price as any other real Battletech mini.
The problem is, they can't be used for MW:DA then. And if you think that you can duplicate all those minis at the same price point, be my guest. Again, I recommend you talk with Iron Wind before making these assertions.
Kind of useless information
There's no such thing as useless information.
Admit it. We're two of a kind, on opposite sides of a coin.
Don't ever deign to compare yourself to me. You know nothing about me. Merely a few short lines on one individual point of interest.
Trust me, if I were like you, you'd have been banned from here as well. Instead of me taking the time and effort to try to discuss things with you.
No problem. It helped me to prove my point.
Talk about twisted logic. Telling someone "I don't know what I'm talking about." means you win the argument? O-kaaaay!
And then I figuratively shoved your face in the mud by pointing out that in fact, there WAS something from stopping me from playing metal figures in a Wizkids game
No you didn't. You made an inference that it did. Inference is not the same as fact. Nice try though.
...it's a different game because they designed it that way. They could have just as easily made it in the correct scale. (Blam...pieces of silly reason fall to the ground)
You should stop dropping reason that way. It's not nice. They didn't make iit the same scale to:
A: Differentiate the game.
B: Allow them to add more detail their their mechs
C: Control the distribution of the game, and thus maintain control over production.
...there's just as much detail in metal as in plastic...more in some instances (Blam! more silly reason pieces fall)
I never said there couldn't be. However, very few mechs have the level of detail given to them that most of the MW:DA pieces have.
...if they made them all with attached bases, how could you confuse them with the metal ones? (Blam!)
And how long would that have lasted until somebody forged them.
If FanPro wasn't producing royalties for Jordan, they'd be out of business...capise, pisano?
You apparently haven't got a clue who FanPro is. They're the maker of one of the largest RPG games in Germany. Even if they lost their CBT and SR licenses tomorrow, they'd still be in business the day after (and the year after, etc).
Again. Big blunders like this on your part are because you simply don't take the time to check your facts before making ludicrous statements.
As to the rest of your post. Let's just use the term "circular arguments". I won't even sully the term "logic".
You're essentially saying: "I want it this way because they could have made it this way, because they should have made it this way, because I want it this way."
That's not something you can argue. Because there's no sense in it. It all boils down to "You didn't get what you wanted.
B
O
O
H
O
O
Thanks for your attempts at conversation. Don't be too disappointed if I don't address you any further.
I think I've had my fill of banging my head off a brick wall.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/12/02 09:02 PM
66.187.6.93
|
*Slips KR a PPC-Steiner*
Drink that. It should numb the pain....and everything else.....
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Acolyte
07/12/02 09:07 PM
142.179.27.248
|
Hmmmm.... point taken. One thing I will add is that I'm in all likelyhood not the only person with this problem.
It's also not the only problem I have with MW:DA.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
|
Chas
07/12/02 09:07 PM
66.187.6.93
|
As for me. I plan to continue playing CBT.
I also plan to at least try out MW:DA once it hits the public (I already playtested for it, but games usually assume a different dynamic once you give it over to the public).
If I get bored with MW:DA, I'll drop it.
Just like dropped CAV.
Heck. I know of three people (two of whom were actually CAV developers) who no longer even play CAV.
As for needing X-hunded replies? Probably not. But I'm sure it was cathartic for at least some of them.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/12/02 09:10 PM
66.187.6.93
|
Correction.
As long as CBT is still played, wether anyone's publishing rulebooks for it or not, it's still alive.
Heck. Look at StarFleet Battles! I playtested for the captain's edition from 1987-1990. And the company producing it tanked after a couple years. Yet it survivied.
Heck, it survivied long enough for another company to pick it up and begin development again! Roughly 8 years.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
07/12/02 09:15 PM
66.187.6.93
|
One thing I will add is that I'm in all likelyhood not the only person with this problem.
Granted. But it's not as if your problem is ubiquitous.
Also, given the nature and limits of the game, a more crowded board is probably desireable for MW:DA.
It's also not the only problem I have with MW:DA.
Hey. Don't get me wrong. I have issues with it too.
The collectability thing is the main one. However, it shouldn't affect me, or many dilletente CBT players, because we're likely more concerned with the mini itself than the stats in the dial. Pretty much eradicating the value of rare figures for us.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Acolyte
07/12/02 09:20 PM
142.179.27.248
|
More crowded is desirable? Try it. Go ahead and put 48 'Mechs on 4 maps.
Ya, the collectability will all but decide my level of purchase. i.e. none.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
|
Chas
07/12/02 09:33 PM
66.187.6.93
|
Also, remember that MW:DA isn't hexmap limited.
So units are a bit more free in their choice of movement and placement.
As to the collectiability deciding your purchase level. Again, if you want merely to collect specific unit types (not specific figs at specific strengths), then the collectability is a non-issue.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Durango
07/12/02 09:40 PM
24.164.47.91
|
In reply to:
D>Scale is enough In fact, it's too much.
Problem is, if you're using miniatures rules, there's already scale conversions.
Again. It's not the minis that make CBT. It's the rules and the record sheets.
Again, I already commented on this.
In reply to:
D>What you seem to be ignoring is that it is more than just Karagin who says so.
C>So just because 100 (or 1000) people hold the same opinion, that makes them right?
No, it simply means that it's more than just Karagin who feels that way. If you recall, you said,
"Because YOU, Karagin say so right?"...which was patently incorrect. I just felt like taking the opportunity to point out that you were wrong. (Although, truth be known, I've done it so much now it's getting old...kinda like I'm always doing that.)
In reply to:
D>but there was a massive backlash at Wizkids when we all first heard of it
C>No? REALLY? It's not like I didn't report on it at GenCon 2001.
Really. I'm suprised that you don't remember...oh, but wait...this is an overreaction, a melodramatic ploy to be sarcastic. Heh. But then, because I was pointing out that you were wrong, I'm sure that this was just your petulant reaction to being wrong. Sux to be wrong, don't it?
In reply to:
D>We're out here, trying to stop the spin.
C>If you say so. It sounds more like disgruntled griping because the world doesn't work the way you think it ought to, to me.
I say so. And it sounds like you resent people would attempt to counter the spin, to me. Funny how that works, eh? More viewpoints than just your own out here. Suprise!
In reply to:
C>And "quit in disgust at the insult"?
It's a GAME for chrissakes. You know. A hobby. A passtime. It's not like it was your kid or something.
Well, no. Not to me, anyway. But there are people out there who had a GIANT investment in it. Why don't you go tell them? I haven't quit yet. But they have, and I've read letters from people like them on other boards, and in the e-Bay descriptions when they dumped their collections.
In reply to:
D>But I don't think that Battletech enjoys a single thing about it.
C>You're free to THINK whatever you want. Just as I'm free to tell you when you're wrong.
You're free to TELL me that you THINK I'm wrong. In fact I'm not, but feel free to tell me that you think I am. And accordingly, I'll feel free to correct your misguided thinking, or ignore you, as the case calls for.
In reply to:
D>Sure, lower barrier, but it will NOT have the result of putting kids into the Battletech market.
C>And you know this HOW?
Educated guess, based on gathered facts.
In reply to:
D>They could have, at first, but they didn't want to.
C>What would have been the point? It would then have merely been an adjunct to the CBT game. Take a look at what happened to other adjuncts.
BattleTroops
AeroTech
CityTech
Solaris7
BattleSpace
All of them pretty much BOMBED.
WK already had a basic game mechanic in click-base that was selling VERY well. Why sit there and slap together something else?
I'm aware of all this. I merely said that they COULD have done it that way.
In reply to:
D>My GOD, I have been saying this from the beginning. And I have been right, all along.
C>Don't mind the guffawing. That's just me laughing at your delusions of self-importance.
No, it's ok, go ahead. I've gotten used to your over-inflated egotism.
In reply to:
D>Yes, go ahead and gloat...the propoganda has disgusted and discouraged yet another previously loyal fan.
C>You're loyal?
Pfft.
Heh. Well, let's put it this way...I'm not advocating an opposing system which will snuff out my game.
Besides, you haven't discouraged me yet. Disgusted sure, but you haven't discouraged me.
In reply to:
D>Because they did everything in their power (short of giving up profits) to snuff us out.
C>Yeah. They're trying to snuff CBT. That's why they licensed it out for continued development and expansion.
Ah, there you go again, not reading what I'm typing! I said, "short of giving up profits"...the only reason FanPro was given any license was because it resulted in royalties...that'd be profits, you see?
PAY ATTENTION.
In reply to:
D>Nobody can see why, even though I point it out everywhere I go
C>So you run around going "It isn't CBT! It isn't CBT!" and be thanked for it?
Well thank you Captain Obvious, but we already KNEW that.
No, no! Thank YOU for that snide remark!
In reply to:
D>Ok what I just heard was "They're going to plagarize whatever they can use for this new pseudo-Battletech ruleset, but damned if they'll let you use your minis."
C>What plagiaism? They own the IP for the universe and game systems.
I notice that you addressed the plagarism part.
In reply to:
D>Which, of course, means that people who get started playing with Overpriced Cheap Plastic will have zero reason to buy anything from FanPro.
If they only want to play MW:DA? You're right.
If they begin getting drawn into the universe more and want to play a game with more depth? Then they get pointed to CBT.
Except why would they do that when they can play pseudo-rules with the OPC they already have? More likely, they'll be pointed to the new pseudo-rules by...WIZKIDS.
In reply to:
D>Sorry, FRIEND.
C>Well. First off, I'm NOT your friend. I don't know you. And, from your conduct here and elsewhere, I probably don't want to. So cut the smarmy BS.
Ooh! (fret, fret) What will I do? Chas doesn't want to be my friend (worry, worry)
Whatever.
In reply to:
D>I'm gonna stay right here, making sure people know what they're doing when they support this new farce.
C>If you behave yourself, you'll stay here. If you want to rant and rave and proclaim the end of the world, that's up to you. Have fun.
Well, judging by your conduct and the absolute lack of action, I'd say that this board grants far more lattitude than CBT...but then, Warner's little Napoleon complex can't really exert itself here, can it?
Instead of warning me indirectly about making sure I behave myself, perhaps you could examine your own conduct. As Warner might say: Luke 6:41-42 "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?"
Heh. The bible is such a powerful tool, used properly...but then, he knows that too. At least, one of his identities does.
|
Warner_Doles
07/12/02 09:42 PM
206.27.48.9
|
Man, that gets old fast.
That you would continue to lash out at me attack me at every opportunity. Even after I made my last statement to you on the incident you are using to fuel your hate and desire to make life miserable for me. Yes its getting old.
Interesting...is this the same e-mail addy your alter-identity uses?
Yes it is. There is no altered identity. Never has been. You've just seen my authoritative side because of the incident. But what you are doing here far exceeds anything I've seen in a long while. And this, these actions you've taken against me is what you call... "Christ like?"
Prove it.
Don't have to. "We will know them by their fruits." You can quote all the scripture you want Dave, it still doesn't remove the fact that the only one here that has been posting ugly and hateful remarks has not me when it concerns the both of us.
Hence... I turn my cheek...and again and again and again...
I will say this one more time in hopes that you will see and understand before everyone else...(including Scott who has made some similar thoughts: (put it to email Scott if you want to know).):
That I came down on you for your conduct and treatment of a member of the message board, an administrator and another human being that was trying to be helpful to you. Yet you saw it as an attack much like you are assuming that Chas is doing to you (Let me tell you, Chas has not even let go yet. He hasn't come even close. When he goes off neither you nor I or anyone else on this board stands a chance against his keen and dangerous tongue.), when he isn't. He is showing you great patience. I didn't show you patience because I have zero tolerance for people attacking others in the manner you did. You may not have seen that, but a great many did and my email box filled up because of it. Maybe I should have taken it to a PM but I didn't. That's my mistake and I was wrong for that. I can accept my mistakes and own up to them. I have never shied from that and never will.
I believe that if you put aside all the animosity and anger and truly look at my message you’ll understand that. And to show you that I just didn’t single you out, I did the same thing with a good friend of mine, Erich. My dressing down for his conduct. And you can read his reply to what I said here. Erich understood what I was saying and my intent.
Dave you want to hate and make know that you hate MechWarrior Darkage and let the world know it. Have at it. I’ll stand behind you and support your right to do so. I spent almost 15 years of my life defending this country so you could have that right. What I will not defend or stand is some using their opinion and voice to cause pain for someone just because they have that opinion. As I said to you, ‘[I] I will not put up with this from anyone on this message board JUST BECAUSE ITS YOUR OPINION. Because your opinion does not mean you can speak to people in the manner as you just did.[/I]’ I have said to many others. I hold that standard to myself. And when I screw up and say something I shouldn’t I am wrong. I believe I have tried my best to be restrained in the face of what you have been doing since your letters to me. Had I not, well…the old timers here on Sarna know what I am capable of being if I did. And I don’t plan on ever allowing that to happen.
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Durango
07/12/02 10:16 PM
24.164.47.91
|
quote] D> (To Warner) What? No? Why not? Because that's the one little bit of power you can exercise here? The fact that you can withhold information as well as preventing it from occuring elsewhere?
C>E-mail Jordan C/O the CBT line developer. Randall Bills. His e-mail addy is on the CBT site. Simply request that your message be forwarded to Jordan.
As long as you're not deliberately rude and crude, it'll go through. These guys are NOT inaccessible.
Honestly, if I thought it would do any good, I would.
You and I both know it's way too late to have any effect. But then, I'm sure that other people petitioned for the same things that Karagin and I have been talking about, right? And what good did it do? None. So the only thing left to do now is to complain.
In reply to:
D> (To Warner)Or have you already been told by your god what the "plan" is?
C>What was the term?
Ad hominem attack?
Yes, that's right! (See? You CAN learn!)
And as you said before, "You have no ground to stand on."
I know you're a mod. I know you could have banned me before now, and I have to admit, I'm suprised that you haven't. However, at this point, I'm pretty convinced that it's merely because arguing and making your points strokes your ego, and you like that.
I can make ad-hominem attacks just like you do. So what do you say we knock it off and try to be civil, without the implications of how much the other guy is a moron for his opinion?
In reply to:
C>All we're saying is that we should welcome MW:DA players as fans of the same universe. You don't have to like them. You don't even have to respect them. Just acknowledge that they have a like that is similar to one of your own.
Stand together or hang separately (though not with quite the threatening connotations that could be attributed to it).
Quite simply, if you hate MW:DA and it's developers so much that you alienate MW:DA players, yes, MW:DA will suffer. But CBT will suffer as well. Because of a perception of elitism. And in the end, the entire BT Universe will be hurt by it.
THAT is what Peter meant when he said that we should hope that MW:DA does well. If MW:DA fails simply because it's boring and nobody wants to play it, CBT won't really be any worse off.
However, if MW:DA fails because of exceptional negative attitude from a group of CBT players evoking negative attitude in MW:DA players, then CBT will eventually be in trouble as well.
Because nobody likes playing their favorite games with people who are rude and negative all the time (there's another term, but the profanity rules....)
You make a lot of sense, with all this.
I have said before, that I feel it would have been better to let Battletech fade out and die than to suffer a satire of Battletech which is played with plastic dolls.
I WANT TO SEE IT LIVE...but not as a cheap knock-off. CBT will never die, with the dedicated fans still there. But it will be reduced to a bunch of die-hards, if Wizkids projected plans take effect.
When you flood the market with cheap plastic knockoffs...when you create rules to use those knockoffs as if they were real minis...
Bah. I've said this, you won't read it, you refuse to acknowledge simple cause and effect.
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Durango
07/12/02 10:22 PM
24.164.47.91
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In reply to:
A> Never could find a copy of "Aftermath". I'd love to see the rules set for it.
I'd love to be able to show my copy to you. It really is a rocking game, so underplayed. (But then, that's FGU for you, isn't it? *sigh*)
(Y'all excuse me while I diverge from the topic at hand for a moment...)
I've played Aftermath! on and off since 1985...it was more popular during the Cold War. It has an absolutely realistic set of rules. You gotta love a game which provides a formula for determining weapon damage based on muzzle foot pounds.
(We now return you to "On Topic")
In reply to:
A>As to resources - I'd be surprised if you couldn't find some people that have them and would let you borrow. This is a branch off of the Open Source commnity, basically applying the same mindset to RL problems as opposed to computer problems. Try it and see!
That's great news! It's nice to hear that when Wizkids finally drives CBT into the background, there'll still be those out there who will have these resources.
Very encouraging.
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novakitty
07/12/02 10:31 PM
209.242.100.230
|
What was that old bit of advice...
Oh yes "You can either light a candle or curse the darkness"
Action does not insure results, but inaction insures failure.
meow
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Durango
07/13/02 12:05 AM
24.164.47.91
|
In reply to:
C>Put it this way. I can only give you information based on what is said in public. However, you SHOULD be able to glean tidbits here and there as I go along, even if I don't coime out and say it.
Erum...that's not what I was talking about...but ok.
In reply to:
C>As for your "point". That WizKids wants to tank metal mini production from Iron Wind.
Ludicrous. They get very nice royalties from Iron Wind. Allowing you to play CBT with MW:DA figs is merely them giving you an option they need not have given you.
The flip side of that observation is that the more assistance they give to those who want to play with their Overpriced Cheap Plastic pieces, the less incentive there is for people to buy metal figs. Your contradiction, while obvious, has consequences. Those being, less people buying metal figs means less profits for IWM. Eventually, they'll HAVE to fold. THEN, Wizkids will be the only one making "official" Mechwarrior figs...and that means MORE profits for them.
So you see, claiming that Wizkids doesn't want to see IWM "tank" is specious, because if IWM does tank, Wizkids stands to make more than they do having them for competition.
In reply to:
D>What does it cost to make that mini? Pennies? What do they sell it for? Dollars?
C>Why not e-mail them and ask how much tooling costs for a production run of a single mini type costs. I think you'd be surprised.
And, simply because they produce a figure for...oh...for the sake of argument...costs $0.50 to tool, stock, make, paint, package, and ship, they should only sell them for $0.51?
Of course not! They're a business. If they don't make a profit, they're OUT of business.
I'm not saying that they're not entitled to a profit. (That's un-American!) I'm saying that they are making FAR too much, and selling an inferior product to do it, AND they're using a collectible scheme WHILE they're doing it. I object to the WAY they make their profit, and the way they shuff off cheap plastic on kids.
In truth, it doesn't affect me a whit...I won't be buying any anyway. But I can't stand buy idly and let this c rap just flood the market, either. I must DO something. Kids are getting ripped off, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I will intercede on their behalf, as well. (Aren't I noble? Not.)
In reply to:
C>Again, if you want to see a cost to profit ratio, ask the company. I think you'll find that they're making nowhere near 1500% profit.
I don't expect them to reveal that information to me...not with any degree of truthfulness, anyway. (That's like asking a thief if he actually robs people. Of course he does! But he's not going to TELL you.) Well, Wizkids might tell you, you're in on it. But they certainly wouldn't give ME any further ammunition to use against them!
I can't believe you suggested that! What, do I really sound that gullible? (Don't answer that.)
In reply to:
C>Yes.
Ok, I asked you not to TELL me that!
In reply to:
C>Metal figures cost more. On an equal basis. However, the size difference of the two scales makes direct comparison impossible. Go ask Iron Wind how much it would cost to dupe a couple of the MW:DA figs in metal at the same scale.
I can guarantee the mini will cost considerably more than $8.
Perhaps on an initial run. Further duplication would drop the price considerably. (A simple concept in economics.) But I still don't see the point; why are we arguing about this again?
Lessee...you said:
"As to overpriced. Look at the prices of your metal minis again. And look at what you get in a starter and a booster for MW:DA. Then tell me about "overpriced"
Then I said:
"At least the metal figures cost more to make and that's why you pay slightly more...but then you get what you pay for."
Which you then replied how the metal figures cost more, if you make them the same size as Mage Tech figures. Which I agree, it would...but that's not the scale I was talking about. I don't play in that scale, and if Wizkids had been savvy enough to make the new minis in metal, they wouldn't have made them that scale either. (Like you said, too expensive.)
What a monstrosity it would be! A heavy one, at that. Kind of like the museum pieces. THAT would be cool. (Durango relishes the concept)
OMG...I have a metal fetish. Wow, I never realized that before now. (Hmm...I don't know about this "venting" being cathartic, but definitely is causing introspection.)
(Realizes topic is wandering)
ANYWAY...you say that your Starter pack is a cheap way to start an army, I say that the metal figs can be just as cheap, if not cheaper. Not to mention they are of higher quality.
In reply to:
C>If the level of detail can be duplicated at all. There are some things you can do in plastic that cannot be done in spin-cast metal.
You mean superfluous detail, like Dragon's Head claws? Other useless "neato" parts which are going to fall off and get lost, anyway?
In reply to:
C>As for your "value" argument.
Value is a subjective benchmark.
What may hold value for you, may be crap to someone else. And vice versa.
If value were so subjective, as to be useless as a metric, then a great deal of things would simply not sell...and some things would sell no matter what. I think you're trying to discount it's importance simply because it's a major chunk of my point. So...stop that.
In reply to:
C>You're telling me that YOU THINK I'm wrong.
C>Yes. In some cases. In other cases, where your facts are messed up, I'm flat out telling you "You're wrong." There's no "I think" about it.
And yet, I'm still not wrong. You must not be doing something right. Perhaps you need to spin reality a little more? (That seems to be the MO for Wizkids...)
In reply to:
C>CBT will continue...Wizkids doesn't want to poison IWM & CBT...
D>Funny, that's not the way it seems, especially when you add up the things which have been happening.
C>Your perceptions are not what we're discussing here. We're discussing ACTUALITY.
I covered this above.
In reply to:
D>...you can use Mage Tech Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in Battletech, but not vice versa?
Correct. Because of the integral nature of the mini to MW:DA, importing minis from CBT would be detrimental.
Whereas minis in CBT are not even necessary. They're merely a luxury. You can make do with proxies, cardboard counters, etc. CBT isn't dependent on integrity of the model base the way MW:DA is.
...plans are in the works to make rules so that you won't need to buy any resources from FanPro to play Battletech with your Mage Tech figures.
Of course. Again, since minis are not integral to CBT, the MW:DA figs are little more than proxies. Their scale can be adjusted for in CBT minis rules and actual mechsheet representations can be created for them using CBT construction rules.
OK, you responded to what I typed, but you didn't bother to stop and take in the implications. If you stop, and actually consider them together, you'll see what I was on about. Those two together spell disaster for real Battletech, done with metal minis.
In reply to:
D>There are others on this board who would seem to agree with you.
C>And there are those who would agree with you.
(Does double-take) Ah, thanks. Is it just me or was that a somewhat formulaic response?
In reply to:
D> But to me, if you're playing Battletech with dollies, then you're not really playing Battletech.
Thanks for damning all those who collect BT-related materials simply because they're BT-related.
Sorry, but like yourself, I call 'em like I see 'em. If you play with plastic figurines that look like dolls, you ARE playing with dolls. I say that about any dolls, 'Mecha or not. I have a bud who collects "Death angel" (Amorla-re-on, or something like that) action figures, and I give him a hard time about his dolls, too. He takes it in stride.
Dolls are dolls, dude.
In reply to:
D>Remove support from Mage Tech and give it to FanPro! Vote against the atrocity with your WALLET.
C>And this is, again, what I've been saying all along. If you don't like it, DON'T BUY IT!
Just stop ragging on those people who WOULD buy it. Because it hurts you and CBT just as much as it hurts the person and game you're ragging on.
Ok, the advice to "vote with your wallet" was to those who don't have enough motivation to do anything more than just vote with your wallets. To those of you who feel that's not enough, I encourage you to talk to your local congressmen & representatives, and explain that Wizkids Collectible scheme is little more than legalized gambling for kids. They will answer, they answered me. Also, if you get the chance, explain to the fund providers (PARENTS) what a rip-off this game is. With your help, we'll snuff this thing out before it gets going.
But hey, amigo, I'm glad we can agree about the simpler course of action.
In reply to:
D>How can you dispute my arguments when you haven't even addressed my point?
C>I have. You simply fail to allow yourself to accept my point of view.
Really? Perhaps then, you can prove that you have, by paraphrasing my point.
In reply to:
D>Yes, yes, sarcasm and ad-hominem attacks.
C>And you have zero room to make such accusations.
Correct, good sir! Are we ready to knock it off? Or should we continue the sniping?
In reply to:
D>I want to hear you admit that making pseudo-rules for Mage Tech figures is going to be bad for FanPro. Admit it.
C>Get ready for a long wait. I have said, nor will I say any such thing.
(Settles in for a long wait.) It's ok, I have the time. Because you won't say it now doesn't mean that you won't admit it after FanPro stops making real Battletech materials, or after IWM folds. And you will. Because they will.
In reply to:
D>But they are not more "detailed". Detail is in the lines of a mini, in the intricate carvings of a piece of metal, which show things like access hatches and weapon ports.
C>Thank you for your self-serving definition. Unfortunately, detail means more than just lines carved into the exterior of a piece.
Detail: a small part; item (Webster's dictionary, closest definition to what we're talking about)
Only by the most literal definition of "detail" can you be right. I prefer the more figurative (no pun intended, though the word does seem appropriate) definition. In any case, I'm still right, despite your insulting use of the expression "self-serving".
In reply to:
D>You can reproduce the ugly Overpriced Cheap Plastic Posable Action Figures in metal, in the correct scale for about the same price as any other real Battletech mini.
C>The problem is, they can't be used for MW:DA then. And if you think that you can duplicate all those minis at the same price point, be my guest. Again, I recommend you talk with Iron Wind before making these assertions.
It's academic really. I merely said that to refute your claim that you couldn't. The fact that you practically concede the point is good enough for me.
In reply to:
D>Kind of useless information
C>There's no such thing as useless information.
Especially when it's marketing hype, eh?
In reply to:
D>Admit it. We're two of a kind, on opposite sides of a coin.
C>Don't ever deign to compare yourself to me. You know nothing about me. Merely a few short lines on one individual point of interest.
Trust me, if I were like you, you'd have been banned from here as well. Instead of me taking the time and effort to try to discuss things with you.
Oooh! He brings up THE BAN! I think I struck a nerve, there, eh? Yeah, we share traits. You and I both love to be right, and to argue until dawn. Still think we're dissimilar?
In reply to:
D> No problem. It helped me to prove my point.
C>Talk about twisted logic. Telling someone "I don't know what I'm talking about." means you win the argument? O-kaaaay!
Well, lessee...you said:
"Part of the reason for [the jump in the story line] was, and is, that the current story line had more or less written itself into a corner. Novels were beginning to fall, more or less, into the same general outline as the story line progressed. And while many people would willingly pay big bucks to see Victor Davion come, see, and conquer until the end of time, it was getting old. Both from a readership standpoint, and from the standpoint of the authors."
And I added,
"Plus, Mike was feeling a little put out that he wasn't getting enough money. Not to mention that the previous publishers were cramping his style by limiting the number of pages per novel. He said so himself, in his letter to the masses..."don't diss me, there's money to be made here"..."just go sell your cheeseburger heartattacks and buy this new game [implied "you livin'-in-your-parent's-basement, workin-at-the-Burgershack-geeks, I make more money than you'll ever SEE in your lifetimes, so just shutup, losers"]"
To which you replied:
"And I'd like to know exactly how much experience you've had working in the business as an author. It'd make your arguments on this much stronger than they are."
And I said back:
"I don't have to have any experience, everything I said can be gleaned from reading Mike's own words. I rest on HIS case."
And you responded:
"Thanks for at least admitting this."
Meaning, "Thanks for admitting that you don't have to have any experience, and that everything you printed came from Mike's own words."
And I responded, "No problem. It helped me to make my case, and thanks for being so civil about loosing this particular point." I never said I don't know what I'm talking about, I said I didn't have to, since Mike already made my case for me. And you thanked me for it.
PAY ATTENTION.
In reply to:
D>And then I figuratively shoved your face in the mud by pointing out that in fact, there WAS something from stopping me from playing metal figures in a Wizkids game
C>No you didn't. You made an inference that it did. Inference is not the same as fact. Nice try though.
Oh, stop. Semantics. You lost that point. Just be a man about having mud all over your face.
In reply to:
D>...it's a different game because they designed it that way. They could have just as easily made it in the correct scale. (Blam...pieces of silly reason fall to the ground)
C>You should stop dropping reason that way. It's not nice. They didn't make iit the same scale to:
A: Differentiate the game.
B: Allow them to add more detail their their mechs
C: Control the distribution of the game, and thus maintain control over production.
Ah, finally you come up with some reasonable logic. That's a nice change, by the way, I applaud you.
But I'm still right. They COULD have made it the correct scale. (Unless you'd like to change the laws of physics, and make it physically impossible for them to have done that, I'm still right.)
In reply to:
D>...there's just as much detail in metal as in plastic...more in some instances (Blam! more silly reason pieces fall)
C>I never said there couldn't be. However, very few mechs have the level of detail given to them that most of the MW:DA pieces have.
Let's see what you said: "Maybe because they wanted to up the scale to provide more details in the minis than was possible at the CBT scale."
Hmm...sure sounds like you were implying that there couldn't be. (That word "possible" kind of makes it sound that way.) But, I'll let you have this one. Other people can read and decide for themselves. If ANYONE is still reading this.
In reply to:
D>...if they made them all with attached bases, how could you confuse them with the metal ones? (Blam!)
C>And how long would that have lasted until somebody forged them.
And this couldn't or isn't going to happen anyway? At any rate we were talking about during production...not aftermarket. Just concede the point.
In reply to:
D>If FanPro wasn't producing royalties for Jordan, they'd be out of business...capise, pisano?
You apparently haven't got a clue who FanPro is. They're the maker of one of the largest RPG games in Germany. Even if they lost their CBT and SR licenses tomorrow, they'd still be in business the day after (and the year after, etc).
Again. Big blunders like this on your part are because you simply don't take the time to check your facts before making ludicrous statements.
Of course, you knew what I meant, but you insist on attempting to sharpshoot me merely to make your point. But just incase you weren't actually aware of what you meant, I meant "out of the business of making CBT materials". Sheesh. If it weren't for semantics, you'd have no case at all!
In reply to:
C>As to the rest of your post. Let's just use the term "circular arguments". I won't even sully the term "logic".
You're essentially saying: "I want it this way because they could have made it this way, because they should have made it this way, because I want it this way."
Ho ho, so you CAN'T answer my questions, and this is the way you dodge having to!
For those of you who don't want to backtrack I answered Chas' questions, and asked him to answer mine. I also asked him to answer Karagins questions, and I outright predicted that he would attempt to dodge them.
And look at this, he summarily dismisses them and refuses to answer them. WHAT A SUPRISE!
Massive loss of points, Chas! You are really suffering here!
In reply to:
C>That's not something you can argue. Because there's no sense in it. It all boils down to "You didn't get what you wanted.
It is true, I didn't get what I wanted. But that doesn't mean there's nothing I can do about it.
In reply to:
C>Thanks for your attempts at conversation. Don't be too disappointed if I don't address you any further.
Hah! Running away when I point out that you can't answer my questions? Suffering HORRIBLY! COLOSSAL loss of integrity points!
In reply to:
C>I think I've had my fill of banging my head off a brick wall.
I imagine that being unable to assail my points would do that to you. But it's ok. I dismiss you. Begone. Run back to your Wizkids Mouthpiece website.
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Chas
07/13/02 01:13 AM
66.187.6.93
|
That's Durango's main problem. He enjoys cursing the darkness too much to be bothered to strike a match.
He'd rather argue around a point (basically repeating himself the entire way and avoiding straight answers). Then, when people throw their hands up in disgust at the sheer nugacity of it, he throws up his hands and proclaims "victory".
Ah well. Every group has a few like him.
It's usually best just to humor them. Eventually they'll just go away.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Acolyte
07/13/02 01:54 AM
142.179.27.248
|
How do you figure? Did they change their mind and actually let you see what you're buying before you buy it?
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Khan_Robinette
07/13/02 08:19 AM
216.24.109.78
|
Yeah Iguess some people just need a little ego boost now and then.
I may as well admit that my wife has convinced me to try MW:DA at least for her sake and the sake of th eother girls in the group who think Battletech has too many equations.
HOWEVER
I am not stopping the old game. Like I told her, once or twice, but she buys the minis I figure that was fair...I bough all of the minis that she uses for Battletech.
"Teach me and I'll teach you
If you need a hand I'll give you two
Respect me and I'll respect you
Disrespect me and I will destroy you"
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Chas
07/13/02 12:33 PM
66.187.6.89
|
In the secondary market, you're going to have roughly 4 grades of minis.
Green - 1 chevron
Veteran - 2 chevrons
Elite - 3 chevrons
Unique - Named
You'll also have varying levels of common and uncommon in each. Pretty much every piece should be available in more than one ranking.
In this case, if you're just interested in the mini type and using it for CBT or saving it for display (say a Spider), then you can collect one of the more common minis, in the secondary market, and not have to worry about paying umpty-bajillion dollars for some super-rare named figure.
If you're playing MW:DA, and you want more powerful figures, then you're going to have to pay whatever the market's going rate is for such minis.
Also, at the seminar, they were asked about unit packs. With all the particular pieces from a given faction/unit. It didn't go over well for MK, but BT's different dynamic (and the fact that it was suggested they be released at the same time the boosters are released) will make it easier to collect specific units without resorting to the secondary market.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Durango
07/13/02 01:45 PM
24.164.47.91
|
In reply to:
W> (turns other cheek, ad nauseum)
D> Man, that gets old fast.
W>That you would continue to lash out at me attack me at every opportunity. Even after I made my last statement to you on the incident you are using to fuel your hate and desire to make life miserable for me. Yes its getting old.
Welp. I never knew you before the day you wrote me that nasty note. Or one of your other personalities did, the Authoritative personality. Besides, you KNEW your board was not the only board! How could you not realize that I would take my case elsewhere? Did you think you could (or order someone else to) press that little BAN button and I'd simply dissapear from reality?
What did you expect? Honestly, Warner, what did you expect? I'm not one of your Privates/Sailors/Airmen, I'm not one of your kids and I'm not subject to YOUR RULE, except in your little domain...which I'm not in any more.
In reply to:
D>Interesting...is this the same e-mail addy your alter-identity uses?
W>Yes it is. There is no altered identity. Never has been. You've just seen my authoritative side because of the incident. But what you are doing here far exceeds anything I've seen in a long while. And this, these actions you've taken against me is what you call... "Christ like?"
Ok, I'm here, "getting real" with you. I didn't even KNOW you before you flamed me. Or any of your...whatever, alternate personnas. Maybe you're not really a schizophrenic, or a spit personality. But when you lash me out of one side of your mouth and then come out all high & mighty from the other (and blame ME that YOU had your DAUGHTER read that flame I wrote back), you sure sound like there's more than one person in there...or using your account.
I've counted THREE so far: Authoritative Warner, Pious Warner, and Adolescent Warner (the one who acted like Death Coyote). This one I'm dealing with right now sounds like a bit of Pious and Authoritative Warner, is this the real you?
As far as my actions against you...yes, I have been persistent. I admit it. But I don't feel particularly guilty about it, and you're right about another item, they are certainly NOT "Christ like". I will pay for that, but not to you. I did apologise to your family and specifically your daughter, as you requested...even though it wasn't ME who forced her to read that letter. Don't bring my relationship with God into it, just because you wear yours on your sleeve, just below that other "badge of authority" you're so fond of showing off (the spot where the stripes were on your shoulder).
Dude, I don't know you. All I see is what you demonstrate, and the hypocracy you preach. You condemn me for my ad-hominem attacks, and you spare Chas...why? You don't see the double standard?
If you say, "Well, David, you started it first", then I guess the adolescent Warner is the one who maintains control. (And besides, my name is DAVE.)
In reply to:
D>Prove it. Let me back on to CBT.
Don't have to. "We will know them by their fruits." You can quote all the scripture you want Dave, it still doesn't remove the fact that the only one here that has been posting ugly and hateful remarks has not me when it concerns the both of us.
Hence... I turn my cheek...and again and again and again...
No, you don't have to prove anything. All you have to do is play the role of the oppressed, the accused, the abused and maligned, and I play right into your hands by responding to your letter.
But your actions belie your words, if you really were the forgiving type, you'd find a way to get me back on to CBT. Especially if I "promised to behave"...except, I'm not really interested in being there any more, I can't deal with the level of oppression, accusation, abuse and malignment from the MODS.
Anyone who says anything about Wizkids (or JW) NOT good, not approbate, insufficiently reverent, gets banned. Well, that's NOT my opinion. And so I was squeltched. I already showed the entire conversation, Warner...even you admit that you had some culpability in this scenario. Just because I talked about JW's CUPIDITY...because I said he was in it for the money, period...I was banned. And that's censorship, Warner. And you know it.
In reply to:
W>I will say this one more time in hopes that you will see and understand before everyone else...(including Scott who has made some similar thoughts: (put it to email Scott if you want to know).):
That I came down on you for your conduct and treatment of a member of the message board, an administrator and another human being that was trying to be helpful to you. Yet you saw it as an attack much like you are assuming that Chas is doing to you, when he isn't. He is showing you great patience. I didn't show you patience because I have zero tolerance for people attacking others in the manner you did. You may not have seen that, but a great many did and my email box filled up because of it. Maybe I should have taken it to a PM but I didn't. That's my mistake and I was wrong for that. I can accept my mistakes and own up to them. I have never shied from that and never will.
Ok, I tried to examine your links, I got:
We cannot proceed.
We encountered a problem. The reason reported was:
Access Denied.
...which is funny, way to re-inforce the fact that you banned me. Ha, ha. But I ain't smilin' and I'm not laughing.
Listen. When you ban someone for expressing an OPINION, you are excercising CENSORSHIP. I did not INSULT JW. I did not INSULT Peter Smith. The WORST you can accuse me of is being confrontational, and as for your charge of Trolling, I didn't start new threads, I replied to existing ones, with my opinions. (Expressed factually, admittedly, but MY OPINIONS.) Did you see Chas insulting people, being aggressive and clarifying that it was merely his "opinion"? But you ignored him and went after Karagin and me!
In reply to:
W>I believe that if you put aside all the animosity and anger and truly look at my message you’ll understand that. And to show you that I just didn’t single you out, I did the same thing with a good friend of mine, Erich. My dressing down for his conduct. And you can read his reply to what I said here. Erich understood what I was saying and my intent.
Ok, wait. You say you don't act hypocritical? You say you have "zero tolerance", but you look the other way when Chas does it? Then you say you treat all people fairly, even your "friends"?
Dude, I don't believe you! But you don't have to PROVE ANYTHING, do you? I bet Erich, whoever he is, simply did not have the balls to stand up to you! Or, he *IS* a good friend and doesn't want to TELL you how much of a mini-despot you act like, and simply backed down. Ask him sometime.
I think if you TRULY examine yourself, you will see EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I don't expect you to, but...try.
In reply to:
W>Dave you want to hate and make known that you hate MechWarrior Darkage and let the world know it. Have at it. I’ll stand behind you and support your right to do so. I spent almost 15 years of my life defending this country so you could have that right. What I will not defend or stand is some using their opinion and voice to cause pain for someone just because they have that opinion. As I said to you, ‘ I will not put up with this from anyone on this message board JUST BECAUSE ITS YOUR OPINION. Because your opinion does not mean you can speak to people in the manner as you just did.’ I have said to many others. I hold that standard to myself. And when I screw up and say something I shouldn’t I am wrong.
IF that were true. IF it were true, that I spoke WRONGLY to Peter Smith, then why did I not get a warning, FROM HIM, instead of summarily banned? I know why, it's because I am anti-Wizkids. You say you'll defend that right, but your ACTIONS speak louder than your words. I was BANNED. That's the bottom line, isn't it Warner?
You won't put up with anyone's opinion, but you turn a blind eye to Chas when he uses that excuse...not only that, you condemn Karagin and I while condoning him!
How can you say that's not hypocritical?
In reply to:
W> I believe I have tried my best to be restrained in the face of what you have been doing since your letters to me. Had I not, well…the old timers here on Sarna know what I am capable of being if I did. And I don’t plan on ever allowing that to happen.
Ok, any old-timers want to tell me what he's capable of? Since he won't display it any more?
In reply to:
W>(Let me tell you, Chas has not even let go yet. He hasn't come even close. When he goes off neither you nor I or anyone else on this board stands a chance against his keen and dangerous tongue.)
Yes, I know he hasn't been expending any, as I seem to just brush off most of what he says, effortlessly. I'm not even impressed yet. But I guess I don't have to worry about that, as he has already run away from three direct questions...I guess I'm LUCKY that he didn't use his "keen and dangerous tongue" on me, eh?
But then, my "conspiracy theory" is that you both were told not to let any Anti-Mage Tech messages go on for too long...while at the same time, being told to praise it as much as possible. Which I imagine galls him, that he has to give up on the thread or risk anti-Mage Tech rhetoric.
By the way, who is Scott?
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Warner_Doles
07/13/02 03:36 PM
206.27.48.9
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Dave... You win. You want to spread vicious lies about me, have at it. One day though, we will meet and I will explain to you how wrong you are and when I am done you will see that.
You want to use this message board for your own little ground to pollute with the likes of Eric Johson and the others that think like you do, have at it.
Dave my opinion about you is up on my site have a look if you please so you know what I truly think about you. Since I would never waste my friends bandwidth for that here anyway. Go here and read it for yourself.
I have tried to make amends but I see that you, one who claims to be a Brother in Christ, does not have the ability to forgive. Since you want to use scripture to make me look bad and state your case, I offer to Romans 12: 9 - 21 to read. If that does not help you, then you must read Galatians 5: 25 - 26 and if that doesn't give you a wake up call, then read 1 John 2: 11 - 24.
I tried to make amends. I wanted to make amends. Yet you spit in my face. So I'll turn this over to the Lord and let him deal with you. There is nothing there for me to worry about, as I will dust off my feet and walk away from you secure in the knowledge that my heart is right and clear. I have done as instructed by Christ. Now you have to answer for it to the your Lord.
One last thing... If you have a problem with Chas you need to take it up with an Administrator... that is Nic. But since he has already read through most of this iirc he has had no problem with Chas. Oh and while you are attacking Chas with your wit and hate, if Chas got tried of all of this and you, he could simply pull the plug and all of this would simply go away. He has that kind of power because the server is HIS domain.
Good by Dave. I hope that one day you will see that you allowed hate to rule your heart. Anything else you want to say to me send me an email please. I don't want to waste Nic's bandwidth with the kind of things YOU have been spewing out. I wonder what your children will think about your conduct here.. I bet they would be proud!
God Bless you Dave Staples I certainly hope that he will open your eyes. Good Bye.
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Acolyte
07/13/02 04:10 PM
142.179.27.248
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Secondary market huh? In other words: no I will not be able to see what I'm buying. I have to let someone else take the risk and, if they don't want it, buy it from them.
I do like the unit pack idea. How much would the Kell Hounds cost?
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Greyslayer
07/13/02 07:53 PM
63.12.141.171
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'By the way, who is Scott?'
That would be me, probably.
I have suggested to you in private and public that you should get over it. They only seem to want 'warm and fuzzies' over there, and if that is the case then why continue to bang your head against the wall?
Warner does know where I stand on MW:DA (or at least I think he does), he should also know that I refuse to post or even visit CBT. Also at this time he should also know that I still follow (or at least try to follow one of HIS rules .... Do not bring things that happen on other boards HERE).
Until the past week or so we hadn't had a serious flame war in awhile. It didn't stop us from 'discussing battletech' with opposing viewpoints it just lacked the certain elements that have caused flame wars in the past.
Get over it, bury it or just plain swallow your pride and move on. Things should improve once you have done this.
Greyslayer ... aka Scott
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PeterSmith
07/13/02 11:31 PM
64.108.202.124
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"I have to let someone else take the risk and, if they don't want it, buy it from them."
Something like that.
If you ever have gone into a game shop, or visited a convention, and seen (for example) Magic cards being sold individually, that's an example of the secondary market. I've seen the same thing with Mage Knight figures at every convention I've been to, ever since its introduction.
"I do like the unit pack idea. How much would the Kell Hounds cost?"
I like the idea too. But I think they're still kicking the idea around, have not set a price yet.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Chas
07/14/02 12:17 AM
66.187.6.89
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And, on that cheerful note
Let's just close the thread.
It's already gone on WAAAY longer than it probably should have.
It's already gone to 250+ posts? I think the subject of my little trifle of a report is pretty much hashed-over to death.
Thanks for the interest guys.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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